Just Tony wrote: My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.
Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.
So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.
Yeah, the staffers at Lenton may have a bit more of an inkling just from hearing things in passing but I wouldn't put too much stock in it just yet. That said, I also wouldn't be surprised if there's plans for Chaos Dwarfs. It's not directly applicable but their introduction in Total War has seemingly gone down very well, (big hats and all) and we know the CA team have been working, to an extent, in tangent with GW. Obviously how much of that translates over to the tabletop is questionable but it's at least demonstrative that there's an appetite for the faction in general.
I know age of sigmar started to tease chaos dwarfs with the release of the new edition. Before that, warcry featured a few stand alone chaos dwarfs. I wonder if the end of FW chorfs is due to that rather than TOW
Alpharius wrote: Chaos Dwarves would be incredibly awesome to have here and would also be the only thing that would get me interested again in AoS too.
Same. My old signature line for years was I would play WHFB when GW brings back Charlie Dwarves.
I doubt Warhammer World store staff get informed about upcoming products that are potentially months away from even being announced let alone released, really.
Maybe he just meant their involvement in the setting itself? Chaos Dwarves are barely even a part of AoS, aren't they?
Mentlegen324 wrote: I doubt Warhammer World store staff get informed about upcoming products that are potentially months away from even being announced let alone released, really.
Maybe he just meant their involvement in the setting itself? Chaos Dwarves are barely even a part of AoS, aren't they?
GW have been teasing the arrival of Chaos Dwarves pretty hard in 3rd edition. They be a playable army sooner rather than later.
CD have probably had a harder push in AoS than in fantasy for years. Horns of Hashut being a specific vanguard unit being created for Warcry and constantly being teased on the edge of appearing in full force.
Dang I'm hoping for a Chaos Dwarf Old World release especially since they are 1 of my 7 Old World armies...Combining dwarven ingenuity and engineering skill with sorcery and dark magic really pleases me for some reason lol. Glory to HASHUT!!!
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: CD have probably had a harder push in AoS than in fantasy for years. Horns of Hashut being a specific vanguard unit being created for Warcry and constantly being teased on the edge of appearing in full force.
There is still the question of why anyone in the Studio thought it was a good idea to have a warband whose name references Hashut not involve any actual Chaos Dwarfs, though.
Because fluff wise, they're meant to be throw away chaff troops used to take some of the brunt of what they're sent against. And not spending dwarf lives in doing so
Chaos dwarfs strikes me as another skaven type faction, with so many options it is almost an alliance of its own. You can build it many ways Slave hordes, magic heavy, artillery, cavalry, big boy units like siege giants etc.
Hope they keep the top hats for at least one unit, like the flashyness of the greatswords.
triplegrim wrote: Chaos dwarfs strikes me as another skaven type faction, with so many options it is almost an alliance of its own. You can build it many ways Slave hordes, magic heavy, artillery, cavalry, big boy units like siege giants etc.
Hope they keep the top hats for at least one unit, like the flashyness of the greatswords.
Well they could to what CA did with the Chaos Dwarfs. Give the core untis big hats and give the Azgorh style to more elite units.
To be fair you look at a lot of AoS "armies" and a good many are just 1 Old World faction fragmented and then steadily added too.
Heck Death Grand Alliance is basically all the old Vampire models just split into themes. Ghouls in one; ghosts expanded in another; vampires in a core. Even Ossiarchs have a few Vampire models.
Fayric wrote: Its really amazing how people can be nostalgic about chaos dwarfs in an old world thread.
-The army was really bad with just a handfull of options, and so they had to copensate with overpowered magic and monsters.
-The models looked horrible, even by those days standard. Lazy and silly sculpting.
That's true, but the army was also the most difficult to collect after 5th edition and thus had their players and collectors highly invested in their collection - especially before internet use was widespread, some rare models had an almost mythical quality to them, with some people even doubting that they were real...
Just Tony wrote: My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.
Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.
So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.
You and I have drastically different concepts for "very good prices"...
Just Tony wrote: My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.
Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.
So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.
You and I have drastically different concepts for "very good prices"...
Depend when you were looking really. There was a golden time when it was pretty good prices on it. Today the prices are likely stupidly high since everything went out of production
Just Tony wrote: My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.
Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.
So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.
You and I have drastically different concepts for "very good prices"...
I see £8 -£10 for a unit of Swordmasters (that was the price while IOB was in print), new on sprues, as a very good price. If you don't, then that's on you, not me.
Just Tony wrote: My issue is that it takes a HUGE number of purchases of that set to get multiple 20 man Swordmaster units. Eltharion's rules in 6th eliminated the 0-1 which was carried over to the later army books, and there wasn't a good way to get multiple units.
Ebay was awash with all of the units from Island Of Blood, for very good prices.
So yeah, there was a cheap, easy way to get plenty of Swordmaster units. I remember them being way cheaper than an equivalent unit that you would buy from GW (less than half price IIRC), which made up for the lack of options.
You and I have drastically different concepts for "very good prices"...
Depend when you were looking really. There was a golden time when it was pretty good prices on it. Today the prices are likely stupidly high since everything went out of production
Looking back through my CC spending logs - I got the entire set, new in box for $67.50 (USD) in 2014. Can you imagine ever getting a box that cheap with that many minis from GW? I recently did a search on Ebay to try to find the 6(!) Space Marines from the getting started set because I thought it would be fun to just paint a few Space Marines, I couldn't find any listings that were significantly cheaper than just buying the whole set from MM or someone. Good Ebay deals even on current stuff seems to be a thing of the past.
Why I would pay 60£ for something I can get for 60£ from GW and get MORE stuff as well? That's what some ebay sellers think people do.
Then again...There's always guillible ones.
There's probably an edge case involving currency exchange rates for at least some people considering that GW usually finds their conversion rates in the dross of an opium pipe
Don't forget as well with current absurd inflation and misery (certainly here in the UK) people trying to sell on ebay are wanting more money for their items while conversely you as the buyer are wanting to buy for less.
Also, I don't remember it ever being 8-10 quid for a unit of Swordmasters, it was maybe 7 quid for a blister pack of 3.
Olthannon wrote: Don't forget as well with current absurd inflation and misery (certainly here in the UK) people trying to sell on ebay are wanting more money for their items while conversely you as the buyer are wanting to buy for less.
Also, I don't remember it ever being 8-10 quid for a unit of Swordmasters, it was maybe 7 quid for a blister pack of 3.
I was talking about prices on ebay, back when it was flooded with people re-selling the contents of the currently in production Island Of Blood.
Hopefully new Chaos Dwarfs will, stylistically, borrow from the old WHFB and old FW ones.
I prefer the FW infantry (if not their price!), as the silly hats were gone. But, I found their artillery, with the application of modern hindsight, too AoS to pass for WHFB. They just stood out too much. Like someone was using (pretty!) proxy models.
The original WHFB artillery definitely shows its age, as the models were pretty plain.
triplegrim wrote: Chaos dwarfs strikes me as another skaven type faction, with so many options it is almost an alliance of its own. You can build it many ways Slave hordes, magic heavy, artillery, cavalry, big boy units like siege giants etc.
Hope they keep the top hats for at least one unit, like the flashyness of the greatswords.
Well they could to what CA did with the Chaos Dwarfs. Give the core untis big hats and give the Azgorh style to more elite units.
I hope that what they do. I just wonder if there is too many taboo topics in the Hobogoblins and Greenskin units in today's world.
No leaks regarding what they are previewing on Sunday (8:00 am CST)...Best case they announce this is dropping in November/December and maybe even preview some of the rules. If that's the case, wonder if we will start learning more about the game post 10th ed 40k release beyond the monthly updates.
I really hope the Empire factions have a core of “The Same” units but then very faction specific ones. I want some Knights of Manann templar knights for the Marienburg faction all decked out in sea iconography.
Cataphract wrote: I really hope the Empire factions have a core of “The Same” units but then very faction specific ones. I want some Knights of Manann templar knights for the Marienburg faction all decked out in sea iconography.
Would not hold my breath, though some iconography to pick from in the box sprue might be possible.
Pretty sure there will be a cult of ulrik army and a cult of sigmar army, wolfy wolf and skully skulls respectively.
With the arty school at nuln we are probably looking at shooty empire faction, infantry faction of empire and religious or something faction of empire.
Then probably some heroes for each faction of the civil war, which granted will be more interesting than everyone being servants of Karl Franz. Hoping for some real antiheroes though here and there.
I still have my old Delfs, Emp and O&G armies stored, but... if I'm being honest I'm more interested on seeing if the "new" system could work with 10mm/Warmaster minis, as I'm currently more interested in smaller scales, particularly for this kinda game.
I mean, Warmaster is cool, so it's not a problem either way, but I'm just wondering ^^
Eiríkr wrote: Really hoping tomorrow is something decent, otherwise this Warhammer Fest has been a bit of a wet squib for my liking...
Huh. Its been exactly what I expected so far- the 40k launch box and season boxes for Underworlds and Warcry. Not sure what else they would've shown. LotR is a little disappointing with a just a tiny diorama, but its not really my game.
Tomorrow has the question mark on it. Particularly old world and HH can potentially be deeply disappointing, or really exciting. AoS is likely just the reveal of the next set of books.
KT monday is probably just the last of the space hulk letdown.
Eiríkr wrote: Really hoping tomorrow is something decent, otherwise this Warhammer Fest has been a bit of a wet squib for my liking...
Huh. Its been exactly what I expected so far- the 40k launch box and season boxes for Underworlds and Warcry. Not sure what else they would've shown. LotR is a little disappointing with a just a tiny diorama, but its not really my game.
Tomorrow has the question mark on it. Particularly old world and HH can potentially be deeply disappointing, or really exciting. AoS is likely just the reveal of the next set of books.
KT monday is probably just the last of the space hulk letdown.
The whole event seems kind of oddly composed - no specific seminar for Black Library, nothing on Necromunda but that non-preview for LotR... i can only explain it to myself by them being a bit out of the whole 'organizing a huge event' game after just doing stuff online for years.
Eiríkr wrote: Really hoping tomorrow is something decent, otherwise this Warhammer Fest has been a bit of a wet squib for my liking...
Huh. Its been exactly what I expected so far- the 40k launch box and season boxes for Underworlds and Warcry. Not sure what else they would've shown. LotR is a little disappointing with a just a tiny diorama, but its not really my game.
Tomorrow has the question mark on it. Particularly old world and HH can potentially be deeply disappointing, or really exciting. AoS is likely just the reveal of the next set of books.
KT monday is probably just the last of the space hulk letdown.
I'm not a 40K player, it doesn't interest me at all and the shiny new bits for 10th Edition were expected. Since the split Warcry/Underworld/Middle-Earth slot was supposed to be 90 minutes long (but ended up being a measly 28!), and that's what I checked in for, I was left feeling pretty cold - mostly for the Middle Earth. I am now expecting 3D renders, maybe some artwork or something, for tomorrow's Old World peek.
Very disappointing announcement for The Old World. Basically the contents of what would come in a weekly WarCom article. Could prove the rumored Brets v Tomb Kings box set true, though, based on the announced first factions.
Made a point of saying focus will be on supporting factions fighting in the Old World location, so guessing that Naggaroth, Ulthuan and Lustria based forces are not going feature in the release plan, at least not in the beginning.
All 8th Edition factions will be playable though
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"
Flashman wrote: Made a point of saying focus will be on supporting factions fighting in the Old World location, so guessing that Naggaroth, Ulthuan and Lustria based forces are not going feature in the release plan, at least not in the beginning.
All 8th Edition factions will be playable though
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"
So what armies aren't likely to be part of this much, then? They mentioned it'll be on the ones "fighting in the old world" in this time period, but I have no idea who that means specifically. I'd presume not really Lizardmen/Elves.
Empire, Orcs, Dwarfs, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia, Chaos, at least?
-iPaint- wrote: Very disappointing announcement for The Old World. Basically the contents of what would come in a weekly WarCom article. Could prove the rumored Brets v Tomb Kings box set true, though, based on the announced first factions.
But yes, that announcement was very lackluster.
~iPaint
It's good enough for me to have confirmation that GW isn't just screwing around and Tomb Kings and Bretonnians are actually the first two factions. I'd like to be able to buy Tomb Kings kits again (good ones anyway) and the sooner that happens, the better.
So what armies aren't likely to be part of this much, then? They mentioned it'll be on the ones "fighting in the old world" in this time period, but I have no idea who that means specifically. I'd presume not really Lizardmen/Elves.
Empire, Orcs, Dwarfs, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia, Chaos, at least?
They said every army will be playable, they're just focusing on armies at the time period with regards to new releases.
Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"
Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.
That's just the usual damage control / antagonism from bad actors. Hardcore AoS fans want to see ToW crash and burn, and the other side wants to see AoS replaced by ToW. Best to not pay attention to these shitters in the first place.
Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"
Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.
Typical Twitch chat of whiny babies. Lots of crying about resin releases despite it being very clear from the beginning that this was the Fantasy "Horus Heresy".
So what armies aren't likely to be part of this much, then? They mentioned it'll be on the ones "fighting in the old world" in this time period, but I have no idea who that means specifically. I'd presume not really Lizardmen/Elves.
Empire, Orcs, Dwarfs, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia, Chaos, at least?
They said every army will be playable, they're just focusing on armies at the time period with regards to new releases.
Yes, they'll all be playable, but there's a big difference between that and actually being involved in this in a proper capacity.
No starter set isn't an outright bad thing. Starter sets are typically 2 army deals not 1 army deals and they are right.
Most of us getting starter set are often looking to trade away half the set anyway. It's really only pure new people buying sets as a pair of friends and such. That's at least GW's "intent" with two army starters.
So no two army starter isn't a bad thing, esp if they perhaps did a single starter set per faction with a rulebook or battletome rolled in - army sets.
bringing back old models and mix in some new ones
I guess they showed up the old Bretonnia models in the last article because they are going to stay
cannot wait on GW selling the 30 year old skeleton kit and people praising it as the best one that was ever released by any company and totally wort the 40€ for 10 models /s
No starter set is an odd choice hopefully there will be at least be an army set for each, it kind of suits me anyway as Khemri doesn't interest me but I want to completely redo my Brettonian army now that I've had years more painting practice - but I intend to round base and use movement trays can't go back to squares now. Liking the foot Paladin, resin isn't a problem so long as it's well cast.
So far I like these models. I was afraid, that they move away too much from 6-8th aesthetich, but these fit to the old minis enought, that they wont stand out, but still having some freshness in them aswell.
