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 tenebre wrote:
Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"

The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.

Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.

Definitely interested to see a review on the new models. Is there any ETA on them?

I watched the video, I felt he was more than fair.

What should have happened is for Shawn to have jumped on the grenade and posted a video response where he threw his own company under the bus more savagely than the customer did, and then declare that he was going to fix this by whatever means. He should have then offered a full refund, begged the customer for the chance to redo it properly (including putting the valuation of the unpainted army in escrow to assure the customer that they don't need to worry about possession musical chairs), or offered to subcontract the repair of the paint job to another provider to establish that come hell or high water that his company will deliver the product the customer was seeking by any means. Then they needed to make sure the customer was 100% satisfied. Bad press becomes good press.

This assumes they have the cashflow to make that happen. They might not. If they are underwater, then all they've got is offering empty promises and trying to sweep it under the rug because they've got no legitimate plays.

Or he gave money to a trash and dash fly by night operation that is never going to deliver.


Now, an underwater company that can't deliver is something the buyer didn't protect himself on, so the magnitude of the train wreck is pretty much entirely the buyers fault. That doesn't make him a bad person, or even a stupid person. It makes him a person that did a stupid or ignorant thing.

I would hope that after having done something as stupid/ignorant on this level that he would make a video giving advice on the proper way to commission painting. Ideally in cooperation with a commission painter so the viewer can understand both sides of the equation, and hopefully discover/document some best practices. Especially for a project this large. Milestones were invented for a reason. You don't just hand over large lump sums of money (nor should a well run business that is above water ever allow you to do so). Milestone one for a project this large should have involved test miniatures and only payments required for painting those test miniatures should have been made. If the test miniatures are not to standard, then the project is aborted without large sums of money or work on the table. If the miniatures are to standard, then the next milestone is painting one unit to the standard of the test miniature. If they fail to deliver, project aborted (and you've got them dead to rights if you want to go through the hassle of getting the upfront payment for that milestone back. Exhibit A: painted skulls and jewelry on the test miniature delivered on the last milestone, Exhibit B: No painted skulls or jewelry on the product they are trying to deliver for this milestone). This would have also protected BTP. They can claim their painting was to their stated standard all they want. If they get hauled into court and the ~opinion~ of the judge or arbitrator is not the ~opinion~ of Shawn, then he is a bad businessman who has to pay out a fair sum of money because he didn't protect himself.

Maybe BTP can try another Kickstarter to pay for their future legal issues?

 FatherKnowsBest wrote:
Maybe BTP can try another Kickstarter to pay for their future legal issues?

1 dollar level shawn will spit in your face and tell you that you are wrong and he is right

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 tenebre wrote:
Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"

The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.

Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.

Definitely interested to see a review on the new models. Is there any ETA on them?

i should be able to review a unit per week starting next week. I have already seen wip and test model pics

Ye gods diving in late but the thread by M0ff3l kind of caught my attention being as it didn't seem like a P&M blog leading to a little confusion on my part makes a lot more sense now.

I guess all I can do is throw in my sympathies that you had to go through this with what is meant to be a service.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
So, can anyone give me a quick wrap up of why MWG is involved in this? I know MWG has some advertising of them and has had some miniatures done by them, but what did Matt say that was so awful? Also, why do MWG generally catch a lot of flakk?

I really like their vids and the guys seem funny, but I've never delved much into it beyond their free Youtube vids.

MWG basically made a blatantly dishonest endorsement of BTP by asking for only positive feedback in a video which was marketed as a review of BTP but was really just a big suck up saying they can do no wrong. They also claimed that any negative feedback about BTP is overblown and just that person being difficult and its just the normal negative feedback any company will receive. It was basically a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" moment.

They should have just remained silent on the whole issue.

As for MWG in general, they REALLY suck at playing miniature games. They're the definition of bumbling casual gamers. They can't bother themselves to learn even basic tactics or even the names of their own models. They make tones of rule mistakes. The only thing they seem able to do well is make a good youtube video, which only highlights their deficiencies on other areas. When your business revolves around miniature gaming, the least you can do is be competent at the games you are playing. Every time I watch a MWG batrep I end up wanting to beat them with a rulebook and a basket of common sense.

That's really shady and disappointing. And really? I'm fairly competent with the rules and I've seen some mistakes, but I've always chalked that up to them wanting it to be fun rather than 100% accurate. Dave's really good about fething gak up. As to the tactics, yeah, they make a lot of errors, but again, I think that's chalked up to more speed and them wanting it to be lighthearted and fun rather than taking it seriously. Ah well, I never really look to them for ideas other than just watching some crazy gak happen.

The thing is you cannot be like that because people watch their videos to try and get better at the game.

