Overread wrote: I have found that any needle point applicators for plastic glue get very easily blocked when the glue part cures in the needle.
Though I've also found the best way to clear it is to take the needle out and put it under a flame - eg a match or lighter. Just be sure to be holding the needle with tweezers or such (cause it will get hot) and to run the flame over the whole length and it will burn it out
Strip a twist tie. The wire inside is perfectly sized to fit inside the tube and prevents it from drying in the tube.
MaxT wrote: You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models
Freaks, unite!
Besides, I've had to disassemble some old minis for parts on occasion. It's way easier when you use superglue instead of plastic cement.
And from my experience using plastic cement on aircraft and ship models, superglue sets WAY faster, allowing for much faster assembly. Much less chance of the glue dissolving and destroying detail as well.
Possibly. I'm starting to think that the big "release" is going to be announcing PDFs from Forgeworld's website along with MTO armies ALSO only available from their website.
RustyNumber wrote: Is it cosplay stuff or just normal streetwear with some WFB/AoS flourishes?
it is LARP stuff
the company which got the license is a entry level larp and medieval reenactment supplier, or how the guys from the local group said "seeing more mediocre imperials coming"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nathan2004 wrote: You'll think the timeframe for when the cosplay stuff goes live will coincide with the release of TOW?
no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing
kodos wrote: no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing
They do care, but they have their own release calendar. If something is not ready to go, it's just not ready to go.
With the Warhammer Fest previews being as they are, it's pretty much clear it will still take some time before it's out.
kodos wrote: no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing
They do care, but they have their own release calendar. If something is not ready to go, it's just not ready to go.
With the Warhammer Fest previews being as they are, it's pretty much clear it will still take some time before it's out.
Yeah. They have -nothing- atm. Look for a 2025 release reastically. Maybe 2026.
kodos wrote: no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing
They do care, but they have their own release calendar. If something is not ready to go, it's just not ready to go.
With the Warhammer Fest previews being as they are, it's pretty much clear it will still take some time before it's out.
Yeah. They have -nothing- atm. Look for a 2025 release reastically. Maybe 2026.
We don't know for sure, but I'm thinking there's going to be something tangible by the end of this year. How much? I'm not confident.
We don't know for sure, but I'm thinking there's going to be something tangible by the end of this year. How much? I'm not confident.
I'd love to, but even if they do, it will be limited to me. It's definitely not like Horus Heresy where, let's be honest, the main action is about marines fighting each other and thus can work with limited releases of new plastic boxes of marines since the core of the armies use the same equipment.
With the Old World, all the armies are completely different. Sure, sub factions inside the same army do use a common ground, but the number of releases needed to "complete" an army even at its core is, to me, on a whole different scale than Horus Heresy.
They'll clearly start with Bretonnians vs Tomb Kings, that's already 2 whole armies to release - even if they use same production for old kits, that's quite a workload for their production calendar. It seems doubtful they'll have room for that this year with the 10th edition of 40k coming and the rest for AoS.
Well when you look at what GW said that the focus will be on the Old World. So faction wise you will have -
Empire
Bretonnia
Tomb Kings (which is pretty far south)
Vampire Counts
Kislev
Tilean City States/Dogs of War
Wood elves
Dwarfs
Greenskins
Chaos
Skaven
So based off of this, there would be 11 factions, with several sub-factions per main faction. For example, empire would have 4 sub-factions, Chaos would have a faction for each God and maybe Beastmen, and so on. I really think that when it comes down to it Forge World is going to play a much larger role in this edition of Warhammer then in the past if the develops in this direction. For example I do not think that GW will release new plastics for halflings or re-release the 4th edition metals, chances are FW will release a unit of resin halflings for this version of the game.
Paymaster Games wrote: Well when you look at what GW said that the focus will be on the Old World. So faction wise you will have -
Empire
Bretonnia
Tomb Kings (which is pretty far south)
Vampire Counts
Kislev
Tilean City States/Dogs of War
Wood elves
Dwarfs
Greenskins
Chaos
Skaven
So based off of this, there would be 11 factions, with several sub-factions per main faction. For example, empire would have 4 sub-factions, Chaos would have a faction for each God and maybe Beastmen, and so on. I really think that when it comes down to it Forge World is going to play a much larger role in this edition of Warhammer then in the past if the develops in this direction. For example I do not think that GW will release new plastics for halflings or re-release the 4th edition metals, chances are FW will release a unit of resin halflings for this version of the game.
So basicly everything exept dark and high elves, and lizardmen. Sonds like an unneccesary exclusion of those factions, especially since they have a great, and more or less compleat range of models.
I would rather think they perhaps release rules for everything but start with a more juicy campaign with perhaps new models for some factions, then ad expansion campaigns over the years. Maybe start with a southern campaign doing bretonnians tomb kings, wood elves and skaven first.
kodos wrote: no, there is a chance that something is coming because of the anniversary but GW does not really care what some 3rd party companies outside their bubble is doing
They do care, but they have their own release calendar. If something is not ready to go, it's just not ready to go.
With the Warhammer Fest previews being as they are, it's pretty much clear it will still take some time before it's out.
Yeah. They have -nothing- atm. Look for a 2025 release reastically. Maybe 2026.
Or better. Learn 9th age and play now.
Oh gods no. The group on their website are THE most elitist, 'our way or the highway' group I've ever had the misfortune to run into. They chased fully half the 9th Age supporters clear off the site when T9A decided to become 'NotHammer' instead of 'NextHammer'.
I stay off the T9A pages out of basic manners. But if you come out here peddling your wares, it's game on.
To this day I still play 8th edition. No, it's not balanced like T9A. But at least the armies feel DIFFERENT from each other.
High Elves were represented on the map released ages ago and it was softly hinted that they'd be about at Fest when someone asked about them with a reference to said map.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I encounter this kind of thing all the time on this site, it's a real shame.
I guess some people need to gak on other geeky stuff to feel better about the geeky gak that they like?
Either way, it's not a good look.
It is a shame. Dakka is already quite negative, there's really no need to be gakky too.
Vulcan wrote:
Oh gods no. The group on their website are THE most elitist, 'our way or the highway' group I've ever had the misfortune to run into. They chased fully half the 9th Age supporters clear off the site when T9A decided to become 'NotHammer' instead of 'NextHammer'.
I stay off the T9A pages out of basic manners. But if you come out here peddling your wares, it's game on.
To this day I still play 8th edition. No, it's not balanced like T9A. But at least the armies feel DIFFERENT from each other.
I wasn't keen from the beginning because they seemed to be about keeping the things that put me off playing WHFB (as opposed to KoW, which is about what I wanted from WHFB).
It seemed like a great thing for people who wanted that kind of game though.
That's a real shame regarding how it's run.
Not sure what they're offering if not "NextHammer", but hopefully it's less vulnerable to becoming redundant when the actual "NextHammer" of TOW comes along
Gert wrote: High Elves were represented on the map released ages ago and it was softly hinted that they'd be about at Fest when someone asked about them with a reference to said map.
Yeah, basically everyone has an excuse to be involved even if the dark elves’ is just “mess with anything the other elves think is good and also capture fresh slaves” and the Lizardmen’s is the good ol’ “because the plaques say so” of yore.
Mr_Rose wrote: Yeah, basically everyone has an excuse to be involved even if the dark elves’ is just “mess with anything the other elves think is good and also capture fresh slaves” and the Lizardmen’s is the good ol’ “because the plaques say so” of yore.
Sort of? Inevitably there will be factions with weaker reasons than others which is fine. For the High and Dark Elves, it's easier than the Lizardmen because the High Elves are that midway point between the Old and New Worlds where events in both can affect them, and as you said, the Dark Elves like to raid. For the Old World continent factions, it's all easier. The Empire and Bretonnia own big chunks of it, the Tomb Kings used to own all of it, the Wood Elves are all over the place, Orcs are Orcs, Dwarves hate Orcs and sometimes help various factions for grudges or debts, Chaos is Chaos and Skaven definitely don't exist.
The Lizardmen are the black sheep where they either need a really good reason to be in the northern parts of the continent or have the weaksauce "Cos the Great Plan". The southern parts fighting various Tomb Kings, Orcs, and non-existent Ratmen are easier to deal with because at least there are environments where the species makes sense to be i.e. jungles and desert, which in turn makes it easier to say "Oh yeah an old Lizardmen temple is there".
If GW included Araby as a faction it would be a lot easier to to explain Lizardmen in this setting. Another way that may make sense is that Marco Colombo returned from Lustria just before the Three Emperors Period and he could have brought back a artifact that would allow the Lizardmen to come to the Old World.
Which is also why a Southlands Lizardmen focus makes the most sense. A move away from Lustria gives a different flavour and a chance to expand on the lore.
One would think that someone with a geeky hobby like wargaming would know better than to be gakky about something someone enjoys.
I encounter this kind of thing all the time on this site, it's a real shame.
I guess some people need to gak on other geeky stuff to feel better about the geeky gak that they like?
Either way, it's not a good look.
We've been inundated with "Play our thing, plebes!" for quite some time. Since the announcement of T9A or EEFL we were constantly remarked upon to just play AOS. When other retrogaming movement groups such as Oldhammer and Classichammer gained traction we were told to just play 8th/T9A/AOS. Hell, just last freaking month when hosting the Classichammer 6th Ed. open gaming day I was told to my face by an AOS player to just play AOS. It's infuriating to have people shove their preferences in your face as a "right way to play" sort of thing, or to infer that you're participating in the hobby "wrong" by liking what you like.
If me responding with disdain at another post, ESPECIALLY one shilling a poorly constructed game, is considered "not a good look"? Then consider me officially not giving any sort of feth about your opinions regarding my emotional output.
T9A took the good faith of the 8th Ed. community and used it in a bait and switch to shill their inferior home-brew rules instead of their homogenized "fixed" version of 8th's rules. Someone who detests 8th can even see that.
As far as Lizardmen, High Elves, and Dark Elves having a reason to be there? We have proof that Vikings fought Eskimos with far less advanced travelling techniques than any of those WH races had. Why is this even a legitimate talking point?
Are there any more big convention type substances coming up? I'm hoping for some clarification on how they'll handle covering all the armies. If we're going to get a Ravening Hordes substance or will it be like the 8th Ed. 40K Indexes.
there are always people that tell you that only "official" games should be played
AoS is the current official Fantasy version, you have to play it no matter what and some people also talk like this with other games and the T9A community to some point is known to mock any other game for being inferior, or how only those who like to cheat play 6th and so on.
Following the development of T9A it will be interesting how it goes on with TOW released
For the "what factions are there" we have different information around.
First is, everything in 8th will have rules for TOW and be playabel, than the game will see Army Books with the focus on the great war against chaos, hence those factions first
They are not sure if all factions will get army book, and Lizardmen were named to be the ones that don't get old models back as the AoS ones can be used
Bretonnia and Khemri were chosen for the release because they are iconic and not there in AoS, this must not be related the 2nd point and does not mean they are getting army books with the first wave, just that they will see new models with the first wave
Could be that we see Rulebook+Index release with made to order and new stuff only for 2 armies, while the later release will be campaign+army books with a different focus
all the information we go pretty much sounds like they don't know yet and that there is not much planned and/or it might depend on AoS releases. As they might need to wait for future AoS releases to check which armies get old models back and which ones are left out (hence all Elves out)
PS: a very different idea if GW wants to make proper rules
taking 6th as a base and the change to 25mm, having 4x4 as minimum size would still give the same width as the old 5 wide, while 6 files as seen in the preview could already be the horde formation (16 models being the defensive minimum, 12 or 18 the offensive minimum) which would help to reduce table space and number of models needed but still be compatible with old bases to a point (with the focus on unit width rather than single models fighting)
About rules in TOW, we still have nothing so far TBH. They just gave hints but they were so vague that it could mean anything. We just know bases are bigger, and I don't think it's related to a change in rules from the V8 but purely because it's "easier to put miniatures together". And I think it's really just that - which is a perfectly understandable stance, by the way, even if it's annoying for those having armies from V8 and before.
About lizardmen, dark elves and high elves...it's just a question of releasing the armies. GW will clearly not release all the concerned miniatures at once, they will focus on one or two armies at a time. Given it's FW Specialist Games that'll be in charge of TOW...and given the slow pace of releases for the other games they take care of, even Horus Heresy...I sadly believe that it will be slow as hell as well for TOW. We still don't know what armies will exactly be having rules at the time of release (see HH, not everything was available at the start) and I'm not sure it's a guarantee they'll offer rules for everything not directly related to the Old World at first (lizardmen are in Lustria, dark elves in Naggaroth and high elves in Ulthuan).
About T9A, it's better not to talk about it here. I'll just say that the ones behind the rules are old hardcore Warhammer Battle tournament players and they publicly said they could do a better job than GW about Battle's handling. So it's normal they have a very elitist approach and high esteem of their own game.
Not sure what they're offering if not "NextHammer", but hopefully it's less vulnerable to becoming redundant when the actual "NextHammer" of TOW comes along
They changed how many of the armies feel and play. Bretonnia became Equitaine... but the only good army builds were very infantry heavy. Skaven technology lost it's wacky swinginess. Stuff along those lines. All in a quest for perfect balance, which has left all the armies feeling very 'samey'. I'll grant them, the game is indeed more balanced. But that balance came at the cost of flavor.
I find the improved balance does not bring enough to the table to counteract the loss of flavor of the armies.
About T9A, it's better not to talk about it here. I'll just say that the ones behind the rules are old hardcore Warhammer Battle tournament players and they publicly said they could do a better job than GW about Battle's handling. So it's normal they have a very elitist approach and high esteem of their own game.
They still using my solution to balancing DE Warlocks? Make spellcasting depend on the presence of a champion, and making the champion pay for caster levels?
They still using my solution to balancing DE Warlocks? Make spellcasting depend on the presence of a champion, and making the champion pay for caster levels?
I don't know, I stopped following their rules a long time ago when it was obvious they only care about the tournament aspect of the game. That's why the armies lost flavour...they completely ignored the other aspects of why people loved playing Battle for so long. It's a common mistake to focus on perfect balance above all in a game, and why these games have so many difficulties to draw new blood in their communities.
But it's best not to go further about it here. It's the Old World we're talking about.
nathan2004 wrote: Wait aren't Lizardmen already confirmed to be in the Old World...weren't they on one of the maps? What am I missing?
Nope, there are no Lizardmen symbols or shields on any of the Old World Maps. I had to download and enlarge the Tomb King map to make sure.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am sure that a Ravaging Hoards incoming, but i do think that it will be released online like the 40K 10 Edition get you by lists.
No, posters need to practice some fething restraint.
I'm wondering what size the launch boxes will be. I don't think they can get away with the "16 models per box" thing they got going on right now, not for a mass fantasy battle system.
kodos wrote: If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.
I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?
kodos wrote: If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.
I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?
They already said that there won't be a 'Launch box' or 'Starter box', then backpedaled a bit and said that there will be some sort of 'start collecting' boxes or army boxes. It's not unreasonable that these won't be on the shelves at all, instead being effectively just bundle deals, and they could do them in any mix of materials they like.
kodos wrote: If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.
I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?
They already said that there won't be a 'Launch box' or 'Starter box', then backpedaled a bit and said that there will be some sort of 'start collecting' boxes or army boxes. It's not unreasonable that these won't be on the shelves at all, instead being effectively just bundle deals, and they could do them in any mix of materials they like.
That's not quite what they said, either. They said there won't be a "starter box" because they've got their own definition of what that means - something with a board, "get started" book etc. It won't be getting a "starter" set like Horus Heresy didn't, but that still got the "Age of Darkness" launch box.
kodos wrote: If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.
I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?
They already said that there won't be a 'Launch box' or 'Starter box', then backpedaled a bit and said that there will be some sort of 'start collecting' boxes or army boxes. It's not unreasonable that these won't be on the shelves at all, instead being effectively just bundle deals, and they could do them in any mix of materials they like.
Sure, they could do, but knowing GW anything included in these bundles will be plastic as they have bigger profit margins.
kodos wrote: If we got one on release, which I doubt, it will likely be what we have seen, 2 infantry units, 1-2 cavalry units per side and the resin heroes.
I can't see there being anything resin inside the box, it will be all plastic, surely?
They already said that there won't be a 'Launch box' or 'Starter box', then backpedaled a bit and said that there will be some sort of 'start collecting' boxes or army boxes. It's not unreasonable that these won't be on the shelves at all, instead being effectively just bundle deals, and they could do them in any mix of materials they like.
That's not quite what they said, either. They said there won't be a "starter box" because they've got their own definition of what that means - something with a board, "get started" book etc. It won't be getting a "starter" set like Horus Heresy didn't, but that still got the "Age of Darkness" launch box.
Thanks for the correction (i mean it, it is not exactly easy to keep your head straight with their muddled and at times contradictory communication) - it seems a bit like they themselves are not entirely sure what form the release will take, or (and that possibility should not be discarded lightly) the Q&A presenters have not been provided that information at that level of detail and were mistaken themselves, and later needed to correct what they said.
