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Very nice work by Frontline Gaming! Those Bull Centaurs are fierce now! The paint now does justice to those amazing models.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Please people keep the discussion about the events with BTP here and only comment on the repaint on the blog.

Yes please do this.

I promise an update about the BTP problem will come in the next 2-4 weeks.

Repaint's looking fantastic Ten, the blood is gruesome yet so appropriate
Also does anyone have info on the BTP vs CHS ordeal? I didn't know about that, though it doesn't surprise me that Shawn has a history for doing these sorts of thing.

 Flippa wrote:
This really got me...

From Shawn himself no less...

"I don't get in arguments with clients. I simply ask them what they want done. If there is a problem I can give a refund or make corrections. Since Nick has made this issue public, I say "Nick, what do you want me to do?" "

Where is this customer service now Shawn? Why not give a refund in Tenebre's case?

Because it was a lie? Not sure how it works in the US, but in Sweden words are legally binding. If he had said something like that to the OP and then went back on his word, he would be liable to prosecution in a court of law.

 tenebre wrote:

 Flippa wrote:
This really got me...

From Shawn himself no less...

"I don't get in arguments with clients. I simply ask them what they want done. If there is a problem I can give a refund or make corrections. Since Nick has made this issue public, I say "Nick, what do you want me to do?" "

Where is this customer service now Shawn? Why not give a refund in Tenebre's case?

he said because i "chose to move it to the court of public opinion"

He is literally teaching the customer a lesson ....

And now, because of his intransigence, you're moving it to actual court....

I 've watched this carefully and I really sympathize tenebre because he endured a lot and spend an awful lot of money to receive only frustration from BTP.

The "You never talk to the artist" argument is the one that puts the final coffin nail on BTP as a service for me. They are so afraid that the artist by getting in contact with the client will steal him from BTP? Because besides that there is absolutely no reason to avoid artist and client contact.

I cant imagine myself as a commission painter/business not talking to the client so he can express exactly what he wants. Most importantly when he receives wip pics he must be able to communicate any corrections needed in the most direct way.

A company is measured by the way it handles clients with any kind of problem. MWG is coming to their defense claiming that BTP has a long record of satisfied clients and that somehow diminishes the value of money tenebre spent to have his army painted. They are great I vote for them

cause they have painted so many armies but if you get a model with primer as paint for which you payed a hefty amount of money well... tough luck s$#@t happens better luck next time. So much BS from Mathew within a 3 min vid.

Common sense nowadays is becoming so rare that its going to be considered a superpower...

 Capamaru wrote:
The "You never talk to the artist" argument is the one that puts the final coffin nail on BTP as a service for me. They are so afraid that the artist by getting in contact with the client will steal him from BTP? Because besides that there is absolutely no reason to avoid artist and client contact.

I cant imagine myself as a commission painter/business not talking to the client so he can express exactly what he wants. Most importantly when he receives wip pics he must be able to communicate any corrections needed in the most direct way.

What's really stupid is that it's not like BTP can't host a conference call at basically zero cost. Heck, they can even sit in on the call to monitor it. And it's not like they aren't already sitting on a pile of cash and the models.

ya know for a company that cares about there customers/community you did every thing that every war gamer is kinda nervous about when using a painting service for the 1st time or any time . even on the web store things that are painted by them are crazy money for the work .idk kinda sloppy imo for the price http://www.bluetablestore.com/warhammer-40k/chaos-daemons/chaos-daemons-blood-throne-of-khorne-lot-12057

How do you miss stray yellow brush strokes on black?

 Ustrello wrote:
How do you miss stray yellow brush strokes on black?

"We can do better but we only do what the customer pays for."

 flabluker wrote:
ya know for a company that cares about there customers/community you did every thing that every war gamer is kinda nervous about when using a painting service for the 1st time or any time . even on the web store things that are painted by them are crazy money for the work .idk kinda sloppy imo for the price http://www.bluetablestore.com/warhammer-40k/chaos-daemons/chaos-daemons-blood-throne-of-khorne-lot-12057

It's weird isn't it. There's a number of effects on there, that look pretty good for TT quality (not sure what it's supposed to be on their level). But then, you see the yellow AROUND the eye, rather than in it. And I just don't understand how that happens. Maybe it's just me, but that's just the worst mistake you can make. I'm not a great painter, but I'll ALWAYS fix that problem up, and it's not even hard to fix!

