I thought I read that it would be at Gencon, for sale. So that's early August. Hope they don't pull a Dark Heracy with this one. Dark Heracy, the only RPG both sold out, and canceled prior to official release date.
For those interested, the Gen Con event schedule is now live. At glance, it looks like Ulissess Spiele is running four preview games for Wrath & Glory a day. At present, it looks like the best way to find the game is to set the search filters to "Host Ulisess Spiele" and "Category: Role Playing Games". The event names and descriptions are below.
One Foot in the Mausoleum - In the grim darkness of the far future, a disgraced Imperial noble died under suspicious circumstances & was hurriedly interred on the mortuary moon of Daedalon. According to the Rogue Trader Jakel Varonius, the noble died shortly after acquiring a mysterious alien relic. Your mission is to get to the mausoleum, recover the artifact, and return with it in secret. The stakes are high & time is short – others have already begun the hunt, both for you & the artifact.
The Reach - In the grim darkness of the far future, an enemy of the Imperium is seeking to destabilize a loyal system of worlds. The trusted aide of a tyrannical Astra Militarum commander—her one moderating influence—has been abducted. Your warband, and by extension, the Rogue Trader whom is your patron, are being blamed. You must locate and extract the hostage alive before open hostilities break out amongst the threatened worlds. Your lives—and the reputation of a Rogue Trader dynasty—depend on it.
Each game has room for six players and is four hours long. Tickets are four dollars a piece.
Insurgency Walker wrote: I thought I read that it would be at Gencon, for sale. So that's early August. Hope they don't pull a Dark Heracy with this one. Dark Heracy, the only RPG both sold out, and canceled prior to official release date.
Gotta love GW. <REMOVED> While claiming their customers love them for it.
So, GenGon get a cease and desist order for advertising GW games yet, or is that still working through GW legal?
I think GW put the legal team on retainer and dumped the savings into specialist games, and plastic sisters. So the game might not be for sale by gencon, but will be played at Gencon.
The first preview games are going to be held at Origins, there is a Free RPG Day adventure after that, and then the game itself will most likely have a release at Gen Con.
Elbows wrote: Yeah the stream really killed my interest. Looks clunky and waaaay too gamey for an RPG that I'd like to play.
As someone who owns all the FFGRPG/ Pathfinder books, I feel the stream showed us a functioning, simple RPG in comparison to some of those earlier systems. Which TBH, is all I think most people want out of a system. I am fairly interested to see what kind of customization options there are, but for now the game looks like its what it was billed as.
Elbows wrote: Yeah the stream really killed my interest. Looks clunky and waaaay too gamey for an RPG that I'd like to play.
So I tried just now taking a peek at the stream and it says you have to be subscribed to watch it? Doesn't a subscripiton typically require money? If so, did they lock it behind a paywall for anyone who couldn't catch it live during the middle of a work day? I'm not too familiar with twitch but, assuming that's correct, is that normal for twitch?
Elbows wrote: Yeah the stream really killed my interest. Looks clunky and waaaay too gamey for an RPG that I'd like to play.
So I tried just now taking a peek at the stream and it says you have to be subscribed to watch it? Doesn't a subscripiton typically require money? If so, did they lock it behind a paywall for anyone who couldn't catch it live during the middle of a work day? I'm not too familiar with twitch but, assuming that's correct, is that normal for twitch?
It varies from channel to channel, but yes, GW channel is free live, but you have to subscribe to watch replays. If you have Amazon Prime you can get one free subscription a month though.
Elbows wrote: Yeah the stream really killed my interest. Looks clunky and waaaay too gamey for an RPG that I'd like to play.
So I tried just now taking a peek at the stream and it says you have to be subscribed to watch it? Doesn't a subscripiton typically require money? If so, did they lock it behind a paywall for anyone who couldn't catch it live during the middle of a work day? I'm not too familiar with twitch but, assuming that's correct, is that normal for twitch?
Elbows wrote: Yeah the stream really killed my interest. Looks clunky and waaaay too gamey for an RPG that I'd like to play.
So I tried just now taking a peek at the stream and it says you have to be subscribed to watch it? Doesn't a subscripiton typically require money? If so, did they lock it behind a paywall for anyone who couldn't catch it live during the middle of a work day? I'm not too familiar with twitch but, assuming that's correct, is that normal for twitch?
I’ve only seen a little but the thing I’m not a fan of so far is the cards for criticals, if I’m understanding that right. It feels a little too random rather than being roleplay to me.
I quite like the rest though. I’m so bored of D20 systems and I know the D10 system confused a few of my group. I’m intrigued to see the rest later. It mostly just looks like a simpler version of Dark Heresy with more character options which seems great
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note, does anyone think big name characters are going to be in this? Primarchs or other major leaders for main factions for example? Dudes like Guilliman or Mortarion and such or even Cowl. As NPC's of course
Are dice pool mechanics in an RPG as bad as they seem?
Are we going to end up with tons of dice as we level up, or unclear situations for average people (eg: is a higher TN or less dice harder? Discerning what dice/TN ratio creates what chance of success)
I am a bit entry level when it comes to RPG's, and have only played dice pools in board games, but it doesn't seem to be a good system for balancing something yourself on the fly.
How does one go about getting the Free RPG Day stuff? Is it something you can sign up for and get sent, or do you have to acquire it from a store?
And if it's the latter, would someone in the UK be willing to pick up a copy for me, as I don't have any kind of store nearby? I'd of course be willing to cover the cost of postage.
Grinshanks wrote: Are dice pool mechanics in an RPG as bad as they seem?
Are we going to end up with tons of dice as we level up, or unclear situations for average people (eg: is a higher TN or less dice harder? Discerning what dice/TN ratio creates what chance of success)
I am a bit entry level when it comes to RPG's, and have only played dice pools in board games, but it doesn't seem to be a good system for balancing something yourself on the fly.
There's a fair few numbers of these sorts of types. It really depends on the system you are playing so it's hard to differentiate. Though one of the main benefits tends to come through specializing much more easily.
godardc wrote: I don't know, this rpg isn't appealing to me. Is here someone here going to buy it ?
My buddies and I loved the 40k universe, but did not like the rules/mechanics of the Dark Heresy line of games.
So we're looking forward to playing this in the summer. I'm going to pick up a couple of copies of the rulebook at GenCon (a large gaming convention in the States) in August.
Paradigm wrote: How does one go about getting the Free RPG Day stuff? Is it something you can sign up for and get sent, or do you have to acquire it from a store?
And if it's the latter, would someone in the UK be willing to pick up a copy for me, as I don't have any kind of store nearby? I'd of course be willing to cover the cost of postage.
Typically, a store pays for the FRPGD package that includes a set number of copies of intro games from whatever manufacturers signed up. They're then free to do whatever they want with it. It's pretty easy to find copies on ebay the same day as some stores raffle/give away the copies with the games being played either to the GM or a player. If you're lucky, a company will also post the adventure up as a free pdf download same day or soon after as well.
Hopefully they'll also release a digital version of the Free RPG Day content, would be nice for us less than fortunate scrubs with no participating stores in the vicinity.
But I will be getting this for sure, a lot of the FFG stuff was pretty good and with the talent attached to this project I have high hopes that it will turn out amazing.
Ah, that's good to know. I'm not sure about the system yet, so having a short adventure to run with my group and see how they get on with it would be a good litmus test before taking the plunge on a full copy.
Grinshanks wrote: Are dice pool mechanics in an RPG as bad as they seem?
I am a bit entry level when it comes to RPG's, and have only played dice pools in board games, but it doesn't seem to be a good system for balancing something yourself on the fly.
Let’s see: Ghostbusters, Star Wars d6, Prince Valiant, Shadowrun, Vampire The Masquerade et al, ... Die pool mechanics are well established in RPGs. Long linear randomizers aren’t easy to balance on the fly—no averaging or curves. Tell me how many dice you’re chucking and I’ll tell you how many successes you should get. d20 and d100 games are very swingy and not very predictable.
You're being daft. Black Industries was shuttered. This isn't Black Industries, it is a completely different situation, you know that, and you're just being overly dramatic.
And what fething difference did the "cancellation" make anyway? The game still came out, and hung around for years after that.
H.B.M.C. wrote: You're being daft. Black Industries was shuttered. This isn't Black Industries, it is a completely different situation, you know that, and you're just being overly dramatic.
And what fething difference did the "cancellation" make anyway? The game still came out, and hung around for years after that.
Is this going to be watered-down 40k, or are we going to have a more open system where we can do anything from Deathwatch, to Necromunda Gangers, to Heresy-Era blackshields?
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Is this going to be watered-down 40k, or are we going to have a more open system where we can do anything from Deathwatch, to Necromunda Gangers, to Heresy-Era blackshields?
I'm certainly getting this one (as the Fantasy RPG from cubicle7)
BrookM wrote:Hopefully they'll also release a digital version of the Free RPG Day content, would be nice for us less than fortunate scrubs with no participating stores in the vicinity.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As I said, there will be a digital release a few weeks after the physical one.
And the internet pirates will be hard at work: expect to see it on various torrent sites within a week of the digital release (about what Paizo has to deal with on Pathfinder).
Presumably given that it's for Free RPG Day, the PDF release should also be free, so really there's nothing to gain from pirating it. I'm sure the full rules will get the same treatment, but is there really anything that can be done about that at this point?
H.B.M.C. wrote: As I said, there will be a digital release a few weeks after the physical one.
And the internet pirates will be hard at work: expect to see it on various torrent sites within a week of the digital release (about what Paizo has to deal with on Pathfinder).
Hey, that actually happened with DH when GW shut down Black Industries after their staggeringly successful release (Nope, too much Success, GW said). FFG swooped in and picked it up, uncancelling it.
Though for me the most facepalm worthy thing out of the whole of the BI/FFG games was still Motorcycle Rough Riders getting retconned by HBMC here because he couldn't find anyone who knew of any canon regiments. Helps to read your own GM's guide, let alone IG canon.
We held this month's newsletter until now so that we could give you this amazing first look. Enjoy!
Your Guide to the Wrath & Glory Pre-Sale
The pre-sale for Wrath & Glory: Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay is almost here! We know that you’re excited to find out all about our plans, and we are thrilled to share them with you!
First, let’s talk about a few key products. The most important one is certainly the Wrath & Glory Core Rules.
This book has over 400 pages and acts as your complete rules reference for Wrath & Glory. It includes extensive character creation options, gamemastering advice, and so much more!
The Wrath & Glory Core Rules are the perfect way to get into the game!
Wrath & Glory: Dark Tides is the first full adventure module in the Wrath & Glory line!
The ocean world of Charybdion seethes with discontent and a growing sense of danger. Charybdion’s planetary governor has gone missing, and his councilors struggle to select a suitable heir. Meanwhile, mysterious murders, nightmares, and other dangers threaten to cast this planet into anarchy and despair.
Dark Tides is an anthology of five linked adventures that bring your heroes face-to-face with the dangerous villains responsible for Charybdion’s troubles. Can your heroes confront the vile forces spreading insanity and corruption? The fate of this planet is in your characters’ hands—if they can survive what lurks beneath the dark tides.
These are two of the most important products in the pre-sale, but there’s plenty more to see! We’ll be examining more of the individual products throughout the pre-sale itself. Meanwhile, let’s take a quick look at the full list…
Pre-Sale Bundles
We have set up two bundles for you to make your pre-sale experience as easy as possible.
This bundle is the perfect set of products to get you started as a player.
All-In Bundle – $275
Core Rulebook (Hardcover/Deluxe/Limited)
Dark Tides
GM Screen
Wrath Deck
Campaign Card Deck
Perils of the Warp Card Deck
Combat Complications Card Deck
Talents and Psychic Powers Card Pack
Gear Card Pack
Wrath & Glory Digital Soundtrack
3 Double-Sided Battle Maps (1 large, 2 medium)
Beginner’s Rulebook and a new Starter Adventure (separate from Blessings Unheralded)
6 Pre-Generated Characters on Deluxe Character Sheets
Acrylic Tokens for Characters, Enemies, and NPCs 10 Dice (9 black, 1 red)
Exclusive Collectors Box
For those who want it all, this is everything we have for the initial launch of Wrath & Glory. In addition to those products already mentioned, this bundle includes the GM Screen, Battle Maps, acrylic tokens, and Soundtrack to help you set the stage for your game. It also includes four card decks that the Gamemaster can use to generate excitement and story at the table: the Wrath Deck, the Campaign Card Deck, the Perils of the Warp Card Deck, and the Combat Complications Card Deck.