I am sure that a Ravaging Hoards incoming, but i do think that it will be released online like the 40K 10 Edition get you by lists.
That's what I thought before the previews on Warhammer Fest. Now I wonder if it will not be restrained to a specific set of factions tied to the Old World in a first phase, then they'll gradually release more lists later like they did with Horus Heresy. And I'm not sure it will be available online for "free" in that case.
They did say everything from Battle V8 will be playable, just not "when"...
as they said there won't be a starter/launch ox for beginners, adding the resin heroes is not a problem is it is not the same target group as a pure plastic box
and I see this is going the be more like a pre-order bundle with the regular products, which are the resin heroes and whatever is going to be released
kodos wrote: as they said there won't be a starter/launch ox for beginners, adding the resin heroes is not a problem is it is not the same target group as a pure plastic box
and I see this is going the be more like a pre-order bundle with the regular products, which are the resin heroes and whatever is going to be released
When have they done a launch box that included resin miniatures before?
I wouldnt bet on Ravening Hordes at start. More likely they will release rules over 1-2 years for all armies one by one.
The same was done with Necromunda. After release it took them 1 year to release all 6 main gangs. For Horus Heresy 1 year after release Daemons will get their own rules. They just released pdf with rules for Militia.
Glumy wrote: I wouldnt bet on Ravening Hordes at start. More likely they will release rules over 1-2 years for all armies one by one.
The same was done with Necromunda. After release it took them 1 year to release all 6 main gangs. For Horus Heresy 1 year after release Daemons will get their own rules. They just released pdf with rules for Militia.
So dont bet on all rules at the start.
With Necromunda at launch, they sold the Gangs of the Underhive book, which was basic rules for all 6 main gangs. They don't sell it any more, but I've still got my copy. Also a Gangs of Legend pdf for free with even more basic-er stats.
Exactly. I don't see them suddenly doing that here when they haven't before.
I remember oce upon a time they did a huge "Khorne Daemonkin Warband" box that included the short lived finecast Bloodletter Herald (a really cool model exept for the casting material -you need to glue a coin to the base to prevent him from falling though )
Otherwise, I dont think they done any boxes with resin characters.
Way back in the old days of 6th there would be limited edition metals in army boxes. Resin / Finecast wasn't an option as they weren't using it back then.
Finecast has been sold in army boxes before- early on in AoS release we had battleforces that contained finecast models.
I don't expect to see that done for the old world though, new resin models are going to be a money spinner for GW as even people with old armies/model backlog stashes the size of mountain might still buy new models. I doubt we will see them 'discounted' in the first releases (if at all).
the one thing that is unique is that GW said they are not bring anything that is meant to be sold to new players
boxes with other materials than plastic, as well as bundles without savings have been there before
and I don't expect that there will be a set with big savings as this is not meant for new players to get into the game but for those who would have bought it anyway
I am not claiming they are. What i said was intended as a statement of fact: they said this. No more, no less. Anything about boxes is pure speculation at this point.
I can almost guarantee GW expect to reach new gamers with this.
Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).
I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.
Fayric wrote: Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).
The LARP tie-in is the thing that's designed to reach new costumers. You'd hope TOW might interest some new customers, though.
Fayric wrote: I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.
In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.
Fayric wrote: I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.
In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.
Yeah, sorry, I got a bit carried away there. I still assume they have precise goals how many new customers they expect to reach.
(By the way, you made me notice my flag is not correct, Im way closer than you think.)
Fayric wrote: Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).
The LARP tie-in is the thing that's designed to reach new costumers. You'd hope TOW might interest some new customers, though.
Fayric wrote: I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.
In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.
Also, firing is a pretty drastical step that you would rarely employ on otherwise-adequate employees for missing goals sporadically due to reasons that may or may not be entirely in their control. Reducing or cancelling bonuses, doing a performance review and such certainly, that's what they're there for, but straight firing would be shooting yourself in the foot really. If you set the bonus targets right, i.e. not too high and not too low, you'd expect your employees to fall short of them sometime, if they succeed all the time the goals are probably too low, if they never get them they're set unrealistically high. Now, never being quite up to expectations is another thing, that's where you start thinking about letting people go - but depending on the position, that may take time as well, you'd want a trained replacement ready to go when they actually leave.
If GW wanted to bring in new players or the game would have a target on new people, there would need to be a starter box
this is the reason why all the speculation about Empire coming first in a civil war theme to have a pure Empire box that can be used to build 2 forces, or 1, just like the HH set
yet it looks more like HH1, but without the board games to get plastic models and a made to order like release with 2 factions that are seen as iconic for the game by the company because they never made it to AoS.
that the one person responsible for that will be fired is unlikely, as the whole situation is already a mess and the one who started the joke would be long gone already
it would be more likely that the one handling it leaves if HQ tells him he failed to reach certain targets but the resources/strategies to reach them were never approved
Fayric wrote: Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).
The LARP tie-in is the thing that's designed to reach new costumers. You'd hope TOW might interest some new customers, though.
I suspect the main market they are looking toward with TOW is the old WFB players who left after End Times. Which would also chip away at the customers of Mantic and other 'Ranks & Flanks' wargames that have sprung up since the launch of AoS. Bringing in Mantic (and other such games) customers would be a secondary goal.
I suspect they won't be as successful at that as they hope, though. Whether it'll be successful enough to be more than a flash in the pan, we'll see.
Fayric wrote: I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.
In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.
"Failure to meet performance standards" will get you fired for cause pretty much anywhere. But it would have to be a pretty spectacularly bad single quarter to be grounds for immediate termination though. Under more routine circumstances I expect it would take several consecutive bad quarters to do someone in; maybe even an entire bad year.
If I remember right they said, that there are going to be some kind of Start Collecting! style boxes, it would be not far fetched, if one or two boxes of these sets contains enough minis for let's say 1000 point game, which would lower the cost of entry. Thus there would be a chance to lure in more new blood for the game.
kodos wrote: If GW wanted to bring in new players or the game would have a target on new people, there would need to be a starter box
Depends of GW's definition of a "starter box", actually. It's clear from the FAQ and the clarification that went after on social media that the definition was not the same in the players' mind and GW's team.
From what I understood from the FAQ, it's not that GW doesn't want to bring in new players. Their target is simply not total newbies in wargames, more like people who already know wargames and are looking for something "deeper" than a simple game system. Or old Battle players.
Horus Heresy is the same. It's not targeted to total newbies as well, mostly people nostalgic of old 40k versions and who want to explore the past of 40k. They're usually not people who never played a wargame before.
this is the reason why all the speculation about Empire coming first in a civil war theme to have a pure Empire box that can be used to build 2 forces, or 1, just like the HH set
yet it looks more like HH1, but without the board games to get plastic models and a made to order like release with 2 factions that are seen as iconic for the game by the company because they never made it to AoS.
TBH, the speculation was more about the map they revealed first and the timeline they're focusing on. Actually it was Kislev they were talking about first, and at that time it was believed Kislev was one of the first armies.
Now who knows anymore ?
What I agree with you is the comparison with HH1, but mostly on the collection part. It really feels like the project is about collecting an army from that period, a bit like a historical army. Feels like it's targeted at collectors / painters more than gamers.
that the one person responsible for that will be fired is unlikely, as the whole situation is already a mess and the one who started the joke would be long gone already
it would be more likely that the one handling it leaves if HQ tells him he failed to reach certain targets but the resources/strategies to reach them were never approved
It's just the communication and the hype built by Warhammer Community that is a mess. The game's development follows its own course, it's normal it takes a lot of time. It's not something small they're working on, after all - we're talking about reviving a game with a lot of different factions. And well...since it's a Specialist Games project, we sadly are forced to accept the fact ressources put into it are not the same than for their main games.
Sarouan wrote: It really feels like the project is about collecting an army from that period, a bit like a historical army. Feels like it's targeted at collectors / painters more than gamers.
It feels like a project designed to make use of existing resources with minimal expenditures. Bringing back old kits with a few resin / plastic additions is much less resource intense. And they get to undercut the competitors that arose when they originally murdered WFB. Seems like a win win for GW.
With Necromunda at launch, they sold the Gangs of the Underhive book, which was basic rules for all 6 main gangs. They don't sell it any more, but I've still got my copy. Also a Gangs of Legend pdf for free with even more basic-er stats.
No they didnt. Hardback Gangs of the Underhive was released 1 year after the starter box. After all 6 gangs were released. Before hardback books there were softback Gang War books.
I suspect the main market they are looking toward with TOW is the old WFB players who left after End Times. Which would also chip away at the customers of Mantic and other 'Ranks & Flanks' wargames that have sprung up since the launch of AoS. Bringing in Mantic (and other such games) customers would be a secondary goal.
I suspect they won't be as successful at that as they hope, though. Whether it'll be successful enough to be more than a flash in the pan, we'll see.
From what I gather form discussions in the Kings of War community there appear to be three groups:
1- Have moved on to a better game/company as far as they are concerned and don't intend to play a GW game ever again.
2- Will give it a go and maybe play TOW along with other games.
3- Are just playing the available rank and flank fantasy wargame and will definitely switch to TOW when it's available.
I assume that other games have similar groups, but different proportions of each.
From this discussion it appears that there is another group:
4- Only plays GW and are waiting for TOW to finally play rank and flank again.
GW's target market has to be 3 and 4, with some of 2.
I think the reason for announcing so long before having something to release is to to stop people becoming 1 and 4's from becoming 3's (and potentially then 1's).
I'll limit the salt to suggesting that GW does not want people trying games outside the GW bubble if they can help it.
I think that the genie is out of the bottle and that GW will never regain the market share WHFB enjoyed.
Too many people have moved on and other games have grown enough to establish themselves.
From this discussion it appears that there is another group:
4- Only plays GW and are waiting for TOW to finally play rank and flank again.
This group is the one playing old versions of Battle they still own / get by other means - so they don't have to wait to play rank and file again, they never stopped playing it . And with the last previews, it's not universal. They mostly are looking at TOW because it means the return of their loved universe (and miniatures they can get for their armies), but they are watching if the game will be worth it or they simply keep playing at the old versions like usual.
Their members usually follow KoW groups for painted miniatures and such (the opposite is true as well). Lots of inspiration to get from each.
this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available), but there are literal people who play nothing at all (or at least no Fantasy game) and wait for GW to release something for them to play again and the longer GW waits the bigger the chance they finally wander off
some of the local HH players are from that group, no matter what other Fantasy game is available to play, they are waiting for TOW
herjan1987 wrote: If I remember right they said, that there are going to be some kind of Start Collecting! style boxes, it would be not far fetched, if one or two boxes of these sets contains enough minis for let's say 1000 point game, which would lower the cost of entry. Thus there would be a chance to lure in more new blood for the game.
Whilest i think a full "basic" army at 1000 pts in a box would be preciscly the way to get people into the hobby, i doubt GW's pricing structure would do the playerbase much of a service.
Compare 1000 pts in ogres, which basically amounts to a Tyrant (maybee), 1 Squad of bulls, 1-2 squads of gnoblars, maybee a squad of iron guts and then compare that to 1000 pts for Vampire counts. Not even going into skaven.
herjan1987 wrote: If I remember right they said, that there are going to be some kind of Start Collecting! style boxes, it would be not far fetched, if one or two boxes of these sets contains enough minis for let's say 1000 point game, which would lower the cost of entry. Thus there would be a chance to lure in more new blood for the game.
Whilest i think a full "basic" army at 1000 pts in a box would be preciscly the way to get people into the hobby, i doubt GW's pricing structure would do the playerbase much of a service.
Compare 1000 pts in ogres, which basically amounts to a Tyrant (maybee), 1 Squad of bulls, 1-2 squads of gnoblars, maybee a squad of iron guts and then compare that to 1000 pts for Vampire counts. Not even going into skaven.
I am only speculating with 1000 points, maybe GW will bring out a game mode like Vanguard Clash, which is played at 500 to 750 points and they will just rock everything that excisted in the history of low point entry games.
kodos wrote: this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),
Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.
There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.
I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.
I am following this news simply to see what old kits get a release and can be purchased again.
Expectations for the rules are almost nothing. Pretty sure it will be similar to most modern games. Lots and lots of special rules for every model. No real tactical decisions other than how to optimize your special rules and diminish the opponents. But I will have a look and play a game or 2. It might surprise me.
Sticking with 3rd edition but looking to see if I can pick up some extra models.
I have every army for third with the exception of Slaan, (which I am going to proxy lizardmen for) and Skaven. So perhaps time to load up on hordes of rats.
Regarding other games. I played Hordes of the Things a bit, Raven, and Fantasy Rules!. Tried Mantic also. I like Warhammer because of the various formations a unit can adopt. Being 8 wide and 3 deep vs. 6 wide and 4 deep can make a difference.
Just my opinion though.
I am pretty sure I am not the intended audience. But I have spent a lot of cash on GW since about 1987.
kodos wrote: this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),
Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.
There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.
I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.
I have not played fantasy battle since late 90s. Me and a friend was just about to give it a try when they switched to AoS, so I put all those high eleves I just bought in the closet and kept playing 40k Started collecting AoS but dont play it, and started HH because a friend was really in to it. The friends I play with always end up playing just GW games because its the only game system that is easily accesable for people in my area. So, I would fit really well in your analyse At the moment Im quite fond of 6th edition fantasy battle reports on You Tube, and will most likely get models for ToW but not play.
kodos wrote: this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),
Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.
Kodos gets it.
Old editions also fall under what's currently available.
There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.
I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.
Yes. Those players would be the ones GW don't have to worry about (i.e. group 4).
The most common reason I hear for people staying in the GW bubble is that people don't think that there is enough going on outdide the GW bubble to find opponents and/or a gaming group. Often because thier gaming group/store is only interested in GW.
In my experience this is rarely actually the case.
Most players of any game are usually unaware of most of the other gaming going on nearby.
I only felt comfortable entirely quitting GW after I found that I could almost certainly find a game of Infinity in any city with wargamers.
I don't even play Infinity anymore (for very different reasons) and there's still more wargaming available than I have time for.
I think nostalgia is why some players give new stuff from GW a look rather than moving on entirely.
Matrindur wrote: From over on TGA, seems like it originally came from a FB group? These should be from the commemorative stamps coming out in the UK at the end of June
8th of June, not end of June, as per the official Royal Mail calendar:
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been looking forward to those Warhammer Stamps, but I didn't expect them to just be photos of miniatures. I expected artwork...
They usually do a lot of different motives for a theme, there'll probably be ones with artwork as well.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been looking forward to those Warhammer Stamps, but I didn't expect them to just be photos of miniatures. I expected artwork...
These are 'widescreen' high-value stamps, I expect the smaller, portrait 1st, 2nd class etc. will have art, although it could just be a single model, I guess.
So we can assume that the more modern Warhammer Fantasy kits are removed from AoS and go back to TOW
While the newer AoS kits are not meant to be used in TOW
I can't put my finger on why, but these feel fake as hell...
The 0s in 40.000 have diagonal lines inside, which GW usually does not do, the AOS texts have something weird going on with them and look like they change size, and the TOW text on the dwarfs looks misaligned, although that may be due to the background. It's either something like the cardboard backing being bent as hell combined with the protective foil, but something is very weird about all of this.
Also: upper right corner: Pack. No. 69? Really?
Looking it up it should be #634, so okay, could be a 3, i guess. Also the black background is weird, the other sets all have much more elaborate background designs, but that could also be a design decision, or this set is a misprint that should have been destroyed and got nabbed by someone instead.
kodos wrote: So we can assume that the more modern Warhammer Fantasy kits are removed from AoS and go back to TOW
While the newer AoS kits are not meant to be used in TOW
Why wouldn't they just throw in extra bases and have the sets used for both? ISTR that there was quite a while when Demons came with both round & square bases for WFB and WH40K.
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements. Fans of these armies can also all look forward to some shiny new miniatures that will accompany the return of many classic kits.
What About the Other Factions?
Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.
Dark Elves
Skaven
Vampire Counts
Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Lizardmen
Chaos Dwarfs
These legacy faction army lists will be made available for free as pdfs as a service to fans who have these classic armies on their shelf, so they can still bring them to battle for old times sake. We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
scarletsquig wrote: Very interesting, only 9 factions. Still a lot more than some people were expecting.
Narrows things down to a very limited classic fantasy spectrum - Humans, Elves and Dwarfs vs. Orcs, Chaos and Undead.
It looks a bit like the armies that get remade are the ones that don't have a very strong, very tied-to-GW visual identity (i.e. are a bit more 'generic fantasy') and the ones that have strong GW-specific visuals are left out for the most part. But anyway, 9 Armies is a lot for a launch, even if they just make a couple of new things for each. That's the first DD that contains more than a small bit of concrete, useable information, and makes me cautiously optimistic again. Although of course only legacy Chorfs and no mention of Kislev makes you wonder what sort nonsense they were peddling in their earliest DDs
This feels like such an arbitrary list of factions. Two Elf flavours, but no Skaven. Tomb Kings on a holiday trip up north, but no VC.
