Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

TinBane wrote:


Tenebre: Will we eventually find out who helped you with getting your army fixed up? They don't want to remain completely anonymous, do they?

yes i will do a blog as each unit is completed. I dont want to taint someones charity and kindness in this thread, so it will be a separate thread in the painting section. (should have first one up next week.)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What do you mean by "OUT there business ideas" MGS

From the reference to "paint and they will come", I imagine he means the idea of pre-painting armies that are not yet sold. I tend to agree with his analysis as well, it's an expensive, slow moving stock item, and a lot of it comes down to taste. Is the risk, worth the "cost" to the customer of waiting for a commissioned one to be complete? It's the classic "marginal payoff, which only pays off if you predict the needs of the market extremely well", aka a bad investment. I mean, people aren't paying double for this army, because it's quickly delivered, are they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tenebre wrote:

TinBane wrote:


Tenebre: Will we eventually find out who helped you with getting your army fixed up? They don't want to remain completely anonymous, do they?

yes i will do a blog as each unit is completed. I dont want to taint someones charity and kindness in this thread, so it will be a separate thread in the painting section. (should have first one up next week.)

Awesome, and agree 100%. Sounds like you are happy with their interaction, and work.

It's weird, but you posted up three pretty honest videos. So I feel like I am invested in how things work out for you, despite living on the other side of the world.
Let the community know, if there's things they can do to help you sort everything out. I know there's been mention of crowd-funding, etc.

I don't play fantasy (haven't for years), I don't watch fantasy battle reports, etc. But I'll definitely be checking yours out, when you have your chaos dwarves sorted! I'll be keeping an eye out for the updates too. Blog will be a post on your YT, or do you have a written blog?

i honestly don't think that Shawn is capable of eating any humble pie, and reforming his approach to business, MGS...
through ten years of watching them churn out mediocre work, and having even been offered a job at BTP at one point, i have always felt like Shawn has more than a little bit of the deranged cult leader in him...
when he offered me a job, around 2005, the first thing he sent me was a two page list of rules he expects his painters to follow...
not a mission statement about quality and service, but a list of lifestyle choices that are not acceptable to him...
not to mention having to move to Utah, of all places...

i could never sit through one of his videos, because his manner has always rubbed me the wrong way...
i always got a vision of him taking his painters out to a farm one day, and having them all drink some grape Flavor Aid...
i'm not trying to be flippant with that statement, either...
he really creeps me out...

if the guy can get his business in order, and have his studio actually start producing some quality work, on time (which is my biggest failing as a commission painter, too), then more power to them...
personally, i would never recommend BTP as they have operated over the last decade, and i recommend painters to the majority of people who contact me for commissions, because i am always booked, and am, more often than not, too expensive for the potential clients who inquire about my work...

just my 2 cents...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
i honestly don't think that Shawn is capable of eating any humble pie, and reforming his approach to business, MGS...
through ten years of watching them churn out mediocre work, and having even been offered a job at BTP at one point, i have always felt like Shawn has more than a little bit of the deranged cult leader in him...
when he offered me a job, around 2005, the first thing he sent me was a two page list of rules he expects his painters to follow...
not a mission statement about quality and service, but a list of lifestyle choices that are not acceptable to him...
not to mention having to move to Utah, of all places...

i could never sit through one of his videos, because his manner has always rubbed me the wrong way...
i always got a vision of him taking his painters out to a farm one day, and having them all drink some grape Flavor Aid...
i'm not trying to be flippant with that statement, either...
he really creeps me out...

if the guy can get his business in order, and have his studio actually start producing some quality work, on time (which is my biggest failing as a commission painter, too), then more power to them...
personally, i would never recommend BTP as they have operated over the last decade, and i recommend painters to the majority of people who contact me for commissions, because i am always booked, and am, more often than not, too expensive for the potential clients who inquire about my work...

just my 2 cents...

cheers
jah

I'd be interested in seeing those rules

I think we should steer away from anything potentially libellous or slanderous comments. Not to shut you guys down, but I don't think you should post that list. It may make things harder for Dakka/tenebre.

