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TinBane wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
My concern that it might hurt tenebre's legal actions when he publicly detailed the correspondence he's had with BTP, if it's bad for BTP to share communication surely it would be bad for tenebre to do it as well?

I'm definitely eager to see some more of the retouched models though.

I was suggesting that someone share BTPs disclosure with tenebre. Not that he share his version of the private correspondence.

Oh yeah, I understand that, I mean that he's already shared a lot of the correspondence in his videos and on various forums and I wondered if that would hurt his legal action.

It shouldn't.
I haven't seen him share a giant dump of all the conversation. He's just given a verbal account of his side of it (from what I've seen).
Also, there's a difference in whether something is considered private, for a customer or a company.

TinBane wrote:
It shouldn't.
I haven't seen him share a giant dump of all the conversation. He's just given a verbal account of his side of it (from what I've seen).
Also, there's a difference in whether something is considered private, for a customer or a company.

This is an important distinction. I do not believe he has shared anything that is technically private (him being the customer). However shawn is the company and I think he may have passed on information, that from the

view of the company, would be considered private. I just don't know to what degree Shawn is giving away information.

 themonk wrote:
This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.

that was sent right after he withdrew the GMM repaint solution (after i accepted it) leaving me only the send it back choice (which would allow bt to "fix:" the models after i remove the video and "repair" all damage.... WOW... and of course he left off the entire first paragraph explaining that and he has not sent any contact since that time.

Two words: Defamatory behaviour. Mention it to your lawyer.

If you make any income whatsoever from your youtube channel (advertising etc) implying incorrectly that you are a liar or otherwise untrustworthy is damaging to your business.

The reverse is also true, (and if BTP have any sense they have a lawyer who's also told them this) so you have to watch what you say, and ensure you have evidence lodged (ideally held by your lawyer) for any statement you make publicly involving BTP.

ClockworkChaos wrote:

TinBane wrote:
It shouldn't.
I haven't seen him share a giant dump of all the conversation. He's just given a verbal account of his side of it (from what I've seen).
Also, there's a difference in whether something is considered private, for a customer or a company.

This is an important distinction. I do not believe he has shared anything that is technically private (him being the customer). However shawn is the company and I think he may have passed on information, that from the

view of the company, would be considered private. I just don't know to what degree Shawn is giving away information.

What he has sent out to customers is a highly edited version of the conversations (mostly removing my complaints and repeated status questions) Its geared to look like the mean customer is picking on the business owner. He removes all names so while unethical it is not in violation of the privacy act. I do have all original emails. he ends it with his generous offer to have GMM repaint but cuts off the retraction and removes all references to video removal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

winterdyne wrote:
Two words: Defamatory behaviour. Mention it to your lawyer.

If you make any income whatsoever from your youtube channel (advertising etc) implying incorrectly that you are a liar or otherwise untrustworthy is damaging to your business.

The reverse is also true, (and if BTP have any sense they have a lawyer who's also told them this) so you have to watch what you say, and ensure you have evidence lodged (ideally held by your lawyer) for any statement you make publicly involving BTP.

yep long since done. Also this is why i can only answer certain things.... and I dont bother replying to comments on other channels.

 tenebre wrote:
What he has sent out to customers is a highly edited version of the conversations (mostly removing my complaints and repeated status questions) Its geared to look like the mean customer is picking on the business owner. He removes all names so while unethical it is not in violation of the privacy act. I do have all original emails. he ends it with his generous offer to have GMM repaint but cuts off the retraction and removes all references to video removal.

Wow... that's messed up!

Meaning, the part about their removing all demands to take the video down as a condition of restitution, and having the gall to end with an offer they retracted. Sheesh!

Another thing worth noting: If you look further in the comment, you will notice he states there's a chargeback for the full amount with the credit card company.

2 things:

1) He's asserting there's a chance tenebre gets a full refund regardless of what he does. Not sure if that's the reason, but it could explain some of his earlier actions and correspondence.

