Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
A settlement with BTP? While I understand trading your silence on the matter for money back as the , I'd point out that it explicitly goes against what you posted so often and pretty much gives up on the biggest moral point you were trying to make with your youtube videos. Again, I understand that you need to look out for your finances first but from a strictly observer stance it is disappointing that ultimately BTP got exactly what they wanted first and most (silence on the matter).
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
A settlement with BTP? While I understand trading your silence on the matter for money back as the , I'd point out that it explicitly goes against what you posted so often and pretty much gives up on the biggest moral point you were trying to make with your youtube videos. Again, I understand that you need to look out for your finances first but from a strictly observer stance it is disappointing that ultimately BTP got exactly what they wanted first and most (silence on the matter).
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
A settlement with BTP? While I understand trading your silence on the matter for money back as the , I'd point out that it explicitly goes against what you posted so often and pretty much gives up on the biggest moral point you were trying to make with your youtube videos. Again, I understand that you need to look out for your finances first but from a strictly observer stance it is disappointing that ultimately BTP got exactly what they wanted first and most (silence on the matter).
*looks at 61 page thread*
They hardly got silence on the matter.
Well the video's are down, so there's that. Kinda sad that it was taken down because that's a pretty good warning to anyone considering Blue Table Painting
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
A settlement with BTP? While I understand trading your silence on the matter for money back as the , I'd point out that it explicitly goes against what you posted so often and pretty much gives up on the biggest moral point you were trying to make with your youtube videos. Again, I understand that you need to look out for your finances first but from a strictly observer stance it is disappointing that ultimately BTP got exactly what they wanted first and most (silence on the matter).
*looks at 61 page thread*
They hardly got silence on the matter.
Well the video's are down, so there's that. Kinda sad that it was taken down because that's a pretty good warning to anyone considering Blue Table Painting
I did not notice that... that is a bit unfortunate.
If that was part of the settlement, I'm sure Tenebre came out on top, but it may end up creating some future victims of BTP. :(
I didn't realize he took the videos down as well as I was referring to silence in the present and future, not deleting the past as well. That is even more disappointing. I can't fault him though for looking out for his own finances as that frankly should be his own personal priority. It just doesn't help the community as much nor does it put any pressure on BTP to not do the same thing to someone else and claim ignorance. I'm curious if BTP will put some sort of penalty/prohibition/disclaimer about posting "negative" videos about their work into their terms at some point. It obviously would be very difficult to enforce but from the tone of their previous responses to this whole matter I wouldn't put trying to do so past them.
The videos are quite disappointing but I do believe it is standard for any settlement to have a non-disclosure aspect to it, no? I do not see any fault in this.
As a community, it should still be our job to ensure as few people do to BTP as possible or are at least warned about the absolute lack of ethics. I am sure there is still stuff online about BTP's poor handling (including this thread). In addition, I would hope more videos of other people unsatisfied with there stuff would come up. BTP has taken a hit but the pressure should be relaxed till they fix their ways.
warboss wrote: I didn't realize he took the videos down as well as I was referring to silence in the present and future, not deleting the past as well. That is even more disappointing. I can't fault him though for looking out for his own finances as that frankly should be his own personal priority. It just doesn't help the community as much nor does it put any pressure on BTP to not do the same thing to someone else and claim ignorance. I'm curious if BTP will put some sort of penalty/prohibition/disclaimer about posting "negative" videos about their work into their terms at some point. It obviously would be very difficult to enforce but from the tone of their previous responses to this whole matter I wouldn't put trying to do so past them.
Yeah. That's something. A clause in the contract voiding any form of refund or whatnot if any form of review is posted. That would suck.
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
Well.... glad you guys at least came to a settlement, and even better, you now have a legally binding (i'm assuming, due to the NDA) settlement agreement that he HAS to make good on.
Shouldn't have come to this though. I know you can't comment, but just thinking outloud.... i sure hope that recoupment of any incurred legal fees to get to this step were part of the settlement on your end.
