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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Omadon's Realm

 tenebre wrote:
 Casey's Law wrote:
I don't think it is too late. From what we've seen, Ten is a very sound, intelligent man and if they offered him something reasonable like a full refund and apology he would graciously except it. I could be wrong but that's the vibe I get from him. But BTP won't go down that road because they are the unreasonable party here.


Yeah when they flat out refused to offer anything more than 20% store credit. and that is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. Once they started sending out altered emails and trying to dismiss my complaint publicly i gave up.


And whilst the 20% store only credit (which I imagine is part of their markup and therefore not even an offer at all) was poor customer service... The editing of emails and duplicity involved, not to mention the absolute breach of confidentiality, is the most damning part of this.

Anything prior to that could be attributed to ineptitude and stupidity, that action however, and the hot on the heels 'surprise endorsements' from MWG, served to totally damn Shawn Gately in my eyes and I think the eyes of most others watching these threads and this incident.

It was scheming, underhand and, frankly, an admission of guilt.



 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







I think most people watching these threads can see exactly what's going on here. Sadly anyone who can't see it isn't going to have some sort of sudden epiphany at this stage. The best we can hope for is that these threads and those before it will help to inform people who are looking for a painting service in the future.

I'll be interested to see the result that Ten's lawyers get and if that changes things in the future.

   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Sweden

 Casey's Law wrote:
I think most people watching these threads can see exactly what's going on here. Sadly anyone who can't see it isn't going to have some sort of sudden epiphany at this stage. The best we can hope for is that these threads and those before it will help to inform people who are looking for a painting service in the future.

I'll be interested to see the result that Ten's lawyers get and if that changes things in the future.


We can always hope..

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.  
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Sidstyler wrote:
It was an exchange of product/services, and possibly other perks like getting to go to Valhalla free of charge (which is insanely expensive). BTP had advertising "credit" that they earned by doing work for MWG and they cashed it in so they would do a video for BTP advertising the service.

I think the fact that the video was taken down shortly after and Matt refused to comment on it is probably proof that they aren't entirely blind. I don't necessarily see it as MWG coming to BTP's rescue and shilling for them, though it certainly didn't help much. Especially Matt's reiteration that BTP has thousands of completed projects and they're all happy, implying that tenebre's was either a special case or just didn't really matter in the end as others have apparently spent far more than even he has.


I wrote a detailed breakdown of the endorsement, and the video was taken down about 2 hours after this post went up.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/618082/7352389.page#7352389

There was a lot going on in that video and it suggested to me Matt was not actually advocating for people to use BTP's services. While you have to take what people say on face value, the way it was done and what Matt actually said seemed to be telling people to go use some other service.

This is why I say that.

1) The substance of what Matt said was mostly founded on unprovable assertions and not demonstrable facts. It's one thing to say they have done 8,000 jobs, it's another to say that in a context that proves a point. He never really did that, he just kind of brought up this metric without mentioning what a remarkable achievement that is, any statistics about the size of the jobs, etc. That really stood out to me, the dull presentation of facts made them lose any impact they have have carried.

2) You can tell a story a lot of different ways, and Matt showed miniatures and pictures of BTPs work that were less than spectacular throughout the video. Maybe some people would be satisfied with those models, but it was like the story about the Emperor's New Clothes. If this was meant to persuade me that BTP is something special, it failed comically. There was nothing presented that I could not have done better and (at the rates BTP charges) the only thing it made me think is this is a rip off. Like, if I had never heard the name tenebre, the specific models and pictures Matt chose to show would have made most people think BTPs services are a rip off.

3) I thought about how much BTP had to do to earn enough credit for Matt to do this endorsement video. That had to be a lot of miniatures, man hours going into painting the miniatures, comps to events, etc to get to this point where they create a video that's only up for a few days and generates a lot of negative comments. Matt knew about the debates going on in the community and left the comments open in the video. That is the most telling piece of all this - he put up something in a way that would fail, and certainly should have known there would be a lot of negative feedback.

Now, I have followed Matt's videos for years and know how articulate he can be about the industry, finer points about running a business, the gaming community, etc. He is very controlled in the points he chooses to make and doesn't seem to say things for the sake of hearing himself talk. If he wanted to say something that really made BTP sound like a great company, that would not have been hard for him to do. I mean, he's capable of much more articulate arguments, he knows how to make a point, there are better pictures of painted models on BTPs website, etc.

But Matt chose to put those things into his video. It sounded to me like Matt was taking out the trash and doing his part to make BTP treat their customer's fairly. If Shawn from BTP is not thinking the same thing, that would really surprise me. Not that I think that's a good way to run a business like MWG, it raises all kinds of questions about whether or not it's safe to deal with Matt. But this was the worst endorsement I have ever seen of any product or service ever, and it's hard for me to believe that happened accidentally.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/30 13:53:51


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Omadon's Realm

 techsoldaten wrote:

There was a lot going on in that video and it suggested to me Matt was not actually advocating for people to use BTP's services. While you have to take what people say on face value, the way it was done and what Matt actually said seemed to be telling people to go use some other service.

