Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well if the purpose of changing the levels was to fog up the issue at hand then they've done it. Well done everyone.

It doesn't matter what changes have been made after the events in question. The relevant information is that tenebre paid for the level 4 and 6 standards and the work he received was well below the examples given. The contracted service was not paid for. That's it.

RiTides wrote:Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.

Oh I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread I'm just saying lets not go overboard comparing BTP's levels to the high end commission painters on Dakka who can paint significantly better.... and charge significantly more. I'm just saying we need to keep the comparisons realistic.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.

It really seems the "7 is GD level" is something the community has made up rather than what Shawn has said. In that video he said 8 would be something to enter in to a competition and it might win some competitions (which I interpret as maybe winning some random local competition, not something that would win a golden demon).

The video in that link is far older than the recently deleted one.

In that video, Shawn stated a 2-7 scale, with 7 as a Golden Demon level. That was his clearly displayed and widely promoted 'guide to painting levels'.

This far older video does not marry with the scaling used in the more recent one.

Ok, but I don't think we can actually go too in depth with such an analysis without actually having the video you're talking about on hand. A lot can be gained and lost in how something is worded... I'd like to actually hear/see/read proof that what Shawn explicitly stated that it was a 2-7 scale and 7 being Golden Demon level.

It's not that I don't believe you think that's what he said.... it's that I always choose to give people the benefit of the doubt in absence of actual evidence. I want to know that Shawn said "7 is Golden Demon level", not "above 6 you start getting in to Golden Demon" or "you might consider entering level 7 in to a painting competition". I'm not even sure Shawn is crazy enough to make a statement like the level 6 they are offering is only 1 step shy of Golden Demon.

It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.

 Ustrello wrote:

Hexwolf wrote:
@M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such. AFAIK this most certainly is a recent change, and it follows the current pattern of behaviour from BTP that we are seeing elsewhere quite closely.

I feel pretty bad for the OP and am glad that he found someone to redo his models, I was considering having BTP do work for me, and am glad I came upon this story and the many others who have come forward since. I wouldn't want BTP to work on my army, the trust isn't there.

I think honestly he is trying to justify his trust in sending all of his models, which are nicely converted and green stuffed as I could tell from the pictures, and 500 dollars to BTP right when this was breaking.

Here is that proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gkXVuUz4E I see it has already been posted earlier, but this video is 3 years old, not what I would call a recent change...

Also I am certainly not trying to justify sending my models also I decided on BTP after what happened to Tenebre. The only reason I even posted in this thread again is because you were all starting to hate on BTP again for something you all misunderstood (that they had changed their scale to 1-10). I just wanted to set the facts straight here and enlightend you all that you were hating on something you all mistook.

 M0ff3l wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

Hexwolf wrote:
@M0ff3I I realise that you are trying to stop this from turning into a unreasoning witch hunt, but unless you have evidence that this is not a recent change then there is no point stating as such. AFAIK this most certainly is a recent change, and it follows the current pattern of behaviour from BTP that we are seeing elsewhere quite closely.

I feel pretty bad for the OP and am glad that he found someone to redo his models, I was considering having BTP do work for me, and am glad I came upon this story and the many others who have come forward since. I wouldn't want BTP to work on my army, the trust isn't there.

I think honestly he is trying to justify his trust in sending all of his models, which are nicely converted and green stuffed as I could tell from the pictures, and 500 dollars to BTP right when this was breaking.

Here is that proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gkXVuUz4E I see it has already been posted earlier, but this video is 3 years old, not what I would call a recent change...

Also I am certainly not trying to justify sending my models also I decided on BTP after what happened to Tenebre. The only reason I even posted in this thread again is because you were all starting to hate on BTP again for something you all misunderstood (that they had changed their scale to 1-10). I just wanted to set the facts straight here and enlightend you all that you were hating on something you all mistook.

That is an old video... It was not the most recent (and recently deleted) video...

Regardless of whether or not BTP changed their scale with old videos or recent videos, the telling point about the Painting Levels Explained V 1.1 is that at the 6 minute mark he says that levels 5 and 6 are for heroes, in which you can pick them up and give them a 360 degree turn. Tenebre did just that in his video and well, it was very obvious to see that after the scrutiny of a basic 360 degree turn we saw primer showing, details not being painted, terrible OSL that I could do (trust me it's not a compliment), and just all around lack of quality on the models.

