Forgive me if I don't mourn quite as loudly as you
Forgive me if we weren't debating the fact whether vehicles were overpowered in 5th or not. Some people haven't even understood how things have changed and how drastically easier they are to kill now. You asked me to point out a non-Necron example and I did and your only response is "Yeah that makes sense! They should die faster!" which is totally irrelevant.
I also agree that it's a good thing they die faster. Krak missiles now do similar damage to AV12 vehicles as they do to Tyranid monsters, instead of the Trygon getting blown out of his socks while the 50 point Chimera just gets some shakes and stuns and other superficial damage. However don't mistake this system to be anywhere close to perfect. Some weapons are very effective against vehicles, and some vehicles simply don't have enough hull points for their price tag considering how easy it is to remove them.
edit: I Think my rumour addled brain made up a rule, seems the situation has been resolved.
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Therion wrote:
Forgive me if I don't mourn quite as loudly as you
Forgive me if we weren't debating the fact whether vehicles were overpowered in 5th or not. Some people haven't even understood how things have changed and how drastically easier they are to kill now. You asked me to point out a non-Necron example and I did and your only response is "Yeah that makes sense! They should die faster!" which is totally irrelevant.
I also agree that it's a good thing they die faster. Krak missiles now do similar damage to AV12 vehicles as they do to Tyranid monsters, instead of the Trygon getting blown out of his socks while the 50 point Chimera just gets some shakes and stuns and other superficial damage.
No my response was, "yeah that makes sense, just because they die faster than they used to does not make them useless trash that isn't worth taking because it will die too easily".
Your premise that GW has left vehicles paper thin just seems preposterous, they are more fragile but still sturdy enough to serve a role in the game.
Joey wrote:
My mech guard will outshoot necrons easily, no matter how easy it is to remove hull points (btw a full unit of necrons rapid firing will only do 2.2 hull points, not enough to kill a chimera).
It's 4.4 actually.
6.6 if they have a Phaeron.
20 shots, divided by 2/3 is 12.2, divided by 6 is 2.2.
Or do necrons get 4 shots each when they rapid fire?
If they're more fragile then their points need to reflect this change. If it suddenly becomes half as hard to kill a Land Raider, then it's not worth the points you pay for it.
just because they die faster than they used to does not make them useless trash that isn't worth taking because it will die too easily".
I think it's because I live in the same world where Tyranid monsters were useless overpriced trash in comparison to vehicles. That's the competitive world. Many vehicles now belong to that same category. Fight and rage against this metagame shift all you want. A year from now the masses have finally moved and the army lists out there don't look anything like they did in 5th. Those who want to be ahead of the curve are as we speak building new armies.
Joey wrote:
My mech guard will outshoot necrons easily, no matter how easy it is to remove hull points (btw a full unit of necrons rapid firing will only do 2.2 hull points, not enough to kill a chimera).
It's 4.4 actually.
6.6 if they have a Phaeron.
20 shots, divided by 2/3 is 12.2, divided by 6 is 2.2.
Or do necrons get 4 shots each when they rapid fire?
No, but a full squad is 20 warriors, not 10...
Fair enough, I didn't know that.
Still if a necron player has a few squads of them on the field, the guard will blow them to smithereens before they get in range to glance the guard's vehicles to death.
Rapid Fire: double tap up to 24” if stationary. 1 shot at 24" or 2 shots at 12" if moving. Relentless gives and extra shot at each range if stationary as well as the standard bonus.
Ohh, does that make Tau suits nice?, 3 plasma rifles shots at range 24, twin linked even (ok that might be a bit expensive still).
Necrons are starting to look like the FotM codex...when are they redoing the IG codex...
They're up there but IG is brilliant too, possibly even better. The officer of the fleet really screws up with enemy flyers, and the IG can take 9 Vendettas (translation: as many as the points limit realistically allows) of their own if they want. The Necrons need to ally with IG to get an officer of the fleet of their own The IG on the other hand ally with Necrons to get a couple Solar Pulses...
Necrons are starting to look like the FotM codex...when are they redoing the IG codex...
They're up there but IG is brilliant too, possibly even better. The officer of the fleet really screws up with enemy flyers, and the IG can take 9 Vendettas (translation: as many as the points limit realistically allows) of their own if they want. The Necrons need to ally with IG to get an officer of the fleet of their own
Begrudging allies (or whatever it's called) means army wide things like that don't get passed on, so 'crons wouldn't benefit from MOTF/Astropath.
All Imperial armies, however, would.
Begrudging allies (or whatever it's called) means army wide things like that don't get passed on, so 'crons wouldn't benefit from MOTF. All Imperial armies, however, would.
Officer of the Fleet doesn't affect the Necron/IG army, and neither does Solar Pulse. They affect the enemy army.
Grot 6 wrote:So bottom line, for thoe of you who've seen the new book...
Is the game worth staying with? OR is it past the point of no return?
How do you like the new changes?
I haven't seen the book (GW's keeping it tightly under wraps), but are a few new rules going to deny you the pleasure of hobby goodness and effectively have wasted all the time and money you put into your army. Rules that may seem ridiculous now might not be later. If anything, they should get better as new codexes are released.
That being said, GW really needs to focus on the codexes now. We don't need new fluff, new units, ect... just give us 6th rules and point values!!!!!!!
Whilst vehicles are almost certainly more fragile, infantry suffer from reduced cover saves also, whilst - more importantly - vehicles are apparently both more mobile/faster and able to fire more weapons at once.
To me, this suggests the changes aren't all 'one-way', whilst vehicles may adopt more of a glass-hammer type role, as they try to unload as many shots as they can before they're destroyed.
IMHO, this still damages expensive vehicles such as Land Raiders, but cheaper, gun-heavy tanks such as Predators could benefit from these changes.
Pre-ordered this afternoon - at present my only worry is that psychic powers are as overpowered as I now find magic in WFB - but hopefully not as many armies don't have them.
Very very glad to hear pre-measuring is apparently in and most of the rest of the stuff sounds fun but until I have it my hands can't be sure.
oh and nice bit of fluff by Chexsta - thnx
Dark Eldar and Daemon allies - not impossible - several times in the codex they do it.............
Some odd ones though - Sisters more likely to ally with Blood Angels than Black Templars - I Idont think so- bit silly given the outlooks and nature of the Chapters.
Im really not getting all this complaining about vehicles, in my opinion, in 5th edition vehicles are too hard to actually kill, but are annoying easy to disable, since most damage always equates to not being able to shoot.
Now vehicles are easier to kill, which is good. Its rediculous how many points of stuff you need to commit to kill a very cheap transport, but its also better because it was too easy to stop a MBT from shooting.
Also, if 4 railguns have punched a vehicle, it should eventually die in my opinion
I'm still convinced that the allies rule is a GW/CIA plot to destroy this site. Look at the angst that it has already provoked
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about vehicles. I mean, from a military perspective, it's moving back towards a more combined arms style of warfare. If you read about the Battle of Stalingrad, who in their right mind would send tanks in on their own? The new rules may reflect this.
As for 20 man (android) squads of necron warriors, wouldn't that make it easier for people to drop big templates on them??
Goresaw wrote:Wow... just wow. I know I sound like the sky is falling, but my god, they seem to hate assault. (In particular xeno assault armies).
Assault can come in two flavors, foot slogging blob or transported squad. Trade squad size for agility/quickness of getting into combat.
Foot slogging is going to get shot to pieces with these new rules. Now that you can just shoot the models out of cover, and ignore the one that would get a save, you can significantly whittle down an assault unit. The entire reason you took a foot assault unit was that the unit was to big to fit into a transport (and therefore will be too big to fit into cover, etc).
Transported troopers are now facing a significant nerf in their range. You can no longer get a "free" two inches from a transport. You can no longer dismount if the transport moved over 6. So now your unit has to spend even more time in its increasingly flimsy metal box of death. But you say "But assault troops get a potential 12 in assault now! This makes up for losing the 6 inches that you don't get from moving 12 and dismounting!" No. No it doesn't. Now your troops have to get out of their metal box of death into (more than likely) open ground. Now more than ever you are at the whims of the dice gods as to whether you make it into combat. If you fail the charge. You. Are. Dead. As a transported unit, you don't have the model size to endure a round of shooting.
And even when your mauled assault unit FINALLY gets into combat, it has to endure MORE shooting with snap fire. And your power weapons are AP 3 (as if terminators needed to be MORE durable...).
All of this just compounds when you factor in the weak armor saves on almost all xeno armies (except for the new chosen race, crons). With cover being nerfed, the gap between power armor and 5 up saves is going to get huge.
I have not seen a single rumor that makes assault armies better yet other than assault weapons getting AP. But lets not kid ourselves, almost none will be AP 3 or better (lolpowerarmorstillisgod).
The current tournament scene is absolutely dominated by shooting. If these armies take assault, its mean as more of a counter unit or is so ridiculous beat face its broken (DCAs anyone?).
I'm not trying to overreact or scream "I'm going to play warmahordes!" But I can't help but be extremely worried that my favored method of play, assault, is going to go the way of the do-do.
I may join you in running around looking for sky-reinforcing beams. I'd really rather eBay my assauly Dark Eldar than do the same boring venompasm blaster-dakka list everyone does, only now with more haywire. I have Infinity for games that hang on shooting for 90% of the casualties.
I beleive with the right list C&C will be really quite ok, so far i'm looking at DOABA and thinking of a Null depolyment tyranids army but the latter will only work IMO if one thing is changed, and thats the intergalactic hunter which devourers planets on apocalyptic scale can work out how to assault some one in a building or woods without tripping over! (yes i do hate this) Also after reading the little bit of the psyker page we got it said that there is now warp charge 1 & 2, a psyker can only cast a power if his or hers master level if that of or above the warp charge.......tyranids only have one level 2 character right now (the swarm lord) yet apperently have a psyker more powerful than even the most power human psyker (see zoanthropes pages) so all those awesome sauces spells in the new "lores" are pointless in the codex if the best ones can't be cast by the psyker that rolls them. you GW for yet again saying my nids deserved to die.
DarthDiggler wrote:Isn't that a 420+ pt unit shooting at the vehicle? Shouldn't 420pts of anything shooting be able to kill a vehicle half it's cost? Assault the Necrons and they die.
Full 20 necron warrior unit = 260 pts.
Then the Phaeron is another 160 to give them relentless. How all 20 will be in range is another matter.
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
RAR (Rules as Rumored) just doesn't have the same flair.
Allies: Take them or leave them, Makes sense either way. It does give me more leeway to mess with people. I've always randomly rotated the army(1 of 3) I use anyway so now I can add even more options to the rotation.
It makes sense that vehicles die easier than now. Necrons and Space Wolves just seem to break it, just using the rumors. There may yet be some other factors to contend with, like maybe a single unit can only cause 1 Hull point of damage regardless of how many glances hit it. I didn't see any rules on how the Hull points worked, and how damage wass tracked on vehicles now.
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
RAR (Rules as Rumored) just doesn't have the same flair.
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
I think that its funnier that at least 50% of the post in this thread are using 5th ed rules to prove that 6th is broken.
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
I think that its funnier that at least 50% of the post in this thread are using 5th ed rules to prove that 6th is broken.
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
I think that its funnier that at least 50% of the post in this thread are using 5th ed rules to prove that 6th is broken.
I was thinking the same thing. It will be different, everyone will play different. Change is good.
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
How inaccurate are you expecting these rumours and speculative information to be?
Just Dave wrote:How inaccurate are you expecting these rumours and speculative information to be?
Doesn't matter how accurate they are when they're 98% (random number) incomplete. You can't judge a system based on a few choice snippets. For all we know, Tanks have a 2+ invulnerable save and Hull Points regenerate every turn. Probably not, but I think it illustrates my point.
So between premeasuring and range/Los sniping, overwatch, snap fire, easier vehicle kills, rapid fire improvement, etc. shooting got better overall.
Assaults are now random movement, subject to defensive fire, lose distance when shot (pulling from the front means that ground needs to be made up), losing attacks on a multi-assault...
Are there any good assault rumors? The flying MC rules are interesting but I don't see them making Nids more viable when you also include all the other rules changes.
Oh, and all the people who said "Nids will be fine with overwatch, snap fire, and removing from the front - you're looking at the rules with a 5th Ed mindset!" tell me that again with a straight face. Sure, vehicles die easier. That's about the only good thing I'm seeing.
Just Dave wrote:How inaccurate are you expecting these rumours and speculative information to be?
Doesn't matter how accurate they are when they're 98% (random number) incomplete. You can't judge a system based on a few choice snippets. For all we know, Tanks have a 2+ invulnerable save and Hull Points regenerate every turn. Probably not, but I think it illustrates my point.
@Just Dave. This+1. I don't know what we(I) don't know. None of us do at this point.
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BladeWalker wrote:
Palindrome wrote:
Byte wrote:
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
I think that its funnier that at least 50% of the post in this thread are using 5th ed rules to prove that 6th is broken.
I was thinking the same thing. It will be different, everyone will play different. Change is good.
Agreed! 5th was stale and predictable. I knew what army list would be just by knowing the army I was facing in tourneys AND friendly games. I game at stores exclusively, no dark basement with well known friends in my 40K world.
Just Dave wrote:How inaccurate are you expecting these rumours and speculative information to be?
Doesn't matter how accurate they are when they're 98% (random number) incomplete. You can't judge a system based on a few choice snippets. For all we know, Tanks have a 2+ invulnerable save and Hull Points regenerate every turn. Probably not, but I think it illustrates my point.