Just goes to show what a freakin' wild west atmosphere commission painting can be. Certainly there are great stand up guys out there, but you really need to do your research very thoroughly.
And this is a best case scenario between two parties both within the same country. Once you add an ocean separating them into the mix (and maybe even another language), I suspect trying to "resolve" an issue gets even worse for the customer.
ClockworkChaos wrote: The videos are quite disappointing but I do believe it is standard for any settlement to have a non-disclosure aspect to it, no? I do not see any fault in this.
Very typical. Also so is non-admission of fault. I'd say any actual / punitive damages suit that reaches settlement agreement, if either / both sides have a lawyer worth their salt, it'll be in there.
(I'm a currently registered and certified paralegal, formerly practicing).
ClockworkChaos wrote: The videos are quite disappointing but I do believe it is standard for any settlement to have a non-disclosure aspect to it, no? I do not see any fault in this.
Very typical. Also so is non-admission of fault. I'd say any actual / punitive damages suit that reaches settlement agreement, if either / both sides have a lawyer worth their salt, it'll be in there.
(I'm a currently registered and certified paralegal, formerly practicing).
Thanks! That is what I thought but it is very helpful for the confirmation.
I still grumble at BTP but at least tenebre got what he wanted.
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
And apparently involved removing the original video, which is a damn shame.
Thanks for letting us know that an agreement was reached.
Even without the details and the videos, I think this thread stands as a testament to the experiences he had, and others shared their own as well. The videos were particularly damning, but as noted, I can't fault someone for acting in a manner that covers their financial needs.
While it has slipped off the first page, this thread is still in the top 13 or so results on Google.
It dosen't for me. Too bad the video was taken down, was a huge warning to the community of what blue table painting was all about.
BTP's gakky videos are what helped them trick people thinking they were a positive part of the community, and the fact Shawn works so hard to hide any negative responses under a ton of useless content keeps many people distracted by their smoke and mirrors.
Tenabre got taken for a ride since no one in the community was able to warn him, and I wounder how often people comeing back into the hobby gets ripped off by BTP like he did.
ToxicBox wrote: I wonder, could we post his videos? So that he himself isn't breaking contract but the warning would still be there
For a variety of reasons, this will not work, unless BTP's counsel was a buffoon.
There are many, many legal things at play in that one sentence of mine above, legal issues most people don't really understand unless you've worked in the profession (for instance, I squeal with glee every time i see a layman's conversation about IP show up). Ten has copyright to those videos. He also (allegedly) has a settlement that requires that he cannot host or post them.
That settlement probably also states that he has to take action to have them taken down if either party to the settlement discovers them hosted / posted elsewhere - action along the lines of a "Cease and Desist using my Copyrighted stuff without permission, which you definitely don't have because it probably violates my settlement" type thing. It's possible not, but if i were BTP, it'd be in my stipulations pursuant to settlement and written into the settlement.
Again, TOTAL conjecture on my part, but if BTP's counsel was worth its fees, they are going to do everything they possibly can to make it as hard as possible for those vids to see the light of internet again.
If you downloaded the video before he made it private, you could repost it at the risk of flagrantly violating his copyrighted material. It is, however, up to him to decide whether he would want to persue that violation with a DMCA takedown notice to youtube. I doubt (and this is a wild guess) that his agreement covers him enforcing his video's copyright but rather prohibits him from actively disseminating it instead.
warboss wrote: If you downloaded the video before he made it private, you could repost it at the risk of flagrantly violating his copyrighted material. It is, however, up to him to decide whether he would want to persue that violation with a DMCA takedown notice to youtube. I doubt (and this is a wild guess) that his agreement covers him enforcing his video's copyright but rather prohibits him from actively disseminating it instead.
Again, all conjecture on my part, and Ten can't confirm.... but...