Bonus Material
In addition to being great bargains all by themselves, the Bundles are your key to amazing bonus material that we will include with your order at no additional charge!
Each week during the pre-sale, we’ll reveal another item that will be included with every order! These might be digital supplements with new game material, physical items added to your order, and more!
And the great thing is that you don’t have to do anything – no matter which bundle you choose or when you order, you will get all the bonus material! We simply want to take some time to talk about each of these amazing items, so we’re going to spread them out and reveal them as we go.
Pre-Sale Launch Date
At this point, we hope you’re eager to find out when you can start ordering. The presale is scheduled to launch on Friday, June 1st. We’ll post links on all our social media at 10:00am Central (UTC-5).
I really want some pictures. I'd rather not go "all-in" because that's a pretty painful price mark for a system I may or may not convince other people to try, so I hope we'll be able to buy some of that stuff separated at a later date.
Yeah, I'm a card whore and I can "deal" with optional cards to make things easier - but requiring extraneous items beyond a rulebook is a huge turn off for an RPG to me.
We held this month's newsletter until now so that we could give you this amazing first look. Enjoy!
Your Guide to the Wrath & Glory Pre-Sale
The pre-sale for Wrath & Glory: Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay is almost here! We know that you’re excited to find out all about our plans, and we are thrilled to share them with you!
First, let’s talk about a few key products. The most important one is certainly the Wrath & Glory Core Rules.
This book has over 400 pages and acts as your complete rules reference for Wrath & Glory. It includes extensive character creation options, gamemastering advice, and so much more!
The Wrath & Glory Core Rules are the perfect way to get into the game!
Wrath & Glory: Dark Tides is the first full adventure module in the Wrath & Glory line!
The ocean world of Charybdion seethes with discontent and a growing sense of danger. Charybdion’s planetary governor has gone missing, and his councilors struggle to select a suitable heir. Meanwhile, mysterious murders, nightmares, and other dangers threaten to cast this planet into anarchy and despair.
Dark Tides is an anthology of five linked adventures that bring your heroes face-to-face with the dangerous villains responsible for Charybdion’s troubles. Can your heroes confront the vile forces spreading insanity and corruption? The fate of this planet is in your characters’ hands—if they can survive what lurks beneath the dark tides.
These are two of the most important products in the pre-sale, but there’s plenty more to see! We’ll be examining more of the individual products throughout the pre-sale itself. Meanwhile, let’s take a quick look at the full list…
Pre-Sale Bundles
We have set up two bundles for you to make your pre-sale experience as easy as possible.
This bundle is the perfect set of products to get you started as a player.
All-In Bundle – $275
Core Rulebook (Hardcover/Deluxe/Limited)
Dark Tides
GM Screen
Wrath Deck
Campaign Card Deck
Perils of the Warp Card Deck
Combat Complications Card Deck
Talents and Psychic Powers Card Pack
Gear Card Pack
Wrath & Glory Digital Soundtrack
3 Double-Sided Battle Maps (1 large, 2 medium)
Beginner’s Rulebook and a new Starter Adventure (separate from Blessings Unheralded)
6 Pre-Generated Characters on Deluxe Character Sheets
Acrylic Tokens for Characters, Enemies, and NPCs 10 Dice (9 black, 1 red)
Exclusive Collectors Box
For those who want it all, this is everything we have for the initial launch of Wrath & Glory. In addition to those products already mentioned, this bundle includes the GM Screen, Battle Maps, acrylic tokens, and Soundtrack to help you set the stage for your game. It also includes four card decks that the Gamemaster can use to generate excitement and story at the table: the Wrath Deck, the Campaign Card Deck, the Perils of the Warp Card Deck, and the Combat Complications Card Deck.
Bonus Material
In addition to being great bargains all by themselves, the Bundles are your key to amazing bonus material that we will include with your order at no additional charge!
Each week during the pre-sale, we’ll reveal another item that will be included with every order! These might be digital supplements with new game material, physical items added to your order, and more!
And the great thing is that you don’t have to do anything – no matter which bundle you choose or when you order, you will get all the bonus material! We simply want to take some time to talk about each of these amazing items, so we’re going to spread them out and reveal them as we go.
Pre-Sale Launch Date
At this point, we hope you’re eager to find out when you can start ordering. The presale is scheduled to launch on Friday, June 1st. We’ll post links on all our social media at 10:00am Central (UTC-5).
See you then!
....And that's when I filed for Class Three Bankrupcy, Your Honour.
I've not gone through the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been discussed but has anyone else signed up for the free RPG day and/or have any more information beyond there will be a model to follow?
Also I'm expecting those cards will be optional extras, if not I'll be peeved.
Oh my! I absolutely love those covers! The characters are so vibrant and full of color when compared to the background. Love the cybernetic aquillas too, quite a different take on the typical Imperium symbol!
Also I'm expecting those cards will be optional extras, if not I'll be peeved.
I'm pretty sure they are. They'll be very helpful or pointless depending on the type of person you are. I bought the gear and spell cards for Shadowrun...hope they are a bit more helpful than those. Still nice to have little representatives of your important stuff.
Also I'm expecting those cards will be optional extras, if not I'll be peeved.
I'm pretty sure they are. They'll be very helpful or pointless depending on the type of person you are. I bought the gear and spell cards for Shadowrun...hope they are a bit more helpful than those. Still nice to have little representatives of your important stuff.
What was wrong with the Shadowrun versions? That's (for this day and age) a very crunchy ruleset that you'd think would benefit from handy dandy reminder cards.
We actually agree on a lot of things. Our disagreements are overblown. Plus, I can't help it if occasionally you're wrong about things.
Anyway, I suspect that these cards are just player aids or GM aids (like the psychic cards for 40K), rather than an actual rules expansion that cannot be used without the cards (like X-Wing).
Even so, this is the first print run of this game and it's bound to be riddled with mistakes, so the idea of having cards that will be immediately outdated the second the first errata gets published makes me move away from them instantly.
I hope the prices change, because if I read this right, that $100 is for a paperback copy, with the option to upgrade to hardcover, Collectors, and Limited Editions.
I hope the prices change, because if I read this right, that $100 is for a paperback copy, with the option to upgrade to hardcover, Collectors, and Limited Editions.
While I agree that the language is poorly chosen, I think the $100 starting point includes the hardcover. The "collectors" then have the choice to upgrade to the various special faux and real leather versions. Still... $100 for a core hardback is too much to ask IMO since I don't value highly the other bits and bobs they're including in the bundle. YMMV. I'll wait for the regular book to hit the shelves and order it at a discount with free shipping.
warboss wrote: What was wrong with the Shadowrun versions? That's (for this day and age) a very crunchy ruleset that you'd think would benefit from handy dandy reminder cards.
Depends on who you ask. Some people didn't like that the gear card's focus is an image and the crunchy bits are smaller text. Some complained they didn't have all the rules/stats. The spell cards are stark and rules forward, but incomprehensible unless you know all the one letter types. I'd say the gear cards are good for beginners and if you can decipher the spell cards you probably don't need them as you probably have memorized all the stuff on the cards.
Also poker cards are kind of small to get all that would be useful on them. Now tarot sized cards...
warboss wrote: What was wrong with the Shadowrun versions? That's (for this day and age) a very crunchy ruleset that you'd think would benefit from handy dandy reminder cards.
Depends on who you ask. Some people didn't like that the gear card's focus is an image and the crunchy bits are smaller text. Some complained they didn't have all the rules/stats. The spell cards are stark and rules forward, but incomprehensible unless you know all the one letter types. I'd say the gear cards are good for beginners and if you can decipher the spell cards you probably don't need them as you probably have memorized all the stuff on the cards.
Also poker cards are kind of small to get all that would be useful on them. Now tarot sized cards...
In a crunchy game like that, I'd definitely expect to have the full rules/stats listed on a card you're specifically buying as a game aid. With 40k W&G, it looks abstracted enough that it probably won't be an issue at least from the snippets we've seen so far.
At the start of the session you role a dice on this table, the result will be your objective for the session.
It asks you to roleplay your character in a certain way (depending on your character background) and if you do it you'll get a wrath point to use in the session. You can use wrath point for reroll for example.
A nice little bonus to help player roleplaying without feeling forced.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I dunno man. Being told what to roleplay based on a dice-role seems pretty forced...
It's not mandatory and the bonus is nice but not so important. You can clearly do without that.
But I clearly welcome a mechanic like this to give a little push for players to roleplay.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I dunno man. Being told what to roleplay based on a dice-role seems pretty forced...
It's not mandatory and the bonus is nice but not so important. You can clearly do without that.
But I clearly welcome a mechanic like this to give a little push for players to roleplay.
It almost sounds a little like a more overt version of 5e Background system, in that it exists to nudge players towards playing in character when, absent of that system, it'd be a bit overwhelming for them. Some players will skip right over that and know exactly what they want to play, but for new players it can be quite a daunting task to step into character, especially in a setting with as deep a mythos as 40k has.
If someone comes to this after a few months in 40k and elects to play a Battle Sister (a faction that hardly gets a ton of coverage in the core 40k background books, compared to Marine or Guard or Orks), it's entirely possible (especially if the rest of the table is more experienced) that they'll be worried about playing that character 'wrong' and committing some lore faux-pas, so having these hints for the less confident player might just provide that little extra nudge. Once everyone's comfortable, they can easily be ignored, but I don't think there's anything wrong with having a handrail to guide newer players.
schoon wrote: Those of us here can sometimes forget that the HUGE amount of 40K canon can be intimidating to new players.
I'm OK with a nudge for newer players, and grognards can easily ignore it.
Yeah, all the whining about these features seems to me trite and elitist.
I don't need to know how to roleplay a Chaos Space Marine. But for someone looking to enter the genre/medium, what to do? Buy a feth-ton of books and read, making the game a chore?
This is a helpful and welcome addition to the game that will do more good than harm - if you have realized that it in no way supports you, realize that you were never going to need it anyway.
And besides, it's not like this is the first time we've had entire tables to help make more believable 40k characters.
If it helps people new to the 40k setting or RPing in general than that's great I suppose but I really can't stand mechanics like that so I already know what the first thing that's gonna get houserulled out is...
H.B.M.C. wrote: I dunno man. Being told what to roleplay based on a dice-role seems pretty forced...
Is there a dice roll involved? That kinda mechanics usually involve getting rewarded when acting in line with the character cues.
The character sheets list 6 'objectives' that're things like threaten people with your Inquisitional Rosette or call upon your faith in the Emperor and it's listed under 'D6' and 'results', so yeah you seem to be rolling them which I'd definitely call forced..
We'll certainly need to see what the mechanics are, if any.
<goes check>
Huh. So it does look like a table to roll on, yeah. Maybe it's supposed to be used to roll at the start of an adventure to get a "secondary objective" for the character, and if you achieve it you get extra XP or something.
As TheGuest points out up there ^ that's exactly what happens, but it's once per session. Or you could pick one, I suppose, or simply not bother. I've never yet played an RPG where we used all the rules, and the world hasn't ended yet.
AndrewGPaul wrote: As TheGuest points out up there ^ that's exactly what happens, but it's once per session. Or you could pick one, I suppose, or simply not bother. I've never yet played an RPG where we used all the rules, and the world hasn't ended yet.
I'd dare to say that any RPG played strictly to the rules is the worst gaming experience you'll likely ever have.
Neronoxx wrote: But for someone looking to enter the genre/medium, what to do? Buy a feth-ton of books and read, making the game a chore?
Or, you know, spend thirty minutes reading a couple of wiki pages. And hey, maybe I'm odd, but if I'm going to commit the time and effort to participate in a proper RPG, it's going to be for a setting I find appealing and thus would not consider doing basic character research for a "chore".
I mean, the rule seems easy enough to ignore, but no matter how many times people refer to them online, these completely fresh new players without even the most cursory knowledge of the setting and system(regardless of which ones we're talking about) remain a complete unicorn IRL as far as I've experienced.
