AllSeeingSkink wrote: My concern that it might hurt tenebre's legal actions when he publicly detailed the correspondence he's had with BTP, if it's bad for BTP to share communication surely it would be bad for tenebre to do it as well?
I'm definitely eager to see some more of the retouched models though.
I was suggesting that someone share BTPs disclosure with tenebre. Not that he share his version of the private correspondence.
Oh yeah, I understand that, I mean that he's already shared a lot of the correspondence in his videos and on various forums and I wondered if that would hurt his legal action.
It shouldn't.
I haven't seen him share a giant dump of all the conversation. He's just given a verbal account of his side of it (from what I've seen).
Also, there's a difference in whether something is considered private, for a customer or a company.
TinBane wrote: It shouldn't.
I haven't seen him share a giant dump of all the conversation. He's just given a verbal account of his side of it (from what I've seen).
Also, there's a difference in whether something is considered private, for a customer or a company.
This is an important distinction. I do not believe he has shared anything that is technically private (him being the customer). However shawn is the company and I think he may have passed on information, that from the
view of the company, would be considered private. I just don't know to what degree Shawn is giving away information.
themonk wrote: This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.
that was sent right after he withdrew the GMM repaint solution (after i accepted it) leaving me only the send it back choice (which would allow bt to "fix:" the models after i remove the video and "repair" all damage.... WOW... and of course he left off the entire first paragraph explaining that and he has not sent any contact since that time.
Two words: Defamatory behaviour. Mention it to your lawyer.
If you make any income whatsoever from your youtube channel (advertising etc) implying incorrectly that you are a liar or otherwise untrustworthy is damaging to your business.
The reverse is also true, (and if BTP have any sense they have a lawyer who's also told them this) so you have to watch what you say, and ensure you have evidence lodged (ideally held by your lawyer) for any statement you make publicly involving BTP.
TinBane wrote: It shouldn't.
I haven't seen him share a giant dump of all the conversation. He's just given a verbal account of his side of it (from what I've seen).
Also, there's a difference in whether something is considered private, for a customer or a company.
This is an important distinction. I do not believe he has shared anything that is technically private (him being the customer). However shawn is the company and I think he may have passed on information, that from the
view of the company, would be considered private. I just don't know to what degree Shawn is giving away information.
What he has sent out to customers is a highly edited version of the conversations (mostly removing my complaints and repeated status questions) Its geared to look like the mean customer is picking on the business owner. He removes all names so while unethical it is not in violation of the privacy act. I do have all original emails. he ends it with his generous offer to have GMM repaint but cuts off the retraction and removes all references to video removal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
winterdyne wrote: Two words: Defamatory behaviour. Mention it to your lawyer.
If you make any income whatsoever from your youtube channel (advertising etc) implying incorrectly that you are a liar or otherwise untrustworthy is damaging to your business.
The reverse is also true, (and if BTP have any sense they have a lawyer who's also told them this) so you have to watch what you say, and ensure you have evidence lodged (ideally held by your lawyer) for any statement you make publicly involving BTP.
yep long since done. Also this is why i can only answer certain things.... and I dont bother replying to comments on other channels.
tenebre wrote: What he has sent out to customers is a highly edited version of the conversations (mostly removing my complaints and repeated status questions) Its geared to look like the mean customer is picking on the business owner. He removes all names so while unethical it is not in violation of the privacy act. I do have all original emails. he ends it with his generous offer to have GMM repaint but cuts off the retraction and removes all references to video removal.
Wow... that's messed up!
Meaning, the part about their removing all demands to take the video down as a condition of restitution, and having the gall to end with an offer they retracted. Sheesh!
Another thing worth noting: If you look further in the comment, you will notice he states there's a chargeback for the full amount with the credit card company.
2 things:
1) He's asserting there's a chance tenebre gets a full refund regardless of what he does. Not sure if that's the reason, but it could explain some of his earlier actions and correspondence.
2) It's a little crazy how he sees the dispute process as being out of his hands. This is something he could settle today if he wanted to.
techsoldaten wrote: Another thing worth noting: If you look further in the comment, you will notice he states there's a chargeback for the full amount with the credit card company.
2 things:
1) He's asserting there's a chance tenebre gets a full refund regardless of what he does. Not sure if that's the reason, but it could explain some of his earlier actions and correspondence.
2) It's a little crazy how he sees the dispute process as being out of his hands. This is something he could settle today if he wanted to.
Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.
Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.
Fun. Wondering where the money actually lives now - with Paypal or your credit card issuer?
What do you think, is keeping this open worth the cost to his business, considering the amount of unfavorable attitudes it's generating in the community?
At the start of next week (I believe November 18th) the Paypal filing window will increase to 180 days for most transactions, similar to normal credit cards... so that may help in instances like this (in the future).
Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.
Fun. Wondering where the money actually lives now - with Paypal or your credit card issuer?
What do you think, is keeping this open worth the cost to his business, considering the amount of unfavorable attitudes it's generating in the community?
after 90-120 days depending on your bank they money is available in your account 100%
after 90-120 days depending on your bank they money is available in your account 100%
Stunning. If I understand that correctly, BTP could stop this all today with a phone call. They are choosing to drag it out, with the hope of... what exactly?
Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.
Fun. Wondering where the money actually lives now - with Paypal or your credit card issuer?
What do you think, is keeping this open worth the cost to his business, considering the amount of unfavorable attitudes it's generating in the community?
From a professional point of view, this should have been settled long ago as it's proceeded pretty much exactly as you might think it would. The work simply was not up to par, and the service dismally failed to keep the client's trust in putting errors right.
In terms of the fallout; a commission service lives and dies by the service it offers and the reputation it has - anyone looking at BTP is going to find this stuff now. I'd be gutted.
The damage to the reputation for quality is done. The damage to the reputation of service can get worse by being dragged to court; this could potentially lead to financial damage above and beyond the cost of the project - letting it get that far would be monumentally stupid. Not contesting the refund is now the only sensible option.
Ordinarily, a balls-up with a commission service can often by fixed by offering the client something better or a guarantee of a certain level of quality- I'm going through something similar now with the job I'm currently doing- the client booked this a long, long time ago, and I attempted to outsource the work. It didn't work out (twice, actually), so the client is now getting my full attention in putting the job out at a decent standard, irrespective of the time it takes me. This is all agreed with the client - and they're happy to wait for some stonking stuff to come back. And I'm happy because I'm not putting out my name attached to something I wouldn't be really happy with. That's important, too. I don't mind a reputation of being slow. I would mind a reputation of giving customers something below their expectations.
after 90-120 days depending on your bank they money is available in your account 100%
Stunning. If I understand that correctly, BTP could stop this all today with a phone call. They are choosing to drag it out, with the hope of... what exactly?
the hope i am guessing is BTP will retain all its money and the customer (me) will go away.
Just a heads-up Tenebre, FatherKnowsBest started a little thread over on the official Infinity Forums linking to here because BTP is an "official Infinity partner"(which irritated me to no end even before this nonsense happened).
Kanluwen wrote: Just a heads-up Tenebre, FatherKnowsBest started a little thread over on the official Infinity Forums linking to here because BTP is an "official Infinity partner"(which irritated me to no end even before this nonsense happened).
Feel free to come post.
Since i dont play infinity i feel wrong posting in that forum. but feel free to link them back to this thread. Although the gang seems to have their heads on pretty straight. BTW BTP fought the charge back with full force. So his post is very erroneous in tone. and no even with a full refund (which can not happen due to the age of the charge back) the matter is not settled simply because BTP did not resolve it willingly.
Kanluwen wrote: Just a heads-up Tenebre, FatherKnowsBest started a little thread over on the official Infinity Forums linking to here because BTP is an "official Infinity partner"(which irritated me to no end even before this nonsense happened).
Feel free to come post.
Since i dont play infinity i feel wrong posting in that forum. but feel free to link them back to this thread. Although the gang seems to have their heads on pretty straight. BTW BTP fought the charge back with full force. So his post is very erroneous in tone. and no even with a full refund (which can not happen due to the age of the charge back) the matter is not settled simply because BTP did not resolve it willingly.
FKB did link this thread. It might be advantageous to also link the warseer thread as that has more testimonial on it in reference to BTP.
I noticed the more recent MWG video supporting BTP has been removed. It was getting a ton of dislikes, I wonder if MWG removed it because they saw it was hurting MWG or if BTP requested that MWG remove it because it was hurting BTP.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I noticed the more recent MWG video supporting BTP has been removed. It was getting a ton of dislikes, I wonder if MWG removed it because they saw it was hurting MWG or if BTP requested that MWG remove it because it was hurting BTP.
Either way the damage was done since it was up for two days and talked about on all the forums.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.
Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.
Yep. With a CC the vendor gets 45 (business) days to refuse the chargeback, so expect it to take the full amount of time. You can then dispute it a second time, and at that point stuff actually starts to happen. While vendors could make this sort of thing go away immediately, using the system to their advantage they get to keep your money for an extra few months.
I understand that PayPal has recently changed their 45 days dispute limit to something longer, though I'm not 100% sure of the details.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.
What? Why? So he can now claim that tenebre's work was their "middle of the road" pricing instead of sub-GD level like before?
Even then, how does that change anything? Is level 6 still not good enough to get skulls, beards, teeth and nails painted? Or to cover primer, even? How much money do you have to pay them to have an entire figure actually painted? God damn.
That's shady as feth that he thinks he can just make up new levels like that and pretend like tenebre paid for lower quality than what was promised.
Anyway, on MWG (though it's probably off-topic at this point, I don't know), I thought Matt's viewpoint in his newest Sit and Talk video was pretty reasonable. I dunno. What I found more offensive was the new Warmachine League battle report that went up. I haven't watched any of the old ones but I was bored so I gave this one a shot...when I saw the first "Achievement Unlocked!" thing popped up I laughed about it thinking it was a corny joke, but no, they were serious. And barely 5 minutes into the video I see the first player on turn one start attacking his own models to get an achievement. I clicked "thumbs down" and quit watching promptly after that. That's probably the stupidest fething thing I've ever seen, not just achievement farming in a tabletop game but doing such asinine crap to get them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.
What? Why? So he can now claim that tenebre's work was their "middle of the road" pricing instead of sub-GD level like before?
Even then, how does that change anything? Is level 6 still not good enough to get skulls, beards, teeth and nails painted? Or to cover primer, even? How much money do you have to pay them to have an entire figure actually painted? God damn.
That's shady as feth that he thinks he can just make up new levels like that and pretend like tenebre paid for lower quality than what was promised.
Anyway, on MWG (though it's probably off-topic at this point, I don't know), I thought Matt's viewpoint in his newest Sit and Talk video was pretty reasonable. I dunno. What I found more offensive was the new Warmachine League battle report that went up. I haven't watched any of the old ones but I was bored so I gave this one a shot...when I saw the first "Achievement Unlocked!" thing popped up I laughed about it thinking it was a corny joke, but no, they were serious. And barely 5 minutes into the video I see the first player on turn one start attacking his own models to get an achievement. I clicked "thumbs down" and quit watching promptly after that. That's probably the stupidest fething thing I've ever seen, not just achievement farming in a tabletop game but doing such asinine crap to get them.
I think it is a ploy to make it seem like OP paid for middle of the road service. But I know he ripped the painting guide level so shawn won't be able to use that as his defense since it was done obviously after the controversy and waaaay after OP contracted them to paint the army.
Moving the goalposts now is, frankly, a twofold admission of a) guilt and b) not caring that he's guilty.
The delusional mindset capable of believing that attempted smoke and mirrors with these 'endorsements' and the old switcheroo with the painting standards, instead of just refunding the OP and doubling down on the quality of what leaves the business as product speaks volumes.
I strongly urge not a single reader of this to place your business with this man and this company in it's current condition.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The delusional mindset capable of believing that attempted smoke and mirrors with these 'endorsements' and the old switcheroo with the painting standards, instead of just refunding the OP and doubling down on the quality of what leaves the business as product speaks volumes.
I like that he mentioned something about debating whether or not they should just remove Level 2 as an option, because it just doesn't look good enough. It was like he was trying to imply that most of the models we've seen were either Level 2 commissions or that the customers just asked for really wacky stuff, and that's why there's so many bad-looking projects out there.
I think it is a ploy to make it seem like OP paid for middle of the road service. But I know he ripped the painting guide level so shawn won't be able to use that as his defense since it was done obviously after the controversy and waaaay after OP contracted them to paint the army.
He already tried saying this early on before he forgot to make his level video private and someone called him on it. i also have the correspondence where i specifically say i want showcase quality I have had messages from random people on saying basicaly "its you fault for ordering so low levels, you cant expect BT level 10 when you paid for 6" so his game works on some people.
I mean seriously.. out of a 10 scale? i wouldn't get anything less than and 8 ... and thats frankly too many levels anyway if you offer levels 2-6 then you have 1-5 scale. This isnt some universally recognized level system so it makes no sense to have arbitrary levels that you do not offer.
They used to state level 7 was golden daemon placing (they dont offer this but it is in their pricing guide) and the prices they want for level 7.. certainly are not 7/10 ....
i like scales: 1. tabletop horde , 2. tabletop elite, 3. character 4. special (one offs GD type stuff) thats all you need.
I think it is a ploy to make it seem like OP paid for middle of the road service. But I know he ripped the painting guide level so shawn won't be able to use that as his defense since it was done obviously after the controversy and waaaay after OP contracted them to paint the army.
He already tried saying this early on before he forgot to make his level video private and someone called him on it. i also have the correspondence where i specifically say i want showcase quality I have had messages from random people on saying basicaly "its you fault for ordering so low levels, you cant expect BT level 10 when you paid for 6" so his game works on some people.
I mean seriously.. out of a 10 scale? i wouldn't get anything less than and 8 ... and thats frankly too many levels anyway if you offer levels 2-6 then you have 1-5 scale. This isnt some universally recognized level system so it makes no sense to have arbitrary levels that you do not offer.
They used to state level 7 was golden daemon placing (they dont offer this but it is in their pricing guide) and the prices they want for level 7.. certainly are not 7/10 ....
i like scales: 1. tabletop horde , 2. tabletop elite, 3. character 4. special (one offs GD type stuff) thats all you need.
I'd say since you have those emails and the video stating the painting levels this was a pretty hair brained scheme even by shawn's standards
I present you with BTPs 10 levels of paint options!
Lvl1: We will smear a color of your choice* on your models.
Lvl2: We will basecoat your models black before smearing a color of your choice*
Lvl3: Not only will we base coat your model, but we'll let you pick 2 different colors* of choice!
Lvl4: Things are now interesting. We will basecoat your model, give you 3 colors of choice*, and we'll even attempt to paint within the lines!
Lvl5: We will basecoat, paint on 4-5 colors of your choice*, and paint specific parts of the model in specific colors.
Lvl6: As above, but we'll also dip your models!
Lvl7: As above, but you'll be entitled to 2 layers of dipping!
Lvl8: This is Table-top quality. Looks good from 3 ft away. 4-5 colors of choice on the areas of your choice and 2 layers of dipping. We'll even use the fine tip brushes to pick out some details too!
Lvl9: This is professional painting quality. One step below Golden Daemon.
Lvl10: Golden Daemon Winning paintjobs!
*Color of Your Choice: we reserve the right to alter colors without warning so as to maintain what we believe to be maximum cool factor.
I think it is a ploy to make it seem like OP paid for middle of the road service. But I know he ripped the painting guide level so shawn won't be able to use that as his defense since it was done obviously after the controversy and waaaay after OP contracted them to paint the army.
I don't think it's got anything to do with the legal claim; I suspect he knows he's lost that. It'll be so that he lie to any new customers that find the video on gogle about what was actually ordered "he asked for a level 4 and got it."
I wonder how he's going to deal with the confusion for any customers that are mid order or re-ordering?
Herzlos wrote: It'll be so that he lie to any new customers that find the video on gogle about what was actually ordered "he asked for a level 4 and got it."
That was my thinking as well, to confuse future customers about the levels so that tenebre's quality complaints don't hurt them as much.
