3352
Post by: Jaric
So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or Hellhounds fueled by Jews etc. I was then told that this could offend people which I think is slowed considering:
1. The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did
2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.
What do you think? Am I wrong? I could go to any minitaure store and buy every veh and model Germany had in the war, so is this any different?
11295
Post by: Fattimus_maximus
Just do it
7013
Post by: Ifurita
I would just do it. Without the nazi symbology, it's hardly a super unique set of colors
7653
Post by: Corpsesarefun
do it, without the swastika's its pretty hard to identify the scheme as nazi
5268
Post by: NO_SUCH_LUCK
I'm surprised no one has laid a mushroom cloud on your head for saying the N word and guard in the same poast!
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
Well, GMM Studios painted up a beautiful army in roughly Third Reich colors and even without the swastikas, he got crucified in the forums for doing it.
3352
Post by: Jaric
How far down the rabbit hole of ignorance can I go do you think? If I put red arm bands on my troops, but with the Aquila instead of the Other symbol, is that kosher too?
Yes that word play was awesome and you know it.
What about black uniformed storm troopers? Would a little SS on the uniform be too much?
I think you could just paint Commissars to look like Gestapo without any real effort.
Do you think I would be allowed to play this army at a tournie? Could I be disqualified for a paint scheme?
On a side note, this leads me to a more general discussion. Obviously all the guard models are err modelled on armies from different eras. The Valhallans for instance look a lot like ww2 winter German soldiers to me.
3352
Post by: Jaric
Plus the most obvious German army out there: Death Korps (ww1 era).
If even GW is creating German army style models, should this even be an issue? Or is it because its pre-nazis German that its okay?
Ohhhhh Nazis are bad, but Mustard-Gas using Germans are okay?
4058
Post by: StarGate
I say go for it but make sure you do your uniform rights Field Grey/ German grey for early war and then later on in the war the uniforms changes Still field grey but they have the Pea soup and oak camo of late war.
Then on the Vehicles early war there panzer grey( german grey) and mid war there when you get all the differnet camo patterns, Late war you get the standard three color theme of Dark yellow, Dark green and red brown.
So you get some options Vs just plain grey vs three color camo depending on era of paint scheme.
4179
Post by: bubber
i'll be using german ww2 vehicles for my renegade guard. I don't see a problem with it personally
1544
Post by: brassangel
If you left off the swastika, it's fine. It's just a color scheme after that.
The symbol that represented the Nazi party is what would offend.
No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.
Completely different.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Jaric wrote:Plus the most obvious German army out there: Death Korps (ww1 era).
To get technical on you(as an owner of DKoK models), they are actually a combination of WW1 Germans and French(much more apparent in the Officers than the basic trooper).
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
GMM did red stripes and red flags on his stuff and got lynched for it. I think that tells you the line that you can cross without getting in trouble. SS on the uniforms, definitely bad form. Black uniformed storm troopers - hell, there are folks with black uniformed troops all over, so that's not a big deal.
<sigh> I don't want to get into a discussion about the morality of painting and playing questionable armies again and again. Do a search in the Modeling and Painting forum for "Nazi" and I'm sure you'll find all the previous discussions.
6084
Post by: theHandofGork
Jaric wrote:So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or Hellhounds fueled by Jews etc. I was then told that this could offend people which I think is slowed considering:
1. The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did
2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.
What do you think? Am I wrong? I could go to any minitaure store and buy every veh and model Germany had in the war, so is this any different?
1. Imperium= fiction.
2. Is there some kind of "evil" scale out there? I'd avoid trying to compare how awful one horrific regime is to another.
I would call this questionable, it really depends on what you'r intentions are. If it's just for looks than it seems fine to me.
161
Post by: syr8766
EDIT (removed all the hemming and hawing)
Please don't do this. You will get called on it. You will offend someone. If you want to paint Nazis, do a historical army (or at least Weird War II), or even better, get yourself a Tamiya or Academy kit and knock yourself out.
Basically, try to follow this rule: if you have to ask yourself whether it's in good or bad taste, it's probably in bad taste.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
It seems to boil down to: Using the scheme of the German army circa WW2 is passable, it's once you start adding ANY historical iconography(the twin lightning SS, red flag/armbands, crosses, etc.) that a line seems to get crossed. Also, don't expect to use it in GW stores, as they frown upon Historically accurate schemes.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
brassangel wrote:No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.
Completely different.
Dude, you don't want to start this...the Japanese did horrific things to soldiers and civilians alike. It's not that different. But then, you can make similar arguments about the Soviet gulags and the millions that died there and Valhallan miniatures. This discussion has been had again and again and again. And what it always comes down to is "How much flak are you willing to take for your army?"
2548
Post by: jmurph
Dead horse time!
Why do you so badly want to emulate one of the most horrific totalitarian regimes in western history? Just think about that a second. Okay, fine historical blah blah, then why not try a WW2 game? Is it the fascinating early grey uniforms? The amazing later green grey uniforms? Black helmets? Now the SS did have some interesting patterns, but they are also considerably more complex to paint. And none of these will probably do more than raise an eyebrow if you don't add Nazi iconography. So why do you need to? And then why bother asking if people will be offended when you know they will?
5268
Post by: NO_SUCH_LUCK
jmurph wrote:Dead horse time!
Why do you so badly want to emulate one of the most horrific totalitarian regimes in western history? Just think about that a second. Okay, fine historical blah blah, then why not try a WW2 game? Is it the fascinating early grey uniforms? The amazing later green grey uniforms? Black helmets? Now the SS did have some interesting patterns, but they are also considerably more complex to paint. And none of these will probably do more than raise an eyebrow if you don't add Nazi iconography. So why do you need to? And then why bother asking if people will be offended when you know they will?
AHA! There it is!
SAY NAZI AGAIN MOTHERF%$#R!!!
9708
Post by: Orkeosaurus
Stalin killed more people than Hitler. Nobody cares if you put his political officers in your army. Or make a Valhallan army. I agree on not using swastikas or Jew hellhounds though. That would probably be in poor taste. brassangel wrote:If you left off the swastika, it's fine. It's just a color scheme after that.
The symbol that represented the Nazi party is what would offend.
No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.