Neronoxx wrote: But for someone looking to enter the genre/medium, what to do? Buy a feth-ton of books and read, making the game a chore?
Or, you know, spend thirty minutes reading a couple of wiki pages. And hey, maybe I'm odd, but if I'm going to commit the time and effort to participate in a proper RPG, it's going to be for a setting I find appealing and thus would not consider doing basic character research for a "chore".
I mean, the rule seems easy enough to ignore, but no matter how many times people refer to them online, these completely fresh new players without even the most cursory knowledge of the setting and system(regardless of which ones we're talking about) remain a complete unicorn IRL as far as I've experienced.
Hey I have ready all three Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour books and while I learned a great deal about the structure and doctrine of Krieg Siege Armies, I would still have appreciated some more personal level quirks to orient myself for a Deathrider Only War campaign. 40k is foremost a wargaming setting and looking for personal inspiration beyond a few cool quotes and half-paragraph vignettes is not exactly straightforward.
I mean, the rule seems easy enough to ignore, but no matter how many times people refer to them online, these completely fresh new players without even the most cursory knowledge of the setting and system(regardless of which ones we're talking about) remain a complete unicorn IRL as far as I've experienced.
That just shows the limits of your experience then, I guess.
My first Dark Heresy campaign consisted of 4 players, who had all roleplayed before, but only one of them had any real knowledge of 40K. Although we managed to get people up to speed to the broad lines of the setting and their character concept with a few sessions of play, I am sure most of the 40K rookies would have been happy to have a mechanic like the one described up-thread to guide them along.
It's a good idea for those who are stumped or new to the setting, and I like this sort of thing with systems that let you replenish a "drama point" resource through roleplaying. It's just the "random" bit that has me scratching my head.
On another topic, do we yet know if the base RPG will have rules for vehicle / spaceship combat?
Neronoxx wrote: But for someone looking to enter the genre/medium, what to do? Buy a feth-ton of books and read, making the game a chore?
Or, you know, spend thirty minutes reading a couple of wiki pages. And hey, maybe I'm odd, but if I'm going to commit the time and effort to participate in a proper RPG, it's going to be for a setting I find appealing and thus would not consider doing basic character research for a "chore".
I mean, the rule seems easy enough to ignore, but no matter how many times people refer to them online, these completely fresh new players without even the most cursory knowledge of the setting and system(regardless of which ones we're talking about) remain a complete unicorn IRL as far as I've experienced.
All wiki pages, and indeed most lore for 40K is done from a highly removed level. Just because there is a wiki article on the particular subject, doesn't mean it will hold anything at all relevant to roleplaying a character successfully from that group.
And I suspect there's reasons you are not encountering them. Or more likely not noticing them. Like I said, we know more, and that places us in groups of similar people as far as knowledge goes.
I don't go search out newbies. But they do exist.
Shouln't the rulebook itself have enough background to get going?
I know someone referred to previous tables that were presented as an optional use for background guides, but these are in game effects. In my experience, whilst happy to ignore background generators and such, a lot of players don't like to ignore crunch.
Also a single line you have to say per session is not much of a guide. It is however going to lead to some very repetitive dialogue and games with chracters saying the same stuff over an over.
Also yes you can ignore it, but that is true of literally every shortcoming ever isn't it? Doesn't make the critique of the system less valid.
Not a fan of those secondary objective things. Rather than being 'encouragement to roleplay' they more often act as encouragement to do something arbitrary and nonsensical for mechanical advantage. Need your wrath points refreshed? Just ramble on about some background detail with no relevance to the current scene and there it is!
From what I've seen of the rules, it doesn't look like a terribly well written system. The free RPG day version is full of confusing terminology. There's an initiative stat, initiative system which has nothing to do with the initiative stat, seizing the initiative, which does affect initiative, but isn't based on initiative and a separate initiative system which is bases on initiative in case it isn't clear who goes first under the usual initiative system. It isn't consistent on what to call damage dice (either +ED or +BD, apparently at random). It's not at all clear what actions an exhausted character can do. The wrath dice doesn't interact with wrath points at all, instead generating glory and ruin points. Randomly adding plus signs into rules which don't seem to need them, like 'reduce difficulty by +rank' where rank is always a positive number. No explanation of whether you can get a shift from an exalted icon which was only partially spent to meet your difficulty. Things which increase difficulty and add dice don't have symmetrical effects, so you need +3 dice to make up for +2 difficulty.
Although the examples show normal D6, the system seem to be written for special dice with faces showing 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 2 symbols.
It seems that it's difficult to get killed if you are a PC (~80% chance of survival without medical attention when reduced to 0 wounds) but rather easy to get knocked unconscious with no clear method of recovery.
Neronoxx wrote: But for someone looking to enter the genre/medium, what to do? Buy a feth-ton of books and read, making the game a chore?
Or, you know, spend thirty minutes reading a couple of wiki pages. And hey, maybe I'm odd, but if I'm going to commit the time and effort to participate in a proper RPG, it's going to be for a setting I find appealing and thus would not consider doing basic character research for a "chore".
I mean, the rule seems easy enough to ignore, but no matter how many times people refer to them online, these completely fresh new players without even the most cursory knowledge of the setting and system(regardless of which ones we're talking about) remain a complete unicorn IRL as far as I've experienced.
All wiki pages, and indeed most lore for 40K is done from a highly removed level. Just because there is a wiki article on the particular subject, doesn't mean it will hold anything at all relevant to roleplaying a character successfully from that group.
And I suspect there's reasons you are not encountering them. Or more likely not noticing them. Like I said, we know more, and that places us in groups of similar people as far as knowledge goes.
I don't go search out newbies. But they do exist.
Here is the thing, the way Wrath & Glory is presenting itself primarily a sandbox system. It's tiered character system designed so you can play whatever you want from a broad range of classes and races from wildly different backgrounds (as opposed to a more focused system on just space marines for example). That isn't a criticism by the way, in fact it is great!
It is not newcomer friendly lore/roleplay wise though. Whereas a focused book can give enough detail in book so that new players can get a handle on how to rolepay a character, I think W&G will struggle to cover all it has set out to include. It's page count is less that Dark Heresy, yet it covers far, far more ground lore wise. I don't think a D6 line prompt system is going to help much with that (especially as it doesn't on its own contextualise what you're saying). The disadvantage to a gamification of roleplay is that is sets arbitrary targets that players will set out to meet regardless of context. For example, if ever combat results in xp, you can bet your bottom dollar players will always choose to initiate combat.
Also, lets get a little more realistic about 'newcomers' here. The hypothetical newcomer who benefits from this system has (a) neither played or experienced warhammer 40k, (b) has no experience with any other roleplaying system, and (c) bought (at a high price point) and read this book long enough to get to this snippet and would have been discouraged but for it. I will leave it to you to decide how likely that is.
A better example of newcomer encouragement is the 'example of play' comic. 'Show don't tell' is miles better for encouraging and visualising roleplay.
Grinshanks wrote: Shouln't the rulebook itself have enough background to get going?
Yeah for me this is actually a rather important point. I sorta expect that by buying the essential books for an RPG I'll get enough knowledge of the setting to play in it.
AndrewGPaul wrote: In my group only the GM has the rulebook, so that's a bit of a non-starter for getting new players up to speed.
So how would they get up to speed without use of the rule book?
My GM is the only own who owns the rulebook, but we are allowed to read it (or at least have him paraphrase the rules/background to us). All of that is based on what is in the book (or from existing experience, in which case we are not new players).
The D6 objective tables and/or the background lore are contained in the rule book anyway, they don't exist separately to it. So I am not sure what you advocating.
The pre-order bundles do come with digital files as well, those can always be shared with the rest of the group to keep everybody up to speed with the rules.
When we did Rogue Trader I personally had all the books, but the group had access to the relevant core and splatbooks digitally to make things easier for the others.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I dunno man. Being told what to roleplay based on a dice-role seems pretty forced...
I know. Imagine if most of your character (STR,DEX,CON,INT,WIS,CHA,HP) was determined that way. If that had been the basis of the hobby it would have never survived. ^_~
Also, whenever I read "roll" my brain always inserts "or choose".
BrookM wrote: The pre-order bundles do come with digital files as well, those can always be shared with the rest of the group to keep everybody up to speed with the rules.
Officially allowed to be shared or just *wink*wink* shared?
Ow. That is expensive. Still do want. Will probably have to wait now though. I already spent too much on RPGs through Kickstarter last year and still haven't gotten a chance to play those yet.
BrookM wrote: The pre-order bundles do come with digital files as well, those can always be shared with the rest of the group to keep everybody up to speed with the rules.
Officially allowed to be shared or just *wink*wink* shared?
Yes, for sure ! But I don't know, I am not in this time. I don't think we will get the same atmosphere, the same feelings that with the others if we have a commissar, a space marine and a rogue trader together on a mission,and what kind of mission ? Instead of a beautiful focused time with a strong background and a clear idea of what they are doing and why.
godardc wrote: So, what do you think ? Is that new book going to be better than the good old Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, etc. ? What are your feelings about it ?
I'm not hopeful. Clean tumblr-tier art, no compelling flavour in any of the text I've read, no coherent default mission, dubious power tiers, poorly written rules and sloppy editing in the free version (no change from the old system, but no improvement on the obvious weak-point)... just generally nothing that says it's going to be better and quite a few that suggest it will be worse. I wasn't even that much of a fan of the previous efforts.
I think I'll wait and see. If there is a general consensus that it actually works in six months or a year, then I might pick it up if my group express an interest.
I LIKE that this is a 'unified' setting, and there won't be different rules for what should be the same thing - like psykers - as there was in the recent past.
Much remains to be seen, but I like what I see so far, at least in terms of a good RPG to base a campaign off of.
The product is in good hands IMHO, the attached team introduced to us at the start of the preview cycle is a strong one, many of them veterans when it comes to creating roleplaying games, writing for the setting, or both.
The current setting is excellent for just about any scenario, though the mixed party discussion has been done quite a few times by now in this thread.
I'm probably all in myself, depending on how long the preorders are open, as there's other stuff popping up for preorder this weekend.. I do want to get in on day one for once though, having a product available to all from the get-go instead of being behind months at a time like back then.
Its probably still too early to say. As of now, there are only glimpses of how things work, its totally unclear how it all ties together.
As to the criticism... sure, its very free form from what weve seen, but thats not really a bad thing. Its a lot easier to add restrictions for a campaign (ie, only humans, etc) than it is to try and balance a force of marines and guardsmen that were never designed to act in the same scenario. Having that compatibility gives you waaaay more leeway in terms of possible campaigns.
Though I agree that some of the rules seem a bit... weird atm.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I dunno man. Being told what to roleplay based on a dice-role seems pretty forced...
I know. Imagine if most of your character (STR,DEX,CON,INT,WIS,CHA,HP) was determined that way. If that had been the basis of the hobby it would have never survived. ^_~
Also, whenever I read "roll" my brain always inserts "or choose".
Hey, I want you to be my DM. I could chose natural 20's all day long....Random assignment of tasks could help entry level players but it is an odd choice in a role playing game. It feels like they wanted a similar mechanic to the miniatures game but didn't know how to make it crossover well.
Chairman Aeon wrote: I know. Imagine if most of your character (STR,DEX,CON,INT,WIS,CHA,HP) was determined that way. If that had been the basis of the hobby it would have never survived. ^_~
Maybe it's the art style but I'm getting a bit more mainstream and less grimdark feel with this compared with the old FFG works (despite IIRC sharing some artists and writers in common from prior announcements.. correct me if I'm wrong though). That's not meant as a derogatory comment but rather an observation which may be colored by the recently announced kid's book series.
BrookM wrote: The product is in good hands IMHO, the attached team introduced to us at the start of the preview cycle is a strong one, many of them veterans when it comes to creating roleplaying games, writing for the setting, or both.
I don't follow these sorts of things much so I am very glad to hear that.
I would have said that I'm very cautiously optimistic, but maybe I can drop the italics or even the 'very'.
I like the dice pool mechanics that've been shown off, and the idea of different tiers of play sound interesting. Hell I am usually one for freedom over constraints in RPGs in general. But I am highly suspicious that going for such a large sandbox approach will make the mechanics that go with it rather bland just to accommodate everything. Going purely Imperial for the core book and bringing in xenos in supplements might have been better.
