JWBS wrote: That's potentially like saying SCGSC is 250pts and the CPBA is 500pts. Comparison makes no sense, the factions are different. It's highly (and very obviously) selective.
That's what I said. Also SC! Thunderstrike Brotherhood is over 1000 pts.
JWBS wrote: That's potentially like saying SCGSC is 250pts and the CPBA is 500pts. Comparison makes no sense, the factions are different. It's highly (and very obviously) selective.
That's what I said. Also SC! Thunderstrike Brotherhood is over 1000 pts.
Right, but it's not really indicative of a problem with Vanguard (which I think is what you're arguing) if it's so volatile between the various SC boxes themselves. The relevant comparison would be between SC nurgle and Vanguard nurgle, and even then it's an argument about points values that is likely irrelevant unless you're also willing to apply it to the highest point SC and the lowest point SC (and then it would still arguably be unuseful given that this isn't how armies are priced with regards to points per currency value).
Overread wrote: Eh the problem is those kind of purchases become pointless. 2 squigs can't be fielded so now you've got to buy several packs - you might as well either just save and get one regular box or multiple boxes at once to actually "use" them in the game.
If one is push fit, limited on options or such then that's going to be less popular.
You may probably be right but I think theres something here that you may have not considered. For example not all buys are with the intent to "Play" so if you have a range of blisters say with 2 squigs, another with a river troll, other with a fanatic etc
I could see myself getting a full range of these just to paint, convert, build own warbands for RPG and mess around with.
Not everything is about building a legal army with x number of units and models, theres a full GW hobby outside GW gaming.
Potentially people would simply pop in more to GW stores at lunch just to get that cheap blister because of reasons rather than once a month to get the big box they planned and been saving for.
GW is all about getting people into their stores and this for one would be a reason to do so.
Overread wrote: Hachette is a good example of lower prices working, however at the same time its important to note that its different to a main release. It's essentially just a very drawn out christmas bundle release of two armies. Not the entire product line; not everything and each release is a fixed number of issues (expanded but still always a fixed number; its not produced until demand is gone).
So in general its not the same as making all your prices lower forever; its a short term lower price to generate fast sales which then should translate into more sales of higher value items for more profit later
Also its probably a logistical nightmare to keep a magazine and split sprues in stock.
But we are just armchair talking here, for fun, but I did miss going to the GW store and getting something on a cheaper price bracket. I think the way GW is going with the new bigger boxes is that cheap pick up things are not part of what they want on the menu.
Yeah apparently the majority of miniatures bought from GW are never used to play games. In my case, most of them are never even built let alone painted (I used to consider myself a painter but I've come to the realisation I'm basically just a collector that paints maybe 10% of the stuff I buy). I think Kirby once said "Most of our customers just really like buying miniatures" or something along those lines.
JWBS wrote: Yeah apparently the majority of miniatures bought from GW are never used to play games. In my case, most of them are never even built let alone painted (I used to consider myself a painter but I've come to the realisation I'm basically just a collector that paints maybe 10% of the stuff I buy). I think Kirby once said "Most of our customers just really like buying miniatures" or something along those lines.
JWBS wrote: Yeah apparently the majority of miniatures bought from GW are never used to play games. In my case, most of them are never even built let alone painted (I used to consider myself a painter but I've come to the realisation I'm basically just a collector that paints maybe 10% of the stuff I buy). I think Kirby once said "Most of our customers just really like buying miniatures" or something along those lines.
JWBS wrote: Yeah apparently the majority of miniatures bought from GW are never used to play games. In my case, most of them are never even built let alone painted (I used to consider myself a painter but I've come to the realisation I'm basically just a collector that paints maybe 10% of the stuff I buy). I think Kirby once said "Most of our customers just really like buying miniatures" or something along those lines.
Short version, according to an investor their inquiry was answered by GW's representative that GW's customers were 20% gamers, 80% collectors.
To my knowledge there has never been further confirmation of it, nor evidence against it. It's not something that was attributed to Kirby directly as far as I'm aware, but because it very much sounds like something he would say and as the CEO at the time, one may not be inclined to make a difference between the official company line and the CEO's thoughts and so it's often recalled as "Kirby did it".
Of course it's a completely ridiculous statement if we draw on something Kirby did say, namely that market research is otiose in a niche market and they know their customers. Without utilizing even as simple a tool as a survey GW could not possibly have any data to back those numbers.
JWBS wrote: Yeah apparently the majority of miniatures bought from GW are never used to play games. In my case, most of them are never even built let alone painted (I used to consider myself a painter but I've come to the realisation I'm basically just a collector that paints maybe 10% of the stuff I buy). I think Kirby once said "Most of our customers just really like buying miniatures" or something along those lines.
I'm in this post and I don't like it.
Accurate, though.
yeah me to - trying to get my stuff painted or buy painted now.
Of course it's a completely ridiculous statement if we draw on something Kirby did say, namely that market research is otiose in a niche market and they know their customers. Without utilizing even as simple a tool as a survey GW could not possibly have any data to back those numbers.
On the other hand, continued success of 40k and AoS, two barely-games designed purely to dump your collection on the table and bash against the other players' figures does suggest there's something to it. No one *needs* 5k of marines to play the game yet people regularly buy and sometimes even paint absurd amounts of toy soldiers. GW "hobby" is collectibles with a game attached from that perspective.
And yet when GW leaned into that whole "people just collect models" the market died for AoS on launch. Granted that wasn't the only aspect, but it wasn't the all singing dancing sales they thought.
Behind many collectors is a person who wants to play who perhaps just doesn't get the chance, but the like the idea of it. It provides a focus and structure to the collecting and perhaps an end of year objective or such. Take that fully away and it loses all context and drive.
Also don't forget GW's metric for playing is based mostly on data from their stores. It doesn't (and can't) account for all the basement/garage and casual play that happens at small groups clubs and such. GW can only measure playing metrics on the public stuff - the stores, events, clubs that register, facebook etc...
Also because the collector/painter market overlaps the gamer market the former will always be larger than the latter because the former includes most of the latter within the same bracket of users.
I never said they should just pivot towards collectibles (they're licensing that off nowadays instead), but in the grand scheme of things, unless you play every week regularly, you spend much, much more time collecting than playing. You're a collector that plays with the models. It's a mixed hobby, but if people only bought what they needed to play, GW would go bankrupt in a year.
GW sells models to collectors that sometimes play games with the models. The game is the ostensible reason for the collection, so you can't really discard it, but you don't have to focus too much on it as long as it provides structure to the collection (because us nerds love segregating our things into sub-collections). If the game mattered *that much*, again GW would be forced to write rules that aren't the shallowest, most imbalanced rules on the market.
In the end, GW is right to think that what it sells is the collectible experience, but without the game aspect, people have no impetus to collect in the first place.
Of course it's a completely ridiculous statement if we draw on something Kirby did say, namely that market research is otiose in a niche market and they know their customers. Without utilizing even as simple a tool as a survey GW could not possibly have any data to back those numbers.
On the other hand, continued success of 40k and AoS, two barely-games designed purely to dump your collection on the table and bash against the other players' figures does suggest there's something to it. No one *needs* 5k of marines to play the game yet people regularly buy and sometimes even paint absurd amounts of toy soldiers. GW "hobby" is collectibles with a game attached from that perspective.
For context this was during the death throes of Kirby's regime after the AoS launch failed pretty substantially. GW had to announce ever declining profits year after year before that and at that point it seemed likely they'd actually start posting losses. The whole 20% gamers thing was connected to GW's appeasement of investors to allay fears that ending Fantasy (with all the uproar that caused) and failing to find a market for AoS would finally push them in the red.
Actual customer behavior, aside from just not buying enough GW product anymore, has nothing to do with it.
I don't call it out as a ridiculous statement because I have certain ideas how customers like to justify buying toy soldiers, but because GW at the time had no scientific basis for throwing out such numbers. It would have been propaganda aimed at investors at best and guesswork on which they based their struggling business at worst. And to any investor following the situation and Kirby's earlier statements closely, it should have raised a red flag. Even if it turned out that GW guessed the ratio and customer categories correctly and made the best business choices* if only by accident, it would still have been dumb to base business strategy on a guess and try to sell investors of your luck based plans.
* Which Kirby's GW evidently did not. As it turns out, Rountree took the company to unprecedented heights and little of his success was out of reach under Kirby if only he had chosen similar action.
Be sure to join us on Thursday the 18th of November, when we’ll be revealing all of this year’s Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Age of Sigmar Battleforces in preparation for the holiday season. Not only do they save you money compared to picking up the constituent units separately, but each Battleforce will provide the perfect start – or significant reinforcements – to any collection.
On the collectors vs gamers point it should be noted that the games only exist to provide a framework for collecting. The story is that way back when Brayn Ansell noticed army sets like "King Dorin's Throng" sold well so asked Rick Priestley to make some rules so people could use these "Armies". 100% of GW customers are collectors.
Nah, without the games Warhammer dies. The overwhelming majority 'collect' to play the game. We've seen multiple times across the years that when the game improves sales go up, significantly. It may have been arguable in the past, but after the AoS launch and 40k 8th it isn't really up for debate anymore.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Nah, without the games Warhammer dies. The overwhelming majority 'collect' to play the game. We've seen multiple times across the years that when the game improves sales go up, significantly. It may have been arguable in the past, but after the AoS launch and 40k 8th it isn't really up for debate anymore.
Agreed. We literally saw GW quickly circling the drain from Aos 1st edition and 40k 7th. It took essentially 2 new editions to bring the company back up, and with 9th and 3rd it's doing better than it ever has.
Albertorius wrote: Hey, she's pretty cool. Although I think I'd prefer to clip the other horn too for a more Hellboy-like look.
As a huge Hellboy fan, I love that idea. Honestly, I'm trying to figure out how she would have lost one horn without damaging the other. I feel like anything damaging one horn would probably have to at least nick the other
Albertorius wrote: Hey, she's pretty cool. Although I think I'd prefer to clip the other horn too for a more Hellboy-like look.
As a huge Hellboy fan, I love that idea. Honestly, I'm trying to figure out how she would have lost one horn without damaging the other. I feel like anything damaging one horn would probably have to at least nick the other
To my eyes it looks like it was broken off rather than cut.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Nah, without the games Warhammer dies. The overwhelming majority 'collect' to play the game. We've seen multiple times across the years that when the game improves sales go up, significantly. It may have been arguable in the past, but after the AoS launch and 40k 8th it isn't really up for debate anymore.
9th is a horrible mess that removed all manner of on-table interactions in favor of buffs, auras and on-paper only effects like stratagems, and yet it's basically the best edition ever in terms of sales.
GW games basically need to be minimally-viable products that let you play something resembling a coherent game to work as a vehicle for collecting.
IMO it goes like this: new person sees cool mini, fantasy or 40k. Maybe buy a box, maybe just research. If there was no game, that'd be it. But there is a game, now they have a reason to buy more models to collect. So they do. At that point, the game becomes an excuse to collect more, even if they have 10,000 points and literally do not have the space to put them all to table at once. The game needs to exist, but that's more or less all it needs to do- it provides a structure to the collecting.
Also, that chaos lady might be the first AoS model this year I've considered buying, if she's priced sensibly I might get her, the design is great.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Nah, without the games Warhammer dies. The overwhelming majority 'collect' to play the game. We've seen multiple times across the years that when the game improves sales go up, significantly. It may have been arguable in the past, but after the AoS launch and 40k 8th it isn't really up for debate anymore.
I would say main collect to ‘intend’ to play. Actually playing is another matter. But the rationale is there, even if the reality is different.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Nah, without the games Warhammer dies. The overwhelming majority 'collect' to play the game. We've seen multiple times across the years that when the game improves sales go up, significantly. It may have been arguable in the past, but after the AoS launch and 40k 8th it isn't really up for debate anymore.
Mostly when people say a thing "isn't up for debate anymore" they'll provide some solid and relevant data to prove beyond a doubt though won't they? Rather than mere suppositions.
I'm trying to be happy that more people can get this model, but I can't deny I'm a tiny bit irritated that I queued up for two hours to get it for no reason now.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Nah, without the games Warhammer dies. The overwhelming majority 'collect' to play the game. We've seen multiple times across the years that when the game improves sales go up, significantly. It may have been arguable in the past, but after the AoS launch and 40k 8th it isn't really up for debate anymore.
Mostly when people say a thing "isn't up for debate anymore" they'll provide some solid and relevant data to prove beyond a doubt though won't they? Rather than mere suppositions.
