Instead of all the skepticism and victim shaming, let's let the models speak for themselves when the repaint is done.
It really doesn't matter what Shawn has done with the money, the the real crime here is the paint job BTP did on those models. I won't rest until I know each and every one of them looks like something that's worthy of a tabletop.
I am going to bow out of this discussion.
We clearly have differing standards on critical thinking and rationality. That is an issue we can work with and discuss.
But some things will stop a conversion dead......and here it is;
This childish and intellectually vapid accusation is the perfect way to derail a conversation.
You, sir, should be ashamed of your self.
I have gone out of my way to ensure my position regarding tenebre is perfectly clear. Anybody who sees any kind of victim blaming must have either reading comprehension issues or suffer from an extreme case of intellectual dishonesty.
Tenebre, I wish with all my being that you get this issue resolved (both legally and in regard to enjoying your army), and I look forward to seeing it beautifully painted.
Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.
It most certainly will not. If any further and deviant work done is based on the information provided in addition to the original spec, it is no longer a fair comparison of results.
I Think you are entirely wrong here. The commission process includes getting enough information from the client to ascertain what they want. If anything, the new companies ability to more closely match the clients wishes is further testiment to the shoddy procedures blue table actually have in place.
A painting service is not just about painting minis, it is about turning a clients ideas into reality. Aside from the painting quality itself, I would suggest it is here where the biggest failings have come from BTP, and the extra communication is not 'in addition' to blue tabvles, but more what they should have done in the first place.
Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.
It most certainly will not. If any further and deviant work done is based on the information provided in addition to the original spec, it is no longer a fair comparison of results.
I Think you are entirely wrong here. The commission process includes getting enough information from the client to ascertain what they want. If anything, the new companies ability to more closely match the clients wishes is further testiment to the shoddy procedures blue table actually have in place.
A painting service is not just about painting minis, it is about turning a clients ideas into reality. Aside from the painting quality itself, I would suggest it is here where the biggest failings have come from BTP, and the extra communication is not 'in addition' to blue tabvles, but more what they should have done in the first place.
Incorrect. Given that the original spec has again been provided any further or deviant work from it will be irrelevant.
It most certainly will not. If any further and deviant work done is based on the information provided in addition to the original spec, it is no longer a fair comparison of results.
I Think you are entirely wrong here. The commission process includes getting enough information from the client to ascertain what they want. If anything, the new companies ability to more closely match the clients wishes is further testiment to the shoddy procedures blue table actually have in place.
A painting service is not just about painting minis, it is about turning a clients ideas into reality. Aside from the painting quality itself, I would suggest it is here where the biggest failings have come from BTP, and the extra communication is not 'in addition' to blue tabvles, but more what they should have done in the first place.
My guess is that the painting service that OP is working with now might be smaller than BTP, projects per month wise. Id imagine it takes significantly longer if the artist had to call the client for every unit. For example if the client wasnt able to pick up they would have to put that entire project on hold. So probably the way BTP works is purely for efficiency reasons, you give them detailed instructions, they try to match those, fast and efficient. But it can lead to problems like the ones the OP is having.
Volume is relative. No painting service should EVER be able to use the excuse of "we're swamped" if they let quality slip. They shouldn't take more than they can handle. They can tell someone they'll need to wait as they're too busy.
Especially on their premium jobs, of which there won't be many. You get a premium job, you give a premium service. And honestly, the painter should be the one to talk to the client. He's currently giving his undivided attention to the project, a 5 minute phone call and/or e-mail is so easy there is no excuse not to do it. Heck you could do a freaking Skype call and show your progress directly.
Grey Templar wrote: Volume is relative. No painting service should EVER be able to use the excuse of "we're swamped" if they let quality slip.
Especially on their premium jobs, of which there won't be many. You get a premium job, you give a premium service. And honestly, the painter should be the one to talk to the client. He's currently giving his undivided attention to the project, a 5 minute phone call and/or e-mail is so easy there is no excuse not to do it. Heck you could do a freaking Skype call and show your progress directly.
This.
No other business gets away with cutting quality because "we're busy" so why are you so eager to give BTP slack for it?
Grey Templar wrote: Volume is relative. No painting service should EVER be able to use the excuse of "we're swamped" if they let quality slip. They shouldn't take more than they can handle. They can tell someone they'll need to wait as they're too busy.
Especially on their premium jobs, of which there won't be many. You get a premium job, you give a premium service. And honestly, the painter should be the one to talk to the client. He's currently giving his undivided attention to the project, a 5 minute phone call and/or e-mail is so easy there is no excuse not to do it. Heck you could do a freaking Skype call and show your progress directly.
I remember a BTP vid were an artist was in a skype call with the client showing him his tau manta. Dont know if they switched from doing that or if they just didnt with OP.
EDIT: Im not trying to cut BTP slack, I just think its not fair comparing someone who probably is working on only the OPs army at the moment to a company that does 10+ projects a month. Ofcourse they are going to have different approaches and you cant expect a "huge" company to have the exact same customer dedication as smaller companies. Also the email you get from BTP before handing in your instructions clearly says that the artists wont get any emails or phonecalls, but still the OP requested it in his instructions. So either he didnt read it or he thinks he is entitled to special things just because his order was big. The reason BTP responded saying they would communicate with him baffles my mind. And i dont understand why they said they would and didnt.
I usually have a minimum of 3 booked projects, plus numerous enquiries (pre-quote) that I'm dealing with at any point.
Communication is not difficult in this age of email chains and easy storing of reference material.
Because Shawn never wants to say "we can't do this" and return peoples money. He would rather BS his way out of trouble for shoddy results than be a legitimate businessman who either admits his services limitations up front OR adapts to overcome those limitations.
If they are such a big company that they can't competently take large, high end, custom orders then they shouldn't take large high end custom orders.
Admit that you're a paint by numbers painting service and provide excellent service in that space. From everything I've seen of Shawn that level of self awareness is beyon him however.
EDIT: Im not trying to cut BTP slack, I just think its not fair comparing someone who probably is working on only the OPs army at the moment to a company that does 10+ projects a month. Ofcourse they are going to have different approaches and you cant expect a "huge" company to have the exact same customer dedication as smaller companies. Also the email you get from BTP before handing in your instructions clearly says that the artists wont get any emails or phonecalls, but still the OP requested it in his instructions. So either he didnt read it or he thinks he is entitled to special things just because his order was big. The reason BTP responded saying they would communicate with him baffles my mind. And i dont understand why they said they would and didnt.
Why is it not fair? When did volume ever determine how much quality a customer should get?
And why is it that, when the customer requested communication, even if it was not allowed, did BTP not mention that to tenebre? You keep trying to blame and shame tenebre with phrases like "entitled to special things" and other such rubbish when BTP failed to communicate their own policies to them. This was not tenebre's fault, no matter how you try to manipulate and spin the facts.
If they are such a big company that they can't competently take large, high end, custom orders then they shouldn't take large high end custom orders.
Any ideas how many painters they have on their books?
Shawn has said he has around 20-30 people working there. I am thinking about 10 full time painters and another 10 part timers. If you notice they spend a lot of time painting studio armies and their own miniatures.
EDIT: Im not trying to cut BTP slack, I just think its not fair comparing someone who probably is working on only the OPs army at the moment to a company that does 10+ projects a month. Ofcourse they are going to have different approaches and you cant expect a "huge" company to have the exact same customer dedication as smaller companies. Also the email you get from BTP before handing in your instructions clearly says that the artists wont get any emails or phonecalls, but still the OP requested it in his instructions. So either he didnt read it or he thinks he is entitled to special things just because his order was big. The reason BTP responded saying they would communicate with him baffles my mind. And i dont understand why they said they would and didnt.
Why is it not fair? When did volume ever determine how much quality a customer should get?
And why is it that, when the customer requested communication, even if it was not allowed, did BTP not mention that to tenebre? You keep trying to blame and shame tenebre with phrases like "entitled to special things" and other such rubbish when BTP failed to communicate their own policies to them. This was not tenebre's fault, no matter how you try to manipulate and spin the facts.
How did they fail to communicate their own policies? you get an email saying to read it carefully where it states that artists wont see emails or get phone calls. They tell you that before they even accept the payment... OP could have cancelled when he saw that email, but didnt and then asked for special treatment and wanted to get communication. I am in no way spinning any facts. I posted the email you get after the first deposit a few pages back, maybe you failed to read it, but please, please do before you call me out on not using facts.
Im not saying that its tenebres fault, as BTP responded saying he would receive said special treatment and get the communication which he asked for. After that they didnt keep themselves to that so they are clearly in the wrong.
Im not saying that its tenebres fault, as BTP responded saying he would receive said special treatment and get the communication which he asked for. After that they didnt keep themselves to that so they are clearly in the wrong.
So what is your goal here then exactly? The utterly appalling paint job tenebre received is CLEARLY not his fault, so it's very big of you to admit that. It's awesome that it took 500 meandering posts on your part to get there. So what ARE you saying at this point?
M0ff3l wrote: Im not trying to cut BTP slack, I just think its not fair comparing someone who probably is working on only the OPs army at the moment to a company that does 10+ projects a month.
Why not? If I'm dropping several thousand pounds at any establishment, I damn well expect to get the red carpet treatment. That's three to four months wages for most commission painters. Good communication and results I am happy with are a must.
So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?
I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.
Azazelx wrote: Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.
Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?
Why would you not? Unless you have something to hide?
I'd like to see how you and they interact from the start. Besides, you've provided us with no proof whatsoever that you're actually getting them to paint your army, so for all we know, you may be nothing more than a troll. The fact that you're hesitant to do any of this right now (while the fire is hot) makes me rather dubious about your claims. Back them up! There's plenty to show right now if you're actually legitimate - none of which compromises your identity or personal information. Photos of your army, the detailed instructions, the discussion with Shawn, the price quote, the tracking number of your parcel... Wouldn't worry me if the thread was idle for a couple of weeks. My P&M Blog thread has been idle for longer than that. Doesn't mean I won't be back to it or that no-one will read it when I get back.
In fact, I'd say it behooves you to provide the pre-painted army pictures, painting level (1-6) and detailed painting instructions before BTP has gotten the figures in hand. Otherwise you could say or show any old thing to match up to whatever they happen to do with your figures. We need the proof in advance.
Azazelx wrote: Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.
Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?
Why would you not? Unless you have something to hide?
I'd like to see how you and they interact from the start. Besides, you've provided us with no proof whatsoever that you're actually getting them to paint your army, so for all we know, you may be nothing more than a troll. The fact that you're hesitant to do any of this right now (while the fire is hot) makes me rather dubious about your claims. Back them up! There's plenty to show right now if you're actually legitimate - none of which compromises your identity or personal information. Photos of your army, the detailed instructions, the discussion with Shawn, the price quote, the tracking number of your parcel... Wouldn't worry me if the thread was idle for a couple of weeks. My P&M Blog thread has been idle for longer than that. Doesn't mean I won't be back to it or that no-one will read it when I get back.
In fact, I'd say it behooves you to provide the pre-painted army pictures, painting level (1-6) and detailed painting instructions before BTP has gotten the figures in hand. Otherwise you could say or show any old thing to match up to whatever they happen to do with your figures. We need the proof in advance.
Honestly, everyone has called this guy out for two pages. He's full of or he has something to hide. Why else would he not show his "army," being done in another thread?
Azazelx wrote: Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.
Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?
Why would you not? Unless you have something to hide?
I'd like to see how you and they interact from the start. Besides, you've provided us with no proof whatsoever that you're actually getting them to paint your army, so for all we know, you may be nothing more than a troll. The fact that you're hesitant to do any of this right now (while the fire is hot) makes me rather dubious about your claims. Back them up! There's plenty to show right now if you're actually legitimate - none of which compromises your identity or personal information. Photos of your army, the detailed instructions, the discussion with Shawn, the price quote, the tracking number of your parcel... Wouldn't worry me if the thread was idle for a couple of weeks. My P&M Blog thread has been idle for longer than that. Doesn't mean I won't be back to it or that no-one will read it when I get back.
In fact, I'd say it behooves you to provide the pre-painted army pictures, painting level (1-6) and detailed painting instructions before BTP has gotten the figures in hand. Otherwise you could say or show any old thing to match up to whatever they happen to do with your figures. We need the proof in advance.
Honestly, everyone has called this guy out for two pages. He's full of or he has something to hide. Why else would he not show his "army," being done in another thread?
Pretty much this.
I know that I would not believe him at this point if he did claim to get a perfectly painted army from BTP.
There is a credibility gap - and as I pointed out, deciding to spend money on a painting service because of a review describing terrible service, nonexistent communication, and bad painting is, at best, a poor decision, and at worst a shill for the company.
Or... just a troll, doing troll things, for troll reasons....
The Auld Grump - who is not a troll, but may be an ogre... just a short ogre....
Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"
The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.
Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.
Azazelx wrote: Thanks Tom, but I'm going to pass on your suggestion for a couple of reasons. He did spend 22 posts stirring up trouble in this thread and casting endless aspersions onto tenebre and what he describes as happening. I think he needs to man up and put up in his own thread.
Why would I start a thread now? Im shipping my army from the EU to the US and Its only been in transit for like 5 days. I said I would make the thread once I get either my army back or pictures from BTP. Posting now and just copy pasting my emails and then having the thread idle for like 2 weeks till my army even arrives there seems pointless?
Why would you not? Unless you have something to hide?
I'd like to see how you and they interact from the start. Besides, you've provided us with no proof whatsoever that you're actually getting them to paint your army, so for all we know, you may be nothing more than a troll. The fact that you're hesitant to do any of this right now (while the fire is hot) makes me rather dubious about your claims. Back them up! There's plenty to show right now if you're actually legitimate - none of which compromises your identity or personal information. Photos of your army, the detailed instructions, the discussion with Shawn, the price quote, the tracking number of your parcel... Wouldn't worry me if the thread was idle for a couple of weeks. My P&M Blog thread has been idle for longer than that. Doesn't mean I won't be back to it or that no-one will read it when I get back.
In fact, I'd say it behooves you to provide the pre-painted army pictures, painting level (1-6) and detailed painting instructions before BTP has gotten the figures in hand. Otherwise you could say or show any old thing to match up to whatever they happen to do with your figures. We need the proof in advance.
Honestly, everyone has called this guy out for two pages. He's full of or he has something to hide. Why else would he not show his "army," being done in another thread?
\
But still even I never said they "cant" do something good. All i ever said was look at what was done for me. I hope his army gets a great job and looks awesome. I would never wish ill for anyone's models as, at least for me, they are very dear to the owners heart.
And I would hope knowing that it will be scrutinized he will get way better than asked for.
jreilly89 wrote: So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?
I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.
MWG basically made a blatantly dishonest endorsement of BTP by asking for only positive feedback in a video which was marketed as a review of BTP but was really just a big suck up saying they can do no wrong. They also claimed that any negative feedback about BTP is overblown and just that person being difficult and its just the normal negative feedback any company will receive. It was basically a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment.
They should have just remained silent on the whole issue.
As for MWG in general, they REALLY suck at playing miniature games. They're the definition of bumbling casual gamers. They can't bother themselves to learn even basic tactics or even the names of their own models. They make tones of rule mistakes. The only thing they seem able to do well is make a good youtube video, which only highlights their deficiencies on other areas. When your business revolves around miniature gaming, the least you can do is be competent at the games you are playing. Every time I watch a MWG batrep I end up wanting to beat them with a rulebook and a basket of common sense.
A basket of common sense? That would look brilliant...
But I did watch their series of videos on how to play War Machine and found them to be quite informative. Mind you, I'm only just starting to get into it and I haven't actually played a game myself yet.
As for sticking up for BTP, that smacks of cronyism and really shouldn't be happening. At all.
You have my best wishes tenebre, and I really hope the redo of your Chaos Dwarves turns out to be amazing. I look forward to seeing them
jreilly89 wrote: So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?
I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.
MWG basically made a blatantly dishonest endorsement of BTP by asking for only positive feedback in a video which was marketed as a review of BTP but was really just a big suck up saying they can do no wrong. They also claimed that any negative feedback about BTP is overblown and just that person being difficult and its just the normal negative feedback any company will receive. It was basically a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment.
They should have just remained silent on the whole issue.
As for MWG in general, they REALLY suck at playing miniature games. They're the definition of bumbling casual gamers. They can't bother themselves to learn even basic tactics or even the names of their own models. They make tones of rule mistakes. The only thing they seem able to do well is make a good youtube video, which only highlights their deficiencies on other areas. When your business revolves around miniature gaming, the least you can do is be competent at the games you are playing. Every time I watch a MWG batrep I end up wanting to beat them with a rulebook and a basket of common sense.
That's really shady and disappointing. And really? I'm fairly competent with the rules and I've seen some mistakes, but I've always chalked that up to them wanting it to be fun rather than 100% accurate. Dave's really good about fething gak up. As to the tactics, yeah, they make a lot of errors, but again, I think that's chalked up to more speed and them wanting it to be lighthearted and fun rather than taking it seriously. Ah well, I never really look to them for ideas other than just watching some crazy gak happen.
Steelmage99 wrote: I hate to be the Negative Nanny about this, but that is not a fair comparison.
The new painting company has received far more communication about what you want both through telephone, through the posts in this thread and through your videos than BTP did (partly due to their own reluctance to let you speak to the painter).
Comparing the two results and saying something along the lines of; "look what two different companies produced with the same instructions at X price. BTP are poop-heads" is not a justified rational statement in that situation.
Again, please note that I am tentatively on tenebre's side in regard to this issue. I am only addressing the fallaciousness of the "Nothing changed at all" part
I'm going to have to agree with the others here as well. BTP was supplied with reference artwork pictures and a description. If the description was not clear or the reference artwork unobtainable, they should have contacted the client. ESPECIALLY since it was explicitly part of the original agreement that the artist would discuss how it would be done.
Now, I might agree with you that saying "Nothing changed at all" is false... yes... the new studio has more information up front. However I think it's fair to say "For all intents and purposes, nothing changed at all" (which implies, yes, something did change, but no that should not have an affect on the end results).
The only thing that might very well be different between the new commission and the old commission is we don't know if the new commission is done to the same standard (money wise) as the BTP commission. If BTP was charging $20 a model, is the new commission service doing a job that would also be worth $20 a model (including assembly, cleaning the models, priming, etc).
Steelmage99 wrote: I hate to be the Negative Nanny about this, but that is not a fair comparison.
The new painting company has received far more communication about what you want both through telephone, through the posts in this thread and through your videos than BTP did (partly due to their own reluctance to let you speak to the painter).
Comparing the two results and saying something along the lines of; "look what two different companies produced with the same instructions at X price. BTP are poop-heads" is not a justified rational statement in that situation.
Again, please note that I am tentatively on tenebre's side in regard to this issue. I am only addressing the fallaciousness of the "Nothing changed at all" part
I'm going to have to agree with the others here as well. BTP was supplied with reference artwork pictures and a description. If the description was not clear or the reference artwork unobtainable, they should have contacted the client. ESPECIALLY since it was explicitly part of the original agreement that the artist would discuss how it would be done.
Now, I might agree with you that saying "Nothing changed at all" is false... yes... the new studio has more information up front. However I think it's fair to say "For all intents and purposes, nothing changed at all" (which implies, yes, something did change, but no that should not have an affect on the end results).