So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.
There was quite a bit of implied victim blaming in there... that's just absolutely disgusting.
It's contemptible.
It's all just so sly. He refuses to set things right, he gets his buddies to try and boost his rep and now he's implying that ten's army was a lower 'scale' than it was, that many of their own works pictured are now of a lower scale than they actually were just days ago and that it was all ten's fault for making 'odd requests'...
This is just repulsive, scheming and downright underhand.
I just watched the video... are we sure they've changed their painting scales? They've always been vague about the higher level stuff because they've said the highest level they offer isn't actually supposed to be "the best", it's just the most they offer for sale.
Watching that video it didn't seem nearly as malicious as you guys are making out. I think they're just copping more flak recently for showcasing lower quality paint jobs and weird paint jobs (not just Tenebre's) so I can understand them wanting to clarify that they paint low quality stuff for people who want low quality stuff (level 2 is what he stated in the vid).
That's not the issue with Tenebre though, the issue is that he paid for a higher level than what he got.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I just watched the video... are we sure they've changed their painting scales? They've always been vague about the higher level stuff because they've said the highest level they offer isn't actually supposed to be "the best", it's just the most they offer for sale.
They solidified and clearly described, in a video now removed, a scale of 2-7, with 7 being a golden demon winning level, 6 being a phenomenally good paint job etc. If you move your scales from 2-7 to 2-10, you shunt the values of the levels down via adding scales to the equation.
The midpoint (mean and median) of 2-7 is 4.5, the midpoint of 2-10 is 6. The OP here paid for 4 through 6 on the old scale, which was mid range through to one short of golden demon winning... in the new range this is reduced to below average (4, now well below 6) to his display pieces being painted 6 (which is shunted down from just below golden demon to average).
It's quite disgusting and entirely sly.
Blue Table claimed, in the old video, Level 3 was tabletop, making anything above that 'premium'. Now level 6 is the new middle ground. It's really really angered me.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I just watched the video... are we sure they've changed their painting scales? They've always been vague about the higher level stuff because they've said the highest level they offer isn't actually supposed to be "the best", it's just the most they offer for sale.
They solidified and clearly described, in a video now removed, a scale of 2-7, with 7 being a golden demon winning level, 6 being a phenomenally good paint job etc. If you move your scales from 2-7 to 2-10, you shunt the values of the levels down via adding scales to the equation.
The midpoint (mean and median) of 2-7 is 4.5, the midpoint of 2-10 is 6. The OP here paid for 4 through 6 on the old scale, which was mid range through to one short of golden demon winning... in the new range this is reduced to below average (4, now well below 6) to his display pieces being painted 6 (which is shunted down from just below golden demon to average).
It's quite disgusting and entirely sly.
Are you sure on that? I seem to remember a document or spreadsheet back when Tenebre first posted his video with level info and could have sworn that it had more than 7 levels on it.
If someone has the older document that outlined levels I'd like to see that. Saying level 7 is golden demon winning and level 6 is one shy of golden demon is quite a claim that I think deserves to be confirmed if we're going to repeat it (when what I've seen of level 6's in their own showcase is no better than I can paint).
Now level 6 is the new middle ground. It's really really angered me.
It's all just so sly. He refuses to set things right, he gets his buddies to try and boost his rep and now he's implying that ten's army was a lower 'scale' than it was, that many of their own works pictured are now of a lower scale than they actually were just days ago and that it was all ten's fault for making 'odd requests'...
This is just repulsive, scheming and downright underhand.
Snake oil peddling. The man is a crook.
Well honestly I have never in my entire life been treated so bad by any merchant. I Followed the same process you do for a car (get another shop to quote repair work for botched job) I had 3. I then asked for the LOWEST of the 3 amounts as a refund to repair. and this is what happened.
I had a friend with a cabinet contractor who had serious issues. The company paid another company to redo the entire job. (this was after only 1 screw up) now this was about a $25k job, but thats how you maintain your business in the face of a mistake.
And he continues to publicly attack the customer, and provide misinformation.
Random, I almost went with YWPA on this but decided against it due to shipping cost and lack of ability to maintain contact. Boy was i wrong. (however before payment BTP answers emails super fast and returns phone calls)
Not in any way trying to defend them, I think what they did here has really shown the true colors of BTP. But I do remember a couple of years ago when I was still watching their videos that they used to grade models on a 1-10 scale, and that they did 2-6. I remember it because I thought it was weird that they would use a scale that had way higher levels than they did, so why not just call it 1-5?
@M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such. AFAIK this most certainly is a recent change, and it follows the current pattern of behaviour from BTP that we are seeing elsewhere quite closely.
I feel pretty bad for the OP and am glad that he found someone to redo his models, I was considering having BTP do work for me, and am glad I came upon this story and the many others who have come forward since. I wouldn't want BTP to work on my army, the trust isn't there.
Hexwolf wrote: @M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such. AFAIK this most certainly is a recent change, and it follows the current pattern of behaviour from BTP that we are seeing elsewhere quite closely.
I feel pretty bad for the OP and am glad that he found someone to redo his models, I was considering having BTP do work for me, and am glad I came upon this story and the many others who have come forward since. I wouldn't want BTP to work on my army, the trust isn't there.
I think honestly he is trying to justify his trust in sending all of his models, which are nicely converted and green stuffed as I could tell from the pictures, and 500 dollars to BTP right when this was breaking.
Hexwolf wrote: @M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such.
It cuts both ways, I'm sure I remember BTP referring to levels higher than 7 in the past, but BTP have taken down their levels videos and I can't find the spreadsheet I had from them previously... so... I'd like to see proof either way if someone has actually saved the video or spreadsheet.
They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.
6 is the highest level they do, and some of the level 6 items here are absolutely horrid. Ergo... their highest ability level is still worse than most commission painters, yet you pay a premium for it
RiTides wrote: They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.
It really seems the "7 is GD level" is something the community has made up rather than what Shawn has said. In that video he said 8 would be something to enter in to a competition and it might win some competitions (which I interpret as maybe winning some random local competition, not something that would win a golden demon).
I'm not trying to defend BTP but I'm just trying to keep things in perspective. BTP aren't a high end painting studio, they are a "we'll paint your whole army up quickly so you don't have to" studio and as far as I can see they aren't making any outlandish claims of producing golden demon winning standards. The only thing I can really accuse them of doing on that they fluff up level 6 to be something awesome when it's really only what I'd consider a high end table top standard. But even in that video linked above he says 7 is "display quality", not "zomg this is so awesome you'll wet your pants".
I just think we should stick to attacking BTP for things they deserve to be attacked for, like not giving Tenebre his moneys worth, not sticking to the agreement, going over time and not working with the customer when they've clearly screwed up.
RiTides wrote: 6 is the highest level they do, and some of the level 6 items here are absolutely horrid. Ergo... their highest ability level is still worse than most commission painters, yet you pay a premium for it
To be fair, the likes of winterdyne can and will paint you something far better than level 6 but will also charge you more to do it. I think Tenebre paid $250 for his level 6 bull monster thingy, that sounds like a lot, but that's like, what, 15 hours or less work? That's really not a lot to produce a high end work on a large model that will probably consume a few hours just to assemble. My Trygon which is hardly painted to a high standard took me about 20 hours from opening the box to finished model, I expect a pro to work faster than that but not a lot faster.
It really picks up around 6 minutes into the video. There he describes level 0-10.
Also, somehow Shawn seems more genuine in this older video than in the new ones. Less Cult leader more enthusiastic miniatures painter
So he says lvl 7 is display quality worthy of a book cover etc. So again... what are 8-10? like are they real? talk? actually fire lasers?
"display quality" has no dictionary definition as far as I'm aware so it's all just a subjective argument... but to me "display quality" would just be something I actually put on my display shelf vs something I just stick in my army cases. Something I'm happy for someone to look at closely, but it probably wouldn't stand up to high resolution photography (which tends to show up flaws more than the naked eye does).
Really high end stuff is the sort of stuff that you can take a good close up picture with a decent camera, zoom in to maybe 2 or 3 times and it still holds up well... I figure that's what they mean when they talk about being higher than "display quality".
It really picks up around 6 minutes into the video. There he describes level 0-10.
Also, somehow Shawn seems more genuine in this older video than in the new ones. Less Cult leader more enthusiastic miniatures painter
So he says lvl 7 is display quality worthy of a book cover etc. So again... what are 8-10? like are they real? talk? actually fire lasers?
No Idea! Like I said, I'm not supporting them in this case, I think they have treated you basically as bad as possible without doing outright stealing. I just wanted the facts about this flawed level system out there.
Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.
RiTides wrote: They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.
It really seems the "7 is GD level" is something the community has made up rather than what Shawn has said. In that video he said 8 would be something to enter in to a competition and it might win some competitions (which I interpret as maybe winning some random local competition, not something that would win a golden demon).
The video in that link is far older than the recently deleted one.
In that video, Shawn stated a 2-7 scale, with 7 as a Golden Demon level. That was his clearly displayed and widely promoted 'guide to painting levels'.
This far older video does not marry with the scaling used in the more recent one.
Well if the purpose of changing the levels was to fog up the issue at hand then they've done it. Well done everyone.
It doesn't matter what changes have been made after the events in question. The relevant information is that tenebre paid for the level 4 and 6 standards and the work he received was well below the examples given. The contracted service was not paid for. That's it.
RiTides wrote:Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.
Oh I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread I'm just saying lets not go overboard comparing BTP's levels to the high end commission painters on Dakka who can paint significantly better.... and charge significantly more. I'm just saying we need to keep the comparisons realistic.
RiTides wrote: They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.
It really seems the "7 is GD level" is something the community has made up rather than what Shawn has said. In that video he said 8 would be something to enter in to a competition and it might win some competitions (which I interpret as maybe winning some random local competition, not something that would win a golden demon).
The video in that link is far older than the recently deleted one.
In that video, Shawn stated a 2-7 scale, with 7 as a Golden Demon level. That was his clearly displayed and widely promoted 'guide to painting levels'.
This far older video does not marry with the scaling used in the more recent one.
Ok, but I don't think we can actually go too in depth with such an analysis without actually having the video you're talking about on hand. A lot can be gained and lost in how something is worded... I'd like to actually hear/see/read proof that what Shawn explicitly stated that it was a 2-7 scale and 7 being Golden Demon level.
It's not that I don't believe you think that's what he said.... it's that I always choose to give people the benefit of the doubt in absence of actual evidence. I want to know that Shawn said "7 is Golden Demon level", not "above 6 you start getting in to Golden Demon" or "you might consider entering level 7 in to a painting competition". I'm not even sure Shawn is crazy enough to make a statement like the level 6 they are offering is only 1 step shy of Golden Demon.
It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.
Hexwolf wrote: @M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such. AFAIK this most certainly is a recent change, and it follows the current pattern of behaviour from BTP that we are seeing elsewhere quite closely.
I feel pretty bad for the OP and am glad that he found someone to redo his models, I was considering having BTP do work for me, and am glad I came upon this story and the many others who have come forward since. I wouldn't want BTP to work on my army, the trust isn't there.
I think honestly he is trying to justify his trust in sending all of his models, which are nicely converted and green stuffed as I could tell from the pictures, and 500 dollars to BTP right when this was breaking.
Here is that proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gkXVuUz4E I see it has already been posted earlier, but this video is 3 years old, not what I would call a recent change...
Also I am certainly not trying to justify sending my models also I decided on BTP after what happened to Tenebre. The only reason I even posted in this thread again is because you were all starting to hate on BTP again for something you all misunderstood (that they had changed their scale to 1-10). I just wanted to set the facts straight here and enlightend you all that you were hating on something you all mistook.
Hexwolf wrote: @M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such. AFAIK this most certainly is a recent change, and it follows the current pattern of behaviour from BTP that we are seeing elsewhere quite closely.
I feel pretty bad for the OP and am glad that he found someone to redo his models, I was considering having BTP do work for me, and am glad I came upon this story and the many others who have come forward since. I wouldn't want BTP to work on my army, the trust isn't there.
I think honestly he is trying to justify his trust in sending all of his models, which are nicely converted and green stuffed as I could tell from the pictures, and 500 dollars to BTP right when this was breaking.
Here is that proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gkXVuUz4E I see it has already been posted earlier, but this video is 3 years old, not what I would call a recent change...
Also I am certainly not trying to justify sending my models also I decided on BTP after what happened to Tenebre. The only reason I even posted in this thread again is because you were all starting to hate on BTP again for something you all misunderstood (that they had changed their scale to 1-10). I just wanted to set the facts straight here and enlightend you all that you were hating on something you all mistook.
That is an old video... It was not the most recent (and recently deleted) video...
Regardless of whether or not BTP changed their scale with old videos or recent videos, the telling point about the Painting Levels Explained V 1.1 is that at the 6 minute mark he says that levels 5 and 6 are for heroes, in which you can pick them up and give them a 360 degree turn. Tenebre did just that in his video and well, it was very obvious to see that after the scrutiny of a basic 360 degree turn we saw primer showing, details not being painted, terrible OSL that I could do (trust me it's not a compliment), and just all around lack of quality on the models.
Not to mention that Shaun said that they rarely do levels 7 or higher, that their portfolio was very thin at those levels and that they might have 1 level 7 or higher paintjob. Which means that 6 is still the highest that his studio can produce. It's the highest quality available and Tenebre was certainly charged for an extremely well painted army and received what can only be perceived as utter crap... but that's just me.
It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.
Actually, I think tenebre himself has the original video saved - which in my eyes is going to be some pretty damning evidence.
It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.
Actually, I think tenebre himself has the original video saved - which in my eyes is going to be some pretty damning evidence.
Oh well that's good if he does. I would love to see it though I doubt tenebre is going to want to share it with the legal proceedings going on.
RiTides wrote:Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.
Oh I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread I'm just saying lets not go overboard comparing BTP's levels to the high end commission painters on Dakka who can paint significantly better.... and charge significantly more. I'm just saying we need to keep the comparisons realistic.
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So level 5-6 shouldn't have at the very least all the primer covered?
RiTides wrote:Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.
Oh I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread I'm just saying lets not go overboard comparing BTP's levels to the high end commission painters on Dakka who can paint significantly better.... and charge significantly more. I'm just saying we need to keep the comparisons realistic.
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So level 5-6 shouldn't have at the very least all the primer covered?
Let me just restate this....
I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread
As for whether primer should be covered, that depends on the specific context and whether or not they advertised as such. In Tenebre's case, the exposed primer is showing a lack of attention to detail more than anything. But primer after it's been washed and varnished can potentially be fine depending on the circumstances.
RiTides wrote:Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.
Oh I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread I'm just saying lets not go overboard comparing BTP's levels to the high end commission painters on Dakka who can paint significantly better.... and charge significantly more. I'm just saying we need to keep the comparisons realistic.
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So level 5-6 shouldn't have at the very least all the primer covered?
Let me just restate this....
I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread
As for whether primer should be covered, that depends on the specific context and whether or not they advertised as such. In Tenebre's case, the exposed primer is showing a lack of attention to detail more than anything. But primer after it's been washed and varnished can potentially be fine depending on the circumstances.
Let me rephrase... Do you think the L6 Bull was painted to L6 even by BTP new level guide. As we know it wasn't painted to L6 by the video taking down.
Noir wrote: Let me rephrase... Do you think the L6 Bull was painted to L6 even by BTP new level guide. As we know it wasn't painted to L6 by the video taking down.
No, I don't... I never said I did... I've stated several times in this thread that I thought Tenebre got short changed on the level he paid for... that's not remotely what I was talking about though. I was just pointing out that a comparison saying they do worse than most commission painters and charge a premium for it is not a realistic comparison.
RiTides wrote: They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.
It really seems the "7 is GD level" is something the community has made up rather than what Shawn has said. In that video he said 8 would be something to enter in to a competition and it might win some competitions (which I interpret as maybe winning some random local competition, not something that would win a golden demon).
The video in that link is far older than the recently deleted one.