Yeah, they would. It doesn't mean people won't ignore it anyways, though.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Nah, without the games Warhammer dies. The overwhelming majority 'collect' to play the game. We've seen multiple times across the years that when the game improves sales go up, significantly. It may have been arguable in the past, but after the AoS launch and 40k 8th it isn't really up for debate anymore.
I would say main collect to ‘intend’ to play. Actually playing is another matter. But the rationale is there, even if the reality is different.
From my own buying habits, I can see that Start Collecting boxes were a huge success in getting me to buy loads of crap. I picked up loads of them and have been slowly working through them since. They made me quite excited about the games again, because they were accessible.
So far, the Combat Patrols have not had the same impact. But I think that's for two reasons - I already have the SC for many of the factions I am interested in, so I don't need a CP as well in most cases. And the high price on the CP is just above my threshold for "yeah, I'll pick that up!" and into "Hmmm. Do I need this, really?" and that pause means I'm not buying them the same way. Hard to disaggregate the two effects, and of course this is just an anecdote from me.
I started the post with the word "unfortunately", but then I realised nah, it's not really unfortunate that I'm not spending money on boxes of miniatures to sit in my cupboard for years. It's a good thing!
I'm trying to be happy that more people can get this model, but I can't deny I'm a tiny bit irritated that I queued up for two hours to get it for no reason now.
I just wish they'd stop having these event-exclusive minis, since not all of us have a Warhammer store nearby or can get out to Adepticon.
I'm trying to be happy that more people can get this model, but I can't deny I'm a tiny bit irritated that I queued up for two hours to get it for no reason now.
That's how I feel about picking up the Sister of Battle boxset. They re-released it at a lower price and included a rhino.
I mean, it's nice people can get the model, but it's why I'm always afraid to pick up any exclusive model off ebay, since the price is higher and it may eventually be re released
But with the disruption to global shipping, the Stormdrake Guard are being released later than originally planned – which gave the Warhammer Studio extra time to playtest the power of all-dragon lists. As it turned out, they could absolutely steamroll certain armies in a single turn of fire and fury, if they had a few above-the-odds dice rolls.
I'm absolutely sure GW will take notice of this and extend the playtest cycle to make sure stuff like this is caught from now on, and not just because a boat was stuck in a traffic jam somewhere off the coast of ohio.
Cronch wrote: I mean, giant video game companies like Activision or EA don't do it either, so GW is just following the trend i spose.
True. and it's also a lousy way of working, but at least fixes to these are a download.
For GW, it means the printed book is all wrong and that is something that sits on the shelves for maybe 3 years for people to buy.
I really hope GW learn from this.
They basically admitted to "We made up all the info in the book without playtesting. Now we playtested, we realised what a pile of crap it was"
with the main difference, If I buy a faulty EA product and it gets patched later, I get the patched version too
and if I not buy on release but wait I either get the faulty version for less or the patched one
If I buy a GW faulty GW book and it gets patched later, I still have the faulty GW books and no matter how long I wait, I can only buy the faulty version for full price
Cronch wrote:
I'm absolutely sure GW will take notice of this and extend the playtest cycle to make sure stuff like this is caught from now on, and not just because a boat was stuck in a traffic jam somewhere off the coast of ohio.
I can quite assure you, there aren't any cargo ship traffic jams in Lake Erie right now.
Well duh, GW did say they're finally on their way so the traffic jam has been un-jammed. GW tried to save money sending it's cargo through the northwest passage and that's the result.
As for video games and "fixing" stuff, how's that 10-year support for Anthem going?
Holga's sprue looks interesting, different to anything I've got from GW previously myself. Is this indicative of a newer machine/tech that GW is using or a different factory from elsewhere entirely?
Scrub wrote: Holga's sprue looks interesting, different to anything I've got from GW previously myself. Is this indicative of a newer machine/tech that GW is using or a different factory from elsewhere entirely?
The round sprue twist off thing? It's the same as Japanese blind bag minis and a few event characters, though dunno who made it.
Scrub wrote: Holga's sprue looks interesting, different to anything I've got from GW previously myself. Is this indicative of a newer machine/tech that GW is using or a different factory from elsewhere entirely?
The round sprue twist off thing? It's the same as Japanese blind bag minis and a few event characters, though dunno who made it.
GW has outsourced sprue production to WGF in the past and WGF does produce sprues with the rounded shape. They might have outsource full machining to of the mold to WGF for this one due to backlogs.
I can't remember but were the previous MTO characters available through 3rd party retailers? If so, I am surprised to see that Holga hasn't been listed by any of the usual suspects in the UK..
I've wanted that model ever since I saw the first photos and to be honest, $35 with free shipping wasn't a bad price.
Getting 2. One for the model as is, another for conversion potential. Going to switch out the head and arms, or just the head and a different weapon. Perhaps something from a Blightking kit to recreate the old Chaos Lord of Nurgle who had a similiar pose.
I appreciate the fact that they made the flowing hair separate from the rest of the model, as far as I can tell. Will make switching out parts easier and less work to convert.
I kind of want her but at the same time my Slaves to Darkness force is more themed toward Slaanesh/Conan styles and she's sort of more generic Chaos Warrior. Which is 100% fantastic it just might not be quite enough for me at this time. If she came out 3 months ago or in 3 months chances are I'd be all over the model.
Interesting to hear that Holga was outsourced, it's a really lovely model too and the sprue gate connections look super clean and easy to... err, clean. Torn on whether to pick one up though, I mean it's still £20 that could go towards a Battleforce instead tbh.
kodos wrote: with the main difference, If I buy a faulty EA product and it gets patched later, I get the patched version too
and if I not buy on release but wait I either get the faulty version for less or the patched one
If I buy a GW faulty GW book and it gets patched later, I still have the faulty GW books and no matter how long I wait, I can only buy the faulty version for full price
Hard copy gets you the digital one for free, which is patched.
kodos wrote: with the main difference, If I buy a faulty EA product and it gets patched later, I get the patched version too
and if I not buy on release but wait I either get the faulty version for less or the patched one
If I buy a GW faulty GW book and it gets patched later, I still have the faulty GW books and no matter how long I wait, I can only buy the faulty version for full price
Hard copy gets you the digital one for free, which is patched.
Theoretically. The app just takes a good old while to change anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said, I'm actually a fan of the app.
Eh? 120€ is normal for huge based Special Character leaders. This is the first release in a while without a price hike. All those unsold Dominions, Octariuses and Harrowdeeps littering shelves worldwide must have hit home.
tinbee wrote: Let's hope the dragons come in boxes of two!
Baby dragons do. I was hoping for Dracothian Guard prices though.
I mean, these are big pieces. Way bigger than the guard. The Stormcast rider actually looks quite small on the dragon itself. I think in terms of length at least they're close to Alarielle size if i've done my comparison right.
But where are the Fire Dragons from the Eldar??? Would have been perfect time to release them as a new plastic kit or a made to order of the really old ones.
Togusa wrote: I am confused. I ordered Holga, and it says 120 days. However, I just got shipping letting me know the model is on its way from Memphis, TN.
Togusa wrote: I am confused. I ordered Holga, and it says 120 days. However, I just got shipping letting me know the model is on its way from Memphis, TN.
.
120 is worst case. Was it made to order release? Usual for those as gw doesn't want to give date they aren't confident they can deliver and when you order they have no certainty how many orders they will get.
Do you prefer being said 2 weeks and then it comes 3 months later or be warned might take 120 days and then get it in week?
Also note all don't get same time it. Some likely still waiting.
Togusa wrote: I am confused. I ordered Holga, and it says 120 days. However, I just got shipping letting me know the model is on its way from Memphis, TN.
I believe it's for if they run out of initial stock. Gives 'em time to make a second print run.
They said the same thing about the Warhammer Day Primaris Lt, and that arrived within a week of ordering it.
Dunno about reliability(translocation "change" isn't exactly that big mark for believability ) but interesting. Point change targets were predictable. New warscroll already more curious. Move&charge in hero phase getting nerfed?
tneva82 wrote: Dunno about reliability(translocation "change" isn't exactly that big mark for believability ) but interesting. Point change targets were predictable. New warscroll already more curious. Move&charge in hero phase getting nerfed?
This is definitely not true simply because we've already had points changes for dragons.
tneva82 wrote: Dunno about reliability(translocation "change" isn't exactly that big mark for believability ) but interesting. Point change targets were predictable. New warscroll already more curious. Move&charge in hero phase getting nerfed?
This is definitely not true simply because we've already had points changes for dragons.
So it prevents it being there as well? How? Pdf max sized so they can't put same line there?
Actually i would expect them to put the price on some pdf. You want to need to search old whc article to see new points after month?
And for comparison we know the new dark eldar and admech points in 40k data slate are from point review coming in future.
Ithe new warscroll is LOT more suspicious than points. In fact point change there too was expected
An AOS playtester admitted on stream that he did not play with the new Stormcast, leading to the nerf on dragons.
I think it is about this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxwbcfT1fF8
Edited by ingtaer - please check that screenshots posted here do not contain swearing.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I swear this site is falling further and further. Are we really posting screenshots from 4chan of all cesspits?
is that where those things come from, I kept seeing them come up in other places, did not realise it was a legitimate forum and just assumed it was like reddit, full of nutters screaming at each other haha
Don’t understand the 4chan quote. I think anyone who plays the game even in a casual atmosphere can look at a warscrolls rules, then at its point cost and immediately know if the cost is out of whack.
Regardless, I think people imagine playtesters as having way more sway then they actually do. Russ has diplomatically alluded to that in previous videos.
The vibe I got was that it was a solid change. They are still useable and the change was moderate to my mind. I’d say there are definitely more egregious balance offenders that needed addressing before the dragon riders, but this seemed like a unique case.
Certain rumors from certain forums that Cinderfall Gaming didn't mentioned or I just skipped to the slide he uploads to YT and didn't realized:
- OBR in January. Arteks and Liege on monster. Right.
- IDK vs FS in a box in april. The hell? Why? They don't hate each other like the rival Chaos Gods do, why would they have a two armies in a box deal?
- Ogors mid year. Right.
- GSG vs StD near Xmas. Because is cool to rumour about Gitz being part of a two armies box.
- Malerion and trademarked Shadow Elves Q1 2023. I think he has to arrive in this edition.
- Seraphon and Skaven 2023, but not a double box, instead massive revamp for older models. The Greater Plan knows that Lizardmen will have new models for TOW, but given the fact that they are focusing first on the old Empire and surroundings continent, I don't expect them to be a priority in a longer while.
- Then Khorne, LRL, Sylvaneth and Cities. I mean, that's specific but everybody will have a new tome sooner or later...
- Narrative, Nagash is at it again, Ollynder related, new faction, "Silent People". What?
- StD now includes BoC because BoC are unimportant, bad, unfixable or a combination of the previous three, I guess.
- Total of three new factions: Shadumbraneth Aelves, Silent People and CHORFS.
- Bastions of Order, who knows when. Kislev models compatible with AoS, justified as a city in northen Ghur. But aren't the realms pretty much endless?
- 4E 2026. LRL vs Slaanesh. >Insert Shrek opening meme here<
- They removing every single non-Thunderstrike SCE with an upgraded Thunderstrike version. Just like they did with Firstborn Spess Muhreens. ¬¬
- Upgrade sprues for the new dragons with mage and wizard parts. I mean this one wouldn't be surprising at all.
nels1031 wrote: Don’t understand the 4chan quote. I think anyone who plays the game even in a casual atmosphere can look at a warscrolls rules, then at its point cost and immediately know if the cost is out of whack.
problem is, if you have play testers that don't play the game but just look at units to say if they are fine or not, there is no playtesting
looking at individual units in a vaccum but never playing the whole army against other factions is the point why GW's balance is off in the first place (which they promised to change with external playtesters
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I swear this site is falling further and further. Are we really posting screenshots from 4chan of all cesspits?
I forgot that we need to wait for rumours to quoted on spikeybits or BOLS until we are allowed to post them here (with all romours we get fro years now are either from 4chan or reddit)
Edited by ingtaer - please check that screenshots posted here do not contain swearing.
Even had he played would it have mattered? GW isn't exactly known for even asking about point values from playtesters...In fact opposite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CMLR wrote: Certain rumors from certain forums that Cinderfall Gaming didn't mentioned or I just skipped to the slide he uploads to YT and didn't realized:.
Believability: Zero. Has there been ever actual reliable rumours for 5 years ahead? And lol at 4e at 2026. That's way too late for GW's new release cycle. They want to press print me some money button faster than that.