2) It's a little crazy how he sees the dispute process as being out of his hands. This is something he could settle today if he wanted to.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Another thing worth noting: If you look further in the comment, you will notice he states there's a chargeback for the full amount with the credit card company.

2 things:

1) He's asserting there's a chance tenebre gets a full refund regardless of what he does. Not sure if that's the reason, but it could explain some of his earlier actions and correspondence.

2) It's a little crazy how he sees the dispute process as being out of his hands. This is something he could settle today if he wanted to.

Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.

 tenebre wrote:

Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.

Fun. Wondering where the money actually lives now - with Paypal or your credit card issuer?

What do you think, is keeping this open worth the cost to his business, considering the amount of unfavorable attitudes it's generating in the community?

At the start of next week (I believe November 18th) the Paypal filing window will increase to 180 days for most transactions, similar to normal credit cards... so that may help in instances like this (in the future).

 techsoldaten wrote:

 tenebre wrote:

Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.

Fun. Wondering where the money actually lives now - with Paypal or your credit card issuer?

What do you think, is keeping this open worth the cost to his business, considering the amount of unfavorable attitudes it's generating in the community?

after 90-120 days depending on your bank they money is available in your account 100%

 tenebre wrote:

after 90-120 days depending on your bank they money is available in your account 100%

Stunning. If I understand that correctly, BTP could stop this all today with a phone call. They are choosing to drag it out, with the hope of... what exactly?

 techsoldaten wrote:

 tenebre wrote:

Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.

Fun. Wondering where the money actually lives now - with Paypal or your credit card issuer?

What do you think, is keeping this open worth the cost to his business, considering the amount of unfavorable attitudes it's generating in the community?

From a professional point of view, this should have been settled long ago as it's proceeded pretty much exactly as you might think it would. The work simply was not up to par, and the service dismally failed to keep the client's trust in putting errors right.

In terms of the fallout; a commission service lives and dies by the service it offers and the reputation it has - anyone looking at BTP is going to find this stuff now. I'd be gutted.

The damage to the reputation for quality is done. The damage to the reputation of service can get worse by being dragged to court; this could potentially lead to financial damage above and beyond the cost of the project - letting it get that far would be monumentally stupid. Not contesting the refund is now the only sensible option.

Ordinarily, a balls-up with a commission service can often by fixed by offering the client something better or a guarantee of a certain level of quality- I'm going through something similar now with the job I'm currently doing- the client booked this a long, long time ago, and I attempted to outsource the work. It didn't work out (twice, actually), so the client is now getting my full attention in putting the job out at a decent standard, irrespective of the time it takes me. This is all agreed with the client - and they're happy to wait for some stonking stuff to come back. And I'm happy because I'm not putting out my name attached to something I wouldn't be really happy with. That's important, too. I don't mind a reputation of being slow. I would mind a reputation of giving customers something below their expectations.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 tenebre wrote:

after 90-120 days depending on your bank they money is available in your account 100%

Stunning. If I understand that correctly, BTP could stop this all today with a phone call. They are choosing to drag it out, with the hope of... what exactly?

the hope i am guessing is BTP will retain all its money and the customer (me) will go away.

 tenebre wrote:

the hope i am guessing is BTP will retain all its money and the customer (me) will go away.

I can totally see you doing that. You are such a push over.

Just a heads-up Tenebre, FatherKnowsBest started a little thread over on the official Infinity Forums linking to here because BTP is an "official Infinity partner"(which irritated me to no end even before this nonsense happened).

Feel free to come post.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Just a heads-up Tenebre, FatherKnowsBest started a little thread over on the official Infinity Forums linking to here because BTP is an "official Infinity partner"(which irritated me to no end even before this nonsense happened).

Feel free to come post.

Since i dont play infinity i feel wrong posting in that forum. but feel free to link them back to this thread. Although the gang seems to have their heads on pretty straight. BTW BTP fought the charge back with full force. So his post is very erroneous in tone. and no even with a full refund (which can not happen due to the age of the charge back) the matter is not settled simply because BTP did not resolve it willingly.

 tenebre wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Just a heads-up Tenebre, FatherKnowsBest started a little thread over on the official Infinity Forums linking to here because BTP is an "official Infinity partner"(which irritated me to no end even before this nonsense happened).