You'd be surprised, Warboss. There probably is a clause that states that for a set period of time (likely several years) Ten must take "reasonable action by a person of ordinary sense" to cease and desist violators of that CP that either he discovers or that BTP brings to his attention and whereupon within a reasonable period, Ten must furnish proof that he has attempted to deliver a C&D (email, certified letter, etc). Yes he's ultimate not responsible if someone pilfers his vids, but if either of them find out about it, as part of the settlement i would be willing to bet that there's a "you have to at least try to keep people from putting these vids up".
You have to remember, from BTP's perspective, those vids (despite being accurate) are a fiduciary damage mechanism to his business. It's a highly visible, damning series of pretty much undeniable proof of not getting what you paid for, and then jumping through hoops to get it made right. He wants to make sure those never see a URL they can call home again.
Maybe not, but again, that's a stipulation i'd put in. Remember, settlements are about both parties walking away mostly happy, but not 100% (the old anecdote about a good deal being that neither side is really happy with it is very true). Ten was probably after money, in various forms, as he got his models back. BTP wants the videos to go away. Both of them want the entire situation to just go away ; no one in their right mind wants to actually go to court due to the cost involved. Also not sure where Ten is from (St. Louis?) but BTP is in Utah. I won't claim to know about either ones state laws, or how their state courts work, but whatever the potential cause of action was that led to discussions and settlement, one or the other of them (and im' going to go out on a limb and say its BTP, but i could be wrong... ) would end up having to travel to venue.
Again, not sure about the midwest, or mountain west zones, but on the eastern sea board, typically the plaintiff in an interstate case such as this has one of three options: 1) you can file a civil claim in federal court. motions will be made on venue. Venue could go either way, but usually it favors plaintiff. That said, in federal court its not guaranteed to be in St. Louis.
2) If Ten's state allows it, he can file in St. Louis. BTP has to incur travel costs, or motion for change of venue. Again, this usually favors whoever has a "hardship".
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
I am happy to hear that a settlement has been reached, and even more happy that it is a settlement that you are satisfied with.
I'm glad you came to a satisfactory settlement but it is a shame the videos had to be removed. Ideally the videos would have stayed but you would have ended with "well BTP made good in the end" but I guess that was never going to happen. We do still have this thread which is good (you aren't going to have to remove all your posts from the threads are you??), but when people come along looking for commission painters it would have been better that the videos had remained. I can totally imagine people searching for info on BTP but missing this thread.
warboss wrote: If you downloaded the video before he made it private, you could repost it at the risk of flagrantly violating his copyrighted material. It is, however, up to him to decide whether he would want to persue that violation with a DMCA takedown notice to youtube. I doubt (and this is a wild guess) that his agreement covers him enforcing his video's copyright but rather prohibits him from actively disseminating it instead.
Again, all conjecture on my part, and Ten can't confirm.... but...
You'd be surprised, Warboss. There probably is a clause that states that for a set period of time (likely several years) Ten must take "reasonable action by a person of ordinary sense" to cease and desist violators of that CP that either he discovers or that BTP brings to his attention and whereupon within a reasonable period, Ten must furnish proof that he has attempted to deliver a C&D (email, certified letter, etc). Yes he's ultimate not responsible if someone pilfers his vids, but if either of them find out about it, as part of the settlement i would be willing to bet that there's a "you have to at least try to keep people from putting these vids up".
Thanks for the clarifcation. I would be surprised if BTP had thought of that as they IMHO seem to come off in this whole affair as greedy and vindictive but not particularly good long term planners.
It just stinks to high heaven that Blue table painting gets to walk away with their hands cleaned of the whole affair and the community as a whole suffers because of it.
swampyturtle wrote: It just stinks to high heaven that Blue table painting gets to walk away with their hands cleaned of the whole affair and the community as a whole suffers because of it.
Yep. While Blue Table Painting has had a long history of doing this kind of crap, the collective memory of the community doesn't really hold onto that in an upfront aspect. Undoubtedly, Blue Table Painting will sucker in new people who aren't as active online or who missed this, and another video review will pop up lambasting the crappy paint job and the cycle will begin anew, with Blue Table Painting going "This never happens to me. This is the first time anything like this has happened."
