Not sure where you get that idea about rank; IIRC, planetary governors and Chapter masters are of equivalent rank. It's just that hardly anyone other than officers of his Chapter have the authority to give him orders (although depending on circumstances, he could agree to follow the lead of a non-Marine).
I have and the campaign that I played in was entirely about shooting things.
That is neither the fault of the game nor the fluff. It's how your GM handled it. We played campaigns that were centred around exploration, diplomacy, investigation, intrigue, and yes, combat. All viable and all fluffy. We had as much fun uncovering the lost relics of long forgotten chapters as we did having a grand old hack and slash through a space hulk. The fact people are saying that it is impossible to do any of those other non-combat things with Space Marine PCs is just completely false. I repeat: i put that down to people having never played a game where they were a space marine PC (but wanting to sound like they know what they are talking about) or having played dull versions of Space Marine PCs. To say" it can't be done because fluff!" Is just utter rubbish.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Not sure where you get that idea about rank; IIRC, planetary governors and Chapter masters are of equivalent rank. It's just that hardly anyone other than officers of his Chapter have the authority to give him orders (although depending on circumstances, he could agree to follow the lead of a non-Marine).
Every marine is an Adeptus Terra, just like every planetary governor. It doesn't mean much in practice I am sure but none the less a marine will have far more influence with the wider world than the average mook.
To say" it can't be done because fluff!" Is just utter rubbish.
Its not really. Marines are highly trained and indoctrinated in combat and associated roles, above all they are morally inflexible. They simply have much less scope than a standard human in terms of things that they could do in a 40kRPG. It's really as simple as that.
A good GM can indeed make the most of it (adding things like diplomacy for example) but the fluff does indeed impose limits.
I would be interested in seem the extent of the fluff mangling and mental contortion that would be required to get an ork and a marine in the same party.
As we have now really gotten lost in the weeds that's all I will be saying on this topic.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Not sure where you get that idea about rank; IIRC, planetary governors and Chapter masters are of equivalent rank. It's just that hardly anyone other than officers of his Chapter have the authority to give him orders (although depending on circumstances, he could agree to follow the lead of a non-Marine).
Every marine is an Adeptus Terra, just like every planetary governor. It doesn't mean much in practice I am sure but none the less a marine will have far more influence with the wider world than the average mook.
There's more than one rank of Adept. Those guys who spend their lives filing paperwork are also members of the Adeptus Terra, but rather lowly ones.
In theory, only a higher-ranking Marine can order a Marine, since the Marines have an independent chain of command. but then again, Marines can't order Guardsmen, Arbites, etc, either. In practise, reputation and force of personality count for a lot. I bet there's plenty of Marines who'll do what Commissar Yarrick tells them, for example, even though he's not even entitled to order Guardsmen directly.
When Yarrick talks, even Astartes listen. When he said Hades Hive should not be defended, one Marine commander spoke up, but was quickly silenced by the others, who did know what the Old Man had done previously.
Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.
I am the GM in this case. I have yet to meet players who can roleplay loyalist marines in an interesting fashion while also being true to the fluff, and no way to make your typical story arcs with normal humans fit space marines in them outside of just making it a open warfare campaign.
Only place where a mixed party like this works is if you're playing a chaos party.
Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.
I am the GM in this case.
Grey Templar: Not only wouldn't I have been so quick to volunteer that information, but deflecting the blame onto the players is neither a classy thing to do or an actual defense.
Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.
I am the GM in this case.
Grey Templar: Not only wouldn't I have been so quick to volunteer that information, but deflecting the blame onto the players is neither a classy thing to do or an actual defense.
H.B.M.C. is correct.
This. To use the previously mentioned example of the players having to infiltrate a party. Yes, obviously the marine would stick out like a sore thumb, so why hasn't the GM organised some side adventure for them to get involved in whilst the others are doing their thing in the party? The Space Marine player can have control of an NPC for the party segments and the other players control NPCs during the Space Marine segments.
Maybe the Space Marine player controls an imperial agent aiding the PCs in their investigation of the party guests, trying to identify criminals who are involved in trafficking highly-addictive narcotics. Meanwhile the Space Marine has joined a squad of Arbites (being played by the players whose characters are at the party) in a raid on a warehouse believed to be used by the drug cartel, with the raid running concurrently with the party, with guests at the party reacting to the news of the raid, allowing the players to identify cartel members by gauging their reactions, hacking their comms etc. And all of this then builds to a big reveal that the cartel is actually an undercover slaaneshi cult.
This has the advantage of not arbitrarily cutting out players from being able to contribute because of the class of their character whilst also giving them the opportunity to play different styles of characters for short periods of time. Some of these little side characters can result in great character moments if the players come up with fun, quirky personalities. Some which come to mind are from my Uni Dresden Files game where two of the player characters had to go to a council of wizards. There was no in-game reason for any of the other player characters to be there so instead we each got to play other wizards in the audience, which we relished by making them the most befuddled and prone to inane rambling speeches wizards since the Unseen University faculty.
Every marine is an Adeptus Terra, just like every planetary governor.
I don't understand what you mean by this. Adeptus Terra is just a term for the umbrella organization for the entire Imperium.
Imperial Gaurd, Assassins, the Navy, Custodes, Arbites, the Administratum... everything is Adeptus Terra.
Everything except the Inquisition, that is. And, as per the 6th edition Rule book when this was all outlined thoroughly, the Astartes are actually only loosely associated with the Adeptus Terra.
What does being in the Adeptus Terra have anything to do with chain of command?
Space marines are first and foremost soldiers. Just because they stand apart as a fighting force and have relative autonomy in choosing their theater of war, that doesn't mean that most space marine legions don't respect chain of command and orders from humans who out rank them. Just look at the Deathwatch. They fight along side humans and take orders from them constantly.
I will say one thing: players drawn to play space marines in mixed parties are either ones who love their lore and will play them very accurately (which has... limitations) or the sort of player who doesn't care about roleplaying at all and wants to build the meanest combat character he can. Not always true, but those are the general two categories. You can work with ether type of course, but it can be exhausting.
I haven't dealt with this personally, but I did have a player run an ogryn in only war and that was bad enough. He was type two, which means he wasn't even invested in RPing a friendly dumb ogryn which can at least be funny. It makes things a bit harder. Not insurmountable, the campaign was still a lot of fun, but it created more work.
Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.
I am the GM in this case.
Grey Templar: Not only wouldn't I have been so quick to volunteer that information, but deflecting the blame onto the players is neither a classy thing to do or an actual defense.
H.B.M.C. is correct.
This. To use the previously mentioned example of the players having to infiltrate a party. Yes, obviously the marine would stick out like a sore thumb, so why hasn't the GM organised some side adventure for them to get involved in whilst the others are doing their thing in the party? The Space Marine player can have control of an NPC for the party segments and the other players control NPCs during the Space Marine segments.
Maybe the Space Marine player controls an imperial agent aiding the PCs in their investigation of the party guests, trying to identify criminals who are involved in trafficking highly-addictive narcotics. Meanwhile the Space Marine has joined a squad of Arbites (being played by the players whose characters are at the party) in a raid on a warehouse believed to be used by the drug cartel, with the raid running concurrently with the party, with guests at the party reacting to the news of the raid, allowing the players to identify cartel members by gauging their reactions, hacking their comms etc. And all of this then builds to a big reveal that the cartel is actually an undercover slaaneshi cult.
This has the advantage of not arbitrarily cutting out players from being able to contribute because of the class of their character whilst also giving them the opportunity to play different styles of characters for short periods of time. Some of these little side characters can result in great character moments if the players come up with fun, quirky personalities. Some which come to mind are from my Uni Dresden Files game where two of the player characters had to go to a council of wizards. There was no in-game reason for any of the other player characters to be there so instead we each got to play other wizards in the audience, which we relished by making them the most befuddled and prone to inane rambling speeches wizards since the Unseen University faculty.
As a player, I hate this sort of solution. I want to play my characters, not the one someone else came up with.
Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.
I am the GM in this case. I have yet to meet players who can roleplay loyalist marines in an interesting fashion while also being true to the fluff, and no way to make your typical story arcs with normal humans fit space marines in them outside of just making it a open warfare campaign.
Only place where a mixed party like this works is if you're playing a chaos party.
O.o Do you watch Science Fiction movies, or old Black and White mysteries? Do you read books? DO you pre-play the modules and think of how to cater the adventure to your particular group?
I'm honestly not one to point fingers and call people out. All I would recommend is to look over on YouTube, and look into how to DM in other games.
A few Arcs, BTW on the top of my head.
The Space marine is a lone survivor, and you have to help him gather up some gear/ find out where he is supposed to go to, and use a couple of hooks as you get lone space marine home.
Fish out of Water.
Put space marine in an alterative roll. He can't fight, so now it is development and character development time.
"I'm not a techmarine, but I'm as close as your going to get right now..."
"I can help teach you all to stand on your own feet and defend your settlement. I can help, but YOU have to stand up for yourselves against these XYZ enemies..."
" Hey, we just lost our leader, we have this Space Marine, unfortunately he lost his gak along the way, so we need to get him tooled up with some weapons and get his armor fixed, as we help him find his XYZ widget..."
As a player, I hate this sort of solution. I want to play my characters, not the one someone else came up with.
You're handed a completely blank slate, you can make that character whoever you want it to be and make a memorable NPC that your group will remember and share stories of for years to come. And if you really don't want to then don't, instead sit quietly and wait for the action to come back to where your character is.
As a player, I hate this sort of solution. I want to play my characters, not the one someone else came up with.
You're handed a completely blank slate, you can make that character whoever you want it to be and make a memorable NPC that your group will remember and share stories of for years to come. And if you really don't want to then don't, instead sit quietly and wait for the action to come back to where your character is.
If by "blank slate" you mean "blank character sheet", then no. It' not my character. If the GM has in any way described the character before handing control to you, he has already established a baseline for the character and is then, by definition, not my character. I would rather take the second option and just sit this one out.
Grot 6 alluded to another issue with Space Marines in mixed parties in his examples of non-combat scenarios for Space Marines: It's really hard for the SM to not become the focal point of the campaign due to their very nature and importance in the setting. That's never a good thing in any roleplaying system. That's why I didn't allow Space Marines in the party unless we were playing a Space Marine campaign.
It feels like a lone Space Marine would be a great fit in a party of mixed adventurers.
Especially in tales set in the 40K galaxy!
I mean what words should worry a party more than "Bored Space Wolf"?
With chapter informing a fair bit of the angles you can go play with it's rather easy to rattle off non-combat opportunities for space marines, ultramarine statesmen acting as advisors, salamanders artificing or generally being helpful, Dark Angels skulking around with surprising skill for no apparent reason, there's a good deal of personality to deal with even with the boring chapters. You're playing someone who's likely lived multiple human life times, sure he's combat proficient to an absurd level, but the guy's been around the block in plenty of other ways. While they may not want to get tied up into the everyday, unless they're with their chapter they most certainly will. They'll always be somewhat apart, but they have plenty they're capable of.
But again, it's the balance issue. A space marine will be the focal point of placed alongside normal baseline, or even somewhat experienced, humans. That's their nature both mechanically and lore wise. It's hard to balance that as a DM and stay true to the world.
They work, but they work in something like high level inquisition play, where they are adventuring alongside inquisitors, imperial assassins, etc.
As a player, I hate this sort of solution. I want to play my characters, not the one someone else came up with.
You're handed a completely blank slate, you can make that character whoever you want it to be and make a memorable NPC that your group will remember and share stories of for years to come. And if you really don't want to then don't, instead sit quietly and wait for the action to come back to where your character is.
If by "blank slate" you mean "blank character sheet", then no. It' not my character. If the GM has in any way described the character before handing control to you, he has already established a baseline for the character and is then, by definition, not my character. I would rather take the second option and just sit this one out.
Grot 6 alluded to another issue with Space Marines in mixed parties in his examples of non-combat scenarios for Space Marines: It's really hard for the SM to not become the focal point of the campaign due to their very nature and importance in the setting. That's never a good thing in any roleplaying system. That's why I didn't allow Space Marines in the party unless we were playing a Space Marine campaign.
You're not creating and rolling up a whole new character, you are contributing to the campaign by providing the personality and character traits of an NPC during time of the game where your PC is not present. It is not the stats which make characters good or memorable, it is how they are played. You are assigned the role of an arbite assisting the space marine, do you make him the gruff no-nonsense sergeant? Maybe the nervous redshirt on his first mission, or the squad clown who makes it his personal quest to make the space marine laugh?
There is nothing more rewarding in a game than making what was meant to be a throwaway NPC mook a beloved character within the game, to the point that the players will actually go out of their way to help that NPC even when doing so has negative repercussions to their campaign goals and will want to hear more about. When you manage that, you know you have crafted a great character.
I agree with ATCM here. Improvising personalities and backstories for NPC's to the point of making your players (If you are the GM, or other players) love them and actually gives them the desire to know more about that NPC is one of the ... Master of Roleplay traits that one should want to achieve.
I get what you're saying, but I don't think the solution to allowing someone to play a Space Marine should be "make him play someone other than a Space Marine from time to time". If I chose to play a Space Marine, it wasn't because I wanted to roleplay an arbite.
Again, the roleplay aspect is up to you and the GM. If you're struggling with this, it's an issue that you are having, not an issue with the game.
I am the GM in this case.
Grey Templar: Not only wouldn't I have been so quick to volunteer that information, but deflecting the blame onto the players is neither a classy thing to do or an actual defense.
H.B.M.C. is correct.
Sure, the GM does have a bit responsibility to help, but it is primarily on the players to role-play their characters. The GM's job is to just give them opportunities to do this.
Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans. And frankly, I as a GM do not have the time to deal with this major extra hassle. I have to prep for the basics of the next adventure and plan for contingencies. Having to tweak stuff to accommodate a Marine is just a bridge too far IMO.
If other people can do it good for them, but for me it's both too much work and/or it often just breaks the suspension of disbelief in the setting.
Fish out of Water.
Put space marine in an alterative roll. He can't fight, so now it is development and character development time.
"I'm not a techmarine, but I'm as close as your going to get right now..."
"I can help teach you all to stand on your own feet and defend your settlement. I can help, but YOU have to stand up for yourselves against these XYZ enemies..."
" Hey, we just lost our leader, we have this Space Marine, unfortunately he lost his gak along the way, so we need to get him tooled up with some weapons and get his armor fixed, as we help him find his XYZ widget..."
Good post, and also one of the ways I've found to make a Space Marine work in a mixed party.
Make them the "Yankee in King Arthur's court." Remove them from support and familiarity; introduce them to ambiguity; etc.
As had been pointed out, they can be difficult to conceal (but not impossible - can you say Ogryn disguise?), which also helps balance.
Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans
So don't use "otherwise normal humans" - I don't see the issue here - if you want a party that is vaguely on a similar level and that's about all you will get with most rpgs then you define the available races, roles, classes etc.
One person wants to play a Space Marine - that's fine - then the other players get to be equivalent:
So one is a Interrogator or relatively new Inquisitor who has absolute authority.
Another is a high level tech priest, looking to become a Magos
Another is a Adepta Sororitas veteran
A full blown Astropath
A Primus Psyker
A Deamonhost
A Eldar Pathfinder
Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans
So don't use "otherwise normal humans" - I don't see the issue here - if you want a party that is vaguely on a similar level and that's about all you will get with most rpgs then you define the available races, roles, classes etc.
