Casey's Law wrote: I don't think it is too late. From what we've seen, Ten is a very sound, intelligent man and if they offered him something reasonable like a full refund and apology he would graciously except it. I could be wrong but that's the vibe I get from him. But BTP won't go down that road because they are the unreasonable party here.
Yeah when they flat out refused to offer anything more than 20% store credit. and that is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. Once they started sending out altered emails and trying to dismiss my complaint publicly i gave up.
And whilst the 20% store only credit (which I imagine is part of their markup and therefore not even an offer at all) was poor customer service... The editing of emails and duplicity involved, not to mention the absolute breach of confidentiality, is the most damning part of this.
Anything prior to that could be attributed to ineptitude and stupidity, that action however, and the hot on the heels 'surprise endorsements' from MWG, served to totally damn Shawn Gately in my eyes and I think the eyes of most others watching these threads and this incident.
It was scheming, underhand and, frankly, an admission of guilt.
I think most people watching these threads can see exactly what's going on here. Sadly anyone who can't see it isn't going to have some sort of sudden epiphany at this stage. The best we can hope for is that these threads and those before it will help to inform people who are looking for a painting service in the future.
I'll be interested to see the result that Ten's lawyers get and if that changes things in the future.
Casey's Law wrote: I think most people watching these threads can see exactly what's going on here. Sadly anyone who can't see it isn't going to have some sort of sudden epiphany at this stage. The best we can hope for is that these threads and those before it will help to inform people who are looking for a painting service in the future.
I'll be interested to see the result that Ten's lawyers get and if that changes things in the future.
Sidstyler wrote: It was an exchange of product/services, and possibly other perks like getting to go to Valhalla free of charge (which is insanely expensive). BTP had advertising "credit" that they earned by doing work for MWG and they cashed it in so they would do a video for BTP advertising the service.
I think the fact that the video was taken down shortly after and Matt refused to comment on it is probably proof that they aren't entirely blind. I don't necessarily see it as MWG coming to BTP's rescue and shilling for them, though it certainly didn't help much. Especially Matt's reiteration that BTP has thousands of completed projects and they're all happy, implying that tenebre's was either a special case or just didn't really matter in the end as others have apparently spent far more than even he has.
I wrote a detailed breakdown of the endorsement, and the video was taken down about 2 hours after this post went up.
There was a lot going on in that video and it suggested to me Matt was not actually advocating for people to use BTP's services. While you have to take what people say on face value, the way it was done and what Matt actually said seemed to be telling people to go use some other service.
This is why I say that.
1) The substance of what Matt said was mostly founded on unprovable assertions and not demonstrable facts. It's one thing to say they have done 8,000 jobs, it's another to say that in a context that proves a point. He never really did that, he just kind of brought up this metric without mentioning what a remarkable achievement that is, any statistics about the size of the jobs, etc. That really stood out to me, the dull presentation of facts made them lose any impact they have have carried.
2) You can tell a story a lot of different ways, and Matt showed miniatures and pictures of BTPs work that were less than spectacular throughout the video. Maybe some people would be satisfied with those models, but it was like the story about the Emperor's New Clothes. If this was meant to persuade me that BTP is something special, it failed comically. There was nothing presented that I could not have done better and (at the rates BTP charges) the only thing it made me think is this is a rip off. Like, if I had never heard the name tenebre, the specific models and pictures Matt chose to show would have made most people think BTPs services are a rip off.
3) I thought about how much BTP had to do to earn enough credit for Matt to do this endorsement video. That had to be a lot of miniatures, man hours going into painting the miniatures, comps to events, etc to get to this point where they create a video that's only up for a few days and generates a lot of negative comments. Matt knew about the debates going on in the community and left the comments open in the video. That is the most telling piece of all this - he put up something in a way that would fail, and certainly should have known there would be a lot of negative feedback.
Now, I have followed Matt's videos for years and know how articulate he can be about the industry, finer points about running a business, the gaming community, etc. He is very controlled in the points he chooses to make and doesn't seem to say things for the sake of hearing himself talk. If he wanted to say something that really made BTP sound like a great company, that would not have been hard for him to do. I mean, he's capable of much more articulate arguments, he knows how to make a point, there are better pictures of painted models on BTPs website, etc.
But Matt chose to put those things into his video. It sounded to me like Matt was taking out the trash and doing his part to make BTP treat their customer's fairly. If Shawn from BTP is not thinking the same thing, that would really surprise me. Not that I think that's a good way to run a business like MWG, it raises all kinds of questions about whether or not it's safe to deal with Matt. But this was the worst endorsement I have ever seen of any product or service ever, and it's hard for me to believe that happened accidentally.
There was a lot going on in that video and it suggested to me Matt was not actually advocating for people to use BTP's services. While you have to take what people say on face value, the way it was done and what Matt actually said seemed to be telling people to go use some other service.
This is why I say that.
1) The substance of what Matt said was mostly founded on unprovable assertions and not demonstrable facts. It's one thing to say they have done 8,000 jobs, it's another to say that in a context that proves a point. He never really did that, he just kind of brought up this metric without mentioning what a remarkable achievement that is, any statistics about the size of the jobs, etc. That really stood out to me, the dull presentation of facts made them lose any impact they have have carried.
2) You can tell a story a lot of different ways, and Matt showed miniatures and pictures of BTPs work that were less than spectacular throughout the video. Maybe some people would be satisfied with those models, but it was like the story about the Emperor's New Clothes. If this was meant to persuade me that BTP is something special, it failed comically. There was nothing presented that I could not have done better and (at the rates BTP charges) the only thing it made me think is this is a rip off. Like, if I had never heard the name tenebre, the specific models and pictures Matt chose to show would have made most people think BTPs services are a rip off.
3) I thought about how much BTP had to do to earn enough credit for Matt to do this endorsement video. That had to be a lot of miniatures, man hours going into painting the miniatures, comps to events, etc to get to this point where they create a video that's only up for a few days and generates a lot of negative comments. Matt knew about the debates going on in the community and left the comments open in the video. That is the most telling piece of all this - he put up something in a way that would fail, and certainly should have known there would be a lot of negative feedback.
Now, I have followed Matt's videos for years and know how articulate he can be about the industry, finer points about running a business, the gaming community, etc. He is very controlled in the points he chooses to make and doesn't seem to say things for the sake of hearing himself talk. If he wanted to say something that really made BTP sound like a great company, that would not have been hard for him to do. I mean, he's capable of much more articulate arguments, he knows how to make a point, there are better pictures of painted models on BTPs website, etc.
But Matt chose to put those things into his video. It strikes me as Matt taking out the trash and doing his part to make BTP treat their customer's fairly. If Shawn from BTP is not thinking the same thing, that would really surprise me. Not that I think that's a good way to run a business like MWG, it raises all kinds of questions about whether or not it's safe to deal with Matt. But this was the worst endorsement I have ever seen of any product or service ever, and it's hard for me to believe that happened accidentally.
So the entire endorsement video was actually a subliminal criticism of Blue Table rather than an endorsement...? Despite the wide open amount of 'favors' Blue Table does for MWG and the backscratching and the previous endorsement video...?
Sorry mate, that reads like the lunar landings conspiracies I get told by smelly people on the bus. MWG are totally guilty of cynical favored endorsements with timing that was entirely prompted and cronyism, much as some of their fans don't want to hear it.
So the entire endorsement video was actually a subliminal criticism of Blue Table rather than an endorsement...? Despite the wide open amount of 'favors' Blue Table does for MWG and the backscratching and the previous endorsement video...?
Sorry mate, that reads like the lunar landings conspiracies I get told by smelly people on the bus. MWG are totally guilty of cynical favored endorsements with timing that was entirely prompted and cronyism, much as some of their fans don't want to hear it.
No. I am saying Matt could have done a much better job if he really wanted to make the case BTP is a great service. He chose not to, and this is what people should take away from it.
So the entire endorsement video was actually a subliminal criticism of Blue Table rather than an endorsement...? Despite the wide open amount of 'favors' Blue Table does for MWG and the backscratching and the previous endorsement video...?
Sorry mate, that reads like the lunar landings conspiracies I get told by smelly people on the bus. MWG are totally guilty of cynical favored endorsements with timing that was entirely prompted and cronyism, much as some of their fans don't want to hear it.
No. I am saying Matt could have done a much better job if he really wanted to make the case BTP is a great service. He chose not to, and this is what people should take away from it.
It still was a bad move on his part, would have been better to sit this one out.. Most of the other Table-top news media on youtube have stayed clear of picking any side in this... Better to stay neutral then advocate or trash something.. "stay out of it" would have been the smart move here..
And for him sending subtle message by showing "crappy painted stuff" that is kinda far fetched and would go over most peoples heads..
What he could do now to "save face" is to publicy say that he was wrong... but the smart thing to do is just let it fade away.. Hopefully people will just remember how badly BTP screwed up and not that MWG was involved hehe..
Reality-Torrent wrote: Sadly I have not watched a singel MWG video since matt made his stance clear. Which is sad, cause I loved to watch those videos..
I only like the old world wars series.
Everything else is GAK.
But I don't like warmahordes, 40k, or anything other whan WHFB and my historical games...sooo yeah lol I'm not too sad to have unsubbed
techsoldaten wrote: Looking forward to updates on the resolution of the issues with BTP. I know it takes time for updates, just bumping this to make sure no one forgets.
I think a good thing to remember is "To forget is to forgive, Forget Nothing!... and we will not let BTP get away with anymore gak!
techsoldaten wrote: Looking forward to updates on the resolution of the issues with BTP. I know it takes time for updates, just bumping this to make sure no one forgets.
they have said that my project is nothing and that my prolbelm was simply not that important. There can not be a resolution with BTP because they refuse so.
However, legal proceedings are underway. I wish I could give updates faster but it could take months.
Formosa wrote: is there a summary of what happened here? don't fancy trolling through 51 pages
OP hired BTP to do a huge commission for him. BTP did not communicate, did not send pictures, delivered the product way over time and the results they had produced were abysmal. The OP was not satisfied. BTP replies that they did nothing wrong and that OP wasn't right. Offered a few fixes, when OP accepted one of them they withdrew the offer and left the OP out in the cold. BTP furthermore tried to force OP to remove a video he had posted online as a review of BTP painting service. BTP's firm belief is that painting commissions should be hidden away behind locks and not to be viewed by the public.
thanks guys, I have also watched 2 of the vids and I am very put off by BTP, I was basically doing a bit of market research to see what competition is out there and if BTP is the biggest then we have no worries at all.
This is my unfortunate BTP experience from years ago. I had an entire space marine battle company so I had them do some test figs; needless to say I am glad I did...
sorry dinamarth I have to call shenanigans on that I don't WANT to believe they sent that to you, please tell me that it was already painted badly and that is a salvage attempt... please
I've had one commission done. I spent alot of money and time modeling a Eldar Jetseer Council. I really wanted it to look good as it was a heck of a unit to convert. I can paint ok, but Im not gifted with a painters skills.
I had the below do it, was really happy with how it turned out. Really good guy.
Dinamarth wrote: This is my unfortunate BTP experience from years ago. I had an entire space marine battle company so I had them do some test figs; needless to say I am glad I did...
Spoiler:
...the feth is that? Like, seriously? I'm assuming you didn't send it to them already with thick layers of paint obscuring the details, right?
I'm a crap painter and even I would put out something better than that.
Dinamarth wrote: This is my unfortunate BTP experience from years ago. I had an entire space marine battle company so I had them do some test figs; needless to say I am glad I did...
Dinamarth wrote: This is my unfortunate BTP experience from years ago. I had an entire space marine battle company so I had them do some test figs; needless to say I am glad I did...
I have seen children to better paint jobs than that.
No joke guys. Two BNIB 3-pack Marines were sent in as a test, it was not a salvage project or anything like that. I had a full battle company BNIB that I was looking at getting painted. This was many years ago.
Dinamarth wrote: No joke guys. Two BNIB 3-pack Marines were sent in as a test, it was not a salvage project or anything like that. I had a full battle company BNIB that I was looking at getting painted. This was many years ago.
Three colors, flocked and based. What more do you want?
So the entire endorsement video was actually a subliminal criticism of Blue Table rather than an endorsement...? Despite the wide open amount of 'favors' Blue Table does for MWG and the backscratching and the previous endorsement video...?
Sorry mate, that reads like the lunar landings conspiracies I get told by smelly people on the bus. MWG are totally guilty of cynical favored endorsements with timing that was entirely prompted and cronyism, much as some of their fans don't want to hear it.
No. I am saying Matt could have done a much better job if he really wanted to make the case BTP is a great service. He chose not to, and this is what people should take away from it.
It still was a bad move on his part, would have been better to sit this one out.. Most of the other Table-top news media on youtube have stayed clear of picking any side in this... Better to stay neutral then advocate or trash something.. "stay out of it" would have been the smart move here..
And for him sending subtle message by showing "crappy painted stuff" that is kinda far fetched and would go over most peoples heads..
What he could do now to "save face" is to publicy say that he was wrong... but the smart thing to do is just let it fade away.. Hopefully people will just remember how badly BTP screwed up and not that MWG was involved hehe..
Sit out? why? do you ever listen to the Radio or Watch TV? what do you think happens there? do you watch sports? its common practice to endorse products. what I don't understand is why the critics are so infuriated and offended that he would make an endorsement video. listen to the radio. watch as radio hosts claim they use the same product that they are advertising. its been going on for years. you can't dispute the fact that there are a lot of BTP customers who have enjoyed and promoted their commissions. yes, there are those who also have questionable work done. but Matt is a business owner. If he gets free commissions or a trip to Valhalla and all he has to do is advertise a painting service on a video, mind you its a video that you have to click on. you don't even have to watch it. you are a critic of BTP and you see this video on MWGs list, you know its an endorsement or advertisement…you don't have to watch it. its not force fed to you on your favorite battle report videos. He has an obligation to pay his employees, his employees get paid because MWG produces battle reports that we all watch. its a benefit to MWG to have the models in these battle reports painted so its a no brainer. BTP paints them free models they can use on their website and we get battle reports. I can't tell from the battle reports if the models have eyes or drilled bolt guns. I can't tell the difference in the battle report if the model is painted by BTP or DoI. Do people get upset if they use Frontline gaming mats? they plug FLG every time. So, because some people don't like BTP…MWG is a sell out? Matt would be a sell out if he put a video out of GW and all the great stuff they do, all the great decisions. Matt would be a sell out if one day he filmed a video where he boasts about GW tactics and how it was a great idea to nearly bankrupt his business and that GW is the best company is a world and they treat their distributors with distinction. people need to get over Matts decision to plug BTP. they took a dump on this guys dwarves but I've seen good work from them before.
There's nothing out of the norm with a clearly marked "paid advertisement", but I think the issue was how MWG went about it... not simply the fact that they were advertising something (which they often do).
The only thing that I think made people weary was when Matt asked for peoples positive reviews. And honestly, thats not a big deal. when your favorite author puts out a new book, would you use the negative quotes on your blurb?
How good is an endorsement/advertisement if there are negative remarks associated with it. The dude makes videos for us to watch and we would rather see painted models. who cares who paints them and who really cares that they got a trip to Valhalla for it. If I played 40K for a living, you know damn right I would do whats necessary to advance my company. only problem is that 40K unfortunately has a base of players with Socialization problems and an unfounded hatred for anything that doesn't go 150% their way. I find it as silly to get mad at this as the guys who play Flames of War and get pissed off that your german army coats don't have the same distinct markings from the ones the actual germans used in the winter of '44.
Johnnytorrance wrote: The only thing that I think made people weary was when Matt asked for peoples positive reviews. And honestly, thats not a big deal. when your favorite author puts out a new book, would you use the negative quotes on your blurb?
How good is an endorsement/advertisement if there are negative remarks associated with it. The dude makes videos for us to watch and we would rather see painted models. who cares who paints them and who really cares that they got a trip to Valhalla for it. If I played 40K for a living, you know damn right I would do whats necessary to advance my company. only problem is that 40K unfortunately has a base of players with Socialization problems and an unfounded hatred for anything that doesn't go 150% their way. I find it as silly to get mad at this as the guys who play Flames of War and get pissed off that your german army coats don't have the same distinct markings from the ones the actual germans used in the winter of '44.
So FoW players have had a problem with you in the past, ergo all consumers should just shut up and not comment on how MWG conducts themselves on social media?
I think you've lost the thread a bit.
People weren't concerned when MWG touted Blue Table before this incident. They were concerned when MWG asked for only positive reviews for BTP AFTER they massively dropped the ball with Tenebre's army. They were concerned when Matt brushed off any mention of Tenebre's case. We expect more from the people we get our information from. The backlash was well earned.
It's fine to support another company with your own company, it's fine to receive kickbacks from a company that you are supporting.
But when you put your own name behind another company and that company feths up, it's your name behind it that's getting fethed up too. Especially when they feth up publicly and then you go on AFTER they fethed up to endorse them.
That's how endorsements work... you put your name behind someone else and when that someone else feths up, your name gets dragged through the mud as well... that's why you don't endorse people unless you actually have confidence in them.
The problem with the MWG endorsement was the manner and timing of it; to specifically ask for 'only positive reviews' at a time when the Tenebre affair had really gained visibility, and for Matt to act very dismissively towards the problem (seemingly painting Tenebre as some kind of troublemaker, and Blue Table Painting as the victim), was very suspicious - it gave the impression that MWG was prepared to side with their business partner (a miniature painting service) over the players they supposedly represent.
Plus, people have mentioned that Matt's apparently not very enthusiastic performance, and poor choice of BTP painted models to showcase in the video, suggests that he doesn't even believe his own hype.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Plus, people have mentioned that Matt's apparently not very enthusiastic performance, and poor choice of BTP painted models to showcase in the video, suggests that he doesn't even believe his own hype.
Having seen plenty of MWG videos, I doubt it. He's got an overall bland personality, and given their inability to learn even basic game rules correctly I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't tell a good paintjob from a poor one.
Dinamarth wrote: This is my unfortunate BTP experience from years ago. I had an entire space marine battle company so I had them do some test figs; needless to say I am glad I did...
Seriously excellent drybrushing on the base though!
Dinamarth wrote: This is my unfortunate BTP experience from years ago. I had an entire space marine battle company so I had them do some test figs; needless to say I am glad I did...
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Plus, people have mentioned that Matt's apparently not very enthusiastic performance, and poor choice of BTP painted models to showcase in the video, suggests that he doesn't even believe his own hype.
If you want to understand the relationship between MWG and BTP a little better, take a look at this batrep.
Dave is playing Shawn and they are talking. Lots of small details that paint a picture of the love / hate that goes on. Pay attention to when Shawn is talking, and listen for when Dave says "Yeah, yeah", "That's right" or anything else to move things along. There's a very nuanced impatience underlying the exchange, at odds with everything else going on in the room, that stands out when you listen for it.
Without trying to assign a greater significance to the conversation than what it deserves, one of the players views the other as his lesser.