I disagree. While obviously we don't know everything, I'd say it's closer to 98% complete than incomplete,with many things being carried over from previous editions anyway.
Short of hull points regenerating every turn - which there's been no suggestion of - I'd say it's safe to assume that vehicles are more fragile.
Unless we find out something radically new - again, unlikely - then it's probably safe to assume assault armies are suffering as well; between the 'nerf' to multi-assaults, defensive/snap fire, casualties being taken from the front and random charge distance.
I'm not advocating rules arguments or lawyering, doomsday cries or that we already know everything, but I'd say it's pretty safe to assume we know the majority of the changes taking place or at least their general nature.
HAZZER wrote:I'll reapate the question I asked a few pages ago becuase I've not no resonce;
Dice and tape mesure limted edtion? I was told in GW they wasen't going to be? HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Why are you worried? Just order them when they are finally available. You haven't missed them yet.
Thanks, do you know how long the delay is going to be?
No. Kroothawk is keeping the latest information on release dates on Page 1 of this thread. Please read that information. You will see the original scheduled release dates as well as the note from GW's Facebook page which mentioned the delay.
Kroot is doing a lot of work on that page to keep it up to date. It's well worth a visit.
Just Dave wrote:I'm not advocating rules arguments or lawyering, doomsday cries or that we already know everything, but I'd say it's pretty safe to assume we know the majority of the changes taking place or at least their general nature.
No, this outlook is typical for the forums but it's wrong. It's like assuming a unit has been dropped from a Codex because the rumors don't mention it.
We have no info what any of the vehicle subtypes do, for instance (except a little bit on Flyers). We have partial rules for what, 3 old USRs? And no clue about the Codex-specific errata.
Got a question regarding preordering. I've never preordered something from GW before, so should I expect my copy of the Gamers' Edition on release day or the Monday after? I had to get it shipped to my house because my closest GW is 90 mins away and I'm probably working on the Saturday. :(
xttz wrote:So is the rulebook actually available in stores for people to read? I got the impression it was but thought we'd have more of the missing pieces by now.
Negative, all the points in this thread are based on rumors and speculative information. Funny that there's already RAW debates.
I think that its funnier that at least 50% of the post in this thread are using 5th ed rules to prove that 6th is broken.
To be Fair you can tell Necrons and GKs were creating reguarding the 6E rules adding in Mastery Levels, Heavy Vehicle type and the like.
Griever wrote:[
Orks allying with fething everybody is especially slowed. Orks don't fething ally with anybody.
OK, this is the part I just had to comment on. It's specifically part of the long-standing, well-established, uncontradicted background that Blood Axe clan orks trade with, and fight for, Imperial forces on occasion. It's also part of the long-standing, well-established, uncontradicted background that Von Straab allied with the orks on Armageddon to protect his cowardly hide (even to the point of having an orkish bodyguard contingent).
Orks specifically do ally with at least some people.
Either you are unaware of long-standing GW background, in which case you shouldn't be harping on it, or you don't care what the background is, and are just complaining because you don't like the Allies rules.
I'm not pretending that I think the Allies rules are perfect, and some of them appear to be inconsistent or totally irrational (BT & Sisters can't get along?). Of course, they will be abused by some/many players. I can't think of any coherent way to argue against that.
On the other hand, a LOT of the alliances make sense if you think of them like this:
On the board, you have two groups of models. The models that come out of your points allowance, that do stuff on your turn, and the models that do stuff on the opponent's turn and do stuff then. If it's not one of them, it's one of yours. It's either 'your army', or your 'allies'.
Thinking of it in terms of the game universe, if you and some orks are fighting, and a massive amount of Tyranids show up, neither you, nor the orks, can win if the tyranids aren't defeated. You and the orks are allies against the tyranids.
Games Workshop isn't going to rewrite their rules set (especially not when releasing a new edition with new rules already) to cover 3+ sided battles that break the IGO-UGO model of their game. They just aren't going to do that. Thus, if you want three different armies on the battlefield, two of them have to be on the same side. That's all "Allies" means to me.
If you want to play a game with three or more sides, then you're welcome to do so as a house game, but I don't think you can expect support for it in the basic rulebook support from GW.
I'm not defending their specific alliance rules. I haven't really read those rules, other than the limited amount posted in their previews. I'm just acknowledging that there are three real options for allowing someone (yourself, or another player) to field a third army on the tabletop:
You can't. There are only two sides.
You can. Make up your own rules to do it.
Fine, but they fight on one of the two pre-existing sides.
The fourth isn't something GW is doing right now:
OK. Here's rules for 3+ way battles that depart substantially from the alternating turn ruleset that we have flogged for 25 years. We rewrote everything so it makes sense with more than two sides.
H.B.M.C. wrote:In those two first examples they're not "allies" insaniak. They're just fighting at the same time. It's not even a 'the enemy of my enemy' situation either.
Don't be so intentionally ignorant of the reasons some of us dislike this. We once had a huge mega-game where Eldar and Chaos fought side by side because the Eldar wanted the Chaos Lord to free his hand from the Wailing Doom he had become bonded to (so their plan was to let him succeed and then attack him). It didn't make them 'allies'.
I think H.B.M.C. may have articulated part of the problem. It's the word 'allies'. To anyone else but GW, this connotes, I don't know, 'allegiance", or 'alliance'. GW decided to slap that label on something else: "fighting at the same time".
Your GW-sanctioned allies aren't really 'allies'. They fight at the same time. Your allies go on your turn, and calculate victory conditions based on your side. That's really all.
Again, I'm not defending their alliance matrix. I can't see how, possibly, BT and Sisters aren't allies. Some of the others make no sense to me, either.
However, the concept isn't inherently bad. It's the way to allow three armies in a two-sided game system.
It will probably lead to a lot of broken builds and problematic game questions, but as a concept, it's solid. Poorly named, but solid.
Yep, that's the whole idea of them now. That's their only effect. If you don't believe several people have access to the actual rulebooks (EG, the Hive Mind quote), then you'll know that from White Dwarf.
You only need psychic cards if you plan on taking the new psychic powers and you have a terrible memory if you do. Otherwise, not needed.
The new dice seem really important though annoyingly. With the random special objectives and needing to take account of loads of new things with vehicles, I don't know if normal dice standing in, or modelled objectives will be too helpful on their own.
H.B.M.C. wrote:In those two first examples they're not "allies" insaniak. They're just fighting at the same time. It's not even a 'the enemy of my enemy' situation either.
Don't be so intentionally ignorant of the reasons some of us dislike this. We once had a huge mega-game where Eldar and Chaos fought side by side because the Eldar wanted the Chaos Lord to free his hand from the Wailing Doom he had become bonded to (so their plan was to let him succeed and then attack him). It didn't make them 'allies'.
I think H.B.M.C. may have articulated part of the problem. It's the word 'allies'. To anyone else but GW, this connotes, I don't know, 'allegiance", or 'alliance'. GW decided to slap that label on something else: "fighting at the same time".
Your GW-sanctioned allies aren't really 'allies'. They fight at the same time. Your allies go on your turn, and calculate victory conditions based on your side. That's really all.
Again, I'm not defending their alliance matrix. I can't see how, possibly, BT and Sisters aren't allies. Some of the others make no sense to me, either.
However, the concept isn't inherently bad. It's the way to allow three armies in a two-sided game system.
It will probably lead to a lot of broken builds and problematic game questions, but as a concept, it's solid. Poorly named, but solid.
Which is why those types of alliances are not named "allies" but rather "allies of convenience". Seriously, it's even in the teaser. In this case, it's us players fething up the terminology, not GW.
TheSecretSquig wrote:Because I'm too lazy to read 62 pages to see if this has been answered..............
What do you now need to play the game?
Rulebook - Check
Templates - Check
Psycic Cards ????
New types of Dice????
You just need the rulebook and templates.
The psychic cards are a gameplay aid, allowing you to reference the psychic powers at a glance rather than having to dig through the book.
I don't think there are new types of dice, the set included in the Gamer's Edition is just there alongside of the dice holders to--again--serve as gameplay aids for if you don't have objective markers, etc.
The new dice where in the White Dwarf, but they've been delayed, GW will let us know when they are available again.. or somesuch.
edit - looking at them though, they just seem to be markers and dice with icons instead of numbers from various tables, much like with the old Vehicle dice from the 5th launch, so I doubt they are required, just a nice extra for those who want them.
If they can't capture then i think air-cav got a lot worse.
One has to be crazy to keep troops inside flyers in the first place. Every model takes a S10 hit with no saves of any kind allowed if they're inside a flyer (in fly mode) when it dies. Well, every other troop than Necrons that is, because if a Night Scythe pops the embarked guys come in from the reserve.
The preview video from GW (link on page 1 of this thread) shows the paragraph for "Crash and Burn" where the passengers of a zooming flying transport take the S10 hit if the flier is wrecked or explodes. However, it is not quite certain that "no saves..." are allowed. The visible wording shows "no armour...saves". It remains unclear whether invulnerable saves and/or FNP is allowed. The current 5th Edition wording for FNP would not allow it in this case since FNP doesn't work when a wound is caused by something that doesn't allow an armour save, but we don't know yet what the wording will be for 6th Edition FNP.
Any word on my personal bugbear, namely, if there are a gak load of Gretchin bogging down my Dred, can I gleefully flame the fethers?! I mean, it cant hurt his adamantium hide, so why not eh?
Or a bunch of puny eldar are hacking up my Marines, why the hell cant I brass them up anyway, safe in the knowledge that their blessed power armour will protect them?!
Being totally banned from ever shooting into combat has never made any sense to me.
If I'm reading the rumours right, FNP won't work for instant death, which for nearly all units that can be in a vehicle, str 10 would be?
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mattyrm wrote:Any word on my personal bugbear, namely, if there are a gak load of Gretchin bogging down my Dred, can I gleefully flame the fethers?! I mean, it cant hurt his adamantium hide, so why not eh?
I was hoping some kind of thunderstomp ability would make it in, and rumours last week seemed to indicate this might be the case, not seen any mention of it via those getting glances at the book though. I really hope so, its one of my annoyances as well.
Kal-El wrote:bye bye cookie cutter lists! This change is being looked at so negitive. With the ally rules being added to the mix we won't see "just another GK army, or just another SW army etc." This adds a lot of flavor to the list building.
There will still be 'cookie cutter' lists, they may be more varied than now but there will still be the problem of identical 'internet' lists. The only thing that will have a good chance at preventing them is for GW to suddenly realise that all their armies need to be internally and externally balanced and not just thrown together with little real playtesting.
This. "Cookie cutter" lists are GW's fault, not the players. GW are the ones designing the codices so that there are obvious duds and no-brainer choices for every army. If everything was balanced and had a reason to be used there wouldn't be that problem.
Does the GW gremlin sneak into your house and change your army builder lists? Does Matt Ward show up with a gun and say "Take this unit, copy it three times OR ELSE". No? Then it is 100% you making a choice on what unit you are going to take. You can try to blame GW all you want but the fact of the matter is you are still making a choice to take these units. Every single person that brings a cookie cutter chose to bring it. I have had a lot of fun games where people have made those "duds" work quite well. We got a guy here that can make pyrovores work in our local meta. Not everyone here has 400 bucks lying around to spend on just vehicles so we dont do the tournament lists. Now you can argue that it doesn't work for the tournament crowd. That is fine and perfectly acceptable, but the question goes back to, the goal of the company is x. What the public wants is Y. If they dont overlap there is going to be a conflict of interest. I plan to do a lot of tournaments in the near future and I am really excited about what it will offer. Even allies, people will break the system regardless of what rules are available so that is a moot point.
I am still failing to see how assault armys are broken? Although this is speculation I am guessing that you can assault out of a transport that has moved again. So the vehicle moves 6, you get out from the hatch 6(hey you can move a full 6 after the vehicle moves) total is 12. Almost the same as before you now have a 2d6 assault range which 58% of the time will make it so you could assault someone further than you could before. Not to mention fleet giving you a re-roll.
You can pre measure everything so you know the exact number you need and can mitigate your risks. It looks like run is now 2d6 instead of 1d6. Jump infantry now get a free additional attack as well. Monstrous creatures got better, FNPIMO is better because it is much harder to negate.
rigeld2 wrote:So between premeasuring and range/Los sniping, overwatch, snap fire, easier vehicle kills, rapid fire improvement, etc. shooting got better overall.
Assaults are now random movement, subject to defensive fire, lose distance when shot (pulling from the front means that ground needs to be made up), losing attacks on a multi-assault...
Are there any good assault rumors? The flying MC rules are interesting but I don't see them making Nids more viable when you also include all the other rules changes.
Oh, and all the people who said "Nids will be fine with overwatch, snap fire, and removing from the front - you're looking at the rules with a 5th Ed mindset!" tell me that again with a straight face. Sure, vehicles die easier. That's about the only good thing I'm seeing.
There's not been much good news for assaulters so far, but there are certain rules that have not been extensively touched on in any rumours that could make a big difference.
- rumoured Fear rule on Daemons (so possibly some Tyranids too, if it's actually in the game)
- assaulting into difficult terrain (both the distance and the Initiative penalties will be key here)
- the future of the No Retreat rule
- all units being able to run and then still charge (would be sweet for 'fexes)
- consolidating into combat
Does the GW gremlin sneak into your house and change your army builder lists? Does Matt Ward show up with a gun and say "Take this unit, copy it three times OR ELSE". No? Then it is 100% you making a choice on what unit you are going to take.