One person wants to play a Space Marine - that's fine - then the other players get to be equivalent:
So one is a Interrogator or relatively new Inquisitor who has absolute authority.
Another is a high level tech priest, looking to become a Magos
Another is a Adepta Sororitas veteran
A full blown Astropath
A Primus Psyker
A Deamonhost
A Eldar Pathfinder
etc.
That sounds to me like letting one player dictate the direction and mood of the entire campaign, and that's rarely, if ever, a good thing. To put it in D&D terms, that would be like the DM redesigning his whole campaign because one player wants to play and level 20 paladin and won't play if he the DM doesn't let him. It's simpler to just tell that player to piss off.
Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans
So don't use "otherwise normal humans" - I don't see the issue here - if you want a party that is vaguely on a similar level and that's about all you will get with most rpgs then you define the available races, roles, classes etc.
One person wants to play a Space Marine - that's fine - then the other players get to be equivalent:
So one is a Interrogator or relatively new Inquisitor who has absolute authority.
Another is a high level tech priest, looking to become a Magos
Another is a Adepta Sororitas veteran
A full blown Astropath
A Primus Psyker
A Deamonhost
A Eldar Pathfinder
etc.
That sounds to me like letting one player dictate the direction and mood of the entire campaign, and that's rarely, if ever, a good thing. To put it in D&D terms, that would be like the DM redesigning his whole campaign because one player wants to play and level 20 paladin and won't play if he the DM doesn't let him. It's simpler to just tell that player to piss off.
YMMV. To me, RPGing is about what I do during the sessions; the backstory is just there to drive that. So I'm happy starting as green PDF troopers or a grizzled veteran of thirty years of warfare.
The beauty of this new system is that it looks like it'll let you do both. If you're not keen on PC Marines, don't allow them.
Marines are inherently problematic in a party of otherwise normal humans
So don't use "otherwise normal humans" - I don't see the issue here - if you want a party that is vaguely on a similar level and that's about all you will get with most rpgs then you define the available races, roles, classes etc.
One person wants to play a Space Marine - that's fine - then the other players get to be equivalent:
So one is a Interrogator or relatively new Inquisitor who has absolute authority.
Another is a high level tech priest, looking to become a Magos
Another is a Adepta Sororitas veteran
A full blown Astropath
A Primus Psyker
A Deamonhost
A Eldar Pathfinder
etc.
That sounds to me like letting one player dictate the direction and mood of the entire campaign, and that's rarely, if ever, a good thing. To put it in D&D terms, that would be like the DM redesigning his whole campaign because one player wants to play and level 20 paladin and won't play if he the DM doesn't let him. It's simpler to just tell that player to piss off.
Not really its more like:
"Ok do we want to do high level campaign (Marines are fine) or a low level campaign (not fine)"
When people say Marines cannot interact well with humans and are morally unflexible, I can't stop but think on how Raven Guard, Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Salamanders discord from such affirmative. Such line of hinking works for Imperial Fists or Carcharodons, bit not for EVERY marine
The good folks at The Grimdark Podcast interviewed Ross Watson, adding a little bit to what we know:
- The game will use the metric system and "Queen's English."
- It will follow GW's Rulebook and Codex model, though Codex = Campaign books
- Campaigns will include:
- - - Background book
- - - Linked adventures book
- - - Character options book
- GW gives the Ulisses team access to their notes and background material, but also gives them some freedom to explore
- Characters from one campaign can easily be used in other campaigns; the rules won't change
First proper newsletter is out now, here's the design diary:
Wrath & Glory Designer Diary 1: Archetypes
For me, designing Wrath & Glory is at once both a path I’ve traveled down before and breaking new ground. On the one hand, I’m very familiar with the grim darkness of the far future, having worked on many games placed in that setting. In addition to that, I’ve done a lot of design work in roleplaying games over the years…but on the other hand, that design work was never quite like what I’m attempting to do with Wrath & Glory.
This game is a brand-new approach to Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay, and that means it has all the challenges and advantages of building an entirely new system of game mechanics to help drive the experience. A big part of that involves a complex balancing act, designing depth while trying to avoid over-complication, embracing simplicity while trying to add meaningful choices, and many other choices along the way. One of the most important things about designing for Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay, however, is steady as a rock:
The game must feel like Warhammer 40,000.
There are many ways to approach that goal, but one of the first that came to mind when I set out to work on Wrath & Glory is the idea of archetypes. The 41st Millennium is home to many iconic character types: Commissars, Space Marines, Tech-Priests, Psykers, Sisters of Battle, and Inquisitors, just to name a handful. The idea of these archetypes goes beyond just the bare definition of their role in the galaxy. Indeed, these archetypes are powerful, living examples of the main themes of the setting itself.
And that is what makes them perfect player characters.
The idea of an archetype and what that means in a roleplaying game has had many iterations, from the “Smuggler” in West End Games D6 Star Wars to the “Street Samurai” of many editions of Shadowrun. Sometimes, an archetype is simply a name attached to a specific build of character options. Other times, an archetype has its own particular identity expressed in the mechanics of the game, often through a special ability or mechanical effect that is unique to them.
For Wrath & Glory, I knew that I wanted the archetypes to trend closer to the latter than the former on the spectrum. There’s something great about being able to express what an archetype represents within the game system, something that can meaningfully add to a player’s experience in the game. I like to believe that these things can, in many cases, lead a player to greater immersion in the game, in the setting. I think this also leads to greater verisimilitude.
So what does all this discussion mean for Wrath & Glory? I wanted to give people who are fans of the game and the setting a glimpse into my design philosophy. Know no fear…not all my designer diaries are going to be so introspective! We will be discussing more concrete details about the game in the future, including looks at artwork, specific mechanics, and other parts of this project. Thank you for reading, and rest assured I am hard at work refining the construction of the Wrath & Glory RPG!
Ross has also just been interviewed for the Polyhedron Podcast, and though there's not much new news there, I'll catalog it here anyway just so people don't have to dig back into the thread...
- The core book will be "broad and inclusive," giving you all the tools you need for any campaign or game style - the campaign books will get into specifics
- There will be a beginner's box with rules, dice, pre-gen characters, and adventure to get folks started - even if they have no knowledge of 40K - It will be a d6 dice pool system, and they are looking at the sweet spot for number of dice rolled (not too few, not too many)
- System is designed to be action oriented, plays fast and smooth
- Scaling power levels (tiers) is a major design concern, and they are focused on doing it right
- Social conflict will be a part of the rules
- 1st campaign will be Imprium Nihilus
- 2nd Campaign will be Eldar (possible name "Doom of the Eldar")
- A Chaos (bad guy) campaign is being considered
Good to hear all that. I want to hear directly that someday they will do Tau though before I well and truly get hyped. I get that it will be some time though. This will be great to shed some more light on civilian life for the other races.
Something you said that I’m sure will make a lot of people’s ears perk up is mixed parties. How are you foreseeing balance work in a game where Space Marines might be right alongside Inquisitors? That’s really important to us. Having worked on Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, Only War, and Black Crusade, those games were at very different power levels. We were trying to make those experiences work together in a larger sense but there were a lot of rough edges and things just didn’t come together the way that we wanted them to. So looking at Wrath and Glory we are starting very very early with this idea that you should be able to play the type of campaign that you want. That means that the archetypes that you play are appropriate for that type of game experience…
We have this idea that we are working on that there are these tiers of play…a Space Marine is kind of a tier 3 type character… in a tier 3 type game you would be dealing with tier 3 type character dealing with tier 3 type challenges.
…Obviously a tier 1 guardsman would not be appropriate for that experience, so we are gonna have a system in place so that you can take that guardsman and take him up to the level where he can be at the same level as a Space Marine. He’ll be a cigar chewing, scarred veteran with like, dozens of years of experience under his belt. He’ll have a power fist and a melta gun and he’s gonna have a bad attitude and he’s gonna be an excellent addition to that group…
Something you said that I’m sure will make a lot of people’s ears perk up is mixed parties. How are you foreseeing balance work in a game where Space Marines might be right alongside Inquisitors? That’s really important to us. Having worked on Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, Only War, and Black Crusade, those games were at very different power levels. We were trying to make those experiences work together in a larger sense but there were a lot of rough edges and things just didn’t come together the way that we wanted them to. So looking at Wrath and Glory we are starting very very early with this idea that you should be able to play the type of campaign that you want. That means that the archetypes that you play are appropriate for that type of game experience…
We have this idea that we are working on that there are these tiers of play…a Space Marine is kind of a tier 3 type character… in a tier 3 type game you would be dealing with tier 3 type character dealing with tier 3 type challenges.
…Obviously a tier 1 guardsman would not be appropriate for that experience, so we are gonna have a system in place so that you can take that guardsman and take him up to the level where he can be at the same level as a Space Marine. He’ll be a cigar chewing, scarred veteran with like, dozens of years of experience under his belt. He’ll have a power fist and a melta gun and he’s gonna have a bad attitude and he’s gonna be an excellent addition to that group…
BrookM wrote: Though I'm sure some folks will see a lot wrong with it.
Probably... but I'm guessing there is no pleasing a good portion that type of player base without singularly caving to every individual whim they have. Ymmv but I feel that playing the equivalent of a Commissar Cain or Sly Marbo next to a tactical marine is a good solution in theory to the problem.
Some people will have problems with some aspects no matter what they do. It's unfortunate but common: the idea that if one does not like everything about a game that game is not only bad for them but objectively bad overall and anyone who likes the game is wrong. Really makes feedback collection an uneviable job.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: But what about a way to take your tier 3 space marine down to the level of the new guardman recruit from the no-tech planet?
it's always been (fairly) simple to power up weedier character types yourself as a GM,
far harder to power down character types that (in background)are meant to be very powerful
Are you quoting someone and replying? Or asking and answering your own question?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: But what about a way to take your tier 3 space marine down to the level of the new guardman recruit from the no-tech planet?
it's always been (fairly) simple to power up weedier character types yourself as a GM,
far harder to power down character types that (in background)are meant to be very powerful
You just can't. Theres nothing bad about that, Roleplaying games aren't about allowing players to do EVERYTHING. They need to give a rule-structure that reflects the universe they are trying to represent. If Space Marines are just always, even the less powerfull ones, more powerfull than normal humans veterans with decades of experience, then let it be that way.
It comes down to the players and GM to decide what they want to roleplay. Or even if they want to ignore that.
I have know people that in their Warhammer40k campaings, revived Sanguinus just to make him become the New-Emperor and be married with a Eldar Farseer and bring peace to the galaxy. For me thats an abomination, but the GM and the players liked it that way. It doesn't affect anyone.
It comes down to the players and GM to decide what they want to roleplay. Or even if they want to ignore that.
I have know people that in their Warhammer40k campaings, revived Sanguinus just to make him become the New-Emperor and be married with a Eldar Farseer and bring peace to the galaxy. For me thats an abomination, but the GM and the players liked it that way. It doesn't affect anyone.
I don't know your gaming group, but tell them I hate them.
Seriously, though, Galas is right, Orlando. At some point, its up the the GM to moderate his own game. You have to be able to tell the players "These are the restrictions on what you can create. We can play a combat-heavy, action focused Tier 3 campaign later, but for now, everyone else wants to play a high-tension starter campaign right now, so we're sticking to Tier 1 archetypes. Here are your options."
I have know people that in their Warhammer40k campaings, revived Sanguinus just to make him become the New-Emperor and be married with a Eldar Farseer and bring peace to the galaxy. For me thats an abomination, but the GM and the players liked it that way. It doesn't affect anyone.
BRB, need to write this down for future reference.
Anyway, wasn't Rogue Trader a highly regarded 40k iteration? That system requires some very strict GM oversight because some of its systems are really not that compatible with each other.
It's the RIFTS problem: sure, you can make a party with a Glitter Boy, dragon hatchling, ley line walker, and a vagabond - but that's mean it will work all that well, and you can't really down power the rest to match without completing breaking the fiction behind them.
I got in at 3rd edition so I can't comment on what actually happened during RT with any certainty but the old timers (when I joined.. it's all relative!) never described having a third GM though. The games they'd reminisce about were always traditional tabletop one on one games. YMMV.
Scaling up weaker PCs to Stronger ones is infinitely easier, and more fun, than scaling down PCs.
Who would want to play Josephus, Neophyte Space Marine who didn't have a bolter, power armor, or half of the additional organs a full Space Marine is supposed to have, because Steve decided to play a Ministorum Priest Trainee ?
It also fits the 40K stting better that a rookie Astra Militarum character isn't on par with a starting Space Marine character.
Having played the old TSR Marvel Superheros game, which was terrible at balancing characters, and games like Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG which had point based tiers of characters, both are playable, but the tiered approach is easier to Game Master, and doesn't leave some PCs feeling useless.
The pertinent information from Ross' interview on Gaming Trend is:
- The system, while it pays homage to TORG Eternity, D&D 5th, and others, is a ground-up build
- Characters, and presumably NPCs, will have "Tiers" that represent their power level, with Tier 1 being gritty, and more advanced Tiers being more epic.
- Tiers will provide balance between disparate PCs - Confirmed that the first campaign is Imperium Nihilus and the seconf is Doom of the Eldar[/list]
This month's social media section is going to be lighter, because we have quite a bit of information in the Designer Diary. We have had a few new interviews come out since the last newsletter, so be sure to check our Twitter or Facebook feeds for those links.
The big thing I want to remind people about is the Ulisses North America Forums, where we have a dedicated Wrath & Glory section. I know there isn't much to discuss right now, but we're starting to see a little bit of traffic. In particular, I wanted to mention that the moderator for just the Wrath & Glory forums is Wendelyn Reischl, who you will meet in more detail below.
With that, I will leave it to Ross to introduce the team!
-Eric Simon, Social Media Coordinator, Ulisses North America
Designer Diary: Meet the Team
Hello readers, Ross Watson from Ulisses North America here. One of the best things about working on Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay: Wrath & Glory is that I get to collaborate with a highly talented and creative set of designers. The Wrath & Glory design team features some truly great writers, and it is an honor to work with them on this project.
Some of these people have worked with me several times in the past, like Owen Barnes (who has the distinction of writing for every single version of Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay), Andrea Gausman, and Will Thrasher. Others are brand new to the RPG industry, like Wendelyn Reischl and Stephen Rhodes. Neophyte or veteran, the Wrath & Glory team are no stranger to understanding games and the grim darkness of the far future. Some are scribes who have written deep and engaging novels for the Black Library, some have crafted compelling experiences in video games, some have built amazingly well-attended LARPS.
And the team is still growing. The individuals I am highlighting today are just those involved with the initial products for Wrath & Glory! Many more books are planned and we have more writers and designers who will join us as the line grows.
Today, I am pleased to have this opportunity to introduce the initial roster for the Wrath & Glory design team:
- Owen Barnes
- Ben Counter
- Aaron Dembski-Bowden - John Dunn
- Andrea Gausman
- Jeff Hall
- Bill Keyes
- W. Jason Peck
- Wendelyn A. Reischl
- Andy Smillie
- Will Thrasher
Ulisses posted an interview with James Layton of the Grim Dark Podcast - posted here - who had just playtested the game.
