yes i did. Which is why i believe he is responding at all and the way in which he is responding as mentioned already.
@tenebre - while your actions and approach are commendable, the community is not the best source of advice.
I have been in similar situations where someone provided a service and failed to deliver on what we agreed to. Given the amount of money involved, the best thing I ever did was hire an attorney. I felt guilty about it beforehand, and very wise when the disputes were addresses quickly and without additional anxiety on my part.
These are ones I have dealt with in St Louis. They are in order from the most personal, lowest cost service, to the most sophisticated.
Most law firms will at least discuss your case with you at no cost, and it never hurts to speak with someone and at least know what your options are. My guess is you are going to find out the remedies suggested by the painting service are way, way too complex and your situation is a lot simpler to resolve than you believe. Also, you might want to read whatever contract you have with the painting company carefully and get a legal opinion on it. Some large percentage of contracts from tiny service companies like this turn out to be partly / wholly unenforceable based on how they are written.
My heart goes out to you tho. This is not the sort of thing that should ever happen.
This is inexcusable by BTP. The damning thing for me is at 14:19- the bull centaurs that are supposedly level 6? I think the video is fair and he says a lot complimentary things. However, there's simply too much detail on those great models that was purposely missed. I honestly believe Shawn wants to right this but he also needs to fix his quality control. Not painting obvious details is not cool for what was paid for these models.
The project that I completed with the was quite simple and arrives two-three weeks after it was due to me. When I called to get an update the week before they said it would be done...they told me they were trying "locate" my Limartes, 10x Jump DC, and 1 DC Dreadnought. I start throwing back I want my money and miniatures back once they found them. Whoever I was talking to said I was already to much into the process!?!?! Needless to say, when I did get my models those two weeks later they were in horrible condition. Paints just thrown on the models, no face paint for the marines, red thrown on things that didn't need red, etc Etc. I completed a before and after photo set when I was done "fixing" them and sent them those photos. A week later Shaun puts a video up explaining that not every project can go to plan and sometimes the projects are rushed due to low manning. Excuses I say...
@Tenebre....it is unfortunate that you had this experience. After watching both of your videos, you are clearly passionate about this hobby we all share. Good to know that you are playing 40k as well but I hope that you will return to Fantasy battle soon.
I understand the reasons why you are not satisfied with the work performed on your Chaos Dwarf army. That said, I do hope that you will use the army in games. It is a full FW Chaos Dwarf army. Even at bare resin, that is an army that should be seen and played with. As disappointed in the paint job as you are, not fielding the army for your enjoyment would be a shame. I am confident in saying that everyone that has posted in this thread would LOVE to get a game against that CD army...I know I would!
I look forward to seeing the Battle Reports on your YouTube channel.
On that note, if you are looking for ideas about what to film, showing off your 25k worth of Orks would be a great place to start!
Been reading this with interest. I'm still not sure what to think about this. The sums of money involved are mind-boggling. But looking at it from the perspective of a painter, I'd want to make some money. Where I live, minimum wage is $7.50 an hour. I would not paint for that kind of money, there's easier ways to make a living IMO.
For a commission painter to make even a meager living, they'd have to be charging some decent money, which would be expensive for the client. For a commission painter working at blue table painting, with Shawn's overhead and all, man, you're almost flipping rat burgers at McDonalds for what he pays ($8/hr). That might even be a better job, as mickey D could afford to pay you overtime (speculatively) and perhaps benefits.
It just seems like it sucks either way. A commission painter is either working for bare minimum money to live off of, and a buyer is paying incredibly large amounts of money for work that they could probably do on their own if they invested the time into developing painting skills and a DIY mentality, which is what this hobby is all about IMO.
As a painter, I could never do this. It would anger and frustrate me trying to please someone for only a minor amount of cash paid to me for my time, when I know I could make more money spending my time at a real job.
I'm really sorry the OP got what he did, seems like he is very passionate about the army and the lore of them, and to get such a turd back after the cash cost.
There is a reason that I no longer paint for commission other than for friends.
It takes time - and unless you are willing to spend that time then the product will not be worth what you will need to charge in order to justify that time.
But one thing that must remain at the top is that when the customer tells you what he wants then you try to produce what he wants.
Step one is making a standard - and sending in the picture of that standard for the customer to see.
It sounds, here, that BTP made a standard, lost the person that painted to that standard, then changed the standard - without updating the information that they needed to send the client.
So it went from Blood & Gore to Lava Glow - with the later being something that could be done very quickly with an airbrush and some drybrushing.
Not what the customer ordered, nor what they had shown as the work in progress - and at its core, this makes an example of bait and switch.
At this point, court seems the best choice - this was an expensive project, and one that BTP has deliberately tried to cut corners on.
I've had two projects done by btp.
The first was a converted swarmlord level 6 I had them order the figures which slowed things down as the total length of the project was close to 9 months if I remember correctly. Communication was a little ruff also until they gave up having me email them and put me in direct contact with mason who did the conversion work and responded to any emails with in an hour or so. Honestly, once i was in direct contact with him it was pretty apparent the guy enjoys what he does and will bend over backwards to knock it out of the park for you.
I also just had a level 6 dimachaeron done by them which I ordered myself this time and sent in. The turn around was around a month which is much faster than I was expecting compared to last time. It came out amazing, up close you can see where the skin is stretched etc, the teal on the base work really looks good too, i'm very happy with it. You can pick up the model and eyeball it as close as you like and see new detail they added in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQZRiA0FCgo
With that said, and shown in the link I will say there is a huge difference between what i received for level 6 work and what you received. I kind of feel as if they went overboard with osl and made almost all over your models a couple color gradient from black to red. It compares to painting the top half of a grey knight blue because he has a power weapon and not picking out any of the colors.
I hope the best for you, there is and obvious difference in what we received and considering how large your project was I feel like they should go the extra mile for you. It looks like it was a very large expense to have it painted.
Not impressed with that; it's reasonable tabletop, but I wouldn't display it. And I feel sick, why can't they hold the damn camera steady. What did they rush you for that?
winterdyne wrote: Not impressed with that; it's reasonable tabletop, but I wouldn't display it. And I feel sick, why can't they hold the damn camera steady. What did they rush you for that?
To me it looks reasonably well painted, thou with the caveat that im saying this based on a 480p resolution video, which is not ideal. From what i have seen from them, their conversion are really good but their painting is essentially just a good 4 feet standard.
Whether that is good value for money, it comes down to the individual, some people might have the money to through at something like this, but not the time or the skills. Some (like my self) very much so have the skills and rather stretch the time required as long as needed. Thou i have no issues playing with a T100 army of empire men...
winterdyne wrote: Not impressed with that; it's reasonable tabletop, but I wouldn't display it. And I feel sick, why can't they hold the damn camera steady. What did they rush you for that?
That's something I've noticed in every single video posted by BTP, the camera is always handheld and shaky, even when they're displaying the armies and models. For someone who claims to be a professional painting service, it seems very amateur. The least they could do is get a tripod for the camera and a decently lit area so film the models at, so you can see more than vague color schemes.
winterdyne wrote: Not impressed with that; it's reasonable tabletop, but I wouldn't display it. And I feel sick, why can't they hold the damn camera steady. What did they rush you for that?
That's something I've noticed in every single video posted by BTP, the camera is always handheld and shaky, even when they're displaying the armies and models. For someone who claims to be a professional painting service, it seems very amateur. The least they could do is get a tripod for the camera and a decently lit area so film the models at, so you can see more than vague color schemes.
I dont think it would be productive for them, most of their work seems a good 4 feet away standard, close up still shots would not work in their favor.
winterdyne wrote: Not impressed with that; it's reasonable tabletop, but I wouldn't display it. And I feel sick, why can't they hold the damn camera steady. What did they rush you for that?
That's something I've noticed in every single video posted by BTP, the camera is always handheld and shaky, even when they're displaying the armies and models. For someone who claims to be a professional painting service, it seems very amateur. The least they could do is get a tripod for the camera and a decently lit area so film the models at, so you can see more than vague color schemes.
I dont think it would be productive for them, most of their work seems a good 4 feet away standard, close up still shots would not work in their favor.
I'm not even talking about close up, I'm talking about decently lit and in focus. But either way it seems rather like a strike against them if their level six, the highest they offer, looks bad in the conditions you would have on the table, let alone a display case.
On that note, if you are looking for ideas about what to film, showing off your 25k worth of Orks would be a great place to start!
Sure if you are interested! I will finally have them all assembled in about 3 more weeks. So ill make one then and post in the correct forum.
on the other subject -
All i can say is BTP hasn't budged "much" they upped the refund offer to 22% (from 20%) or send them back. Thats all that's on the table realistically. As With legal matters I can not discuss anything else until its final. Sorry guys i promise to inform what I know as i can.
one other possible avenue of thought that i had, then i am going to try and stop pestering this thread. i cant stop reading this thread because it is turning into a saga, and i think we all want to see it resolved favorably to you.
Did you consider filing a complaint / calling paypal ANYWAYS ? (even though it may/may not be past the refund window)
I have seen so many times that paypal sides with the unhappy customer NOT the vendor. You have a legitmate and tangible complaint that is backed up by evidence, a video well several videos, and several threads on very large public forums - also the circumstances of the delay - were out of your control - you didnt sit on the issue , THEY did.
Call them, they might put some serious heat on BTP if you present the case right along with all the documentation and evidence, and the videos etc. The way you have documented and bared the situation for the world to see is going to work in YOUR favor, not theirs. Also if you have the help of a lawyer to call paypal, i would think this would increase your chances even more perhaps?
If he has given it to a lawyer already, which it sounds like, you should not expect tenebre to do or say ANYTHING at this stage anymore, no more videos, no information to rating companies, paypal or whatever.
Anything he does can impair the success chance at court, so better avoid it.
The simple facts are very much in his favour and I am 1000% sure BTP will either go under or return the money asked for rather than going to court.
8.000 USD is not a small sum and totally worth fighting over. I asked a friend who is a lawyer and he said these kind of cases usually end in a settlement.
For example: In this case BTP could refund him his whole commission money, while they get to keep the miniatures for selling them.
As a professional painter I hate to see threads like this. It is hard enough to get clients that are willing to pay for what your time is worth without things like this happening. From what I have seen the Chaos Dwarf army this customer requested would not have been hard to make look good by most professional painters in a fairly short amount of time. The bulk of the army looks like it was done after the original deadline and the exceptions must have been done before it
I don't like the fact that BTP is blaming the client for the backlash they are getting for this project. All that was needed to prevent the video and thread was for BTP to actually work with the customer while the commission was in progress and not to wait till there is bad press to review the commission. It is not like it was 5 or so years ago where people had cash to spare and just wanted armies that were "Good Enough". There are Asian painting firms that would have done the same or better painting for about half the price and in that same time frame. Most gamers US choose a US painting service so they can get a fast turnaround and the ability to communicate with the painter. What is the point of going with a more expensive painting service if they are not willing to follow your instructions and can not meet the stated deadline. If you are a professional painting service you should be striving to give your clients a good experience and a little better quality then they are expecting.
Rotary wrote: I've had two projects done by btp.
The first was a converted swarmlord level 6 I had them order the figures which slowed things down as the total length of the project was close to 9 months if I remember correctly. Communication was a little ruff also until they gave up having me email them and put me in direct contact with mason who did the conversion work and responded to any emails with in an hour or so. Honestly, once i was in direct contact with him it was pretty apparent the guy enjoys what he does and will bend over backwards to knock it out of the park for you.
I also just had a level 6 dimachaeron done by them which I ordered myself this time and sent in. The turn around was around a month which is much faster than I was expecting compared to last time. It came out amazing, up close you can see where the skin is stretched etc, the teal on the base work really looks good too, i'm very happy with it. You can pick up the model and eyeball it as close as you like and see new detail they added in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQZRiA0FCgo
With that said, and shown in the link I will say there is a huge difference between what i received for level 6 work and what you received. I kind of feel as if they went overboard with osl and made almost all over your models a couple color gradient from black to red. It compares to painting the top half of a grey knight blue because he has a power weapon and not picking out any of the colors.
I hope the best for you, there is and obvious difference in what we received and considering how large your project was I feel like they should go the extra mile for you. It looks like it was a very large expense to have it painted.
Hm... Sorry but if that's a level six, supposedly their highest standard, I'm not impressed at all. It looks rather bland and one-dimensional, like most BTP work I've seen. Could be the camera work, poor lightning and constant shifting of angle/focus, but as far as I can see there's no real depth in the model - it looks like it could use some proper shading and several layers of detailed highlighting. The basing is ambitious but there's just something lacking when you look at the whole thing.
Actually this seems to be the general issue with BTP: they just have too much on their plate and so they have to rush unfinished projects out the door. Then they make all these videos showing off mediocre paintjobs and calling them awesome, as if the painting somehow would become great just because Shawn says it is.
Also, it's interesting how he kind of slams the camera in the face of the painter in this video, asking "what's your nickname here at BTP?" and the guy looks uncomfortable and goes "ehrm... I don't think I actually have one yet...?" Some serious cracks in the "friendly bunch of nice guys painting together" image right there.
Rotary wrote: I've had two projects done by btp.
The first was a converted swarmlord level 6 I had them order the figures which slowed things down as the total length of the project was close to 9 months if I remember correctly. Communication was a little ruff also until they gave up having me email them and put me in direct contact with mason who did the conversion work and responded to any emails with in an hour or so. Honestly, once i was in direct contact with him it was pretty apparent the guy enjoys what he does and will bend over backwards to knock it out of the park for you.
I also just had a level 6 dimachaeron done by them which I ordered myself this time and sent in. The turn around was around a month which is much faster than I was expecting compared to last time. It came out amazing, up close you can see where the skin is stretched etc, the teal on the base work really looks good too, i'm very happy with it. You can pick up the model and eyeball it as close as you like and see new detail they added in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQZRiA0FCgo
With that said, and shown in the link I will say there is a huge difference between what i received for level 6 work and what you received. I kind of feel as if they went overboard with osl and made almost all over your models a couple color gradient from black to red. It compares to painting the top half of a grey knight blue because he has a power weapon and not picking out any of the colors.
I hope the best for you, there is and obvious difference in what we received and considering how large your project was I feel like they should go the extra mile for you. It looks like it was a very large expense to have it painted.
Hm... Sorry but if that's a level six, supposedly their highest standard, I'm not impressed at all. It looks rather bland and one-dimensional, like most BTP work I've seen. Could be the camera work, poor lightning and constant shifting of angle/focus, but as far as I can see there's no real depth in the model - it looks like it could use some proper shading and several layers of detailed highlighting. The basing is ambitious but there's just something lacking when you look at the whole thing.
Actually this seems to be the general issue with BTP: they just have too much on their plate and so they have to rush unfinished projects out the door. Then they make all these videos showing off mediocre paintjobs and calling them awesome, as if the painting somehow would become great just because Shawn says it is.
Also, it's interesting how he kind of slams the camera in the face of the painter in this video, asking "what's your nickname here at BTP?" and the guy looks uncomfortable and goes "ehrm... I don't think I actually have one yet...?" Some serious cracks in the "friendly bunch of nice guys painting together" image right there.
I will admit I laughed when Shawn said "another high quality, high definition, very polished video". That video was awful, the camera was never stationary long enough for you to focus properly and let you see it.
But the video doesn't really show it to know how good it is.
Hm... Sorry but if that's a level six, supposedly their highest standard, I'm not impressed at all.
It's the highest they offer, they don't claim it's the highest they can do, just the highest they will sell. Even though it's the highest they offer, it's not a patch on several of the commission painters we have here on Dakka, it's still bargain basement stuff. Winterdyne will paint something much more epic for you... but to be fair, winterdyne will probably also charge you significantly more to do it
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's the highest they offer, they don't claim it's the highest they can do, just the highest they will sell. Even though it's the highest they offer, it's not a patch on several of the commission painters we have here on Dakka, it's still bargain basement stuff. Winterdyne will paint something much more epic for you... but to be fair, winterdyne will probably also charge you significantly more to do it
I'm not sure it's such a bargain, they still charge a lot of money for their services. I'm sure better painters charge more but that just goes to show how problematic the whole commision painting business can be - since a lot of time is required for quality work, the painters need to charge huge sums to be able to make a living from it, but at the same time the amounts they charge make their services a kind of luxury business that few can afford.
Personally I don't really understand why some people pay these amounts to get their armies painted. I mean I can understand buying a painted army second hand from another hobbyist becasue you really don't have the time/skill to paint it yourself, but buying new models and then paying almost double the amount to get them all painted "professionally"... To me that's just money wasted.
Maybe it's because I love the painting aspect of the hobby so much that I wouldn't dream of paying someone else to paint my minis. I get that some people don't really enjoy painting and want to play the game with a nice-looking army anyway, but the expenses are just mind-boggling. Apparently there are enough very rich nerds out there to provide a market for all these painting services.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's the highest they offer, they don't claim it's the highest they can do, just the highest they will sell. Even though it's the highest they offer, it's not a patch on several of the commission painters we have here on Dakka, it's still bargain basement stuff. Winterdyne will paint something much more epic for you... but to be fair, winterdyne will probably also charge you significantly more to do it
I'm not sure it's such a bargain, they still charge a lot of money for their services. I'm sure better painters charge more but that just goes to show how problematic the whole commision painting business can be - since a lot of time is required for quality work, the painters need to charge huge sums to be able to make a living from it, but at the same time the amounts they charge make their services a kind of luxury business that few can afford.