Completely different.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
1457
Post by: M_Stress
"Would a little SS on the uniform be too much? "
Yep
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
Okay - I reference the following threads for previous discussions about using Nazi models and iconography.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/217610.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227515.page
If these threads don't tell you how folks feel about ideas like this, I don't think there's a whole lot else that can be added. You'll note that only one of the three threads was ultimately locked due to the heated discussion.
10667
Post by: Fifty
Jaric wrote:2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.
Want to bet no-one would have a problem?
brassangel wrote:If you left off the swastika, it's fine. It's just a color scheme after that.
The symbol that represented the Nazi party is what would offend.
No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.
Completely different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
The Japanese did nasty things in WW2. And I am not a Japan Basher. I lived there once, love the country and the people and the country, and want to live there again one day. But lets not forget what can happen when extremism takes hold, in Europe or Asia.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Not condoning it, but its kind of ironic that if it were "I wanna do my Guard Like WW2 American Troops" no one would care.
The allies didn't exactly gak roses the whole war you know:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II
I am Jewish, and I honestly would not care. I do not find the Swastika offensive, for to do so would find much of Hindu and oriental Culture offensive. etc etc etc ad infinitum
Oh and just to as some srs to the thread:
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..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}
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.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__
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8021
Post by: JD21290
for anyone to see: just go with plain german style uniform, nothing wrong with it atall, its a bit of paint on a model 
with the swas its very edgy, alot of people take offence to it (i dont see how its bad on a small model, its simply historical) but yea, alot of people may be up in arms about it, so not the best idea 
allthough people who do all the historical re-enactments dont get shot for wearing the full uniform.
Edit:
not to hijack this thread, but i had an idea ages ago, but now thinking it may not be the best idea.
the 1/4 sun symbol (unsure of its name)
i was going to use a full sun symbol on tau, simply because black clothing, white armour and a red design like that would stand out, any way i can alter that to avoid causing offence?
or, any similar patterns? (pm me if so please)
3352
Post by: Jaric
Sorry bout kicking a dead horse. I assumed I wasnt the first person to think about gazis (guard+Nazis...or maybe Nuard...) but I have never seen it brought up here.
And I didnt mean to derail it with the Nazis v Japanese...its just weird how Nazis are just inhuman monsters to some people, and portraying ww2 Japanese in a poor light is offensive because some countries locked up their citizens in wartime.
Anywhooo so im getting colour scheme is okay, but Iconography is bad. But the colour red is conjunction is right out? I think red is a striking colour contrast and will look good sans Swastika. Maybe ill put the sickle and hammer on it and make them Comminazis...the ultimate insult to humanity!
8021
Post by: JD21290
red detail on them should be fine
just dont do a "+"
seems a tad too close for some people.
i myself am not really offended by anything, to me life is life, things have been said and done in the past which i do not agree with, but crying about them now will not change history.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Why not parody them and make them love nazis, with heartstikas?
or Hello Kitty Nazis.... ow my brain just exploded.
131
Post by: malfred
NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:I'm surprised no one has laid a mushroom cloud on your head for saying the N word
You mean this word:
"NO_SUCH_LUCK"
?
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Jaric wrote:And I didnt mean to derail it with the Nazis v Japanese...its just weird how Nazis are just inhuman monsters to some people, and portraying ww2 Japanese in a poor light is offensive because some countries locked up their citizens in wartime.
It's all about public perception. We still hear about the Nazis and have it held up as the ultimate evil today, but other than Pearl Harbor and the dropping of the bombs, the average person doesn't hear/talk about or perhaps know much about the Pacific Theater. Even looking at history shows/channels on TV, it's almost a 4:1 ratio(or more) of shows about Nazi German in relation to anything else WW2 related.
Hell, I know people who don't believe me when I tell them about how xenophobic/racist Japanese can be at times because their idea of Japan and Japanese society is Anime/Vidja games/Otaku.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
NO_SUCH_LUCK wrote:I'm surprised no one has laid a mushroom cloud on your head for saying the N word
Naggers? Like, people who Nag at you? Annoying people? 
8021
Post by: JD21290
hope you didnt slip when typing that one Gwar
that could land you in the gak pretty quickly.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
No, I didnt. It was a Subtle South park Joke. and slip? The fething letter is on the other side of the keyboard!
Oh to go back on topic:
I wouldn't care.
Many people (especially people who had no connection to the events of WW2) would
8021
Post by: JD21290
funny isnt it?
its allways people without connections to events that seem to shout about things, people who are connected tend to just get on with things and make no deal of it.
12046
Post by: Psylon
I think my take on it is that the Nazi era troops used Black and red....so if that were wrong, what would the Blood angel Death company be? There are Scads of armies that have used that color scheme before. I seem to recall that there were some early (2nd ed or so) GW Guard minis that had gas masks with lightning bolts on their helmets. GW tends to "borrow" heavily from history, so I don't see too much of a problem with you going with that. Just so I can /agree with everyone else though definitely leave off the SS/swastikas. Otherwise, yeah you could be calling down the thunder. Yadda yadda yadda public perception*, etc et al.
*I know that the swastika was a hindu symbol, and SS could just stand for "Salami sandwiches" for all I know, but that's not what people are gonna think. Toeing the line is fine. It's when you step over it that people start to get all angry.
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Post by: namegoeshere
If anyone asks say they are chaos/ evil.
There are two things to consider;
1. It might offend someone and you might feel bad
2. It might offend someone and they might annoy you yapping
9708
Post by: Orkeosaurus
namegoeshere wrote:If anyone asks say they are chaos/ evil.
They're part of the Imperium. Of course they're evil.
3844
Post by: Dave47
So, let's go through this post-by-post:
Jaric wrote:So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or Hellhounds fueled by Jews etc. I was then told that this could offend people which I think is slowed considering:
1. The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did
2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.
What do you think? Am I wrong? I could go to any minitaure store and buy every veh and model Germany had in the war, so is this any different?
Ok, here's my take: If you like the color scheme, and think it would look good on your IG army, I would feel kind of silly getting annoyed at you. But if you chose the color scheme because it was really important to you to create an army of Space Nazis, I would think less of you, and would be somewhat offended. I have nothing against WW2 miniature games, but I think there's something questionable about intentionally dragging all of that specific baggage into my Sci-Fi Fantasy game.
Your focus on comparing Germany to Japan and trying to show that "the Nazis kind of got an unfair rap, historically speaking" isn't doing you any favors.