 Ustrello wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i honestly don't think that Shawn is capable of eating any humble pie, and reforming his approach to business, MGS...
through ten years of watching them churn out mediocre work, and having even been offered a job at BTP at one point, i have always felt like Shawn has more than a little bit of the deranged cult leader in him...
when he offered me a job, around 2005, the first thing he sent me was a two page list of rules he expects his painters to follow...
not a mission statement about quality and service, but a list of lifestyle choices that are not acceptable to him...
not to mention having to move to Utah, of all places...

i could never sit through one of his videos, because his manner has always rubbed me the wrong way...
i always got a vision of him taking his painters out to a farm one day, and having them all drink some grape Flavor Aid...
i'm not trying to be flippant with that statement, either...
he really creeps me out...

if the guy can get his business in order, and have his studio actually start producing some quality work, on time (which is my biggest failing as a commission painter, too), then more power to them...
personally, i would never recommend BTP as they have operated over the last decade, and i recommend painters to the majority of people who contact me for commissions, because i am always booked, and am, more often than not, too expensive for the potential clients who inquire about my work...

just my 2 cents...

cheers
jah

I'd be interested in seeing those rules

+1 I think we all would.

Given the fact the mods are scrutinizing what I say, I will not speculate on what dark and depraved behaviors he tried to force on you. The only other time I have heard of such a thing is when people have been indoctrinated into the Moonies and taken off for one of those mass weddings.

Good for you for not buying into that manifesto.

i don't have the list anymore...
i read it once, and walked away, very fast...

i don't think i've said anything libellous...
i just shared the feeling i got from my experience in correspondences, and giving the videos a chance...

like i said, if BTP can get their house in order, more power to them...

cheers
jah

TinBane wrote:
I think we should steer away from anything potentially libellous or slanderous comments. Not to shut you guys down, but I don't think you should post that list. It may make things harder for Dakka/tenebre.

Statements of fact are not libelous or slanderous, they are facts. Unless the poster signed an NDA, they are free for him to share.

If you want some examples of what would be libelous or slanderous, PM me and I will demonstrate the difference.

Tenebre is not going to have much of a problem recouping any judgement, I know how BTP is organized and what real property is owned by Shawn (through a public records search.) He has the wherewithal to make Tenebre whole again any time he chooses. So I don't think 'harder' enters into this.

Its not libelous if it is freely sent to anyone who might join the company. He sent it of his free will

 tenebre wrote:
I dont want to taint someones charity and kindness in this thread

A very wise decision, I truly hope some people don't follow you over to another thread with the same attitudes. Oh and I think you've dealt with this all very well, I hope at the end of it all you feel like you finally got what you wanted and maybe some justice too.

jah-joshua wrote:
i don't think i've said anything libellous...
i just shared the feeling i got from my experience in correspondences, and giving the videos a chance...

I don't think so either, you've shared your opinions.
If you had posted, what was purported to be the list, that might be libellous.

techsoldaten wrote:
Statements of fact are not libelous or slanderous, they are facts. Unless the poster signed an NDA, they are free for him to share.

If you want some examples of what would be libelous or slanderous, PM me and I will demonstrate the difference.

If he'd posted what was purported to be a list given to him nine years ago, by a would-be employer, how would you demonstrate that it was a fact?
Also, how sure are you that what constitutes libel in Utah, is what you are familiar with. I'm not American, nor a lawyer, but I know that states have different definitions of what constitutes libel.

I'm not sure about Utah, but given the claim could be considered injurious to a competitor, it's potentially defamation per se.

In any event, he doesn't have the list. But it's not as simple to prove that something like a list, is a fact. Does he have it notarized from the time he was given it? Is there chain of custody? Is there evidence that the list was part of BTP's practises?

You don't just go to court, and say "I got give this list by Shawn", and they decide to let you off libel, on the basis that your claim was unassailably fact...