Not to mention that Shaun said that they rarely do levels 7 or higher, that their portfolio was very thin at those levels and that they might have 1 level 7 or higher paintjob. Which means that 6 is still the highest that his studio can produce. It's the highest quality available and Tenebre was certainly charged for an extremely well painted army and received what can only be perceived as utter crap... but that's just me.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.

Actually, I think tenebre himself has the original video saved - which in my eyes is going to be some pretty damning evidence.

 MalusCalibur wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.

Actually, I think tenebre himself has the original video saved - which in my eyes is going to be some pretty damning evidence.

Oh well that's good if he does. I would love to see it though I doubt tenebre is going to want to share it with the legal proceedings going on.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

RiTides wrote:Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.

Oh I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread I'm just saying lets not go overboard comparing BTP's levels to the high end commission painters on Dakka who can paint significantly better.... and charge significantly more. I'm just saying we need to keep the comparisons realistic.
.

So level 5-6 shouldn't have at the very least all the primer covered?

Noir wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

RiTides wrote:Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.

Oh I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread I'm just saying lets not go overboard comparing BTP's levels to the high end commission painters on Dakka who can paint significantly better.... and charge significantly more. I'm just saying we need to keep the comparisons realistic.
.

So level 5-6 shouldn't have at the very least all the primer covered?

Let me just restate this....

I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread

As for whether primer should be covered, that depends on the specific context and whether or not they advertised as such. In Tenebre's case, the exposed primer is showing a lack of attention to detail more than anything. But primer after it's been washed and varnished can potentially be fine depending on the circumstances.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Noir wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

RiTides wrote:Skink - Again, it doesn't really matter how many levels beyond their best they list. He paid for their best work on that bull. For $250 you'd think they might be able to paint over the primer lol.

Oh I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread I'm just saying lets not go overboard comparing BTP's levels to the high end commission painters on Dakka who can paint significantly better.... and charge significantly more. I'm just saying we need to keep the comparisons realistic.
.

So level 5-6 shouldn't have at the very least all the primer covered?

Let me just restate this....

I don't disagree that Tenebre was short changed, that's the point of this thread

As for whether primer should be covered, that depends on the specific context and whether or not they advertised as such. In Tenebre's case, the exposed primer is showing a lack of attention to detail more than anything. But primer after it's been washed and varnished can potentially be fine depending on the circumstances.

Let me rephrase... Do you think the L6 Bull was painted to L6 even by BTP new level guide. As we know it wasn't painted to L6 by the video taking down.

Noir wrote:
Let me rephrase... Do you think the L6 Bull was painted to L6 even by BTP new level guide. As we know it wasn't painted to L6 by the video taking down.

No, I don't... I never said I did... I've stated several times in this thread that I thought Tenebre got short changed on the level he paid for... that's not remotely what I was talking about though. I was just pointing out that a comparison saying they do worse than most commission painters and charge a premium for it is not a realistic comparison.

Is there a level in their current stated system that would leave primer with no basecoat on a model?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
They could rank scales 1 to 1000, but if they only offer 1 thru 6 (with 7 being golden daemon level, so we're taking supernatural beyond that, right?) it really doesn't matter.

It really seems the "7 is GD level" is something the community has made up rather than what Shawn has said. In that video he said 8 would be something to enter in to a competition and it might win some competitions (which I interpret as maybe winning some random local competition, not something that would win a golden demon).

The video in that link is far older than the recently deleted one.

In that video, Shawn stated a 2-7 scale, with 7 as a Golden Demon level. That was his clearly displayed and widely promoted 'guide to painting levels'.

This far older video does not marry with the scaling used in the more recent one.

Exactly. I think we all actually agree on the main point, so no need to continue discussing this tangent this when both are true really. Some of us are referring to this recent video, some the older, but the underlying obvious truth is they did not paint it to the standard they said they would, or really anything close to how they describe that standard (and were contracted to complete the army to it).

 plastictrees wrote:
Is there a level in their current stated system that would leave primer with no basecoat on a model?

Lol . Yeah, like I said I think we're all agreed there!!

 plastictrees wrote:
Is there a level in their current stated system that would leave primer with no basecoat on a model?

