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 Absolutionis wrote:
...butt are contractually obligated to take sides because of their dealings with BTP.

Do you really think so? Contracted to take sides, I mean. Feeling obliged, sure. But staying mum, while awkward, shouldn't breach any written agreements...I assume. The third possibility, public dissention with a partner, obviously is unlikely.

 Eilif wrote:
For all the outrage against MWG and BTP, has no one tried to gather a list of folks BTP has screwed? So far, I've heard a couple folks say they were, but mostly, it's "My friend was unhappy", "This person can't make a video or is afraid to".

Focusing on just one documented case -even one as totally egregious as this one- is not going to really hit BTP or make MWG break ties with a company that seems to give them free (or reduced) painting services and possibly also lodging and space at BTP conventions.

You all are in the right, but if you want to make a difference, you've got to cast a wider net and catch something to show for it.

I think this is really important to build on, could someone give maybe start up a new thread collecting info on botched BTP jobs, as well as general problems faced by customers of BTP. A lot of the white-knights for BTP or

whoever, are just going to say "its just a few jobs" but if enough people posts problems it goes from just a few to a serious problem that no one can deny in which case places like MWG and CB have to take seriously.

Even if they are contracted to not say things about BTP, there is nothing stopping them from renewing their contract with them when it does expire. At least bring a full, developed case to their face and make them realize it.

The community deserves better!

Received this email from BTP today:

On Nov 1, 2014, at 21:30, Shawn Gately <projects@bluetablepainting.com> wrote:

Hello Grix!

Just a friendly check in on your Warhammer Fantasy project, or whatever you may be dreaming up. Did I give you enough information? Do you need advice about anything? I can also schedule a consultation by either phone or Skype for you with myself or Steve in inquires.

What can I do for you?

We are ready just as soon as you are.

You can see our what's up at BTP here:
Blog...

Sent them this reply

Im sorry having read some of the threads about the Chaos Dwarf debacle I do not feel safe placing an order.

Thanks

Well see if they reply. At least they know that this issue lost them a customer...

*Grabs popcorn*

 Coldwill wrote:
*Grabs popcorn*

Joins in *The sound of popcorn intensifies*

I doubt they'll reply to that. But just in case..

 neal1975 wrote:
Did you guys see this vid yet on youtube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlpRxOxJdK8
It is basically a commentary on tenebres video, but . . . a few comments down there is a absolute torpedo of a post from SPENCER who worked there for two years.
This is a nuclear bomb of a detailed post that shows you , FROM AN INSIDER, how much of a FRAUD and a CON ARTIST gately really is.

Everyone in the gaming industry should avoid this company like they would avoid the ebola virus

Quote from spencers post:

"I spent two years working at BTP until, very recently, being let go for disagreeing with Shawn and trying ti make his company money. So I want to address a few things about this situation because you covered it quite well.

1) The BTP way of painting is to get it done as quickly as possible(ironically sometimes) so quality control gets pushed aside pretty often. More often than not when a project gets behind(due to some really dumb ways of using money) Shawn will just demand it gets churned out ASAP regardless. I'd seen projects where people paid thousands of dollars for armies and stuff that even I, as a gakky painter with next to no skill, would have picked out was left untouched because "oh that's not part of that level." Entire weapons with nothing more than a simple drybrush of grey over black in a few spots would be called painted.

2) Shawn has zero ethics. He believes that he should be able to do whatever he wants, how he wants with no interference from anyone. He seriously asked our state representative when he came to visit(some bs about empowering local companies blah blah) if he would consider lowering the legal working age to 12 so he could have his kids be legally employed at his company. He believes himself entirely in the right all the time. The Dropzone Commander "studio" armies that were basically given to him for free by Dave Lewis he was trying to sell. He tried to have me sell painted Heavy Gear models to Dream Pod 9. Every model that was sent to the studio due to my work I took with me when I left because otherwise he would try and sell them despite being given to the studio as signs of good faith or for reviews and such. He once described an idea he got from a company that was a total pyramid scheme, and he thought we should implement something like it. He has some "business mentor" who's a total con-artist and feeds him bs and lies on a regular basis. He listens to motivational speeches from people who don't give two gaks about the people listening, so long as they give them money. He believes being manipulative, scheming and acting like a scam artist is the best thing for his company.