The material is another thing... I dont like resin to put it in a polite manner, that said, if the troops remain the old WHFB plastics, I wont complain much. On that topic of troops, I am happy that not just the plastic kits are comming back. There are some metals that I wanted to pick up.
DaveC wrote: No starter set is an odd choice hopefully there will be at least be an army set for each, it kind of suits me anyway as Khemri doesn't interest me but I want to completely redo my Brettonian army now that I've had years more painting practice - but I intend to round base and use movement trays can't go back to squares now. Liking the foot Paladin, resin isn't a problem so long as it's well cast.
I don't know exactly how their shipping & handling procedures work and how their plants are set up, but if TOW has e.g. characters in resin and regiments in plastic for the most part, with added resin stuff for some monsters etc., it might not even be (economically) feasible to package all of that in a starter set at an acceptable price point. Other than doing a 'virtual' set where the purchases are packaged and shipped separately, and you just get a bundle discount, that is.
DaveC wrote: No starter set is an odd choice hopefully there will be at least be an army set for each, it kind of suits me anyway as Khemri doesn't interest me but I want to completely redo my Brettonian army now that I've had years more painting practice - but I intend to round base and use movement trays can't go back to squares now. Liking the foot Paladin, resin isn't a problem so long as it's well cast.
I'd guess they couldn't put together 'metrics' on what combination of armies would sell well enough to make a starter set worthwhile.
Not impressed by their approach here. Not just the lack of a starter, but resin characters, an unclear release model, and so forth. They should have left these two models as a teaser, and not done a 'preview' if this muddle is all they had to offer.
Yeah, this kinda smells like GW decided they don't actually want to do ToW, but since they announced it, they're putting something out. If the mess sticks, they might put some effort into it later.
Not feeling this approach for what should be a major franchise pillar of the company.
kodos wrote: So they are really doing the worst we expected?
bringing back old models and mix in some new ones
I guess they showed up the old Bretonnia models in the last article because they are going to stay
cannot wait on GW selling the 30 year old skeleton kit and people praising it as the best one that was ever released by any company and totally wort the 40€ for 10 models /s
Honestly? I would buy the old skeleton set (though not for what GW would charge for it). I'm a big softie for nostalgia and I cut my teeth on the Warhammer of the late 90's . Not everything has to be a hyper-detailed CAD model.
Also, is that Paladin a manlet, or is the Tomb King a giant?
Assume the latter. The 8th ed Tomb Kings update saw embiggened Tomb Guard (and characters) to set a standard that pretty much looked like that, a head taller than normal people.
It's quite possible that the Paladin stands taller than old Bretonnians and still looks like a midget.
Also, is that Paladin a manlet, or is the Tomb King a giant?
Assume the latter. The 8th ed Tomb Kings update saw embiggened Tomb Guard (and characters) to set a standard that pretty much looked like that, a head taller than normal people.
It's quite possible that the Paladin stands taller than old Bretonnians and still looks like a midget.
Its also entirely possible that they didn't coordinate a scale and the sculptors didn't talk.
More and more I am convinced the ToW is nothing but vaporware that was hurriedly concocted to try and draw people away from Kings of War, without any real substance or intent behind it. No starter set kills any chance it would have at drawing in new players, and all they seem willing to offer WHFB enthusiasts is a handful of rubbish resin models (that Tomb King is embarassing). Reviving some of the old ranges at least gives some options back to those who had or wanted TK or Bretonnian armies back in the day, but I dread to think how much they'll charge for them now.
So far, an abject failure that shows no sign of life at all.
Also, is that Paladin a manlet, or is the Tomb King a giant?
Assume the latter. The 8th ed Tomb Kings update saw embiggened Tomb Guard (and characters) to set a standard that pretty much looked like that, a head taller than normal people.
It's quite possible that the Paladin stands taller than old Bretonnians and still looks like a midget.
Its also entirely possible that they didn't coordinate a scale and the sculptors didn't talk.
That's a given at GW. I wouldn't even trust the same sculptor to coordinate scale with himself, honestly.
DaveC wrote: No starter set is an odd choice hopefully there will be at least be an army set for each, it kind of suits me anyway as Khemri doesn't interest me but I want to completely redo my Brettonian army now that I've had years more painting practice - but I intend to round base and use movement trays can't go back to squares now. Liking the foot Paladin, resin isn't a problem so long as it's well cast.
I'd guess they couldn't put together 'metrics' on what combination of armies would sell well enough to make a starter set worthwhile.
Not impressed by their approach here. Not just the lack of a starter, but resin characters, an unclear release model, and so forth. They should have left these two models as a teaser, and not done a 'preview' if this muddle is all they had to offer.
My overall impression so far is that they'd fared much better if they had just left out TOW and MESBG, added in a BL seminar, and cut the whole thing by a day. That way, they'd have had a much tighter series of hits on each day instead of this drawn-out and lacklustre affair. Objectively, they're not even showing that little, it's a solid lineup, but because it's spread over three days and has MESBG and TOW as clear duds in between it seems worse than it really is.
MalusCalibur wrote: More and more I am convinced the ToW is nothing but vaporware that was hurriedly concocted to try and draw people away from Kings of War, without any real substance or intent behind it. No starter set kills any chance it would have at drawing in new players, and all they seem willing to offer WHFB enthusiasts is a handful of rubbish resin models (that Tomb King is embarassing). Reviving some of the old ranges at least gives some options back to those who had or wanted TK or Bretonnian armies back in the day, but I dread to think how much they'll charge for them now.
So far, an abject failure that shows no sign of life at all.
This is my impression as well. Cash in on the people who did not manage to complete their factions back when it all went down the gakker, add a few overpriced FW characters and call it a day. I can't say I'm thrilled with that outlook, but it's better than nothing. TK and Brets will be cheaper than eBay prices, so that's a positive.
kodos wrote: So they are really doing the worst we expected?
bringing back old models and mix in some new ones
I guess they showed up the old Bretonnia models in the last article because they are going to stay
cannot wait on GW selling the 30 year old skeleton kit and people praising it as the best one that was ever released by any company and totally wort the 40€ for 10 models /s
Well it was that or start with 2 factions to play with and expand slowly.
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?
Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"
Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.
Typical Twitch chat of whiny babies. Lots of crying about resin releases despite it being very clear from the beginning that this was the Fantasy "Horus Heresy".
You've seen the amount of bitching in the HH thread whenever a model/upgrade kit is confirmed as resin, right? Some people really need to grow the feth up.
MalusCalibur wrote: More and more I am convinced the ToW is nothing but vaporware that was hurriedly concocted to try and draw people away from Kings of War, without any real substance or intent behind it. No starter set kills any chance it would have at drawing in new players, and all they seem willing to offer WHFB enthusiasts is a handful of rubbish resin models (that Tomb King is embarassing). Reviving some of the old ranges at least gives some options back to those who had or wanted TK or Bretonnian armies back in the day, but I dread to think how much they'll charge for them now.
So far, an abject failure that shows no sign of life at all.
This is my impression as well. Cash in on the people who did not manage to complete their factions back when it all went down the gakker, add a few overpriced FW characters and call it a day. I can't say I'm thrilled with that outlook, but it's better than nothing. TK and Brets will be cheaper than eBay prices, so that's a positive.
It starts to look like some of the conspiracy theories that they're just putting out the minimal viable product to give some of their registered designs and trademarks another decade or two before they're expiring aren't that far off the mark.
tneva82 wrote:
kodos wrote: So they are really doing the worst we expected?
bringing back old models and mix in some new ones
I guess they showed up the old Bretonnia models in the last article because they are going to stay
cannot wait on GW selling the 30 year old skeleton kit and people praising it as the best one that was ever released by any company and totally wort the 40€ for 10 models /s
Well it was that or start with 2 factions to play with and expand slowly.
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?
At least Chaos has cross-system uses, including legacy games like e.g. Mordheim that have living communities still, or for things like WHFRP. Both of these can always use more Empire characters as well. Bretonnia is so-so, but Khemri is one of the more outlandish factions and can barely fit in anywhere else. Even Lizardmen have more off-label use right now.
So far, there hasn't been much said about TOW that I find surprising, it's basically all "I told you so" levels of what I expected.
Actually I do find it surprising that there's no starter set, though from what I have seen/heard it sounds kind of like GW is launching TOW in 2 phases - phase 1 is core rules and legacy rules/models, phase 2 will come after which is focusing on the time of three emperors narrative. That phase 2 is expected out later, and I bet THAT is when a starter with new plastics will drop.
chaos0xomega wrote: So far, there hasn't been much said about TOW that I find surprising, it's basically all "I told you so" levels of what I expected.
Actually I do find it surprising that there's no starter set, though from what I have seen/heard it sounds kind of like GW is launching TOW in 2 phases - phase 1 is core rules and legacy rules/models, phase 2 will come after which is focusing on the time of three emperors narrative. That phase 2 is expected out later, and I bet THAT is when a starter with new plastics will drop.
Maybe there's something to the rumours about reprints for Island of Blood and Battle for Skull Pass - these are pure plastic products, so they could crank them out without any S&H problems, and they're very popular boxes from what i gather.
His Master's Voice wrote: Yeah, this kinda smells like GW decided they don't actually want to do ToW, but since they announced it, they're putting something out. If the mess sticks, they might put some effort into it later.
Not feeling this approach for what should be a major franchise pillar of the company.
Yea I'm real squeamish on this. This may end up a garage game and not something that has real consistent attention. If they phone in the rules it's pretty much dead for me.
tneva82 wrote: Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?
That would at least lure new players in with fresh plastic and let everyone who already has an army play along, while waiting for their army to get an update.
I don't see the approach they picked drive new people to the system and the grognards aren't going to keep it alive tomorrow, if they couldn't yesterday.
I’m not sold on the Paladin. In resin, I’m going to hope that the sword/pile o junk he is carrying is a separate piece (it almost has to be, right?).
When I first saw it, I thought he was carrying a lantern in his left hand, then I thought he had three arms. It took me a bit to see through all the stuff tacked on.
And, come on, he is a knight, right? Where is the squire? Why is he a Paladin and torchbearer and pack mule?
That being said, I can dump that terrible backpack whatever it is, give him a shield somewhere, and clean it up into a proper Noble (depending entirely on price, of course).
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm a bit surprised, seems my level of appreciation of TOW stream is a bit higher than the Dakkadakka average once for a change.
It's pretty focused with lots of unspecific "stuff is coming". I can appreciate it because I'm specifically interested in what's going on with Tomb Kings, but I can see how the wider audience didn't get much out of it.
What are the takeaways, really? It'll release at an as of yet unannounced, even unhinted point in time. New stuff isn't all plastic. Whenever it comes out, two niche armies are first. I don't think any of that is very exciting for most people who are looking forward to the old setting coming back.
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm a bit surprised, seems my level of appreciation of TOW stream is a bit higher than the Dakkadakka average once for a change.
It's pretty focused with lots of unspecific "stuff is coming". I can appreciate it because I'm specifically interested in what's going on with Tomb Kings, but I can see how the wider audience didn't get much out of it.
What are the takeaways, really? It'll release at an as of yet unannounced, even unhinted point in time. New stuff isn't all plastic. Whenever it comes out, two niche armies are first. I don't think any of that is very exciting for most people who are looking forward to the old setting coming back.
+
There are 'Army book equivalents', whatever that means in practice.
I think this one stream in particular would have really, really benefitted from keeping the video going through the Q&A session. Since they did not, it will all come down to hearsay and chinese whispers in the community.
chaos0xomega wrote: So far, there hasn't been much said about TOW that I find surprising, it's basically all "I told you so" levels of what I expected.
Actually I do find it surprising that there's no starter set, though from what I have seen/heard it sounds kind of like GW is launching TOW in 2 phases - phase 1 is core rules and legacy rules/models, phase 2 will come after which is focusing on the time of three emperors narrative. That phase 2 is expected out later, and I bet THAT is when a starter with new plastics will drop.
Maybe there's something to the rumours about reprints for Island of Blood and Battle for Skull Pass - these are pure plastic products, so they could crank them out without any S&H problems, and they're very popular boxes from what i gather.
I'll do backflips if they reprint Island of Blood at a reasonable price.
Also, Old World got the biggest cheer and chants of "We want more!"
Interesting, the twitch stream chat was very bitter about it and repeatedly said it should just stay dead... very rude community there overall.
That's just the usual damage control / antagonism from bad actors. Hardcore AoS fans want to see ToW crash and burn, and the other side wants to see AoS replaced by ToW. Best to not pay attention to these shitters in the first place.
Cruentus wrote: I’m not sold on the Paladin. In resin, I’m going to hope that the sword/pile o junk he is carrying is a separate piece (it almost has to be, right?).
When I first saw it, I thought he was carrying a lantern in his left hand, then I thought he had three arms. It took me a bit to see through all the stuff tacked on.
And, come on, he is a knight, right? Where is the squire? Why is he a Paladin and torchbearer and pack mule?
That being said, I can dump that terrible backpack whatever it is, give him a shield somewhere, and clean it up into a proper Noble (depending entirely on price, of course).
From what I recall, Paladins were grail knights who lived alone in the grail chapels throughout Bretonnia. They had no squires because they lived to serve the Lady rather than being in charge of a barony or dukedom.
tneva82 wrote: Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?
That would at least lure new players in with fresh plastic and let everyone who already has an army play along, while waiting for their army to get an update.
I don't see the approach they picked drive new people to the system and the grognards aren't going to keep it alive tomorrow, if they couldn't yesterday.
Yea the two factions that would be playable. Forget daemons, beast, orcs, ogres, elves, dwarves. Nothing for those.
Cruentus wrote: I’m not sold on the Paladin. In resin, I’m going to hope that the sword/pile o junk he is carrying is a separate piece (it almost has to be, right?).
When I first saw it, I thought he was carrying a lantern in his left hand, then I thought he had three arms. It took me a bit to see through all the stuff tacked on.
And, come on, he is a knight, right? Where is the squire? Why is he a Paladin and torchbearer and pack mule?
That being said, I can dump that terrible backpack whatever it is, give him a shield somewhere, and clean it up into a proper Noble (depending entirely on price, of course).
He needs all the equipment to adventure around and get gak done. Compare to bretonnia fukkbois Questing knights who has sworn to never sleep more than one night in a place before moving on om their quest for the holy grail.
Very remnicient of the questing knight package pieces with kitchen items and books.
tneva82 wrote: Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?
That would at least lure new players in with fresh plastic and let everyone who already has an army play along, while waiting for their army to get an update.
I don't see the approach they picked drive new people to the system and the grognards aren't going to keep it alive tomorrow, if they couldn't yesterday.