I get the specific time period they picked lets them get away with it, but more and more it seems like the project doesn't have a strong core idea of what they want it to be and is instead being stitched together as it goes.
kodos wrote: So we can assume that the more modern Warhammer Fantasy kits are removed from AoS and go back to TOW
While the newer AoS kits are not meant to be used in TOW
Why wouldn't they just throw in extra bases and have the sets used for both? ISTR that there was quite a while when Demons came with both round & square bases for WFB and WH40K.
GW does not like cross platform for some reason - makes no sense to me....
Although all the dwarf kits I want are currently around in AOS, it will be nice to pick up some cannons and miners again for the bits alone, plus some heroes.
I’m just very thankful I never splurged on buying OOP fantasy models, save for the occasional metal hero (ones that had been finecastEd)
I hope they’ll still make models from those other factions available in smaller waves, even if it’s on a MTO basis. No big skaven faction may mean no island of blood remake, but maybe battle for skull pass is still on the table
tneva82 wrote: Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.
Was it - when was that?
That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.
Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.
Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.
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His Master's Voice wrote: This feels like such an arbitrary list of factions. Two Elf flavours, but no Skaven. Tomb Kings on a holiday trip up north, but no VC.
I get the specific time period they picked lets them get away with it, but more and more it seems like the project doesn't have a strong core idea of what they want it to be and is instead being stitched together as it goes.
Well some trimming was inevitable. As is it's surprisingly many factions.
tneva82 wrote: Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.
Was it - when was that?
That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.
Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.
Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.
Ah no - they are long term allies so they were included as units you could take representing the long standing alliance.
As far as I know since the time of Sigmar, the people that inhabited Kislev have been independant - although Simgar almost wiped out the Roppsmen in an campain of brutal vengance whilst under the influence of the Crown of Nagash.
so instead of the assumed civil war setting, vampire wars or great war against chaos, we have the border princess
it was the classic setting for campaigns were everyone was involved, setting of the early pc games and has some nostalgia
but that is boring compared to the others
for the armies, article reads as if only the side factions get free rules
depends if we see army books at start or an index like book for good and bad ones.
His Master's Voice wrote: This feels like such an arbitrary list of factions. Two Elf flavours, but no Skaven. Tomb Kings on a holiday trip up north, but no VC.
I get the specific time period they picked lets them get away with it, but more and more it seems like the project doesn't have a strong core idea of what they want it to be and is instead being stitched together as it goes.
I think to some extent the decision making has to do with IP preservation. Most of the excluded factions are well-entrenched into AoS now (Skaven, Ogres, Lizards, Vamps, Daemons, there are rumors of Chaos Dwarves coming soon, and Dark Elves are partially covered already via Daughters of Khaine, with "Umbraneth" presumably going to cover the remainder). Traditional fantasy knights, Tolkienesque Dwarves and Elves (in 2 flavors, and no Lumineth don't count here, they are actually a fairly large departure from traditional fantasy elf tropes), old fashioned orcs & gobbos, and egyptian undead are nowhere to be found in AoS and don't entirely fit the setting. Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos are well represented in AoS (though Beastmen have been a bit of bastard step-child, maybe they get fully ported to TOW and support for them in AoS gets cut? Doubtful), but I guess they needed some bad guys, unless they take a different tact with the Warriors of Chaos here and lean into Norsca and Kurgan aesthetics vs the heavy plate look of AoS/traditional warriors. Maybe TOW beastmen will be less cow and goat people and more like, I dunno, badgers and skunks or something. Empire also sits in a wierd spot as Freeguild or whatever seem to be adapting that aesthetic into AoS well, but the Empire is such a key part of the setting you can't really avoid it - also possible they go with a different aesthetic from what we're used to here, a bit less steampunk, a bit more traditional HRE, etc.
"Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World"
"Anyway here is the Cathay army"
Make it make sense!
Considering theres zero mention of Cathay being an included army at this point?
I wonder if that will translate into sucky ally rules.
Do you? I wonder if it will translate to an actual game!
Also, Tomb Kings are not 'Evil', even if one recognizes that Warhammer does not conform to Good/Evil splits easily, and Wood Elves are not 'Good'. It seems like a reduction in scope of the game comes along with a Flanderization of its themes and lore... anyway, now it's 'Narrative supplements', i wonder if that's just another name for something like e.g. the Campaign Sets of old, and means they want to get out of this setting with four or five printed products, in total?
I wonder if that will translate into sucky ally rules.
Do you? I wonder if it will translate to an actual game!
Also, Tomb Kings are not 'Evil', even if one recognizes that Warhammer does not conform to Good/Evil splits easily, and Wood Elves are not 'Good'. It seems like a reduction in scope of the game comes along with a Flanderization of its themes and lore... anyway, now it's 'Narrative supplements', i wonder if that's just another name for something like e.g. the Campaign Sets of old, and means they want to get out of this setting with four or five printed products, in total?
Actually, Warhammer sported a defined alignment system (well, scale) for a long time. Classically, warhammer wood elves did have Good alignment, and undead and orcs Evil.
The weirder aspect of this is stuffing humans and dwarfs under Good rather Neutral.
Now, personally I think alignment schemes are stupid, but if you want a return to the Old World and classic Warhammer things, alignment is a viable pick. I guess (it seems tone deaf in the current market, when even D&D is drifting away from hidebound alignment).
----
Anyway, after all the buildup about bretonnia, kislev and the empire and whatever (3 emperors, siege of prague, vampire wars) this deals with... nothing.
Just pokey battles in Neutral Land against rabble and Khemri. And, inexplicably, chaos warriors and elves anyway.
Exciting!
Three game designers diverged in a wood and the compromise was this, was it?
Gert wrote: I am so confused as to what is evening going on anymore with this.
I'd be surprised if GW even knows anymore At this point it looks like they did at least one radical direction change for this without telling us, but whatever.
I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.
I totally get that they can't release something so big that every army is there in full and they need to focus on something specific at the start, but what this article implies is that they aren't starting small and building up from there. They're just not bothering with half of the setting or armies at all.
This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.
It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.
It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.
kodos wrote: Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"
why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away
Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.
What the hell has been happening with development of this game? 4 years plus and all we really know is that some old models are coming back and a few new plastic units and character models from forgeworld. What happened to that Kislev army they showed in full ages ago? Or Cathay? How will they fit into the "narrative" they're trying to tell?
For the amount of time it's taken them I would have liked for at least 2 fully redone armies and a proper starter set
kodos wrote: Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"
why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away
Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.
Just because they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".
GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.
For people like you, GW are literally in a no-win situation, whatever they do.
kodos wrote: Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"
why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away
Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.
I don't think what they're doing is indefensible, just confused and not showing a solid plan. It is fine to either (1) re-release WHFB and just say we'll be releasing armies as they come, or (2) do a HH style limited setting dictated by the lore. But they're not really doing either with Old World. They seem hesitant to just say it's WHFB 2.0, but contradict themselves with the 'lore locked setting' aspect by releasing new armies which are not tied to the lore specific settting.
It just doesn't inspire confience, but hopefully they get their heads screwed on. Because I am very looking forward to Old World otherwise!
Mentlegen324 wrote: I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.
I totally get that they can't release something so big that every army is there in full and they need to focus on something specific at the start, but what this article implies is that they aren't starting small and building up from there. They're just not bothering with half of the setting or armies at all.
This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.
It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.
It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.
I think you're correct, but money talks. If it becomes successful - they will expand it. If not...
For me I'm not onboard until I have lots more details.
So are tomb king being shoehorned in because they the biggest backlash when the models were discontinued? Skaven and undead are scarce, but the tomb king need to go reclaim their Knickknacks
kodos wrote: Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"
why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away
Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.
Just becuase they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".
GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.
For people like you GW are literally in a no win situation, whatever they do.
I don't think that is what they (and me) were saying. It IS good that they're getting rules even if they are OOP. It was brought up to refute the argument Cathay and Kislev aren't getting rules on release because they don't have models available yet (which itself was an argument to somehow attempt to justify why a lot of factions were 'too far away' to be included, despite Cathay being included).
GaroRobe wrote: So are tomb king being shoehorned in because they the biggest backlash when the models were discontinued? Skaven and undead are scarce, but the tomb king need to go reclaim their Knickknacks
Vampire Courts are "sleeping" because they have no power because all the von Carsteins are defeated but those sleepy Pharaohs and their Undead Armies from far far away Khemri and their ancient dusty range are all in.
Also Chaos is sleeping too, because powerless like the Vampires but because Chaos is Chaos so Chaos is also all in...
kodos wrote: Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"
why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away
Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.
Just because they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".
GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.
For people like you, GW are literally in a no-win situation, whatever they do.
Edit: typos
I am not sure what you are reading into my post. I am saying that the argument about rules for Kislev and Kislev models doesn't hold water when they are releasing rules for Chaos Dwarves who also don't have models. If you really want to make that point, at least find someone who is talking about the same thing.
More proof that the renders they showed were from Total War, and thats not a great look.
I understand it from a business perspective. Ogres, Skaven, lizardmen and dark elves could have all pulled 'double duty' in TOW and AoS.
This way, it forces people to buy into two separate ranges if they want to play AND keep up to date with any rules changes/releases. Then when sales drop, they can swop in and 'refresh' those ranges.
But there is no way I could ever sell this game to my gaming group now. Why would any of them want to play this over an older edition of WFB where we have rules for ALL the forces played between us.
Those pity pdfs they put out will likely last as long as the AoS legends ones did, or the original necromunda gang. And that's before you have 'official only' folk only wanting to play people with currently sold rules.
Meh. I never expected for the new game to actually cater to me but I didn't think GW would find a way to actively sell me on finishing up buying the last couple of battletomes I need for 6th Ed. At this point, I see it nothing more than a 'made to order' run on those armies that are getting releases.
Mallo wrote: I understand it from a business perspective. Ogres, Skaven, lizardmen and dark elves could have all pulled 'double duty' in TOW and AoS.
This way, it forces people to buy into two separate ranges if they want to play AND keep up to date with any rules changes/releases. Then when sales drop, they can swop in and 'refresh' those ranges.
But there is no way I could ever sell this game to my gaming group now. Why would any of them want to play this over an older edition of WFB where we have rules for ALL the forces played between us.
Those pity pdfs they put out will likely last as long as the AoS legends ones did, or the original necromunda gang. And that's before you have 'official only' folk only wanting to play people with currently sold rules.
Meh. I never expected for the new game to actually cater to me but I didn't think GW would find a way to actively sell me on finishing up buying the last couple of battletomes I need for 6th Ed. At this point, I see it nothing more than a 'made to order' run on those armies that are getting releases.
Not sure if this is true. I feel like the Warhammer fantasy crowd and age of sigmar don't overlap that much. By bringing back every army, and including square bases with the new aos 'remake' models, you'd get people to buy them that normally wouldn't have a reason to
What a shambles. As if blowing the world up wasn’t bad enough, now this half assed cash in is really gonna stomp on its ashes.
How a company that has the balls to charge nearly fifty quid for a box of centigors doesn’t have the guts to cancel this clearly unloved, rapidly diminishing project I have no idea.
Just release classic kits in waves if you want to milk the old fans a bit, GW. They’ll probs sell better that way than through whatever weird experiment this is.
kodos wrote: Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"
why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away
Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.
Just because they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".
GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.
For people like you, GW are literally in a no-win situation, whatever they do.
Edit: typos
I am not sure what you are reading into my post. I am saying that the argument about rules for Kislev and Kislev models doesn't hold water when they are releasing rules for Chaos Dwarves who also don't have models. If you really want to make that point, at least find someone who is talking about the same thing.
More proof that the renders they showed were from Total War, and thats not a great look.
Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
Nothing wrong with casting a critical eye over releases. If you're a Vampire Counts guy who has been excited for the re-release, it isn't unreasonable to be disappointed your army won't be supported.
Also if you are invested in WHFB being released, it's reasonable to want to see it done in a 'good way' (and you may disagree with what would be a good way, but it's a legitimate opinion).
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
Yep, exactly this. No one can find anything problematic unless they can never be satisfied. Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.
That's just the 'community' being sour.
tneva82 wrote: Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.
Was it - when was that?
That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.
Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.
Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.
Ah no - they are long term allies so they were included as units you could take representing the long standing alliance.
As far as I know since the time of Sigmar, the people that inhabited Kislev have been independant - although Simgar almost wiped out the Roppsmen in an campain of brutal vengance whilst under the influence of the Crown of Nagash.
Yea? I'm not talking about fluff but rules.
Are you claiming kislev units not been part of empire book before? If yes you are lving. If not then you agree with me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... no rules for the Border Princes, but... the game is set there?
If done right, the rules for Empire should cover Border Princes. Whether it will be done right is a different question.
Shame they ruled out Tilea earlier, since that's also in the region. But with Dogs of War so tied to characters and regiments of renown from a couple of centuries later, and GW's fetish for having unit entries tied to specific model kits, I guess that was a given.
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... no rules for the Border Princes, but... the game is set there?
Obviously. That's why we got a brief history of Bretonnian dukedoms and empire provinces in past diaries.
Kislev and Cathay and maps with vampire nests.
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.
Just the link titles say a lot. There are more as well, if you want to dig. They spent an inordinate amount of time mapping and describing Bretonnia and the Empire for places the game isn't going to be. But of course it was always definitely intended this way, right?
Mentlegen324 wrote: I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.
No. Your opinion is they don't have idea.
Guess what? You aren't the one with authority to decide do they have idea or not
I thought I would take a trip back to the bad old days of 2020 and 2021. At some point Kislev was planned, to include alleged models in development, and was part of the map.
So no Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms?
That's zapped all interest I had in the rebirth of the game. I'll stick with KoW, although I may look into some of the orc models if anything from the old style is released.
caladancid wrote: I thought I would take a trip back to the bad old days of 2020 and 2021. At some point Kislev was planned, to include alleged models in development, and was part of the map.
Today? Not so much I guess?
And gw has said they don't release?
If you assumed they come out right away that was your assumption. Not what gw said.
Don't trv to assume you know more than what gw tells.
And where for example they said kislev is out first wave?
Nowhere.
If you decide you know better than gw then that's your mistake.
Your observations are useless.
Where did _I_ say 'they said kislev is out first wave?'
If you didn't think Kislev was relevant for the game despite "kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered " then I can not ever understand your thought process, and there isn't any reason for you to reply to me ever.
I'm usually not one to cry wolf over everything GW does - but as these releases are meant to build hype, it really feels like one step forward and two steps back.
Ignoring what we have learned in more recent times, a focused release would have made sense to me. Back when first announced I expected a boring Empire vs Chaos box and release - maybe followed by Dwarfs and O&Gs. All new models. If it isn't dead on arrival, make more like usual.
But instead we are told 9 factions are getting "some shiny new miniatures that will accompany the return of many classic kits."
To my mind 9 is far too many to be "focused". And if we are talking about mainly old kits plus a couple of forgeworld characters, why not include the other few factions cut out? If we are talking more conventional support - then if say Wood Elves get their new minis circa 2026, are GW terrified people might hope to see Skaven or Dark Elves some time in 2027?
Basically I don't understand what GW are doing with this release. So I am left wondering if this is a confused cash grab aimed at old gamers who have some nostalgia for 20+ year old kits.
caladancid wrote: I thought I would take a trip back to the bad old days of 2020 and 2021. At some point Kislev was planned, to include alleged models in development, and was part of the map.
Today? Not so much I guess?
And gw has said they don't release?
If you assumed they come out right away that was your assumption. Not what gw said.
Don't trv to assume you know more than what gw tells.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.
No. Your opinion is they don't have idea.
Guess what? You aren't the one with authority to decide do they have idea or not
As is game is shaping up as expected.
What as asinine response. You seem to have missed the first two words where I said its my feelings on the matter.
You aren't the the one with authority to decide if the game is shaping up as expected or not
Fellas (and ladies that might happen to be reading) this is soul crushing for me...5 out of my 7 armies (my 8th is high elves all on sprues thank God) will get legends treatment and not be part of the game.
This makes me seriously question my commitment to this game now, it's one thing to not initially support all of the factions out of the gate and gauge if this will be profitable as a product before committing to supporting the rest of the range. It's another thing to flat out indicate that for lore reasons they won't be included at all in the game.
My impression is GW think this is going to be a big game release and thus they've shifted from adding new factions with fewer models to adding old factions in greater numbers which they can bulk out because they've already got a lot of the moulds ready to go from before.
They are also likely getting a LOT of interest from people who have old armies (eg TK to name but one) who want to expand those forces and get them playing again.
Kislev were old and niche at their time; whilst Cathay is totally fresh. So GW might not feel as much pressure from marketing for them compared to the people likely screaming at them for TK to return or Brets or such.
So perhaps the plan has changed and we will see the old armies take the lead at the launch with newer forces coming a little later. I doubt GW threw all the Cathay and Kislev stuff out the window.
Plus we honestly don't know what the release windows are or what its going to roll out like.
