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I present you with BTPs 10 levels of paint options!

Lvl1: We will smear a color of your choice* on your models.

Lvl2: We will basecoat your models black before smearing a color of your choice*

Lvl3: Not only will we base coat your model, but we'll let you pick 2 different colors* of choice!

Lvl4: Things are now interesting. We will basecoat your model, give you 3 colors of choice*, and we'll even attempt to paint within the lines!

Lvl5: We will basecoat, paint on 4-5 colors of your choice*, and paint specific parts of the model in specific colors.

Lvl6: As above, but we'll also dip your models!

Lvl7: As above, but you'll be entitled to 2 layers of dipping!

Lvl8: This is Table-top quality. Looks good from 3 ft away. 4-5 colors of choice on the areas of your choice and 2 layers of dipping. We'll even use the fine tip brushes to pick out some details too!

Lvl9: This is professional painting quality. One step below Golden Daemon.

Lvl10: Golden Daemon Winning paintjobs!

*Color of Your Choice: we reserve the right to alter colors without warning so as to maintain what we believe to be maximum cool factor.



Well thats what it seems like what you got anyway

Hahahahha you make my day with that list

LvL 10 painting will get you a golden daemon winning model such as this

Who is KFB, and were can I read their interview with spensor?

I've heard this refrenced to a few times, but don't know who KFB is.

 Ustrello wrote:

I think it is a ploy to make it seem like OP paid for middle of the road service. But I know he ripped the painting guide level so shawn won't be able to use that as his defense since it was done obviously after the controversy and waaaay after OP contracted them to paint the army.

I don't think it's got anything to do with the legal claim; I suspect he knows he's lost that. It'll be so that he lie to any new customers that find the video on gogle about what was actually ordered "he asked for a level 4 and got it."

I wonder how he's going to deal with the confusion for any customers that are mid order or re-ordering?

Herzlos wrote:
It'll be so that he lie to any new customers that find the video on gogle about what was actually ordered "he asked for a level 4 and got it."

That was my thinking as well, to confuse future customers about the levels so that tenebre's quality complaints don't hurt them as much.

I'd hate to see what happens when someone pays for a Level 10 army and the same thing happens again. Level 2-20 then? lol

10-20 xD

 Ustrello wrote:

So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.

There was quite a bit of implied victim blaming in there... that's just absolutely disgusting.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

So BTP just changed their scale from 2-7 to 2-10, seems like shawn is trying to claw at any sort of defense now.

There was quite a bit of implied victim blaming in there... that's just absolutely disgusting.

It's contemptible.

It's all just so sly. He refuses to set things right, he gets his buddies to try and boost his rep and now he's implying that ten's army was a lower 'scale' than it was, that many of their own works pictured are now of a lower scale than they actually were just days ago and that it was all ten's fault for making 'odd requests'...

This is just repulsive, scheming and downright underhand.

Snake oil peddling. The man is a crook.

I just watched the video... are we sure they've changed their painting scales? They've always been vague about the higher level stuff because they've said the highest level they offer isn't actually supposed to be "the best", it's just the most they offer for sale.

Watching that video it didn't seem nearly as malicious as you guys are making out. I think they're just copping more flak recently for showcasing lower quality paint jobs and weird paint jobs (not just Tenebre's) so I can understand them wanting to clarify that they paint low quality stuff for people who want low quality stuff (level 2 is what he stated in the vid).

That's not the issue with Tenebre though, the issue is that he paid for a higher level than what he got.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I just watched the video... are we sure they've changed their painting scales? They've always been vague about the higher level stuff because they've said the highest level they offer isn't actually supposed to be "the best", it's just the most they offer for sale.

They solidified and clearly described, in a video now removed, a scale of 2-7, with 7 being a golden demon winning level, 6 being a phenomenally good paint job etc. If you move your scales from 2-7 to 2-10, you shunt the values of the levels down via adding scales to the equation.

The midpoint (mean and median) of 2-7 is 4.5, the midpoint of 2-10 is 6. The OP here paid for 4 through 6 on the old scale, which was mid range through to one short of golden demon winning... in the new range this is reduced to below average (4, now well below 6) to his display pieces being painted 6 (which is shunted down from just below golden demon to average).

It's quite disgusting and entirely sly.