It's not cheap, but even to put one of those things together at an average level of quality would take most people 20+ hours. Earlier in this thread Tenebre said one of his big things that was supposed to be level 6 cost $250, it may sound like a lot (and the quality was definitely sub standard on that one) but at a decent hourly rate that's actually a rush job in my mind.
Personally I don't really understand why some people pay these amounts to get their armies painted. I mean I can understand buying a painted army second hand from another hobbyist becasue you really don't have the time/skill to paint it yourself, but buying new models and then paying almost double the amount to get them all painted "professionally"... To me that's just money wasted.
Maybe it's because I love the painting aspect of the hobby so much that I wouldn't dream of paying someone else to paint my minis. I get that some people don't really enjoy painting and want to play the game with a nice-looking army anyway, but the expenses are just mind-boggling. Apparently there are enough very rich nerds out there to provide a market for all these painting services.
Well that's another matter. To someone who doesn't enjoy painting or is short on time you sometimes have to ask yourself "how much in dollars terms is this time costing me?". For an army like Tenebre has, I'd give a rough estimate that it would take me about 500-600 hours to assemble and paint. If I spend 10 hours a weekend working on it that's a year's worth of work, and I don't want to spend 10 hours each and every weekend, maybe 1 weekend every month I might get up the enthusiasm to actually do it.
So in that context, especially considering it's a significant hobby for a lot of people and a lot of people have money but not time, for some people it's not a big deal. I have a hobby car, it's value is more than 4 times what I've spent on the hobby in the past 10 years. I could get a 5000pt army commission painted and it would still not reach the cost of my hobby car. I'm not trying to say the 2 are comparable, my car is worth more than my miniatures, I could turn around tomorrow and sell it for more money than I've put in to it (minus fuel), I can't do that with my minis... but none the less it puts the cost in to perspective a bit.
I actually do enjoy painting as well, but I enjoy painting one offs. The odd Space Marine, the odd Sherman tank, the odd car. As soon as I've painted 3 of the same thing it goes from enjoyment to endurance
It is more economical just to buy 2nd hand models. But that means you have to find a 2nd hand army that matches the vision you have for your army AND is decently painted. There's a plethora of poorly painted 2nd hand armies, not that many well painted ones, and many of the well painted ones cost a fortune as well. I got lucky once that my FLGS had the better part of a 1000pt Night Goblin army going for a couple of hundred bucks and it was actually painted to a standard I am happy to have, I bought it on the spot, but that's so rare (even then, many of the models were missing details that I needed to fix up).
Maybe it's because I love the painting aspect of the hobby so much that I wouldn't dream of paying someone else to paint my minis. I get that some people don't really enjoy painting and want to play the game with a nice-looking army anyway, but the expenses are just mind-boggling. Apparently there are enough very rich nerds out there to provide a market for all these painting services.
I read of a case from one chap who has a medical condition with exceedingly shaky hands. He loves to play, but physically can't paint his models. I've read of another who was colour-blind, and got somebody else to do his models for him so as to deter people from enquiring about whatever psychedelic colour scheme he would have ended up painting. More common still are stories of people with busy jobs and high wage packets that like to play, but have no time to paint. Others still love to paint, but find assembling and greenstuffing an entire DKOK army a bore, and would rather somebody handled that time consuming aspect and then sent it back to them to paint.
There are a sufficient number of people like this in the world as a whole to cater for a good ten or twenty commission painters easily. The best ones, such as GMM, have such a solid reputation that people pre-book up to a year in advance, because they know that they'll be satisfied with the result, as opposed to trusting it to 'some bloke I met down the hobby shop' to get it done.
As for the pricing, frankly, yes, it *is* a luxury business that few can afford. Not because it's expensive (in terms of cost per hour), but simply because (done well) it's very time intensive, which means paying for that time. At the end of the day it's a non-essential service on something that you don't really need to survive.
I actually think it makes more sense to have commission work done on rarer, more expensive models than armies; if you're paying £400 for a titan, why not spend a grand or so more and get it painted and based decently - making it something unique, and an actual piece of art? That adds value (most likely to the right collector more than your investment in getting it done). Getting it painted to a low standard removes value from even the base cost of the model, never mind any investment in the work done to it.
Same's true for character models etc. Most painters use really easily reproducible basing methods, so getting something that suits your army (or basing your army with the pro's technique) are not real concerns.
There are a sufficient number of people like this in the world as a whole to cater for a good ten or twenty commission painters easily. The best ones, such as GMM, have such a solid reputation that people pre-book up to a year in advance, because they know that they'll be satisfied with the result, as opposed to trusting it to 'some bloke I met down the hobby shop' to get it done.
I'm a painter, and enjoy painting my models for the most part. I've got very few that were not painted by myself - just a couple from friends and some rackham prepaints that I'll go over one day when I've got nothing else ot paint (read: never). But I've found that I hate assembling and painting (to a lesser extent) vehicles. Well, GW ones anyway. I've got a fair bit of larger-scale FW stuff, including some titans accumulated over the years. I'd rather pay someone to part-assemble them for me, bring them back for painting interior details, etc, then give them back for the next stage, etcetera. I'm just not excited about assembling huge resin models and would rather have someone who enjoys that sort of thing and is skilled at it do my models. So at the moment 90% of my vehicles sit unassembled and unpainted. Ranging from Rogue Trader-era kits (original tan-plastic Rhinos) to 1990s Armourcast Titans through to reasonably-recent FWHH vehicles. Would I pay someone to assemble and basecoat those for a reasonable price (letting me have the fun of detailing and finishing?) damn straight I would.
Personally I don't really understand why some people pay these amounts to get their armies painted. I mean I can understand buying a painted army second hand from another hobbyist becasue you really don't have the time/skill to paint it yourself, but buying new models and then paying almost double the amount to get them all painted "professionally"... To me that's just money wasted.
Maybe it's because I love the painting aspect of the hobby so much that I wouldn't dream of paying someone else to paint my minis. I get that some people don't really enjoy painting and want to play the game with a nice-looking army anyway, but the expenses are just mind-boggling. Apparently there are enough very rich nerds out there to provide a market for all these painting services.
I used to think that way until life intervened. Things got busier, and I don't have quite the time I once did and further I have multiple gaming projects going at once. I still do most of my own painting, but I now have a good number of units that I've had friends do for me, either in exchange for miniatures or for me making them some terrain or vehicles (which I especially enjoy and can do quickly).
Rather than veiled insults of "rich nerds" I actually applaud those who realize they don't have the time or inclination to paint a given force, yet are willing to put down the cash to get the minis painted. It may be a shortcut, but it gives a better experience on the table to your opponent who gets a nice painted army to play against rather than a grey horde. I'd much rather play against a commision-painted army than a grey horde.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's the highest they offer, they don't claim it's the highest they can do, just the highest they will sell. Even though it's the highest they offer, it's not a patch on several of the commission painters we have here on Dakka, it's still bargain basement stuff. Winterdyne will paint something much more epic for you... but to be fair, winterdyne will probably also charge you significantly more to do it
I'm not sure it's such a bargain, they still charge a lot of money for their services. I'm sure better painters charge more but that just goes to show how problematic the whole commision painting business can be - since a lot of time is required for quality work, the painters need to charge huge sums to be able to make a living from it, but at the same time the amounts they charge make their services a kind of luxury business that few can afford.
Personally I don't really understand why some people pay these amounts to get their armies painted. I mean I can understand buying a painted army second hand from another hobbyist becasue you really don't have the time/skill to paint it yourself, but buying new models and then paying almost double the amount to get them all painted "professionally"... To me that's just money wasted.
Maybe it's because I love the painting aspect of the hobby so much that I wouldn't dream of paying someone else to paint my minis. I get that some people don't really enjoy painting and want to play the game with a nice-looking army anyway, but the expenses are just mind-boggling. Apparently there are enough very rich nerds out there to provide a market for all these painting services.
Hey, I have nerve damage in my arm and I can't hold a paintbrush still. I need to pay services to have painted armies, but thanks for the insult. Jackass.
i wish this was a business full of "rich nerds" who paid me to indulge my artistic pretentions, while living on my yacht, and sipping Mimosas from a Brazilian girl's navel...
instead, it is a hard slog, where i as a high-end painter, even charging a very high price, earn less than minimum wage to provide one-off pieces of art to very passionate hobbyists, who happen to recognize that i have put thousands of hours of practice into sharpening my skills...
most everybody wants the "bro-deal" price, the timeframe is never quick enough to keep the customer happy, and most commission requests evaporate like so much smoke once the price qoute drops...
this is one tough racket...
good customers are as hard to find as good painters...
curran12 wrote: Hey, I have nerve damage in my arm and I can't hold a paintbrush still. I need to pay services to have painted armies, but thanks for the insult. Jackass.
Hey, thanks for yours.
Nowadays "nerd" is hardly an insult, at least not in the way "jackass" is, so chill, please. I meant no disrespect to anyone, I just reflected on the fact that some people are willing to pay a lot of money to have painted armies, making commission painting sort of a luxury service -but at the same time, the painters seem to struggle to even get minimum wage since the work is so time consuming. This weird situation has led to the kind of shenanigans that BTP is pulling with the OP, i.e. a rushed job with an insane price tag.
Of course I understand why disabled people would hire painting services. What I'm having a hard time grasping is how someone who loves miniatures and has the ability to paint them himself would pay somebody else thousands of dollars to do what is an essential part of this hobby, instead of doing it themselves. But to each his own of course.
Because people find value and worth in different things to you, that's why. Being physically capable of doing something doesn't necessarily follow that one wants to spend the time or effort doing so.
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curran12 wrote: Hey, I have nerve damage in my arm and I can't hold a paintbrush still. I need to pay services to have painted armies, but thanks for the insult. Jackass.
Hey, thanks for yours.
Nowadays "nerd" is hardly an insult, at least not in the way "jackass" is, so chill, please. I meant no disrespect to anyone, I just reflected on the fact that some people are willing to pay a lot of money to have painted armies, making commission painting sort of a luxury service -but at the same time, the painters seem to struggle to even get minimum wage since the work is so time consuming. This weird situation has led to the kind of shenanigans that BTP is pulling with the OP, i.e. a rushed job with an insane price tag.
Of course I understand why disabled people would hire painting services. What I'm having a hard time grasping is how someone who loves miniatures and has the ability to paint them himself would pay somebody else thousands of dollars to do what is an essential part of this hobby, instead of doing it themselves. But to each his own of course.
Time.
As you get older and (potentially) graduate from entry-level jobs to higher-paying ones, you often become more become what's called "time-poor" even though your financial situation improves. Getting married, having a family, etc are also huge factors and take a massive chunk out of one's "free" time. The other thing is that "the hobby" is made up of three main streams, as I see it: Modelling, Painting, Playing. As others have stated more than a few times now in various threads - it's actually ok to only like one part of it. Or two. There's no rulebook that says you have to love all three or get excommunicated from the church of nerds.
Azazelx wrote: The other thing is that "the hobby" is made up of three main streams, as I see it: Modelling, Painting, Playing. As others have stated more than a few times now in various threads - it's actually ok to only like one part of it. Or two. There's no rulebook that says you have to love all three or get excommunicated from the church of nerds.
jah-joshua wrote: i wish this was a business full of "rich nerds" who paid me to indulge my artistic pretentions, while living on my yacht, and sipping Mimosas from a Brazilian girl's navel...
Well they are rich nerds, just not paying enough to make rich commission painters
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Acephale wrote: What I'm having a hard time grasping is how someone who loves miniatures and has the ability to paint them himself would pay somebody else thousands of dollars to do what is an essential part of this hobby, instead of doing it themselves. But to each his own of course.
I'm not sure why it's difficult to grasp. If I wanted to turn around and start playing 5000pt fantasy games, you're looking at, what, 200-300 models. It takes me 2-3 hours to paint a model well (including assembly, cleaning, priming). That's 400-900 hours. I would realistically struggle to dedicate more than 5-10 hours a week to it (some weeks I'd put in 20 hours, other weeks I would do nothing).
So you're looking at 1 to 2 years work While I enjoy painting, I know by around the 50th model I'll be wondering "why in the hell am I doing this to myself?" and my motivation/interest/joy will be gone.
OR, I could pay a commission painter, if they had no other projects and were working on it full time could paint it in 2-3 months (even if they have a waiting period of several months it's still faster than I could do it).
It's one thing to enjoy painting a model or two here and there it's entirely another thing to turn around and try and paint a huge army to a decent quality. It's why most my "armies" are speed painted and don't look great, my well painted models are mostly 1 off's that aren't related to my armies, I just painted them for fun.
I thoroughly enjoy modelling and painting. It's my main 'thing' to do in this hobby.
That said, once I finish the 1-200 models I have to do up, you can bet that if I were to decide to do another horde army, I would be considering a 'bargain speed painting' service. Life gets busy fast.
jah-joshua wrote: i wish this was a business full of "rich nerds" who paid me to indulge my artistic pretentions, while living on my yacht, and sipping Mimosas from a Brazilian girl's navel...
Well they are rich nerds, just not paying enough to make rich commission painters
too bad for them that the quality will suck.
for 17 per infantry, should they look better? probably a bit. Should they be display worthy or even worth taking individual pictures of each model? probably not.
the badly done level 6s is pretty much just a slap in the face though.
for 17 per infantry, should they look better? probably a bit. Should they be display worthy or even worth taking individual pictures of each model? probably not.
They should be painted to whatever standard was used and agreed on as an example for the quote of $17 a pop. Regardless, they should have their belts painted at the very least. Not left undercoat black.
As you get older and (potentially) graduate from entry-level jobs to higher-paying ones, you often become more become what's called "time-poor" even though your financial situation improves. Getting married, having a family, etc are also huge factors and take a massive chunk out of one's "free" time. The other thing is that "the hobby" is made up of three main streams, as I see it: Modelling, Painting, Playing. As others have stated more than a few times now in various threads - it's actually ok to only like one part of it. Or two. There's no rulebook that says you have to love all three or get excommunicated from the church of nerds.
Of course it's ok. Also, people can do whatever they want with their money.
But perhaps it's not that surprising that some of us - people who actually do enjoy painting and modelling and also don't have the type of income where we could spend $8k on a paintjob even it we wanted to - are a bit baffled by the sums spent on painting services.
Personally I'm not really "time-rich" (I work and I have a family) but I paint a lot in my spare time anyway. To me, a lot of the charm of this hobby lies in actually building an army, and a part of the satisfaction I get when I look at my armies comes from the fact that I've painted them myself, which required a long, slow and concentrated effort, a lot of mistakes, a lot of learning and a lot of fun. I would hardly get that kick looking at pre-painted models or models that someone else painted for me. Also, if I spent $8k on having a toy soldier army painted, my wife would probably castrate me.
I'm far too poor to pay someone to paint my stuff, but for those of you who get all hurt over someone who spends their money on a commission for WHATEVER reason they may have, I am sure if we evaluated your life, everyone would find things that seem silly to them as well.
I don't hate painting, but I find that I have only so much time and I very much prefer playing. This means fewer painted models on the table. Some people who aren't me may have the resources to pay someone else so that they can, like me, enjoy the game and not worry so much about the hobby while having painted miniatures. I totally get that people take pride in their minis, I do as well. But to get bent out of shape over what another person finds value in is short-sighted and lacks empathy.
But perhaps it's not that surprising that some of us - people who actually do enjoy painting and modelling and also don't have the type of income where we could spend $8k on a paintjob even it we wanted to - are a bit baffled by the sums spent on painting services.
Personally I'm not really "time-rich" (I work and I have a family) but I paint a lot in my spare time anyway. To me, a lot of the charm of this hobby lies in actually building an army, and a part of the satisfaction I get when I look at my armies comes from the fact that I've painted them myself, which required a long, slow and concentrated effort, a lot of mistakes, a lot of learning and a lot of fun. I would hardly get that kick looking at pre-painted models or models that someone else painted for me. Also, if I spent $8k on having a toy soldier army painted, my wife would probably castrate me.
But as I said before, to each his own.
Exactly. I mean, I do paint my own stuff as well. I wish I knew someone local who would take the tedious drudgery of assembly off my hands. As for the amounts, I just think of the amount that I (or many of us) spend on the hobby in general (product, in my case) and think if I flipped it over to paying painters rather than yet another KS or models to join the piles of unpainted stuff I'd certainly be in the shoes of being able to pay a painter.
But perhaps it's not that surprising that some of us - people who actually do enjoy painting and modelling and also don't have the type of income where we could spend $8k on a paintjob even it we wanted to - are a bit baffled by the sums spent on painting services.
Personally I'm not really "time-rich" (I work and I have a family) but I paint a lot in my spare time anyway. To me, a lot of the charm of this hobby lies in actually building an army, and a part of the satisfaction I get when I look at my armies comes from the fact that I've painted them myself, which required a long, slow and concentrated effort, a lot of mistakes, a lot of learning and a lot of fun. I would hardly get that kick looking at pre-painted models or models that someone else painted for me. Also, if I spent $8k on having a toy soldier army painted, my wife would probably castrate me.
But as I said before, to each his own.
Exactly. I mean, I do paint my own stuff as well. I wish I knew someone local who would take the tedious drudgery of assembly off my hands. As for the amounts, I just think of the amount that I (or many of us) spend on the hobby in general (product, in my case) and think if I flipped it over to paying painters rather than yet another KS or models to join the piles of unpainted stuff I'd certainly be in the shoes of being able to pay a painter.