Guys.... I don't think thows are stray yellow brush strokes. I think that's their idea of Object source lighting on the eyes.


=/

This is what I found when it comes to "stray yellow brush strokes"

 Alfndrate wrote:
This is what I found when it comes to "stray yellow brush strokes"

Yeah that is kinda unacceptable because it is on the front of the model and right above that pool which looks like too sometime to do. So whoever was painting it should of noticed it.

This stuff is fun and all, but it's a pretty pointless discussion in a vaccuum.
Every paintjob is worth some amount of $. (0 is an amount). Without knowing what would be charged for this work it's all pretty pointless and, honestly, undermines more legitimate and focused criticism of BTP.
Namely that they provided ridiculously poor value for money for tenebre, that they didn't back up their own promises with actions, and that they made little to no genuine effort to resolve the situation.

Well said.

 plastictrees wrote:
This stuff is fun and all, but it's a pretty pointless discussion in a vaccuum.
Every paintjob is worth some amount of $. (0 is an amount). Without knowing what would be charged for this work it's all pretty pointless and, honestly, undermines more legitimate and focused criticism of BTP.
Namely that they provided ridiculously poor value for money for tenebre, that they didn't back up their own promises with actions, and that they made little to no genuine effort to resolve the situation.

you right didnt mean too start nit picking or derail/undermine the thread they have every right too sell there painted models for whatever price they can get .tenebre new thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/624649.page#7382552 is alot better too follow

tenebre, so glad about the repaint and that it's going well. Looking forward to updates.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
The "You never talk to the artist" argument is the one that puts the final coffin nail on BTP as a service for me. They are so afraid that the artist by getting in contact with the client will steal him from BTP? Because besides that there is absolutely no reason to avoid artist and client contact.

I cant imagine myself as a commission painter/business not talking to the client so he can express exactly what he wants. Most importantly when he receives wip pics he must be able to communicate any corrections needed in the most direct way.

What's really stupid is that it's not like BTP can't host a conference call at basically zero cost. Heck, they can even sit in on the call to monitor it. And it's not like they aren't already sitting on a pile of cash and the models.

They hire artists based on the number of models they can paint by the hour, and artists are paid based on some kind of commission scheme. The number of models per hour is not connected to the levels they advertise in any meaningful way, and the commission scheme requires people to paint a lot of models to make anything near a living wage.

That said, I cannot see how anyone would be compensated for phone calls. I don't think BTP can afford the overhead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flabluker wrote:
ya know for a company that cares about there customers/community you did every thing that every war gamer is kinda nervous about when using a painting service for the 1st time or any time . even on the web store things that are painted by them are crazy money for the work .idk kinda sloppy imo for the price http://www.bluetablestore.com/warhammer-40k/chaos-daemons/chaos-daemons-blood-throne-of-khorne-lot-12057

Most of the stuff on their webstore are a little crazy to look at. Sadly, you picked one of the best examples of their work.

I still can't believe that they think it's in their best interests to continue to wear negative publicity, by dragging this into court.
It's not too late (I presume) to contact tenebre and sort this out like reasonable human beings.

I don't think it is too late. From what we've seen, Ten is a very sound, intelligent man and if they offered him something reasonable like a full refund and apology he would graciously except it. I could be wrong but that's the vibe I get from him. But BTP won't go down that road because they are the unreasonable party here.

Once lawyers are involved, generally they become the only conduit for communication and advise both parties to say nothing else publicly, or to each other.

Partly this is so everything is notarised for if/when it goes to court, and the situation can be clearly examined without any 'he-said / they-said' going on, and partly so that the lawyers can argue between themselves to resolve the issue using whatever legal precedents they can think of to get the other side to settle before courts or judges get involved.

Lawyers are obliged to vigorously defend their client's position and to argue for the best outcome for their client. They can also only provide advice, not imperatives - if Shawn wants to argue he's done no wrong, he can. Whether his counsel gives him advice to do that or not depends on their evaluation of the situation and any evidence presented or other information available.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I don't think it is too late. From what we've seen, Ten is a very sound, intelligent man and if they offered him something reasonable like a full refund and apology he would graciously except it. I could be wrong but that's the vibe I get from him. But BTP won't go down that road because they are the unreasonable party here.