Still super keen to get my hands on it and give it a shot on Free RPG day though
godardc wrote: So, what do you think ? Is that new book going to be better than the good old Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, etc. ? What are your feelings about it ?
Yes, but with a caveat.
The new dice pool system is FAR more appealing to me than the old FFG percentile system, as well as the increase in default power level.
If those "failings" were things you liked, then you should think twice.
godardc wrote: So, what do you think ? Is that new book going to be better than the good old Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, etc. ? What are your feelings about it ?
I'm not hopeful. Clean tumblr-tier art, no compelling flavour in any of the text I've read, no coherent default mission, dubious power tiers, poorly written rules and sloppy editing in the free version (no change from the old system, but no improvement on the obvious weak-point)... just generally nothing that says it's going to be better and quite a few that suggest it will be worse. I wasn't even that much of a fan of the previous efforts.
I think I'll wait and see. If there is a general consensus that it actually works in six months or a year, then I might pick it up if my group express an interest.
This is pretty much exactly my take on it thus far.
If I hear good things from people beyond "b-but it's a unified setting so now I can be a Space Marine in any party!" I may give it a whirl. I'm not writing it off entirely, but I'm not holding my breath about moving on from FFG's offerings.
From what I've read, Crucible 7 seem to be doing a far better job with WHF4E. At least I can stand to look at their art.
If I hear good things from people beyond "b-but it's a unified setting so now I can be a Space Marine in any party!" I may give it a whirl. I'm not writing it off entirely, but I'm not holding my breath about moving on from FFG's offerings.
Hmmm...that feels a bit harsh, and certainly necessary.
If I hear good things from people beyond "b-but it's a unified setting so now I can be a Space Marine in any party!" I may give it a whirl. I'm not writing it off entirely, but I'm not holding my breath about moving on from FFG's offerings.
Hmmm...that feels a bit harsh, and certainly necessary.
You having a bad day today?
It hardly harsh to say he'll give it a whirl if he hears good things.
Mysterio wrote: No, the "b-but" classification of people who are glad to see that we're getting a single setting now.
Because that's not really guaranteed to be a positive, and people who point to it as such may not have seen what those sort of systems lead to. The best example is the classic dnd 3.5, with its tenuous balance that simply got worse as more and more options were added all with questionable "balancing" mechanics to keep them in line. It's entirely possible this game will have the same issues, needing house rules and DM fiat just to keep the party operating in the same general zone of balance.
Even allowing normal space marines in a mixed party is practically encouraging the ever popular/annoying hyper specialized combat character who is totally unphased by any combat encounter that won't render the more balanced party members useless, yet is in turn just going to twiddle their thumbs elsewhere.
The old FFG was more limiting but also kept things at a more equal level, with some exceptions.
Sure, that's a fine, valid opinion and it was expressed without being insulting to other people - well done!
I think someone earlier in this thread (or maybe it was in the WFRP thread) that noted that playing *any* RPG strictly by the book is probably the worst gaming experience you'll most likely ever have.
Mysterio wrote: Pre-order is live and...isn't very compelling.
Even the 'player' options feels unnecessarily expensive.
$100 for the rulebook, 2 card packs and 5 dice?
Is there a good reason to not wait until retail for this?
And I'd want some - but not all - of what's in the "ALL IN" bundle, but nothing in there looks exclusive?
Are the rumored 'extras' that will be added in over the pre-order period really going to make it worth it?
I wonder...
One added benefit mentioned by brookm is that the order direct from them comes with a free legal pdf as an added value. It's not enough to convince me personally but it may be the deciding factor for some.
Dark Tides Scenario Book
GM Screen
Wrath Card Deck
Campaign Card Deck
Perils of the Warp Card Deck
Combat Complications Card Deck
Wrath & Glory Digital Soundtrack
3 Double-Sided Battle Maps (1 large, 2 medium)
Beginner’s Rulebook and a new Starter Adventure (“Escape Da Rok”)
6 Pre-Generated Characters on Deluxe Character Sheets
20 Ceramic Poker Chip-Style Counters for Wrath, Glory, and Ruin
Acrylic Tokens for Characters, Enemies, and NPCs Exclusive Collectors Box
5 Extra dice
How much of this will be sold separately do you think?
H.B.M.C. wrote: And whether they're required to play the game?
This, this right here. Because if it is, I ain't buying.
I think they are not required, but for book keeping ease. I gathered that from some of the developers posts. I certainly hope that. When you consider how they lay out game books it wouldn't surprise me if the cards where just a convenient money grab. ( Like in regular 40k.) I also think it's interesting (maybe concerning) that they have a set for the campaign which I hope isn't mostly a reprint with a couple different cards added. Seems like a campaign deck would be more of an expansion.
Chairman Aeon wrote: In a perfect world those cards would look like Blanche sketches in sepia tone with game information overlayed on them. Hmm...
Alternately for other players, the overly busy nonsensical sepia Blanche art would instantly strike it from the must buy list. Personally, I believe Blanche's stuff is best left to the annals of 40k design history and referred to only for inspiration rather than being used as is in the modern (post 3rd edition) 40k era of asthetics. YMMV as obviously they can't please everyone all the time. I think the art shown here is ok (not my favorite) but it's (for me) leagues better than the 1st edition Blanche stuff. Personally, I prefer whoever does their cover art for the past couple of editions but that art is likey too time intensive for interior filler art.
Ray Swanland is the artist who has done most of the codex cover of the previous edition(s), sticking to a certain style throughout.
As for the current artist, the cover art done for the RPG books is by Diego Gisbert Llorens, who has done some excellent art for GW and the roleplay books in the past.
$100 is utterly ridiculous. I expected that to be for a collector's edition, but it turns out that's even steeper. I'm seeing the $60 number being touted around for the corebook alone, but I can't see anything about that on the site, unless some cards and dice will come to $40?
“You see, Luke: this is why the Master/Apprentice system was invented; learning on your own leads to situations like this, and one individual can’t properly bond with a group well enough to be an effective teacher.”
“Yes, Father, I see now. Shouldn’t we be helping him though?”
“No, son, some men you just can’t reach.”
The bonus pre-order stuff has not been very compelling so far.
Also, unless I've missed it, they're telling us nothing in terms of what you're getting in the 'all in' bundle.
What are the card decks all about?
What's in them?
How many cards each deck?
Absolutely necessary for play or just a handy aid?
Have they answered this anywhere yet?
Are they more forthcoming on their Facebook page?
Somewhere else?
If you have Twitch, and it's in the BoLS archives, I'd recommend finding the play-through of the rules that they did back in May. The adventure was called The Box of Shadows. Just about all of the card decks were used.
Interesting albeit a digital only WIP preview. Maybe by the end of the preorder period, the $100 package will seem more worth it. It's too bad the shipping isn't free. I'm surrpised to see their US hub is in Knoxville TN.
Wrath Card Deck – This card deck details numerous brutal critical hits for combat in Wrath & Glory, plus they are useful for determining the outcome of a threatening task (situations where the entire warband works together to complete steps towards resolving a dangerous situation).
Campaign Card Deck – These cards put some narrative control into the players hands for games of Wrath & Glory. Each card’s effects are immersive into the universe of Warhammer 40,000 and help connect the player to the themes and tropes of the setting.
Perils of the Warp Card Deck – Using psychic powers are dangerous in the 41st Millennium. Unfortunate psykers may manifest all manner of bizarre and sinister phenomena… and this card deck details the horrific events that ensue.
Combat Complications Card Deck – In Wrath & Glory, rolling a complication during a test means that the situation changes – usually becoming more difficult or problematic for the character. This deck is useful for when a complication is rolled in combat and contains many example situations that may occur.
Talents and Psychic Powers Card Pack – This card deck contains handy reference material for a character’s talents or psychic powers that they may possess.
Gear Card Pack – This card contains handy references for weapons, armour, and other important wargear for Wrath & Glory characters.
From their forum:
One of the employees (Eric) answered my question, when I asked if the contents of the card packs would be included in the Core Rulebook (as tables or rules sections, for instance) or if the contents would only be available via the cards themselves. I received the following answer:
---- ---- ---- ---- ----
The Campaign Card Deck is entirely separate and not duplicated in the book. That's because those cards are drawn and played by the players rather than triggered by events. The other decks are covered with tables, but the tables of course don't include the nice art or the feel of drawing them from a deck.
The other advantage of the card deck is that it can grow and change over time with promos or expansions.
Mysterio wrote: I received the following answer:
---- ---- ---- ---- ----
The Campaign Card Deck is entirely separate and not duplicated in the book. That's because those cards are drawn and played by the players rather than triggered by events. The other decks are covered with tables, but the tables of course don't include the nice art or the feel of drawing them from a deck.
The other advantage of the card deck is that it can grow and change over time with promos or expansions.
Well, I'm definitely feeling some WRATH there. So, in other words, yes, the decks are required to play, no, you can't play without them, and yes, we plan on milking this like a fething Pokemon.
Sorry, but this will be the first 40k 'rpg' that I turn down. PASS.
Mysterio wrote: I received the following answer:
---- ---- ---- ---- ----
The Campaign Card Deck is entirely separate and not duplicated in the book. That's because those cards are drawn and played by the players rather than triggered by events. The other decks are covered with tables, but the tables of course don't include the nice art or the feel of drawing them from a deck.
The other advantage of the card deck is that it can grow and change over time with promos or expansions.
Well, I'm definitely feeling some WRATH there. So, in other words, yes, the decks are required to play, no, you can't play without them, and yes, we plan on milking this like a fething Pokemon.
Sorry, but this will be the first 40k 'rpg' that I turn down. PASS.
I'm not getting that at all from the post you quoted. The other decks are included in the book as tables and the campaign deck sounds very optional in that you can just make your own motivations for the character each game instead of drawing them. I don't like the idea of their use in the rpg and the selling of videogame style day 1 DLC to core rules but they don't sound mandatory to me.I
Edit: Jeez, Android autocorrect is super derpy today.
I'm not getting that at all from the post you quoted. The other decks are included in the book as tables and the campaign deck sounds very optional in that you can just make your own motivations for the character each game instead of drawing them. I don't like the idea of their use in the rpg of the selling of videogame style day 1 DLC to score rules but they don't sound mandatory to me.
"The other advantage of the card deck is that it can grow and change over time with promos or expansions."
Can I play without it? Yes.
It's not mandatory.
Just because it launches alongside the core game doesn't make it mandatory.
This is nothing like FFG and their damn dice.
I have not been impressed with this game at all...40K does not work well as a "play whatever you want" and we will shove in a reason why an ork and a Space marine and chaos cultist are together.
the power levels of the various characters doesn't work either.
the cartoon describing a D&D-like dungeon crawl didn't help.
Yeah sounds like even if they add more cards later on you're still losing absolutely nothing by ignoring them and sticking to the tables in the core books. I don't mind the idea of a 'complication' and crit deck, but I also doubt I'll buy any of them unless once I have my hands on the book I decide I really enjoy the game and play regularly.
tpryan01 wrote: I have not been impressed with this game at all...40K does not work well as a "play whatever you want" and we will shove in a reason why an ork and a Space marine and chaos cultist are together.
the power levels of the various characters doesn't work either.
the cartoon describing a D&D-like dungeon crawl didn't help.
FFG did this right.
Honestly, that just means it's up to the GM to control the players. If you're running an inquisition campaign you tell them "No orks, chaos cultists, or space marines". Just because the rules for something are in the book it doesn't mean you have to use it, and you certainly don't have to accept anyone's character concept if you don't feel it suits the kind of game you want to run. Having the rules for everything in the core book actually gives you more flexibility to run the kind of campaign you want to run.
Not that I disagree with the way Black Industries and FFG did Dark Heresy and the associated collection of RPGS. That method worked well for White Wolf, and it goes a long way to setting the atmosphere of a game, as well as the expectations of players. However it comes with its fair share of drawbacks like varying levels of incompatibility between the settings, and re-buying a lot of rules and fluff you already own.
BaronIveagh wrote: Let me try this again, and just put up the words that should alarm you.
"promos or expansions"
Thus, they may not be mandatory 'yet'.
If they're not mandatory on release, then they can never become mandatory. Unless you think they'll be sneaking into your house to write new rules into your rulebook in crayon while you sleep.