3) He will never, ever, empower someone else in that company. You may recall a chap by the name of Rob who was COO of BTP for a bit. He then, financially, fethed the company over hard. During slumps he was giving himself massive pay raises while trying to find the best way to cut everyone else's pay. Rob's actions have scarred Shawn to the point where, even though it would greatly help his company, he will never entrust someone else to run the show again. Shawn running things means he can get away with whatever he wants, and that's exactly how he likes it. Shannon should, by all means, be running that business, but because he got burned Shawn will never trust anyone with BTP; even if they are the better choice.

4)You're absolutely right that Shawn doesn't care about what the customer thinks. He thinks he knows everything there is, and yet he doesn't even know how to produce quality video content for his own YouTube channel because editing and HD "takes too long to upload." He thinks he knows everything about the industry, but he's totally oblivious to how much the gaming industry has changed in the last five to ten years. To him the customer is just a walking wallet.

And it's all a real shame too because, in the right hands, BTP could be a great company in the industry. But its so poorly run and the people who could make things better are basically scared into submission because, as I'm an example to it, Shawn will fire you if you don't bend to his every whim every second. If he suggests an idea that's completely slowed and makes no sense saying "I think we should do this other thing that we've done before and is proven to make money" instantly puts you on the Shawn Gately gak list. It's a sad state, and he'll tank that company. Worst part is; it won't be the first time."

This is great stuff. Maybe Spencer might be willing to help if Tenebre reaches that point in the legal work.

The video was decent, coming from someone that was on the original boycott bandwagon when it was Titan for Terrain. Sustainable Center used to be TonyponyF if i am correct. Good on him offering a non-biased opinion this time around.

As per MWG, Long ago I realized that they aren't all that to which people gave them credit for. Back when it was a club it was cool beans, when they had the store, was good for a time. I haven't watched a Video in a good couple years of theirs because they became the opposite of what it originally was. Much to what Spencer said about BTP being a shell of its former self.

lastly, I think its past the popcorn stage, better get the hot dogs and brats for roasting now

 Physh wrote:
This is great stuff. Maybe Spencer might be willing to help if Tenebre reaches that point in the legal work.

The video was decent, coming from someone that was on the original boycott bandwagon when it was Titan for Terrain. Sustainable Center used to be TonyponyF if i am correct. Good on him offering a non-biased opinion this time around.

That would be amazing but, I thought Ten was against a legal claim at this point? Correct me if I'm wrong though?

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) Not at all. The model is collateral for the work. If you aren't paid, you keep the collateral. Its best if you put it in writing, but its not totally necessary. Asking for a cash deposit on top of everything is a bad faith gesture.

2) It is if you include the price of the model itself. The paint work will be discounted, but you will make the price of the model as profit. Thats working with the assumption that you didn't also pay for the model. in which case that is to only cash I would condone asking for upfront. Basically the client either mails you the model OR send you the retail price of the model and asks you to purchase it for them. That way, you're never out for anything other than the paint and time. SO when you sell it for price of model+75% of the paint work, the model's cost is basically profit.

3) Well duh. But when you break down painting to hourly, its not a bad hourly job.

1. Ok, if you say so. I assumed it worked like a car over here, where a mechanic doesn't have to return your car (and can charge you storage fees) but they can't just turn around and sell it.

2. I still think you overestimate how much table top quality sells for. For a table top quality model, I doubt you'll sell it for much more than the base model is worth. The Chaos Dwarf infantry is only $6USD per model, that's not going to cover the time it took you to paint it. Some more expensive models you might get away with, Bull Centaurs are $32 each, so you might sell them for as much as you would have gotten for the commission. Most things I doubt you'd make back how much you were planning on getting off commission painting them.

3. My entire point was that it WAS a bad hourly pay You said you could do better at half the price, that kind of means you'd do better if you only spent an hour on each model, which I think is stretching it a bit once you include the time it takes to clean/assemble/base/prime the models.

I think I have done my part, and sent a mail to MWG with what I think about this whole thing. And I highly suggest the rest of you do as well. BTP is the villain here. Help MWG recognize which side is the light side and which is the dark.

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
I think I have done my part, and sent a mail to MWG with what I think about this whole thing. And I highly suggest the rest of you do as well. BTP is the villain here. Help MWG recognize which side is the light side and which is the dark.

Why is your opinion right and theirs wrong? Who are you to decide what they have to think?

I don't know how in God's name could you take all this info in and still think that BTP did this guy right in the end.

you remind me strongly of Stalin.
When he got the message that Russia was invaded by the Germans he asked

" Does Mr Hitler know about this"?