This is why I say that.

1) The substance of what Matt said was mostly founded on unprovable assertions and not demonstrable facts. It's one thing to say they have done 8,000 jobs, it's another to say that in a context that proves a point. He never really did that, he just kind of brought up this metric without mentioning what a remarkable achievement that is, any statistics about the size of the jobs, etc. That really stood out to me, the dull presentation of facts made them lose any impact they have have carried.

2) You can tell a story a lot of different ways, and Matt showed miniatures and pictures of BTPs work that were less than spectacular throughout the video. Maybe some people would be satisfied with those models, but it was like the story about the Emperor's New Clothes. If this was meant to persuade me that BTP is something special, it failed comically. There was nothing presented that I could not have done better and (at the rates BTP charges) the only thing it made me think is this is a rip off. Like, if I had never heard the name tenebre, the specific models and pictures Matt chose to show would have made most people think BTPs services are a rip off.

3) I thought about how much BTP had to do to earn enough credit for Matt to do this endorsement video. That had to be a lot of miniatures, man hours going into painting the miniatures, comps to events, etc to get to this point where they create a video that's only up for a few days and generates a lot of negative comments. Matt knew about the debates going on in the community and left the comments open in the video. That is the most telling piece of all this - he put up something in a way that would fail, and certainly should have known there would be a lot of negative feedback.

Now, I have followed Matt's videos for years and know how articulate he can be about the industry, finer points about running a business, the gaming community, etc. He is very controlled in the points he chooses to make and doesn't seem to say things for the sake of hearing himself talk. If he wanted to say something that really made BTP sound like a great company, that would not have been hard for him to do. I mean, he's capable of much more articulate arguments, he knows how to make a point, there are better pictures of painted models on BTPs website, etc.

But Matt chose to put those things into his video. It strikes me as Matt taking out the trash and doing his part to make BTP treat their customer's fairly. If Shawn from BTP is not thinking the same thing, that would really surprise me. Not that I think that's a good way to run a business like MWG, it raises all kinds of questions about whether or not it's safe to deal with Matt. But this was the worst endorsement I have ever seen of any product or service ever, and it's hard for me to believe that happened accidentally.


So the entire endorsement video was actually a subliminal criticism of Blue Table rather than an endorsement...? Despite the wide open amount of 'favors' Blue Table does for MWG and the backscratching and the previous endorsement video...?

Sorry mate, that reads like the lunar landings conspiracies I get told by smelly people on the bus. MWG are totally guilty of cynical favored endorsements with timing that was entirely prompted and cronyism, much as some of their fans don't want to hear it.



 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

So the entire endorsement video was actually a subliminal criticism of Blue Table rather than an endorsement...? Despite the wide open amount of 'favors' Blue Table does for MWG and the backscratching and the previous endorsement video...?

Sorry mate, that reads like the lunar landings conspiracies I get told by smelly people on the bus. MWG are totally guilty of cynical favored endorsements with timing that was entirely prompted and cronyism, much as some of their fans don't want to hear it.


No. I am saying Matt could have done a much better job if he really wanted to make the case BTP is a great service. He chose not to, and this is what people should take away from it.

   
Made in se
Been Around the Block





 techsoldaten wrote:
 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

So the entire endorsement video was actually a subliminal criticism of Blue Table rather than an endorsement...? Despite the wide open amount of 'favors' Blue Table does for MWG and the backscratching and the previous endorsement video...?

Sorry mate, that reads like the lunar landings conspiracies I get told by smelly people on the bus. MWG are totally guilty of cynical favored endorsements with timing that was entirely prompted and cronyism, much as some of their fans don't want to hear it.


No. I am saying Matt could have done a much better job if he really wanted to make the case BTP is a great service. He chose not to, and this is what people should take away from it.


It still was a bad move on his part, would have been better to sit this one out.. Most of the other Table-top news media on youtube have stayed clear of picking any side in this... Better to stay neutral then advocate or trash something.. "stay out of it" would have been the smart move here..

And for him sending subtle message by showing "crappy painted stuff" that is kinda far fetched and would go over most peoples heads..

What he could do now to "save face" is to publicy say that he was wrong... but the smart thing to do is just let it fade away.. Hopefully people will just remember how badly BTP screwed up and not that MWG was involved hehe..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/01 03:03:51


 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Sweden

Sadly I have not watched a singel MWG video since matt made his stance clear. Which is sad, cause I loved to watch those videos..

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.  
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Bowling Green Ohio

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
Sadly I have not watched a singel MWG video since matt made his stance clear. Which is sad, cause I loved to watch those videos..