Oh, and listen to Shawn describe his strategy for the game. Starts at around 26 minutes, he lays out all all these plans for how he's going to use the board then he ignores what he just said.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Plus, people have mentioned that Matt's apparently not very enthusiastic performance, and poor choice of BTP painted models to showcase in the video, suggests that he doesn't even believe his own hype.
If you want to understand the relationship between MWG and BTP a little better, take a look at this batrep.
Dave is playing Shawn and they are talking. Lots of small details that paint a picture of the love / hate that goes on. Pay attention to when Shawn is talking, and listen for when Dave says "Yeah, yeah", "That's right" or anything else to move things along. There's a very nuanced impatience underlying the exchange, at odds with everything else going on in the room, that stands out when you listen for it.
Without trying to assign a greater significance to the conversation than what it deserves, one of the players views the other as his lesser.
Oh, and listen to Shawn describe his strategy for the game. Starts at around 26 minutes, he lays out all all these plans for how he's going to use the board then he ignores what he just said.
If you were trying to paint a picture of Dave not likeing Shawn and making a stand against him I think you were wrong in reffering to that video. Dave says several times that he loves Shawn and so on, hugs him and what have you. Either way it has nothing to do with this thread..
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Plus, people have mentioned that Matt's apparently not very enthusiastic performance, and poor choice of BTP painted models to showcase in the video, suggests that he doesn't even believe his own hype.
If you want to understand the relationship between MWG and BTP a little better, take a look at this batrep.
Whatever it is that you're seeing... I'm not seeing it.
So the entire endorsement video was actually a subliminal criticism of Blue Table rather than an endorsement...? Despite the wide open amount of 'favors' Blue Table does for MWG and the backscratching and the previous endorsement video...?
Sorry mate, that reads like the lunar landings conspiracies I get told by smelly people on the bus. MWG are totally guilty of cynical favored endorsements with timing that was entirely prompted and cronyism, much as some of their fans don't want to hear it.
No. I am saying Matt could have done a much better job if he really wanted to make the case BTP is a great service. He chose not to, and this is what people should take away from it.
It still was a bad move on his part, would have been better to sit this one out.. Most of the other Table-top news media on youtube have stayed clear of picking any side in this... Better to stay neutral then advocate or trash something.. "stay out of it" would have been the smart move here..
And for him sending subtle message by showing "crappy painted stuff" that is kinda far fetched and would go over most peoples heads..
What he could do now to "save face" is to publicy say that he was wrong... but the smart thing to do is just let it fade away.. Hopefully people will just remember how badly BTP screwed up and not that MWG was involved hehe..
Sit out? why? do you ever listen to the Radio or Watch TV? what do you think happens there? do you watch sports? its common practice to endorse products. what I don't understand is why the critics are so infuriated and offended that he would make an endorsement video. listen to the radio. watch as radio hosts claim they use the same product that they are advertising. its been going on for years. you can't dispute the fact that there are a lot of BTP customers who have enjoyed and promoted their commissions. yes, there are those who also have questionable work done. but Matt is a business owner. If he gets free commissions or a trip to Valhalla and all he has to do is advertise a painting service on a video, mind you its a video that you have to click on. you don't even have to watch it. you are a critic of BTP and you see this video on MWGs list, you know its an endorsement or advertisement…you don't have to watch it. its not force fed to you on your favorite battle report videos. He has an obligation to pay his employees, his employees get paid because MWG produces battle reports that we all watch. its a benefit to MWG to have the models in these battle reports painted so its a no brainer. BTP paints them free models they can use on their website and we get battle reports. I can't tell from the battle reports if the models have eyes or drilled bolt guns. I can't tell the difference in the battle report if the model is painted by BTP or DoI. Do people get upset if they use Frontline gaming mats? they plug FLG every time. So, because some people don't like BTP…MWG is a sell out? Matt would be a sell out if he put a video out of GW and all the great stuff they do, all the great decisions. Matt would be a sell out if one day he filmed a video where he boasts about GW tactics and how it was a great idea to nearly bankrupt his business and that GW is the best company is a world and they treat their distributors with distinction. people need to get over Matts decision to plug BTP. they took a dump on this guys dwarves but I've seen good work from them before.
If you really wanted to help Matt out, you should have taken my advice and let it Fade away. But instead you wrote a wall of Text, that was mostly ramblings...
Facts are BTP messed up, Matt should have stayed out of it, but now he Bet on the wrong horse.. I dont really think his ramblings on GW tactics is that good either to be honest, they come off mostly as a long whine about why he no longer can afford to sell their products. I'm not a GW fan and if Matt really disliked them so much he should stop Making Battle reports about their games... But Battle Reports about GW games get more hits, so Matt keeps making them.. In the End Matt is in it for Matt and nobody ells.. He was mad that he could not afford and make a decent profit on GWs miniatures, but then again GW Bat Reps gets more views so he keeps making them.. BTP gives him free painting so he endorse thier products! Why? so Matt can get more Minitures painted for Free or at a disscount.. He is a typical "Sell Out" if you ask me...
I personaly have never followed BTP or MWG on youtube etc.. Mini wargaming really suck at playing games if you ask me and their reports give me zero.. As a competetive, Tournament playing gamer i like to listen to people I know "Win tournaments", and have something cunstructive and instructively to tell me.. MWG is pure amateur hour if you ask me.. And the Fact that Matt cant keep his nose out of things and endorse a company like BTP really makes the "amateur" aspect shine through.. As I said before all the other "Internet table top News media" has stayed clear of this.. He should have done the same "if he was smart".. And you should have let the whole thing Fade away as I sugested, but you just had to comment dident you hehe.. You are not helping Matt and MWG here when you keep reminding people about what he has done? now do you?
Take my advice "LET IT FADE AWAY", and hopfully all anyone will remember in 6months time is that BTP screwed up...
To be fair to MWG, they(and every other third party retailer) have been screwed by GW's pricing and availability changes. The move to having half of their products be Webstore exclusives and treating their retailers as competitors is a real screwy situation.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Plus, people have mentioned that Matt's apparently not very enthusiastic performance, and poor choice of BTP painted models to showcase in the video, suggests that he doesn't even believe his own hype.
If you want to understand the relationship between MWG and BTP a little better, take a look at this batrep.
Whatever it is that you're seeing... I'm not seeing it.
Despite the other things they both said: whenever Shawn starts talking about something complicated, Dave starts talking over him to move the conversation along. It's subtle, but it keeps happening.
even in the event that matt was being cryptic no one should have too read between lines too get truth about a company they endorse or review .that imo is a bad review/endorsement and i will find my info elsewhere .that
being said i don't hate on mwg i just dont pay any mind too any review /endorsements or content they do . i have for about a year now watched front line gaming videos and followed there podcasts for all my bat reps news info and reviews by that company stepping up to help tenebre out shows me that care about the people they sell stuff and pass info to and that too me is worth supporting company's like there's
People are reading to much into the body language, to create this wmg and bt narrative.
You can tell in throws videos they are bassicly friends and somehow mwg got involved. It's hard to tell if bt pressured them or if they jumped in trying to cover a friend's back in the middle of social media back lash.
Trying to create a narrative and a story explaining what happened doesn't help.
Lockark wrote: People are reading to much into the body language, to create this wmg and bt narrative.
You can tell in throws videos they are bassicly friends and somehow mwg got involved. It's hard to tell if bt pressured them or if they jumped in trying to cover a friend's back in the middle of social media back lash.
Trying to create a narrative and a story explaining what happened doesn't help.
Just judge the actions on their own merit.
its tinfoil hat stuff. reading between the lines is one thing but when you start over analyzing every little thing someone does and attribute hidden meaning to it you're headed for crazy town.
when you stare at something long enough you still start to see what you want to see in it.
I watched matt's btp review videos and i didn't see what theblacklegion was seeing.
According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
M0ff3l wrote: According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
I don't understand why you are posting this here. To gloat? Because the "I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be going back to how you questioned even the emails, and claimed that Ten wasn't reading his actual model request details.
Yet when people have brought up similar things on your own thread you have claimed you feel attacked.
So please tell us why you feel it was needed to post that.
M0ff3l wrote: According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
I don't understand why you are posting this here. To gloat? Because the "I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be going back to how you questioned even the emails, and claimed that Ten wasn't reading his actual model request details.
Yet when people have brought up similar things on your own thread you have claimed you feel attacked.
So please tell us why you feel it was needed to post that.
No, its not to gloat, its to show how they are now interracting with customers who dont ask for it and didnt do it for someone who asked. Just because I was sceptical and asked for proof doesnt mean I dont feel sorry for Tenebre.
Also I didnt claim he didnt read it, I was wondering why he asked for special treatment even though they tell you no interraction between painter and client (which isnt even correct anymore, appearantly). Its a fact that BTP said, yeah sure we can do that and they didnt.
And lastly I got called a liar and a coward, that is 100% attacking me. What I did was ASK for written proof of BTP saying "Yes we will go against our agreement and make an exception for you" and WONDER why Tenebre didnt change his mind when he read:
We need from you a single document that we can print out and put in a bin with your models such that Assembler and Painter will all know what to do without any further input. The artists do not have access to company email.
You may use the attached as a fill-in-the-blanks or just respond to this email. It is up to you to give us all the information that we need.
Nothing from emails or phone calls will make it to the artist. It ALL must go into a single written document.
M0ff3l wrote: According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
I don't understand why you are posting this here. To gloat? Because the "I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be going back to how you questioned even the emails, and claimed that Ten wasn't reading his actual model request details.
Yet when people have brought up similar things on your own thread you have claimed you feel attacked.
So please tell us why you feel it was needed to post that.
Because he is a white knight for BTP, and for some reasons thinks that BTP hasn't been watching his thread, which as this point is about a zero percent chance.
M0ff3l wrote: According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
I don't understand why you are posting this here. To gloat? Because the "I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be going back to how you questioned even the emails, and claimed that Ten wasn't reading his actual model request details.
Yet when people have brought up similar things on your own thread you have claimed you feel attacked.
So please tell us why you feel it was needed to post that.
Because he is a white knight for BTP, and for some reasons thinks that BTP hasn't been watching his thread, which as this point is about a zero percent chance.
I just linked to a video of them saying they were in contact with some client, or does he have a post around here too that I didnt see?
M0ff3l wrote: According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
I don't understand why you are posting this here. To gloat? Because the "I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be going back to how you questioned even the emails, and claimed that Ten wasn't reading his actual model request details.
Yet when people have brought up similar things on your own thread you have claimed you feel attacked.
So please tell us why you feel it was needed to post that.
Because he is a white knight for BTP, and for some reasons thinks that BTP hasn't been watching his thread, which as this point is about a zero percent chance.
I just linked to a video of them saying they were in contact with some client, or does he have a post around here too that I didnt see?
Ah yes, I too believe the man who sent out edited emails to potential customers from a customer who is now in a legal battle with them. That just screams trustworthiness
M0ff3l wrote: According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
I don't understand why you are posting this here. To gloat? Because the "I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be going back to how you questioned even the emails, and claimed that Ten wasn't reading his actual model request details.
Yet when people have brought up similar things on your own thread you have claimed you feel attacked.
So please tell us why you feel it was needed to post that.
Because he is a white knight for BTP, and for some reasons thinks that BTP hasn't been watching his thread, which as this point is about a zero percent chance.
I just linked to a video of them saying they were in contact with some client, or does he have a post around here too that I didnt see?
Ah yes, I too believe the man who sent out edited emails to potential customers from a customer who is now in a legal battle with them. That just screams trustworthiness
Well you seem to believe anything thats read in videos without proof, so I was assuming that you would yeah, my bad!
Im sorry that im asking you for this much "evidence", but having to re-watch a 47 min video just to hear everything again and taking your word for it that its really what everything says. Thats just not how I think these sort of things should go. But Im sure these things will be 100% cleared up once legal action has been taken anyways, so you dont have to show me anything anyways.
Your attitude has been a constant in dismissing everything that has happened in light of Ten's order, and now you post with the coy post " I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be you attempting to gloat and continue to turn a blind eye to this.
Im sorry that im asking you for this much "evidence", but having to re-watch a 47 min video just to hear everything again and taking your word for it that its really what everything says. Thats just not how I think these sort of things should go. But Im sure these things will be 100% cleared up once legal action has been taken anyways, so you dont have to show me anything anyways.
Your attitude has been a constant in dismissing everything that has happened in light of Ten's order, and now you post with the coy post " I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be you attempting to gloat and continue to turn a blind eye to this.
Im sure you can understand my intentions better than that I intended them
my bad for trying to post updates here, I instantly regret it bye!
Well you seem to believe anything thats read in videos without proof, so I was assuming that you would yeah, my bad!
So you should also post screenshots (with names blacked out of course) of your interactions with BTP. How are we to believe your posts in quotes of what you claim to be your interactions with BTP? You could be posting anything.
Im sorry that im asking you for this much "evidence", but having to re-watch a 47 min video just to hear everything again and taking your word for it that its really what everything says. Thats just not how I think these sort of things should go. But Im sure these things will be 100% cleared up once legal action has been taken anyways, so you dont have to show me anything anyways.
Your attitude has been a constant in dismissing everything that has happened in light of Ten's order, and now you post with the coy post " I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be you attempting to gloat and continue to turn a blind eye to this.
Im sure you can understand my intentions better than that I intended them
my bad for trying to post updates here, I instantly regret it bye!
my lord he is still trying to say i am making everything up? that BTP are saviors unto the gaming world and I am just some mean client who makes up stories to pick on the big company?
the levels of absurdity that would have to exist for this to be true...... I begged for months on end for communication and yet was ignored and even mocked (sending a picture of the bale tauras's butt when i asked for his face for 3 weeks straight)
i stand by that he is in league with them on some level. No normal person would ever support a random company with such fervor. Let alone accuse a client of just lying... which again makes no sense... the work speaks for itself.
also thanks for the ignore function mention.. i forgot it existed
Man, this just sucks, blue table painting look terrible here. The miniwargaming as a pr company side of this is surreal. Does spin control even work in the small world of wargaming?
Crablezworth wrote: Man, this just sucks, btp look terrible here. The miniwargaming as a pr company side of this is surreal. Does spin control even work in the small world of wargaming?
According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
No thanks. I refuse to give web traffic to black table drybrushing or mwg.
tenebre wrote: my lord he is still trying to say i am making everything up? that BTP are saviors unto the gaming world and I am just some mean client who makes up stories to pick on the big company?
the levels of absurdity that would have to exist for this to be true...... I begged for months on end for communication and yet was ignored and even mocked (sending a picture of the bale tauras's butt when i asked for his face for 3 weeks straight)
i stand by that he is in league with them on some level. No normal person would ever support a random company with such fervor. Let alone accuse a client of just lying... which again makes no sense... the work speaks for itself.
also thanks for the ignore function mention.. i forgot it existed
Did you see the pic of his model being painted in the thread he started. By he's standard BTP DID do a great job on your models, so we can only guess what goes on in a mind like that. Best to leave it at "Well at least my thread help you and others get better service out of BTP, your welcome (insult from RED Dwarf here)."
I begged for months on end for communication and yet was ignored and even mocked (sending a picture of the bale tauras's butt when i asked for his face for 3 weeks straight)
this should be plastered all over the internet...
that is NOT the way a professional service should be treating their customers...
for the size, and expense, of the job you gave them, it should have come a little respect thrown in for free...
A customer will have no contract with the artist and nothing the customer says in phone calls will get forwarded to the artist? are these artist prisoners of some kind? Locked in a cell with models and request slid under the door with the evening meal?
I cannot think of a worse way to arrange commissions like this than removing all contact between the customer and the person doing the work.
The thing is that guy is full of gak. He constantly claims Ten is lying, he started up a project with BTP for the soul reason of trying to counter this thread. Not only does he bluntly consider everything bad about BTP to not be true he keeps suggesting that Ten lies or is stupid.. It is most likely he is employed by BTP or is a relative and thus anything I hear from him I consider useless..
carlos13th wrote: A customer will have no contract with the artist and nothing the customer says in phone calls will get forwarded to the artist? are these artist prisoners of some kind?
tenebre wrote: my lord he is still trying to say i am making everything up? that BTP are saviors unto the gaming world and I am just some mean client who makes up stories to pick on the big company?
the levels of absurdity that would have to exist for this to be true...... I begged for months on end for communication and yet was ignored and even mocked (sending a picture of the bale tauras's butt when i asked for his face for 3 weeks straight)
i stand by that he is in league with them on some level. No normal person would ever support a random company with such fervor. Let alone accuse a client of just lying... which again makes no sense... the work speaks for itself.
also thanks for the ignore function mention.. i forgot it existed
As painful as it might be to read his posts, don't make too much of what M0ff3l has to say. No one else is.
M0ff3l has another thread going about how great it is working with BTP and showing off what they have done on his project. While I doubt he's aware, he's making your point for you.
Im sorry that im asking you for this much "evidence", but having to re-watch a 47 min video just to hear everything again and taking your word for it that its really what everything says. Thats just not how I think these sort of things should go. But Im sure these things will be 100% cleared up once legal action has been taken anyways, so you dont have to show me anything anyways.
Your attitude has been a constant in dismissing everything that has happened in light of Ten's order, and now you post with the coy post " I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be you attempting to gloat and continue to turn a blind eye to this.
Im sure you can understand my intentions better than that I intended them
my bad for trying to post updates here, I instantly regret it bye!
And i'm sure if you understand that we'll all draw our own conclusions based on the volumes and volumes of writing you've done on the topic of Blue Table Painting, just the same. Just as you know your intentions, we can all read between lines. In any event, see you in your other thread with wonderfully positive edited emails lacking any kind of header verifying information at all. Which isn't suspect in the least!
... now before you hit that reply button, don't misconstrue my intentions!
... back on something approaching topic.... I really hope Ten gets some kind of restitution for all this. What a horrible situation. :(
edit: I would be highly skeptical of using Blue Table Painting for my own miniature painting service.
I begged for months on end for communication and yet was ignored and even mocked (sending a picture of the bale tauras's butt when i asked for his face for 3 weeks straight)
this should be plastered all over the internet...
that is NOT the way a professional service should be treating their customers...
for the size, and expense, of the job you gave them, it should have come a little respect thrown in for free...
cheers
jah
jah - I am a big fan of your work and really enjoy the images in your JAHminis thread. You are one of my five top painters right now, and I do follow many talented artists. Thank you for sharing!
Just wanted to point out this thread (and the one on Warseer) are in the top 10 results people see when searching for "blue table painting" on Google. Tenebre's original videos about the problems show up in the top 10 videos on the term 'blue table painting' on YouTube. This thread, plus tenebre's original videos, come up in the top 10 search results for the term "blue table painting." So this issue is plastered all over search engines, if not websites.
On the other hand: from what I can tell about traffic to Blue Table Painting's website, a lot of it is based on links back from a) blogs and b) natural search results off the term 'miniature painting service.' The company occupies the top spot for that term, and there are links back to the site on about 2,300 blogs. When I dug a little deeper, I can see how their SEO is working to achieve that top ranking, and I can see where there's been some reputation management going on to keep them there.
So there's a little misalignment. Anyone with an interest in ensuring this issue gets maximum visibility can take a few simple steps to change the situation.