I've had to straighten more than one newbie out because "well thats how MWG does it"

Okay, but half their videos, at least the Banter Bat Reps, flat out say "Hey, we're gonna feth up rules, sorry, give us a break". I know several others, Frontline Gaming and Striking Scorpion included, although I love them dearly, who also feth up rules. 40k videos are a great way to learn the basics/majority of the game, but they do not replace the BRB. Newbies should read the BRB, watch some videos, then re-read the BRB. That, and guess what, people mess up rules. I've had to straighten out newbies who've never watched MWG.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Volume is relative. No painting service should EVER be able to use the excuse of "we're swamped" if they let quality slip. They shouldn't take more than they can handle. They can tell someone they'll need to wait as they're too busy.

Especially on their premium jobs, of which there won't be many. You get a premium job, you give a premium service. And honestly, the painter should be the one to talk to the client. He's currently giving his undivided attention to the project, a 5 minute phone call and/or e-mail is so easy there is no excuse not to do it. Heck you could do a freaking Skype call and show your progress directly.

I guess you have to make compromises if you're so worried about staff leaving that you can't have them even talk to the customer directly. The whole set-up seems to be to prevent the painters taking on customers privately, which makes me think they're either a. grossly underpaid and/or b. never with the company very long.

 tenebre wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 tenebre wrote:
Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"

The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.

Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.

Definitely interested to see a review on the new models. Is there any ETA on them?

i should be able to review a unit per week starting next week. I have already seen wip and test model pics

Awesome, I'm definitely looking forward to it. Those are awesome models and they deserve a good paint job.

Are they doing a full repaint or a touch up?

I know most of you know whats going on, but i kept getting messages so i made a final video on youtube to wrap up
Part 3

The video looks good but is blank for about the last 30 seconds (after you've already signed off)

Looking forward to seeing the repaint results!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 tenebre wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 tenebre wrote:
Whats funny... is the conversation with the new painters was basically "Do you agree tat colors x,y, ans z are the colors in the Tamurkhan picture?" and I said "yes"

The artist got exactly what i wanted on the first try without any corrections needing to come from me.

Whats more interesting is the new company (had i known about them) would have actually been 30% cheaper than what i paid BTP.

Definitely interested to see a review on the new models. Is there any ETA on them?

i should be able to review a unit per week starting next week. I have already seen wip and test model pics

Awesome, I'm definitely looking forward to it. Those are awesome models and they deserve a good paint job.

Are they doing a full repaint or a touch up?

its a repair job. but so far its fantastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Looks good but is blank for about the last 30 seconds (after you've already signed off)

Looking forward to seeing the repaint results!

Always are i usually put up subscribe now and such in that spot.. but for some reason i just dont like doing that with these videos. If you watch the batrep end you can see what i use it for.

Okay, with MWG, this is what happened.

1. MWG sent out an email and simultaneously place up a vault member only video requesting positive reviews for BTP about two weeks ago(I think).

2. Many people contacted Matt from MWG assuming he was unaware about the Chaos Dwarf fiasco underway. This was done both via emails and the comments section of the vault member video.

3. Matt from MWG did a sit and talk, and replied to comments in the vault member video showing that he did in fact know about the Chaos Dwarf video. In the Sit and Talk, he even directly addressed it and his tone and what he said implied that when a company was as big and successful as BTP, trolls would always come out and try disparaging them (implying, heavily, that Tenebre is such a troll).

4. Matt then removed the vault member video. Some assumed this was based on a change of heart, however, after being questioned by a vault member on the forum, he replied that the only reason he took it down was because they had enough positive comments and he then locked the thread to stop "negativity".

As far as I know, that's everything from MWG. I've personally quit my vault membership over this, though I don't assume many will. I just found their response on this rather disgusting (thinly veiled blaming of Tenebre).

My own message to Matt via their facebook page,
Hello, I've been a fan of MWG for a while and, being aware of the Chaos Dwarf army issue with BTP. I was a little surprised, and disheartened with the timing of the request to vault members for positive reviews to be sent to MWG as client testimonials for a positive video endorsing BTP. However, I gave MWG the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were not entirely aware of the issue. Then, the commentary in both the Sit and Talk and the comments of the request video made it obvious that you were aware of the issue. I was considering removing myself as a fault member and would have, except I then found you had removed the request video. Assuming this was done due to a change of heart, I held off removing my vault membership while waiting to see what your intent was. However, I just became aware of your recent comment in the MWG forums to the tune of the video only being removed due to the fact you had enough positive feedback now, and that you had locked the thread due to the amount of negative feedback you'd been receiving on the previous request video. I can honestly say this is both disappointing and disillusioning. Previous to this incident, I had considered MWG to be an independent, and intentionally unbiased site that had a love of the hobby I similarly shared a love for. After this, and reading your various comments disparaging the man behind the Chaos Army review, I can no longer support, nor enjoy MWG's content. I am thoroughly disgusted and have removed my vault member subscription from MGW. Yours Sincerely, Sean Martin (Gullinbursti on MWG)

I find it really funny that every offer was retracted
"Oh.....He is serious.....we dont have the money..."