Well you sir are in luck. Meg Maples is moving down there - She was a staff painter for PP, and check out the Marvel stuff she has done..
http://arcanepaintworks.blogspot.com/
Well you sir are in luck. Meg Maples is moving down there - She was a staff painter for PP, and check out the Marvel stuff she has done..
http://arcanepaintworks.blogspot.com/
Have a look at her pricing page before you consider Meg. Though her work is indeed unreal, her prices reflect the work involved (and may be comparable to our fantastic commission painters here on Dakka).
Azazelx wrote: I'm a painter, and enjoy painting my models for the most part. I've got very few that were not painted by myself - just a couple from friends and some rackham prepaints that I'll go over one day when I've got nothing else ot paint (read: never). But I've found that I hate assembling and painting (to a lesser extent) vehicles. (snip) Would I pay someone to assemble and basecoat those for a reasonable price (letting me have the fun of detailing and finishing?) damn straight I would.
What I would give to live near you. I love assembling and building the models, and I hate painting them - what a partnership we could have.
Well you sir are in luck. Meg Maples is moving down there - She was a staff painter for PP, and check out the Marvel stuff she has done..
http://arcanepaintworks.blogspot.com/
Thanks for the links, but you misunderstand slightly. I don't need a 28mm painter. I'm saying I could afford a painter if I needed to. Except I'm quite happy to paint my own stuff. I need someone to assemble tedious vehicle kits. I've heard she's moving to Australia, but by "local" for an assembler, I mean close by, within the same city rather than the same continent. Ideally even, I'd pay for it via some form of quid pro quo with painting.
Azazelx wrote: I'm a painter, and enjoy painting my models for the most part. I've got very few that were not painted by myself - just a couple from friends and some rackham prepaints that I'll go over one day when I've got nothing else ot paint (read: never). But I've found that I hate assembling and painting (to a lesser extent) vehicles. (snip) Would I pay someone to assemble and basecoat those for a reasonable price (letting me have the fun of detailing and finishing?) damn straight I would.
What I would give to live near you. I love assembling and building the models, and I hate painting them - what a partnership we could have.
There we go - this be what I'm talkin' 'bout!
And posts like this are both the blessing and the curse of the internet. It sounds ideal, except for that Pacific Ocean, NSW and no doubt a good chunk of continental USA in the way.
It all depends on what you think the convenience and quality are worth.
I paint my own miniatures.
I occasionally paint for commission (and at one point earned as much doing so as my day job of the time (sadly, more of a comment on how little social work made in the early 1990s than how much I earned painting minis)).
If I had enough money I would still hire Victoria Lamb to paint an army for me! (I just think that she is that good.)
Azazelx wrote: I'm a painter, and enjoy painting my models for the most part. I've got very few that were not painted by myself - just a couple from friends and some rackham prepaints that I'll go over one day when I've got nothing else ot paint (read: never). But I've found that I hate assembling and painting (to a lesser extent) vehicles. (snip) Would I pay someone to assemble and basecoat those for a reasonable price (letting me have the fun of detailing and finishing?) damn straight I would.
What I would give to live near you. I love assembling and building the models, and I hate painting them - what a partnership we could have.
Well I also love painting and hate assembling, so between me and Azazelx, you should move to Melbourne I'm sure you don't want to be in Iowa as winter rolls around anyway
Of course it's ok. Also, people can do whatever they want with their money.
But perhaps it's not that surprising that some of us - people who actually do enjoy painting and modelling and also don't have the type of income where we could spend $8k on a paintjob even it we wanted to - are a bit baffled by the sums spent on painting services.
Personally I'm not really "time-rich" (I work and I have a family) but I paint a lot in my spare time anyway. To me, a lot of the charm of this hobby lies in actually building an army, and a part of the satisfaction I get when I look at my armies comes from the fact that I've painted them myself, which required a long, slow and concentrated effort, a lot of mistakes, a lot of learning and a lot of fun. I would hardly get that kick looking at pre-painted models or models that someone else painted for me. Also, if I spent $8k on having a toy soldier army painted, my wife would probably castrate me.
But as I said before, to each his own.
There are people who love gardening, and spend hours and hours in the yard weeding, trimming, planting, and pruning in order to create a garden that they are well and truly proud of.
Other people also want to see their vision for a garden realized, but don't want to spend all of their (limited) free time up to their elbows in dirt. So they hire gardeners and give them careful instructions, so that the garden matches their vision.
And yet more people just want to enjoy a pretty garden around their home, and recognize that people other than themselves are more skilled at doing that. So they hire gardeners and landscapers to craft a vision which they lack the artistic eye to create themselves.
The fact of the matter is that not everyone likes painting, or hobbying, or either. Some people love painting and hobbying but not as much as playing, and don't have time for all three. For those people there are commission painters, who honestly speaking don't make nearly as much as their skill and effort deserves. $8,000 might SEEM like a lot of money, but that's only 400 hours at $20 an hour. How long do you think it would take you to paint 9,000 points of Chaos Dwarves to the standard the OP is looking for? I'd probably take close to that just to paint up 3,000 points.
The counter point to the cost factor is, as with any contract labor, a price is quoted for the requested project.
Had they quoted more or less my decision might have been different. I actually passed on another painter because their priced seemed too low. The quoted me a price for the quality i requested and that was not delivered after repeated attempts to have this resolved.
This is the sole reason i am upset. I even said when they were behind, that i am more concerned with quality then speed all I want is some WiP pictures. But as I stated these never appeared and if you time their videos the entire army appears to have been "painted" in 3-4 days.
I searched for reviews even with a friend and they are oddly hard to come by. I would urge anyone to post a review positive or negative of commission service. And trust me when i say i REALLY wish this would have been a positive review.
How can someone trust the quality of any work on BT site when it is very possible that the artist who did that work is no longer with the company?
There is no way of getting good commission from them without knowing what artist is working on the project.
This is even worse when several "artist" are working on a project, the project is dictated by speed and quality of the slowest and least talented artist.
This is proven in the videos where there is no consistency and BT was waiting for one of more painter to complete the project.
I could only suggest them if you are looking for something very basic.
Karnophage wrote: How can someone trust the quality of any work on BT site when it is very possible that the artist who did that work is no longer with the company?
There is no way of getting good commission from them without knowing what artist is working on the project.
This is even worse when several "artist" are working on a project, the project is dictated by speed and quality of the slowest and least talented artist.
This is proven in the videos where there is no consistency and BT was waiting for one of more painter to complete the project.
I could only suggest them if you are looking for something very basic.
It's part of a studio manager's job to ensure consistency of quality, regardless of the individual. Whether this is through objective quality checks or a predetermined painting method and style (eg 'eavy metal) is largely irrelevant, but it should be done.
I've had a few painters work under the winterdyne 'banner' such as it is, and I managed the quality fine. Timing, something else, but the quality is IMO the most important thing.
Man I'd be worried about taking BTP to court. A judge or jury (or whomever the deciding party is based on the type of court involved) would have to be familiar with the ins and outs of painting, assembling, and the hobby in general. Most laymens just don't understand the time, quality, and money involved in this suit. I'm mean if you took some "dude" off the street and showed off the OP's first video, I could see a great many being very impressed simply because they do not know any better.
winterdyne wrote: I've said this before in this thread, but I'll repeat, more clearly:
To rework this army is a massive, massive undertaking.
It is not possible to remove / retouch much of it because of the 'OSL' glow effect. (I use quote marks to imply derision).
It's a full repaint (and most likely rebase) of each and every model that is needed to up the quality in any meaningful way.
I would be dubious about this - cleaning up existing models and/or stripping paintwork if required takes FAR LONGER than assembling fresh models off sprue. This is actually the reason I don't take on 'redo' jobs. My pay per hour is already low enough, without taking on more work for no return.
Edit: Due to the number of OOP and converted models, it is extremely difficult to reproduce the model collection.
An attorney definitely needs to be involved who can successfully relate what Tenebre was expecting versus what he got. Because if you don't know what you're looking for, it's easy to be misled.
MightyGodzilla wrote: Man I'd be worried about taking BTP to court. A judge or jury (or whomever the deciding party is based on the type of court involved) would have to be familiar with the ins and outs of painting, assembling, and the hobby in general. Most laymens just don't understand the time, quality, and money involved in this suit. I'm mean if you took some "dude" off the street and showed off the OP's first video, I could see a great many being very impressed simply because they do not know any better.
Most lawyers can do an adequate job of explaining the difference in quality. We've all heard how BTP explains their method and level system and the models demonstrably have not met those qualities of service.
I really hope it doesn't come to that tho. A good lawyer could explain the situation to a judge, a great lawyer is someone who gets the issue sorted with a single letter.
RoninXiC wrote: Looks better, but you can cleary seen the beards and details in the beard unpainted. Just black and airbrush on top.
Those armies look GREAT from a distance, but the individual miniature is ... well.. okayish
I agree but the glow is saving it there, it must be florescent paint or something, looks pretty nice. They probably need to skip things or the painting would take stupidly long.
RoninXiC wrote: Looks better, but you can cleary seen the beards and details in the beard unpainted. Just black and airbrush on top.
Those armies look GREAT from a distance, but the individual miniature is ... well.. okayish
I agree but the glow is saving it there, it must be florescent paint or something, looks pretty nice. They probably need to skip things or the painting would take stupidly long.
It only took 2 years. Send your army over there tenebre
But it won't help BTP if this goes to court - since Tenebre didn't ask for glow.
The thing is... that glow is actually pretty easy to do - and it does look nice, when done right - but the thing is that doing the glow effect is fast.
They whipped this thing out quickly, rather than trying to fulfill the commission that they were hired to do.
If I were in Tenebre's shoes... I would already have begun legal proceedings, I'm afraid. What BTP promised, and what they delivered, were two very different things. :(
RoninXiC wrote: Looks better, but you can cleary seen the beards and details in the beard unpainted. Just black and airbrush on top.
Those armies look GREAT from a distance, but the individual miniature is ... well.. okayish
I agree but the glow is saving it there, it must be florescent paint or something, looks pretty nice. They probably need to skip things or the painting would take stupidly long.
It only took 2 years. Send your army over there tenebre
You joke. But I have clients who've waited years for their product. The lizardman diorama (or rather the stegadon on it) I did actually was entered in two separate golden demon contests (2011 and 2013) before shipment. Finalist twice, lol.
It certainly is. I have had commissions run over a year, and it wasn't an issue for me as long as the artist kept up communication. The worst delay ran almost two years, but the end result were gorgeous miniatures that are centerpieces in my collection. As long as the artist keeps the client in the loop, there usually isn't an issue. BTP certainly failed in that regard for tenebre's commission, along with failing in numerous other ways as well.
Sad to see this, I used to always watch BTP's youtube updates and had thought about having them paint a large conversion model I've made for a lord of change.
Not now though.
I'm not that fantastic a painter, but I think I could pull off what they did to tenebre's army. At that amount of money the lack of work is bad. The worst part is BTP's response. That is just poor customer service.
I had honestly thought that with them, after hashing out the money details you were assigned a painter and stayed in touch with your painter.
I worked at a commercial print shop as a graphic designer and this is how it was. The owner would do all the money talk and work would get assigned to one of us designers. From that point on the customer would have direct contact with the designer handling their job. We would provide sample pictures and discuss any needed changes directly with them. The customers felt like they had a premiere level of service and on our side it avoided A LOT of confusion and if there was a screw up, there was no question who was responsible.
I don't know why BTP wouldn't do something like this?
Yep, Blue Table does seem to have a seriously high turnover rate of painters, if you dropped cash on getting an army done by them and wanted a few additional units in the same scheme, you contact the original painter who's left Blue Table, rather than the company, cutting out Shawn as middle man and likely costing you less.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In the end I think you should prob sue them. I just watched both the videos, kudos to you for not taking down the videos. I think what BTP does is despicable and I hope as many as possible see the videos which would in the end result in them going out of business.
This is really a shame, I love and still enjoy btp's channel, but commissioning them for painting seems to be too hit or miss for me to ever consider it. I could only ever see myself having them do some conversion work, they seem to do really well at that. Their assembly line method of painting with multiple painters is just too flawed to ever b used on a large project. Hope things get resolved peacefully between tenebre and btp, best of luck.
I saw these things up close and with my own eyes. The video does not do it justice. They didnt even get the OSL right, with the blunderbusses painted just red. Tinny details that take these models one step beyond then GW(as is the case w/ GW) are forgotton(Like the Eye Stitching)
The thing is, It looks like there was a foundation for a better paintjob, but something happened, like the painter left.
I hope these can be fixed.
Yeesh. Lawyer time, if you can be bothered. I think now they're hoping on you disappearing and the bad press going away, or not spreading too much from Dakka elsewhere.
tenebre wrote: update: BT retracted the only offers i would agree to after i agreed to them.
No contact since. they simply do not care.
Good grief. That's abysmal.
This is the largest wargaming forum on the net by a sizable amount in what is a niche hobby, this action and the bad press of people reading your experience here and spreading it from here by word of mouth to clubs, other forums and flgs, is costing the company thousands in lost future custom and bad press. The damage limitation should have been immediate and conclusive and instead we've seen yet more false promise and smoke and mirrors from this outfit.
I can't express how disappointed I am having been a follower of their videos for years, to see evasive and shifty behavior from Blue Table, and this isn't the first time we've seen it either, I fully remember the Eldar titan/tau terrain swap that bit Shawn and co on the arse.
melkorthetonedeaf wrote: You would think that Tenebre would be exactly the type of client they would want to woo. Sad sad sad.
Again they saw the money come in, spent it all on w/e else, and basically ran away with it without disappearing and delivering a sub par return for what was supposed to be higher end. I believe this is happening more often then not, and people just don't speak up. Tenebre did. BTP asking for everything to be taken down shows BTP trying to strong arm him to deny the reputation hit.
To be very honest. Small Claims court there is no guarantee of getting any return at all and a good percentage of the time you end up paying more then what you are looking to get back. At this point, I'd be happy with having my models back(which Tenebre does), and be happy with getting this out in the open(which he has). Bring it up until they do have to act(IE, what happened on Warseer- having it disappear). If you receive Threats because people can't see past the BS that you've gone through, it helps you more and more. This isn't something to be swept under the rug on their side. We know you said you wish to be quiet until it is resolved but more its out there the more you have to get it resolved on your terms.
Yeah I'm surprised they don't want to fix it given the bad press they continue to receive, your first vid has over 10k views and both your vids are on the first page when you type "blue table painting" in to youtube.
I figured they'd settle for you leaving the videos up but resolving the problem as long as you agree to provide a stonking big link in your videos to another video describing how they fixed it.
To be very honest. Small Claims court there is no guarantee of getting any return at all and a good percentage of the time you end up paying more then what you are looking to get back. At this point, I'd be happy with having my models back(which Tenebre does), and be happy with getting this out in the open(which he has). Bring it up until they do have to act(IE, what happened on Warseer- having it disappear). If you receive Threats because people can't see past the BS that you've gone through, it helps you more and more. This isn't something to be swept under the rug on their side. We know you said you wish to be quiet until it is resolved but more its out there the more you have to get it resolved on your terms.
The scary thing is, while I do agree with this sentiment, it is EXACTLY what BTP wants. They want him to say this is too much work so that he will leave them alone.
I'd pay into a crowd funding page, should you struggle with legal bills etc. A few quid to stop people like this getting away with murder would be well spent.
That assumes an awareness on the part of BTP, Medium, and that is an awareness that I doubt they have. Just think of how far it had to go before they treated tenebre seriously, and even when they did, it was not "we have to fix our mistakes", it was pure PR damage control and unrealistic "solutions".
curran12 wrote: That assumes an awareness on the part of BTP, Medium, and that is an awareness that I doubt they have. Just think of how far it had to go before they treated tenebre seriously, and even when they did, it was not "we have to fix our mistakes", it was pure PR damage control and unrealistic "solutions".
It was also a considerable amount of victim blaming in the form of resentment that tenebre had taken the issue to the 'court of public opinion' via online videos and posts, despite the long grace period he gave them before doing so and despite the fact that Shawn and co have used those self same methods of communication to advertise and promote for many years.
Shawn wasn't upset about the issue, he was upset about the issue being made public. Reading into it, he doesn't seem to think there is an issue or that what left their studio was anything other than 'level 6' or whatever they call it.
curran12 wrote: That assumes an awareness on the part of BTP, Medium, and that is an awareness that I doubt they have. Just think of how far it had to go before they treated tenebre seriously, and even when they did, it was not "we have to fix our mistakes", it was pure PR damage control and unrealistic "solutions".
It was also a considerable amount of victim blaming in the form of resentment that tenebre had taken the issue to the 'court of public opinion' via online videos and posts, despite the long grace period he gave them before doing so and despite the fact that Shawn and co have used those self same methods of communication to advertise and promote for many years.
Shawn wasn't upset about the issue, he was upset about the issue being made public. Reading into it, he doesn't seem to think there is an issue or that what left their studio was anything other than 'level 6' or whatever they call it.
In BTP's defense, I'd say those models are all an easy level 6! Assuming of course we're grading from 1-20 with 1 being bare plastic, 10 being high end tabletop, and 20 being competition quality.