In their video Shawn actually said level 0 would just be primer, lol.

I really do feel for you Tenebre, I am astounded that they are not pulling out all the stops to sort you out and make sure that you are a happy customer.

It really does not cut it, that bs about them having so may thousands of happy customers, any business worth its salt goes out of its way to make sure that every single one is happy with his experience, that is if they want to continue going forward.

Its obvious from the embarrassing videos that they really think they are in the right, and that's not even the point, makes me sad, I hope you get it sorted out, that redone bull centaur looks bang on, hope someone can rescue the rest for you man.

In the video I saw, Shawn said a level six would pass scrutiny at 9" away (and somehow, humans can't focus closer then that, so better paint jobs wouldn't matter, his explanation, not mine). Also, every detail would be picked out.

Level 7: A model that wouldn't win, but would be in the finalist selection at Golden Daemon.

Level 8: A model you would find in a gaming companies published material (so Angel Giraldez or the equiv).

Level 9: No idea, I guess painted by an AI that was designed to recursively improve its skill at painting until it transcended humanities understanding.

Level 10: Painted by aforementioned AI, but all the paints are blended in with the divine ichor of mighty Zeus.

I think the details of the levels are confusing the fact that most of us agree that BTP did not meet their stated standards.
The second point that I think most of us can agree on is that Shawn is trying to obfuscate the details of that failure by fiddling around with BTPs levels.

Keep in mind they removed the most recent painting level video for a reason. Whatever, you guys get the point, I'm sick of talking about it

Guys, before we retire that topic I just need to say this:

BTP's painting sucks on so many levels. Specifically level 2-6.

There. I said it. My life is now complete.

if BTP would have said something like, "We do basic tabletop work, and here is the price per mini by size.", there would be a lot less confusion, and Tenebre would have known what to expect for his money...
instead they over-complicate matters, and even worse, seem to say you get what you get regardless of level, and then they are on to the next thing they can churn out...
so in the end, there is no point in defining levels anyway!!!

the worst part is, he turned over a huge amount of money, and was not even giving the chance to work with his painter to bring the vision of the army to fruition...
that, to me, is the big issue here...
you pay for a huge army, with a distinct vision laid out in reference material, and then this painting SERVICE (the key word here) just says,"Meh, you get what you get, regardless of what you want, and you will pay us for the pleasure."
that is the crime, and sure isn't proper service...

i hope this case is clear cut enough for a judge, so Tenebre can get some kind of settlement, and that BTP will possibly get it's act together, do there basic style of work, and not try to be more than they are as a service...

cheers
jah

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 MalusCalibur wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.

Actually, I think tenebre himself has the original video saved - which in my eyes is going to be some pretty damning evidence.

Oh well that's good if he does. I would love to see it though I doubt tenebre is going to want to share it with the legal proceedings going on.

It was ripped from youtube prior to being removed. its not my IP therefore i can not share it legally with anyone outside a court. So I hope you understand.

 tenebre wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 MalusCalibur wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

It's a shame no one seems to have saved that video before it went private. If I were Tenebre I'd be getting a screen shot of the "this video has been made private" page along with the link so if necessary he can show that BTP have pulled the advertising that was relevant at the time and leave it up to BTP to defend their actions.

Actually, I think tenebre himself has the original video saved - which in my eyes is going to be some pretty damning evidence.

Oh well that's good if he does. I would love to see it though I doubt tenebre is going to want to share it with the legal proceedings going on.

It was ripped from youtube prior to being removed. its not my IP therefore i can not share it legally with anyone outside a court. So I hope you understand.

As long as you have it. That's all that matters at this point.

i would just like too say that this community rocks rallying behind tenebre and tenebre thank you for bringing this too light and saving folks from possibly having too have the same problem hope it all works out for you in the end because i want too see a banging chaos dwarf army look the way it should (and from the side by side looks like its well underway of just that ) \m/ \m/ i give the touch ups a 4 horns up and looking forward too seeing it all done and proper !