I can't fault Tenebre for taking a settlement that he's (hopefully) satisfied with. Making a big show of "good for the community" is good and all, but when several thousand dollars of personal funds are thrown in contention like that, taking the out is something I'm sure most of us would do.
As much as we'd like to have a trophy to hang mangled from the castle walls, in the end it is tenebre's money and decision that he has to make.
What is required of us as a community is vigilance. BTP may have wiped their hands of it, but we should make sure that it is not forgotten by the community.
curran12 wrote: As much as we'd like to have a trophy to hang mangled from the castle walls, in the end it is tenebre's money and decision that he has to make.
What is required of us as a community is vigilance. BTP may have wiped their hands of it, but we should make sure that it is not forgotten by the community.
Well I know I have started warning people locally against btp and sending them to reputable and local painting services.
Remember, nothing ever is truly gone from the internet.
glad too hear you settled ten and hope you got everything you could have out of the deal and more mini wargaming and blue table painting will get no support or money from my wallet thank you again ten for warning people of the community
swampyturtle wrote: It just stinks to high heaven that Blue table painting gets to walk away with their hands cleaned of the whole affair and the community as a whole suffers because of it.
Well... lets not go nuts.
BTP isn't dumping toxic waste into the river or anything. They're essentially just a professional service that occasionally does shoddy work. It seems hard to argue that every project they do leaves the consumer unhappy, which means that the problem, while likely systemic, doesn't stem from a fundamental inability to provide the services promised.
So, there's no real policy reason to "punish" BTP beyond compensating the OP for his troubles, which apparently they did. It's easy to tell another man to keep fighting, but it's his nickle, and he gets to decide how his case gets decided. If his counsel was good, and I'm sure it was, he was encouraged to take any reasonable settlement to avoid mounting costs of litigation. Don't forget, even if they went to court, the question of fact would be the value of the paint job provided compared to the paint job paid for, which because an extremely fact intensive decision. That means eight people in a jury would have to listen to testimony from experts and look at pictures and decide by how much, if any, BTP over charged the OP.
His counsel probably also gave him a reality check as to how much he could expect back, and as long as they got something in that range (I'm wildly speculating at about 40-50% back) you take that deal.
While I would like to see them crucified, I am okay with ten getting his because that is all that matters really. I would not call BTPs work any good, you look through their videos and you see mould lines bad use of OSL and just bad painting in general. Wrap that all up in a cult like demeanor from shaun and it leaves a bad taste in anyones mouth.
If enough people think that BTP will still keep delivering subpar work (in relation to what the contract says) and want to warn other they could commission a small job and review that without mentioning it on Dakkadakka first. That way one person wouldn't lose thousands of dollars worth of work but still have evidence and people would have something to reference and link to (although at the cost of the subpar commission and giving BTP some money).
warboss wrote: If you downloaded the video before he made it private, you could repost it at the risk of flagrantly violating his copyrighted material. It is, however, up to him to decide whether he would want to persue that violation with a DMCA takedown notice to youtube. I doubt (and this is a wild guess) that his agreement covers him enforcing his video's copyright but rather prohibits him from actively disseminating it instead.
Again, all conjecture on my part, and Ten can't confirm.... but...
You'd be surprised, Warboss. There probably is a clause that states that for a set period of time (likely several years) Ten must take "reasonable action by a person of ordinary sense" to cease and desist violators of that CP that either he discovers or that BTP brings to his attention and whereupon within a reasonable period, Ten must furnish proof that he has attempted to deliver a C&D (email, certified letter, etc). Yes he's ultimate not responsible if someone pilfers his vids, but if either of them find out about it, as part of the settlement i would be willing to bet that there's a "you have to at least try to keep people from putting these vids up".