Blue Table claimed, in the old video, Level 3 was tabletop, making anything above that 'premium'. Now level 6 is the new middle ground. It's really really angered me.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I just watched the video... are we sure they've changed their painting scales? They've always been vague about the higher level stuff because they've said the highest level they offer isn't actually supposed to be "the best", it's just the most they offer for sale.

They solidified and clearly described, in a video now removed, a scale of 2-7, with 7 being a golden demon winning level, 6 being a phenomenally good paint job etc. If you move your scales from 2-7 to 2-10, you shunt the values of the levels down via adding scales to the equation.

The midpoint (mean and median) of 2-7 is 4.5, the midpoint of 2-10 is 6. The OP here paid for 4 through 6 on the old scale, which was mid range through to one short of golden demon winning... in the new range this is reduced to below average (4, now well below 6) to his display pieces being painted 6 (which is shunted down from just below golden demon to average).

It's quite disgusting and entirely sly.

Are you sure on that? I seem to remember a document or spreadsheet back when Tenebre first posted his video with level info and could have sworn that it had more than 7 levels on it.

If someone has the older document that outlined levels I'd like to see that. Saying level 7 is golden demon winning and level 6 is one shy of golden demon is quite a claim that I think deserves to be confirmed if we're going to repeat it (when what I've seen of level 6's in their own showcase is no better than I can paint).

Now level 6 is the new middle ground. It's really really angered me.

Have they actually said that?

BTP used to have a scale to 7, but they changed it from 1-10, only offering 2-6 themselves. This is not a recent change.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

It's contemptible.

It's all just so sly. He refuses to set things right, he gets his buddies to try and boost his rep and now he's implying that ten's army was a lower 'scale' than it was, that many of their own works pictured are now of a lower scale than they actually were just days ago and that it was all ten's fault for making 'odd requests'...

This is just repulsive, scheming and downright underhand.

Snake oil peddling. The man is a crook.

Well honestly I have never in my entire life been treated so bad by any merchant. I Followed the same process you do for a car (get another shop to quote repair work for botched job) I had 3. I then asked for the LOWEST of the 3 amounts as a refund to repair. and this is what happened.
I had a friend with a cabinet contractor who had serious issues. The company paid another company to redo the entire job. (this was after only 1 screw up) now this was about a $25k job, but thats how you maintain your business in the face of a mistake.
And he continues to publicly attack the customer, and provide misinformation.

Random, I almost went with YWPA on this but decided against it due to shipping cost and lack of ability to maintain contact. Boy was i wrong. (however before payment BTP answers emails super fast and returns phone calls)

 M0ff3l wrote:
BTP used to have a scale to 7, but they changed it from 1-10, only offering 2-6 themselves. This is not a recent change.

You do realize that BTP had a 2-7 scale, including a video saying that until it was taken down two weeks ago? That is a pretty recent change.

Not in any way trying to defend them, I think what they did here has really shown the true colors of BTP. But I do remember a couple of years ago when I was still watching their videos that they used to grade models on a 1-10 scale, and that they did 2-6. I remember it because I thought it was weird that they would use a scale that had way higher levels than they did, so why not just call it 1-5?

@M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such. AFAIK this most certainly is a recent change, and it follows the current pattern of behaviour from BTP that we are seeing elsewhere quite closely.

I feel pretty bad for the OP and am glad that he found someone to redo his models, I was considering having BTP do work for me, and am glad I came upon this story and the many others who have come forward since. I wouldn't want BTP to work on my army, the trust isn't there.

Hexwolf wrote:
@M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such. AFAIK this most certainly is a recent change, and it follows the current pattern of behaviour from BTP that we are seeing elsewhere quite closely.

I feel pretty bad for the OP and am glad that he found someone to redo his models, I was considering having BTP do work for me, and am glad I came upon this story and the many others who have come forward since. I wouldn't want BTP to work on my army, the trust isn't there.

I think honestly he is trying to justify his trust in sending all of his models, which are nicely converted and green stuffed as I could tell from the pictures, and 500 dollars to BTP right when this was breaking.

Hexwolf wrote:
@M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such.

It cuts both ways, I'm sure I remember BTP referring to levels higher than 7 in the past, but BTP have taken down their levels videos and I can't find the spreadsheet I had from them previously... so... I'd like to see proof either way if someone has actually saved the video or spreadsheet.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gkXVuUz4E

It really picks up around 6 minutes into the video. There he describes level 0-10.