BaronIveagh wrote: Let me try this again, and just put up the words that should alarm you.
"promos or expansions"
Thus, they may not be mandatory 'yet'.
If they're not mandatory on release, then they can never become mandatory. Unless you think they'll be sneaking into your house to write new rules into your rulebook in crayon while you sleep.
I took the use of 'mandatory' as meaning that in order to own all future official rules (expansions or otherwise), it would be required to buy cards as they won't be available in book format.
In other words in order to access content, you will need to buy decks (rather than say, a players handbook or bestiary containing the full rules).
Yes, no expansion is ever truly 'mandatory' to own, but that is a pedantic point on use of language deliberately missing the basis of his argument.
It would annoy me a LOT to buy the core book, only to find out at a later date that new official rules were only available via decks.
BaronIveagh wrote: Let me try this again, and just put up the words that should alarm you.
"promos or expansions"
Thus, they may not be mandatory 'yet'.
If they're not mandatory on release, then they can never become mandatory. Unless you think they'll be sneaking into your house to write new rules into your rulebook in crayon while you sleep.
I took the use of 'mandatory' as meaning that in order to own all future official rules (expansions or otherwise), it would be required to buy cards as they won't be available in book format.
In other words in order to access content, you will need to buy decks (rather than say, a players handbook or bestiary containing the full rules).
Yes, no expansion is ever truly 'mandatory' to own, but that is a pedantic point on use of language deliberately missing the basis of his argument.
It would annoy me a LOT to buy the core book, only to find out at a later date that new official rules were only available via decks.
Fair enough. I don't understand the irrational dislike of cards, but each to their own. It's no more annoying, IMO, than releasing sourcebooks down the line. And neither method bothers me, because I don't buy RPG supplements. They weren't necessary for Dark Heresy, nor for FFG's Star Wars RPG (although the card decks for that were useful IMO)
BaronIveagh wrote: Let me try this again, and just put up the words that should alarm you.
"promos or expansions"
Thus, they may not be mandatory 'yet'.
If they're not mandatory on release, then they can never become mandatory. Unless you think they'll be sneaking into your house to write new rules into your rulebook in crayon while you sleep.
I took the use of 'mandatory' as meaning that in order to own all future official rules (expansions or otherwise), it would be required to buy cards as they won't be available in book format.
In other words in order to access content, you will need to buy decks (rather than say, a players handbook or bestiary containing the full rules).
Yes, no expansion is ever truly 'mandatory' to own, but that is a pedantic point on use of language deliberately missing the basis of his argument.
It would annoy me a LOT to buy the core book, only to find out at a later date that new official rules were only available via decks.
Fair enough. I don't understand the irrational dislike of cards, but each to their own. It's no more annoying, IMO, than releasing sourcebooks down the line. And neither method bothers me, because I don't buy RPG supplements. They weren't necessary for Dark Heresy, nor for FFG's Star Wars RPG (although the card decks for that were useful IMO)
I wouldn't say it is irrational.
Cards have disadvantages over books for RPGs. They wear easily if not sleeved, they require different storage solutions, they don't benefit from the organisation of an index/page numbering, and they don't contain the same amount of fluff/art.
Then again books for some are cumbersome, take up too much space both physically and with unused info, break at the spine if you photocopy, etc.
It comes down to personal preference. For me, I prefer my RPG rules to be in books and I am a bit of a completionist when it comes to rules expansions. I just find event decks to be better suited to more gamey experiences like board games (though that is purely my opinion, not an objective fact!).
So if I can ascertain if there will be future rules exclusively in card format, I will probably avoid getting into this.
Wow a lot of these complaints seem to be from people that have never played a real RPG before.
Cards? DnD has cards.. DnD has miniatures too and none of that matters because a RPG experience is dictated by the players + DM. Every single RPG contains a lot of extra rules that aren't used unless you want to. I personally find cards very useful for actually *playing* the game tho, as the fluff inside a book only matters when you're not playing.
Play any class you want regardless of story? What RPG do you play that has no story construct? Again, feels like a complaint from people that don't actually *play* a RPG. For decades in DnD you were ALWAYS technically allowed to play random jank such as Thricreen paladins allied with Halfling undead bards. The setting and DM determines what is allowed, the rulebook merely gives you options.
IMO people are coming at this from the typical angle of "we're used to only playing games based on how GW tells us to play them", which is not how RPGs work. I rather have options in a RPG then not.
Given that no one knows for sure if the cards are mandatory, I'd say we can safely say that people will either acquire the game or not based on their preferences.
But kirasu is right. This "how will mixed parties work"? Is something I have seen many times, but in a rpg it is not a legitimate complaint.
I have seen people that woukd have liked a more focused rpg to have more precise rules and fluff, and thats is more reasonable, but at the end it comes to personal tastes. I like this more, one big rulebook to roleplay whatever I want. Orks one campaing, Eldar other, etc...
Galas wrote: But kirasu is right. This "how will mixed parties work"? Is something I have seen many times, but in a rpg it is not a legitimate complaint.
I have seen people that woukd have liked a more focused rpg to have more precise rules and fluff, and thats is more reasonable, but at the end it comes to personal tastes. I like this more, one big rulebook to roleplay whatever I want. Orks one campaing, Eldar other, etc...
I think the concerns are less of a 'how would a mixed party work' and more of a 'they seem to be trying to cover every possibility in this core book, that worries me as it could very well mean the rules will be very simplified to accommodate it'.
schoon wrote: Given that no one knows for sure if the cards are mandatory, I'd say we can safely say that people will either acquire the game or not based on their preferences.
Er, don't we actually now know that none of the cards are mandatory?
Er, don't we actually now know that none of the cards are mandatory?
Not till we actually see them. And if they put rules on them that are not in the book, then they 'become' mandatory, so there's always that. The issue is that there seems to be a certain level of 'you can play without them 'but'....'
That's only for the 'campaign deck' - and quite frankly what the campaign deck is and how it is used doesn't seems all that important, necessary or even useful.
Everything else - so we've been told (sort of) - can be found in the rule book.
Got my hands on the quickstart rules and Free RPG day scenario if anyone has any questions.
The first things that jump out to me are that like the FFG Star Wars games it has a lot of back and forth resource pools that at a first glance seem very confusing with all the bloody names (Dice roll either icons or exalted icons, exalted icons on the wrath dice give glory and extra exalted icons can be shifted, and shifts can become glory as well, which is different from wrath points which are again different to the wrath dice and if the wrath dice rolls a 1 it generates a complication which can be turned into a ruin....)
It also ties narrative elements to the dice rolls like FFG, between that and the roleplaying 'objectives' on character sheets I get the feeling they are writing the rules with a mindset that they need to mechanically encourage people to roleplay over roll play.
I need to sit down this weekend and actually play out the combats but the character sheets I have in front of me don't do anything yet to alleviate my worry that by including both marines and mortals in the same game they've had to dumb marines down. For example a lasgun appears to do 7+2d6 damage and a bolter 10+1d6, but the bolter has rapid fire (2) and brutal special rules so once actually in game that might make all the difference.
I played the Free RPG Day scenario at Origins Game Fair today. I played a priest, grouped with a Sister of Battle and an Interrogator (I think - maybe just an acolyte). Other options were a veteran Cadian guardsman, a White Scars Tactical Marine, or a Commisar.
Without seeing the character creation/advancement rules, I have a hard time seeing how this would work well with mixed tiers of play in a party. Mechanically it seemed to work fine (lower tier characters were advanced up), but thematically it was kind of a mess. A group can certainly agree to all operate on a lower tier or all as Inquistorial Acolytes, or whatever, but again without seeing character creation rules I don’t know how well the party would be able to diversify their characters so they aren’t all basically carbon copies. I was also disappointed in the adventure itself, but I don’t know how much of that was the GM.
So far I’ve seen nothing to make me think this is going to be better than FFG’s series, which I quite like.
Erren wrote: I played the Free RPG Day scenario at Origins Game Fair today. I played a priest, grouped with a Sister of Battle and an Interrogator (I think - maybe just an acolyte). Other options were a veteran Cadian guardsman, a White Scars Tactical Marine, or a Commisar.
Without seeing the character creation/advancement rules, I have a hard time seeing how this would work well with mixed tiers of play in a party. Mechanically it seemed to work fine (lower tier characters were advanced up), but thematically it was kind of a mess. A group can certainly agree to all operate on a lower tier or all as Inquistorial Acolytes, or whatever, but again without seeing character creation rules I don’t know how well the party would be able to diversify their characters so they aren’t all basically carbon copies. I was also disappointed in the adventure itself, but I don’t know how much of that was the GM.
So far I’ve seen nothing to make me think this is going to be better than FFG’s series, which I quite like.
How did the combat feel? At the start of the booklet it promises it'll be brutal and ultra violent and whatever, but the rules for dying and the multiple layers of stuff you need to go though with hitting against defense, then damage against resilience, then soak, then shock being different to HP all reads kinda bloated and pillowfisted to me.
Erren wrote: I played the Free RPG Day scenario at Origins Game Fair today. I played a priest, grouped with a Sister of Battle and an Interrogator (I think - maybe just an acolyte). Other options were a veteran Cadian guardsman, a White Scars Tactical Marine, or a Commisar.
Without seeing the character creation/advancement rules, I have a hard time seeing how this would work well with mixed tiers of play in a party. Mechanically it seemed to work fine (lower tier characters were advanced up), but thematically it was kind of a mess. A group can certainly agree to all operate on a lower tier or all as Inquistorial Acolytes, or whatever, but again without seeing character creation rules I don’t know how well the party would be able to diversify their characters so they aren’t all basically carbon copies. I was also disappointed in the adventure itself, but I don’t know how much of that was the GM.
So far I’ve seen nothing to make me think this is going to be better than FFG’s series, which I quite like.
I have zero experience with it since I'm not at the con but my gut feeling/first impression is that it sounds like it would work best with a majority of the group as one "thing" (either marines OR normal humans OR xenos) with only one or two "others" properly leveled up. Like an experienced Inquisitorial warband or Sororitas squad with a single marine detached from the chapter for the mission(s) or a deathwatch squad with an attached Inquisitor.
I would be interested in trying a group where everyone’s one (or two) “things”.
I didn’t get to participate much in combat. Spoilers for anyone wanting to play the scenario.
Spoiler:
I killed a pox walker with one shot of a laspistol. Then the Acolyte killed two. Then the SoB killed 6 with her bolter over two rounds. In the final combat the Sister did a called headshot on the final boss and killed him before anyone could even act. She rolled well, but it was still pretty anticlimactic.
Erren wrote: I would be interested in trying a group where everyone’s one (or two) “things”.
I didn’t get to participate much in combat. Spoilers for anyone wanting to play the scenario.
Spoiler:
I killed a pox walker with one shot of a laspistol. Then the Acolyte killed two. Then the SoB killed 6 with her bolter over two rounds. In the final combat the Sister did a called headshot on the final boss and killed him before anyone could even act. She rolled well, but it was still pretty anticlimactic.
Sounds like maybe they made a mistake setting the intro adventure at tier 3, but they kinda had their hands tied by the need to have a marine in there.
jonolikespie wrote: Sounds like maybe they made a mistake setting the intro adventure at tier 3, but they kinda had their hands tied by the need to have a marine in there.
Going off nothing more than the intro comic and the pre-generated characters, my guess is that Tier 3 is the recommended party level.
jonolikespie wrote: Sounds like maybe they made a mistake setting the intro adventure at tier 3, but they kinda had their hands tied by the need to have a marine in there.
Going off nothing more than the intro comic and the pre-generated characters, my guess is that Tier 3 is the recommended party level.
Seriously? I thought tier 3 would be the top one and more there for people who wanna play with marines but 2 would be average, 1 for people who wanna recreate DH.
jonolikespie wrote: Sounds like maybe they made a mistake setting the intro adventure at tier 3, but they kinda had their hands tied by the need to have a marine in there.
Going off nothing more than the intro comic and the pre-generated characters, my guess is that Tier 3 is the recommended party level.
Seriously? I thought tier 3 would be the top one and more there for people who wanna play with marines but 2 would be average, 1 for people who wanna recreate DH.