1) Refer to the company as 'Blue Table Painting' - not 'BTP' - in your posts.
2) Refer to the company as a 'miniature painting service' at least once anywhere you post about the company.
3) Link back to this thread or the warseer thread from anywhere else on the Internet. Other forums are good, but blogs (especially on blogger and wordpress) will have the greatest impact on search engine placement. Anything that uses Disqus is going to provide a bump.
4) Include tenebre's videos in other forums. The placement of the videos a reciprocal impact on threads linking to them.
5) Favorite tenebre's original videos on YouTube. Favoriting the videos will reduce the placement decay that occurs as new videos are posted.
Just to be clear, it would not take a huge amount of activity to get this thread into the top search results for 'miniature painting service' by following this strategy. They have put a lot of work into getting that top spot, and it would not be that hard to piggy back off those efforts.
Im sorry that im asking you for this much "evidence", but having to re-watch a 47 min video just to hear everything again and taking your word for it that its really what everything says. Thats just not how I think these sort of things should go. But Im sure these things will be 100% cleared up once legal action has been taken anyways, so you dont have to show me anything anyways.
Your attitude has been a constant in dismissing everything that has happened in light of Ten's order, and now you post with the coy post " I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be you attempting to gloat and continue to turn a blind eye to this.
Im sure you can understand my intentions better than that I intended them
my bad for trying to post updates here, I instantly regret it bye!
You sir, are a fifth columnist and your indulgence in passive aggressive gloating and goading, immediately followed by dying swan routines every time you're confronted about it, does allow people to gauge your intentions fairly easily, indeed your entire character.
And none of it reads nicely.
Jog off out of this thread and keep to your own, you've made your point here ad nauseam and I was fairly certain you flounced out of here vowing never to return at least twice before... You're like a bloody stuck record. Go flutter your fan and sneer somewhere else.
Im sorry that im asking you for this much "evidence", but having to re-watch a 47 min video just to hear everything again and taking your word for it that its really what everything says. Thats just not how I think these sort of things should go. But Im sure these things will be 100% cleared up once legal action has been taken anyways, so you dont have to show me anything anyways.
Your attitude has been a constant in dismissing everything that has happened in light of Ten's order, and now you post with the coy post " I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be you attempting to gloat and continue to turn a blind eye to this.
Im sure you can understand my intentions better than that I intended them
my bad for trying to post updates here, I instantly regret it bye!
You sir, are a fifth columnist and your indulgence in passive aggressive gloating and goading, immediately followed by dying swan routines every time you're confronted about it, does allow people to gauge your intentions fairly easily, indeed your entire character.
And none of it reads nicely.
Jog off out of this thread and keep to your own, you've made your point here ad nauseam and I was fairly certain you flounced out of here vowing never to return at least twice before... You're like a bloody stuck record. Go flutter your fan and sneer somewhere else.
Actually, let M0ff3l comment and say thank you to him every time he takes the time to share his thoughts.
On the one hand, the pictures he is posting speak for themselves. On the other hand, there's a reason to have him posting here, which will become clear.
I don't think it's been said for a page or two, so just in case any one forgot:
Tenebre, we love you for making the original post and videos. Most of us would not have the guts or constitution to do it (but then most of us wouldn't have had the cash to make the commission in the first place).
We have seen exaltations of peoples enjoyment of beautifully crafted miniatures, marvellously generous offers from painting studios and expert commentaries from professionals, all as a reaction to your unfortunate predicament.
While there may be a few who's intentions are to cause malice, take heart that the greater number of us wish you a speedy and positive resolution.
Thank you from all of us.
(edit: blue table miniature painting )
I begged for months on end for communication and yet was ignored and even mocked (sending a picture of the bale tauras's butt when i asked for his face for 3 weeks straight)
this should be plastered all over the internet...
that is NOT the way a professional service should be treating their customers...
for the size, and expense, of the job you gave them, it should have come a little respect thrown in for free...
cheers
jah
jah - I am a big fan of your work and really enjoy the images in your JAHminis thread. You are one of my five top painters right now, and I do follow many talented artists. Thank you for sharing!
Just wanted to point out this thread (and the one on Warseer) are in the top 10 results people see when searching for "blue table painting" on Google. Tenebre's original videos about the problems show up in the top 10 videos on the term 'blue table painting' on YouTube. This thread, plus tenebre's original videos, come up in the top 10 search results for the term "blue table painting." So this issue is plastered all over search engines, if not websites.
On the other hand: from what I can tell about traffic to Blue Table Painting's website, a lot of it is based on links back from a) blogs and b) natural search results off the term 'miniature painting service.' The company occupies the top spot for that term, and there are links back to the site on about 2,300 blogs. When I dug a little deeper, I can see how their SEO is working to achieve that top ranking, and I can see where there's been some reputation management going on to keep them there.
So there's a little misalignment. Anyone with an interest in ensuring this issue gets maximum visibility can take a few simple steps to change the situation.
1) Refer to the company as 'Blue Table Painting' - not 'BTP' - in your posts.
2) Refer to the company as a 'miniature painting service' at least once anywhere you post about the company.
3) Link back to this thread or the warseer thread from anywhere else on the Internet. Other forums are good, but blogs (especially on blogger and wordpress) will have the greatest impact on search engine placement. Anything that uses Disqus is going to provide a bump.
4) Include tenebre's videos in other forums. The placement of the videos a reciprocal impact on threads linking to them.
5) Favorite tenebre's original videos on YouTube. Favoriting the videos will reduce the placement decay that occurs as new videos are posted.
Just to be clear, it would not take a huge amount of activity to get this thread into the top search results for 'miniature painting service' by following this strategy. They have put a lot of work into getting that top spot, and it would not be that hard to piggy back off those efforts.
Thanks for pointing this out ; edited my post a few up so that i actually spelled Blue Table Painting and not BTP (which, by the by, stands for Blue Table Painting).
@techsoldaten: thanks for the high praise...
i can easily count off at least ten painters who are WAY better than me, just off the top of my head...
that said, i work very hard to improve with each mini i paint, and hope that, over the last ten years, i have achieved a personal style of painting that is easily recognizable when i post a mini...
@tenebre: thanks for posting in my WIP thread...
it's always nice to have collectors aware of my work...
i hope that, one day, i can paint an HQ model for you, and show you what an actual award winning, industry professional painter's minis look like in hand...
hell, i might even throw you one WIP shot during the process...
i can't promise it won't be a shot of a Bull Taurus' arse though...
hahahahaha
I think the most disturbing take away for me is the the owner of blue table painting suggesting he may have to fire people, like that somehow fixes his client's frustration with the horrid treatment. The owner of blue table painting just comes off as passive agressive with the suggestion of flying out a painter, and the constant delaying with casual inference that his client should somehow feel bad and other people really seem to like their models. All of this just seems like customer service 101 and the owner seems like an inept middle manager with a questionable ability to prioritize. The very fact that one party wanted the video taken down is also just puzzling, streisand is here to stay.
Art, choice of color, conversions, concepts, all subjective. But there was a lot of feedback from the client that was not being heard and communication with specific instructions are not hard to verify. Tenebre not only has gone into great detail, he also says what he likes as well. The other side basically seems like the infamous episode of a certain television show. It's hidden under painful hr speak but someone who usually is used to being mr bossy pants now has to put on the customer service hat and eat gak over poorly handled service.
That's an amusing and really apt meme Crab, the denial of commonly accepted customer service mantras, the shifting of blame and responsibility and the threats to staff all parallel 'Amy's' from that now infamous episode.
Blue Table Painting really are the 'Amy's Baking' of the miniature painting service world.
The only real difference I'm seeing is that Amy and her husband were run of the mill lunatics, whereas Shawn at Blue Table Painting sees himself as the moses of a new form of business model, and is entirely operating to a set business plan from his 'mentor', out in the desert with his desire to set Blue Table Painting up as the walmart of miniature painting service businesses, disguised as the Harrods of the miniature painting service businesses.
He wants a Model T Ford production line, keeping projects interchangable between staff, utilizing quick-fix airbrush and drybrush techniques, keeping the artist away from the client, presumably to avoid losing both should the artist tire of living in Blue Table Painting 's gulag/apartments and decide to set up their own miniature painting service.
The more I read about the lengths gone to to ensure promotion of this miniature painting service via search engines, Mini WarGaming etc the more I am convinced that Blue Table Painting have fallen very far from the early videos I so enjoyed and the original enthusiasm and love of the models and what he does replaced by a cynical and very underhanded ethos by Blue Table Painting, who seem to have become everything you ever feared about in a Miniature Painting Service.
How good is an endorsement/advertisement if there are negative remarks associated with it. The dude makes videos for us to watch and we would rather see painted models.
techsoldaten wrote: Actually, let M0ff3l comment and say thank you to him every time he takes the time to share his thoughts.
On the one hand, the pictures he is posting speak for themselves. On the other hand, there's a reason to have him posting here, which will become clear.
Indeed. He is actually helping Ten, although he probably doesn't know it.
alxies wrote: How good is an endorsement/advertisement if there are negative remarks associated with it. The dude makes videos for us to watch and we would rather see painted models.
The problem is when he requests positive comments - which falsifies the curve.
He would have been much better off disabling comments on the video, rather than trying to troll for positive reviews.
Instead he got a lot of negative posts - in part because he was trying to shill for Blue Table miniatures painting - and a large number of people are not happy with the quality of work that BTP spits out.
Make videos, fine - but if you call for reviews on a substandard product, do not be surprised when people say that it is a substandard product.
According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
Argh... That army looks really bad :(.. These dudes really dont know how to do propper shading??.. If you are going from black to green, I'm looking at the horrible cloaks here, you need to use more then 3 colours LOLZ.. 0:48 looks horrible with a mix of highlights both gray, and yellow, and it has the darker gren running down into the yellow WTF.. 1:15 Wings are not finished, the Top of them are all black... And when you do shading on cloaks YOU NEVER EVER mix two types of higlights.. If you are going from black to yellow you stick with it you do not suddenly start higlighting it GRAY at the top... If the ligthsource is comming from the Base "dont know if this is the idea here?" you fade to black on the top but you also need to paint Shadows on the bottom, and not in a way that it is done here.. When they have just drawn 3 fields. Yellow.. then a straight line Green.. then straight line black.. "LIGHT DOSENT reflect that way In IRL, use a flashlight or lighsource and project it from the bottom on the miniatures, and you will see excly where the light hits... AND if you don't know how light reflects of objects you should not try to do advanced technichs.. BTP painters need to be sent to artschool for christ sake.. Or atleast have someone come and show them how its done...
If M0ff3I is trying to suport BTP... This video only helps to show that they cant paint for gak...I'm Sorry if I saw this in IRL and someone said he paid for it I would feel so sorry for the person owning it..
According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
Argh... That army looks really bad :(.. These dudes really dont know how to do propper shading??.. If you are going from black to green, I'm looking at the horrible cloaks here, you need to use more then 3 colours LOLZ.. 0:48 looks horrible with a mix of highlights both gray, and yellow, and it has the darker gren running down into the yellow WTF.. 1:15 Wings are not finished, the Top of them are all black... And when you do shading on cloaks YOU NEVER EVER mix two types of higlights.. If you are going from black to yellow you stick with it you do not suddenly start higlighting it GRAY at the top... If the ligthsource is comming from the Base "dont know if this is the idea here?" you fade to black on the top but you also need to paint Shadows on the bottom, and not in a way that it is done here.. When they have just drawn 3 fields. Yellow.. then a straight line Green.. then straight line black.. "LIGHT DOSENT reflect that way In IRL, use a flashlight or lighsource and project it from the bottom on the miniatures, and you will see excly where the light hits... AND if you don't know how light reflects of objects you should not try to do advanced technichs.. BTP painters need to be sent to artschool for christ sake.. Or atleast have someone come and show them how its done...
If M0ff3I is trying to suport BTP... This video only helps to show that they cant paint for gak...I'm Sorry if I saw this in IRL and someone said he paid for it I would feel so sorry for the person owning it..
This army just looks bad and UNFINISHED period :(
I stopped the video after about a minute, between the shaky unfocused camera and the cloak on the lord thing it was enough. Seriously If you are going to blend, friggen blend. I don't think I have commented on this thread yet, but holy cow thats just bad work for a commision company. I would be pissed if I got that in the mail. I'd be more pissed if I delivered that to a client when I was still doing table top quality commision work (locally to support my plastic crack habit).
According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
Centerpiece model at 3:23....all I can say is What Da Fuq is up with the riders weapon blade on top of that two headed dragon? Again the concept of idea is there....BTP just lacks the skill to execute it to realization.
According to this video the client and artist had a lot of contact about the minatures. They are keeping me updated with WIP and samples aswell, even tho I didnt ask for it. Maybe they learned from their mistakes here, which still sucks for Tenebre, and I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it...
Argh... That army looks really bad :(.. These dudes really dont know how to do propper shading??.. If you are going from black to green, I'm looking at the horrible cloaks here, you need to use more then 3 colours LOLZ.. 0:48 looks horrible with a mix of highlights both gray, and yellow, and it has the darker gren running down into the yellow WTF.. 1:15 Wings are not finished, the Top of them are all black... And when you do shading on cloaks YOU NEVER EVER mix two types of higlights.. If you are going from black to yellow you stick with it you do not suddenly start higlighting it GRAY at the top... If the ligthsource is comming from the Base "dont know if this is the idea here?" you fade to black on the top but you also need to paint Shadows on the bottom, and not in a way that it is done here.. When they have just drawn 3 fields. Yellow.. then a straight line Green.. then straight line black.. "LIGHT DOSENT reflect that way In IRL, use a flashlight or lighsource and project it from the bottom on the miniatures, and you will see excly where the light hits... AND if you don't know how light reflects of objects you should not try to do advanced technichs.. BTP painters need to be sent to artschool for christ sake.. Or atleast have someone come and show them how its done...
If M0ff3I is trying to suport BTP... This video only helps to show that they cant paint for gak...I'm Sorry if I saw this in IRL and someone said he paid for it I would feel so sorry for the person owning it..
This army just looks bad and UNFINISHED period :(
It looks fine to me for a speed paint, much better than tenebre's dwarves.
lots of pop and lots of contrast on that army. obviously it is not technically perfect, it is a speed paint.
i could criticize but then it would probably take me the better part of a year to paint all that $hit to a high standard so i will just stfu instead.
So I finally got around to watching that chaos warriors army "showcase"
There were mold lines on the top of some chaos warrior weapons, I will admit I am no saint when it comes to catching all mold lines but if you are a professional minature painting service like blue table painting I expect a higher degree of competence on the most basic of things.
What was with that random OSL on the weapons? It looks like they just dipped the axes in moot green and called it a day. Also the OSL on the outside center edges of the wings on the dragon, chimeras and flying character what was with that? Then the models got the pink foot that tenbre got with his dwarves except with green this time. Also there were subtle shots at tenbre saying how good they are at large themed armies and are always in contact with the person.
Im sorry that im asking you for this much "evidence", but having to re-watch a 47 min video just to hear everything again and taking your word for it that its really what everything says. Thats just not how I think these sort of things should go. But Im sure these things will be 100% cleared up once legal action has been taken anyways, so you dont have to show me anything anyways.
Your attitude has been a constant in dismissing everything that has happened in light of Ten's order, and now you post with the coy post " I cant imagine why they didnt do it for him if he asked for it..." seems to be you attempting to gloat and continue to turn a blind eye to this.
Im sure you can understand my intentions better than that I intended them
my bad for trying to post updates here, I instantly regret it bye!
You sir, are a fifth columnist and your indulgence in passive aggressive gloating and goading, immediately followed by dying swan routines every time you're confronted about it, does allow people to gauge your intentions fairly easily, indeed your entire character.
And none of it reads nicely.
Jog off out of this thread and keep to your own, you've made your point here ad nauseam and I was fairly certain you flounced out of here vowing never to return at least twice before... You're like a bloody stuck record. Go flutter your fan and sneer somewhere else.
I stopped the video after about a minute, between the shaky unfocused camera and the cloak on the lord thing it was enough. Seriously If you are going to blend, friggen blend. I don't think I have commented on this thread yet, but holy cow thats just bad work for a commision company. I would be pissed if I got that in the mail. I'd be more pissed if I delivered that to a client when I was still doing table top quality commision work (locally to support my plastic crack habit).
You might want to watch the last minute though. The most important part comes in at 6:30, where Shawn says this army 'really shows BTPs strength at doing large themed armies.'
Anyone looking to work with a miniature painting service should know that this is what you can expect from a large Blue Table Painting project. It's not a question of whether or not the paint job is bad, but whether or not the client actually wanted the army painted this way.
This is an important question. People with similar taste flock to similar companies to provide services and there are very clear parallels between the Chaos Dwarf army mentioned in the OP and the one seen in the video. If you want an army that looks like these, you call Blue Table Painting right away and see if they are willing to be your miniature painting service.
Since Blue Table Painting is the most prominent miniature painting service out there, they command a certain kind of authority. What people are reacting to is an evolution in the style of miniature painting, let's call this new style table bleue les fauves. It has more in common with the works of Henri Matisse than White Dwarf, and you people are all completely missing the fact it is happening.
This style is characterized by conspicuous mold lines, liberal use of raw undercoat to create consistency between shadows and the exposed details on the model, monohue skin tones applied by airbrush in a manner similar to what you could expect from an exploding bag of flour, and ethereal lighting effects that occur independently of the object. Looking at the heavy neon colors used on the bases and the way they do NOT affect the actual details on the model, another characteristic to consider is the idea that the base and the model are 2 different things that have nothing to do with one another. The fact they are glued together has no relevance, they are separate things that may not even exist in the same time and space. They challenge the perceptions of the viewer by forcing the mind to make this thing you see coherent, instead of the eye. Each model is a clever challenge for viewers to work out, similar to rules for unit coherency in tabletop games. It's magic.
Beyond the characteristic qualities of design, this process is industrial. You don't get the work of a single artist, you get the creative ideas of a set of artists working under severe time constraints and the oversight of a skilled business mentor with plenty of experience with social media and services like kickstarter and patreon. This is not the academy, this is the people's art and it reflects our modern times in ways that cannot be realized through high-end realism, shading and OSL techniques commonly employed by those who would elevate themselves to be the masters of the craft. These little tricks of the craft are simply copies of copies, like xeroxes in high definition, and table blue les fauves dares to change the toner and add some Elmer's to the mix.
By shunning convention and charting their own course, Shawn and the team at Blue Table Painting have broken new ground and injected new ideas into what it means to work with a miniature painting service. Tenebre and the people at Frontline Gaming should be considered degenerates in the sense that they cannot recognize this shift and the significance it has for a nearly 30 year old hobby. Their attacks on something bold and forward looking really speak for themselves, and I fear the impact tenebre's despicable legal assault might have on the emergence of this new style. The outcomes of legal action are unpredictable at best, and there's actually a chance the miniature painting service Blue Table Painting may be adversely affected by all this action.