Yea the two factions that would be playable. Forget daemons, beast, orcs, ogres, elves, dwarves. Nothing for those.
Wait. You think that by forgoing a starter set, that somehow, magically, everything for everyone is going to be released all at once?
Factions are still going to be released in no particular order, with older ones screwed over by having to wait to be 'playable.'
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm a bit surprised, seems my level of appreciation of TOW stream is a bit higher than the Dakkadakka average once for a change.
It's pretty focused with lots of unspecific "stuff is coming". I can appreciate it because I'm specifically interested in what's going on with Tomb Kings, but I can see how the wider audience didn't get much out of it.
What are the takeaways, really? It'll release at an as of yet unannounced, even unhinted point in time. New stuff isn't all plastic. Whenever it comes out, two niche armies are first. I don't think any of that is very exciting for most people who are looking forward to the old setting coming back.
Six seconds in I realized there would only be a single model per faction displayed.
I am predicting a 2025 lacklustre release. Might just as well get with the warhammer armies project or whatever, or I'll be close to 50 before I get some rank and flank games.
I don't know what people's expectations about The Old World were, but it was clear to me from the beginning that the level of model support would be very similar to Lord of the Rings, which is also handled by Forge World now.
A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.
Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.
stahly wrote: I don't know what people's expectations about The Old World were, but it was clear to me from the beginning that the level of model support would be very similar to Lord of the Rings, which is also handled by Forge World now.
A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.
Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.
You expect to see models that weren't good in the 1990s sold for 2020s prices, you get confirmation that GW is going to do just that, and you can't be disappointed? Well then.
It felt less like a preview and more a handful of community articles strung together at the last minute. While initially excited on seeing the first new TK and Bretonnia models in years, hearing they would be resin dampened my excitement, and the rest of the preview was lacklustre. The presenters sounding uninterested (really noticeable during the artwork section), along with the rehashing of what they've already revealed before in community articles, combined with their responses in the Q&A it does seem like they're setting this up to fail a second time....after they've made a boatload of cash from nostalgia first, of course.
Well it was that or start with 2 factions to play with and expand slowly.
Guess you would have prefered that? Empire vs chaos(humans) and then rest later?
and now we are expanding slowly and have no cheap core to start, or do you think every single faction will get their full range on release (old+new models). It starts with 2 factions that get some new models and will slowly grow without any cheap easy to build models
the one big point here is a different one, GW said that 2 player starter sets are meant for first-timers not for veterans, hence GW thinks that even games like HH or Necromunda are played by people who are totally new to wargaming and not veterans who want a cheap way to start
but for TOW GW thinks no new player is interested, they were not back than and are not now, and it is only there for those old people who might have finally left the GW bubble if TOW is not made
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stahly wrote: I don't know what people's expectations about The Old World were, but it was clear to me from the beginning that the level of model support would be very similar to Lord of the Rings, which is also handled by Forge World now.
A few books here and there, a plastic kit or two every quarter, some resin stuff to pad out the release schedule, but mostly old kits plus a few old metal models brought back via made to order.
Manage your expectations, pay attention to how GW handles their other non-main systems, and you can't be disappointed.
a lot of people hoped that this will be really big and become the 3rd/4th main system, while other expected at least Specialist Game level treatment but from what we have seen, it is even less than Lord of the Rings as there won't be a cheap entry to the game
this is a lot smaller than most people expected, while also a lot of people have told them not to expect much
PS: it is even less than HH started off as even that game got a cheap model starter with the boxed games, although it was not a dedicated 2 player set
I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.
It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.
His Master's Voice wrote: It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.
GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.
Hope I'm wrong.
Thing is AoS replaced Old World in its position as major fantasy model line.
GW bringing old world back isn't going to change that one bit. GW were up front that Old World was going to be like HH so having resin alongside plastic makes perfect senses, HH also has a lot of resin. It also makes sense that they might start smaller with it. GW has never run concurrent fantasy lines alongside each other from their own IP - the only time they've done it was with Lord of the Rings and Old World at the same time and you can argue that that did help contribute to reasons that resulted in Old World dwindling in popularity.
As for old kits coming back, people keep thinking that that means they are bringing the super old skeletons back and not that its the new stuff (eg skeletons riding snake constructs) which was pretty new at the time of it being removed. Tomb Kings weren't an army of just old models, they had a good chunk of new things that were lost along with them. So bringing those back is good news and also means GW can help bulk out the release.
In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....
His Master's Voice wrote: It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.
GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.
Hope I'm wrong.
In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....
Except not committing to it enough is only going to make it more likely to result in it not doing well. If they don't give it enough attention because people might not get into it, and people don't get into it because they haven't given it enough attention, that's just a self-fullfilling prophecy of their own making.
His Master's Voice wrote: It's not about how GW handles their secondary systems, it's whether WFB should be a secondary system.
GW thinks it should. I think they're gearing up to squander one of their most valuable properties a second time.
Hope I'm wrong.
In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....
Except not committing to it enough is only going to make it more likely to result in it not doing well. If they don't give it enough attention because people might not get into it, and people don't get into it because they haven't given it enough attention, that's just a self-fullfilling prophecy of their own making.
Yep. The HH infantry hiatus already made people gun-shy, and that was with a huge and enthusiastic start to HH 2.0. An even worse production schedule for TOW is going to flatten interest. Starting without confidence and this lackluster preview (after years and years of map fluff only) is pointing the starting gun at the racer's foot.
In the end what actually happens is going to be for GW to show us and for the market to respond too. GW being more cautious about that is a smart move. It if fails or dwindles or if everyone just buys models to use in AoS then GW can adapt. If it takes off like crazy GW can adapt to that too. Better for them to test the waters than to dive in head first with a vast investment only to find that there was a lot of internet hot-air and not enough actual customers for the Old World e tc....
given that Warhammer died because there was not much support from GW, mainly on the model side, and expensive to get into doubt that doing the same now will result an the opposite outcome
and I doubt that GW manage to react that fast if people storm the pre-order and the rulebook is sold within minutes, we have seen what GW does with unexpected high sales on niche products like Cursed City
like TOW selling better than expected, getting high priced models a year later to compensate won't do anything good
EDIT: My favourite Blogger posted it a second before I hit submit.
Anyway... This is a more positive turn of events.
The only thing I'm slightly dissapointed by is the return of metal miniatures. I was kind of hoping that all metal miniatures would be remade in plastic.
Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.
Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?
I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?
edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.
So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?
Looking at the twitter thing he says a "starter set" contains a board/mat and such, but to me "starter set" is synonymous with just the typical box sets of 2 armies + rules you can use to get into it at launch.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.
It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.
Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).
Re: Eddie's comment, it's either damage control or alluding to a "phase 2" launch box after the initial online riles release for legacy armies (or both I suppose).
It's looking like they're putting the barest minimum effort into this so I'm expecting essentially an 8th Ed. reissue rules wise. I'd gamble with 90% certainty that I'll have no incentive to walk away from 6th.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.
It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.
Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).
I agree. For what I care by now, they could just re-release 6th or 7th edition and old models by now, and some vague promises about updates and future releases. At least it would formalize the 'living/existing game' status that is important to so many gamers.
I feel I've waited long enough for this hypothetical game. I dont even know what the army comp rules will be so I can paint up while waiting. Luckily I've gotten into Mordheim living rulebook gak, (which is contrary to my gamer tastes, but its pretty good) and can live with TOW just being vaporware. Feels disappointed at todays release/teaser. Its obvious any real release is at least 2 years in the future. At the very minimum 18 months.
All the info making the rounds really shows me GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?
Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.
It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.
Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).
There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.
caladancid wrote: All the info making the rounds really shows me GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?
Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.
Conquest was going to be okay unless GW decided to go full on rank and file. The game is different enough (lore, scale, art direction and rules) that hits a different spot than Warhammer Fantasy. Removed - none of that please.
caladancid wrote: All the info making the rounds really shows me GW is about to crash the Old World a second time. Maybe they are just doing the minimum to keep the IP going?
Otherwise, this is very disappointing. Good news for Conquest though I suppose.
Seems like they're not really working on it. Though the bretonnian paladin looks great imo, I can get similar stuff 3d printed. I feel like they could just release a Legacy rulebook with 7th edition and all 16 army books some old models and that'd be it, as much as they seem to not worl on TOW anyway.
Okay, I could see some merit in "soft launching" with old kits and rules release to reignite the interest of older players before moving on to a proper "hard launch" with new kits, but only if GW is willing to ignore sales numbers for an extended period of time.
Can anyone imagine GW looking the other way for a year or two while this project is taking up production capacity?
Just Tony wrote: It's looking like they're putting the barest minimum effort into this so I'm expecting essentially an 8th Ed. reissue rules wise. I'd gamble with 90% certainty that I'll have no incentive to walk away from 6th.
At least there'll be models to buy...
Rules (writers) are cheap. Molds are not. Cutting cost on models is not likely indicative of the effort that goes into the rules.
Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.
What a pointless distinction, but at least the message is reassuring.
It highlights how badly GW communicates. They are more concerned with keeping everything a secret than setting clear expectations, and surprisingly* that comes back to bite them time and again.
I was actually surprised how much actual information was in the various roadmaps. I think AoS is the weakest one still, shying away from telling you what the last battletome is when codices to be released around that time are named. Getting nothing at all for Old World during the same event that sees some loosening in this area probably makes things look even worse.
* to no one but GW**
** the last part is speculative
Eddie Eccles clarifying while there won't be a starter set, that doesn't mean there won't be a launch box like Horus Heresy's Age of Darkness box set.
Just what's the difference between that and a starter set?
I think starter sets have dice and rules and rulers and stuff and "not starter sets" have a few of those things missing?
edit - wait I just went and looked the HH set has everything a starter set has. Literally everything including templates.
So perhaps it just lacks the "starter set" advertising letters?
Launch Box means limited numbers and no re-print
like the 40k boxes at start are launch boxes, those that come later with less models are the 2 player sets
so if they make a launch box it just means it is not meant to stay but gone if it sells out
kodos wrote: [Launch Box means limited numbers and no re-print
like the 40k boxes at start are launch boxes, those that come later with less models are the 2 player sets
so if they make a launch box it just means it is not meant to stay but gone if it sells out
Which is fantastic because scalpers can just pick up right where they left.
GW has to play all of their cards close to the vest, because of the upcoming 40k release. I would expect more chewier info about TOW after that release, like in the fall or winter closer to TOW's release around Christmas.
Just so you guys know the announcement of resin models is a good thing. Resin like metal allows the designers allot more flexibility when is comes to releasing new models/units/monsters. We have discovered the with plastics take allot longer to plan and produce. With resin/metal models a company can have new models on the table in a couple of months for little cost, while it can take a long time to plan and produce plastic models, almost a year for one mold in some cases.
I disagree that the rerelease of older plastic is bad. It is a very sound and smart choice. Most of the plastics that exist in both AoS and 40k are older kits. I mean look at the Ogres and the Eldar they are still selling troop kits from the early 2000's and they are still good when put them up against more recent kits. I am a fan of some of the kits they are releasing like the Bret Knights and the Nercosphinx. I agree with what has been said before, it is more important to get models on the table then argue about making new ones of kits that already exist and are still quite good. Anyway even if GW did put out new Realm Knights, i am fairly confident that they would not look very different then kit we are getting (their design is figured out). I am way more interested in the new units that are coming to the table top.
I only ask that it’s character models in resin. Sure WHFB never had the plastic range we have today in AoS and 40K, as a significant number of units were metal/Finecast.
But I don’t want to have to pay Forgeworld Prices for units worth of models. Nor deal with cleaning up and washing resin unless it’s truly unavoidable.
A licensed range of costumes lines, for Warhammer fans and LARPers, initally centered on The Old World, Empire of Man and Bretonnia mentioned.
Given the image bears the badge of Nuln... just how does one render a cannon LARP-safe?
There are a couple of hobbyists that made LARP cannons with compressed air and foam balls, but usually projectile weapons of all kinds are not allowed because of legal issues and common sense
Well that was a very disappointing reveal. The fact that they're not doing a starter box shows that they don't have much faith in this and aren't going to push it to any new people (also judged by 'it's not your starter wargame comments).
By failing to encourage new people into the game and providing a number of starting points, they're just setting it up for failure. I'm going to be so pissed off if they come out and say 'no new people were buying the range' in a few years. If bloody Necromunda can support a starter set, then TOW should be able to.
Vorian wrote: But HH doesn't have a starter, does that mean they have no faith in that?
Yeah my bad, it's been clarified on Twitter. GW classifies 'starter sets' as those paints/pushfits/bit of gak cardboard things that they put out alongside 40k/AOS at three price points. Not the traditional '2 armies/rulebook in a box' style releases, which everyone else calls starter sets.If we're getting the latter, then I'll retract my previous statement and it's a lot less of an issue.
Londinium wrote: Well that was a very disappointing reveal. The fact that they're not doing a starter box shows that they don't have much faith in this and aren't going to push it to any new people (also judged by 'it's not your starter wargame comments).
By failing to encourage new people into the game and providing a number of starting points, they're just setting it up for failure. I'm going to be so pissed off if they come out and say 'no new people were buying the range' in a few years. If bloody Necromunda can support a starter set, then TOW should be able to.
Serious question, do you even think there is a game?
No starter set. No release date. No nothing. 2025 at the earliest I say, and I now believe the whole thing was a stunt to take wind out of KoWs sails.
Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.
What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.
It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.
Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).
There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.
They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.
It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.
Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).
There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.
They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.
Yeah, and stuff like this would have been prime content to put into the actual presentation, and not just in the non-streamed Q&A session (i get that there are reasons for not streaming that, but you could, you know, have actual things and information in the organized part, not just 5 mostly empty slides and some filler art). As it stands, relevant info trickles through several layers of distortion before it reaches the wider community, and what one forum sees as readily apparent because they have an 'in' on the session seems like unhinged ramblings to another. It's a dumb approach championed by very dumb marketing/management people. They struggled to fill even half-hour slots anyway, i don't buy for a second that time was the issue here...
I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.
But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.
depends if they mean HH1 or HH2 as in HH1 it was mostly books and some minis with the plastic kit coming from board games
one problem here is, that the 3 Emperor is a similar setting to HH, a starter set with humans and resin upgrades to turn them into the 3 different factions, or even going further making one for each state would have sold and get things running
add Norsca and Kislev into it, Dwarfs and Orcs over the next years and keep the game going
this is what was expected when said, similar to HH
now it is old stuff Bretonnia and Khemri, with some Q&A answers that hint that the new plastic kits will be for units that were not there before rather than replacing old ones
which might be also similar to HH regarding the available units
if all this results in a rushed rule book just to make it this year without actual content, this won't fly
for an anniversary they could just re-release the 6th Edition book and Ravening Hordes book as Hardcover Premium Edition in 3 books (rules, army lists, background) and as bonus adding the 8th edition models to the game. Would do less harm than a rushed new game
After the Middle Earth "reveal" yesterday, my expectations were set to zero.