Oh god, you got borked man... thanks for the warning. BTP always seemed sketchy. The army is okay for a level 1-2 MAX. Not what you payed for, I hope all goes well. You handled this with maturity and bearing judging from your videos.
curran12 wrote: That assumes an awareness on the part of BTP, Medium, and that is an awareness that I doubt they have. Just think of how far it had to go before they treated tenebre seriously, and even when they did, it was not "we have to fix our mistakes", it was pure PR damage control and unrealistic "solutions".
Given how much time Shawn spent on YouTube trying to defend BTP it wouldn't surprise me if they do keep an eye on the forums, though maybe they just haven't noticed this thread yet.
Looks like they are disabling likes and comments on videos I've watched lately too.
I hope that this finally gets resolved to your satisfaction. The sad thing is, you can look at most studio updates and the crew there are always furiously drybrushing. Then look at a studio update from Den of Imagination where their staff are actually painting. Tremendous difference.
UPDATE:
Yesterday BTP responded to the BBB complaint stating they did everything as requested and that I am making a false complaint. Their sole offer stands to allow me to return all of my models (that i bought separately before i even knew BTP) and allow them to repaint them again.
The response to the BBB was more thorough and detail oriented than any response or communication I have seen from BTP. They also neglected to tell the BBB how they retracted every offer I accepted.
no? Why would i send them nearly $3000 worth of my models and trust them to paint them correctly a fourth time? That would make me both an idiot and insane.
no? Why would i send them nearly $3000 worth of my models and trust them to paint them correctly a fourth time? That would make me both an idiot and insane.
no? Why would i send them nearly $3000 worth of my models and trust them to paint them correctly a fourth time? That would make me both an idiot and insane.
Hell I'm in 100% agreement
I just know that it must be tiring to keep this up dude, that's all. I repeat what I said about a crowdfunding thing and legal costs though, if you need a helping hand..
FInally saw the first video and man that is some terrible painting. I honestly could of done as well when I first started the hobby and I wasn't a very good painter.
How does the BBB process work? I would think you have a great case since a third of every model is just pink and you didn't specify that in your communication with them
I think I've found the problem. I was watching a video yesterday (the red space wolves one?) and Shaun commented on the four step quality control process that the commisions go through with the fourth step being sending the pics to the customer. I suspect they just skipped steps 1-3 with your army! :( They do feel like they're fully in damage control mode as much as they can be without actually mentioning your commision.
A shame you guys don't really have decent consumer protection there. Mention of the ACCC over here usually causes companies to gak their pants. (And even then the ACCC isn't as able as we'd like it to be).
Gorlack wrote: How does the BBB process work? I would think you have a great case since a third of every model is just pink and you didn't specify that in your communication with them
Well, in theory, the BBB is a way for people to check up on the reputation of a company. A person can file a complaint with the BBB against a company, and said company is notified of the complaint (assuming the company is a member of the BBB). The company then has a chance to respond. This can lead to a back-and-forth between the company and the customer, and eventually, the BBB will list whether or not the complaint has been satisfactorily resolved.
That's pretty much all it is. The BBB cannot compel a company to do anything. The only thing the BBB does is provide a somewhat public forum where customers can complain to try to get an issue resolved.
To Tenebre (sp?), I'd suggest retaining an attorney for the amount of money involved, even for a small claims action. Since you'll almost certainly have to file the complaint in the jurisdiction where BTP is located, that would almost certainly be cheaper and easier than trying to handle all the proceedings from out of state. If you can find an attorney in that locality, he could get the ball rolling.
For starters, you could spend as little as $50-$100 to have an attorney send an official demand and intent to sue letter to BTP by certified mail. The letter would outline the grievance, state the demanded redress, and give a date upon which you intend to file suit with the local courts if the demand isn't met.
Having worked in banking/finance/lending for 16 years now, you'd be surprised how effective such an official notice can be in getting a potential defendant to get serious about addressing the issue.
Being a past btp customer this thread does give me an uneasy feeling. It makes me look at what I've had them do and wonder if I could have gotten a better product for what I spent. It's not a good feeling to have and I think I wouldn't have it if i had seen Shawn use this as a chance to really prove they will go all out to satisfy the customer.
All its proven is that they will go out of their way to steal from you if they think they can get away with it. The owner isn't a painter, or a hobbyist, or even a WH40K fan. He's just a thief. And not even a petty thief, this is practically grand larceny.
And if you google "Shawn Blue Table Painting" something like this happens every few months. He should probably be in jail.
What kind of doublethink and cognitive dissonance allows this guy to sleep at night?
Their whole setup is sketchy, like them trying to sell the Valhalla lodge a few years ago and then suddenly "No we're not selling it, yes we are, no we're not." Over the course of a few videos. The price of that cabin was outrageous might I add. I don't know how this company even affords its costs. I'm also disappointed Miniwargaming supported them through affiliation for a time.
robam45 wrote: All its proven is that they will go out of their way to steal from you if they think they can get away with it. The owner isn't a painter, or a hobbyist, or even a WH40K fan. He's just a thief. And not even a petty thief, this is practically grand larceny.
And if you google "Shawn Blue Table Painting" something like this happens every few months. He should probably be in jail.
What kind of doublethink and cognitive dissonance allows this guy to sleep at night?
QFT and exalted. Tenebre, it was a brave thing to take this to the public, you've opened many people's eyes. You've ensured I won't do business with them, and at one point in time I had considered it.
Just got this message from Miniwargaming. Food for thought about how BTP manages to keep up it's image.
While I respect everyone's right to endorse whatever company they want, I really think they are off-base doing a review like this when members of the wargaming community are getting ripped off. It's not right.
Hey Vault Member!
I'm going to be making a video endorsing BlueTablePainting in the next couple of weeks, as they have done some fantastic work for us (and many, many others).
I'd love to include some testimonials and case studies from MiniWarGaming Vault members who have used BTP in the past.
If you have used BTP, and have had a good experience with them, please email your experience to matthew@miniwargaming.com.
I realize that some people may have had bad experiences (they do a LOT of jobs every month, so obviously there will be customers who wouldn't be happy with their work), but we're only really interested in the positive experiences for this video.
Please understand that we will only be endorsing them because we fully believe that they are a good company worth giving your business to (if you use painting commission studios).
Still, there are loads of people out there unaware of BTP practices. Putting a video out there praising them at this stage is a bad, bad move.
One could almost think there is some money involved...
Feel pretty bad for the OP getting ripped off like that. Happy to see you are fighting back though
Even though I paint myself, I will be getting some commisioned painting done at some point because I have always wanted a truely amazing army for display.
It just won't be Blue Table Painting that gets my business.
I couldn't resist to send a "warning" to MWG, linking to this very thread.
I got a very speedy reply, thanking me for the head's up from Mat (camped the Emails )...
So they are at least aware of the issues here. If they follow up on this or adress it remains to be seen.
Kinda feel nervous about having a 650$ commission pending with the last guys they recommended now...
tenebre wrote: hmm so these testimonials are supposed to negate their bad work ? as well as negate their reaction to said work?
Even i never said they "cant" do good work. I have seen past stuff that is good. My experience however was far different.
And their reaction only made it worse.
I feel for you. It's a shame we can't setup a gofund me or something so you can get your army repainted by a better studio or something. There has to be a silver lining in this issue but, you'd be mad (as you stated yourself,) to give them your models for another go. On your second video I watched, them trying to coerce you into returning your models that YOU, not THEM paid for, reeks of attempting theft. Just my thoughts, I am not calling them thieves but, it's sketchy. Especially where they came across as threatening for you going public with a very fair review. You have handled this like a saint.
Seems like a good idea but, how can the community help Ten with his botched OOP and FW models? I own only a few FW models and I use FW bits in all my builds heavily. I cannot imagine owning a full FW model and having it ruined with a paint job gone wrong.
(It's the reason why I've not painted my models yet...)
Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Missing the point as usual.
Their response, in rejecting all wrong going and blaming the victim in the process, was what "snowballed" it.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Shawn...? Is that you?
(Edit: I'm just joking around btw. Don't sue me.)
yeah god forbid some one takes a deep breath and a step back before assessing this particular customers poor experience. the sky is falling btp is coming to steal your grandmas pension and so on and so forth.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Missing the point as usual.
Their response, in rejecting all wrong going and blaming the victim in the process, was what "snowballed" it.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Shawn...? Is that you?
(Edit: I'm just joking around btw. Don't sue me.)
yeah god forbid some one takes a deep breath and a step back before assessing this particular customers poor experience. the sky is falling btp is coming to steal your grandmas pension and so on and so forth.
Why would they take her pension? SHE IS A NICE LADY
I'm very " (o.O) ? WTF? " about how this is being handled by BTP.
Seriously, the best thing to have done, as trust has been lost by the client, is refund down to the appropriate level (looks like 2 on their own scale to me) and write it off as a bad job. I believe that's basically what Tenebre asked for (and BTP rejected).
I'm quite happy to say I don't think BTP are capable of high end tabletop work any more. I base this on the work they did for display, for a product release, for GenCon. Robotech Tactics, I'm a' lookin' at you.
Absolutely fething godawful for a product release.
Compare with any of the high end tabletop stuff I did for Mantic; or indeed that Dave does for them now in house.
Not competition stuff, it's just 'nice work'. BTP do gak by comparison, but still a) tout that they can do the (better) standard of work and b) charge for that better standard.
Caveat fething Emptor.
Edit: This does not mean I think the lower end service is not worthwhile, a viable market, or that their operation as a whole is shaky, beyond them promising what they apparently can't do.
They go to those events btp organizes, so im fairly certain they involved in some cross publicity thing. Thou i highly doubt there is anything written and financial between them.
winterdyne wrote: Seriously, the best thing to have done, as trust has been lost by the client, is refund down to the appropriate level (looks like 2 on their own scale to me) and write it off as a bad job. I believe that's basically what Tenebre asked for (and BTP rejected).
Agreed. That was best case scenario here for BTP and allowed for BTP to retain some credibility. To me that's very generous of tenebre to offer because the quality is simply not what he paid for and the paintjob itself wasn't even what he asked for--all the OSL, etc. Things like not painting the underside of some of the vehicles is just confusing. I'm a terrible painter, don't get me wrong, but even I would do a little bit of dry brushing underneath the vehicles to bring out some of the detail.
winterdyne wrote: Seriously, the best thing to have done, as trust has been lost by the client, is refund down to the appropriate level (looks like 2 on their own scale to me) and write it off as a bad job. I believe that's basically what Tenebre asked for (and BTP rejected).
Agreed. That was best case scenario here for BTP and allowed for BTP to retain some credibility. To me that's very generous of tenebre to offer because the quality is simply not what he paid for and the paintjob itself wasn't even what he asked for--all the OSL, etc. Things like not painting the underside of some of the vehicles is just confusing. I'm a terrible painter, don't get me wrong, but even I would do a little bit of dry brushing underneath the vehicles to bring out some of the detail.
Forget dry brushing, it takes like 10 seconds flat to do with an airbrush.
Does it look to others like BTP is relying heavily on airbrushing to get their projects done? Not that airbrushing is a bad method, just that there are alot of things that airbrushing can't do. I just looked at a couple of their armies and it looks like some of them were majority airbrushed.
I'm not an expert, but most of what the OP has looks like airbrushing with very little use of the more advanced manual brushwork that would be required to get the level of quality he paid for.
Well it's quite simple. A company like BTP relies on customer relations. If the word spreads about not only the low quality of their work but also how poorly they treat their customers, the company will go under. And good riddance.
Airbrushing's great, but not for doing detail, certainly not at speed. I'm not particularly interested in getting into a technical deconstruction of the work done, it boils down to a simple endpoint:
It needs redoing, from scratch, as attempting to work with what's already done is not economically viable.
xxvaderxx, honestly, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk. We'll get on better that way and it won't pollute the thread with misinformation.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Not even close pal.
Your attempted hyperbole aside, what has placed Blue Table Painting in such a negative light is their reaction to the issue, this isn't about a badly painted army, it's about a badly painted army, ridiculous waiting times (Especially given the lazy paint job), expense, frustration and the total inability to offer a satisfactory remedy to it.
No one has accused them of being the antichrist, in fact we only got to that labeling via you... Plenty have come forward to support the statements made by the OP with their own experiences, which, given the size of the internet, likelihood of someone to post and so on, renders your attempt to quantify with a statistic percentage, totally worthless.
As to the other labels we're seeing here, crooked, theft etc, all are within the scope of accurate assessment for what's gone on here. I doubt there can be many hobbyists with any experience of painting for themselves or using painting services who would look at what the OP received as 'value for money' or 'worth what he paid'. Painting standards are, of course, an abstraction, but the collective conscience of the gaming community would most certainly not view that painted product as anywhere near the amount of money he shelled out for it.
He paid for services, the services he received fell way below 'realistic expectation' (both the expectation of the customer himself and of his peers here in the community) and so it can be viewed as theft by deception or theft by failure to fulfill contract.
We aren't calling anyone at Blue Table the antichrist, we are calling them a cowboy outfit.
Again, I remember very well what happened with Natakue's eldar titan and the trade for tau terrain.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Again, I remember very well what happened with Natakue's eldar titan and the trade for tau terrain.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Again, I remember very well what happened with Natakue's eldar titan and the trade for tau terrain.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Again, I remember very well what happened with Natakue's eldar titan and the trade for tau terrain.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Again, I remember very well what happened with Natakue's eldar titan and the trade for tau terrain.
Please don't say pics or it didn't happen. One, it makes you sound very childish; two, it makes you seem foolish as all you had to do was to google the information; three, it detracts from what the thread is really about.
Now back on topic - Tenebre I have been following your thread for a bit now but have not commented on it for sake of not wanting to get involved - but seeing all the victim blaming is getting me a bit riled up so I hope you rise above it and go for the throat. You paid these guys expecting an outcome, and that outcome was not met in the slightest - if I was BTP I would have quickly damage controlled this whole situation by offering you a refund on what level it looks like (and by looking at the video closely, it looks like a level 2 at best). That would have allowed you to seek other painters to clean up the mess that my company made. However, by offering to do services, then back pedaling, then threatening saying that you have taken this to the court of public opinion is tantamount to image suicide. Now DakkaDakka sadly is not ALL of the miniature enthusiast out there - but the bright side to this is that you have now shown us what happens when they make a mistake. So, I thank you sir for bringing this to light instead of letting BTP bury this for it gives us a better image of who these people are.
xxvaderxx wrote: Regarless of the op being right in this particular instance, I like how this got blown way out of proportion, the 30 or so dissapointed customers posting here just to call it a big number, it has not been nowehere near close to 30, is like what 3to5% or less of the projects they do in 1 year? that snowballed into them being the antichrist.
Again, I remember very well what happened with Natakue's eldar titan and the trade for tau terrain.
Please don't say pics or it didn't happen. One, it makes you sound very childish; two, it makes you seem foolish as all you had to do was to google the information; three, it detracts from what the thread is really about.
Now back on topic - Tenebre I have been following your thread for a bit now but have not commented on it for sake of not wanting to get involved - but seeing all the victim blaming is getting me a bit riled up so I hope you rise above it and go for the throat. You paid these guys expecting an outcome, and that outcome was not met in the slightest - if I was BTP I would have quickly damage controlled this whole situation by offering you a refund on what level it looks like (and by looking at the video closely, it looks like a level 2 at best). That would have allowed you to seek other painters to clean up the mess that my company made. However, by offering to do services, then back pedaling, then threatening saying that you have taken this to the court of public opinion is tantamount to image suicide. Now DakkaDakka sadly is not ALL of the miniature enthusiast out there - but the bright side to this is that you have now shown us what happens when they make a mistake. So, I thank you sir for bringing this to light instead of letting BTP bury this for it gives us a better image of who these people are.
Thank you - and good luck.
Sir.. Sir.. Name dropping was done and I would like to see such followed by easily accessed links. How ever, this was supplied to me and thus cooling my building rage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And when it comes to the terrain, not saying I would had done better, but one probably might expect something out of the ordinary with such a unique trade..
I kinda love this thread. Not the fact that it could turn into a lynch mob or, what happened to Ten but, I like how the community can come together to serve justice. Reminds me of a domino effect.
I think the Tau terrain is actually pretty good, however, the paintjob makes it look like it's still foam. Bad paintjob, but good terrain. Either way, not a fair trade by any stretch of the imagination for the Eldar Titan.
Lt. Coldfire wrote: I think the Tau terrain is actually pretty good, however, the paintjob makes it look like it's still foam. Bad paintjob, but good terrain. Either way, not a fair trade by any stretch of the imagination for the Eldar Titan.
This was for the long (even then) OOP armorcast Eldar titan, before the forgeworld one was made. They were selling for 800+ on ebay around that time and not only was this terrain made by someone who'd never made terrain before but there was a very very long wait for it, despite prompts and requests. It was really about Shawn getting the titan and selling it on in very short order then putting his side of the deal on the back burner for a long time indeed. As I recall, it was only due to public shaming that the terrain was made in the end and then he got that stuff... which again prompted a bout of public shaming by bootlegtattoo and others.
It looks like they just took a felt tip marker pen and drew the line "details" on. For that price, the line details should have been sculpted, carved or scored directly into the foam and it should have been given a paint job of the highest quality with expert weathering, battle damage and bases that weren't just what appeared to be bare painted green plastic or wood without sand and flock/grass and other details.
step 2: make funny shapes with poster board and glue to cardboard squares (hot tip: make them really tall and people will be awed by how tall it is)
Step 3: use sharpie marker to draw lines all over poster board.