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
I think I have done my part, and sent a mail to MWG with what I think about this whole thing. And I highly suggest the rest of you do as well. BTP is the villain here. Help MWG recognize which side is the light side and which is the dark.

Why is your opinion right and theirs wrong? Who are you to decide what they have to think?

Do you even see what you write?
I never said my opinion was right and theirs was wrong. "with what -> I <- think" clearly states that this is how I feel about it.

Who am I to say what I feel is right or wrong? I am a member of the community, I have a voice and the right to believe as I wish to believe. Who are you sir, to say I am not allowed think as I think?

At no point did I tell people what to say either. I urged people to tell MWG what they felt.

text removed. Don't make comments like this on Dakka. Reds8n

"Help MWG recognize which side is the light side and which is the dark". Your opinion on the "light side and the dark side" is your opinion, they dont have to share this opinion, you do not have to send them any emails about what you think, because they do not care. If MWG stated their opinion on BTP you dont have to mail them to tell them who is the villain here, they can decide that for themselves.

Also you ask me if I even see what I write yet you make up accusations out of thin air, I never told you you are not allowed to think, I just said that you cannot decide what MWG should think. And I never said anything about telling people what to say. In my post "they" was a reference to MWG.

Also I'm not siding with BTP on this issue, however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality. Also why not send them back to BTP to let them fix things? Yes you send them 3 emails on what to do and they didnt do it, but do you really think that if you send them again they will just do nothing and ship them back to you? Now that they have an exact list of what there is to fix they can fix it and be done with the issue. But nooooo you cant send them back to evil BTP because what? Do you honestly think they will sell your army if you send it back for touch up work? Seriously grow up and handle this like an adult would.

 M0ff3l wrote:
however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality.

I think you can objectively say that if ANY primer is showing on a model then it is below par for a tabletop quality model, let alone the level OP paid for. Honestly if I got those models back from a commission I'd be stripping them.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality.

I think you can objectively say that if ANY primer is showing on a model then it is below par for a tabletop quality model, let alone the level OP paid for. Honestly if I got those models back from a commission I'd be stripping them.

They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that? And its not like BTP is denying that hose are flaws, they are willing to fix it but the op doenst want that?

 M0ff3l wrote:


Also I'm not siding with BTP on this issue, however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality. Also why not send them back to BTP to let them fix things? Yes you send them 3 emails on what to do and they didnt do it, but do you really think that if you send them again they will just do nothing and ship them back to you? Now that they have an exact list of what there is to fix they can fix it and be done with the issue. But nooooo you cant send them back to evil BTP because what? Do you honestly think they will sell your army if you send it back for touch up work? Seriously grow up and handle this like an adult would.

No. The work done is appalling. Take that as a professional opinion. Even for a very low target spec the work is BAD.

The reason not to send stuff back is that the service has demonstrated it either cannot or will not work to spec. It is a broken trust.

I doubt there is fear that the army would be sold. More that the work simply will still not be done to spec.

In terms of the discount, the figure was arrived at based on BTPs own pricing structure and descriptions of quality level (a concept I despises at root).

 M0ff3l wrote:
They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that?

YES!

The paint and primer have different textures and reflect light differently. At level 4 and 6, I'd expect the black not only painted, but also at least partially highlighted into a grey or blue.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that?

YES!

The paint and primer have different textures and reflect light differently. At level 4 and 6, I'd expect the black not only painted, but also at least partially highlighted into a grey or blue.

Exactly. At that level it should not be black, it should be very subtle off blacks with only a pure black in the very darkest recesses of the shadows. The bulk of the black maybe something with a tiny dot if red mixed in to tie it in with the rest of the scheme, or a turquoise to contrast it. That should then show up a little more as it is highlighted.

At this level painting black as a single flat colour is unacceptable.

*Edit*
Coolmini had an example I thought I'd share. This is a quality black.

 Coldwill wrote:

 Physh wrote:
This is great stuff. Maybe Spencer might be willing to help if Tenebre reaches that point in the legal work.

The video was decent, coming from someone that was on the original boycott bandwagon when it was Titan for Terrain. Sustainable Center used to be TonyponyF if i am correct. Good on him offering a non-biased opinion this time around.

That would be amazing but, I thought Ten was against a legal claim at this point? Correct me if I'm wrong though?