So was fairly happy with what came to light. Just give me a rulebook, the army lists and access to the old models and I'm good to go.
I am interested that we haven't seen Tomb King regiments yet in the same way that we've seen old school Bretonnian kits. Makes me wonder if they are going to re-do the TK skeletons to the same scale as Vampire Count skeletons.
But then the Tomb Guard would be out of scale (assuming they reissued that kit). Hmm...
Tyel wrote: I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.
But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.
Ultimately their current offer is 'some' Bretonnia and Khemri, two factions that were probably not among the top sellers, in an as-of-yet undetermined mix of plastic, FW resin and metal, in an as of yet unspecified release model, with rules coming in as of yet unspecified 'army book equivalents, and then a heap of promises that actually cool stuff would be coming some time in the future.
As i said before, they don't seem to know where they want to be going with all of this.
Judging by the facts that they are actually showing, and not by proclamations, promises and other things starting with 'p', it will be very daunting to start this game if you don't have a WHFB army already or can source a pre-owned one on the cheap; handling FW resin, possibly for whole regiments, is not something to look forward to, and there is a real risk plastics will come with limited availability, or important parts of each range as direct-only or even MTO. The game, as we have been shown it now, runs a very real risk of withering on the vine due to these concerns.
I love the old world as a setting, but all of this shapes up to a game that picks the worst parts of several different release models and consequently turns out as a stupid product nobody asked for.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.
A Horus Heresy level of support for TOW would come out to maybe 1 new plastic kit per faction on average. Which checks out with what was said?
For many here when it was revealed that the game would be set during an Empire Civil War, our assumption was it would see a HH 2.0 style release - "indexes" for legacy content on launch, with a launch release of a full armies worth of models that could be used to represent the various feuding Civil War factions, while they slowly rolled out additional factions over time.
A new hero/unit per existing WHFB faction just sounds kind of tedious tbh.
I agree with Blackfang. There are 16 armies for WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army. One or two plastic kits per year would not be pretty reasonable since GW's main focus is on 40K and their reskinned 40k, AOS.
Gallahad wrote: Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.
What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.
You know, I hadn't thought of it that way, but its not totally wrong. Crazy lack of detail here after years, and for a game where most of the work is really already done if they are not creating a ton of new kits.
Paymaster Games wrote: I agree with Blackfang. There are 16 armies for WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army.
no one, literally no one ever claimed that
never
this is the same bs is if people talking about better balance and someone comes around with "stop asking for perfect balance, this does not exist" now one did it, no one wants it
the point is simple, one reason why Bretonnia and Khemri did not sell well back in the old days was the mix of old and very old and new models that did not really fit together
if they now release that very mix of models again, why should it be different now
now ones wants all factions re-done at once, but we expect support that avoids the mistakes of the past and not repeating them hence at least 1 re-designed faction should be there
and we have already discussed how GW could add more than 1 with a minimum of afford
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.
It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.
Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).
There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.
They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.
Well sorry for not magically knowing about something that wasn't streamed, wasn't included in summaries that i've seen, and hasn't been mentioned in this thread before you randomly bought it up in a way that seemed to just be a theory without you including anything to directly support it, I guess.
I like most of what they have revealed:
-They will re-release old kits and even metal models to some degree, meaning you can expand your old army, or compleat the army you have tried to scrape together since the "post end times purge".
-The new stuff they are making are true to the style of the old range, perhaps just trying to fill some gaps in the lists and characters that need representation.
Now I would really like to know if they bring back old scenery kits And, you know, get a hint if the rules are contemporary new stuff or just a more stylish 6th edition rip-off.
Sathrut wrote: "New stuff for AoS unlikely to be ported back to WHF." - from screengrab
Just because GW won't port back new AoS units doesn't mean that the player community can't get the job done. The player base has created stuff for Necromunda and Titanicus that looks amazing (and has fewer errors than FW's rules).
Let's face it, those Freeguild Cavaliers look amazing. Someone somewhere will absolutely whip up a unit profile so they can be taken as a rare choice for Empire.
Gallahad wrote: Lol. What vaporware. Community waited what? Three(?) years for a couple middling resin characters? And no real info on what is coming. They can't even definitvely tell us what base sizes things will use.
What a joke. Very glad I've moved on to superior systems from companies that don't treat me with disdain.
Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.
As can be seen in this thread going back, I'ven been enthusiastic about ttb TOW, but it is clearly vaporware and will never be released in any meaningful way. I'd take an unedited release of 6th, 7th or 8th with the old models, but seeing how things are I gues WAP or KoW is more sensible to waste time on.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think people imagined something closer to Horus Heresy, given they said this would be the Horus Heresy to AoS's 40k.
A Horus Heresy level of support for TOW would come out to maybe 1 new plastic kit per faction on average. Which checks out with what was said?
For many here when it was revealed that the game would be set during an Empire Civil War, our assumption was it would see a HH 2.0 style release - "indexes" for legacy content on launch, with a launch release of a full armies worth of models that could be used to represent the various feuding Civil War factions, while they slowly rolled out additional factions over time.
A new hero/unit per existing WHFB faction just sounds kind of tedious tbh.
I think I expressed when they were peddling those Kislev concepts my suspictions that zero work had been done for TOW at the time and they were just stalling with assets created for Total War
Mentlegen324 wrote: I've been enthusiastic and even eager for ToW up until now, but some of this stuff has really started to sway me in the other direction.
No starter set just seems baffling. What was the last game GW released that didn't have a starter set of some kind? It's even more absurd when part of the reason WHFB was ended was because it wasn't easy to get into. Several armies being playable but seemingly not getting anything beyond that also feels bad.
It already feels like they don't know what they're really doing and are just making it all up as they go, with little thought. It comes across as bringing it back only to take it in a direction that'll result in it being discarded again.
Again, I think they're really doing a two phase release. It's taking a long time for them to get TOW out the door as a product, COVID no doubt screwed up the timeline and folks are rightfully getting impatient. Their doing phase 1 release of basically preexisting content and new rules to get the game back into people's hands and on their tables so as to not squander the hype any more than they already have while they continue working on "phase 2" which was their originally planned product launch (three emperors narrative stuff, launch box of two rival empire armies. etc).
There's absolutely no evidence of that, though. Nowhere has something like a "two rival empire armies" launch box been suggested, either before or now.
They said during the panel/q&a that the age of three emperors content would be coming later, well after the launch of the game and Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, etc, and that the Three Emperors stuff will be the main avenue of focus through which the games future would be developed, so that's pretty clearly evidence that it's a two-step product launch if first they are launching the game with free online rules for existibg kideld, etc and then later releasing new stuff. If they are going too have a big launch box like Horus Heresy, it's probably not going to be a box filled with old outdated kits, so that three emperors stuff is the likely candidate, and since they said three emperors won't be the initial release of the game.... do the math.
Well sorry for not magically knowing about something that wasn't streamed, wasn't included in summaries that i've seen, and hasn't been mentioned in this thread before you randomly bought it up in a way that seemed to just be a theory without you including anything to directly support it, I guess.
I hope they take away some feedback from this bs show and do seminars in the future that actually cover some stuff... the whole thing had this weird quarter-assed feeling about it, with the uninspired presenters giving off their best "I'd rather be down at the pub" impression, basically meaningless slides, tight lids on anything but background art and other 'unstealable' stuff like that, they even weirder no-show LOTR 'preview' and so on... all that stuff could easily have been condensed in a two-day event, and would probably have been received better for it. They still seem afraid of giving out information that they're not absolutely forced to reveal, contrary to the rest of the industry. The only unambiguously positive development among all this 3/5 star stuff is that they now do roadmaps for everything, that's more reassuring than getting a resin miniature of spanker Grabprick every quarter and then 10 weeks of total radio silence...
I find it odd that in 3 years, a multimillion pound company still hasn't managed to release a game they announced 3 years ago. A game that it has written 8 times already. It should be perfect by now.
Kickstarter companies manage more than a few maps and a few figures in the time GW have had, on a fraction of the money GW have.
Paymaster Games wrote: I agree with Blackfang. There are 16 armies for WHFB, It is really unreasonable to expect a brand-new plastic kit for every unit in every army.
I think initially re-doing two factions and injecting actual new players into the ecosystem via fresh plastic crack would have worked better than this nosebleed drip of content they're planning, but GW clearly disagrees.
Sounds an awful lot like the original announcement was made by someone who was on their last day and wanted to mess with the company!
I'm still treating this as nothing more than a chance to pick up some of the Tomb King kits I'm missing and nothing more. They bumbled through the presentation, kept the Q&A stuff offline (which had more info than the actual presentation, and is being fed back to the general fandom in the form of Chinese whispers on the forums. Can't wait for the youtubers to start embellishing more details from tomorrow! ) then backtracked on the no starter set news on twitter (ridiculous backtracking at that!)
It really seems like they either a- never intended this to become a project in the first place or b-lost key members of staff that were working on it and had to pivot the entire project. (Yes, covid delayed a lot of stuff. But if its as simple as a production delay why not just be honest about it?)
What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?
None of this makes any sense. Any enthusiasm I had for this project is completely gone from today's presentation. The old world should be the easiest sell in the world to 'existing' WFB players. Instead we get this mess.
What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?
It really does seem odd that some of the first big things we saw were Kislev and it was talked about for a while, we were told that Kislev and Cathay were designed for TOW and they even made rules, only to now say "Oh, actually that's a very long way away".
So in order to hype up this project, they showed something that isn't relevant to the actual launch / core of it.
RustyNumber wrote: Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!
And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.
I can't tell what parts of this post are real. 2010 did not herald a great edition of the game....
Sounds an awful lot like the original announcement was made by someone who was on their last day and wanted to mess with the company!
I'm still treating this as nothing more than a chance to pick up some of the Tomb King kits I'm missing and nothing more. They bumbled through the presentation, kept the Q&A stuff offline (which had more info than the actual presentation, and is being fed back to the general fandom in the form of Chinese whispers on the forums. Can't wait for the youtubers to start embellishing more details from tomorrow! ) then backtracked on the no starter set news on twitter (ridiculous backtracking at that!)
It really seems like they either a- never intended this to become a project in the first place or b-lost key members of staff that were working on it and had to pivot the entire project. (Yes, covid delayed a lot of stuff. But if its as simple as a production delay why not just be honest about it?)
What ever happened to idea that we would see things like Cathay and Kislev, after all those total war/old world articles they put up originally? Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab) and speculation that the empire civil war stuff will come later on. Why are they saying they are focusing on just armies that were active in the 'old world' region, but then also saying that all 8th Ed armies will be supported and then the lizardmen are getting new sculpts in the Q&A?
None of this makes any sense. Any enthusiasm I had for this project is completely gone from today's presentation. The old world should be the easiest sell in the world to 'existing' WFB players. Instead we get this mess.
If I remember right, CA clarified that the cathay/kislev rulebooks that GW wrote were just so the devs had a baseline to go off of. The books weren't written for the TOW line. That's not to say they won't be part of TOW, but a big part of their hype got dashed without much fanfare and anything in the game isn't indicative of what would be on the tabletop for TOW.
I have to ask what some of you what you were expecting?
I was very happy with the preview. it showed us quite a bit of information that we did not know before. Let's look at the info we had before this preview -
- Take place during the Three Emperors Period
- There are maps of the Old World, Cathey, and the Land of the Dead
- There is concept art for the Empire, Greenskins, Tomb Kings, Bretonnia and Kislev
- Base Sizes are being upped, although we do not know how big yet
- Some old Kits and models are returning (as expected based on previous art)
This is what we have learn from this preview -
- every army will be a mix of new and old model kits
- armies will be a mix of Resin and Plastic (I believe that Metal was brought up i do not remember where)
- 11 of the 16 armies will be getting army lists at launch (limited to the Army books of 8th edition)
- Tomb Kings and Bretonnia Will be the first two armies (This was expected)
Based on this we do not know enough to judge it up or down at this point.
lost_lilliputian wrote: So do all those rumours about getting a starter box launch just before Xmas this year seem a bit on the nose now?
I am not sure at this point. I read recently that GW is looking at balancing out the Combat Patrol/ Boarding Party boxes to make them more playable out of the gate. It is likely too early to get a balanced a kit like that for the Old World. Chances are some of those lists have not even been written yet much less play tested. We would likely see army boxes for the Tomb Kings and Bretonnia this Christmas, if i had to put money on it.
Another option would be an Empire civil war box with two empire forces made up of common state troops and a couple of heroes. The idea would be that you could have two small empire armies or one large empire army.
^Hmm Army Boxes would be a good thing at least. Interesting to see how they do that, as in only plastic kits or if they include resin or metal in there too.
I think in the past some Bretonnian knights included metal heads for the horses too with detailed icons/grails etc.
RustyNumber wrote: Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!
And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.
People have been quite positive towards TOW, but what do you think should be the reaction after the Warhammer Fest announcement of two drawings and a Tomb King hero? Its clear they have no game.
RustyNumber wrote: Ahahahaha oh boy, all the whinging and griping and doomsaying online is exactly what I expected with any TOW news. It really is like 2010 again!
And to add to that, I too am disappointed we only got to see two things and news about what material types minis will be released in.
People have been quite positive towards TOW, but what do you think should be the reaction after the Warhammer Fest announcement of two drawings and a Tomb King hero? Its clear they have no game.
Ah, but you see they DO have a game!
That game is uh... 8th edition warhammer fantasy, apparently. Which is I think not what people wanted or expected.
I'm disappointed because we have no idea when this game is coming out...we have an idea of base size, how the game will be supported, etc but no idea of when it will launch. Ideally within the next year but from what they've teased so far this game could still be 2-3 years out. For a game that's already been in development for at least 3 maybe 4 years, that's quite a long development cycle. My hope is they are trying to stick the landing with it and not just stringing us along for IP reasons like conspiracy theorists suggest.
It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.
Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.
Mallo wrote: Why has it suddenly become a release of nothing but old miniatures (and a couple of resin kits which look like they were cooked up by a 3D artist for a quick patreon grab)
If rather than ranting you would apply this useful skill taught in 1st grade called "reading" you would see new plastic kits are coming.
But naah. Ranting based on your imagination is much more in your style clearly.