Step 4: Glue flock on top of cardboard to look like grass. (hot tip: if you get glue / flock on the "building" just say you were going for the climbing vine effect for extra amazement)
Step 5: Trade your Max $25 budget professional tau terrain for a *priceless OOP model
*priceless is specifically the word shawn uses in the video describing the eldar titan.
Coldwill wrote: I kinda love this thread. Not the fact that it could turn into a lynch mob or, what happened to Ten but, I like how the community can come together to serve justice. Reminds me of a domino effect.
Well, there's not a lynch mob going on. This is a reaction to an unfair and unjust situation and people speaking out against unethical business practices. There's not a lot of gray area here, Tenebrae is quoting source materials and has acted with a lot of restraint.
We are a community of gamers with shared ideas about what is right and wrong. Whether it's ripping people off, cheating at the gaming table, Forgeworld, rulebooks that are sparse on rules, etc, these all part of an ethic internal to this community. We can all identify with the problems he faces and (mostly) want to see a fair and equitable outcome.
The way I see it, BTP may offer a fine service but violated one of these rules of the community. They need to do what's right. A mostly civil discussion about that is not the same as a lynch mob. That really only happens over at 4chan.
Coldwill wrote: I kinda love this thread. Not the fact that it could turn into a lynch mob or, what happened to Ten but, I like how the community can come together to serve justice. Reminds me of a domino effect.
Well, there's not a lynch mob going on.
Oh I know, that's why I wrote "it could," not that it has. I was not implying that is one but, like all threads it could go south and become one. It hasn't the community is quite mature.
Coldwill wrote: I kinda love this thread. Not the fact that it could turn into a lynch mob or, what happened to Ten but, I like how the community can come together to serve justice. Reminds me of a domino effect.
Well, there's not a lynch mob going on.
Oh I know, that's why I wrote "it could," not that it has. I was not implying that is one but, like all threads it could go south and become one. It hasn't the community is quite mature.
As for the rest of what you said, I agree.
Word up for not totally taking that the wrong way and turning my misunderstanding into a heated argument! You rock coldwill!
Did you guys see this vid yet on youtube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlpRxOxJdK8 It is basically a commentary on tenebres video, but . . . a few comments down there is a absolute torpedo of a post from SPENCER who worked there for two years.
This is a nuclear bomb of a detailed post that shows you , FROM AN INSIDER, how much of a FRAUD and a CON ARTIST gately really is.
Everyone in the gaming industry should avoid this company like they would avoid the ebola virus
Quote from spencers post:
"I spent two years working at BTP until, very recently, being let go for disagreeing with Shawn and trying ti make his company money. So I want to address a few things about this situation because you covered it quite well.
1) The BTP way of painting is to get it done as quickly as possible(ironically sometimes) so quality control gets pushed aside pretty often. More often than not when a project gets behind(due to some really dumb ways of using money) Shawn will just demand it gets churned out ASAP regardless. I'd seen projects where people paid thousands of dollars for armies and stuff that even I, as a gakky painter with next to no skill, would have picked out was left untouched because "oh that's not part of that level." Entire weapons with nothing more than a simple drybrush of grey over black in a few spots would be called painted.
2) Shawn has zero ethics. He believes that he should be able to do whatever he wants, how he wants with no interference from anyone. He seriously asked our state representative when he came to visit(some bs about empowering local companies blah blah) if he would consider lowering the legal working age to 12 so he could have his kids be legally employed at his company. He believes himself entirely in the right all the time. The Dropzone Commander "studio" armies that were basically given to him for free by Dave Lewis he was trying to sell. He tried to have me sell painted Heavy Gear models to Dream Pod 9. Every model that was sent to the studio due to my work I took with me when I left because otherwise he would try and sell them despite being given to the studio as signs of good faith or for reviews and such. He once described an idea he got from a company that was a total pyramid scheme, and he thought we should implement something like it. He has some "business mentor" who's a total con-artist and feeds him bs and lies on a regular basis. He listens to motivational speeches from people who don't give two gaks about the people listening, so long as they give them money. He believes being manipulative, scheming and acting like a scam artist is the best thing for his company.
3) He will never, ever, empower someone else in that company. You may recall a chap by the name of Rob who was COO of BTP for a bit. He then, financially, fethed the company over hard. During slumps he was giving himself massive pay raises while trying to find the best way to cut everyone else's pay. Rob's actions have scarred Shawn to the point where, even though it would greatly help his company, he will never entrust someone else to run the show again. Shawn running things means he can get away with whatever he wants, and that's exactly how he likes it. Shannon should, by all means, be running that business, but because he got burned Shawn will never trust anyone with BTP; even if they are the better choice.
4)You're absolutely right that Shawn doesn't care about what the customer thinks. He thinks he knows everything there is, and yet he doesn't even know how to produce quality video content for his own YouTube channel because editing and HD "takes too long to upload." He thinks he knows everything about the industry, but he's totally oblivious to how much the gaming industry has changed in the last five to ten years. To him the customer is just a walking wallet.
And it's all a real shame too because, in the right hands, BTP could be a great company in the industry. But its so poorly run and the people who could make things better are basically scared into submission because, as I'm an example to it, Shawn will fire you if you don't bend to his every whim every second. If he suggests an idea that's completely slowed and makes no sense saying "I think we should do this other thing that we've done before and is proven to make money" instantly puts you on the Shawn Gately gak list. It's a sad state, and he'll tank that company. Worst part is; it won't be the first time."
What a bombshell but, after all this it makes sense. You know what I find ironic? Shawn is the most annoying member of that company, when I used to watch their videos I would skip the ones with him in it, not realizing he owned the place.
Edit: Reminds me and comes across as an old used anything salesman.
Dunno about irony, but I think it lessens his righteous indignation and witnessing against BTP. Of course his railing isn't vital in proving that the company is shady as all get out.
Look at the perks. You give them $10k and they will give you free clothing from their new line, access to all their new videos and DVDs, and enter your name 10x times for giveaways.
I'm starting to think it's time to put a stop to this madness. *Rolls up sleeves, clentches fists*
i usually take testimonials from ex employees with a grain of salt. In this instance, his post isn't really needed in forming an opinion about BTP and their dealings.
Look at the perks. You give them $10k and they will give you free clothing from their new line, access to all their new videos and DVDs, and enter your name 10x times for giveaways.
I'm starting to think it's time to put a stop to this madness. *Rolls up sleeves, clentches fists*
There was a thread a few years back where BTP was paying their artist as independent contractors but was not allowing them to for anyone else. They stopped this practice when it was pointed out it was not legal. They have always had some questionable business practices.
I remember years ago a friend of mine had a commission to "fix" a BTP project. It was a interesting conversion but very poorly assembled and painted. He said never again would he touch a BTP repair.
This same friend has a GK commission from when the 5th edition codex came out. Due to magnetization issues it was not something he was looking forward to doing. The client will be pretty happy with the army once he gets it I am sure.
If the artist is talented enough a client can expect to wait longer then normal for a project to get done. Those projects tend to push the limits of the artists.
Live with Shawn for a week for $1200. He will business mentor you and let paint miniatures with the BTP crew. For another $1200 he will mentor you more.
While i am not familiar with the detail regarding the titan, people in general tend to over estimate what they have.
Say you have a fig that retails for about 1000. If you trade it in to a retailer, you will be lucky if you get 500. You are not dealing with another particular, you are dealing with a retailer and they tend to double up on their merchandise cost. Many will actually buy it for 500, list it at 1000 and cut a deal when some one ask for it for 750 and call it a day. Again not commenting on this deal in particular, but i see a lot of people trading in to retailers expecting to get the same they would get from a particular.
xxvaderxx wrote: While i am not familiar with the detail regarding the titan, people in general tend to over estimate what they have.
Say you have a fig that retails for about 1000. If you trade it in to a retailer, you will be lucky if you get 500. You are not dealing with another particular, you are dealing with a retailer and they tend to double up on their merchandise cost. Many will actually buy it for 500, list it at 1000 and cut a deal when some one ask for it for 750 and call it a day. Again not commenting on this deal in particular, but i see a lot of people trading in to retailers expecting to get the same they would get from a particular.
The Titan deal was another case of BTP ignoring what the customer wanted and doing what the felt like. It was not the value of the Titan that was in question, it was the value of the work done.
xxvaderxx wrote: Not talking about that, just in general, your 1k mini is not worth 1k to a retailer.
That's not really the issue, though. The issue is that the terrain received in exchange wasn't even worth a quarter of that. Or maybe even a tenth. It was an incredibly poor effort that cost BTP practically nothing, that they still made the client wait a couple months to receive on top of that.
No one's saying they got ripped off because BTP didn't make terrain that was worth $1,000.
Live with Shawn for a week for $1200. He will business mentor you and let paint miniatures with the BTP crew. For another $1200 he will mentor you more.
Wow, that made me laugh out loud pretty good. A few quote gems:
"Here is your chance to change your life." - Finally.
"Shawn (that's me! I'm writing this) will be glad to mentor you and give you ideas for life and help you find your own way OR business mentoring." - One OR the other, not both. Good try, scammer.
"Learn to paint awesomely and efficiently..."
And below "Comments" at the bottom: "I only approve comments that are well-worded and thoughtful."
Doesn't this part from Miniwargamings statement bother anyone else?
If you have used BTP, and have had a good experience with them, please email your experience to matthew@miniwargaming.com.
I realize that some people may have had bad experiences (they do a LOT of jobs every month, so obviously there will be customers who wouldn't be happy with their work), but we're only really interested in the positive experiences for this video.
It's preemptive. They knew they'd get flack for this, so much so that they had to qualify that they don't even want your email if you didn't have a favorable experience with them.
This hurts a lot, because it's obvious what's going on and I just don't want to believe it. For whatever reason the MWG guys are "in" with Shawn and will only be helping him get away with this.
I don't want to admit that's true because I actually like MWG, I'm a gold vault member. I don't know how I can continue to be so after this though
I'm sure BTP is very careful not to step on other youtubers toes. So Matt might genuinely believe Shawn is okay, but surely Dave who is so harsh on GW for every little thing would have a problem with this?
Either cognitive dissonance or money is playing in this and it's depressing.
I think asking for any deposit for paint work is a poor choice. You have the model itself as collateral. And you'll be able to sell the finished model to someone else for the same price. That's if you bought the model for them or had the customer furnish it themselves.
You can always up the paint level of an unclaimed model and sell it yourself. Someone will pay the cash for a model if its truly painted professionally.
Asking 65% deposit is downright extortion, especially for someone who has a reputation thats a little tarnished.
Honestly, looking at these Chaos Dwarves, I could have done better for half the price. At least you'd have had some more colors, maybe less OSL.
Well it's official, I've canceled my gold membership. If MWG changes their mind about this, I wouldn't have a problem coming back at copper level but I doubt that'll happen. I almost feel bad giving them 20 dollars a month for so long.
sorry, Grey Templar, but it is quite normal to ask for a deposit on a commission...
65% for a company with a bad rep does seem like extortion, but 50% down to a reputable studio is the norm...
there is a lot more to commission painting than just painting...
there is not only customer satisfaction issues, like we are seeing here, but there is also the question of scheduling, which is the point of the deposit...
if a customer is willing to put down 50% of the commission rate, then you can be pretty certain that they will still want the minis when the job is done...
while working on a commission, especially one that takes a while like an army, there are a lot of other commissions that are getting turned down, or scheduled to wait 6 months in the queue...
the point of the deposit is to secure a client's place in the queue, and also to ensure that the time spent on the work is not wasted...
if you think that it is automatically easy to recoop lost money when a client backs out on a finished commission, you obviously haven't tried to sell a custom conversion, painted to a client's specifications on ebay...
the price is never what the original commission would have brought in...
without a deposit, the artist really gets screwed...
it just happened to a friend of mine earlier this month...
time is lost, other potential clients are lost, and it really throws a monkey wrench in the works...
the point of this lesson here with BTP, keeping the customer happy is rule number one...
instead, BTP chose to extort this guys minis to get the rest of their payment, even when he wasn't happy with the work...
now they are going to lose a lot of business over it...
that is not how a good commission painter does business...
a commission painter is there to serve the client, and exceed their expectations...
at least, that's how i see it...
i have clients that are happy to pay the whole fee up front (even though only half was required) because they know thay are going to get amazing work, that most people don't provide...
in my experience, nobody has ever balked at dropping a 50% deposit if they were serious about the commission, and always receive something even better than they expected...
people need to understand that BTP is an example of how not to do things, and not the norm of how work with a good studio gets done...
jah-joshua wrote: sorry, Grey Templar, but it is quite normal to ask for a deposit on a commission...
65% for a company with a bad rep does seem like extortion, but 50% down to a reputable studio is the norm...
there is a lot more to commission painting than just painting...
there is not only customer satisfaction issues, like we are seeing here, but there is also the question of scheduling, which is the point of the deposit...
if a customer is willing to put down 50% of the commission rate, then you can be pretty certain that they will still want the minis when the job is done...
while working on a commission, especially one that takes a while like an army, there are a lot of other commissions that are getting turned down, or scheduled to wait 6 months in the queue...
the point of the deposit is to secure a client's place in the queue, and also to ensure that the time spent on the work is not wasted...
if you think that it is automatically easy to recoop lost money when a client backs out on a finished commission, you obviously haven't tried to sell a custom conversion, painted to a client's specifications on ebay...
the price is never what the original commission would have brought in...
without a deposit, the artist really gets screwed...
it just happened to a friend of mine earlier this month...
time is lost, other potential clients are lost, and it really throws a monkey wrench in the works...
the point of this lesson here with BTP, keeping the customer happy is rule number one...
instead, BTP chose to extort this guys minis to get the rest of their payment, even when he wasn't happy with the work...
now they are going to lose a lot of business over it...
that is not how a good commission painter does business...
a commission painter is there to serve the client, and exceed their expectations...
at least, that's how i see it...
i have clients that are happy to pay the whole fee up front (even though only half was required) because they know thay are going to get amazing work, that most people don't provide...
in my experience, nobody has ever balked at dropping a 50% deposit if they were serious about the commission, and always receive something even better than they expected...
people need to understand that BTP is an example of how not to do things, and not the norm of how work with a good studio gets done...
cheers
jah
I tried doing digital concept art for a while in photoshop. I know what he's talking about, he's exactly right. (Though digital concept art and painting minis is loosely related, the process is the same. (Except Digital artists deposits are less up front than miniatures, as we control how much of a digital image the client previews, etc, going off topic...)
Grey Templar wrote: I think asking for any deposit for paint work is a poor choice. You have the model itself as collateral. And you'll be able to sell the finished model to someone else for the same price. That's if you bought the model for them or had the customer furnish it themselves.
Wouldn't it put you in extremely shaky legal territory to sell the models someone else has bought and sent you to paint? I imagine there is some circumstances where you'd be able to do it, but to me it would seem like a mechanic selling your car because of a disagreement over the work done.
You can always up the paint level of an unclaimed model and sell it yourself. Someone will pay the cash for a model if its truly painted professionally.
You'll never (or very rarely) sell a model randomly on the internet for the same amount as someone commissioned you to do it, especially if you're only painting it to a tabletop standard.
Honestly, looking at these Chaos Dwarves, I could have done better for half the price. At least you'd have had some more colors, maybe less OSL.
Half the price is probably a bit of a stretch, maybe, but you'd be looking at maybe an hour per infantry model and that includes cleaning/assembling/priming. It'd take me at least 2 hours per model to produce something I'd even consider selling.
But if you gave me that much money I think I'd produce something better. Of course I wouldn't do it... because I'd be earning less than my current day job
xxvaderxx wrote:While i am not familiar with the detail regarding the titan, people in general tend to over estimate what they have.
Say you have a fig that retails for about 1000. If you trade it in to a retailer, you will be lucky if you get 500. You are not dealing with another particular, you are dealing with a retailer and they tend to double up on their merchandise cost. Many will actually buy it for 500, list it at 1000 and cut a deal when some one ask for it for 750 and call it a day. Again not commenting on this deal in particular, but i see a lot of people trading in to retailers expecting to get the same they would get from a particular.
xxvaderxx wrote:Not talking about that, just in general, your 1k mini is not worth 1k to a retailer.
Whilst I agree with you about the cost to a retailer, it was the retailer himself that said the mini was priceless and cannot get it anywhere... like anywhere!
At the time Titans weren't available and they were selling for astronomical prices, take a look at the current Armorcast Great Gargants sell prices.
Not wanting to start a flame war here but it seems you're being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. The OP has spent thousands of $'s on a spectacular army full of custom pieces and conversions, he didn't get anywhere near the service he paid for, and you say the community are overreacting?
Back OT, Tenebre I truly hope you get this sorted fella, I have my own CD army pre forgeworld and I love them to bits, I would loathe to see what happened to yours happen to mine, or indeed any other army.
I've been following this case since the beginning, and want to say that I fully support tenebre in this matter - I hope that you reach an amicable resolution.
As to the MWG promotion mentioned earlier in the thread, I have emailed Matt detailing my concerns about the nature of it, and that I would have to seriously reconsider my Vault membership status should it proceed as an 'only positive experiences allowed' project - I strongly urge other MWG Vault members to do the same. It's entirely possible that MWG arn't aware of the details of the case, but it's equally possible that they are compliant with it being a PR move on BTP's behalf - either way, they should be made aware of the community's thoughts and the possible consequences of their actions.