Of course it is yet when unit A is more points effeicent than unit B what do you think will get taken more often? This is espeically the case when people get their list building ideas from forums. It is entirely GW's fault that units are significantly more points efficent than their peers.
Personally I have always built my lists from a fluff perspective but a lot of people seem to build their lists entirely around in game effectiveness and it is these people who tend to use identical armies.
I know it has been mentioned before but terminators gave example of only having their armor beaten by power fists , axes ...
At the risk of getting shouted out by the eldar banshees are no good anymore
At least banshees dont cost 40p a piece.
Anyone know how force weapons will be treated (AP)?
If they are only power weapons then I see absolutely no use of ever taking GK terminators with anything other then a hammer.
If they are then there goes all the time and effort I put into painting non hammer terminators down the drain.
I'm not sure assaulty armies got nerfed. They can get up in your face real quick if what all I am reading is correct here. So instead of getting hit by normal BS for 2-3 turns while you run of ride up to the enemy you are getting hit 1-2 turns, one of which is BS1. (Bear in mind this is based off what I have read here)
One person said everybody within 6 inches gets to participate in the assault, so if that's right than you're getting more models into combat or at least easier.
One thing had me worried as I do power blob IG. Removing from the front in close combat. But if the 6 inch participation thing is right then I can have my sergeants and commmissar in the back still in CC just fine. Here's hoping anyway.
Is it just me or did Swooping Hawks just become good? Haywire grenades and possibly assaulting flyers, yes please. Any news on what Hull points gravtanks might get? I'm hoping for 3, and that the next 'dex makes holofields a 4++.
And with all the nerfs to assault I think we may see a return of consolidating into a new assault.
Anyone know how force weapons will be treated (AP)?
If they are only power weapons then I see absolutely no use of ever taking GK terminators with anything other then a hammer.
Are you joking? It is hard to tell online. If you had all hammers, with a 2+/5++ you could still lose quite a few guys before you swing, since all of your GKT would go last. Seems like halberds or swords would still be very useful.
I love that you no longer roll results on glances; will make things go sooooo much faster! And ap1 is +2 to result? Yeash! Meltas just got a whole lot more deadly. My dark eldar will cry (+3 to the result!)
Wonder how open topped will work, doubt they will follow the "only disembark 6" or less"
Griever wrote:[
Orks allying with fething everybody is especially slowed. Orks don't fething ally with anybody.
OK, this is the part I just had to comment on. It's specifically part of the long-standing, well-established, uncontradicted background that Blood Axe clan orks trade with, and fight for, Imperial forces on occasion. It's also part of the long-standing, well-established, uncontradicted background that Von Straab allied with the orks on Armageddon to protect his cowardly hide (even to the point of having an orkish bodyguard contingent).
Orks specifically do ally with at least some people.
Either you are unaware of long-standing GW background, in which case you shouldn't be harping on it, or you don't care what the background is, and are just complaining because you don't like the Allies rules.
I'm not pretending that I think the Allies rules are perfect, and some of them appear to be inconsistent or totally irrational (BT & Sisters can't get along?). Of course, they will be abused by some/many players. I can't think of any coherent way to argue against that.
On the other hand, a LOT of the alliances make sense if you think of them like this:
On the board, you have two groups of models. The models that come out of your points allowance, that do stuff on your turn, and the models that do stuff on the opponent's turn and do stuff then. If it's not one of them, it's one of yours. It's either 'your army', or your 'allies'.
Thinking of it in terms of the game universe, if you and some orks are fighting, and a massive amount of Tyranids show up, neither you, nor the orks, can win if the tyranids aren't defeated. You and the orks are allies against the tyranids.
Games Workshop isn't going to rewrite their rules set (especially not when releasing a new edition with new rules already) to cover 3+ sided battles that break the IGO-UGO model of their game. They just aren't going to do that. Thus, if you want three different armies on the battlefield, two of them have to be on the same side. That's all "Allies" means to me.
If you want to play a game with three or more sides, then you're welcome to do so as a house game, but I don't think you can expect support for it in the basic rulebook support from GW.
I'm not defending their specific alliance rules. I haven't really read those rules, other than the limited amount posted in their previews. I'm just acknowledging that there are three real options for allowing someone (yourself, or another player) to field a third army on the tabletop:
You can't. There are only two sides.
You can. Make up your own rules to do it.
Fine, but they fight on one of the two pre-existing sides.
The fourth isn't something GW is doing right now:
OK. Here's rules for 3+ way battles that depart substantially from the alternating turn ruleset that we have flogged for 25 years. We rewrote everything so it makes sense with more than two sides.
Why do we need to fight multiple sided battles in the space of one game? The whole point of the game is two face each other with two armies and duke it out.
I understand three times in the entire fluff Orks may have been eluded to helping Space Marines, but this is going to enable a Space Marine player to permanently include units from the ORK CODEX in his army against every enemy he could every want. I just don't see how that makes sense. People are going to pick and choose the best units from another codex and slap them into their army based on what makes their army better.
You guys thought GW sucked at balancing codexes before, not you get to deal with not only codex V codex balance, but also codex/codex v codex/codex balance.
Does the GW gremlin sneak into your house and change your army builder lists? Does Matt Ward show up with a gun and say "Take this unit, copy it three times OR ELSE". No? Then it is 100% you making a choice on what unit you are going to take.
Of course it is yet when unit A is more points effeicent than unit B what do you think will get taken more often? This is espeically the case when people get their list building ideas from forums. It is entirely GW's fault that units are significantly more points efficent than their peers.
Personally I have always built my lists from a fluff perspective but a lot of people seem to build their lists entirely around in game effectiveness and it is these people who tend to use identical armies.
Yep and I have no problem with that. It is just this complete lack of ownership for the armies that people are playing. YOU are choosing to take that list. YOU are deciding that this is how you want to play.
Its the "GW is making me take these units because they are obviously better than others" vrs "I want the best list possible and so I am taking these units"
Very similar result, but a very different mentality or approach. One implies a level of powerlessness over their army where as the other states a level of control. I personally think most of it stems from the not wanting to take responsibility for bringing an army that is not interesting to play against for some people. "I didnt want to bring this list but the mean ole GW made me"
I am going to NOVA this fall, bringing my necrons. I am in no way shape or form bringing an optimized list, I am bringing a list that I want to play. Luckily for me the NOVA braketing format allows me to do this and still have a fun time. I expect the first game or two to suck, and then after that I will be playing like minded players and it will be a blast. I just went to a tournament last weekend and even when I destroyed my opponent we still had a fun time and he said my list was really cool and good. I remember when everyone was suprised when they saw my army. The first thing the said was "No scarabs, no wraiths?" Good times.
HAZZER wrote:I'll reapate the question I asked a few pages ago becuase I've not no resonce;
Dice and tape mesure limted edtion? I was told in GW they wasen't going to be? HELP!!!!!!!!!!
Why are you worried? Just order them when they are finally available. You haven't missed them yet.
Thanks, do you know how long the delay is going to be?
No. Kroothawk is keeping the latest information on release dates on Page 1 of this thread. Please read that information. You will see the original scheduled release dates as well as the note from GW's Facebook page which mentioned the delay.
Kroot is doing a lot of work on that page to keep it up to date. It's well worth a visit.
Thanks a lot! i must of missed that info cause' I've been reading the first page, thanks anyway...
portugus wrote:I'm not sure assaulty armies got nerfed. They can get up in your face real quick if what all I am reading is correct here. So instead of getting hit by normal BS for 2-3 turns while you run of ride up to the enemy you are getting hit 1-2 turns, one of which is BS1. (Bear in mind this is based off what I have read here)
The only thing that makes them faster is the random charge range. Which could also make them slower.
One person said everybody within 6 inches gets to participate in the assault, so if that's right than you're getting more models into combat or at least easier.
I normally don't have a problem getting everyone in except in weird circumstances, but the 6" rumor had to do with multiple ruins levels.
One thing had me worried as I do power blob IG. Removing from the front in close combat. But if the 6 inch participation thing is right then I can have my sergeants and commmissar in the back still in CC just fine. Here's hoping anyway.
You can have 2 ranks of goons die before the Commisar and sergeant are threatened. Not that big a deal.
It'd be nice if GW make it more balanced, it's always nice to see everyone having varying armies as opposed to everyone collecting Draigowing or Crowewing or the like.
Griever wrote:
I understand three times in the entire fluff Orks may have been eluded to helping Space Marines, but this is going to enable a Space Marine player to permanently include units from the ORK CODEX in his army against every enemy he could every want. I just don't see how that makes sense.
We didn't ALLY with those pansy marine boyz, we LOOTED ALL THEIR TANKZ!!!!!
All me Big Meks are happy now that we got propa looted wagons back!!
Griever wrote:
I understand three times in the entire fluff Orks may have been eluded to helping Space Marines, but this is going to enable a Space Marine player to permanently include units from the ORK CODEX in his army against every enemy he could every want. I just don't see how that makes sense.
We didn't ALLY with those pansy marine boyz, we LOOTED ALL THEIR TANKZ!!!!!
All me Big Meks are happy now that we got propa looted wagons back!!
I like the way you think. Other people should tell stories like these with their funky alliances as well.
Hazzer, can you tone down the font size on that last post of yours? Not many of us need to know that the UK site is out of advance order bundles and/or editions.
The US site still has collector's edition and gamer's editions up for advance order. You might try that. Combined bundles appear to be out. I don't recall seeing ever seeing anything with that name.
As for the rumored demise of assault armies, I'm not buying it yet. Let's wait for the rulebook before we start shoveling dirt into that grave.
Transports still carry models. You still have smoke dischargers. You get to disembark 6" from the access point and then assault 2D6. Fleet models will probably disembark 6", run D6, and then assault 2D6.
As for BS1 snap fire, it isn't going to drop many attackers unless you are crazy enough to assault a fresh 50 man IG blob with its heavy weapons and flamers. Even then, you will get in and start carving them up.
Maybe you can't just drive across an open field in the face of a 100 model gunline but when was that ever a good idea...3rd Edition?
The scenario setup, grenade rules, and scoring methodology also influence our tabletop calculus. There are a lot of unknown variables that remain.
You guys thought GW sucked at balancing codexes before, not you get to deal with not only codex V codex balance, but also codex/codex v codex/codex balance.
Have fun with that.
Precisely!
I shudder to think of all the new cheese lists with IG+GK or what have you.
And we all thought razor, venom, vendetta (etc) spam was bad.
He made it a spoiler so you wouldn't have read it unless you clicked the spoiler button.
This has been posted already, twice in fact. People hear right now, don't care for new rules, but just want to argue about allies or how broken 6th editon is now. Sad now eh? I am almost thinking I am back at Warseer again.
JB wrote:Transports still carry models. You still have smoke dischargers. You get to disembark 6" from the access point and then assault 2D6. Fleet models will probably disembark 6", run D6, and then assault 2D6.
I have not seen anything that makes this statement true. There is nothing that I have seen that says you can assault out of a vehicle, as of yet. As istated I think this is going to be a shooty ed. with what we know as of yet. But what about foot assault armies? Its hard to get a 30 man boys squad in transport. What about 30 gaunts? Not every army has transports for their assault based squads. But we shall see soon enough I guess.
Griever wrote:
I understand three times in the entire fluff Orks may have been eluded to helping Space Marines, but this is going to enable a Space Marine player to permanently include units from the ORK CODEX in his army against every enemy he could every want. I just don't see how that makes sense.
We didn't ALLY with those pansy marine boyz, we LOOTED ALL THEIR TANKZ!!!!!
All me Big Meks are happy now that we got propa looted wagons back!!
I like the way you think. Other people should tell stories like these with their funky alliances as well.
I agree. As much as the ally rules potentially irk me, I definitely look forward to making traitor guard for my CSM. I've always kind of wanted an IG force, but never wanted to make a whole army so I have to admit GW is gonna end up getting me with this one probably. I do hope if allies become widely accepted that most people make effort to match them up with their main force.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pyriel- wrote:
You guys thought GW sucked at balancing codexes before, not you get to deal with not only codex V codex balance, but also codex/codex v codex/codex balance.
Have fun with that.
Precisely!
I shudder to think of all the new cheese lists with IG+GK or what have you.
And we all thought razor, venom, vendetta (etc) spam was bad.
I actually don't think IG and GK will be the big winners of the ally system, I think they'd rather just take more of their own units.
JB wrote:Transports still carry models. You still have smoke dischargers. You get to disembark 6" from the access point and then assault 2D6. Fleet models will probably disembark 6", run D6, and then assault 2D6.
I have not seen anything that makes this statement true. There is nothing that I have seen that says you can assault out of a vehicle, as of yet. As istated I think this is going to be a shooty ed. with what we know as of yet. But what about foot assault armies? Its hard to get a 30 man boys squad in transport. What about 30 gaunts? Not every army has transports for their assault based squads. But we shall see soon enough I guess.
I thought fleet meant you can re-roll the charge distance? That's what i thought it said in the WD Battle Rep anyway.
dæl wrote:Is it just me or did Swooping Hawks just become good? Haywire grenades and possibly assaulting flyers, yes please. Any news on what Hull points gravtanks might get? I'm hoping for 3, and that the next 'dex makes holofields a 4++.
And with all the nerfs to assault I think we may see a return of consolidating into a new assault.
Just what I was thinking. Hawks never require worse than 4+ to hit a vehicle in CC either.