Everyone whinging over Kislev (and to a lesser extent Cathay) - it's clear that today's article just dealt with the existing 8e armies. I would expect to see Kislev pop up in year 2 or 3 of the game if it's successful under a new supplement. Hell I wouldn't even be surprised if they're in the launch books and just haven't been mentioned in this article because they're not an 8e army and GW want to market them separately.
GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.
My point is that within the context of todays article, Cathay aren't coming. Assuming Cathay hasn't been shitcanned, the implication you can take away from this is that todays article is not complete nor binding, and that Cathay, Dark Elves, etc. could feasibly become "featured armies" or whatever the jargon is at a later date.
----
Anyway, after all the buildup about bretonnia, kislev and the empire and whatever (3 emperors, siege of prague, vampire wars) this deals with... nothing.
Just pokey battles in Neutral Land against rabble and Khemri. And, inexplicably, chaos warriors and elves anyway.
Exciting!
Three game designers diverged in a wood and the compromise was this, was it?
At Warhammer Fest they did say that the Three Emperors narrative would not be explored on launch, and that they would be focusing the initial release on getting out rules for peoples existing collections, etc. It seems they went with the "Border Princes" as a sort of "blank slate" setting/narrative to enable this for the first, I dunno 6 months? Year? 3 Years? after launch, and THEN they will get into the "new stuff" with Three Emperors lore and Kislev, and all the other gak.
This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.
It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.
It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.
"I told you so". I mean, I think you're going too far in the wrong direction, unless they completely changed all their plans they teased from the past couple years, it seems that its a game designed to grow and evolve over time, given the promises of Kislev and Cathay in the future, but from the beginning theres been quite a few of us saying (and being shouted down by naysayers) that the community should curb its expectations and that it wasn't a coincidence that the game is called "The Old World" and basically the first actual thing they showed us (after the logo) was a map of the literal continent of The Old World and not much else. I expect some of those other factions to make a comeback, along with new ones, but it seems clear that they regard factions like the Ogres and Lizardmen to now be the provenance of Age of Sigmar and don't feel obligated to heavily explore them more in the-world-that-was. Doesn't mean they won't ever get attention, but safe to say they are lower in priority and they have a lot more interest in fleshing out other aspects of the setting that aren't redundant to their current flagship fantasy IP.
James12345 wrote: What the hell has been happening with development of this game? 4 years plus and all we really know is that some old models are coming back and a few new plastic units and character models from forgeworld. What happened to that Kislev army they showed in full ages ago? Or Cathay? How will they fit into the "narrative" they're trying to tell?
For the amount of time it's taken them I would have liked for at least 2 fully redone armies and a proper starter set
NGL - this does seem like either a massive misstep in marketing or the result of a very troubled development cycle, etc. that has caused them to change their plans several times while they were right in the middle of it. Hard to tell which, maybe both. The messaging behind the game has been disjointed/inconsistent/poor from the start. Ex - if they previously hinted/outright stated that Kislev and/or Cathay were to be included, why not mention that anywhere in this article? Surely they would know that people are dumb and short-sighted and will not remember articles put out 2 years ago or will assume that lack of continued mention of it means its no longer happening, etc. A simple line to the effect of "long term, fans of The Old World can expect new armies to join the fray, such as Kislev and Cathay which we have told you previously will be joining the fight on a tabletop near you!" would have done absolute wonders, no? Likewise, why did they tell us at Warhammer Fest that the release plans for the game were to focus on getting content out for legacy armies and then focusing on the new narrative, but not mention that in this article nor any of the other articles released on Warcom? Do they assume that we all know what was said at one specific seminar attended by just a few hundred people a few weeks ago? Not everyone follows rumormongers on Twitter and Facebook and will be familiar with those details - also those details are coming at us through filter and interpretation and might not be 100% accurate either.
In any case, to me it seems clear that things have not gone smoothly behind the scenes, with how long this has taken and how little they actually have to show for it. The fact that they seem to be launching the game with legacy kits instead of a whole new model range (which they seem to be promising/implying will be coming later on in the games development) seems to be a big giveaway that major decisions were made to move TOW in a direction other than what was originally planned at the very start when it was revealed to us,a nd the production timeline as a result is not keeping pace with their release timeline. My guess is that they were originally intending to launch with all-new armies and models and were going to leave the legacy stuff behind or circle to some of it later, but based on community feedback (and/or focus group testing) and kvetching they realised that would be unpopular, so instead they are trying to appease the existing "core" community" to some extent by bringing forward legacy rules first and THEN circling around to the new stuff.
I think limiting the initial scope of their 4yr old vaporware is a reasonable move. The whole thing might just be an exercise to see how long they can string you guys along for.
I had hoped they would rerelease Island of Blood which remains one of the most visually stunning starter boxes they have ever produced. But with no Skaven looks like that won't be the case.
Gallahad wrote: I think limiting the initial scope of their 4yr old vaporware is a reasonable move. The whole thing might just be an exercise to see how long they can string you guys along for.
I had hoped they would rerelease Island of Blood which remains one of the most visually stunning starter boxes they have ever produced. But with no Skaven looks like that won't be the case.
The problem is this doesn't appear to be just the initial scope. It outright says that even as the narrative develops, the other stuff isn't part of what the project covers.
This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.
It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.
It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.
"I told you so". I mean, I think you're going too far in the wrong direction, unless they completely changed all their plans they teased from the past couple years, it seems that its a game designed to grow and evolve over time, given the promises of Kislev and Cathay in the future, but from the beginning theres been quite a few of us saying (and being shouted down by naysayers) that the community should curb its expectations and that it wasn't a coincidence that the game is called "The Old World" and basically the first actual thing they showed us (after the logo) was a map of the literal continent of The Old World and not much else. I expect some of those other factions to make a comeback, along with new ones, but it seems clear that they regard factions like the Ogres and Lizardmen to now be the provenance of Age of Sigmar and don't feel obligated to heavily explore them more in the-world-that-was. Doesn't mean they won't ever get attention, but safe to say they are lower in priority and they have a lot more interest in fleshing out other aspects of the setting that aren't redundant to their current flagship fantasy IP.
"The Old World" is a term they've used to refer to the WHFB setting as whole, not just that specific continent, and the maps and articles talking about Cathay and Kislev - who are outside of that part of the map - further implied it wasn't just that.
Now it is, with no hint at all about any of that other stuff, and them outright saying things outside of these armies aren't part of the narrative even as it progresses.
Great post that sums up my misgivings about the thing perfectly - their communication is a jumbled mess, and as a result all sorts of people have varying levels of information and the community in general is confused and angry. Probably angrier than it should be, but that is on GW - it seems like we have been marketed three totally different approaches to the Old World under that label already, and there are no signs of the game being released anytime soon. Doing a two-tiered list of armies, where one half of the existing things get new models and books and the rest gets a warm handshake and a get-you-by pdf is bound to rile people up, especially when done with a paper-thin excuse of 'muh narrative' and no rhyme or reason. 'Narrative' for GW, outside of Forgeworld books, usually means little value for definitely not-little money...
This project lacks focus, a plan and above all, coherent and unambiguous communications.
Dang, they just decided to ditch Cathay and Kislev then? They had an article a couple of years ago indicating they'd be playable factions, but I guess they just decided to drop them like a bad idea.
Londinium wrote: Everyone whinging over Kislev (and to a lesser extent Cathay) - it's clear that today's article just dealt with the existing 8e armies. I would expect to see Kislev pop up in year 2 or 3 of the game if it's successful under a new supplement. Hell I wouldn't even be surprised if they're in the launch books and just haven't been mentioned in this article because they're not an 8e army and GW want to market them separately.
GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.
Read between the lines, it's not tough.
You aren’t just reading between the lines, you are just making up what you wish was happening. The articles that are linked and screenshotted for you to look at, if you want to, say Kislev is a faction. Not maybe a faction. Not coming later if the game sells well. It was the FIRST faction previewed.
With regard to Kislev and Cathay, it doesn't technically say they aren't part of it. The armies that aren't getting featured are specifically called out as legacy WHFB armies, which Kislev and Cathay were not.
Irritating technicality is hardly a new thing for GW.
It is still objectively true that any and all comms for this game are a huge mess, however. Not disagreeing there.
Gert wrote: With regard to Kislev and Cathay, it doesn't technically say they aren't part of it. The armies that aren't getting featured are specifically called out as legacy WHFB armies, which Kislev and Cathay were not.
Irritating technicality is hardly a new thing for GW.
It is still objectively true that any and all comms for this game are a huge mess, however. Not disagreeing there.
Some of their decisions only make sense when you assume some sort of underlying motive - for example the exlcusion of e.g. Chaos Demons makes no sense thematically. Imho there are some equally likely possibilities: either they want to focus on the races that need their IP strengthened and tied to GW, or they want to focus on stuff that is only useful in TOW, to have an accurate gauge of the economic prospects of that game (i.e. no sales 'hidden' by stuff that is multi-purpose in AoS and 40k as well, like Demons). It might be something like a very hard 'succeed or die' deadline looming over the project due to time and cost overshoot, who knows.
Pretty sure the article says that entire Daemon armies aren't in the game because Chaos is in a period of low power prior to the ascension of the next Everchosen. So while Daemons are a thing, they're just small summoned bands or ascended mortals rather than entire Legions breaching the veil between the Realm of Chaos and the mortal world.
I don't know WHFB's background well enough to say if this is true but it fits with how I know 40k Daemons work with regards to them only manifesting en masse when a world is truly screwed.
The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over. I don't buy the "narrative" excuse either, as why would tomb kings and high elves be involved when skaven isn't? Cathay and kislev are MIA too, despite being the focus of early marketing material.
I think something has gone very wrong in development. I think it was meant to release 1 to 2 years after the initial announcement, with all new models, but for some reason they decided to completely change direction and that's why it's been 5 and we still have pretty much no info.
I think it was meant to release 1 to 2 years after the initial announcement
It definitely was not. The initial announcement actively mentioned 3 years, minimum (and stressed minimum). And that was best case before COVID, Brexit and shipping nonsense.
Yes, things have gone wrong (imo) and they changed direction, but a long development time was announced and expected. The only thing they had in place at the time of announcement was the logo and square bases.
I'm (pleasantly) surprised by the inclusion of Chaos Dwarves. I wonder if it's just a revisit of the Legion of Azgorh list?
Regarding some armies getting a legacy pdf vs full support, it may just be that there was just simply not enough time to playtest/finish them to the same extent. If there's a hard deadline for the release of TOW, then it may be a case of shipping whatever is ready at the time.
James12345 wrote: The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.
I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.
James12345 wrote: The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.
I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.
But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?
James12345 wrote: But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?
Some, not all. Very few armies are exactly as they were when AoS started with those that had large portions of finecast or metal minis being the most gutted.
James12345 wrote: But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?
Some, not all. Very few armies are exactly as they were when AoS started with those that had large portions of finecast or metal minis being the most gutted.
I suspect many of the finecast minis won't be returning anyway, but that could be a problem. You could definitely create a more than workable army from what is available at the moment though.
MaxT wrote: Probably an object lesson in why you don’t announce stuff so far ahead - when things inevitably change during development peeps cry foul
Eh some have been crying foul the entire time since the first announcement Some just won't be pleased or read so far into the scant marketing that they come out the otherside with expectations wildly different from what's been shown.
In the end I'd wager MANY more are happy to see the armies returning that GW is advertising and are excited to get the rank and file game back along with a slew of classic models; many of which were very good in their time.
Londinium wrote: Everyone whinging over Kislev (and to a lesser extent Cathay) - it's clear that today's article just dealt with the existing 8e armies. I would expect to see Kislev pop up in year 2 or 3 of the game if it's successful under a new supplement. Hell I wouldn't even be surprised if they're in the launch books and just haven't been mentioned in this article because they're not an 8e army and GW want to market them separately.
GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.
Read between the lines, it's not tough.
You aren’t just reading between the lines, you are just making up what you wish was happening. The articles that are linked and screenshotted for you to look at, if you want to, say Kislev is a faction. Not maybe a faction. Not coming later if the game sells well. It was the FIRST faction previewed.
There's literally been Kislev concept art promoted, of new units and not just recycled. Either GW have utterly cocked up their production, which would be rare (Cursed City being one of the few examples in recent years) and considering these things have 2-3 years lead times, I doubt they would have shown Kislev concept art unless they were confident that Kislev was locked into the game. Or Kislev will be coming at some point, perhaps from the start and hasn't been mentioned because it wasn't an 8e army or perhaps early in the games lifespan. It'd be utterly stupid to launch a game set 20 years before the Siege of Praag, when an invasion of Kislev is the culmination of the historical era, when you've previewed Kislev concept art, when you've said Kislev will be in the game....then not release Kislev.
Having Kislev and other factions coming after an initial launch is actually very savvy sales by GW as the initial launch will sell regardless of new factions. Then once the initial hype drops you launch a new faction, being fleshed out properly for the first time to whip it back up.
The more I hear about this "Old World" nonsense, the less I like.
That is why Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Mordhiem skirmish is making a resurgence in my neck of the woods. The news about "The Old World" was THE best sales pitch to me to get back into fantasy and get the books and armies I couldn't get the first time around.
Then there's Mordhiem...
I'm back into Mordhiem again.
That "Old World" stuff looks to me like it was some releases that were supposed to come out when that AOS nonsense kicked off. Looks to me like someone is listening to the rumblings in the warp and reaching out as either a cash grab, or a test base to see if Fantasy kicks up again.
I've gone over to Kings of War for my rank and file fantasy fix and never looked back really. I'm mostly hoping Old World will be an opportunity to pick up models I missed the first time around, zero interest from a gameplay perspective.
MaxT wrote: Probably an object lesson in why you don’t announce stuff so far ahead - when things inevitably change during development peeps cry foul
Just a tidbit to put in perspective how far out they announced stuff: the Map of the Old World they showed in one of the earliest diaries/announcements was the first in-house piece of work for which Louise Sugden was the main creator - she has since had her career of seven years at SDS ('Forgeworld') and GW, was packaging designer, illustrator, presenter for Warhammer TV and more, and now has her own independent company.
MaxT wrote: Probably an object lesson in why you don’t announce stuff so far ahead - when things inevitably change during development peeps cry foul
Just a tidbit to put in perspective how far out they announced stuff: the Map of the Old World they showed in one of the earliest diaries/announcements was the first in-house piece of work for which Louise Sugden was the main creator - she has since had her career of seven years at SDS ('Forgeworld') and GW, was packaging designer, illustrator, presenter for Warhammer TV and more, and now has her own independent company.
I wonder if she or Chris peach will do a video about its development. Chris seems to be doing a lot of "exposing gw" type videos, would be interesting to get an insider view on it
Ignispacium wrote: Regarding some armies getting a legacy pdf vs full support, it may just be that there was just simply not enough time to playtest/finish them to the same extent. If there's a hard deadline for the release of TOW, then it may be a case of shipping whatever is ready at the time.
But there's no deadline?
Everyone will get "Ravening Hordes 2.0". Then the 9 factions seem set to get support - new models, army books, campaign supplements etc. Maybe things like Kislev and Cathay will show up - but so long as GW are working their way through this supposed roadmap, there will be nothing for Skaven, Lizardmen, DE etc.
This is presumably not something that will all come out together with a bang - but be rolled out over years.
If they just said "we hope for ToW to come out late this year/2024, and for the first few years we'll be looking at these 9 factions (and maybe some new ones, )" it would be fine. But instead it seems they are going "oh those other factions just aren't in this game. Cos we say so."
James12345 wrote: I wonder if she or Chris peach will do a video about its development. Chris seems to be doing a lot of "exposing gw" type videos, would be interesting to get an insider view on it
There is a difference between Chris Peach talking about his time as a retail monkey or why he decided to leave GW and "exposing" stuff. Talking about the development of a game system that is in active development isn't going to happen because NDAs are a very enforceable thing.
If they just said "we hope for ToW to come out late this year/2024, and for the first few years we'll be looking at these 9 factions (and maybe some new ones, )" it would be fine. But instead it seems they are going "oh those other factions just aren't in this game. Cos we say so."
The thing that is worrying about that is not so much the arbitrary nature of this decision, but the closedness of it. Usually, you don't get hard 'no's from GW concerning plans for the future - their usual marketing-talk around such issues is normally in the vein of 'there are no concrete plans to do that yet' or 'we'll have to decide that when we get around to doing these' or any conceivable iteration thereof. All their talk of 'This is not part of the narrative that we want to tell' etc. points to this being an effort that is somewhat limited, and will just end when the narrative is finished. And that is a factor that could conceivably prevent many people from investing time and money into this setting and system.
Londinium wrote: Everyone whinging over Kislev (and to a lesser extent Cathay) - it's clear that today's article just dealt with the existing 8e armies. I would expect to see Kislev pop up in year 2 or 3 of the game if it's successful under a new supplement. Hell I wouldn't even be surprised if they're in the launch books and just haven't been mentioned in this article because they're not an 8e army and GW want to market them separately.
GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.
Read between the lines, it's not tough.