The only thing that might very well be different between the new commission and the old commission is we don't know if the new commission is done to the same standard (money wise) as the BTP commission. If BTP was charging $20 a model, is the new commission service doing a job that would also be worth $20 a model (including assembly, cleaning the models, priming, etc).
the new company is about ~30% LESS cost wise for the level agreed on. which is equivalent to the level i requested from BTP. BTP charged $17 per model MINIMUM, my heroes were all over $50 each (dwarfs) bull centaurs were 75 except the bull centaur Hero which was $210 for PAINTING ONLY!
I have always only been referring to painting costs alone.
jreilly89 wrote: So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?
I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.
MWG basically made a blatantly dishonest endorsement of BTP by asking for only positive feedback in a video which was marketed as a review of BTP but was really just a big suck up saying they can do no wrong. They also claimed that any negative feedback about BTP is overblown and just that person being difficult and its just the normal negative feedback any company will receive. It was basically a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment.
They should have just remained silent on the whole issue.
As for MWG in general, they REALLY suck at playing miniature games. They're the definition of bumbling casual gamers. They can't bother themselves to learn even basic tactics or even the names of their own models. They make tones of rule mistakes. The only thing they seem able to do well is make a good youtube video, which only highlights their deficiencies on other areas. When your business revolves around miniature gaming, the least you can do is be competent at the games you are playing. Every time I watch a MWG batrep I end up wanting to beat them with a rulebook and a basket of common sense.
That's really shady and disappointing. And really? I'm fairly competent with the rules and I've seen some mistakes, but I've always chalked that up to them wanting it to be fun rather than 100% accurate. Dave's really good about fething gak up. As to the tactics, yeah, they make a lot of errors, but again, I think that's chalked up to more speed and them wanting it to be lighthearted and fun rather than taking it seriously. Ah well, I never really look to them for ideas other than just watching some crazy gak happen.
The thing is you cannot be like that because people watch their videos to try and get better at the game.
I've had to straighten more than one newbie out because "well thats how MWG does it"
I feel you man. Me and my big brother used Blue Table Painting a few years back, and kinda same thing happened to us. They promised me pictures of conversions before painting for approvel, but I never got a single picture until I got my miniatures 6 weeks late. BTP didn't even remove a single mold line from my brothers miniatures.
BTP always brag about good communication, but the truth is they have no communication.
tenebre wrote: Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"
The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.
Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.
Definitely interested to see a review on the new models. Is there any ETA on them?
I watched the video, I felt he was more than fair.
What should have happened is for Shawn to have jumped on the grenade and posted a video response where he threw his own company under the bus more savagely than the customer did, and then declare that he was going to fix this by whatever means. He should have then offered a full refund, begged the customer for the chance to redo it properly (including putting the valuation of the unpainted army in escrow to assure the customer that they don't need to worry about possession musical chairs), or offered to subcontract the repair of the paint job to another provider to establish that come hell or high water that his company will deliver the product the customer was seeking by any means. Then they needed to make sure the customer was 100% satisfied. Bad press becomes good press.
This assumes they have the cashflow to make that happen. They might not. If they are underwater, then all they've got is offering empty promises and trying to sweep it under the rug because they've got no legitimate plays.
Or he gave money to a trash and dash fly by night operation that is never going to deliver.
Now, an underwater company that can't deliver is something the buyer didn't protect himself on, so the magnitude of the train wreck is pretty much entirely the buyers fault. That doesn't make him a bad person, or even a stupid person. It makes him a person that did a stupid or ignorant thing.
I would hope that after having done something as stupid/ignorant on this level that he would make a video giving advice on the proper way to commission painting. Ideally in cooperation with a commission painter so the viewer can understand both sides of the equation, and hopefully discover/document some best practices. Especially for a project this large. Milestones were invented for a reason. You don't just hand over large lump sums of money (nor should a well run business that is above water ever allow you to do so). Milestone one for a project this large should have involved test miniatures and only payments required for painting those test miniatures should have been made. If the test miniatures are not to standard, then the project is aborted without large sums of money or work on the table. If the miniatures are to standard, then the next milestone is painting one unit to the standard of the test miniature. If they fail to deliver, project aborted (and you've got them dead to rights if you want to go through the hassle of getting the upfront payment for that milestone back. Exhibit A: painted skulls and jewelry on the test miniature delivered on the last milestone, Exhibit B: No painted skulls or jewelry on the product they are trying to deliver for this milestone). This would have also protected BTP. They can claim their painting was to their stated standard all they want. If they get hauled into court and the ~opinion~ of the judge or arbitrator is not the ~opinion~ of Shawn, then he is a bad businessman who has to pay out a fair sum of money because he didn't protect himself.
tenebre wrote: Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"
The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.
Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.
Definitely interested to see a review on the new models. Is there any ETA on them?
i should be able to review a unit per week starting next week. I have already seen wip and test model pics
Ye gods diving in late but the thread by M0ff3l kind of caught my attention being as it didn't seem like a P&M blog leading to a little confusion on my part makes a lot more sense now.
I guess all I can do is throw in my sympathies that you had to go through this with what is meant to be a service.
jreilly89 wrote: So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?
I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.
MWG basically made a blatantly dishonest endorsement of BTP by asking for only positive feedback in a video which was marketed as a review of BTP but was really just a big suck up saying they can do no wrong. They also claimed that any negative feedback about BTP is overblown and just that person being difficult and its just the normal negative feedback any company will receive. It was basically a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment.
They should have just remained silent on the whole issue.
As for MWG in general, they REALLY suck at playing miniature games. They're the definition of bumbling casual gamers. They can't bother themselves to learn even basic tactics or even the names of their own models. They make tones of rule mistakes. The only thing they seem able to do well is make a good youtube video, which only highlights their deficiencies on other areas. When your business revolves around miniature gaming, the least you can do is be competent at the games you are playing. Every time I watch a MWG batrep I end up wanting to beat them with a rulebook and a basket of common sense.
That's really shady and disappointing. And really? I'm fairly competent with the rules and I've seen some mistakes, but I've always chalked that up to them wanting it to be fun rather than 100% accurate. Dave's really good about fething gak up. As to the tactics, yeah, they make a lot of errors, but again, I think that's chalked up to more speed and them wanting it to be lighthearted and fun rather than taking it seriously. Ah well, I never really look to them for ideas other than just watching some crazy gak happen.
The thing is you cannot be like that because people watch their videos to try and get better at the game.
I've had to straighten more than one newbie out because "well thats how MWG does it"
Okay, but half their videos, at least the Banter Bat Reps, flat out say "Hey, we're gonna feth up rules, sorry, give us a break". I know several others, Frontline Gaming and Striking Scorpion included, although I love them dearly, who also feth up rules. 40k videos are a great way to learn the basics/majority of the game, but they do not replace the BRB. Newbies should read the BRB, watch some videos, then re-read the BRB. That, and guess what, people mess up rules. I've had to straighten out newbies who've never watched MWG.
Grey Templar wrote: Volume is relative. No painting service should EVER be able to use the excuse of "we're swamped" if they let quality slip. They shouldn't take more than they can handle. They can tell someone they'll need to wait as they're too busy.
Especially on their premium jobs, of which there won't be many. You get a premium job, you give a premium service. And honestly, the painter should be the one to talk to the client. He's currently giving his undivided attention to the project, a 5 minute phone call and/or e-mail is so easy there is no excuse not to do it. Heck you could do a freaking Skype call and show your progress directly.
I guess you have to make compromises if you're so worried about staff leaving that you can't have them even talk to the customer directly. The whole set-up seems to be to prevent the painters taking on customers privately, which makes me think they're either a. grossly underpaid and/or b. never with the company very long.
tenebre wrote: Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"
The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.
Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.
Definitely interested to see a review on the new models. Is there any ETA on them?
i should be able to review a unit per week starting next week. I have already seen wip and test model pics
Awesome, I'm definitely looking forward to it. Those are awesome models and they deserve a good paint job.
tenebre wrote: Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"
The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.
Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.
Definitely interested to see a review on the new models. Is there any ETA on them?
i should be able to review a unit per week starting next week. I have already seen wip and test model pics
Awesome, I'm definitely looking forward to it. Those are awesome models and they deserve a good paint job.
Are they doing a full repaint or a touch up?
its a repair job. but so far its fantastic.
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RiTides wrote: Looks good but is blank for about the last 30 seconds (after you've already signed off)
Looking forward to seeing the repaint results!
Always are i usually put up subscribe now and such in that spot.. but for some reason i just dont like doing that with these videos. If you watch the batrep end you can see what i use it for.
1. MWG sent out an email and simultaneously place up a vault member only video requesting positive reviews for BTP about two weeks ago(I think).
2. Many people contacted Matt from MWG assuming he was unaware about the Chaos Dwarf fiasco underway. This was done both via emails and the comments section of the vault member video.
3. Matt from MWG did a sit and talk, and replied to comments in the vault member video showing that he did in fact know about the Chaos Dwarf video. In the Sit and Talk, he even directly addressed it and his tone and what he said implied that when a company was as big and successful as BTP, trolls would always come out and try disparaging them (implying, heavily, that Tenebre is such a troll).
4. Matt then removed the vault member video. Some assumed this was based on a change of heart, however, after being questioned by a vault member on the forum, he replied that the only reason he took it down was because they had enough positive comments and he then locked the thread to stop "negativity".
As far as I know, that's everything from MWG. I've personally quit my vault membership over this, though I don't assume many will. I just found their response on this rather disgusting (thinly veiled blaming of Tenebre).
My own message to Matt via their facebook page,
Hello, I've been a fan of MWG for a while and, being aware of the Chaos Dwarf army issue with BTP. I was a little surprised, and disheartened with the timing of the request to vault members for positive reviews to be sent to MWG as client testimonials for a positive video endorsing BTP. However, I gave MWG the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were not entirely aware of the issue. Then, the commentary in both the Sit and Talk and the comments of the request video made it obvious that you were aware of the issue. I was considering removing myself as a fault member and would have, except I then found you had removed the request video. Assuming this was done due to a change of heart, I held off removing my vault membership while waiting to see what your intent was. However, I just became aware of your recent comment in the MWG forums to the tune of the video only being removed due to the fact you had enough positive feedback now, and that you had locked the thread due to the amount of negative feedback you'd been receiving on the previous request video. I can honestly say this is both disappointing and disillusioning. Previous to this incident, I had considered MWG to be an independent, and intentionally unbiased site that had a love of the hobby I similarly shared a love for. After this, and reading your various comments disparaging the man behind the Chaos Army review, I can no longer support, nor enjoy MWG's content. I am thoroughly disgusted and have removed my vault member subscription from MGW. Yours Sincerely, Sean Martin (Gullinbursti on MWG)
1. MWG sent out an email and simultaneously place up a vault member only video requesting positive reviews for BTP about two weeks ago(I think).
2. Many people contacted Matt from MWG assuming he was unaware about the Chaos Dwarf fiasco underway. This was done both via emails and the comments section of the vault member video.
3. Matt from MWG did a sit and talk, and replied to comments in the vault member video showing that he did in fact know about the Chaos Dwarf video. In the Sit and Talk, he even directly addressed it and his tone and what he said implied that when a company was as big and successful as BTP, trolls would always come out and try disparaging them (implying, heavily, that Tenebre is such a troll).
4. Matt then removed the vault member video. Some assumed this was based on a change of heart, however, after being questioned by a vault member on the forum, he replied that the only reason he took it down was because they had enough positive comments and he then locked the thread to stop "negativity".
As far as I know, that's everything from MWG. I've personally quit my vault membership over this, though I don't assume many will. I just found their response on this rather disgusting (thinly veiled blaming of Tenebre).
My own message to Matt via their facebook page,
Hello, I've been a fan of MWG for a while and, being aware of the Chaos Dwarf army issue with BTP. I was a little surprised, and disheartened with the timing of the request to vault members for positive reviews to be sent to MWG as client testimonials for a positive video endorsing BTP. However, I gave MWG the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were not entirely aware of the issue. Then, the commentary in both the Sit and Talk and the comments of the request video made it obvious that you were aware of the issue. I was considering removing myself as a fault member and would have, except I then found you had removed the request video. Assuming this was done due to a change of heart, I held off removing my vault membership while waiting to see what your intent was. However, I just became aware of your recent comment in the MWG forums to the tune of the video only being removed due to the fact you had enough positive feedback now, and that you had locked the thread due to the amount of negative feedback you'd been receiving on the previous request video. I can honestly say this is both disappointing and disillusioning. Previous to this incident, I had considered MWG to be an independent, and intentionally unbiased site that had a love of the hobby I similarly shared a love for. After this, and reading your various comments disparaging the man behind the Chaos Army review, I can no longer support, nor enjoy MWG's content. I am thoroughly disgusted and have removed my vault member subscription from MGW. Yours Sincerely, Sean Martin (Gullinbursti on MWG)
I honestly wonder if matt will even respond, kinda hope he does just to get a better peak into his mind.
Grey Templar wrote: They're almost like false options under the assumption that the customer will just say "ehh never mind, I'll just accept the crap you gave me"
Honestly that seems like what they really believe, especially if you see some of the paint jobs posted on OP's other thread in warseer.
curran12 wrote: So with that latest video, tenebre, are you still pursuing legal action?
yes i have secured a lawyer. I cant give anymore info though. Also remember justice is a slow process, I promise I will update when its possible. These things takes months not weeks though.
The more and more I read of shawn, the more he has a sese f overflated ego of that he cant fail
1:He thinks the customer is wrong, and said it. Even if they are wrong, you dont say it. Everyone knows the customer is always right, even when they are not(Im not sayig tenebre is wrong here, you just never call the customer wrong)
2: He is charging for business advice 1200$. First he thinks its good advice, then he thinks he can charge this much
3: the KS campaign....ugh.
curran12 wrote: So with that latest video, tenebre, are you still pursuing legal action?
yes i have secured a lawyer. I cant give anymore info though. Also remember justice is a slow process, I promise I will update when its possible. These things takes months not weeks though.
As someone whose family is involved in a legal battle, my best wishes go out to you. This is going to suck and it will probably go on until next summer. Hopefully this will get resolved "quickly".
RiTides wrote: What video are you referring to, Steelmage, as both of tenebre's videos are still up?
Honestly, the repaint by the new company should speak volumes more than anything else. Would love to see a review / video of that when this is done
Actually not really. I am on tenebres side as well and think he got ripped off to the extreme but the probono paint job was a smart marketing strategy by that studio, which will and very deservedly should, gain them TONS of good will with the community and is one hell of an opportunity to showcase their best work.
Basically I am saying it is unrealistic to expect a painting commission for free, and just as unlikely for it to be anything but above average performance in this instance. So while BTP did do a poor job, comparing their work next to what comes from this will be trivial at best as there is no balanced scale on any of the marks.
I can't wait to see it myself at any rate though! Heck I can't wait to find out who the generous studio was.
curran12 wrote: So with that latest video, tenebre, are you still pursuing legal action?
yes i have secured a lawyer. I cant give anymore info though. Also remember justice is a slow process, I promise I will update when its possible. These things takes months not weeks though.
As someone whose family is involved in a legal battle, my best wishes go out to you. This is going to suck and it will probably go on until next summer. Hopefully this will get resolved "quickly".
This. My mother went through a legal battle over a car accident (she wasn't at fault, a car backed into her) and it took forever, about 6-9 months.
Red Corsair wrote: Actually not really. I am on tenebres side as well and think he got ripped off to the extreme but the probono paint job was a smart marketing strategy by that studio, which will and very deservedly should, gain them TONS of good will with the community and is one hell of an opportunity to showcase their best work.
Basically I am saying it is unrealistic to expect a painting commission for free, and just as unlikely for it to be anything but above average performance in this instance. So while BTP did do a poor job, comparing their work next to what comes from this will be trivial at best as there is no balanced scale on any of the marks.
You're not the first person to say this, and it's still completely silly.
Before: Garbage BTP produced.
After: High end paint job that tenebre originally paid for.
It's not scientific, but it WILL underline the failings in BTPs work. Eliminate the highly subjective 'art' side of things and there are any number of 'craft' components that were clearly lacking and that (hopefully) won't be in the new paint job
Red Corsair wrote: Actually not really. I am on tenebres side as well and think he got ripped off to the extreme but the probono paint job was a smart marketing strategy by that studio, which will and very deservedly should, gain them TONS of good will with the community and is one hell of an opportunity to showcase their best work.
Basically I am saying it is unrealistic to expect a painting commission for free, and just as unlikely for it to be anything but above average performance in this instance. So while BTP did do a poor job, comparing their work next to what comes from this will be trivial at best as there is no balanced scale on any of the marks.
You're not the first person to say this, and it's still completely silly.
Before: Garbage BTP produced.
After: High end paint job that tenebre originally paid for.
It's not scientific, but it WILL underline the failings in BTPs work. Eliminate the highly subjective 'art' side of things and there are any number of 'craft' components that were clearly lacking and that (hopefully) won't be in the new paint job
But you are missing the part where the failings don't need to be underlined lol.
OK, I guess maybe you personally need them underlined but personally if I pay Ferrari prices and you ship me a Pinto I don't need to see a Ferrari to know I overpaid for the POS Pinto.
And before this escalates on a tangent about how I am somehow victim shaming, I will restate that I am behind tenebre here 100% and I am curious to see the results. I just also find it ridiculous that some people aren't looking at the free repaint as anything other then smart PR for the current studio, and further more to expect less then above average and expected results considering the audience they now have held captive, because frankly, it would be a massively stupid blunder to produce anything but perfect results at this point.
quickfuze wrote: Who is the current studio doing the repaint btw? I think I missed that part.
We haven't been told yet.
I'll happily promote the new painting company, if nothing else for helping out in bringing this very nice army to the table.
Same here. And I've made note of which studios have offered to help and given good advice. You're all going in the mental rolodex for when I finally decided to get some of my Kingdom Death minis painted (looking specifically at you, Winterdyne )
But you are missing the part where the failings don't need to be underlined lol.
OK, I guess maybe you personally need them underlined but personally if I pay Ferrari prices and you ship me a Pinto I don't need to see a Ferrari to know I overpaid for the POS Pinto.
And before this escalates on a tangent about how I am somehow victim shaming, I will restate that I am behind tenebre here 100% and I am curious to see the results. I just also find it ridiculous that some people aren't looking at the free repaint as anything other then smart PR for the current studio, and further more to expect less then above average and expected results considering the audience they now have held captive, because frankly, it would be a massively stupid blunder to produce anything but perfect results at this point.
We have a thread in this forum by someone who saw the CD video and thought "that looks awesome", so I think that, as far as informing the consumer, the work done by the new studio will have some merit.
I agree that it's not going to impact the BTP/Tenebre situation at all, other than giving tenebre the army he thought he was paying for initially and resolving that element of this situation for him.
So...we agree then...maybe? I'm not sure what were talking about anymore.
quickfuze wrote: Who is the current studio doing the repaint btw? I think I missed that part.
We haven't been told yet.
I'll happily promote the new painting company, if nothing else for helping out in bringing this very nice army to the table.