"That's still anecdotal evidence, or one well documented case. What it comes down to is that BTP does a LOT of commissions on a regular basis, so of course there will be more people not happy than the next guy who does a handful per year.
All I can say is that I've been very happy with the work they've done for us, and I have seen their business from the inside out, so I know what systems they have in place to protect your miniatures and get the job done well."
So they DO know of Tenebre's trouble. They just choose to disregard is as anecdotal whilst using their own anecdotal evidence as a reason why everything is fine.
If you look around they get some flakk for the planned video... they knew and they know. We'll see if they go through with it now.
Ok wow, no respect for MWG left. First thing I heard in that video was that BTP hosted something at Valhalla for them, which at the moment I am guessing was paid for by BTP.
Interestingly I had a few people message me about similar experiences, but they even admitted they either had no ability to make a video or were too "afraid" to do so.
This isnt like its one bad experience, as i pointed out every step of the process was riddled with "issues". also the size and nature of project speaks volumes to the work. If a large high profile project gets treated as such, then what would become of a smaller project?
The bottom line is most people would have pulled the video or never posted it as that is the first thing they demand.
I was not aware of so many other "bad" projects or situations but as you all have pointed out this is not an isolated case which makes its far from anecdotal. (i too watched a lot of MWG videos. :( )
I don't think you can have honest reviews or even critiques if you are taking money from the supplier. You can't expect GW to give insight into their own product because they want a positive review so customers will buy.
jah-joshua wrote: sorry, Grey Templar, but it is quite normal to ask for a deposit on a commission...
65% for a company with a bad rep does seem like extortion, but 50% down to a reputable studio is the norm...
50% was the norm when I was using BTP 6+ years ago. seems to have changed quite a bit.
So MWG comented that I asked for a "pretty ridiculous refund"
for those that care i asked for a 60% refund (this was based on the cost estimate of another painting service to paint them up to the agreed standard)
Shawn proposed using GMM to do the work. I agreed to this and then he retracted the offer after i agreed because GMM wanted 150% of the project cost. in other words the entire price of my project plus another 50%.
So it appears my "pretty ridiculous" request was not so ridiculous.
If MWG was smart (which obvious they are not) they should not get involved in this situation. I am glad I don't scribe to any thing that MWG puts on the Internet would not give either BTP or MWG a nickel of my money
What bothers me most is that up until now, I have seen MWG as far more interested and invested in the players. Looking at the way they hammer on GW for its policies and decisions, you'd think they are firmly on the side of the individual players and gamers.
But now they are participating in the same kind of victim blaming and marginalizing that BTP is doing because, more or less, they are in collusion with another company. Now I don't expect them to go on the offensive, because maybe they have had great BTP experiences (would make sense) but when thousands of dollars are in the lurch, to minimize it with "one documented case" is just disgusting.
Yeah MWG has been doing the slow circle ever since they had to get rid of their store. Matt has also taken a holier than thou attitude since then and the batreps have taken a nose dive. I have to say though the old world wars haven't been half bad.
tenebre wrote: So MWG comented that I asked for a "pretty ridiculous refund"
for those that care i asked for a 60% refund (this was based on the cost estimate of another painting service to paint them up to the agreed standard)
Shawn proposed using GMM to do the work. I agreed to this and then he retracted the offer after i agreed because GMM wanted 150% of the project cost. in other words the entire price of my project plus another 50%.
So it appears my "pretty ridiculous" request was not so ridiculous.
I have the feeling that 60% will be a drop in the bucket compared to lost commissions over the long term. Shawn seems to be doing absolutely everything wrong as a business owner.
This isn't the first time that MWG is jumping to help blue table, i think it was around the time that blue table got a lot of flak for the kickstarter and some bad projects arose that they decided to do a 'hey were just here at btp studios lets say hi' video.
curran12 wrote: What bothers me most is that up until now, I have seen MWG as far more interested and invested in the players. Looking at the way they hammer on GW for its policies and decisions, you'd think they are firmly on the side of the individual players and gamers.
But now they are participating in the same kind of victim blaming and marginalizing that BTP is doing because, more or less, they are in collusion with another company. Now I don't expect them to go on the offensive, because maybe they have had great BTP experiences (would make sense) but when thousands of dollars are in the lurch, to minimize it with "one documented case" is just disgusting.
I'm not sure where you're getting this "hammering" they give GW on the part of consumers... unless your version of hammering is gingerly brushing them across the face with an child's woolen mitten. The only time I've seen them get riled up is when THEY as a RETAILER were negatively affected by the change in retailer terms and posted a long video about it. Other than that, they take a very neutral "who knows" stance on horribad GW policies that basically amounts to them saying "maybe that isn't such a good idea... dunno". That is about as pro-consumer I've seen them get. That said, it's not their job (figuratively and literally) to be some sort of consumer watchdog for the pew pew toy soldier industry. I do, however, think that despite their personal friendship and professional partnership with Shaun and BTP that they should stay out of the mess that the painting company has created.
Grey Templar wrote: I think asking for any deposit for paint work is a poor choice. You have the model itself as collateral. And you'll be able to sell the finished model to someone else for the same price. That's if you bought the model for them or had the customer furnish it themselves.
Wouldn't it put you in extremely shaky legal territory to sell the models someone else has bought and sent you to paint? I imagine there is some circumstances where you'd be able to do it, but to me it would seem like a mechanic selling your car because of a disagreement over the work done.
You can always up the paint level of an unclaimed model and sell it yourself. Someone will pay the cash for a model if its truly painted professionally.
You'll never (or very rarely) sell a model randomly on the internet for the same amount as someone commissioned you to do it, especially if you're only painting it to a tabletop standard.
Honestly, looking at these Chaos Dwarves, I could have done better for half the price. At least you'd have had some more colors, maybe less OSL.
Half the price is probably a bit of a stretch, maybe, but you'd be looking at maybe an hour per infantry model and that includes cleaning/assembling/priming. It'd take me at least 2 hours per model to produce something I'd even consider selling.
But if you gave me that much money I think I'd produce something better. Of course I wouldn't do it... because I'd be earning less than my current day job
1) Not at all. The model is collateral for the work. If you aren't paid, you keep the collateral. Its best if you put it in writing, but its not totally necessary. Asking for a cash deposit on top of everything is a bad faith gesture.
2) It is if you include the price of the model itself. The paint work will be discounted, but you will make the price of the model as profit. Thats working with the assumption that you didn't also pay for the model. in which case that is to only cash I would condone asking for upfront. Basically the client either mails you the model OR send you the retail price of the model and asks you to purchase it for them. That way, you're never out for anything other than the paint and time. SO when you sell it for price of model+75% of the paint work, the model's cost is basically profit.
3) Well duh. But when you break down painting to hourly, its not a bad hourly job.
Grey Templar wrote: I think asking for any deposit for paint work is a poor choice. You have the model itself as collateral. And you'll be able to sell the finished model to someone else for the same price. That's if you bought the model for them or had the customer furnish it themselves.
Wouldn't it put you in extremely shaky legal territory to sell the models someone else has bought and sent you to paint? I imagine there is some circumstances where you'd be able to do it, but to me it would seem like a mechanic selling your car because of a disagreement over the work done.
You can always up the paint level of an unclaimed model and sell it yourself. Someone will pay the cash for a model if its truly painted professionally.
You'll never (or very rarely) sell a model randomly on the internet for the same amount as someone commissioned you to do it, especially if you're only painting it to a tabletop standard.
Honestly, looking at these Chaos Dwarves, I could have done better for half the price. At least you'd have had some more colors, maybe less OSL.
Half the price is probably a bit of a stretch, maybe, but you'd be looking at maybe an hour per infantry model and that includes cleaning/assembling/priming. It'd take me at least 2 hours per model to produce something I'd even consider selling.
But if you gave me that much money I think I'd produce something better. Of course I wouldn't do it... because I'd be earning less than my current day job
1) Not at all. The model is collateral for the work. If you aren't paid, you keep the collateral. Its best if you put it in writing, but its not totally necessary. Asking for a cash deposit on top of everything is a bad faith gesture.
2) It is if you include the price of the model itself. The paint work will be discounted, but you will make the price of the model as profit. Thats working with the assumption that you didn't also pay for the model. in which case that is to only cash I would condone asking for upfront. Basically the client either mails you the model OR send you the retail price of the model and asks you to purchase it for them. That way, you're never out for anything other than the paint and time. SO when you sell it for price of model+75% of the paint work, the model's cost is basically profit.
3) Well duh. But when you break down painting to hourly, its not a bad hourly job.
1. No, it is not, unless there is a written contract to that effect. It is in fact not legally shaky, it is outright illegal.
As a commissioned painter I typically do ask for half up front on larger orders - there is no joy in getting partway through and having the customer cancel. Faith has to go both ways.
I prefer to break a large order into manageable pieces - so I charge for a unit, get half up front, paint the unit, send a photo to the customer, make any corrections, get the rest of the money, and ship. Then repeat on the next unit, and the next, etc..
When I was doing more commission painting I got into the habit of buying pistol cases at WalMart and using them for shipping (the pistol cases back then went for $6US) - and never had models get damaged in shipping. I added the cost of the case to the order, but then they had the case and could use it for toting their minis around.
I do not ask for an up front payment for single miniatures, unless I have to buy the mini.
More often than not I am working for a local gamer when I am painting for commission at all these days- so they can watch me painting away at Burger King or wherever. (I have an easier time painting when there are people buzzing around... do not ask me why. most often it is Burger King, but sometimes Wendy's.)
Painting for locals also means that whether I buy the mini or they buy the mini we both know what the start is.
Live with Shawn for a week for $1200. He will business mentor you and let paint miniatures with the BTP crew. For another $1200 he will mentor you more.
Wow, that made me laugh out loud pretty good. A few quote gems:
"Here is your chance to change your life." - Finally.
"Shawn (that's me! I'm writing this) will be glad to mentor you and give you ideas for life and help you find your own way OR business mentoring." - One OR the other, not both. Good try, scammer.
"Learn to paint awesomely and efficiently..."
And below "Comments" at the bottom: "I only approve comments that are well-worded and thoughtful."
LOL
Are there really lessons in endless drybrushing over primer?
Live with Shawn for a week for $1200. He will business mentor you and let paint miniatures with the BTP crew. For another $1200 he will mentor you more.
Wow, that made me laugh out loud pretty good. A few quote gems:
"Here is your chance to change your life." - Finally.
"Shawn (that's me! I'm writing this) will be glad to mentor you and give you ideas for life and help you find your own way OR business mentoring." - One OR the other, not both. Good try, scammer.
"Learn to paint awesomely and efficiently..."
And below "Comments" at the bottom: "I only approve comments that are well-worded and thoughtful."
LOL
Are there really lessons in endless drybrushing over primer?
How to paint a Necron army in time for the tournament?
For all the outrage against MWG and BTP, has no one tried to gather a list of folks BTP has screwed? So far, I've heard a couple folks say they were, but mostly, it's "My friend was unhappy", "This person can't make a video or is afraid to".
Focusing on just one documented case -even one as totally egregious as this one- is not going to really hit BTP or make MWG break ties with a company that seems to give them free (or reduced) painting services and possibly also lodging and space at BTP conventions.
You all are in the right, but if you want to make a difference, you've got to cast a wider net and catch something to show for it.
MWG seems stuck in an odd place. They can't go back on BTP's contract probably due to similar reasons on why Corvus Belli doesn't dump them outright.
MWG also seems to have run into bad luck. They got screwed by Games Workshop and closed their storefront. They seem like a group of people that honestly is trying to make right, but are contractually obligated to take sides because of their dealings with BTP. It's doubtful that they knowingly made deals with BTP considering their history. Their dealings may be a lingering contract.
Absolutionis wrote: ...butt are contractually obligated to take sides because of their dealings with BTP.
Do you really think so? Contracted to take sides, I mean. Feeling obliged, sure. But staying mum, while awkward, shouldn't breach any written agreements...I assume. The third possibility, public dissention with a partner, obviously is unlikely.
Eilif wrote: For all the outrage against MWG and BTP, has no one tried to gather a list of folks BTP has screwed? So far, I've heard a couple folks say they were, but mostly, it's "My friend was unhappy", "This person can't make a video or is afraid to".
Focusing on just one documented case -even one as totally egregious as this one- is not going to really hit BTP or make MWG break ties with a company that seems to give them free (or reduced) painting services and possibly also lodging and space at BTP conventions.
You all are in the right, but if you want to make a difference, you've got to cast a wider net and catch something to show for it.
I think this is really important to build on, could someone give maybe start up a new thread collecting info on botched BTP jobs, as well as general problems faced by customers of BTP. A lot of the white-knights for BTP or
whoever, are just going to say "its just a few jobs" but if enough people posts problems it goes from just a few to a serious problem that no one can deny in which case places like MWG and CB have to take seriously.
Even if they are contracted to not say things about BTP, there is nothing stopping them from renewing their contract with them when it does expire. At least bring a full, developed case to their face and make them realize it.
On Nov 1, 2014, at 21:30, Shawn Gately <projects@bluetablepainting.com> wrote:
Hello Grix!
Just a friendly check in on your Warhammer Fantasy project, or whatever you may be dreaming up. Did I give you enough information? Do you need advice about anything? I can also schedule a consultation by either phone or Skype for you with myself or Steve in inquires.
What can I do for you?
We are ready just as soon as you are.
You can see our what's up at BTP here:
Blog...
Sent them this reply
Im sorry having read some of the threads about the Chaos Dwarf debacle I do not feel safe placing an order.
Thanks
Well see if they reply. At least they know that this issue lost them a customer...
neal1975 wrote: Did you guys see this vid yet on youtube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlpRxOxJdK8 It is basically a commentary on tenebres video, but . . . a few comments down there is a absolute torpedo of a post from SPENCER who worked there for two years.
This is a nuclear bomb of a detailed post that shows you , FROM AN INSIDER, how much of a FRAUD and a CON ARTIST gately really is.
Everyone in the gaming industry should avoid this company like they would avoid the ebola virus
Quote from spencers post:
"I spent two years working at BTP until, very recently, being let go for disagreeing with Shawn and trying ti make his company money. So I want to address a few things about this situation because you covered it quite well.
1) The BTP way of painting is to get it done as quickly as possible(ironically sometimes) so quality control gets pushed aside pretty often. More often than not when a project gets behind(due to some really dumb ways of using money) Shawn will just demand it gets churned out ASAP regardless. I'd seen projects where people paid thousands of dollars for armies and stuff that even I, as a gakky painter with next to no skill, would have picked out was left untouched because "oh that's not part of that level." Entire weapons with nothing more than a simple drybrush of grey over black in a few spots would be called painted.
2) Shawn has zero ethics. He believes that he should be able to do whatever he wants, how he wants with no interference from anyone. He seriously asked our state representative when he came to visit(some bs about empowering local companies blah blah) if he would consider lowering the legal working age to 12 so he could have his kids be legally employed at his company. He believes himself entirely in the right all the time. The Dropzone Commander "studio" armies that were basically given to him for free by Dave Lewis he was trying to sell. He tried to have me sell painted Heavy Gear models to Dream Pod 9. Every model that was sent to the studio due to my work I took with me when I left because otherwise he would try and sell them despite being given to the studio as signs of good faith or for reviews and such. He once described an idea he got from a company that was a total pyramid scheme, and he thought we should implement something like it. He has some "business mentor" who's a total con-artist and feeds him bs and lies on a regular basis. He listens to motivational speeches from people who don't give two gaks about the people listening, so long as they give them money. He believes being manipulative, scheming and acting like a scam artist is the best thing for his company.
3) He will never, ever, empower someone else in that company. You may recall a chap by the name of Rob who was COO of BTP for a bit. He then, financially, fethed the company over hard. During slumps he was giving himself massive pay raises while trying to find the best way to cut everyone else's pay. Rob's actions have scarred Shawn to the point where, even though it would greatly help his company, he will never entrust someone else to run the show again. Shawn running things means he can get away with whatever he wants, and that's exactly how he likes it. Shannon should, by all means, be running that business, but because he got burned Shawn will never trust anyone with BTP; even if they are the better choice.
4)You're absolutely right that Shawn doesn't care about what the customer thinks. He thinks he knows everything there is, and yet he doesn't even know how to produce quality video content for his own YouTube channel because editing and HD "takes too long to upload." He thinks he knows everything about the industry, but he's totally oblivious to how much the gaming industry has changed in the last five to ten years. To him the customer is just a walking wallet.
And it's all a real shame too because, in the right hands, BTP could be a great company in the industry. But its so poorly run and the people who could make things better are basically scared into submission because, as I'm an example to it, Shawn will fire you if you don't bend to his every whim every second. If he suggests an idea that's completely slowed and makes no sense saying "I think we should do this other thing that we've done before and is proven to make money" instantly puts you on the Shawn Gately gak list. It's a sad state, and he'll tank that company. Worst part is; it won't be the first time."
This is great stuff. Maybe Spencer might be willing to help if Tenebre reaches that point in the legal work.
The video was decent, coming from someone that was on the original boycott bandwagon when it was Titan for Terrain. Sustainable Center used to be TonyponyF if i am correct. Good on him offering a non-biased opinion this time around.