JB wrote:Transports still carry models. You still have smoke dischargers. You get to disembark 6" from the access point and then assault 2D6. Fleet models will probably disembark 6", run D6, and then assault 2D6.
I have not seen anything that makes this statement true. There is nothing that I have seen that says you can assault out of a vehicle, as of yet. As I stated I think this is going to be a shooty ed with what we know as of yet. But what about foot assault armies? Its hard to get a 30 man boys squad in transport. What about 30 gaunts? Not every army has transports for their assault based squads. But we shall see soon enough I guess.
I thought fleet meant you can re-roll the charge distance? That's what i thought it said in the WD Battle Rep anyway.
Thats what I have gathered from fleet as well. But run is still in the game from what I have seen as well. He is saying that you can hop out of transport and assault. Now this would be a nice addition, but I have not seen anything to say that this is a viable option.
rabidaskal wrote:We didn't ALLY with those pansy marine boyz, we LOOTED ALL THEIR TANKZ!!!!!
All me Big Meks are happy now that we got propa looted wagons back!!
The problem is having to explain how a Captain and a squad of Marines follow the Ork warband around to baby-sit the looted Land Raider.
As I said in a thread in 40K general earlier today, one of the things I am looking forward to in particular regarding the new allies system, is to what madness and crazy awesome conversions Ork players get up to introducing looted equivilent of actual units from rival books.
Those inspired fellas who did Ork Dreadknight conversions, could now in effect use them as Dreadnights.
Just curious, but do GW stores have preview copies of the book? Or are they all going out next Saturday with no preview beforehand? I'm assuming (since we're all still speculating) that nothing goes out before next Saturday and we're all in the dark until then.
Q: "Why all the hate about the Allies rules? I mean, why is it so hard to believe that normally vicious enemies would set aside their differences to fight a more powerful adversary?"
A: Grey Knights can ally with Daemons.
"Hey Mortorian. I'm so sorry that I carved my mentor's name into your heart, yo. I was going through a rough patch right there, and I was drinking alot. Anyway, I've been a friend of Bill W for a few centuries now, and I was thinking, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind burying the hatchet so we can defeat those Tau over there?"
wuestenfux wrote:Well, how is wound allocation from cc or shooting being handled?
Nearest to farthest it seems, this brings up the question if we have been given the Fantasy 7E wound rules, because if you remove the models in base contact with your attacked it kinda means you're not allowed to swing back at them...
Nagashek wrote:Q: "Why all the hate about the Allies rules? I mean, why is it so hard to believe that normally vicious enemies would set aside their differences to fight a more powerful adversary?"
A: Grey Knights can ally with Daemons.
"Hey Mortorian. I'm so sorry that I carved my mentor's name into your heart, yo. I was going through a rough patch right there, and I was drinking alot. Anyway, I've been a friend of Bill W for a few centuries now, and I was thinking, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind burying the hatchet so we can defeat those Tau over there?"
Draigo is basically a demon now anyway, why wouldn't he be able to controll other demons?
wuestenfux wrote:Well, how is wound allocation from cc or shooting being handled?
Nearest to farthest it seems, this brings up the question if we have been given the Fantasy 7E wound rules, because if you remove the models in base contact with your attacked it kinda means you're not allowed to swing back at them...
Nearest to farthest... this would be the end of the Draigowing (or whatnot) with diversified armor.
Nagashek wrote:Q: "Why all the hate about the Allies rules? I mean, why is it so hard to believe that normally vicious enemies would set aside their differences to fight a more powerful adversary?"
A: Grey Knights can ally with Daemons.
"Hey Mortorian. I'm so sorry that I carved my mentor's name into your heart, yo. I was going through a rough patch right there, and I was drinking alot. Anyway, I've been a friend of Bill W for a few centuries now, and I was thinking, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind burying the hatchet so we can defeat those Tau over there?"
What about radical Inquisition armies? Radical Inquisitors using Dæmons for their own ends (or being unwittingly used by those same Dæmons) have been an established part of the 40k fluff for quite some time indeed.
I'm not particularly looking forward to looted Grey Knights. In the case of Orks, GW's attempt to balance the allies system kinda killed its most fluffy application, I think.
But hey, maybe the Codex errata will change the Looted Wagon entry to "Ignore the listed profile. Instead, Orks may field any vehicle from any Codex as a Heavy Support choice with BS2"
wuestenfux wrote:Well, how is wound allocation from cc or shooting being handled?
Nearest to farthest it seems, this brings up the question if we have been given the Fantasy 7E wound rules, because if you remove the models in base contact with your attacked it kinda means you're not allowed to swing back at them...
Models do a 3" pile-in at their initiative step, then swing. Casualties are taken from the front in CC, not sure the range though. Look out, sir! rolls are 4+ for sergeants and special weapons to re-allocate wounds to grunts. that's all i know based on what i've seen across the nets.
So, I just wrote up the Allies from the site (because I have nothing better to do... xD)
Black Templars
Spoiler:
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Blood Angels
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Dark Angels
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Chaos Daemons
Spoiler:
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Eldar
Imperial Guard
Orks
Tau Empire
Chaos Space Marines
Spoiler:
Chaos Daemons
Dark Eldar
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Tau Empire
Dark Angels
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Dark Eldar
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Eldar
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Grey Knights
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Imperial Guard
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Necrons
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Necrons
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Orks
Spoiler:
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Sisters of Battle
Spoiler:
Blaack Templars
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Space Marines
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Space Marines
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Wolves
Tau Empire
Space Wolves
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Tau Empire
Tau Empire
Spoiler:
Black Templars
Blood Angels
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines
Dark Angels
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Grey Knights
Imperial Guard
Necrons
Orks
Sisters of Battle
Space Marines
Space Wolves
And from what I can tell so far, this is how the Force Org Chart will be:
Zid wrote:I love that you no longer roll results on glances; will make things go sooooo much faster! And ap1 is +2 to result? Yeash! Meltas just got a whole lot more deadly. My dark eldar will cry (+3 to the result!)
Wonder how open topped will work, doubt they will follow the "only disembark 6" or less"
AP 1 may be +2 but they said the chart was altered so now you only wreck a vehicle on a 6.... this tells me that melta and ap 2 are the same as they have been and ap 3+ is what got nerfed a bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rabidaskal wrote:Orks should be allowed to ally with Nids. Looted monstrous creatures, a la that old Dino Riders cartoon.
JB wrote:Transports still carry models. You still have smoke dischargers. You get to disembark 6" from the access point and then assault 2D6. Fleet models will probably disembark 6", run D6, and then assault 2D6.
I have not seen anything that makes this statement true. There is nothing that I have seen that says you can assault out of a vehicle, as of yet. As I stated I think this is going to be a shooty ed with what we know as of yet. But what about foot assault armies? Its hard to get a 30 man boys squad in transport. What about 30 gaunts? Not every army has transports for their assault based squads. But we shall see soon enough I guess.
I thought fleet meant you can re-roll the charge distance? That's what i thought it said in the WD Battle Rep anyway.
Thats what I have gathered from fleet as well. But run is still in the game from what I have seen as well. He is saying that you can hop out of transport and assault. Now this would be a nice addition, but I have not seen anything to say that this is a viable option.
Nagashek wrote:Q: "Why all the hate about the Allies rules? I mean, why is it so hard to believe that normally vicious enemies would set aside their differences to fight a more powerful adversary?"
A: Grey Knights can ally with Daemons.
"Hey Mortorian. I'm so sorry that I carved my mentor's name into your heart, yo. I was going through a rough patch right there, and I was drinking alot. Anyway, I've been a friend of Bill W for a few centuries now, and I was thinking, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind burying the hatchet so we can defeat those Tau over there?"
Nagashek wrote:Q: "Why all the hate about the Allies rules? I mean, why is it so hard to believe that normally vicious enemies would set aside their differences to fight a more powerful adversary?"
A: Grey Knights can ally with Daemons.
"Hey Mortorian. I'm so sorry that I carved my mentor's name into your heart, yo. I was going through a rough patch right there, and I was drinking alot. Anyway, I've been a friend of Bill W for a few centuries now, and I was thinking, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind burying the hatchet so we can defeat those Tau over there?"
A lot of the allies are terrible, particularly among Space Marines (I smell Matt Ward here he turns everything with Marines to gak).
Really they should have just abandoned any connection to fluff if they were going to have Space Marines and Tau be "brothers in arms". Just let everyone ally with everyone.
Where have they called Tau and Space Marines Brothers in Arms? We don't have the allies relationship matrix yet, so that's pure conjecture on your part.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Where have they called Tau and Space Marines Brothers in Arms? We don't have the allies relationship matrix yet, so that's pure conjecture on your part.
We're supposed to believe that Vanilla Marines find it easier to ally with the fething Xenos then Sisters of Battle or Grey Knights.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Where have they called Tau and Space Marines Brothers in Arms? We don't have the allies relationship matrix yet, so that's pure conjecture on your part.
Some of the allies listed above seem a bit of a stretch. I like having the ability to ally Gaurd and Chaos Demons with my CSM. Really lookin forward to that. My Nurgle based army just inherited a whole slew of new units. Plague bearers, nuurglings, greater unclean one. Heck yeah.
Dont see nids up there anywhere with respect to the possible for alliance. You would think that Demons would likely ally since there is no Flesh as it were, same with Necrons. No meat on those metal bones. Seems like it puts the serious hurt on nids with respect to the really cool new allies rules. At the bare minimum they should allow them to proxy models from one other codex as nids.
Spartan089 wrote:Why do the tau ally with EVERYBODY, I don't think Daemons and Chaos space marines embody the greater good too much.
Seems a bit bs, as though people in the studio don't "get" what the Tau are about. I thought Chaos Daemons in particular didn't like them because of their low warp presence. Tau are generally decent people but somewhat neutral. Being neutral doesn't mean you work with just anyone, I think it's acceptable for them to work with humanity but even there you get suspicion because of the 'xenos' thing. Which makes their 'brothers in arms' thing with the Space Marines a bit questionable.
I also think it's dubious that the Eldar and Dark Eldar are 'brothers in arms'. I though the Eldar despise their fallen brothers and at most would agree to disagree, but to hold them as 'brothers in arms'? Pfft.
Spartan089 wrote:Why do the tau ally with EVERYBODY, I don't think Daemons and Chaos space marines embody the greater good too much.
Seems a bit bs, as though people in the studio don't "get" what the Tau are about. I thought Chaos Daemons in particular didn't like them because of their low warp presence. Tau are generally decent people but somewhat neutral. Being neutral doesn't mean you work with just anyone, I think it's acceptable for them to work with humanity but even there you get suspicion because of the 'xenos' thing. Which makes their 'brothers in arms' thing with the Space Marines a bit questionable.
I also think it's dubious that the Eldar and Dark Eldar are 'brothers in arms'. I though the Eldar despise their fallen brothers and at most would agree to disagree, but to hold them as 'brothers in arms'? Pfft.
Um.... hence the term "brother in ARMS" it didn't say brothers in law or from another mother lol
sennacherib wrote:Some of the allies listed above seem a bit of a stretch. I like having the ability to ally Gaurd and Chaos Demons with my CSM. Really lookin forward to that. My Nurgle based army just inherited a whole slew of new units. Plague bearers, nuurglings, greater unclean one. Heck yeah.
That I can accept because it is reminiscent of the Lost and the Damned lists. It means that Chaos now has access to IG lists to draw upon, but I think that you'd have to model them as corrupted Guard that have truely aligned themselves with Chaos. I don't think it would look right to just grab some normal IG and stick them alongside your Greater Daemons.
So, I've been reading that you can't wound models that are not visible within a unit.
So, I'm hoping this is not the case, but, if I were to take one model within the unit, and he were fairly large, and place him in front of his buddies so that only he was visible, would that mean that only the guy who was large and in charge could actually take damage, leaving the rest of the unit invulnerable?
Fafnir wrote:So, I've been reading that you can't wound models that are not visible within a unit.
So, I'm hoping this is not the case, but, if I were to take one model within the unit, and he were fairly large, and place him in front of his buddies so that only he was visible, would that mean that only the guy who was large and in charge could actually take damage, leaving the rest of the unit invulnerable?
Nagashek wrote:Q: "Why all the hate about the Allies rules? I mean, why is it so hard to believe that normally vicious enemies would set aside their differences to fight a more powerful adversary?"
A: Grey Knights can ally with Daemons.
"Hey Mortorian. I'm so sorry that I carved my mentor's name into your heart, yo. I was going through a rough patch right there, and I was drinking alot. Anyway, I've been a friend of Bill W for a few centuries now, and I was thinking, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind burying the hatchet so we can defeat those Tau over there?"
Except they can't.
That's funny, I could swear when i clicked on it earlier it showed exactly that. Regardless, many of these team ups are ridiculous and in violation of long standing storylines. Some of them make sense, like IG/Tau, Imperials with each other, Ork mercs, etc.
DE, for instance, can pair up with Daemons. A: In violation of Vect's laws (so sure, they COULD try to do it) but more importantly B: they could not pair up with any daemons of slaanesh, as instead of helping, the daemons would outright eat the eldar. Eldar souls are like turkish f*%&$^% delight. It's highly probable that any other attempted daemonic contact would similarly result in She Who Thirsts showing up. Risking Psykers? Sure. I buy that, it's in the fluff. Having truck with daemons? Nein. That's another thing entirely. DE don't fear much, but they still fear Her.