My point is, let's not muddy the waters too much with claims, and keep this thread focused on tenebre's experience, and others like it.

 Casey's Law wrote:

 tenebre wrote:
I dont want to taint someones charity and kindness in this thread

A very wise decision, I truly hope some people don't follow you over to another thread with the same attitudes. Oh and I think you've dealt with this all very well, I hope at the end of it all you feel like you finally got what you wanted and maybe some justice too.

Agreed!

And I think focusing on the facts, simply what you signed a contract to have done, and what you received, has contributed greatly to the positive outcome you are getting.

For this thread, as I noted last page, I think it is far more effective to just let the facts speak for themselves, rather than to speculate...

So, just to make that very clear here, a quick mod note since it isn't present on this page:

Speculation about the character, or personal details (such as finances, marital status, etc) of the owner of BTP isn't considered on-topic for this thread. It is fine if you want to look into these things privately, and share details over email or the like, but it just doesn't have a place being discussed on Dakka.

This thread is for discussing of BTP as a business, and specifically their dealings with tenebre.

Thanks for understanding! If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me.

TinBane wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:
Statements of fact are not libelous or slanderous, they are facts. Unless the poster signed an NDA, they are free for him to share.

If you want some examples of what would be libelous or slanderous, PM me and I will demonstrate the difference.

If he'd posted what was purported to be a list given to him nine years ago, by a would-be employer, how would you demonstrate that it was a fact?
Also, how sure are you that what constitutes libel in Utah, is what you are familiar with. I'm not American, nor a lawyer, but I know that states have different definitions of what constitutes libel.

I'm not sure about Utah, but given the claim could be considered injurious to a competitor, it's potentially defamation per se.

In any event, he doesn't have the list. But it's not as simple to prove that something like a list, is a fact. Does he have it notarized from the time he was given it? Is there chain of custody? Is there evidence that the list was part of BTP's practises?

You don't just go to court, and say "I got give this list by Shawn", and they decide to let you off libel, on the basis that your claim was unassailably fact...


My point is, let's not muddy the waters too much with claims, and keep this thread focused on tenebre's experience, and others like it.

I live in the US and work in an industry where I need to know the law. We're talking about Utah annotated code section 76-9-404, right? They decriminalized libel in Utah maybe 10 years ago, but defamation is still on the books. It's a misdemeanor and something I am prepared to handle should the need arise.

In cases of libel / defamation, the burden is not really to demonstrate what you said is fact, but for someone else to demonstrate what you said is false and injurious. Utah defamation allows for things like humiliation, but honestly - I keep citing things he has published to a broadcast medium. I do not see myself or anyone who has contributed to this thread running afoul of that. You should see the stuff Utah legislators say about each other, which is a nuclear weapon to the rubber bands that have been slung here.

It's true, I am not an attorney, but red flags are usually easy to spot. But yeah, if anyone wants to share some manifesto you got from a previous / potential employer, feel free. I am in touch right now with enough former BTP people that I can get it verified without too much of an issue.

In the meantime, I know we all want to keep the focus on getting tenebre his money back, but let's not go around hitting panic buttons that stifle what people have to say. There's a balance to be struck between keeping the pressure on and keeping BTP from going out of business.

 jah-joshua wrote:
i could never sit through one of his videos, because his manner has always rubbed me the wrong way...

I'm glad I'm not the only one... I've never been able to watch BTP's videos because of that as well.

jeez, i am really sorry i made that post now, and made RiTides drop the mod-hammer, yet posts are still going on about my off-topic statements...
i think we've exhausted any valid points by now, and can get back to Tenebre's dilemma...

sorry for derailing your thread, man...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
jeez, i am really sorry i made that post now, and made RiTides drop the mod-hammer, yet posts are still going on about my off-topic statements...
i think we've exhausted any valid points by now, and can get back to Tenebre's dilemma...

sorry for derailing your thread, man...