As per MWG, Long ago I realized that they aren't all that to which people gave them credit for. Back when it was a club it was cool beans, when they had the store, was good for a time. I haven't watched a Video in a good couple years of theirs because they became the opposite of what it originally was. Much to what Spencer said about BTP being a shell of its former self.
lastly, I think its past the popcorn stage, better get the hot dogs and brats for roasting now
Physh wrote: This is great stuff. Maybe Spencer might be willing to help if Tenebre reaches that point in the legal work.
The video was decent, coming from someone that was on the original boycott bandwagon when it was Titan for Terrain. Sustainable Center used to be TonyponyF if i am correct. Good on him offering a non-biased opinion this time around.
That would be amazing but, I thought Ten was against a legal claim at this point? Correct me if I'm wrong though?
Grey Templar wrote: 1) Not at all. The model is collateral for the work. If you aren't paid, you keep the collateral. Its best if you put it in writing, but its not totally necessary. Asking for a cash deposit on top of everything is a bad faith gesture.
2) It is if you include the price of the model itself. The paint work will be discounted, but you will make the price of the model as profit. Thats working with the assumption that you didn't also pay for the model. in which case that is to only cash I would condone asking for upfront. Basically the client either mails you the model OR send you the retail price of the model and asks you to purchase it for them. That way, you're never out for anything other than the paint and time. SO when you sell it for price of model+75% of the paint work, the model's cost is basically profit.
3) Well duh. But when you break down painting to hourly, its not a bad hourly job.
1. Ok, if you say so. I assumed it worked like a car over here, where a mechanic doesn't have to return your car (and can charge you storage fees) but they can't just turn around and sell it.
2. I still think you overestimate how much table top quality sells for. For a table top quality model, I doubt you'll sell it for much more than the base model is worth. The Chaos Dwarf infantry is only $6USD per model, that's not going to cover the time it took you to paint it. Some more expensive models you might get away with, Bull Centaurs are $32 each, so you might sell them for as much as you would have gotten for the commission. Most things I doubt you'd make back how much you were planning on getting off commission painting them.
3. My entire point was that it WAS a bad hourly pay You said you could do better at half the price, that kind of means you'd do better if you only spent an hour on each model, which I think is stretching it a bit once you include the time it takes to clean/assemble/base/prime the models.
I think I have done my part, and sent a mail to MWG with what I think about this whole thing. And I highly suggest the rest of you do as well. BTP is the villain here. Help MWG recognize which side is the light side and which is the dark.
Reality-Torrent wrote: I think I have done my part, and sent a mail to MWG with what I think about this whole thing. And I highly suggest the rest of you do as well. BTP is the villain here. Help MWG recognize which side is the light side and which is the dark.
Why is your opinion right and theirs wrong? Who are you to decide what they have to think?
Reality-Torrent wrote: I think I have done my part, and sent a mail to MWG with what I think about this whole thing. And I highly suggest the rest of you do as well. BTP is the villain here. Help MWG recognize which side is the light side and which is the dark.
Why is your opinion right and theirs wrong? Who are you to decide what they have to think?
Do you even see what you write?
I never said my opinion was right and theirs was wrong. "with what -> I <- think" clearly states that this is how I feel about it.
Who am I to say what I feel is right or wrong? I am a member of the community, I have a voice and the right to believe as I wish to believe. Who are you sir, to say I am not allowed think as I think?
At no point did I tell people what to say either. I urged people to tell MWG what they felt.
text removed. Don't make comments like this on Dakka. Reds8n
"Help MWG recognize which side is the light side and which is the dark". Your opinion on the "light side and the dark side" is your opinion, they dont have to share this opinion, you do not have to send them any emails about what you think, because they do not care. If MWG stated their opinion on BTP you dont have to mail them to tell them who is the villain here, they can decide that for themselves.
Also you ask me if I even see what I write yet you make up accusations out of thin air, I never told you you are not allowed to think, I just said that you cannot decide what MWG should think. And I never said anything about telling people what to say. In my post "they" was a reference to MWG.
Also I'm not siding with BTP on this issue, however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality. Also why not send them back to BTP to let them fix things? Yes you send them 3 emails on what to do and they didnt do it, but do you really think that if you send them again they will just do nothing and ship them back to you? Now that they have an exact list of what there is to fix they can fix it and be done with the issue. But nooooo you cant send them back to evil BTP because what? Do you honestly think they will sell your army if you send it back for touch up work? Seriously grow up and handle this like an adult would.
M0ff3l wrote: however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality.
I think you can objectively say that if ANY primer is showing on a model then it is below par for a tabletop quality model, let alone the level OP paid for. Honestly if I got those models back from a commission I'd be stripping them.
M0ff3l wrote: however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality.
I think you can objectively say that if ANY primer is showing on a model then it is below par for a tabletop quality model, let alone the level OP paid for. Honestly if I got those models back from a commission I'd be stripping them.
They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that? And its not like BTP is denying that hose are flaws, they are willing to fix it but the op doenst want that?
Also I'm not siding with BTP on this issue, however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality. Also why not send them back to BTP to let them fix things? Yes you send them 3 emails on what to do and they didnt do it, but do you really think that if you send them again they will just do nothing and ship them back to you? Now that they have an exact list of what there is to fix they can fix it and be done with the issue. But nooooo you cant send them back to evil BTP because what? Do you honestly think they will sell your army if you send it back for touch up work? Seriously grow up and handle this like an adult would.
No. The work done is appalling. Take that as a professional opinion. Even for a very low target spec the work is BAD.
The reason not to send stuff back is that the service has demonstrated it either cannot or will not work to spec. It is a broken trust.
I doubt there is fear that the army would be sold. More that the work simply will still not be done to spec.
In terms of the discount, the figure was arrived at based on BTPs own pricing structure and descriptions of quality level (a concept I despises at root).
M0ff3l wrote: They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that?
YES!
The paint and primer have different textures and reflect light differently. At level 4 and 6, I'd expect the black not only painted, but also at least partially highlighted into a grey or blue.
M0ff3l wrote: They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that?
YES!
The paint and primer have different textures and reflect light differently. At level 4 and 6, I'd expect the black not only painted, but also at least partially highlighted into a grey or blue.
Exactly. At that level it should not be black, it should be very subtle off blacks with only a pure black in the very darkest recesses of the shadows. The bulk of the black maybe something with a tiny dot if red mixed in to tie it in with the rest of the scheme, or a turquoise to contrast it. That should then show up a little more as it is highlighted.
At this level painting black as a single flat colour is unacceptable.
*Edit*
Coolmini had an example I thought I'd share. This is a quality black.
Physh wrote: This is great stuff. Maybe Spencer might be willing to help if Tenebre reaches that point in the legal work.
The video was decent, coming from someone that was on the original boycott bandwagon when it was Titan for Terrain. Sustainable Center used to be TonyponyF if i am correct. Good on him offering a non-biased opinion this time around.
That would be amazing but, I thought Ten was against a legal claim at this point? Correct me if I'm wrong though?
Quite the opposite.
Also for those that "think" they want to fix it. BTP said they will NOT fix the OSL because its only my opinion that it looks bad and they do not agree. 60% was the lowest quote i received to repair the figures (I sent it to BTP as well)
When i could not get a photo of the bale taurus face for 10 days (i r3eceived one of his back side when i asked and even that took 7 days) There is simply no way for this process to work.
they had 3 chances over more than a month to fix these issues and simply did not and since you cant get pictures there is no way to tell. And please remember In order for them to repaint i STILL have to remove the video before they would do it.
I simply highlighted the black primer on my jump pack chaplain and I still regret how flat it looks to this day. It's not unreasonable to expect it to be painted or at the very least highlighted.
They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that? And its not like BTP is denying that hose are flaws, they are willing to fix it but the op doenst want that?
You're portraying this as though the op hasn't already afforded blue table considerable leeway with time and correspondence to fix the issues. The army in the video is the end result of numerous communications and 'fixes' and it's still gak.
And yes you do paint over black undercoat with paint. You don't leave undercoat exposed on raised surfaces to 'get away' with not applying a layer of paint to a miniature, especially when you're in the business of painting miniatures. This isn't a spraying service, this isn't 3 sprays of undercoat, airbrush and out the door, it's several thousand dollars of 'professional painting' and if you think that's only worth a can of black undercoat and a couple of pots of 20 min airbrushing, you're off your rocker mate.
I have posted in the MWG video to correct when he stated I said something that I never said. I dont like people putting words in my mouth especially when the videos are there.
I think the facts are now clear from my statement but I dont think it will matter.
as has been made very clear to me by BTP my opinion is irrelevant and they do so many projects mine was not important.
woah....thanks for posting this stuff guys. Was going to get a quote on a medium sized mid level paint commission from them. I will look somewhere else.
techsoldaten wrote: Just got this message from Miniwargaming. Food for thought about how BTP manages to keep up it's image.
While I respect everyone's right to endorse whatever company they want, I really think they are off-base doing a review like this when members of the wargaming community are getting ripped off. It's not right.
Hey Vault Member!
I'm going to be making a video endorsing BlueTablePainting in the next couple of weeks, as they have done some fantastic work for us (and many, many others).
I'd love to include some testimonials and case studies from MiniWarGaming Vault members who have used BTP in the past.
If you have used BTP, and have had a good experience with them, please email your experience to matthew@miniwargaming.com.
I realize that some people may have had bad experiences (they do a LOT of jobs every month, so obviously there will be customers who wouldn't be happy with their work), but we're only really interested in the positive experiences for this video.
Please understand that we will only be endorsing them because we fully believe that they are a good company worth giving your business to (if you use painting commission studios).
Thanks!
Matthew (and Dave)
Wow. That's messed up.
And regarding the comment from Spencer further up this page - I think I know that guy! We had a going away party for a Spencer here a few years ago, who was moving away to go take a job at Blue Table Painting (doing customer service, not painting). There can't be that many Spencers there, so I bet it's him!
The wargaming community is pretty small... it's unwise of BTP to burn too many bridges here... I'll have to reach out and see how Spencer is doing now.
M0ff3l wrote: however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality.
I think you can objectively say that if ANY primer is showing on a model then it is below par for a tabletop quality model, let alone the level OP paid for. Honestly if I got those models back from a commission I'd be stripping them.
They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that? And its not like BTP is denying that hose are flaws, they are willing to fix it but the op doenst want that?
Black isn't black when it comes to painting miniatures. It has to be an off black for it to look good. Highlighted with another color to make it look real.
Davylove21 wrote: The un-asked for an horribly done OSL is the biggest offence for me. That's how they tried to cover up the shoddy job done.
It's not just that. It's the fact that they completely ignored the requests of the buyer. Not only that, they made it near impossible to make corrections due to their lack of pictures of the finished product. While this may only be one instance, why would anyone feel secure giving BTP thousands of dollars for a commission after this point? Just in case something does go wrong, who wants to possibly deal with being shafted for that much money?
From beginning until end, Shawn has absolutely mismanaged this project. He violated the buyers trust numerous times. Why should tenebre ship anything back to BTP after this violation of trust?
Shawn has shown his inability to properly manage projects, buyer complaints, quality control, and public relations. While they may have been a good service in the past, it is becoming obvious that they are nowhere near the company they used to be.
As per MWG's relation with Shawn... I remember Matt saying on one of his first vlogs that he himself is a mormon. And if you followed BTP long enough you'd know that Shawn's a mormon, too. Add that to the fact that they've worn each others' shirts, seen each other at Shawn's mountain retreat twice a year... They've probably got quite the camaraderie between them.
Well, at least as far as Matt's concerned. Not sure about Dave.
In any case, no one likes drama, so I imagine MWG will be there until the end, and considering how uninvolved the two are in each others' business it's going to be no problem at all for them to just play dumb the entire time, well after BTP's gone out of business, which could actually continue as is for some amount of time. After all, there's a sucker born every minute.
zedsdead wrote: woah....thanks for posting this stuff guys. Was going to get a quote on a medium sized mid level paint commission from them. I will look somewhere else.
MWG's review isn't a review at all, it's an advertising slot.
I really gave this bloke a serious amount of attention and sympathy during the closing of their store and the way he handled it. That's all but evaporated with this bit of snide backscratching. Deleting the OP's comment is further evidence that this is a favor being called in.
Ustrello wrote: Seems like MWG deleted OPs comment on the Valhalla/BTP video
WOW so they can just fabricate words claiming i said them and when called out they delete it? totally legit O.o
for anyone who cares i stated that I never said the army was sent to me accidentally and I also reminded that BTP offered to have GMM repaint but when GMM wanted 150% of the cost, BTP retracted the offer. I was pointing out that the 60% i asked for was a low quote for rework.
I think your comment is still there, it's this one?
Spoiler:
This is not a true statement. I never said that in any communication to anyone. I gave up when I could not get pictures I asked for and I had to keep repeating the exact same requests. BTP wanted GMM to fix the paint but they wanted 150% of the cost so BTP retracted that offer after i accepted. My refund was very reasonable and the lowest price received.
I'd just like to reiterate - this is NOT how a commission studio should do business.
Whilst I'm not currently taking on work (too busy, both with commission work and other stuff) I would very much like the industry to not be damaged by a poor example of a studio making a ballsup of horrendous magnitude in a very public way. And then make a ballsup of handling the ballsup...
GMM's quote really does not seem high for the work - I daresay he's cutting you a deal there.
It makes me sad to see this sort of shennanigans going on, it really does.
BTP still gets commissions because they are still in Business. People know if they send their miniatures to BTP to get painted they will get them back painted. It may not be in a timely manner or to the standard of painting expected but they will get them painted.
There are many examples of a commission studio who just go under ie. Worthy Painting or, just dropping a project because of issues. If you look at the Painting services board on TMP about half of the services have non-operational websites or have just stopped taking commission work.
It is apparent that BTP does not have quite as many commission as they claim because I keep seeing they have painted armies for sale. Where do these artist have time to paint all these armies that are being put up for sale if they are fully booked with commissions? I do painting for myself or to sell on Ebay only if I am currently not doing working on a commission. I have seen quite a few videos of their artists working on their own armies.
The concept of what BTP tries to do is great, it just needs someone who is willing to run it as a business.
Thank you to everyone who has posted about this. While I have no plans to spend money on commission work any time soon its good to know when people act disreputably so consumers can make informed decisions.
Really disappointed at MWG's dismissal of this due to their relationship with BTP.
Lol! Was it not theorized that the Zeppelin caught fire due to it's shoddy paint?* Oh, the inhumani-, er, irony!
*Electrically conductive, maybe? The choice of gas obviously made it spread a bit, too. Huh...a giant volitile gas bag. There is more irony here to be had...
Edit: I leave a 'going over like a lead balloon' analogy to others.
I think to start a thread should be opened up about BTP and all this sketchy dealing and botched paint jobs (also to possibly keep this thread focused), Then I think emails need to be sent to MWG or at least some form of
communication to state that people are displeased- the most voice something the more likley they are to listen or at least move cautiously (especially if people pull subscriptions). Finally yeah I suppose some boycott or
something would work but I think the most effective thing would be to alert as many people as possible to stop new people from falling victim. Isn't the communities job to stop as many victims from occurring as possible?
I think to start a thread should be opened up about BTP and all this sketchy dealing and botched paint jobs (also to possibly keep this thread focused), Then I think emails need to be sent to MWG or at least some form of
communication to state that people are displeased- the most voice something the more likley they are to listen or at least move cautiously (especially if people pull subscriptions). Finally yeah I suppose some boycott or
something would work but I think the most effective thing would be to alert as many people as possible to stop new people from falling victim. Isn't the communities job to stop as many victims from occurring as possible?
Just do something similar to the "Rumour Tracker thread".
Keep a list of reviews for verified (meaning the identity of the owner is proven, with photographs) BTP Projects, and keep a tally, Positive or Negative.
Maybe a more neutral thread may be in order, merely compiling the information for all to see, the first post free of an opinion, instead focusing on just the information, just like with MandelBonderOne.
BrookM wrote: Maybe a more neutral thread may be in order, merely compiling the information for all to see, the first post free of an opinion, instead focusing on just the information, just like with MandelBonderOne.
Like I said, collate all BTP customer reviews good or bad, into one thread.
It's tough to boycott them. I already unsubscribed from MWG a long time ago when the quality dropped, and I was never going to use BTP as I do my own painting.
I really think the only way that MWG takes any action is if enough vault members leave.
BTP just won't care, and will probably make a poor attempt at blaming the review video for lost work.
BrookM wrote: Maybe a more neutral thread may be in order, merely compiling the information for all to see, the first post free of an opinion, instead focusing on just the information, just like with MandelBonderOne.
Like I said, collate all BTP customer reviews good or bad, into one thread.
Well then maybe someone who regularly keeps up with stuff could start the thread in the next bit? I think getting the ball rolling is an important step as long as it is done right. I would also like to see what happens when
stuff comes to light, will it be mostly good, mostly bad? Who knows, but as long as the claims are supported it would be great to see. As for MWG really leaving as a vault member is the only way as I really don't think they
care or are bound by contract (but even that seems dubious as they seem to blindly praise BTP).
I think a general "Commission painter tracking" thread could be of use... completely unofficial, but just seeing the tallies would probably lead someone to make a decent decision.
For example, I don't think I've ever seen someone unhappy with a commission by GMM (perhaps one person, maybe, over years I've been on here?) whereas it pops up with BTP every 6 months or so. And that's just the ones that get a lot of press...
