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The fact is that BTP does a semi-decent tabletop quality - and nothing much better.

As long as they limit themselves to painting something that will only be used on a tabletop - never for display, nor used in videos, then they are okay.

But the problem kicks in when they are hired to do something better, and promise that they can - when in fact they cannot.

A decent paint job style can be used by a team - but better paint jobs are individual - so when Tenebre's original painter left... BTP primed over and started over, with terrible results.

Then they tried to justify it, rather than admitting that their reaction to losing a miniatures painter was to try a bait and switch.

But as long as all you looking for is an army to slap on the table... well, it's better than an unpainted army.

Kinda.

The Auld Grump

heya folks i think a good idea for this thread would be too post all the awesome painting services in the states that we know of that are good/fair priced /and care about there customers that way if some one dose run across this thread they have a direction and dont have the same problem tenebre had with btp being the 1st site when googled for painting services in the usa most probably just go too them for work .and use btp if that what you are looking for but might wanna look into others 1st before committing too there service

1.http://www.frontlinegaming.org/paint-service/
2.http://www.gmmstudios.net/
3.http://awesomepaintjob.com/index.cfm
sry if i have missed anyone here if there are any i have missed feel free too post em lets at least inform folks of what a good painting services are and where too reach them online .one last thought just because you have done 8000 army's dose not give you a pass on 1 bad one

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The fact is that BTP does a semi-decent tabletop quality - and nothing much better.

As long as they limit themselves to painting something that will only be used on a tabletop - never for display, nor used in videos, then they are okay.

But the problem kicks in when they are hired to do something better, and promise that they can - when in fact they cannot.

A decent paint job style can be used by a team - but better paint jobs are individual - so when Tenebre's original painter left... BTP primed over and started over, with terrible results.

Then they tried to justify it, rather than admitting that their reaction to losing a miniatures painter was to try a bait and switch.

But as long as all you looking for is an army to slap on the table... well, it's better than an unpainted army.

Kinda.

The Auld Grump

Feels weird to be saying this, but: BTP has been flogged to death. At this point, saying they are mediocre / bad / unjust / untalented / overpriced / whatever is just repetition.

I was looking at some of the original BTP videos over the weekend. Ones where Shawn was making Tyranid biomasses, from like 7 years ago. Definitely portrayed a very different situation, sounded like someone who cares.

I know we are not supposed to get into anything personal in this thread, but something that really sticks out to me in all this is how can you tell if a service has changed? There was a time when the videos there were pragmatic and showed how to actually do neat things with miniatures. Now the videos are very marketing focused, with annoying catch phrases, personality videos and other things that don't have much to do with making miniatures.

If we've learned anything from all this, maybe it's to look at a company's video channel and watch for recent examples of practical work? It's a red flag when you get the other type of video.

 tenebre wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
I think we should be asking BTP to make a statement to the community. This is sliding out of focus exactly how it has before when they've attracted heat. Unless something new is done here then it's just going to keep happening. How about a letter asking for a statement, names/usernames attached in petition and then emailed directly to BTP?

So far they have made statements that are misrepresentations or just outright not true. not sure how this would matter?

Keep in mind BTP asserts I received what i deserved and they did nothing wrong (outside of a few QC issues). This is the problem at hand. and in this situation, which that mentality, I dont see how anything would make a difference. They have said publicly that my project doesn't matter because they do so many.

Honestly, I don't think it would make any difference, I was just trying to breathe some life back into the thread. Plus I think it sucks that this hasn't changed anything, it's just going to fall out of public attention and BTP will continue on like nothing happened. I hope at least that you can use the law to set some precedent against them that'll force their actions and protect future customers.

I strongly think if this thread withers away without a new thread being formed that collects info on studios and painters then that would be a great loss to the community. Something should be formed, maybe a stickied thread or a constantly updated one with all the studios on it and constant updates of reviews- ie studio one had 5 positive reviews and 2 negative, studio 2 has 20 positive reviews and 0 negative ect so people can make informed choices, It would require a lot of upkeep but honestly its the least dakka could do to prevent more people from being lied to and ripped off by places like BTP.