- armies will be a mix of Resin and Plastic (I believe that Metal was brought up i do not remember where).
warhammer community wrote: and they’ll join a whole range of resurrected and revitalised miniatures from prior editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battles – in plastic, resin, and metal – to make satisfyingly varied armies.
lost_lilliputian wrote: So do all those rumours about getting a starter box launch just before Xmas this year seem a bit on the nose now?
Also was it Valrak who started that, or just repeated it?
Valrak was in the camp of 'Epic this year' and said things about TOW only two times (at least according to my summaries of his videos that's been running since January): once before Warhammerfest, literally just to mention that he has no idea what they'll show, and once before Adepticon where he mentioned that Seraphon will be dual-use. The starter box rumour imho came from speculation and has no definite source, i know that i myself have speculated as such and mentioned it in several threads as something that would be likely from a marketing point of view because of the 40-year anniversary. Others may have done so as well.
But HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.
TOW isn’t like that as there will be a much wider range of armies played.
It’s possible there will be a launch box available for a limited time, of course.
Breotan wrote: A starter box makes sense. After all, HH had them so why wouldn't the old world?
GW and everyone related like to tell you that HH never had a starter set
Starter Sets are well defined by GW and the Age of Darkness set is not a starter, therefore the misunderstanding as what GW means by that is something different as what people refer too
now be it the problem that people are not talking in GW language when asking questions or GW not understanding what people mean is another topic
but they just wanted to say that there won't be an easy to build new plastic starter set with Khemri and Bretonnia, just the same set but with regular models (at some point in time), which is totally not the same as a starter set (and dare you to leave the GW bubble to know that such boxes are named starter sets by other companies)
Souleater wrote: But HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.
TOW isn’t like that as there will be a much wider range of armies played.
It’s possible there will be a launch box available for a limited time, of course.
That's why the Empire civil war/time of three emperors was not the worst idea, you could have made it so, with 'generic' imperial forces and addon sprues for the factions. But alas, seems like that is coming much later, if at all.
Souleater wrote: But HH is primarily about Marines vs Marines. You can buy and split the box, or just by one for yourself and have by far and away the most used army in that game. The base models for both loyalist and traitor forces are the same models.
Lord of the Rings? Necromunda? Kill Team?
HH and AT are unique in that case and the only ones here. Yet I don't get the argument saying it makes sense for HH but not for TOW when GW actually said it will be a HH like box.
what is the point, GW clarified that it will be a HH like box, just not a starter set
nathan2004 wrote: I'm disappointed because we have no idea when this game is coming out...we have an idea of base size, how the game will be supported, etc but no idea of when it will launch. Ideally within the next year but from what they've teased so far this game could still be 2-3 years out. For a game that's already been in development for at least 3 maybe 4 years, that's quite a long development cycle. My hope is they are trying to stick the landing with it and not just stringing us along for IP reasons like conspiracy theorists suggest.
But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?
Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months
I think the real issue is that they have no game. And that IP matters somehow hence the very out of place card game about war in the old world last year or the one before. I think they also know it weakens the customer base of competitors like KoW and Conquest.
nathan2004 wrote: I'm disappointed because we have no idea when this game is coming out...we have an idea of base size, how the game will be supported, etc but no idea of when it will launch. Ideally within the next year but from what they've teased so far this game could still be 2-3 years out. For a game that's already been in development for at least 3 maybe 4 years, that's quite a long development cycle. My hope is they are trying to stick the landing with it and not just stringing us along for IP reasons like conspiracy theorists suggest.
But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?
Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months
I think the real issue is that they have no game. And that IP matters somehow hence the very out of place card game about war in the old world last year or the one before. I think they also know it weakens the customer base of competitors like KoW and Conquest.
It's wearing thin at this point, but Corona excuses at least part of that time frame.
Kickstarter chumps get Cash up-front, are not running dozens of concurrent production lines, do usually not have to care about feeding all the corporate overhead at all times, have no shareholders/board of directors to please, many of them fail to actually complete the games they promised, and there are several very relevant horror-stories where the game gets made in 6 months, but it actually takes years to ship it out to backers afterwards, or the chumps renege on the deal, take more money for shipment, cancel rewards and so on and so on.
Tl:dr - comparing extremely high-risk garage operations to an international corporation with worldwide distribution etc. is not exactly fair, in neither direction.
As for your last paragraph: yes, that seems increasingly likely, looks like they're aiming for the 'minimal viable product' they can put out and still satisfy some legal definition.
Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.
Logistically pretty difficult I would have thought. Is it one person from GW spitting on the entire hobby community? Is there a spittle department? Maybe that's why there's no release date yet for TOW, too busy trying to spit on all of us to produce miniatures.
Shall we get the incense and sounds of falling rain soundtrack vol. II out in this thread? Good grief.
I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?
GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.
Overall, good reveal for me, old models going back into production is excellent news and a steady increase in new ones over time as the game develops is exactly what I wanted from this.
GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.
The move to metal is interesting for a couple of reasons, it implies that they plan on keeping or even expanding their existing metal facilities and inhouse know-how for the forseeable future, which is interesting in itself. The cynic in me suspects it has to do with tightening environmental regulations in the UK
not really, it is the same with the made to order stuff, we see metal models for those that never got Fincast ones and even some older ones that were made in Finecast being back to metal
more like Finecast being finally out, old stuff returns in metal and new stuff made in classic resin
triplegrim wrote:But -why- do they need 6 years to release a game?
Kickstarter chumps operating out of their basement manages to make games in 6 months
Gimgamgoo wrote:I find it odd that in 3 years, a multimillion pound company still hasn't managed to release a game they announced 3 years ago. A game that it has written 8 times already. It should be perfect by now.
Kickstarter companies manage more than a few maps and a few figures in the time GW have had, on a fraction of the money GW have.
Because those companies want to make a game and need to launch it fast because otherwise people want their money back, tell KS that is not delivering and the company will be gone soon after
like doing nothing for years but an article once in a while to prevent people from wandering off is marketing, and GW does not need to do more. People rather wait 6 years for something than starting a non GW game as long as there hope that it will finally be there
why is GW not doing it faster? because they don't need to, they don't even need to deliver anything but just give a hind and people invest money and time into something that may never come (like any other company asking for different base size to play an existing game would see a shitstorm and people happily re-basing models for a promise)
so why should they try harder, because otherwise people start playing Kings of War?
Paymaster Games wrote:It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.
Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.
By now I am pretty sure the whole thing started of as a joke and they were surprised by the reactions and needed to come up with something
It sill looks like that GW thinks that no one is really interested in the IP, and Curse City fits in there as well (thought it will take years to sell the produced number of boxes and not minutes, with no backup plan and a panic reaction) with not expecting that there is huge interest for the setting
Not that there is doom upcoming, but everything shows that GW underestimates the demand and at the same time repeats the mistakes of the past (no full range-refresh on release of an army), which will lead to the same results
and if we get a "not a starter set" that they think will last years and is sold within minutes, there will be a problem
Mentlegen324 wrote:It really does seem odd that some of the first big things we saw were Kislev and it was talked about for a while, we were told that Kislev and Cathay were designed for TOW and they even made rules, only to now say "Oh, actually that's a very long way away".
So in order to hype up this project, they showed something that isn't relevant to the actual launch / core of it.
this is what lot of people said back than, they showed the stuff because they needed to show something and TWWH came in handy with new art never seen before
and it is easy to put a new label on artworks and write nice text on how this was made with the old world in mind (yeah well, it is a PC game in that setting of course it was made with Warhammer in mind and rules were made so that the designers of the PC game have something to work with)
Olthannon wrote: I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?
the hope that GW learns from mistakes and not repeating them
in addition, how bad of a presentation can you make were the main information that should have been on the slides need to come via Twitter an hour later
Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.
I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”
Army books could cover a few army’s considering GWs price for them.
Orcs and goblins already like it.
GW being GW so will probably be a massive success and GW will be surprised and unprepared and stuff it up.
Is it a for old players and won’t break it, or get new players in? I don’t know anymore.
Apple fox wrote: Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.
I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”
the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS
GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.
It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.
GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.
Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.
Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again.
Apple fox wrote: Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.
I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”
GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.
And new people who are interested in TOW/WHFB because of the video games. It would be absurd for them not to capitalize on that, but they don't seem to be.
GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.
The move to metal is interesting for a couple of reasons, it implies that they plan on keeping or even expanding their existing metal facilities and inhouse know-how for the forseeable future, which is interesting in itself. The cynic in me suspects it has to do with tightening environmental regulations in the UK
Or just they have all they need to do metal models right now so rather than redo metals in other material keep doing metal.
One could say they learned finecast wasn't popular so rather than turn metal to finecast they keep metal.
Yes. The lack of a release date and 2 resin heroes is spitting on us.
Logistically pretty difficult I would have thought. Is it one person from GW spitting on the entire hobby community? Is there a spittle department? Maybe that's why there's no release date yet for TOW, too busy trying to spit on all of us to produce miniatures.
Shall we get the incense and sounds of falling rain soundtrack vol. II out in this thread? Good grief.
I have to say for all of you stone cold cynics who dislike GW and yadda yadda, why did you get yourselves excited for this reveal and get pissy when you didn't get the answers you expected?
GW said right at the start that this was going to be years away and boy were they right on the money. This whole project is a slow burner with everything else going on, it's still comparatively a small development team working on it and I'm still fairly comfortable they will deliver. The new minis they showed prove to me they have the right aesthetic for WFB. I am not keen on the possiblity of a lot of resin (the material of the devil) but the fact that there will be metal minis is interesting.
Overall, good reveal for me, old models going back into production is excellent news and a steady increase in new ones over time as the game develops is exactly what I wanted from this.
Oh how snide you are. Real clever.
I think they have falsely advertised that they have a game when they do not. This is a fair thing to be disappointed at. Even the announcement at Warhammer Fest was just more of the same.
And I think it is clear they mostly did it as a stunt to try to keep the third edition of KoW from gaining steam or at best as a comarketing campaign towards TWWH or something. No way they actually will release something the next 24 months.
tneva82 wrote: You keep saying they have no game.
Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar
so you are claiming they have one?
can you proof it?
and if they have one, why no release date, or preview, or what style?
they don't even know what base sizes the new game will be using except for "some models will be on larger bases", which mean they don't say something, or they don't have something to say.
by all we have seen, heard and read, they don't have a game yet
Apple fox wrote: Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.
I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”
the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS
GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.
It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.
GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.
Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.
Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again.
Alternative history is a popular sub genre for both fantasy and sci-fi, it’s not even hard concept to sell.
If they do set it earlier, then it already highly risks altered history anyway if they find it’s a success and they need to work stuff in.
But maybe that’s been squished now, better to clean it up and have a vision to work from than what it feels we are getting now.
Another mess that GW will hopefully fix.
It would probably help AoS if they where to alternative history from that point as well. Since that setting still feels like they trying to work out what the hell they doing with it.
Apple fox wrote: Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.
I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”
the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS
GW has wound up with two fantasy lines that share a timeline (albeit rather loosely) and a model line (very strongly) and a theme - fantasy.
It is tricky to balance because they are the same firm there's a chance that they end up with one seriously doing well and the other doing ok to not well at all.
GW has old customers who want Old World; GW has new and old customers who want AoS.
Ignoring lore and story, the models and games are what matters most to GW because those are were they make their money.
In the end both might live happily side by side. It might be Old World does ok for a time, but ends up everyone just using them for AoS models and GW just ends up adding them in; or perhaps there's a massive swing back and AoS all but dies off.
Only time will tell. One good thing is that, in theory, if one game blazes ahead nad the other dies, GW can just roll them back together again.
Alternative history is a popular sub genre for both fantasy and sci-fi, it’s not even hard concept to sell.
If they do set it earlier, then it already highly risks altered history anyway if they find it’s a success and they need to work stuff in.
But maybe that’s been squished now, better to clean it up and have a vision to work from than what it feels we are getting now.
Another mess that GW will hopefully fix.
It would probably help AoS if they where to alternative history from that point as well. Since that setting still feels like they trying to work out what the hell they doing with it.
The biggest help would be if GW used the same bases on both game lines and just had one game with freeform movement and another with movement trays.
Overread wrote: Aye but I meant more in a product focus aspect rather than lore/story wise
I've seen this sentiment expressed before, but GW doesn't seem to have any issues supporting both 40k and HH. I'm not convinced there's any real threat of un-focusing their fantasy offerings here.
Tyel wrote: I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.
But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.
Roughly half the TOW/WHFB factions already have brand new plastic ranges:
- Lizardmen (just now)
- Chaos
- Daemons
- Goblins
- Skaven
- Ogres
- Vampires
And probably a couple more I'm forgetting about.
Then you also have all those units that could fit in old factions, like part of the Sylvaneth range, part of the Daughters of Khaine, ...
Bretonnia and TK were nuked, but then even the factions which had no refresh in AoS (Dwarves, High Elves, Empire (yet), ...) still have some 8th ed WHFB minis sold in AoS.
I think the issue from threads like this is people are clearly divided on "what they want". GW is in turn seemingly unsure on what they are going to give us.
I get the feeling some people just want the game and the old mini's back. In regards to Warhammer, you've somehow gone to bed and woken up in an alternate 2014~ where they've announced a new edition rather than End Times.
I can sort of get that - and I was in that camp for a while. Unfortunately though its been the best part of a decade and that matters outside the garages of immortal grognards. I just feel increasingly disconnected from the models all those years back. Sure, when GW release the rules I'm going to give them a go. But I can't see myself starting a new army that's mosty ancient kits. I can't see many people doing that.
Which will mean sales will be low and it won't be a success. When they start talking about "a whole range of resurrected and revitalised miniatures" in resin and metal it just doesn't feel like a serious modern release. Its just made to order writ-large.
As an Edit - I think it depends on how old is old. Some minis hold up. A lot don't. Even some of the 8th edition plastics are over 10 years old now - and will be older still by the time TOW is actually out. 7th edition is 15+ years old. 6th edition can be pushing 20. Saying minis are old enough to drink used to be a criticism of GW not refreshing them, not a motivation to get hold of them. If you've got that mostly 6th edition army and never got one unit then this is great news for you. But I can't see that attracted new people in.
People can "what about AoS" - but the issue is still there. GW keep wanting to lure me into say a Flesh Eater Courts army. I like the fluff - I don't really mind the models (although they are a bit samey). But basic ghouls are from 2008 and they look it. Do I really want GW to do an HD version of the kit at twice the price for half the minis? Not really - but it is putting me off. Giant Pig model looked cool. Are basic Black Orcs still okay? I guess its an okay kit - especially in a world where you don't have to worry about them ranking up. But... eh. I'm not convinced you'd start this.