Yeah when they flat out refused to offer anything more than 20% store credit. and that is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. Once they started sending out altered emails and trying to dismiss my complaint publicly i gave up.

If they truly, truly wanted to make this right and admit that what they sold wasn't what they delivered on, a full refund and an apology would be the way to go. Having seen Tenebre's willingness to address matters in videos, it would be something I could see him making an update video noting as much (of his own accord; trying to wrangle it into a requirement as part of the refund would neuter much of the 'making things right' aspect).

From there, I'd make his original critique video required watching for all artists and managers that they work with, along with the note "LET'S NEVER HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN".

It is a chance to step back, say "Y'know what? Yeah, we done fethed up. And we're going to make it right." and strive to move forward with deeds (better painting, better communication).

This isn't going to get swept under the rug. If anything, the way the community has become involved (large threads on multiple sites, multiple painting services offering to do up figures at no charge, one service doing the whole damned thing, etc) means this isn't just going to fade away. I imagine this is the kind of stain that follows you around for years.

It won't stop them from getting work, but this is tangible damage to their business model, likely far above and beyond the cost of Tenebre's potential refund.

Not that I expect any of that to come to pass. That's some wistful thinking. But the more they dig in, and the more comparison videos and pics that come out showing other teams and individuals showcasing incredible work, the better advertising it becomes for others and against BTP.

It's going to remain the gift that keeps on giving, imo.

To frontline GAMeing... they showed that community interaction matters... (and this goes for all the others who also volunteered to fix up and repaint your army.. It is one of the more positive thing about this whole thing.

That BTP is an isolated thing and that most of the other painting services take their Craft seriously... To the point that they even offer to repaint stuff for for free to get some good PR...

I mean the before and after pictures on your stuff is clear evidence enough that BTP should close it doors for good.. They should not be in business charging money to paint miniatures....

It is to bad that Mini wargamign had to get dragged down with them, they should just have stayed out of this ... Because the overwhelming evidence syas that BTP really screwed up here...

Well let's just hope that BTP pays for what they have done..

 zlayer77 wrote:
It is to bad that Mini wargamign had to get dragged down with them, they should just have stayed out of this...

Yea, I'm not really sure what they were thinking.

 Breotan wrote:

 zlayer77 wrote:
It is to bad that Mini wargamign had to get dragged down with them, they should just have stayed out of this...

Yea, I'm not really sure what they were thinking.

$$$

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 zlayer77 wrote:
It is to bad that Mini wargamign had to get dragged down with them, they should just have stayed out of this...

Yea, I'm not really sure what they were thinking.

$$$

Yea, about that... exactly how much money could we possibly be talking about here? It can't possibly be enough to blind someone to reality.

It was an exchange of product/services, and possibly other perks like getting to go to Valhalla free of charge (which is insanely expensive). BTP had advertising "credit" that they earned by doing work for MWG and they cashed it in so they would do a video for BTP advertising the service.

I think the fact that the video was taken down shortly after and Matt refused to comment on it is probably proof that they aren't entirely blind. I don't necessarily see it as MWG coming to BTP's rescue and shilling for them, though it certainly didn't help much. Especially Matt's reiteration that BTP has thousands of completed projects and they're all happy, implying that tenebre's was either a special case or just didn't really matter in the end as others have apparently spent far more than even he has.

 Sidstyler wrote:
It was an exchange of product/services, and possibly other perks like getting to go to Valhalla free of charge (which is insanely expensive). BTP had advertising "credit" that they earned by doing work for MWG and they cashed it in so they would do a video for BTP advertising the service.

I think the fact that the video was taken down shortly after and Matt refused to comment on it is probably proof that they aren't entirely blind. I don't necessarily see it as MWG coming to BTP's rescue and shilling for them, though it certainly didn't help much. Especially Matt's reiteration that BTP has thousands of completed projects and they're all happy, implying that tenebre's was either a special case or just didn't really matter in the end as others have apparently spent far more than even he has.

The problem that I had was that there was no notion that ANYBODY could be unhappy with BTP, and they really made ten seem like a pain in the ass, by making BTP look like this GREAT company.

Matt always does these stupid plugs for people, that aggravates the piss out of me.. but this one was really bad.

Thanks
Austin