There is a dakka painting services thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612233.page

Would it be a good place to start?

People are talking about not letting this thread die, and keeping issues with BTP fresh. So let's all remember the last monster thread we had about BTP:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/477183.page

What started as a curious inquiry to their value turned into a massive hullabaloo about the hiring practices and work environment.

In that thread I talked briefly about my experience with them, that was overall good. But it seems like all the work I've seen them do since then has been of really poor quality. Someone in that thread mentioned their biggest weakness is consistency, and here with Tenebres experience we have a perfect example.

 CptJake wrote:
There is a dakka painting services thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612233.page

Would it be a good place to start?

It is a start but does it really hold people accountable? I mean I think there needs to be like a "plus" version of this where not only is a service listed and its pictures but people can comment on them, give negative or positive reviews and all of that can be kept up to date on the OP. Ie Studio 1, does blah blah and blah, 10 positve, 1 negative, overall rating by reviewers 8.3/10 or something like that. I mean heck maybe an entire section should just be about painters, not techniques but literally businesses and a reviews of them. Or that could just be me, I like when buisnesses have to be very accountable and flaws/scams can be presented to the public in an easily accessible way (versus lets say BTP which alters info, hides details and bashes those who have a bad time with them). Stuff should be in the light and kept in the light for better or for worse.

 StormBringer328 wrote:
Wow, what an experience! I was actually thinking about having a few things worked on and was looking at them to do it. Only because I've never had a commission job done and they were the ones that first came to mind. A lot of it looks like lazy, rushed work. If they were ever a good painting service, they seem to have lost their heart.

If I were you I would find a way to dispute this. I can understand not wanting to - feeling like you won something just by getting your stuff back. But someone needs to give BTP a bug up their ass so they change their ways. I can't believe they basically hold your minis ransom!?!?

So almost like a yelp for commission painters

 techsoldaten wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The fact is that BTP does a semi-decent tabletop quality - and nothing much better.

As long as they limit themselves to painting something that will only be used on a tabletop - never for display, nor used in videos, then they are okay.

But the problem kicks in when they are hired to do something better, and promise that they can - when in fact they cannot.

A decent paint job style can be used by a team - but better paint jobs are individual - so when Tenebre's original painter left... BTP primed over and started over, with terrible results.

Then they tried to justify it, rather than admitting that their reaction to losing a miniatures painter was to try a bait and switch.

But as long as all you looking for is an army to slap on the table... well, it's better than an unpainted army.

Kinda.

The Auld Grump

Feels weird to be saying this, but: BTP has been flogged to death. At this point, saying they are mediocre / bad / unjust / untalented / overpriced / whatever is just repetition.

I was looking at some of the original BTP videos over the weekend. Ones where Shawn was making Tyranid biomasses, from like 7 years ago. Definitely portrayed a very different situation, sounded like someone who cares.

I know we are not supposed to get into anything personal in this thread, but something that really sticks out to me in all this is how can you tell if a service has changed? There was a time when the videos there were pragmatic and showed how to actually do neat things with miniatures. Now the videos are very marketing focused, with annoying catch phrases, personality videos and other things that don't have much to do with making miniatures.

If we've learned anything from all this, maybe it's to look at a company's video channel and watch for recent examples of practical work? It's a red flag when you get the other type of video.

Not exactly flogging BTP here - in general the amount they charge is kind of okay for a mediocre paint job.

And a mediocre paint job is a lot better than unpainted.

I actually think that at their low end BTP provides a product that is reasonably priced for what you receive.

You pay for a 2 and you get a 2.

The problem is that the OP paid for a 4, 5, or 6 and got a 2 or maybe a 2.2.

Part of the root may be that BTP does not allocate the amount of time needed to produce better than a 2 - they need to get the product out the door to make room for the next product.

The other major problems are lack of communication and not having a protocol in place to repair failed product.

I am not looking at slamming BTP here - I am looking at what they can do to improve customer relations - even if it is only them saying 'we have a low end paint job at a low end price' - much like the old e-Machine advertisements.

At the low end... they are worth the money. You get what they promise - and this is not a problem.

Alternately, they could tell folks that they are currently at capacity, and cut their workload to something that they can sustain with good results.