Jaric wrote:How far down the rabbit hole of ignorance can I go do you think? If I put red arm bands on my troops, but with the Aquila instead of the Other symbol, is that kosher too?
Yes that word play was awesome and you know it.
What about black uniformed storm troopers? Would a little SS on the uniform be too much?
I think you could just paint Commissars to look like Gestapo without any real effort.
Do you think I would be allowed to play this army at a tournie? Could I be disqualified for a paint scheme?
On a side note, this leads me to a more general discussion. Obviously all the guard models are err modelled on armies from different eras. The Valhallans for instance look a lot like ww2 winter German soldiers to me.
Once again, the point shouldn't be to try and cram as much Nazi iconography as possible into your army without being yelled at. No one hands out bonus points for faithfully recreating every detail of the Gestapo's uniform.
Jaric wrote:Plus the most obvious German army out there: Death Korps (ww1 era).
If even GW is creating German army style models, should this even be an issue? Or is it because its pre-nazis German that its okay?
Ohhhhh Nazis are bad, but Mustard-Gas using Germans are okay?
Do you really not get the distinction between WW1 Germans and WW2 Germans? There's a big difference between "Germans" and "Nazis."
Jaric wrote:]Sorry bout kicking a dead horse. I assumed I wasnt the first person to think about gazis (guard+Nazis...or maybe Nuard...) but I have never seen it brought up here.
And I didnt mean to derail it with the Nazis v Japanese...its just weird how Nazis are just inhuman monsters to some people, and portraying ww2 Japanese in a poor light is offensive because some countries locked up their citizens in wartime.
Anywhooo so im getting colour scheme is okay, but Iconography is bad. But the colour red is conjunction is right out? I think red is a striking colour contrast and will look good sans Swastika. Maybe ill put the sickle and hammer on it and make them Comminazis...the ultimate insult to humanity!
Honestly, I'd come up with a different scheme. The scheme is not bad in and of itself, but you seem to be drawn to the scheme for the wrong reason. This is, of course, a personal thing, but someday someone is going to give you some mild crap about it, and if you react the "wrong way" (as you did in this thread) you may suddenly find that no one wants to play with you.
11310
Post by: Shortbus
The wrong part is that there are no photos of painted minis in this whole thread.
Dammit.
7766
Post by: Anti-Mag
What a total waste of thread space. I've never heard such absolute bollocks in my life. If you're planning to recreate a Wermacht colour scheme, go ahead. They used camo colour schemes like every other force in WW2. You don't see people getting crucified for painting up Luftwaffe models with painstaking accuracy, swastikas and all.
I can see why people would have beef with SS, swastika or Rising Sun heraldry. If these are removed, it's just another uniform, minus political inclination. If people still get pissed, refuse to play them.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
brassangel wrote:No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.
(emphasis mine)
What? What?! WHAT?!?!?
That's not right. That's not even wrong. Jesus H. Buddhallah Vishnu Christ, that's the most uninformed and ludicrous take on Nazi belief systems I've ever heard uttered by someone who's not a holocaust denier.
7116
Post by: Belphegor
I'd say go for it (tastefully).
And by tastefully I don't mean skirt around the theme.
You don't need the symbols of the Reich, the guard have enough of their own
the 2 headed eagle, the skull and the wing
Use the grey-green, the lime-wash and the pea soup for the elites.
Black uniforms for the officers.
Make them fascists.
Right up parallel back story.
Make your opponent HATE them.
seriously
Use them to as the face of what's wrong with the Imperium:
during the good times they'll send in well trained soldiers
during the worst time they'll send in brainwashed and desperate children
all the while convinced that they where right.
It's creepy and nasty but the imagery works very well for the darker side of the Guard.
12133
Post by: Guitar Ninja
You know, this has probably been mentioned, but it's irritating because so many people now-a-days assume that all German soldiers were part of the Waffen SS and the Gestapo and other insidious organizations within their military. There were plenty of guys drafted into the regular army, or Heer, just like one our side (with the exception of the Einsatzgruppen, which were created and run by Himmler). And those regular soldiers didn't go around sporting red armbands and the double S insignias and massacring Jews. The only swastika they wore (from what I can tell) was on a badge, an eagle holding a very small swastika.
reference: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-uniforms/germany.htm#1940
http://www.ww2archive.net/cat9.htm
Not the best references but still, it's something to go on.
Anyway now that I'm off of my soapbox, just do a regular Heer styled army and call it good.
12568
Post by: floppy
Just do it, and as long as you don't add any Nazi iconography, nobody really cares.
5574
Post by: Mecharius
I say go for it. And for those naysayers all I have to say is; if everything reminds you of WW2 someone is nursing alot more then a grudge; what the nazis did was horrible no doubt but don't let that influence the hobby. And for the record hitler stole the sieg-lightning bolts from old norse religion so do we suddenly hate them too??? Hitler stole the swastika from the romans, the same witht he "nazi" salute so do we hate the romans now too????? 
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Mecharius wrote:Hitler stole the swastika from the romans, the same witht he "nazi" salute so do we hate the romans now too?????
Wow, are you ever misinformed. The Nazis took the Swastika from the Hindu and Buddhists. It's an Asiatic symbol dating back to the Neolithic period and had NOTHING to do with Rome.  As well, the actual Roman military salute was a single right handed fist clenched over the left breast. It's actually unknown(and highly unlikely) whether the "Roman Salute" was actually used by the Romans at all(there is no evidence to support the claim that they used it) and may just be an artistic license taken by French artists in the 18th Century, as this is the first time in history there is any record of this gesture existing at all. Next time, know a little history before stating these things.
12620
Post by: Che-Vito
Jaric wrote:How far down the rabbit hole of ignorance can I go do you think?
Read below, as you have already gone far enough in my mind.
Jaric wrote:Would a little SS on the uniform be too much?
Yes, as in the original premise, you stated that it would be modeled after the generic German Army, not the SS.
Jaric wrote:I think you could just paint Commissars to look like Gestapo without any real effort.
Good for you, again, not part of the generic German Army.
Jaric wrote:Do you think I would be allowed to play this army at a tournie? Could I be disqualified for a paint scheme?
You could play a generic looking German army at a tournament, probably wouldn't be disqualified for the scheme.
You could throw in that other crap you have listed, maybe be disqualified, and have next to nobody want anything to do with you.