With the sprue photos on GW store at least we can resolve the argument- the horizontal creases in big dragons' wings are sculpted, not connection points
Just a quick little thing. My Holga came in today and I noticed something interesting; the peg on her foot is hexagonal and the 32mm base actually has a hexagonal hole in it.
I've never seen that before. Is this something new or just a quirk of the "commemorative" models?
Regardless, I'm just happy she doesn't have a tactical rock like my other champion or my Archaon-on-foot.
lord_blackfang wrote: Eh? 120€ is normal for huge based Special Character leaders. This is the first release in a while without a price hike. All those unsold Dominions, Octariuses and Harrowdeeps littering shelves worldwide must have hit home.
120€ being normal is the problem, right there. That is insane.
KidCthulhu wrote: Just a quick little thing. My Holga came in today and I noticed something interesting; the peg on her foot is hexagonal and the 32mm base actually has a hexagonal hole in it.
I've never seen that before. Is this something new or just a quirk of the "commemorative" models?
Regardless, I'm just happy she doesn't have a tactical rock like my other champion or my Archaon-on-foot.
Its pretty common. A lot of boxed set stuff has that- pretty sure all of indomitus had hex pegs rather than round ones.
GW has been building a few more casual "get the model build and on the table to play fast" features into models. PushFit features that let people get into playing fast.
I figure the idea is that it means a selection of models can be bought, built and (without glue or paints) thrown on the table to play with right there an then. Creating a quick reward system for people to lure them in.
This design ethos likely bleeds into other things, like how they design pegs for models now. So even models that aren't in the push-fit system might well start to bare hallmarks of those design elements - like hex pegs.
CMLR wrote: Certain rumors from certain forums that Cinderfall Gaming didn't mentioned or I just skipped to the slide he uploads to YT and didn't realized:
- OBR in January. Arteks and Liege on monster. Right.
- IDK vs FS in a box in april. The hell? Why? They don't hate each other like the rival Chaos Gods do, why would they have a two armies in a box deal?
- Ogors mid year. Right.
- GSG vs StD near Xmas. Because is cool to rumour about Gitz being part of a two armies box.
- Malerion and trademarked Shadow Elves Q1 2023. I think he has to arrive in this edition.
- Seraphon and Skaven 2023, but not a double box, instead massive revamp for older models. The Greater Plan knows that Lizardmen will have new models for TOW, but given the fact that they are focusing first on the old Empire and surroundings continent, I don't expect them to be a priority in a longer while.
- Then Khorne, LRL, Sylvaneth and Cities. I mean, that's specific but everybody will have a new tome sooner or later...
- Narrative, Nagash is at it again, Ollynder related, new faction, "Silent People". What?
- StD now includes BoC because BoC are unimportant, bad, unfixable or a combination of the previous three, I guess.
- Total of three new factions: Shadumbraneth Aelves, Silent People and CHORFS.
- Bastions of Order, who knows when. Kislev models compatible with AoS, justified as a city in northen Ghur. But aren't the realms pretty much endless?
- 4E 2026. LRL vs Slaanesh. >Insert Shrek opening meme here<
- They removing every single non-Thunderstrike SCE with an upgraded Thunderstrike version. Just like they did with Firstborn Spess Muhreens. ¬¬
- Upgrade sprues for the new dragons with mage and wizard parts. I mean this one wouldn't be surprising at all.
4E in 2026 would be shocking. The three year update cycle has become part of GW's rhythm over the last six years or so. It would make some sense to have a bit of delay given COVID, but it's not like they've had a slow year releasing new models and rules. While there is always some grousing, the new edition launches seem to help sales. Interesting if true!
Voss wrote: Its pretty common. A lot of boxed set stuff has that- pretty sure all of indomitus had hex pegs rather than round ones.
I think the newest models I bought before this were the B&N reboxed Blackstone Fortress guys (Admech, Servitor, Crusader, Female Psyker, & Rogue Trader) and they had slottas. Before that, I got the reboxed Chainraps (slotta) VS SCE's (round pegs). So the hex-pegs were new to me.
The Holga model comes off the sprue so nicely with little to no cleanup. She's gonna be a joy to paint..
4E in 2026 would be shocking. The three year update cycle has become part of GW's rhythm over the last six years or so. It would make some sense to have a bit of delay given COVID, but it's not like they've had a slow year releasing new models and rules. While there is always some grousing, the new edition launches seem to help sales. Interesting if true!
It's been a difficult year for the British Empire so delay is unsurprising. At this point in the release cadence 40k already had 5 or so books out(to be fair quite a few of them were supplements) whereas AoS is struggling with two updated tomes. With how slow AoS is starting off I'd say it would be a bad move to do an edition update change too soon. Same goes for 40k with a lot of codexes being delayed over the past year and near future.
Hard to know what’s going on with the rumours there’s a lot coming out of 4chan with none shown to be correct yet - but few disproven as GW seem to be behind on AoS releases.
One thing mentioned by Rob on the Honest Wargamer is that the winter FAQ has been leaked so it should be due soon. Only thing he mentioned was Kragnos up to around 800 pts but gains a 5+ ward and a version of Mightier makes rightier
DaveC wrote: Hard to know what’s going on with the rumours there’s a lot coming out of 4chan with none shown to be correct yet - but few disproven as GW seem to be behind on AoS releases.
One thing mentioned by Rob on the Honest Wargamer is that the winter FAQ has been leaked so it should be due soon. Only thing he mentioned was Kragnos up to around 800 pts but gains a 5+ ward and a version of Mightier makes rightier
Groan. Yet another price increase for kragnos? Okay ward is nice but seeing how junk he is now...
Well at least solves 150 pts handicap my behemoths been playing with after last kragnos price hike.
Hopefully he now at least is worth it. Funny how worst model behemoths can field got price hike first.
If the only way for them to be viable is to be as obnoxious as they were good ridance. I'm sick of Lumineth rules being basically "we broke all general rules of the game. Like, all of them"
And probably a new Warscroll, too, since it feels like they get one every time the wind changes. It feels like GW is trying to just price them out of the game.
tneva82 wrote: No, it removes non fun playing experience where those invalidate entire armies.
Nah, not really. It removes an element that people actually had to interact with and couldn't just spam tarpits at.
You're wrong. Some armies had no reasonable means of dealing with this exploit. It was unfun and entirely unnecessary for the unit to be viable. If you personally cannot figure out how to use the unit without such an ability then it shows just how much of a crutch it really was.
And probably a new Warscroll, too, since it feels like they get one every time the wind changes. It feels like GW is trying to just price them out of the game.
I'm not so sure; it is a very difficult mechanic to get right but I think GW has finally landed on a version that works. They are just undercosted atm, a bump to 255 would be appropriate in my eyes. Keep in mind that 10 pink horrors is 50 wounds worth of models, and that the unit actually increases in effectiveness when splitting into blues; 10 pinks that suffer 10 wounds turn into 20 blues with 33% increased offense and double the model count.
Celebrate Christmas the Orruk Way with this Year’s Festive Miniatures
This year’s special festive models are an orruk brute boss and his grot mate who have a special affinity for hunting skaven. Without further ado, here are Bawla and Burk.
While Bawla merrily hacks his way through skaven armies, Burk keeps the rat swarms out of his way. In fact, this grot is so cunning, we doubt that rat will ever catch him!
As you can see, Bawla isn’t just good at slaying rodents – that definitely looks like a Stormcast Eternals helmet hitched to his belt, most likely as a trophy.
Bawla and Burk will be available at your local Warhammer store between the 26th of December and the 2nd of January. Don’t worry if you can’t get out to get yours, because this perilous pair will then be made available on games-workshop.com between the 3rd of January and the 9th of January on a Made to Order basis – so everyone who wants these incredible miniatures can get them.
In games of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, you can use the deadly duo as a characterful leader for a unit of Orruk Brutes. Alternatively, the diorama is a great painting challenge, or perhaps you’ll use it as inspiration for next year’s Armies on Parade – we’d love to see a board of skaven-hunting orruks!
Get ready for the arrival of Bawla and Burk by picking up a unit of Orruk Brutes, and get in the mood for killing some Skaven with the classic Black Library novel Skavenslayer. And sign up for our newsletter so you don’t miss out on any more new model reveals.
Dysartes wrote: Anyone placing bets on what price the Stormcast and Kruleboyz sprues end up going for?
Hm, $75 for each.
I'd guess closer to $100 given their costs for the 40K one, but my local shop which doesn't normally do discounts had the Dominion box for $150 yesterday when I went in. I do not need a second copy.I do not need a second copy. I do not need a second copy. Though I might get a second copy tommorrow as the shop does a 20% credit for purchases on tuesdays....
40k is the frontrunner that they can get away with the highest pricing, as they move away from that prices get progressively less aggressive, even hitting downright reasonable on some of the specialist games. That's why I'm thinking it'll be less for the AoS one.
tneva82 wrote: Reportedly longstrikes and sentinels up 20, fulminators up 30
Pretty conservative change for the first two, given the amount of heat they get online.
Fulminators is interesting as they were arguably SCE's best unit per points once the recent Stormdrake points were revealed. Might've been the best even before the change, but now its a slightly tougher choice to select them.
I don't think I've seen any rumors of points/scroll changes that I disagree with so far. Tentatively excited for the update.
Sunmetal weapons would be one rule I'd hope they outright change rather than try to balance with points. If the trigger was on the wound roll Sentinels wouldn't be an issue.
tneva82 wrote: Reportedly longstrikes and sentinels up 20, fulminators up 30
Pretty conservative change for the first two, given the amount of heat they get online.
Fulminators is interesting as they were arguably SCE's best unit per points once the recent Stormdrake points were revealed. Might've been the best even before the change, but now its a slightly tougher choice to select them.
I don't think I've seen any rumors of points/scroll changes that I disagree with so far. Tentatively excited for the update.
Fulminators are just bonkers atm and pretty much invalidates other cavalry models so either they had to go up or others needs to go down. And frankly going up is better for external balance. They are just bonkers. Even just 2 have been MVP's for me consistently. Only reason not to field more is lack of models.
Shooter increases are indeed quite low and sentinels are still less than I was expecting pre-GHB reveals even on my concervative estimation. Still super good but does generally drop unit or maybe portal. Say pretty standard teclis list atm teclis+cathallar+loreseeker+20 wardens+30 sentinels+5 bladelords+portal you either drop bladelords, portal or loreseeker or 10 wardens to make room for sentinel increase. None of those is insignificant. 10 wardens or 5 bladelords probably easiest to lose but lack of bladelords make calthallar more vulnerable and generally you lose melee punch/screen.
NinthMusketeer wrote: 40k is the frontrunner that they can get away with the highest pricing, as they move away from that prices get progressively less aggressive, even hitting downright reasonable on some of the specialist games. That's why I'm thinking it'll be less for the AoS one.
I definitely hope you're right, but I don't think your reasoning works out. AoS started out with higher cost for Sigmarine troops (per model) before they were reboxed and established the current default of 45€ for ten models that has since also been adopted for 40k. I'm also not seeing a difference between AoS and 40k centerpiece models, such as Katakros and the Triumph of Saint Katherine.
Even before AoS found its footing the game has had high prices that matched 40k. GW has basically acknowledged with 3rd ed and the removal of free rules that AoS is established as a main game, and I don't think it's going to get anything cheaper than 40k. Outliers exist, of course, but by and large, I'd look at a comparable 40k kit to see where the price is headed.
With a big'un, a banner bearer and three elite troops each, they look pretty close to the Necron group from Indomitus to me, so I'd expect to see an 85€ price tag unless GW felt like raising prices again for the lulz.
Be fun to find out no matter the outcome. I bought Dominion, so I'm good either way. But I suspect I'll find I made the right choice once the price is revealed.
Ghaz wrote: So I guess this was the reason for the delay on the dragons earlier? (I wasn't really following that closely)
From beginning to end, this whole dragons fiasco has been a debacle - delayed release, nerfed, nerfed again... then miscast.
I've wanted these since they were announced but I've never been so happy to be poor. Hopefully by the time I get around to buying them all of this mess is over and done with. Shame they'll be about 1.5kpts for 2 of the little ones by then though.
I can't really fault them for delayed release though, given the current world situation.
And as far as the nerfs go, I'm not too miffed about them. Like I said when the dragon riders were nerfed, I'd have preferred a few other balance violators fixed first but I appreciate the effort. Then again, I like how they "rebalanced" them prior to their release so that folks weren't stuck with stuff they couldn't use or had the army list that they might've had in mind invalidated/changed.