 Gullinbursti wrote:
Okay, with MWG, this is what happened.

1. MWG sent out an email and simultaneously place up a vault member only video requesting positive reviews for BTP about two weeks ago(I think).

2. Many people contacted Matt from MWG assuming he was unaware about the Chaos Dwarf fiasco underway. This was done both via emails and the comments section of the vault member video.

3. Matt from MWG did a sit and talk, and replied to comments in the vault member video showing that he did in fact know about the Chaos Dwarf video. In the Sit and Talk, he even directly addressed it and his tone and what he said implied that when a company was as big and successful as BTP, trolls would always come out and try disparaging them (implying, heavily, that Tenebre is such a troll).

4. Matt then removed the vault member video. Some assumed this was based on a change of heart, however, after being questioned by a vault member on the forum, he replied that the only reason he took it down was because they had enough positive comments and he then locked the thread to stop "negativity".

As far as I know, that's everything from MWG. I've personally quit my vault membership over this, though I don't assume many will. I just found their response on this rather disgusting (thinly veiled blaming of Tenebre).

My own message to Matt via their facebook page,
Hello, I've been a fan of MWG for a while and, being aware of the Chaos Dwarf army issue with BTP. I was a little surprised, and disheartened with the timing of the request to vault members for positive reviews to be sent to MWG as client testimonials for a positive video endorsing BTP. However, I gave MWG the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were not entirely aware of the issue. Then, the commentary in both the Sit and Talk and the comments of the request video made it obvious that you were aware of the issue. I was considering removing myself as a fault member and would have, except I then found you had removed the request video. Assuming this was done due to a change of heart, I held off removing my vault membership while waiting to see what your intent was. However, I just became aware of your recent comment in the MWG forums to the tune of the video only being removed due to the fact you had enough positive feedback now, and that you had locked the thread due to the amount of negative feedback you'd been receiving on the previous request video. I can honestly say this is both disappointing and disillusioning. Previous to this incident, I had considered MWG to be an independent, and intentionally unbiased site that had a love of the hobby I similarly shared a love for. After this, and reading your various comments disparaging the man behind the Chaos Army review, I can no longer support, nor enjoy MWG's content. I am thoroughly disgusted and have removed my vault member subscription from MGW. Yours Sincerely, Sean Martin (Gullinbursti on MWG)

I honestly wonder if matt will even respond, kinda hope he does just to get a better peak into his mind.

They're almost like false options under the assumption that the customer will just say "ehh never mind, I'll just accept the crap you gave me"

 Grey Templar wrote:
They're almost like false options under the assumption that the customer will just say "ehh never mind, I'll just accept the crap you gave me"

Honestly that seems like what they really believe, especially if you see some of the paint jobs posted on OP's other thread in warseer.

So with that latest video, tenebre, are you still pursuing legal action?

 curran12 wrote:
So with that latest video, tenebre, are you still pursuing legal action?

yes i have secured a lawyer. I cant give anymore info though. Also remember justice is a slow process, I promise I will update when its possible. These things takes months not weeks though.

Thanks for the heads up, and best of luck towards reaching an acceptable outcome.

The more and more I read of shawn, the more he has a sese f overflated ego of that he cant fail
1:He thinks the customer is wrong, and said it. Even if they are wrong, you dont say it. Everyone knows the customer is always right, even when they are not(Im not sayig tenebre is wrong here, you just never call the customer wrong)
2: He is charging for business advice 1200$. First he thinks its good advice, then he thinks he can charge this much
3: the KS campaign....ugh.

 tenebre wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
So with that latest video, tenebre, are you still pursuing legal action?

yes i have secured a lawyer. I cant give anymore info though. Also remember justice is a slow process, I promise I will update when its possible. These things takes months not weeks though.

As someone whose family is involved in a legal battle, my best wishes go out to you. This is going to suck and it will probably go on until next summer. Hopefully this will get resolved "quickly".

 RiTides wrote:
What video are you referring to, Steelmage, as both of tenebre's videos are still up?

Honestly, the repaint by the new company should speak volumes more than anything else. Would love to see a review / video of that when this is done

Actually not really. I am on tenebres side as well and think he got ripped off to the extreme but the probono paint job was a smart marketing strategy by that studio, which will and very deservedly should, gain them TONS of good will with the community and is one hell of an opportunity to showcase their best work.