Apple fox wrote: Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.
I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”
the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS
No, it doesn't. Fantasy has had multiple timelines before, the most prominent being The Enemy Within from WHFRP 1st Ed. which ended with Karl Franz dead and a new emperor on the throne. Tamurkhan was originally meant to be an alternate timeline as well.
I understand all of doom snd gloom here, but I am still optimistic. They wrote in the article, that there will be more model revails to come and new minis are in resin and in plastic aswell.
It worth noting that they want release 10th edition 40k in the upcomming months, if you where in there shoes would jeopordise the sales of that game with another, which is also loved dearly?
I don't find pinning it on 40k terribly convincing. Yes, of course GW wants the current focus on 10th ed 40k, but normally they seem happy to release a ton of stuff for the same system or setting back to back or almost back to back with little time for wallets to recover. We wouldn't expect The Old World before November. That's a lot of time to buy into 40k and still build up funds for The Old World. Compared to a lot of other GW releases anyway. Never mind that both Marines and Tyranids are as far removed from existing Fantasy factions as it gets, it's sci-fi versus fantasy, skirmish versus rank and file. You wouldn't expect the same audience to be interested. Some overlap, sure. But not to such a degree that 40k sales should take a dip if everyone planning on buying into The Old World held back on 40k.
More likely it's down to one of two things. Old World isn't a progression of something already up for sale, so GW really doesn't want to step out of their very narrow pre-release window for disseminating worthwhile information. We usually get marketing for things that are no more than three months out, but tangible information on the gaming side as well as release dates don't usually come even that far out. GW likes its secrets and is mortally afraid of 3rd parties getting any heads up on new things so as to get maximum sales out of everything before 3rd party alternatives pop up. It's enough for GW to forego any semblance of marketing and give us, well, exactly what we got.
The other thing is that with the probable Epic teaser, this year's Specialist game is Epic and The Old World simply isn't happening this year. That's plenty of reason for GW to tell us nothing because the release is still too far off. All we get is previews of things that are safe to show this far out. We know what a Bretonnian knight or a Tomb King look like, so they'll show them. We, and 3rd party manufacturers, have no concrete idea what base sizes GW intends to use, so they keep silent on it.
We all know GW likes to advertise their previews as the best thing ever and what to make of that claim. But in the cases of Adepticon and Warhammer Fest, we also know that these two events are the ones where GW likes to drop big announcements. I suspect being disappointed by the GW previews this time around has a lot to do with actually being able to believe this to be the time GW might genuinely drop big news. Turns out not to be the case for The Old World, but the hope was not completely unfounded.
Tyel wrote: I'm quite negative after this. Maybe as some people seem to be arguing it was a realistic tonic.
But ultimately if TOW is going to be models from 10-30 years ago (maybe some newer AoS on square bases, who knows), with a few Finecast characters and perhaps the odd new plastic kit, I'm just not interested.
Roughly half the TOW/WHFB factions already have brand new plastic ranges:
- Lizardmen (just now)
- Chaos
- Daemons
- Goblins
- Skaven
- Ogres
- Vampires
And probably a couple more I'm forgetting about.
Then you also have all those units that could fit in old factions, like part of the Sylvaneth range, part of the Daughters of Khaine, ...
Bretonnia and TK were nuked, but then even the factions which had no refresh in AoS (Dwarves, High Elves, Empire (yet), ...) still have some 8th ed WHFB minis sold in AoS.
Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?
chaos0xomega wrote: So far, there hasn't been much said about TOW that I find surprising, it's basically all "I told you so" levels of what I expected.
Actually I do find it surprising that there's no starter set, though from what I have seen/heard it sounds kind of like GW is launching TOW in 2 phases - phase 1 is core rules and legacy rules/models, phase 2 will come after which is focusing on the time of three emperors narrative. That phase 2 is expected out later, and I bet THAT is when a starter with new plastics will drop.
Maybe there's something to the rumours about reprints for Island of Blood and Battle for Skull Pass - these are pure plastic products, so they could crank them out without any S&H problems, and they're very popular boxes from what i gather.
I'll do backflips if they reprint Island of Blood at a reasonable price.
Hold your horses there, we ARE talking about GW...
Skaven and Ogres have some high quality kits from the tail end of WHFB, but IIRC all they got during the entirety of AoS was about 2 plastic heroes and 2 Underworlds gangs each...?
Apple fox wrote: Feels like management has no idea what to do with the project.
I think a lot of players would have been happy having the setting put back with “And we won’t blow it up, and continue from there.”
the problem is doing that means blowing up AoS
No it doesn't, any more than they needed to blow up WFB to do AoS. They did that because they thought they could get all the WFB players to jump straight into AoS. Instead, they could have made AoS a game about some sort of mythic past and gone from there, but they didn't. So now, they're (apparently) going to do TOW in the past of the WFB history, so that they can have both games concurrently, no need to blow up AoS.
There are very few situations of this sort where you can only have one thing or the other, and not both.
Guys, GW has a history of not releasing new information about other projects when a bigger release is about to hit the shelves. Allot of you are reading to much into this.
I understand that we want all of the information now. Hell I would like to see the ravaging hoards get you by lists for TOW even if I had no context to the rules so I can start painting and basing my army. But they are not going to do that.
Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar
Ok boss.
2 resin models and some retro drawings. What do they have?
Now don't be unfair, they also have half a regiment's worth of renders for Bretonian arms, and what amounts to a Tomb King accessory sprue. And a repainted studio army. That's not too bad for years of alleged development...
Newsflash: you aren't special snowflake that decides do they have game or not. You can keep repeating it but that just makes you repetual liar
Ok boss.
2 resin models and some retro drawings. What do they have?
Now don't be unfair, they also have half a regiment's worth of renders for Bretonian arms, and what amounts to a Tomb King accessory sprue. And a repainted studio army. That's not too bad for years of alleged development...
Not mention that they have old moulds for the WHFB models. We know they are going use those.
Also they stated that all 8th edition army is going to be useable, which can be an indicator, that they have rules for them. Which implies, that there is rulebook for the game.That another question, what condition are these books.
Paymaster Games wrote: Guys, GW has a history of not releasing new information about other projects when a bigger release is about to hit the shelves. Allot of you are reading to much into this.
I understand that we want all of the information now. Hell I would like to see the ravaging hoards get you by lists for TOW even if I had no context to the rules so I can start painting and basing my army. But they are not going to do that.
The solution there was to not put TOW on the list of previews for this event, and just sneak these two models in as a teaser or on WarCom.
GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.
Compare this to the Epic teaser, where people were expecting nothing, and got excited by a short video.
I can sort of get that - and I was in that camp for a while. Unfortunately though its been the best part of a decade and that matters outside the garages of immortal grognards. I just feel increasingly disconnected from the models all those years back. Sure, when GW release the rules I'm going to give them a go. But I can't see myself starting a new army that's mosty ancient kits. I can't see many people doing that.
Why not? There seems to be this pervasive idea that GW's only customers are old men who have been playing since the late 90's/early aughts. That just cannot be true given the success and penetration of their product lines. In the time since WHFB many potential customers will have developed (in some cases off the back of the popularity of things like Total Warhammer and Vermintide). A bunch of these potential customers will be people who don't play any miniatures game, but maybe played the videogames when they were younger and now have adult money to spend on bs. What will matter most is whether the resurrected kits compare favourably to other kits that are available on the market. And on that note,
Tyel wrote: As an Edit - I think it depends on how old is old. Some minis hold up. A lot don't. Even some of the 8th edition plastics are over 10 years old now - and will be older still by the time TOW is actually out. 7th edition is 15+ years old. 6th edition can be pushing 20. Saying minis are old enough to drink used to be a criticism of GW not refreshing them, not a motivation to get hold of them. If you've got that mostly 6th edition army and never got one unit then this is great news for you. But I can't see that attracted new people in
The "years old" counter on miniatures does not matter. What matters is the "generation" counter. Most, if not all, of the 8th edition releases are broadly in the same generation as current GW miniatures. Those 10-year-old minis still look better than Mantic minis, Frostgrave minis, Reaper minis, etc.
edit: Island of Blood is a perfect example of this. It came out ~13 years ago, but if it hadn't, and it released tomorrow, no tuned-in-to-GW individual on earth would think twice about it. Everything about its aesthetics and design accords with contemporary GW kits. It has jigsaw snapfits, monobuild dynamic action poses, sculpted magic and flames in the easy-to-break style, tactical rocks, etc.
Voss wrote: GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.
This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:
There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.
I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.
caladancid wrote: Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?
Skaven are still sold in AoS so they are considered a pretty decent range, it doesn't need a refresh to be sold under the TOW brand again.
Ogres have plenty of new stuff compatible with TOW, I think they are called Ogors now.
Voss wrote: GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.
This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:
There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.
I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.
This...I'm going to Alamo GT this week, Kansas City open first week of June, and Nova in August/September. Playing 40k at all these but would muchhhhhh rather be playing TOW from a comp perspective. Hence I was hoping for more substantial info so I could start mapping out my tourneys for Q4 2023 and Q1 2024.
I do wonder now if the cosplay announcement is set to coincide with the release of TOW. I think I saw Spring 2024 as when that product line would launch, is it meant to drop alongside TOW?
caladancid wrote: Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?
Skaven are still sold in AoS so they are considered a pretty decent range, it doesn't need a refresh to be sold under the TOW brand again.
Ogres have plenty of new stuff compatible with TOW, I think they are called Ogors now.
I think it's a travesty that they're still selling some of those janky old Skaven models to people who don't know any better.
Skaven feel a bit like Eldar, where part of the range is updated and great, and then part -- the Aspects/Clan units -- are gak.
Paymaster Games wrote: It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.
Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.
I'm not so much comparing it to 8th as much as suspecting that the way they've talked about TOW recently, it's going to end up as 8.5 rather than an actual new game/new edition.
My main interest is in the lore, which was never going to be good. The setting was deliberately written to be a dead end. The miniatures were always going to be too expensive, but a flood of great plastics would have tempted me and filled me with regret at missing out. Now I’ll have few regrets.
Every update leads to a renewed interest in the old lore, the good lore, as well as a spike in interest for new minis, third party if necessary. And there has never been a better time for GW to keep rubbing our faces in their inadequacies. One can buy 3D prints for each of these armies for a fraction of GW prices, and feel less guilty every update. The third party plastics market is in its golden age. Are they all GW quality? Maybe not, but they’re available and fine any time one decides to stop holding out for that perfect 10 that’ll never happen.
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
I find this complaint just odd. It's a specialist game, that's what they do for them, resin was to be expected. Necromunda and Horus Heresy both get resin miniatures all the time.
My main interest is in the lore, which was never going to be good. The setting was deliberately written to be a dead end. The miniatures were always going to be too expensive, but a flood of great plastics would have tempted me and filled me with regret at missing out. Now I’ll have few regrets.
Every update leads to a renewed interest in the old lore, the good lore, as well as a spike in interest for new minis, third party if necessary. And there has never been a better time for GW to keep rubbing our faces in their inadequacies. One can buy 3D prints for each of these armies for a fraction of GW prices, and feel less guilty every update. The third party plastics market is in its golden age. Are they all GW quality? Maybe not, but they’re available and fine any time one decides to stop holding out for that perfect 10 that’ll never happen.
Well C7 and to some extent Total War do alot more than I suspect GW will
Paymaster Games wrote: It is way to soon for the 8th edition comparison. The designers are likely young and were likely told to start with the models of 8th edition. IE the easiest models for them to put on the shelves with out much effort.
Once again this is way to soon to start shooting this down. Yes it is starting to take shape, but as of now we have no idea what that shape is yet.
I'm not so much comparing it to 8th as much as suspecting that the way they've talked about TOW recently, it's going to end up as 8.5 rather than an actual new game/new edition.
I am going to have faith that 8th edition is a distant memory. The main core rules for WHFB have not changed much since third edition, little tweeks here and there, but roughly the same. I really think the sticky wicket would be army composition and the magic systems. Those have changed with every edition (except 4/5 editions that shared army books), with the most balanced edition being 6th.GW said this will be a completely new edition that takes the best elements from previous editions. I have been burned by GW before, like most of you. I really do believe that GW has learned from the failure of 8th edition and will give us the edition we are looking for. Hey after the Old World is released and is complete trash, i have no problem eating crow on this one.
Paymaster Games wrote: Hey after the Old World is released and is complete trash, i have no problem eating crow on this one.
Good thing is in that case we can just revert to whatever edition we've been playing before ToW. At this point every community has likely figured out what they want from the game, so getting bad rules is not the end of the world.
I am hoping to play Warhammer in the stores again. It is hard to do when are using a dead version of the game. I really do hope that the Old World is going to be the game they told us it would be.
Voss wrote: GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.
This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:
There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.
I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.
It could also be that GW announced this 3 years ago and it's not unreasonable to expect them to have something to tell.
Why did they announce this so far in advance?
From outside the GW bubble it looks like they're trying to string along people's attention.
Apparently there are still people who would rather wait for what GW gives them than try games outside of GW.
GW best give those people a reason to keep waiting instead of wandering off and finding out there's a big wide world of wargaming where you can set your own terms on your hobby.
Voss wrote: GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.
This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:
There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.
I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.
It could also be that GW announced this 3 years ago and it's not unreasonable to expect them to have something to tell.
Why did they announce this so far in advance?
From outside the GW bubble it looks like they're trying to string along people's attention.
Apparently there are still people who would rather wait for what GW gives them than try games outside of GW.
GW best give those people a reason to keep waiting instead of wandering off and finding out there's a big wide world of wargaming where you can set your own terms on your hobby.
I do not know about the gaming clubs where you are, but in nearly every store/club in my area plays a GW game after warmachine/hoards died. So If i want to go out and play a game, do a campaign, or compete in a tournament i have to play a GW game. So i would like to play a game that i want to play at the local store. That is what i am looking forward too.
I do not know about the gaming clubs where you are, but in nearly every store/club in my area plays a GW game after warmachine/hoards died. So If i want to go out and play a game, do a campaign, or compete in a tournament i have to play a GW game. So i would like to play a game that i want to play at the local store. That is what i am looking forward too.
I find it hard to believe that's really true. I don't doubt that it looks that way from your point of view, but I suspect there's wargaming that you don't know about going on closer than you think.
Wargamers are not always good at advertising their presence, so it can be a challenge to find them though.
Voss wrote: GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.
This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:
There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.
I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.