New info:
--- The game achieves the fast-paced, action-oriented, 40K feel
--- Critical hits, which use a card deck are vivid and fun
--- All the 40K archtypes you would expect are present
--- The game is quick to learn and all the info you need in on your character sheet
Greetings, Wrath & Glory fans! I’m very pleased to talk about one of the main features of our game: the dice system. When I first began work on the design for Wrath & Glory, I knew that I wanted something that would work well for an Imperial Guardsman facing down a Genstealer Cultist, and at the same time provide a framework for the Rogue Trader performing a delicate negotiation with an Eldar Farseer. I wanted a system that would be easy to learn and provide a good amount of depth without plunging into a well of complexity.
You may have seen some of the videos or heard some of the interviews where I’ve spoken about Wrath & Glory as a “d6 dice pool system.” And that is exactly what it is, inspired by some great examples of other systems from the past that I’ve enjoyed, by other elements of modern game design, and by my own tweaks and innovations.
The basics: to accomplish most tasks in Wrath & Glory, you assemble a dice pool of d6s (commonly adding an attribute and the appropriate skill) and make a roll. Any dice with a result of 1-3 are considered “failures,” any dice with a result of 4-5 count as one success (an “icon”) and dice with a result of 6 count as two successes (an “exalted icon”). You count up the icons you achieved on the roll and compare it to the test’s DN, or Difficulty Number, to determine if you passed or failed the test.
Spoiler:
In this image, you can see that I rolled four failures, three icons, and one exalted icon. That’s a total of 5 icons (2 for the exalted icon from the dice result of 6, plus one each for the dice that made a result of 4 or 5). A standard test in Wrath & Glory has a DN of 3, so this roll would be a success for most rolls.
Remember that a result of a 6 is special – this is called an exalted icon, and counts for two regular icons. In Wrath & Glory, you can also “shift” your exalted icons (the dice that roll a 6) from the initial test to enhance the effect. You can gain more information, improve the quality of your success, or even speed up the time required to achieve the goal for which you rolled the test in the first place. Shifting dice from an attack roll grants you more dice for damage.
The Wrath Dice
For all of these images, you’ll note that one of the dice is a different colour. In Wrath & Glory, all tests include one dice that is somewhat special: this is called the Wrath dice. The Wrath dice is rolled just like a regular d6 in your dice pool, but the Wrath dice has special effects that occur if it rolls a result of a 1 or a 6. For these rolls, I used a red-coloured d6 to represent the Wrath Dice.
Spoiler:
In this image, the Wrath dice has rolled a 1. This is known as a “complication,” and it means that something has happened during the test (regardless of whether the test succeeds or fails!) that creates a negative situation in the player character’s current scene. If this was a Persuasion test to impress an Imperial Governor, for example, the complication might mean that while your character made a good impression overall, the Governor’s most trusted aide harbours a grudge against outsiders. Complications are not meant to be punitive, but rather to create an interesting plot point.
Spoiler:
In this next image, the Wrath dice has rolled a 6. Like other results of 6, this counts as an exalted icon and provides two icons towards the success of the test. Also like other results of 6, this exalted icon may be shifted to enhance the effects of the test. However, a Wrath dice result of 6 (again, independent of the test’s success or failure) is also a moment where the player characters shine, either in victory or defeat, and the group gains a point of a resource called Glory – which is something we will discuss at another time.
Now you’ve gotten a glimpse at the basics of the Wrath & Glory dice system. Keep an eye on the Ulisses North America website for more details about the game, and sign up for our newsletter to get this information early.
-Ross Watson, Product Line Manager
The simplified target numbers mechanic is reminisent of the "heroic" D6 games that WEG produced (Hercules, DC).
Both of those systems can easily be played with standard D6 but also lend to using custom dice with (3 Failures, 2 Success, 1 Exalted Success), so I'm expecting Wrath & Glory dice to follow.
Yeah, calling successes and critical successes "icons" and "exalted icons" smacks of there being custom d6s coming.
I'll be honest, unless they come up with something that really, really wows me somehow, I'll probably just stick with the 40K setting pack I'll have written up for my group in FFG's Genesys system by then. If the game stays as some hodge-podge of WEG d6 and Shadowrun d6 with some sort of Fate Point...I mean, Glory addon on...well, they'll need something else. Still, plenty of time for them to come up with something unique, and I *do* like dice pool mechanics. We'll see.
Chairman Aeon wrote:Updated d6 Legends system, TAKE MY MONEY!!!
Pretty much what I was thinking.
Red_Five wrote:I wonder how big the pools are going to get.
No real way to know, but they did say that 3 succeses were an average difficulty, so you would want 5-6 dice for that.
A lot of WEG D6 Games had Characters Attribute range of about 2-5D, plus a cap of 2 additional dice for starting skills, with a 5D pool of dice considered what a proffesional would have in their skill pool.
Just snowballing here, but average human attribute for a player character was 3D, add 2D for training, and you get your 5D.
Using Star Wars D6 I could make a starting character like:
Catachan Astra Militarum Guardsman
DEX 3D FireArms 5D Grenades 4D Stealth 4D
KNO 3D Survival 5D
MEC 2D
PER 4D
STR 4D Brawling 5D
TEC 2D
Equipment: Lasgun, 2 Spare Ammo Packs, Standard Issue Survival Pack, Light Stick, The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer
Hnng. I hope that at least if they just end up retreading the old material in terms of the writing, we get loads of new artwork. Plenty of old art as well mind, but since this is likely to be the only source of WHF material for the next decade at least and perhaps forever I hope it's packed full of new stuff as well.
I think so. That was a good "hnng" not a bad "hnng", I could have been clearer, I was expressing a hope that they'd continue in that vein rather than just reusing older material to bulk out the interior of the books.
Alpharius wrote: VERY much a call back for WHFRP 1.0 - I love it!
It definitely is a call back.
Don't care much for the change in artstyle though. Not nearly as grim. Though a LOT of that is the weirdly proportioned rat ogre vs the classic ogre.
Skaven and floppy hats with feathers in, I approve
When is this starter set and main rule book coming out, along with the Wrath and Glory RPG? I heard something about December but I may got that confused with the announcement.
Wrath & Glory Designer Diary: Tiers
Today’s designer diary is all about power. Warhammer 40,000 possesses a depth of scope and scale that, in and of itself, is one of the defining characteristics of its setting. The grim darkness of the far future is home to creatures ranging from Gretchin to towering Hive Tyrants, from a Tech-Priest up to a Squiggoth and even that is just the tip of the iceberg. What I’m trying to get across here is that there are a lot of power levels to keep in mind when you’re designing an RPG for Warhammer 40,000.
Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay: Wrath & Glory keeps its focus on individual heroes—the player characters. While this helps narrow the scope a bit, there is still a staggering amount of variety and options to choose from. Some very popular character types include the superhuman Space Marines and the all-too-human soldiers of the Imperial Guard. One of the most common questions I have been asked about the design of Wrath & Glory is, “How do you balance things so I can have different types of characters in the same group?”
The answer is simple; we have designated certain “Tiers” of play, ranging from 1-5 (with options to expand that range). Each tier represents a particular power level, and considers various factors: what kinds of character archetypes are appropriate, what kinds of challenges those characters will face, and what kinds of limits are imposed on dice pools. In Wrath & Glory, the players and the Game Master decide what kind of Tier they wish to play for their campaign.
Tier 1, for example, represents a power level appropriate for characters who are not epic heroes—these are the Imperial Guardsmen, the Inquisitional Acolytes, the Hive gangers, the Eldar Corsairs or the Ork boyz. Tier 1 characters are expected to deal with appropriate challenges. This means that the dice pools and the kinds of enemies they are likely to face are also calibrated according to the Tier. A Tier 1 enemy might be a group of cultists led by a crazed mutant, or a single genestealer might be the “main villain” at the climax of a session.
Once more, to clarify: Tiers indicate a particular power level in terms of the game experience. Tiers limit archetypes, dice pool limits, and enemies to what is appropriate for that power level.
A Tier 3 game, by contrast, is calibrated for a much more powerful and capable group of heroes. Power Levels are not necessarily graded on simple combat ability, either. Psychic powers, authority, access to particular wargear, and other factors are involved in what determines an archetype’s starting Tier. A Tactical Space Marine is a Tier 3 archetype, as is an Eldar Warlock, as is an Imperial Commissar. At Tier 3, a genestealer might be just one of several nameless enemies they encounter during a mission, whilst something like a genestealer cult patriarch would be likely a named, climactic adversary.
Higher tiers also involve larger dice pools, increasing both the reality and the instinctual ‘feel’ of a greater level of power and impact on the game. The experience of a Tier 3 game is substantially different than that of a Tier 1 game, and that is reflected in the game rules.
While all of this information on tiers is important, it is just one piece of the puzzle. There is another, partnered mechanic that I will get into next time that delves into how a lower-Tier character archetype can take part in a higher-Tier game and engage with the rules on the same playing field as a Space Marine or an Eldar Warlock. Put simply, part of our design allows for this, and taking a Tier 1 Inquisitional Acolyte and ascending them to a Tier 3 game is very possible—and means that the character has a reason to be there.
-Ross Watson, Product Line Manager
Accompanying the newsletter is one of my favourite pieces of 40k art, ever:
IMPERIAL KNIGHT PLAYER CHARACTER OPTION CONFIRMED.
Wrath & Glory Designer Diary: Tiers
Today’s designer diary is all about power. Warhammer 40,000 possesses a depth of scope and scale that, in and of itself, is one of the defining characteristics of its setting. The grim darkness of the far future is home to creatures ranging from Gretchin to towering Hive Tyrants, from a Tech-Priest up to a Squiggoth and even that is just the tip of the iceberg. What I’m trying to get across here is that there are a lot of power levels to keep in mind when you’re designing an RPG for Warhammer 40,000.
Warhammer 40,000 Roleplay: Wrath & Glory keeps its focus on individual heroes—the player characters. While this helps narrow the scope a bit, there is still a staggering amount of variety and options to choose from. Some very popular character types include the superhuman Space Marines and the all-too-human soldiers of the Imperial Guard. One of the most common questions I have been asked about the design of Wrath & Glory is, “How do you balance things so I can have different types of characters in the same group?”
The answer is simple; we have designated certain “Tiers” of play, ranging from 1-5 (with options to expand that range). Each tier represents a particular power level, and considers various factors: what kinds of character archetypes are appropriate, what kinds of challenges those characters will face, and what kinds of limits are imposed on dice pools. In Wrath & Glory, the players and the Game Master decide what kind of Tier they wish to play for their campaign.
Tier 1, for example, represents a power level appropriate for characters who are not epic heroes—these are the Imperial Guardsmen, the Inquisitional Acolytes, the Hive gangers, the Eldar Corsairs or the Ork boyz. Tier 1 characters are expected to deal with appropriate challenges. This means that the dice pools and the kinds of enemies they are likely to face are also calibrated according to the Tier. A Tier 1 enemy might be a group of cultists led by a crazed mutant, or a single genestealer might be the “main villain” at the climax of a session.
Once more, to clarify: Tiers indicate a particular power level in terms of the game experience. Tiers limit archetypes, dice pool limits, and enemies to what is appropriate for that power level.
A Tier 3 game, by contrast, is calibrated for a much more powerful and capable group of heroes. Power Levels are not necessarily graded on simple combat ability, either. Psychic powers, authority, access to particular wargear, and other factors are involved in what determines an archetype’s starting Tier. A Tactical Space Marine is a Tier 3 archetype, as is an Eldar Warlock, as is an Imperial Commissar. At Tier 3, a genestealer might be just one of several nameless enemies they encounter during a mission, whilst something like a genestealer cult patriarch would be likely a named, climactic adversary.
Higher tiers also involve larger dice pools, increasing both the reality and the instinctual ‘feel’ of a greater level of power and impact on the game. The experience of a Tier 3 game is substantially different than that of a Tier 1 game, and that is reflected in the game rules.
While all of this information on tiers is important, it is just one piece of the puzzle. There is another, partnered mechanic that I will get into next time that delves into how a lower-Tier character archetype can take part in a higher-Tier game and engage with the rules on the same playing field as a Space Marine or an Eldar Warlock. Put simply, part of our design allows for this, and taking a Tier 1 Inquisitional Acolyte and ascending them to a Tier 3 game is very possible—and means that the character has a reason to be there.
-Ross Watson, Product Line Manager
Accompanying the newsletter is one of my favourite pieces of 40k art, ever:
IMPERIAL KNIGHT PLAYER CHARACTER OPTION CONFIRMED.
Vector Strike wrote: Commissars are tier 3?!? There goes my favourite archetype in all 40k... I bet most groups will play on tiers 1 and 2 :/
As they said, Tiers aren't divided only un "Battle power", but in influence, political power, etc... and a Commisar even if from a combat perspective is just a normal human, has a ton of political power and influence.
Firstly, I doubt it; Deathwatch shifted a few copies, didn't it? Secondly, you can start at lower tiers and progress to higher ones. Start as a Stgormtrooper and join the Commisariat.
Galas wrote: I assume a Imperial Knight is a Tier 5 character... that will be like Roleplaying Pacific Rim I assume
More like Mechwarrior if we are lucky - hopefully they will expand the info on households - that would be really interesting in my view - the first codex had some good but it got chopped in the second.
If I had to guess tier 2-3 will be where most groups want to play. Gives you access to powerful options without the absurdity I imagine tier 4-5 will have, and if it's anything liken previous rpgs tier 1 will be fairly brutal.
Ashiraya wrote: I would surely imagine Eldar would be tier 2 rather than 1.
I would too but that isn't what the article states. With how even the average centuries old eldar civilian's reflexes being described as incredible along with their native psychic abilities even without training, I can'ttier 1 see that at equivalent to tier 1 Private Joe Schmo, a newly inducted member of the 123rd Fodder Regiment.
Ashiraya wrote: I would surely imagine Eldar would be tier 2 rather than 1.
I would too but that isn't what the article states. With how even the average centuries old eldar civilian's reflexes being described as incredible along with their native psychic abilities even without training, I can'ttier 1 see that at equivalent to tier 1 Private Joe Schmo, a newly inducted member of the 123rd Fodder Regiment.
This kind of issue was inevitable though, as soon as they decided to try and take in the whole of 40K in one game engine rather than the more focused(and some would say more sensible) approach of the previous RPGs there were bound to be at least a few things that seem out of place or wrongly categorised. You simply can't map the whole of 40K, or even just the "highlights" of 40K, onto such a small number of "tiers" without generating some oddities.
Ashiraya wrote: I would surely imagine Eldar would be tier 2 rather than 1.
I would too but that isn't what the article states. With how even the average centuries old eldar civilian's reflexes being described as incredible along with their native psychic abilities even without training, I can'ttier 1 see that at equivalent to tier 1 Private Joe Schmo, a newly inducted member of the 123rd Fodder Regiment.
Thye should do it that way with the old MSH ability ratings - so a Eldar would have Remarkable agility and a Imperial Knight would have Monsterous Strength ;0
Interested to see what this ends up like but unless the system is somehow awesome AND different to what I already have in various forms including reskins, I will only really be interested in the fluff, art etc - which I did enjoy with Dark Heresy and its children.
Ashiraya wrote: I would surely imagine Eldar would be tier 2 rather than 1.