Just checked again, I'm also quite certain I saw SW (and all imperials in fact) getting to team up with chaos. Those appear different now. Can anyone else confirm this or was I smoking crack this morning?
Just a tit bit if it hasn't already been mentioned. Anyone else notice that the latest White Dwarf's back cover is an updated version of the one that was on the 4th Edition announcement issue a good few years ago? Ie same setup of Ultramarines on the same terrain pieces, but with the addition of new models. Neat that they thought to do this for older fans (....no, it really is too close to be a coincidence). XD
Nagashek wrote:
That's funny, I could swear when i clicked on it earlier it showed exactly that. Regardless, many of these team ups are ridiculous and in violation of long standing storylines. Some of them make sense, like IG/Tau, Imperials with each other, Ork mercs, etc.
DE, for instance, can pair up with Daemons. A: In violation of Vect's laws (so sure, they COULD try to do it) but more importantly B: they could not pair up with any daemons of slaanesh, as instead of helping, the daemons would outright eat the eldar. Eldar souls are like turkish f*%&$^% delight. It's highly probable that any other attempted daemonic contact would similarly result in She Who Thirsts showing up. Risking Psykers? Sure. I buy that, it's in the fluff. Having truck with daemons? Nein. That's another thing entirely. DE don't fear much, but they still fear Her.
Just checked again, I'm also quite certain I saw SW (and all imperials in fact) getting to team up with chaos. Those appear different now. Can anyone else confirm this or was I smoking crack this morning?
If you think of them as falling to chaos, just about anyone could team up with CSM or CD. Except for GK i guess who are practically immune.
Some interesting bits in that reddit thread posted above. a guy has a copy of the book answering questions in line with the thread. He verified it with a photo.
you can take an allied detachment or something. must have 1 HQ and 1 Troop, and may have 1 more troop and 1 of each other slot except HQ. there is a table of who can ally with who and how good friends they are. good friends can join each others unit with independent chars and cast physic powers as if they were friendly. middle friends cant do that. and bad friends have to roll at the begging of each turn if they are withing 6, if they roll a 1 they cant do anything. and a lot of armies can ally at all. nids cant ally with anyone.
orks as allies.
battle brothers (good friends) with no one. allies of convenience with chaos marines, IG, necrons and tau. desperate allies with chaos deamons, eldar, dark eldar, most marines. cant ally with nids, blood angles, sisters or Templars.
necrons as allies.
no battle brothers. allies of conveniance with chaos marines, gery knights (!!), tau and orcs. cant ally with deamons, any eldar or nids. all the rest are desperate allies.
So its 3 levels, and only best buds share? I'd be interested to know who falls into the "battle brothers" category.
tetrisphreak wrote:Some interesting bits in that reddit thread posted above. a guy has a copy of the book answering questions in line with the thread. He verified it with a photo.
Ask him which weapons or units in the game have access to skyfire and interceptor special rules. That's basically one of the very last tidbits we haven't heard and it will have an impact on the meta.
Either way I'll find out tomorrow when I get my hands on the book
Apparently fleet only allows the reroll of run and assault distances. So in fifth everyone gets run, effectively nerfing fleet. And in sixth you can't even assault with fleet after running, nerfing fleet even more.
Mandor wrote:Apparently fleet only allows the reroll of run and assault distances. So in fifth everyone gets run, effectively nerfing fleet. And in sixth you can't even assault with fleet after running, nerfing fleet even more.
Yup, it's garbage. Jump packers already re-roll the assault distance so I wonder what Gargoyles with fleet get?
tetrisphreak wrote:Some interesting bits in that reddit thread posted above. a guy has a copy of the book answering questions in line with the thread. He verified it with a photo.
Ask him which weapons or units in the game have access to skyfire and interceptor special rules.
Apparently, none except the ones on the fortifications.
tetrisphreak wrote:Some interesting bits in that reddit thread posted above. a guy has a copy of the book answering questions in line with the thread. He verified it with a photo.
Ask him which weapons or units in the game have access to skyfire and interceptor special rules. That's basically one of the very last tidbits we haven't heard and it will have an impact on the meta.
Either way I'll find out tomorrow when I get my hands on the book
those the core rulebook give the details on weapon profiles? if so have any changed? does it list which weapons can shoot air?
permalink
anything can shoot air, but only with snapshots (6+). some weapons are AA and hit normally.
Can you tell us what weapons (if any) get the Skyfire rule?
none ive seen exept some that come on the fortifications.
Sorry, it's tough to format this reddit post into dakka format. Plus i'm lazy.
A few things confirmed so far:
Fleet - re roll run or assault dice. No assaults after running, for ANYONE, regardless of fleet. Big impact.
Preferred enemy - Re-roll 1's to hit and 1's to wound in shooting and assault. No mention of infantry vs vehicles.
Wound Allocation and casualty removal seems more intuitive than before. Models in the front must die first (chars get a look out! save to prevent this). Models with different armor, the front models have to die before taking saves on the rear. A wolf guard with 2+ terminator armor can save his whole unit of power armor grey hunters from death, if he's in front taking the fire power.
characters (sergeants, IC's) and snipers that roll a 6 to hit can allocate where their wound goes (if the hit causes one).
wuestenfux wrote:Well, how will the DOA army be rated in 6th edition?
I'd rate it pretty high or even highest of all Space Marine armies. They've been nothing but buffed and their flyer became worth the 200 point price tag.
Can you tell us what weapons (if any) get the Skyfire rule?
none ive seen exept some that come on the fortifications.
He forgets that other flyers have it. Other than that it only confirms what we've been discussing for two days. The only reliable way to kill flyers is to bring your own flyers.
Smoke launchers and 'obscured' status (disruption pods, KFF) cover save drops to 5+. % obscuration only needs 25% to get cover. Ruins still 4+, guessing that extends to a vehicle hiding behind a ruin as well. Everything else prettymuch 5+.
Can units that have successfully completed an assault consolidate into a new combat? Does assaulting into difficult terrain still reduce initiative to 1?
Rixitotal 1 point 5 minutes ago no cant consolidate in to new enemies. and yea makes the assaulting unit I 1.
Can you list the allies for Necrons, please?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 43 minutes ago no battle brothers. allies of conveniance with chaos marines, gery knights (!!), tau and orcs. cant ally with deamons, any eldar or nids. all the rest are desperate allies.
[–]MandorOfSawall 2 points 23 minutes ago Seems like this ally matrix from the GW 2v2 tournament is correct. Can you confirm?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 50 seconds ago that is exactly it as far as i can see. only the chart is alot prettier!
Assault Through Cover specifics! Please!
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago Assulting through cover: roll and extra dice and take away the highest. and then you are I 1 unless you have assault grenades then its normal I order.
Is seize initiative still in?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 51 seconds ago yup, and still roll of for first turn. boring.
Grenades!
1 model per unit can throw a granade instead of shooting normally. all are blast except krak and haywhire. frag are S3 AP -. plasma are S4 AP4. Krak S6 AP4.
Is this 5+ cover save for fast skimmers true or only for Dark Angels as we have also heard and how far do you need to move to get it, if at all.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 1 minute ago all fast skimmers get jink 5+ cover save if they move at all, so do jetbikes.
Another wound allocation question. In a multi armoured unit (think terminator wolf guard leading a power armoured wearing squad). How does the wound thing work? Is it the terminator 2+ save over and over until he finally dies then the rest of the squad? Or is it still a majority armour save applying?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago no you take the armour save of the closest model if its different until he dies. but chars transfer it to the squad before armour saves one a 2+ so no having 1 wolfgaurd in termie Armour protecting a whole squad.
Honestly, looking at what's been divulged so far, Space Wolves look like they're getting some incredible buffs. I think that, not only will they retain their current top tier status, they may get even better.
Can units that have successfully completed an assault consolidate into a new combat?
Does assaulting into difficult terrain still reduce initiative to 1?
Rixitotal 1 point 5 minutes ago
no cant consolidate in to new enemies. and yea makes the assaulting unit I 1.
StoneRaizer wrote:Got a question regarding preordering. I've never preordered something from GW before, so should I expect my copy of the Gamers' Edition on release day or the Monday after? I had to get it shipped to my house because my closest GW is 90 mins away and I'm probably working on the Saturday. :(
Expect it a week after release. GW think the hobby will break if people who pre-order get anything before release day.
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Da Butcha wrote:I think H.B.M.C. may have articulated part of the problem. It's the word 'allies'. To anyone else but GW, this connotes, I don't know, 'allegiance", or 'alliance'. GW decided to slap that label on something else: "fighting at the same time".
unviersal special rules. skyfire (AA), slow and purposeful, smash, sniper, soul blaze, specialist weapon, spilt fire, stealth and strafing run.
soul blaze is basically a unit stays on fire and takes extra hits next turn. specalist weapon is you dont get a bonus for extra close combat weapons with it. like powerfirst now. oh acute senses now let you reroll outflank rolls
I guess someone in the thread asked the meaning of life.
Copying my earlier post into this one to keep the page current;
Smoke launchers and 'obscured' status (disruption pods, KFF) cover save drops to 5+. % obscuration only needs 25% to get cover. Ruins still 4+, guessing that extends to a vehicle hiding behind a ruin as well. Everything else prettymuch 5+.
Can units that have successfully completed an assault consolidate into a new combat? Does assaulting into difficult terrain still reduce initiative to 1?
Rixitotal 1 point 5 minutes ago no cant consolidate in to new enemies. and yea makes the assaulting unit I 1.
Can you list the allies for Necrons, please?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 43 minutes ago no battle brothers. allies of conveniance with chaos marines, gery knights (!!), tau and orcs. cant ally with deamons, any eldar or nids. all the rest are desperate allies.
[–]MandorOfSawall 2 points 23 minutes ago Seems like this ally matrix from the GW 2v2 tournament is correct. Can you confirm?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 50 seconds ago that is exactly it as far as i can see. only the chart is alot prettier!
Assault Through Cover specifics! Please!
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago Assulting through cover: roll and extra dice and take away the highest. and then you are I 1 unless you have assault grenades then its normal I order.
Is seize initiative still in?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 51 seconds ago yup, and still roll of for first turn. boring.
Grenades!
1 model per unit can throw a granade instead of shooting normally. all are blast except krak and haywhire. frag are S3 AP -. plasma are S4 AP4. Krak S6 AP4.
Is this 5+ cover save for fast skimmers true or only for Dark Angels as we have also heard and how far do you need to move to get it, if at all.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 1 minute ago all fast skimmers get jink 5+ cover save if they move at all, so do jetbikes.
Another wound allocation question. In a multi armoured unit (think terminator wolf guard leading a power armoured wearing squad). How does the wound thing work? Is it the terminator 2+ save over and over until he finally dies then the rest of the squad? Or is it still a majority armour save applying?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago no you take the armour save of the closest model if its different until he dies. but chars transfer it to the squad before armour saves one a 2+ so no having 1 wolfgaurd in termie Armour protecting a whole squad.
How does the USR rage work now? Any changes allowing you control would make death companies viable if not a bit beast.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago rage is ONLY +2 attacks on the charge. Death company are amazing now.
Are there any changes to Force Organisation? If so, what?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 3 minutes ago at 2000 pts you can take 2 FoCs. and 1 fortification slot. aside from that not much.
Has fearless changed when you lose a combat? So no more lots of wounds taken when you lose a combat just because you're not scared of anyone?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago hmmmm just says they pass moral tests... i can find anything anywhere that says they take extra wounds.... holy crap!
Calvary/ Beast movements and assaults info please [–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 42 seconds ago move 12. are fleet. cav arnt slowed by terrain but counts as dangerous. beasts ignore terrain altogether!
On the Missions:
[–]Rixitotal[S] 5 points 54 minutes ago -normal one D3 +2 objectives. - one where heavy support can claim objectives and you get extra points for killing heavy support.- same with fast attack. -a kill point one.- one where there is a relic you take and move with thats basically an objective.- and a capture and control-ish one.
Are the stormraven/vendetta flyers now?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 3 minutes ago all things on flying bases are flyers as far as i can see. storm ravens are listen under the vanilla space marine section also!!!!!
How fast can a vehicle move before passengers are unable to shoot from it?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 2 minutes ago flatout. I believe vehicles moving more than 6", occupants may only snapfire, i thought i heard that somewhere else
Any changes to the reserve rules?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 2 minutes ago
not as such, but there are lots of things that let you reroll, warlord traits and com station as an upgrade for some fortifications.
Please, give us some BG. Status of the galaxy? TheEmperor? Is everything finally gone? And about rapid fire: is always 2 shots to 12 and 1 shot to 24? Or if stationary is maybe 2 shots to 24? Thanks a lot, really.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago i havent read in depth the background, but there is alot and some stunning art work as well. rapid fire always 1 shot to max range, 2 shots to half so tau are getting 2 at 15. but cant assault.
If the wehicle has moved more than 6" do you still shoot with snap fire (BS1) with assault weapons?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 33 seconds ago you can snap fire with everything, and shoot1 at BS like now. so all if still, 1 if move 6 and none if move 12. so can shoot all snapshots at 12 move.
On Monstrous Creatures in CC:
smash is AP2 and half attacks to double strength and reroll Armour pen results.
Any changes to instant death or do multi-wound models like battlesuits and nid warriors still get gibbed by missiles?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 22 seconds ago its the same, double S is insta death.
On Feel No Pain:
you get FnP against anything that dosnt cause instant death.