GW put it on the official schedule for the event, and put it up on their website. I'm not sure what level of proof you're going to demand if you don't think 'Hey we're absolutely going to talk about The Old World' is evidence that they planned and announced they were going to talk about the Old World.
caladancid wrote: Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?
Skaven are still sold in AoS so they are considered a pretty decent range, it doesn't need a refresh to be sold under the TOW brand again.
Ogres have plenty of new stuff compatible with TOW, I think they are called Ogors now.
Ogres are, barring a few (2?) characters (one of which is very bad), entirely the 8th edition range.
Skaven still have old monkey skaven night runners from 5th or 6th edition, the fairly bad rat ogres/giant rats, plague monks and a lot of metal, particularly for Skryre stuff. They're still coasting on Isle of Blood era models and a few End Times things.
Paymaster Games wrote: I am hoping to play Warhammer in the stores again. It is hard to do when are using a dead version of the game. I really do hope that the Old World is going to be the game they told us it would be.
Too bad you don't live close to Indiana; we've been hosting a 6th Edition play date every month and will be doing so for the foreseeable future.
Voss wrote: GW created the expectation they'd have something significant to say, and then just... didn't.
This is the only thing I could find them mentioning it:
There’s plenty more to come from development diaries in the future – and you may just hear even more at Warhammer Fest, which kicks off on Saturday the 29th of April.
I think the rest is wishlisting by the community and rumormongers. My own particular disappointment is self-inflicted. Fantasy was my jam well before 40K and I just can't get into AoS.
GW put it on the official schedule for the event, and put it up on their website. I'm not sure what level of proof you're going to demand if you don't think 'Hey we're absolutely going to talk about The Old World' is evidence that they planned and announced they were going to talk about the Old World.
caladancid wrote: Skaven and Ogres have brand new plastic ranges do they?
Skaven are still sold in AoS so they are considered a pretty decent range, it doesn't need a refresh to be sold under the TOW brand again.
Ogres have plenty of new stuff compatible with TOW, I think they are called Ogors now.
Ogres are, barring a few (2?) characters (one of which is very bad), entirely the 8th edition range.
Skaven still have old monkey skaven night runners from 5th or 6th edition, the fairly bad rat ogres/giant rats, plague monks and a lot of metal, particularly for Skryre stuff. They're still coasting on Isle of Blood era models and a few End Times things.
Alright, I'll bite: what exactly is wrong with either the Rat Ogre or Plague Monk kits?
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.
GW put it on the official schedule for the event, and put it up on their website. I'm not sure what level of proof you're going to demand if you don't think 'Hey we're absolutely going to talk about The Old World' is evidence that they planned and announced they were going to talk about the Old World.
Well, to be fair, they did so for LotR too, and that turned out to be a Seminar which literally consisted of the Sentence 'Our hands are tied and we can't tell you anything at the moment, but at least we have one display miniature to show you' and then some stale hype about that single display miniature. Total waste of time.
As sculpts I guess they’re OK. They are a little plain and dull, but as they’re meant to be riddled with disease I would expect dynamic poses.
The kit however? I have never owned a box without quite significant mould slippage. Not just prominent mould lines, but actually slippage. Like the mould never actually lined up properly.
No it’s not too much of a challenge to fix, but it’s well beyond the realms of something I should have to fix.
As sculpts I guess they’re OK. They are a little plain and dull, but as they’re meant to be riddled with disease I would expect dynamic poses.
The kit however? I have never owned a box without quite significant mould slippage. Not just prominent mould lines, but actually slippage. Like the mould never actually lined up properly.
No it’s not too much of a challenge to fix, but it’s well beyond the realms of something I should have to fix.
The kit is now what, twenty years old? IIRC it came out with the 6th edition book in 2002, or was that with the Lustria Campaign Book in 2004? Either way it's a little over or a little under two decades. And i'd imagine that it's among those that see rather more wear and tear, the unit was quite popular in several incarnations of the game.
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.
Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades. No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.
resin is a super material. Its just GW that does not actually really do quality resin. (or affordable one for that matter).
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My main concern is availability and affordability. If the game is expected to actually grow enough and be relevant again, then GW would need to price even more humanly than they do with plastic HH and potentially lower the normal game size points.
Old world already was a massive time sink, often requireing far more models than the other GW alternatives. Being told that you'd need multiple boxes to field a unit is already an off putting issue for many.
It was annoying with chaos warriors already and those atleast brought some points meat to the table, skaven etc were just borderline unafordable, but worse it got with certain "new" end WHFB released units like the twohanders for the empire. Then there were availability issues, GW store exclusive key units like bestigores, chaos knights, etc. And that is were logistically we are already seeing issues with HH, 40k and AoS and then we get ToW ontop which has far more diffrent sets for diffrent factions due to them not sharing a core skeleton (compared to HH of course) and it's at this point were we also supposedly get epic that i get really sceptical.
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.
Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades. No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.
So you want plastic instead?
Then you get no model. It's not resin or plastic. It's resin or nothing.
You are person with zero business sense and would bankrupt gw in 6 months. Which seeing how big and profitable gw is requires impressive level of incompency.
What people like you forget is gw is in for profit, not destroying company for people's dreams.
Oh and your beloved plastic is reason why characters cost triple and amount of variety went down. No profit making multiple plastic commisar/ork weirdboy etc.
Alsy you plastic faith believers just keep shouting your slogans forgetting truth of right material for right job. Just because idea of using super glue is too hard
Much as resin is comparatively expensive at the consumer end (though it's almost on par with GW plastic sometimes), there's a sound reason they use it on the kits they do. Simply put, if they didn't have resin via Forge World for elements of the Specialist Games ranges, those models just wouldn't get made; the sales volume isn't there to justify it. The playerbase can (and probably do...) spend any amount of time arguing which sets do justify the plastic treatment over others but it isn't going to change their approach (unless, perhaps, if there's an unexpected level of interest in the game as happened with Blood Bowl in 2016).
Until we get a more tangible idea of what the range is going to look like then I'm reserving any sort of judgement.
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.
Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades. No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.
So you want plastic instead?
Then you get no model. It's not resin or plastic. It's resin or nothing.
You are person with zero business sense and would bankrupt gw in 6 months. Which seeing how big and profitable gw is requires impressive level of incompency.
What people like you forget is gw is in for profit, not destroying company for people's dreams.
Oh and your beloved plastic is reason why characters cost triple and amount of variety went down. No profit making multiple plastic commisar/ork weirdboy etc.
Alsy you plastic faith believers just keep shouting your slogans forgetting truth of right material for right job. Just because idea of using super glue is too hard
So GW can make like ten plastic event exclusive, store anniversary and so forth models yearly, that'll probably sell five total units combined, but will instantly go bankrupt if they put that effort into the launch for one of their most famous and anticipated games?
Ogres are, barring a few (2?) characters (one of which is very bad), entirely the 8th edition range. Skaven still have old monkey skaven night runners from 5th or 6th edition, the fairly bad rat ogres/giant rats, plague monks and a lot of metal, particularly for Skryre stuff. They're still coasting on Isle of Blood era models and a few End Times things.
This seems an odd stance considering the Bulls, Gnoblars, Ironguts, and Leadbelchers are also from 6th ed Fantasy like the Plague Monk and Rat Ogres.
FIamingUndeadRoman wrote: So GW can make like ten plastic event exclusive, store anniversary and so forth models yearly, that'll probably sell five total units combined, but will instantly go bankrupt if they put that effort into the launch for one of their most famous and anticipated games?
Makes sense to me!
Yeah. I don't know the economics of plastic vs resin - but the claim of "GW just can't do that" would hold up better if GW weren't doing exactly that elsewhere.
FIamingUndeadRoman wrote: So GW can make like ten plastic event exclusive, store anniversary and so forth models yearly, that'll probably sell five total units combined, but will instantly go bankrupt if they put that effort into the launch for one of their most famous and anticipated games?
Makes sense to me!
Yeah. I don't know the economics of plastic vs resin - but the claim of "GW just can't do that" would hold up better if GW weren't doing exactly that elsewhere.
It's a fair point ("five total units" hyperbole aside), the sticking point here is that we don't know what new stuff actually is coming for The Old World in plastic yet. Foot Knights seem a safe bet (probably what those renders of sword-arms were for) and 'something' for Tomb Kings at the very least. I'd imagine there's at least a bit more. I expect most new character models to be Forge World resins. Essentially what we see for Horus Heresy; that game just gets more plastic characters (and models in general) than other Specialist Games (coz Space Marines...).
That they're also going to be ramping up production on older plastic kits is also going to be a significant factor in the production capacity allotted to the project (arguably still sensible since it means there can be stuff available without having to wait on design/tooling). Whether those individual kits are good or desirable is a different question.
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.
GW has to earn that profit though.
If they want to put out something low effort anyone is free to find it disappointing and not buy it.
It's really the FAQ that gives the hint they really do seem to be very careful at best with the future of this Old World project line.
I do understand why they keep us in the dark for the base size change (they could have least told us for cavalry for example), but it's still frustrating to have had that answer. Fair enough, it's so that we're not sure what to print new miniatures for cheaper / rebase our old miniatures in advance.
Well...if there is no "real starter set" and they're focusing on 2 factions first then release gradually the rest, I guess it makes it more relevant to have an "early release".
I was a bit bumped with the previews being resin miniatures, I must say. But yeah, my expectations certainly got lower now.
They aren't going to give away base sizes till after the game shows up because they don't want to lose out on any possible sales. If they were to tell you base sizes now, even if they are totally new sizes, Etsy and the like would have them up for sale in bulk before we even got screen grabs.
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.
Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.
Wholly agreed. It's a waste every time they do it, honestly.
Ogres are, barring a few (2?) characters (one of which is very bad), entirely the 8th edition range.
Skaven still have old monkey skaven night runners from 5th or 6th edition, the fairly bad rat ogres/giant rats, plague monks and a lot of metal, particularly for Skryre stuff. They're still coasting on Isle of Blood era models and a few End Times things.
This seems an odd stance considering the Bulls, Gnoblars, Ironguts, and Leadbelchers are also from 6th ed Fantasy like the Plague Monk and Rat Ogres.
It wasn't really a stance, more informational, given the context was the current AoS ranges being backported to TOW. My phrasing may have been confusing, but ogres are essentially the same army they were at the end of WFB. The skaven range is cut up into very distinct production eras.
But in general, the plastic ogre models are much better than the old skaven plastics.
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.
Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash. If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades. No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.
So you want plastic instead?
Then you get no model. It's not resin or plastic. It's resin or nothing.
You are person with zero business sense and would bankrupt gw in 6 months. Which seeing how big and profitable gw is requires impressive level of incompency.
What people like you forget is gw is in for profit, not destroying company for people's dreams.
Oh and your beloved plastic is reason why characters cost triple and amount of variety went down. No profit making multiple plastic commisar/ork weirdboy etc.
Alsy you plastic faith believers just keep shouting your slogans forgetting truth of right material for right job. Just because idea of using super glue is too hard
So GW can make like ten plastic event exclusive, store anniversary and so forth models yearly, that'll probably sell five total units combined, but will instantly go bankrupt if they put that effort into the launch for one of their most famous and anticipated games?
Makes sense to me!
Special edition models that they no doubt sell quite a large amount of due to it being a limited time thing, that also exists to get people into a GW store and spending money on other things while there, and times up limited space because they're temporary/made to order, seems like a bit of a unfair comparison compared to just a general low-volume selling miniature.
streetsamurai wrote: The tomb king is a really nice model, but it being resin does seems to imply that as i feared, this will be a low investment affaire
All plastic was never on cards. You are going to get new resin as well as new plastic. Tough. Life is. Gw is for profit and not charity. Deal with it.
Once again, you seems overly concerned about what i think and how i spend my money. And as i said before, i have no intention of engaging in a discussion with you, so you cant stop trying "triggering" me
kodos wrote: and what is the reason a Khemri Army Box with all new model cannot be such a limited release?
Nothing, really. But here, these new miniatures are clearly characters so it's true they're not intended to be bought by dozens for a same player. More likely one or two. Since they seem "chilly" on this project so far, I can see why they don't see the interest to put the same investment than, say, AoS's choice of making generic characters plastic.
I'd prefer to build a plastic hero character for sure...but on the other end, GW's current resin isn't as bad as it was. It's not "crap" per se, but I totally understand not enjoying building them.
Anyway, GW will always have the final word as for the material they decide to use for their Old World miniature range, and we customers will get to see if that's worth it or not.
kodos wrote: and what is the reason a Khemri Army Box with all new model cannot be such a limited release?
Because even a variety of small cha4acter sprues take up far less tooling and casting time on the machines than even a single unit using full size frames, much less multiple units.
It's genuinely disheartening how many people seem to want to do away with resin, most don't seem to realise how vital it is, both in terms of the higher level of fine detail that it holds and also the fact that it allows GW/FW to make models that otherwise wouldn't be given the production green light due to cost.
Uptonius wrote: Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash.
Oh dear. Describing something that you don't like as "trash" is never a good look
Uptonius wrote: If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
This is a ridiculous statement. Your hyperbole is off the scale.
Uptonius wrote: I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
I bought two Iron Crawlers, I absolutely love the model. Refusing to buy a model because of the material it's made in really doesn't make sense to me.
Uptonius wrote: They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
It's not possible to know whether or not this is true. Regardless, you don't understand the factors involved when GW decide whether or not to cast a model in resin.
Uptonius wrote: GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
Of course they want to sell as many models as they can, you just don't understand the decision making and logistics involved.
Uptonius wrote: Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
It's hard to take you seriously when you refer to mediums other than HiPs plastic as "garbage" or "trash". Resin is better than plastic when it comes to holding fine detail. This is a fact. I, and others like me, will happily do the extra work required with resin models because when it comes to fine detail it is superior to plastic.
Uptonius wrote: No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades.
That's sad, Necromunda is a fantastic game that I've only recently started playing. The resin upgrades are the cherry on top of a delicious cake. You and your colleagues are missing out.
Uptonius wrote: No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.
Titans are rarely seen on tabletops, mostly because they are very expensive, as well as being a massive investment in hobby time. If there were no resin titans there would be no titans, full stop. Most resin models produced by FW/GW are resin because it wouldn't make financial sense to produce them in plastic, mostly due to the larger cost for the molds.
It would be nice if people had a basic understanding of the factors involved in model production before they have an anti-resin rant...one day, maybe?
If you’re going to have to buy resin, you might as well get some value for your dollar. Check out this not-Tomb Kings army for $125. I went in on the kickstarter, and the minis I received were good quality, mostly one or two pieces, and superior in casting to any Forgeworld resins I bought in the 2000’s/early 2010’s. They’re a good height, although the heavily armed HQ character is a but hunched over, and could use a tactical rock base for a more imposing height.