I would too but that isn't what the article states. With how even the average centuries old eldar civilian's reflexes being described as incredible along with their native psychic abilities even without training, I can't see that equivalent to tier 1 Private Joe Schmo, a newly inducted member of the 123rd Fodder Regiment.
This kind of issue was inevitable though, as soon as they decided to try and take in the whole of 40K in one game engine rather than the more focused(and some would say more sensible) approach of the previous RPGs there were bound to be at least a few things that seem out of place or wrongly categorised. You simply can't map the whole of 40K, or even just the "highlights" of 40K, onto such a small number of "tiers" without generating some oddities.
True and I agree it's a case of preference. Personally, I'd be comfortable seeing each "race" straddle at least 3 tiers with some starting higher than others (like eldar at 2 or marines at 3). It just seems an odd choice to me to put an eldar corsair at the same tier as a standard guardsmen when there is a (at least for me) more sensible tier 2 option. YMMV.
Ashiraya wrote: I would surely imagine Eldar would be tier 2 rather than 1.
I would too but that isn't what the article states. With how even the average centuries old eldar civilian's reflexes being described as incredible along with their native psychic abilities even without training, I can'ttier 1 see that at equivalent to tier 1 Private Joe Schmo, a newly inducted member of the 123rd Fodder Regiment.
Thye should do it that way with the old MSH ability ratings - so a Eldar would have Remarkable agility and a Imperial Knight would have Monsterous Strength ;0
Don't forget Shift X! Then roll your % Dice and compare results on the chart. Oh no! Red shift!
Yes,.... ummm...... warhammer 40KRPG. I like them.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already, but over on RPG.net one of the posters says that he's writing one of the first adventures for Wrath & Glory and it will be Eldar-only.
Critias on RPG.net wrote:Ross gave me the go ahead to say so (in a recent podcast), but I'm writing one of the first adventures for this mamajama, an Eldar-only romp.
It's cool and exciting and all that, sure, but in the meantime my wife's a little cross because I am so fighting the urge to find seasonal sales and repopulate my old Craftworld list. Like, I'm so jazzed to be working on it that it's taking a lot of willpower not to actively lose money on the project by buying a ton of wargaming stuff.
monarda wrote: I'm not sure if it's been mentioned already, but over on RPG.net one of the posters says that he's writing one of the first adventures for Wrath & Glory and it will be Eldar-only.
Critias on RPG.net wrote:Ross gave me the go ahead to say so (in a recent podcast), but I'm writing one of the first adventures for this mamajama, an Eldar-only romp.
It's cool and exciting and all that, sure, but in the meantime my wife's a little cross because I am so fighting the urge to find seasonal sales and repopulate my old Craftworld list. Like, I'm so jazzed to be working on it that it's taking a lot of willpower not to actively lose money on the project by buying a ton of wargaming stuff.
I'd be surprised about that if it were a solo product. With the refocus on chaos and the imperium this edition in main 40k, I'd expect that to be part of a book with a half dozen adventures including apparently xenos specific POV ones. While I support the inclusion of xenos characters and campaigns, I'd expect the focus and the majority of content to be geared towards imperial players.
warboss wrote: I'd be surprised about that if it were a solo product. With the refocus on chaos and the imperium this edition in main 40k, I'd expect that to be part of a book with a half dozen adventures including apparently xenos specific POV ones. While I support the inclusion of xenos characters and campaigns, I'd expect the focus and the majority of content to be geared towards imperial players.
Why? We were told the first two setting/campaigns would be Imperial then Eldar. And while there is involvement from GW, there doesn't seem to be any decrease on what the game should be or if it has to follow the wargame. In fact it seems GW is very OK with being hands off on this and a few other things. Maybe it's because they trust Ross and team, maybe it's because they don't care and just want big cheques...
Ashiraya wrote: I would surely imagine Eldar would be tier 2 rather than 1.
I would too but that isn't what the article states. With how even the average centuries old eldar civilian's reflexes being described as incredible along with their native psychic abilities even without training, I can'ttier 1 see that at equivalent to tier 1 Private Joe Schmo, a newly inducted member of the 123rd Fodder Regiment.
What if that Eldar never held a gun in his life? Yeah his reflexes are better than a human and he's a minor psyker, but that's not gonna do much if you barely know by which end you're supposed to hold your rifle.
Chopstick wrote: All Eldar civilian have military training, when war come they take up arm and become the Guardian force.
Does it actually state that - I thought the Guardians were Eldar who had been Aspect Warriors in the past but were not now - after all not every Eldar will have moved along the Path of the Warrior.
Chopstick wrote: All Eldar civilian have military training, when war come they take up arm and become the Guardian force.
Does it actually state that - I thought the Guardians were Eldar who had been Aspect Warriors in the past but were not now - after all not every Eldar will have moved along the Path of the Warrior.
Guardian are civilians who do not choose Path of the Warrior. Once go into the Path of the Warrior there was little chance of coming back because the taint of Khaine's red madness, only the Autarch can resist that.
Guardian are trained not only in using weapons, they can also pilot vehicle and control artillery. It is a duty for all Eldar to know how to fight because there're not much of them left.
To quote from the codex " Each Guardian is more than a match for any warrior from the lesser race, all Eldar can play the role of the remorseless killer should the face dictate it"
Also the Guardian mask further enhance their combat ability.
Bobthehero wrote: They do, however I'd question how overwhelmingly good they are when the last time they picked up a shuriken catapult was hundreds of years of ago.
Well maybe they must attend shooting practice every month, just like the men of the village had to attend archery practice to ensure that the militia was up to a basic standard back in the day.
Or perhaps the psycho-plastic of the shuriken catapult grants experience to the Eldar that holds it through mental osmosis.
Then they wouldn't let Guardian pilot vehicle or artilery gun and just deploy them as meat shield like Conscript knowing they could just crash it anyway.
Vyper, Windrider Jet Bike, and Warw alker are all piloted by guardians.
Chopstick wrote: All Eldar civilian have military training, when war come they take up arm and become the Guardian force.
Does it actually state that - I thought the Guardians were Eldar who had been Aspect Warriors in the past but were not now - after all not every Eldar will have moved along the Path of the Warrior.
Guardian are civilians who do not choose Path of the Warrior. Once go into the Path of the Warrior there was little chance of coming back because the taint of Khaine's red madness, only the Autarch can resist that.
Guardian are trained not only in using weapons, they can also pilot vehicle and control artillery. It is a duty for all Eldar to know how to fight because there're not much of them left.
To quote from the codex " Each Guardian is more than a match for any warrior from the lesser race, all Eldar can play the role of the remorseless killer should the face dictate it"
Also the Guardian mask further enhance their combat ability.
Many Eldar tread the Path of the Warrior - its the Path of the Exarch that is near inescapable - same as the Path of the Warlock versus the Path of the Farseer.
Actually, Warlocks are (were? I read this in 1990, so it might have changed) seers who have previously been warriors - the Warlock role is an amalgamation of the two skillsets. Seers who haven't been warriors are bonesingers or other non-combat roles that the Codex doesn't go into.
I feel like some of you don't realize that the codices tend to be written from the perspective of the featured race, so they're (intentionally) full of biased statements and propaganda. Each race believes it has the greatest warriors and has the sole right to rule the galaxy.
Chopstick wrote: All Eldar civilian have military training, when war come they take up arm and become the Guardian force.
Does it actually state that - I thought the Guardians were Eldar who had been Aspect Warriors in the past but were not now - after all not every Eldar will have moved along the Path of the Warrior.
Guardian are civilians who do not choose Path of the Warrior. Once go into the Path of the Warrior there was little chance of coming back because the taint of Khaine's red madness, only the Autarch can resist that.
Guardian are trained not only in using weapons, they can also pilot vehicle and control artillery. It is a duty for all Eldar to know how to fight because there're not much of them left.
To quote from the codex " Each Guardian is more than a match for any warrior from the lesser race, all Eldar can play the role of the remorseless killer should the face dictate it"
Also the Guardian mask further enhance their combat ability.
Many Eldar tread the Path of the Warrior - its the Path of the Exarch that is near inescapable - same as the Path of the Warlock versus the Path of the Farseer.
There is no “path of the exarch” - an exarch is by definition one who has become trapped on the path of the warrior. Anyone who is not an exarch can turn aside from the path of the warrior and choose another; those who do can become Guardians later, and whatever happens, having trodden the path of the warrior once will forever twist all their future endeavours: seers become warlocks, bonesingers become weaponsmiths, and leaders become autarchs.
As for guardians, only the Black Guardians of Ulthwe are regular civilians trained as warriors as only Ulthwe is known to practice conscription (or the Eldar equivalent at least) - all others are once-warriors who have taken up arms again, touching lightly on their former train8ng to separate themselves from the deeds they must do to survive the battlefield.
Chopstick wrote: All Eldar civilian have military training, when war come they take up arm and become the Guardian force.
Does it actually state that - I thought the Guardians were Eldar who had been Aspect Warriors in the past but were not now - after all not every Eldar will have moved along the Path of the Warrior.
Guardian are civilians who do not choose Path of the Warrior. Once go into the Path of the Warrior there was little chance of coming back because the taint of Khaine's red madness, only the Autarch can resist that.
Guardian are trained not only in using weapons, they can also pilot vehicle and control artillery. It is a duty for all Eldar to know how to fight because there're not much of them left.
To quote from the codex " Each Guardian is more than a match for any warrior from the lesser race, all Eldar can play the role of the remorseless killer should the face dictate it"
Also the Guardian mask further enhance their combat ability.
Many Eldar tread the Path of the Warrior - its the Path of the Exarch that is near inescapable - same as the Path of the Warlock versus the Path of the Farseer.
There is no “path of the exarch” - an exarch is by definition one who has become trapped on the path of the warrior. Anyone who is not an exarch can turn aside from the path of the warrior and choose another; those who do can become Guardians later, and whatever happens, having trodden the path of the warrior once will forever twist all their future endeavours: seers become warlocks, bonesingers become weaponsmiths, and leaders become autarchs.
As for guardians, only the Black Guardians of Ulthwe are regular civilians trained as warriors as only Ulthwe is known to practice conscription (or the Eldar equivalent at least) - all others are once-warriors who have taken up arms again, touching lightly on their former train8ng to separate themselves from the deeds they must do to survive the battlefield.
Not true at all, all Craftworlders can become Guardians if need be regardless of whether they have walked the Path of the Warrior or not, for most Craftworlds there's just not enough current or former Aspect Warriors to form a standing army.
Kroem wrote:Hmm they look a little sterile and realistic to me, all my favourite Warhammer art is a bit more impressionist and atmospheric.
Both have their place IMO. I love some of the more impressionist stuff for large battle scenes epsecially where you're looking at the picture as a whole instead of focusing on one subject. Even some of the weird stuff that filtered out of the mind of John Blanche 30 years ago has its place! *runs for the hills in preparation for the Blanchist purgations squad retaliation*
Galas wrote:Those work for "atmosphere" artwork. But when you want drawings representing player characters, you want them to be realistic and descriptive.
Agreed. For art representing a single character, clarity takes precedence over atmosphere in my book. YMMV.
Kroem wrote: Hmm they look a little sterile and realistic to me, all my favourite Warhammer art is a bit more impressionist and atmospheric.
Yeah, I don't think the style works for 40K. Too clean and 'modern.'
Their gear looks clean and freshly laundered, the book looks mass-produced at printer, and the faces are a little too comic book/graphic novel style.
Even the scar on the commissar's face is there to accentuate her looks rather than be a physical reminder of a serious wound. The priest should have some stubble or something. He looks like he goes to college and just dresses up on weekends.
IIRC, could be wrong though, the artist also has a background in doing art for comic books, which would go a long way towards explaining the style used.
That's what I was thinking. I kept thinking that they're not as realistic as the class/rank portraits from the other 40KRPGs. They're more cartoony, but cartoony is 100% the wrong word.
Comic booky though, that covers it!
They're certainly... flatter, than things like this or this.
As an aside, typing on a keyboard again is such a relief. Being computerless since the 25th was a fething nightmare...
It'll always be a problem with freelancers, not ragging on them, but rather either they don't know a lot about the setting or have a style that's radically different from the established norm (looking at you, autrocious Space Marine Battles covers). It certainly doesn't help that the commissar art is based on a 3rd party sculpt from a French company.
After watching the artstation of various freelance artists that GW uses, and comparing their work for GW with their own work, or even their fan work of warhammer, I have realised that as much as we gak on freelances, many times the quality issues have to do with the direction GW gives them.
For example, this artist, you just need to look at his arstation to see how skilled he is.
But the, boom, official GW art
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/NboOb And compare that piece with this warhammer fanart he did
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/4ND9l The differences are obvious. I really like this mans official work, but you can see, his "personal" style his completely different". But probably to dark to NuGW.
Like I said, not ragging on them, as there are some out there who are fething talented and have produced some of the best pieces of art (IMHO) out there.
Though sometimes I do think that GW would be benefit from having a larger inhouse art department again, like back in the day. Artists still produced art their using distinctive style, but at the same time you could look at it and say with a nod that yes, it belongs in the setting. But on the flipside, yes it would be ruined by the current directive they work under, which is to copy the poses and equipment of the miniatures, which leaves little room for creativity.
Though from the look of things, Wrath & Glory is free from that at least. Here's hoping that the next art preview will be of an Imperial Noble.
BrookM wrote: It'll always be a problem with freelancers, not ragging on them, but rather either they don't know a lot about the setting or have a style that's radically different from the established norm (looking at you, autrocious Space Marine Battles covers). It certainly doesn't help that the commissar art is based on a 3rd party sculpt from a French company.
This would've been much better:
Art is always going to be subjective - I like both images of the Commissar but I find the second image a bit too like Anime.
I will take this dude in either style over the art in this thread. 40K is a visual setting and the art in this thread looks like they were drawn by someone oblivious to 30 years of 40K art history. I'm kind of worried about the game now.
Galas wrote: Is that an Asian (Does even Asia exist in w40k?!) Sister Hospitaler? Thats awesomesauce!
Does Asia itself as a continent exist in 40k? No. Earth is a sterile, dry, desolate throneworld whose oceans have long ago been drained in the lore meaning that there are no more individual continents. That doesn't mean the races that inhabited individual areas don't exist individually anymore.
Galas wrote: After watching the artstation of various freelance artists that GW uses, and comparing their work for GW with their own work, or even their fan work of warhammer, I have realised that as much as we gak on freelances, many times the quality issues have to do with the direction GW gives them.
For example, this artist, you just need to look at his arstation to see how skilled he is.
But the, boom, official GW art
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/NboOb And compare that piece with this warhammer fanart he did
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/4ND9l The differences are obvious. I really like this mans official work, but you can see, his "personal" style his completely different". But probably to dark to NuGW.
I sure love the second black n white picture, but theres nothing wrong at all with the AoS in the first picture! Very 80s, powermetal!
Then again, I have always loved the esthetics of AoS so opinions
I may like this character art better if it wasn't on a clean, white background. I agree with the assessment of these being well-done, but not really fitting with my idea of 40k art. I prefer the more baroque styles from Dark Heresy. Speaking of which, getting ready to start up a campaign in the next couple weeks. Haven't played DH since college!