Quite the opposite.

Also for those that "think" they want to fix it. BTP said they will NOT fix the OSL because its only my opinion that it looks bad and they do not agree. 60% was the lowest quote i received to repair the figures (I sent it to BTP as well)

When i could not get a photo of the bale taurus face for 10 days (i r3eceived one of his back side when i asked and even that took 7 days) There is simply no way for this process to work.

they had 3 chances over more than a month to fix these issues and simply did not and since you cant get pictures there is no way to tell. And please remember In order for them to repaint i STILL have to remove the video before they would do it.

I simply highlighted the black primer on my jump pack chaplain and I still regret how flat it looks to this day. It's not unreasonable to expect it to be painted or at the very least highlighted.

 M0ff3l wrote:

They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that? And its not like BTP is denying that hose are flaws, they are willing to fix it but the op doenst want that?

You're portraying this as though the op hasn't already afforded blue table considerable leeway with time and correspondence to fix the issues. The army in the video is the end result of numerous communications and 'fixes' and it's still gak.

And yes you do paint over black undercoat with paint. You don't leave undercoat exposed on raised surfaces to 'get away' with not applying a layer of paint to a miniature, especially when you're in the business of painting miniatures. This isn't a spraying service, this isn't 3 sprays of undercoat, airbrush and out the door, it's several thousand dollars of 'professional painting' and if you think that's only worth a can of black undercoat and a couple of pots of 20 min airbrushing, you're off your rocker mate.

I have posted in the MWG video to correct when he stated I said something that I never said. I dont like people putting words in my mouth especially when the videos are there.

I think the facts are now clear from my statement but I dont think it will matter.

as has been made very clear to me by BTP my opinion is irrelevant and they do so many projects mine was not important.

There's no way they do THAT many projects that are similar to yours in scope or cost, is there?

At this point, they appear to have dug in their heels.

You know what you should do next, and I wish you luck!

 Alpharius wrote:
There's no way they do THAT many projects that are similar to yours in scope or cost, is there?

At this point, they appear to have dug in their heels.

You know what you should do next, and I wish you luck!

Already on that. just takes time.

And while i thought my army wasnt super big, I have been told otherwise. appreciate all the support once again from you all.

woah....thanks for posting this stuff guys. Was going to get a quote on a medium sized mid level paint commission from them. I will look somewhere else.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Just got this message from Miniwargaming. Food for thought about how BTP manages to keep up it's image.

While I respect everyone's right to endorse whatever company they want, I really think they are off-base doing a review like this when members of the wargaming community are getting ripped off. It's not right.

Hey Vault Member!

I'm going to be making a video endorsing BlueTablePainting in the next couple of weeks, as they have done some fantastic work for us (and many, many others).

I'd love to include some testimonials and case studies from MiniWarGaming Vault members who have used BTP in the past.

If you have used BTP, and have had a good experience with them, please email your experience to matthew@miniwargaming.com.

I realize that some people may have had bad experiences (they do a LOT of jobs every month, so obviously there will be customers who wouldn't be happy with their work), but we're only really interested in the positive experiences for this video.

Please understand that we will only be endorsing them because we fully believe that they are a good company worth giving your business to (if you use painting commission studios).

Thanks!

Matthew (and Dave)

Wow. That's messed up.

And regarding the comment from Spencer further up this page - I think I know that guy! We had a going away party for a Spencer here a few years ago, who was moving away to go take a job at Blue Table Painting (doing customer service, not painting). There can't be that many Spencers there, so I bet it's him!

The wargaming community is pretty small... it's unwise of BTP to burn too many bridges here... I'll have to reach out and see how Spencer is doing now.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
however I feel like the OP is not working with BTP the way they want to. Asking 60% as a refund is way too much, yes the models were not finished, but still the work that is on them is still very good quality.

I think you can objectively say that if ANY primer is showing on a model then it is below par for a tabletop quality model, let alone the level OP paid for. Honestly if I got those models back from a commission I'd be stripping them.

They thought the client wanted black as one of the main colors. If you paint a model black do you prime it black and then paint black over that? And its not like BTP is denying that hose are flaws, they are willing to fix it but the op doenst want that?

Black isn't black when it comes to painting miniatures. It has to be an off black for it to look good. Highlighted with another color to make it look real.

The un-asked for an horribly done OSL is the biggest offence for me. That's how they tried to cover up the shoddy job done.