Gotta say a few things here:


1) I applaud the dakka community for keeping this thread fresh, and running up at the top of the page list. If you are wondering what you can do to help bring attention to this issue, its talk about it, share the thread, and keep it updated and current and easily found. Keep posting on it! I applaud the Dakka MODS for allowing this thread, and keeping it civil, and allowing it to remain open and running for the world to see. That is one way that we can help tenebre - is by not letting this issue die away and get lost in the thread archives where no one will see it. This is EXACTLY what BTP wants. THey want this issue to just quietly go away, and the thread to go away so they can get back to ripping people off with their shoddy business practices. We can help to prevent that by sharing this thread, and keeping this thread up at the forefront of discussion

2) I have read almost every single thing i can find about this issue on the various forums, heres what i have learned about BTP and the individual who runs it:

- I am absolutely awestruck and amazed at how devoid of any sense of ethics or personal responsibility Shawn Gately is. He is a very good example of how NOT to run a small business.
- Even after the absolute pounding his companys reputation has taken, he just continues right on his merry way like a true snake oil salesman - its almost like he didnt even miss a beat. He arrogantly defied any appearance of remorse or responsibility - in fact, id say he is probably laughing at all of you. He laughed all the way to the bank with Tenebres 8,000 dollars while delivering a product that even a rank amateur would be ashamed of. Its more of the ole bait and switch shenanegins lately too with him taking down the levels video - if you cant see that this is related to the chaos dwarves debacle then you are just fooling yourself. Remember, this is a man who contacted a government official to lower the minimum work age so he could have his OWN CHILDREN to come work in his sweat shop painting studio. The more you read about him, the more disgusting and unethical it gets. This person suffers from delusions of grandeur and you can see it in his crazy cult-leader eyes as he randomly drifts through his many daily videos of pipe dreams and day dreams about "valhalla" and "shawn land" and a gaming paradise that would rival the land of "rivendale". WTF

3) MWG - You disgust me. You cant even possibly defend your actions - how dare you shill this snake oil con-man to innocent victims on youtube. Are you hoping there will be more victims like Tenebre? Are you an accomplice to this scheme? Sure seem likes it. Were you just completely unaware that the gaming community thinks BTP are about as trust worthy as jack the ripper? I Hope whatever freebie or painted miniature, or valhalla ticket you got out of it was worth throwing your sites reputation into the garbage dumpster. ANother really textbook example of exactly how not to run a small business.


4) Apparently, both of these sites BTP and MWG have a penchant for deleting youtube videos when it does not favor their business. There is a way to save youtube videos as evidence, if you just go to the web address and type "ss" right in front of youtube (so it would read http://www.ssyoutube.com/abcsbcetc....) it takes you to a download page where you can save the video to your hard drive. Believe me if BTP could find a way to hack into your computer to delete the evidence, im sure they would.

 jah-joshua wrote:
if BTP would have said something like, "We do basic tabletop work, and here is the price per mini by size.", there would be a lot less confusion, and Tenebre would have known what to expect for his money...

Honestly what he got wasn't even basic table top quality. It was completely devoid of even basic detailing. Shoddy OSL doesn't make it even passingly acceptable as TT standard.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
if BTP would have said something like, "We do basic tabletop work, and here is the price per mini by size.", there would be a lot less confusion, and Tenebre would have known what to expect for his money...

Honestly what he got wasn't even basic table top quality. It was completely devoid of even basic detailing. Shoddy OSL doesn't make it even passingly acceptable as TT standard.

This.

I can paint tabletop, and tabletop starts with a full basecoat (covering all primer), all details painted in contrasting colors, with highlight and shade for all surfaces.

Showing primer and failing to pick out obvious details means the model does not meet basic tabletop standards.

Holy balls, someone reactivated JohnHwangDD! Wake up HBMC and fire up the thunderdome!

*bursts through the door*

What the hell???

Maybe not highlights. But at the very least a basecoat followed by a neat coat of the various colors, and then a simple wash to give some basic shading. That would be table top quality for me.

If I were to have a painting service of my own, I'd have 3 levels.

Basic Table Top: Basecoat, colors painted neatly(all details picked out), and a single wash.

Average quality: Simple freehand work, basic highlights and washes. Decals if provided. Models would be sealed with a clear coat.

High Quality: custom paint mixing, freehand work, decals if provided, multiple levels of highlights and shading as well as washes. Sealed with clear coat.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*bursts through the door*

What the hell???

Yep, all we need now is Stelek, Green Blow Fly, Deadshane, Nurglitch, Gwar and Muleed and this thread is officially Dakka's hot tub time machine...