Also, somehow Shawn seems more genuine in this older video than in the new ones. Less Cult leader more enthusiastic miniatures painter

They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.

6 is the highest level they do, and some of the level 6 items here are absolutely horrid. Ergo... their highest ability level is still worse than most commission painters, yet you pay a premium for it

 RiTides wrote:
They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.

It really seems the "7 is GD level" is something the community has made up rather than what Shawn has said. In that video he said 8 would be something to enter in to a competition and it might win some competitions (which I interpret as maybe winning some random local competition, not something that would win a golden demon).

I'm not trying to defend BTP but I'm just trying to keep things in perspective. BTP aren't a high end painting studio, they are a "we'll paint your whole army up quickly so you don't have to" studio and as far as I can see they aren't making any outlandish claims of producing golden demon winning standards. The only thing I can really accuse them of doing on that they fluff up level 6 to be something awesome when it's really only what I'd consider a high end table top standard. But even in that video linked above he says 7 is "display quality", not "zomg this is so awesome you'll wet your pants".

I just think we should stick to attacking BTP for things they deserve to be attacked for, like not giving Tenebre his moneys worth, not sticking to the agreement, going over time and not working with the customer when they've clearly screwed up.

 RiTides wrote:
6 is the highest level they do, and some of the level 6 items here are absolutely horrid. Ergo... their highest ability level is still worse than most commission painters, yet you pay a premium for it

To be fair, the likes of winterdyne can and will paint you something far better than level 6 but will also charge you more to do it. I think Tenebre paid $250 for his level 6 bull monster thingy, that sounds like a lot, but that's like, what, 15 hours or less work? That's really not a lot to produce a high end work on a large model that will probably consume a few hours just to assemble. My Trygon which is hardly painted to a high standard took me about 20 hours from opening the box to finished model, I expect a pro to work faster than that but not a lot faster.

 Gorlack wrote:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gkXVuUz4E

It really picks up around 6 minutes into the video. There he describes level 0-10.

Also, somehow Shawn seems more genuine in this older video than in the new ones. Less Cult leader more enthusiastic miniatures painter

So he says lvl 7 is display quality worthy of a book cover etc. So again... what are 8-10? like are they real? talk? actually fire lasers?

 tenebre wrote:

 Gorlack wrote:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gkXVuUz4E

It really picks up around 6 minutes into the video. There he describes level 0-10.

Also, somehow Shawn seems more genuine in this older video than in the new ones. Less Cult leader more enthusiastic miniatures painter

So he says lvl 7 is display quality worthy of a book cover etc. So again... what are 8-10? like are they real? talk? actually fire lasers?

"display quality" has no dictionary definition as far as I'm aware so it's all just a subjective argument... but to me "display quality" would just be something I actually put on my display shelf vs something I just stick in my army cases. Something I'm happy for someone to look at closely, but it probably wouldn't stand up to high resolution photography (which tends to show up flaws more than the naked eye does).

Really high end stuff is the sort of stuff that you can take a good close up picture with a decent camera, zoom in to maybe 2 or 3 times and it still holds up well... I figure that's what they mean when they talk about being higher than "display quality".

8-10 is the amount of years you wait to get them back

 tenebre wrote:

 Gorlack wrote:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gkXVuUz4E

It really picks up around 6 minutes into the video. There he describes level 0-10.

Also, somehow Shawn seems more genuine in this older video than in the new ones. Less Cult leader more enthusiastic miniatures painter

So he says lvl 7 is display quality worthy of a book cover etc. So again... what are 8-10? like are they real? talk? actually fire lasers?

No Idea! Like I said, I'm not supporting them in this case, I think they have treated you basically as bad as possible without doing outright stealing. I just wanted the facts about this flawed level system out there.

Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.

Yeah those side by sides are pretty damning. It's appauling how little work is put into the Bull (except bad work on his Disco-Horns (tm)).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.

It really seems the "7 is GD level" is something the community has made up rather than what Shawn has said. In that video he said 8 would be something to enter in to a competition and it might win some competitions (which I interpret as maybe winning some random local competition, not something that would win a golden demon).

The video in that link is far older than the recently deleted one.

In that video, Shawn stated a 2-7 scale, with 7 as a Golden Demon level. That was his clearly displayed and widely promoted 'guide to painting levels'.

This far older video does not marry with the scaling used in the more recent one.