You aren’t just reading between the lines, you are just making up what you wish was happening. The articles that are linked and screenshotted for you to look at, if you want to, say Kislev is a faction. Not maybe a faction. Not coming later if the game sells well. It was the FIRST faction previewed.
There's literally been Kislev concept art promoted, of new units and not just recycled. Either GW have utterly cocked up their production, which would be rare (Cursed City being one of the few examples in recent years) and considering these things have 2-3 years lead times, I doubt they would have shown Kislev concept art unless they were confident that Kislev was locked into the game. Or Kislev will be coming at some point, perhaps from the start and hasn't been mentioned because it wasn't an 8e army or perhaps early in the games lifespan. It'd be utterly stupid to launch a game set 20 years before the Siege of Praag, when an invasion of Kislev is the culmination of the historical era, when you've previewed Kislev concept art, when you've said Kislev will be in the game....then not release Kislev.
Having Kislev and other factions coming after an initial launch is actually very savvy sales by GW as the initial launch will sell regardless of new factions. Then once the initial hype drops you launch a new faction, being fleshed out properly for the first time to whip it back up.
We saw Kislev and Cathay earlier on, even maps for them, only to now have them say its centered on the Old World part of the map that those two aren't part of, with absolutely no indication of expanding to other areas/armies at a later time. What this article talks about isn't just for the initial launch of the game, it's talking about what the game itself consists of - and nowhere does it hint at expanding it beyond that later.
It says that these 9 armies are the core of the game itself, even with additional books later on and it says that other armies are not part of the narrative they're telling. Not that something like Skaven and Lizardmen are coming later, they're just not part of what the project covers beyond the lip service rules they're getting.
Yeah, it very much isn't qualified with "at launch" or "to begin with", it's "these are the factions the game will focus on". And it *is* weird that they've built up Cathay and Kislev so much, but now no sign of them. Clearly ran into some problems.
James12345 wrote: The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.
I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.
But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?
Stock levels are low on basically everything though, right?
They will need to manufacture a good amount for all these supportes armies. Not least for the new packaging/to include the bases.
Billicus wrote: Yeah, it very much isn't qualified with "at launch" or "to begin with", it's "these are the factions the game will focus on". And it *is* weird that they've built up Cathay and Kislev so much, but now no sign of them. Clearly ran into some problems.
So far we have been shown more diaries about things the game *isn't* about than ones that directly consider things that are 'in focus'...
As i said, there has to have been at least one major direction change that they're plastering over in their typical GW manner of never acknowledging the obvious.
James12345 wrote: I wonder if she or Chris peach will do a video about its development. Chris seems to be doing a lot of "exposing gw" type videos, would be interesting to get an insider view on it
There is a difference between Chris Peach talking about his time as a retail monkey or why he decided to leave GW and "exposing" stuff. Talking about the development of a game system that is in active development isn't going to happen because NDAs are a very enforceable thing.
Not only that but like several of the ex-presenter staff chances are he's wanting to keep his options open. The whole patreon/youtube market can implode or you can make a few mistakes and your numbers tank and suddenly a regular steady income stream from an employer is more attractive once more etc.... Heck some "content creators" just burn out after a while because the demand to produce can be quite extreme. Esp when you have to keep up with all the various marketing and search engine algorithms.
About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave. Given it's a whole new army demanding a full release of new miniatures and not recycling old ones, and given TOW is a Specialist Games project with far more limited ressources than for "their main games" AND much more limited calendar release dates...it actually makes sense it's not their priority RN. They will already have their hands full with putting old kits in production again and releasing full Bretonnians / Tombs Kings first. I'm not expecting all of that will be ready to be sold day one as well either.
But yeah, better keep your expectations low and stop getting hyped for anything unless you have an actual date and picture for the release.
What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.
That and they still don't tell about the measures of cavalry bases. And now monsters and chariots too. Tell them already, you did for infantry so go the full way now ! You know it, we saw them on the pictures showing just old miniatures rebased, we don't have to wait that damn sheet on "ReLeAse DaTE".
James12345 wrote: The decision to just bring back the old factions, but not all of them, is baffling to me. Especially when many of the abandoned ones have full, updated model lines as part of age of sigmar that could easily be transferred over.
I would imagine manufacturing capacity dictates that not everything that could be brought back is being brought back.
But all of the stuff is already back as part of age of sigmar! So why aren't they including them in this too?
Stock levels are low on basically everything though, right?
They will need to manufacture a good amount for all these supportes armies. Not least for the new packaging/to include the bases.
The brand new bases... which they're also going to produce en masse for replacements.
Sarouan wrote: About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave.
There is no "first wave" of armies, these are what the project consists of. The others are not part of the project.
From the article :
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.
So yes, there's a first wave that is intended. That means they intend to make more.
And "focusing on" doesn't mean "solely including".
But yeah, since they didn't put Kislev on the list, that means it's apparently not before a while.
Sarouan wrote: About the lack of Kislev, I guess that just means it's not in the first wave.
There is no "first wave" of armies, these are what the project consists of. The others are not part of the project.
From the article :
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.
So yes, there's a first wave that is intended. That means they intend to make more.
And "focusing on" doesn't mean "solely including".
But yeah, since they didn't put Kislev on the list, that means it's apparently not before a while.
Obviously there's a first wave of books. That's not the same as a first wave of armies.
Actually, in context, I'd argue it could be. The armies listed are the core armies of the game, which doesn't mean other stuff won't be added later on.
If the first wave is focusing on the Border Princes, the second wave could focus on the north where most of the core factions still operate but with the addition of Kislev. The third could focus on the east with Cathay fighting the forces of Chaos at the Great Bastion.
Again, still confusing and unclear but not an outright confirmation that Cathay and Kislev have been removed from consideration.
The armies not being 'supported' are those who have the majority of their ranges still on sale for AoS, and so don't require a relaunch of old models with new boxes wince they're already on shop shelves.
OK guys lets ratchet this down quite a bit. Lets shad some much needed light into this dark hole of despair that this post has become.
So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models. Now it is important to note that, if GW did not kill WHFB most if not all of these kits they are releasing would still be on the shelves. This is a respectable release.
Second, They are releasing ravaging hoards lists for the armies with the exception of the Dogs of War. This is good news for all of the players.
Sarouan wrote: What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.
well, I would not bet that the people at Warhammer Fest knew about this, or that this was already planned by that time
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Paymaster Games wrote: So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models.
I would not call that the good news
that GW meant by "best from 3rd to 8th" the models is something good for the collectors and those with existing armies that misses something
I am not very excited about mixing again models from 5th Edition with models from 8th (because of the different design and size), without an alternative
inconsistent model design was a reason why Warhammer did not sell well, and now we get this again, which means no new players unless those plastic are really really cheap
tneva82 wrote: Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.
Was it - when was that?
That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.
Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.
Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.
Ah no - they are long term allies so they were included as units you could take representing the long standing alliance.
As far as I know since the time of Sigmar, the people that inhabited Kislev have been independant - although Simgar almost wiped out the Roppsmen in an campain of brutal vengance whilst under the influence of the Crown of Nagash.
Yea? I'm not talking about fluff but rules.
Are you claiming kislev units not been part of empire book before? If yes you are lving. If not then you agree with me.
Then maybe you should've included "rules" or "book" or "army" in the initial post that was quoted - reading it as talking about Kislev being part of the Empire as a geographical construct is certainly not unreasonable.
Paymaster Games wrote: So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units.
I don't think you're going to see that much new stuff come out, personally. Actually I could have sworn they said at Warhammer Fest or something that they would be focusing on releasing new character and hero minis rather than units, but I could be wrong about that.
Paymaster Games wrote: OK guys lets ratchet this down quite a bit. Lets shad some much needed light into this dark hole of despair that this post has become.
So let's start with the good news, GW is launching 9 armies at the release of the Old World. This is a feat that GW has never done before. So, let's say GW releases new 2 heroes and 2 or 3 new units per army that would be a single army worth of singles and units. Yes, these new models are getting release with pretty good, but older, plastics and some resin and metal models. Now it is important to note that, if GW did not kill WHFB most if not all of these kits they are releasing would still be on the shelves. This is a respectable release.
Second, They are releasing ravaging hoards lists for the armies with the exception of the Dogs of War. This is good news for all of the players.
What if in six months an update states that now only 4 armies will be available at launch, and the rest will get a low-effort Legends PDF? Still nothing but relentless good news all around? How diminished does this project have to become before people are allowed to be miffed?
I’m just happy I’ll get easier access to toys to play 8th with (assuming I can still find opponents) but I 100% get the frustration of those hoping this was full-bore WHFB coming back.
Eh, this seems very half-baked and my interest has rapidly dwindled. At best, TOW will be an opportunity to buy some long unavailable kits for use in 6th Edition.
Sarouan wrote: What I'm actually bothered is that this info was not offered at Warhammer Fest preview instead of the poor 2 miniatures shown. They clearly knew already that was the plan then, they didn't because they wanted to keep having stuff for the "Warhammer Community content". It's stupid, IMHO.
I don't think GW is dumb enough to put presenters in front of eight hundred people at their largest event and have them break the good news that seven out of sixteen old armies can go suck it.
Much better to have people voice their concerns on the Internet where it's more easily dismissed and not bring the mood at the event down.
Well, when you see the armies "out" of TOW, it's true that they are those who are actually available fully in AoS. So getting models can still be doable.
Bretonnians, Tomb Kings and High Elves, obviously they are the ones who got cut the most in AoS so need the most work to put back in production, IMHO.
At least at the time right now. Something tells me that when Cities of Sigmar get out with their new range, suddenly a lot of Empire boxes will disappear as well. Maybe most of the elves and dwarves too.
As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.
And let's be honest, it's a Specialist Game we're talking about. I still have the Necromunda and Blood Bowl experiences in mind. Meaning all factions / teams were NOT released on launch, to say the least (got to play with the pdf for quite a lot of time !). Whole armies the size of old Battle ? No way in hell. Just see how they already struggle with Horus Heresy - and it's mainly copies of Space Marines.
As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.
Yes. The well-documented 'main actors' of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
Yep.
I'll give you minor renegade nobles of the Empire and Bretonnia (though really, Brets are just starting the Errantry Wars and are neck deep in reclaiming their own land from orcs). The dwarves are right over there.
O&G and Beastmen tend to show up and knock things over.
Even Khemri, I'll give them the stretch that they want things back from some period of expansion or Nagash's invasions northward.
But elves (who have long abandoned most of their colonies) and warriors of chaos, at the nadir of the winds of magic, all the way down south?
As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.
Yes. The well-documented main actors of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
Yep.
Border Princes were always the part of the Old World that was deliberately vague and "shifting" for the factions there, because that was the part where players could make "their personnal realm" for those who wanted to insert something new (and not just an army from a set region).
They litterally could be filled with anything at the time of Battle, so it's nothing new really.
kodos wrote: yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others
if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well
this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense
I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.
I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.
I'm fine with "pdf" lists (well my old school mind is as long as there's a way to have a paper version somehow, TBH) as long as they give tools enough. Actually, I may just -play- with that instead of a series of "power army books" that bring nothing really good to the game.
As for the background justification...they can always spin it the way they want since they're the creators, but still...makes sense to focus on the "main actors" of this storyline for their first wave.
Yes. The well-documented 'main actors' of the Border Princes: High elves, wood elves and chaos warriors.
Yep.
It's not like there were two relatively popular computer games set there, one featuring Empire vs. Skaven, one featuring Empire vs. Vampire Counts/Necromancers.
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
Hard to be satisfied when your three main armies (Dark Elves, Skaven, and Lizardmen) just effectively got Squatted. Yeah, I can still use them in the game for the moment, but my feelings toward TOW is rapidly becoming 'Why bother?'
Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
I don't why those players with the 1/3 of the armies in the setting that clearly just don't matter and won't be a part of this project beyond lip service rules should be be grateful and satisfied to not be involved, or even just interested in other areas of the lore and were hoping it was a return to the WHFB setting.
It's some of the armies, in one part of the setting, at one time period, with no mention of expanding it to cover the rest later on. And we've only had that clarified (but its still vague) over 3 years after it was announced, and after we saw stuff outside of what this says its going to consist of.
Paymaster Games wrote: Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
No, there is not, they said Vampire Counts are not part of the narrative™. Not 'not now' or 'until later', just 'not part'.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It's not said that they'll do the actual war, the game is set in 'the decades leading up to it' and before the rise of Asavar Kul - the Great War is something like the End Times were for a long time for classic WHFB: constantly looming on the horizon, not actually happening
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
At that point we're multiple years past the initial release, at best, if the game survives that long.
As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.
That is very nice for you, but i don't think that criticism of their confused communication and shifting focus is unwarranted.
Paymaster Games wrote: Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
Well given article after article on Bretonnia and the Empire, including politics and geography and lots and lots of maps, I was expecting that to be the focus. With supporting conflicts in the Errantry and Vampire Wars. Since orc holds and vampire fortresses were on said maps, and the vague timeline was pretty generally around the right period.
Weird, right?
I don't actually mind low support for chaos dwarfs, lizards and dark elves: they're off over there. But it doesn't work with high elves and chaos warriors as main actors in the Border Princes, because they're just as much 'off over there' as the ones getting low support. And much more so then vampires. Who are on the specifically-for-TOW maps that they've publicly shown off in their own Dev Diaries.
Paymaster Games wrote: Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.
I really don’t get making up things, like a source book, and then claiming OTHER people were not realistic. The thing you describe is quite literally not real. You made it up just now.
Paymaster Games wrote: Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.
It's not clear. If it was clear then there wouldn't be as much of a problem.
What this article tells us is that, despite us seeing Kislev, Cathay, Vampire Counts icons etc and then being talked about previously, they aren't part of it.
Not just at the start. Not just as the initial release. Not just starting small and expanding it to do the other stuff later. It outright tells us that [/i]this[i] is the scope of "The Old World" project and those other armies, aren't part of it beyond those free rules. This project has turned out to be 9 out of 15 or however many it is armies, in the Old World part of the map, at that specific time, with the rest of the setting "not part of the narrative" for the project and not even a mention of later expanding it to add those later.
We're getting just a chunk of WHFB back for something that for years has been hyped as being along the lines of a return of the setting/game itself.
While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting/time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed-out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favorite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
I don't understand why people who clearly aren't invested in a thing have to project a holier-than-thou attitude towards people who clearly are and voice their opinion on it. Doubly so when it includes implicitly defending a company that makes serious money off its customer base, especially one with predatory and consumer-unfriendly business practices such as Games Workshop.
On top of that, this behavior is t is all the worse when it comes from a semi-public personality in a given community such as yourself. Even if you don't care how/if it affects your brand/image, it is very ungentlemanly.
The fact that many people complain simply means many people care, and most of the criticism I found online hasn't been unreasonable. The vast majority of GW's "dev diary" so far has been the exact opposite of how a marketing campaign should be led, even a slow-burning, long-winded one. In addition to previous gems such as "Remember kids, the End Times totally happened and the setting is still dead as a doornail" (GW should've left that one out and simply continued supporting AoS as its main game and ToW as its secondary, as it will anyway), today's "update" follows suite.
The biggest gripe I have with it is the wording. The current wording makes it so that the factions left ould will never get anything aside from the free rules at the beginning. Instead, they should have written that the listed factions will be the focus of the FIRST campaign book/chapter/stage of the project/whatever.
And if the project fails before reaching the implied second/third/whichever stage, everyone still invested in it will be disappointed anyway, so it makes zero sense to disinterest a portion of your target demographic in advance. Especially since vamps/dark elves/lizardmen/ogres have fully functional ranges still sold across existing AoS armies.
Looks like GW has finally come up with a plan rather than hype to hold attention/string along their remaining market share.
IMO, of course.
Having played Chaos Warriors/Slaves to Darkness at the beginning of AoS; I can say that playing a legacy army in a GW game sucks.
Slowly feeling your army get comparitively less powerful and left behind is a great recipe for salt.
Paymaster Games wrote: While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.
You can keep digging the hole deeper if you want. The bottom line is there is no evidence whatsoever for the things you said. In fact the article today emphasizes the “core factions” (which suddenly doesn’t include the first army they told us was a big deal, go look at the past articles) will also be the focus of supplements.
Saying that other people had unrealistic expectations, and supporting that premise with straight up daydreams, is wild.
Also, GW seems to have removed the "good" and "evil" labels from its list of factions, so it's a good thing they're listening to their target audience to an extent at least.
Which also makes voicing criticism of all kinds all the more important.
kodos wrote: yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others
if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well
this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense
I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.