I'm curious how/if GW will fix this miscast issue for folks. Send out a new sprue? Gift voucher? Wholesale replacement of the kit(not likely)?
Everything comes in cycles for the followers of Nurgle, and inevitability is part and parcel of life. We know that you’ve been waiting for the release of Battletome Maggotkin of Nurgle, and your patience is set to be rewarded with Grandfather’s bountiful gifts this Saturday.
Deep in the Garden of Nurgle, Grandfather concocts deadly diseases for his daemonic spawn and mortal followers to spread. He’s been working for a long time on this latest batch, and his results will bring calamity to your opponents with a new rule that will see your foes afflicted with deleterious agues and buboes.*
That’s right, even getting close to Maggotkin units triggers this. They’ve been learning from their kin in the 41st Millenium,and have amped up the foul smells, corrosive gasses, and swarms of biting insects.
Use this to promulgate a panoply of poxes to enemy units, making your opponent think twice about charging if they want to keep the contents of their stomachs. Unless infected units use healing magic or abilities, they won’t be able to shift this rot.
If you thought that was bad enough, you were wrong. The weapons of the Maggotkin make a mockery of good maintenance and hygiene.** These corroded slabs of metal and suppurating Daemon claws all weep with foul blights that transfer maladies every time they score a critical blow.
This isn’t the only vector for Disease Points. Spells and abilities also help you drown your foes in plague-ridden effluence.
This is a major change from their previous Battletome, and perfectly encapsulates what it feels like to try and battle against these grimy guys, where fatal blows simply cause flesh to slough off without major effect,*** while filth, flies, and rot wash back over you in retaliation.
Battletome: Maggotkin of Nurgle is worming its way to pre-order this Saturday, but keep an eye on the Warhammer Community website as we reveal a few more details of this bilious book of blights.
* He tests these diseases on the Poxfulcrum, a daemon bestowed with the twin gifts of extreme susceptibility to disease and the ability to overpower them rapidly. How… lucky?
** Let’s be honest, it’s not just the weapons.
*** Slough is our number-one Nurgle word. There are six more.
Is it, particularly? It doesn't seem bad, but you give 1 disease point at the end of movement and end of combat (both players?) and at the battleshock phase, on a 4+ it becomes a MW and all disease points but 1 go away. Diseased weapons will add a few more each fight, but if you go all in each turn, you're getting maybe 3.5 MW out on a unit you're attacking, and maybe 1 on a unit that's just nearby (and _close_ nearby).
Its a lot of bookkeeping for a bunch of rolls that's basically just a scattering of MWs.
It will be nice chip damage and plays into the attrition style they seem to be going for.
It will live and die by how the artifacts/traits/spells etc play into it. If there are apply them on 5+ abilities and weapons and auras that improve the more diseased the target is it will be powerful thematic and fun.
I am sure the krulboyz and stormcast boxes will be expensive. I love all things Orks but that fancy holiday mini is just too bland and basic. If they are going to release a limited miniature it should be something special like the Catachan commander to help out the stores. I wonder if the old management snuck in the back door with how the company is being run.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Will they still have that turn-to-turn cycle of life thing?
After having made sure people bought Blightwar to get the fancy cardboard cycle tracker, probably not
As someone who owns it... I hope I never have to use it again. The mechanic was neither much fun nor fitting to Nurgle. It ended up being a schizophrenic blob of random bonuses that changed every turn and may be fantastic or completely worthless.
This new disease mechanic, on the other hand, that I am liking quite a lot.
If they only give the disease chip damage Nurgle will be much worse off. The cycle game nurgle some speed and ability to hit hard. By the time the slow disease mechanic makes any real impact the game will be over.
broxus wrote: If they only give the disease chip damage Nurgle will be much worse off. The cycle game nurgle some speed and ability to hit hard. By the time the slow disease mechanic makes any real impact the game will be over.
But that chip damage is in addition to normal damage. And when taken in with the statlines that were leaked of the Blightkings and Glottkin, damage was going to go up even before the disease mechanic was revealed. If those two were getting buffed, its stands to reason that others in the book are as well, so I think the lethality of most Maggotkin units is going up.
Regarding speed, it always felt like the mobility that a Maggotkin army could display in certain instances felt out of character in my mind. Speed should be Slaanesh's thing.
We'll know soon for sure, though. I'm sure some reviews are going to pop up this weekend and the next week.
NinthMusketeer wrote: 40k is the frontrunner that they can get away with the highest pricing, as they move away from that prices get progressively less aggressive, even hitting downright reasonable on some of the specialist games. That's why I'm thinking it'll be less for the AoS one.
I definitely hope you're right, but I don't think your reasoning works out. AoS started out with higher cost for Sigmarine troops (per model) before they were reboxed and established the current default of 45€ for ten models that has since also been adopted for 40k. I'm also not seeing a difference between AoS and 40k centerpiece models, such as Katakros and the Triumph of Saint Katherine.
Even before AoS found its footing the game has had high prices that matched 40k. GW has basically acknowledged with 3rd ed and the removal of free rules that AoS is established as a main game, and I don't think it's going to get anything cheaper than 40k. Outliers exist, of course, but by and large, I'd look at a comparable 40k kit to see where the price is headed.
With a big'un, a banner bearer and three elite troops each, they look pretty close to the Necron group from Indomitus to me, so I'd expect to see an 85€ price tag unless GW felt like raising prices again for the lulz.
Be fun to find out no matter the outcome. I bought Dominion, so I'm good either way. But I suspect I'll find I made the right choice once the price is revealed.
Called it. Not an amazing feat, I know, but still.
Now that we're getting the Nurgle release, that wraps up all the previews for AoS we had, doesn't it? Or is anything still in the pipeline that I don't remember?
With the Advent engine showing off 40k stuff, I hope we'll get a New Year's preview for AoS.
Yeah we are starting to come to the end of the last 3 months preview which sets us up nicely for a new preview around Christmas/Newyears to take us into 2022. In addition it looks like the start is going to have at the very least a big Eldar release in the first 3 months.
I think the big reliable leak that happened a while back has some things hinted at for 2022, but I get the feeling that they were generic "this is coming" rather than dated or ordered and thus could be subject to change.
AOS is ripe with armies that need updates - from Skaven and Lizardmen who need modernising; through to Flesheaters, Ossiarchs and Fyreslayers who need bulking out. Heck just look how popular Lumineth are with their second wave reinforcing them model wise, even after all the cow and hammer jokes
With the new Maggotkin Tome coming out, for those that print models, you might check out the Valiant and the Vile Kickstarter. It is a cool modular kit for Nurgle units or...goody-two-shoes knights.
NinthMusketeer wrote: 40k is the frontrunner that they can get away with the highest pricing, as they move away from that prices get progressively less aggressive, even hitting downright reasonable on some of the specialist games. That's why I'm thinking it'll be less for the AoS one.
I definitely hope you're right, but I don't think your reasoning works out. AoS started out with higher cost for Sigmarine troops (per model) before they were reboxed and established the current default of 45€ for ten models that has since also been adopted for 40k. I'm also not seeing a difference between AoS and 40k centerpiece models, such as Katakros and the Triumph of Saint Katherine.
Even before AoS found its footing the game has had high prices that matched 40k. GW has basically acknowledged with 3rd ed and the removal of free rules that AoS is established as a main game, and I don't think it's going to get anything cheaper than 40k. Outliers exist, of course, but by and large, I'd look at a comparable 40k kit to see where the price is headed.
With a big'un, a banner bearer and three elite troops each, they look pretty close to the Necron group from Indomitus to me, so I'd expect to see an 85€ price tag unless GW felt like raising prices again for the lulz.
Be fun to find out no matter the outcome. I bought Dominion, so I'm good either way. But I suspect I'll find I made the right choice once the price is revealed.
Called it. Not an amazing feat, I know, but still.
Now that we're getting the Nurgle release, that wraps up all the previews for AoS we had, doesn't it? Or is anything still in the pipeline that I don't remember?
With the Advent engine showing off 40k stuff, I hope we'll get a New Year's preview for AoS.
I see my defeat, and bow to your superior predictive power.
I'm sure there will be something for AoS, but if the preview is dominated by Craftworlds that's fine. They deserve it.
Honestly I hope its dominated by Eldar and then perhaps a few small releases for AoS, a small "next Battletome" and then a hint of something "big" coming which will be whatever the next major AoS thing is.
If there is anything I'd say there should be more Cruel Boyz models of some kind to help flesh them out more, otherwise onto the next Tome
Omg this battletome is terrible. Overall, a massive nerf to nurgle (especially demons). If they had kept the point costs the same I would still say it was bad, but now I’d argue it is unplayable. Not sure what GW was thinking on this design.
broxus wrote: Omg this battletome is terrible. Overall, a massive nerf to nurgle (especially demons). If they had kept the point costs the same I would still say it was bad, but now I’d argue it is unplayable. Not sure what GW was thinking on this design.
I'll wait until I have it in-hand. Long history of pre-reviewers glazing over or misinterpreting a detail that turns out to be very important.
angryboy2k wrote: Those prices on the dominion sprues are mental. I bought an entire box of dominion for less than one of them.
wasn't expecting much but still disappointed, the Stormcast "Command" frames are 85€, with the 1st Edition SCE part of the box still on the website being 65€
Pretty sweet soulblight update coming up. One of the better wd updates.
Funny how article dismiss rest which has battle tactics which has 2 archievable, 1 which is very good and even better than couple ghb one. And as aos3 is about battle tactic having archievable battle tactics is big. Tournament games i had 2 i got big advantage as i could score 1 from my book. And that one wasn"t as good as this one...
Legion of blood got nice bonus as well. Grand strategy whatever. Hard to beat default ones.
It is amusing how often people not qualified to be making calls on what's good or not do so anyways, and in great abundance, as if it is a requirement for preview articles. I read the Goonhammer review on the Nurgle battletome and it was painful how far off the mark it was on so many facets.
Also pleasantly surprised they added the nuance of bonuses being worse for the dragon mounted lord. Exactly the sort of design details AoS needs, good work.
NinthMusketeer wrote: It is amusing how often people not qualified to be making calls on what's good or not do so anyways, and in great abundance, as if it is a requirement for preview articles. I read the Goonhammer review on the Nurgle battletome and it was painful how far off the mark it was on so many facets.
Also pleasantly surprised they added the nuance of bonuses being worse for the dragon mounted lord. Exactly the sort of design details AoS needs, good work.
I didn't see that one so can't comment. However, my opinion of these early access influencers is to take them with a pinch of salt. They get the early access because GW likes them... they logically don't want to upset GW and, therefore, their opinion is tarnished.
There is that, but also many of them are more hyped up than your average jaded dakka user - or they come from a casual hobby background and are more in the hobby than the game side of things.
Also in general they only get the books a short while before the videos have to go out; so chances are they are working on a glance through read rather than several good solid weeks of playtesting and reading and spotting the good and the bad.
The videos are purely aimed at being early impressions and quick glances at the content and an overview; rather than in-depth tactical analysis and experienced test results.
Goonhammer's review looks fine, to me. TBH, they tend to have experience with game mechanisms since they play / write a lot more than the average player on many levels - mostly competitive. Even with not much time to read / take into account all the in-game parameters, they're still making good points (fact that new maggotkins are much slower than before is indeed not just a "small nerf" in AoS).
I'd rather trust them more than a random dakkadakka user who thinks too highly of themselves.
If you want fair reviews Warhammer weekly is one of the best. To prepare for this review they each played two games against Nurgle with different armies. They both came away fairly impressed.
I think a lot of people criticise a book that's actually aimed at the middle. They fact they can't handle mega gargants is a problem with the sons book not the Nurgle book.
https://youtu.be/ntfaGo9cvZ0
Chikout wrote: If you want fair reviews Warhammer weekly is one of the best. To prepare for this review they each played two games against Nurgle with different armies. They both came away fairly impressed.
I think a lot of people criticise a book that's actually aimed at the middle. They fact they can't handle mega gargants is a problem with the sons book not the Nurgle book.
https://youtu.be/ntfaGo9cvZ0
I like where the book sits now but as 3.0 has been handing out rend and damage like candy I expect them to tumble as their resilience falls behind the curve.
The really disappointing thing is they clearly made a significant change to Diseased very late and didn't go through the book to adjust the mechanics which interact with it.