Same here. And I've made note of which studios have offered to help and given good advice. You're all going in the mental rolodex for when I finally decided to get some of my Kingdom Death minis painted (looking specifically at you, Winterdyne )
Haven't been told on purpose. Tenebre is gonna let us all know as the WIP come back in few days.
We have a thread in this forum by someone who saw the CD video and thought "that looks awesome", so I think that, as far as informing the consumer, the work done by the new studio will have some merit.
You probably mean me, which is fair because I did say something like that in my thread. However if this is about me, you fail to mention that I was refering to the army video BTP put up, back when I didnt know what level it was supposed to be painted and I didnt know any of the client specifications. You can go look up that video on BTP's channel there is a lot of positive feedback about how that army looks. That probably says something about the difference between your tastes/standards and me/the average BTP client/viewer.
Also, obviously, the BTP video didnt showcase all the things that were wrong with the army like Tenebres video does.
They have a program where they trade advertising for painting services. One of the things they do is make showcase and ad videos when one of their partners cash in enough credits.
The point being, MWG didn't decide to make this video out of the blue, BTP was desperate for some good news and cashed in their credits.
quickfuze wrote: Who is the current studio doing the repaint btw? I think I missed that part.
We haven't been told yet.
I'll happily promote the new painting company, if nothing else for helping out in bringing this very nice army to the table.
Same here. And I've made note of which studios have offered to help and given good advice. You're all going in the mental rolodex for when I finally decided to get some of my Kingdom Death minis painted (looking specifically at you, Winterdyne )
Haven't been told on purpose. Tenebre is gonna let us all know as the WIP come back in few days.
I THINK there have been some hints in this thread as to who is doing the repaint. I'm far from sure, and I wouldn't want to spoil the reveal even if I was, but assuming I'm right, it's going to look awesome.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The more and more I read of shawn, the more he has a sese f overflated ego of that he cant fail
Yeah. I remember the reason given for why their kickstarter failed was "a lot of the backers we had got super excited and couldn't wait to get their armies done so pulled out".
There's been a lot of good input on this thread about commission painting in general, and it got me thinking about how Blue Table fits into it, taking into account their methods and results. It seems apparent that a lot of the 'high end' commission painters treat a client's army as their own, and put just as much care, attention and effort into a project. Whilst Blue Table certainly do seem to have it in them to do good work, I don't feel they have the same attitude towards their clients/projects, and each one is more of an 'assembly line' process.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The more and more I read of shawn, the more he has a sese f overflated ego of that he cant fail
Yeah. I remember the reason given for why their kickstarter failed was "a lot of the backers we had got super excited and couldn't wait to get their armies done so pulled out".
There's been a lot of good input on this thread about commission painting in general, and it got me thinking about how Blue Table fits into it, taking into account their methods and results. It seems apparent that a lot of the 'high end' commission painters treat a client's army as their own, and put just as much care, attention and effort into a project. Whilst Blue Table certainly do seem to have it in them to do good work, I don't feel they have the same attitude towards their clients/projects, and each one is more of an 'assembly line' process.
That's fair, and there's certainly a call for a service like that (bargain bucket product at bargain bucket prices).
There's a problem in the miniature painting industry in particular that people expect to pay very little for work that takes a lot more care than they think. A service that offers a neat, basic standard at the right price has a definite niche. It's doable.
I've had so many enquiries dissipate after a ballpark figure is given it's unreal (and I know a lot of other guys find this too).
You'll notice I harp on a lot about 'work out how many hours you're paying for' in all these threads, it's a good practice to get into.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The more and more I read of shawn, the more he has a sese f overflated ego of that he cant fail
Yeah. I remember the reason given for why their kickstarter failed was "a lot of the backers we had got super excited and couldn't wait to get their armies done so pulled out".
There's been a lot of good input on this thread about commission painting in general, and it got me thinking about how Blue Table fits into it, taking into account their methods and results. It seems apparent that a lot of the 'high end' commission painters treat a client's army as their own, and put just as much care, attention and effort into a project. Whilst Blue Table certainly do seem to have it in them to do good work, I don't feel they have the same attitude towards their clients/projects, and each one is more of an 'assembly line' process.
That's fair, and there's certainly a call for a service like that (bargain bucket product at bargain bucket prices).
There's a problem in the miniature painting industry in particular that people expect to pay very little for work that takes a lot more care than they think. A service that offers a neat, basic standard at the right price has a definite niche. It's doable.
I've had so many enquiries dissipate after a ballpark figure is given it's unreal (and I know a lot of other guys find this too).
You'll notice I harp on a lot about 'work out how many hours you're paying for' in all these threads, it's a good practice to get into.
Not to go too far off the rails in this thread.
People generally don't realize how long it takes to do a model to the standard you are looking at with a high end commision (let alone an above average paint job.)
People think "Hey I can paint a SM in like 10 minutes. so your are awesome and can make it look better than me in the same 10 minutes...."
Back on topic.
I can't hardly wait to see the fixes and who did them.
Steelmage99 wrote: I am going to bow out of this discussion.
We clearly have differing standards on critical thinking and rationality. That is an issue we can work with and discuss.
But some things will stop a conversion dead......and here it is;
This childish and intellectually vapid accusation is the perfect way to derail a conversation.
You, sir, should be ashamed of your self.
I have gone out of my way to ensure my position regarding tenebre is perfectly clear. Anybody who sees any kind of victim blaming must have either reading comprehension issues or suffer from an extreme case of intellectual dishonesty.
Tenebre, I wish with all my being that you get this issue resolved (both legally and in regard to enjoying your army), and I look forward to seeing it beautifully painted.
Your superior critical thinking skills and rationality are truly awesome to behold, considering I wasn't speaking about you. I like how you can find offence where none exists, and show your intellectual inferiors when they need to be ashamed.
Anyways... I totally agree with people's points about the end customer not understanding how much time is needed to carry out a paint process. Even for small things, it's never trivial. A friend of mine was a commission painter while he was in art school, he gave up after it started taking all his free time.
I don't think the OP had any issue with the amount of time involved with getting the commission painted. From what he has stated (multiple times), the issue was the complete lack of communication and the failure of BTP to deliver a product in lines with the standard negotiated and paid for.
Saldiven wrote: I don't think the OP had any issue with the amount of time involved with getting the commission painted. From what he has stated (multiple times), the issue was the complete lack of communication and the failure of BTP to deliver a product in lines with the standard negotiated and paid for.
correct. and when i asked for WiP pictures for 7 weeks straight and kept being told tomorrow and still never saw anything, then the "time" bothered me.
Its art and things run long, communication makes this not an issue though. But in my case there was none.
And when a project is over by nearly double the quoted time and turns out as awful as it was.. well then of course there is an issue
TheCustomLime wrote: How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.
I imagine a lot of them have normal fulltime jobs.
In the US, both of those things are true. Overseas, neither of those things are true.
Painters in Poland, Italy and some other places do very well based on commissions. I have a group from the Ukraine that has done some excellent work for me at astoundingly low rates.
TheCustomLime wrote:How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.
The way to make it work is to only do table top standard and develop some tricks that speed things up. For example, I airbrush the most common colour, zenithal highlight it, block in the rest with a brush, gloss varnish, black oil wash process, some simple highlighting, do the base and matte varnish. I tend to only take commissions from friends these days as doing it for a living almost killed my hobby. I tend to make about $20 an hour with this process.
They have a program where they trade advertising for painting services. One of the things they do is make showcase and ad videos when one of their partners cash in enough credits.
The point being, MWG didn't decide to make this video out of the blue, BTP was desperate for some good news and cashed in their credits.
You would think they could start the video with something that says this is a commercial. Like, they have openings on most of their other videos, why not be clear on the fact this is a paid-advertisement?
TheCustomLime wrote: How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.
I imagine a lot of them have normal fulltime jobs.
Or are college students.
Me, it was a way to make ends meet when I was a paid volunteer for a nonprofit. (The pay was lousy, but the job was a Hell of a lot more fulfilling than my current employment.)
TheCustomLime wrote:How do commission painters make ends meet? From what I can tell commission painting pays less than minimum per hour.
The way to make it work is to only do table top standard and develop some tricks that speed things up. For example, I airbrush the most common colour, zenithal highlight it, block in the rest with a brush, gloss varnish, black oil wash process, some simple highlighting, do the base and matte varnish. I tend to only take commissions from friends these days as doing it for a living almost killed my hobby. I tend to make about $20 an hour with this process.
^ this, really.
For my part, I definitely make less than minimum wage, but when I started I was a student. Then after I graduated, I kept it up as a way to help pay the bills as I hunt for fulltime employment. At least when Im not picking up odd jobs and whatnot... The post college world is an odd one.
It helps that I dont think of it as a job, but more-so as my hobby. I like getting to paint all the random weird things that clients send me
What Frozenwastes said. I normally can knock an army out in a weeks worth of evenings. But I tend to only take 1-2 a year at this point. Just enough to pay for my hobby honestly. And I tend to make well above minimum wage.
Just stumbled upon this topic. I had actually planned on using them for a fantasy. I narrowed it down to three studios and started checking out their work. When I saw this on the BTP web store I immediately eliminated them. I can paint better then this.
It's purely about " Do I have the money and do I want to spend my time for somethingelse?"
You don't need someone to wash your car, you could do it yourself. No need for school, educate your children yourself.....
As someone who has had a significant amount of commission work, it is about both.
I would never pay for something that is at, or slightly above my skill level. That is a waste. When I pay for commission, I want something that is significantly better.
It's purely about " Do I have the money and do I want to spend my time for somethingelse?"
You don't need someone to wash your car, you could do it yourself. No need for school, educate your children yourself.....
Right, but if your car comes back to you slightly on fire you might reconsider the value of the time saved.
To me, no `painting level`should include `paint slopped all over the damn place`, Staying inside the lines and keeping your paints thin are really the two basic requirements that should be considered the minimum standard for any professional painting service.
It's purely about " Do I have the money and do I want to spend my time for somethingelse?"
You don't need someone to wash your car, you could do it yourself. No need for school, educate your children yourself.....
Right, but if your car comes back to you slightly on fire you might reconsider the value of the time saved.
To me, no `painting level`should include `paint slopped all over the damn place`, Staying inside the lines and keeping your paints thin are really the two basic requirements that should be considered the minimum standard for any professional painting service.
"Your car might come back on fire" is hardly a good reason to avoid taking your car to car wash though.
But really, the minimum standard is just whatever minimum standard for which people are willing to pay. If people are willing to pay for you to spend less than 2 hours per model, then I don't see the problem with having that as your minimum standard.
I think there are a couple of legitimate factors there.
1: Absolutely, if it is very clear that you are paying for 2-3 colours slopped all over the place and that`s what you get, then no harm no foul.
2: You have to expect people to judge you by your minimum standard. Even if you are paying for something better, some people are going to judge your service by the minimum standard that you are comfortable sending out the door. It`s about pride in your work. For the Dwarf example above, it doesn`t take longer to do that same job without boltgun metal all over the place if you`re practiced, use the right tools and give a crap about what you`re doing.
plastictrees wrote: I think there are a couple of legitimate factors there.
1: Absolutely, if it is very clear that you are paying for 2-3 colours slopped all over the place and that`s what you get, then no harm no foul.
At the lower levels I don't think BTP have really misrepresented the fact they are basically just slopping colours on quickly and producing an army that most people could whip together 1 unit per weekend.
The problem in this thread is more that the OP paid for a level 4 and got something that looks like a level 2. It's not a problem that level 2 exists as an option, simply that he paid for a level 4.
2: You have to expect people to judge you by your minimum standard. Even if you are paying for something better, some people are going to judge your service by the minimum standard that you are comfortable sending out the door. It`s about pride in your work.
People have the right to judge based on whatever they want, but I do think it's slightly ignorant to judge based on the lowest standard you offer. The fact that chevy make a Cruze shouldn't really shouldn't worry you if you're looking to buy yourself a Corvette.
I can appreciate people who want to maintain a high standard across the board, the Ferraris of the painting world. I also don't see a problem with companies that want to cater to a wider audience who wants to get a whole army painted and doesn't want to spend $20,000 to have it done. I'm not saying you can't judge people based on their minimum standard, I just don't see the merit in doing so and/or looking down on a studio for offering a lower quality for people who want it.
What I think does have merit is basing your judgement on value and the overall service provided, which in this case BTP have fallen very short.
For the Dwarf example above, it doesn`t take longer to do that same job without boltgun metal all over the place if you`re practiced, use the right tools and give a crap about what you`re doing.
I'm not really seeing how you could paint it better that wouldn't also take more time. There's a million things you could do to paint them better... all of them would require more time.
I'll chime in with a salient point: it is actually quite difficult to produce a neat, basic level piece of work when you're used to working further. You tend to take shortcuts in basecoating if you're going to wash heavily and re-coat before highlights for example. No need in it being streak-free and even if you're going to mostly obliterate it anyway.
Actually doing precise work in early stages is a disciplined task and isn't necessarily much cheaper (in time) than a 3 or 4 level highlight job, simply because of the extra care that's needed covering larger areas, more evenly at that point.
One of the reasons I don't do simpler work than I offer is simply because I find it very difficult to 'dial back' into that mindset. I'm too skittish in how I approach things.
winterdyne wrote: One of the reasons I don't do simpler work than I offer is simply because I find it very difficult to 'dial back' into that mindset.
I can appreciate that, but at the end of the day painting something more basic and rougher will be faster and that's just what some people want so they can get their models on the table.
I will never paint an army faster than I painted my first army. Even though I'm always aiming to speed paint***, that first army was basic and low quality and I pumped out the models like lightning. These days I can't even bring myself to paint such low quality so even in my attempts to speed paint I know I'll probably never paint something that fast again.
***(most things in my gallery are less than 2 hours per model, many less than 1 hour per model and some less than half an hour)
But when you're trying to appeal to people who want to have thousands of points of models (quite possibly hundreds of models) I can see the benefit in trying to really slice back on the minutes per model so that you can charge a more appealing price. You're not charging for your skill, you're charging for the time you're saving the client and your ability to do it faster than your client is where you can make more money.
Correct me if I'm wrong, winterdyne, but what BTP charges for a level 3 or 4 is below what you'd charge for your basic quality level? That's why I don't really compare what you both are doing, because it's two different tiers to me, it would be like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai, Ferrari don't make Hyundai level cars so a comparison is mostly academic.
Yes, they charge considerably lower, and I would bet a considerable sum are considerably faster.
My basic level (which I evaluate as high-end tabletop) in their own objective terms appears to be around level 4 or 5. To achieve a satisfactory result with what they're saying they do at that level takes me around an hour to an hour and a half per 28mm model. Example:
These are base colour, wash, 2 levels of highlights. Average a smidge under one hour per model (that'd have gone up if I'd used more colours for the legs). Most highlights are simple layers, or drybrushing. Nothing too fancy. The only thing that's really 'tricky' is the faces, and those are something that take me maybe 5 minutes per model (I have the technique down pat, and I have a *very* pointy brush).
I see a lot of what they do as wasted effort - there's no point roughly drybrushing 3 levels of highlight onto something when a neat flat basecoat and a controlled wash takes the same time and looks better, and if necessary can be worked further later. Rushed work, no matter how much you do, looks rushed. If you're not going to do edge highlights properly, don't do them - do something else to provide the contrast. If you're going to paint eyes, do them properly, don't just slop some white in the eye socket and dot with black using the end of cocktail stick. Otherwise, just don't do them.
I think it's that lack of care (and trying to stretch their 'level' by doing poor looking, rushed work just to shoehorn bullet points onto the pricing) that's biting them on the arse in terms of the evaluation of their work - especially apparent in the Robotech stuff they put out. The OP's stuff is a terrible example even of their usual standard work.
For anyone interested. Matt posted his glowing endorsement. Also, for those saying this is normal practice, it would be, barring the request for testimonials and addition of them (heck, even the other two they put up in the last week or two didn't have those, and they were obvious masks after the complaints in the endorsement request thread.) http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/bluetablepainting-painting-commission-studio-showcase-pics-within-
This is the testimonial I especially like,
"Hi this is THAYVIAN ,owner operator of Warpwidewargaming.com. I had BlueTablePainting.com do some work on my now infamous NURGLE bikers for last years Valhalla,as well as my Daemon Prince. Both projects turned out beautifully and the work really stands up under close inspection. Shawn and his guys Skyped with me through the entire process and made sure I was happy BEFORE they delivered the finished project."
Not only is a attendee of Valhalla (which I understand is a small and close knit group, with Valhalla being run by BTP), it is also the one which seems to try and cast aspersions on on Tenebre by mentioning how easy and regular contact with BTP is and how they make sure you're happy before sending something out.
Or maybe they're really friends and it's their way of looking out for each other. Maybe a bad business move, but if that's the case then I guess it's a little honorable?
The thing I found funny, now having watched the video, is none of the pieces shown during the video, nor during the slideshow at the end, were what I'd call good. From my understanding, claiming that level four is four levels of highlighting, I'd assume it would go as follows.
1. On an already primed model, spray the darkest version of the colour you're going to use on the applicable sections, say a very dark blue on models that are going to be blue in the end.
2. Using an airbrush, spray the mid tone in the centre of the areas that are to be blue.
3. Get your lightest blue tone and lightly drybrush all the blue areas to pick out the edges.
4. Ink with a thinned blue/black ink mix to give the model basic edging and definition.
Do this for all the colours, then hit it with a matte varnish to take the shine off of the ink.
Personally, if I was speed painting, I'd do exactly that and, for a few friends in the past, I have done that. You get a neat looking and decent paint job. Its damn easy, speedy and looks decent on table top. Of course, if I was going all out, I'd use about another four layers through the airbrush, various tones of ink, a few highlights and such. However, that takes a lot longer.
In the video though, something done to super highlight how awesome and cool BTP is, I can see primer, base colour, drybrush, done. With things like OSL so roughly slopped on the glowing red eyes are just blobs of red paint that take up 3/4s of the entire marines helmet.
Except, as I already mentioned, they did two other sponsored videos, this last fortnight even, neither had a request go out for testimonials, nor did they add testimonials. Though I still do find it laughable that the "showcase" pictures BTP could provide is still way below any other painting commission group/studio I've seen.
xxvaderxx wrote: People get a grip, second 15 "Before i get any further this is a sponsored video".
BTP's original white knight rears his head again
I have said it before but ill say it again, i do not like what btp produces in regards to painted models. That does mean this has not been completely blown out of proportion.
MWG are now the Antichrist? they got work from BTP under some promotion deals, now BTP choose to cash in on that deal, what would the community propose exactly? that they dropped their agreement with BTP? how on earth would that not make them exactly the same as what this thread is complaining about BTP to begin with?.
xxvaderxx wrote: People get a grip, second 15 "Before i get any further this is a sponsored video".
BTP's original white knight rears his head again
I have said it before but ill say it again, i do not like what btp produces in regards to painted models. That does mean this has not been completely blown out of proportion.
If a 500 dollar commission got bungled this badly it would deserve the same amount of scorn but not a thread this large. You have to remember this was a 7-9k mistake by btp and their attitude deserves the reaction.