I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.
what else than being lazy hinders them to write those stories so that Dark Elves fit too?
if it is only because of stories that are written that we, in a setting that does not has any stories by now, "fluff" is a lazy excuse and nothing more
models being sold in AoS and GW wants to keep them apart is a reason, "some armies don't fit the fluff that is not yet written" is an ecuse
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Paymaster Games wrote: The armies not getting army books are getting Ravaging Hoards lists. You army is not getting Squatted.
you know why Bretonnia was one of the factions that hardly anyone played?
because they had only their Ravening Hordes List for years, so players who played the game back than know what it means if their armies only get a pdf with no future support
I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
kodos wrote: yeah hence why it makes no sense to cut some faction from it but not others
if High Elves and Wood Elves can be there because of the background, Dark Elves and Skaven can as well
this is just a lazy excuse and not some specific setting were not having them makes any sense
I don't agree with that. To me, books of the first wave don't necessarily mean army books. Campaign books are also a possibility - and campaigns are best with a set story and setting. And a story isn't especially better if you involve too many actors in it.
I don't especially think it's "lazy". It's more the way they communicate I'm most critic of, not the setting they choose to focus on.
what else than being lazy hinders them to write those stories so that Dark Elves fit too?
if it is only because of stories that are written that we, in a setting that does not has any stories by now, "fluff" is a lazy excuse and nothing more
models being sold in AoS and GW wants to keep them apart is a reason, "some armies don't fit the fluff that is not yet written" is an ecuse
It seems like it is important to them to separate AOS and TOW as much as possible, by not doing rules for most AOS units, and by not supporting many armies that have a current AOS line. As to why it is important to them, we can only speculate, but it seems to be the case.
Paymaster Games wrote: While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.
They previously said that. Now they are saying this is what the scope of the project for the game actually is.
They outright say Vampire Counts, Skaven etc aren't part of the narrative for "The Old World". Not just at the start or this first thing, the game itself.
I am a bit confused will they still be releasing the old miniatures not on the list and just not doing new rules or miniatures or not releasing the models either?
nightwolf2040 wrote: I am a bit confused will they still be releasing the old miniatures not on the list and just not doing new rules or miniatures or not releasing the models either?
That is open to interpretation, but seeing how they mention new and returning kits for the 'Core factions' but say nothing about miniatures for the others, except that 'they will receive rules ... for the players that have these on their shelf' i'd interpret that as a no. A lot of kits can be straight taken or at least proxied by AOS miniatures though, if the currently-sold AOS kit is not the old WHFB kit anyway.
1. It's referencing 8th ed armies and factions. Nothing can be taken out of it for Kislev/Cathay.
2. It's feels like they're going to be focussing on story driven content.
3. The story is the lead up to and the big war with chaos.
4. In this context the game "starts" at the border princes and moves forward from there. High Elves make sense because they literally come over and help during this time.
5. Bretonnia and Tomb Kings are included mostly because they can be their own narrative story. Tomb Kings also decently represent barrows in the borderlands and Bretonnia have errant knights running all over.
6. The current armies all have a fairly tight narrative with each other (outside of the previously mentioned Tomb Kings).
7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.
I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.
They've done a great job with Heresy. Maybe we give them a little leeway with this?
7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.
I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
yeah, first wave are the border princess and the last wave being siege of praag
and the non listed faction are left out because they did not play a role in that 100 years the narrative game covers
not the first wave is war against chaos with 9 factions and the other factions will be done in the next wave
nothing in the article writes anything like that
it is the 9 factions and the first wave is border princess narrative books
In a different part of the article. The part about factions not being part of the game is separate and in no way says these only won’t be part of the initial wave. It says, and this is a literal quote “not part of the narrative we’re telling with the Old World.”
kodos wrote: yeah, first wave are the border princess and the last wave being siege of praag
and the non listed faction are left out because they did not play a role in that 100 years the narrative game covers
not the first wave is war against chaos with 9 factions and the other factions will be done in the next wave
nothing in the article writes anything like that
it is the 9 factions and the first wave is border princess narrative books
This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release.
7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.
I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
It literally does though…
This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.
…
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes
…
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.
Emphasis mine.
It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:
The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
…
When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.
Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).
Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.
Paymaster Games wrote: This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release.
Why?
I mean if its narrative led, we don't need to get to Praag until the end of things.
I think this could well be like "Horus Heresy I", "Horus Heresy II", "Horus Heresy III" etc.
They've planned out say the first 2-3 books and it will cover era-valid army lists for the 9 factions. Everyone outside can get stuffed.
That sounds silly - but then Xenos could have easily been brought into HH but they never did because they didn't want to.
We might not see Kislev until "TOW: Siege of Praag" coming to a store near you circa 2030.
7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.
I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
It literally does though…
This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.
…
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes
…
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.
Emphasis mine.
It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:
The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
…
When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.
Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).
Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.
No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.
It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.
Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.
Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.
Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?
Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?
Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change
It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it.
The clarity, at long last, is refreshing in terms of what factions will be 'playable' and what factions won't be present narratively and likely therefore wont get any model support.
We can finally put a few things to bed in that regard at least.
7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.
I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
It literally does though…
This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.
…
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes
…
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.
Emphasis mine.
It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:
The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
…
When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.
Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).
Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.
No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.
It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.
Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.
Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.
Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.
I think you’re reading into it too much. Even back at the Cathay teases it implied waves, saying they would be there eventually but not on release.
On the last point, they’ve said previously that the aim is to work up to Asavar Kul’s invasion. So IMO an explicit statement of ‘these races are connected to Asavar Kul’s invasion’ is definitely a hint they may show up later.
Tyel wrote:
Paymaster Games wrote: This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release.
Why?
I mean if its narrative led, we don't need to get to Praag until the end of things.
I think this could well be like "Horus Heresy I", "Horus Heresy II", "Horus Heresy III" etc.
They've planned out say the first 2-3 books and it will cover era-valid army lists for the 9 factions. Everyone outside can get stuffed.
That sounds silly - but then Xenos could have easily been brought into HH but they never did because they didn't want to.
We might not see Kislev until "TOW: Siege of Praag" coming to a store near you circa 2030.
IMO different waves will probably be different theatres and times within the window.
So perhaps 1-2 years for this initial release ‘welcome back to TOW and all the ranges we previously chopped’
Next phase probably something further north with Kislev.
Then probably Cathay’s Northern border (like TW:WH3’s RoC map’s Cathay section). Maybe Ogres and/or Chaos Dwarfs will come back here?
Then a different vignette- maybe something else new.
BertBert wrote: I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.
Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?
Also worth remembering that the Wood Elves also have have a major presence in the actual Empire in Laurelorn Forest where there is even a proper city - Tor Lithanel. The Eonir even march on on Salzenmund in 2168 IC, besieging it until the Baron begs for forgiveness.
7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.
I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
It literally does though…
This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.
…
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes
…
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.
Emphasis mine.
It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:
The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
…
When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.
Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).
Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.
No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.
It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.
Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.
Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.
Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.
saying they would be there eventually but not on release.
On the last point, they’ve said previously that the aim is to work up to Asavar Kul’s invasion.
A quote for either of those things would be helpful. I don't remember either of those being stated.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?
Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change
It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it.
It’s hard to discuss with folks when we are now discounting the actual words that were written.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’ll bet $5 this won’t get more than one real wave. At least not by 2025.
Why do you assume that this is DOA?
It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place. The first wave will apparently consist of old plastics that weren’t selling in 2010 prices and halfhearted Forgeworld resins. The rules will doubtlessly be divisive, unless they are universally considered awful. Whoever is marketing TOW is fudging up royal. Upper management is regaining its reputation for unreasonable expectations and demands. Each year sees less expendable income for 90% of the market. Put it all together, and this looks like a turkey.
Will confess that due to the sheer length of time and infrequency of updates, I had forgot all about the previous previews of the Kislev stuff. Now I think of it, they split the community into two camps. Those who found them a bit too AoS, and those who thought they were fine.
I wonder if the reaction is what has made GW shelf them, and instead focus more on this game being a soft reboot of WFB as it stood (miniature wise) at the end of 8th? There does seem to be a marked difference in the updates, with the more recent ones feeling a lot more like the old WFB we knew and loved, and less a new take on WFB. Either way, the news that we are getting 9 full factions at launch, and 7 legacy factions pdf's from day one.
The only factions that won't be playable seem to be Chaos Daemons (which they explain why), Dogs of War, and Kislev... who may or may not be in the Empire of Man list.
What I am interested in knowing is whether the Empire of Man list is going to reflect the old Empire from 5th edition, which could take Ogres, Dwarfs, and Halflings. Or be more like the 6th edition and onwards, which was purely Men. I bet the name is a clue to the direction the design team are going, just would be nice to see the Empire being the Empire I remember from my youth.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place.
I haven't seen any "walking back all the promises". I have seen a lot of people being upset that the assumptions they themselves made and have presented as "things that were said" aren't present in the actual things GW have said about it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place.
I haven't seen any "walking back all the promises". I have seen a lot of people being upset that the assumptions they themselves made and have presented as "things that were said" aren't present in the actual things GW have said about it.
Kislev and Cathay weren’t promises? Also, who is to blame for so many having “ideas” about what is promised? GW, with their crappy communication. Giving mixed signals and then blaming the customers for their confusion is not a winning strategy. Nor does a product that requires a community to thrive build a community with toxic defenders blaming everyone trying to engage with the product for misunderstanding communiques that were vague at best.
I'd still lay money on Old World ending up as little more than a MtO service for some older kits and a handful of crummy resin characters. Judging by how the more niche Specialist Games have been going, and with such a flimsy idea of what it even *is*, it'll die off almost as soon as it starts - when did you last see a major release for Titanicus? Can you even still *buy* Aeronautica? And those are the best case examples of ToW's future.
Old World has been vaporware from the start. There's nothing of the game to show after some four years, and it's about a decade too late for anyone with any sense to still care. Better rank and file games (like Kings of War, a likely catalyst for ToW's announcement) exist, as do eight different versions of WHFB that are timecapsuled forever. Who in their right mind would pay GW's prices for the barely-existant ToW when those alternatives already exist, accomodating all of your armies rather than an arbitrary nine? Who on earth is trusting GW with anything WHFB related ever again after seeing how shoddily they handle it, both in 2015 and clearly ever since? Don't fall for GW's half-arsed attempt to string people along and sell you the ashes of the Fantasy they burned.
They made their Age of Steaming Goat-Soil bed, they can go and lie in it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When Total War Warhammer came out there was a promise that we'd eventually get everyone. Took a while, but they showed up.
Didn't abandon the game because Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms weren't available right away.
The messaging there was a lot more clear.
I'm really not sure at this point whether Kislev/Cathay are coming alongside the old lines being resurrected, whether they're coming at some point in the future, or if they're not currently planned at all.
MalusCalibur wrote: Judging by how the more niche Specialist Games have been going, and with such a flimsy idea of what it even *is*, it'll die off almost as soon as it starts - when did you last see a major release for Titanicus? Can you even still *buy* Aeronautica? And those are the best case examples of ToW's future.
- Necromunda (N17) saw significant releases in 2022 with the massive Ash Wastes box set, Nomads gang, Ridgehauler and vehicle upgrades for three gangs, Squats in plastic for the first time since... they were squatted.
- Aeronautica saw a campaign book, the Custodes aircraft, Aeldari Wraithfighters and Interceptors (both in plastic), and the Necron fliers.
- Titanicus (AT18) did have a smaller release with the Dire Wolf, and some weapon upgrades but it was still something.
Yep, these games obviously died off as soon as they started (which is why they still have new stuff being released four or five years later).
All they had to say in this announcement about factions is:
'The two factions we've discussed heavily in our TOW coverage, Kislev and Cathay, will be showing up full steam in the near future after we cover all the existing ones.'
Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Hellebore wrote: Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.
Hellebore wrote: Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.
So, GW could discuss them for the Old World because both were releasing (though not for the Old World any time soon considering those posts were from 20 and 21). Now that they have released in total war, GW cannot discuss them any longer for the Old World. Can't even say, Kislev and Cathay are coming soon, coming later, or coming tomorrow. Right got it. Great explanation.
Hellebore wrote: Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.
Right, but... it now looks like there's no cross promotion at all. If Kislev and Cathay ever do happen, it will be years after TW3 came out. Possibly even after it stops getting content. IF they happen.
[quote=PaymasterThis article was really about which existing factions were being brought into the Old World and not about the new ones due to come out in the future.
Right, because:
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements
The planned expansions and supplements (which in GW-speak is usually books) will focus on the same 9 armies.
Further..
The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag.
Last I checked, Cathay is beyond those very specific borders. Chaos Dwarfs are beyond those borders. Lizardmen, Dark elves, etc. High elves too, but they apparently don't count, because they maybe havean embassy in Marienburg and sometimes talk to the wood elves in this period. There's an extensive campaign (20+ years) against Morghur the Shadowgave in the century leading up to the Siege of Praag, and the high elves help a bit. In fact its one of many things going on in this period (like the Errantry Wars) that are centered in Athel Loren and Bretonnia itself and give them all very solid lore reasons not to be faffing about in the Border Princes...
Paymaster Games wrote: Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
The article literally says that the GAME - not the "first wave" or the "initial narrative", but the *whole thing* - is set AFTER the Vampire Wars and BEFORE the Great War and Siege of Praag (the article literally emphasizes that point on 3 separate occasions), and that the Vampire Counts, amongst others "are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World". You couldn't ask for a more clear cut and straight forward statement that something won't be done if you begged. GW didn't put out a whole ass article explaining what the scope of the game is and incite nerd rage in the process only to do the exact thing they said they wouldn't do a few months later. Let's not continue to shift goalposts and spin TOW into something that it clearly isn't and continue to give people false expectations, let's take GW at their literal fething word and understand that when they say these factions won't see support in the game, they mean it - at least as far as the next 5-10 years are concerned, k?
As far as Kislev is concerned, they don't need to do the Great War and Siege of Praag to insert them into the game. There's plenty of other narrative for them to be involved in. As for "other regions"... we know we're getting Cathay, but there were various fluff hints over the years voa TWW3 development that the forces of Cathay may be narratively coming to the Old World (as in the continent) rather than the other way around. The article is clear that THE GAME is set "firmly" on the Old World continent, bounded "between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east". Again you couldn't ask for a more clear cut definition of what the scope of the product is. They aren't saying this is the "initial narrative" or "the first wave", they are saying this is the whole thing. They even make it a point to say that certain factions are excludes because they are physically too far away to be involved.
Paymaster Games wrote: Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.
It's not clear. If it was clear then there wouldn't be as much of a problem.
What this article tells us is that, despite us seeing Kislev, Cathay, Vampire Counts icons etc and then being talked about previously, they aren't part of it.
Not just at the start. Not just as the initial release. Not just starting small and expanding it to do the other stuff later. It outright tells us that [/i]this is the scope of "The Old World" project and those other armies, aren't part of it beyond those free rules. This project has turned out to be 9 out of 15 or however many it is armies, in the Old World part of the map, at that specific time, with the rest of the setting "not part of the narrative" for the project and not even a mention of later expanding it to add those later.
We're getting just a chunk of WHFB back for something that for years has been hyped as being along the lines of a return of the setting/game itself.
OK, hold up. The article is explicit about what *isnt* coming to the game, BUT that does not mean that things not on the list are also excluded. The article defines the 9 factions known to be in it as the "Core" factions, which implies the existence of non-core factions.These are the main characters in the story and will be the focus of development of the game, in much the same way that 18 Spave Marine legions are the Core factions and main focus of the Horis Heresy - but that doesn't preclude Mechanicum or Custodes from existing, it just means they don't get as much attention and development as the Space Marine legions. We know we are getting Kislev and Cathay, but they are likely to be one-off releases with limited further support and development beyond their initial release. The 9 core factions can be reasonably expected to see regular updates throughout the life of the project - Kislev might see support through a hypothetical "troll invasion" narrative arc, but then when the narrative moves to the "war of three peninsulas" between Bretonnia, Tilea, and Estalia they won't get any more updates and instead you might see Estalian and Tilean armies and a return of Dogs of War.
In short, the correct interpretation of the article is - if it's one of the 9 "Core" factions, they definitely will be in the game, if it's one of the other factions listed it definitely won't be in the game, if it's not mentioned at all - then it could reasonably exist.
ALSO. It's probably worth mentioning that the exclusion of Vampire Counts or Skaven or whatever doesn't fully exclude related concepts from the game. "Vampire Counts" might not be present, but "the Vampiric Host of Mousillon" or "Zombie Pirates of the Vampire Coast" (for example, not sure if they fit timeline/setting, just illustrating the idea of things that are not Vampire Counts but VC-like if you squint" can be, as they aren't technically traditional "Vampire Counts" armies like we may remember from WHFB and may have different aesthetics and themes, while still being VC adjacent.
Paymaster Games wrote: While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.
No, the article says these armies are outside the scope of *THE GAME* - very literally and exactly so. Nothing there about "at time of release" - you are literally making up and inserting that qualifier yourself where it dies not otherwise exist.
And you are right, GW did say Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the game - and this article is consistent with that. Vampires are getting a pdf army list, they are in the game, GW has met the obligation of what they told us they would do (if you go back and look at those past statements you'll actually find them to be consistent with that BTW, they were clear that they would be playable, they didn't really say how or to what extent). Likewise Kislev isn't mentioned in the article at all, which is effectively admission via omission. Unfortunately, your stance otherwise is making stuff up and reading in statements that either don't exist or run directly contrary to explicit statements made. Reading is fundamental, as they say.