Basically I am saying it is unrealistic to expect a painting commission for free, and just as unlikely for it to be anything but above average performance in this instance. So while BTP did do a poor job, comparing their work next to what comes from this will be trivial at best as there is no balanced scale on any of the marks.

I can't wait to see it myself at any rate though! Heck I can't wait to find out who the generous studio was.

 RivenSkull wrote:

 tenebre wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
So with that latest video, tenebre, are you still pursuing legal action?

yes i have secured a lawyer. I cant give anymore info though. Also remember justice is a slow process, I promise I will update when its possible. These things takes months not weeks though.

As someone whose family is involved in a legal battle, my best wishes go out to you. This is going to suck and it will probably go on until next summer. Hopefully this will get resolved "quickly".

This. My mother went through a legal battle over a car accident (she wasn't at fault, a car backed into her) and it took forever, about 6-9 months.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Actually not really. I am on tenebres side as well and think he got ripped off to the extreme but the probono paint job was a smart marketing strategy by that studio, which will and very deservedly should, gain them TONS of good will with the community and is one hell of an opportunity to showcase their best work.

Basically I am saying it is unrealistic to expect a painting commission for free, and just as unlikely for it to be anything but above average performance in this instance. So while BTP did do a poor job, comparing their work next to what comes from this will be trivial at best as there is no balanced scale on any of the marks.

You're not the first person to say this, and it's still completely silly.
Before: Garbage BTP produced.
After: High end paint job that tenebre originally paid for.
It's not scientific, but it WILL underline the failings in BTPs work. Eliminate the highly subjective 'art' side of things and there are any number of 'craft' components that were clearly lacking and that (hopefully) won't be in the new paint job

 plastictrees wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Actually not really. I am on tenebres side as well and think he got ripped off to the extreme but the probono paint job was a smart marketing strategy by that studio, which will and very deservedly should, gain them TONS of good will with the community and is one hell of an opportunity to showcase their best work.

Basically I am saying it is unrealistic to expect a painting commission for free, and just as unlikely for it to be anything but above average performance in this instance. So while BTP did do a poor job, comparing their work next to what comes from this will be trivial at best as there is no balanced scale on any of the marks.

You're not the first person to say this, and it's still completely silly.
Before: Garbage BTP produced.
After: High end paint job that tenebre originally paid for.
It's not scientific, but it WILL underline the failings in BTPs work. Eliminate the highly subjective 'art' side of things and there are any number of 'craft' components that were clearly lacking and that (hopefully) won't be in the new paint job

But you are missing the part where the failings don't need to be underlined lol.

OK, I guess maybe you personally need them underlined but personally if I pay Ferrari prices and you ship me a Pinto I don't need to see a Ferrari to know I overpaid for the POS Pinto.

And before this escalates on a tangent about how I am somehow victim shaming, I will restate that I am behind tenebre here 100% and I am curious to see the results. I just also find it ridiculous that some people aren't looking at the free repaint as anything other then smart PR for the current studio, and further more to expect less then above average and expected results considering the audience they now have held captive, because frankly, it would be a massively stupid blunder to produce anything but perfect results at this point.

Who is the current studio doing the repaint btw? I think I missed that part.

 quickfuze wrote:
Who is the current studio doing the repaint btw? I think I missed that part.

We haven't been told yet.

I'll happily promote the new painting company, if nothing else for helping out in bringing this very nice army to the table.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Who is the current studio doing the repaint btw? I think I missed that part.

We haven't been told yet.

I'll happily promote the new painting company, if nothing else for helping out in bringing this very nice army to the table.

Same here. And I've made note of which studios have offered to help and given good advice. You're all going in the mental rolodex for when I finally decided to get some of my Kingdom Death minis painted (looking specifically at you, Winterdyne )

 Red Corsair wrote:

But you are missing the part where the failings don't need to be underlined lol.

OK, I guess maybe you personally need them underlined but personally if I pay Ferrari prices and you ship me a Pinto I don't need to see a Ferrari to know I overpaid for the POS Pinto.

And before this escalates on a tangent about how I am somehow victim shaming, I will restate that I am behind tenebre here 100% and I am curious to see the results. I just also find it ridiculous that some people aren't looking at the free repaint as anything other then smart PR for the current studio, and further more to expect less then above average and expected results considering the audience they now have held captive, because frankly, it would be a massively stupid blunder to produce anything but perfect results at this point.

We have a thread in this forum by someone who saw the CD video and thought "that looks awesome", so I think that, as far as informing the consumer, the work done by the new studio will have some merit.
I agree that it's not going to impact the BTP/Tenebre situation at all, other than giving tenebre the army he thought he was paying for initially and resolving that element of this situation for him.

So...we agree then...maybe? I'm not sure what were talking about anymore.