The top one will be tier 5. I seriously hope this will allow us to play Imperial Knights, as our resident forever DM wants to run a campaign like that after reading Kingsblade
The combat in this quick start booklet promises to be "a savage, ultraviolent display of carnage and woe" but I ran the numbers and upon hitting 0 wounds with no outside interference you have an 80.06% of stabilizing before you bleed out, and significantly more if you spend a Glory Wrath. The innate soak in the Resilience stat and then a rollable soak on top of that makes this all actually sound really pillowfisted.
The combat in this quick start booklet promises to be "a savage, ultraviolent display of carnage and woe" but I ran the numbers and upon hitting 0 wounds with no outside interference you have an 80.06% of stabilizing before you bleed out, and significantly more if you spend a Glory Wrath. The innate soak in the Resilience stat and then a rollable soak on top of that makes this all actually sound really pillowfisted.
It's always a balancing act with player survivability and mass destruction. It is pretty normal for players to have the heroic survival advantage built into game systems that promise that sort of game play for mook bowling purpose. That is what super soldiers do, stand hip deep in the blood of their enemies. Personally I think they should have turned to the system used for a small game called "Feng Shui" for inspiration.
I highly recommend folks that like some over the top fighting to take a look at that game.
The combat in this quick start booklet promises to be "a savage, ultraviolent display of carnage and woe" but I ran the numbers and upon hitting 0 wounds with no outside interference you have an 80.06% of stabilizing before you bleed out, and significantly more if you spend a Glory Wrath. The innate soak in the Resilience stat and then a rollable soak on top of that makes this all actually sound really pillowfisted.
It's always a balancing act with player survivability and mass destruction. It is pretty normal for players to have the heroic survival advantage built into game systems that promise that sort of game play for mook bowling purpose. That is what super soldiers do, stand hip deep in the blood of their enemies. Personally I think they should have turned to the system used for a small game called "Feng Shui" for inspiration.
I highly recommend folks that like some over the top fighting to take a look at that game.
The top one will be tier 5. I seriously hope this will allow us to play Imperial Knights, as our resident forever DM wants to run a campaign like that after reading Kingsblade
The very first promotional materials said iirc that would be the case.
The combat in this quick start booklet promises to be "a savage, ultraviolent display of carnage and woe" but I ran the numbers and upon hitting 0 wounds with no outside interference you have an 80.06% of stabilizing before you bleed out, and significantly more if you spend a Glory Wrath. The innate soak in the Resilience stat and then a rollable soak on top of that makes this all actually sound really pillowfisted.
It's always a balancing act with player survivability and mass destruction. It is pretty normal for players to have the heroic survival advantage built into game systems that promise that sort of game play for mook bowling purpose. That is what super soldiers do, stand hip deep in the blood of their enemies. Personally I think they should have turned to the system used for a small game called "Feng Shui" for inspiration.
I highly recommend folks that like some over the top fighting to take a look at that game.
Honestly, that sounds very unsanitary!
The sanitation officer, coming to your regiment soon!
A corpse starch recovery technician, a guardsman and an Ultramarine stride into a Space Bar, looking around they see their local contact an Imperial Knight Paladin squashed uncomfortably into a dark booth near the back of the vast, cavernous room.....
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: A corpse starch recovery technician, a guardsman and an Ultramarine stride into a Space Bar, looking around they see their local contact an Imperial Knight Paladin squashed uncomfortably into a dark booth near the back of the vast, cavernous room.....
The Stompa waitress sashays over, her revealing armour drawing all eyes in the bar to her big guns...
BrookM wrote: Not that I'm aware of, it's been awfully quiet as of late. Weren't we promised frequent previews and updates?
I believe they said they'd announce something extra weekly. It could be delayed because of the Origins Game Convention going on right now if they're exhibiting there.
Erren wrote: I would be interested in trying a group where everyone’s one (or two) “things”.
I didn’t get to participate much in combat. Spoilers for anyone wanting to play the scenario.
Spoiler:
I killed a pox walker with one shot of a laspistol. Then the Acolyte killed two. Then the SoB killed 6 with her bolter over two rounds. In the final combat the Sister did a called headshot on the final boss and killed him before anyone could even act. She rolled well, but it was still pretty anticlimactic.
Hey... Didn't I run this game?
Yep!
I played with BlueGrassGamer again at Origins this morning. The adventure (it was written for con preview events I think?) was better written, imho, and we had 6 players instead of 3. It was really weird having a commissar, a guardsman, a Tactical Marine, a priest, an Interrogator, and a Sister of Battle all be “about equal”, but as has been belabored elsewhere, any home group can work around that issue easily. 6 players is too big for just about any RPG, and it was too big for this too, but I don’t really fault it for that.
There’s no psychic rules in the previews I saw. There’s little indication about character creation or advancement. The dice pool system is fine, I guess. I’m reminded of FFG’s Star Wars and Genesys systems with their narrative results, which I despise, but I guess some people like that? It appeared that it could be easily discarded as desired, so that’s a plus I guess? If the character creation/advancement rules are fine, the writing is solid, and it receives good support from the company, I suspect it will do well, but then again, that’s not really new information for anyone I would think.
I guess my main take-always were that the Free RPG Day and Convention events don’t provide nearly enough information for me to make any bet on whether this will be successful. I’ll probably buy it at retail from my FLGS, but I’m not excited yet, which in itself is worrying.
I got to speak very, very briefly with one of the designers today at Origins. Knights are not in the Core Rulebook, but they want to do them. There is a Knight World in the sub sector the game is set in. ADB wrote much/all of the background/setting stuff.
Erren wrote: I got to speak very, very briefly with one of the designers today at Origins. Knights are not in the Core Rulebook, but they want to do them. There is a Knight World in the sub sector the game is set in. ADB wrote much/all of the background/setting stuff.
Anyone heard any news on when the free rpg day pdf will be released? I think I read it was a part of the preorder bundle so I hope that won't supercede a general release.
Yeah, no. I've been burned on cards before. My 6th Ed Apocalypse cards remain unopened to this day. These cards have things outside of the rulebook. That and the idea of drawing a critical result that will be the 'next' one for whomever suffers a critical? What?
I don't need nor want a deck of cards to tell me what results and "roleplaying" I or my players should be doing. We didn't need it in WFRPG 3rd Ed, and I don't see why we need it in the new 40KRPG.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, no. I've been burned on cards before. My 6th Ed Apocalypse cards remain unopened to this day. These cards have things outside of the rulebook. That and the idea of drawing a critical result that will be the 'next' one for whomever suffers a critical? What?
I don't need nor want a deck of cards to tell me what results and "roleplaying" I or my players should be doing. We didn't need it in WFRPG 3rd Ed, and I don't see why we need it in the new 40KRPG.
No thanks.
I'm thinking the same. I have no idea why you'd leave the next one there on the table for all to see, nor do I like them as narrative elements. Wrath and Glory really seems to want to hold your hand on narrative stuff like that.
A deck to draw crits/perils from instead of rolling might be cool, but the idea of drawing a 'weapon lodged in terrain' card when you're just standing in the open trying to gun someone down isn't gonna make much sense.
So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...
From what I can remember, Ross said you'll only need the Campaign Deck. You'll be able to stick with the charts in the book if the card decks aren't your thing. And hey, I was able to run five games of Wrath & Glory without the card decks or the core book...
Fun aside: To trigger a Critical Hit, you need to score an Exalted Icon on your Wrath Die when making a Ballistic or Melee Skill test.
BlueGrassGamer wrote: Fun aside: To trigger a Critical Hit, you need to score an Exalted Icon on your Wrath Die when making a Ballistic or Melee Skill test.
I assumed as much but nice to have confirmation. I found those pretty common actually, my groups were racking up the glory much faster than they could spend it while complications were much rarer.
So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...
Surely replacing the tables in the book means that they are an alternative to an already existing system and thus far more optional than they are necessary. I agree that card systems are gimmicky more often than not and are difficult to store neatly with the books but I also feel that this game is quite clearly setting out to be a flexible toolbox than a finely tuned simulator that insists we use every part of system every time. I loved the old 40krpgs very much but they were not particularly hackable.
So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...
Surely replacing the tables in the book means that they are an alternative to an already existing system and thus far more optional than they are necessary. I agree that card systems are gimmicky more often than not and are difficult to store neatly with the books but I also feel that this game is quite clearly setting out to be a flexible toolbox than a finely tuned simulator that insists we use every part of system every time. I loved the old 40krpgs very much but they were not particularly hackable.
Replacing and expanding, ie they will have things that are not part of the tables in the books. That makes them necessary to have access to a complete set of tools for playing the game.
And the old 40KRPGs were plenty hackable, it just required a bit of thought, not that any of my groups needed to all that often but then, we never felt a burning desire to finish off the joke "An Ork, a Genestealer Hybrid, and a Primaris Chaplain walk into a bar, the Imperal Knight bartender turns to them and says..."
I sympathise with the completionist impulse and very much agree that player-aides and whatnot should not be required to run the game. If the only way to know what spells my navigaor could use was to buy a spell card pack, I would certainly be turned off the game. So long as the option remains to run the game entirely out of the books though, I am pretty content.
From the sounds of it, card-based criticals play very differently from tables (the top card is known to the GM and players) so I understand if they may have different effects that would not work as well or be too cumbersome for the table-based resolution (and vice versa). This therefore strikes me more as a module to run the game slightly differently.
Perhaps I am trying a little too hard to be optimistic about this system (I have been waiting for something like it ever since I got into the 40krpgs) but the setting has always stressed the importance of blind faith
I do have to disagree emphatically about how easy the old percentile system was to manipulate though. The layered skills, perk and career system made hacking a very labour intensive process indeed (you could tell because FFG reused almost all of the perk trees in each of the books)
Have you seen what the community has made for the 40KRPGs? The Fringe is Yours, Fear and Loathing in the Eastern Fringe and Mars Needs Women! are expansions that have gone through many revisions.
Yes, they're a bit meme-y because they originate on /tg/, but they contain very detailed rules for all sorts of stuff, certainly well beyond the scope of the regular game.
Hell someone turned Dark Heresy rules into a whole new game for Neon Genesis Evangelion, complete with mech battles base building and all kinds of added stuff. Doesn't get much more 'hacked' than that.
jonolikespie wrote: Hell someone turned Dark Heresy rules into a whole new game for Neon Genesis Evangelion, complete with mech battles base building and all kinds of added stuff. Doesn't get much more 'hacked' than that.
OK, now that sounds awesome!
Link, please?
As for Cardgate here?
The latest nugget that they are 'replacing' and 'expanding' the tables in the book is a bit disappointing, but all indications remain pointing to the fact that they don't appear to be necessary, at all, stil.
I think version 2 or 2.5 was the one I played that was a DH mod, I'm not sure what the go with version 3 was but I think I heard they'd reworked the whole system for that so it might nor be d100.
I played one of the sample games at Origins. We were each handed a campaign card at the beginning of the game with the option to use it if we wanted. My take on them is that they're there to use if you need help coming up with narrative choices, or you need justification for doing cool things because of a controlling GM who feels the need to go by the book. If you don't think you need them, you probably don't.
My card, playing the sister of battle, allowed me to martyr myself to automatically let the party overcome a significant challenge.
Zefig wrote: My take on them is that they're there to use if you need help coming up with narrative choices
Yeah see it's stuff like that which makes me go back to the term 'handholding'.
I'm sure for people new to RPGs this is.. actually I am not even sure this would be beneficial for them, but I can see it as a design choice to help people new to roleplaying.
If they help people get into the setting and feel of the game, then good. Even if I don't use them, there's no downside.
In the last Dark Heresy campaign we played, we had two players (myself included) who were big 40k fans, two more and the GM who'd played a while back but weren't so obsessed with the nuances, and one newbie. We got on fine, but something like this; "here, read over these, it'll give you an idea of how your character is likely to act and think" can only be a benefit.
On a similar vein, I've always been a fan of WFRP 1st and 2nd edition (and the FFG40kRPGs) using random character generation. I've not got the imagination for backstory (I can never think of a name, never mind a character class or a history), so letting the game handle all of that for me is a boon.
As for them adding material to the core rules, what RPGdoesn't do that? I've never yet found an RPG supplement that was necessary to play the game, no matter how much extra crunch and tables they put in.