You can support the artists from Spanish Fork, Utah by going to their Patreon page and signing up. Here's the link:
Right now, their patreonage is down from the $70 a month that was coming in before tenebre started this vitriolic hate campaign against the Blue Table Painting miniature service. Signing up to send Blue Table Painting your money on a monthly basis will help them to advance the aims and goals of table blue les fauves, fend off legal threats from St. Louis slicksters, and tells the world you recognize the art of miniature painting is not dead and deserves to evolve like other mediums. Look at what Blue Table Painting plans to do with your money once they have $10,000 a month coming in in patreonage.
"We can hire additional staff to create more content. We can travel to most gaming conventions and tournaments, give you much more content, cover more games systems, and branch out into different types of media (e.g. podcasting, live streaming, forums, mobile apps). We can be the premier source of all your table top gaming needs."
Anyone willing to give $10,000 a month will get 5 days of time spent with the creator of it all in the center of it all (Spanish Fort, Utah) as part of the Ultimate BTP Experience. It even includes a new item each month from the BTP clothing line, which is their effort to expand the wargaming medium into something you wear. You see, for a $120,000 a year investment in the commercial side of the business, you do not need to be burdened with actual ownership or a stake in the corporate entity that is Blue Table Painting, you can get shirts and caps from them instead.
Please consider giving. The other thing you can do is share Blue Table Painting's ads, which explain their pricing policies and how to ship models directly to them. Watch the entire video and tell me if these artists don't deserve some help.
It would appear that Blue Table Painting is NOT a reputable miniature painting service.
When I next employ a 'miniature painting service' it will not be 'Blue Table Painting'
This company and their cronies amaze me......as in how are they still in business.
Someone gets it.
If i were to employ a miniature painting service, I highly doubt it would be Blue Table painting based upon the service that Ten got when he employed a miniature painting service. That miniature painting service, of course, being Blue Table Painting, which he was not happy with the results he got and paid for.
But if you are thinking of employing a miniature painting service, and are considering using Blue Table Painting, then I encourage you to check out the following links:
Right now, their patreonage is down from the $70 a month that was coming in before tenebre started this vitriolic hate campaign against the Blue Table Painting miniature service. Signing up to send Blue Table Painting your money on a monthly basis will help them to advance the aims and goals of table blue les fauves, fend off legal threats from St. Louis slicksters, and tells the world you recognize the art of miniature painting is not dead and deserves to evolve like other mediums. Look at what Blue Table Painting plans to do with your money once they have $10,000 a month coming in in patreonage.
"We can hire additional staff to create more content. We can travel to most gaming conventions and tournaments, give you much more content, cover more games systems, and branch out into different types of media (e.g. podcasting, live streaming, forums, mobile apps). We can be the premier source of all your table top gaming needs."
Anyone willing to give $10,000 a month will get 5 days of time spent with the creator of it all in the center of it all (Spanish Fort, Utah) as part of the Ultimate Blue Table Painting Experience. It even includes a new item each month from the BTP clothing line, which is their effort to expand the wargaming medium into something you wear. You see, for a $120,000 a year investment in the commercial side of the business, you do not need to be burdened with actual ownership or a stake in the corporate entity that is Blue Table Painting, you can get shirts and caps from them instead.
Please consider giving. The other thing you can do is share Blue Table Painting's ads, which explain their pricing policies and how to ship models directly to them. Watch the entire video and tell me if these artists don't deserve some help.
One minor fixed for you. If you keep it as an acronym, people might not know that we mean the miniature painting service, Blue Table Painting.
Back to this investment opportunity.
Wait, for 120K i get a shirt... and a cap ? And i get to spend five days in the bustling, thriving metropolis of Spanish Fork ? With Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service ? I particularly enjoy where for the price of a limited edition Maserati (including sales tax!), i don't have to worry myself with jargonistic terms like "valuation", or "equity", or "customer acquisition cost", or fiddle with business plans written by gamers, or any of that nonsense. Nope this is a great investment vehicle ; fork over (oh wow.... fork ... Spanish fork... hell, Blue Table Painting (a miniature painting service) creativity must be rubbing off on me) 120 large, and BAM. I get not only a cap, but a shirt.
Techsoldat, thank you for showing me this path to financial independence, but also this beacon of illumination in the gaming industry.
It's a thread about BTP, otherwise known as Blue Table Painting, which is a miniature painting service, that is not known for their quality painting service. In fact, some might go as far as to say they provide badly painted miniatures for the money that you pay and top it with bad customer service.
Anyone willing to give $10,000 a month will get 5 days of time spent with the creator of it all in the center of it all (Spanish Fort, Utah) as part of the Ultimate BTP Experience. It even includes a new item each month from the BTP clothing line, which is their effort to expand the wargaming medium into something you wear. You see, for a $120,000 a year investment in the commercial side of the business, you do not need to be burdened with actual ownership or a stake in the corporate entity that is Blue Table Painting, you can get shirts and caps from them instead.
A miniature painting service branching into apparel? Madness they said, Impossibru they ranted... Yet Shawn and Blue Table Painting have already launched this daring (and very NSFW!!!) Tee and I'm floored by how much it emphasizes their miniature painting service mantra at Blue Table Painting...
Eggs wrote: It's a thread about BTP, otherwise known as Blue Table Painting, which is a miniature painting service, that is not known for their quality painting service. In fact, some might go as far as to say they provide badly painted miniatures for the money that you pay and top it with bad customer service.
These are outstanding examples of table bleue les fauves. The client did not understand the process, and the fact he is butchering his models underscores the point.
We should start a separate thread to discuss examples of table bleue les fauves and ask mods to ban tenebre.
A miniature painting service branching into apparel? Madness they said, Impossibru they ranted... Yet Shawn and Blue Table Painting have already launched this daring (and very NSFW!!!) Tee and I'm floored by how much it emphasizes their miniature painting service mantra at Blue Table Painting...
This is a terrible example of table bleue les fauves for the following reasons:
1) The heavy use of contrast. Black tends to stay black in this style, and certainly does not stand out against a white background.
2) The hard defined lines and edges. table bleue les fauves is all about semi-irregular edges applied with a drybrush or sprayed on with an airbrush.
3) The suggestion a single person is involved in the process. It takes a lot of people to produce a table bleue les fauves style project, starting with the person who takes the instructions. The style does not work when executing on a single person's vision, it takes a process.
In that green Chaos video a commentator said this.
"BTP really does an outstanding job on every project they do. Everyone there has the highest level of customer service and professionalism. John's attention to detail and willingness to adapt to client demands is second to none. Really amazing work! Proud to say, that army is mine. "
Also later he says the army was about 3k
He doesn't sound like a real person to me. He sounds like an advert.
I wonder if the apparel they're planning on developing will have the patented BTP look Techsoldaten mentioned... It may be difficult but I suspect if they only dye the shirts on the top (leaving the naked cloth color on the bottom of the clothing that you don't usually see half the time), airbrush bleach onto the clothing at odd angles to get their Chaos Dwarf OSL effect, and leave details like writing, logos, cuffs and collars the base color instead of another... it may just work! Of course, the non-matching base equivalent would have to be a differently colored and styled pair of pants. i.e. A blue dress shirt with green cloroxOSL sweat pants.
@Techsoldaten: I actually got a few odd looks when I physically LOL'ed reading "skin tones applied by airbrush in a manner similar to what you could expect from an exploding bag of flour". I suspect that effect would best be applied to the clothing line with an actual exploding bag of flour.
carlos13th wrote: In that green Chaos video a commentator said this.
"BTP really does an outstanding job on every project they do. Everyone there has the highest level of customer service and professionalism. John's attention to detail and willingness to adapt to client demands is second to none. Really amazing work! Proud to say, that army is mine. "
Also later he says the army was about 3k
He doesn't sound like a real person to me. He sounds like an advert.
It's smart to question what you read in comments on YouTube videos. You would be surprised to learn how many are generated by something other than people.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: I wonder if the apparel they're planning on developing will have the patented BTP look Techsoldaten mentioned...
Artistic movements cannot be patented, but business processes can. I wonder if Blue Table Painting will take the time to patent their business process since they are lead by a visionary business mentor. There's some magic to the way they do things.
warboss wrote: It may be difficult but I suspect if they only dye the shirts on the top (leaving the naked cloth color on the bottom of the clothing that you don't usually see half the time), airbrush bleach onto the clothing at odd angles to get their Chaos Dwarf OSL effect, and leave details like writing, logos, cuffs and collars the base color instead of another... it may just work! Of course, the non-matching base equivalent would have to be a differently colored and styled pair of pants. i.e. A blue dress shirt with green cloroxOSL sweat pants.
The shirt would seem uninspired at first, but look at the options available on the webpage. You can request a Blue Table Painting specialist contact you about assembly and custom paint for the shirt. Lady Averages herself is holding the dice in a way that suggests they could totally do the OSL for you. So this shirt is totally set up to go table bleue les fauves .
@Techsoldaten: I actually got a few odd looks when I physically LOL'ed reading "skin tones applied by airbrush in a manner similar to what you could expect from an exploding bag of flour". I suspect that effect would best be applied to the clothing line with an actual exploding bag of flour.
If anyone could pull off paint jobs made out of food, it would be the Blue Table Painting miniature painting service. What about Doritos orange bases or Hot Dog grease washes and varnishes?
techsoldaten wrote:Anyone willing to give $10,000 a month will get 5 days of time spent with the creator of it all in the center of it all (Spanish Fort, Utah) as part of the Ultimate BTP Experience. It even includes a new item each month from the BTP clothing line, which is their effort to expand the wargaming medium into something you wear. You see, for a $120,000 a year investment in the commercial side of the business, you do not need to be burdened with actual ownership or a stake in the corporate entity that is Blue Table Painting, you can get shirts and caps from them instead.
Wow, I leave this thread alone for a while and when I come back, BTP has gone from being run-of-the-mill scammers to purveyors of a Scientology'esque Twilight-Zone of the bizarre.
The shocking thing is that "The Creator Of It All" might actually believe his hype enough to expect that someone will give him 6 figures for a one week vacation to a suburb in Utah.
techsoldaten wrote:Anyone willing to give $10,000 a month will get 5 days of time spent with the creator of it all in the center of it all (Spanish Fort, Utah) as part of the Ultimate BTP Experience. It even includes a new item each month from the BTP clothing line, which is their effort to expand the wargaming medium into something you wear. You see, for a $120,000 a year investment in the commercial side of the business, you do not need to be burdened with actual ownership or a stake in the corporate entity that is Blue Table Painting, you can get shirts and caps from them instead.
Wow, I leave this thread alone for a while and when I come back, BTP has gone from being run-of-the-mill scammers to purveyors of a Scientology'esque Twilight-Zone of the bizarre.
The shocking thing is that "The Creator Of It All" might actually believe his hype enough to expect that someone will give him 6 figures for a one week vacation to a suburb in Utah.
carlos13th wrote: In that green Chaos video a commentator said this.
"BTP really does an outstanding job on every project they do. Everyone there has the highest level of customer service and professionalism. John's attention to detail and willingness to adapt to client demands is second to none. Really amazing work! Proud to say, that army is mine. "
Also later he says the army was about 3k
He doesn't sound like a real person to me. He sounds like an advert.
It's smart to question what you read in comments on YouTube videos. You would be surprised to learn how many are generated by something other than people.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warboss wrote: I wonder if the apparel they're planning on developing will have the patented BTP look Techsoldaten mentioned...
Artistic movements cannot be patented, but business processes can. I wonder if Blue Table Painting will take the time to patent their business process since they are lead by a visionary business mentor. There's some magic to the way they do things.
warboss wrote: It may be difficult but I suspect if they only dye the shirts on the top (leaving the naked cloth color on the bottom of the clothing that you don't usually see half the time), airbrush bleach onto the clothing at odd angles to get their Chaos Dwarf OSL effect, and leave details like writing, logos, cuffs and collars the base color instead of another... it may just work! Of course, the non-matching base equivalent would have to be a differently colored and styled pair of pants. i.e. A blue dress shirt with green cloroxOSL sweat pants.
The shirt would seem uninspired at first, but look at the options available on the webpage. You can request a Blue Table Painting specialist contact you about assembly and custom paint for the shirt. Lady Averages herself is holding the dice in a way that suggests they could totally do the OSL for you. So this shirt is totally set up to go table bleue les fauves .
@Techsoldaten: I actually got a few odd looks when I physically LOL'ed reading "skin tones applied by airbrush in a manner similar to what you could expect from an exploding bag of flour". I suspect that effect would best be applied to the clothing line with an actual exploding bag of flour.
If anyone could pull off paint jobs made out of food, it would be the Blue Table Painting miniature painting service. What about Doritos orange bases or Hot Dog grease washes and varnishes?
Sir, you confuse me! I fail to understand if you are being constantly and very cleverly sarcastic or a mind blank BTP advert, I demand answers!
Sir, you confuse me! I fail to understand if you are being constantly and very cleverly sarcastic or a mind blank BTP advert, I demand answers!
Sir, you are confusing. The name is Blue Table Painting, and they are a miniature painting service based in Spanish Fork, Utah. The anagram BTP has other meanings, which are equally ingenious and also things that come to mind when you say BTP.
You want to use the full name Blue Table Painting because this thread is really the first place people are discovering the new and exciting visual style for miniature painting they are becoming known for. The OP created this thread to spread awareness of what Blue Table Painting is doing and my posts are meant to provide some context that gets lost in forums.
I named the style table bleue les fauves but obviously do want the artists themselves to tell us what the process should be called and share their secrets about how to achieve such stunning visual aesthetics.
The reason this is important is that we are seeing a miniature painting service being successful taking people's money employing artistic techniques that represent a radical departure from the ones that have been in place for the last 30 years. It's the style seen in that old, failed publication White Dwarf, where painters would do the same thing over and over again, using undercoats, basecoats that cover the model, shading / glazing techniques, drybrushing, highlights, extreme highlights, accents / details, etc. These painters would engage in these so-called advanced techniques with names like 'freehand,' 'object source lighting,' 'non-metallic metals,' 'weathering,' 'layering,' 'stippling,' 'color harmony,' 'patterns,' 'details,' and more. The list of tricks they used to keep people hooked never seemed to end, and it was always curious how most of them seemed to be beyond the average painter's ability to carry out on their own models.
An art form, even if it's a hobby for most people, should advance some in 3 decades, otherwise it stagnates and simply becomes a pasttime for old timers. Blue Table Painting has moved the ball forward dramatically with table bleue les fauves. By shunning these dated, labor-intensive, unattainable techniques in favor of their own process, Blue Table Painting is using their small miniature painting service to reinvent the way we think about what a model should look like. Instead of trying to achieve some kind of gritty realism, this style challenges people's perceptions and the meaning of words / phrases like 'good,' 'attractive,' 'finished,' 'tabletop standard,' and 'suitable for public viewing.' This work should not be ignored, and people should be sharing information about what the incredible results being achieved by this process-driven approach to 'painting your world' (as my good friend Shawn likes to say.) I can see how inexperienced players could be told this new style is good and come to accept it as the standard for their own understanding of quality work.
While I realize it's ironic to be discovering all of this in a thread complaining about the process, it's important to understand that anything new and revolutionary will be met with apprehension and disdain before it becomes the dominant art form. Blue Table Painting did not become the world's most popular and widely recognized miniature painting service by thinking inside the box, it took the advancement of new techniques (like overspraying, which is a genius technique I use for my own models), savvy partnerships in the community (like with miniwargaming, where they give Matt and Dave free models to say nice things about them), and a massive investment in search engine optimization to get there. The people at Blue Table Painting can only do so much commenting on their own videos, and now we need to support their team in revolutionizing the medium.
Please consider giving to Blue Table Painting's Patreon campaign:
Every donation supports the commercial miniature painting service and the artists they employ to create new videos, take pictures, travel to tournaments and conventions, and branch out to new media (hello Black Giant!). The gifts you get from your pledge are awesome and you should read about them.
If you can't give right now, there are still ways to get involved. Help Blue Table Painting advance table bleue les fauves as the dominant style for miniature painting by doing the following.
Refer to the company as 'Blue Table Painting' - not 'BTP' - in your posts.
Refer to the company as a 'miniature painting service' at least once anywhere you post about the company.
Refer to table bleue les fauves on other websites. This term will be synonymous with Blue Table Painting in a few months and link to a massive collection of the best examples of their work.
Comment on videos on the Blue Table Painting YouTube channel. Share your thoughts on what you see, and realize that the attitudes expressed in comments affect what videos will be recommended to other users.
Link back to this thread or the warseer thread from anywhere else on the Internet.
Include tenebre's videos in other forums. The placement of the videos has a reciprocal impact on threads linking to them.
Favorite tenebre's original videos on YouTube. Favoriting the videos will reduce the placement decay that occurs as new videos are posted.
Here are some resources to share about Blue Table Painting and the table bleue les fauves style of miniature painting in their services.
The Manifesto: The closest I could come to spelling out the characteristics of this new process.
M0ff3l's Blue Table Painting CSM Thread: M0ff3l spells out the details of the process throughout this thread. This post has examples of outcomes of the process for everyone to enjoy.
Well, I don't think we're going to get anything significant until we find new information on the matter, and I'm also guessing we're only gonna get more info once the lawsuit gets its ball rolling.
While the posts are funny, I worry it takes away from the message.
I received a PM from someone accidentally sent to me (they thought i was the the "white knight" thanking me for showing how good BTP is and basically stating that everyone attacking BTP is a competing painting service.
so while i get the idea here it is best to keep in serious and on track so as to convey the real message and not confuse anyone reading the thread.
It has drifted far off topic, and has stayed too far into farce.
I'm strongly suggesting that everyone get back on topic, and avoid posting for the LULZ.
LULZ are one thing, gently encouraging collective action through humor designed to keep attention on the matter is another.
As tenebre stated in his original post and throughout this thread, the purpose is to raise awareness of the hazards of dealing with Blue Table Painting. Given the costs involved, this is a serious matter that should concern anyone thinking of dealing with that miniature painting service. This is a community and we should care about the other people in it enough to help them be wary of bad situations, or at least give them enough information to make informed decisions.
If my posts somehow violate the original purpose of the thread or stray off topic, I apologize and will simply wait for tenebre to post something about the gradual outcome of his legal case. I can sit here and read all about M0ff3l and his wonderful observations over the outstanding customer service he receives and how BTP gives him exactly what he wants.
But, with all due respect to Alpharius, what is a farce is the fact this dispute remains unresolved and other people are using the forums to whitewash the whole affair. Telling people to limit their speech to simple grousing about the matter doesn't solve anything and turns Dakka into a platform for obscuring the OPs original points.
One recurring theme I have noticed with BTP and their videos, is that when they seem to notice something "off" about a model they painted, they always blame the customer in the video, saying it was a client request. Seems like this is in every video.
tenebre wrote: While the posts are funny, I worry it takes away from the message.
I received a PM from someone accidentally sent to me (they thought i was the the "white knight" thanking me for showing how good BTP is and basically stating that everyone attacking BTP is a competing painting service.
so while i get the idea here it is best to keep in serious and on track so as to convey the real message and not confuse anyone reading the thread.
I am totally a competing painting service, it might take me a year to get your army done but I'll get it done
tenebre wrote: While the posts are funny, I worry it takes away from the message.