Thanks for the clarifcation. I would be surprised if BTP had thought of that as they IMHO seem to come off in this whole affair as greedy and vindictive but not particularly good long term planners.
.... but that's precisely what a lawyer is for.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
curran12 wrote: As much as we'd like to have a trophy to hang mangled from the castle walls, in the end it is tenebre's money and decision that he has to make.
What is required of us as a community is vigilance. BTP may have wiped their hands of it, but we should make sure that it is not forgotten by the community.
Yup. // thread.
That pretty much sums it up. Have an exalt. I am glad Ten was made whole, and i'm glad that he got what he was looking for, and gave us all the warning. It's up to the community to stay vigilant and keep people warned.
Don't worry about the Interwebs forgetting about what happened. I did a few things to make sure this thread stays high in search results and will continue to rise slowly for the next few years.
Tenebre, now that those videos are gone, I still say you manufactured the whole controversy and the issues you claimed to have with the models were exaggerated.
Happy to hear a settlement was reached and I hope you did not end up having to pay Blue Table Painting too much money over your shameful actions.
Holy crap.
I recall speculation about BTP having to use money they get from one commission to fufill the last then wait for another to fill the current one. Maybe whatever the settlement was was the proverbial straw that broke their back?
As for the videos going down, we'll always have their own promotional images to prove they are can't do high quality work
Wait... is that just trolling Blue Tabletop Painting style or is the company actually being sold? I assume trolling but is it possible the settlement and the bad press has done them under?
"Don't actually buy this from the webstore! Contact bluetablepainting@gmail.com This purchase is for the company and all its assets, material and intellectual. You will have no bank or tax debt from the company. The owner will show you how to run everything over the course of two months. You will also gain interest in the studio building itself as a property. All details to be still negotiated."
Spoiler:
Maybe he'll throw in some free PR from miniwargaming to sweeten the deal.
I'd ask if he was high...but I don't even know perpetual stoners to be this stupid. Wow. This is complete fail on one of the highest scales imaginable!!
Don't worry about the Interwebs forgetting about what happened. I did a few things to make sure this thread stays high in search results and will continue to rise slowly for the next few years.
Tenebre, now that those videos are gone, I still say you manufactured the whole controversy and the issues you claimed to have with the models were exaggerated.
Happy to hear a settlement was reached and I hope you did not end up having to pay Blue Table Painting too much money over your shameful actions.
While being blind must be a challenge it's probably unreasonable to form an opinion on the quality of painted models if you're unable to see them.
Let's keep this thread to tenebre's army / experience and related items. If you'd like to discuss the possibility of BTP's sale please use this thread dedicated to the topic:
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
Good for you! I am glad this worked out. I do wish that they could have been mounted as a trophy but, it appears this could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. To be honest, this was resolved quicker than I thought it would be.
Spoiler:
I guess I will never be able to sell my pitchforks and torches now.
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
What I am wondering is - and someone can correct me if this is not legal. If lets say, hypothetically, I recorded the original videos that Tenebre had.... could I put them up under my own name, or would that null and void his agreement.
I would say not since speech freedoms come into affect. Also I do not know tenebre or am affected by this ruling. Not sure though what do you guys think.
Technically, Tenebre would be able to force you to take them down. But he would be under no obligation to do so, and I doubt he'd have the inclination.
fidel wrote: I would need more people to answer here... if tenebre asks I will def take them down... but otherwise...
Ten wouldn't get in trouble for you posting it. But he may or may not have to issue you a copy right claim on YouTube to take it down if he is aware of the video being posted by someone eals. Counts on the wording of the agreement and if ten wants to protect his content.
fidel wrote: I would need more people to answer here... if tenebre asks I will def take them down... but otherwise...
Why dick around doing something so petty and pointless? Even without the videos, for however brief a time BTP is going to remain around, everything anyone needs is already readily available in this thread and elsewhere.
plastictrees wrote: While being blind must be a challenge it's probably unreasonable to form an opinion on the quality of painted models if you're unable to see them.