I love the people who are now going "Well if there is only a few fails and they've done 8000 jobs, then they're fine." If my job is to press a button which turns off an MRI before it fries peoples brains, I don't get a pass when I fry a guy.
Is the occasional failure still going to happen, probably. Does that mean its an excuse? No. Also, when you find out you've failed as hard as they did with Tenebre, you do your best to make it up to the wronged person. Airbrushing for 30secs to try and use badly done OSL (unrequested, nor consulted) to cover half done painting Is about the worst thing I could imagine doing to someone's army. Not only is the person left with a badly painted army which doesn't match their envisioned scheme, it makes it ever harder to repaint/fix.
If BTP can't handle the job (9000pts is a big damn jump in one sitting), you don't take it. Hell, I specifically have never painted up a full army on commission because my enjoyment/focus level is about right for Infinity sized forces. I've painted 40k/fantasy armies for myself, but I find them more a chore so I don't do themas commissions, even for mates.
Gullinbursti wrote: I love the people who are now going "Well if there is only a few fails and they've done 8000 jobs, then they're fine. If my job is to press a button which turns off an MRI before it fries peoples brains, I don't get a pass when I fry a guy.
Is the occasional failure still going to happen, probably. Does that mean its an excuse? No. Also, when you find out you've failed as hard as they did with Tenebre, you do your best to make it up to the wronged person. Airbrushing for 30secs to try and use badly done OSL (unrequested, nor consulted) to cover half done painting Is about the worst thing I could imagine doing to someone's army. Not only is the person left with a badly painted army, it makes it ever harder to repaint/fix.
If BTP can't handle the job (9000pts is a big damn jump in one sitting), you don't take it. Hell, I specifically have never painted up a full army because my enjoyment/focus level is about right for Infinity sized forces. I've painted 40k/fantasy armies for myself, but I find them more a chore so I don't do them, even as commissions for mates.
Reality check here, mistakes are only as big as the consequences they produce, they are not doing brain surgery and they are not held to the same standards you or i are. If you dont like it, i suggest you pick up gardening.
Sorry, I don't get your analogy. Take up gardening?
Edit: I'll make it simpler, say I'm a plumber. Say I take contracts to fix plumbing and I get a job to unblock a toilet. If I fail to unblock the toilet, the person who hired me isn't expected to go "Oh well, next time he'll get it". As a professional in any field, you have to accept when you fail to deliver and then go out of your way to make your customer happy. This would normally include a refund.
Gullinbursti wrote: I love the people who are now going "Well if there is only a few fails and they've done 8000 jobs, then they're fine. If my job is to press a button which turns off an MRI before it fries peoples brains, I don't get a pass when I fry a guy.
Is the occasional failure still going to happen, probably. Does that mean its an excuse? No. Also, when you find out you've failed as hard as they did with Tenebre, you do your best to make it up to the wronged person. Airbrushing for 30secs to try and use badly done OSL (unrequested, nor consulted) to cover half done painting Is about the worst thing I could imagine doing to someone's army. Not only is the person left with a badly painted army, it makes it ever harder to repaint/fix.
If BTP can't handle the job (9000pts is a big damn jump in one sitting), you don't take it. Hell, I specifically have never painted up a full army because my enjoyment/focus level is about right for Infinity sized forces. I've painted 40k/fantasy armies for myself, but I find them more a chore so I don't do them, even as commissions for mates.
Reality check here, mistakes are only as big as the consequences they produce, they are not doing brain surgery and they are not held to the same standards you or i are. If you dont like it, i suggest you pick up gardening.
Screwing up a close to $10,000 commission is a huge screwup. It can be forgiven if they actually try and fix it, but they haven't done that. They've basically denied any wrongdoing on their part, told the customer he's wrong, and didn't even do the paintjob that was requested. That is an unforgivable action. Its no longer a mistake at this point, because a mistake implies you were at least trying to do what the customer wanted.
Yeah, one thing I don't think the "Hey hey BTP Fans" get is the fact that this army, including model cost, probably ran at an amount between $12000 -$15000 USD (thats including the models and over estimating on some since some were out of print buys). For that amount I could expand and refurbish both my bathrooms, or redo the kitchen with appliances, or buy one hell of a good second hand car, or put a deposit on that new house.
This is actually nearing criminal fraud territory with the amount of cash involved. Jail time could be on the table.
If the buyer feels he has been cheated enough, then he could possibly threaten them with Criminal fraud. Has BTP not offered to redo the models free of charge?
Roughly double the up votes also. I wonder if this will be the most downvoted MWG video, also its funny they will have to keep it up otherwise it shows they are jumping ship on btp.
This is actually nearing criminal fraud territory with the amount of cash involved. Jail time could be on the table.
If the buyer feels he has been cheated enough, then he could possibly threaten them with Criminal fraud. Has BTP not offered to redo the models free of charge?
Yes they have, in fact they first offered to buy a new army, paint it and then exchange it with the one they had already done. So the customer could keep it in the meantime.
xxvaderxx wrote: MWG are now the Antichrist? they got work from BTP under some promotion deals, now BTP choose to cash in on that deal, what would the community propose exactly? that they dropped their agreement with BTP? how on earth would that not make them exactly the same as what this thread is complaining about BTP to begin with?.
You're entirely missing the point. MWG are not getting flak for having business affiliations with BTP, their getting flak for their erroneous and unethical involvement with tenebre's case. They could have easily (and, as a business, should have) taken a "no-comment" stance on matter, their statement needn't go further than "we are happy with the painting services we have received by BTP and our partnership with them will not change". Or something to that effect - business as usual, basically.
But then, BTP could (and again, should have) nipped this whole matter in the bud, addressed their failings at the very first instance, delivered excellent customer service and instead of taking a very public reputation hit could have turned it into a PR boosting success story. Oh well, that would assume we're looking at actual professionals with a sense of customer care and business ethics. Instead we have a guy digging a hole and a mate who walks past and, having a shovel, jumps in as well.
This is actually nearing criminal fraud territory with the amount of cash involved. Jail time could be on the table.
If the buyer feels he has been cheated enough, then he could possibly threaten them with Criminal fraud. Has BTP not offered to redo the models free of charge?
Yes they have, in fact they first offered to buy a new army, paint it and then exchange it with the one they had already done. So the customer could keep it in the meantime.
Erm..no. They offered to take the army back for like 20 percent store credit, offered to have GMM repaint it at BTP's cost but they backed out of that when OP said yes to that, offered to fly a painter out to OP and have him fix it there for like a week . Every option also required that OP take down his review videos
This is actually nearing criminal fraud territory with the amount of cash involved. Jail time could be on the table.
If the buyer feels he has been cheated enough, then he could possibly threaten them with Criminal fraud. Has BTP not offered to redo the models free of charge?
Yes they have, in fact they first offered to buy a new army, paint it and then exchange it with the one they had already done. So the customer could keep it in the meantime.
Except for the following fact. The army has been sent back to be fixed, IIRC, 4 times already with a ton of down time in between and they still didn't get fixed.
I wouldn't trust BTP with my very expensive Forge World army they've already mangled several times.
They did make an offer to pay another studio to repaint the army instead, but when it was accepted they backed out and claimed they wanted too much money.
This is actually nearing criminal fraud territory with the amount of cash involved. Jail time could be on the table.
If the buyer feels he has been cheated enough, then he could possibly threaten them with Criminal fraud. Has BTP not offered to redo the models free of charge?
Yes they have, in fact they first offered to buy a new army, paint it and then exchange it with the one they had already done. So the customer could keep it in the meantime.
Except for the following fact. The army has been sent back to be fixed, IIRC, 4 times already with a ton of down time in between and they still didn't get fixed.
I wouldn't trust BTP with my very expensive Forge World army they've already mangled several times.
They did make an offer to pay another studio to repaint the army instead, but when it was accepted they backed out and claimed they wanted too much money.
No they didnt, they would buy the models thus no models are needed for touch up. that is what the op stated on his original video.
xxvaderxx wrote: Yes they have, in fact they first offered to buy a new army, paint it and then exchange it with the one they had already done. So the customer could keep it in the meantime.
Someone else is equally out of touch with this issue, it seems...
xxvaderxx wrote: Yes they have, in fact they first offered to buy a new army, paint it and then exchange it with the one they had already done. So the customer could keep it in the meantime.
Someone else is equally out of touch with this issue, it seems...
Yes and that some one is apparently you, go back watch the original videos, the reason the OP did not take this offer was because he did not wanted to deal with the delay ordering this models from FW and have them delivered would cause.
xxvaderxx wrote: No they didnt, they would buy the models thus no models are needed for touch up. that is what the op stated on his original video.
And since then we've learned that BTP have retracted every single offer made except one - one that tenebre told them from the outset was out of the question. So, there goes that.
This is actually nearing criminal fraud territory with the amount of cash involved. Jail time could be on the table.
If the buyer feels he has been cheated enough, then he could possibly threaten them with Criminal fraud. Has BTP not offered to redo the models free of charge?
Yes they have, in fact they first offered to buy a new army, paint it and then exchange it with the one they had already done. So the customer could keep it in the meantime.
Except for the following fact. The army has been sent back to be fixed, IIRC, 4 times already with a ton of down time in between and they still didn't get fixed.
I wouldn't trust BTP with my very expensive Forge World army they've already mangled several times.
They did make an offer to pay another studio to repaint the army instead, but when it was accepted they backed out and claimed they wanted too much money.
If I had the chance to get GMM to paint my army I would jump at it too. Shawn was probably just saying that to placate OP and was praying he didn't choose that one.
As pointed out in the original and follow up video, Tenebre spent a lot of money, and time, both purchasing and converting portions of this army. It has out of print models that are extremely hard to get anymore and models such as the Hobgoblin riders are scratch built by Tenebre himself. There is no way this army could literally be replaced piece for piece. Like all of their offers, barring Tenebre sending his models to them for a fourth attempt at painting them, it is completely unfeasible and if chosen, would have no doubt been retracted as well.
xxvaderxx wrote: Yes and that some one is apparently you, go back watch the original videos, the reason the OP did not take this offer was because he did not wanted to deal with the delay ordering this models from FW and have them delivered would cause.
Except no, because BTP knew full well that they wouldn't be able to get hold of the same army, and, based off how they retracted all the others, I'm pretty certain that as soon as tenebre would have said "okay you get a replica army and repaint it then" BTP would have come back with "actually... the cost for getting a replica army is too high, so..." just like they did with getting another studio to repaint offer.
xxvaderxx wrote: Yes and that some one is apparently you, go back watch the original videos, the reason the OP did not take this offer was because he did not wanted to deal with the delay ordering this models from FW and have them delivered would cause.
Except no, because BTP knew full well that they wouldn't be able to get hold of the same army, and, based off how they retracted all the others, I'm pretty certain that as soon as tenebre would have said "okay you get a replica army and repaint it then" BTP would have come back with "actually... the cost for getting a replica army is too high, so..." just like they did with getting another studio to repaint offer.
If i remember correctly, the only oop models were the hobgoblins, which incidentally the op stated in the same video that they were fine, thus if he had been of the mind to work with btp, no replacement would have been necessary for those models. And regarding your second statement, since the op refused that offer, we will never know.
xxvaderxx wrote: Yes and that some one is apparently you, go back watch the original videos, the reason the OP did not take this offer was because he did not wanted to deal with the delay ordering this models from FW and have them delivered would cause.
Except no, because BTP knew full well that they wouldn't be able to get hold of the same army, and, based off how they retracted all the others, I'm pretty certain that as soon as tenebre would have said "okay you get a replica army and repaint it then" BTP would have come back with "actually... the cost for getting a replica army is too high, so..." just like they did with getting another studio to repaint offer.
If i remember correctly, the only oop models were the hobgoblins, which incidentally the op stated in the same video that they were fine, thus if he had been of the mind to work with btp, no replacement would have been necessary for those models. And regarding your second statement, since the op refused that offer, we will never know.
Dancing around the question. If you have a army worth that much, and a company has screwed up this badly would you even trust them for a FIFTH time? If you say yes you are more disillusioned than I previously thought.
xxvaderxx wrote: thus if he had been of the mind to work with btp
As we have seen, tenebre has been more than gracious and willing to work on a solution to this, to no avail. The lack of communication, the mishandling of the commission itself and the subsequent stalling and wasting of tenebre's time with outlandish offers and constant backpeddling is all on BTP. Trying to argue otherwise is futile and boils down to white knighting for BTP. What are you trying to achieve here?
And regarding your second statement, since the op refused that offer, we will never know.
No, but all evidence thus far supports my misgivings. Kinda funny how the only offer they haven't touched is also the only offer tenebre said from the beginning was, understandably, unacceptable to him.
xxvaderxx wrote: Yes and that some one is apparently you, go back watch the original videos, the reason the OP did not take this offer was because he did not wanted to deal with the delay ordering this models from FW and have them delivered would cause.
Except no, because BTP knew full well that they wouldn't be able to get hold of the same army, and, based off how they retracted all the others, I'm pretty certain that as soon as tenebre would have said "okay you get a replica army and repaint it then" BTP would have come back with "actually... the cost for getting a replica army is too high, so..." just like they did with getting another studio to repaint offer.
If i remember correctly, the only oop models were the hobgoblins, which incidentally the op stated in the same video that they were fine, thus if he had been of the mind to work with btp, no replacement would have been necessary for those models. And regarding your second statement, since the op refused that offer, we will never know.
Dancing around the question. If you have a army worth that much, and a company has screwed up this badly would you even trust them for a FIFTH time? If you say yes you are more disillusioned than I previously thought.
So then you concede that they in deed offered what i stated, good you are starting to get your facts straight.
xxvaderxx wrote: Yes they have, in fact they first offered to buy a new army, paint it and then exchange it with the one they had already done. So the customer could keep it in the meantime.
Someone else is equally out of touch with this issue, it seems...
Yes and that some one is apparently you, go back watch the original videos, the reason the OP did not take this offer was because he did not wanted to deal with the delay ordering this models from FW and have them delivered would cause.
Vader, see below.
Anyways, to be back on topic. I'm just glad Tene is getting a decent repaint now. He's practically paid for a room or two in a house by now with all this business, to put things into scale.
Actually forge world ups and takes down stuff fairly regular it seems. When I first went on there to "buy" Tenebre's army to get an idea of the cost, the Bale Taurus and Drazhoath were down but the flame elemental giant was there. Now the giant is missing and the Bale Taurus and Draz are up. So it would be even more difficult getting all the correct models (especially in a timely manner) then I'd originally thought.
xxvaderxx wrote: Please i dont give a rats ass about btp. But i do really get offended when righteous indignation is misrepresented as facts.
Somebody give Vader a mirror.
Exalted. This is a criminal fraud case, not some stupid schoolhouse feud. You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers, and his own employees.
What I found odd about the video, not that MWG put it out, because obviously it was a sponsored video, but the wild fluctuation in quality with their showcase. I think some of the models at the end looked really good, but again, that Land Raider was pathetic. If they didn't have such a wild variation in quality, I think they could be a halfway decent painting company. That and fix their communication
xxvaderxx wrote: Please i dont give a rats ass about btp. But i do really get offended when righteous indignation is misrepresented as facts.
Somebody give Vader a mirror.
Exalted. This is a criminal fraud case, not some stupid schoolhouse feud. You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers, and his own employees.
Im white knighting factual information, BTP can go feth them selves.
jreilly89 wrote: What I found odd about the video, not that MWG put it out, because obviously it was a sponsored video, but the wild fluctuation in quality with their showcase. I think some of the models at the end looked really good, but again, that Land Raider was pathetic. If they didn't have such a wild variation in quality, I think they could be a halfway decent painting company. That and fix their communication
In all honestly, everything in that video looks pathetic.
xxvaderxx wrote: Please i dont give a rats ass about btp. But i do really get offended when righteous indignation is misrepresented as facts.
Somebody give Vader a mirror.
Exalted. This is a criminal fraud case, not some stupid schoolhouse feud. You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers,and his own employees.
I'm curious, how has Shawn ripped off his own employees? Please bring me up to speed.
jreilly89 wrote: What I found odd about the video, not that MWG put it out, because obviously it was a sponsored video, but the wild fluctuation in quality with their showcase. I think some of the models at the end looked really good, but again, that Land Raider was pathetic. If they didn't have such a wild variation in quality, I think they could be a halfway decent painting company. That and fix their communication
To be honest, MWG is like the soap scum at the top of the drain. They're slowly circling the drain until they are out of sight. MWG has been dying since their store closed.
xxvaderxx wrote: Please i dont give a rats ass about btp. But i do really get offended when righteous indignation is misrepresented as facts.
Somebody give Vader a mirror.
Exalted. This is a criminal fraud case, not some stupid schoolhouse feud. You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers,and his own employees.
I'm curious, how has Shawn ripped off his own employees? Please bring me up to speed.
The fact that he pays them minimum wage, shuts them off from their clients and prior employee (Spencer,) testimony on Ten's youtube videos? Just food for thought but, if an employee admits stealing models so that Shawn wouldn't sell them off, it's kinda sketchy all around. I thought we already established this company is complete garbage in the way they communicate and treat people. Anyways, that's all I was referring to. In my eyes it's really boinking them. Sure them getting paid isn't by definition ripping them off but, the amount of wage in question is garbage for a commission painter. Rip into that sentence all you like, it was worded a bit too powerfully but, as I said in the last sentence, the painters should be treated better IMO, in BTP's videos they seem like they are worthless peons in the background, or being tossed from project to project and kept in the dark. Other horribly bad things too, involving his kickstarter or some indiegogo crud.
xxvaderxx wrote: Please i dont give a rats ass about btp. But i do really get offended when righteous indignation is misrepresented as facts.
Somebody give Vader a mirror.
Exalted. This is a criminal fraud case, not some stupid schoolhouse feud. You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers, and his own employees.
Im white knighting factual information
No you aren't, you're being deliberately obtuse to score pedant points. It makes you read like an absolute arse.
xxvaderxx wrote: Please i dont give a rats ass about btp. But i do really get offended when righteous indignation is misrepresented as facts.
Somebody give Vader a mirror.
Exalted. This is a criminal fraud case, not some stupid schoolhouse feud. You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers,and his own employees.
I'm curious, how has Shawn ripped off his own employees? Please bring me up to speed.
He committed tax fraud by paying him employees as contractors when they did not meet the legal definition of doing so.
By doing this he also tried skirting around the legally required full time employee benefits he has to pay as a employer in his state. Meaning he also broke Labour laws.
This all came out when he tried to get money using Kickstarter from former employees.
xxvaderxx wrote: Please i dont give a rats ass about btp. But i do really get offended when righteous indignation is misrepresented as facts.
Somebody give Vader a mirror.
Exalted. This is a criminal fraud case, not some stupid schoolhouse feud. You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers,and his own employees.
I'm curious, how has Shawn ripped off his own employees? Please bring me up to speed.
He committed tax fraud by paying him employees as contractors when they did not meet the legal definition of doing so.
By doing this he also tried skirting around the legally required full time employee benefits he has to pay as a employer in his state. Meaning he also broke Labour laws.
This all came out when he tried to get money using Kickstarter from former employees.
Thanks, I tried to remember it all but, I couldn't. I thought I was going to look the fool.