cheers
jah

I don't think your post was off topic as it actually refers to the business side of BTP which is relevant to this thread. The modhammer was dropped (as far as I understand) in relation to previous comments about speculation about his personal financial and marital details and wild speculation/discussion that they might be going bankrupt.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
jeez, i am really sorry i made that post now, and made RiTides drop the mod-hammer, yet posts are still going on about my off-topic statements...
i think we've exhausted any valid points by now, and can get back to Tenebre's dilemma...

sorry for derailing your thread, man...

cheers
jah

I don't think your post was off topic as it actually refers to the business side of BTP which is relevant to this thread. The modhammer was dropped (as far as I understand) in relation to previous comments about speculation about his personal financial and marital details and wild speculation/discussion that they might be going bankrupt.

Right, and that was my fault. It was my interpretation of the events depicted in the BTP videos. It was speculation and not appropriate for this forum.

Thank you to all the people who flagged that post. I will keep further posts limited to facts. I now have quite a few and will start sharing when the time is right.

Everyone else should totally continue on about how unfairly tenebre has been treated as a client of Blue Table Painting, the underwhelming outcomes they have achieved, and the injustice of the situation.

 techsoldaten wrote:

I live in the US and work in an industry where I need to know the law. We're talking about Utah annotated code section 76-9-404, right? They decriminalized libel in Utah maybe 10 years ago, but defamation is still on the books. It's a misdemeanor and something I am prepared to handle should the need arise.

In cases of libel / defamation, the burden is not really to demonstrate what you said is fact, but for someone else to demonstrate what you said is false and injurious. Utah defamation allows for things like humiliation, but honestly - I keep citing things he has published to a broadcast medium. I do not see myself or anyone who has contributed to this thread running afoul of that. You should see the stuff Utah legislators say about each other, which is a nuclear weapon to the rubber bands that have been slung here.

It's true, I am not an attorney, but red flags are usually easy to spot. But yeah, if anyone wants to share some manifesto you got from a previous / potential employer, feel free. I am in touch right now with enough former BTP people that I can get it verified without too much of an issue.

In the meantime, I know we all want to keep the focus on getting tenebre his money back, but let's not go around hitting panic buttons that stifle what people have to say. There's a balance to be struck between keeping the pressure on and keeping BTP from going out of business.

I'm not trying to stifle what we say. But if there's some creepy manifesto, does it matter to the facts on hand? And whether you are willing to handle the potential repercussions, have you considered that in many jurisdictions (sorry, not sure about the US/Utah) treat the site that hosts the material, as the publisher, and therefore liable.

What's the net benefit to the community? Is it worth the risk of causing headaches for the admins and mods of dakka, in order to post information that may show that 9 years ago Shawn put onerous rules into contracts with employees? Potentially, posting that information in this thread, may give them some grounds to demand the thread be removed.

That's more my point. Feel free to defame whomever you wish. But be aware that you may inadvertently, and without meaning to, make more work for other people, and have consequences on other people.

Now I'm not a lawyer, nor a US lawyer, nor a Utah lawyer. But I think it's important to balance the benefit to the community to seeing such a document (or we could just take his word for it, I'm fine with that, TBH) versus the potential fallout.

Now in BTPs credit, they haven't exactly gone anywhere near mentioning lawyers, as far as I'm aware. I imagine the repercussions in the community, for being seen to be trying to stifle discussion, could be extreme. That said, you might be at less risk than the other poster in any event, because you wouldn't be considered a competitor. As a competitor, it might be deemed defamation per se, which means that you don't need to demonstrate actual damages. In other words, you just need to demonstrate that what was said was false, not that it caused damages. Being decriminalised, simply means that it's a civil matter. It doesn't mean that you can defame people as much as you'd like.

Now I'm all for people ragging on someone when they deserve it. But honestly, how much does the document being posted, add to the discussion?

Okay, I think we really have beat this horse to death, so as a final note...