Feel free to come post.

Since i dont play infinity i feel wrong posting in that forum. but feel free to link them back to this thread. Although the gang seems to have their heads on pretty straight. BTW BTP fought the charge back with full force. So his post is very erroneous in tone. and no even with a full refund (which can not happen due to the age of the charge back) the matter is not settled simply because BTP did not resolve it willingly.

FKB did link this thread. It might be advantageous to also link the warseer thread as that has more testimonial on it in reference to BTP.

I noticed the more recent MWG video supporting BTP has been removed. It was getting a ton of dislikes, I wonder if MWG removed it because they saw it was hurting MWG or if BTP requested that MWG remove it because it was hurting BTP.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I noticed the more recent MWG video supporting BTP has been removed. It was getting a ton of dislikes, I wonder if MWG removed it because they saw it was hurting MWG or if BTP requested that MWG remove it because it was hurting BTP.

Either way the damage was done since it was up for two days and talked about on all the forums.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.

 tenebre wrote:

Correct. if he issued the refund i asked for weeks ago there would have been no chargeback. Although keep in mind this is done for legal reasons. Since the project required payment far too long ago to issue a normal chargeback. (paypal only allows 45 days)
Also when a credt card does a charge back they first request the merchant voluntarily refund. He has to refuse to do so in order for the chargeback to continue.

Yep. With a CC the vendor gets 45 (business) days to refuse the chargeback, so expect it to take the full amount of time. You can then dispute it a second time, and at that point stuff actually starts to happen. While vendors could make this sort of thing go away immediately, using the system to their advantage they get to keep your money for an extra few months.

I understand that PayPal has recently changed their 45 days dispute limit to something longer, though I'm not 100% sure of the details.

 Ustrello wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.

What? Why? So he can now claim that tenebre's work was their "middle of the road" pricing instead of sub-GD level like before?

Even then, how does that change anything? Is level 6 still not good enough to get skulls, beards, teeth and nails painted? Or to cover primer, even? How much money do you have to pay them to have an entire figure actually painted? God damn.

That's shady as feth that he thinks he can just make up new levels like that and pretend like tenebre paid for lower quality than what was promised.

Anyway, on MWG (though it's probably off-topic at this point, I don't know), I thought Matt's viewpoint in his newest Sit and Talk video was pretty reasonable. I dunno. What I found more offensive was the new Warmachine League battle report that went up. I haven't watched any of the old ones but I was bored so I gave this one a shot...when I saw the first "Achievement Unlocked!" thing popped up I laughed about it thinking it was a corny joke, but no, they were serious. And barely 5 minutes into the video I see the first player on turn one start attacking his own models to get an achievement. I clicked "thumbs down" and quit watching promptly after that. That's probably the stupidest fething thing I've ever seen, not just achievement farming in a tabletop game but doing such asinine crap to get them.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.

What? Why? So he can now claim that tenebre's work was their "middle of the road" pricing instead of sub-GD level like before?

Even then, how does that change anything? Is level 6 still not good enough to get skulls, beards, teeth and nails painted? Or to cover primer, even? How much money do you have to pay them to have an entire figure actually painted? God damn.

That's shady as feth that he thinks he can just make up new levels like that and pretend like tenebre paid for lower quality than what was promised.

Anyway, on MWG (though it's probably off-topic at this point, I don't know), I thought Matt's viewpoint in his newest Sit and Talk video was pretty reasonable. I dunno. What I found more offensive was the new Warmachine League battle report that went up. I haven't watched any of the old ones but I was bored so I gave this one a shot...when I saw the first "Achievement Unlocked!" thing popped up I laughed about it thinking it was a corny joke, but no, they were serious. And barely 5 minutes into the video I see the first player on turn one start attacking his own models to get an achievement. I clicked "thumbs down" and quit watching promptly after that. That's probably the stupidest fething thing I've ever seen, not just achievement farming in a tabletop game but doing such asinine crap to get them.