Does relentless do anything other than allow units to assault after firing rapid fire? Extra shots? anything?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 4 minutes ago no, just can move and shoot with heavy and shoot and assult with heavy and rapid fire weapons.
Howard A Treesong wrote:
Seems a bit bs, as though people in the studio don't "get" what the Tau are about.
I'm sure you "get" the Tau better than the developers do...
Well I can guess why they have reintroduced the idea of allies. It's so that when they make a release for a month, they can sell to a larger group of people without the hurdle of encouraging them to take up an entirely new army. Tau players are now potential customers of everything apart from Tyranids. Okay maybe the studio "get" Tau better than me, but only because they seem to be redefining the way they behave.
Again, that's the ally chart from one of Games Workshop's doubles tournament a few months ago, hardly "confirmed".
Confirmed by the reddit thread i'm currently liveblogging right now. Rixitotal has a rulebook (confirmed by photograph) and says the ally matrix is the same as used for the doubles tournament in 2012.
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Fafnir wrote:Looks like Rage ONLY gives +2 attacks on the charge, with no control limitations.
Jump Pack Death Company with 6 attacks each on the charge, rerolling to hit and to wound? Why yes, I'd love some.
5 attacks. 2 base, 1 for sword/pistol, and 2 for charging.
I guess you really got to look at allies as where GW is taking the fluff. They really are starting to focus on the fracturing of the Imperium. Especially the expansion of the tyranids. It's a threat that affects all the various factions, and I'd be real chummy with some Tau if it meant I wouldn't get eaten. Even amongst Brothers in Arms, there can still be animosity for fluff's sake.
lord_blackfang wrote:I wonder if you can take 0-1 units as allies... like Death Company.
From the Reddit ama:
you can take an allied detachment or something. must have 1 HQ and 1 Troop, and may have 1 more troop and 1 of each other slot except HQ. there is a table of who can ally with who and how good friends they are. good friends can join each others unit with independent chars and cast physic powers as if they were friendly. middle friends cant do that. and bad friends have to roll at the begging of each turn if they are withing 6, if they roll a 1 they cant do anything. and a lot of armies can ally at all. nids cant ally with anyone.
No mention of restriction beyond having to take an HQ and a Troop choice, and not being able to take another HQ, so I don't see why not at the moment.
lord_blackfang wrote:I wonder if you can take 0-1 units as allies... like Death Company.
The jump pack costs an absurd amount of points for Death Company though. Why take 35 point DC Marines when you can get almost twice as many Assault Marines? All of your guys will have FNP from Priests anyway. 8 DC Marines (48 attacks on the charge) cost the same as 14 Assault Marines (56 attacks on the charge) and are a lot more fragile due to fewer bodies.
I cant believe the guy has a rule book in his lap and the primary thing he gets asks about is allies? What the heck! Its not that big a deal! Probably a section of the rule book that gets ignored. Unbelievable. Actually, I believe it.
So am I the only one who sees a lot of this as rules made to sell models?
Flyers get big buffs (just after a price increase) so they are now a must have.
Gotta have something to shoot down those flyers...so now you have to get some AA tanks...which also got price increases. (I think)
Allies...GWs current pricing is forcing many players to play/buy single armies. Thats no good, so lets make a huge list of allies, so now people will buy stuff from other armies that they otherwise wouldnt have.
Also the above allows even higher levels of power gaming and WAAC activity.
Im very interested to see the book (mostly for pics and fluff) but Ill be waiting until someone pops up with a huge discount or overstock sale.
Im not liking what Im seeing of 6th enough to actually play it. Ill still pick up some minis here and there for use in other systems, and collecting...but the wife and I are heading over to WarmaHordes for our main game.
lord_blackfang wrote:I wonder if you can take 0-1 units as allies... like Death Company.
The jump pack costs an absurd amount of points for Death Company though. Why take 35 point DC Marines when you can get almost twice as many Assault Marines? All of your guys will have FNP from Priests anyway. 8 DC Marines (48 attacks on the charge) cost the same as 14 Assault Marines (56 attacks on the charge) and are a lot more fragile due to fewer bodies.
Yes, but DC come with FNP and FC built in, have plenty of lovely weapon options, and are WS5. This makes them an incredibly good standalone hammer for pretty much any army in the game.
Byte wrote:I cant believe the guy has a rule book in his lap and the primary thing he gets asks about is allies? What the heck! Its not that big a deal! Probably a section of the rule book that gets ignored. Unbelievable. Actually, I believe it.
All things considered, with the way the Allies system is, it could end up shattering how armies are built and the game is played. Armies are no longer self contained, and now every unit must be looked at in a new light, in comparison to every other unit in the entire game, rather than in relation to only their own peers. What this means is that some units might as well be removed from the game entirely, while you'll be seeing a lot more of others.
For example, I expect Death Company with Long Fangs to be beyond popular.
Honestly, it looks like the allies rules could end up putting 6th edition, and 40k in general, into a downward spiral of a metagame of complete over centralization that could possibly end up doing some very heavy damage to the game in the long term. As tantalizing as some of these new options look, they could end up being very ominous.
lord_blackfang wrote:I wonder if you can take 0-1 units as allies... like Death Company.
The jump pack costs an absurd amount of points for Death Company though. Why take 35 point DC Marines when you can get almost twice as many Assault Marines? All of your guys will have FNP from Priests anyway. 8 DC Marines (48 attacks on the charge) cost the same as 14 Assault Marines (56 attacks on the charge) and are a lot more fragile due to fewer bodies.
Except that a chaplain lets Death Company reroll their failed wounds on a charge, and the Death Company are WS5. Plus, by being more compact, it is easier to maneuver them to maximize cover and control multiassaults.
Speaking of which, did they go away, and if not, how did they change?
lord_blackfang wrote:I wonder if you can take 0-1 units as allies... like Death Company.
The jump pack costs an absurd amount of points for Death Company though. Why take 35 point DC Marines when you can get almost twice as many Assault Marines? All of your guys will have FNP from Priests anyway. 8 DC Marines (48 attacks on the charge) cost the same as 14 Assault Marines (56 attacks on the charge) and are a lot more fragile due to fewer bodies.
Because they fit my fluff, but other units randomly getting Furious Charge does not, so I'd prefer to use the vanilla Codex + DC if I could.
So beasts now move 12 and ignore terrain. Allegedly fearless wounds no longer exist. No more running then assaulting, but fleet does allow for a re-roll of the assault move. Hello scarabs...
Glances just ripping off HP honestly sounds more efficient than even rolling on the damage chart, Gauss should be quite nice.
Now I'm just really curious if Relentless will end up giving an extra shot or just allows you to assault.
edit: regarding relentless:
Rixitotal wrote:no, just can move and shoot and shoot and assult with heavy and rapid fire weapons.
It's true we all have heavy tanks and transports coming out of our ears. I don't love the idea of having to buy new models but I actually really like the thought of new models becoming powerful, mix things up, see some new army types. I'll be excited for the same thing in 7th ed when I'm tired of what this edition brings out. I'm almost more excited for the FAQ/Errata release that accompanies the rule book to see how the codex's change(Not that I'm not aware of how disapointing GWFAQ/Erratas can be)
Yes, but DC come with FNP and FC built in, have plenty of lovely weapon options, and are WS5. This makes them an incredibly good standalone hammer for pretty much any army in the game.
Jumping to conclusions eh? There are quite a few armies that don't want to have absolutely anything to do with 35 point Space Marines with normal 3+ saves and no invulnerable save.
Someone with an account on reddit ask the guy about the flyers' evade rule. What does it include in detail? Can they evade against anything shooting at them, or only against enemy flyers? Is that also the only way for flyers to gain a cover save?
If allies are bonus FOC slots, every army will have to get an ally to have the extra slots and remain competitive.
Apparently allies are not bonus FOC slots. It just happens that the FOC doubles at over 2000 points games. The WD report was 2500 points which explains the fact they had more than 3 heavies etc. Play 2000 or 2001 point games (don't know which one it is) and you can have 6 heavies from your single codex. 6 Doom Scythes... *faints* ....
usernamesareannoying wrote:are detachment slots gone and were going to percentages or are we still stuck with the standard 6 troops, 3 elites etc?
That's been confirmed several times over the course of the thread. Specifically in the last few pages, where the slots allowed for Allies have been discussed.
If allies are bonus FOC slots, every army will have to get an ally to have the extra slots and remain competitive.
Apparently allies are not bonus FOC slots. It just happens that the FOC doubles at over 2000 points games. The WD report was 2500 points which explains the fact they had more than 3 heavies etc. Play 2000 or 2001 point games (don't know which one it is) and you can have 6 heavies from your single codex. 6 Doom Scythes... *faints* ....
Thank you Therion. I'll be able to compliment my 3 hammerheads with my 8 broadsides in 2000+ games. I'm very happy about that.
Yes, but DC come with FNP and FC built in, have plenty of lovely weapon options, and are WS5. This makes them an incredibly good standalone hammer for pretty much any army in the game.
Jumping to conclusions eh? There are quite a few armies that don't want to have absolutely anything to do with 35 point Space Marines with normal 3+ saves and no invulnerable save.
Someone with an account on reddit ask the guy about the flyers' evade rule. What does it include in detail? Can they evade against anything shooting at them, or only against enemy flyers? Is that also the only way for flyers to gain a cover save?
For all intents they basically have a 5+ invul now through FNP against anything other than missiles or lascannons plus an extra 2 attacks from Rage now and no longer forced directional movement. Looks like a pretty awesome unit. Not to mention if you make them Jumpers and then they get hammer of wrath too.
Fafnir wrote:I have a Reddit account. Need anything asked?
Q: Can you explain the flyers' evade rule? What does it include in detail? Are there any other ways for the flyers to gain protection like cover saves against enemy shooting? Do flyers get the cover save from moving like skimmers do?
So if everything is Brother-in-Arms with its self like the chart says. Dose that mean you can ally with your own army, becouse it is grey if you can't ally with them at all. Then we could be running around with 3 HQ, 4 Elite, 8 Troops, 4 Fast, and 4 Heavy from the same book. Just need 2 HQ and 3 Troop choose first.
What are the rules for fortification slot? Is there a point limit? What are some options and their relative point cost to each other?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 4 minutes ago
all the fortifcation stuff already has a GW terrain model. the walls are 50pts. bastion 75, and the big darkangel fort, yes the massive one is over 200. 220 in the white dwarf
Noir wrote:So if everything is Brother-in-Arms with its self like the chart says. Dose that mean you can ally with your own army, becouse it is grey if you can't ally with them at all. Then we could be running around with 3 HQ, 4 Elite, 8 Troops, 4 Fast, and 4 Heavy from the same book. Just need 2 HQ and 3 Troop choose first.
That chart is not the one from the rulebook. While the alliances between codexes appear to be the same, we don't know yet if armies can ally with themselves.
And it was just mentioned that the allied slots aren't extras, just the number you're allowed for allies.
Do the allied detachment units take up slots in your normal force org chart?
For example, can you take 2 of your main army's HQs plus an allied HQ for a total of 3? Or can you still only take a max of 2 HQs total, and if you have an allied HQ, you only get 1 of your main HQs?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 3 minutes ago
no its a new chart, with 1 compulsory HQ, 1 compulsory troop and 1 optional, and 1 optional for all of them.
Looks like it IS a bonus FOC. In smaller games, I guess an army could take a detachment of it's own codex to access the bonus HQ/Troop/ETC slots....
Weathercock 3 points 7 minutes ago
Here are a few on behalf of Dakkadakka.com:
Are there any new vehicle types (in addition to flyers?)
How does a flyer's 'evade' rule work?
And are there any new universal special rules that really jump out? Or big changes to old ones?
Is sweeping advance still around? Has it changed?
How do fortifications/fortification slots work? Are their costs worked into your normal points allowance, or are they extra?
Thanks.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 59 seconds ago
hello dakka dakka.
chariots. look like they work like the necron command barge. and heavy, works like the monlith.
you may choose to evade if you are zooming (as opposed to hovering) works like going to ground and gives you jink but can only shoot snap shots next turn.
acute senses is rerolling outflank. rage is only +2 attack on assult. and as far as i can see fearless dosnt take extra wounds, i looked in the combat section and coudnt find anything about it either.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So with relentless not being necessary to shoot at full range with rapid fire, looks like the phaeron upgrade is just to allow warriors to double-tap and then assault afterwards.
Automatically Appended Next Post: CSM and Codex: daemons are battle brothers.
Evade was clarified to be simply going to ground. If anyone reading this is going to use flyers here's how it works:
You bring your Vendetta into play on turn two and destroy my Predator with it. On my turn I start shooting at your Vendetta with my Devastator squad. You declare that you're evading. You gain a cover save against my shots, and I only hit you on 6's anyway. If you survive, which you will, your Vendetta is removed from the table and will return on your turn on a 2+ from a table edge. On the turn it returns (right away) all your shooting will be snap firing meaning BS1. Your lascannons are twin-linked anyway so you don't care that much. You'll hit with 1 lascannon even with BS1.
Now, there's flyers like the Doom Scythe which always hit with their Death Ray anyway because it doesn't even use the BS profile. Night Scythes don't care much either since their gun is also twin-linked and they're looking for 6's anyway because every 6 is 3 hits. All of the Necron flyers especially will just evade if you shoot at them and come back next turn to pound your stuff some more.
Thanks for the (can't say clarification) verification.