You should go read the article again, as in the whole damn thing, and pay very close attention to the wording. It does say that the first wave is narratively focused on the Border Princes, but it does not say that the excluded armies are only out for "the first wave". Instead it says they do not fit the location nor timeline of "THE GAME". Clear as glass. They even go on to explain in pretty deep detail how these factions are all in hiding, nonexistent, or too far away and uninterested in events occurring within the very strictly defined geographic area of THE GAME within the x-hundred year narrative period that THE GAME is set in.
It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:
The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
…
When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.
Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).
If I told you "this thing is set before this major event", why would you assume that the event is in scope for that thing? They tell you that the game is set in the period BEFORE the Great War and the Siege of Praag no less than 3 separate times in that article. That means the narrative, as far as the game is concerned, will *never* get to the point where Asavar Kul rises, because the narrative scope of the game ends before that occurs.
Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.
The article explicitly states that the new stuff released for these factions in AoS will not be given rules in The Old World, so that kind if pokes a hole in your argument, doesn't it?
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the [i]game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?
Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change
It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it.
It’s hard to discuss with folks when we are now discounting the actual words that were written.
Amen, the copium and denialism is strong with some of these guys. That being said, a few are doing the same by assuming this article precludes Kislev and Cathay - it doesn't.
Hulksmash wrote: People said similar stuff about necromunda and only 4 initial gangs came out. Same with titanicus and just 2 titan frames.
The only "sub" game that might not have performed to expectations is aeronautica but even that has had a ton of expansions and models.
People need to breathe a bit. GW has a really solid track record with their games and support now.
In the case of both Necromunda and Titanicus GW never made any claim that those games would be limited to just the things you indicated. In fact if you go far enough back you find explicit statements and teases that *more* was going to come, and *no* explicit statements about things that are currently included in those games being excluded. Aeronautical Imperialis is the same, they told us how many factions they had planned for release into the game, and to date their releases have remained consistent with that statement. Until they add Chaos or tyranids (or any other factions currently without minis and rules) they are consistent with what they communicated - although even then they qualified the faction count was what they had planned "currently", implying the possibility of more later. No such qualifications exists here.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When Total War Warhammer came out there was a promise that we'd eventually get everyone. Took a while, but they showed up.
Didn't abandon the game because Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms weren't available right away.
Where do you see the promise that The Old World will also eventually see support for everyone? This article is basically the opposite of that - you'll get your pdf so you can play, but that's the extent of the support those factions will be getting, with essentially a promise that those factions will not be touched again because they aren't the Old World enough for this specific time and place in the Old World.
Hellebore wrote: All they had to say in this announcement about factions is:
'The two factions we've discussed heavily in our TOW coverage, Kislev and Cathay, will be showing up full steam in the near future after we cover all the existing ones.'
Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Because they aren't entirely relevant to the subject of the article, which is the core factions of the game which will see primary and continued support, as well as the status of the other old WHFB factions, which Cathay never was and Kislev only kind of vaguely was at one small point in the games past. Also as we learned at Warhammer Fest they are not part of the initial release of the game, but presumably will make their way in sometime later. "Admission by ommission" - they aren't mentioned, doesn't mean they aren't included, they just aren't "core" and not part of the initial release, thus they will need to wait until their part in the narrative becomes rrelevant. No sense really bringing them up when they are still in development and probably months or years behind the games launch.
I kind of err on the side that suggests a more limited set of old world powers for the game, potentially expanding into *new* factions like Kislev and Cathay. (and maybe one day my beloved Tilea. *cough*fat chance*cough*)
My reasoning for this is that the article states that they aren't looking to release rules for age of sigmar stuff, so that would *seem* to put a big X over some of the new lizardman stuff... maybe?
Voss wrote: Right, but... it now looks like there's no cross promotion at all.
Well of course not. GW never misses and opportunity to miss an opportunity, and the opportunities they miss the most often are cross-promotional activities (hence why I said a "rare" example of cross-promotion). The fact that they've managed to let TWW1, 2 and 3 come out with nary a tie-in miniature or campaign is testament to how bad they are at this.
Voss wrote: If Kislev and Cathay ever do happen, it will be years after TW3 came out. Possibly even after it stops getting content. IF they happen.
"If they happen". Where's this doom and gloom coming from. Why are you immediately assuming that this whole project is DoA?
Voss wrote: Where do you see the promise that The Old World will also eventually see support for everyone? This article is basically the opposite of that - you'll get your pdf so you can play, but that's the extent of the support those factions will be getting, with essentially a promise that those factions will not be touched again because they aren't the Old World enough for this specific time and place in the Old World.
Assuming that all The Old World is, and that it will never expand ever. They're about to release a whole new range of Lizardmen in a week's time. You think there isn't a place in the future for Lizardmen to "invade" the old world, or for a "Rumble in the Jungle" expansion for TOW that includes Lizzies, some Skaven, Empire colinists and, hell, Dark Elves coming down south from Naggaroth?
Again, why the assumption that this is all there is, and that it's doomed to failure?
caladancid wrote: Now that they have released in total war, GW cannot discuss them any longer for the Old World.
Whoever said that they can't discuss it?
caladancid wrote: Can't even say, Kislev and Cathay are coming soon, coming later, or coming tomorrow.
While they don’t mention excluding Kislev and Cathay, they conspicuously left them out of the factions included as well. My $5 is on GW quietly dropping them (or pushing them back beyond 2025 at the earliest) and not explicitly dropping them in the hopes of avoiding backlash.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: While they don’t mention excluding Kislev and Cathay, they conspicuously left them out of the factions included as well.
They included those that had rules prior to them killing WFB. Kislev didn't have much, and Cathay had nothing. They're hardly about to say that they'll put put PDFs for Cathay when TOW drops... Cathay don't have miniatures!!!
Since then we know they've written army books for both (or at least Cathay) because they weren't going to let CA define what Cathay was, so did it themselves. Given the geographical focus of TOW, is it any wonder Cathay isn't involved at this stage?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My $5 is on GW quietly dropping them (or pushing them back beyond 2025 at the earliest) and not explicitly dropping them in the hopes of avoiding backlash.
Sweet Asuryan, the negativity and hyperbole of some of you...
Gimgamgoo wrote:So no Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms?
That's zapped all interest I had in the rebirth of the game. I'll stick with KoW, although I may look into some of the orc models if anything from the old style is released.
I suppose that's my 2nd goodbye to the Old World.
Literally playable in the game. Though if you want to rage quit before it even starts because you aren't getting a hard back, then I guess the rest of the player base dodged a bullet...
Vulcan wrote:
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
Hard to be satisfied when your three main armies (Dark Elves, Skaven, and Lizardmen) just effectively got Squatted. Yeah, I can still use them in the game for the moment, but my feelings toward TOW is rapidly becoming 'Why bother?'
Having rules isn't "squatted". Christ...
H.B.M.C. wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’ll bet $5 this won’t get more than one real wave. At least not by 2025.
Why do you assume that this is DOA?
Because it has to be. Ever since this was announced this HAD to be a failure. The same people who were on here assuring us that squares weren't coming back, that this was simply going to be AOS Apocalypse style, that this was going to be Warmaster rereleased, and every other nonsense thing that essentially screamed "Play AOS because we're piss scared that we're about to lose a massive chunk of our player base!!!!" are the same people who are continuing to gak talk everything about this project the second it's announced.
As far as the factions getting a Ravening Hordes "get you by " pdf? Here's a thought that apparently nobody considered...
Warhammer: Lustria
A second set of releases later down the line which delves into the Skaven/Lizardmen battles as well as the Vampire Coast AND the Dark Elf raids at the time. Someone who gives far more of a gak about the lore can even look up and see where The Fall of Chaqua fits into this timeframe.
A news setting/expansion that features the armies that are not yet covered, of course this is possible
Problem is rather "when", as does not help to tell people their proper army book is 5+ years after release
and saying that pdf rules are enough when the core has army books?
Compare this to still need to use the 8th Index to play your army in 10th 40k, because having rules is enough and it is playable
And were are now all the people talking about Warhammer Fantasy was not worth keeping and needed to be replaced?
GW is picking the game up were they left it, so if it was not worth playing and a dead game back in 8th, why should the very same game now be different?
Why should it now not be DOA with the very same strategy that killed it?
Why should people now buy models that did not sell back than because they were just bad?
the only reason I can think if is because fanboys are going to spend a 1000€ per army, praising the 30 year old models being still better than everything and the rules the best ever seen without ever opening the boxes and playing the game
Automatically Appended Next Post: For the release/announcement
Looking at it again it very much feels now that it was cut down because they got a new deadline to bring the game back until the end of the year and this is the best they can do combined with not being allowed to use anything that is still in AoS (like they needed to wait for the Dawnbringer in AoS to be able to get Empire back to TOW)
Hence we see High Elves because there a new ones in AoS, Wood Elves because only the Spirits made it (and we don't get those in TOW -> old metal treeman instead of the new plastic one) but not Skaven because their old models are still the core of the AoS faction
My guess is we see the same as with Necromunda, a cut down release to get something this year, narrative books with armies to cover the next year, a proper core rulebook after that and army books following
and depending on how well this goes and if they get replaced /new models in AoS the next wave of narrative books followed by army books of the other armies
The link didn't say that the "outer" races weren't part of the game. It said that they weren't part of the narrative.
I read this to mean that the primary focus will be on the nine races interacting with each other. But you can still get the others appearing from time to time. Druchii, for instance, can show up anywhere and at any time due to raiding - either something aimed explicitly at the high elves (who, we're told, maintain outposts along the coasts), or a slave grab that's particularly prominent for some reason (maybe it delayed Empire troops needed for a campaign; or the locals mistakenly thought the raiders were High Elves from a nearby outpost, and a punitive expedition was launched). The core nine are going to get the most updates - at least initially (which will be an unusual situation for the Tomb Kings, to say the least). But I would be very surprised if the others didn't periodically make cameo appearances in the on-going narrative, with accompanying army lists for the armies showing up in those specific events.
For that matter, if the narrative ever reaches Praag, then the Dark Elves pretty much *must* show up at that point, since they launch a massive invasion of Ulthuan at the same time that the forces of Chaos are attacking the Empire.
Also, just throwing this out there with no supporting evidence whatsoever, but Malerion is still missing from AoS (add him to the game already!). It wouldn't surprise me if there's a desire to avoid doing too much with the TOW Dark Elves until after Malerion and his elves are (finally) added to AoS, assuming that GW hasn't decided to postpone that indefinitely.
I do find it very bizarre that out of the armies they have decided to focus on, daemons isn't one of them. Baring bringing back perhaps a handful of kits, you have most of of the range available in plastic already. They just need an army book and some unit trays. GW then have a set of plastic minis that require singular area of shelf space but lets people buy further into not one, but THREE main range games. Not to mention side games like AoS Skirmish, Mordheim, Kill team etc. (I didn't count 30k, as I'm not actually sure if they use the daemons in that, but maybe its FOUR main range games!)
Sure, they make a lot of money selling people multiple armies for each of the games. But even if someone is only buying that one single force, they now have them in the position to have them drop a bit of cash every year for every main game update at a minimum.
The narrative that the PDF only forces have been given is baffling to me. Clear communication from GW would have gone a long way again, a simple '16 Armies was too much for our team to release at once so we decided to focus on these for now' would have been clearer than 'These armies don't fit the old world narrative'. Honestly the 'narrative' has been pushed to fit the releases more like. Tomb Kings make the narrative, but DE are not currently raiding Bretonnia? VC are flat out asleep and refuse to pop out to the empire for fast food runs?
I'm just going to treat this as the biggest fantasy made to order they have done. I (personally) don't see the point in fully supporting a game on the off-chance that they *might* release model ranges or battletomes for the missing forces at a later date 'if the game does well' (The communities words, not GWs). If other GW releases are anything to go by, we'll only have a 5 minute window to buy stuff on preorder day anyway. I've already dropped keeping up with AoS as I got sick of the FOMO sales. I will thank GW for flooding the market with more of the old kits helping lower the 2nd hand price on them.
Tsagualsa wrote: It's not said that they'll do the actual war, the game is set in 'the decades leading up to it' and before the rise of Asavar Kul - the Great War is something like the End Times were for a long time for classic WHFB: constantly looming on the horizon, not actually happening
That was not the impression I got. It felt more like The Great War Against Chaos is like The Siege of Terra: It's coming eventually, but that's the end game of this particular historical era.
I can't imagine they'll pass up the opportunity to make a Magnus the Primarch Pious model for the game.
Kislev was only ever part of the Empire and not there in 8th, so we don't know yet if those units are covered or not, same with Daemons as part of Chaos Warriors (rather than the stand alone army)
the stand alone list was part of a campaign removed by the End Times, and it is important for GW that the End Times are real and the older releases are not
Chaos Dwarfs fit as GW clearly stated that all armies/models that were there in 8th will be playable with TOW = CD are in, Kislev is out (and FW being something standalone that has nothing to do with GW and is not official anyway was an outdated view already back than and mainly pushed by some ETC players as they wanted to reduce the numbers of armies for that event)
Tsagualsa wrote: It's not said that they'll do the actual war, the game is set in 'the decades leading up to it' and before the rise of Asavar Kul - the Great War is something like the End Times were for a long time for classic WHFB: constantly looming on the horizon, not actually happening
That was not the impression I got. It felt more like The Great War Against Chaos is like The Siege of Terra: It's coming eventually, but that's the end game of this particular historical era.
I can't imagine they'll pass up the opportunity to make a Magnus the Primarch Pious model for the game.
well, HH did not start with the Siege of Terra and an Emperor model either, and still don't have one
Eumerin wrote: The link didn't say that the "outer" races weren't part of the game. It said that they weren't part of the narrative.
I read this to mean that the primary focus will be on the nine races interacting with each other. But you can still get the others appearing from time to time. Druchii, for instance, can show up anywhere and at any time due to raiding - either something aimed explicitly at the high elves (who, we're told, maintain outposts along the coasts), or a slave grab that's particularly prominent for some reason (maybe it delayed Empire troops needed for a campaign; or the locals mistakenly thought the raiders were High Elves from a nearby outpost, and a punitive expedition was launched). The core nine are going to get the most updates - at least initially (which will be an unusual situation for the Tomb Kings, to say the least). But I would be very surprised if the others didn't periodically make cameo appearances in the on-going narrative, with accompanying army lists for the armies showing up in those specific events.
For that matter, if the narrative ever reaches Praag, then the Dark Elves pretty much *must* show up at that point, since they launch a massive invasion of Ulthuan at the same time that the forces of Chaos are attacking the Empire.
Also, just throwing this out there with no supporting evidence whatsoever, but Malerion is still missing from AoS (add him to the game already!). It wouldn't surprise me if there's a desire to avoid doing too much with the TOW Dark Elves until after Malerion and his elves are (finally) added to AoS, assuming that GW hasn't decided to postpone that indefinitely.
When they say a faction is "not part of of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World", they are literally telling you that it's not part of the game. The Old World is a game, the game will be expanded through narrative, if something is not part of the narrative it will not be expanded upon and therefore will not be part of the game.
They give a clear explanation as to why the Dark Elves are not in the game, presumably the Dark Elves don't launch any raids into the Ild Workd during the time frame of the games setting and are looking inward.
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My take is that the narrative will never get to the Siege of Praag (article us clear on three separate occasions that the setting is the decades BEFORE this event, not "before and DURING", but if they did the fact that thr Dark Elves attacked Ulthusn at the same time does not mean they have to include them. These are two separate events with no direct interdependency between them, it's not like the Dark Elf armies are parked right outside the gates to the city.
well, HH did not start with the Siege of Terra and an Emperor model either, and still don't have one
Yep, and the games been around for what 10-15 years?
Likewise they told us from the getgo that the game was about the Imperial Civil War and that xenos were not Germaine to the narrative of the Horis Heresy... look at that, no xenos rules either.
Eumerin wrote: The link didn't say that the "outer" races weren't part of the game. It said that they weren't part of the narrative.
I read this to mean that the primary focus will be on the nine races interacting with each other. But you can still get the others appearing from time to time. Druchii, for instance, can show up anywhere and at any time due to raiding - either something aimed explicitly at the high elves (who, we're told, maintain outposts along the coasts), or a slave grab that's particularly prominent for some reason (maybe it delayed Empire troops needed for a campaign; or the locals mistakenly thought the raiders were High Elves from a nearby outpost, and a punitive expedition was launched). The core nine are going to get the most updates - at least initially (which will be an unusual situation for the Tomb Kings, to say the least). But I would be very surprised if the others didn't periodically make cameo appearances in the on-going narrative, with accompanying army lists for the armies showing up in those specific events.
For that matter, if the narrative ever reaches Praag, then the Dark Elves pretty much *must* show up at that point, since they launch a massive invasion of Ulthuan at the same time that the forces of Chaos are attacking the Empire.