You may remember back when we looked at the dragons arriving in the Mortal Realms that we mentioned a balance update for Warhammer Age of Sigmar was on the way. We have more news on that front coming soon, so stay tuned to Warhammer-Community.com this week for more.
NinthMusketeer wrote: It is amusing how often people not qualified to be making calls on what's good or not do so anyways, and in great abundance, as if it is a requirement for preview articles. I read the Goonhammer review on the Nurgle battletome and it was painful how far off the mark it was on so many facets.
Also pleasantly surprised they added the nuance of bonuses being worse for the dragon mounted lord. Exactly the sort of design details AoS needs, good work.
I didn't see that one so can't comment. However, my opinion of these early access influencers is to take them with a pinch of salt. They get the early access because GW likes them... they logically don't want to upset GW and, therefore, their opinion is tarnished.
I'm not talking about optimism, if anything the opposite. A casual disregard for certain options being bad or not that useful when they are missing the synergy involved or simply not running the numbers to see how good it really is.
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tneva82 wrote: Amulet of destrny and unleash hell nerfed, kragnos got big buffs. 3d6 destruction charges oh yea!
Std units(including archaon) don't benefit from god specific allegiance abilities like destiny dice and bloodtithe.
I am loving it, a lot of great changes. Unleash hell is in a great spot now of being a useful tool but not absurdly so. Kragnos deserved his buffs too! The one change that I really disagree with is coalition StD units not getting allegiance, and it is more disappointment in the change of design direction. Being able to rope in marked units as part of the army was a great feature both thematically and mechanically, and makes a lot of sense as an evolution of a time where a mono-god army really was just marked StD units (or all daemons).
But that definitely doesn't overshadow how happy I am to see amulet brought into line, heroic recovery getting reigned in, and other changes. A very positive development for AoS.
From the reveal article for the next 40k battle box:
If you’re a fan of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, we will have a major reveal coming on Monday, pitting two allies of Order against one another in a battle of the elements.
That would fit the description. Not too interested in the factions myself, but it would be nice to see the Fyrslyr lineup expanded. They really haven't been treated well with how they only got a handful of kits while trying to be sold as an independent faction.
As much as a second wave Fyreslayers need price cuts (obviously in stealth-reboxing form but whatever); the core of the army is in a $60/10 and a $40/5 infantry kit coupled with a handful of $35 direct-only characters, and each of those amounts to the 100-160 point range. The start collecting box made building an army at least plausible but still wildly impractical.
A second wave containing anything with a decent price-to-points ratio would go a long way, but absurd pricing on the core of the army will hold things back as long as it stays that way.
NinthMusketeer wrote: As much as a second wave Fyreslayers need price cuts (obviously in stealth-reboxing form but whatever); the core of the army is in a $60/10 and a $40/5 infantry kit coupled with a handful of $35 direct-only characters, and each of those amounts to the 100-160 point range. The start collecting box made building an army at least plausible but still wildly impractical.
A second wave containing anything with a decent price-to-points ratio would go a long way, but absurd pricing on the core of the army will hold things back as long as it stays that way.
Yeah, some of the early AOS pricing is bizzare.
I'd really like to see an expanded Fyreslayer range. I'd seriously consider getting into them if there is more available. The range is just too limited to me right now.
Arbitrator wrote: You'll take your one hero model and you'll like it.
That's a distinct possibility, but it's hard to say. GW also has a vested interest in expanding factions to sell new models. Fyrslyrs have a lot of room for growth. They basically still exist as a mini faction made for the release version of AoS that has slept through the game's growth in the past half decade.
Maybe it's not entirely bad they languished for so long. Initially they were little more than a small portion of the old Dwarf army parted out and given a spin. Since then GW has figured out a lot better what they want out of the Age of Sigmar fluff and the models. Provided they get a larger model expansion, they might get something that is not limited by old perceptions of what a dwarf or a slayer is supposed to be and instead get models that appropriately reflect their character in the actual AoS setting.
Taken from the WH community page about the Chaos and Eldar battle box…
“ If you’re a fan of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, we will have a major reveal coming on Monday, pitting two allies of Order against one another in a battle of the elements.”
1 faction I have zero interest in playing(fyreslayers. Models), 1 I have mild interest into but both that I'm hoping for new codex to make the books bit less extreme and annoying to face. In a way hoping for nerf in ways but enough buffs that it's not nerf as such but sidegrade giving less frustrating opposition.
Tough unit(4+ ward, 2 wounds), always strike first, hit like a brick is not exactly most interactive units.
Similarly 2+ unrendable is pretty damn frustrating if you can't spam mortals. And unit that casually deals 60+ damage to monster(faced that) is something that is easy to balance.
But have enjoyed the first 3 battle tomes so have hopes for these ones too. Tone down the worst extremes. Doesn't have to be overall nerf in external balance either as you can lose some of the power but get otherways compensated.
And the only way fyreslayers could appeal for me would be for army to turn into more of elite army reducing model count(tons of duplications on those mono poses leads to dull looking army...) and make volkite berserkers playable(making start collecting feasible way to build army).
If it's berserker spam then it's a) bloody expensive army b) bloody boring looking with those mono pose models being spammed.
Also it wouldn't be a surprise for the box to cost more than others before as there are quite a lot of models in it.
Fury of the Deep has 230€ of models not counting the two new characters compared to the latest Vs-Boxset Shadow Throne which had 163€ of models not counting the two new characters. That one was light on models but even compared to the one before Piety and Pain had 183.5€ of models not counting the new characters.
So either they are giving us a bigger discount or it will have a bigger price tag
lord_blackfang wrote: The box of hideously overpriced basic infantry. It better have a better discount than usual or there's no point.
What's the resale value of the half you don't want going to be? Fyreslayers have always been AoS' least popular army and not many IDK players will be thinking "boy I wish I had 20 more Namarti."
The artwork of the fyreslayer does not match the model. Different beard, etc. Also, I don't blame them for not doing the "axe over the head" pose, given the mohawk.
I want to like the fyreslayer, but he's just so bleh
Wow, that dwarf is not good. Pretty much par to course for the fwuyreslayer, who s models are horrific for the most part. Shame since i like their concept.
This box screams disaster. Id be surprised if it sell out, unless they made a very small amount of them
Here have two new characters (I have Idoneth, so I really want the new fella) and then a bunch of stuff you already have and don't need. Like, just release the flippin model. Please.
The Thrallmaster is cool, definitely like him. The Dwarf is pretty subpar, which sucks because I feel like Fyreslayers need a total revamp. They're just such a boring army aesthetic wise. I think it'd be awesome if they had some kind of Elemental creatures that they summon, like "Magmapyre Flamehearts" or some such. But as is it's just a bunch of naked dwarves with some weird volcano dragons.
Duel boxes can be neat for someone just starting or expanding a small starter army. Eg the box with new Eldar from a year or two back was lamented as boring by many existing Eldar players, but for me it was a neat box as I could easily offload the DE part and swap for more Craftworld - giving me several falcons and vypers that I didn't have.
But yes the often long period between when that box sells out (which typically is not that far off when its released) and when the new models get their own boxed set sale - can be a very very long time. Which is very draining because its puts pressure on people who only want the new stuff and who don't want any of the old.
Overread wrote: I'm not in the running for either force.
Which is very draining because its puts pressure on people who only want the new stuff and who don't want any of the old.
Togusa wrote: Is anyone else tired of these box releases?
Been done with them, myself.
Just release the component parts as a new "Start Collecting" or (preferably) just launch the characters by themselves, with none of the production required for booklets or art.
And speaking of art : The box cover art is actually pretty awesome.
Duel boxes can be neat for someone just starting or expanding a small starter army. Eg the box with new Eldar from a year or two back was lamented as boring by many existing Eldar players, but for me it was a neat box as I could easily offload the DE part and swap for more Craftworld - giving me several falcons and vypers that I didn't have.
But yes the often long period between when that box sells out (which typically is not that far off when its released) and when the new models get their own boxed set sale - can be a very very long time. Which is very draining because its puts pressure on people who only want the new stuff and who don't want any of the old.
I guess my concern with the boxes is that they seem to have been getting cheaper and cheaper over time, look at the BT box with its 13 models and compare that to what was in say, Indomitus for not much more money.
Why are you complaining about the BT box while talking about double boxes?
The BT one was an army box. Still had $240 worth of stuff in it--and that's not pricing the supplement or datacards weird for being versions "exclusive to the set".
Compare it to the Beastsnagga or Lumineth sets and you'll find it wasn't that wild. The SoB one skews it but since it was all ETB stuff it's hard to call that a reasonable comparison.
Togusa wrote: Is anyone else tired of these box releases?
Here have two new characters (I have Idoneth, so I really want the new fella) and then a bunch of stuff you already have and don't need. Like, just release the flippin model. Please.
Doubly so given how many issues they are having just stocking the current catalogue.
Matrindur wrote: Also it wouldn't be a surprise for the box to cost more than others before as there are quite a lot of models in it.
Fury of the Deep has 230€ of models not counting the two new characters compared to the latest Vs-Boxset Shadow Throne which had 163€ of models not counting the two new characters. That one was light on models but even compared to the one before Piety and Pain had 183.5€ of models not counting the new characters.
So either they are giving us a bigger discount or it will have a bigger price tag
Hopefully it's the bigger discount thing. New not-combat patrol box for AoS is cheaper than any of the 40K ones (though still bad compared to SC).
I just find it funny either side here has more models than last three 40K vs boxes had in total. This here should be bare minimum for vs box, no 6 models per side gak. Plus a solid discount like GW used to do, none of this 'just 25% off already hugely overpriced models' BS...
Fyreslayers continue to be just a weird faction that I'm surprised got greenlit, never mind the fact that they're still around and getting releases!
Pure speculation but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the old CEO’s pet idea and he insisted they be added but basically no-one else in the studio is enthusiastic enough to give them a full-up reworking into something more interesting.
Fyreslayers continue to be just a weird faction that I'm surprised got greenlit, never mind the fact that they're still around and getting releases!
Pure speculation but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the old CEO’s pet idea and he insisted they be added but basically no-one else in the studio is enthusiastic enough to give them a full-up reworking into something more interesting.
According to the old leaks about AoS every army was supposed to be a limited time FOMO release. Would help explain why the early AoS armies were so minimal but because they changed tact you still end up with very small armies comprising of a few units and one centrepiece while the newer ones tend to be much more rounded and near-complete.
Kanluwen wrote: Why are you complaining about the BT box while talking about double boxes?
The BT one was an army box. Still had $240 worth of stuff in it--and that's not pricing the supplement or datacards weird for being versions "exclusive to the set".
Compare it to the Beastsnagga or Lumineth sets and you'll find it wasn't that wild. The SoB one skews it but since it was all ETB stuff it's hard to call that a reasonable comparison.
I believe the last duel box for AoS was Shadow & Pain which had 38 models – including 10 cav and a cav centerpiece – for $170. And you can still find find it at a discount. I'd be shocked if they listed this for over $170 which would represent a savings of ~$190. Enticing, even if you're not in love with either load out!
Fyreslayers continue to be just a weird faction that I'm surprised got greenlit, never mind the fact that they're still around and getting releases!
Pure speculation but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the old CEO’s pet idea and he insisted they be added but basically no-one else in the studio is enthusiastic enough to give them a full-up reworking into something more interesting.
According to the old leaks about AoS every army was supposed to be a limited time FOMO release. Would help explain why the early AoS armies were so minimal but because they changed tact you still end up with very small armies comprising of a few units and one centrepiece while the newer ones tend to be much more rounded and near-complete.
And not forgetting that in AoS originally it wasn't going to be a traditional wargame. Heck GW had by then got to a point where upper management considered rules so optional that they threw out all the AoS launch rules and released joke rules. AoS was purely a collectors game. Small factions in general with smaller ranges of models, with a view that they'd likely cycle. So every so often GW would remove one and add another. The smaller army sizes being about the chunk of models that GW will push out with a general new release. Alongside that a few top sellers would hang around as would the Stormcast - who would copy-cat Marines in having loads of different chambers of units - similar themes but with different paint schemes and such.
Alongside that, for what game they had, they pushed the Grand Alliance system. You weren't supposed to build a Daughters of Khaine army, or a Fyreslayers - you were building an "Order Grand Alliance" army. If you chose to spam the few models the factions had ot a full army, neat, but otherwise if you were playing their (joke) game rules you were going to build a GA army. So GW could add and remove armies because you'd always have 4 GA forces.