Hey can we put our long quote chains in spoilers to help out everyone loading the thread from their mobile/keep it tidy for the mods? I just wanna see this topic last for a while, at least until ten shows us his newly painted plastic crack.
If this is what MWG call quality and they're happy to recommend them, I'm so glad I live thousands of miles away and have nothing to do with them. By the way did they really paint lions metallic gold??
By the by, Winterdyne do you take commissions for single characters that aren't complicated? With all the stuff going on I feel like I should have a standard in my army to show people what a pro painted figure looks like.
Edit: Ouch... Uk. Nevermind, I might just want to paint him myself and strip the paint when I get better later...
Flippa wrote: If this is what MWG call quality and they're happy to recommend them, I'm so glad I live thousands of miles away and have nothing to do with them. By the way did they really paint lions metallic gold??
Spoiler:
About the metallic gold lions, if thats what the client wanted (which we dont know), then its not really BTPs fault.
Flippa wrote: If this is what MWG call quality and they're happy to recommend them, I'm so glad I live thousands of miles away and have nothing to do with them. By the way did they really paint lions metallic gold??
[spoiler]
About the metallic gold lions, if thats what the client wanted (which we dont know), then its not really BTPs fault.
Who in their right mind would. Even if they did, how come you didn't mention the client wanting horrific blue on the land raider and wonky lines?? Or the big fat thing (don't know what it is) maybe the client requested it to look like it had been painted by a 5 year old. These are showcase figures for MWG and I highly doubt MWG would want metallic lions or wonky land raiders.
Flippa wrote: If this is what MWG call quality and they're happy to recommend them, I'm so glad I live thousands of miles away and have nothing to do with them. By the way did they really paint lions metallic gold??
Stormwall wrote: You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers, and his own employees.
Ugh, I hate to say this, but as a point of order, did they actually 'rip off' Kickstarter?
From the looks of it here, the campaign didn't fund, which means they didn't get any money pledged by backers.
Which isn't to say that they might not have been trying, or misled people during it, I don't know, I'm merely going on what has been said about that project in the course of this discussion, which has been less than favourable, but since it didn't fund they didn't get any of the money, which means they didn't actually 'rip off' anyone there, correct?
Not for lack of trying perhaps, but at the end of the day, zero money changed hands for that campaign by the looks of it. Though someone said that they claimed to have found another form of revenue/income, but the last updates to it aren't showing anything about that.
Again, not trying to defend them or their actions. Merely pointing out that we should note what they've actually done, and it doesn't seem like the KS campaign got them the money they sought from those backers.
Flippa wrote: If this is what MWG call quality and they're happy to recommend them, I'm so glad I live thousands of miles away and have nothing to do with them. By the way did they really paint lions metallic gold??
[spoiler]
About the metallic gold lions, if thats what the client wanted (which we dont know), then its not really BTPs fault.
Who in their right mind would. Even if they did, how come you didn't mention the client wanting horrific blue on the land raider and wonky lines?? Or the big fat thing (don't know what it is) maybe the client requested it to look like it had been painted by a 5 year old. These are showcase figures for MWG and I highly doubt MWG would want metallic lions or wonky land raiders.
Why can't you admit it's shoddy work?
Because those are like you said terribly done, also I believe these are not minis BTP made for MWG. Just images BTP gave MWG for this promo vid (which is weird because most of these minis suck). But yeah you cant really fault a commission service for a certain color choice if you dont know what the client wanted.
Stormwall wrote: You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers, and his own employees.
Ugh, I hate to say this, but as a point of order, did they actually 'rip off' Kickstarter?
From the looks of it here, the campaign didn't fund, which means they didn't get any money pledged by backers.
Which isn't to say that they might not have been trying, or misled people during it, I don't know, I'm merely going on what has been said about that project in the course of this discussion, which has been less than favourable, but since it didn't fund they didn't get any of the money, which means they didn't actually 'rip off' anyone there, correct?
Not for lack of trying perhaps, but at the end of the day, zero money changed hands for that campaign by the looks of it. Though someone said that they claimed to have found another form of revenue/income, but the last updates to it aren't showing anything about that.
Again, not trying to defend them or their actions. Merely pointing out that we should note what they've actually done, and it doesn't seem like the KS campaign got them the money they sought from those backers.
Maybe he meant to say was an attempted rip off, because I mean if you look at it it was a rip off and against the KS rules I believe.
Flippa wrote: If this is what MWG call quality and they're happy to recommend them, I'm so glad I live thousands of miles away and have nothing to do with them. By the way did they really paint lions metallic gold??
[spoiler]
About the metallic gold lions, if thats what the client wanted (which we dont know), then its not really BTPs fault.
Who in their right mind would. Even if they did, how come you didn't mention the client wanting horrific blue on the land raider and wonky lines?? Or the big fat thing (don't know what it is) maybe the client requested it to look like it had been painted by a 5 year old. These are showcase figures for MWG and I highly doubt MWG would want metallic lions or wonky land raiders.
Why can't you admit it's shoddy work?
Because those are like you said terribly done, also I believe these are not minis BTP made for MWG. Just images BTP gave MWG for this promo vid (which is weird because most of these minis suck). But yeah you cant really fault a commission service for a certain color choice if you dont know what the client wanted.
also those lions were terrible even if painted gold. I see so many places to add some wash for depth on the models and a bit of highlighting, because if you look at the rest it was at least washed and had one highlight.
Gullinbursti wrote: I love the people who are now going "Well if there is only a few fails and they've done 8000 jobs, then they're fine." If my job is to press a button which turns off an MRI before it fries peoples brains, I don't get a pass when I fry a guy.
Is the occasional failure still going to happen, probably. Does that mean its an excuse? No. Also, when you find out you've failed as hard as they did with Tenebre, you do your best to make it up to the wronged person. Airbrushing for 30secs to try and use badly done OSL (unrequested, nor consulted) to cover half done painting Is about the worst thing I could imagine doing to someone's army. Not only is the person left with a badly painted army which doesn't match their envisioned scheme, it makes it ever harder to repaint/fix.
If BTP can't handle the job (9000pts is a big damn jump in one sitting), you don't take it. Hell, I specifically have never painted up a full army on commission because my enjoyment/focus level is about right for Infinity sized forces. I've painted 40k/fantasy armies for myself, but I find them more a chore so I don't do themas commissions, even for mates.
Problem is not the failure rate, it's the customer service. People don't get treated right and they don't take responsibility for their screw ups.
Because those are like you said terribly done, also I believe these are not minis BTP made for MWG. Just images BTP gave MWG for this promo vid (which is weird because most of these minis suck). But yeah you cant really fault a commission service for a certain color choice if you dont know what the client wanted.
Did you just admit it's shoddy work?
Either way, the minis BTP had in their hand were also abysmal. I went back and checked, simply awful. If I was a commission painter (not good enough) then I certainly wouldn't put my name to these and the pictures I used to advertise my products would be my best work. It doesn't add up does it??
What happened to Tenebre is like going to buy a Big Mac, I just hope it doesn't happen to you.
We should, collectively, do a video response to the paid advertisement BTP got out of MWG.
There are a lot of really bad examples of their work out there, and it's not too hard to explain what's so awful about them. A showcase of what is wrong with the product they deliver should be an appropriate and suitable response.
techsoldaten wrote: We should, collectively, do a video response to the paid advertisement BTP got out of MWG.
There are a lot of really bad examples of their work out there, and it's not too hard to explain what's so awful about them. A showcase of what is wrong with the product they deliver should be an appropriate and suitable response.
I believe there are a few people on warseer who have talked about their bad experiences and those who have messaged op about it.
I can still see comments too. They have some folks who shouldbe commended for their blind devotion, but I ccan't help but think have gone full r'tard in their comments posted applauding btps drybrushing and mwgs shilling.
FatherKnowsBest wrote: I can still see comments too. They have some folks who shouldbe commended for their blind devotion, but I ccan't help but think have gone full r'tard in their comments posted applauding btps drybrushing and mwgs shilling.
One guy thinks its all op downvoting and commenting with hundreds of accounts
I think maybe they just disabled comments for a while (and I just happen to catch it at the time)? Or they just haven't properly loaded on my browser. In any case, false alarm.
heartserenade wrote: I think maybe they just disabled comments for a while (and I just happen to catch it at the time)? Or they just haven't properly loaded on my browser. In any case, false alarm.
The comments are still rolling in
Automatically Appended Next Post: The warseer version of this thread just got closed
Flippa wrote: If this is what MWG call quality and they're happy to recommend them, I'm so glad I live thousands of miles away and have nothing to do with them. By the way did they really paint lions metallic gold??
[spoiler]
About the metallic gold lions, if thats what the client wanted (which we dont know), then its not really BTPs fault.
Who in their right mind would. Even if they did, how come you didn't mention the client wanting horrific blue on the land raider and wonky lines?? Or the big fat thing (don't know what it is) maybe the client requested it to look like it had been painted by a 5 year old. These are showcase figures for MWG and I highly doubt MWG would want metallic lions or wonky land raiders.
Why can't you admit it's shoddy work?
In regards to the metallic lions - I had somebody request exactly that for a Grenadier Amazon chariot, back in the nineties.
It is silly, it looks like crap, but it is what the client wanted.
Just had a look at the gallery ending of the "promotional video" and nearly fell out of my chair laughing. The Elf and Menoth Warjack and [insert random chapter] Space marines are worthy of an award for failure to put on neat smooth paint. The gold chariot, gold Elf and gold lions is hilarious but that could have been what the client wanted, though you have to ask WHY?
The Tau have got to be the epitome of paint by numbers, they even have the lines for you keep inside and BTP couldn't even do that, slops all over it and very little highlighting other than from the bad photography and drybrushing everywhere. And OH! the photography, blurred out of focus shots all over the place with bad lighting and composition. Some of the paint jobs look OK while the camera pans over the picture but I'd advise potential (pun intended) customers to pause each shot and have good look first.
So after all this bigging up by MWG this is what a showcase of BTP quality is? A blind man could see they are not up to the task, if you were in PR and you turned this in for a client you'd be fired on the spot a classic own goal if ever I saw one.
heartserenade wrote: I think maybe they just disabled comments for a while (and I just happen to catch it at the time)? Or they just haven't properly loaded on my browser. In any case, false alarm.
The comments are still rolling in
Automatically Appended Next Post: The warseer version of this thread just got closed
it seems all complaints about BTP eventually get closed or deleted :( which is sad and the reason i didnt know beforehand
Really Quick - I saw that one man posted on the MWG video that he has had countless things painted by BTP, and that he had videos. So me, being my curious self, decided to visit said videos and observe them for educational purposes.
Folks - I present to you what level 4 BTP painting can get you... I do feel sorry for this person because he thinks this is what constitutes a LvL 4 paint job - I wish he had gone with a more reputable one so that he can see the light.
fidel wrote: Really Quick - I saw that one man posted on the MWG video that he has had countless things painted by BTP, and that he had videos. So me, being my curious self, decided to visit said videos and observe them for educational purposes.
Folks - I present to you what level 4 BTP painting can get you... I do feel sorry for this person because he thinks this is what constitutes a LvL 4 paint job - I wish he had gone with a more reputable one so that he can see the light.
I saw that he called me a shill, if only he understood irony
Stormwall wrote: You're whiteknighting for a snake oil salesman who blatantly rips off kickstarters, customers, and his own employees.
Ugh, I hate to say this, but as a point of order, did they actually 'rip off' Kickstarter?
From the looks of it here, the campaign didn't fund, which means they didn't get any money pledged by backers.
Which isn't to say that they might not have been trying, or misled people during it, I don't know, I'm merely going on what has been said about that project in the course of this discussion, which has been less than favourable, but since it didn't fund they didn't get any of the money, which means they didn't actually 'rip off' anyone there, correct?
Not for lack of trying perhaps, but at the end of the day, zero money changed hands for that campaign by the looks of it. Though someone said that they claimed to have found another form of revenue/income, but the last updates to it aren't showing anything about that.
Again, not trying to defend them or their actions. Merely pointing out that we should note what they've actually done, and it doesn't seem like the KS campaign got them the money they sought from those backers.
I'm sorry but, didn't a whole lot of people endup sending their money to them privately after the kickstarter failed and flocked to their facebook to show support? So doesn't that kinda count? Also, when I said kickstarter I should have clarified I meant both the failed campaign they got to milk donations from and the indiegogo where you spend 1200$ to get business advice from Shawn. I am probably in the wrong, when I wrote that I hadn't had my coffee yet. I meant it is a rip off not that they had yet. The rest of the stuff I still stand by thought, shotty treatment of employees, and people like Ten who invest a antique car or house renovation into his company.
Trolls tend to come out when someone is trying to do the right thing, I feel we are all responsible.
Speaking of which, weren't there a few in this thread? You know who you are you chisling galoots.
I'm sorry I catch on fire each time I step outside from my bridge. Your threads are so lovely. In all seriousness I am going to go check the Warseer thread but, should I even bother? What is different about it? Is it basically the same thing as this one?
fidel wrote: Really Quick - I saw that one man posted on the MWG video that he has had countless things painted by BTP, and that he had videos. So me, being my curious self, decided to visit said videos and observe them for educational purposes.
Folks - I present to you what level 4 BTP painting can get you... I do feel sorry for this person because he thinks this is what constitutes a LvL 4 paint job - I wish he had gone with a more reputable one so that he can see the light.
Actually watched the video fully and wow those are terribly painted.
If it is any consolation he called me a shill as well for pointing out the bad paint job and said he saw nothing wrong with it... I guess you can't remove the beam from the eyes?
fidel wrote: Wait - I am sorry it does continue....
If it is any consolation he called me a shill as well for pointing out the bad paint job and said he saw nothing wrong with it... I guess you can't remove the beam from the eyes?
Ah I don't care that he did, it was the irony of it that made me laugh.
It certainly works for those particular models, but they're not particularly detailed models and frankly a level 2 is probably the highest paintjob you'd see any value out of on them.
There isn't much opportunity for freehand work, and I think anything lvl4 and above would basically mandate freehand work at the prices being asked.
Grey Templar wrote: There isn't much opportunity for freehand work, and I think anything lvl4 and above would basically mandate freehand work at the prices being asked.
Tenebre said earlier that BTP charged $17 minimum for infantry and much more for heroes... I assume that $17 was for a level 4.
At $17 I wouldn't expect much more than 1 to 2 hours work, so I wouldn't be expecting more than a basic "paint between the lines with a highlight and a wash" for $17. Of course a lot of Ten's models looked really shoddy like they were half an hour work
It's a shame BTP have taken down their level guide, we can rag on BTP's quality but it's not really relevant unless we know what they actually advertise they will do at each level.
Complaining about low quality in and of itself I see as largely without merit because we know BTP aren't targeting people who want competition winning models, they're targeting people who don't have the time and/or lack the skill to even paint we would consider "average table top quality".
The relevant thing is are they producing what was agreed with the client (and in this case, no they haven't) and are they producing a quality in keeping with their advertised quality which frankly isn't very high to begin with (in this case it looks like they haven't but we're lacking in recent reference material to know what actually constitutes a minimum to be considered "level 4".
There's little point in codifying levels of highlighting, etc. If I'm asked to paint red woolen hose (leggings) for a competition, I'll use exactly the same 3 mix drybrush/stipple and line work i do on tabletop stuff. I might be more careful with tidying up line highlights, but it works for th effect needed. If I'm asked to paint a red silk shirt, things get different, quickly.
At the end of the day it's time you're paying for and some things will work in that time frame and some won't.
As to that video of the puppets war stuff, it looks ok for what he'll have paid on first look. Yeah perhaps not as vibrant as some other place may have been, but (and it's 8am head here) it doesn't to me look as bad as to make it worth insulting whoever did it. Several cups of tea later, yeah, it's not great - but it looks more like unskilled or rushed work rather than doing anything different to what I might do. I mentioned drybrushing / stippling cloth - that does work but you need to do it properly. I dunno how BTP does their training, but perhaps that is something they need to look into.
The issue isn't the number of jobs BTP has done 'well' its how they handled their failures. Period. They clearly took on a job they didn't have the skill to do.
The puppetwars video clearly shows BTP market. Ugh everything looks dry brushed in craft paint
Grey Templar wrote: There isn't much opportunity for freehand work, and I think anything lvl4 and above would basically mandate freehand work at the prices being asked.
Tenebre said earlier that BTP charged $17 minimum for infantry and much more for heroes... I assume that $17 was for a level 4.
At $17 I wouldn't expect much more than 1 to 2 hours work, so I wouldn't be expecting more than a basic "paint between the lines with a highlight and a wash" for $17. Of course a lot of Ten's models looked really shoddy like they were half an hour work
It's a shame BTP have taken down their level guide, we can rag on BTP's quality but it's not really relevant unless we know what they actually advertise they will do at each level.
Complaining about low quality in and of itself I see as largely without merit because we know BTP aren't targeting people who want competition winning models, they're targeting people who don't have the time and/or lack the skill to even paint we would consider "average table top quality".
The relevant thing is are they producing what was agreed with the client (and in this case, no they haven't) and are they producing a quality in keeping with their advertised quality which frankly isn't very high to begin with (in this case it looks like they haven't but we're lacking in recent reference material to know what actually constitutes a minimum to be considered "level 4".
So i asked them specifically what levels to get to have a showcase level army. they said 4/6. They set the price. But honestly 2 hours on a single chaos dwarf he should have some details. Their old guide stated "All detailed will be picked out". My models had no eyes, teeth, rivets, leather connections, belts, jewelery, or even beards. just "osl" sprayed over sloppy dry brush.
Here is one of my WiP touched up bull centaurs (which were the best work bt did in the army). on the left. Notice the details. I paid BTP $100 for the one of the right. (level 4). The one on the left was done with the exact same picture and description i gave BTP. The touched op one completely captures what i wanted combined with the tamurkhan artwork. I love the touched up one btw. And yes i really wanted that much blood.
Wow, it really is some difference. I'd have easily believed the one on the right was a very early WIP, for the artist checking what the customer thought of a particular colour.
That does look a lot better and closer to what you outlined. I am horrified that's what they charged $100 to paint. The OSL does look a bit more out of place now though.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: That does look a lot better and closer to what you outlined. I am horrified that's what they charged $100 to paint. The OSL does look a bit more out of place now though.
yeah but i can ignore that since its a free touch up job and to remove it would require an entire repaint... and the blood draws me eye
Way more menacing. The miniature really benefits from the additional colour - while I PERSONALLY don't like the gore, if fits the miniature and the pose very well.
Can't say the OSL bothers me in the slightest since it's way more subtle now.
I've always wondered why the horns were glowing in the BTP version..
As a comparison, I just gave the shipping-ok to a Ravenwing Fire Raptor I gave to Den of Imagination. Thing looks absolutely awesome (expect a review on their services once it arrives). I'm tempted to ask BTP for a quote, just to see how much it would cost me to "BTP" Standard... would be interesting, no?
BTP deserves all the scorn this thread can muster.
The worst part for me is the gakky cork bases. Lava bases are so very passe at this point. Of course they fit the theme of the CDs but to do them so sloppily is just....bad. There needs to be way more rock than lava, preferably in some sort of layered effect not just cork glued to base then painted red "DURRR!"