I was kidding. See my earlier posts in the thread for context.
plastictrees wrote: While being blind must be a challenge it's probably unreasonable to form an opinion on the quality of painted models if you're unable to see them.
I was kidding. See my earlier posts in the thread for context.
Haha, yes I was lazy and rolled the dice on you being a lunatic and didn't dig into it anymore.
fidel wrote: What I am wondering is - and someone can correct me if this is not legal. If lets say, hypothetically, I recorded the original videos that Tenebre had.... could I put them up under my own name, or would that null and void his agreement.
I would say not since speech freedoms come into affect. Also I do not know tenebre or am affected by this ruling. Not sure though what do you guys think.
Tenebre has a copyright to those vids. If you illegal copy / record them, and he finds out, he can C&D you to remove them or you risk him taking action to compel you to (legal action). His settlement probably compels him to do so. (conjecture, but likely).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: Technically, Tenebre would be able to force you to take them down. But he would be under no obligation to do so, and I doubt he'd have the inclination.
This probably is incorrect.
The settlement likely has clauses that he can't promulgate the vids, and he must take reasonable action to cease and desist anyone that does that either he discovers or BTP does and alerts him to as well. I wrote a lot on this earlier, i won't bother rehashing it. If you have interest, check out my posts over the past few pages.
plastictrees wrote: While being blind must be a challenge it's probably unreasonable to form an opinion on the quality of painted models if you're unable to see them.
I was kidding. See my earlier posts in the thread for context.
Haha, yes I was lazy and rolled the dice on you being a lunatic and didn't dig into it anymore.
You do realize that his being a lunatic does not mean that he wasn't joking, yes?
The Auld Grump - 'Being a lunatic doesn't mean that I don't have a sense of humor - it just means that I will be the only one laughing' - The Joker
so I gave in here just because the youtube video of his demise is still saved on my desktop and I wondered today, if anything has changed in this case.
Happy for tenebre he reached some concensus.
For some reason I knew from the very first post that it would either go this way or dakka would be legally forced to take down the entire post.
Anyhow, nothing that BTP could have done now, other than what they did. They will have to live with the fallout, which is their fault.
Also they cannot simply act like nice guys NOW, the damage is done, and if they would disclose how much they reimbursed to their client it would open a whole bag of other issues with unhappy clients.
Mr Blue Table's meltdown appears complete, he's barely coherent and is apparently sleeping in the studio... So if you had bought into the business, you'd have a 'tenant' by now.
His wife has given him 'the big D"... (8.40)
He also appears to now be stuck with several large fantasy armies for sale.
Mr Blue Table's meltdown appears complete, he's barely coherent and is apparently sleeping in the studio... So if you had bought into the business, you'd have a 'tenant' by now.
Is it just me or is he considerably more manic than usual?
Note that Frontline Gaming (who is doing the repainting) has specifically asked that folks not discuss BTP in the comments of the videos (just FYI if you check it out). Seems like a reasonable request since they're putting in so much work to make this army right!
What I want to know is, what is tenebre doing with the army now that AoS has hit - moving to KoW? That's what I'm doing with my, now abyssal dwarf, army
This also makes me think of the large number of painted miniatures being sold on eBay with the title 'Pro Painted' when they are barely tabletop standard.
Allow me to enter the dispute.
I decided to send my Assassinorum Force to BTP for assembly and painting. I wanted a 'complete' board game. I payed for it. And I have high expectations.
Shawn was always there to quickly answer my email, give a proposition, listen to any wishes I might have. The pictures of the final product I received as 'quality control' did not look good. They look like they were taken with a very bad cellphone camera. I am hoping everything is fine.
Once my AF comes to me, I will take few photos with my phone and rest my case.
As this thread is about a specific incident (as opposed to a general thread about BTP), and the OP feels that incident has been thoroughly covered by this point, the thread is being locked.
)