Jaric wrote:On a side note, this leads me to a more general discussion. Obviously all the guard models are err modelled on armies from different eras. The Valhallans for instance look a lot like ww2 winter German soldiers to me.
Yes, as has been established more than likely thousands of times by GW workers, artists, and managers, the armies that exist for IG are all based strongly off of some historical force, at least in an asthetic way.
Granted, I am not Jewish, Black, Slavic, and am not a gypsy by ethnic heritage (granted, living out of a van, selling art, and traveling makes me one by the sense of the word, but that is beside the point). When you talk about painting a ww2 era German army, and then begin throwing out different Nazi influences you would LIKE to incorporate, you are opening a can of worms.
Example: The SS and Gestapo were involved in the deaths of thousands of innocents, based on race, political motivation, or religious backround.
9/11 attackers: Involved in the deaths of thousands of innocents based on religious backround, political motivation (part of the U.S.), and race (American?)
Now, if I suggested on these forums that I paint an army modeled to look like Arabic guerrillas, and call my force the Taliban Regiment, do you think some people might be rightfully pissed off? The German army of ww2, especially in the beginning years, is something to admire, but if that is your motivation, then keep it to those worth admiration.
6210
Post by: Le Grognard
Oh for craps sake, how many other countries, have or have had Feldgrau uniforms? We're talking Sci Fi toy soldiers. So I guess if I paint my Guard in Olive Drab some persons over in Viet Nam are going to get all bent out of shape?
46
Post by: alarmingrick
my opinion:
bad taste. bad Idea. don't do it.
there is entirely too many other choices out there.
6927
Post by: Lagduf
brassangel wrote:If you left off the swastika, it's fine. It's just a color scheme after that.
The symbol that represented the Nazi party is what would offend.
No, what the Japs did to their Chinese POW's was not worse than what Germany did. Germany took people who weren't soldiers at all (and certainly not at war), and eliminated them because Darwins "Origin of Species" justified the downgrading of a nationality.
Completely different.
FYI: Jap is widely recognized as a racial slur.
I found your reply humorous when you state he shouldn't use the Swastika but then drop "Jap" in casually.
I don't find Jap terribly offensive, but it's certainly a slur, but more so it's just an out-dated term that will fade away in time like the word "colored" when meaning non-whites.
I say the OP should do whatever he wants. If he wants to model every guardsmen after Adolf Hitler even, then he should go for it. He'll be the one reaping any possibly repercussions, not anyone else in this thread.
9982
Post by: dementedwombat
Go for it. The Nazi's had a good uniform, regardless of what  they were. The Swastika isn't even that offensive to me. It was actually a Hindu good luck charm before Hitler grabbed it (I swear, that man never had an original idea in his life). When viewed in its original context it's not insulting at all.
If you're really worried about people getting offended just replace all the Swastikas with an Iron Cross. It's still unmistakably Nazi, but for some reason it doesn't offend people.
On the whole Nazi issue; I had a friend who converted a WHFB skeleton unit to all be dressed in rotting Nazi uniforms (right down to the armbands). He got a few laughs, but then again we never played that unit outside our group of friends. I'm not sure I'd want to.
EDIT: as much as it may seem from my post, I am NOT a white supremest. Nazis were unmistakably evil.
8773
Post by: Darksword
Paint them grey, allow yourself a few armbands, but go with Demetedwombat's suggestion and add the Iron Cross if you feel like you need to add some iconography.
Personaly, I wouln't mind if you added swastikas, but a lot of people are sensitive to that kind of thing.
12810
Post by: Greenlight1107
Hey man Just do it, but when you do it make it look good. It's your army you paid for it do what you want. I seen a Sisters of Battle army that belonged to some gamers wife with a Hello Kitty theme, the colors were soft pink, hot pink and red. This game is all about fun and thats what really matters.
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Post by: Che-Vito
Greenlight1107 wrote:a Hello Kitty theme, the colors were soft pink, hot pink and red.
Not only is this intimidating, but fun to imagine a unit retreating from said "Hello Kitty" Regiment.
"Watch the hot pink squad on your flank! We're being OVERRUN!"
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Post by: Mattlov
Do it. Use all the symbols, and then go a step further.
Organize your forces to a very precise level like a German unit, with the exact number of troops per unit and tank support of the real unit. Execute blitzkrieg style warfare on opponents.
Go all the way. Don't worry about offending people. Educate them. On the realities of the Reich Army, and don't focus on the leadership and extraneous stuff. Just focus on a single combat unit.
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Post by: dementedwombat
Mattlov wrote:Do it. Use all the symbols, and then go a step further.
Organize your forces to a very precise level like a German unit, with the exact number of troops per unit and tank support of the real unit. Execute blitzkrieg style warfare on opponents.
Go all the way. Don't worry about offending people. Educate them. On the realities of the Reich Army, and don't focus on the leadership and extraneous stuff. Just focus on a single combat unit.
The sad part, I'm not sure if you're kidding.
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Post by: WaaaaghLord
dementedwombat wrote:Mattlov wrote:Do it. Use all the symbols, and then go a step further.
Organize your forces to a very precise level like a German unit, with the exact number of troops per unit and tank support of the real unit. Execute blitzkrieg style warfare on opponents.
Go all the way. Don't worry about offending people. Educate them. On the realities of the Reich Army, and don't focus on the leadership and extraneous stuff. Just focus on a single combat unit.
The sad part, I'm not sure if you're kidding.
The sad part, I'm not sure why i agree with this. Tipppy-toeing round a piece of world history is one step from saying it didn't happen
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Post by: Greenlight1107
Che-Vito: That's funny stuff man!!!
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Post by: KingCracker
WOW this thread went WAY more smoothly then the last one I read about this same topic. Shoot man even I got into the argument. And personally I wouldnt care if you made them look similar. As long as the swastika was left off and SS icons off youd be totally fine. Adding any of those Im sure will make some people get pissed off.
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Post by: Mecharius
KingCracker wrote:WOW this thread went WAY more smoothly then the last one I read about this same topic. Shoot man even I got into the argument. And personally I wouldnt care if you made them look similar. As long as the swastika was left off and SS icons off youd be totally fine. Adding any of those Im sure will make some people get pissed off.
The Sieg is perfectly good; it means quick. people educate yourself, just because it was used once in a bad way doesn't mean the symbol itself is bad.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227515.page
The answer to your question lies here.