I think BTP have fallen into the really bad habit I see people getting into of just using an airbrush for everything. Yes it's easy, yes it is fast, but without traditional brushwork you get this crap.
I think BTP have fallen into the really bad habit I see people getting into of just using an airbrush for everything. Yes it's easy, yes it is fast, but without traditional brushwork you get this crap.
Thats the problem BTP have. Airbrushing can be fast, but to do it well isn't easy.
To splash a bit of paint on, yes that is easy, but you get what you see in those pictures when you do that.
Someone like Giraldez can get stunning results from an airbrush, and he at times even makes it look easy, but its far from that.
I think BTP have fallen into the really bad habit I see people getting into of just using an airbrush for everything. Yes it's easy, yes it is fast, but without traditional brushwork you get this crap.
Thats the problem BTP have. Airbrushing can be fast, but to do it well isn't easy.
To splash a bit of paint on, yes that is easy, but you get what you see in those pictures when you do that.
Someone like Giraldez can get stunning results from an airbrush, and he at times even makes it look easy, but its far from that.
Lets not get carried away, airbrush is an easy and time effective tool. It does not completely replace the brush, but it does most of its heavy lifting. Regarding the BTP minis, they might not be 9k work of work, but the airbrush application was fairly well done, like in those centaurs pictures. The problem is not that they used the AB, but that they left it at that with out finishing the fine detail with a regular brush.
I think BTP have fallen into the really bad habit I see people getting into of just using an airbrush for everything. Yes it's easy, yes it is fast, but without traditional brushwork you get this crap.
Thats the problem BTP have. Airbrushing can be fast, but to do it well isn't easy.
To splash a bit of paint on, yes that is easy, but you get what you see in those pictures when you do that.
Someone like Giraldez can get stunning results from an airbrush, and he at times even makes it look easy, but its far from that.
Lets not get carried away, airbrush is an easy and time effective tool. It does not completely replace the brush, but it does most of its heavy lifting. Regarding the BTP minis, they might not be 9k work of work, but the airbrush application was fairly well done, like in those centaurs pictures. The problem is not that they used the AB, but that they left it at that with out finishing the fine detail with a regular brush.
That isn't even 40 dollars worth of work let alone 100. No details picked out, terrible ols, what the hell were they doing with the horns?
I think BTP have fallen into the really bad habit I see people getting into of just using an airbrush for everything. Yes it's easy, yes it is fast, but without traditional brushwork you get this crap.
Thats the problem BTP have. Airbrushing can be fast, but to do it well isn't easy.
To splash a bit of paint on, yes that is easy, but you get what you see in those pictures when you do that.
Someone like Giraldez can get stunning results from an airbrush, and he at times even makes it look easy, but its far from that.
Lets not get carried away, airbrush is an easy and time effective tool. It does not completely replace the brush, but it does most of its heavy lifting. Regarding the BTP minis, they might not be 9k work of work, but the airbrush application was fairly well done, like in those centaurs pictures. The problem is not that they used the AB, but that they left it at that with out finishing the fine detail with a regular brush.
That isn't even 40 dollars worth of work let alone 100. No details picked out, terrible ols, what the hell were they doing with the horns?
That is not the fault of the airbrush thou, that is an artistic call, a gakky one, but would have been just as gakky with a regular brush.
Tenebre did you like the BTP bull centaurs better than the hobgoblins and slave girls? Just curious because in the comparison post you said you thought those were the best BTP did. But I thought the slave girls and hobgoblins were better looking in the first vid.
On a side note, that new bull centaur looks really sweet, the gore looks really good on the model. But I'm not sure if the gore would fit the regular dwarves very well as they have a more static pose. But maybe your touch up artist can convince me otherwise.
Between the basing and the terrible OSL someone needs beaten with a hammer. That might be the worst OSL I've ever seen. What's going on with the axe? Is that OSL or is it supposed to be red? My god man.
I also can figure out why the skulls are the same color as the skin.
The one on the left is very solid not amazing but its lights out compared to the BTP one.
Seriously that basing is bad. If its supposed to be lava where is the shades of red, orange and yellow in it?
I commented that I didn't think the models BTP churned out were too bad from the original videos (albeit not what you asked for, which was the big issue for me). But I hadn't gotten to those bull centaur guys. Wow. BTP didn't even bother painting the skulls in the beard at all. That's an embarrassing level of quality. Apparently, the only bad part I got to was the pink feet. They should be ashamed of quality like this.
Grey Templar wrote: There isn't much opportunity for freehand work, and I think anything lvl4 and above would basically mandate freehand work at the prices being asked.
Tenebre said earlier that BTP charged $17 minimum for infantry and much more for heroes... I assume that $17 was for a level 4.
At $17 I wouldn't expect much more than 1 to 2 hours work, so I wouldn't be expecting more than a basic "paint between the lines with a highlight and a wash" for $17. Of course a lot of Ten's models looked really shoddy like they were half an hour work
It's a shame BTP have taken down their level guide, we can rag on BTP's quality but it's not really relevant unless we know what they actually advertise they will do at each level.
Complaining about low quality in and of itself I see as largely without merit because we know BTP aren't targeting people who want competition winning models, they're targeting people who don't have the time and/or lack the skill to even paint we would consider "average table top quality".
The relevant thing is are they producing what was agreed with the client (and in this case, no they haven't) and are they producing a quality in keeping with their advertised quality which frankly isn't very high to begin with (in this case it looks like they haven't but we're lacking in recent reference material to know what actually constitutes a minimum to be considered "level 4".
So i asked them specifically what levels to get to have a showcase level army. they said 4/6. They set the price. But honestly 2 hours on a single chaos dwarf he should have some details. Their old guide stated "All detailed will be picked out". My models had no eyes, teeth, rivets, leather connections, belts, jewelery, or even beards. just "osl" sprayed over sloppy dry brush.
Here is one of my WiP touched up bull centaurs (which were the best work bt did in the army). on the left. Notice the details. I paid BTP $100 for the one of the right. (level 4). The one on the left was done with the exact same picture and description i gave BTP. The touched op one completely captures what i wanted combined with the tamurkhan artwork. I love the touched up one btw. And yes i really wanted that much blood.
Wow, that is a huge difference in quality! Super excited to see what happens with the rest of your models!
Im not by any means a great painter but at least i put some attempts into my work. I don't have the money to have others paint for me and the enjoyment i get out of seeing my own work come to fruition is enough in itself. (though time is getting harder to find) What BTP did with their money and time is anybody guess but it wasn't put into Tenebre's models.
Proof of my own work:
Spoiler:
Tenebre, that new touched up Bull Centaur looks absolutely brutal! The studio thats working on those miniatures is really doing a very nice job of work on the touch ups! I cant wait to see the rest of the army done up
the new Bull Centaur is such a huge improvement, and really highlights the lack of detail painting in the BTP version...
they really screwed you hard...
that photo of the two side by side should be exhibit A in a case against them...
the lack of detail work done is really incredible...
i don't see how thay could have sent that out, without the teeth, eyes, skulls, and jewelry even basecoated...
the lack of gore is one thing, but not even basecoating the details is a whole other realm of "screw what the customer asked for, let's call this done"...
the mind boggles...
these guys need to be taken to court, for sure...
So i asked them specifically what levels to get to have a showcase level army. they said 4/6. They set the price. But honestly 2 hours on a single chaos dwarf he should have some details. Their old guide stated "All detailed will be picked out". My models had no eyes, teeth, rivets, leather connections, belts, jewelery, or even beards. just "osl" sprayed over sloppy dry brush.
Here is one of my WiP touched up bull centaurs (which were the best work bt did in the army). on the left. Notice the details. I paid BTP $100 for the one of the right. (level 4). The one on the left was done with the exact same picture and description i gave BTP. The touched op one completely captures what i wanted combined with the tamurkhan artwork. I love the touched up one btw. And yes i really wanted that much blood.
@tenebre - The difference is remarkable. I keep looking at the comparison and it's a world of difference.
What really sets this off is the details. The horns, the beard, the highlighting on the hooves, the teeth, it just looks 100% more alive than the original attempt.
I know this isn't even done, but I am so glad to see you are getting closer to your goal. I am so happy for you right now.
Get a load of this! Sorry if it has already been posted. I can't believe what Matt is doing for BTP. He is hurting his own fan base and doesn't know it!
That did indeed pop up a few pages back. My reading of it was that it was indeed a sponsored video ad, so BTP cashed in their "points" and got advertised. Possibly to offset the bad juju floating around following ten's videos. That said, "We only do this for companies that we'd recommend ourselves..." so ehhhhhh... there have been several posts of the dubious quality of said miniatures, complete with stills. In particular the blue/white land raider comes to mind as a point of facepalming.
I think it is also a good thing that it should now be obvious that BTP is 'good' for their "Level 1" only service, and maybe not for anything above that.
I know exactly what MWGing have set up with their program for painting companies. However, it is very obvious the relationship they have with Shawn. I find him to be quite annoying and uninspiring because of the way he dealt with my project. He basically said that not everyone's project turns out great! No excuses! I love MWGing and their great batreps but come on Matt.
Well, painting miniatures is a mystical process. Sometimes you get a half decently painted army, sometimes the gods are displeased and a painter is dragged screaming in to a dimension of unknowable horrors.
Obviously a company that does the volume that BTP does is going to have a high number of angered paint god related fatalities and the lower quality of work on a project that those entail. If there's a better way to paint an army than to put it in a box and have a poorly paid nineteen year old sacrifice a pigeon on top of it then I'm sure Shawn is all ears.
It's a shame BTP have taken down their level guide, we can rag on BTP's quality but it's not really relevant unless we know what they actually advertise they will do at each level.
When were they taken down? And where on the site were they located. Anyone who can answer those two questions should be able to find them pretty easily:
Ramos Asura wrote: That did indeed pop up a few pages back. My reading of it was that it was indeed a sponsored video ad, so BTP cashed in their "points" and got advertised. Possibly to offset the bad juju floating around following ten's videos.
That said, "We only do this for companies that we'd recommend ourselves..." so ehhhhhh... there have been several posts of the dubious quality of said miniatures, complete with stills. In particular the blue/white land raider comes to mind as a point of facepalming.
This. I'll be honest, for saying that BTP is such a good company, he seemed pretty devoid of passion. If I really wanted to sponsor a company like that, I'd put much more emotion in my pitch
When were they taken down? And where on the site were they located. Anyone who can answer those two questions should be able to find them pretty easily:
Ramos Asura wrote: That did indeed pop up a few pages back. My reading of it was that it was indeed a sponsored video ad, so BTP cashed in their "points" and got advertised. Possibly to offset the bad juju floating around following ten's videos.
That said, "We only do this for companies that we'd recommend ourselves..." so ehhhhhh... there have been several posts of the dubious quality of said miniatures, complete with stills. In particular the blue/white land raider comes to mind as a point of facepalming.
This. I'll be honest, for saying that BTP is such a good company, he seemed pretty devoid of passion. If I really wanted to sponsor a company like that, I'd put much more emotion in my pitch
When I watched it, there seemed to be some irony in the endorsement. Matt did say BTP is a place he would personally recommend, then went on to give a slightly lackluster endorsement. He kept pointing to what he called his favorite models and none of them were really exceptional, the only real standout was the Nurgle Heldrake (which, incidentally, is really only clever because of the assembly.) The models at the end of the video were less than spectacular, you would think he'd be showing off their best work. His points about their production process and the fact he's toured their studios rang hollow, and he did not do much to make the case it all results in enough quality to justify their prices.
Also, there was the length of the video. 8 - 9 minutes is an odd amount of time for an endorsement. Not that there's a proper amount of time for such a thing, but there were a few things missings that I would have expected to hear if he was really enthusiastic about the service.
I have listened to some of Matt's commentary over the years, he can be very articulate when he wants to be and make a good point supported by evidence for things he is passionate about. This video did not come close to that level of argument. If he was railing to BTP's defense, I would have expected him to hear some evidence to support the view that BTP is a good general service that delivers good results to the community at large. Instead of providing details about their production process (which he states he has seen personally) or talking in more depth about the experiences other people have had with them, he only focused on the things BTP has provided to MWG. This is kind of telling. He's asking viewers to rely on what the service has done for MWG and the 8,000 projects figure as evidence for the quality of their work without really bringing in examples of those 8,000 projects. There's a hole in his presentation that can't be ignored.
This makes me wonder how persuasive his message was, and I tried to put myself in the shoes of someone deciding whether or not to use their service. If I was looking at that video, the BTP website, and a spreadsheet that lists prices, would the video really make the difference for me in a way where I would want to buy a service from BTP? I don't think so, there wasn't anything there that would have made me think BTP is a standout service.
This video doesn't really register as a compelling ad for me. When MWG announced they were looking for people with good BTP experiences, I took it as a response to fair criticism of the company (and an indirect attack on tenebre) but now not so much. Maybe Matt wasn't able to get enough people to say nice things about them in his letter, but there was nothing in that video that contradicted the criticisms being directed at BTP. At a substance level, I don't see this as a win for BTP.
But there are some people who will make decisions without considering the substance of what was said, and the video will serve to direct some people to BTP's page. MWG has a large (not huge) group of followers, which means it's probably safe to say the video is going to be effective as link bait. But it is safe to say this is very expensive link bait. After doing a little research, BTP probably could have generated much more traffic at a lower cost through traditional SEO techniques and by making effective use of Google Adwords. Instead, they have incurred the cost of giving MWG a lot of models that they spent time and effort converting and painting to get enough 'points' to do this ad.
I was wondering what would be more cost effective, reaching out to a network with around 150k followers for a paid endorsement, or getting that same number of people to come to a website through search engine marketing. Given some of the current CPC rates for keyword phrases such as 'miniature painting service,' 'commission painters,' etc, I estimate the cost to get about 150k people to come to a site over a 6 month period would be around $500 in online advertising (the rates are not high for those terms and phrases, and there's no need to be the top link when people are comparison shopping. You could actually come in at $0.01 per click and still get to those numbers in a relatively short amount of time.)
I am sure someone could argue the endorsement itself is going to lead to higher conversion rates on that traffic, and maybe that's true. But how much does it cost BTP to actually get that conversion through endorsements like this? Based on what tenebre had to say about the process of finding BTP, I am willing to bet the cost to bring paying customers in through organic searches is much, much less than the cost of cultivating this relationship with MWG, probably pennies to the dollar. Just look at the number of models being shown off in that video and think about what it must have cost to get someone to convert and paint them. Matt did not show off all the stuff they have gotten from BTP, and there's also the sunk costs in appearances / sponsorships of things like Valhalla (so people will think you are one of them.) Making a completely OOMA guess about BTP's costs of operations, getting a decent ROI off ads like this means BTP would need to be getting around $300k in business back from MWG on an annual basis, and I don't see that happening.
So, a few observations to soothe the nerves of anyone concerned about the endorsement video:
1) It is hard to consider this video a win for BTP based on the substance. It's a discussion about what the service has done for MWG that only touches on the benefits to the community with unprovable assertions (i.e. "8000 projects - they must be doing something right.") The argument lacks merit at all sorts of levels, and would probably not be the thing that pushes anyone over the edge to do business with BTP.
2) Financially, this video was very expensive for BTP. There are much more effective forms of advertising than securing endorsements that rely on providing a service to the endorser. It takes about 5 minutes of research on Google to find more effective ways to reach out to much larger audiences who are probably more motivated to spend money on painting services.
3) The ROI on this video is likely unjustifiable at any level. Happy to be proven wrong here, but the sunk costs that got BTP to the point where this could be produced probably don't translate into a profit sufficient to justify this kind of marketing activity. This is true unless there is something completely shady going on, which is also a possibility.
4) @tenebre - your money went to supporting this kind of effort. You remember that when your lawyer gets an offer back from BTP. In general, when you are dealing with someone who is a weak operator of their business, they are weak negotiators for their interests and get themselves into bad situations. Be that bad situation and do not settle for less than what you are owed.
I got to about 1:40 in this video before there were so many red flags I thought I was at a racing event where every driver crashed into each other.
"...many layers of highlighting and shading, with even the primers as the possible deep recesses...."
WHAT???? I'm not the best painter by a long shot, but for me leaving primer showing is a bad thing. Every time.
Overspraying is just another way of saying "we spray on top of black to create color gradients." Which is really just another way of saying "basic color theory doesn't enter our work if we can help it."
Compare the models in that video with ones in White Dwarf to see the holes in this approach. I suppose it's right for some armies, but is it right a) as a technique for a studio or b) at the prices they charge?
Can't answer that question, it's subjective, but this seems really, really sketchy. It's the sort of thing I would expect from a Chinese injection mold manufacturer, not from a custom painting service.
heartserenade wrote: Personally, it reminded me of a video miniwargaming did a while back to advertise the values of Finecast:
That video mostly just sounded ignorant, like they didn't actually try and work with any finecast models before posting it (to know how many small bubbles that aren't obvious at first glance, the extra tabs that are often in hard to reach places, how brittle it is and how badly warped bits of it often are)
tenebre wrote: So i asked them specifically what levels to get to have a showcase level army. they said 4/6. They set the price. But honestly 2 hours on a single chaos dwarf he should have some details. Their old guide stated "All detailed will be picked out". My models had no eyes, teeth, rivets, leather connections, belts, jewelery, or even beards. just "osl" sprayed over sloppy dry brush.
Here is one of my WiP touched up bull centaurs (which were the best work bt did in the army). on the left. Notice the details. I paid BTP $100 for the one of the right. (level 4). The one on the left was done with the exact same picture and description i gave BTP. The touched op one completely captures what i wanted combined with the tamurkhan artwork. I love the touched up one btw. And yes i really wanted that much blood.
I quoted this with the slightly larger version of the image that it was linking to. I have to say, the mystery studio doing the touchups have indeed salvaged it, even though as another poster mentioned, they could have done so even easier without the unwanted OSL that BTP added (like on the foot). But it looks absolutely brutal, and I think will look great as an army, and you can actually run your chaos dwarfs!!
It's amazing to me that BTP would simply not paint the skulls at all, the tusks in the mouth, any of the details in the beard, etc... the whole face looks like basecoat and drybrush and that's it with a little unfortunate OSL red catching the bottom of the beard. No details at all. This paint job should have been listed as "basecoat, drybrush" and priced accordingly.
Thairne wrote: Now, you do them unjustice.
It's "basecoat, drybrush, horrid OSL and for whatever reason glowing horns".
Those horns just keep bugging me.
McDonald's horns. They are painted like a fast food chain. More terrifying, really, but not what tenebre paid for.
The new touched-up model is incredibly good, don't get me wrong. It's just that the base still bugs me. From what I have seen so far the base is the most lackluster in all of BTP's painted models. Then again, if they're doing it for free it might be too much of a hassle?
heartserenade wrote: The new touched-up model is incredibly good, don't get me wrong. It's just that the base still bugs me. From what I have seen so far the base is the most lackluster in all of BTP's painted models. Then again, if they're doing it for free it might be too much of a hassle?
They charged me an extra $2 per base for "lava" that was not part of the model price. at least with the new paint job my eyes are not drawn to the base
heartserenade wrote: The new touched-up model is incredibly good, don't get me wrong. It's just that the base still bugs me. From what I have seen so far the base is the most lackluster in all of BTP's painted models. Then again, if they're doing it for free it might be too much of a hassle?