In that video, Shawn stated a 2-7 scale, with 7 as a Golden Demon level. That was his clearly displayed and widely promoted 'guide to painting levels'.
This far older video does not marry with the scaling used in the more recent one.
Exactly. I think we all actually agree on the main point, so no need to continue discussing this tangent this when both are true really. Some of us are referring to this recent video, some the older, but the underlying obvious truth is they did not paint it to the standard they said they would, or really anything close to how they describe that standard (and were contracted to complete the army to it).
plastictrees wrote: Is there a level in their current stated system that would leave primer with no basecoat on a model?
Lol. Yeah, like I said I think we're all agreed there!!
I really do feel for you Tenebre, I am astounded that they are not pulling out all the stops to sort you out and make sure that you are a happy customer.
It really does not cut it, that bs about them having so may thousands of happy customers, any business worth its salt goes out of its way to make sure that every single one is happy with his experience, that is if they want to continue going forward.
Its obvious from the embarrassing videos that they really think they are in the right, and that's not even the point, makes me sad, I hope you get it sorted out, that redone bull centaur looks bang on, hope someone can rescue the rest for you man.
In the video I saw, Shawn said a level six would pass scrutiny at 9" away (and somehow, humans can't focus closer then that, so better paint jobs wouldn't matter, his explanation, not mine). Also, every detail would be picked out.
Level 7: A model that wouldn't win, but would be in the finalist selection at Golden Daemon.
Level 8: A model you would find in a gaming companies published material (so Angel Giraldez or the equiv).
Level 9: No idea, I guess painted by an AI that was designed to recursively improve its skill at painting until it transcended humanities understanding.
Level 10: Painted by aforementioned AI, but all the paints are blended in with the divine ichor of mighty Zeus.
I think the details of the levels are confusing the fact that most of us agree that BTP did not meet their stated standards.
The second point that I think most of us can agree on is that Shawn is trying to obfuscate the details of that failure by fiddling around with BTPs levels.
if BTP would have said something like, "We do basic tabletop work, and here is the price per mini by size.", there would be a lot less confusion, and Tenebre would have known what to expect for his money...
instead they over-complicate matters, and even worse, seem to say you get what you get regardless of level, and then they are on to the next thing they can churn out...
so in the end, there is no point in defining levels anyway!!!
the worst part is, he turned over a huge amount of money, and was not even giving the chance to work with his painter to bring the vision of the army to fruition...
that, to me, is the big issue here...
you pay for a huge army, with a distinct vision laid out in reference material, and then this painting SERVICE (the key word here) just says,"Meh, you get what you get, regardless of what you want, and you will pay us for the pleasure."
that is the crime, and sure isn't proper service...
i hope this case is clear cut enough for a judge, so Tenebre can get some kind of settlement, and that BTP will possibly get it's act together, do there basic style of work, and not try to be more than they are as a service...
It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.
Actually, I think tenebre himself has the original video saved - which in my eyes is going to be some pretty damning evidence.
Oh well that's good if he does. I would love to see it though I doubt tenebre is going to want to share it with the legal proceedings going on.
It was ripped from youtube prior to being removed. its not my IP therefore i can not share it legally with anyone outside a court. So I hope you understand.
It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.
Actually, I think tenebre himself has the original video saved - which in my eyes is going to be some pretty damning evidence.
Oh well that's good if he does. I would love to see it though I doubt tenebre is going to want to share it with the legal proceedings going on.
It was ripped from youtube prior to being removed. its not my IP therefore i can not share it legally with anyone outside a court. So I hope you understand.
As long as you have it. That's all that matters at this point.
i would just like too say that this community rocks rallying behind tenebre and tenebre thank you for bringing this too light and saving folks from possibly having too have the same problem hope it all works out for you in the end because i want too see a banging chaos dwarf army look the way it should (and from the side by side looks like its well underway of just that ) \m/ \m/ i give the touch ups a 4 horns up and looking forward too seeing it all done and proper !
1) I applaud the dakka community for keeping this thread fresh, and running up at the top of the page list. If you are wondering what you can do to help bring attention to this issue, its talk about it, share the thread, and keep it updated and current and easily found. Keep posting on it! I applaud the Dakka MODS for allowing this thread, and keeping it civil, and allowing it to remain open and running for the world to see. That is one way that we can help tenebre - is by not letting this issue die away and get lost in the thread archives where no one will see it. This is EXACTLY what BTP wants. THey want this issue to just quietly go away, and the thread to go away so they can get back to ripping people off with their shoddy business practices. We can help to prevent that by sharing this thread, and keeping this thread up at the forefront of discussion
2) I have read almost every single thing i can find about this issue on the various forums, heres what i have learned about BTP and the individual who runs it:
- I am absolutely awestruck and amazed at how devoid of any sense of ethics or personal responsibility Shawn Gately is. He is a very good example of how NOT to run a small business.
- Even after the absolute pounding his companys reputation has taken, he just continues right on his merry way like a true snake oil salesman - its almost like he didnt even miss a beat. He arrogantly defied any appearance of remorse or responsibility - in fact, id say he is probably laughing at all of you. He laughed all the way to the bank with Tenebres 8,000 dollars while delivering a product that even a rank amateur would be ashamed of. Its more of the ole bait and switch shenanegins lately too with him taking down the levels video - if you cant see that this is related to the chaos dwarves debacle then you are just fooling yourself. Remember, this is a man who contacted a government official to lower the minimum work age so he could have his OWN CHILDREN to come work in his sweat shop painting studio. The more you read about him, the more disgusting and unethical it gets. This person suffers from delusions of grandeur and you can see it in his crazy cult-leader eyes as he randomly drifts through his many daily videos of pipe dreams and day dreams about "valhalla" and "shawn land" and a gaming paradise that would rival the land of "rivendale". WTF
3) MWG - You disgust me. You cant even possibly defend your actions - how dare you shill this snake oil con-man to innocent victims on youtube. Are you hoping there will be more victims like Tenebre? Are you an accomplice to this scheme? Sure seem likes it. Were you just completely unaware that the gaming community thinks BTP are about as trust worthy as jack the ripper? I Hope whatever freebie or painted miniature, or valhalla ticket you got out of it was worth throwing your sites reputation into the garbage dumpster. ANother really textbook example of exactly how not to run a small business.
4) Apparently, both of these sites BTP and MWG have a penchant for deleting youtube videos when it does not favor their business. There is a way to save youtube videos as evidence, if you just go to the web address and type "ss" right in front of youtube (so it would read http://www.ssyoutube.com/abcsbcetc....) it takes you to a download page where you can save the video to your hard drive. Believe me if BTP could find a way to hack into your computer to delete the evidence, im sure they would.
jah-joshua wrote: if BTP would have said something like, "We do basic tabletop work, and here is the price per mini by size.", there would be a lot less confusion, and Tenebre would have known what to expect for his money...
Honestly what he got wasn't even basic table top quality. It was completely devoid of even basic detailing. Shoddy OSL doesn't make it even passingly acceptable as TT standard.
jah-joshua wrote: if BTP would have said something like, "We do basic tabletop work, and here is the price per mini by size.", there would be a lot less confusion, and Tenebre would have known what to expect for his money...
Honestly what he got wasn't even basic table top quality. It was completely devoid of even basic detailing. Shoddy OSL doesn't make it even passingly acceptable as TT standard.
This.
I can paint tabletop, and tabletop starts with a full basecoat (covering all primer), all details painted in contrasting colors, with highlight and shade for all surfaces.
Showing primer and failing to pick out obvious details means the model does not meet basic tabletop standards.
Maybe not highlights. But at the very least a basecoat followed by a neat coat of the various colors, and then a simple wash to give some basic shading. That would be table top quality for me.
If I were to have a painting service of my own, I'd have 3 levels.
Basic Table Top: Basecoat, colors painted neatly(all details picked out), and a single wash.
Average quality: Simple freehand work, basic highlights and washes. Decals if provided. Models would be sealed with a clear coat.
High Quality: custom paint mixing, freehand work, decals if provided, multiple levels of highlights and shading as well as washes. Sealed with clear coat.
Horrible experience for the OP. I've been following BTP in youtube for about 3 years now and always thought about having them paint a few of my models. After seeing the shoddy workmanship that they did, I'll continue to paint my own miniatures.
After this sly move, I don't pity any of the bad press they are getting. (To a degree I had hoped Shawn would outright stop the shenanigans and refund Ten in full but, I'm pretty sure everyone who watched this thread knew that he was sliding down a slippery slope.)
Anyways, I hope BTP gets taken to the cleaners. I can only imagine how horrible this is for Ten.
Oh and I feel kinda stupid for asking this but, I'm curious. Now I'm not versed in law stuffs but, wouldn't them doing this switcheroo with the videos be classed as outright fraud? (Hopefully one of the lawyer types that floats around here on dakka can answer that, though I hope that it isn't a dumb question.)
Oh and I feel kinda stupid for asking this but, I'm curious. Now I'm not versed in law stuffs but, wouldn't them doing this switcheroo with the videos be classed as outright fraud? (Hopefully one of the lawyer types that floats around here on dakka can answer that, though I hope that it isn't a dumb question.)
Yep. They are based in Utah and there are statues about advanced fee fraud on the books there. It's not the same as Texas, which I am familiar with, but it's something.
Basically, AFF means, if you take money up front to do a job, there can be criminal charges brought against you if you don't do it. In Texas, they are very serious about this and you can get jail time, forfeit your assets, and the like. I don't know the details of the law in Utah (just that it exists) but I will know on Monday.
I figure the moment some criminal charge comes up, Shawn releases that chargeback. This is not Mandelbaum petty ante stuff, this is serious cash for a job not done and possibly wire fraud. I am pretty sure someone could take the case to a DA and get a cop to investigate.
Oh and I feel kinda stupid for asking this but, I'm curious. Now I'm not versed in law stuffs but, wouldn't them doing this switcheroo with the videos be classed as outright fraud? (Hopefully one of the lawyer types that floats around here on dakka can answer that, though I hope that it isn't a dumb question.)
Yep. They are based in Utah and there are statues about advanced fee fraud on the books there. It's not the same as Texas, which I am familiar with, but it's something.
Basically, AFF means, if you take money up front to do a job, there can be criminal charges brought against you if you don't do it. In Texas, they are very serious about this and you can get jail time, forfeit your assets, and the like. I don't know the details of the law in Utah (just that it exists) but I will know on Monday.
I figure the moment some criminal charge comes up, Shawn releases that chargeback. This is not Mandelbaum petty ante stuff, this is serious cash for a job not done and possibly wire fraud. I am pretty sure someone could take the case to a DA and get a cop to investigate.
I thought so but, I wasn't really sure. Judging from just the cost of the job done plus the models, this is probably more than a Small Claims court case too. Anyways, thank you for answering my question in a respectful way.
I dunno. Spray the base color, base paint the details, quick drybrush the textured bits (e.g. hair / fur / chainmail), and wash -- that's tabletop to me.
The problem with terms like "table top" and "display quality" is they actually have no meaning They mean different things to different people and are very changeable terms.
The only thing that really matters is sample images and to a lesser extent descriptions.
Level 5- Impressive Hero Standard
Wow effects around focal points
No Slops
5 levels of highlight/shading
So does that mean levels 4 and below HAVE slops?
And by slops do they mean for example brown belt paint hitting a blue tunic behind it?
Because if so then WOW! Just WOW, this is a professional painting service that cannot colour in between the lines until you go for the higher levels? ALL PAINT SHOULD BE ON WHERE IT SHOULD BE!!!! It's not rocket science
Hey Hey Blue Table Fans... My 5 year old can colour between the lines
Oh and another thing whilst I'm on my soap box Shawn if you're reading this... "Wow effects around focal points" and "Wow effects on multiple fields" are meant to mean... "Wow look at that, that's so cool" not "Wow I can't believe they missed out painting a skull on a level 6 model, that's supposed to have, Wow effects on multiple fields, Free hand possible, Object source lighting, Dynamic basing, 6 levels of highlight/shadow"
Flippa wrote: So just read the level guide and found this....
Level 5- Impressive Hero Standard
Wow effects around focal points
No Slops
5 levels of highlight/shading
So does that mean levels 4 and below HAVE slops?
And by slops do they mean for example brown belt paint hitting a blue tunic behind it?
Because if so then WOW! Just WOW, this is a professional painting service that cannot colour in between the lines until you go for the higher levels? ALL PAINT SHOULD BE ON WHERE IT SHOULD BE!!!! It's not rocket science
Hey Hey Blue Table Fans... My 5 year old can colour between the lines
Oh and another thing whilst I'm on my soap box Shawn if you're reading this... "Wow effects around focal points" and "Wow effects on multiple fields" are meant to mean... "Wow look at that, that's so cool" not "Wow I can't believe they missed out painting a skull on a level 6 model, that's supposed to have, Wow effects on multiple fields, Free hand possible, Object source lighting, Dynamic basing, 6 levels of highlight/shadow"
saved. Notice even level 3 says all details picked out. Hence i did not even get level 3.
tenebre wrote: saved. Notice even level 3 says all details picked out. Hence i did not even get level 3.
Actually it says "essential details picked out" for level 3. Goodness knows what "essential" means. Level 4 says "all details picked out" and "4 levels of highlight/shadow", so you definitely didn't get a level 4 that you paid for.
tenebre wrote: saved. Notice even level 3 says all details picked out. Hence i did not even get level 3.
Actually it says "essential details picked out" for level 3. Goodness knows what "essential" means. Level 4 says "all details picked out" and "4 levels of highlight/shadow", so you definitely didn't get a level 4 that you paid for.
Eyes, mouth, teeth? haha those have to be considered essential right??????
tenebre wrote: saved. Notice even level 3 says all details picked out. Hence i did not even get level 3.
Actually it says "essential details picked out" for level 3. Goodness knows what "essential" means. Level 4 says "all details picked out" and "4 levels of highlight/shadow", so you definitely didn't get a level 4 that you paid for.
Eyes, mouth, teeth? haha those have to be considered essential right??????
This is why descriptions need to be a bit more detailed and/or accompanied by lots of pics. I don't consider eyes essential for your average 28mm infantry model, I consider eyes to be a luxury for models I intend to spend a bit of extra time painting. For a 28mm monster though, yeah, I consider eyes essential.
Though on that page, it's hard to see but if you zoom in on the level 3 elves, you can see their eyes ARE painted (though I can't tell if they're painted well or not, I just zoomed the picture using GIMP and can see there's clearly another colour where the eyes should be).
So I'd save those images on that page in case BTP decides to pull it. Unfortunately they're small which makes it hard to pick out details, but you could use it in court to show that level 3 models have their eyes painted in BTP's own advertising.
tenebre wrote: saved. Notice even level 3 says all details picked out. Hence i did not even get level 3.
Actually it says "essential details picked out" for level 3. Goodness knows what "essential" means. Level 4 says "all details picked out" and "4 levels of highlight/shadow", so you definitely didn't get a level 4 that you paid for.
Eyes, mouth, teeth? haha those have to be considered essential right??????
This is why descriptions need to be a bit more detailed and/or accompanied by lots of pics. I don't consider eyes essential for your average 28mm infantry model, I consider eyes to be a luxury for models I intend to spend a bit of extra time painting. For a 28mm monster though, yeah, I consider eyes essential.
Though on that page, it's hard to see but if you zoom in on the level 3 elves, you can see their eyes ARE painted (though I can't tell if they're painted well or not, I just zoomed the picture using GIMP and can see there's clearly another colour where the eyes should be).
So I'd save those images on that page in case BTP decides to pull it. Unfortunately they're small which makes it hard to pick out details, but you could use it in court to show that level 3 models have their eyes painted in BTP's own advertising.
i disagree 100% even at level 2, or lowest tabletop standard, i would expect a skeleton to have black holes for eyes while his skull in bone color. Whereas on my level 4+ entire upper part of model was all one color,
In regards to the scale, i quite honestly don't find those 1 to 10 or 1 to what ever scales all that useful. They don't objectively describe what is to be done with the miniatures.