My only question is why people aren't badgering for picks. Also link is slightly different, I questioned about Witch Hunter Nazis.
If you want emblems similar to the Nazi Icons, look at the Helgasht from Killzone.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Jaric wrote:So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or Hellhounds fueled by Jews etc. I was then told that this could offend people which I think is slowed considering:
1. The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did
2. I could paint an army with the Imperial Japanese colours and people wouldnt have a problem even though Japan was as bad or worse on the Chinese in ww2 and their POW's etc.
What do you think? Am I wrong? I could go to any minitaure store and buy every veh and model Germany had in the war, so is this any different?
Yes it's wrong because admiring and seeking to emulate the Nazis is wrong on many, many levels. Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it. And... THE IMPERIUM IS NOT WORSE THAN NAZI GERMANY BECAUSE THE IMPERIUM IS FICTIONAL!
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Post by: Mattlov
dementedwombat wrote:Mattlov wrote:Do it. Use all the symbols, and then go a step further.
Organize your forces to a very precise level like a German unit, with the exact number of troops per unit and tank support of the real unit. Execute blitzkrieg style warfare on opponents.
Go all the way. Don't worry about offending people. Educate them. On the realities of the Reich Army, and don't focus on the leadership and extraneous stuff. Just focus on a single combat unit.
The sad part, I'm not sure if you're kidding.
I'm not kidding. I'm saying don't focus on the "Evil Nazi" aspect and focus on the highly trained military force aspect.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes it's wrong because admiring and seeking to emulate the Nazis is wrong on many, many levels.
Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.
And...
THE IMPERIUM IS NOT WORSE THAN NAZI GERMANY BECAUSE THE IMPERIUM IS FICTIONAL!
This coming from a man with Inquisitor Hussein and his "Jihad".
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/7714-Inquisitor%20Hussein%20and%20his%20Jihad.html?m=2
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Yep. Why? Hussein is one of the most common names on Earth, up there with Mohammed and 李 I forget who but remember hearing there's a prominent American with the middle name Hussein I figured it's time it was reclaimed and people stopped thinking of Moslem=Terrorist=Evil. Now if someone starts researching Talliban uniforms and making up rules for crashing Thunderhawks into buildings... Well that's something different.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yep.
Why?
Hussein is one of the most common names on Earth, up there with Mohammed and 李
I forget who but remember hearing there's a prominent American with the middle name Hussein
I figured it's time it was reclaimed and people stopped thinking of Moslem=Terrorist=Evil.
Now if someone starts researching Talliban uniforms and making up rules for crashing Thunderhawks into buildings...
Well that's something different.
I fail to see how reclaiming Jihad, and Hussein is any different from reclaiming the Wehrmacht as a bad thing, he's not saying he's gonna make rules for hunting Jews, Gays, Gypsies and Slavs. He's using the uniforms and some of the icons which the German Army itself still uses.
Now if you'll allow me I have to point out a flaw in you logic, Taliban have no specific uniform so researching it would be pointless, they are a guerrilla force and wear what ever.
Edit: [removed highly politicized trolling] Please stop helping to drive this thread off-topic. -- yakface
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Post by: ph34r
Color scheme? Go for it. There is no reason not to use a color scheme, it's not particularly unique.
Red arm bands/swastikas/ss markings: Why would you do this? Even if you changed all the swastikas on arm bands to imperial eagles, it is clear what you mean, because there is no background precedence of people running around with red arm bands as standard uniform in Warhammer 40k. SS markings are out of place completely too.
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Post by: yakface
Here is the thread you want to read if you really want to drown yourself in this topic:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209982.page
And here's my take on the issue (it was the last post in that thread before I locked it):
Obviously the use of potentially offensive real-world images in a science fiction miniature game is a tricky situation, as evidenced by the discussion on this forum. The reactions from people range from: "This is ridiculous it is a miniature game, it doesn't matter what you put on your models" to "The use of such themes and images is clearly a statement being pushed by the creator."
This sort of outrage and counter-outrage at the outrage is eeirly reminiscent of the last time a really well-painted model incorporated real-world iconography. . .Victor Hardy's Greater Daemon model that had an image of a daemonic Madonna/baby Jesus painted onto it.
What both these cases illustrate is that, like life, whenever you display something as your own, be it a t-shirt, bumper sticker, or miniature, this is a form of communication that other people will see, interpret and come to their own conclusions about you and why you have chosen to put forth whatever message they believe you are sending. The problem with a miniature (or any other work of art), is that the meaning behind the creator's work isn't always clear, at least not as clear as a T-shirt saying: "White Power!", which obviously has a pretty succinct message.
So without personally knowing the creator, or the ultimate goal or meaning of his work people are left to judge what has been put forth at face value and decide for themselves if it is a harmless incorporation of historical themes or rather it is a cleverly designed piece of propaganda.
I'm sure that if we were able to meet the creator in person, 95% of us would be able to judge in fairly short order what type of person he was and that judgement would quickly change our perception of his work. But the problem with the internet, or if we were to view pictures of the army in another format, is that we don't get to physically meet the person who created the army and without that basic connection many of us will forever be in doubt of their motives, no matter what they write about their intentions.
All of which begs the question: Even if the creator has absolutely no ill-will in mind with his work, why would he go to such (obviously) great lengths to create something that will be found in poor taste by a large percentage of the population? Gaming is a social hobby and for the most part the goal is for you and your opponent to have a good time playing against each other. So why would someone wish to create an army that they would essentially have to explain themselves everytime they play against a new player?
Which opens up a whole different slew of questions: Did the creator really think that no one would be offended by his work? If so, how could he possibly be so naive? If not, why would he want subject himself to the hassle of dealing with repeated negative allegations stemming from his work? Is he desperate for attention or does he really have an agenda he's trying to push?
We can go around in circles trying to guess the answers to these questions but the only person who knows for sure is the creator, and he's not participating in the discussion, so at some point it just becomes a case of everyone else spinning their wheels trying to guess the answer when there cannot be one found.
But ultimately, these are legitimate questions that need to be asked and discussed by the gaming community as it will be people like us that play games against armies like this and everyone needs to be fully aware of how other people will react to different images. I think this army, and this discussion, have done a very good job of showing the different sides of this difficult subject.
Anytime you incorporate real-world iconography into your army you have to be prepared for people to interpret those symbols and come to their own conclusions about what you have created. The more potent the real-world symbol, the more likely that others will draw negative conclusions about your motives. Finally, if you use potent real-world images on your models knowing that you will draw negative reactions from a good percentage of people you show it to, what does that say about yourself?