I think it is a ploy to make it seem like OP paid for middle of the road service. But I know he ripped the painting guide level so shawn won't be able to use that as his defense since it was done obviously after the controversy and waaaay after OP contracted them to paint the army.

Why is everything this guy does seem so shifty? Hiding videos showing levels, changing levels, etc.

On the plus side, he is giving wonderful business advice. Do everything the exact opposite of how he would, and be golden.

Moving the goalposts now is, frankly, a twofold admission of a) guilt and b) not caring that he's guilty.

The delusional mindset capable of believing that attempted smoke and mirrors with these 'endorsements' and the old switcheroo with the painting standards, instead of just refunding the OP and doubling down on the quality of what leaves the business as product speaks volumes.

I strongly urge not a single reader of this to place your business with this man and this company in it's current condition.

 inquisitorlewis wrote:
Why is everything this guy does seem so shifty? Hiding videos showing levels, changing levels, etc.

On the plus side, he is giving wonderful business advice. Do everything the exact opposite of how he would, and be golden.

That'll be 2,500 payable in check to shawn spanish fork utah

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The delusional mindset capable of believing that attempted smoke and mirrors with these 'endorsements' and the old switcheroo with the painting standards, instead of just refunding the OP and doubling down on the quality of what leaves the business as product speaks volumes.

I like that he mentioned something about debating whether or not they should just remove Level 2 as an option, because it just doesn't look good enough. It was like he was trying to imply that most of the models we've seen were either Level 2 commissions or that the customers just asked for really wacky stuff, and that's why there's so many bad-looking projects out there.

 Ustrello wrote:


I think it is a ploy to make it seem like OP paid for middle of the road service. But I know he ripped the painting guide level so shawn won't be able to use that as his defense since it was done obviously after the controversy and waaaay after OP contracted them to paint the army.

He already tried saying this early on before he forgot to make his level video private and someone called him on it. i also have the correspondence where i specifically say i want showcase quality I have had messages from random people on saying basicaly "its you fault for ordering so low levels, you cant expect BT level 10 when you paid for 6" so his game works on some people.

I mean seriously.. out of a 10 scale? i wouldn't get anything less than and 8 ... and thats frankly too many levels anyway if you offer levels 2-6 then you have 1-5 scale. This isnt some universally recognized level system so it makes no sense to have arbitrary levels that you do not offer.

They used to state level 7 was golden daemon placing (they dont offer this but it is in their pricing guide) and the prices they want for level 7.. certainly are not 7/10 ....

i like scales: 1. tabletop horde , 2. tabletop elite, 3. character 4. special (one offs GD type stuff) thats all you need.

 tenebre wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:


I think it is a ploy to make it seem like OP paid for middle of the road service. But I know he ripped the painting guide level so shawn won't be able to use that as his defense since it was done obviously after the controversy and waaaay after OP contracted them to paint the army.

He already tried saying this early on before he forgot to make his level video private and someone called him on it. i also have the correspondence where i specifically say i want showcase quality I have had messages from random people on saying basicaly "its you fault for ordering so low levels, you cant expect BT level 10 when you paid for 6" so his game works on some people.

I mean seriously.. out of a 10 scale? i wouldn't get anything less than and 8 ... and thats frankly too many levels anyway if you offer levels 2-6 then you have 1-5 scale. This isnt some universally recognized level system so it makes no sense to have arbitrary levels that you do not offer.

They used to state level 7 was golden daemon placing (they dont offer this but it is in their pricing guide) and the prices they want for level 7.. certainly are not 7/10 ....

i like scales: 1. tabletop horde , 2. tabletop elite, 3. character 4. special (one offs GD type stuff) thats all you need.

I'd say since you have those emails and the video stating the painting levels this was a pretty hair brained scheme even by shawn's standards