As a potential client i would much rather be charged by Technics/effects employed.
Say dry brushing, hard edging, washes, blending, inking, recessing, freehanding. and so on.
That SW Dread is level 6?! There is decal shine on the right (our left) shoulder pad FFS. 0/10, would not purge with.
Can people still see the pictures here? I know I can't.
Not sure if this has been posted. Project was meant to cover lvl 3 to 5.
Very apt youtube comment.
MrMalorian3 days ago
One of the best things that has come from these BTG videos is the realization of the VERY simple techniques they use. With that in mind it really begs the question of "Why aren't you doing this yourself?"
Anyone can prime and drybrush, and in spending a weekend on it you save yourself thousands of dollars.
Or indeed painting within the lines of the models... No commission painter should ever have paint slops. Nor should they ever treat this as a bonus feature.
It's totally weird for me cause Im always painting eyes on minis even on base standard miniatures. If you know how to do that vry good and you have a lot of experience it's rly easy and shouldn't take more than 1-2 minutes to do that perfect. Talking that you need more time to do that is bullsheeet.
Reason why I'm doing that with my people is that we know that miniature face and base is smth around 80% of minis overlook. If you're doing it right then whole miniature looks way more better just cause of this little parts. Of course at higher standard of painting you can spend more time on face and eyes making more reflex in eye using different colours not only white and black. Another reason is that that I want to make my client happy and hope he'll come back later with more miniatures. It's normal for company. If I need do smth well for my client happiness its worth a lot more than only few pennys.
Cheers
I like how in this video Shawn says "I'm not gonna show you the stuff thats in progress". Would that not mean that he is showing finished works by the artists?
I would recommend riping this vid as well Tenebre.
I actually had to grit my teeth there when they're talking about how much time they've been taking and they show that Bull Centaur. It's particularly bad after we've seen it fixed by Ten himself and it looks infinitely better.
How those two actually had the cheek to say they were doing good work is beyond me.
I take it the possibility of BTP not being able to pay back Ten has been raised? Perhaps they're in dire times.
Medium of Death wrote: I actually had to grit my teeth there when they're talking about how much time they've been taking and they show that Bull Centaur. It's particularly bad after we've seen it fixed by Ten himself and it looks infinitely better.
How those two actually had the cheek to say they were doing good work is beyond me.
I take it the possibility of BTP not being able to pay back Ten has been raised? Perhaps they're in dire times.
I was a fan of where the artist said they were up till 3AM working on the project and that it wasn't "rushing it" because "the quality is going to be there." This happens at like the 45 second mark... we all know that obviously the quality is not there...
Just got this email from MWG.
"Hey Vault Member!
I'm going to be making a video endorsing BlueTablePainting in the next couple of weeks, as they have done some fantastic work for us (and many, many others).
I'd love to include some testimonials and case studies from MiniWarGaming Vault members who have used BTP in the past.
If you have used BTP, and have had a good experience with them, please email your experience to matthew@miniwargaming.com.
I realize that some people may have had bad experiences (they do a LOT of jobs every month, so obviously there will be customers who wouldn't be happy with their work), but we're only really interested in the positive experiences for this video.
Please understand that we will only be endorsing them because we fully believe that they are a good company worth giving your business to (if you use painting commission studios).
Thanks!
Matthew (and Dave)"
I'm constantly surprised by how much sucking up there is in the Youtube comments for BTP. It's confusing. Models are bad, but comments seem to be good? I don't get it.
winterdyne wrote: I'm constantly surprised by how much sucking up there is in the Youtube comments for BTP. It's confusing. Models are bad, but comments seem to be good? I don't get it.
Comments get deleted. People have reported this first-hand.
Just got this email from MWG.
"Hey Vault Member!
I'm going to be making a video endorsing BlueTablePainting in the next couple of weeks, as they have done some fantastic work for us (and many, many others).
I'd love to include some testimonials and case studies from MiniWarGaming Vault members who have used BTP in the past.
If you have used BTP, and have had a good experience with them, please email your experience to matthew@miniwargaming.com.
I realize that some people may have had bad experiences (they do a LOT of jobs every month, so obviously there will be customers who wouldn't be happy with their work), but we're only really interested in the positive experiences for this video.
Please understand that we will only be endorsing them because we fully believe that they are a good company worth giving your business to (if you use painting commission studios).
Thanks!
Matthew (and Dave)"
looks tottaly unproffesional and odd....
cheers
That's been covered buddy. MWG followed that with a video showcasing BTP's "talents"
Said video has since been removed.
I like how in this video Shawn says "I'm not gonna show you the stuff thats in progress". Would that not mean that he is showing finished works by the artists?
I would recommend riping this vid as well Tenebre.
The main emphasis they are talking about for all the work was the OSL effect which OP didn't even request. I don't understand the reasoning behind BTP's decisions. It's mind boggling.
Ramos Asura wrote: nope. afaik he requested "more gore than a saw movie" which he, of course, did not receive.
I believe Tenebre said in his video that he did buy lava bases (they are one of the few options for bases BTP offer). But that doesnt mean they should cover all of the models in OSL for sure.
There doesn't seem to be any effort made to make them not look like just chunks of cork stuck on plastic. As for the "lava", lol. Yeah, that horrid OSL just emphasizes the corkiness. It really demonstrates the absolute lack of effort and quality control put into this project.
tenebre wrote: i disagree 100% even at level 2, or lowest tabletop standard, i would expect a skeleton to have black holes for eyes while his skull in bone color. Whereas on my level 4+ entire upper part of model was all one color,
Oh if we're talking about a skeleton that's a different matter. Eye sockets on a skeleton are huge compared to eyes on a living 28mm human. You can paint the eye sockets in about 5 seconds per model, painting actual eyes is more time consuming and less noticeable. The only reason you wouldn't is if you washed the skull a dark brown and that was sufficient to darken the socket (since there is typically bone in the socket, it's not just a black hole, simply being a darker colour is fine).
YourWellPaintedArmyCom wrote: It's totally weird for me cause Im always painting eyes on minis even on base standard miniatures. If you know how to do that vry good and you have a lot of experience it's rly easy and shouldn't take more than 1-2 minutes to do that perfect. Talking that you need more time to do that is bullsheeet. Reason why I'm doing that with my people is that we know that miniature face and base is smth around 80% of minis overlook. If you're doing it right then whole miniature looks way more better just cause of this little parts. Of course at higher standard of painting you can spend more time on face and eyes making more reflex in eye using different colours not only white and black. Another reason is that that I want to make my client happy and hope he'll come back later with more miniatures. It's normal for company. If I need do smth well for my client happiness its worth a lot more than only few pennys. Cheers
I'm guessing your base standard is still well beyond BTP's level 4.
"Essential detail", to me, is all about context. If I have 100 guardsmen on the table and each one took me less than 30 minutes to paint... eyes are not an essential detail. You barely even see them from regular table top distances.
If I'm painting a character that I intend to be viewed close up or a monster that actually has quite large eyes, yep, I consider eyes essential.
For the 30 minute guardsmen, painting the eyes would actually increase the time it takes me to paint them considerably, because I find it quite difficult to paint the eyes when I'm speed painting the rest of the face, especially if I don't want them looking boss-eyed (which IMO looks worse than not painting them at all).
But my point was basically to stick to arguing things that aren't subjective. "Essential detail" as given for level 3 is a subjective term. "All detail" as given for a level 4 is not subjective. That's why I said save the picture of the high elves painted at level 3, as that gives you some evidence of what BTP interpret as meaning "essential detail".
To say eyes are a subjective "essential" detail is a stretch, to me, but again irrelevant since everything here was level 4 or level 6... their highest offered paint level.
It's relevant because it was brought up that he didn't get a 3 because all details weren't picked out and then I pointed out they said "essential details" not "all details", the former of which is subjective.
You might call it "a stretch", but to me it entirely depends on what the model is, how much time you are spending on them and how far away you expect to view them from. Many models you can't even see the eyes when you're looking down on them in a gaming situation. Other models, like Orcs/Orks, the eyes really stand out.
"essential detail" by itself is a rather meaningless term. You could just argue the models aren't intended to be viewed from less than 24" and thus almost none of the details are essential.
(I agree that Tenebre didn't even get a level 3, I'm just trying to stick separate things that are objectively demonstrable vs things that BTP could argue and call subjective when questioned by a judge )
techsoldaten wrote: I don't want to burst everyone's bubbles here, but BTP did not change their scale to chisel tenebre out of his money.
They changed the scale to 10 because some of their work goes to 11.
Its true, I counted while the miniwargaming vid was up and there where eleven(!) colours uses in that tau army. In fact there might have even been twelve.
I will second Karnophage here. As tempting as it is, the people on the BTP live show on MWG are not crucial in relation to this whole incident. We should focus on those responsible, not some people doing a painting and gaming podcast.
I'm going to throw in my two cents, though it's short and general. I think the incident was bad, but could have easily been fixed. BTP's reaction to the entire debacle has spiralled the situation out of control to an unsavable place. All the best Tenebre, hope something gets sorted out in your favour
heya folks i just want too clear something up i posted the link too the live show thats ALL! watch dont watch it said nothing of trolling or harassing them ..i have watched the show before the indecent posted in this thread and jhon is a pretty good painter and steve not sure what he dose ..but ok show ..i think the real point here is tenebre got a bad service and the company needs too know that you don't gak where you eat ! bottom line
flabluker wrote: on MWG site under live shows ...... Blue Table Painting Live
Wed, Nov 19, 3:00 PM Eastern ...just sayin
Please don't troll those guys. They are not a cheering section for BTP. They are more of a Warhammer, 40K, and Warmahordes podcast.
So following two youtube videos endorsing Blue Table with snide reference to 'the few who complain', since this thread was posted, and now this 'live show' (which left me with the disturbing visual of neon signs and 'Hey Hey Gately' gyrating around a pole like Alan Partridge's dream sequences...), you really think they're not on the sideline with pompoms and happy dances? Because it's clear as day to me that that's just what MWG have been doing since this came to light, 100% crony endorsement.
'Oh we do videos for all our advertisers'... Pull the other one mate, it's got bells on. The timings, the slanted feedback requests, the freebies and mutual back rubs...
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
Seriously, MWG have entirely come out as partisan in this matter and are using their influence and audience to try and dismiss this entirely legitimate complaint and the outcry over the treatment of the OP. Claims they are anything other than 100% promoting and 100% in the pocket of Blue Table are laughable.
Reality-Torrent wrote: Is it just me or does the level level 3 look ALLOT better and has ALLOT more detail then OP's level 6s?
It isn't just you. It was my immediate thought upon seeing them, too. I also noticed that I couldn't see any real improvements in quality as the "levels" went up. Then there are things like one level stating that the models will be "clean", and then a higher level stating that the models with have "no slops"... so, a model can have slops yet also be considered clean? What?
This just furthers the point that BTP's whole "levels" system is a bunch of crap.
That SW Dread is level 6?! There is decal shine on the right (our left) shoulder pad FFS. 0/10, would not purge with.
Also notice that the barrels from both the SW dread and the DA squad aren't drilled/ not drilled properly
Is it just me or does the level level 3 look ALLOT better and has ALLOT more detail then OP's level 6s?
Yeah, the examples are of course, better than the product you are liable to receive.
But $100 USD for the bull centaurs, which were level 6, and had basically NO details picked out. That wasn't level 3 for such a large model. Hair and skulls etc, could have been picked out, even if the quality of their painting was lower, at tier 3. Tier 6, the maximum tier, which has 6 levels of shading, it's inexcusable.
This is called a Random Snippet. I linked to it, instead of some of the other videos, because it does not start with Shawn saying "Hey Hey Blue Table Fans!" Also, the point I am about to make applies to every BTP video.
Just focusing on the paint jobs for the models that appear in this video. It is just me, or do all the models have about the same skin tone? Some are a little greener than others, some are a little browner than others. But they are all about the same tone and lack pronounced shadows / highlights. There's nothing there that pops out at you, there may be some details but you don't really notice them.
Compare those models to the one in this video from Lester Bursley:
In the space about about an hour, he is putting a literally awesome paint job on some models. He is explaining his process as he goes along and does not need to tell me his model is "over the top" or "outstanding" to get me to like it. I genuinely feel like I learned something from having watched his video, and it left me wanting to do more models. He has a Patreon page and it feels like something I genuinely want to give money to instead of a cash grab.
Beyond that, everything he says screams integrity and respect for the community in which he operates. He's talking about other artists, different styles, different tools for the job, etc in his videos.
All this discussion about BTP's business practices has just brought me back to the fact that there are good, talented artists out there who actually do care about doing a great job for people. There is a WORLD of difference in quality between what he's done in this video and what you will find in any BTP video. While Lester speeds up his videos quite a bit, you can actually see all stages of the production process even on complex models. There is a ton of variation between each one that he does - very few of them are similar except for technique, and you can see it doesn't take all that long for him to get these kinds of results.
So the question is: why do people people like tenebre fall for companies like BTP when there are guys like Lester out there? Is it the sales job?
This is called a Random Snippet. I linked to it, instead of some of the other videos, because it does not start with Shawn saying "Hey Hey Blue Table Fans!" Also, the point I am about to make applies to every BTP video.
Just focusing on the paint jobs for the models that appear in this video. It is just me, or do all the models have about the same skin tone? Some are a little greener than others, some are a little browner than others. But they are all about the same tone and lack pronounced shadows / highlights. There's nothing there that pops out at you, there may be some details but you don't really notice them.
Compare those models to the one in this video from Lester Bursley:
In the space about about an hour, he is putting a literally awesome paint job on some models. He is explaining his process as he goes along and does not need to tell me his model is "over the top" or "outstanding" to get me to like it. I genuinely feel like I learned something from having watched his video, and it left me wanting to do more models. He has a Patreon page and it feels like something I genuinely want to give money to instead of a cash grab.
Beyond that, everything he says screams integrity and respect for the community in which he operates. He's talking about other artists, different styles, different tools for the job, etc in his videos.
All this discussion about BTP's business practices has just brought me back to the fact that there are good, talented artists out there who actually do care about doing a great job for people. There is a WORLD of difference in quality between what he's done in this video and what you will find in any BTP video. While Lester speeds up his videos quite a bit, you can actually see all stages of the production process even on complex models. There is a ton of variation between each one that he does - very few of them are similar except for technique, and you can see it doesn't take all that long for him to get these kinds of results.
So the question is: why do people people like tenebre fall for companies like BTP when there are guys like Lester out there? Is it the sales job?
techsoldaten wrote: So the question is: why do people people like tenebre fall for companies like BTP when there are guys like Lester out there? Is it the sales job?
How much does Lester charge for a commission? He's not taking any commissions according to his website, but how much would he have charged to paint like that? I'm guessing there's a good chance it's more than BTP. I'm guessing that's why people are drawn to BTP.
I don't really see the point in comparing different commission artists unless they are actually similarly priced and in similar regions (not much point comparing someone who charges $50 a model to someone who charged $5 a model, also not really fair to compare someone in the US who charges $5 to someone in India who charges $5). Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reality-Torrent wrote: Is it just me or does the level level 3 look ALLOT better and has ALLOT more detail then OP's level 6s?
It isn't just you. It was my immediate thought upon seeing them, too. I also noticed that I couldn't see any real improvements in quality as the "levels" went up.
One feature I've always noticed about BTP is they don't really offer sample images that are high enough quality to show the quality of the miniature itself. Other than the dreadnought, you can't actually see the models well enough to know how good the blending might be on them, maybe they are a lot better than level 3, who knows. An "ok" model and an "omg that's awesome" model doesn't look much different when they're only 110 pixels tall.
If I were to ever commission BTP I'd be first asking for higher resolution and better quality images to compare levels, if they couldn't supply them I wouldn't go with them.
Then there are things like one level stating that the models will be "clean", and then a higher level stating that the models with have "no slops"... so, a model can have slops yet also be considered clean? What?