I mean, they're nice enough pieces of art, but I don't buy expensive RPG books for "nice enough" depictions of stuff there's already a lot of really cool depictions of.
This is why I was reticent about the basic concept of doing an "all-in-one" RPG version of 40K, it's not going to provide anywhere near the level of detailed new material that the older RPGs did.
I wonder with this weekend's announcement of further Custodes models and a codex if they'll include them as well. If bog standard tactical marines are Tier 3 then I could see starting Custodes power armor guys as Tier 4 potentially.
They are already peerless fighters and have no concern other than defending the Emperor so not great for player characters.
They could make good high level enemies, but as they only can be found on Terra it might be difficult to explain why there is a room full of Custodes in a dungeon in the Segmentum Obscurus!
The recent developments in background material have already clarified why the Custodes are leaving Terra officially for the first time in millennia: A threat to the Emperor can come from everywhere and must be fought head on.
Yodhrin wrote: I mean, they're nice enough pieces of art, but I don't buy expensive RPG books for "nice enough" depictions of stuff there's already a lot of really cool depictions of.
This is why I was reticent about the basic concept of doing an "all-in-one" RPG version of 40K, it's not going to provide anywhere near the level of detailed new material that the older RPGs did.
Isn’t the main book just going to be the mechanics and the sourcebooks/campaign books will set the specific PC races and character classes?
I don't really agree with that strategy, if you start dispersing your lifeguard of foot around the galaxy then you fatally weaken the protection around the person you are supposed to protect.
However I cannot dispute that it can happen, the Praetorians for example started out as an elite military unit but progressed into more of a government ministry exacting the Emperors will with its members more like civil servants than soldiers.
There will always be a strong contingent of Custodians who will never leave Terra after entering the throne room itself. Only instead of policing Terra itself from the shadows, or sneaking off-world on secret missions of their own, they are now going to war openly, doing something other than patrolling the halls and hunting the odd xeno or traitor let loose as sport.
The novels Emperor's Legion and to a lesser extent Carrion Throne both shed light on how the Custodes functioned before and after it all went tits up.
sneaking off-world on secret missions of their own
Haha now I'm imagining a monstrous man in massive, garish gold armour tiptoeing around :-p
I suppose if you can have alien characters there is potential for Custodes to be enemies in a campaign, however the threat to the Imperium would have to be cataclysmic to warrant their attendance and they should be one of the hardest enemies in the book.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of aliens do we know which ones will be playable?
It says 'classic xenos' so that potentially puts Necrons and Tau out of the picture as they are new kids on the block.
That just leaves Eldar, Orks and Tyranids.
I can't see how you could role play a Tyranid (outside of a Zoat I suppose) so that leaves Eldar and Orks! Role playing an Ork sounds like a right laugh :-)
Yodhrin wrote: I mean, they're nice enough pieces of art, but I don't buy expensive RPG books for "nice enough" depictions of stuff there's already a lot of really cool depictions of.
This is why I was reticent about the basic concept of doing an "all-in-one" RPG version of 40K, it's not going to provide anywhere near the level of detailed new material that the older RPGs did.
Isn’t the main book just going to be the mechanics and the sourcebooks/campaign books will set the specific PC races and character classes?
When I talk about detailed new material, I refer to stuff like The Lathe Worlds, or the specific info about various Calixis sector criminal groups and societies etc. The new RPG's scope is "everything in 40K", from fresh-pressed Guardsman all the way up to the most tippy-top elite soldiers and even apparently Imperial Knights. I liked when the characters come out of the specific setting, rather than defining the characters down to the most minute detail but giving only the broadest strokes for where they are and what they're doing.
Yodhrin wrote: I mean, they're nice enough pieces of art, but I don't buy expensive RPG books for "nice enough" depictions of stuff there's already a lot of really cool depictions of.
This is why I was reticent about the basic concept of doing an "all-in-one" RPG version of 40K, it's not going to provide anywhere near the level of detailed new material that the older RPGs did.
Isn’t the main book just going to be the mechanics and the sourcebooks/campaign books will set the specific PC races and character classes?
When I talk about detailed new material, I refer to stuff like The Lathe Worlds, or the specific info about various Calixis sector criminal groups and societies etc. The new RPG's scope is "everything in 40K", from fresh-pressed Guardsman all the way up to the most tippy-top elite soldiers and even apparently Imperial Knights. I liked when the characters come out of the specific setting, rather than defining the characters down to the most minute detail but giving only the broadest strokes for where they are and what they're doing.
Well, it is a roleplaying game. There is a vast amount of background material for 40k already available. Coming up with a good setting for a campaign would be trivially easy even if Wrath and Glory doesn't provide any details. I do hope they will provide a detailed setting though. I absolutely love reading through RPG setting material.
Yodhrin wrote: I mean, they're nice enough pieces of art, but I don't buy expensive RPG books for "nice enough" depictions of stuff there's already a lot of really cool depictions of.
This is why I was reticent about the basic concept of doing an "all-in-one" RPG version of 40K, it's not going to provide anywhere near the level of detailed new material that the older RPGs did.
Isn’t the main book just going to be the mechanics and the sourcebooks/campaign books will set the specific PC races and character classes?
When I talk about detailed new material, I refer to stuff like The Lathe Worlds, or the specific info about various Calixis sector criminal groups and societies etc. The new RPG's scope is "everything in 40K", from fresh-pressed Guardsman all the way up to the most tippy-top elite soldiers and even apparently Imperial Knights. I liked when the characters come out of the specific setting, rather than defining the characters down to the most minute detail but giving only the broadest strokes for where they are and what they're doing.
Why don’t you wait to see what actually transpires before you complain?
I have everything released for Deathwatch, Black Crusade and Dark Hetesy 1, and a few of the Rogue Trader and Only War books - I enjoyed all the new detail as much as anyone, but I cannot wait for a new, clean, fresh approach first and foremost. I’m excited - whether there is “new” fluff content or not is neither here nor there at the moment.
First of all, I want to say I’m very pleased about the overwhelmingly positive reactions from our fans to the character archetype artwork. It is a real tribute to the artist, Alberto Bontempi, who is doing great deeds illustrating the archetypes in Wrath & Glory. This time around, I’m going to talk a little bit about character generation in Wrath & Glory.
One key thing to know from the start: Wrath & Glory does not lock your character into a pre-determined path. Each archetype, such as Imperial Commissar, has its own distinct flavor and special ability to set it apart from the others. Once you’ve chosen your species (such as human, ork, eldar, and so forth), and selected your archetype, Wrath & Glory’s character generation is very free-form, letting you build the character you want.
Characters in Wrath & Glory are composed of several factors. We’ve already mentioned species and archetype, and in addition, characters have a series of attributes and skills to determine their particular focus in the game. Your character’s background informs where they came from or where they are going in the game’s narrative. The hero may have a few, rare Talents that give them some extra options and abilities. Plus, each archetype provides some of your character’s equipment—gear that you may also customize if you wish.
Character generation also provides your hero with Keywords. These represent your character’s alliances, allegiances, and contacts. Many times, these are appropriate for your chosen species and archetype, but there are definitely ways to gain additional keywords or to replace one of your existing keywords with another of your choosing. Keywords are important, because they help inform you and the Game Master as to what connections your character has to the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Having the right keyword can mean the difference if you are trying to acquire a rare item, seeking information amongst certain factions, or trying to curry favor with a species not your own.
warboss wrote: Why final? No marine previews? That's a surprising change from GW's usual schtick.
Have they said that they'll be doing separate books for various races, or is that just speculation?
If they're doing separate ones, I can see how they'd want to do a marine book second instead of first (at least for my group, we probably wouldn't get into a game where women aren't allowed to be PCs).
Personally, I think I'm looking forward to an Ork book. I mean, that'd be really awesome.
First of all, I want to say I’m very pleased about the overwhelmingly positive reactions from our fans to the character archetype artwork. It is a real tribute to the artist, Alberto Bontempi, who is doing great deeds illustrating the archetypes in Wrath & Glory. This time around, I’m going to talk a little bit about character generation in Wrath & Glory.
One key thing to know from the start: Wrath & Glory does not lock your character into a pre-determined path. Each archetype, such as Imperial Commissar, has its own distinct flavor and special ability to set it apart from the others. Once you’ve chosen your species (such as human, ork, eldar, and so forth), and selected your archetype, Wrath & Glory’s character generation is very free-form, letting you build the character you want.
Characters in Wrath & Glory are composed of several factors. We’ve already mentioned species and archetype, and in addition, characters have a series of attributes and skills to determine their particular focus in the game. Your character’s background informs where they came from or where they are going in the game’s narrative. The hero may have a few, rare Talents that give them some extra options and abilities. Plus, each archetype provides some of your character’s equipment—gear that you may also customize if you wish.
Character generation also provides your hero with Keywords. These represent your character’s alliances, allegiances, and contacts. Many times, these are appropriate for your chosen species and archetype, but there are definitely ways to gain additional keywords or to replace one of your existing keywords with another of your choosing. Keywords are important, because they help inform you and the Game Master as to what connections your character has to the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Having the right keyword can mean the difference if you are trying to acquire a rare item, seeking information amongst certain factions, or trying to curry favor with a species not your own.
-Ross Watson, Product Line Manager
If I change the <Regiment> keyword from my Imperial Guard veteran character to <High Lord of Terra>, will I be able to control the imperium under the orders of Guilliman?
Kroem wrote: I think the comic art style is cool in its own way, but I love the old black and white styles that used to be all over the codices.
Maybe Fabius Bile can grow a Wayne England clone to provide artwork for the new RPG book?
I think that Wayne is my favorite of the old GW artists, but I don't think it belongs in RPG iconic characters.
Wayne's work is rife with mood, but the actual details are unrealistic to the point where it doesn't really help a player to imagine a PC. For example, I'm not totally sure whether this character is a mutant, or if the exagerated proportions are just a stylistic thing.
Personally, I'm really happy to see 40k universe artwork in different styles.
If I change the <Regiment> keyword from my Imperial Guard veteran character to <High Lord of Terra>, will I be able to control the imperium under the orders of Guilliman?
It is an RPG. Do you want to play a group of high lords? Well, if your GM is ok with is, then that can be the concept for your campaign.
First of all, I want to say I’m very pleased about the overwhelmingly positive reactions from our fans to the character archetype artwork. It is a real tribute to the artist, Alberto Bontempi, who is doing great deeds illustrating the archetypes in Wrath & Glory. This time around, I’m going to talk a little bit about character generation in Wrath & Glory.
One key thing to know from the start: Wrath & Glory does not lock your character into a pre-determined path. Each archetype, such as Imperial Commissar, has its own distinct flavor and special ability to set it apart from the others. Once you’ve chosen your species (such as human, ork, eldar, and so forth), and selected your archetype, Wrath & Glory’s character generation is very free-form, letting you build the character you want.
Characters in Wrath & Glory are composed of several factors. We’ve already mentioned species and archetype, and in addition, characters have a series of attributes and skills to determine their particular focus in the game. Your character’s background informs where they came from or where they are going in the game’s narrative. The hero may have a few, rare Talents that give them some extra options and abilities. Plus, each archetype provides some of your character’s equipment—gear that you may also customize if you wish.
Character generation also provides your hero with Keywords. These represent your character’s alliances, allegiances, and contacts. Many times, these are appropriate for your chosen species and archetype, but there are definitely ways to gain additional keywords or to replace one of your existing keywords with another of your choosing. Keywords are important, because they help inform you and the Game Master as to what connections your character has to the Warhammer 40,000 universe. Having the right keyword can mean the difference if you are trying to acquire a rare item, seeking information amongst certain factions, or trying to curry favor with a species not your own.
-Ross Watson, Product Line Manager
If I change the <Regiment> keyword from my Imperial Guard veteran character to <High Lord of Terra>, will I be able to control the imperium under the orders of Guilliman?
Such low ambitions... Why not change your keyword to <God-Emperor of Man> instead?
If I change the <Regiment> keyword from my Imperial Guard veteran character to <High Lord of Terra>, will I be able to control the imperium under the orders of Guilliman?
It is an RPG. Do you want to play a group of high lords? Well, if your GM is ok with is, then that can be the concept for your campaign.
I know, I know, I was making a joke about the problem in the first weeks of 8th where people arguee that you could change the <Regiment> keyword and the <Chapter> keyword to the same thing and use them together (Like calling a Imperial Guard regiment <Ultramarines> )
Custodes could be a level 4 character, while Imperial Knights level 5, or maybe even beyond.
Knights are something I am hoping for, they could make for a fun diversion from the regular campaign by letting the players stomp around for a bit in something a few power levels over their current predicament, or to act as their own Deus Ex Machina should the situation call for it.
I'm still skeptical of this power level system. I'll wait until I see the actual rules before making a judgement, but I foresee a lot of arguments between players and GMs because one guy refuses to play if he can't be a Space Wolf even though this was clearly billed as a Guardsman campaign.
EnTyme wrote: I'm still skeptical of this power level system. I'll wait until I see the actual rules before making a judgement, but I foresee a lot of arguments between players and GMs because one guy refuses to play if he can't be a Space Wolf even though this was clearly billed as a Guardsman campaign.
Whats the difference between a Tier system and a level sistem? What you said is the same as someone that wants to play with his prestige class character with lvl 17 in D&D even when the campaing is for levels 1-5.
And I believe Custodes, if they are playable, will be Tier 5. Remember, tiers aren't just based in combat power. A Commisar is Tier 3 if I remember correctly. They are based too in political power. And Custodes are very high in that regard.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: So with the different power levels of play with in the game, I wonder if at a suitably high level game if I could play a Custodian Guard.
Also looking forward to the possibility of playing as a Knight Pilot, I think that could be a fun sort of campaign.
To me both of those characters are mid level - but I enjoy games at all sorts of leves - have run games where its a bunch of guardsman just trying to sruvive during an invasion to games where the players were involved in the poltical machinations and eventual fate of an entire sub sector.
There's quite a bit of difference. Look at how each FFG system played. Dark Heresy featured relatively normal humans with some political power in a world filled with psychotic fungal ape-men, BDSM slavers, and literal freaking daemons. It played like an investigation game wherein your character could die at any minute from a single botched die roll. Rogue Trader was an exploration game with a little piracy thrown in wherein your characters were pretty much politically independent of the Imperium. Deathwatch was an action game where you were so powerful, they literally had to implement a horde system to account for you mowing down dozens of enemies per attack. I never played Black Crusade or Only War, so I can't really comment on how they played.
A better D&D analogy would be saying "We're starting at level 3. Please choose your class/race from those in the Player's Handbook" and one guys saying "but I wanted to start as an Adamantine Arrow from Mage".
BrookM wrote:Custodes could be a level 4 character, while Imperial Knights level 5, or maybe even beyond.
Knights are something I am hoping for, they could make for a fun diversion from the regular campaign by letting the players stomp around for a bit in something a few power levels over their current predicament, or to act as their own Deus Ex Machina should the situation call for it.
Those places make sense, at least if the Knight is as high up the Titan Foodchain as we're allowed to go. But yeah as the occasional diversion, would probably be best, a side story about Knights your party encounter or frequently see in a War Zone.
Mr Morden wrote:
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: So with the different power levels of play with in the game, I wonder if at a suitably high level game if I could play a Custodian Guard.