AndrewGPaul wrote: If they help people get into the setting and feel of the game, then good. Even if I don't use them, there's no downside.
In the last Dark Heresy campaign we played, we had two players (myself included) who were big 40k fans, two more and the GM who'd played a while back but weren't so obsessed with the nuances, and one newbie. We got on fine, but something like this; "here, read over these, it'll give you an idea of how your character is likely to act and think" can only be a benefit.
On a similar vein, I've always been a fan of WFRP 1st and 2nd edition (and the FFG40kRPGs) using random character generation. I've not got the imagination for backstory (I can never think of a name, never mind a character class or a history), so letting the game handle all of that for me is a boon.
As for them adding material to the core rules, what RPGdoesn't do that? I've never yet found an RPG supplement that was necessary to play the game, no matter how much extra crunch and tables they put in.
My issue isn't expansions adding to the core rules, it is those extra rules in expansions only being contained in decks.
I don't want to use card decks. Also despite the 'you don't have to use them' argument (which is incidentally true of everything ever) I am disappointed that the 'campaign only' deck that is not in the book is not narrative effects only, but also contains crunchy effects. This means I will have to ignore a chunk of the core rules to play without it. I don't like that. I either have to use a deck mechanic I don't like, or am forced to ignore a chunk of core rules which i don't like doing for a number of reasons.
AndrewGPaul wrote: So, you're upset at not being able to use a part of the rules you don't like?
I think this is all just preference, rather than a flaw in the game, yes?
No, I believe the use of cards as described is a flaw in the game because (a) it takes control of the narrative from players into the hands of mechanics. It isn't role playing, so much as describing what happens on an event card, and (b) the ability of the GM to make narrative decisions is restricted by his use of ruin tokens.
It is true that it is my preference to play without cards in general at all, and also my preference to play a game without ignoring whole sections of it. Though I hardly see how the latter alleviates my criticisms of what we have heard. 'Just ignore it' is pretty much agreeing something is bad, but insisting we all pretend it isn't for no discernible reason.
Also I am not 'upset'. It is a discussion board, and I'm discussing the things we've heard. Your comment wasn't clever, don't be rude.
AndrewGPaul wrote: So, you're upset at not being able to use a part of the rules you don't like?
I think this is all just preference, rather than a flaw in the game, yes?
No, they're upset that a part of the rules they probably would like to use is gated behind a mechanic they dislike.
Like, lets say Wrath & Glory version 2 rolls around, and they decide to take weapon criticals and make them dependent on you IRL shooting at a target with a dart gun sold to you in an expansion. You might think that sounds like fun, or that it sounds moronic, but thinking it sounds moronic doesn't mean you think the basic idea of weapon criticals are moronic or you don't want to use them, you just don't like that particular unnecessarily gimmicky implementation of them.
And that's the thing - for a lot of RPG players, deck-based mechanics are a gimmick, because everything they can do that's worth doing can be done in other ways that don't require you to fiddle about with a bunch of small items you can lose or damage much more easily than a big honking book of rules, and because they're often used as a way for companies to charge more money for things than they could if they were just part of the basic rules, because they've taken what would have just been a few extra pages of a book and made them into a big bunch of physical things, which our dumb ape brains can be easily tricked into seeing as extra value(and I'm not saying that's why people who like cards like cards, before anyone pops a blood vessel, just that if you ask people how much they'd pay for five pages of rules and how much they'd pay for a deck of cards, most will pay more for the latter even though the actual rules content ie the purpose of the things is the same).
Grinshanks wrote: No, I believe the use of cards as described is a flaw in the game because (a) it takes control of the narrative from players into the hands of mechanics. It isn't role playing, so much as describing what happens on an event card, and (b) the ability of the GM to make narrative decisions is restricted by his use of ruin tokens.
Ironic, isn't it, that in their effort to encourage people to roleplay they're in fact writing roll-playing into the system
Having run about five or six Wrath & Glory games at Origins for Ulisses NA, I can happily report that you don't need any of the card decks to run the game. I made do with the lite version of the Core Rules presented in the Free RPG Day pack and some dice. As far as I know, the card decks were only used in games that the developers themselves - mainly Ross Watson & Wendelyn Reischl - ran.
From what Ulisses NA has said, you are free to use the tables in the Core Book or the optional card decks. If you want to use the card decks, awesome. If you don't, cool. You'll just need the Core Book.
These card decks are optional, so they're not restricting anyone in any way, If you don't like the idea of having an outside force influence the story of your campaign, then they're not for you - and they wouldn't be if they were a table in the rulebook either.
I admit, I envy those of you who are better than me at storytelling (my Star Wars campaign petered out because I simply couldn't keep up as a GM), but I quite like all these different ways of adding behaviour cues to players. If it were the only way of doing things, then yes, that could be a problem. Looking at the example on the web article, that's the sort of thing players can do anyway, so nothing game-breaking" But why bother with the cards if you can do it anyway? because players may not have the experience to know they can do that sort of thing.
When I said "preference rather than flaw" I was meaning the idea of presenting game rules on cards rather than in books, not these Campaign Cards specifically. From my point of view, having, say, a deck of weapon cards or a deck of cards describing each class's special traits is better than putting tables or charts in the rules because I can dish out the cards to the relevant players rather than having to pass a large heavy rulebook across a living room.
The things that slow down our games are players needing to ask about or look up a rule, or getting a new item of equipment or skill and needing to copy the information onto their character sheet. Much quicker to say "you've found a heavy plasma gun" and pass the card to the player who's found it.
For reference, we don't play around a table - we play in living rooms, with each player in a chair or on a sofa. If I were playing a psyker, I'd find it easier to stick that deck of Perils of the Warp cards down the side of the chair and draw the top one when needed than to get up, get the rulebook from the GM and look in there, but different groups have different requirements. Drawing a card also feels more ... impersonal, than rolling a die. If the GM rolls a die and something bad happens I blame him. If it[s a card, well that's just the universe messing with me.
I admit, I'm not fond of the "leave the next critical hit face-up" idea - I understand the things they were wanting to achieve, but I don't see how this rule achieves that.
People keep saying "optional", but if they're adding extra stuff that isn't available in other ways whether you can choose not to use them is less the issue than if you do choose not to then you have one less tool in your toolbox.
Nobody objects to options, they object to gating content behind one of those options.
Yodhrin, I see the cards as optional because I don't really see them as a rules source. They're not adding game rules, they're not really adding character traits or anything, they're basically just sample narrative options. They're things that you'd be working out with your GM anyway. I see them as training wheels more than anything, but I've been playing RPGs for 20 years.
True, but in this instance, everyone who is objecting to the options only being in the form of a card deck are also objecting to the game mechanic these cards represent. No-one has yet said "I really like the idea of the campaign cards, but I wish they were in the rulebook, because I don't like using cards in my RPGs". The closest to that would have been FFG spreading the stats for PC alien races across multiple sourcebooks so that if you want to play a particular alien you need to pick up the sourcebook for a career type you're never going to use.
BaronIveagh wrote: So, in other words, yes, they really are necessary if they're replacing and expanding the rules in the books...
Oh Dakka, you never fail...
When a new source book comes out updating and expanding: Marines, Inquisitors, Eldar... will we complain that those books are necessary and that the core game is incomplete? Of course we will. Back in the real world, if you don't want to use the cards you don't have to. If you read the referring page you'll find out the decks aren't always the players friends and you might not want expanded and updated nastiness happening to your precious little snowflake. The cards are not necessary to play the game. Your enjoyment may be improved by using the cards, but that doesn't mean the core book is incomplete. Some people might not want to use the cards for reasons other than not liking using cards, like say the actual content.
Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.
Here's why: Lets say that for some reason I need the 'expanded' tables that only appear on the cards. Hmmm, suddenly it goes from 'Not needed' to 'required'.
Effectively, what they're selling us is Pen and Paper DLC. Since we already know that the cards are designed right in, this does mean that material that would have otherwise been IN the book is held back, to make the new 'expanded' material found only in the cards.
So, for those late to the thread? A summary of the card discussion so far.
Ross Watson (Wrath & Glory line developer): "You don't need the cards to play the game."
Eric Simon (Wrath & Glory community guru): "You don't need the cards to play the game."
Me (Wrath & Glory GM): "You don't need the cards to play the game."
Dakka:
BaronIveagh wrote: Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.
BaronIveagh wrote: Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.
Here's why: Lets say that for some reason I need the 'expanded' tables that only appear on the cards. Hmmm, suddenly it goes from 'Not needed' to 'required'.
Effectively, what they're selling us is Pen and Paper DLC. Since we already know that the cards are designed right in, this does mean that material that would have otherwise been IN the book is held back, to make the new 'expanded' material found only in the cards.
Your argument here is "People who say you don't need the cards are talking out their ass because what if I need the cards", which to be honest is not even really an argument. If a perfectly serviceable table is available in the book then under what possible circumstance would you be required to also own the cards? The only situations in which you would own them would be if you liked the card mechanics, if you wanted them for convenience at the table, or if you couldn't control your spending.
And, in theory, you can play 40k without ever buying a Codex. Try it sometime.
A codex contains the rules for your army which aren't available anywhere else (aside from the indexes released alongside the 8th edition rule book), owning one is a necessary part of building an army. The decks of cards, on the other hand, are entirely optional add-ons that replace rules already present in the core rulebook. This isn't even a comparison.
So how much of the rule book is devoted to these tables, or cards if they are an unnecessary option? Will these be like the weapon to hit adjustments by armor class nobody ever used in AD&D? How much will the cost of future adventures be effected by these cards if they are bundled together with new material? Were the developers told " Pokémon! Must sell cards! Add cards now! Add cards now!"
If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.
BaronIveagh wrote: Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.
Here's why: Lets say that for some reason I need the 'expanded' tables that only appear on the cards. Hmmm, suddenly it goes from 'Not needed' to 'required'.
Effectively, what they're selling us is Pen and Paper DLC. Since we already know that the cards are designed right in, this does mean that material that would have otherwise been IN the book is held back, to make the new 'expanded' material found only in the cards.
And, in theory, you can play 40k without ever buying a Codex. Try it sometime.
RPGs have been selling "DLC" since the first supplement book for RPGs. This is no different. Now, I understand your objection to card decks in principle, but in this instance, it makes no difference. In fact it's a benefit to you, as you're not being forced to buy content you don't want.
If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.
Pretty sure there's racks of those in GW.
Yeah, I think making a separate model line to use for a pen and paper RPG would be the quickest way to lose the GW licence that any RPG company could do
BaronIveagh wrote: Let me suggest that the people who are saying that the cards are not required are talking out thier ass.
Here's why: Lets say that for some reason I need the 'expanded' tables that only appear on the cards. Hmmm, suddenly it goes from 'Not needed' to 'required'.
For what 'reason' would you suddenly 'need' the stuff that's only on the cards?
At this point, I may be arguing under a misapprehension. My understanding is that only the Campaign cards are not duplicating something already in the core rules. However, I'm assuming that the other decks - Wrath, Perils of the Warp and the other one - have the same spread of results as he tables they copy. Is it perhaps the case that the Perils of the Warp deck, for instance, has card in it with effects that are not already in the table in the rulebooks? That would be a little annoying.
AndrewGPaul wrote: At this point, I may be arguing under a misapprehension. My understanding is that only the Campaign cards are not duplicating something already in the core rules. However, I'm assuming that the other decks - Wrath, Perils of the Warp and the other one - have the same spread of results as he tables they copy. Is it perhaps the case that the Perils of the Warp deck, for instance, has card in it with effects that are not already in the table in the rulebooks? That would be a little annoying.
Yeah, you’re on track with that assumption. Ross said that only card deck you will need is the Campaign Deck. All of the other decks are covered by tables that are in Core Book. If you choose to use the card decks, they replace the tables in the Core Book. As for how the card decks stack up against the tables in the book? I don’t think anyone outside of the development team knows at this point.
If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.
Pretty sure there's racks of those in GW.
Yeah, I think making a separate model line to use for a pen and paper RPG would be the quickest way to lose the GW licence that any RPG company could do
Yep, I'm sure all those legal team folks are in a state of vapor lock that prevents them from making money if they want to.
Warmachine. An example of a wargame that supported open game license RPG based on the setting with individual blister pack miniatures.