All that was thankfully dropped. Stormcast still got some of their chamber aspect because of how they are the poster-child of the game and how much work was likely already done on them that GW couldn't stop it. It's why they kind of have a miniature range that falls over itself with options that are visually and mechanically very similar in a few roles. But otherwise most of the old AoS launch ideas are shelved; GA armies don't even exist any more really.
Personally, I think it’d be cool to have some proper grand alliance allegiance abilities on par with the regular faction ones but actually figuring those out and having them apply to all of the relevant Alliance factions equally would be a balance nightmare.
Mr_Rose wrote: Personally, I think it’d be cool to have some proper grand alliance allegiance abilities on par with the regular faction ones but actually figuring those out and having them apply to all of the relevant Alliance factions equally would be a balance nightmare.
It really wasn't that bad in 1st or 2nd edition, the simple solution is that Grand Alliances had worse allegiance abilities to compensate for the massive roster flexibility. I thought that was a great idea, along with allegiances being based on keywords, and am sad they dropped it. They'll probably rotate back in an edition or two.
Fyreslayers continue to be just a weird faction that I'm surprised got greenlit, never mind the fact that they're still around and getting releases!
I have a pet theory based on small amounts of evidence and a lot of speculation!
The thing that is very odd about Fyreslayers is the relative design age of the kits. The hearthguard kit is, once you get to see it up close, quite clearly an older design than the vulkites. Like, YEARS older. The details are softer and certain design elements (the mohawks are particularly notable) echo how GW did things during early-mid 8th WHFB but not AoS. The heroes are similar in dichotomy, and overall it is really easy to see how some units are newer designs while others could be older ones with extra rune-bling stuck on.
Now, during the End Times the dwarf Slayer King became the incarnate of fire. Combined with the above, I think that Fyreslayers may originally have been planned as an expansion for Dwarfs, finally replacing the metal units with plastic kits and adding some trademarkable elements. At some point the plan changed, new kits were added and old ones edited, and they became an AoS army.
But again, this is almost all speculation on my part.
Depending on when the battletomes come, there is still a good chance we could see some other kits come out with this. It's not likely, but Fyreslayers really do need a range expansion.
Mr_Rose wrote: Personally, I think it’d be cool to have some proper grand alliance allegiance abilities on par with the regular faction ones but actually figuring those out and having them apply to all of the relevant Alliance factions equally would be a balance nightmare.
It really wasn't that bad in 1st or 2nd edition, the simple solution is that Grand Alliances had worse allegiance abilities to compensate for the massive roster flexibility. I thought that was a great idea, along with allegiances being based on keywords, and am sad they dropped it. They'll probably rotate back in an edition or two.
Fyreslayers continue to be just a weird faction that I'm surprised got greenlit, never mind the fact that they're still around and getting releases!
I have a pet theory based on small amounts of evidence and a lot of speculation!
The thing that is very odd about Fyreslayers is the relative design age of the kits. The hearthguard kit is, once you get to see it up close, quite clearly an older design than the vulkites. Like, YEARS older. The details are softer and certain design elements (the mohawks are particularly notable) echo how GW did things during early-mid 8th WHFB but not AoS. The heroes are similar in dichotomy, and overall it is really easy to see how some units are newer designs while others could be older ones with extra rune-bling stuck on.
Now, during the End Times the dwarf Slayer King became the incarnate of fire. Combined with the above, I think that Fyreslayers may originally have been planned as an expansion for Dwarfs, finally replacing the metal units with plastic kits and adding some trademarkable elements. At some point the plan changed, new kits were added and old ones edited, and they became an AoS army.
But again, this is almost all speculation on my part.
There was a Slayer army list in the WHFB Storm of Chaos supplement that could have used a plastic kit or two...
Sasori wrote: Depending on when the battletomes come, there is still a good chance we could see some other kits come out with this. It's not likely, but Fyreslayers really do need a range expansion.
If we see it, it would only be for one faction not too I’d say (Maybe a single character for the other - though depending how fast this box sells it could be these models).
But a few kits for a single faction (Fyreslayers probably) and then later in the month the other book.
Mr_Rose wrote: Personally, I think it’d be cool to have some proper grand alliance allegiance abilities on par with the regular faction ones but actually figuring those out and having them apply to all of the relevant Alliance factions equally would be a balance nightmare.
It really wasn't that bad in 1st or 2nd edition, the simple solution is that Grand Alliances had worse allegiance abilities to compensate for the massive roster flexibility. I thought that was a great idea, along with allegiances being based on keywords, and am sad they dropped it. They'll probably rotate back in an edition or two.
I think if Grand Alliances came back they'd be perfect to include in a "Age of Sigmar - Apoc" style rules release. Ergo have the Grand Alliances, but design it so that they are at the massive war scale which then supports having loads of different whole armies on the table. Build in some loose "yeah they are GA but you don't have to stick to them" so that you don't end up with a whole club who all have Order and one guy with Death opposing them.
Togusa wrote: Is anyone else tired of these box releases?
.
I trust you don't complain about price of models then? If you do then you getting tired of these makes zero sense.
One can simultaneously dislike the price of models and dislike new characters being exclusive to a box set for months before an individual release, and dislike the box taking up a slot in the release cycle complete with all the allocation of resources that entails.
Togusa wrote: Is anyone else tired of these box releases?
Can't say I'm a fan of them unless both sides interest me. Blood of the Phoenix( Essentially a Ynnari set ) was the only one I was prepared to get but it included so much stuff it went for silly money. About £140 or something, which was asking a bit too much when Phoenix Rising dropped at the same time, which was another £25.
The idea of a "preview" set sounds good but I'd much rather they produce two bundles instead, where a player - who doesn't want to split or ebay - can get a bundle for the faction they enjoy. For example, I wouldn't mind the forthcoming Eldar releases( previewed on Christmas Day ) with a Falcon or some other Eldar model they want to peddle. But as it is I just don't want to spend money on Chaos Marines, bargain or not...
In my experience selling on the half you don't want or finding someone to swap it with isn't "too" hard so long as you set it up in advance
If you do swap over the internet I recommend (strongly) that you treat it as two payments.
Person A pays Person B, who then posts their half
Person A receives the half
Person B pays Person A, who then posts their half.
Person B receives the half.
That way both of you get paypal's protections and if anything goes wrong (eg lost parcel in the post, one person vanishes etc...) there's protections already in place and no one is left short. IT also gets around scammers who will claim to post their half and just run off with your half that you sent them, leaving you with nothing.
Overread wrote: In my experience selling on the half you don't want or finding someone to swap it with isn't "too" hard so long as you set it up in advance
If you do swap over the internet I recommend (strongly) that you treat it as two payments.
Person A pays Person B, who then posts their half
Person A receives the half
Person B pays Person A, who then posts their half.
Person B receives the half.
That way both of you get paypal's protections and if anything goes wrong (eg lost parcel in the post, one person vanishes etc...) there's protections already in place and no one is left short. IT also gets around scammers who will claim to post their half and just run off with your half that you sent them, leaving you with nothing.
Its certainly something I will keep in mind for when the time comes. Appreciate it.
It felt too obvious to say "elementals", because fire and water is the classic elemental face-off. And then "Order". Also, funny, dwarves and elves hate each other. It would've been pretty nice to see Sylvaneth, if you consider "grass" as an elemental type.
Remember if this was part of the rumour that said that Skaven and Seraphon are going to have a huge update but not a battlebox?
Wordy wrote: Taken from the WH community page about the Chaos and Eldar battle box…
“ If you’re a fan of Warhammer Age of Sigmar, we will have a major reveal coming on Monday, pitting two allies of Order against one another in a battle of the elements.”
I know it's a very minor thing, but the Fyreslayers and Idoneth should've been the other way round in the preview photo - as it is, both the new heroes are very carefully avoiding looking at each other...
Not interested in the Fish'n'Fire box, but the Ogor might be a nice additional hero in Cursed City, looking what might had happened to his Kosargi mates.
Dryaktylus wrote: Not interested in the Fish'n'Fire box, but the Ogor might be a nice additional hero in Cursed City, looking what might had happened to his Kosargi mates.
I know he's meant to be a pirate, but with only some minor conversion work, he'd be perfect for a witch hunter ogor. Just add a cap and swap out his sword with a big stake or hammer
Dryaktylus wrote: Not interested in the Fish'n'Fire box, but the Ogor might be a nice additional hero in Cursed City, looking what might had happened to his Kosargi mates.
Same. I don't think that box is going to sell well at all.
Dysartes wrote: I know it's a very minor thing, but the Fyreslayers and Idoneth should've been the other way round in the preview photo - as it is, both the new heroes are very carefully avoiding looking at each other...
That seems to happen a lot with these battle boxes. Lelith and the Palatine were fighting back to back...
Will be interesting to see the price. Like I said earlier, I'm not interested so it makes no difference to me, but the last 40k box was 140€. This box seems to have an additional unit on both sides. I wonder if they'll try to make them more appealing by keeping the price and thus offering a higher discount, or if they go with a bigger price tag.
At least compared to the aforementioned 40k box this one's model count looks nice and substantial.
lord_blackfang wrote: The box of hideously overpriced basic infantry. It better have a better discount than usual or there's no point.
What's the resale value of the half you don't want going to be? Fyreslayers have always been AoS' least popular army and not many IDK players will be thinking "boy I wish I had 20 more Namarti."
With new book likely smart to load up. Odds good they get buffed u
The Battlebox coming before the Battletomes is a good sign, that means we're likely to see some additional kits when the release happens. I'm pretty happy to see this. I think the IDK is fine, but Fyreslayers really needed some more kits.
lord_blackfang wrote: The box of hideously overpriced basic infantry. It better have a better discount than usual or there's no point.
What's the resale value of the half you don't want going to be? Fyreslayers have always been AoS' least popular army and not many IDK players will be thinking "boy I wish I had 20 more Namarti."
With new book likely smart to load up. Odds good they get buffed u
The units they're dumping on the market with the new characters prior to the book release? Nah.
Osorios wrote: Sorry if this isn't completely on topic, but did they stop releasing the Warhammer Underworlds warbands as ETB without the cards for a cheaper price?
The Direchasm Starter warbands were released around the time Harrowdeep went up. I don't follow the game, but I think there were changes in the new season that made it more worthwhile to keep printing the rest of the Direchasm season warbands for the time being
Sasori wrote: The Battlebox coming before the Battletomes is a good sign, that means we're likely to see some additional kits when the release happens. I'm pretty happy to see this. I think the IDK is fine, but Fyreslayers really needed some more kits.
Didn’t the other times they’ve done these box then book releases, just have the exclusive characters from in here then get a normal release with the book?
Looking at the online store, they both need new kits, but I'd give "more" to the Fyreslayers - though I'll grant you that the Idoneth should have Endless Spells (or equivalent).
In terms of kits (as opposed to units made from kits), Idoneth seem to have 1 Infantry unit, 1 Cavalry unit, 2 Monster kits (Leviadon & Allopex), 4 Infantry characters and 2 Monster characters, as well as a terrain piece and an Underworld warband (still packaged as an Underworlds item, so not showing on their page in the AOS section for me).
Fyreslayers appear to have a terrain piece, Endless spells, an Underworld warband, 2 Infantry units, 4 Infantry characters (plus Gotrek - is he a Fyreslayer now?) and 1 Monster character. They're effectively 2 Monster kits and a Monster character kit behind, though I acknowledge that such unit might not be the best fit for Slayers - either way, they're either two or three kits behind Idoneth already, depending on how Gotrek counts. And that's ignoring that the Berserker kit appears to only make one unit (though one with weapon options), while both the Infantry and Cavalry units for Idoneth make two units each.
In terms of kits (as opposed to units made from kits), Idoneth seem to have 1 Infantry unit, 1 Cavalry unit, 2 Monster kits (Leviadon & Allopex), 4 Infantry characters and 2 Monster characters, as well as a terrain piece and an Underworld warband (still packaged as an Underworlds item, so not showing on their page in the AOS section for me).
Idoneth Namarti are 2 different kits so its 2 Infantry units but each only builds one unit
Gotrek is basically a generic order hero. He doesn't fit into any single faction, however he can be taken by any army willing to pay the points cost for him.
He's probably in Fyreslayers because he is a slayer and visually its likely an easy place to put him as GW doesn't have a "non faction specific" section of the order faction and if they did it would just be him
MOST armies also have Endless Spells; those which don't tend to be outliers/exceptions to the normal. It's a bit like how armies shouldn't have any finecast nor metal - yes its happening; yes its probably because GW is "design led" and no one on the team has wanted to make them or somesuch - but in theory they should all have them. Same as terrain features.