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Post by: Doctor Thunder
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yep.
Why?
Hussein is one of the most common names on Earth, up there with Mohammed and 李
I forget who but remember hearing there's a prominent American with the middle name Hussein
I figured it's time it was reclaimed and people stopped thinking of Moslem=Terrorist=Evil.
Now if someone starts researching Talliban uniforms and making up rules for crashing Thunderhawks into buildings...
Well that's something different.
Sorry, Kyoto, not buying it. When you have a Jihad army you forfeit the right to criticize someone for having a nazi army and have people take you seriously. It would be like me bashing someone for making a female marine army.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
Jaric, the exchange between Doc and Kyoto is a good example of what Yakface just wrote and what you're setting yourself up for.
If you use obvious German uniforms and symbols you're playing with people perceptions and stereotypes. Consider the use of the word Jihad. To most Americans it is a negative term. Full of evil and hate, like Nazi or Communist. To the Terrorists it means "struggle in the way of God". You compliment the bastards every time you use it to describe them. Regardless of how unfair it is, WW2 Germans = Nazi in the public's mind. Most will not know the difference or give you the chance to explain it.
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Post by: Lord Kaesar II
i'll absolutely say: go as far as you want. besides the demonized swastikas, you've got the potential for a prety brutal army. and no, i'm not hating on jews or being extremist, just saying that i'd find it fun to fight near 'german army during WWII', naturally minus the swastika and armband. but with the SS part, i'd say, if you want to, go for it. but, expect some flak for that. you can't fly a plane in a warzone without it
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Post by: Sidstyler
I figured it's time it was reclaimed and people stopped thinking of Moslem=Terrorist=Evil.
...and you're going to do that with a "jihad" lead by a guy named Hussein?
Muslims aren't evil terrorists, it's like claiming all Christians are like Fred Phelps. You can't judge an entire group of people based on a handful of extremists who pervert and misrepresent their respective religions (and in an effort to practice what I preach I've actually fallen in love with a Muslim girl ). But honestly I'm not sure I understand how exactly your army is going to be breaking any stereotypes, it reminds me of the plethora of Nazi-themed armies that have been the topic of discussion lately. 
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Post by: cadbren
Platuan4th wrote:Mecharius wrote:Hitler stole the swastika from the romans, the same witht he "nazi" salute so do we hate the romans now too?????
Wow, are you ever misinformed.
The Nazis took the Swastika from the Hindu and Buddhists. It's an Asiatic symbol dating back to the Neolithic period and had NOTHING to do with Rome.
As well, the actual Roman military salute was a single right handed fist clenched over the left breast. It's actually unknown(and highly unlikely) whether the "Roman Salute" was actually used by the Romans at all(there is no evidence to support the claim that they used it) and may just be an artistic license taken by French artists in the 18th Century, as this is the first time in history there is any record of this gesture existing at all.
Next time, know a little history before stating these things.
That salute is referenced as the Roman salute though. It may well be an 18th century fiction but that's what it's called. As for the swastika, or hakenkruetz (hooked cross), it is first recorded in Europe carved into mammoth bones. These are from the Ukraine and date back to around 10,000 BC, long before it appeared in India.
The swastika appears in the art of the ancient celts, romans and greeks.
The nazis adopted the swastika because many of their members came from the Thule society, a nationalist quasi-pagan group and the swastika is the symbol of the german god Woden (the god that Wedensday is named in honour of). You'll note that the nazis also liked using ancient runes as symbols.
Because it was such a common symbol at one time it appears as decoration in many older buildings including some synagogues as well of course in churches. The swastika, which is ultimately used as a good luck charm was coming back into fashion until 30s propaganda associated it solely with the nazis and so people outside of Germany stopped using it.
Today a number of pagan groups use it but with some debate because of it's nazi associations.
A third reich themed IG army wouldn't need it anyway, but a black aquila in a white circle on a red background with the appropriate amount of gold edging would look pretty good.
Your basic troops could be painted as late war german infantry (no jackboots), collar tabs are just those double line doohickies, they look like this 'II' but on their side with an eagle on their right breast.
Stormtroopers would be SS of course with cammo uniforms and an eagle on their left uper arm.
Now if you have some ogryn, I've always thought they would make good skinheads, just give them heaps of tattoos.
Commisars are the only ones I can think of that would have red arm bands on their left arms.
Also, I saw on the net someone had a german WWII themed army and they had converted a bunch of 1/35th ? scale german models into guard ones; don't remember what the troops looked like though.
It's good to see armies based on actual history, they tend to be better looking than made up ones and in a small way they honour the sacrifices of all the real soldiers who have died throughout history.
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Post by: cadbren
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.
Yes you can. The nazi look was impressive. It is the epitome of fascist control, discipline and devotion. It is why it is constantly referenced in films such as Star Wars and Starship Troopers, why it inspires some of the art in 40K and why books on the SS are still popular; it's not their politics that people are interested in, it's the fact that they were one of the best fighting machines ever created and having companies like Hugo Boss designing your uniforms just makes things that much more impressive.
I can admire the mongol armies and their efficiency despite the nine million people they are reputed to have killed (most of them unarmed), I can do the same for the ancient Romans who also butchered entire peoples. If you are so offended by incocents being killed by groups such as the nazis then why are you playing a game which is about slaughtering the opposition (there's no diplomacy in the 40K universe). Why too do you have a japanese name and avatar if you are from china when the japanese butchered the chinese during WWII?
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Post by: Dave47
cadbren wrote:Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.
Yes you can. The nazi look was impressive. It is the epitome of fascist control, discipline and devotion. It is why it is constantly referenced in films such as Star Wars and Starship Troopers, why it inspires some of the art in 40K and why books on the SS are still popular; it's not their politics that people are interested in, it's the fact that they were one of the best fighting machines ever created and having companies like Hugo Boss designing your uniforms just makes things that much more impressive.
I can admire the mongol armies and their efficiency despite the nine million people they are reputed to have killed (most of them unarmed), I can do the same for the ancient Romans who also butchered entire peoples. If you are so offended by incocents being killed by groups such as the nazis then why are you playing a game which is about slaughtering the opposition (there's no diplomacy in the 40K universe). Why too do you have a japanese name and avatar if you are from china when the japanese butchered the chinese during WWII?