That said, I think it would need to be a neutral thread, and allow good reports as well. And, of course, that means it's open to abuse / falsifying... but, you could require a person to at least say they were the actual one the army was commissioned for, and to post the official pictures that the commission painter gave them, etc.
Sounds like a hell of a lot of work to update and keep track of, though . I have no idea how pretre keeps up with the rumor tracking thread!
Haven't read the entire thread, but BTP attempted to run a KS project, and was not funded, thanks to former employees and the internet community, iirc.
So, yes, these threads *do* have an impact. IMO, It's up to anyone using any sort of crowdfunding or contract service to do their own due diligence. It's up to you to provide the information someone needs to make an educated and informed decision.
You can't boycott a service you were never going to use in the first place. The best you can do is raise awareness and that's it. Blue Table Painting is still the most advertised and known painting service out there; I don't think I can personally recall any other service off the top of my head. Promote good companies and let people know about BTP's reputation when relevant.
MWG won't do anything once light was made of this BTP blunder. Perhaps Corvus Belli may have a different opinion?
However, let's not have some internet vigilantism campaign that ends up sabotaging Tenebre's impending legal matters.
It seems nowadays that people would prefer to one side suffer rather than see the wronged side get proper compensation.
Best thing that is possible is just tell people to go else where. People are smart enough to shop around. Boycotts do nothing and they do present hostility that can be used against others such as Tenebre.
youtuber wrote: I think its a little odd to just dismiss bad reviews of a company, even if they are large one.
Sure, a company as it grows is naturally going have more feedback. This means its both going have positive and negative reviews. But, that's why its good to look at these reviews and critics, so someone can judge for themselves if s/he should use the services.
That being said, they have been some serious issues that I have seen with BTP. A major one that comes to mind was the work Movie Mayhem has them do with his 9000 points of Chaos Dwarfs. Its well documented over two videos of his, in which primer is showing, paint level is definitely not there, simple dry brushing, simply not being able to respond with simple request, among other things.
I suggest watching Movie Mayhem videos at least. Since even the aftermath of what happen after he got the miniatures back, BTP seems to drop the ball as well.
Miniwargaming wrote: That's still anecdotal evidence, or one well documented case. What it comes down to is that BTP does a LOT of commissions on a regular basis, so of course there will be more people not happy than the next guy who does a handful per year.
All I can say is that I've been very happy with the work they've done for us, and I have seen their business from the inside out, so I know what systems they have in place to protect your miniatures and get the job done well.
To which I replied:
Hey, Miniwargaming, remember that priceless titan? Haha, yeah, anecdotal evidence.
Blue table themselves described it as priceless. In return they gave some cruddy foamcore terrain that had been outlined in what appears to be sharpie. So, 20$ at best for a titan worth 800$+. Shawn is a used cars salesman in the wargaming world, his company is sketchy, and he's a thief. Spencer has even come out of the woodwork to say he would have to keep models that the company was painting so Shawn wouldn't randomly sell them. But, hey. It's okay you support them, I'm sure you have background deals going on.
Any regret I had with cancelling my vault membership is gone.
Edit: Enjoy all of the subs you are losing.
Oh and look what someone else wrote above me:
This is unacceptable, any regret I might have had about cancelling my vault membership has been quashed.
Here is the video in question with the comment train:
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
They are free to express their opinion, they aren't free of any consequences for expressing that opinion.
Decisions have consequences.
Dont you find it a little sad that when a company that has used BTP many times and is happy with their work sides with them for their own reason, suddendly this makes them the bad guy too? In my opinion people are blowing this whole thing waaaay out of proportion, and it just decreases my faith in the community even more.
That said, Im about to place an 800$ painting order on BTP and I know for sure I wont regret it. So have fun talking some more smack while I watch some more MWG and BTP vids, cya guys
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
They are free to express their opinion, they aren't free of any consequences for expressing that opinion.
Decisions have consequences.
Dont you find it a little sad that when a company that has used BTP many times and is happy with their work sides with them for their own reason, suddendly this makes them the bad guy too? In my opinion people are blowing this whole thing waaaay out of proportion, and it just decreases my faith in the community even more.
That said, Im about to place an 800$ painting order on BTP and I know for sure I wont regret it. So have fun talking some more smack while I watch some more MWG and BTP vids, cya guys
If you could only keep your commentary about the posters on Dakka Dakka to be completely positive we'd really appreciate it.
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
They are free to express their opinion, they aren't free of any consequences for expressing that opinion.
Decisions have consequences.
Dont you find it a little sad that when a company that has used BTP many times and is happy with their work sides with them for their own reason, suddendly this makes them the bad guy too? In my opinion people are blowing this whole thing waaaay out of proportion, and it just decreases my faith in the community even more.
That said, Im about to place an 800$ painting order on BTP and I know for sure I wont regret it. So have fun talking some more smack while I watch some more MWG and BTP vids, cya guys
Perhaps you could post pictures to show the good side of the business?
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
They are free to express their opinion, they aren't free of any consequences for expressing that opinion.
Decisions have consequences.
Dont you find it a little sad that when a company that has used BTP many times and is happy with their work sides with them for their own reason, suddendly this makes them the bad guy too? In my opinion people are blowing this whole thing waaaay out of proportion, and it just decreases my faith in the community even more.
That said, Im about to place an 800$ painting order on BTP and I know for sure I wont regret it. So have fun talking some more smack while I watch some more MWG and BTP vids, cya guys
Have fun, you're playing Russian roulette with your models.
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
No, they are doing it because MWG are asking for proof to back up their own opinion and very blatantly saying that they know contradictory evidence exists but they don't want to see it.
They are then presenting that evidence through their media outlet, which is highly unethical.
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
No, they are doing it because MWG are asking for proof to back up their own opinion and very blatantly saying that they know contradictory evidence exists but they don't want to see it.
They are then presenting that evidence through their media outlet, which is highly unethical.
Also asking vault members to present all thoughts about this in a positive manner...
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
They are free to express their opinion, they aren't free of any consequences for expressing that opinion.
Decisions have consequences.
That said, Im about to place an 800$ painting order on BTP and I know for sure I wont regret it. So have fun talking some more smack while I watch some more MWG and BTP vids, cya guys
I genuinely hope you don't end up regretting it. Either way post the results on Dakka. That way people can make informed choices.
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
They are free to express their opinion, they aren't free of any consequences for expressing that opinion.
Decisions have consequences.
Dont you find it a little sad that when a company that has used BTP many times and is happy with their work sides with them for their own reason, suddendly this makes them the bad guy too? In my opinion people are blowing this whole thing waaaay out of proportion, and it just decreases my faith in the community even more.
That said, Im about to place an 800$ painting order on BTP and I know for sure I wont regret it. So have fun talking some more smack while I watch some more MWG and BTP vids, cya guys
If you could only keep your commentary about the posters on Dakka Dakka to be completely positive we'd really appreciate it.
Signed
The MWG way of thinking.
I got a good laugh at this, +1 from me.
Back to the addressed point. It is not like BTP doesn't ever do a good job, but that's the same as me saying when I go to a horse race #4 doesn't always loose. Right now things may be a bit foggy but honestly when you send your minis to a place they
should have a 95%+ satisfaction rate (really for a customer service place it should be 99.9% because that is all you do. It will never be perfect because some people will never be happy. But with BTP I suspect the botched rate may be at 20-30%. I wouldn't
pay a lot of money on odds like that, unless I am at the race track, in which case, that's pretty good odds.
M0ff3l wrote: That said, Im about to place an 800$ painting order on BTP and I know for sure I wont regret it. So have fun talking some more smack while I watch some more MWG and BTP vids, cya guys
Would you be more specific in what your order entails? Also would you please show us how the project is going (after being started of course) and how the project looks at completion? I am genuinely interested in seeing if BTP comes through for you or not.
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
No, they are doing it because MWG are asking for proof to back up their own opinion and very blatantly saying that they know contradictory evidence exists but they don't want to see it.
They are then presenting that evidence through their media outlet, which is highly unethical.
Also asking vault members to present all thoughts about this in a positive manner...
Oh god really?
Yeah, see, this is why people are criticizing them. Not for their opinion but for trying to push it on others without listening to the evidence contradicting it or knowing that evidence is there and trying to hide it.
Just wanted to post this here. I posted the video on Facebook and got this back:
Muck-raking scum. You disgust me trying to drag a company's name through the mud like this, just to make yourself feel big. Do you have any idea how many satisfied customers BTP have? How many fantastic commissions they've completed? Do you know how Shawn has built that company up from nothing to a huge organisation employing over a dozen full-time artists and putting food on people's tables, letting them live their dream? No. You don't care. You just want to sensationalise one sub-par project out of thousands and slag it off to make yourself feel superior. Pathetic. I'd love to see you complete thousands of awesome projects and not have a single one slip through the quality control net. But you couldn't, could you? All you can do is hate and criticise.
M0ff3l wrote: So people are now punishing MWG for having their own opinion and not agreeing with them? wow.
They are free to express their opinion, they aren't free of any consequences for expressing that opinion.
Decisions have consequences.
Dont you find it a little sad that when a company that has used BTP many times and is happy with their work sides with them for their own reason, suddendly this makes them the bad guy too? In my opinion people are blowing this whole thing waaaay out of proportion, and it just decreases my faith in the community even more.
That said, Im about to place an 800$ painting order on BTP and I know for sure I wont regret it. So have fun talking some more smack while I watch some more MWG and BTP vids, cya guys
swampyturtle wrote: Just wanted to post this here. I posted the video on Facebook and got this back:
Muck-raking scum. You disgust me trying to drag a company's name through the mud like this, just to make yourself feel big. Do you have any idea how many satisfied customers BTP have? How many fantastic commissions they've completed? Do you know how Shawn has built that company up from nothing to a huge organisation employing over a dozen full-time artists and putting food on people's tables, letting them live their dream? No. You don't care. You just want to sensationalise one sub-par project out of thousands and slag it off to make yourself feel superior. Pathetic. I'd love to see you complete thousands of awesome projects and not have a single one slip through the quality control net. But you couldn't, could you? All you can do is hate and criticise.
Wait, was this from BTP or just an anonymous Facebook?
swampyturtle wrote: Just wanted to post this here. I posted the video on Facebook and got this back:
Muck-raking scum. You disgust me trying to drag a company's name through the mud like this, just to make yourself feel big. Do you have any idea how many satisfied customers BTP have? How many fantastic commissions they've completed? Do you know how Shawn has built that company up from nothing to a huge organisation employing over a dozen full-time artists and putting food on people's tables, letting them live their dream? No. You don't care. You just want to sensationalise one sub-par project out of thousands and slag it off to make yourself feel superior. Pathetic. I'd love to see you complete thousands of awesome projects and not have a single one slip through the quality control net. But you couldn't, could you? All you can do is hate and criticise.
I saw you posting this on several facebook pages. You didn't actually say anything negative (or positive) about the company. All you did was present the video link. People can make their own decision from there.
swampyturtle wrote: Just wanted to post this here. I posted the video on Facebook and got this back:
Muck-raking scum. You disgust me trying to drag a company's name through the mud like this, just to make yourself feel big. Do you have any idea how many satisfied customers BTP have? How many fantastic commissions they've completed? Do you know how Shawn has built that company up from nothing to a huge organisation employing over a dozen full-time artists and putting food on people's tables, letting them live their dream? No. You don't care. You just want to sensationalise one sub-par project out of thousands and slag it off to make yourself feel superior. Pathetic. I'd love to see you complete thousands of awesome projects and not have a single one slip through the quality control net. But you couldn't, could you? All you can do is hate and criticise.
I saw you posting this on several facebook pages. You didn't actually say anything negative (or positive) about the company. All you did was present the video link. People can make their own decision from there.
Im not there to judge one way or another. Just to present the video link. Thats all. I have no part in this.
swampyturtle wrote: Just wanted to post this here. I posted the video on Facebook and got this back:
Muck-raking scum. You disgust me trying to drag a company's name through the mud like this, just to make yourself feel big. Do you have any idea how many satisfied customers BTP have? How many fantastic commissions they've completed? Do you know how Shawn has built that company up from nothing to a huge organisation employing over a dozen full-time artists and putting food on people's tables, letting them live their dream? No. You don't care. You just want to sensationalise one sub-par project out of thousands and slag it off to make yourself feel superior. Pathetic. I'd love to see you complete thousands of awesome projects and not have a single one slip through the quality control net. But you couldn't, could you? All you can do is hate and criticise.
Most artists I know dream of much more than assembly line painting and putting food on the table. If anything, this is a sad fate for the people who ended up working at BTP.
Funny thing is, most of this would go away if Shawn was willing to do whatever he could do to satisfy the customer. If the requested refund is to much, why not at least make a counter offer? Why ignore this all and hope it goes away? Why enter into costly litigation, which tenebre seems well on his way to bringing forward.
BTP may have thousands of satisfied customers, but who wants to take the risk of not being satisfied? The message is clear. "You will like what we give you, or you won't. It doesn't matter once we have your money".
What a nightmare for both the business, and the customer.
I think perhaps one of the most terrifying aspects of this is that they seem to have ignored the look the OP asked for in favour of the OSL lava and then actually listed 'just his opinion' as a response to his criticism.
He's the bloody customer. If nothing else about this where newsworthy that fact should still be held up to warn people away.
They apparently have a mentality of thinking X is cool so painting the customers models X way even though he asked for Y.
swampyturtle wrote: Just wanted to post this here. I posted the video on Facebook and got this back:
Muck-raking scum. You disgust me trying to drag a company's name through the mud like this, just to make yourself feel big. Do you have any idea how many satisfied customers BTP have? How many fantastic commissions they've completed? Do you know how Shawn has built that company up from nothing to a huge organisation employing over a dozen full-time artists and putting food on people's tables, letting them live their dream? No. You don't care. You just want to sensationalise one sub-par project out of thousands and slag it off to make yourself feel superior. Pathetic. I'd love to see you complete thousands of awesome projects and not have a single one slip through the quality control net. But you couldn't, could you? All you can do is hate and criticise.
Typical fanatic reply. BTW ha a such a massive following that this is what is expected. Feel the same thing is gonna happen now that MWG is only looking for positive reviews. I don't see MWG doing anything wrong supporting a sponsor or vice versa from their pov. This isn't like yelp or a Google review where you can't stop a negative from posting. Both companies are treating this as something so minor due to the history BTP has and that's what they do. This isn't like Kobe losing his endorsements when he has been accused of rape or Tiger losing his with his divorce. Fanatics will defend anyone and even if they are guilty go all out regardless. Almost goes so far to call it brain washing and cult like.
jonolikespie wrote: I think perhaps one of the most terrifying aspects of this is that they seem to have ignored the look the OP asked for in favour of the OSL lava and then actually listed 'just his opinion' as a response to his criticism.
He's the bloody customer. If nothing else about this where newsworthy that fact should still be held up to warn people away.
They apparently have a mentality of thinking X is cool so painting the customers models X way even though he asked for Y.
I have to agree. This is a very salient point that hasn't had much attention.
The OP asked for 'gore to rival a SAW film', and instead got lava bases with OSL.
Regardless of the implementation of the OSL, it's not that the OP wanted. That alone should be grounds for a full refund.
Read through 20 pages, watched the videos, finally had a chance to post my thoughts. First of all, I'd never use BTP because I like to paint my own stuff. If I don't paint it, it doesn't get painted. Happens a lot. That said, from what I saw in the video, I liked most of it. I thought it was pretty good-hell, around par of how I do myself (I show some primer, no biggie to me). I even liked the OSL, and think it looks cooler than how the blood and gore sounded. But that's not the point. The customer asked for something. He was ignored. Again and again. BTP screwed up by not providing the customer what was asked for. That's the big no-no to me. The scheme looks great. The pink feet that got missed are less great (okay, awful), and the attitude of "we think your way was bad, so we did it our way. Deal with it" is a kick in the junk. Their attitude is bad, and if I have friends getting painting services, I'll definitely recommend they look elsewhere.
jonolikespie wrote: I think perhaps one of the most terrifying aspects of this is that they seem to have ignored the look the OP asked for in favour of the OSL lava and then actually listed 'just his opinion' as a response to his criticism.
He's the bloody customer. If nothing else about this where newsworthy that fact should still be held up to warn people away.
They apparently have a mentality of thinking X is cool so painting the customers models X way even though he asked for Y.
Yeah, it's like if you were getting your car painted and said "Ok, I want it navy blue with white pin stripes"
The car comes back with crazy airbrushed flames....and somehow it's your fault when you get upset about it.
jonolikespie wrote: I think perhaps one of the most terrifying aspects of this is that they seem to have ignored the look the OP asked for in favour of the OSL lava and then actually listed 'just his opinion' as a response to his criticism.
He's the bloody customer. If nothing else about this where newsworthy that fact should still be held up to warn people away.
They apparently have a mentality of thinking X is cool so painting the customers models X way even though he asked for Y.
Yeah, it's like if you were getting your car painted and said "Ok, I want it navy blue with white pin stripes"
The car comes back with crazy airbrushed flames....and somehow it's your fault when you get upset about it.
It's more like crazy airbrushed flames over a few parts but the majority of the car only getting a light dusting with a spray can resulting in the grey primer showing through in alot of spots.
While I enjoy painting, I know by around the 50th model I'll be wondering "why in the hell am I doing this to myself?" and my motivation/interest/joy will be gone.
I'm sure you don't want to be in Iowa as winter rolls around anyway 
)...