Eg DoK went through all of 2.0 without a terrain feature nor endless spells and gained the latter only in 3.0. Meanwhile Cities of Sigmar didn't get any of either but then again it was a "rescue" battletome that was basically done as a project by in-house staff on a whim; so chances are GW just didn't have anything ready.
Not sure why some armies like Orruks wound up without any, but sometimes GW moves in strange and odd ways .
Overread wrote: MOST armies also have Endless Spells; those which don't tend to be outliers/exceptions to the normal. It's a bit like how armies shouldn't have any finecast nor metal - yes its happening; yes its probably because GW is "design led" and no one on the team has wanted to make them or somesuch - but in theory they should all have them. Same as terrain features.
Looking at the online store, they both need new kits, but I'd give "more" to the Fyreslayers - though I'll grant you that the Idoneth should have Endless Spells (or equivalent).
In terms of kits (as opposed to units made from kits), Idoneth seem to have 1 Infantry unit, 1 Cavalry unit, 2 Monster kits (Leviadon & Allopex), 4 Infantry characters and 2 Monster characters, as well as a terrain piece and an Underworld warband (still packaged as an Underworlds item, so not showing on their page in the AOS section for me).
Someone else already pointed out, but the Namarti are two separate kits. The parts aren't interchangeable without significant work either being bared flesh.
Allopex lost its "Monster" status with BR Morathi and have never regained it, unless it was in a printed publication like General's Handbook. The Akhelian King/Volturnos on Deepmare also are not actually considered Monsters. Nor are the Aspects.
Fyreslayers appear to have a terrain piece, Endless spells, an Underworld warband, 2 Infantry units, 4 Infantry characters (plus Gotrek - is he a Fyreslayer now?) and 1 Monster character. They're effectively 2 Monster kits and a Monster character kit behind, though I acknowledge that such unit might not be the best fit for Slayers - either way, they're either two or three kits behind Idoneth already, depending on how Gotrek counts. And that's ignoring that the Berserker kit appears to only make one unit (though one with weapon options), while both the Infantry and Cavalry units for Idoneth make two units each.
The Vulkite Berserker kit makes one unit with two different weapon options but the Auric Hearthguard kit also makes the Hearthguard Berzerkers(who have two weapon options themselves).
Also that "Monster character" kit for Fyreslayers? It makes 3 different heroes. If you're making an Auric Runesmiter on foot, you get to also build either a Runeson or Runefather on foot and then one of either of those two on Magmadroth. With zero conversion effort needed, because the parts are in the kit.
And the Endless Spells+terrain piece both came out with their updated battletome. Which was a thing they got.
Looking at the online store, they both need new kits, but I'd give "more" to the Fyreslayers - though I'll grant you that the Idoneth should have Endless Spells (or equivalent).
In terms of kits (as opposed to units made from kits), Idoneth seem to have 1 Infantry unit, 1 Cavalry unit, 2 Monster kits (Leviadon & Allopex), 4 Infantry characters and 2 Monster characters, as well as a terrain piece and an Underworld warband (still packaged as an Underworlds item, so not showing on their page in the AOS section for me).
Someone else already pointed out, but the Namarti are two separate kits. The parts aren't interchangeable without significant work either being bared flesh.
Allopex lost its "Monster" status with BR Morathi and have never regained it, unless it was in a printed publication like General's Handbook. The Akhelian King/Volturnos on Deepmare also are not actually considered Monsters. Nor are the Aspects.
Fyreslayers appear to have a terrain piece, Endless spells, an Underworld warband, 2 Infantry units, 4 Infantry characters (plus Gotrek - is he a Fyreslayer now?) and 1 Monster character. They're effectively 2 Monster kits and a Monster character kit behind, though I acknowledge that such unit might not be the best fit for Slayers - either way, they're either two or three kits behind Idoneth already, depending on how Gotrek counts. And that's ignoring that the Berserker kit appears to only make one unit (though one with weapon options), while both the Infantry and Cavalry units for Idoneth make two units each.
The Vulkite Berserker kit makes one unit with two different weapon options but the Auric Hearthguard kit also makes the Hearthguard Berzerkers(who have two weapon options themselves).
Also that "Monster character" kit for Fyreslayers? It makes 3 different heroes. If you're making an Auric Runesmiter on foot, you get to also build either a Runeson or Runefather on foot and then one of either of those two on Magmadroth. With zero conversion effort needed, because the parts are in the kit.
And the Endless Spells+terrain piece both came out with their updated battletome. Which was a thing they got.
I'm amused that you think any of what you put there was actually working against my overall point, Kan - if anything, you've strengthened it. Also, the use of "Monster" was more of a colloquial one that a rules-based one - couldn't think of a better term for "two Elves and a trident launcher jump a shark" in the case of the Allopex, let alone "Elf on a Seahorse" or "Aspect of Big Cloak as a Centrepiece".
To reiterate - my point was that while both factions need more kits, Fyreslayers are more short-changed in that regard than the Elves. Which is hardly a shock, given Elf Privilege when it comes to gaming.
I'll relist the breakdowns, to make this need a bit clearer. I'll leave Gotrek out entirely, as apparently both factions can taken him.
Fyreslayers 4 infantry clampack characters
"Endless Spells" (not spells, as Dwarfs, but you know what I mean)
Terrain piece
Underworlds warband (now available without Underworlds cards)
Infantry Kit A - Vulkite Berserkers - makes one unit, with weapon options
Infantry Kit B - Hearthguard Berserkers - also makes Auric Hearthguard
Monster Kit A - Magmadroth - Comes with options to make three different CHARACTER on Magmadroth units, and parts can make build two characters on foot as well (going by comments in this thread, and if the right mounted option is used?)
Idoneth 4 infantry clampack characters
Terrain piece
Underworlds warband (still available with Underworlds cards)
Infantry Kit A - Namarti Thralls - makes one unit, with some weapon options, though I don't know if that's just cosmetic
Infantry Kit B - Namarti Reavers - makes one unit, with some (cosmetic?) weapon options
Cavalry Kit A - Akhelian Ishlaen Guard - kit can alternatively build Morrsarr Guard (two units, one box)
Monster Kit A - Akhelian Allopex
Monster Kit B - Akhelian Leviadon
Monster Kit C - Eidolon - Makes two different Aspects
Monster Kit D - Akhelian King - Also includes a special character build
Both factions pick up one new clampack infantry character from the battle box, so that's a score draw.
This would seem to - thanks to the Magmadroth kit - leave the Fyreslayers up a couple of infantry character options, but they're behind everywhere else, especially in terms of number of different kits available.
You might play Idoneth, I don't know - but in terms of "need", it should be clear from the above who is in greater "need" of additional kits.
They do both need more kits before several other factions should get additional release slots, though.
I'm amused that you think any of what you put there was actually working against my overall point, Kan - if anything, you've strengthened it. Also, the use of "Monster" was more of a colloquial one that a rules-based one - couldn't think of a better term for "two Elves and a trident launcher jump a shark" in the case of the Allopex, let alone "Elf on a Seahorse" or "Aspect of Big Cloak as a Centrepiece".
To reiterate - my point was that while both factions need more kits, Fyreslayers are more short-changed in that regard than the Elves. Which is hardly a shock, given Elf Privilege when it comes to gaming.
Fyreslayers have had two books in the time Idoneth had one. Their first book, granted, was basically the book with almost the entire range released (exception being the scenery piece, Invocations, and the Doomseeker...who came out via Silver Tower), with the second book just bringing them "up to speed".
I'll relist the breakdowns, to make this need a bit clearer. I'll leave Gotrek out entirely, as apparently both factions can taken him.
Fyreslayers 4 infantry clampack characters
Launched with 3. Doomseeker was added after Silver Tower was discontinued.
"Endless Spells" (not spells, as Dwarfs, but you know what I mean) Terrain piece
Came out with the book's second iteration, which also saw the baseline Fyreslayer models go up to 2W a pop.
Which is something that I really feel gets glossed over a lot.
Underworlds warband (now available without Underworlds cards)
Has been available since the end of Shadespire's season, where it was part of a bulk drop of every warband that came out then. They were a "season one" group. The webstore lists it as a release for 2018.
Infantry Kit A - Vulkite Berserkers - makes one unit, with weapon options
Makes one unit, with 3 different weapon options. Axe+shield, War-Pick+Shield, Twin Axes. The weapon options there are just as dramatically different in terms of effect as the Eels are, with the shields effectively making a whole different feel to the unit.
Infantry Kit B - Hearthguard Berserkers - also makes Auric Hearthguard
And Hearthguard Berzerkers have a weapon option.
Monster Kit A - Magmadroth - Comes with options to make three different CHARACTER on Magmadroth units, and parts can make build two characters on foot as well (going by comments in this thread, and if the right mounted option is used?)
Cool, so real-quick: It has options to make three different non-named character on Magmadroth units. One of them(Runeson) has two different weapon options (Ancestral Axe and Wyrmslayer Javelins) while the other two (Runefather and Runesmiter) have no weapon options. The Runeson and Runefather both share the same set of riding/standing legs but have different torsos. The Runesmiter is a body with legs and arms attached, meaning he can be built on foot for either version of the riding guys--hence 3 characters if you build either a Runeson or a Runefather riding the Magmadroth while only two if building a Runesmiter riding the Magmadroth.
It's also worth mentioning that for some time, GW just wasn't trying to even hide the Start-Collecting set being the best deal for anyone playing Fyreslayers. It's a $95 set that gets you a Magmadroth and a box of Vulkite Berzerkers. The Magmadroth, when it first released, was $110.
Idoneth 4 infantry clampack characters
3. Lotann, the named guy with the octopus, is a boxed set. Also named character that really is built to be taken with Namarti not Idoneth in general.
Each of the infantry clamshells is...situational, for lack of a better term. The Tidecaster is the only Enclave tied Wizard in the book and her "big deal" ability for being your general is letting you swap the Tides of Death to start at the end and work to the beginning. If doing so, Reavers became Battleline because she has the Isharann keyword and Eels couldn't(theirs was tied to having an Akhelian General). Soulscryer let you 'deepstrike' with 2 additional units, and also turned Reavers into Battleline cause Isharann keyword. Soulrender's abilities were tied to Namarti. It let you return slain Namarti(D3) to the unit, adding 1 to the roll for each enemy model slain by the Soulrender that turn. Also...it was Isharann. And had a hangman's knot that was for fighting enemy non-monster heroes.
Terrain piece Underworlds warband (still available with Underworlds cards)
Underworlds warband just came out last year. June 5, 2021 was the preorder date.
Infantry Kit A - Namarti Thralls - makes one unit, with some weapon options, though I don't know if that's just cosmetic Infantry Kit B - Namarti Reavers - makes one unit, with some (cosmetic?) weapon options
All cosmetic.
Cavalry Kit A - Akhelian Ishlaen Guard - kit can alternatively build Morrsarr Guard (two units, one box)
So, see the comment I made earlier about the Vulkites? That's what happened here. The Morrsarr Guard have two special rules tied to their spears. The Ishlaen Guard have one rule that is tied to their shields instead.
Monster Kit A - Akhelian Allopex
Has two weapon options, a harpoon and a net.
Monster Kit B - Akhelian Leviadon Monster Kit C - Eidolon - Makes two different Aspects
Also it's a hero. That didn't get Enclave benefits. But did have a murder aura on the Aspect of the Storm and was a Wizard on Aspect of the Sea(which was helpful, since it let you sidestep the locked wizard spells for Enclaves).
Monster Kit D - Akhelian King - Also includes a special character build
Yeah...and basically you never saw anything but the special character, since he was the Akhelian King with an additional two units affected by his command ability.
Plus see above regarding Eels.
Both factions pick up one new clampack infantry character from the battle box, so that's a score draw.
Context does matter though. Fyreslayers are a faction where their Start Collecting kit was arguably a phenomenal buy-in spot for the faction, being 2-3 heroes, a monster mount for one of those heroes, and a battleline unit that was widely decried as "too expensive" to buy otherwise. Their new hero from the upcoming battlebox? Also seems to, again, be a flexible hero...while the Idoneth one is seeming to just be a Soulrender with a keyword swap. I hope to be proven wrong though, as I really like that model!
This would seem to - thanks to the Magmadroth kit - leave the Fyreslayers up a couple of infantry character options, but they're behind everywhere else, especially in terms of number of different kits available.