Still hit a vehicle in the rear armour in close combat? A power axe might be a fairly decent anti vehicle weapon if so. Can you double check the power axe? Is it minus 1 to Initiative or is it specifically I1? Request from warseer.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago has the unwieldy rule same as a powerfist. make you I 1. and yes still rear Armour.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I just turned the corner on allies - unfair advantage to those who use it at less than 2000 points. See:
Can you ally with yourself to expand your FOC?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 1 minute ago no you may not. but at 2000 pts you get a second FOC if you want it.
When you perform Overwatch, is it possible to kill enough models so they dont actually make the distance into CC with you?
If 2 or more units charge 1 unit, can you overwatch both of them? If 4 units charge 2 units, can both units shoot each unit or is it limited to 1 charging unit only?
Any change to Swarms? Still double wounds from blast and template?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 4 minutes ago
swarms are the same.
you over watch first and take from the front. so yea can affect assults. only 1 over watch a turn.
Flamestorm cannons are good defenses on land raiders who fear scarabs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another one I just thought of: How are models in combat measured? Is it still 2" from models in base to base with enemy models?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago
yup still the same, but models pile in in I order instead of all at the start.
It's the sound of every Tyranid player putting a gun in their mouth.
I find double FOC's hilarious at 2000 points. No way that makes any sense. 2500 points maybe but 2000 points isn't big enough for 6 heavies. 2000 point lists will be wildly imbalanced. Tournaments would therefore be run at 1999 points at most.
tetrisphreak wrote:Still hit a vehicle in the rear armour in close combat? A power axe might be a fairly decent anti vehicle weapon if so.
Can you double check the power axe? Is it minus 1 to Initiative or is it specifically I1? Request from warseer.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago
has the unwieldy rule same as a powerfist. make you I 1. and yes still rear Armour.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I just turned the corner on allies - unfair advantage to those who use it at less than 2000 points. See:
Can you ally with yourself to expand your FOC?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 1 minute ago
no you may not. but at 2000 pts you get a second FOC if you want it.
So right when the norm was becoming 2000 pt games again. It got capped. I can't see 2000pts being popular in casual games if it jacks up the FOC. I don't like it.
So right when the norm was becoming 2000 pt games again. It got capped. I can't see 2000pts being popular in casual games if it jacks up the FOC. I don't like it.
They should've made it over 2000 points for double FOC so we could use that round number for our games while still keeping things reasonable. Oh well, tournaments will just have to write 'single FOC' down in the rules package.
Yes, but DC come with FNP and FC built in, have plenty of lovely weapon options, and are WS5. This makes them an incredibly good standalone hammer for pretty much any army in the game.
Jumping to conclusions eh? There are quite a few armies that don't want to have absolutely anything to do with 35 point Space Marines with normal 3+ saves and no invulnerable save.
Only 35 points if you buy a jump pack per model, and now FNP is invul to power weapons.
Not to mention, if you add Lemartes or Astorath, they get rerolls to hit and wound with WS5 S5 I5, and because they're jump infantry they get an I10 hit, yeah?
You'd be insane not to consider Death Company as a viable unit. Run the math and see how many MEQs a unit of Death Company can put out on the charge.
Plus, Rage, is now going to confer 2 hits on the charge, in addition to DC's 2 base, +1 for pistol +1 for charge, rerolls hitting and wounding on 3s, yeah, sorry, that unit is incredible in the assault.
tetrisphreak wrote:
And I just turned the corner on allies - unfair advantage to those who use it at less than 2000 points. See:
Can you ally with yourself to expand your FOC?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 1 minute ago
no you may not. but at 2000 pts you get a second FOC if you want it.
You hear that?
It's the sound of every Tyranid player putting a gun in their mouth.
Fearless Wounds being removed is promising.
Plus, Rage giving all out-of-synapse "Feed" Tyranids +2A is nice too.
I honestly don't see those two additions being nearly enough from removing the nids out of the "joke army" category.
Tyranids will be using fairly mediocre units against armies that are allied to have some of the most optimized units available now. Instead of going against armies that had exploitable weaknesses, they'll be facing armies that cover up their weaknesses with allies, while the Tyranids' own will be more painful than ever.
Only 35 points if you buy a jump pack per model, and now FNP is invul to power weapons.
Not to mention, if you add Lemartes or Astorath, they get rerolls to hit and wound with WS5 S5 I5, and because they're jump infantry they get an I10 hit, yeah?
You'd be insane not to consider Death Company as a viable unit. Run the math and see how many MEQs a unit of Death Company can put out on the charge.
They're still more vulnerable to everything in the game than Assault Marines under the Sanguinary Priest bubble because they have 75% less wounds, not to mention the fact that they also do less damage than those Assault Marines because there's more of the AM. DC and especially jumping ones are overpriced. Are you saying your DOABA army doesn't have multiple Sanguinary Priests around? Assault Marines outperform DC in every respect point by point and by taking only masses of them you're not providing your opponent any juicy targets to cash in from. If you can't see this we have nothing further to discuss. It's from the ABC of army list building.
...but you get to move 6" after disembarking. End result is the same as now.
End result is not the same. Firstly the transport itself will be further away than before, and secondly from what we've heard disembarking isn't the same. You no longer disembark 2" away from the doors but in base to base contact with any part of the vehicle's hull or base. Someone could confirm this from the dude on reddit if they have the time.
tetrisphreak wrote:Still hit a vehicle in the rear armour in close combat? A power axe might be a fairly decent anti vehicle weapon if so.
Can you double check the power axe? Is it minus 1 to Initiative or is it specifically I1? Request from warseer.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 1 minute ago
has the unwieldy rule same as a powerfist. make you I 1. and yes still rear Armour.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I just turned the corner on allies - unfair advantage to those who use it at less than 2000 points. See:
Can you ally with yourself to expand your FOC?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 1 minute ago
no you may not. but at 2000 pts you get a second FOC if you want it.
So right when the norm was becoming 2000 pt games again. It got capped. I can't see 2000pts being popular in casual games if it jacks up the FOC. I don't like it.
Most Fantasy players play to 3000 points (which is alot closer to 2000 in 40k ) but ignore cap for doubling of Special and Rare slots. This will be no different.
Only 35 points if you buy a jump pack per model, and now FNP is invul to power weapons.
Not to mention, if you add Lemartes or Astorath, they get rerolls to hit and wound with WS5 S5 I5, and because they're jump infantry they get an I10 hit, yeah?
You'd be insane not to consider Death Company as a viable unit. Run the math and see how many MEQs a unit of Death Company can put out on the charge.
They're still more vulnerable to everything in the game than Assault Marines under the Sanguinary Priest bubble because they have 75% less wounds. Are you saying your DOABA army doesn't have multiple Sanguinary Priests around? Assault Marines outperform DC in every respect point by point and by taking only masses of them you're not providing your opponent any juicy targets to cash in from. If you can't see this we have nothing further to discuss. It's from the ABC of army list building.
Within their own codex, sure, Assault Marines will outdo the Death Company, but as far ally material, Death Company are some fantastic. Low maintenance, very powerful, with plenty of options to be incredibly deadly. A minimally equipped unit with Lemartes is going to be something to watch for.
Within their own codex, sure, Assault Marines will outdo the Death Company, but as far ally material, Death Company are some fantastic.
I'd rather ally with IG, and if I was IG I'd rather ally with Necrons. Necrons get a bonus Vendetta and a CCS with officer of the fleet, while IG get a couple solar pulses to protect their stuff with night fighting, and a Doom Scythe. Bless the Emperor for the unholy alliance of the Imperial Navy and the Necrontyr.
Reddit rulebook guy has decided to call it a day. Still, quite a wealth of information just from that 2 hours or so he blogged with all of us. I've made sure all his responses were highlighted in orange for those who need to scroll back and read through them. Just filter the thread.
So if jump infantry get a free I10 attack, do they use their regular weapons for that?
So Vanguard Vets with power fists or thunder hammers strike first?
Was wondering about that as well...
anyone come across this yet?
Fairly certain I read in this thread that it's base strength not using your cloce combat weapons.
Seeing as how they're Impact hits and not so much swings of swords/fists/folding chairs, i think that's right. 1 A per model, at base strength and I10. So probably AP- as well.
So if jump infantry get a free I10 attack, do they use their regular weapons for that?
So Vanguard Vets with power fists or thunder hammers strike first?
Was wondering about that as well...
anyone come across this yet?
Fairly certain I read in this thread that it's base strength not using your cloce combat weapons.
Seeing as how they're Impact hits and not so much swings of swords/fists/folding chairs, i think that's right. 1 A per model, at base strength and I10. So probably AP- as well.
Just for that I am going to build an ork army weiling folding chairs as CC weapons and wearing wrestler tights hehe.
I did not catch him in time to ask about the instant death rules.
So if jump infantry get a free I10 attack, do they use their regular weapons for that?
So Vanguard Vets with power fists or thunder hammers strike first?
Was wondering about that as well...
anyone come across this yet?
Fairly certain I read in this thread that it's base strength not using your cloce combat weapons.
Seeing as how they're Impact hits and not so much swings of swords/fists/folding chairs, i think that's right. 1 A per model, at base strength and I10. So probably AP- as well.
Thinking of them as impact hits does make a lot more sense, thanks.
Seeing as how they're Impact hits and not so much swings of swords/fists/folding chairs, i think that's right. 1 A per model, at base strength and I10. So probably AP- as well.
No. That's been answered. You get to use your close combat weapon and other special rules. It's not an impact hit of any kind. However I'm sure there are provisions in the new special rule for all 'strikes last' weapons like power fists and power axes and thunder hammers that they strike last no matter what your initiative is.
...yes, they want to sell you more Marines with jump packs. Wraiths are happy about it too.
Within their own codex, sure, Assault Marines will outdo the Death Company, but as far ally material, Death Company are some fantastic.
I'd rather ally with IG, and if I was IG I'd rather ally with Necrons. Necrons get a bonus Vendetta and a CCS with officer of the fleet, while IG get a couple solar pulses to protect their stuff with night fighting, and a Doom Scythe. Bless the Emperor for the unholy alliance of the Imperial Navy and the Necrontyr.
As an IG player, I tend to agree though a SM librarian is also tempting. I don't think we could take more than one solar pulse without giving away too many points.
Seeing as how they're Impact hits and not so much swings of swords/fists/folding chairs, i think that's right. 1 A per model, at base strength and I10. So probably AP- as well.
No. That's been answered. You get to use your close combat weapon and other special rules. It's not an impact hit of any kind. However I'm sure there are provisions in the new special rule for all 'strikes last' weapons like power fists and power axes and thunder hammers that they strike last no matter what your initiative is.
...yes, they want to sell you more Marines with jump packs. Wraiths are happy about it too.
If not, well, considering how broken a lot of the stuff we've seen so far seems to be, it's wouldn't be that big of a surprise anyway.
Within their own codex, sure, Assault Marines will outdo the Death Company, but as far ally material, Death Company are some fantastic.
I'd rather ally with IG, and if I was IG I'd rather ally with Necrons. Necrons get a bonus Vendetta and a CCS with officer of the fleet, while IG get a couple solar pulses to protect their stuff with night fighting, and a Doom Scythe. Bless the Emperor for the unholy alliance of the Imperial Navy and the Necrontyr.
As an IG player, I tend to agree though a SM librarian is also tempting. I don't think we could take more than one solar pulse without giving away too many points.
You can't get a second solar pulse anyway, because you can't get a second Royal Court. Actually, the question is if you can get a solar pulse at all as you are required to take an Overlord to get a Royal Court. And it isn't known if you are allowed to take that Royal Court as a "free" HQ choice within the ally FoC.
I thought it odd that in the WD where it was showing off all the different staff painted armies the guy with the huge Ork army said he was going to be painting up another 9 killa kans when he clearly allready had 3 in the photograph.
Perhaps its possible to ally with your own army to gain access the the additional FOC slots at the cost of an additional mandatory troops and HQ choice?
Lepuke wrote:I thought it odd that in the WD where it was showing off all the different staff painted armies the guy with the huge Ork army said he was going to be painting up another 9 killa kans when he clearly allready had 3 in the photograph.
Perhaps its possible to ally with your own army to gain access the the additional FOC slots at the cost of an additional mandatory troops and HQ choice?
Confirmed negative. That's just more GW wankspeak.
Can someone confirm if THIS: is how the FoC will work now. Or will it double the min units to 2 HQ + 4 Troops aswell?
Also, is the To Wound table the same, or are there any changes and how many Hull Points do Dark Eldar Vehicles ( Raiders / Venoms / Razorwings / Voidravens ) have?
Lepuke wrote:I thought it odd that in the WD where it was showing off all the different staff painted armies the guy with the huge Ork army said he was going to be painting up another 9 killa kans when he clearly allready had 3 in the photograph.
Perhaps its possible to ally with your own army to gain access the the additional FOC slots at the cost of an additional mandatory troops and HQ choice?
It looks like all armies may get an additional FOC at 2000+ points.
So a large Ork army could take six heavy choices as long as it filled the mandatory two HQ and four troop choices required by the two FOCs.
Lepuke wrote:I thought it odd that in the WD where it was showing off all the different staff painted armies the guy with the huge Ork army said he was going to be painting up another 9 killa kans when he clearly allready had 3 in the photograph.
Perhaps its possible to ally with your own army to gain access the the additional FOC slots at the cost of an additional mandatory troops and HQ choice?
At 2000 points and above the FOC doubles. 2 Warbosses, 4 mobs of boyz, and then 6 units of killa kanz is now a potential list.
Ovion wrote:Can someone confirm if THIS:
is how the FoC will work now.