I only like the old world wars series.
Everything else is GAK.
But I don't like warmahordes, 40k, or anything other whan WHFB and my historical games...sooo yeah lol
I'm not too sad to have unsubbed

Thanks
Austin

Thought for the day: It is better to die for the Emperor than to live for yourself
 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Looking forward to updates on the resolution of the issues with BTP. I know it takes time for updates, just bumping this to make sure no one forgets.

   
Made in se
Been Around the Block





 techsoldaten wrote:
Looking forward to updates on the resolution of the issues with BTP. I know it takes time for updates, just bumping this to make sure no one forgets.


I think a good thing to remember is "To forget is to forgive, Forget Nothing!... and we will not let BTP get away with anymore gak!
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz





St Louis

 techsoldaten wrote:
Looking forward to updates on the resolution of the issues with BTP. I know it takes time for updates, just bumping this to make sure no one forgets.


they have said that my project is nothing and that my prolbelm was simply not that important. There can not be a resolution with BTP because they refuse so.

However, legal proceedings are underway. I wish I could give updates faster but it could take months.

Orks! ~28000
Chaos Dwarfs ~9000
Slaanesh ~14700

Gaming Mayhem on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/MovieMayhem6

Ork P&M Blog: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/625538.page#7400396

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 tenebre wrote:
However, legal proceedings are underway. I wish I could give updates faster but it could take months.
Don't worry man, we'll still be here, waiting patiently.

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

is there a summary of what happened here? don't fancy trolling through 51 pages
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







Just watch his Youtube videos then!
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Sweden

 Formosa wrote:
is there a summary of what happened here? don't fancy trolling through 51 pages


OP hired BTP to do a huge commission for him. BTP did not communicate, did not send pictures, delivered the product way over time and the results they had produced were abysmal. The OP was not satisfied. BTP replies that they did nothing wrong and that OP wasn't right. Offered a few fixes, when OP accepted one of them they withdrew the offer and left the OP out in the cold. BTP furthermore tried to force OP to remove a video he had posted online as a review of BTP painting service. BTP's firm belief is that painting commissions should be hidden away behind locks and not to be viewed by the public.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.  
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







Give a man a fish...
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Sweden

and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.  
   
Made in us
Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN


"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"

-Nobody Ever

Proverbs 18:2

"CHEESE!" is the battlecry of the ill-prepared.

 warboss wrote:

GW didn't mean to hit your wallet and I know they love you, baby. I'm sure they won't do it again so it's ok to purchase and make up.


Albatross wrote:I think SlaveToDorkness just became my new hero.

EmilCrane wrote:Finecast is the new Matt Ward.

Don't mess with the Blade and Bolter! 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







Formosa's gonna have some hungry days ahead, thanks to you!
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Sweden

 Alpharius wrote:
Formosa's gonna have some hungry days ahead, thanks to you!


LIES!

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.  
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

thanks guys, I have also watched 2 of the vids and I am very put off by BTP, I was basically doing a bit of market research to see what competition is out there and if BTP is the biggest then we have no worries at all.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I'm not from a first world country.

 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!





Chicago

sauhwq wrote:
I'm not from a first world country.


Didn't know the states wasn't considered first world

Ustrello paints- 30k, 40k multiple armies
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614742.page 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Didn't know it was relevant to the thread

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker





St. Louis, MO

This is my unfortunate BTP experience from years ago. I had an entire space marine battle company so I had them do some test figs; needless to say I am glad I did...


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Man, what an obnoxiously bad job.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

sorry dinamarth I have to call shenanigans on that I don't WANT to believe they sent that to you, please tell me that it was already painted badly and that is a salvage attempt... please
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Dallas Texas

I've had one commission done. I spent alot of money and time modeling a Eldar Jetseer Council. I really wanted it to look good as it was a heck of a unit to convert. I can paint ok, but Im not gifted with a painters skills.

I had the below do it, was really happy with how it turned out. Really good guy.

https://www.facebook.com/redmodelingpainting

5000+ pts. Eldar 2500pts
"The only thing that match's the Eldar's firepower, is their arrogance".
8th General at Alamo GT 2011.
Tied 2nd General Alamo GT 2012
Top General Lower Bracket Railhead 2011
Top General Railhead 2012
# of Local Tournaments Won: 4
28-9-1 In Tournaments As Eldar.
Maintained a 75% Win Ratio As Eldar in 5th Edition GT's.



 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

 Dinamarth wrote:
This is my unfortunate BTP experience from years ago. I had an entire space marine battle company so I had them do some test figs; needless to say I am glad I did...

Spoiler:


...the feth is that? Like, seriously? I'm assuming you didn't send it to them already with thick layers of paint obscuring the details, right?

I'm a crap painter and even I would put out something better than that.

 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
 
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