When their kits actually build different weapon options, is that really a big deal though? I don't think so.
You might play Idoneth, I don't know - but in terms of "need", it should be clear from the above who is in greater "need" of additional kits.
I do play Idoneth. I also know that the faction basically is keyword soup...Fyreslayers aren't.
Dysartes wrote: I know it's a very minor thing, but the Fyreslayers and Idoneth should've been the other way round in the preview photo - as it is, both the new heroes are very carefully avoiding looking at each other...
Neither can stand looking at the others hair style...or lack thereof.
They literally have more Heroes holding a staff than they do actual units. At least Ironjawz had a bit of visual diversity with the boars and the Brutes and the Heroes all looked different to one another.
I agree IDK should get Endless Spells and I'd not be opposed to them getting more models but no army in the entire game needs new kits than Fyreslayers.
I think that's one thing - Fyreslyers are very much one trope repeated for most of their army. Visually they lack diversity whilst Idoneth have a goodly amount for their small roster.
I would say Fyreslayers and Flesheaters are the worst off at present with AoS. Flesheaters its basically "buy the battlebox, and then just buy more of them" to the point GW had to give them a 9 dragon/terrorgast capable army subfaction because otherwise they'd have nothing to do with their over-abundance of them.
It's a shame that the fast second wave that Lumineth got wasn't something that GW repeated for many of the other smaller newer forces for AoS. Lumineth at launch were "lol what cow elves with hammers?" then their second wave helped solidify them and a big part of that was giving people choices and diversity and varied builds and new focal models. Now no one really jokes about cows and hammers because there's "roo-cavalry" and "fox archers" and more.
Ossiarchs are much the same, they are like Idoneth in a having a decent first wave, but then no big second wave to help solidify the fanbase.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Kan is ridiculously biased when it comes to the armies he plays.
Yes, because I actually have a knowledge of the army. Crazy how that works innit?
Just like I know that while Cities of Sigmar don't have Endless Spells...they got a bonus to cast the Malign Sorcery spells. Just like I know that while Overlords didn't get ES, they get a Relic for one...and that their skyships got a scenery related rule called "Garrison".
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Overread wrote: I think that's one thing - Fyreslyers are very much one trope repeated for most of their army. Visually they lack diversity whilst Idoneth have a goodly amount for their small roster.
Idoneth also have a vast misunderstanding of what they actually feature.
There's the eels, the shark "warmachine", the turtle "bigger warmachine", and the two different units of light "skirmishers". Then there's the ridiculously niche hero units. Of which there's the King, the Mage, the Priest, the Accountant, the "Resurrects Namarti" guy, and then the Big Ol' Wavecape... There's more heroes than units. Even counting straight-up profiles. 2 Eels, 1 Shark(with weapon options on the warscroll), Turtle, Reavers, and Thralls total out to 6. King, Volturnos, Priest, Mage, Accountant, Namarti Guy, Wizard w/ Wavecape, Fighty Wavecape comes out to 8.
I would say Fyreslayers and Flesheaters are the worst off at present with AoS. Flesheaters its basically "buy the battlebox, and then just buy more of them" to the point GW had to give them a 9 dragon/terrorgast capable army subfaction because otherwise they'd have nothing to do with their over-abundance of them.
Flesh-Eaters, IMO, are in a better spot than Fyreslayers and Idoneth both. They showed what can be done with the ability to combine kit parts.
Both Fyreslayers and Idoneth could have been helped significantly with the simple addition of an extraneous profile for what their armies have as "standard bearers" in the units.
It's a shame that the fast second wave that Lumineth got wasn't something that GW repeated for many of the other smaller newer forces for AoS. Lumineth at launch were "lol what cow elves with hammers?" then their second wave helped solidify them and a big part of that was giving people choices and diversity and varied builds and new focal models. Now no one really jokes about cows and hammers because there's "roo-cavalry" and "fox archers" and more.
Lumineth "at launch" wasn't meant to be everything by all reliable accounts.
They were also better received at the second wave because people saw how effective the army was.
Ossiarchs are much the same, they are like Idoneth in a having a decent first wave, but then no big second wave to help solidify the fanbase.
Idoneth didn't need a "big second wave", because most people were too busy not shutting up about how OP eels were.
ImAGeek wrote: I mean both are limited rosters who could do with more variety. I’m not sure what the point of this argument is.
My army is worse off than your army
And
If anyone from GW design is reading this they must know who is worse off so they focus on them first ;0
But still even looking at Idoneth - they've got eels, sharks and a giant turtle. Fyreslayers have a Magmadroth. They didn't even get the awesome Magmadragon from Forgeworld (before GW/FW gutted the AoS range :( )
Yeah, the Fyreslayers could really do with a cavalry unit of some sort. A bunch of fire-adjacent lizard types like smaller magmadroths. Or even literal baby magmadroths when they’re only cart horse sized rather than elephant sized.
Yeah let's set aside the 'who has it worse' argument.
Both armies are small and it's kind of a slap in the face that all they're likely going to get is this one box, a new leader, and their battletome to get them into 3rd edition, and then nothing until 4th edition.
Meanwhile, Stormcast and Lumineth will likely get a whole extra release over the next year or two.
We'll see how it all goes down, but I think Fyreslayers and Deepkin players are just going to have to sit back down and relax for another 3+ years.
drbored wrote: Yeah let's set aside the 'who has it worse' argument.
Both armies are small and it's kind of a slap in the face that all they're likely going to get is this one box, a new leader, and their battletome to get them into 3rd edition, and then nothing until 4th edition.
Meanwhile, Stormcast and Lumineth will likely get a whole extra release over the next year or two.
We'll see how it all goes down, but I think Fyreslayers and Deepkin players are just going to have to sit back down and relax for another 3+ years.
I actually think it's the opposite since they are releasing this boxset early. I think that means we may actually see some model releases to go with it. If there was nothing else except the battle tomes, I think they would have just released it alongside it like they usually do.
Sasori wrote: I think that means we may actually see some model releases to go with it.
I’m not holding out hope for any more FS stuff, personally. I’d definitely welcome more options, but I get the feeling that its going to be a year or thereabouts of “1 model and a new battletome” for AoS, for the most part.
And if they don’t give FS new models, I hope at least for a warscroll rewrite/refinement. When it comes down to it, I’ve always felt that Vulkite Beserkers were decent Battleline that alot of armies would love to have. The problem is, why take them when Hearthguard Bezerkers do the same job but much better with more utility? Also, its not likely but I’d like them to reduce the use of “Beserker” in the battletome by at least 50%.
I'm amused that you think any of what you put there was actually working against my overall point, Kan - if anything, you've strengthened it. Also, the use of "Monster" was more of a colloquial one that a rules-based one - couldn't think of a better term for "two Elves and a trident launcher jump a shark" in the case of the Allopex, let alone "Elf on a Seahorse" or "Aspect of Big Cloak as a Centrepiece".
To reiterate - my point was that while both factions need more kits, Fyreslayers are more short-changed in that regard than the Elves. Which is hardly a shock, given Elf Privilege when it comes to gaming.
I'll relist the breakdowns, to make this need a bit clearer. I'll leave Gotrek out entirely, as apparently both factions can taken him.
Fyreslayers 4 infantry clampack characters
"Endless Spells" (not spells, as Dwarfs, but you know what I mean)
Terrain piece
Underworlds warband (now available without Underworlds cards)
Infantry Kit A - Vulkite Berserkers - makes one unit, with weapon options
Infantry Kit B - Hearthguard Berserkers - also makes Auric Hearthguard
Monster Kit A - Magmadroth - Comes with options to make three different CHARACTER on Magmadroth units, and parts can make build two characters on foot as well (going by comments in this thread, and if the right mounted option is used?)
Idoneth 4 infantry clampack characters
Terrain piece
Underworlds warband (still available with Underworlds cards)
Infantry Kit A - Namarti Thralls - makes one unit, with some weapon options, though I don't know if that's just cosmetic
Infantry Kit B - Namarti Reavers - makes one unit, with some (cosmetic?) weapon options
Cavalry Kit A - Akhelian Ishlaen Guard - kit can alternatively build Morrsarr Guard (two units, one box)
Monster Kit A - Akhelian Allopex
Monster Kit B - Akhelian Leviadon
Monster Kit C - Eidolon - Makes two different Aspects
Monster Kit D - Akhelian King - Also includes a special character build
Both factions pick up one new clampack infantry character from the battle box, so that's a score draw.
This would seem to - thanks to the Magmadroth kit - leave the Fyreslayers up a couple of infantry character options, but they're behind everywhere else, especially in terms of number of different kits available.
You might play Idoneth, I don't know - but in terms of "need", it should be clear from the above who is in greater "need" of additional kits.
They do both need more kits before several other factions should get additional release slots, though.
Yeah it's very clear that Deepkin has a more extensive range at this point, can't actually be refuted and it would be very foolish or at least incredibly disingenuous to try.
Sasori wrote: I think that means we may actually see some model releases to go with it.
I’m not holding out hope for any more FS stuff, personally. I’d definitely welcome more options, but I get the feeling that its going to be a year or thereabouts of “1 model and a new battletome” for AoS, for the most part.
And if they don’t give FS new models, I hope at least for a warscroll rewrite/refinement. When it comes down to it, I’ve always felt that Vulkite Beserkers were decent Battleline that alot of armies would love to have. The problem is, why take them when Hearthguard Bezerkers do the same job but much better with more utility? Also, its not likely but I’d like them to reduce the use of “Beserker” in the battletome by at least 50%.
Changes quaranteed. One thing i'm pretty sure is going is no more always strike first ca.
I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.
They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.
Seeing how much of those is stuff that didn't sell...odds are reverse.
If these arent' good then what's good is what already was selling and thus new book release won't generate much of sales unless they get lots of try-hard's jumping to them because already best stuff is now OP. That's hard to do so odds are rather they make what was previously not good to be good next. The whole point of new book is to make people buy models. GW would fail utterly if what's good is what was previously good and it's not so super-OP all the try-hard's jump to them.
you assume that GW understand their own game good enough to avoid such mistakes of pushing previous good stuff while making already bad stuff worse (and by other examples out there we know they do not)
drbored wrote: I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.
They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.
You know it literally includes the rules for the contents of the box, right?
drbored wrote: I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.
They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.
Eh, but in the past when we have seen them release the Boxset ahead of time, the actually tomes followed with more models. A good example was Shadow and Pain, which had a large model line accompany the Hedonite box.
In all other cases that I can think of, if there were no addtional models the boxset just released with the tomes/dexes. The most recent example being Shadowthrone, which we know was supposed to come together.
drbored wrote: I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.
They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.
Eh, but in the past when we have seen them release the Boxset ahead of time, the actually tomes followed with more models. A good example was Shadow and Pain, which had a large model line accompany the Hedonite box.
In all other cases that I can think of, if there were no addtional models the boxset just released with the tomes/dexes. The most recent example being Shadowthrone, which we know was supposed to come together.
In fact, many of the AoS VS boxes saw nothing more for the army. Dorfs/Tzeentch, Skaven/Ghouls... they were just vehicles for the new character models.
Shadow & Pain was an exception (but only for Slaanesh)- the stars just happened to align.
In fact, many of the AoS VS boxes saw nothing more for the army. Dorfs/Tzeentch, Skaven/Ghouls... they were just vehicles for the new character models.
Shadow & Pain was an exception (but only for Slaanesh)- the stars just happened to align.
Shadow & Pain, Blight War, Looncurse, and Feast of Bones all followed that pattern.
You're right that it is not always both sides that see a big chunk of releases though.
drbored wrote: I do hope both battletomes get some good rules, but I'm not holding out hope for any new models other than the two leaders we see in their box set.
They release the box set before the Codex because they want people to buy the box set irrespective of how good the models are supposed to be, then they release the codex, revealing that the contents of the box are 'meh' at best for what they do.
You know it literally includes the rules for the contents of the box, right?
Assuming rules stay same in battletome which isn't quaranteed. Though which way changes is also uncertain.
I'm willing to, so far, eat a little crow on the Thrallmaster. That's a really cool buff he's got going on.
The thrallmaster is solid but the dorf is just… wut? Never mind the added bookkeeping for no reason, he gets to pick one unit to be buffed instead of every unit in range, he has to wait for another five guys to die before it can be done again, and if more than five guys die at once the extra charge from their noble sacrifice is lost.
) but interesting. Point change targets were predictable. New warscroll already more curious. Move&charge in hero phase getting nerfed?