I received a PM from someone accidentally sent to me (they thought i was the the "white knight" thanking me for showing how good BTP is and basically stating that everyone attacking BTP is a competing painting service.
so while i get the idea here it is best to keep in serious and on track so as to convey the real message and not confuse anyone reading the thread.
I am totally a competing painting service, it might take me a year to get your army done but I'll get it done
carlos13th wrote: Sorry are you talking about the Blue Table Painting Miniature Service? Or the Miniature Service offered by Blue Table Painting. I cant be sure.
Definitely Blue Table Painting, a Miniatures painting service, offering miniature painting service under the DBA (doing business as) name of Blue Table Painting. From Spanish Fork, Utah.
EDIT: okay, posted that before i saw Alpharius last couple comments.
We are purposefully putting as many hits into Blue Table Painting, and a miniature painting service, and spanish fork utah, so that searches will lead everywhere back here.
I don't think that's all that far off topic.... but if the mods think so, can we start an awareness thread pointing back here ?
Karnophage wrote: Well Blue table painting thought it would be to put a Lotus pod on top of a plastic nid and paint it. Interesting conversion don't you think?
Karnophage wrote: Well Blue table painting thought it would be to put a Lotus pod on top of a plastic nid and paint it. Interesting conversion don't you think?
don't forget super blury pics.
The blur adds to it... I think they were trying to show motion, nids are VERY fast afterwards
tenebre wrote: While the posts are funny, I worry it takes away from the message.
I received a PM from someone accidentally sent to me (they thought i was the the "white knight" thanking me for showing how good BTP is and basically stating that everyone attacking BTP is a competing painting service.
so while i get the idea here it is best to keep in serious and on track so as to convey the real message and not confuse anyone reading the thread.
yea, sorry about that mis-send.
I wasn't saying BTP are good, I said the other guy paid for a basic level and received it.
I didn't say everyone attacking BTP were a competing service, I merely pointed out some of the people saying the CSMs should have been done to a higher standard were commission painters who had lost sight of the fact the CSMs were only paid to be done to a pretty basic standard. They were attacking things like BTP's greenstuff work when there was no GS work to attack. For the sake of honesty they should be honest in their criticisms or it undermines everything you're trying to achieve with BTP.
Again, sorry to hear about your chaos dwarfs experience, but for someone who makes a big deal of honesty I'm not impressed that you've publically misrepresented a message you accidently received. I appreciate they've wasted your time and your money. Doesn't seem to have happened to the other guy, even if you feel he shouldn't be supporting a 'fraud' company.
tenebre wrote: While the posts are funny, I worry it takes away from the message.
I received a PM from someone accidentally sent to me (they thought i was the the "white knight" thanking me for showing how good BTP is and basically stating that everyone attacking BTP is a competing painting service.
so while i get the idea here it is best to keep in serious and on track so as to convey the real message and not confuse anyone reading the thread.
yea, sorry about that mis-send.
I wasn't saying BTP are good, I said the other guy paid for a basic level and received it.
I didn't say everyone attacking BTP were a competing service, I merely pointed out some of the people saying the CSMs should have been done to a higher standard were commission painters who had lost sight of the fact the CSMs were only paid to be done to a pretty basic standard. They were attacking things like BTP's greenstuff work when there was no GS work to attack. For the sake of honesty they should be honest in their criticisms or it undermines everything you're trying to achieve with BTP.
Again, sorry to hear about your chaos dwarfs experience, but for someone who makes a big deal of honesty I'm not impressed that you've publically misrepresented a message you accidently received. I appreciate they've wasted your time and your money. Doesn't seem to have happened to the other guy, even if you feel he shouldn't be supporting a 'fraud' company.
that is NOT the message i construed from your email. I gave the example of what i worried was happening. My message was to get this back on track to avoid the OTT sarcasm.
now you come in here and try to call me a liar when not only did i NEVER state it as fact but stated my opinion of what I "worried" was happening but insist on trying to publicly discredit my statements.
Fair enough. Maybe you misconstrued my message and weren't purposefully misrepresenting it.
However, you'll note I never called you a liar, I don't appreciate you erroneously summarising a message was not intended to be seen by you, especially not in public. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I just think it is fair for me to clarify what I accidently sent you if you are going to mention it publically.
I absolutely did not say everyone attacking BTP were rival companies, nor did I say every criticism against BTP was baseless. i.e. I did not say they are good.
I apologised for the mistake in sending the message to you instead of the intended recipient, I expressed my sympathies for your bad experience with BTP.
I'm sympathetic to your cause after seeing your evidence, I agree the thread should get back on topic, but making public private correspondence is not the way to do it.
nareik wrote: Fair enough. Maybe you misconstrued my message and weren't purposefully misrepresenting it.
However, you'll note I never called you a liar, I don't appreciate you erroneously summarising a message was not intended to be seen by you, especially not in public. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I just think it is fair for me to clarify what I accidently sent you if you are going to mention it publically.
I absolutely did not say everyone attacking BTP were rival companies, nor did I say every criticism against BTP was baseless.
I apologised for the mistake in sending the message to you instead of the intended recipient, I expressed my sympathies for your bad experience with BTP.
I'm sympathetic to your cause after seeing your evidence, I agree the thread should get back on topic, but making public private correspondence is not the way to do it.
you are not paying attention. I specifically NEVER said who sent it at all. I only used an example to explain WHY the thread should stay focused on the topic. You are the one who made it "public". I didnt even copy the text, just summarized an example and extrapolated a possible scenario to support the reasons for keeping the thread on topic. Please read what i am writing before getting defensive. The original post was not about anyone but referenced an erroneous message sent by an unnamed person. You have taken it upon yourself to try and defend something that you were not called out upon.
Again .... I stand by my words.... taking this too far off topic I still worry will make people think EXACTLY what i said re: rival companies etc. Please stop creating straw man arguments. I know this is the internet and you need to be right but you are taking this too far. Again remember I NEVER made your comments public at all.
i am not a professional painting studio and sadly do not have a setup to support pictures.
I just got 2 more models yesterday with more on the way. I am going to have them take pro pics before sending from now on. My setup just doesnt do justice.
tenebre wrote: i am not a professional painting studio and sadly do not have a setup to support pictures.
I just got 2 more models yesterday with more on the way. I am going to have them take pro pics before sending from now on. My setup just doesnt do justice.
Fair enough, never thought you were one .
That said, we've now seen it seems professional painting studios don't require studio set ups
you really don't need a 'pro' set up to get half decent pics. If you have a few sheets of white paper, a half decent camera or smartphone, and either good daylight or a 'daylight' bulb in a lamp, you can get some decent images. If you want me to, I'm happy to pm you a walk-through.
you really don't need a 'pro' set up to get half decent pics. If you have a few sheets of white paper, a half decent camera or smartphone, and either good daylight or a 'daylight' bulb in a lamp, you can get some decent images. If you want me to, I'm happy to pm you a walk-through.
you really don't need a 'pro' set up to get half decent pics. If you have a few sheets of white paper, a half decent camera or smartphone, and either good daylight or a 'daylight' bulb in a lamp, you can get some decent images. If you want me to, I'm happy to pm you a walk-through.
Can't wait to see what you post Tenebre!
I've been doing everything possible to get your story on the web, I've even linked this thread in my signature.
I'm really pulling for you man.
Also, as a side note, make more gaming mayhem stuff on youtube!
I love your channel.
Good luck
I hope everything ends up working out well with the BTP issue, and I'm glad that Frontline has done you a good service, and done everything you've asked.
It's not only good publicity, but the right thing to do.. the thing that BTP should have done the first time.
Again I say good luck
and I'm glad to see you posting
Alpharius, thanks for stepping in, I was really worried this thread would get closed.
tenebre wrote: i am not a professional painting studio and sadly do not have a setup to support pictures.
I just got 2 more models yesterday with more on the way. I am going to have them take pro pics before sending from now on. My setup just doesnt do justice.
realy looking foreword to seeing more of the repaints! This is what I've been continueing reading this thread looking foreword to!
I've been following this thread from the beginning and I had NO idea you were from STL! I know there are precious few WHFB players in STL and it would be great to play against some Chaos Dwarves at some point (and see the army once it's finished)! If you're ever looking for a game PM me and we can get a game together.
I've been following this thread from the beginning and I had NO idea you were from STL! I know there are precious few WHFB players in STL and it would be great to play against some Chaos Dwarves at some point (and see the army once it's finished)! If you're ever looking for a game PM me and we can get a game together.
I too have been burned by BTP. They painted 40 Witch Elves and a Hydra at lv 3 at the cost of well over 1.5 grand US if one includes import fees and the result was a disaster. a quarter of the models were flat out broken on delivery, pointing to poor packaging, all the legs and the non flesh tone (gloved) arms were just flat black primer, no highlights at all, the gold was one gold colour, again no depth or highlights, the hair was not what I asked for, and the flesh appears to be drybrushed rakarth flesh over brown, giving it an inconsistent, grainy and flat out ugly appearance. Parts of models like the breast, shoulder or an entire hand were left unpainted, meaning left with the dark brown basecoat showing. They also didnt bother to send the command group, or the parts for it despite discussions on how the regiment was to rank up. I asked for the command group and Shawn said he could send it, I specified how I wanted it sent (just primered white). They haven't replied, a week and counting.
They said it could all be "fixed" if I send it back. But I refuse, they simply don't have the will or the ability as far as I'm concerned and I would be better off fixing it myself. I have finished 10 so far.
I will post a full written review with pictures, after the christmas holidays.
It was MWG's glowing endorsement that led me to BTP to begin with. Their marginalization of people like me in response to this fiasco is a disgrace.
I didn't even expect that much, just consistent, colours PAINTED ON and neatly and evenly applied. That's all. What you'd expect from a professional.
But no, they drybrush everything, no matter how inappropriate.
Their posting of pictures for approval is pretty much useless, because who's going to trust them to add more paint to models that are already on the very edge of being ruined? They'd just overpaint it and make it worse.
TBM wrote: I too have been burned by BTP. They painted 40 Witch Elves and a Hydra at lv 3 at the cost of well over 1.5 grand US if one includes import fees and the result was a disaster. a quarter of the models were flat out broken on delivery, pointing to poor packaging, all the legs and the non flesh tone (gloved) arms were just flat black primer, no highlights at all, the gold was one gold colour, again no depth or highlights, the hair was not what I asked for, and the flesh appears to be drybrushed rakarth flesh over brown, giving it an inconsistent, grainy and flat out ugly appearance. Parts of models like the breast, shoulder or an entire hand were left unpainted, meaning left with the dark brown basecoat showing. They also didnt bother to send the command group, or the parts for it despite discussions on how the regiment was to rank up. I asked for the command group and Shawn said he could send it, I specified how I wanted it sent (just primered white). They haven't replied, a week and counting.
They said it could all be "fixed" if I send it back. But I refuse, they simply don't have the will or the ability as far as I'm concerned and I would be better off fixing it myself. I have finished 10 so far.
I will post a full written review with pictures, after the christmas holidays.
I would too like to see a thread about this. But just curious with mwg pulling the video and all the negative backlash on it why did you choose blue table painting? Or was it already sent before the video?
Please note the abuse of studio light. If the point of these pictures is for the client to pick up problems why have a bright light shining on the mini, obscuring the quality (or lack thereof).
4 months wait and at that price for THAT.
These are the 10 I fixed to a standard I'm happy with. And with the hair that I asked for.
I only have my low quality computer webcam at the moment.
I bet they consider that "level 6". That's just cos they clearly have low standards. Very low standard compared to other commission painters.Note that in BTP's pics the black on the legs kind of looks highlighted, but they ain't. I can tell you that now. It's just a trick of the light.
TBM wrote: I too have been burned by BTP. They painted 40 Witch Elves and a Hydra at lv 3 at the cost of well over 1.5 grand US if one includes import fees and the result was a disaster.
First, I'm really sorry to hear that you spent so much money, and got such shoddy results.
IMO, you would do better to create a new thread and video the thing for Youtube, like ten did. It'd be nice to keep the CD vs DE issues separate. Please take good pictures.
Also, if BTP clearly failed to deliver what they said, I'd go back to your credit card company and push for a chargeback. You should photograph everything, and prepare a detailed accounting of everything that BTP failed to do, along with damages from their failure to pack properly per USPS / UPS / whatever standards.
Whatever you do, do not send the models back - BTP's failure to perform, and failure to properly package shows that they cannot be trusted to complete the work or deliver it properly.
TBM wrote: I too have been burned by BTP. They painted 40 Witch Elves and a Hydra at lv 3 at the cost of well over 1.5 grand US if one includes import fees and the result was a disaster. a quarter of the models were flat out broken on delivery, pointing to poor packaging, all the legs and the non flesh tone (gloved) arms were just flat black primer, no highlights at all, the gold was one gold colour, again no depth or highlights, the hair was not what I asked for, and the flesh appears to be drybrushed rakarth flesh over brown, giving it an inconsistent, grainy and flat out ugly appearance. Parts of models like the breast, shoulder or an entire hand were left unpainted, meaning left with the dark brown basecoat showing. They also didnt bother to send the command group, or the parts for it despite discussions on how the regiment was to rank up. I asked for the command group and Shawn said he could send it, I specified how I wanted it sent (just primered white). They haven't replied, a week and counting.
They said it could all be "fixed" if I send it back. But I refuse, they simply don't have the will or the ability as far as I'm concerned and I would be better off fixing it myself. I have finished 10 so far.
I will post a full written review with pictures, after the christmas holidays.
TBM wrote: I too have been burned by BTP. They painted 40 Witch Elves and a Hydra at lv 3 at the cost of well over 1.5 grand US if one includes import fees and the result was a disaster. a quarter of the models were flat out broken on delivery, pointing to poor packaging, all the legs and the non flesh tone (gloved) arms were just flat black primer, no highlights at all, the gold was one gold colour, again no depth or highlights, the hair was not what I asked for, and the flesh appears to be drybrushed rakarth flesh over brown, giving it an inconsistent, grainy and flat out ugly appearance. Parts of models like the breast, shoulder or an entire hand were left unpainted, meaning left with the dark brown basecoat showing. They also didnt bother to send the command group, or the parts for it despite discussions on how the regiment was to rank up. I asked for the command group and Shawn said he could send it, I specified how I wanted it sent (just primered white). They haven't replied, a week and counting.
They said it could all be "fixed" if I send it back. But I refuse, they simply don't have the will or the ability as far as I'm concerned and I would be better off fixing it myself. I have finished 10 so far.
I will post a full written review with pictures, after the christmas holidays.
Like others said, I hope you start your own topic and have any before pics to show. Just so many people have been burned by this company.
I posted the before pics, aka BTP's own pictures, a few posts ago.
Shawn said he would refund the last payment which is half the total commission, but he hasn't done it yet and the dispute will remain open until he complies.
TBM wrote: I posted the before pics, aka BTP's own pictures, a few posts ago.
Shawn said he would refund the last payment which is half the total commission, but he hasn't done it yet and the dispute will remain open until he complies.
Blue Table painting actually charged you for those. I have seen better painted Witch Elves on Ebay for about half the price.
TBM wrote: I posted the before pics, aka BTP's own pictures, a few posts ago.
Shawn said he would refund the last payment which is half the total commission, but he hasn't done it yet and the dispute will remain open until he complies.
The paint is uneven and inconsistent. Too thick in some areas and non existent in others. Make no mistake these models are almost ruined. They're at the edge of a clliff to put it mildly.
Erm..wow I know this is an over used meme but thin your paints. I mean in the chaos space marines blue table painting thread, he used the same levels and it still wasn't good. Goes to show you that if your commission isn't the focus of a very popular thread, you won't even get that level.
Looking at the BTP levels video it looks like they describe level 3 as basic tabletop standard. While your models are still well below what I would call tabletop standard, I'm a little unsure as to how 40 models plus a monster came to $1500?
Daedleh wrote: Looking at the BTP levels video it looks like they describe level 3 as basic tabletop standard. While your models are still well below what I would call tabletop standard, I'm a little unsure as to how 40 models plus a monster came to $1500?
Because Blue Table Painting charges exorbitant fees, plus he had international shipping on top of that.
Daedleh wrote: Looking at the BTP levels video it looks like they describe level 3 as basic tabletop standard. While your models are still well below what I would call tabletop standard, I'm a little unsure as to how 40 models plus a monster came to $1500?
If he had blue table painting buy the models that is easily 300 dollars plus tax. Then 40 models and one large monster and then shipping to the UK, I can see it being 1500.
primalexile wrote: I hope someone shuts BTP down, and soon. What they are doing is criminal.
If not for the sake of the people who's money they're taking at least for those poor models they get their hands on. That's cruel and unusual punishment right there.
TBM wrote: The paint is uneven and inconsistent. Too thick in some areas and non existent in others. Make no mistake these models are almost ruined. They're at the edge of a clliff to put it mildly.
The amount of money you paid for those models along with the sloppiness of the paint job is such a rip off! This isn't tabletop by any standards this is just paint slapped on a model!
I paint models for money and I would be ashamed to present a client with such results. That thick to thin to thick inconsistent drybrushing ruins any attempt to call them descent.
My sympathies to you mate and hope you get an amount of your money back.
According to Shawn him self level 0 is primed with something really terrible done to it... Well I guess we found out at what level BTP usually paints! Its zero with added goodies!
The army in that video is a level 3, level 5. To be honest I don't believe their studio produced that army it must have come from a trade of some sort but anyway. I believe that tenebre would be really happy with any army looking something like that on a lower level than the one he paid for.
This company doesn't do such a great work when you start picking at them. A lot of people are really displeased with what they got for their money, it's just tenebre that made a really well organized approach to it through his video review.
Those Elves are terrible for that price. The paint job looks around $10 per model but it sounds like they cost more like $30 per model. At $30 a model I expect a lot better than that.
BTP's photography has been poor since day 1, I've always thought it was simply to hide inconsistencies and flaws in their models. They do blurry pics and videos, neither of which can show off the quality of a model.
BTP have always struck me as a company who targets people who...
a) Just want an army painted reasonably cheap at lower levels and don't really care about mediocre quality because they don't have the time to paint the army themselves. (and that's a valid target audience IMO).
b) People who don't know better, because anyone who knows better would see the pictures don't actually show the quality (good or bad but mostly likely bad) of the work.
One of the most reprehensible things they seem to do is treat large higher level armies as cash grabs and actually spend LESS time per model than if they'd gotten a small squad at the same level. This is totally wrong. If someone pays $30 per model, then you should be spending ~3 hours per model regardless of whether the client has ordered 5 models or 500 models. If anything you might spend MORE time on the person who is paying you for 500 models because they are a bigger client and so you should be going the extra mile to show your appreciation for them trusting you with such a large commission.
Been watching this thread for a while and I feel awful for the people that have been ripped off by Blue Table Painting.
Those pictures are terrible, not something you want to be getting back from a company that you've paid lots of money to.
Sorry about posting pictures in this thread, but here's a picture I received back from a miniature painting company. You can see what you're getting much more clearly, it's not blurry, and the lighting is great. In my opinion if you're starting up a commission service, the first thing you should do is learn how to take pictures.