It's all just advertising talk. I don't blame BTP for not using clear language in advertising, people rarely do. It's up to the customer to ask "so what do you mean by clean vs no slops?", and then if they fail to deliver on that, that's where the blame lies. I see it much the same as a restaurant advertising "Our burgers are delicious!" as if it actually means something.
techsoldaten wrote: So the question is: why do people people like tenebre fall for companies like BTP when there are guys like Lester out there? Is it the sales job?
How much does Lester charge for a commission? He's not taking any commissions according to his website, but how much would he have charged to paint like that? I'm guessing there's a good chance it's more than BTP. I'm guessing that's why people are drawn to BTP.
I don't really see the point in comparing different commission artists unless they are actually similarly priced and in similar regions (not much point comparing someone who charges $50 a model to someone who charged $5 a model, also not really fair to compare someone in the US who charges $5 to someone in India who charges $5).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reality-Torrent wrote: Is it just me or does the level level 3 look ALLOT better and has ALLOT more detail then OP's level 6s?
It isn't just you. It was my immediate thought upon seeing them, too. I also noticed that I couldn't see any real improvements in quality as the "levels" went up.
One feature I've always noticed about BTP is they don't really offer sample images that are high enough quality to show the quality of the miniature itself. Other than the dreadnought, you can't actually see the models well enough to know how good the blending might be on them, maybe they are a lot better than level 3, who knows. An "ok" model and an "omg that's awesome" model doesn't look much different when they're only 110 pixels tall.
If I were to ever commission BTP I'd be first asking for higher resolution and better quality images to compare levels, if they couldn't supply them I wouldn't go with them.
Then there are things like one level stating that the models will be "clean", and then a higher level stating that the models with have "no slops"... so, a model can have slops yet also be considered clean? What?
It's all just advertising talk. I don't blame BTP for not using clear language in advertising, people rarely do. It's up to the customer to ask "so what do you mean by clean vs no slops?", and then if they fail to deliver on that, that's where the blame lies. I see it much the same as a restaurant advertising "Our burgers are delicious!" as if it actually means something.
The last time Lester took a commission it was not much more then what BTP charges. I think he is at a point where the project has to interests him and someone offers him enough money to do it. I would suggest getting his Patreon, I have learned alot from that dude.
AwesomePaintJob is great. BuyPainted also is amazing, but has since moved to a members only channel, which I wish him all the best with. Den of Imagination gives me "studio" fixes and inspiration these days though. Tremendous work coming from that bunch.
His prices are comparable with BTP's higher levels.
I found out about him originally from someone who had him do a commission. The model looked better in person than the ones online, I had never seen anything quite that good before. When I asked how much it cost, he told me a number for each model which was affordable for most people.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: He's not taking any commissions according to his website, but how much would he have charged to paint like that? I'm guessing there's a good chance it's more than BTP. I'm guessing that's why people are drawn to BTP.
I don't get the sense his website gets updated very often. Sometimes it's best not to take artists literally.
You call him and tell him you have $10k to paint miniatures, I bet he's going to respond.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I don't really see the point in comparing different commission artists unless they are actually similarly priced and in similar regions (not much point comparing someone who charges $50 a model to someone who charged $5 a model, also not really fair to compare someone in the US who charges $5 to someone in India who charges $5).
In response: do you think tenebre would have been happier with 80% of his army painted to Lester's standard than 100% painted to BTPs?
Totally fair to compare the relative competencies of an artist. Price is completely something different, it's a matter of where you see the value.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karnophage wrote: The last time Lester took a commission it was not much more then what BTP charges. I think he is at a point where the project has to interests him and someone offers him enough money to do it. I would suggest getting his Patreon, I have learned alot from that dude.
Good point. Full disclosure: I give him money each month to make videos. You can too:
FatherKnowsBest wrote: AwesomePaintJob is great. BuyPainted also is amazing, but has since moved to a members only channel, which I wish him all the best with. Den of Imagination gives me "studio" fixes and inspiration these days though. Tremendous work coming from that bunch.
Yep yep yep. The other guy whose work makes me happy to see is James Wappel.
He just kills it again and again and again. His blog is informative and leaves you guessing how he did certain things, it always leaves me with a sense of mystery.
This is probably the level BTP wants you to think they are providing when you place an order with them.
techsoldaten wrote: When I asked how much it cost, he told me a number for each model which was affordable for most people.
Which was?
You call him and tell him you have $10k to paint miniatures, I bet he's going to respond.
But I'd be lying, so I'm not going to do that
In response: do you think tenebre would have been happier with 80% of his army painted to Lester's standard than 100% painted to BTPs?
I think we've already established that Tenebre didn't get the quality that BTP advertised... that's why he's taking action. Until you can put a figure on Lester's models the comparison is largely moot. Are they the price of a level 4? Are they a level 6? Are they priced higher?
Totally fair to compare the relative competencies of an artist. Price is completely something different, it's a matter of where you see the value.
But how do you rank the competency of an artist in the context of painting wargaming miniatures? In the context of an actual wargaming army (opposed to a single squad or display pieces) I tend to rank the competency of an artist by what they produce in a certain amount of time. Lester Burley's models, to me, look like solid table top quality miniatures, from BTP's advertising maybe a level 5 or 6, hard to say because BTP don't provide good pictures. They're both a mile off what winterdyne produces.
I'm guessing the videos Lester produces aren't his best work either, I've watched a few where he's drilled barrels off centre, there's "slops" where lines that should be sharp aren't sharp, the transitions are rough, the washes aren't cleaned up.
Given we don't have the best possible thing the artist can create to compare, you can't really judge relative competency based off that. There's no point having a race where one person walks, one person jogs and another person runs. There needs to be context, there needs to be something that constrains the playing field so a comparison can be made. If that constraint is not "produce the best looking model you possibly can" (which is not a useful measure for commission painters anyway) then the next useful constraint is "produce the best looking model you can within X amount of time and/or with X amount of dollars".
Now... one comparison where BTP have fallen flat on their face is that they've produced a commission for Tenebre that's not even to their own advertised standards (which they've admitted) and not to the contract (which they appear to be dodging) and they have not satisfactorily dealt with their error. I'm not denying any of that... I'm just pointing out that there are commission artists who produce low quality models quickly to remain affordable and commission painters who produce high quality models but at a price and time which is impractical to most customers. Comparing the two is mostly academic. The fact Lester doesn't even take commissions any more further abstracts the usefulness, you might as well pick random images off the internet and say "well this person can paint better than that person".
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think we've already established that Tenebre didn't get the quality that BTP advertised... that's why he's taking action. Until you can put a figure on Lester's models the comparison is largely moot. Are they the price of a level 4? Are they a level 6? Are they priced higher?
I have provided a relative sense of pricing appropriate for most people to make a decision. You want a specific price, you call him.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: But how do you rank the competency of an artist in the context of painting wargaming miniatures?
I don't think anyone is looking to rank every commission service out there, nor is that really very useful. This isn't an attempt to say whose number one.
I would say Lester's videos give me a tremendous sense of confidence and I would not hesitate to spend money with him were I in need of such a service.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: In the context of an actual wargaming army (opposed to a single squad or display pieces) I tend to rank the competency of an artist by what they produce in a certain amount of time. Lester Burley's models, to me, look like solid table top quality miniatures, from BTP's advertising maybe a level 5 or 6, hard to say because BTP don't provide good pictures. They're both a mile off what winterdyne produces.
That's your personal preference and completely misses the point I made. This is not an ad for Lester Bursley, the only thing I asked was why do people fall for companies that don't do a good job? This is like in high school, wondering about why the hot girls always fall for the dudes the beat them up. It's not easy to make sense of the appeal ruin and suffering have for some people.
winterdyne is indeed very talented and the only reason I did not mention him is the fact his work been mentioned elsewhere in the thread.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm guessing the videos Lester produces aren't his best work either, I've watched a few where he's drilled barrels off centre, there's "slops" where lines that should be sharp aren't sharp, the transitions are rough, the washes aren't cleaned up.
Again, complaining about Lester Bursley's work is missing the point. All I did was describe my experience watching his videos and seeing his model. You are simply criticizing my taste, which is very bad by my own admission.
Substitute any artist who inspires you.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Given we don't have the best possible thing the artist can create to compare, you can't really judge relative competency based off that. There's no point having a race where one person walks, one person jogs and another person runs. There needs to be context, there needs to be something that constrains the playing field so a comparison can be made. If that constraint is not "produce the best looking model you possibly can" (which is not a useful measure for commission painters anyway) then the next useful constraint is "produce the best looking model you can within X amount of time and/or with X amount of dollars".
The level of research and detail you require before offering an opinion on a relatively benign question is remarkable. The fact your response is both reductive and a complete non-sequitur makes this analysis all the more impressive.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Now... one comparison where BTP have fallen flat on their face is that they've produced a commission for Tenebre that's not even to their own advertised standards (which they've admitted) and not to the contract (which they appear to be dodging) and they have not satisfactorily dealt with their error. I'm not denying any of that... I'm just pointing out that there are commission artists who produce low quality models quickly to remain affordable and commission painters who produce high quality models but at a price and time which is impractical to most customers. Comparing the two is mostly academic. The fact Lester doesn't even take commissions any more further abstracts the usefulness, you might as well pick random images off the internet and say "well this person can paint better than that person".
I get the point you are trying to make but consider it pedantic. The rhetorical question I posted was whether tenebre would have been happier with 80% of his army painted to Lester's standards or 100% of it painted to BTPs standards. The point is, as in high school, some services treat you right and other's don't. I doubt he sought out problems like this.
I feel like it's wrong to post information like that online and won't be doing it.
I wasn't aware his pricing was private.
This is not an ad for Lester Bursley, the only thing I asked was why do people fall for companies that don't do a good job?
Sorry I thought that was obvious. Pricing, advertising, lack of poor reviews, not understanding the time (and thus money) that goes in to a commission, not having a critical eye to see that their pictures are too far away to actually show level of detail, they have a relatively large online presence which tends to make people feel less like they're going to be screwed over. I think that covers the major points but there may be more.
techsoldaten wrote: The point is, as in high school, some services treat you right and other's don't. I doubt he sought out problems like this.
Well then lets confine the discussion to the problems he actually has of not getting the product agreed to and the quality advertised.
You know, after the link was posted to the paint level photos on the BTP site I realized that all of the work in the photos looked better than what I remembered seeing on BTPs Flickr feed. So I decided to take a look more closely at the feed.
After looking at literally hundreds of photos I could not find one project that seemed to be of the same painting quality as any of the photos from the listing of their painting levels (although I just went back and checked and some of the recent photos come close).
Dullspork wrote: You know, after the link was posted to the paint level photos on the BTP site I realized that all of the work in the photos looked better than what I remembered seeing on BTPs Flickr feed. So I decided to take a look more closely at the feed.
After looking at literally hundreds of photos I could not find one project that seemed to be of the same painting quality as any of the photos from the listing of their painting levels (although I just went back and checked and some of the recent photos come close).
They are shocking. BTP are just ripping people off. But then again, there's a store on ebay that sells painted miniatures, and they're terribly painted most of the time, for a big mark up.
It's going to make me do something stupid one day, like quit work and blow my savings trying to sell the starter armies from DV painted
Davylove21 wrote: They are shocking. BTP are just ripping people off. But then again, there's a store on ebay that sells painted miniatures, and they're terribly painted most of the time, for a big mark up.
It's going to make me do something stupid one day, like quit work and blow my savings trying to sell the starter armies from DV painted
I sold magnetized Rhinos on eBay for a while, just because I loved building them and found it easy to do. The markup was about 135%.
Not something I could have made a living at, but paid for lots of other good stuff for my army.
Davylove21 wrote: They are shocking. BTP are just ripping people off. But then again, there's a store on ebay that sells painted miniatures, and they're terribly painted most of the time, for a big mark up.
It's going to make me do something stupid one day, like quit work and blow my savings trying to sell the starter armies from DV painted
You don't need to quit your day job. Just paint some over the holidays, and put it on eBay. You can ease into it and see if it's worth it.
Dullspork wrote: You know, after the link was posted to the paint level photos on the BTP site I realized that all of the work in the photos looked better than what I remembered seeing on BTPs Flickr feed. So I decided to take a look more closely at the feed.
After looking at literally hundreds of photos I could not find one project that seemed to be of the same painting quality as any of the photos from the listing of their painting levels (although I just went back and checked and some of the recent photos come close).
Wow. I can paint about as good as that, and I don't consider myself an especially good painter.
You gotta love the checkerboard pattern on the Wrightknight's shoulder pads where the checks don't even meet corner to corner and are of inconsistent sizes.
It's also interesting that some of the best work is on the Super Dungeon Explore models. I guess the painting style of the artist is more appropriate to that genre?
Its about as good as I paint, and I charge very little lol But my specialty was always mass of troops (like I paint 200 Clanrats far easier then a squad of 10 Grey Knights)
You can't cross once you've perfected your technique in one to the other
Rainbow Dash wrote: Its about as good as I paint, and I charge very little lol But my specialty was always mass of troops (like I paint 200 Clanrats far easier then a squad of 10 Grey Knights)
You can't cross once you've perfected your technique in one to the other
What it really comes down to is most painting studios really only have two levels. Table Top and show case.
BTP just doesn't have the talent pool to do show case, and really their upper level stuff is what most studios would call table top.
In trenable's case he ended up getting sub table top quality when he was paying for show case. Even their lower level stuff on that chart looks better then what he got.
BTP'S levels are kinda a joke.
My friend got a storm raven done by BTP as a surprise gift from a none table top friend. He get's upset when ever you point out the paint job is horrible. "Because it's a gift".
If he would let me take pics of it I would show you. Grey plastic and resin is showing threw the white primer is was sprayed with once on some corners. The bottom of it is unpainted.
While doing the basecoat on my Stormraven and I noticed I had missed priming under the swiveling rotors. I had to stop basecoating fix it. And I don't even consider myself an above par painter.
Yet these guys can charge money for a Stormraven that's only mostly painted? That's not acceptable even under their stupid new "0" category.
Do you think someone requested them that way?
Is it a common thing to have a base insert glued onto a base that's glued onto a base?
I have to admit that despite a few rough edges I'd be happy enough fielding most of the stuff on the flikr page, but then my painting is pretty basic (prime, base, wash, highlight, drybrush, no freehand), and even I think ten's chaos dwarfs were very much unfinished.
Edit: it'd be nice to quote a level on the pictures so I can tell if the wild quality difference is due to artists or levels.
The only thing I can think of when I see that is a secret weapon base glued to the top of a regular base, but even the stuff I've gotten in their bags of crap (cheap rejects) have been better quality than that by a wide margin.
I *can* tell you its not at all common in infinity, and at a guess I'd say someone has paid for senic bases and that's what BTP made themselves and delivered.
Do you think someone requested them that way?
Is it a common thing to have a base insert glued onto a base that's glued onto a base?
I have to admit that despite a few rough edges I'd be happy enough fielding most of the stuff on the flikr page, but then my painting is pretty basic (prime, base, wash, highlight, drybrush, no freehand), and even I think ten's chaos dwarfs were very much unfinished.
Edit: it'd be nice to quote a level on the pictures so I can tell if the wild quality difference is due to artists or levels.
It's painful to see incredible Infinity sculpts so abused.
Yah the only paint that on the bottom of the storm raven was a spotty/thin bit of white primer that got on when doing the tops and sides. I think he has now went in and fixed it himself with some white paint. to atleast cover the bear resin.
But like I said. Since it was a gift from a friend, he refuses to say anything bad about it.
I don't know how much/what level he paied for, but since they guy who ordered it knew nothing about wargameing i feel Blue table painting took him for a ride since he wouldn't know any better then complain. They knew they had a client who knew nothing about gaming, and easily got really gak results approved by a guy who didn't know any better.
He knew the person always wanted a storm egal for his white scars army, and ordered one from forgeworld then went to a painting studio to try and get it painted to what he quoted was "highest standard". My friend who was given the storm raven has mentioned at times it's disappointing the state of the flyer. But trys his best to to say anything negative about it's paintjob paint job, due to the sentimental attachment involved in who and why the gift was given.