Theophony wrote: They aren't going to give away base sizes till after the game shows up because they don't want to lose out on any possible sales. If they were to tell you base sizes now, even if they are totally new sizes, Etsy and the like would have them up for sale in bulk before we even got screen grabs.
Made a mold for 30mm squares yesterday and will cut a 30 X 60 cav mold next week. Will have them injection molded just in case that is the correct size.
Already have 32 X 50 for flames of war but doubt they will use that size. And if they go to 32mm square will knock them out as well.
So your prediction is quite accurate.
I have a lot of minis to rebase.......................
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If you’re going to have to buy resin, you might as well get some value for your dollar. Check out this not-Tomb Kings army for $125. I went in on the kickstarter, and the minis I received were good quality, mostly one or two pieces, and superior in casting to any Forgeworld resins I bought in the 2000’s/early 2010’s. They’re a good height, although the heavily armed HQ character is a but hunched over, and could use a tactical rock base for a more imposing height.
Maybe it's the paint job, but they look pretty bad.
It's genuinely disheartening how many people seem to want to do away with resin, most don't seem to realise how vital it is, both in terms of the higher level of fine detail that it holds and also the fact that it allows GW/FW to make models that otherwise wouldn't be given the production green light due to cost.
Uptonius wrote: Then maybe they should stop selling their resin trash.
Oh dear. Describing something that you don't like as "trash" is never a good look
Uptonius wrote: If you read the comments on videos about new model releases you'll see about 90% of people will just not pay for resin no matter how great the model is.
This is a ridiculous statement. Your hyperbole is off the scale.
Uptonius wrote: I want a fleet of ridge/iron crawlers for Necromunda but once they revealed the upgrade was a FW kit it was dead in the water.
I bought two Iron Crawlers, I absolutely love the model. Refusing to buy a model because of the material it's made in really doesn't make sense to me.
Uptonius wrote: They lose thousands if not hundreds of thousands in sales limiting items to resin.
It's not possible to know whether or not this is true. Regardless, you don't understand the factors involved when GW decide whether or not to cast a model in resin.
Uptonius wrote: GW is for profit but they're not exactly about selling as many models as possible. We're that the case they would actually be ready for their release dates and would do proper preorders.
Of course they want to sell as many models as they can, you just don't understand the decision making and logistics involved.
Uptonius wrote: Perhaps the non-resin crowd is move vocal that people willing to work with inferior garbage. So you just don't hear people talking about their resin kits very often.
It's hard to take you seriously when you refer to mediums other than HiPs plastic as "garbage" or "trash". Resin is better than plastic when it comes to holding fine detail. This is a fact. I, and others like me, will happily do the extra work required with resin models because when it comes to fine detail it is superior to plastic.
Uptonius wrote: No one plays Necromunda in my area because of the resin upgrades.
That's sad, Necromunda is a fantastic game that I've only recently started playing. The resin upgrades are the cherry on top of a delicious cake. You and your colleagues are missing out.
Uptonius wrote: No one plays anything other than plastic HH models. No one really plays titans... They might own one or two (or in one guys case an entire friggin Legio) but they don't actually use them.
Resin needs to be removed from all of GWs products ASAP.
Titans are rarely seen on tabletops, mostly because they are very expensive, as well as being a massive investment in hobby time. If there were no resin titans there would be no titans, full stop. Most resin models produced by FW/GW are resin because it wouldn't make financial sense to produce them in plastic, mostly due to the larger cost for the molds.
It would be nice if people had a basic understanding of the factors involved in model production before they have an anti-resin rant...one day, maybe?
You wouldn’t hear any complaints about resin if GW made high quality resin models. Instead, it’s a crapshoot whether you will get the infamous sweating resin or a corkscrewed sword (exaggeration but only a bit haha), or a clean model with great detail. People pay money for premium products, they actually expect premium products.
If it's just a question of "what can I have for that amount of money ?", you will always have an answer that gives "more value" - in the end, it all depends of people's situations.
I mean, I own a 3D printer, so I obviously will be able to print way more for the equivalent I buy in material than any company may offer as "finished" products. But that's not counting the amount of work needed to cure, build, remove print lines, and so on.
Yeah, there are equivalent of Tombs Kings of various quality and various prices, but in the end it's just a question of what the customer really want to achieve and obtain. Is it just for collection ? For playing ? For playing in official tournaments ? Depending of the answer, it shuts down some doors and open others.
For example, if I want to play in official Old World GW tournaments, I'm obviously not investing my time and money in buying obvious "copies / proxies" or using the old base size. Because I know it will close options to me if I do it.
It's a Hobby that is time consuming, after all. There's no value if it doesn't fit your purpose for it. That's why money isn't the only factor here.
You wouldn’t hear any complaints about resin if GW made high quality resin models. Instead, it’s a crapshoot whether you will get the infamous sweating resin or a corkscrewed sword (exaggeration but only a bit haha), or a clean model with great detail. People pay money for premium products, they actually expect premium products.
You left out 'warped and brittle,' which was distressingly common in the handful of FW bits I've bought. The chunky ork totem pole was fine (well, after a lot of fuzz cleanup), as were some of the small tau bits. The AI flyers were decidedly not.
But yeah, I'm less interested in GW's bottom line and more in good models. So FW resin (not as bad as finecast) doesn't terribly impress me.
You wouldn’t hear any complaints about resin if GW made high quality resin models. Instead, it’s a crapshoot whether you will get the infamous sweating resin or a corkscrewed sword (exaggeration but only a bit haha), or a clean model with great detail. People pay money for premium products, they actually expect premium products.
You left out 'warped and brittle,' which was distressingly common in the handful of FW bits I've bought. The chunky ork totem pole was fine (well, after a lot of fuzz cleanup), as were some of the small tau bits. The AI flyers were decidedly not.
But yeah, I'm less interested in GW's bottom line and more in good models. So FW resin (not as bad as finecast) doesn't terribly impress me.
The FW items that you mentioned are all at least ten years old IIRC, it sounds like your experience with FW resin was quite a few years ago? The quality of FW resin these days is much, much better than it was back then.
None of the FW models that I have purchased in the past few years has had any problems, apart from the often-mentioned, godforsakenly stubborn mold-release agent.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If you’re going to have to buy resin, you might as well get some value for your dollar. Check out this not-Tomb Kings army for $125. I went in on the kickstarter, and the minis I received were good quality, mostly one or two pieces, and superior in casting to any Forgeworld resins I bought in the 2000’s/early 2010’s. They’re a good height, although the heavily armed HQ character is a but hunched over, and could use a tactical rock base for a more imposing height.
Maybe it's the paint job, but they look pretty bad.
It might be the paint job or the quality of the pictures. In real life, the sculpts are solid, superior to the plastic basic skeletons, and cheaper to boot. They are not Forgeworld quality sculpts, but their castings are better. Games Workshop charges far, far above market conventions for resin miniatures, and their sculpts are not worth the vastly extra cost. If you need the brand name to take in the brand store, that’s understandable if unfortunate. If not, I don’t see why you would want to choose expensive and outdated skeletons for the core of your army if you don’t need to.
I think lost kingdom makes some fantastic not tomb kings, bit it would require a high 3d printer to get the best out of it.
Anyway the resins look good and with no major flaws. I would prefer that GW cast these kinds of models in metal. GW are quite good at casting in metal and it would not bet that expensive since they already set up for mass production in metal and would likely be cheaper for the long run.
As to the tomb king weapons we saw earlier, I think it may go to a updated 4 edition mummy unit. All of the weapon looked like they went to some kind of foot tomb prince or king, but with the release of the new resin tomb king model and the fact Bretonnia is getting foot knights this kind of makes sence and fits into taking the best from each edition to create a new edition.
Paymaster Games wrote: I think lost kingdom makes some fantastic not tomb kings, bit it would require a high 3d printer to get the best out of it.
Anyway the resins look good and with no major flaws. I would prefer that GW cast these kinds of models in metal. GW are quite good at casting in metal and it would not bet that expensive since they already set up for mass production in metal and would likely be cheaper for the long run.
As to the tomb king weapons we saw earlier, I think it may go to a updated 4 edition mummy unit. All of the weapon looked like they went to some kind of foot tomb prince or king, but with the release of the new resin tomb king model and the fact Bretonnia is getting foot knights this kind of makes sence and fits into taking the best from each edition to create a new edition.
I though GW sold off their metal fabrication equipment years ago, I thought it might even have gone to Infinity. It was right before they switched everything to finecrap, I could be wrong about where it went, but the costs of metal and the expansion of their plastics production meant things got cheaper and faster to make in plastics.
Lost kingdom make fantastic .stl files. I love the Chaos Dwarves I have from them.
I though GW sold off their metal fabrication equipment years ago, I thought it might even have gone to Infinity. It was right before they switched everything to finecrap, I could be wrong about where it went, but the costs of metal and the expansion of their plastics production meant things got cheaper and faster to make in plastics.
GW are still casting part of the LotR range in metal, so they have some capacity.
Paymaster Games wrote: Fine cast is a casting medium that uses the same spin casting equipment that is used in metal casting. So yes they have the equipment on hand.
I was under the impression that Finecast was a miscasting medium...
I though GW sold off their metal fabrication equipment years ago, I thought it might even have gone to Infinity. It was right before they switched everything to finecrap, I could be wrong about where it went, but the costs of metal and the expansion of their plastics production meant things got cheaper and faster to make in plastics.
GW are still casting part of the LotR range in metal, so they have some capacity.
They sell some metal skaven too. And ikit claw can not be cast in anything else than metal I've heard.
Love the old art work, so much fun I had playing against Skaven - the game would swing wildly sometimes one way or the other but it was always a good time.
Skaven was my first GW army many decades ago. I've always loved the older sculpts above the newer ones. Just started printing out a Skaven Bloodbowl team this week and love the models as they are a throwback to this style.
The Eighth Edition For Life forum might have something to say about that.
No, it won't have any impact on what GW does, but just like 7th and 8th and AoS didn't turn 6th into a distant memory, I don't expect TOW to completely erase 8th either.
As sculpts I guess they’re OK. They are a little plain and dull, but as they’re meant to be riddled with disease I would expect dynamic poses.
The kit however? I have never owned a box without quite significant mould slippage. Not just prominent mould lines, but actually slippage. Like the mould never actually lined up properly.
No it’s not too much of a challenge to fix, but it’s well beyond the realms of something I should have to fix.
Hunh. I got a couple boxes a long time ago, and I don't recall the mould lines being all that bad. Makes me wonder if you got a bad batch run by someone who didn't really know what they were doing.
Then you get no model. It's not resin or plastic. It's resin or nothing.
No, it's GW plastic... or I get plastic from another company. GW resin is trash. It's always been trash, and I don't see them being smart enough for it to STOP being trash anytime soon.
And let's face it. There are plenty of competitors out there making 'not-GW-compatible minis, honest!' that in the end, GW is quite expendable from a gaming standpoint. So long as my FLGS is not a GW store, GW minis are totally irrelevant.
You are person with zero business sense and would bankrupt gw in 6 months. Which seeing how big and profitable gw is requires impressive level of incompency.
What people like you forget is gw is in for profit, not destroying company for people's dreams.
We'll see what their resin sales are like, compared to what their similar plastic kids of the past. That will tell the tale far better than any amount of name-calling.
Oh and your beloved plastic is reason why characters cost triple and amount of variety went down. No profit making multiple plastic commisar/ork weirdboy etc.
The only argument you've made so far that makes any sense. But then, I tend to covert my characters from other kits, so Offical GW Character Minis (TM) are a distinctly small percentage of my character models so it holds little weight for me.
Alsy you plastic faith believers just keep shouting your slogans forgetting truth of right material for right job. Just because idea of using super glue is too hard
Ever glue metal minis? Compared to that, resin is modeling on easy mode. Been there, done that.
MaxT wrote: You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models
So do I, but that's for a rather specific reason: I tend to fiddle around with poses, convert and re-use models and parts a lot, and super glue allows me to "break" them apart relatively easily if I ever happen to change my mind.
My experience (back when I used both for different materials or mixed materials) was plastic glue was far more (and unnecessarily) messy, and tended to get worse in the bottle over time.
Switched to superglue entirely and had a much easier time of it.
I’ll give you the subassembly painting point. Counter intuitive to me, but that would make sense for superglue…assuming you already assembled things like paired arms with a gun using plastic glue to get the fit right.
MaxT wrote: You must think I’m a freak, I use superglue on plastic models
So do I, but that's for a rather specific reason: I tend to fiddle around with poses, convert and re-use models and parts a lot, and super glue allows me to "break" them apart relatively easily if I ever happen to change my mind.
Depending on the complexity, it's usually pinning (if needed), super glue and then green stuff to support and clean up gaps and transitions. Plastic cement doesn't help when various materials are involved.
Then there's also the matter of rebasing, swapping to a different weapon after a rules change or needing a specific bit for a different miniature. Super glue bonds are just more flexible in that regard.
However, I can totally understand people just wanting their miniatures to be welded together, it's just a different approach.
Voss wrote: My experience (back when I used both for different materials or mixed materials) was plastic glue was far more (and unnecessarily) messy, and tended to get worse in the bottle over time.
Switched to superglue entirely and had a much easier time of it.
There is nothing inherently messy about plastic glue/Polystyrene Cement. It sounds like you maybe had a batch of poor quality stuff?
Tamiya poly cement is perfect for neat, non-messy work, it comes in a glass bottle with a small brush attached to the lid, amazing stuff.
It doesn't get worse over time either, unless you leave the top off the bottle for a long lengthh of time.
I have found that any needle point applicators for plastic glue get very easily blocked when the glue part cures in the needle.
Though I've also found the best way to clear it is to take the needle out and put it under a flame - eg a match or lighter. Just be sure to be holding the needle with tweezers or such (cause it will get hot) and to run the flame over the whole length and it will burn it out
Overread wrote: I have found that any needle point applicators for plastic glue get very easily blocked when the glue part cures in the needle.
Though I've also found the best way to clear it is to take the needle out and put it under a flame - eg a match or lighter. Just be sure to be holding the needle with tweezers or such (cause it will get hot) and to run the flame over the whole length and it will burn it out
I like Tamiya bottles of plastic glue for this reason, as they have a little brush as part of the bottle cap that is always just sitting inside the glue, ready to be used.
) then backtracked on the no starter set news on twitter (ridiculous backtracking at that!)