The cards seem to be a boutique specialty item that will clutter future adventure path releases.
You have your keep on the borderlands dice, then your island of dread dice, followed by your Ravonloft dice.
Insurgency Walker wrote: If they were desperate for some add on sales item they should have just done individual blister packs of character miniatures.
Pretty sure there's racks of those in GW.
Yeah, I think making a separate model line to use for a pen and paper RPG would be the quickest way to lose the GW licence that any RPG company could do
I'd love GW to release Wrath and Glory branded cross promotion models though, like a 'veteran guardsman', an inquisitor, stuff like that which would basically be versions of some of the starter adventure characters but customization with different heads and guns. They could then double as 40k models by tying them to actual rules for an inquisitor and guard officer or something.
AndrewGPaul wrote: At this point, I may be arguing under a misapprehension. My understanding is that only the Campaign cards are not duplicating something already in the core rules. However, I'm assuming that the other decks - Wrath, Perils of the Warp and the other one - have the same spread of results as he tables they copy. Is it perhaps the case that the Perils of the Warp deck, for instance, has card in it with effects that are not already in the table in the rulebooks? That would be a little annoying.
Yeah, you’re on track with that assumption. Ross said that only card deck you will need is the Campaign Deck. All of the other decks are covered by tables that are in Core Book. If you choose to use the card decks, they replace the tables in the Core Book. As for how the card decks stack up against the tables in the book? I don’t think anyone outside of the development team knows at this point.
Correct, but the rules are written in a way that the decks is used. The mechanic of having the next critical effect face-up to play around doesn't work with a roll table. So are there two sets of rules for using tables and using decks? Or just using decks with a 'table' that just shows what is in the deck (so not a roll table at all?)
There are other questions still outstanding that I want to find out before committing/not committing .
Is it possible to play the campaign without use of the decks. Hopefully not, but he did say that stuff was not included in the book (including future adventure books?) and as random expendable resources i don't see many ways to work around that.
They also mentioned that in future all decks could be 'expanded' with rules updates. Is that limited to stuff like adding weapons cards to the weapons deck (in which case as long as the rules are in expansion, no problem), or additions to a critical deck (how would that work with two separate tables?). If the additional rules are in a deck, will they also be in the future books at all?
How many copies of each weapon are there in a deck? I can see a use if enough for each player to have a card for their weapon, but if just one copy then not much difference from referring to a shared book? (not really an issue, just weird)
I like the expanded character choices, I have come around to the dice pool. I dislike to idea of the deck/usable cards mechanics for reasons i previously stated.
If there is content (whether expanded rules or adventures) now, or in the future, that can't be used without using decks I want to know because then I can happily drop the system. I don't want a system where I have to 'ignore' rules to enjoy it.
As it stands I am interested in getting a new 40krpg but don't know enough about it.
AndrewGPaul wrote: At this point, I may be arguing under a misapprehension. My understanding is that only the Campaign cards are not duplicating something already in the core rules. However, I'm assuming that the other decks - Wrath, Perils of the Warp and the other one - have the same spread of results as he tables they copy. Is it perhaps the case that the Perils of the Warp deck, for instance, has card in it with effects that are not already in the table in the rulebooks? That would be a little annoying.
Yeah, you’re on track with that assumption. Ross said that only card deck you will need is the Campaign Deck. All of the other decks are covered by tables that are in Core Book. If you choose to use the card decks, they replace the tables in the Core Book. As for how the card decks stack up against the tables in the book? I don’t think anyone outside of the development team knows at this point.
Correct, but the rules are written in a way that the decks is used. The mechanic of having the next critical effect face-up to play around doesn't work with a roll table. So are there two sets of rules for using tables and using decks? Or just using decks with a 'table' that just shows what is in the deck (so not a roll table at all?)
The official announcements call them optional items, so I can only believe that the core rules say "roll on this chart for a critical effect", whereas the cards say "instead of rolling on the chart, deal out the top card, and apply it to the next critical hit generated". Your statement there implies you've seen the rules, but I assume that's not the case? later in the post you talk about questions to be answered, which to se suggests you've not seen the rules either.
As for " a system where I have to 'ignore' rules to enjoy it", I've yet to find the RPG system where I want to use all the rules (even just all the rules in the core rulebook, never mind bothering with supplements). In Dark Heresy, we ditched the "infamy" system (or whatever FFG called it), in most other games we chuck out or simplify ammo tracking, encumbrance, etc. I'd rather the rulebook had stuff in I didn't want than be missing something I do want.
Grinshanks wrote: Correct, but the rules are written in a way that the decks is used. The mechanic of having the next critical effect face-up to play around doesn't work with a roll table. So are there two sets of rules for using tables and using decks? Or just using decks with a 'table' that just shows what is in the deck (so not a roll table at all?)
Going off the preview article for the card decks, it's one or the other. If you and your gaming group chooses to use the card decks, you've replaced the tables in the book with a card draw/the card mechanics..
Grinshanks wrote: Is it possible to play the campaign without use of the decks.
Yeap, you are more than able to run Wrath & Glory without using any of the decks. I sure didn't have access to them while running Wrath & Glory at Origins.
Grinshanks wrote: They also mentioned that in future all decks could be 'expanded' with rules updates. Is that limited to stuff like adding weapons cards to the weapons deck (in which case as long as the rules are in expansion, no problem), or additions to a critical deck (how would that work with two separate tables?). If the additional rules are in a deck, will they also be in the future books at all?
I'd hazard a guess that Ulisses NA is going to be following FFG's example. Every time FFG releases a new supplement for their Star Wars line, they also release a card deck of each specialization in the book. The card decks basically make the information in the book available in another medium.
Grinshanks wrote: How many copies of each weapon are there in a deck? I can see a use if enough for each player to have a card for their weapon, but if just one copy then not much difference from referring to a shared book? (not really an issue, just weird)
I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Ulisses NA looks to have moved away from having specialized damage tables - like Slashing, Projectile, and Exploding - and adopted a more generic approach to damage. The Wrath cards that I have seen, and that have been previewed, just deal straight Wounds. And Gear decks aren't a thing in Wrath & Glory.
I gotta say that this thread has taken some of the wind out of my sails regarding this game. It went from a must preorder day one to reserve a copy of it at my local store to wait for the reviews to come out before deciding. That's not a rip on this thread as plenty of valid concerns have been raised.
For what 'reason' would you suddenly 'need' the stuff that's only on the cards?
I grant I'm making an assumption, but the cards need to have a reason to exist. Otherwise no one is going to use them. Easiest way to do it: hold back rules that a GM would require, like vehicle rules, for the cards instead of on a table in the book.
And I grant, I should have used 'microtransactions' instead of DLC. Effectively, any cards can be rolled out at any time that change the game in fundamental ways. The prohibitive cost of creating an RPG splatbook is what used to keep this sort of thing under control. Now with cards we can just spam whatever we want, and they've already announced that there will be con and event specific card releases.
That’s a hell of an assumption to make, honestly. Especially since the Specialization Decks that FFG releases along side their Star Wars books don’t add anything to the game beside making the Specializations available in a different format. They don’t add additional Talents or anything else.
And the horror! Having promo cards for the entirely optional card decks available at conventions! They’ll probably include them free if you buy a set amount of merchandise, like spending forty bucks are the booth or something!
Wrath and Glory via Facebook wrote:Earlier this week, we previewed several of the new gameplay card decks for Wrath & Glory. We are now happy to announce that we will be including 10 promo cards for the Campaign Card Deck in every bundle! (Player and All-In)
If you haven't seen our list of bonus materials lately, be sure to scroll down to the appropriate section and see what's coming!
Also, we'll start sending out coupon links to the OffWorld Designs t-shirt next week, starting with everyone who's pre-ordered so far!
Blessings Unheralded (physical product) – This is the same packet that we created for Free RPG Day 2018. Unlike other Quickstart products, Blessings Unheralded comes with tokens, a battlemap, and deluxe character sheets, so in the future we’ll be selling it rather than giving it away. But you’ll still get it for free with your pre-order!
As a Free RPG day little adventure sure it was an ok product, but as a starter kit they expect people to pay for.... The 'tokens' came on a sheet that I never bothered cutting out because.. well.. they didn't push out you had to use scissors.
The battlemap was tiny single sided A3 and as far as I could tell doesn't actually match any of the locations in the adventure
Spoiler:
in both games I ran I joked with the party that the thing that looks like a fuel hose is actually a hatch into the food production pipeline which could lead to it all being tainted.
The character sheets were nice, quality sheets. Dunno about deluxe but fine I have no problem with that part.
But they imply other quickstart products don't come with these things? My FFG star wars ones come with huge double sided maps that cover everything nessecary, equally nice character sheets, and much higher quality tokens that I can simply push you of the frame. D&D is like that too. Iron Kingdoms Unleashed came with models. As an actual introductory product the Blessings Unheralded kit is really small and cheap looking, I never thought anyone would be expected to pay for it
So they're selling the free RPG day promotional adventure instead of giving it away in PDF form? (besides bundling it with preorders of course) Yeeeeeahhh... I'm going to have to disagree with that choice. If I wasn't already in the wait and see camp then this would definitely put me into it.
I've actually posted in the Facebook thread that I didn't realize the Free RPG module was the starter set and that it worries me a little they seem to think it's comparable to other RPG starter sets on the market. If and how they reply could be very very telling...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok they've responded and clarified that Blessings Unheralded is not a starter set, just a slightly larger quickstart.
jonolikespie wrote: I've actually posted in the Facebook thread that I didn't realize the Free RPG module was the starter set and that it worries me a little they seem to think it's comparable to other RPG starter sets on the market. If and how they reply could be very very telling...
I'd say it's hard to do a comparison with the relative prices personally. If they charge $10 for the physical starter and it's got 1/5th the content of a $50 D&D starter then it's relatively worth it. I just think it's more than a bit odd to not offer it as a free pdf as well given the proven tactic used by FFG which iirc some key people involved worked at.
My guess though is that they will eventually release the starter pdf for free but they're holding off on announcing it so as to sweeten the pot for the overpriced preorder bundles. Then they'll sound magnanimous when they change their mind later on and give it free to all because of popular demand or somesuch. It also could just be that they need to sell it for added income. Just spitballing either way but I think the former is most likely. The free rpg day adventure was going to be my gateway into the game but not anymore I suppose.
So, there's two version of Blessings Unheralded module. One of them is tagged as being part of Free RPG Day, the other - the one they're including the bundle - isn't.
The Free RPG Day mod has the map on the inside cover, the character tokens, the adventure, four character sheets (each four pages long: character illustration on the front, two pages of crunch, and character background on the back cover), and the core rules.
The other version of the mod has all six of the characters, the character tokens, the adventure, the core rules, and the map.
As for how it stack up to other Free RPG Day mods? Paizo's yearly offering is something in the We Be Goblins line. It's a sixteen page module. The are two pages of character sheets - four characters, a half-page given over to each one or a page each - and that 's... about it, really. There aren't any full size maps or character tokens.
Selling a Free RPG Day adventure isn't anything new, either. All of Paizo's Free RPG Day mods are available for sale on their webstore. Five bucks for a physical copy, or free as a PDF download.
Is there a decent place to get a summary/idea of how this game plays and what you can play within it etc? Me and my friends are looking to start up a PnP campaign again this August and trying to decide between this and Warhammer Fantasy. Guessing info is somewhere in this thread but 40 pages is a lot to sift through x_x.
GenRifDrake wrote:Is there a decent place to get a summary/idea of how this game plays and what you can play within it etc? Me and my friends are looking to start up a PnP campaign again this August and trying to decide between this and Warhammer Fantasy. Guessing info is somewhere in this thread but 40 pages is a lot to sift through x_x.
Yeah, there is. On Ulisses NA's website is a five page web comic that serves as the introduction on how to play. Here's the link for ya: https://www.ulisses-us.com/comic/wg-example-p1/ Feel free to drop me a PM as well. I ran about five games of Wrath & Glory at Origins.
warboss wrote:The free rpg day adventure would have been a good start/introduction as a pdf but it's (for now) only a preorder bonus with an expensive bundle...
Ulisses NA already has plans to release Blessings Unheralded as a PDF. In keeping the Free RPG Day rules, they aren't able to release it until July.