Rule #2 of Dakka is "Stay on Topic". Any further posts discussing what is on or off-topic for this thread, personal information of any person (religion, marital status, personal finances), or general legal definitions, will simply be deleted.

Again, thanks for understanding, and please for the last time... no more posts that fit any of the categories above. Otherwise, this thread will have to be locked, which I don't think anyone wants. Please allow it to remain open so that tenebre can update his status when appropriate... thanks.

Per the mod's note. Response sent to author of previous comment via PM.

@tenebre Let's see some pictures of the repaint.

This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.

"I offered four solutions".

All but one of which he withdrew, right?

That's my understanding, based on tenebre's comments and latest video.
It's really not a good idea for Shawn to share too much information with people who contact him about this issue.

 themonk wrote:
This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.

Shouldn't one of us get a copy of that or something? I mean while he is offering. Also couldn't this potentially be used to help OP's case? For example of Shawn just provided emails to people who asked that made him

look good and OP look bad and skewed info isn't that illegal? Or shouldn't people get the documents and compare what Shawn is handing out to the public to see if it has been altered in anyway, as I am pretty sure that

that is illegal. To me getting possible proof that he is breaking the law should really help OP's case, or at least make BTP admit the problems.

Then again, maybe I am wrong, I dont know.

He will give out private communication.

ClockworkChaos wrote:

 themonk wrote:
This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.

Shouldn't one of us get a copy of that or something? I mean while he is offering. Also couldn't this potentially be used to help OP's case? For example of Shawn just provided emails to people who asked that made him

look good and OP look bad and skewed info isn't that illegal? Or shouldn't people get the documents and compare what Shawn is handing out to the public to see if it has been altered in anyway, as I am pretty sure that

that is illegal. To me getting possible proof that he is breaking the law should really help OP's case, or at least make BTP admit the problems.

Then again, maybe I am wrong, I dont know.

I have no idea. Generally though, it's risky to give out potentially private information, such as the contents of private emails, especially where it's in a business context.
It's certainly not a good look, and if it's true then BTP should be castigated for sharing such information :(

If someone has a copy, maybe they can PM tenebre so he can see what's being shared, and whether it's being altered.

TinBane wrote:

ClockworkChaos wrote:

 themonk wrote:
This was posted by BTP in the comments section of the video they posted earlier today.

Shouldn't one of us get a copy of that or something? I mean while he is offering. Also couldn't this potentially be used to help OP's case? For example of Shawn just provided emails to people who asked that made him

look good and OP look bad and skewed info isn't that illegal? Or shouldn't people get the documents and compare what Shawn is handing out to the public to see if it has been altered in anyway, as I am pretty sure that

that is illegal. To me getting possible proof that he is breaking the law should really help OP's case, or at least make BTP admit the problems.

Then again, maybe I am wrong, I dont know.

I have no idea. Generally though, it's risky to give out potentially private information, such as the contents of private emails, especially where it's in a business context.
It's certainly not a good look, and if it's true then BTP should be castigated for sharing such information :(

If someone has a copy, maybe they can PM tenebre so he can see what's being shared, and whether it's being altered.

Agreed. Also a copy should be acquired and given to tenebre regardless just because it couldn't hurt. At best it shows questionable character of BTP at worse it shows forging of private documents. Also Shawn may

eventually smarten up and stop handing them out so I suppose someone should get them quick (someone who Shawn would actually give the documents to not the many of us who he probably scorns).

My concern that it might hurt tenebre's legal actions when he publicly detailed the correspondence he's had with BTP, if it's bad for BTP to share communication surely it would be bad for tenebre to do it as well?

I'm definitely eager to see some more of the retouched models though.

Well...this is sharing them with potential customers

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
My concern that it might hurt tenebre's legal actions when he publicly detailed the correspondence he's had with BTP, if it's bad for BTP to share communication surely it would be bad for tenebre to do it as well?

I'm definitely eager to see some more of the retouched models though.

I was suggesting that someone share BTPs disclosure with tenebre. Not that he share his version of the private correspondence.