Also, just throwing this out there with no supporting evidence whatsoever, but Malerion is still missing from AoS (add him to the game already!). It wouldn't surprise me if there's a desire to avoid doing too much with the TOW Dark Elves until after Malerion and his elves are (finally) added to AoS, assuming that GW hasn't decided to postpone that indefinitely.
It says that are not part of the narrative for The Old World - as in, the game itself. When they say that those other armies aren't a part of this project beyond the free rules they're handing out just because people have those miniatures on their shelves, and they are not something being actively considered as part of this game, then taking that to mean they'll still show up and still get things is just odd. They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Heh. They updated the faction listing. Funny.
BertBert wrote: I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.
Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?
It makes sense geographically, but my point was rather that WEs are a fairly niche faction I wouldn't have expected to be in the focus right away. If we are going purely by geographics, High Elves have no business being part of the narrative outside of small trading settlements and Elftown in Marienburg, so GW's reasoning behind the inclusion and exclusion of factions in not that simple. I'm sure it's a mix of what they can justify in lore and whatever miniature ranges they deem most attractive or lucrative.
James12345 wrote: Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?
Honestly, no idea. The new ones are basically impossible to rank up, even with bigger bases, and the old ones are a very popular classic kit. Marauders do not have that problem. It's feasible that the new Warriors can be used for e.g. Chosen in the context of TOW, and the classic kit gets re-released. But it's also possible that they double down on their 'the power of Chaos is at an all-time low' and shift Warriors to Elite or 1 per army and have the main body be formed by Marauders.
The new Chaos Knights and Chosen both come with Stormcast heads as trophies, and as I understand it they are sculpted onto components without alternative options included.
So that leaves 4 strong options:
A. Expect players to take a hobby knife to their new Chaos kits and carve the trophies away.
B. 1 in 5 Chaos Champions has apparently killed a metal wizard in personal combat.
C. Provide the old kits.
D. Never, ever mention it or visibly include the trophies in TOW media.
Personally I'm thinking D, with some players choosing to deal with A.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Heh. They updated the faction listing. Funny.
BertBert wrote: I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.
Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?
It makes sense geographically, but my point was rather that WEs are a fairly niche faction I wouldn't have expected to be in the focus right away. If we are going purely by geographics, High Elves have no business being part of the narrative outside of small trading settlements and Elftown in Marienburg, so GW's reasoning behind the inclusion and exclusion of factions in not that simple. I'm sure it's a mix of what they can justify in lore and whatever miniature ranges they deem most attractive or lucrative.
It's Tolkienesque Fantasy. Humans, Orcs, Dwarves, and both Rivendell and Lothlorien Elves were always pretty near guarantees to be included.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Heh. They updated the faction listing. Funny.
BertBert wrote: I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.
Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?
It makes sense geographically, but my point was rather that WEs are a fairly niche faction I wouldn't have expected to be in the focus right away. If we are going purely by geographics, High Elves have no business being part of the narrative outside of small trading settlements and Elftown in Marienburg, so GW's reasoning behind the inclusion and exclusion of factions in not that simple. I'm sure it's a mix of what they can justify in lore and whatever miniature ranges they deem most attractive or lucrative.
It's Tolkienesque Fantasy. Humans, Orcs, Dwarves, and both Rivendell and Lothlorien Elves were always pretty near guarantees to be included.
It will be interesting to see just what they release or re-release for the Wood Elves. Their current stance got me thinking that it will probably be mostly non-spirit elves, with the odd non-spirit monster among them, and tree-people of all sizes are going to get a 'fluffy' reason for being AWOL in AOS-land.
Breotan wrote: - Necromunda (N17) saw significant releases in 2022 with the massive Ash Wastes box set, Nomads gang, Ridgehauler and vehicle upgrades for three gangs, Squats in plastic for the first time since... they were squatted.
Yes, which is why Necromunda does not qualify as a niche game in the same way as the examples I gave. It's front and centre right there with Blood Bowl in terms of mainline GW support.
Breotan wrote: - Aeronautica saw a campaign book, the Custodes aircraft, Aeldari Wraithfighters and Interceptors (both in plastic), and the Necron fliers.
All of those are FW resin, not plastic - with all associated quality problems and inaccessible pricing. Meanwhile, there is no starter set available for the game any more.
Breotan wrote: - Titanicus (AT18) did have a smaller release with the Dire Wolf, and some weapon upgrades but it was still something.
The fact that a single FW-only Titan and a handful of weapons is all the game has got illustrates my exact point. And again, no available starter set.
Breotan wrote: Yep, these games obviously died off as soon as they started (which is why they still have new stuff being released four or five years later).
'Dying off' doesn't have to mean completely discontinued, merely that releases are minor and/or limited to FW; I'd say that's exactly where Titanicus and Aeronautica fall. Given they are low-ish model count games they can, to a degree, get away with that, but it's not going to fly for ToW, which is going to require regiments of 20+ models. GW themselves have told us that not every faction is going to get full new plastic treatment (HH, and to a lesser extent Titanicus, prove that not even a one-faction Specialist game can manage that in a reasonable time frame), which guarantees some units will end up either in resin (and thus condemned to death by eye-watering pricing - just look at the Solar Auxilia) or only as MtO old kits sold for the same or higher price than they were originally.
One of the big reasons WHFB died was the obscene pricing for a functional unit. How could doubling down on that, without the excuse of model design costs for a lot of what will be available, lead to anything other than a second demise? After four years all we've seen is two character models and a handful of new parts, so how are we expected to see ToW as anything other than a flimsy excuse to try and sell old kits and a lip-service range of new models to all those GW alienated once already? If there were any kind of coherent and well thought out game behind all the smoke and mirrors, why do we know less than nothing about it after all this time?
It's a minimal effort project designed to exploit nostalgia; not a single bit of information we have about it suggests otherwise.
James12345 wrote: Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?
I think they go for the new kits. I think they will fit nicely in a square base unit, and the design looks almost like they intended them to look more old world than AoS. The same goes for the new goblin wolf riders.
On the other hand they might consider people just wanting to expand their old range, or people wanting nostalgia stuff like those classic goblin wolf riders instead of the new cool ones.
So the question is if its worth having two boxes for basicly the same unit. Probably not. What if they have a big discount box of fugly ol´ goblin wolfriders that people buy for AoS instead of the new design?
James12345 wrote: Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?
With the confirmed increase in base size I'm fairly certain it's going to be the new kits. Except if there is a different reason for that particular change.
They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.
It's worse than that.
If you're playing one of those armies then they'll technically be in the game, but as a legacy army.
Which is not a good experience. Having every game be an uphill battle because you've been left behind of the power creep wears you down and slowly builds up salt. Especially when there's no apparent intention to ever get to your army.
It'll be like using warscrolls against the extra rules of a Battletome or having an index army while everyone else is getting a codex (that when I left, what's it like now?).
The irony is that the main lines for this project (currently anyway) were cut and need reviving because (from what I gather) Bretonia and Tomb Kings were arguably the worst victims of this kind of thing in the first place.
GW keeps doing the same bs and will keep doing it.
James12345 wrote: Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?
I think they go for the new kits. I think they will fit nicely in a square base unit, and the design looks almost like they intended them to look more old world than AoS. The same goes for the new goblin wolf riders.
On the other hand they might consider people just wanting to expand their old range, or people wanting nostalgia stuff like those classic goblin wolf riders instead of the new cool ones.
So the question is if its worth having two boxes for basicly the same unit. Probably not. What if they have a big discount box of fugly ol´ goblin wolfriders that people buy for AoS instead of the new design?
They already showed the old goblin wolf riders, so chances are the kits is returning. It will be odd seeing both the 'old' and "new" versions of the same unit for sale but I'm a fan of mixing units like this. I think GW know though that the community tends to police itself, a lot of folk won't use the 'wrong' miniatures on the off chance of being shunned by their communities (However ridiculous that might be!)
As someone that has a main army of goblins, and having stormcast on squares for WFB, I welcome being able to buy old and new models!
James12345 wrote: Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?
Honestly, no idea. The new ones are basically impossible to rank up, even with bigger bases, and the old ones are a very popular classic kit. Marauders do not have that problem. It's feasible that the new Warriors can be used for e.g. Chosen in the context of TOW, and the classic kit gets re-released. But it's also possible that they double down on their 'the power of Chaos is at an all-time low' and shift Warriors to Elite or 1 per army and have the main body be formed by Marauders.
Gods, the marauders. Watch them do all this and still not update that sad little kit.
James12345 wrote: Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?
Honestly, no idea. The new ones are basically impossible to rank up, even with bigger bases, and the old ones are a very popular classic kit. Marauders do not have that problem. It's feasible that the new Warriors can be used for e.g. Chosen in the context of TOW, and the classic kit gets re-released. But it's also possible that they double down on their 'the power of Chaos is at an all-time low' and shift Warriors to Elite or 1 per army and have the main body be formed by Marauders.
Gods, the marauders. Watch them do all this and still not update that sad little kit.
It ought to be one of the oldest plastic kits still in production, right? Together with some ancient Skaven and Empire kits.
It says that are not part of the narrative for The Old World - as in, the game itself. When they say that those other armies aren't a part of this project beyond the free rules they're handing out just because people have those miniatures on their shelves, and they are not something being actively considered as part of this game, then taking that to mean they'll still show up and still get things is just odd. They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.
A narrative isn't a game. A narrative is a sequence of events being told. They distinctly used the word narrative, and not the word game.
The reason we're told that those armies aren't part of the nine is because they didn't do much during the period. And that's fine. But not doing much, and doing absolutely nothing are not the same thing. For example, the Druchii do at least one very important thing during Asavar Kul's invasion, and that:s to launch an invasion of Ulthuan. So in that instance, they intrude on the narrative. They're still not really a part of it. They're still not part of the core group, as it's the only time they really make their presence felt during this period. But it's impossible to tell the narrative without an appearance by the Dark Elves.
I have enjoyed reading the wide range of reactions and emotions. So much remains unknown that I won’t worry about it yet. I will probably pick up the rules at launch unless they are just recycled 8th Edition which I already own. No rank and flank games are played in my local area now. 9th Age was around for a bit but then died too.
It helps that my armies are Orcs and Dwarfs. I would like to add Empire if the prices aren’t sky high.
Nothing more to say other than “Ravening Hordes” not “Ravening Hoards”. Bash it, if you wish, but use the right name.
James12345 wrote: Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?
Honestly, no idea. The new ones are basically impossible to rank up, even with bigger bases, and the old ones are a very popular classic kit. Marauders do not have that problem. It's feasible that the new Warriors can be used for e.g. Chosen in the context of TOW, and the classic kit gets re-released. But it's also possible that they double down on their 'the power of Chaos is at an all-time low' and shift Warriors to Elite or 1 per army and have the main body be formed by Marauders.
This is exactly what I was doing with my Oldhammer army. I have the classic kit as my mainline Chaos Warriors and started a Chosen regiment from Khagra's Ravagers that I was going to expand out when the new AOS Warriors box came out. That plan fell by the wayside but now I need to see what TOW will bring.
I’m curious how the empire will be done. Aren’t a lot of their models covered in Karl Franz bling? Might make it hard to bring back curtain kits since apparently TOW cares about lore for their setting
James12345 wrote: Do we think they'll use the new aos chaos warriors kits or bring back the old ones that fit better on square bases?
I think they go for the new kits. I think they will fit nicely in a square base unit, and the design looks almost like they intended them to look more old world than AoS. The same goes for the new goblin wolf riders.
On the other hand they might consider people just wanting to expand their old range, or people wanting nostalgia stuff like those classic goblin wolf riders instead of the new cool ones.
So the question is if its worth having two boxes for basicly the same unit. Probably not. What if they have a big discount box of fugly ol´ goblin wolfriders that people buy for AoS instead of the new design?
They already showed the old goblin wolf riders, so chances are the kits is returning. It will be odd seeing both the 'old' and "new" versions of the same unit for sale but I'm a fan of mixing units like this. I think GW know though that the community tends to police itself, a lot of folk won't use the 'wrong' miniatures on the off chance of being shunned by their communities (However ridiculous that might be!)
As someone that has a main army of goblins, and having stormcast on squares for WFB, I welcome being able to buy old and new models!
They also showed a picture of wood elves with an old 6th edition treeman, despite the fact that the "new" plastic treeman was released for 8th edition fantasy battle and should be the treeman of choise even for TOW.
So, basicly, the pictures showed in articles may or may not be just old nostalgia pics. Perhaps, probably, the guys writing the articles dont get alot of clear information either.
It says that are not part of the narrative for The Old World - as in, the game itself. When they say that those other armies aren't a part of this project beyond the free rules they're handing out just because people have those miniatures on their shelves, and they are not something being actively considered as part of this game, then taking that to mean they'll still show up and still get things is just odd. They outright say that the game only has rules to let you play those armies "as a service to fans" and "for old times sake", that is pretty much the same as saying they are not part of the game overall.
A narrative isn't a game. A narrative is a sequence of events being told. They distinctly used the word narrative, and not the word game.
The reason we're told that those armies aren't part of the nine is because they didn't do much during the period. And that's fine. But not doing much, and doing absolutely nothing are not the same thing. For example, the Druchii do at least one very important thing during Asavar Kul's invasion, and that:s to launch an invasion of Ulthuan. So in that instance, they intrude on the narrative. They're still not really a part of it. They're still not part of the core group, as it's the only time they really make their presence felt during this period. But it's impossible to tell the narrative without an appearance by the Dark Elves.
The game covers "The Old World" narrative, that is what it is for and what they are doing with it. Those armies have been outright stated to not be part of that, it is in effect the same as them not being part of the game, because that narrative is what supplements/additions will be themed around as and when they appear. They're getting the free rules just "for old times sake" as "a service to fans", and that's it for their involvement. If they were getting more, than they would be part of the narrative.
Eumerin wrote: A narrative isn't a game. A narrative is a sequence of events being told. They distinctly used the word narrative, and not the word game.
The reason we're told that those armies aren't part of the nine is because they didn't do much during the period. And that's fine. But not doing much, and doing absolutely nothing are not the same thing. For example, the Druchii do at least one very important thing during Asavar Kul's invasion, and that:s to launch an invasion of Ulthuan. So in that instance, they intrude on the narrative. They're still not really a part of it. They're still not part of the core group, as it's the only time they really make their presence felt during this period. But it's impossible to tell the narrative without an appearance by the Dark Elves.
They do distinctly use game, too:
The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag.
Nothing in the rest of the article suggests that legacy factions will be involved in the game and narrative. Quite the opposite:
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.
The battles of Warhammer: the Old World take place in the decades immediately before the Siege of Praag.
Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.
These legacy faction army lists will be made available for free as pdfs as a service to fans who have these classic armies on their shelf, so they can still bring them to battle for old times sake.
Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World and, during this period, are very inward looking and insular races.
I'm not sure how much clearer it can be: The game is set in the Old World, decades before the Siege of Praag. The first wave of books and supplements are taking place in and around the Border Princes. Their focus will be on nine core factions, who "will be pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements". Certain factions are not part of the narrative they are telling with the Old World; four of which are described as "during this period, very inward looking and insular", while the remaining two are out of action due to events that occurred prior to where The Old World narrative starts, and neither will be making a return until The Great War Against Chaos in any true capacity. Stating that the non-core factions will receive legacy army list pdfs as "a service to fans/can still bring them to battle for old times sake" does not suggest they have any plans to give new rules, models or lore for legacy factions.
If TOW succeeds beyond GW expectations, we might see an expansion and further resources allocated to the Old World team, bringing those legacy factions back proper. At the moment though, this game is stated (by GW and by many of the player base) to be akin to HH. With the heavy emphasis that the narrative is taking place in the decades before the Siege of Praag/Great War Against Chaos, we aren't going to see Ulthuan invaded, VC returning, Skaven swarming to the surface, or see Ogres, Lizardmen or Chaos Dwarfs becoming part of the narrative.
If TOW succeeds beyond GW expectations, we might see an expansion and further resources allocated to the Old World team, bringing those legacy factions back proper. At the moment though, this game is stated (by GW and by many of the player base) to be akin to HH, and with the heavy emphasis that the narrative is taking place in the decades before the Siege of Praag/Great War Against Chaos, we won't see Ulthuan invaded, or Skaven returning, or VC coming out of hiding.
Importantly, due to the fact that they are essentially saying that they currently have no further plans for these factions, even if TOW were to be wildly succesful far beyond GW's expectations, design work would on these factions would just start then, i.e. when they realize that. The logistics, lead times etc. involved, we can reasonably assume, would mean that from that point out, these factions would still be multiple years away, as they'd need to find a release slot for them, do all the production and shipping steps and so on and so on. Which in turn means that they're at least half a decade away, even if TOW was released next year. We don't know how far into the future GW has planned their release schedules, but we do know that their 'tentpole' products are designed 3-4 years in advance. The schedule itself probably goes even farther than that, subject to operational and management changes.
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to suggesting that 
Actually, Warhammer sported a defined alignment system (well, scale) for a long time. Classically, warhammer wood elves did have Good alignment, and undead and orcs Evil.