When I paint for others I only have two levels - tabletop and character.

I do not claim that I can produce a Golden Demon winner - I have won local painting competitions, but I know full well that I would be clobbered in anything much larger. (And I annoy my girlfriend by calling myself a craftsman, not an artist. She calls it art, I call it craft. But people like Victoria Lamb create art.)

So I do not claim anything beyond what I can produce.

When I have too many projects I tell people that it will be a while before I can even begin on their project, maybe they should try elsewhere. (More often, I offer to give them some lessons on how to paint. Depressingly few are willing to pick up the paints themselves.)

That said, I do produce better paint jobs than what the OP received after sending BTP thousands of dollars. My tabletop paint job is better than what they were claiming was display quality.

I would have been ashamed to foist the paint jobs off on a customer, let alone trying to defend those paint jobs.

But at their low end, they are producing a product that is worth what they charge.

I think that an impartial review of various miniatures painters - allowing for difference in prices - would be an excellent resource.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* There are folks that paint historical miniatures that charge a like amount, though most often for lacquer wash paint jobs, not drybrushing over primer.

There is a certain amount of accountability when studios place their work up for public scrutiny. You'll notice that garden ninja, GMM, golem, myself awaken realms, your well painted army, etc all do this. We want to be known for what we do. You'll also notice that BTP's thread for the same purpose died a death pretty quickly. The sales spiel didn't wash when other painters were levelling critique.

ClockworkChaos wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
There is a dakka painting services thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612233.page

Would it be a good place to start?

It is a start but does it really hold people accountable? I mean I think there needs to be like a "plus" version of this where not only is a service listed and its pictures but people can comment on them, give negative or positive reviews and all of that can be kept up to date on the OP. Ie Studio 1, does blah blah and blah, 10 positve, 1 negative, overall rating by reviewers 8.3/10 or something like that. I mean heck maybe an entire section should just be about painters, not techniques but literally businesses and a reviews of them. Or that could just be me, I like when buisnesses have to be very accountable and flaws/scams can be presented to the public in an easily accessible way (versus lets say BTP which alters info, hides details and bashes those who have a bad time with them). Stuff should be in the light and kept in the light for better or for worse.

I did try to start a thread to discuss such things over here, so that tenebre's thread could remain on-topic, but no-one seemed interested...

This makes interesting reading.

what i find odd. Is that there seems to be reports like the one above randomly all over yet, when you speak out, fanatical supporters come out and attack anyone who speaks against BT.

As you can see one such supporter literally gave them a nice large order just to "prove me wrong" or in spite.

I mean when such bad service (let alone quality) is evident., not to mention their public poor treatment of gamers, like myself, why would anyone want to support them? They are neither the cheapest nor the best so it makes no sense.

as a consumer, if a company treats someone poorly, I take my business elsewhere, but in this case, and the fact they have been doing this for so many years it is just bizarre.

When did the consumer become beholden to the big business? This should never be the case.

I agree a review system is needed and it need to be out there with pictures etc to help people make informed decisions.

I think you're just seeing the vocal outliers here.

The more you know, and all that...

This really got me...

From Shawn himself no less...

"I don't get in arguments with clients. I simply ask them what they want done. If there is a problem I can give a refund or make corrections. Since Nick has made this issue public, I say "Nick, what do you want me to do?" "

Where is this customer service now Shawn? Why not give a refund in Tenebre's case?

 Flippa wrote:
This really got me...

From Shawn himself no less...

"I don't get in arguments with clients. I simply ask them what they want done. If there is a problem I can give a refund or make corrections. Since Nick has made this issue public, I say "Nick, what do you want me to do?" "

Where is this customer service now Shawn? Why not give a refund in Tenebre's case?

he said because i "chose to move it to the court of public opinion"

He is literally teaching the customer a lesson ....

And so did Nick from Chapterhouse.

It strikes me as a little petulant from Shawn, and in all fairness, he is no businessman. He has let this become personal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also quoted from Shawn, even after someone went public on him. (He seems to really hate that)

"Someone brought up the Tau project. This is similar to that in this way: I offered (and gave) a full and unconditional refund (in cash) to that guy, too, within a day after he complained to me personally. Following day: complaining publicly.