Please note the abuse of studio light. If the point of these pictures is for the client to pick up problems why have a bright light shining on the mini, obscuring the quality (or lack thereof).
4 months wait and at that price for THAT.
These are the 10 I fixed to a standard I'm happy with. And with the hair that I asked for.
OMG, I literally started laughing the kind of laugh that you laugh when you see someone get nailed in the balls with a lacrosse ball, or something like that, when i checked out the pics on the flickr page. The fuzzy webcam ones didn't look bad through the fuzz, but once i saw the crisper ones posted on flickr.... yikes. Terrible. I should get a job painting with them. I'm not much of a painter, but i could bang out their "level 3" in no time. It takes hard work to take the singularly sexy and visceral witch elf plastic models, and make it look like a meth head grandma that hasn't had a hit in a few days.
I would be unbelievably angry if i paid someone 1500 bucks and that's what i got.
I am sorry that you got such terrible quality out of them.
TBM wrote: The paint is uneven and inconsistent. Too thick in some areas and non existent in others. Make no mistake these models are almost ruined. They're at the edge of a clliff to put it mildly.
The amount of money you paid for those models along with the sloppiness of the paint job is such a rip off! This isn't tabletop by any standards this is just paint slapped on a model!
I paint models for money and I would be ashamed to present a client with such results. That thick to thin to thick inconsistent drybrushing ruins any attempt to call them descent.
My sympathies to you mate and hope you get an amount of your money back.
According to Shawn him self level 0 is primed with something really terrible done to it... Well I guess we found out at what level BTP usually paints! Its zero with added goodies!
The army in that video is a level 3, level 5. To be honest I don't believe their studio produced that army it must have come from a trade of some sort but anyway. I believe that tenebre would be really happy with any army looking something like that on a lower level than the one he paid for.
This company doesn't do such a great work when you start picking at them. A lot of people are really displeased with what they got for their money, it's just tenebre that made a really well organized approach to it through his video review.
He comes off very smug to me in that video, i don't find it hard to believe at all that this is the same guy that asked for over 10k a year to end up with a shirt and hat so they can "advance their craft". Oh and a weekend in Spanish Fork UT.
"You definitely get what you pay for." - 3:11 in the video.
That's a matter very much up for debate. Doesn't seem to be too many people on these forums that agree. In fact all i see is that there seems to be NO level of consistency in your "paint levels", or even within models selected within a single strata of paint level.
"These tanks are level 3's. If they were level 4's and i was the art director checking these out, i'd probably pick on..." -- 4:40 in the video.
You know what, then you should be the art director. The tanks aren't terrible for level 3's, but if you're going to go into how what you would do if you were art director, assuming you have more than one art director working for you, you need to goddamn retrain them to have higher standards. Because there's no way the models in this thread, or the one's that TBM is illustrating passed any kind of art direction past "get it out the door, and onto the next project". Your entire paint level scheme strata is inconsistent, and your "level of attention" to quality is hypocritical at best, and potentially fraudulent at worst.
I hope the gaming community gets wise to these guys and they have to close up shop.
ALSO: Public Service Announcement. Please don't use the acronym BTP. Use Blue Table Painting fully spelled out. The more times that string of words appears, the more likely it is that someone doing research on Blue Table Painting will see threads like this.
It takes hard work to take the singularly sexy and visceral witch elf plastic models, and make it look like a meth head grandma that hasn't had a hit in a few days.
And it takes even harder work to bring them back. They look like mutated zombies. And not in a good way.
Where are all the Blue Table Painting fanboys NOW? Let's see them defend THAT.
It takes hard work to take the singularly sexy and visceral witch elf plastic models, and make it look like a meth head grandma that hasn't had a hit in a few days.
And it takes even harder work to bring them back. They look like mutated zombies. And not in a good way.
Where are all the Blue Table Painting fanboys NOW? Let's see them defend THAT.
Was watching another blue table painting video, I know someone has to trudge through the muck, and came across this. At the 4:15 mark Shaun is talking to his painters, then the camera is turned off. Then back on to talk about a special project as soon as he pics it up the painter, who was in the middle of an ARAM on league while he was alive mind you, jumps up to start talking about how he was talking to the customer on the phone about the scheme.
Ustrello wrote: Was watching another blue table painting video, I know someone has to trudge through the muck, and came across this. At the 4:15 mark Shaun is talking to his painters, then the camera is turned off. Then back on to talk about a special project as soon as he pics it up the painter, who was in the middle of an ARAM on league while he was alive mind you, jumps up to start talking about how he was talking to the customer on the phone about the scheme.
Does anyone have any real experience that can tell me what they charge for a level 4-5 wave serpent? No I have no intentions of using them, I just want to satisfy a comparison I was just thinking about.
quickfuze wrote: Does anyone have any real experience that can tell me what they charge for a level 4-5 wave serpent? No I have no intentions of using them, I just want to satisfy a comparison I was just thinking about.
You can also email them and ask them, though if they are watching they may quote lower or what not.
Ustrello wrote: the painter, who was in the middle of an ARAM on league while he was alive mind you, jumps up to start talking about how he was talking to the customer on the phone about the scheme.
Ustrello wrote: the painter, who was in the middle of an ARAM on league while he was alive mind you, jumps up to start talking about how he was talking to the customer on the phone about the scheme.
Capamaru wrote: At least Blue Table Painting is getting an award for worst business practice.
If more people keep reviewing the paint jobs they received from Blue Table Painting then most probably till next year they will go out of business.
In which case people should be very cautious, because companies of dubious quality that operate abroad and don't like giving refunds are exactly the sort to fold up and disappear with people's money and models.
In which case people should be very cautious, because companies of dubious quality that operate abroad and don't like giving refunds are exactly the sort to fold up and disappear with people's money and models.
Hasn't Blue Table Painting, the miniature painting service, already had several incarnations due to previous versions accruing debt and then going out of business/bankruptcy/changing shape/moving state?
I'd like to stress that this may settle the monetary dispute, but it doesnt make it OK to produce work like that.
"Level 1-6"" is self satirizing at this point, it's become a joke in the wargaming community. Blue table painting need to recognize their limitations, and completely scrap levels 4-6. Stay within and advertise what you know you can do. Low level table top standard. Medium at best. And dont paint the eldar anymore.
Look at that studio update. People sitting around playing video games, sign language going on between people who have nothing to do with the delivery process, getting the boys together for a game of D&D. It's a cult of idleness. This is what they do with your money instead of working on their skills - tenebre's job probably paid for the camera. There are literally more people goofing off then there are people working on client projects.
For a place that makes all these claims about their process and innovative business practices, where are the steps they take to ensure quality? The people who are painting are getting constant praise for sub-par work. Since we're getting so intimate, how about showing us a creative review meeting where someone speaks up and offers a single idea for how to do a job better? Since these videos get published every single day, why not focus on a single project coming together and invite comments (which might be valuable, since they don't seem to know how to critique their own work)?
You go back through those videos for months and find me anything that suggests there's some thought going into all this. It's not there.
I'd like to stress that this may settle the monetary dispute, but it doesnt make it OK to produce work like that.
"Level 1-6"" is self satirizing at this point, it's become a joke in the wargaming community. Blue table painting need to recognize their limitations, and completely scrap levels 4-6. Stay within and advertise what you know you can do. Low level table top standard. Medium at best. And dont paint the eldar anymore.
The problem is that Blue Table Painting, the miniature painting service can't really deliver at 1-3 either..
I'd like to stress that this may settle the monetary dispute, but it doesnt make it OK to produce work like that.
"Level 1-6"" is self satirizing at this point, it's become a joke in the wargaming community. Blue table painting need to recognize their limitations, and completely scrap levels 4-6. Stay within and advertise what you know you can do. Low level table top standard. Medium at best. And dont paint the eldar anymore.
The problem is that Blue Table Painting, the miniature painting service can't really deliver at 1-3 either..
This! Blue Table Painting is not really a miniature painting service. wile paint is applied to a miniature they work produced does not meet even the lowest of standards.
TBM wrote: "Level 1-6"" is self satirizing at this point, it's become a joke in the wargaming community. Blue table painting need to recognize their limitations, and completely scrap levels 4-6. Stay within and advertise what you know you can do. Low level table top standard. Medium at best. And dont paint the eldar anymore.
I do agree with this. If all they can do is knock out low quality jobs then that's all they should advertise instead of offering higher levels that are very inconsistent. At the end of the day, I think if you're paying someone $10 or less to paint a model, I don't really expect much which is why I tend to not attack BTP's low levels. I don't really expect them to paint much better than an average or slightly above average painter could do in an hour. When you start paying $20+ per model is where I start to care about the quality because then you're actually paying enough for them to actually be spending some time doing it right.
Can I ask though, TBM, the $1400 you mentioned earlier, how much of that was import taxes and did it include the models themselves?
I'd like to stress that this may settle the monetary dispute, but it doesnt make it OK to produce work like that.
"Level 1-6"" is self satirizing at this point, it's become a joke in the wargaming community. Blue table painting need to recognize their limitations, and completely scrap levels 4-6. Stay within and advertise what you know you can do. Low level table top standard. Medium at best. And dont paint the eldar anymore.
The problem is that Blue Table Painting, the miniature painting service can't really deliver at 1-3 either..
But boy can Blue Table Painting, the miniature painting service deliver on level zero ! They knock that one out of the park. As in zero quality, zero expectations fulfilled, zero ethics, zero customer service.
ALso, if this is accurate, how their conversion budget system works is legal is beyond me. It seems just this side of a ponzi scheme.
Center for Sustainability Blue Table Painting, A miniature painting service video where he describes how the "buy the minis, don't get the bits, conversion budget never gets returned, uses bits from previous customers having them buy the minis, to use on the minis you give them money to convert.... etc. etc. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlpRxOxJdK8
If that is accurate, I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would give them a budget for conversions. It must be a gigantic profit center for them.
I'd like to stress that this may settle the monetary dispute, but it doesnt make it OK to produce work like that.
"Level 1-6"" is self satirizing at this point, it's become a joke in the wargaming community. Blue table painting need to recognize their limitations, and completely scrap levels 4-6. Stay within and advertise what you know you can do. Low level table top standard. Medium at best. And dont paint the eldar anymore.
I'm glad you got something back from a fiduciary standpoint, and your minis.
The problem is, you still ended up out of pocket 700-ish dollars for a company to ruin your miniatures, require stripping, and per your earlier posts ship them back to you in a way that made them break.
I know you realize that, but just spelling out this is the sort of customer dispute rectification that others who choose to use Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service, can expect if they are not happy with what they get.
Put another way:
Would you give someone 1400 bucks, to have them hand you back craptacularly paintined, broken models, which you then have to nag and fight with them to get 700 bucks back. Ending up with models that still need repair, stripping, and painting.
I sure as hell wouldn't.
(Btw, my figures are probably off 100-200, due to taxes, importation brokerages, etc. etc. I'm almost positive you didn't get 700 back from Blue Table Painting, a miniature Painting service, so feel free to correct the figures if you like (and if you don't that's cool too) - i just want to acknowledge that i know that my figures are probably off here, but the relative point still stands).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5UNMvldCmA no offence too the girl in the video but you are doing it wrong pro tip BLUE TAPE don't pull paint masking tape will i would hope any pro miniature painting service would know that by now but maybe my standards are too high /shrug
flabluker - Come on now. Give them points for at least masking instead of trying to drybrush the design.
Blue tape costs so much more than masking tape.
Anyone else have an issue with the napkins being used on the mask? Doesn't the texture of the paper affect the surface tension of the paint, isn't this just a soft way of sanding?
techsoldaten wrote: flabluker - Come on now. Give them points for at least masking instead of trying to drybrush the design.
Blue tape costs so much more than masking tape.
Anyone else have an issue with the napkins being used on the mask? Doesn't the texture of the paper affect the surface tension of the paint, isn't this just a soft way of sanding?
yeah guess i am nit picking at this point just drives me nuts too see masking tape used blue tape costs more in cash but masking tape cost more in time 2 pts for masking and those napkins are top notch masking napkins right there
flabluker wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5UNMvldCmA no offence too the girl in the video but you are doing it wrong pro tip BLUE TAPE don't pull paint masking tape will i would hope any pro miniature painting service would know that by now but maybe my standards are too high /shrug
I use the white stuff, on a glossed surface it's never bothered me and on a surface I'm worried about, I'll just stick it to something else first and then pull it up to reduce the tack before putting it on the model itself. I've been using the white stuff when cutting complicated shapes because I can just stick it to my cutting board, cut the shape in to it, then when I pull it up to attach to the model the tack has sufficiently reduced but not so much that it doesn't stick at all.
There's a difference between what they can paint theoretically and what they can paint under time pressure and many commissions.
Some models are alot more forgiving than others, so maybe a basic necron, an orc, a clanrat. a dark tactical marine they could do.
"I'm almost positive you didn't get 700 back from Blue Table Painting, a miniature Painting service, so feel free to correct the figures"
The commission itself is about 1170 USD. so 590 about.
I know that's about 400 USD more than Blue table painting deserve for that job. And I'm not happy about that, but the initial payment was beyond paypal's 180 day coverage and can't be refunded. The other option would have been small claims court, but I just want to fix these models and move on instead of chasing 370 dollars as SC court expenses is about 130USD in the UK i believe..
I haven't needed to strip any yet besides a few faces and a few noses. They've required just careful, thin applications of paint and some pride which is what they should have had to begin with , actual painting! Hope to get clearer pictures soon. However a few just from lookin at them, clearly need stripping of the total model.
TBM wrote: There's a difference between what they can paint theoretically and what they can paint under time pressure and many commissions.
Some models are alot more forgiving than others, so maybe a basic necron, an orc, a clanrat. a dark tactical marine they could do.
I tend to think when a project comes in that's a higher level they often just speed paint it like everything else instead of actually putting in the time for which the customer paid. When someone pays as much as Tenebre did, it deserves 2 to 3 months of full time work (not playing video games or procrastinating throughout the day) but it looks like it was done in a week or two.
flabluker wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5UNMvldCmA no offence too the girl in the video but you are doing it wrong pro tip BLUE TAPE don't pull paint masking tape will i would hope any pro miniature painting service would know that by now but maybe my standards are too high /shrug
What's blue masking tape? I use Tamiya masking tape, and even that can lift paint or leave a ragged edge sometimes. Have to take care.
flabluker wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5UNMvldCmA no offence too the girl in the video but you are doing it wrong pro tip BLUE TAPE don't pull paint masking tape will i would hope any pro miniature painting service would know that by now but maybe my standards are too high /shrug
What's blue masking tape? I use Tamiya masking tape, and even that can lift paint or leave a ragged edge sometimes. Have to take care.
Blue masking tape is called "painters tape", though there's actually a whole heap of varieties of painters tape that comes in different colours from different manufacturers and different ratings often come in different colours. Blue is just one of the more common Scotch brand varieties of painters tape.
I actually haven't tried blue painters tape on my models, I've used it at work for plenty of other things, but at home I already have rolls of the white stuff and it works fine for me so I've just stuck with it.
Another video showing blue table painting quality control where the customer gets attention and making sure it moves forward. Oh and you get to see the grade A photo booth that this miniature painting service uses.
Ustrello wrote: Another video showing blue table painting quality control where the customer gets attention and making sure it moves forward. Oh and you get to see the grade A photo booth that this miniature painting service uses.
Why does this dude have to mention his D&D campaign in every freakin' video ? #no1cares
Also, while i understand how Alaitoc is pronounced, his accent pronouncing it makes me want to punch kittens with pit bulls tied to my fists.
Finally, if all his employees aren't dressed with the "Oh, the boss is here... try to look happy to see him!" smiles, then i've never seen a disingenuous smile in my entire life !
I get the impression that all these videos are all damage control.
Talking about the "project sheet" thats lets them know "out of thin air" where every single project is at to "keep them moving forwards" and in the previous one, "I was talking to the client on the phone".
It all sounds so forced and scripted, like its a deliberate attempt to disprove Tenebre's complaints. None of it seems genuine, they always seem so uncomfortable and awkward.
Talking about the "project sheet" thats lets them know "out of thin air" where every single project is at to "keep them moving forwards" and in the previous one, "I was talking to the client on the phone".
It all sounds so forced and scripted, like its a deliberate attempt to disprove Tenebre's complaints. None of it seems genuine, they always seem so uncomfortable and awkward.
But they are empty and soulless, and few of the people featured in the videos appear to be working. This is not the place you want to trust with your money.
Talking about the "project sheet" thats lets them know "out of thin air" where every single project is at to "keep them moving forwards" and in the previous one, "I was talking to the client on the phone".
It all sounds so forced and scripted, like its a deliberate attempt to disprove Tenebre's complaints. None of it seems genuine, they always seem so uncomfortable and awkward.
Here is the question, would they actually be able to use this or lets say M0f's thread in court?
Talking about the "project sheet" thats lets them know "out of thin air" where every single project is at to "keep them moving forwards" and in the previous one, "I was talking to the client on the phone".
It all sounds so forced and scripted, like its a deliberate attempt to disprove Tenebre's complaints. None of it seems genuine, they always seem so uncomfortable and awkward.
Here is the question, would they actually be able to use this or lets say M0f's thread in court?
Probably not, but I suspect that wouldn't stop them trying.
Ustrello wrote: Another video showing blue table painting quality control where the customer gets attention and making sure it moves forward. Oh and you get to see the grade A photo booth that this miniature painting service uses.
Wait, wait, they made a nice photobox so you can use the cloth on the sides/top to diffuse the light comming through it and they hang the lights inside the box? I'm lost for words....
Where in the video is the photo booth? I really don't want to watch the whole thing to find it It amazes me how people do watch their videos, I watch about 30 seconds and then wonder why I'm wasting my time watching their video
Surprisingly those Terminators dont look all that bad, although hard to tell from the crappy camera work, but it looks like some decent blending. I would hate to think what level they call that though.
Ustrello wrote: Another video showing blue table painting quality control where the customer gets attention and making sure it moves forward. Oh and you get to see the grade A photo booth that this miniature painting service uses.
Yeah, those terminators actually looked pretty good, I might actually be stealing some ideas, LOL.
Although, is it just me, or do I really feel like it's a chore to listen to this guy talk?
Ustrello wrote: Another video showing blue table painting quality control where the customer gets attention and making sure it moves forward. Oh and you get to see the grade A photo booth that this miniature painting service uses.
Yeah, those terminators actually looked pretty good, I might actually be stealing some ideas, LOL.
Although, is it just me, or do I really feel like it's a chore to listen to this guy talk?
It is in no way, shape, form, or fashion just you.
OH AND THIS IS FOR MY D&D CAMPAIGN, WHICH I"M REALLY EXCITED ABOUT.... I HAVEN'T MENTIONED THIS IN 34 SECONDS, SO IT WAS WELL OVERDUE FOR A PLUG! LETS GO SEE ANOTHER EMPLOYEE WHO WISHES TO GOD I WAS ANYONE ELSE WALKING TOWARDS THEM!