Keep in mind that "films such as Stat Wars and Starship Troopers" didn't go to great lengths to capture every detail of the Gestapo Uniforms. It's important to remember that the OP's question wasn't: "Hey, the paint scheme I like strongly resembles one the Nazis used, is that going to cause me problems?" It was" Hey guys, how much Nazi iconography can I squeeze into my IG army without getting into trouble?"
This isn't a case where someone's artistic choices piss off hypersensitve people. His stated goal is making a Nazi army. That's perfectly appropriate in Flames of War. But why should we go out of our way to drag that baggage into the 41st millenium?
I think making fun of Kid Kyoto is a red herring at best, and activley disingenuous at worst." Reclaiming "Husein" or "being Japanese" is very different from reclaiming "Nazi." Even if you believe that there are "good aspects" of a Nazi army, the OP isn't trying to capture those aspects. He's asking if he can model his officers as Gestapo agents.
There's no way to pretend that this is in good taste. And let's not compare this to the Mongols or Romans. No living human has relatives who were killed by those regimes. In the 4th millenium (or even the 22nd century) it may well be ok to model a Nazi army. Until then, let's try to observe some minimum standards of decorum and taste.
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Post by: namegoeshere
You can either get along with people, or you can get angry with them. If someone hasn't physically attacked, purposefully maliciously attacked you verbally, or is affecting your work or finance - then it's pretty much garunteed that it's just you being weird not someone else attacking you.
So live and let live. It is a grimdark universe where there is nothing but war, after all
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Post by: Sidstyler
I'm still not sure how "reclaiming Hussein" makes sense, but maybe that's just because I'm an idiot.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Dave47 wrote:
This isn't a case where someone's artistic choices piss off hypersensitve people. His stated goal is making a Nazi army. That's perfectly appropriate in Flames of War. But why should we go out of our way to drag that baggage into the 41st millenium?
I think making fun of Kid Kyoto is a red herring at best, and activley disingenuous at worst " Reclaiming "Husein" or "being Japanese" is very different from reclaiming "Nazi." Even if you believe that there are "good aspects" of a Nazi army, the OP isn't trying to capture those aspects. He's asking if he can model his officers as Gestapo agents.
Until then, let's try to observe some minimum standards of decorum and taste.
What's wrong with dragging the real world inspiration for things in to the 41st millennium? Nothing, there isn't anything wrong with it in fact Games Workshop does it themselves as has been pointed out earlier in the thread with mention of the Valhallan Regiments obviously modeled off of the WWII and 1950's military of the USSR, or the modeling of the Steel Legion loosely off of the Wehrmacht. In an Empire spanning millions of stars you can't tell me you couldn't imagine one of these fictional places to be similar to the workings of 1932-1945 Germany.
If you think about it reclaiming Hussein and Jihad is the same thing as trying to reclaim Nazi. For the American people, Jihad at least, and possibly Hussein at least if used along with some variation of Saddam will be considered taboo something that should be avoided. Jihad will for a while be an evil thing like the Nazis unless people can learn to accept things and move past them. Yes Nazis were bad and did horrible things, but it is the past a thing to be looked back on and learned from not scorned. Playing ignorant and attacking people that look at the Nazis as something more than just evil, but as something that was one of the military power houses of its time who helped pave the way for modern times in both military and civil applications. Learn from them, their mistakes and things that should have never been done.
There is nothing wrong with someone modeling things (like Gestapo Agents) off of groups from the past, look at the Inquisition its modeled off of the Spanish Inquisition and the Gestapo, they all do the same thing. Sure he's not making an Inquisitor a Gestapo Agent but the rule still applies.
How can you claim that there is no way to pretend that the idea is in good taste, yet mention Flames of War? Do you find that not to be in good taste or just pretend it doesn't happen most of the time? What about hobbyists that build Taymia or Dragon WWII models do you find that in bad taste as well?
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Post by: WaaaaghLord
but, people play nazi armies in games like Flames of War and other WW2 games
surely its just the same concept?
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Post by: thesuperiorninja
Dave47 wrote:cadbren wrote:Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Even if you 'only' admire their military you cannot divorce the military from its deeds and the government that created it.
Yes you can. The nazi look was impressive. It is the epitome of fascist control, discipline and devotion. It is why it is constantly referenced in films such as Star Wars and Starship Troopers, why it inspires some of the art in 40K and why books on the SS are still popular; it's not their politics that people are interested in, it's the fact that they were one of the best fighting machines ever created and having companies like Hugo Boss designing your uniforms just makes things that much more impressive.
I can admire the mongol armies and their efficiency despite the nine million people they are reputed to have killed (most of them unarmed), I can do the same for the ancient Romans who also butchered entire peoples. If you are so offended by incocents being killed by groups such as the nazis then why are you playing a game which is about slaughtering the opposition (there's no diplomacy in the 40K universe). Why too do you have a japanese name and avatar if you are from china when the japanese butchered the chinese during WWII?
Keep in mind that "films such as Stat Wars and Starship Troopers" didn't go to great lengths to capture every detail of the Gestapo Uniforms. It's important to remember that the OP's question wasn't: "Hey, the paint scheme I like strongly resembles one the Nazis used, is that going to cause me problems?" It was" Hey guys, how much Nazi iconography can I squeeze into my IG army without getting into trouble?"
This isn't a case where someone's artistic choices piss off hypersensitve people. His stated goal is making a Nazi army. That's perfectly appropriate in Flames of War. But why should we go out of our way to drag that baggage into the 41st millenium?
I think making fun of Kid Kyoto is a red herring at best, and activley disingenuous at worst." Reclaiming "Husein" or "being Japanese" is very different from reclaiming "Nazi." Even if you believe that there are "good aspects" of a Nazi army, the OP isn't trying to capture those aspects. He's asking if he can model his officers as Gestapo agents.
There's no way to pretend that this is in good taste. And let's not compare this to the Mongols or Romans. No living human has relatives who were killed by those regimes. In the 4th millenium (or even the 22nd century) it may well be ok to model a Nazi army. Until then, let's try to observe some minimum standards of decorum and taste.