Also looking forward to the possibility of playing as a Knight Pilot, I think that could be a fun sort of campaign.
To me both of those characters are mid level - but I enjoy games at all sorts of leves - have run games where its a bunch of guardsman just trying to sruvive during an invasion to games where the players were involved in the poltical machinations and eventual fate of an entire sub sector.
It depends on what else they have in the mid area of the game. It is good to get all levels of play in at some point, each has something fun the can offer. Oh could combine them all too, trying to survive for a few sessions, then swapping over to the guys directing the fate of the sub sector. Thats one thing I've always liked about the 40kRPGs, is how easily you could interconnect them.
warboss wrote: Why final? No marine previews? That's a surprising change from GW's usual schtick.
Have they said that they'll be doing separate books for various races, or is that just speculation?
If they're doing separate ones, I can see how they'd want to do a marine book second instead of first (at least for my group, we probably wouldn't get into a game where women aren't allowed to be PCs).
Personally, I think I'm looking forward to an Ork book. I mean, that'd be really awesome.
They did say they'd publish IIRC tier/race specific books and settings. I took that to mean that they'd come out with the 40k equivalents of the old 3/3.5 D&D elf focused and fighter focused books but have the basic rules for all of them in the core book.
That said.. my comment about no marine pics wasn't meant to say that they'd be doing anything different. I fully expect marine rules in the core game just like I expect normal humans and xenos (all to a basic degree later fleshed out in focused books). I was just surprised that there wasn't a posterchild marine in any of the preview pics.
Well I like the guardswomen, it still strikes me as off and I don't know why. All the pictures have been nice, but I just don't like them for some reason. Looking forward to seeing how this all plays out book wise.
Trigger discipline...makes me not like that picture.
PS: After glancing through the art, it's decidedly "okay". Nothing special, but not particularly dreadful. It's no Mark Gibbons, but I think that kind of art is dead and gone nowdays.
Ratius wrote: No short skirt and boobplate on that Cadian?
Pretty crap imho.
I know right? And the previously posted woman commissar was also not wearing a more revealing uniform than her male comrades for no reason other than to show boobs as some method of (somehow) increasing her effectiveness! [/sarcasm]
For my part, the artwork so far looks kind of... plain. Not enough weird, not enough gothic.
Perhaps because what we're seeing so far is images for character classes (or whatever they'll be called). Still, nothing really feels dystopian or theocratic or daemonic or twisted or superstitious or pagan or proletarian or haunted or ... I dunno, 40k to me.
Ashiraya wrote: The art is clearly inaccurate. The head and the gun are supposed to be twice as big.
Also, the legs are too long and slender, the arms should be much thicker and the hands should at least be thrice the size they currently are. You'd think the artist has never seen what Cadians actually look like. Really bad artwork.
I really like the art design. My only issue is that it's a little too clean. 40k is gritty and dark. Where is the mud and blood and grit? And why are all the characters pretty in some way? Why aren't they deathly skinny or horribly scarred or something?
Anyhow, very cool and I'm keen to see more. Quite nice to see such a diverse set of characters so far as well
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the reason why it looks off is because these characters haven't been given any characterful context, as they've just been placed on a generic white background to show the character concepts, rather than try to strike any feeling.
We don't grasp any immersion from it so we don't feel like we care about it.
Even something as simple as the dark smokey lighting in the concept of the dude with the flail can add a lot more character than the Dark Souls concept who's just standing in a white vacuum.
tinfoil wrote: For my part, the artwork so far looks kind of... plain. Not enough weird, not enough gothic.
Perhaps because what we're seeing so far is images for character classes (or whatever they'll be called). Still, nothing really feels dystopian or theocratic or daemonic or twisted or superstitious or pagan or proletarian or haunted or ... I dunno, 40k to me.
I don't think every single human in 40k needs to crank up the Gothic to 11. I prefer my IG with rare exception to not be festooned with fetus skulls on their armor and dripping wax candles on their lasguns. That's fine for certain factions overall (like =I=) and others in part (specific regiments or chapters) but it shouldn't be the base standard from which they're all built. YMMV.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberius501 wrote: I really like the art design. My only issue is that it's a little too clean. 40k is gritty and dark. Where is the mud and blood and grit? And why are all the characters pretty in some way? Why aren't they deathly skinny or horribly scarred or something?
Anyhow, very cool and I'm keen to see more. Quite nice to see such a diverse set of characters so far as well
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the reason why it looks off is because these characters haven't been given any characterful context, as they've just been placed on a generic white background to show the character concepts, rather than try to strike any feeling.
We don't grasp any immersion from it so we don't feel like we care about it.
I suspect we'll see more grit, darkness, and gothic horror in the group and settings shots. As you said, these are specifically character art likely for the character creation chapter. The focus is on them on those pages and I can see why the art would be as well.
The art reminds me of '90s supers games, just as we were getting past 4 color stuff, but not yet in digital art. I mean it is digital art and all the over working (which I like), but it just doesn't seem to have a weight to it.
I was comparing these with the character designs from Dark Heresy, and the overall design is actually pretty close. The big difference really is the sterile white background.
It could be that they plan to overlay the art on the master page background, so what we currently see as white will actually be something else when in the book.
It's not just that they're plain (which misrepresents the setting in its own way). Those clean cut lines and comic style rendering just isn't a good match for the world they're meant to represent.
I'll take an interesting, confusing mess over what they're showing here, thankyouverymuch.
Those art pieces actually represent the 40k universe in the GW books.
Here is a Skitarii Ranger from the Skitarii book for example.
While it's not a 1 to 1 match it's following the same idea of what that class or model is.
Same goes for the Guardswoman from the other page.
But it's not representative of the setting, really. They are technically proficient images of a character in the GW created universe. The art however does not evoke any feelings, theme, emotion, etc. This is common though with about 90% of the art GW puts out today.
You could say John Blanche is on the opposite end of the spectrum. While his art is splattered, inconsistently scaled and on occasion quite "poor" from a technical standpoint, it's immensely evocative and he pushes the atmosphere of 40K more than many other artists.
If I'm to compare it to FFG, I'll second everything that's been said, it's a bit cleaner which is better in some ways but a bit less thematic. The female commissar compared to the FFG from only war comes to mind in particular.
Don't hate it, but I did generally prefer FFGs art.
All of which barely matters if the game itself is good, it feels almost petty to bother comparing them.
Elbows wrote: But it's not representative of the setting, really. They are technically proficient images of a character in the GW created universe. The art however does not evoke any feelings, theme, emotion, etc. This is common though with about 90% of the art GW puts out today.
Did you ever think it's not meant to "evoke" anything, but rather just to be key art for a character type?
You could say John Blanche is on the opposite end of the spectrum. While his art is splattered, inconsistently scaled and on occasion quite "poor" from a technical standpoint, it's immensely evocative and he pushes the atmosphere of 40K more than many other artists.
That's your opinion.
I find John Blanche's art to be ridiculously useless and nothing but an excuse for him to be celebrated because it's "different" to what we get now.
They're showing off the art...and people are stating why they're not "blown away" by it. I didn't say it had to evoke anything. Not sure what you're hung up on here. If they're putting out promo material, people are going to comment on it.
Elbows wrote: But it's not representative of the setting, really. They are technically proficient images of a character in the GW created universe. The art however does not evoke any feelings, theme, emotion, etc. This is common though with about 90% of the art GW puts out today.
You could say John Blanche is on the opposite end of the spectrum. While his art is splattered, inconsistently scaled and on occasion quite "poor" from a technical standpoint, it's immensely evocative and he pushes the atmosphere of 40K more than many other artists.
That is highly debatable...
The art shown so far in this thread is pretty much exactly the same things that we got from FFG. The difference being the sterile white backgrounds. Personally, I think those backgrounds are there because these artworks are going to be directly on the pages of the book in the character section (so they will not get a background). The art itself is clean, technically good and highly descriptive, with some nice little touches here and there (like the slogans on the Cadian's armour). But I have to agree with many here that it is not very evocative. It is too clean and descriptive for that. Fine for character illustrations, but I hope that not all art is going to be like this.
Elbows wrote: But it's not representative of the setting, really. They are technically proficient images of a character in the GW created universe. The art however does not evoke any feelings, theme, emotion, etc. This is common though with about 90% of the art GW puts out today.
You could say John Blanche is on the opposite end of the spectrum. While his art is splattered, inconsistently scaled and on occasion quite "poor" from a technical standpoint, it's immensely evocative and he pushes the atmosphere of 40K more than many other artists.
I would argue that Kopinski does a better job but whatever. That is your opinion and I have mine.
The art shown so far in this thread is pretty much exactly the same things that we got from FFG. The difference being the sterile white backgrounds.
The white backgrounds definitely don't really do the pictures justice, but in general the art direction is just very sterile. This is what FFG40k art with bare backgrounds look like:
Wrath & Glory - February 2018
Greetings, readers! Today I’m going to pick up the thread from my December Designer Diary where I talked about the different Tiers of play in the Wrath & Glory RPG. Today’s designer diary goes hand-in-hand with that one, so I suggest you read it first.
In Wrath & Glory, the first step is to choose the Tier of your campaign. After that has been established, you can freely mix any characters of that Tier or lower into your game. How does this work? Characters with an archetype of a Tier lower than the Game’s Tier can Ascend.
It would have been simple to say something like, “A character of a lower tier spends a number of build points to equal the game tier.” However, that answer—while simple—lacks any investment of story in the character’s growth. It also can lead to some unusually restrictive situations. For example, Imperial Guardsman Tannenberg (a Tier 1 archetype) joining a Tier 3 game would still begin play with just his flak armour and a lasgun, which could lead to Tannenberg’s player feeling very under-prepared for the challenges of a Tier 3 campaign.
So here’s how Ascending works. A lower-Tier character buys an “Ascension package,” which gives that character three important things. First, the character gains a new Keyword to symbolize their journey from that lower Tier to the higher one. This keyword represents some allegiance, contact, or connection to another organization that the character acquired, and it comes with some bonus influence to indicate that the character is now more well-known. Secondly, the character gains either some points of Corruption or a memorable injury—typically some kind of scar or other reminder that the 41st Millennium is a very dangerous place. Thirdly, the character may select some additional gear of higher rarity than their starting equipment, and the value of that gear scales with the new Tier to which they are ascending.
Here’s the proper example of Imperial Guardsman Tannenberg joining a Tier 3 campaign. The player spends points to buy Tannenberg’s attributes, skills, and talents as normal for Tier 1. Then, the player purchases the Ascension package “Stay the Course,” (the basic Ascension package as described above). The player decides that Tannenberg spent some time working with the Imperial Inquisition after going through grueling interrogation in the wake of a battle against a rogue psyker (gaining the Inquisition Keyword). The battle was costly, leaving Tannenberg the only survivor of his platoon and bearing a permanent twitch in one eye as a souvenir (the player chose the memorable injury). When Tannenberg joins the Tier 3 warband, he walks in with a plasma pistol holstered at his hip and a sub-dermal armour augmetic implant. Lastly, the player then spends the remaining build points (after deducting the cost of the Ascension package) on more attributes, skills, and talents until they reach the starting total for a Tier 3 character.
Tannenberg is now formidable enough to meaningfully contribute to a Tier 3 campaign and not feel entirely overshadowed by archetypes that begin at Tier 3. The twitchy Imperial Guardsman may not be as strong or as tough as a Space Marine, but he has a lot of experience dealing with the Inquisition, influence amongst that shadowy organization (as well as the Astra Militarum), and a broad depth of skills and talents that he can bring to the table.
Keep an eye on the Ulisses North America website for more updates to come about Wrath & Glory!
The approach sounds quite similar to the FFG one (minus the superficially similar yet nitty gritty different ruleset). Pick an advanced class and spend your xp on bonuses while you get some better gear. Iirc, leveled up rogue trader and/or dark heresy characters were the same in that they couldn't go toe to toe with a starting marine in combat generally but had tons of bonuses outside of combat.
Unless you were talking about first edition DH, whose different levelup costs ensured you could go toe to toe with a SM because you could just buy things like toughness far cheaper with XP till the point your Adeptas Mechanicus could walk out into space and be completely fine... Not even going to discuss Ascension classes, or psykers from that era that's for sure. Using Lascannons to snipe headshots was probably one of the simplest things a Psyker could do if he survived the initial period.
warboss wrote: The approach sounds quite similar to the FFG one (minus the superficially similar yet nitty gritty different ruleset). Pick an advanced class and spend your xp on bonuses while you get some better gear. Iirc, leveled up rogue trader and/or dark heresy characters were the same in that they couldn't go toe to toe with a starting marine in combat generally but had tons of bonuses outside of combat.
Of course that is dependent on the GM to have a campaign where such non-combat aspects came into play regularly enough (and where the space marine couldn't just bulldoze past with brawn).
Marines in DH1 were an interesting beast. They were so far and beyond the regular characters (Ascension notwithstanding) that including them as enemies would be seen as rail-roading the players into an unavoidable loss, but having them as friendly NPCs could result in them doing all the work (the dreaded DMPC, as it were).
We came up against Chaos Marines in DH2 a couple of times (although since the DM was only using the core rulebook, he made up his own stats). My character suffered his first sucking chest wound from bolter fire from a Khornate Marine. It was at that point that we all started spending XP for Weapon Specialisation talents and went scrounging for plasma and melta weapons.
I'm interested whether they include non-tangible psychological injuries as "memorable injuries". I just remember the DH ascension packages included things like trading physical attributes for reduction in Corruption or Insanity, representing a period of harsh religious penance or treatment with powerful drugs. Alternatively there was the option to trade Corruption for Insanity or vice versa, representing gaining mental clarity at the cost of a darkening of the soul, or alternatively a retreat from reality in order to avoid tainting the soul.
Wrath & Glory - February 2018
Greetings, readers! Today I’m going to pick up the thread from my December Designer Diary where I talked about the different Tiers of play in the Wrath & Glory RPG. Today’s designer diary goes hand-in-hand with that one, so I suggest you read it first.
In Wrath & Glory, the first step is to choose the Tier of your campaign. After that has been established, you can freely mix any characters of that Tier or lower into your game. How does this work? Characters with an archetype of a Tier lower than the Game’s Tier can Ascend.
It would have been simple to say something like, “A character of a lower tier spends a number of build points to equal the game tier.” However, that answer—while simple—lacks any investment of story in the character’s growth. It also can lead to some unusually restrictive situations. For example, Imperial Guardsman Tannenberg (a Tier 1 archetype) joining a Tier 3 game would still begin play with just his flak armour and a lasgun, which could lead to Tannenberg’s player feeling very under-prepared for the challenges of a Tier 3 campaign.
So here’s how Ascending works. A lower-Tier character buys an “Ascension package,” which gives that character three important things. First, the character gains a new Keyword to symbolize their journey from that lower Tier to the higher one. This keyword represents some allegiance, contact, or connection to another organization that the character acquired, and it comes with some bonus influence to indicate that the character is now more well-known. Secondly, the character gains either some points of Corruption or a memorable injury—typically some kind of scar or other reminder that the 41st Millennium is a very dangerous place. Thirdly, the character may select some additional gear of higher rarity than their starting equipment, and the value of that gear scales with the new Tier to which they are ascending.