I don't know who they are, but those are big hints that the rate of change of employees in Blue Table Painting is pretty high, and usually if a company treats its employees well they tend to stay.
And the fact that he doesn't want to talk about it makes me feel that she didn't leave in good graces.
Allen Smith Is Shannon gone?
December 13 at 6:31am
Shawn Gately Yes.
December 13 at 6:58am
Allen Smith Nooooo!
December 13 at 9:21am
Shawn Gately I don't want to talk about it.
December 13 at 1:32pm
Spunky Staines nooooooooo!!! first sarah now shannon
December 15 at 8:57am
So...who are Sarah and Shannon, and is there an actual story here?
Not 100% certain on sarah, but Shannon was an employee of Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service.
I have never had dealings with the company or its personnel, but i've read nearly everything about them that i can find on the internet, and watched almost everything on youtube. By most accounts she was a super nice person and was approachable, honest, and was who several ex-employees thought should have been running the business. That is not my conjecture, this is based on comments by TWO ex painters that commented on blue table painting related you tube videos (one by the Center for Sustainability in reaction to Tenebre's videos, and i cannot quite recall the other one). Regardless, i've never read nor watched a single negative comment about Shannon. (yes i realize that two such comments and from ex employees is fairly biased, but taken from the lens that at this point its getting harder and harder to find ANYTHING positive in relation to BTP, and two independant people saying basically the same positive thing about the same person is about all the corroboration we're going to get I think).
I believe Sarah is also an ex-employee, but i'm less clear on that and could be mistaken.
Allen Smith Is Shannon gone?
December 13 at 6:31am
Shawn Gately Yes.
December 13 at 6:58am
Allen Smith Nooooo!
December 13 at 9:21am
Shawn Gately I don't want to talk about it.
December 13 at 1:32pm
Spunky Staines nooooooooo!!! first sarah now shannon
December 15 at 8:57am
So...who are Sarah and Shannon, and is there an actual story here?
Shannon was the most recent of Shawn's 'favorite girls', there's usually a lady in the staff who he gives more airtime to in his videos, presents alongside in 'morning shows' etc. They are, I think, promoted in some way to a more senior position. Sarah was her predecessor and was on camera for a long time, seemed like a nice lady, also disappeared one day without reference or mention ever again.
My personal favorite of these was Angela, the Warmachine player, from back in 07/08, but there have been several. Shawn understands that showing women is better for the videos, audience etc and does seem to favor them in talking/joking with etc, rarely giving the guys in his teams much airtime with the exception for many years of his sidekick and butt of his jokes, Renn.
I do recall a while back an anonymous poster here claiming to be an ex employee referring to these ladies as Shawn's 'wifelets' in his 'compound', which, I hope, is a lot less sinister than it sounds.
They do seem to suddenly vanish however, and there's no 'this is #'s last show, she's moving onto # and we wish her all the best in the world', instead they're just gone and there's no discussion about it or even reference to these people ever again. I imagine, according to the cultish mantra's of his business guru, that once someone leaves the Blue Table Miniature Painting Service, they are dead to Shawn and forbidden to speak to or interact with anyone still 'on the inside'.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I do recall a while back an anonymous poster here claiming to be an ex employee referring to these ladies as Shawn's 'wifelets' in his 'compound', which, I hope, is a lot less sinister than it sounds.
Anyone for koolaid?
Dang, how long before he also starts adopting a religious title?
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I do recall a while back an anonymous poster here claiming to be an ex employee referring to these ladies as Shawn's 'wifelets' in his 'compound'...
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I do recall a while back an anonymous poster here claiming to be an ex employee referring to these ladies as Shawn's 'wifelets' in his 'compound', which, I hope, is a lot less sinister than it sounds.
Anyone for koolaid?
Dang, how long before he also starts adopting a religious title?
Ok, less then stellar business practices aside, are these types of personal attacks really necessary?
I've corresponded with the guy several times, and he's never struck me as anything but a good person. A very good friend of mine has spent several of his Valhalla retreats with him as well, and agrees that he's a great person.
These types of attacks are just childish at this point.
heartserenade wrote: I don't know who they are, but those are big hints that the rate of change of employees in Blue Table Painting is pretty high, and usually if a company treats its employees well they tend to stay.
And the fact that he doesn't want to talk about it makes me feel that she didn't leave in good graces.
To be fair, it's pretty normal to not want to talk with the public about why someone left the company - there's no reason to badmouth someone you just fired, and there's no reason to publicize someone's personal choice (without permission).
But yes, I also feel that Blue Table Painting's turnover is pretty high, based on a few threads we've had on the site throughout the years.
It's pretty normal, but there are a lot of ways to answer the question without sounding like there's bad blood between you. Because showing bad blood is bad for your company's image, and saying you don't want to talk about it is the worst way of avoiding the question.
"Shannon has left Blue Table Painting and we wish her well on her new endeavour!" is one way of saying it.
With regards to Shawn, I personally do feel uncomfortable with the way he presents himself on video, even back when I didn't know the shenanigans of Blue Table Painting. Of course, I'm not saying he's certainly a bad person because I don't know him personally but there's something unsettling about him that creeps me out personally.
Allen Smith Is Shannon gone?
December 13 at 6:31am
Shawn Gately Yes.
December 13 at 6:58am
Allen Smith Nooooo!
December 13 at 9:21am
Shawn Gately I don't want to talk about it.
December 13 at 1:32pm
Spunky Staines nooooooooo!!! first sarah now shannon
December 15 at 8:57am
So...who are Sarah and Shannon, and is there an actual story here?
I do recall a while back an anonymous poster here claiming to be an ex employee referring to these ladies as Shawn's 'wifelets' in his 'compound', which, I hope, is a lot less sinister than it sounds.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I do recall a while back an anonymous poster here claiming to be an ex employee referring to these ladies as Shawn's 'wifelets' in his 'compound', which, I hope, is a lot less sinister than it sounds.
Anyone for koolaid?
Dang, how long before he also starts adopting a religious title?
Ok, less then stellar business practices aside, are these types of personal attacks really necessary?
I've corresponded with the guy several times, and he's never struck me as anything but a good person. A very good friend of mine has spent several of his Valhalla retreats with him as well, and agrees that he's a great person.
These types of attacks are just childish at this point.
Give him some money for a project. See how good he is after you get your models back. In fact, give him (by all estimates) nearly ten grand to do a huge project, and when you're unhappy with it, see what a "good person" he is when his attempt at ammends equates to a two percent refund.
I think "good person" is a matter of perspective here. Polite to you might have been the better term.
Also, the anecdote about your very good friend is unfortunately not worth that much. I"m sure it's true. I'm also certain i can write something similar right here. Neither of us can "prove it". However this thread and other threads are full of "proof" of bad customer service, unhappy customers, inconsistent products of service, and other not so "great" things.
Also, Ghandi was a great person. Winston Churchill was a great person. Franklin Roosevelt was a great person. Howard Zinn was a great person. This guy runs D&D campaigns and runs an overpriced painting service that charges obscene amounts for tabletop or sub-table top quality. Not sure i'd agree with "great". I mean, is he taking in hosts of starving African children refugees, or promoting tolerance and equality throughout the world ?
I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.
And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.
djones520 wrote: I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.
And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.
I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.
djones520 wrote: I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.
And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.
I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.
And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.
I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.
heartserenade wrote: It's pretty normal, but there are a lot of ways to answer the question without sounding like there's bad blood between you. Because showing bad blood is bad for your company's image, and saying you don't want to talk about it is the worst way of avoiding the question.
"Shannon has left Blue Table Painting and we wish her well on her new endeavour!" is one way of saying it.
Sure, there's better ways to say it, but based on his personality as it comes across in the videos, reading anything into the way he worded it is a bad idea. If she quit on good terms, he'd be grouchy and let that come across. If he fired her, he'd be grouchy and let that come across.
The only meaningful data would be that she left. Anything past that is an assumption with poor support.
With regards to Shawn, I personally do feel uncomfortable with the way he presents himself on video, even back when I didn't know the shenanigans of Blue Table Painting. Of course, I'm not saying he's certainly a bad person because I don't know him personally but there's something unsettling about him that creeps me out personally.
And given this information I'm not surprised that you're seeing his facebook statement in a negative light. :-) I'm not criticizing or even poking fun, I'm just trying to illustrate that you are reading more into his statement than you should.
djones520 wrote: I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.
And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.
I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.
And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.
I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.
Sounds like you have an axe to grind seeing how mad you got.
djones520 wrote: I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.
And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.
I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.
And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.
I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.
Sounds like you have an axe to grind seeing how mad you got.
djones520 wrote: I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.
And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.
I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.
And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.
I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.
Sounds like you have an axe to grind seeing how mad you got.
djones520 wrote: I have given him several grand over the years. A lot of what has been painted is in my gallery. I've had mixed results, but over all I've been satisfied with everything I've received.
And as I stated, his current business practices are one thing. But you have poster's here attacking his religion, which goes beyond that. They've entered the realms of personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion. Which goes into why I called them childish.
I'd really not call those worth it for a commission.
And I say they were. It was my money spent, so you're opinion means not a damn thing to me. Plus I've never received anything but praise for the outcome from people who've seen the models in person, so I'm going to say that weighs a lot more then random faceless forum guy with axe to grind for some reason.
I'm not here to defend Shawn's practice. I'm no longer a customer of BTP, will never hire them again, for my own reasons. Doesn't mean I'm going to get on here and act like a jerk about him either.
Sounds like you have an axe to grind seeing how mad you got.
Hardly.
I doubt it.
I'm inclined to believe Ustrello here, you're intentionally posting on the matter trying to "white knight" Blue Table Painting, a Miniature Painting Service.
No one likes admitting they wasted money on a sub-par job. So people do what they can to justify it.
From you guys' back and forth, you're the one who clearly looks like he's trying to white knight BTP and justify his spent money.
As for personal attacks, the guy opens himself up to that because he's constantly flaunting himself as the face of the company and he keeps mentioning personal activities every 30 seconds in his *business* videos...
(BTW, those books clearly read Pathfinder, so he plays Pathfinder, not DnD, there are differences in the systems)
djones520 wrote: I'm clearly trying to White Knight them? I've already said I will never hire them again. That's some seriously salesmanship I'm doing for them.
Whiteknighting in the attempt to justify money spent... There are differences in whiteknighting for the purposes of getting them more business and between justifying spending too much money on a sub par product.
djones520 wrote: I'm clearly trying to White Knight them? I've already said I will never hire them again. That's some seriously salesmanship I'm doing for them.
Whiteknighting in the attempt to justify money spent... There are differences in whiteknighting for the purposes of getting them more business and between justifying spending too much money on a sub par product.
I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't need to. Maybe you guys feel like strangers need to justify how they spend there money and where, but that is your own issue.
djones520 wrote: I'm clearly trying to White Knight them? I've already said I will never hire them again. That's some seriously salesmanship I'm doing for them.
Whiteknighting in the attempt to justify money spent... There are differences in whiteknighting for the purposes of getting them more business and between justifying spending too much money on a sub par product.
I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't need to. Maybe you guys feel like strangers need to justify how they spend there money and where, but that is your own issue.
Well, can you at least understand receiving an unfinished product that you paid top dollar for and feeling ripped off? And the guy won't even give you a reasonable refund?
Jeeze people lets stop attacking each other please. djones said he felt the personal attacks were bad and that he is happy with the models he's gotten, can we just take those comments at face value and move on with our lives and stick to on topic discussion instead of trying to assign ulterior motives like white knighting and subconscious personal vindication. It comes across petty and childish and devalues the conversation.
I have no idea... I can't stand BTP's videos so I haven't really watched many of them But googling "blue table painting shannon" came up with this video from a few years back...
And given this information I'm not surprised that you're seeing his facebook statement in a negative light. :-) I'm not criticizing or even poking fun, I'm just trying to illustrate that you are reading more into his statement than you should.
To be fair, I'd interpret as anything with "I don't want to talk about it" in a negative light. It's very passive-aggressive, and no one who says that line meant something ended well.
Just a quick question from me here, havent followed the thread that closely anymore. But wasnt it a 20% refund in store credit or something? When did this 2% refund happen? (not saying 20% is more reasonable either).
I have no idea... I can't stand BTP's videos so I haven't really watched many of them But googling "blue table painting shannon" came up with this video from a few years back...
Well I watched the video and all I can say is the guy is super creepy.. he would have that girl cut his hair in his office... Seriously? She was also responsible for packing from what I could understand from the video. So he lost his trusted hairdresser that's why the long face.
Blue Table Painting the Painting service doesn't suck only at painting minis but also at internal business management. Video after video you see new persons like the staff is constantly changing. How you can achieve consistent results at painting if you have new people day in day out. People are pushed to the limit like tenebre was saying to his video, where people was staying until late at night to complete his already overdue project.
Ok, less then stellar business practices aside, are these types of personal attacks really necessary?
I've corresponded with the guy several times, and he's never struck me as anything but a good person. A very good friend of mine has spent several of his Valhalla retreats with him as well, and agrees that he's a great person.
These types of attacks are just childish at this point.
Hey guys, the mods have been clear about personal attacks and staying on-topic in this thread, and they came down on me pretty hard for fairly innocuous behavior.
Personal attacks do not really have a place on Dakka. On the one hand, djones520 is right that some of this is pretty childish. On the other hand, it's pretty sexist too, and that really detracts from tenebre's message. There are thousands of other ways you can choose to express yourself, pick something less childish then calling females in Blue Table Painting videos 'wifettes.'
The internet has a way of fixating on pretty blondes to the exclusion of everyone and everything around them. If anyone wants to know what happened to Shannon, you can see her in the last Blue Table Painting video she appeared in. I commented on it a few months ago.
This was published right after several members of the community started sending letters to Blue Table Painting requesting a refund of tenebre's money. I don't know what the the body language and attitude was all about, or why Shawn chose to feature someone who was clearly not interested in being photographed at that time as a way of promoting his miniature painting service. The subtext I noted towards the end of the video, in retrospect, seems to be more poignant now - it was Shannon's swan song. The only people who did not know were the audience.
But more importantly - I am concerned about Chad. This was the last time we saw him in a Blue Table Painting video, and he's clearly being portrayed as the quality assurance guy (or at least the dude who makes sure there are instructions in the boxes). Shannon strikes me as a well organized, interesting person, but Chad seems to be very keyed into the specifics of Blue Table Painting's process. I really worry about Chad making the jump from whatever he did before to being the person responsible for keeping the train on the rails. There's no way that was an easy transition and the video left me with concerns that he might not be the guy who can make the hard choices when they matter.
This is pure speculation and should not be treated as fact - but I think the tenebre affair lead to someone taking the fall, and then something really bad happened to that person's replacement. Contrast that video with one of the more recent ones, like the one featured here:
... it's pretty clear not all is well at Blue Table Painting. Shawn's tone has changed dramatically, he is no longer the owner fretting about business processes and quality, he's the man seeking satisfaction in games of Dungeons and Dragons with a bunch of people who should not be considered his equals. While Shawn may very well be a good person at some level, the story these videos tell is of a troubled man shedding relationships with the ones who made him who he is. I hope the tenebre affair ends soon, for Shawn's sake.
M0ff3l wrote: Just a quick question from me here, havent followed the thread that closely anymore. But wasnt it a 20% refund in store credit or something? When did this 2% refund happen? (not saying 20% is more reasonable either).
I have read in several places it was 2%. That being said, i fully acknowledge i read it ; it could have been a typo that was later picked up and carried forward. If so, then that's my mistake and i'll admit it. Tenebre could probably shed light if he wanted to (and if not that's cool too).
Argh, messed up my quotes beyond all belief, but Techsoldat: Have an exalt !
My friend, if you get any drier, you will require a lint screen.
Capamaru wrote: Video after video you see new persons like the staff is constantly changing.
To be fair to BTP, even if the work environment was awesome I imagine a large miniature painting company would have a fast turn over of employees. It doesn't seem like the sort of work that really has advancement opportunities and is never going to pay terribly well. I imagine people who are passionate enough about painting to want to make a career out of painting (which would be very few) they would be better served doing it on their own or at most with a couple of like minded friends than in a larger company regardless of how good or bad that company is. Then for the majority of people, the commission painting is just a stop gap rather than a career, or something they'd rather do in their spare time rather than their primary full time job. I'm guessing the only real promotion (both money wise and position wise) would be if Shawn quit/died and someone else could take over.
So yeah, I expect there to be a high turn over of employees the same way there's a high turn over of employees at supermarket, it's not the sort of job most people want to turn in to a life long career, it's not well paid and it's not glamorous (as much as Shawn might try to make it look glamorous, lol).
The suspect thing is the way Shawn just says "I don't want to talk about it"... that heavily implies something bad happened to cause the split. A high turn over where people are simply moving on to bigger and better things is less of a concern than a high turn over where everyone is leaving with bad blood.
A high turnover at all levels isn't always that great or a sign. If I know anything about us employment is that it seems like the norm to try and get as much free labour out of your employees as possible. Having a project change hands as its being painted is one thing, but if along the way the painter or painters leaves the company, that's problematic for larger projects like whole armies. My thought would be that a lot of the part timers might get caught having to finish projects off the clock and if that happens often enough it can greatly contribute to turnover.
Yeah, a high turnover of artists would be bad when people are leaving mid project (like seems to be the case with Tenebre).
I was mostly just saying that I would think a high turnover would be expected when running a large commission painting service rather than a sign of a bad company in and of itself.
Though ideally you'd have enough rapport with your workers that you could arrange for them to leave after they've finished jobs they are currently working on and that you wouldn't have to make facebook posts saying "I don't want to talk about it" when someone vanishes.
Even if high turnover isn't necessarily a problem, a painter should never be leaving mid project if you could help it. You would want to at least let them finish before getting rid of them.
And if it was unavoidable, let the customer know that their artist is being changed and there may be a delay.
Grey Templar wrote: Even if high turnover isn't necessarily a problem, a painter should never be leaving mid project if you could help it. You would want to at least let them finish before getting rid of them.
And if it was unavoidable, let the customer know that their artist is being changed and there may be a delay.
Exalted for truth.
Once again, communication is the key to success. That's a major part of the problem here, bigger than smudges and basecoated sections
Shannon was the so called office manager and would be HR person. Sarah was that same at one time and they both briefly worked together at the same time I think. There was a major youtube response awhile ago that Spencer, the trade stock guy, said in reality She should be running the business. The post of "I dont want to talk about it" comes off as she stepped up and wanted change vs the way Shawn is running things. As I have stated before in this thread towards the beginning, The business practices of how employees are allow to work is laughable. When you have employees that play video games while on company time says one thing, as does hearing about artists working on other artists personal projects during updates. When employees feel its more important to do their own things vs someone that is paying for the commission, its time to write people up and get the point across that this is a business and not a google hangout or whatever and focus on what pays their bills.
In defense of BTP employees using their time at the studio to NOT work on client projects: they are commission paid. They do not make anything hourly and do not get paid while working on their own stuff. They are only paid when a project is completed.