It's one of reasons I don't like BTP, because they botched a really important and expensive gift for that guy.
=/
robam45 wrote: While doing the basecoat on my Stormraven and I noticed I had missed priming under the swiveling rotors. I had to stop basecoating fix it. And I don't even consider myself an above par painter.
Yet these guys can charge money for a Stormraven that's only mostly painted? That's not acceptable even under their stupid new "0" category.
Even worse because it's a FW flier they botched.
edit:
also i forgot to mention. The also glued the fins on it backwards.
Spoiler:
in this video you don't see the issues with the botton of the wings and hull. He's carefull not to show thows angles.
(excuse typos, my sleeping meds are kicking it, and wanted to post this before i head off for the night)
What is really horrible to me us that BTP get to preview beautiful Infinity minis, painted by Angel with their grubby logo slapped all over the place because of their increasingly bizarre relationship with Corvus Belli.
Hey, to be fair we all have that one friend who we thought is okay even when he's a little bit quirky. And you discover too late that... he's really not okay and that quirkiness is more creepy than you initially thought.
What is really horrible to me us that BTP get to preview beautiful Infinity minis, painted by Angel with their grubby logo slapped all over the place because of their increasingly bizarre relationship with Corvus Belli.
It's cause of btp produce a lot of their minis so they need to have big discount on price per box (another money for btp) and CORVUS belli have free time in valhalla. I think there's nothing over that. And CB don't give a sheet what btp is doing with their minis it's just sales
heartserenade wrote: Hey, to be fair we all have that one friend who we thought is okay even when he's a little bit quirky. And you discover too late that... he's really not okay and that quirkiness is more creepy than you initially thought.
Yeh but normal people discontinue their association with someone of this level of creepitude as soon as possible. Corvus appear to be sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming, 'Lalalalalala!' whenever anyone brings it up.
heartserenade wrote: Hey, to be fair we all have that one friend who we thought is okay even when he's a little bit quirky. And you discover too late that... he's really not okay and that quirkiness is more creepy than you initially thought.
Yeh but normal people discontinue their association with someone of this level of creepitude as soon as possible. Corvus appear to be sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming, 'Lalalalalala!' whenever anyone brings it up.
They probably have contractual obligations that have to be met, whether they want to or not.
Yesterday I saw your 2 videos and not only was the whole situation outrageous but you are a Saint for being able to endure all that for as long as you did but one thing really shocked me, the the mail exchange: Maybe it's me or maybe the guys from BTP honestly didn't notice, but some of their mails feel threatening. You were reading the mails and sometimes I'd be shocked by how it was worded, it sounded like you crossed a line by creating a video and you were gonna pay for it.
I have no idea what happened after the last video and you mentioned you were going to court (and I admit, I didn't read this thread's 47 pages) but I wish you the best. 9000 points of a FW army and this happens...
heartserenade wrote: Hey, to be fair we all have that one friend who we thought is okay even when he's a little bit quirky. And you discover too late that... he's really not okay and that quirkiness is more creepy than you initially thought.
Yeh but normal people discontinue their association with someone of this level of creepitude as soon as possible. Corvus appear to be sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming, 'Lalalalalala!' whenever anyone brings it up.
They probably have contractual obligations that have to be met, whether they want to or not.
I've speculated this before but it remains that Corvus aren't dong enough to distance themselves or respond to the issue.
Dullspork wrote: You know, after the link was posted to the paint level photos on the BTP site I realized that all of the work in the photos looked better than what I remembered seeing on BTPs Flickr feed. So I decided to take a look more closely at the feed.
After looking at literally hundreds of photos I could not find one project that seemed to be of the same painting quality as any of the photos from the listing of their painting levels (although I just went back and checked and some of the recent photos come close).
Wow. I can paint about as good as that, and I don't consider myself an especially good painter.
You gotta love the checkerboard pattern on the Wrightknight's shoulder pads where the checks don't even meet corner to corner and are of inconsistent sizes.
It's also interesting that some of the best work is on the Super Dungeon Explore models. I guess the painting style of the artist is more appropriate to that genre?
Fudge me, that 'Harlequin' Wraithknight is awful. Half of it seems to be just black primer, and that's the best bit !
Personally, there are a lot on there that I would say "hey, that's not half bad."....if I had painted it, or my gaming group had done the work.
But there isn't one photo on there that I would tell someone they got their monies worth if they had paid someone to paint it. If a commissioned painter proudly displayed anything dry brushed, I would snap their handles and give them some pre paint wiz kids stuff to play with. No one should be paying money for that level of work, especially the level of money that BTP is charging.
So awesome that members of the gaming community really care for fellow wargamers. What a generous proposition Les, this is a true example of the two ends of the commissioning spectrum.
For those that haven't been following the thread, I don't think Tenebre actually has the models right now, they're with another studio being repainted.
All i agrre Les does fantastic work, However i dont have any CD on hand at the moment because they are being repainted. I have messaged Les and I would like to thank the offer publicly as well.
tenebre wrote: All i agrre Les does fantastic work, However i dont have any CD on hand at the moment because they are being repainted. I have messaged Les and I would like to thank the offer publicly as well.
We'll demand pics, videos, whatever to see the awesomeness
Speaking of which, it's been a while since we have seen any pictures, tenebre. You are disappointing a group of around 56 strangers from various first world countries, plus however many lurkers have seen this thread. Cmon now.
Speaking of which, it's been a while since we have seen any pictures, tenebre. You are disappointing a group of around 56 strangers from various first world countries, plus however many lurkers have seen this thread. Cmon now.
I will have the first unit of repainted models in hand this weekend or early next week (waiting on post) I will then make a video of the models and pictures to go along with it. i will start a painting blog post to follow that progress.
heartserenade wrote: Hey, to be fair we all have that one friend who we thought is okay even when he's a little bit quirky. And you discover too late that... he's really not okay and that quirkiness is more creepy than you initially thought.
it's true the dolls quickly frighten most everyone off...'cept my doll collecting friends GW said I wouldn't be allowed to play with Imperial Knight Zoey in the store, how mean.
Most I ever charged for a paint job was 500 dollars, and I painted about... a quarter of it. I outsourced it to other people (as I often do) and the centerpiece models were painted far better then I could hope to do.
The guy found that hilarious, so did my parents.
This is just my personal feeling but that shawn, (or what he is called) old dude from Blue Table, gives me the creeps.. It's just something about how he acts and speaks that make all my alarm signals flash red..
I also think they handled this issue very badly.. and they should not charge that kind of money for painting miniatures unless they have some skillz to back it up...
This is just my personal feeling but that shawn, (or what he is called) old dude from Blue Table, gives me the creeps.. It's just something about how he acts and speaks that make all my alarm signals flash red..
I also think they handled this issue very badly.. and they should not charge that kind of money for painting miniatures unless they have some skillz to back it up...
I used to watch their videos (obviously not anymore) but I usually muted the sounds because that guys voice creeped me out.. His whole body language is creepy..
Alpharius, I have a question, and I hope this doesn't come across wrong. Where is the line drawn with Rule #1? Normally I'd ask in a PM but, I'm about to sign off for bed and it pertains to this thread.
Since Shawn owns BTP, and his behavior is in question constantly with shifty behavior, would it be okay to say he acts like a Snake Oil Salesman but, not that his voice/body is creepy/ugly/, correct? Since a behavior isn't the same as calling someone out on appearance, right? I mean this whole thread is about BTP's behavior against a client. Actually, swap Shawn with X and BTP with Y. When discussing any company is okay to say X acts shifty/strange/scammy as the owner of Y?
Just asking cause maybe it will help us not get this thread locked as many end up that way.
Anyways. To be OT, I got carried away there, oops. Is there any news on Ten's units being painted? I can't wait to see them after seeing that one model being redone.
Stormwall wrote: Anyways. To be OT, I got carried away there, oops. Is there any news on Ten's units being painted? I can't wait to see them after seeing that one model being redone.
tenebre wrote: I will have the first unit of repainted models in hand this weekend or early next week (waiting on post) I will then make a video of the models and pictures to go along with it. i will start a painting blog post to follow that progress.
I think it's better for us to address that by PM, Stormwall, if the below does not clarify it for you, soas not to derail the thread into a discussion about what is / isn't allowed. Briefly, a good rule of thumb is that saying "BTP is terrible" would likely be fine with the right reasons/justification (just a review of a business, basically) but saying "Shawn is a terrible person" is usually going to be out of bounds. We have no reason to keep a thread about an individual open, and although I know that line blurs with small businesses, generally directing your comments at the business and not the personal character of the owner is best. There is some leeway here if/when relevant, but if that becomes the main focus, then the post/thread isn't the kind of thing appropriate for Dakka (whereas a wargaming business review definitely is). Please PM to discuss further if anything isn't clear!
I will have the first unit of repainted models in hand this weekend or early next week (waiting on post) I will then make a video of the models and pictures to go along with it. i will start a painting blog post to follow that progress.
Looking forward to this, that would make a great painting blog! You could even link to it in the OP here, a bit ofa redemption story
Stormwall wrote: Alpharius, I have a question, and I hope this doesn't come across wrong. Where is the line drawn with Rule #1? Normally I'd ask in a PM but, I'm about to sign off for bed and it pertains to this thread.
Since Shawn owns BTP, and his behavior is in question constantly with shifty behavior, would it be okay to say he acts like a Snake Oil Salesman but, not that his voice/body is creepy/ugly/, correct? Since a behavior isn't the same as calling someone out on appearance, right? I mean this whole thread is about BTP's behavior against a client. Actually, swap Shawn with X and BTP with Y. When discussing any company is okay to say X acts shifty/strange/scammy as the owner of Y?
Just asking cause maybe it will help us not get this thread locked as many end up that way.
Anyways. To be OT, I got carried away there, oops. Is there any news on Ten's units being painted? I can't wait to see them after seeing that one model being redone.
Damning someone's business practices, on being presented with evidence of their business practices, is different to suggestions they are some form of sexual predator based on their voice. Calling someone out on how they interact with other people is different to saying 'that guy's eyebrows meet in the middle, lets burn him as a warlock/potential rapist/real estate salesman.
I've personally, for example, always thought Shawn sounded a lot like 'The Hooded Claw' from the Penelope Pitstop cartoons, but that's not pertinent to how his company does or does not meet customer expectations for a highly expensive cottage industry, so I don't tend to bring it up and wouldn't go to the effort to post it here as a stand alone post.
Okay. That's kinda what I had originally thought but, it felt right to ask. I apologize for the derailment and distraction but, thanks Tides and Stompa for answering.
I will have the first unit of repainted models in hand this weekend or early next week (waiting on post) I will then make a video of the models and pictures to go along with it. i will start a painting blog post to follow that progress.
Looking forward to this, that would make a great painting blog! You could even link to it in the OP here, a bit ofa redemption story
I hope this is the direction this is going to as well, and I'm hoping the other thread that involves BTP as well doesn't go south either. Judging from the quality of work that we have seen so far, the entire repaint should be good. Like I said before, I can't wait to see it in the next week or so as he stated. I am also kinda curious if at the end of all of this we get to see the painter/company who redid them so we can send business their way as sort of good will.
I saw in the thread people were looking for BTP painting levels explained and here is one I found.. Not sure if these got answered, didn't read all the pages.
Macharius. wrote: I saw in the thread people were looking for BTP painting levels explained and here is one I found.. Not sure if these got answered, didn't read all the pages.
Casey's Law wrote: For some reason this just popped up on my youtube feed. Interesting to see something from 5 years ago from BTP.
Haha It is sad that we dont have anny free "say what you want Table-top" forums. I have alot of gak i would like to say to X and Y about how you should treat your customers.. But sadly we can't on these boards..
But OP you have my support and I think you have alot of cool miniatures (as I have seen in your videos). And it is a dam shame that BTP(who obviously cant paint for gak) got their dirty hands on them... It should be a crime to destroy miniatures like that...
Casey's Law wrote: For some reason this just popped up on my youtube feed. Interesting to see something from 5 years ago from BTP.
Haha It is sad that we dont have anny free "say what you want Table-top" forums. I have alot of gak i would like to say to X and Y about how you should treat your customers.. But sadly we can't on these boards..
zlayer77 wrote: Haha It is sad that we dont have anny free "say what you want Table-top" forums. I have alot of gak i would like to say to X and Y about how you should treat your customers.. But sadly we can't on these boards..
Ahahaha! I better go get the fascist MODs to bane you, eh? Quick get your tinfoil hat ready!
The first wave of Ten's models should be coming back in the next couple of days right? Exciting times, I'm really looking forward to this. I wonder if there is something constructive the community can take from this whole experience with BTP, any suggestions? Could we appeal to them to make a statement/apology?
Haha It is sad that we dont have anny free "say what you want Table-top" forums. I have alot of gak i would like to say to X and Y about how you should treat your customers.. But sadly we can't on these boards..
Site Faq posted below - I'm hoping the bad word filter here works automatically, but (for the mods) I'll scan it through once it posts and take out anything I see it misses
Spoiler:
Frothers Unite! UK Issues
Help, someone said some rude words!
Someone said poo again, in a public forum? Dash it all to high heaven. Seriously, FU!UK is a place for everyone to kick back and relax, away from the heavy moderation and careful diplomacy of some other, more “professional” websites. Say what you feel, rant, rave and abuse each other because the moderators here will assume you are all grown up enough that you don’t need protecting from rude words (and frankly don’t give a feth in any case). If you take serious offence at a post someone has made, it may be that the moderator will need to step in and take charge... or it may be that you need to take a step back and lighten up a bit. This might not suit everyone but there you are. In general, if you don’t like what someone has said to you then you can either ignore them, or call them a witch. Either works.
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OK but this is really inappropriate material.
Porn and spam we will act on of course, please report these to a moderator who will delete the post. We do sometimes get rogue spambots peppering the boards with their evil Russian crap, just be sensible and remember not to click any links in a post that makes no sense, and don’t reply to any spam posts as it just makes the cleanup job harder. Registered members can now opt to ignore all posts made by their mortal enemies, if these are really spoiling their enjoyment of the site, using the using the Friend and Foes system.
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Where is the registration agreement then? Or code of conduct?
Code of conduct? Hahaha! Oh sorry, you were being serious. #kof#
OK so we took it down cos the default one wasn’t really relevant to what we do here and we haven’t really established a new one... one noble contributor (DemonEtrigan) supplied this draft which is quite well favoured and might serve as a good stopgap:
“Beware, by registering on this site you agree to the fact that you are at least the physical age to be considered an adult wherever the hell you come from. Unfortunately we can’t (and don’t want) to enforce a set of stupid rules that anybody who can live in normal society should already know. Just so you understand, people in here swear, take the lords name in vain, insult people, argue, swear, make reference to bodily functions and occasionally post links to disreputable sites....If any of that is likely to offend you, get the hell back to where you came from. By registering on this site you give up all rights to complain about being hurt, or offended by anything you read....Grow up!”
Thanks for that DemonE. Oh and we don’t need a COPPA agreement because we aren’t US based. If you don’t know what that is then don’t bother looking it up, its very dull.
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Are there no rules at all then?
There is one exception to our laissez-faire attitude to moderation. Frothers want a secure and relaxed environment where they are free to abuse each other without impediment, so to preserve our sanctum of anarchy we will take action against anyone abusing the forum itself.
In addition to the aforementioned spam and porn posts this includes creating spoof accounts (where it is not obvious that the account is a spoof), hijacking usernames or accounts, posting a rude word 400,000 times without spaces to feth up the page formatting and anything else that gives everyone (especially the moderators) a massive headache without being in the least bit funny.
Having a larf is fine, and if you are pushing the limits our first action will be a gentle nudge, but deliberate and repeated abuse will result in the webmaster sending his fighting uruk-monkeys to your house to move all of your furniture around while you are out.
No doubt some of you excellent creative types will find new and ingenious ways to spoil everyone’s enjoyment of the site to the extent that more rules will need to be grudgingly knocked together in the future and applied by the unpaid servants of the site. Just be aware that people who do such things on purpose are known, in the vernacular, as gak-licking zombie-fiddlers, have no friends, and never will.