They charged me an extra $2 per base for "lava" that was not part of the model price. at least with the new paint job my eyes are not drawn to the base
I don't know how you've envisioned the final look of the army, but if you took the time to repaint the base in more "earthy" tones, I think that that would make the new paint job pop even more.
As it stands all those red tones on the base still draw too much attention IMO.
You could totally redo the base, but then the OSL on the models would look out of place. I think just making the lava a little better would do a ton.
Some two-brush blending with bright yellow and more subdued orange, as well as patches of black, would make the lava a little more believable. Even just a tiny bit of yellow and black spot additions would go a long way.
heartserenade wrote: Personally, it reminded me of a video miniwargaming did a while back to advertise the values of Finecast:
What is the tittle of that video? "First Impressions", if i remember correctly, they latter did a video about how they would not sell Fine cast any more because of the high failure rate.
As a new product first impressions, i would say that video is adequate, the detail in Fine Cast is and has always been awesome, like any other well done product resin, the problem has always been failure rate(miscasts), which is not immediately apparent as to be mentioned on a first impressions video.
Perhaps Shawn from BTP was upset about the quality of the endorsement and we are about to see a thread from him detailing his complaints with what MWG delivered compared to what he contracted with them to do.
It was probably removed due to the amount of commentary going on that was a mixture of calling Matt out as a shill, commending BTP for having only one army ever fall through the cracks after 8000 jobs (yeah right) and the general lack luster endorsement. I mean honestly, the "display" slide show at the end would be one of the stronger proofs to me to not use BTP. The quality was pretty much as bad as could be. (I also suspect there is a bit of back and forth happening between Matt and BTP, as mentioned above, Matt seemed to give the endorsement about as little effort as possible. I don't know what sort of deal he and Shawn have, but it did definitely feel like Matt didn't give the video his A game.)
heartserenade wrote: The new touched-up model is incredibly good, don't get me wrong. It's just that the base still bugs me. From what I have seen so far the base is the most lackluster in all of BTP's painted models. Then again, if they're doing it for free it might be too much of a hassle?
They charged me an extra $2 per base for "lava" that was not part of the model price. at least with the new paint job my eyes are not drawn to the base
Who is the "they" in this instance - BTP charged an extra $2 per base for the lava effect seen on the model on the right? Or the mystery studio would have charged that much extra to fix the lava?
I think the repaint looks good as-is, but going back and drybrushing a little orange or yellow onto the lava might make it pop more, and is something you could do later on if you decided it was worth the effort.
Perhaps Shawn from BTP was upset about the quality of the endorsement and we are about to see a thread from him detailing his complaints with what MWG delivered compared to what he contracted with them to do.
Gullinbursti wrote: It was probably removed due to the amount of commentary going on that was a mixture of calling Matt out as a shill, commending BTP for having only one army ever fall through the cracks after 8000 jobs (yeah right) and the general lack luster endorsement. I mean honestly, the "display" slide show at the end would be one of the stronger proofs to me to not use BTP. The quality was pretty much as bad as could be. (I also suspect there is a bit of back and forth happening between Matt and BTP, as mentioned above, Matt seemed to give the endorsement about as little effort as possible. I don't know what sort of deal he and Shawn have, but it did definitely feel like Matt didn't give the video his A game.)
MWG has done other endorsements, they are about the same quality. I don't think Matt has gotten the paid celebrity advertisement thing down yet.
Compare the BTP video with the one for Siege Studios and you be the judge.
Gullinbursti wrote: It was probably removed due to the amount of commentary going on that was a mixture of calling Matt out as a shill, commending BTP for having only one army ever fall through the cracks after 8000 jobs (yeah right) and the general lack luster endorsement. I mean honestly, the "display" slide show at the end would be one of the stronger proofs to me to not use BTP. The quality was pretty much as bad as could be. (I also suspect there is a bit of back and forth happening between Matt and BTP, as mentioned above, Matt seemed to give the endorsement about as little effort as possible. I don't know what sort of deal he and Shawn have, but it did definitely feel like Matt didn't give the video his A game.)
MWG has done other endorsements, they are about the same quality. I don't think Matt has gotten the paid celebrity advertisement thing down yet.
Compare the BTP video with the one for Siege Studios and you be the judge.
heartserenade wrote: The new touched-up model is incredibly good, don't get me wrong. It's just that the base still bugs me. From what I have seen so far the base is the most lackluster in all of BTP's painted models. Then again, if they're doing it for free it might be too much of a hassle?
They charged me an extra $2 per base for "lava" that was not part of the model price. at least with the new paint job my eyes are not drawn to the base
Who is the "they" in this instance - BTP charged an extra $2 per base for the lava effect seen on the model on the right? Or the mystery studio would have charged that much extra to fix the lava?
I think the repaint looks good as-is, but going back and drybrushing a little orange or yellow onto the lava might make it pop more, and is something you could do later on if you decided it was worth the effort.
BTP charged for the base. the new studio is doing all touch up work 100% free. I only mentioned that because someone asked about the basing charge.
Are those jet bikers even finished? Seems like they forgot to paint the guns on them
I am sure they are a level 7 and are supposed to look that way.
We're getting some moments of introspection from Shawn in the latest BTP video. They are insightful
A few things to note:
- At 1:19, Shawn and his man Chad are going through the list of projects to make sure everything's 'on the rails.' You can tell Chad has everything under control because he points at his eyes. He must have come on after tenebre's army shipped.
- At 1:32, Shawn has an exchange with Shannon. You can tell right away she enjoys being the subject of his videos.
- At 2:08, Shawn reminds you about that half off special on those things that the xenomorph drop pods... er, uh, seed pods. It's about 400% thicker than GW's new Tyranid thing but comes with half the sides.
- At 3:00, Shawn goes on about how he appreciates all the fans and clients, before saying it's great to come to his studio every day and he loves that this is his profession. Then he talks about how he's always seeking deeper meaning, and pauses to share a view of the fresh fallen snow through a dirty screen. Moving on, Shawn goes on to remind everyone how Blue Table Painting is improving vastly, constantly revamping and looking to give that better experience to their customers.
I trust things are improving now with Chad keeping all those things on the rails and Shannon sitting in silent judgement.
@tenebre, remember, this is the man walking around with your money. He does not strike me as the type who is good at hanging onto it. You might want to follow the advice on the following site:
Are those jet bikers even finished? Seems like they forgot to paint the guns on them
I am sure they are a level 7 and are supposed to look that way.
We're getting some moments of introspection from Shawn in the latest BTP video. They are insightful
A few things to note:
- At 1:19, Shawn and his man Chad are going through the list of projects to make sure everything's 'on the rails.' You can tell Chad has everything under control because he points at his eyes. He must have come on after tenebre's army shipped.
- At 1:32, Shawn has an exchange with Shannon. You can tell right away she enjoys being the subject of his videos.
- At 2:08, Shawn reminds you about that half off special on those things that the xenomorph drop pods... er, uh, seed pods. It's about 400% thicker than GW's new Tyranid thing but comes with half the sides.
- At 3:00, Shawn goes on about how he appreciates all the fans and clients, before saying it's great to come to his studio every day and he loves that this is his profession. Then he talks about how he's always seeking deeper meaning, and pauses to share a view of the fresh fallen snow through a dirty screen. Moving on, Shawn goes on to remind everyone how Blue Table Painting is improving vastly, constantly revamping and looking to give that better experience to their customers.
I trust things are improving now with Chad keeping all those things on the rails and Shannon sitting in silent judgement.
@tenebre, remember, this is the man walking around with your money. He does not strike me as the type who is good at hanging onto it. You might want to follow the advice on the following site:
@tenebre, remember, this is the man walking around with your money. He does not strike me as the type who is good at hanging onto it. You might want to follow the advice on the following site:
I never said that, and have no reason to assume so.
But the man in that video has a lot on his mind and it ain't all good. If he was into me for 5-figures, I would be watching every financial indicator I can.
heartserenade wrote: Personally, it reminded me of a video miniwargaming did a while back to advertise the values of Finecast:
What is the tittle of that video? "First Impressions", if i remember correctly, they latter did a video about how they would not sell Fine cast any more because of the high failure rate.
As a new product first impressions, i would say that video is adequate, the detail in Fine Cast is and has always been awesome, like any other well done product resin, the problem has always been failure rate(miscasts), which is not immediately apparent as to be mentioned on a first impressions video.
i beg to differ...
the detail on Finecast is not awesome, it is missing...
i have my first three Finecast minis here, and they are only two months old...
while i was impressed with the look of the minis on the sprue, and thought i would have to eat all of my negative words about the material over the last few years, upon closer inspection, the casts are missing details that a metal model would never lose...
hoses, corners, and fingers seem to be especially bad...
Sergeant Chronus suffers badly from this...
the bendy staff on Chief Librarian Tigurius is also a concern...
the bubbles are not as bad as previous examples i had seen, but are still a problem...
not to drag this further off-topic, but i will be doing a review of these models before, and during, the painting...
these guys in no way compare to any of the "well done product resin" that i have from Studio McVey, Rackham, Ilyad, and a bunch of other companies that actually did do well with their products, and for the same price, or less, than Finecast...
I never said that, and have no reason to assume so.
But the man in that video has a lot on his mind and it ain't all good. If he was into me for 5-figures, I would be watching every financial indicator I can.
Well you certainly implied it by posting a link to a government resource on how to find out if someone is bankrupt.
I never said that, and have no reason to assume so.
But the man in that video has a lot on his mind and it ain't all good. If he was into me for 5-figures, I would be watching every financial indicator I can.
Well you certainly implied it by posting a link to a government resource on how to find out if someone is bankrupt.
I think he was saying to check to make sure that BTP wasn't on the list of businesses that are filing for bankruptcy
While some discussion of the topic is of course fine, let's not speculate about bankruptcy / spend too long discussing that without evidence indicating such. Thanks.
Finances and family issues are what guys his age tend to worry about the most, and they are typically tied together. Pacer is just this wonderful resource for keeping tabs and everyone should know about it. I don't have a resource for tracking nationwide divorce filings, but there's probably one out there if anyone wants to share.
What do you think is on his mind?
I really don't think we need to be looking into someone's marital status, please and thank you. We know he's a husband and father, we do not need to be willing on something unpleasant in some ghoulish fashion, thanks.
I also don't wish Blue Table, as an employer or business, bankruptcy. I just wish he'd do some damage control, process improvement and be more willing to fall on his sword in regard the lack of quality with this case.
I think we're really better served taking the moral highground here and concentrating on issues of business practice and quality, not veering into any sort of muckraking.
That's well said, MGS! I think the main thing here is that tenebre gets restitution. The problem, of course, is that that restitution is not coming from BTP, but from an outside source, and that he's having to go through the courts to get any traction with BTP itself.
I think they would be much better off making a video directly addressing this failed commission, giving a partial refund, and basically admitting their wrongdoing and how they plan to improve going forward. They haven't done that, so they can't get a full pass, but your point is well taken that I don't think it's good to wish for them to fail... I do wish for them to "see the light", though, and reform their process which is obviously extremely lacking (as evidenced by this thread, and other testimonials that have come up regularly, but just not gotten this much attention).
Finances and family issues are what guys his age tend to worry about the most, and they are typically tied together. Pacer is just this wonderful resource for keeping tabs and everyone should know about it. I don't have a resource for tracking nationwide divorce filings, but there's probably one out there if anyone wants to share.
What do you think is on his mind?
I really don't think we need to be looking into someone's marital status, please and thank you. We know he's a husband and father, we do not need to be willing on something unpleasant in some ghoulish fashion, thanks.
I also don't wish Blue Table, as an employer or business, bankruptcy. I just wish he'd do some damage control, process improvement and be more willing to fall on his sword in regard the lack of quality with this case.
I think we're really better served taking the moral highground here and concentrating on issues of business practice and quality, not veering into any sort of muckraking.
Areally you telling me I bought all these pitchforks for nothing?
RiTides wrote: That's well said, MGS! I think the main thing here is that tenebre gets restitution. The problem, of course, is that that restitution is not coming from BTP, but from an outside source, and that he's having to go through the courts to get any traction with BTP itself.
I think they would be much better off making a video directly addressing this failed commission, giving a partial refund, and basically admitting their wrongdoing and how they plan to improve going forward. They haven't done that, so they can't get a full pass, but your point is well taken that I don't think it's good to wish for them to fail... I do wish for them to "see the light", though, and reform their process which is obviously extremely lacking (as evidenced by this thread, and other testimonials that have come up regularly, but just not gotten this much attention).
It all reeks of a company taking on too much, to me. This is always going to be a cottage industry but Shawn seems to see himself as the Henry Ford of the painted army revolution. I've watched the Blue Table videos for a long long time, back to their start out and he's always been a larger than life character (and one I was fond of for a long time) but after a while seemed to start introducing some quite 'out there' ideas about business and politics and personal development, none of which really have much place in a 'we paint toy soldiers' online company. There's a lot of 'If I build it, they will come' and other lofty notions about clothing lines and becoming the next Adepticon with his valhalla event and lots and lots of other schemes and odd business mantras. Whilst all of this higher vision scheming is going on, he's seemingly pushed the painting of armies (the thing that pays the rent) into a conveyor belt of 'churn it out asap and grab the cash' presumably to engage in pursuing these grand ideas...
He needs to get his house in order, remember who's paying both him and his employees salaries, eat a metric ton of GENUINE humble pie (not the passive aggressive 'I'm sorry you're not happy with the product', but actual 'wow, y'know, we let the ball slip and now we need to actually fix this') , not engage in denial and defense and do some of that soul searching he's constantly alluding to about the actual product, what his company produces, what other companies are producing and if he can really meet the claims he makes. The defense of 'But I'm a dreamer/visionary/rulebreaker/entrepreneur' won't matter for gak if you're a) using your immediate profit to dabble in these potentially disastrous ventures and b) forgetting what puts the food on the table and more importantly why you loved it in the first place before you decided you were bigger than it and want to make your legend. You can make your legend on a buffered, safe amount of saved profit when you know your business is running both efficiently and that quality is assured.
Right now, with what I'm seeing, the quality is far from assured and worse still, we have a business owner in complete denial over it. Blue Table, this is your wake up call, the OP will simply not use your services again, but how you've behaved has been viewed by hundreds if not thousands on this forum alone, coupled with it's spill over onto other forums, MWG's youtube and then the spread of word of mouth.
This should have you panicking, Blue Table, it should have you reacting, not with defensive horse gak like you pulled with MWG's 'endorsement video', but with actual, solid quality control changes and willingness to improve. Re-examine your current standards, compare them to how you used to put out armies and how your competitors put out armies.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step to overcoming it.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It all reeks of a company taking on too much, to me. This is always going to be a cottage industry but Shawn seems to see himself as the Henry Ford of the painted army revolution. I've watched the Blue Table videos for a long long time, back to their start out and he's always been a larger than life character (and one I was fond of for a long time) but after a while seemed to start introducing some quite 'out there' ideas about business and politics and personal development, none of which really have much place in a 'we paint toy soldiers' online company. There's a lot of 'If I build it, they will come' and other lofty notions about clothing lines and becoming the next Adepticon with his valhalla event and lots and lots of other schemes and odd business mantras. Whilst all of this higher vision scheming is going on, he's seemingly pushed the painting of armies (the thing that pays the rent) into a conveyor belt of 'churn it out asap and grab the cash' presumably to engage in pursuing these grand ideas...
Can't really fault your post. It seems there's a real mantra these days, of moving on to grander things, from your humble origins. But those humble origins, if they stay as the core of your business, are far too important to neglect. I don't work in anything to do with wargaming. But we have customers, and the reality is that you need to manage your customers' expectations. If they don't expect to see unpainted areas, and details left off, then you have a problem.
I don't think anybody who has read the descriptions for level 4 and level 6 can think that this army is at that quality, as it stands now. Further, they didn't follow directions from the customer. From the videos, it sounds like he'd have been happy to pay more, if that would truly rectify the situation. Or wait longer.
Objectively, if tenebre's remarks are all factual (and they seem to be, as they aren't being refuted) about his efforts to get this resolved to his satisfaction, BTP have simple failed in their efforts.
This army itself, is of immense value (OOP minis, rare minis, custom sculpts). I can very well understand why he wouldn't send it back to BTP, when their obvious immediate concern is in silencing his criticism, rather than satisfying him in the first place.
If they requests/levels were undercosted, then that sucks, but as a business you just pick up the tab.
If you under-quote, then you absorb the difference, if you can do it while staying solvent, or talk to the customer and negotiate. You don't half-ass it then try and stifle their criticism.
People are reacting negatively, because of the customer service experience they are seeing play out. If tenebre didn't have a youtube channel, and post a video that picked up traction all over the net war-games community, what are his chances, do you think, of getting this resolved successfully?
That's a scary thought. There seem to be a number of people out there, defending BTP, because they had great experiences. That's fine, I understand why you'd be mystified, but do you really think tenebre's problem is one of his own making? It's hard to understand where that view comes from.
Here's my simple take:
If you say you'll do something, as a business, then you better follow through.
If you change what you are going to do, and you don't talk to the customer, then you better be prepared to remediate the result.
If the customer asks you to do certain things, then you need to comply, and as promptly as possible. When they ask for more photos, you should take them. This is really their only chance to inspect the works before you ship them back.
It appears:
BTP failed to follow the agreed to scheme.
They took liberties with the commission.
They failed to stick to the timelines they suggested were likely, from the outset. (not a big deal, but can be frustrating as the customer. Even if you don't care if the job takes two months, if you are promised two weeks, it's going to be more frustrating if they fail to deliver.)
Tenebre wasn't given access to communicate with the artist doing the actual work.
They failed to acknowledge specific requests, said they'd make all the changes requested, then post up the result which indicated they hadn't done so. There were several iterations of this.
It seems like they then communicated that the job was done, that tenebre needed to pay up, or the army would be sold off. Let me remind you, that at this point the MINIMUM risk for tenebre was around $10,000. Given the comissioned sculpts, the conversions he'd done himself, the OOP models, etc it's probably higher than that lower bounding esimate. At this point, he has no choice but to pay up, they have him over a barrel. If you believe BTP, then this was a mix-up. I personally find that hard to credit, as this one of the biggest commission jobs I've seen on BTP. They certainly aren't dime a dozen.
BTP then made several offers, a number of which have been withdrawn after being accepted, or being discussed.
They've not talked specifically on this job. They've not admitted any wrongdoing.
Everything so far from BTP has been carefully worded to imply that they are going out of their way to be reasonable, with an unreasonable customer.
The funny thing is, everything above could have been changed. If a few of the things above hadn't happened, in the way they did, then this might not have blown up. If BTP, had made the fixes tenebre asked for, he might have accepted the army, even though it wasn't to his specification.
Now, this entire episode could have been a huge negative for people running commission painting businesses. But it looks like a great opportunity.
In any job, clear communication, and management of expectations are key. If you can't do something the customer accepts, let them know. Many customers are happy with an alternative suggestion.
If you talk them through the process, and get them involved as early as possible in critiquing your work, then you'll have spent less time working on a scheme that doesn't satisfy the customer.