Here’s the proper example of Imperial Guardsman Tannenberg joining a Tier 3 campaign. The player spends points to buy Tannenberg’s attributes, skills, and talents as normal for Tier 1. Then, the player purchases the Ascension package “Stay the Course,” (the basic Ascension package as described above). The player decides that Tannenberg spent some time working with the Imperial Inquisition after going through grueling interrogation in the wake of a battle against a rogue psyker (gaining the Inquisition Keyword). The battle was costly, leaving Tannenberg the only survivor of his platoon and bearing a permanent twitch in one eye as a souvenir (the player chose the memorable injury). When Tannenberg joins the Tier 3 warband, he walks in with a plasma pistol holstered at his hip and a sub-dermal armour augmetic implant. Lastly, the player then spends the remaining build points (after deducting the cost of the Ascension package) on more attributes, skills, and talents until they reach the starting total for a Tier 3 character.
Tannenberg is now formidable enough to meaningfully contribute to a Tier 3 campaign and not feel entirely overshadowed by archetypes that begin at Tier 3. The twitchy Imperial Guardsman may not be as strong or as tough as a Space Marine, but he has a lot of experience dealing with the Inquisition, influence amongst that shadowy organization (as well as the Astra Militarum), and a broad depth of skills and talents that he can bring to the table.
Keep an eye on the Ulisses North America website for more updates to come about Wrath & Glory!
I've always thought an amusing way to play an all Ork player characters game would be to have the players (and Ork NPCs) talk normally and instead have the NPCs of other races they encounter have ridiculously over the top characterisations, representing the Orks opinions and preconceptions of them.
Inquisitors are in all likeliness a tier up and over these archetypes used in the example.
Also, Imperial Knight in the background, using the idiotic thought processes of youtubers and clickbait sites, THIS MEANS IMPERIAL KNIGHTS ARE ALSO PLAYABLE.
BrookM wrote: Inquisitors are in all likeliness a tier up and over these archetypes used in the example.
Also, Imperial Knight in the background, using the idiotic thought processes of youtubers and clickbait sites, THIS MEANS IMPERIAL KNIGHTS ARE ALSO PLAYABLE.
I was extremely tempted to ask if that meant a female Commissar model was confirmed for release as a 'preorder bonus!' for the book, personally.
I'd only been paying attention to the art initially but seeing it's a D6 system, I'm actually intrigued by it a bit more now.
Kroem wrote: Haha a whole table of people trying to roleplay Orks would be a right laugh!
I only tried out roleplay for the first time last month (turns out it is great fun!) so I'm not going to try something so ambitious just yet.
I suspect it would be fun for about 15 minutes and then increasingly annoying for the next four hours just like GW led WAAAGHS in crowded convemtions like Gencon. YMMV but Ork roleplaying/impressions are like SNL skits... Better in short, intense doses.
warboss wrote: The approach sounds quite similar to the FFG one (minus the superficially similar yet nitty gritty different ruleset). Pick an advanced class and spend your xp on bonuses while you get some better gear. Iirc, leveled up rogue trader and/or dark heresy characters were the same in that they couldn't go toe to toe with a starting marine in combat generally but had tons of bonuses outside of combat.
Of course that is dependent on the GM to have a campaign where such non-combat aspects came into play regularly enough (and where the space marine couldn't just bulldoze past with brawn).
Absolutely but I'd say that is more of a general disclaimer for rpg campaigns rather than an issue with mixed power tiers.
Read a novel or short story from an Ork perspective, that should give enough of an idea on how to pull it off in a way that isn't overly annoying or forced.
One of the short stories about a Stompa crew that took part in the Sanctus Reach invasion is still one of my favourites from an ork perspective.
Just a heads up...if the system is predominantly based around 4+, with special 6+ results you could use the Betrayal at Calth dice which are cheap on eBay.
I know you could use normal D6's, but for a 40K and more "iconic" (wink!) game, it'd be something to consider. I have a couple of sets myself and will probably set them aside if I ever try this.
I believe there are two circles, and one skull/circle on each dice:
The remaining three sides are: blank, apothecary, apothecary.
Kanluwen wrote:I mean, we could always just ask what "icons" mean...
Going off comic's first page, I'd hazard a guess that "Icon" is just Wrath and Glory's chosen synonym for "success". Four and five net you a standard success, while getting a six results in an "Exalted Icon" and two success...
Elbows wrote:I know you could use normal D6's, but for a 40K and more "iconic" (wink!) game, it'd be something to consider..
Or,y'know, you could just pick up one of the factions specific die sets that GW already makes....
Elbows wrote: Just a heads up...if the system is predominantly based around 4+, with special 6+ results you could use the Betrayal at Calth dice which are cheap on eBay
Nice catch. I have 2 sets of these myself that was just going to sit around unused. Now at least I have a use for them.
warboss wrote: IIRC, the tactical marine was the example of a tier 3. I wonder if a scout is a tier 2 Astartes...
Given that Guardsman Tannenberg is in the adventuring party, I'm wondering if the intro comic is either focused on a Tier 3 group or if Guardsman Tannenberg represents a high level character in a mixed group... Barring Sigma-19 and Scout Varkus, Tannenberg looks like he's the oldest and/or more grizzled member of the group and he was also the example that they used to illustrate the Ascension process for player characters.
Why? Seems like it would be a fun game where each character would have different perspectives and approaches to events.
Because it's really hard to justify within the setting.
Essentially, the Inquisitorial theme from FFG's first take on the system is the only one that could possibly hold a group like that together and even that would be a massive stretch.
Why? Seems like it would be a fun game where each character would have different perspectives and approaches to events.
Because it's really hard to justify within the setting.
Essentially, the Inquisitorial theme from FFG's first take on the system is the only one that could possibly hold a group like that together and even that would be a massive stretch.
Easy - They are the survivors of an enemy attack. In fact there is a BL novel with the guardsman and Raven Guard marine where exactly this happens.
The two Guard are going to look to the Astartes for orders, The Ad Mech thinks its logical t stick together and the RG sees them as useful but likely ultimately disposable assets.
Inquisition makes it much easier - but even then they could be in contact with the Inquisitor via the Ad Mech for instance.
Why? Seems like it would be a fun game where each character would have different perspectives and approaches to events.
Because it's really hard to justify within the setting.
Essentially, the Inquisitorial theme from FFG's first take on the system is the only one that could possibly hold a group like that together and even that would be a massive stretch.
Or an orbital assault goes wrong, with the comissar and the guardsman as the only survivors from their unit who then meet up with the ad mech magos, who was hiding and hoarding tech to save and then find the scout who is performing recon for his chapter.
Just takes a bit more imagination than "You are all from this chapter/regiment/etc." but gives you a much more fun game due to the inter-character conflicts and perspectives it introduces.
Why? Seems like it would be a fun game where each character would have different perspectives and approaches to events.
Because it's really hard to justify within the setting.
Essentially, the Inquisitorial theme from FFG's first take on the system is the only one that could possibly hold a group like that together and even that would be a massive stretch.
Or an orbital assault goes wrong, with the comissar and the guardsman as the only survivors from their unit who then meet up with the ad mech magos, who was hiding and hoarding tech to save and then find the scout who is performing recon for his chapter.
Just takes a bit more imagination than "You are all from this chapter/regiment/etc." but gives you a much more fun game due to the inter-character conflicts and perspectives it introduces.
THIS.
Another option would be that these guys are some of the survivors at a rally point. I have been in that situation more then I care to count. They'd drop you in, you have a set time to get to the rally point, and if not, you just link up at the closest one you landed near. Another would be to link up in a trenchline/ bunker, and you move forward with who you have, picking up stragglers along the way, as you get an Ad Hoc squad/ team together of whoever is left in the area. Crash site/ Drop point/ defensive line, etc...
Why? Seems like it would be a fun game where each character would have different perspectives and approaches to events.
Because it's really hard to justify within the setting.
Essentially, the Inquisitorial theme from FFG's first take on the system is the only one that could possibly hold a group like that together and even that would be a massive stretch.
Easy - They are the survivors of an enemy attack. In fact there is a BL novel with the guardsman and Raven Guard marine where exactly this happens.
The two Guard are going to look to the Astartes for orders, The Ad Mech thinks its logical t stick together and the RG sees them as useful but likely ultimately disposable assets.
Inquisition makes it much easier - but even then they could be in contact with the Inquisitor via the Ad Mech for instance.
Not bad, but I don't think RG are one of the "reg humans are disposable" chapters. I think they're closer to Spave Wolf/Salamander thinking there.
Maybe you were thinking of the Marines Malevolent!
Now come up with a setup that can accommodate varied campaigns that are more than simple dungeon crawls and I might concede the point.
Oh jesus.
No, YOU do it. That's the point after all, to use your imagination. It's easy to do, you just need to not approach the task like it's impossible just because you don't like how its viewed in the fluff.
I guarantee you can, if you actually try. Took me half a minute.
Now come up with a setup that can accommodate varied campaigns that are more than simple dungeon crawls and I might concede the point.
You just team up? I mean, my D&D party is also disfunctional like heck, but at the end of the day, what we want is to have fun together.
A "fluffy" way, would be to use the "Inquisition" card: You 4 performed so well with the first task, Inquisitor X of the Ordo Y decided he wanted you as Acolytes, so now you have a "boss" NPC for a long campaign.
Also, I'm LOVING the art and how they explain the core concepts of the game!
Elbows wrote: Just a heads up...if the system is predominantly based around 4+, with special 6+ results you could use the Betrayal at Calth dice which are cheap on eBay
Nice catch. I have 2 sets of these myself that was just going to sit around unused. Now at least I have a use for them.
Yeah, I had two sets laying around myself, so I ordered another 40 for like $10 on eBay (far cheaper than any custom dice anywhere else). Just seems a good fit for leftover dice that no one is using.
Now come up with a setup that can accommodate varied campaigns that are more than simple dungeon crawls and I might concede the point.
After this rag-tag team of misfits manage to break through from enemy territory/take out orbital defence cannon/blow up the enemy fuel refinery/etc. they catch the attention of an Inquisitor, who approaches them with the suggestion that it would be to their mutual benefit if they were to do something for them....
This kind of thing even has a precedent in the lore, with Ciaphas Cain and Jurgen working alongside Space Marines, Admech and Inquisition at multiple points throughout their career. In fact I am sure there is one book where they are working with Inquisitor Vail and their admech friend to find a chaos artifact on a planet.
Why? Seems like it would be a fun game where each character would have different perspectives and approaches to events.
Because it's really hard to justify within the setting.
Essentially, the Inquisitorial theme from FFG's first take on the system is the only one that could possibly hold a group like that together and even that would be a massive stretch.
Wow, honestly? The 40k setting allows one to justify nearly anything if one is willing to exercise some imagination, and justifying such a motley team is actually a lot easier to do than some of the other things that have actually canonically occurred within the setting.
Now come up with a setup that can accommodate varied campaigns that are more than simple dungeon crawls and I might concede the point.
Oh jesus.
No, YOU do it. That's the point after all, to use your imagination. It's easy to do, you just need to not approach the task like it's impossible just because you don't like how its viewed in the fluff.
I guarantee you can, if you actually try. Took me half a minute.
Oh don't start this nonsense. If you're just going to completely abandon the core themes & tone of the setting on a continual basis, why are you using a setting-specific ruleset or even playing in that setting at all? That's what the eleventy-billion nonspecific RPG systems out there are for and a lot of those are free.
The FFGRPG's worked because they found conceits to allow for varied parties having varied adventures within the existing conventions of the setting. They assumed that the default state for any given group was going to be "I want to roleplay in the 40K setting" and set things up to make that as easy as possible, trusting that if players wanted to go outside those existing conventions here & there(and for most groups it *would* be an occasional thing, because again they're there to RP in 40K) they'd resort to "imagination". Constructing the core experience to best serve the majority of usage scenarios and relying on the playerbase to modify the system when they want to do their own thing is the rational way to do things.
"You can just make everything up from scratch yourself, stop being so laaaaazy" is a daft argument, because the entire basis of the transaction with an RPG in an established setting is that you're paying the company money to do all the setup work for you, and if you want something more freeform that you have to work on yourself there are countless generic systems out there, again many totally free, that will let you be even more "imaginative".
Alpharius wrote: The theaters of war in 40K have a lot of different groups in them.
It is almost too easy to imagine and justify just about any group of characters getting together and then staying together.
Not, again, if you're sticking to the conventions of the setting. 99.9999999% of Guardsmen(or whatever else) in 99.9999999% of situations don't have the required level of agency in 40K to just "stay together". I can come up with a thousand odd edge-case scenarios for situational team-ups, but the only way to preserve those team-ups beyond the immediate scenario is to give them a patron who *does* have the required agency, and that pretty much means Inquisitors and Rogue Traders unless you want a storyline with a fairly specific focus in which case you get a couple more.
So in the end, all this "freedom" and "imaginative possibility" is illusory if you're planning to actually play in the 40K setting.
Why? Seems like it would be a fun game where each character would have different perspectives and approaches to events.
Because it's really hard to justify within the setting.
Essentially, the Inquisitorial theme from FFG's first take on the system is the only one that could possibly hold a group like that together and even that would be a massive stretch.
Is the master's duty to give a proper explanation to why those characters are working together. If he can't, then he should just make a more thematic campaing restricting some backgrounds/characters.
Now come up with a setup that can accommodate varied campaigns that are more than simple dungeon crawls and I might concede the point.
Oh jesus.
No, YOU do it. That's the point after all, to use your imagination. It's easy to do, you just need to not approach the task like it's impossible just because you don't like how its viewed in the fluff.
I guarantee you can, if you actually try. Took me half a minute.
Oh don't start this nonsense. If you're just going to completely abandon the core themes & tone of the setting on a continual basis, why are you using a setting-specific ruleset or even playing in that setting at all? That's what the eleventy-billion nonspecific RPG systems out there are for and a lot of those are free.
The FFGRPG's worked because they found conceits to allow for varied parties having varied adventures within the existing conventions of the setting. They assumed that the default state for any given group was going to be "I want to roleplay in the 40K setting" and set things up to make that as easy as possible, trusting that if players wanted to go outside those existing conventions here & there(and for most groups it *would* be an occasional thing, because again they're there to RP in 40K) they'd resort to "imagination". Constructing the core experience to best serve the majority of usage scenarios and relying on the playerbase to modify the system when they want to do their own thing is the rational way to do things.
"You can just make everything up from scratch yourself, stop being so laaaaazy" is a daft argument, because the entire basis of the transaction with an RPG in an established setting is that you're paying the company money to do all the setup work for you, and if you want something more freeform that you have to work on yourself there are countless generic systems out there, again many totally free, that will let you be even more "imaginative".
Why do you jump to absolutes and exagerations? This is a Warhammer 40k basic and generic roleplay core system with indications on how to roleplay in the setting of warhammer 40k. It comes down to the master to, inside the boundaries of the setting, make his "party" and his "adventure". Do you prefer a more specific and focused RPG system like the old ones, ok, we get it. Thats a absolutely reasonable and legitimate way to prefer things and you are in your right to express that you prefer it to be that way.
But don't say that because things aren't as you wish they where, everyone is just using the "Make everything yourself" argument to defend this "new" system, because thats isn't the case. This is a Warhammer 40k Roleplaying game to roleplay in the Warhammer 40k setting. Is not a "generic RPG game". People aren't abandoning the core themes of the setting because the rulebook expect from them to select the kind of game they want to play inside the indications of the rulebook.