Also, is the To Wound table the same, or are there any changes?
Mandatory slots come with the doubled FOC so it should be 2-4 HQ and 4-12 Troop. Otherwise it looks okay...I don't know if allies are restricted to 2000 plus games or not either.
Not really since it doesn't show you need 2 HQ and 4 Troops before you can take your 4th Elite/FA/HS.
The picture has an asterisk after allies 0-1 HQ and 0-1 troops, which means that if you take allies at all you have to take one of both of those minimum (and in the case of HQ maximum).
It's accurate.
If you play 2000 points and use allies, you have to take 2 HQ total, 3 Troops total, and then you can take 7 HS. Iron Warriors with 4 heavy support choices in 4th ed was so imbalanced that Mat Ward thought it's okay you can have 7 heavy support choices now.
- FnP being a 5+ kinda sucks, but being allowed Vs anything that isn't instant death is awesome. Bring on your power weapons!
- Vector Strike is nasty, but as it's not Smash it's not especially useful against vehicles unless you're using it with a very big Tyranid.
- Power axes sound fun, but nobody has the option yet. Hopefully that'll be in the FAQs rather than having to wait for a whole new codex.
- Eldar are pretty damn nasty. Warlocks in guardian units, with the power that lets you overwatch at full BS - not the squishy target they once were, and that's not getting into the four-foot distance on bikes or Ally possibilities.
Ovion wrote:Can someone confirm if THIS:
is how the FoC will work now.
Also, is the To Wound table the same, or are there any changes?
Your picture seems accurate according to the dude who held the rulebook and answered questions for the past two hours.
HOLY FETH! You mean to say that as a BA player I can take now 6 Vindicators! Better yet I can take 6 Devastator Squads with Missiles! . . . wait. . . then this means that SW can have 6 long fang squads. . . Well that it folks SWs are still broken as gak.
Ovion wrote:Can someone confirm if THIS:
is how the FoC will work now.
Also, is the To Wound table the same, or are there any changes?
Your picture seems accurate according to the dude who held the rulebook and answered questions for the past two hours.
Wow... if this chart is right, I can't ever see myself playing at 2K or above. I'd predict a lot of "1999" tournaments in that case, or 2K but without the extra FOC.
Thinking of my BA dreadnought army, I could then field 12 dreadnoughts, before even adding in any Death Company dreadnoughts.
That's just... silly.
In fantasy, almost no tournaments use "grand armies" over 3K points, where the allowances open up- it's just too easy to abuse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ovion wrote:OK, having hit F5 and read more, looks like THIS is the new Force Organisation Chart:
I'm dissapointed at the losing of 2D6 pen for MC's
That's a bit better, with more required troops, but still insane!
Ovion wrote:I'm dissapointed at the losing of 2D6 pen for MC's
According to this reddit dude, Smash does this:
Halve attacks against a vehicle, but double strength (which will almost always be to S10) and re-roll pens. This is in addition to MC attacks being AP2 and giving +1 to damage rolls. It certainly makes alot of sense, especially now that you can roll all your pens at the same time rather than 2D6 one at a time. It'll be really powerful alongside any buff that lets your MC re-roll hits against vehicles too.
Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.
Not really since it doesn't show you need 2 HQ and 4 Troops before you can take your 4th Elite/FA/HS.
The picture has an asterisk after allies 0-1 HQ and 0-1 troops, which means that if you take allies at all you have to take one of both of those minimum (and in the case of HQ maximum).
It's accurate.
If you play 2000 points and use allies, you have to take 2 HQ total, 3 Troops total, and then you can take 7 HS. Iron Warriors with 4 heavy support choices in 4th ed was so imbalanced that Mat Ward thought it's okay you can have 7 heavy support choices now.
Well, at least everyone can have it now, as opposed to just one army. So its not that bad.
One can assume you must actually take 2000 points in your first FoC before being able to take the second. So even at 2500 points, after taking your mandatory HQ and two troops, that doesn't leave a lot of points to get the more heavy stuff in.
Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.
Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.
We can only hope Semi-reasonably priced plastic titans? Oh hell yes. xD
Ovion wrote:I'm dissapointed at the losing of 2D6 pen for MC's
According to this reddit dude, Smash does this:
Halve attacks against a vehicle, but double strength (which will almost always be to S10) and re-roll pens. This is in addition to MC attacks being AP2 and giving +1 to damage rolls. It certainly makes alot of sense, especially now that you can roll all your pens at the same time rather than 2D6 one at a time. It'll be really powerful alongside any buff that lets your MC re-roll hits against vehicles too.
And on another note, it nerfs the Carnifex even further into obscurity.
Granted, with the 5th ed codex they were never entirely competitive, but at least they were playable. Now they're just terrible.
Therion wrote:
I'd predict a lot of "1999" tournaments in that case, or 2K but without the extra FOC.
Bingo. You won't be able to forget this sentence either because you'll see it in every rules pack: Allies are not allowed.
I'm not sure. It might end up alienating a lot of players once 6th begins to set in. I can see it varying from tournament to tournament, but I don't think it'll become the standard.
Not really since it doesn't show you need 2 HQ and 4 Troops before you can take your 4th Elite/FA/HS.
The picture has an asterisk after allies 0-1 HQ and 0-1 troops, which means that if you take allies at all you have to take one of both of those minimum (and in the case of HQ maximum).
It's accurate.
If you play 2000 points and use allies, you have to take 2 HQ total, 3 Troops total, and then you can take 7 HS. Iron Warriors with 4 heavy support choices in 4th ed was so imbalanced that Mat Ward thought it's okay you can have 7 heavy support choices now.
Well, at least everyone can have it now, as opposed to just one army. So its not that bad.
With allies, 3 HQ and 5 Troops, THEN you can have your 7 HS
Mandor wrote:One can assume you must actually take 2000 points in your first FoC before being able to take the second. So even at 2500 points, after taking your mandatory HQ and two troops, that doesn't leave a lot of points to get the more heavy stuff in.
In the reddit thread he confirmed that the only restriction on 2 FoC is simply the doubled min (2 HQ, 4 Troops)
Well i glad my tyranids are OK if i can double the FOC =)
Also not having no retreat wounds is brilliant but can i say that this is simply because purifiers are fearless =P (cheap shot i know =P )
Hopefully there is some movement based powers that can help my nids from dieing due to a hill.
The power weapon being both AP3 & 2 is interesting but is it just me or whats the point of the +1S and AP 2 compared to a power fist if it reduces you too I1?
and i wondering if having tyranids/ battle wagon orks is going to make 40k 6th ed expensive for me =(
and on the plus side the army i thinking of starting ( daemons) got a lot better.
so what are people thinking?
Lysenis wrote:HOLY FETH! You mean to say that as a BA player I can take now 6 Vindicators! Better yet I can take 6 Devastator Squads with Missiles! . . . wait. . . then this means that SW can have 6 long fang squads. . . Well that it folks SWs are still broken as gak.
Tsk tsk tsk... you think to small my child..... GKs with 12 units of Death Cults.... now THAT is broken as gak
I'd predict a lot of "1999" tournaments in that case, or 2K but without the extra FOC.
Bingo. You won't be able to forget this sentence either because you'll see it in every rules pack: Allies are not allowed.
12 Psyriflemen Dreads in a GK Army.
So old. You're thinking 5th. This is 6th. Spam flyers now.
Still, providing you're not against flier spam Psyriflemen will be pretty tough to beat, oh sorry i just got 2 pens on your tank? I don't even need to roll just take it off as you're out of HP's. And TL when you need 6's VS Fliers is still nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MadCowCrazy wrote:
Lysenis wrote:HOLY FETH! You mean to say that as a BA player I can take now 6 Vindicators! Better yet I can take 6 Devastator Squads with Missiles! . . . wait. . . then this means that SW can have 6 long fang squads. . . Well that it folks SWs are still broken as gak.
Tsk tsk tsk... you think to small my child..... GKs with 12 units of Death Cults.... now THAT is broken as gak
Or 12 Units of MSU Purifiers or 12 Paladin squads if you could somehow fit the points in...
RiTides wrote:[Wow... if this chart is right, I can't ever see myself playing at 2K or above. I'd predict a lot of "1999" tournaments in that case, or 2K but without the extra FOC.
Ovion wrote:I'm dissapointed at the losing of 2D6 pen for MC's
According to this reddit dude, Smash does this:
Halve attacks against a vehicle, but double strength (which will almost always be to S10) and re-roll pens. This is in addition to MC attacks being AP2 and giving +1 to damage rolls. It certainly makes alot of sense, especially now that you can roll all your pens at the same time rather than 2D6 one at a time. It'll be really powerful alongside any buff that lets your MC re-roll hits against vehicles too.
And on another note, it nerfs the Carnifex even further into obscurity.
Granted, with the 5th ed codex they were never entirely competitive, but at least they were playable. Now they're just terrible.
Therion wrote:
I'd predict a lot of "1999" tournaments in that case, or 2K but without the extra FOC.
Bingo. You won't be able to forget this sentence either because you'll see it in every rules pack: Allies are not allowed.
I'm not sure. It might end up alienating a lot of players once 6th begins to set in. I can see it varying from tournament to tournament, but I don't think it'll become the standard.
I disagree, carnifex with rage are a very very good tank hunter now, it can get the +d3 attacks too and as far as we know this combines with the new +2 attacks from rage making it 8 possible attacks on charge re rolling 1's, yeah its I1, but thats more attacks than a bleeding trygon, im gonna be dusting mine off to see how they do
Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.
And that is bad...how?
Because this is all a money ploy by GW. Allies meanes that if you collected a single army all your life you are now at a disadvantage because your not as flexible as those with two or more armies now. So now you have to buy more models to stay competitive. Worse yet now you have to get more models for the army you already have because at 2000+ points you can take up to double your foc slots. So even if you ignore allies and stick to the same armies your now still at a disadvantage because the other guy who shelled out the money can field his mega spam list (24 razor backs sure!, 18 leman russ, you got it!), include his broken allies (sucks if your not friends with Draigo), AND field a fortress.... This is not balanced at all.
In the reddit thread he confirmed that the only restriction on 2 FoC is simply the doubled min (2 HQ, 4 Troops)
Here's a 2000 pts 6th edition army single codex no allies because it's a fluffy totally non power gamery army that likes their airplanes but doesn't like your airplanes:
I can't imagine they'll take away the negative side of Rage (must move towards closest enemy unit). But even with that, I think +2 attacks is pretty sweet for my death company and death company dreadnoughts.
Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.
And that is bad...how?
Because this is all a money ploy by GW. Allies meanes that if you collected a single army all your life you are now at a disadvantage because your not as flexible as those with two or more armies now. So now you have to buy more models to stay competitive. Worse yet now you have to get more models for the army you already have because at 2000+ points you can take up to double your foc slots. So even if you ignore allies and stick to the same armies your now still at a disadvantage because the other guy who shelled out the money can field his mega spam list (24 razor backs sure!, 18 leman russ, you got it!), include his broken allies (sucks if your not friends with Draigo), AND field a fortress.... This is not balanced at all.
It's not like people will actually play with doubled FOC. Also, taking terrain improves the game balance overall, especially in tournaments, which aren't exactly renowned for their plentiful supply of appropriate terrain.
Is there a points limit for allies? I have read something about 20% of the total but that was a while ago. That would cut down significantly on the ineviable abuse that allies will allow.
I really, really hope that there are serious limitations on allies.
Puscifer wrote:One thing I want to know, aside from allies, is the new rage USR.
Is it just +2A or does it include the 5th ed rules?
My opinion is, if it is just +2A, BADC Armies are going to become very very deadly and much more reliable.
It is only +2A, no other restrictions.
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Palindrome wrote:Is there a points limit for allies? I have read something about 20% of the total but that was a while ago. That would cut down significantly on the ineviable abuse that allies will allow.
I really, really hope that there are serious limitations on allies.
Read the Reddit thread. No limitations other than the Allies FoC.
In the reddit thread he confirmed that the only restriction on 2 FoC is simply the doubled min (2 HQ, 4 Troops)
Here's a 2000 pts 6th edition army single codex no allies because it's a fluffy totally non power gamery army that likes their airplanes but doesn't like your airplanes:
Spartan089 wrote:Allies? More flyers? Fortifications you can just plop onto the field for little points cost? Double foc after 2000+ points?! GW is turning 6th into apocalypse. Next thing you know they'll be selling us plastic titans.
And that is bad...how?
Because this is all a money ploy by GW. Allies meanes that if you collected a single army all your life you are now at a disadvantage because your not as flexible as those with two or more armies now. So now you have to buy more models to stay competitive. Worse yet now you have to get more models for the army you already have because at 2000+ points you can take up to double your foc slots. So even if you ignore allies and stick to the same armies your now still at a disadvantage because the other guy who shelled out the money can field his mega spam list (24 razor backs sure!, 18 leman russ, you got it!), include his broken allies (sucks if your not friends with Draigo), AND field a fortress.... This is not balanced at all.
First we all know it is to sell models, it what GW dose after all. But really, it is a point based game if the guys feilding 18 leman ruse and your playing vs him, you got the points. You don't have to play with everything you have, play 1500 now all them models are just wasted money for him.
The 
intergalactic hunter which devourers planets on apocalyptic scale can work out how to assault some one in a building or woods without 
so all those awesome sauces spells in the new "lores" are pointless in the codex if the best ones can't be cast by the psyker that rolls them. 
for my death company and death company dreadnoughts.