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I am a miniatures/rpg/ccg/wargames company, can I post here?
Well of course you can. There are certain important things to bear in mind though.
Frothers Unite! UK is home to a wide range of professionals and experts who like to chill out after/during/instead of a hard days work. However it is chiefly a consumer site and they are mostly here in their role as consumers, with all the other schmoes, albeit as ones with an eye for different details. If you are lucky they will lend you the benefit of their wisdom (if you are really lucky they will stop after a while).
You are welcome to post news items on the appropriate forums, but do bear in mind that any comments in response will not be filtered or censored. Its a discussion board not a free advertising service. Sometimes its better to give us an idea and point us to the advertising blurb, if this is very long and likely to challenge attention spans- you don’t want people to be tired and irritable when they get to the bottom of your post, ’cos thats where the “reply” button is.
You are welcome to come and post as yourself, on any topic and in any vein, and kick back with the rest of us. Do bear in mind it is easy to get carried away in the atmosphere engendered by our laissez-faire, devil-may-care attitude to web etiquette and the anarchic crowd it seems to attract.
Be sensible - if you are posting under your professional name then don’t post anything that you wouldn’t want associated with your business. By all means maintain separate identities for professional and personal posting... its ok if everyone knows that “jamesF” is head of Tangent Figures Ltd but if he posted “fetharsepoo hahahaha” under his “Tangent Figures” login then the investors might not be too pleased.
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My livelihood is threatened by posters on your board giving a poor review to my products!
Oh feth off. Sorry but this isn’t a fanboy site like you might be used to, you aren’t supporting us with advertising revenue and there are no rules here about toning down an honest review to pass some sanitation test. Our tips to deal with such “threats” to your livelihood:
Take it on the chin - the criticism might be a lot harsher than you are used to, this is partly because we do not censor reader comments (see above) and partly because coming up with a great insult for a mediocre product is often better sport than providing balanced review. Yes we might get carried away sometimes but you will certainly get a more positive response by acknowledging criticism in good humour than by whinging. Mi casa, mis reglas.
If, under any hyperbole, there is a genuine misconception about your product, point this out and show us how wrong we are (a bad picture, for example, can lead people to believe a product line is worse than it actually is). Before you say it, no, holding a product in your hand is not neccessary to pointing out that it looks rubbish, but if bad pictures lead us to think so then we are doing you a favour by pointing that out. Its called public service bitching.
If, under any hyberbole, there is no reasoned critcism of your product at all, you could just ignore it or you could point out the failing. Sometimes people need a big nudge to articulate what they dislike about something and sometimes they are unable to get beyond “don’t like it”, in which case simply pointing this out demonstrates that the criticism is just down to a personal taste and is unlikely to sway other punters.
If your product is genuinely gak I’m afraid you are better off finding this out before you invest any more money in it. Anyway we’ve got no sympathy, you should have done some consumer testing before you launched.
forums are not nations, you are afforded zero rights on posting in one, save the right to decide you don't like the rules and leave. All forums are dictatorships, under the rule of their owners and policed by their moderators, the question is whether they are benevolent and tolerant dictatorships or draconian.
I find Dakka to be a very benevolent dictatorship, I have found other forums, other large wargaming forums, to be verymuch the reverse. I'm pleased to both use this forum and financially contribute to it, small as that donation is.
"You've never had it so good!" springs to mind.
Anyway, the suppression or lack thereof, of speech on dakka is entirely offtopic and we need to keep this one on target. It's far past time Blue Table came under real scrutiny and was placed, wriggling, under the microscope and held there for a degree of time, it's pulled some shady practices in the past, just enough to get away with without drawing down the full ire of the community, this incident, however, has surpassed that and spilled directly into taking someone's money for a stupidly subpar product.
Focus on Blue Table and lets hold them to account here, this time, instead of allowing this thread to veer off into trivial digression, something that would doubtless please Shawn Gately immensely.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: forums are not nations, you are afforded zero rights on posting in one, save the right to decide you don't like the rules and leave. All forums are dictatorships, under the rule of their owners and policed by their moderators, the question is whether they are benevolent and tolerant dictatorships or draconian.
I find Dakka to be a very benevolent dictatorship, I have found other forums, other large wargaming forums, to be verymuch the reverse. I'm pleased to both use this forum and financially contribute to it, small as that donation is.
"You've never had it so good!" springs to mind.
Anyway, the suppression or lack thereof, of speech on dakka is entirely offtopic and we need to keep this one on target. It's far past time Blue Table came under real scrutiny and was placed, wriggling, under the microscope and held there for a degree of time, it's pulled some shady practices in the past, just enough to get away with without drawing down the full ire of the community, this incident, however, has surpassed that and spilled directly into taking someone's money for a stupidly subpar product.
Focus on Blue Table and lets hold them to account here, this time, instead of allowing this thread to veer off into trivial digression, something that would doubtless please Shawn Gately immensely.
I totally agree with all the above. Don't let this thread slip into off topic oblivion for BTP has to put down some answers one way or another.
Anyway, the suppression or lack thereof, of speech on dakka is entirely offtopic and we need to keep this one on target. It's far past time Blue Table came under real scrutiny and was placed, wriggling, under the microscope and held there for a degree of time, it's pulled some shady practices in the past, just enough to get away with without drawing down the full ire of the community, this incident, however, has surpassed that and spilled directly into taking someone's money for a stupidly subpar product.
Focus on Blue Table and lets hold them to account here, this time, instead of allowing this thread to veer off into trivial digression, something that would doubtless please Shawn Gately immensely.
I agree, now I'm going to stay on topic and ask something, Over the years I have heard "negative things about BTP", it pops up from time to time. This has lead me to belive that BTP is a below avrage provider of the service they are selling. But I was totaly in the dark about what prices they were charging for the standard they where delivering.
Now comes the question Would the Table top Community benefit from a Review site/tube, that gives honest feedback on the people who provide painting services?
I agree, now I'm going to stay on topic and ask something, Over the years I have heard "negative things about BTP", it pops up from time to time. This has lead me to belive that BTP is a below avrage provider of the service they are selling. But I was totaly in the dark about what prices they were charging for the standard they where delivering.
Now comes the question Would the Table top Community benefit from a Review site/tube, that gives honest feedback on the people who provide painting services?
Have been asking myself this same question, if there's a way to ensure things like this never happen by crowdsourcing reviews of product / service providers through a community site.
Tenebre's experience has shed a lot of light on other situations that people who are less articulate / more financially strapped have had to deal with. There's a lot of leverage in the hands of providers to force deals on people that are not in their interests.
I think we should be asking BTP to make a statement to the community. This is sliding out of focus exactly how it has before when they've attracted heat. Unless something new is done here then it's just going to keep happening. How about a letter asking for a statement, names/usernames attached in petition and then emailed directly to BTP?
Casey's Law wrote: I think we should be asking BTP to make a statement to the community. This is sliding out of focus exactly how it has before when they've attracted heat. Unless something new is done here then it's just going to keep happening. How about a letter asking for a statement, names/usernames attached in petition and then emailed directly to BTP?
So far they have made statements that are misrepresentations or just outright not true. not sure how this would matter?
Keep in mind BTP asserts I received what i deserved and they did nothing wrong (outside of a few QC issues). This is the problem at hand. and in this situation, which that mentality, I dont see how anything would make a difference. They have said publicly that my project doesn't matter because they do so many.
The fact is that BTP does a semi-decent tabletop quality - and nothing much better.
As long as they limit themselves to painting something that will only be used on a tabletop - never for display, nor used in videos, then they are okay.
But the problem kicks in when they are hired to do something better, and promise that they can - when in fact they cannot.
A decent paint job style can be used by a team - but better paint jobs are individual - so when Tenebre's original painter left... BTP primed over and started over, with terrible results.
Then they tried to justify it, rather than admitting that their reaction to losing a miniatures painter was to try a bait and switch.
But as long as all you looking for is an army to slap on the table... well, it's better than an unpainted army.
heya folks i think a good idea for this thread would be too post all the awesome painting services in the states that we know of that are good/fair priced /and care about there customers that way if some one dose run across this thread they have a direction and dont have the same problem tenebre had with btp being the 1st site when googled for painting services in the usa most probably just go too them for work .and use btp if that what you are looking for but might wanna look into others 1st before committing too there service
1.http://www.frontlinegaming.org/paint-service/
2.http://www.gmmstudios.net/
3.http://awesomepaintjob.com/index.cfm
sry if i have missed anyone here if there are any i have missed feel free too post em lets at least inform folks of what a good painting services are and where too reach them online .one last thought just because you have done 8000 army's dose not give you a pass on 1 bad one
TheAuldGrump wrote: The fact is that BTP does a semi-decent tabletop quality - and nothing much better.
As long as they limit themselves to painting something that will only be used on a tabletop - never for display, nor used in videos, then they are okay.
But the problem kicks in when they are hired to do something better, and promise that they can - when in fact they cannot.
A decent paint job style can be used by a team - but better paint jobs are individual - so when Tenebre's original painter left... BTP primed over and started over, with terrible results.
Then they tried to justify it, rather than admitting that their reaction to losing a miniatures painter was to try a bait and switch.
But as long as all you looking for is an army to slap on the table... well, it's better than an unpainted army.
Kinda.
The Auld Grump
Feels weird to be saying this, but: BTP has been flogged to death. At this point, saying they are mediocre / bad / unjust / untalented / overpriced / whatever is just repetition.
I was looking at some of the original BTP videos over the weekend. Ones where Shawn was making Tyranid biomasses, from like 7 years ago. Definitely portrayed a very different situation, sounded like someone who cares.
I know we are not supposed to get into anything personal in this thread, but something that really sticks out to me in all this is how can you tell if a service has changed? There was a time when the videos there were pragmatic and showed how to actually do neat things with miniatures. Now the videos are very marketing focused, with annoying catch phrases, personality videos and other things that don't have much to do with making miniatures.
If we've learned anything from all this, maybe it's to look at a company's video channel and watch for recent examples of practical work? It's a red flag when you get the other type of video.
Casey's Law wrote: I think we should be asking BTP to make a statement to the community. This is sliding out of focus exactly how it has before when they've attracted heat. Unless something new is done here then it's just going to keep happening. How about a letter asking for a statement, names/usernames attached in petition and then emailed directly to BTP?
So far they have made statements that are misrepresentations or just outright not true. not sure how this would matter?
Keep in mind BTP asserts I received what i deserved and they did nothing wrong (outside of a few QC issues). This is the problem at hand. and in this situation, which that mentality, I dont see how anything would make a difference. They have said publicly that my project doesn't matter because they do so many.
Honestly, I don't think it would make any difference, I was just trying to breathe some life back into the thread. Plus I think it sucks that this hasn't changed anything, it's just going to fall out of public attention and BTP will continue on like nothing happened. I hope at least that you can use the law to set some precedent against them that'll force their actions and protect future customers.
I strongly think if this thread withers away without a new thread being formed that collects info on studios and painters then that would be a great loss to the community. Something should be formed, maybe a stickied thread or a constantly updated one with all the studios on it and constant updates of reviews- ie studio one had 5 positive reviews and 2 negative, studio 2 has 20 positive reviews and 0 negative ect so people can make informed choices, It would require a lot of upkeep but honestly its the least dakka could do to prevent more people from being lied to and ripped off by places like BTP.
People are talking about not letting this thread die, and keeping issues with BTP fresh. So let's all remember the last monster thread we had about BTP:
What started as a curious inquiry to their value turned into a massive hullabaloo about the hiring practices and work environment.
In that thread I talked briefly about my experience with them, that was overall good. But it seems like all the work I've seen them do since then has been of really poor quality. Someone in that thread mentioned their biggest weakness is consistency, and here with Tenebres experience we have a perfect example.
It is a start but does it really hold people accountable? I mean I think there needs to be like a "plus" version of this where not only is a service listed and its pictures but people can comment on them, give negative or positive reviews and all of that can be kept up to date on the OP. Ie Studio 1, does blah blah and blah, 10 positve, 1 negative, overall rating by reviewers 8.3/10 or something like that. I mean heck maybe an entire section should just be about painters, not techniques but literally businesses and a reviews of them. Or that could just be me, I like when buisnesses have to be very accountable and flaws/scams can be presented to the public in an easily accessible way (versus lets say BTP which alters info, hides details and bashes those who have a bad time with them). Stuff should be in the light and kept in the light for better or for worse.
StormBringer328 wrote: Wow, what an experience! I was actually thinking about having a few things worked on and was looking at them to do it. Only because I've never had a commission job done and they were the ones that first came to mind. A lot of it looks like lazy, rushed work. If they were ever a good painting service, they seem to have lost their heart.
If I were you I would find a way to dispute this. I can understand not wanting to - feeling like you won something just by getting your stuff back. But someone needs to give BTP a bug up their ass so they change their ways. I can't believe they basically hold your minis ransom!?!?
TheAuldGrump wrote: The fact is that BTP does a semi-decent tabletop quality - and nothing much better.
As long as they limit themselves to painting something that will only be used on a tabletop - never for display, nor used in videos, then they are okay.
But the problem kicks in when they are hired to do something better, and promise that they can - when in fact they cannot.
A decent paint job style can be used by a team - but better paint jobs are individual - so when Tenebre's original painter left... BTP primed over and started over, with terrible results.
Then they tried to justify it, rather than admitting that their reaction to losing a miniatures painter was to try a bait and switch.
But as long as all you looking for is an army to slap on the table... well, it's better than an unpainted army.
Kinda.
The Auld Grump
Feels weird to be saying this, but: BTP has been flogged to death. At this point, saying they are mediocre / bad / unjust / untalented / overpriced / whatever is just repetition.
I was looking at some of the original BTP videos over the weekend. Ones where Shawn was making Tyranid biomasses, from like 7 years ago. Definitely portrayed a very different situation, sounded like someone who cares.
I know we are not supposed to get into anything personal in this thread, but something that really sticks out to me in all this is how can you tell if a service has changed? There was a time when the videos there were pragmatic and showed how to actually do neat things with miniatures. Now the videos are very marketing focused, with annoying catch phrases, personality videos and other things that don't have much to do with making miniatures.
If we've learned anything from all this, maybe it's to look at a company's video channel and watch for recent examples of practical work? It's a red flag when you get the other type of video.
Not exactly flogging BTP here - in general the amount they charge is kind of okay for a mediocre paint job.
And a mediocre paint job is a lot better than unpainted.
I actually think that at their low end BTP provides a product that is reasonably priced for what you receive.
You pay for a 2 and you get a 2.
The problem is that the OP paid for a 4, 5, or 6 and got a 2 or maybe a 2.2.
Part of the root may be that BTP does not allocate the amount of time needed to produce better than a 2 - they need to get the product out the door to make room for the next product.
The other major problems are lack of communication and not having a protocol in place to repair failed product.
I am not looking at slamming BTP here - I am looking at what they can do to improve customer relations - even if it is only them saying 'we have a low end paint job at a low end price' - much like the old e-Machine advertisements.
At the low end... they are worth the money. You get what they promise - and this is not a problem.
Alternately, they could tell folks that they are currently at capacity, and cut their workload to something that they can sustain with good results.
When I paint for others I only have two levels - tabletop and character.
I do not claim that I can produce a Golden Demon winner - I have won local painting competitions, but I know full well that I would be clobbered in anything much larger. (And I annoy my girlfriend by calling myself a craftsman, not an artist. She calls it art, I call it craft. But people like Victoria Lamb create art.)
So I do not claim anything beyond what I can produce.
When I have too many projects I tell people that it will be a while before I can even begin on their project, maybe they should try elsewhere. (More often, I offer to give them some lessons on how to paint. Depressingly few are willing to pick up the paints themselves.)
That said, I do produce better paint jobs than what the OP received after sending BTP thousands of dollars. My tabletop paint job is better than what they were claiming was display quality.
I would have been ashamed to foist the paint jobs off on a customer, let alone trying to defend those paint jobs.