Let me be clear about my tone. It is conciliatory. I am not railing or arguing. My hands are open."

So offered a full refund on this project even after going public. I would like to know the difference?

the more i visit this thread the more i wonder how they still are in business painting miniatures . FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS BTP

 Flippa wrote:
And so did Nick from Chapterhouse.

...
So offered a full refund on this project even after going public. I would like to know the difference?

Most likely Shawn was aware that Nick could have serious impact in the gaming community. Guess he didn't know who Tenebre was.
Or, times have changed and money's too tight these days.
Or, he was just feeling gakky.
Or, he has some form of dementia and thinks this was actually good work for the standard specified?

Eh, pick one or more.

I feel so bad for whoever has been suckered by these fools.

I have unsubbed from both BTP and MWG, and am on a campaign to spread your story.

as it is now, BTP is just growing in popularity, with the new end times stuff coming out....

Thanks
Austin

 Redbad wrote:
I feel so bad for whoever has been suckered by these fools.

I have unsubbed from both BTP and MWG, and am on a campaign to spread your story.

as it is now, BTP is just growing in popularity, with the new end times stuff coming out....

Thanks
Austin

Out of curiosity, where can I read what the heck happened with MWG for this reaction? Or is this a reaction because MWG has always been supportive of BTP? Because last I checked, MWG was still awesome.

winterdyne wrote:

 Flippa wrote:
And so did Nick from Chapterhouse.

...
So offered a full refund on this project even after going public. I would like to know the difference?

Most likely Shawn was aware that Nick could have serious impact in the gaming community. Guess he didn't know who Tenebre was.
Or, times have changed and money's too tight these days.
Or, he was just feeling gakky.
Or, he has some form of dementia and thinks this was actually good work for the standard specified?

Eh, pick one or more.

Could it be size/cost of the commission and cash flow problems? Maybe this one was too expensive for him to want to come up with the cash (or even be able to come up with the cash) to offer a refund?

(just guessing, no clue about the size of the commission from Nick not any clue about BTPs financial situation).

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 Redbad wrote:
I feel so bad for whoever has been suckered by these fools.

I have unsubbed from both BTP and MWG, and am on a campaign to spread your story.

as it is now, BTP is just growing in popularity, with the new end times stuff coming out....

Thanks
Austin

Out of curiosity, where can I read what the heck happened with MWG for this reaction? Or is this a reaction because MWG has always been supportive of BTP? Because last I checked, MWG was still awesome.

Look at around page 17-18 of this thread.

They wanted to plug BTP, and refused any "negative" or "damaging" comments about the stuff that BTP paints, because they wanted it to be a "positive" review.

Thanks
Austin

 Redbad wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:

 Redbad wrote:
I feel so bad for whoever has been suckered by these fools.

I have unsubbed from both BTP and MWG, and am on a campaign to spread your story.

as it is now, BTP is just growing in popularity, with the new end times stuff coming out....

Thanks
Austin

Out of curiosity, where can I read what the heck happened with MWG for this reaction? Or is this a reaction because MWG has always been supportive of BTP? Because last I checked, MWG was still awesome.

Look at around page 17-18 of this thread.

They wanted to plug BTP, and refused any "negative" or "damaging" comments about the stuff that BTP paints, because they wanted it to be a "positive" review.

Thanks
Austin

feth. I have read it. I still have trouble believing it. feth me.

have a new blog about the repaint:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/624649.page#7382552

Please people keep the discussion about the events with BTP here and only comment on the repaint on the blog.

Wow. So BTP even messed with CHS.

Such irony considering CHS took on GW and came out of the long war.

Edit: Oops, posted that as Casey posted. Em... oops.

Regardless, the repaint looks 10 times better. It's as if BTP only hastily basecoated and then the new studio actually painted.

No I just meant keep posting that stuff here so Ten's repaint blog is only about the repaint and not about what happened. Don't want to drag two threads down especially when the blog should be about congratulating Ten and applauding Frontline.

Oh.

Anyways, it is awesome Frontline did it.