This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck. For the majority of the people who work there, this is their sole source of income and so projects like that usually get picked up by multiple artists so they can be completed in less than 2 weeks, which means splitting the pay. It also means that the paint job WILL NOT be consistent because more than one person is painting. No matter how they train, most of the people there were hobbiests first so they have different skills and different levels of expertise.
Not defending how poorly it was done, because it was crap, just wanted to make sure folks around here have an understanding of some of the ways the artists work and deal with the job there.
On the Shannon thing, she was the HR person, the office manager, the packing specialist, and the person who did all the logistics for Valhalla; and Spencer was right, she SHOULD have been running the company. Allowing Shawn to run around and do his thing without impacting the running of the company.
Yeah, Shawn would be a great CEO as long as he let a competent manager run the business. It would let him do his goofy videos and generally have fun, which seems to be the only thing he is good at.
He would be a good face for the company, but he obviously has zero actual business sense. Just an ego way too large for his capabilities. You're only allowed to have an ego that swollen if you're actually a competent CEO.
Jathom wrote: This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck.
But Tenebre had to pay the majority of the project up front. If that money is only going to the artist AFTER the project is done then it's horrible mismanagement. When Tenebre pays his deposit, much of that should be going to the artist so they don't starve in the 2 months it takes them to do the project.
Jathom wrote: This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck.
But Tenebre had to pay the majority of the project up front. If that money is only going to the artist AFTER the project is done then it's horrible mismanagement. When Tenebre pays his deposit, much of that should be going to the artist so they don't starve in the 2 months it takes them to do the project.
This a million times. I realized some of it has to go to supplies, however with the rumor that they were so behind on earlier commissions inventory they had to stall and use later commission deposits for them is truly horrible management if True. Same thing goes for what happened to Spencer, if he was on a commissioned basis for the webstore and having Shawn sell product before him because its ooooo shiny moment and need for content on updates.
Jathom, thanks for some insight, its just when people start seeing the artists constantly in updates doing personal Items and on the Computer playing WoW or LoL(only really 2 staff do this to my knowledge) it gets people like Tenebre to wonder WTF is going on with his project if someone has the time to mess with one of the other staffs stuff. I understand taking breaks on major projects, to keep on from getting burned out and all, as well as working on multiple projects at once, It doesnt excuse lack of updates to clients, poor quality control and other such snafus that arise. Yes inventory is a factor to complete projects but then you move on to something that is available to do, just like when you prep in a kitchen. If your roomies, or spouse is bring something home you need like milk or something to get as much done as possible until you need that milk.
Also if any of the staff is getting paid once something is finished, I hope they are working other jobs or have someone else in their live they depend on. Mind you I know nothing of cost of living in Utah, but if a project is to last roughly 2-4 weeks and say its around $300 to $700, and after you take the commission percentage and split that up among Assembly and Painting, that doesnt seem like someone can make a living off of how BTP presents it self.
Jathom wrote: In defense of BTP employees using their time at the studio to NOT work on client projects: they are commission paid. They do not make anything hourly and do not get paid while working on their own stuff. They are only paid when a project is completed.
This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck. For the majority of the people who work there, this is their sole source of income and so projects like that usually get picked up by multiple artists so they can be completed in less than 2 weeks, which means splitting the pay. It also means that the paint job WILL NOT be consistent because more than one person is painting. No matter how they train, most of the people there were hobbiests first so they have different skills and different levels of expertise.
Not defending how poorly it was done, because it was crap, just wanted to make sure folks around here have an understanding of some of the ways the artists work and deal with the job there.
On the Shannon thing, she was the HR person, the office manager, the packing specialist, and the person who did all the logistics for Valhalla; and Spencer was right, she SHOULD have been running the company. Allowing Shawn to run around and do his thing without impacting the running of the company.
Kudos,
Another (former) BTP Artist.
I did freelance legal research and writing when i was younger and was paid on a X percent on delivery, Y percent after requested revisions are complete. However, for large projects (which was my decision, not theirs), i could "draw" on part of Y. Remember, it was essentially a contract, and if i engaged in breach, i was working for absolutely the worst people to breach a contract with ; lawyers!
If this is how the artists are paid, and there's no draw, no schedule of retention and payout at milestones, then no wonder any job worth more than 1-2 weeks of effort comes out with quality issues. Because it's asinine. You would need contractors that are skilled at what they do, but also financially intelligent, or you are basically guaranteeing that you're bringing on an employee that is going to have issues NOT speed rushing through a project because he has to make rent. / car payment / groceries.
I mean... i dunno... maybe Jah or Crabby can chime in... is this typical in commission work ? Just sounds like a really bad idea from the outset.
Jathom wrote: This is also part of the problem (for the artists) with projects like Tenebre's. It's a multiweek project for an artist, which means they will be going at least one pay cycle with no paycheck.
But Tenebre had to pay the majority of the project up front. If that money is only going to the artist AFTER the project is done then it's horrible mismanagement. When Tenebre pays his deposit, much of that should be going to the artist so they don't starve in the 2 months it takes them to do the project.
I don't know if i agree with "much", but yeah, on a large project, some of it should go to the artist.
Because here's the thing, as a manager myself, if i have to worry about my team's skillset AND THEIR PRIVATE financial competency, I literally don't know how i would get any work done. By private financial competency, I mean does BIllie-Bob who just took on the 9k point huge, upper level of detail project have a couple grand in the bank to make rent, car payment, and groceries for the next 3 months this takes him. Or does Billie Bob live toally paycheck to paycheck, and after 3 weeks of this he's going to be rushing trhough the project like Sonic the hedgehog mainlining methamphetamine simply so he can get paid and take care of his bills.
If they don't have an advance or draw system, or retentions payment schedule, then that's probably half of their quality issues right there. It's people biting off more than they can chew while probably not having enough financial resources between paydays. This creates stress to get paid, rushing, sloppiness. Would also totally explain the inconsistency, as i'm sure the art directors get paid in a similar manner (i.e. speed and smoothness of things out the door on a first touch basis, rather than really acting as a second pair of eyes and final arbiter to quality).
I don't know if i agree with "much", but yeah, on a large project, some of it should go to the artist.
Because here's the thing, as a manager myself, if i have to worry about my team's skillset AND THEIR PRIVATE financial competency, I literally don't know how i would get any work done. By private financial competency, I mean does BIllie-Bob who just took on the 9k point huge, upper level of detail project have a couple grand in the bank to make rent, car payment, and groceries for the next 3 months this takes him. Or does Billie Bob live toally paycheck to paycheck, and after 3 weeks of this he's going to be rushing trhough the project like Sonic the hedgehog mainlining methamphetamine simply so he can get paid and take care of his bills.
If they don't have an advance or draw system, or retentions payment schedule, then that's probably half of their quality issues right there. It's people biting off more than they can chew while probably not having enough financial resources between paydays. This creates stress to get paid, rushing, sloppiness. Would also totally explain the inconsistency, as i'm sure the art directors get paid in a similar manner (i.e. speed and smoothness of things out the door on a first touch basis, rather than really acting as a second pair of eyes and final arbiter to quality).
God... i'm so glad i paint my own stuff.
Exalted for improved managerial thinking
On this video back from 2007 we can see Shawn from Blue Table Painting sharing with us his idea of how pricing should be figured out.
Please notice that on 0:50 he says that the reasonable amount of time needed for a professional artist to finish painting a miniature is tested by himself...
Well unless you have painted a large amount of minis you can't really figure out how much work it is needs to achieve the wanted result can you? You just have to do it into a reasonable
amount of time according to Shawn and get enough money to pay your bills. It is no wonder artists rush through a project "like Sonic the hedgehog mainlining methamphetamine simply so he can get paid
and take care of his bills." I can't even imagine the hell he gives them if they fall behind on time besides not getting paid!
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I think the whole "showing employees playing games" and "talking more about my DnD campaign" is another symptom of the naivete on Shawn's part. To him, I think the image of a relaxed and "fun" workplace are the intent of those things, after all, I don't think I'm stretching much in saying that a workplace where you have room to play and a boss who is a friend as well as a boss is a very appealing thing, regardless of the job. And heck, one of my old jobs had a place where employees could just relax and watch movies and it was great. The problem with Shawn, however, is that it seems like he believes showing that is all he needs to do. That by showing how loose and happy the workplace is it shows how successful as a friendly boss he is. However, the equation is not balanced. You can't exalt the loose casual work atmosphere when your work is receiving complaints of lax and underwhelming performance.
I'm not surprised about the level of turnover, either. I had a friend express interest once in working for them, but quickly changed his tune after the first Skype call with Shawn. He described it as "everything felt wrong about it" when discussing how he would be paid by Shawn. Again, more signs of a lack of grounded vision and naivete on Shawn's part. I think he sincerely believes that he is doing the right thing, that he does not want a "serious" and stuffy business and that by doing this, he is looking out for his employees in a wider scope than someone who just signs the checks. However (there's always a however), all ships need a captain, and Shawn does not feel like he wants to LEAD.
I have to disagree - not because BTP didn't screw up. They did so in spades. (Royal blue, and tattooed too!)
But... look at GW... bragging in their stockholder report that they don't do market research? That GW had a 'great year' unless you counted growing their market? (Last year was just as good - Attacking a charity project over the use of the term 'Space Marine'?)
These are gaffs that caught attention from media outside of the hobby (or the HHHOBBY).
BTP screwed up, but they are not ready for the big league.... Folks outside of the community have not been reading about them in the papers....
I have to disagree - not because BTP didn't screw up. They did so in spades. (Royal blue, and tattooed too!)
But... look at GW... bragging in their stockholder report that they don't do market research? That GW had a 'great year' unless you counted growing their market? (Last year was just as good - Attacking a charity project over the use of the term 'Space Marine'?)
These are gaffs that caught attention from media outside of the hobby (or the HHHOBBY).
BTP screwed up, but they are not ready for the big league.... Folks outside of the community have not been reading about them in the papers....
The Auld Grump
Yeah, but that's all old news for GW. Their annual reports are straight up crazy, talking about moats, rants about 3d printing, boasting about suing the crap out of small companies in Eastern Europe and dishing on the hard parts about sucking people into blowing money on plastic models (instead of saying they produce quality products). Pick any annual report from the last 10 years and you will find similar levels of nucking futz in the pages.
Dumb of the Year awards don't do them justice. They deserve lifetime achievements.
Blue Table Painting, on the other hand, mostly gets it's business off Google searches and links back to their site from a relatively small list of websites. Every time someone says they screwed tenebre, he gets a millimeter closer on his 20 kilo journey to a refund. But when someone says GW is crazy, everyone just agrees and buys more miniatures.
Your vote for Blue Table Painting for Worst Business Decision makes a minor, almost insignificant difference in the grand scheme of things. Don't waste your vote on something everyone already knows.
I have to disagree - not because BTP didn't screw up. They did so in spades. (Royal blue, and tattooed too!)
But... look at GW... bragging in their stockholder report that they don't do market research? That GW had a 'great year' unless you counted growing their market? (Last year was just as good - Attacking a charity project over the use of the term 'Space Marine'?)
These are gaffs that caught attention from media outside of the hobby (or the HHHOBBY).
BTP screwed up, but they are not ready for the big league.... Folks outside of the community have not been reading about them in the papers....
The Auld Grump
Yeah, but that's all old news for GW. Their annual reports are straight up crazy, talking about moats, rants about 3d printing, boasting about suing the crap out of small companies in Eastern Europe and dishing on the hard parts about sucking people into blowing money on plastic models (instead of saying they produce quality products). Pick any annual report from the last 10 years and you will find similar levels of nucking futz in the pages.
Dumb of the Year awards don't do them justice. They deserve lifetime achievements.
Blue Table Painting, on the other hand, mostly gets it's business off Google searches and links back to their site from a relatively small list of websites. Every time someone says they screwed tenebre, he gets a millimeter closer on his 20 kilo journey to a refund. But when someone says GW is crazy, everyone just agrees and buys more miniatures.
Your vote for Blue Table Painting for Worst Business Decision makes a minor, almost insignificant difference in the grand scheme of things. Don't waste your vote on something everyone already knows.
I'm gong to agree here. I'm a GW game fan, but even i'm of the opinion that being surprised that Dumb comes out of GW is like being surprised that Waffles come out of a Waffle Iron.
So that said, it's nothing new that GW is epically slow when it comes to business decisions ; however Blue Table Painting, a miniature painting service, really made a strong splash on the "horrible business decisions" scene with this entire scenario. I think they deserve this hard won (dis)honor.
curran12 wrote: I think the whole "showing employees playing games" and "talking more about my DnD campaign" is another symptom of the naivete on Shawn's part. To him, I think the image of a relaxed and "fun" workplace are the intent of those things, after all, I don't think I'm stretching much in saying that a workplace where you have room to play and a boss who is a friend as well as a boss is a very appealing thing, regardless of the job. And heck, one of my old jobs had a place where employees could just relax and watch movies and it was great. The problem with Shawn, however, is that it seems like he believes showing that is all he needs to do. That by showing how loose and happy the workplace is it shows how successful as a friendly boss he is. However, the equation is not balanced. You can't exalt the loose casual work atmosphere when your work is receiving complaints of lax and underwhelming performance.
I'm not surprised about the level of turnover, either. I had a friend express interest once in working for them, but quickly changed his tune after the first Skype call with Shawn. He described it as "everything felt wrong about it" when discussing how he would be paid by Shawn. Again, more signs of a lack of grounded vision and naivete on Shawn's part. I think he sincerely believes that he is doing the right thing, that he does not want a "serious" and stuffy business and that by doing this, he is looking out for his employees in a wider scope than someone who just signs the checks. However (there's always a however), all ships need a captain, and Shawn does not feel like he wants to LEAD.
"Everything felt wrong about it" Is the thing you should focus on here. I do not belive that Shawn is a Relaxed and easy going dude.. The more videos I watch with him the more I get the feeling that he tries to hide his "true self".. He shows his "mask" to the public and tries to hide "The Dark Side".. As I have stated before The dude gives me the creeps.. I am a really good judge of character and sadly my first inpressions of people are almost never wrong... I have a real skill for it to be honest... And there "definitely is something wrong here", you can trust me on this...
You can train your social skills.. And I have had to do it since forever, Some people are born with great memory/mathematical skills and some are born with High social skills and if you train them you become really good at judging peoples charecter. Sadly this has also made me very jaded and cynical.. And I grow more and more tired of people in general, it also becomes very boring to always be right.. I can have a conversaion with someone for about 30m and then know exacly what makes them tick... I am also very manipulative myself, and Shawn comes across as a manipulative person that has some serious issues that he is trying desperately to hide..
1) Read the title of the thread.
2) Think about all the warnings that have already been placed in this thread for going off topic, for making personal attacks, etc.
3) Ask yourself "Is my post going to follow all the rules of this site, including but not limited to being on topic and polite?" If the answer is no - then DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD. If the answer is yes, please do post.
That's it.
From now on, it is all about warnings, suspensions and thread locks.
"Everything felt wrong about it" Is the thing you should focus on here. I do not belive that Shawn is a Relaxed and easy going dude.. The more videos I watch with him the more I get the feeling that he tries to hide his "true self".. He shows his "mask" to the public and tries to hide "The Dark Side".. As I have stated before The dude gives me the creeps.. I am a really good judge of character and sadly my first inpressions of people are almost never wrong... I have a real skill for it to be honest... And there "definitely is something wrong here", you can trust me on this...
You can train your social skills.. And I have had to do it since forever, Some people are born with great memory/mathematical skills and some are born with High social skills and if you train them you become really good at judging peoples charecter. Sadly this has also made me very jaded and cynical.. And I grow more and more tired of people in general, it also becomes very boring to always be right.. I can have a conversaion with someone for about 30m and then know exacly what makes them tick... I am also very manipulative myself, and Shawn comes across as a manipulative person that has some serious issues that he is trying desperately to hide..
Humble brag. Is this an advertisement for your psychoanalyzing business? I would like a profile on Alpharius, if you please Nutcase? Hero? Future talk show host? Stamp connoisseur? Hoarder (and not just minis)? LMK.
It will be interesting seeing how this all plays out for Blue Table. I am throwing my support to Tenebre and hope he gets a refund in the end. As a small business owner since 1995, I can clearly see this as a classic case of "when the cat is away the mice will play" scenario. These days especially you have to have someone, usually the owner, watching the service process closely or have someone in the company who has a vested interest in things.....ie...Shannon. The whole matter was handled horribly by the owner and has now blown up as a result. We are a close community and Shawn should know this by now. My solution: Refund the entire project cost. Put out an apology video to the community and fans. Completely revamp the "level" system and costs. Stick with what you do best....building and painting armies! Keep the self help and rants to another channel. Make sure the customer has contact with the artist directly. Go back to a "team" project artists concept as introduced by Sarah. The customer has contact with the "lead" artist. This will insure continuity and speed up the larger projects. Have the customer purchase his/her own models and only do assembly and painting! Hope this helps BTP in some way moving forward. Cheers! aka Allen Smith...aka youtube Crazie German.
I am curious though as I saw this on the facebooks page of Blue Table Painting a commission painting service in Utah's wall:
Be my room-mate. I'm looking for a business to share my building with, something wargame related that blends with (but does not compete with) what I'm doing. I have 10,000 square feet of workshop and showroom. I'm looking for a company that will/does employ 8+ people. Contact me at bluetablepainting@gmail.com if interested.
I am curious though as I saw this on the facebooks page of Blue Table Painting a commission painting service in Utah's wall:
Be my room-mate. I'm looking for a business to share my building with, something wargame related that blends with (but does not compete with) what I'm doing. I have 10,000 square feet of workshop and showroom. I'm looking for a company that will/does employ 8+ people. Contact me at bluetablepainting@gmail.com if interested.
At first glance that reads like they are having trouble paying the rent and need to sublet space to stay in the building. I couldn't imagine having to be in the same building when that fool is making his video intro.
Graxous wrote: Maybe a quality control & customer relations business can move in.
lol that was pretty good. I don't think When I really think about it I don't want to see blue table painting fail or anything, but I could certainly stand to see shawn eating some humble pie.
The up to 8 employee thing doesn't bother me too much. I mean, assuming he has some kind of sense, he'd know roughly how many people his rental space can take (not just in terms of office space, but also things like parking and so on). Of course, I am a bit curious at the timing as that kind of physical space must have created such immense overhead that Shawn had to have known this would happen. Which makes me wonder why he didn't seek 'roommates' right out of the gate.
My friend used to work at BTP. He quoted as below:
"I'm not working at Btp anymore because I'm tired of always earning a little amount of money and Shawn having no ethics. I worked for the company for 5 years and I made a lot of contribution to BTP's terrain team but I got nothing for it. He does whatever he wants, and wants with no interference from anyone in btp. He believes himself entirely in the right all the time. The Dropzone Commander "studio" armies given to him for free by Dave Lewis, not painted by him. Shawn doesn't upload HD vids since (according to him) takes too much time and effort. Though he looks like an honest hard-working man, I was disappointed when I left the company 7 years ago. I won't be working for them ever again."
Part of the settlement included non disclosure as is common in all legal settlements. Therefore I can not comment any further or provide any additional details.