Its not cool to gatekeep other people from what is proper "Warhammer40k". Is not the first time you accuse other people of enjoying the Warhammer40k setting the wrong way.
Now come up with a setup that can accommodate varied campaigns that are more than simple dungeon crawls and I might concede the point.
Oh jesus.
No, YOU do it. That's the point after all, to use your imagination. It's easy to do, you just need to not approach the task like it's impossible just because you don't like how its viewed in the fluff.
I guarantee you can, if you actually try. Took me half a minute.
Oh don't start this nonsense. If you're just going to completely abandon the core themes & tone of the setting on a continual basis, why are you using a setting-specific ruleset or even playing in that setting at all? That's what the eleventy-billion nonspecific RPG systems out there are for and a lot of those are free.
The FFGRPG's worked because they found conceits to allow for varied parties having varied adventures within the existing conventions of the setting. They assumed that the default state for any given group was going to be "I want to roleplay in the 40K setting" and set things up to make that as easy as possible, trusting that if players wanted to go outside those existing conventions here & there(and for most groups it *would* be an occasional thing, because again they're there to RP in 40K) they'd resort to "imagination". Constructing the core experience to best serve the majority of usage scenarios and relying on the playerbase to modify the system when they want to do their own thing is the rational way to do things.
"You can just make everything up from scratch yourself, stop being so laaaaazy" is a daft argument, because the entire basis of the transaction with an RPG in an established setting is that you're paying the company money to do all the setup work for you, and if you want something more freeform that you have to work on yourself there are countless generic systems out there, again many totally free, that will let you be even more "imaginative".
You've done nothing to disprove what I said was true, just merely argued at me in an extremely volatile and infantile method.
It's the GM's job to come up with a campaign, and detail everything that is allowed within that setting. If you don't want guardsmen beside marines beside Skitarii, fine, then set those standards. But it's not impossible, and to say that to construct such a campaign is utterly existent on abandoning " the core themes & tone of the setting on a continual basis" is to foolishly wave a bright red flag in the air that screams 'I have no ability to interpret and innovate within existing lore and themes, and am a slave to the creative influence of others' through a fething megaphone.
Inventing a series of specific events that would necessitate the creation of such a varied group amongst GW's background is not only stupidly easy to do, there are literally text-book examples provided in many, many of the Black Library books. So much for abandoning the core themes, eh Yodel?
FFG's system was great, but even in their system, they allowed for mixed play between their core rulebooks, and Black Crusade was built upon the very premise. Now again, the weight of the creative bulk in that system was still resting upon the GM's shoulders. Both FFG and Wrath and Glory do the necessary legwork of handing players a system, stating out obvious foes and giving players and GM's the reigns. But they do not pretend to serve as replacements for campaign construction. That's why Pathfinder has a million published adventure paths.
Is it intellectually easier to just pick a faction, tell everyone to play within that and be happy? Yeah, sure. I loved Deathwatch. But don't go around aggressively promoting the notion that anything past this is some kind of travesty to the lore and fiction, because it's blatantly false and about as factually sound as the Flat Earth movement.
I loved the art snippet, and am glad to see that the design team seems to have an open mind when it comes to these designs; If I decide I want to run an all Custodes campaign, well that'll probably be simple.
The goal is to have fun, for gygax's sake.
BrookM wrote: Easiest reason is.. Cadia has blown up, the Imperium is torn in two by a massive warp rift, everything going to gak, survive.
Unless you're against the recent advancements in the plot.
Right?
Plus when you read just about any BL book, well, there's a fair amount of mixing and matching going on.
Never mind the fact - meta though it may be - that if you're all sitting down to play an RPG, it isn't hard at all to 'justify' doing stuff like was shown in the preview comic.
Why? Seems like it would be a fun game where each character would have different perspectives and approaches to events.
Because it's really hard to justify within the setting.
Essentially, the Inquisitorial theme from FFG's first take on the system is the only one that could possibly hold a group like that together and even that would be a massive stretch.
Is the master's duty to give a proper explanation to why those characters are working together. If he can't, then he should just make a more thematic campaing restricting some backgrounds/characters.
Now come up with a setup that can accommodate varied campaigns that are more than simple dungeon crawls and I might concede the point.
Oh jesus.
No, YOU do it. That's the point after all, to use your imagination. It's easy to do, you just need to not approach the task like it's impossible just because you don't like how its viewed in the fluff.
I guarantee you can, if you actually try. Took me half a minute.
Oh don't start this nonsense. If you're just going to completely abandon the core themes & tone of the setting on a continual basis, why are you using a setting-specific ruleset or even playing in that setting at all? That's what the eleventy-billion nonspecific RPG systems out there are for and a lot of those are free.
The FFGRPG's worked because they found conceits to allow for varied parties having varied adventures within the existing conventions of the setting. They assumed that the default state for any given group was going to be "I want to roleplay in the 40K setting" and set things up to make that as easy as possible, trusting that if players wanted to go outside those existing conventions here & there(and for most groups it *would* be an occasional thing, because again they're there to RP in 40K) they'd resort to "imagination". Constructing the core experience to best serve the majority of usage scenarios and relying on the playerbase to modify the system when they want to do their own thing is the rational way to do things.
"You can just make everything up from scratch yourself, stop being so laaaaazy" is a daft argument, because the entire basis of the transaction with an RPG in an established setting is that you're paying the company money to do all the setup work for you, and if you want something more freeform that you have to work on yourself there are countless generic systems out there, again many totally free, that will let you be even more "imaginative".
Why do you jump to absolutes and exagerations? This is a Warhammer 40k basic and generic roleplay core system with indications on how to roleplay in the setting of warhammer 40k. It comes down to the master to inside the boundaries of the setting to make his "party" and his "adventure". Do you prefer a more specific and focused RPG system like the old ones, ok, we get it.
But don't say that because things aren't as you wish they where, everyone is just using the "Make everything yourself" argument because thats isn't the case. This is a Warhammer 40k Roleplaying game to roleplay in the Warhammer 40k setting. Is not a "generic RPG game". People aren't abandoning the core themes of the setting because the rulebook expect form them to select the kind of game they want to play inside the indications of the rulebook.
You should stop with your gatekeeping of what is proper "Warhammer40k". Is not the first time you accuse other people of enjoying the Warhammer40k setting the wrong way.
It's not "gatekeeping" to grasp the basic premise of the setting, and congratulations on completely missing the point, which I will now belabour for your benefit:
I was not accusing this game of being "generic", I was saying that what this game purports to do would be better served with a generic - and thus even more "free" and "imaginative" - ruleset.
I'm not great with analogies, but lets try this:
A 40K novel that I just buy and read is a pre-built bit of furniture. I order it, I get what I paid for.
The FFGRPGs are Ikea flatpacks. I know what it is I'm buying, but I have to put in the work to realise the final product.
A generic RPG system is a bundle of tools and some raw materials, I have to design and build the whole project myself, but I get exactly what I want in the end.
So where does Wrath & Glory fit? People are claiming it's option three, toolbox & raw materials, but if it is then there are better sets of tools out there to work with, tools that let me work without any constraints at all if that's what I want. But if it's supposed to be option two, then it's a flatpack without any instructions - I'm still constrained in-practice by what I'm given, but I'm expected to figure out what the final product should be on my own.
Or put another way - on the spectrum with total freedom of imagination at one end and a completely preset narrative at the other, the prior 40KRPGsalready were the "middle ground" compromise position, and I can't see the point in going a little bit further towards the freedom of imagination end when in the vast majority of cases I'd just be expending needless effort to re-establish the premise of the prior systems, and in the tiny handful of cases where I would want to go beyond that premise where I wouldn't mind putting in the extra effort(because it's for a special occasion not every adventure I run) I'd rather go all the way and either rework the existing systems entirely to my own taste or build completely from the ground up in a generic system.
EDIT: Infantile eh? Guess that whole "Rule 1" thing goes out the window when the mods agree with your position.
More specific rebuttals will come later after my lunch, and I'll do you the courtesy or replying to your points rather than engaging in petty ad homs.
Plus when you read just about any BL book, well, there's a fair amount of mixing and matching going on.
Never mind the fact - meta though it may be - that if you're all sitting down to play an RPG, it isn't hard at all to 'justify' doing stuff like was shown in the preview comic.
Apparently, for some it is. But then there are always people who feel slaved to established works, that these things are infallible concepts with 0 interior mutability that are unyielding under any premise.
Those people are not the ones that get invited back to gaming sessions in my experience, and I know this because once upon a time, I was one of them. Confessions of a fluff-supremacist.
Edit: This isn't directed at anyone specifically, but rather is a general obersvation I think I can safely say all 'nerds, geeks, etc' will make at some point upon extended interaction with fanbases.
We, for the most part, all know or meet people like this, and the oustanding consensus is that they simply have not learned to relax.
Again, not directed at Yodhrin, or whoever. Just an observation.
Now come up with a setup that can accommodate varied campaigns that are more than simple dungeon crawls and I might concede the point.
Oh jesus.
No, YOU do it. That's the point after all, to use your imagination. It's easy to do, you just need to not approach the task like it's impossible just because you don't like how its viewed in the fluff.
I guarantee you can, if you actually try. Took me half a minute.
I can come up with an infinite number of exception to the rules of the setting that would allow for that specific set of characters to co-exist for a limited amount of time within a storyline.
A system that calls for constant exceptions is not something I'm interested in. I like organic design and I'd rather put my imagination towards having fun within said organic design over fixing a hole in the product.
And yes, I realize you may feel differently. But please, spare me the condescension.
Plus when you read just about any BL book, well, there's a fair amount of mixing and matching going on.
Never mind the fact - meta though it may be - that if you're all sitting down to play an RPG, it isn't hard at all to 'justify' doing stuff like was shown in the preview comic.
Apparently, for some it is. But then there are always people who feel slaved to established works, that these things are infallible concepts with 0 interior mutability that are unyielding under any premise.
Those people are not the ones that get invited back to gaming sessions in my experience, and I know this because once upon a time, I was one of them. Confessions of a fluff-supremacist.
I lied, I can't respond politely to this kind of sneering, so I won't bother.
Not, again, if you're sticking to the conventions of the setting. 99.9999999% of Guardsmen(or whatever else) in 99.9999999% of situations don't have the required level of agency in 40K to just "stay together". I can come up with a thousand odd edge-case scenarios for situational team-ups, but the only way to preserve those team-ups beyond the immediate scenario is to give them a patron who *does* have the required agency, and that pretty much means Inquisitors and Rogue Traders unless you want a storyline with a fairly specific focus in which case you get a couple more.
So in the end, all this "freedom" and "imaginative possibility" is illusory if you're planning to actually play in the 40K setting.
Our heroes, at the end of their bloody campaign to liberate Aproximus Naminius from the clutches of a chaos tainted colonial governor after being stranded deep behind enemy lines, finally manage to assassinate the governor and escape the planet in his personal ship. As they make their way to rendezvous with the rest of the Imperium forces who are still fighting to crush the chaos-crazed PDF, a huge Warp disturbance engulfs their ship and, before they are hurtled headlong into the warp, they see an enormous, ancient, black battlecruiser materialise above the planet.
Suddenly, alarms ring out over the bridge, indicating a gellar field failure in the cargo bay. The magos is tasked with fixing the field generator whilst the pragmatic Commissar, raw Space Marine Scout and grizzled veteran Guardsman head to hold off the waves of demons pouring into the ship.
It is a hard fight, many of the intrepid troupe are wounded but they finally seal the field breach and finish off the warpspawn. They regroup on the bridge and consult the star charts to determine their location, only to find they have been flung to the far side of the galaxy, beyond Imperium space and that the breach of the gellar field has damaged their warp drive. With horror they realise they are within Ork-held territory and that they have no alternative but to land on the nearest habitable planet in order to restock what meagre supplies survived the warp incursion if they are to have any hope of making it back to Imperium space....
There you go, a perfectly valid according to in-universe lore example of how to keep the characters together which doesn't rely on them becoming the lackeys of an inquisitor or rogue trader. It also provides for a change of enemy (Cultists to Orks), new challenges to overcome (keeping the ship running) and provides an entrance for lots of cool new set pieces (Mad Max Fury Road chase sequence when they steal a trukk of promethium from an Ork refinery, anyone?) and even potentially new PC's (Ork Mek PC who helps them "keep deir ship runnin' da orky way", for example).
Just because 99.9999999% of the time the scenario wouldn't happen, doesn't mean it shouldn't happen in the game. You are playing the 0.0000001% of the time that it does.
If you don't like the Commissar/Guardsman/Scout/Magos team up....don't fething play it? It's a damn RPG - play whatever characters make you happy, but stop coming in here and whinging about other people playing a game you'll never be part of.
If somebody half the world away is playing a game in a fashion you don't approve of...who cares?
Not, again, if you're sticking to the conventions of the setting. 99.9999999% of Guardsmen(or whatever else) in 99.9999999% of situations don't have the required level of agency in 40K to just "stay together". I can come up with a thousand odd edge-case scenarios for situational team-ups, but the only way to preserve those team-ups beyond the immediate scenario is to give them a patron who *does* have the required agency, and that pretty much means Inquisitors and Rogue Traders unless you want a storyline with a fairly specific focus in which case you get a couple more.
So in the end, all this "freedom" and "imaginative possibility" is illusory if you're planning to actually play in the 40K setting.
Our heroes, at the end of their bloody campaign to liberate Aproximus Naminius from the clutches of a chaos tainted colonial governor after being stranded deep behind enemy lines, finally manage to assassinate the governor and escape the planet in his personal ship. As they make their way to rendezvous with the rest of the Imperium forces who are still fighting to crush the chaos-crazed PDF, a huge Warp disturbance engulfs their ship and, before they are hurtled headlong into the warp, they see an enormous, ancient battlecruiser materialise above the planet.
Suddenly, alarms ring out over the bridge, indicating a gellar field failure in the cargo bay. The magos is tasked with fixing the field generator whilst the pragmatic Commissar, raw Space Marine Scout and grizzled veteran Guardsman head to hold off the waves of demons pouring into the ship.
It is a hard fight, many of the intrepid troupe are wounded but they finally seal the field breach and finish off the warpspawn. They regroup on the bridge and consult the star charts to determine their location, only to find they have been flung to the far side of the galaxy, beyond Imperium space and that the breach of the gellar field has disabled their warp drive. With horror they realise they are within Ork-held territory and that they have no alternative but to land on the nearest habitable planet in order to restock what meagre supplies survived the warp incursion if they are to have any hope of making it back to Imperium space....
Where they would immediately either be executed for some Kafkaesque(or Pythonesque depending on tone) reason, or co-opted by one of the aforementioned powerful people/groups.
As I said, there are countless situational scenarios you can come up with, but they were either already possible or so out-there they're better accomplished using a ruleset with total creative freedom or your own for-that-purpose modifications to the existing one.
EDIT: Right, whatever. Evidently some folk here are determined to take criticism of a product as a personal and vicious assault, so once again I find myself questioning what the point of a discussion forum is when people don't actually want to discuss anything, just affirm to each other that they all indeed agree. You all have fun with that.
hate them.