Anyone working in commission painting, or interested in getting commission painting done should listen to the Independent Character's podcast episode on commission painting. It covers a LOT of experiences/services/etc.
Lastly, it's great to see someone picking up the tab to fix this army. We don't know who it is, or what the agreement is. But it is interesting that they've (presumably) opted to keep it quiet. Maybe they are trying to reach out to BTP on behalf of tenebre to get it all sorted before this ends up in court. Whatever the agreement, if tenebre has the assurance of getting his army fixed, at no additional cost, that's just brilliant. Kudos to this mystery painting studio! The in progress stuff looks great, and certainly much more "on theme" with tenebre's requests (ie the bloodyness). And come on, details picked out, that shouldn't be an extra on a model as big as that!
Tenebre: Will we eventually find out who helped you with getting your army fixed up? They don't want to remain completely anonymous, do they?
Well said, MGS. I feel a very similar way and I'm glad someone took the time to say it better than I might have. I sincerely hope Shaun reads this and thinks on it. There are a lot of us out there that aren't baying for blood but are also really disgusted with the way things are. I hope he's capable of the changes necessary so he can be truly successful one day.
Tenebre: Will we eventually find out who helped you with getting your army fixed up? They don't want to remain completely anonymous, do they?
yes i will do a blog as each unit is completed. I dont want to taint someones charity and kindness in this thread, so it will be a separate thread in the painting section. (should have first one up next week.)
From the reference to "paint and they will come", I imagine he means the idea of pre-painting armies that are not yet sold. I tend to agree with his analysis as well, it's an expensive, slow moving stock item, and a lot of it comes down to taste. Is the risk, worth the "cost" to the customer of waiting for a commissioned one to be complete? It's the classic "marginal payoff, which only pays off if you predict the needs of the market extremely well", aka a bad investment. I mean, people aren't paying double for this army, because it's quickly delivered, are they?
Tenebre: Will we eventually find out who helped you with getting your army fixed up? They don't want to remain completely anonymous, do they?
yes i will do a blog as each unit is completed. I dont want to taint someones charity and kindness in this thread, so it will be a separate thread in the painting section. (should have first one up next week.)
Awesome, and agree 100%. Sounds like you are happy with their interaction, and work.
It's weird, but you posted up three pretty honest videos. So I feel like I am invested in how things work out for you, despite living on the other side of the world.
Let the community know, if there's things they can do to help you sort everything out. I know there's been mention of crowd-funding, etc.
I don't play fantasy (haven't for years), I don't watch fantasy battle reports, etc. But I'll definitely be checking yours out, when you have your chaos dwarves sorted! I'll be keeping an eye out for the updates too. Blog will be a post on your YT, or do you have a written blog?
i honestly don't think that Shawn is capable of eating any humble pie, and reforming his approach to business, MGS...
through ten years of watching them churn out mediocre work, and having even been offered a job at BTP at one point, i have always felt like Shawn has more than a little bit of the deranged cult leader in him...
when he offered me a job, around 2005, the first thing he sent me was a two page list of rules he expects his painters to follow...
not a mission statement about quality and service, but a list of lifestyle choices that are not acceptable to him...
not to mention having to move to Utah, of all places...
i could never sit through one of his videos, because his manner has always rubbed me the wrong way...
i always got a vision of him taking his painters out to a farm one day, and having them all drink some grape Flavor Aid...
i'm not trying to be flippant with that statement, either...
he really creeps me out...
if the guy can get his business in order, and have his studio actually start producing some quality work, on time (which is my biggest failing as a commission painter, too), then more power to them...
personally, i would never recommend BTP as they have operated over the last decade, and i recommend painters to the majority of people who contact me for commissions, because i am always booked, and am, more often than not, too expensive for the potential clients who inquire about my work...
jah-joshua wrote: i honestly don't think that Shawn is capable of eating any humble pie, and reforming his approach to business, MGS...
through ten years of watching them churn out mediocre work, and having even been offered a job at BTP at one point, i have always felt like Shawn has more than a little bit of the deranged cult leader in him...
when he offered me a job, around 2005, the first thing he sent me was a two page list of rules he expects his painters to follow...
not a mission statement about quality and service, but a list of lifestyle choices that are not acceptable to him...
not to mention having to move to Utah, of all places...
i could never sit through one of his videos, because his manner has always rubbed me the wrong way...
i always got a vision of him taking his painters out to a farm one day, and having them all drink some grape Flavor Aid...
i'm not trying to be flippant with that statement, either...
he really creeps me out...
if the guy can get his business in order, and have his studio actually start producing some quality work, on time (which is my biggest failing as a commission painter, too), then more power to them...
personally, i would never recommend BTP as they have operated over the last decade, and i recommend painters to the majority of people who contact me for commissions, because i am always booked, and am, more often than not, too expensive for the potential clients who inquire about my work...
I think we should steer away from anything potentially libellous or slanderous comments. Not to shut you guys down, but I don't think you should post that list. It may make things harder for Dakka/tenebre.
jah-joshua wrote: i honestly don't think that Shawn is capable of eating any humble pie, and reforming his approach to business, MGS...
through ten years of watching them churn out mediocre work, and having even been offered a job at BTP at one point, i have always felt like Shawn has more than a little bit of the deranged cult leader in him...
when he offered me a job, around 2005, the first thing he sent me was a two page list of rules he expects his painters to follow...
not a mission statement about quality and service, but a list of lifestyle choices that are not acceptable to him...
not to mention having to move to Utah, of all places...
i could never sit through one of his videos, because his manner has always rubbed me the wrong way...
i always got a vision of him taking his painters out to a farm one day, and having them all drink some grape Flavor Aid...
i'm not trying to be flippant with that statement, either...
he really creeps me out...
if the guy can get his business in order, and have his studio actually start producing some quality work, on time (which is my biggest failing as a commission painter, too), then more power to them...
personally, i would never recommend BTP as they have operated over the last decade, and i recommend painters to the majority of people who contact me for commissions, because i am always booked, and am, more often than not, too expensive for the potential clients who inquire about my work...
just my 2 cents...
cheers
jah
I'd be interested in seeing those rules
+1 I think we all would.
Given the fact the mods are scrutinizing what I say, I will not speculate on what dark and depraved behaviors he tried to force on you. The only other time I have heard of such a thing is when people have been indoctrinated into the Moonies and taken off for one of those mass weddings.
TinBane wrote: I think we should steer away from anything potentially libellous or slanderous comments. Not to shut you guys down, but I don't think you should post that list. It may make things harder for Dakka/tenebre.
Statements of fact are not libelous or slanderous, they are facts. Unless the poster signed an NDA, they are free for him to share.
If you want some examples of what would be libelous or slanderous, PM me and I will demonstrate the difference.
Tenebre is not going to have much of a problem recouping any judgement, I know how BTP is organized and what real property is owned by Shawn (through a public records search.) He has the wherewithal to make Tenebre whole again any time he chooses. So I don't think 'harder' enters into this.
tenebre wrote: I dont want to taint someones charity and kindness in this thread
A very wise decision, I truly hope some people don't follow you over to another thread with the same attitudes. Oh and I think you've dealt with this all very well, I hope at the end of it all you feel like you finally got what you wanted and maybe some justice too.
jah-joshua wrote:
i don't think i've said anything libellous...
i just shared the feeling i got from my experience in correspondences, and giving the videos a chance...
I don't think so either, you've shared your opinions.
If you had posted, what was purported to be the list, that might be libellous.
techsoldaten wrote:
Statements of fact are not libelous or slanderous, they are facts. Unless the poster signed an NDA, they are free for him to share.
If you want some examples of what would be libelous or slanderous, PM me and I will demonstrate the difference.
If he'd posted what was purported to be a list given to him nine years ago, by a would-be employer, how would you demonstrate that it was a fact?
Also, how sure are you that what constitutes libel in Utah, is what you are familiar with. I'm not American, nor a lawyer, but I know that states have different definitions of what constitutes libel.
I'm not sure about Utah, but given the claim could be considered injurious to a competitor, it's potentially defamation per se.
In any event, he doesn't have the list. But it's not as simple to prove that something like a list, is a fact. Does he have it notarized from the time he was given it? Is there chain of custody? Is there evidence that the list was part of BTP's practises?
You don't just go to court, and say "I got give this list by Shawn", and they decide to let you off libel, on the basis that your claim was unassailably fact...
My point is, let's not muddy the waters too much with claims, and keep this thread focused on tenebre's experience, and others like it.
tenebre wrote: I dont want to taint someones charity and kindness in this thread
A very wise decision, I truly hope some people don't follow you over to another thread with the same attitudes. Oh and I think you've dealt with this all very well, I hope at the end of it all you feel like you finally got what you wanted and maybe some justice too.
Agreed!
And I think focusing on the facts, simply what you signed a contract to have done, and what you received, has contributed greatly to the positive outcome you are getting.
For this thread, as I noted last page, I think it is far more effective to just let the facts speak for themselves, rather than to speculate...
So, just to make that very clear here, a quick mod note since it isn't present on this page:
Speculation about the character, or personal details (such as finances, marital status, etc) of the owner of BTP isn't considered on-topic for this thread. It is fine if you want to look into these things privately, and share details over email or the like, but it just doesn't have a place being discussed on Dakka.
This thread is for discussing of BTP as a business, and specifically their dealings with tenebre.
Thanks for understanding! If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me.
techsoldaten wrote:
Statements of fact are not libelous or slanderous, they are facts. Unless the poster signed an NDA, they are free for him to share.
If you want some examples of what would be libelous or slanderous, PM me and I will demonstrate the difference.
If he'd posted what was purported to be a list given to him nine years ago, by a would-be employer, how would you demonstrate that it was a fact?
Also, how sure are you that what constitutes libel in Utah, is what you are familiar with. I'm not American, nor a lawyer, but I know that states have different definitions of what constitutes libel.
I'm not sure about Utah, but given the claim could be considered injurious to a competitor, it's potentially defamation per se.
In any event, he doesn't have the list. But it's not as simple to prove that something like a list, is a fact. Does he have it notarized from the time he was given it? Is there chain of custody? Is there evidence that the list was part of BTP's practises?
You don't just go to court, and say "I got give this list by Shawn", and they decide to let you off libel, on the basis that your claim was unassailably fact...
My point is, let's not muddy the waters too much with claims, and keep this thread focused on tenebre's experience, and others like it.
I live in the US and work in an industry where I need to know the law. We're talking about Utah annotated code section 76-9-404, right? They decriminalized libel in Utah maybe 10 years ago, but defamation is still on the books. It's a misdemeanor and something I am prepared to handle should the need arise.
In cases of libel / defamation, the burden is not really to demonstrate what you said is fact, but for someone else to demonstrate what you said is false and injurious. Utah defamation allows for things like humiliation, but honestly - I keep citing things he has published to a broadcast medium. I do not see myself or anyone who has contributed to this thread running afoul of that. You should see the stuff Utah legislators say about each other, which is a nuclear weapon to the rubber bands that have been slung here.
It's true, I am not an attorney, but red flags are usually easy to spot. But yeah, if anyone wants to share some manifesto you got from a previous / potential employer, feel free. I am in touch right now with enough former BTP people that I can get it verified without too much of an issue.
In the meantime, I know we all want to keep the focus on getting tenebre his money back, but let's not go around hitting panic buttons that stifle what people have to say. There's a balance to be struck between keeping the pressure on and keeping BTP from going out of business.
jeez, i am really sorry i made that post now, and made RiTides drop the mod-hammer, yet posts are still going on about my off-topic statements...
i think we've exhausted any valid points by now, and can get back to Tenebre's dilemma...
jah-joshua wrote: jeez, i am really sorry i made that post now, and made RiTides drop the mod-hammer, yet posts are still going on about my off-topic statements...
i think we've exhausted any valid points by now, and can get back to Tenebre's dilemma...
sorry for derailing your thread, man...
cheers
jah
I don't think your post was off topic as it actually refers to the business side of BTP which is relevant to this thread. The modhammer was dropped (as far as I understand) in relation to previous comments about speculation about his personal financial and marital details and wild speculation/discussion that they might be going bankrupt.
jah-joshua wrote: jeez, i am really sorry i made that post now, and made RiTides drop the mod-hammer, yet posts are still going on about my off-topic statements...
i think we've exhausted any valid points by now, and can get back to Tenebre's dilemma...
sorry for derailing your thread, man...
cheers
jah
I don't think your post was off topic as it actually refers to the business side of BTP which is relevant to this thread. The modhammer was dropped (as far as I understand) in relation to previous comments about speculation about his personal financial and marital details and wild speculation/discussion that they might be going bankrupt.
Right, and that was my fault. It was my interpretation of the events depicted in the BTP videos. It was speculation and not appropriate for this forum.
Thank you to all the people who flagged that post. I will keep further posts limited to facts. I now have quite a few and will start sharing when the time is right.
Everyone else should totally continue on about how unfairly tenebre has been treated as a client of Blue Table Painting, the underwhelming outcomes they have achieved, and the injustice of the situation.
I live in the US and work in an industry where I need to know the law. We're talking about Utah annotated code section 76-9-404, right? They decriminalized libel in Utah maybe 10 years ago, but defamation is still on the books. It's a misdemeanor and something I am prepared to handle should the need arise.
In cases of libel / defamation, the burden is not really to demonstrate what you said is fact, but for someone else to demonstrate what you said is false and injurious. Utah defamation allows for things like humiliation, but honestly - I keep citing things he has published to a broadcast medium. I do not see myself or anyone who has contributed to this thread running afoul of that. You should see the stuff Utah legislators say about each other, which is a nuclear weapon to the rubber bands that have been slung here.
It's true, I am not an attorney, but red flags are usually easy to spot. But yeah, if anyone wants to share some manifesto you got from a previous / potential employer, feel free. I am in touch right now with enough former BTP people that I can get it verified without too much of an issue.
In the meantime, I know we all want to keep the focus on getting tenebre his money back, but let's not go around hitting panic buttons that stifle what people have to say. There's a balance to be struck between keeping the pressure on and keeping BTP from going out of business.
I'm not trying to stifle what we say. But if there's some creepy manifesto, does it matter to the facts on hand? And whether you are willing to handle the potential repercussions, have you considered that in many jurisdictions (sorry, not sure about the US/Utah) treat the site that hosts the material, as the publisher, and therefore liable.
What's the net benefit to the community? Is it worth the risk of causing headaches for the admins and mods of dakka, in order to post information that may show that 9 years ago Shawn put onerous rules into contracts with employees? Potentially, posting that information in this thread, may give them some grounds to demand the thread be removed.
That's more my point. Feel free to defame whomever you wish. But be aware that you may inadvertently, and without meaning to, make more work for other people, and have consequences on other people.
Now I'm not a lawyer, nor a US lawyer, nor a Utah lawyer. But I think it's important to balance the benefit to the community to seeing such a document (or we could just take his word for it, I'm fine with that, TBH) versus the potential fallout.
Now in BTPs credit, they haven't exactly gone anywhere near mentioning lawyers, as far as I'm aware. I imagine the repercussions in the community, for being seen to be trying to stifle discussion, could be extreme. That said, you might be at less risk than the other poster in any event, because you wouldn't be considered a competitor. As a competitor, it might be deemed defamation per se, which means that you don't need to demonstrate actual damages. In other words, you just need to demonstrate that what was said was false, not that it caused damages. Being decriminalised, simply means that it's a civil matter. It doesn't mean that you can defame people as much as you'd like.
Now I'm all for people ragging on someone when they deserve it. But honestly, how much does the document being posted, add to the discussion?
Okay, I think we really have beat this horse to death, so as a final note...
Rule #2 of Dakka is "Stay on Topic". Any further posts discussing what is on or off-topic for this thread, personal information of any person (religion, marital status, personal finances), or general legal definitions, will simply be deleted.
Again, thanks for understanding, and please for the last time... no more posts that fit any of the categories above. Otherwise, this thread will have to be locked, which I don't think anyone wants. Please allow it to remain open so that tenebre can update his status when appropriate... thanks.
That's my understanding, based on tenebre's comments and latest video.
It's really not a good idea for Shawn to share too much information with people who contact him about this issue.
themonk wrote: This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.
Shouldn't one of us get a copy of that or something? I mean while he is offering. Also couldn't this potentially be used to help OP's case? For example of Shawn just provided emails to people who asked that made him
look good and OP look bad and skewed info isn't that illegal? Or shouldn't people get the documents and compare what Shawn is handing out to the public to see if it has been altered in anyway, as I am pretty sure that
that is illegal. To me getting possible proof that he is breaking the law should really help OP's case, or at least make BTP admit the problems.
themonk wrote: This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.
Shouldn't one of us get a copy of that or something? I mean while he is offering. Also couldn't this potentially be used to help OP's case? For example of Shawn just provided emails to people who asked that made him
look good and OP look bad and skewed info isn't that illegal? Or shouldn't people get the documents and compare what Shawn is handing out to the public to see if it has been altered in anyway, as I am pretty sure that
that is illegal. To me getting possible proof that he is breaking the law should really help OP's case, or at least make BTP admit the problems.
Then again, maybe I am wrong, I dont know.
I have no idea. Generally though, it's risky to give out potentially private information, such as the contents of private emails, especially where it's in a business context.
It's certainly not a good look, and if it's true then BTP should be castigated for sharing such information :(
If someone has a copy, maybe they can PM tenebre so he can see what's being shared, and whether it's being altered.
themonk wrote: This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.
Shouldn't one of us get a copy of that or something? I mean while he is offering. Also couldn't this potentially be used to help OP's case? For example of Shawn just provided emails to people who asked that made him
look good and OP look bad and skewed info isn't that illegal? Or shouldn't people get the documents and compare what Shawn is handing out to the public to see if it has been altered in anyway, as I am pretty sure that
that is illegal. To me getting possible proof that he is breaking the law should really help OP's case, or at least make BTP admit the problems.
Then again, maybe I am wrong, I dont know.
I have no idea. Generally though, it's risky to give out potentially private information, such as the contents of private emails, especially where it's in a business context.
It's certainly not a good look, and if it's true then BTP should be castigated for sharing such information :(
If someone has a copy, maybe they can PM tenebre so he can see what's being shared, and whether it's being altered.
Agreed. Also a copy should be acquired and given to tenebre regardless just because it couldn't hurt. At best it shows questionable character of BTP at worse it shows forging of private documents. Also Shawn may
eventually smarten up and stop handing them out so I suppose someone should get them quick (someone who Shawn would actually give the documents to not the many of us who he probably scorns).
My concern that it might hurt tenebre's legal actions when he publicly detailed the correspondence he's had with BTP, if it's bad for BTP to share communication surely it would be bad for tenebre to do it as well?
I'm definitely eager to see some more of the retouched models though.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: My concern that it might hurt tenebre's legal actions when he publicly detailed the correspondence he's had with BTP, if it's bad for BTP to share communication surely it would be bad for tenebre to do it as well?
I'm definitely eager to see some more of the retouched models though.
I was suggesting that someone share BTPs disclosure with tenebre. Not that he share his version of the private correspondence.
or he has something to hide. Why else would he not show his "army," being done in another thread?
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