But at their low end, they are producing a product that is worth what they charge.
I think that an impartial review of various miniatures painters - allowing for difference in prices - would be an excellent resource.
The Auld Grump
*EDIT* There are folks that paint historical miniatures that charge a like amount, though most often for lacquer wash paint jobs, not drybrushing over primer.
There is a certain amount of accountability when studios place their work up for public scrutiny. You'll notice that garden ninja, GMM, golem, myself awaken realms, your well painted army, etc all do this. We want to be known for what we do. You'll also notice that BTP's thread for the same purpose died a death pretty quickly. The sales spiel didn't wash when other painters were levelling critique.
It is a start but does it really hold people accountable? I mean I think there needs to be like a "plus" version of this where not only is a service listed and its pictures but people can comment on them, give negative or positive reviews and all of that can be kept up to date on the OP. Ie Studio 1, does blah blah and blah, 10 positve, 1 negative, overall rating by reviewers 8.3/10 or something like that. I mean heck maybe an entire section should just be about painters, not techniques but literally businesses and a reviews of them. Or that could just be me, I like when buisnesses have to be very accountable and flaws/scams can be presented to the public in an easily accessible way (versus lets say BTP which alters info, hides details and bashes those who have a bad time with them). Stuff should be in the light and kept in the light for better or for worse.
I did try to start a thread to discuss such things over here, so that tenebre's thread could remain on-topic, but no-one seemed interested...
what i find odd. Is that there seems to be reports like the one above randomly all over yet, when you speak out, fanatical supporters come out and attack anyone who speaks against BT.
As you can see one such supporter literally gave them a nice large order just to "prove me wrong" or in spite.
I mean when such bad service (let alone quality) is evident., not to mention their public poor treatment of gamers, like myself, why would anyone want to support them? They are neither the cheapest nor the best so it makes no sense.
as a consumer, if a company treats someone poorly, I take my business elsewhere, but in this case, and the fact they have been doing this for so many years it is just bizarre.
When did the consumer become beholden to the big business? This should never be the case.
I agree a review system is needed and it need to be out there with pictures etc to help people make informed decisions.
"I don't get in arguments with clients. I simply ask them what they want done. If there is a problem I can give a refund or make corrections. Since Nick has made this issue public, I say "Nick, what do you want me to do?" "
Where is this customer service now Shawn? Why not give a refund in Tenebre's case?
"I don't get in arguments with clients. I simply ask them what they want done. If there is a problem I can give a refund or make corrections. Since Nick has made this issue public, I say "Nick, what do you want me to do?" "
Where is this customer service now Shawn? Why not give a refund in Tenebre's case?
he said because i "chose to move it to the court of public opinion"
He is literally teaching the customer a lesson ....
It strikes me as a little petulant from Shawn, and in all fairness, he is no businessman. He has let this become personal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also quoted from Shawn, even after someone went public on him. (He seems to really hate that)
"Someone brought up the Tau project. This is similar to that in this way: I offered (and gave) a full and unconditional refund (in cash) to that guy, too, within a day after he complained to me personally. Following day: complaining publicly.
Let me be clear about my tone. It is conciliatory. I am not railing or arguing. My hands are open."
So offered a full refund on this project even after going public. I would like to know the difference?
...
So offered a full refund on this project even after going public. I would like to know the difference?
Most likely Shawn was aware that Nick could have serious impact in the gaming community. Guess he didn't know who Tenebre was.
Or, times have changed and money's too tight these days.
Or, he was just feeling gakky.
Or, he has some form of dementia and thinks this was actually good work for the standard specified?
Redbad wrote: I feel so bad for whoever has been suckered by these fools.
I have unsubbed from both BTP and MWG, and am on a campaign to spread your story.
as it is now, BTP is just growing in popularity, with the new end times stuff coming out....
Thanks
Austin
Out of curiosity, where can I read what the heck happened with MWG for this reaction? Or is this a reaction because MWG has always been supportive of BTP? Because last I checked, MWG was still awesome.
...
So offered a full refund on this project even after going public. I would like to know the difference?
Most likely Shawn was aware that Nick could have serious impact in the gaming community. Guess he didn't know who Tenebre was.
Or, times have changed and money's too tight these days.
Or, he was just feeling gakky.
Or, he has some form of dementia and thinks this was actually good work for the standard specified?
Eh, pick one or more.
Could it be size/cost of the commission and cash flow problems? Maybe this one was too expensive for him to want to come up with the cash (or even be able to come up with the cash) to offer a refund?
(just guessing, no clue about the size of the commission from Nick not any clue about BTPs financial situation).
Redbad wrote: I feel so bad for whoever has been suckered by these fools.
I have unsubbed from both BTP and MWG, and am on a campaign to spread your story.
as it is now, BTP is just growing in popularity, with the new end times stuff coming out....
Thanks
Austin
Out of curiosity, where can I read what the heck happened with MWG for this reaction? Or is this a reaction because MWG has always been supportive of BTP? Because last I checked, MWG was still awesome.
Look at around page 17-18 of this thread.
They wanted to plug BTP, and refused any "negative" or "damaging" comments about the stuff that BTP paints, because they wanted it to be a "positive" review.
Redbad wrote: I feel so bad for whoever has been suckered by these fools.
I have unsubbed from both BTP and MWG, and am on a campaign to spread your story.
as it is now, BTP is just growing in popularity, with the new end times stuff coming out....
Thanks
Austin
Out of curiosity, where can I read what the heck happened with MWG for this reaction? Or is this a reaction because MWG has always been supportive of BTP? Because last I checked, MWG was still awesome.
Look at around page 17-18 of this thread.
They wanted to plug BTP, and refused any "negative" or "damaging" comments about the stuff that BTP paints, because they wanted it to be a "positive" review.
Thanks
Austin
feth. I have read it. I still have trouble believing it. feth me.
No I just meant keep posting that stuff here so Ten's repaint blog is only about the repaint and not about what happened. Don't want to drag two threads down especially when the blog should be about congratulating Ten and applauding Frontline.
Repaint's looking fantastic Ten, the blood is gruesome yet so appropriate Also does anyone have info on the BTP vs CHS ordeal? I didn't know about that, though it doesn't surprise me that Shawn has a history for doing these sorts of thing.
"I don't get in arguments with clients. I simply ask them what they want done. If there is a problem I can give a refund or make corrections. Since Nick has made this issue public, I say "Nick, what do you want me to do?" "
Where is this customer service now Shawn? Why not give a refund in Tenebre's case?
Because it was a lie? Not sure how it works in the US, but in Sweden words are legally binding. If he had said something like that to the OP and then went back on his word, he would be liable to prosecution in a court of law.
"I don't get in arguments with clients. I simply ask them what they want done. If there is a problem I can give a refund or make corrections. Since Nick has made this issue public, I say "Nick, what do you want me to do?" "
Where is this customer service now Shawn? Why not give a refund in Tenebre's case?
he said because i "chose to move it to the court of public opinion"
He is literally teaching the customer a lesson ....
And now, because of his intransigence, you're moving it to actual court....
I 've watched this carefully and I really sympathize tenebre because he endured a lot and spend an awful lot of money to receive only frustration from BTP.
The "You never talk to the artist" argument is the one that puts the final coffin nail on BTP as a service for me. They are so afraid that the artist by getting in contact with the client will steal him from BTP? Because besides that there is absolutely no reason to avoid artist and client contact.
I cant imagine myself as a commission painter/business not talking to the client so he can express exactly what he wants. Most importantly when he receives wip pics he must be able to communicate any corrections needed in the most direct way.
A company is measured by the way it handles clients with any kind of problem. MWG is coming to their defense claiming that BTP has a long record of satisfied clients and that somehow diminishes the value of money tenebre spent to have his army painted. They are great I vote for them
cause they have painted so many armies but if you get a model with primer as paint for which you payed a hefty amount of money well... tough luck s$#@t happens better luck next time. So much BS from Mathew within a 3 min vid.
Common sense nowadays is becoming so rare that its going to be considered a superpower...
Capamaru wrote: The "You never talk to the artist" argument is the one that puts the final coffin nail on BTP as a service for me. They are so afraid that the artist by getting in contact with the client will steal him from BTP? Because besides that there is absolutely no reason to avoid artist and client contact.
I cant imagine myself as a commission painter/business not talking to the client so he can express exactly what he wants. Most importantly when he receives wip pics he must be able to communicate any corrections needed in the most direct way.
What's really stupid is that it's not like BTP can't host a conference call at basically zero cost. Heck, they can even sit in on the call to monitor it. And it's not like they aren't already sitting on a pile of cash and the models.
It's weird isn't it. There's a number of effects on there, that look pretty good for TT quality (not sure what it's supposed to be on their level). But then, you see the yellow AROUND the eye, rather than in it. And I just don't understand how that happens. Maybe it's just me, but that's just the worst mistake you can make. I'm not a great painter, but I'll ALWAYS fix that problem up, and it's not even hard to fix!
Alfndrate wrote: This is what I found when it comes to "stray yellow brush strokes"
Yeah that is kinda unacceptable because it is on the front of the model and right above that pool which looks like too sometime to do. So whoever was painting it should of noticed it.
This stuff is fun and all, but it's a pretty pointless discussion in a vaccuum.
Every paintjob is worth some amount of $. (0 is an amount). Without knowing what would be charged for this work it's all pretty pointless and, honestly, undermines more legitimate and focused criticism of BTP.
Namely that they provided ridiculously poor value for money for tenebre, that they didn't back up their own promises with actions, and that they made little to no genuine effort to resolve the situation.
plastictrees wrote: This stuff is fun and all, but it's a pretty pointless discussion in a vaccuum.
Every paintjob is worth some amount of $. (0 is an amount). Without knowing what would be charged for this work it's all pretty pointless and, honestly, undermines more legitimate and focused criticism of BTP.
Namely that they provided ridiculously poor value for money for tenebre, that they didn't back up their own promises with actions, and that they made little to no genuine effort to resolve the situation.
Capamaru wrote: The "You never talk to the artist" argument is the one that puts the final coffin nail on BTP as a service for me. They are so afraid that the artist by getting in contact with the client will steal him from BTP? Because besides that there is absolutely no reason to avoid artist and client contact.
I cant imagine myself as a commission painter/business not talking to the client so he can express exactly what he wants. Most importantly when he receives wip pics he must be able to communicate any corrections needed in the most direct way.
What's really stupid is that it's not like BTP can't host a conference call at basically zero cost. Heck, they can even sit in on the call to monitor it. And it's not like they aren't already sitting on a pile of cash and the models.
They hire artists based on the number of models they can paint by the hour, and artists are paid based on some kind of commission scheme. The number of models per hour is not connected to the levels they advertise in any meaningful way, and the commission scheme requires people to paint a lot of models to make anything near a living wage.
That said, I cannot see how anyone would be compensated for phone calls. I don't think BTP can afford the overhead.
I still can't believe that they think it's in their best interests to continue to wear negative publicity, by dragging this into court.
It's not too late (I presume) to contact tenebre and sort this out like reasonable human beings.
I don't think it is too late. From what we've seen, Ten is a very sound, intelligent man and if they offered him something reasonable like a full refund and apology he would graciously except it. I could be wrong but that's the vibe I get from him. But BTP won't go down that road because they are the unreasonable party here.
Once lawyers are involved, generally they become the only conduit for communication and advise both parties to say nothing else publicly, or to each other.
Partly this is so everything is notarised for if/when it goes to court, and the situation can be clearly examined without any 'he-said / they-said' going on, and partly so that the lawyers can argue between themselves to resolve the issue using whatever legal precedents they can think of to get the other side to settle before courts or judges get involved.
Lawyers are obliged to vigorously defend their client's position and to argue for the best outcome for their client. They can also only provide advice, not imperatives - if Shawn wants to argue he's done no wrong, he can. Whether his counsel gives him advice to do that or not depends on their evaluation of the situation and any evidence presented or other information available.
Casey's Law wrote: I don't think it is too late. From what we've seen, Ten is a very sound, intelligent man and if they offered him something reasonable like a full refund and apology he would graciously except it. I could be wrong but that's the vibe I get from him. But BTP won't go down that road because they are the unreasonable party here.
Yeah when they flat out refused to offer anything more than 20% store credit. and that is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. Once they started sending out altered emails and trying to dismiss my complaint publicly i gave up.
If they truly, truly wanted to make this right and admit that what they sold wasn't what they delivered on, a full refund and an apology would be the way to go. Having seen Tenebre's willingness to address matters in videos, it would be something I could see him making an update video noting as much (of his own accord; trying to wrangle it into a requirement as part of the refund would neuter much of the 'making things right' aspect).
From there, I'd make his original critique video required watching for all artists and managers that they work with, along with the note "LET'S NEVER HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN".
It is a chance to step back, say "Y'know what? Yeah, we done fethed up. And we're going to make it right." and strive to move forward with deeds (better painting, better communication).
This isn't going to get swept under the rug. If anything, the way the community has become involved (large threads on multiple sites, multiple painting services offering to do up figures at no charge, one service doing the whole damned thing, etc) means this isn't just going to fade away. I imagine this is the kind of stain that follows you around for years.
It won't stop them from getting work, but this is tangible damage to their business model, likely far above and beyond the cost of Tenebre's potential refund.
Not that I expect any of that to come to pass. That's some wistful thinking. But the more they dig in, and the more comparison videos and pics that come out showing other teams and individuals showcasing incredible work, the better advertising it becomes for others and against BTP.
It's going to remain the gift that keeps on giving, imo.
To frontline GAMeing... they showed that community interaction matters... (and this goes for all the others who also volunteered to fix up and repaint your army.. It is one of the more positive thing about this whole thing.
That BTP is an isolated thing and that most of the other painting services take their Craft seriously... To the point that they even offer to repaint stuff for for free to get some good PR...
I mean the before and after pictures on your stuff is clear evidence enough that BTP should close it doors for good.. They should not be in business charging money to paint miniatures....
It is to bad that Mini wargamign had to get dragged down with them, they should just have stayed out of this ... Because the overwhelming evidence syas that BTP really screwed up here...
It was an exchange of product/services, and possibly other perks like getting to go to Valhalla free of charge (which is insanely expensive). BTP had advertising "credit" that they earned by doing work for MWG and they cashed it in so they would do a video for BTP advertising the service.
I think the fact that the video was taken down shortly after and Matt refused to comment on it is probably proof that they aren't entirely blind. I don't necessarily see it as MWG coming to BTP's rescue and shilling for them, though it certainly didn't help much. Especially Matt's reiteration that BTP has thousands of completed projects and they're all happy, implying that tenebre's was either a special case or just didn't really matter in the end as others have apparently spent far more than even he has.
Sidstyler wrote: It was an exchange of product/services, and possibly other perks like getting to go to Valhalla free of charge (which is insanely expensive). BTP had advertising "credit" that they earned by doing work for MWG and they cashed it in so they would do a video for BTP advertising the service.
I think the fact that the video was taken down shortly after and Matt refused to comment on it is probably proof that they aren't entirely blind. I don't necessarily see it as MWG coming to BTP's rescue and shilling for them, though it certainly didn't help much. Especially Matt's reiteration that BTP has thousands of completed projects and they're all happy, implying that tenebre's was either a special case or just didn't really matter in the end as others have apparently spent far more than even he has.
The problem that I had was that there was no notion that ANYBODY could be unhappy with BTP, and they really made ten seem like a pain in the ass, by making BTP look like this GREAT company.
Matt always does these stupid plugs for people, that aggravates the piss out of me.. but this one was really bad.
and he has not sent any contact since that time.
Shawn if you're reading this... "Wow effects around focal points" and "Wow effects on multiple fields" are meant to mean... "Wow look at that, that's so cool" not "Wow I can't believe they missed out painting a skull on a level 6 model, that's supposed to have, Wow effects on multiple fields, Free hand possible, Object source lighting, Dynamic basing, 6 levels of highlight/shadow"
they have every right too sell there painted models for whatever price they can get .tenebre new thread 