How can you even say that his intention is to make a Nazi army out of ill will? Which is what you seem to be saying. Do you know this person? Is he a well known Neo-Nazi who also plays 40k? I think instead of making accusations toward someone lets answer his question. I say do it, but as stated, expect some flak. Besides, I'd bet anything he doesn't even check this thread anymore.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
So... just to be totally clear, if I rename Inquisitor Hussein then no one will ever do a Nazi IG army again?
DEAL!
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Post by: Sidstyler
If only we could be that lucky.
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Post by: Hordini
I don't think there's anything wrong with using some historically themed colors, and most people probably wouldn't recognize or automatically associate IG painted in a pseudo-Field Gray or with a bit of Splinter-pattern camo as "Nazi IG" anyway. The actual color of Field Gray varied so much throughout the war that it's almost pointless to discuss it much anyway.
When you start to add things like armbands, symbols and runes (even if you change the runes) you're really starting to push the envelope in a direction that you probably don't want to go. Besides the fact that it can be pretty distasteful, adding things like armbands tends to be doubly ridiculous because they are often added because people want what they think is a "historically accurate" army, even though troops didn't wear things like arm bands in combat.
I'd also be careful with replacing the swastika with the iron cross. Now, claiming that the iron cross is a Nazi symbol is incorrect, the modern Bundeswehr still uses it on their vehicles, for goodness sake. However, doing something like painting a blood flag and replacing the swastika with an iron cross is probably going to be frowned upon, because there is a strong implication there - it can be a way of invoking a swastika without actually painting one.
Basically, my policy is, if you are actually interested in the history, you should play a historical game. Historically-themed sci-fantasy armies rarely end up being executed as well as their creators imagined, and they usually just end up pretty lame and silly looking in general.
I wasn't going to re-post this, but I think my post from the thread Yakface linked to sums up my feelings a bit more completely.
As someone who plays historical wargames and sci-fi/fantasy wargames, who has studied a bit of the subjects of Germany and WWII, and who has family and friends who served and fought on both sides during the war, I have developed some pretty specific, and pretty strong feelings about this matter.
Let me also say up front that I have a German army for Flames of War, and am also working on a Soviet army.
Now, as to the original topic, I find the more that I see sci-fi and fantasy armies that are "based" on WWII Germany, the Soviet Union, or other military forces associated with extremist governments, the more I find it distasteful, and depending on the execution, a bit sickening.
As to the army that was recently "run out on a rail" in the modeling forum, I will say this: It was beautifully painted, and aside from some of the flags, didn't bother me that much. I thought the aerial recognition flag that just replaced the swastika with an iron cross was unnecessary, but the majority of the army was extremely well done and pulled from enough other non-Nazi sources that it didn't bother me.
The Kriegmarines on the other hand are nowhere near as well done (no offense to the Kriegmarine painter, but the other army was painted to a truly exceptional standard), and also in much poorer taste, in my opinion.
This may seem hypocritical to some that I find sci-fi or fantasy armies based on WWII Germany to be distasteful at best, but am okay with actual German armies in a WWII game, but please allow me to explain myself.
I think if you're modeling a German unit in a historical context, using historically accurate color schemes and equipment, and are doing it respectfully (i.e. in a way that is not glorifying units with histories of war crimes and that sort of thing) that there is no problem. I actually see this as a good thing because it can be used as a teaching tool, is promoting historical research and better understanding of the topic, and helps to ensure that the history is remembered.
I also think there is a limit to what should be modeled in good taste though. While I take no issue with gamers modeling German military units, I would find it disgusting if someone wanted to model a bunch of camp guards or an Einsatzgrupp. I also find it sickening when people model Waffen-SS units because they think they were "cool" but don't actually have any interest in learning about the history. I also have found it kind of sick when I've heard people talk about fielding Volkssturm militia or Hitlerjugend child soldiers, but those things are kind of sore subjects for me.
But my point is, in a historical context I see no problem in modeling and playing a WWII German army.
As said, I think doing a 40k army with WWII iconography is kind of wack. This is from a combination of reasons. The first (which is a generalization, I admit) is that most of these armies are poorly researched, and are modeled like people think the Germans looked, but for the most part are nowhere close to accurate about anything, and when you actually talk to the person it's often apparent that their knowledge of the subject is woefully limited. It always seems like they did it because they just think it's "cool" or because "the Germans were l33t" but don't actually know anything about the subject - which again, is something I take issue with even in historical games. They are taking a serious subject and turning it more or less into a crude science fiction inside joke ("My Space Marines are actually German - LOL!") which I find annoying because it dilutes the subject matter and cheapens the whole thing.
I also think that separating the subject from its historical context in some ways is a lot more glorifying (even unintentionally) than model a historical unit. At least with historicals, you are modeling something that happened. When someone does Nazi's in Space, I feel like they are implying (intentionally or not) that they need Nazis in Space because there aren't enough Nazis in the real world.
I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to model and play a German army from WWII, then model and play an actual German army from WWII, and try to develop a little understanding of what you are doing. Learn something from it.
But don't make a Nazis in Space army because you think Waffen-SS camouflage, arm bands, and blood flags look good on Imperial Guard miniatures. Please.
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Post by: Mattlov
WaaaaghLord wrote:but, people play nazi armies in games like Flames of War and other WW2 games
surely its just the same concept?
That's a really good point. People don't have a problem with Germans in FoW, can they really justify being angry or offended if the iconography is used in a different game?
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Post by: Hordini
Mattlov wrote:WaaaaghLord wrote:but, people play nazi armies in games like Flames of War and other WW2 games
surely its just the same concept?
That's a really good point. People don't have a problem with Germans in FoW, can they really justify being angry or offended if the iconography is used in a different game?
Please see my previous post. 
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Post by: yakface
Or to put it a little differently, when you are recreating something from the past, there is historical precedence and reference for why things look the way they look.
When you take iconography from the past and transpose onto something that doesn't have that reference, then you are (unfortunately) making a statement of intent. While you may have the most simple of intentions for doing this, people who see your work DON'T KNOW THIS and therefore will tend to judge the work at face value, which ultimately leads to issues.
It is the difference between taking a dodge charger and painting it up exactly as it looked in the dukes of hazard and taking some random car (a honda civic, for example) and just painting a confederate flag on the roof.
The former has some sort of historical reference while the latter does not. While you may have just painted a confederate flag on the roof of your honda civic because you like 'dukes of hazard' people seeing your car aren't going to automatically know that and many will therefore assume you are potentially a racist.
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Post by: kennyalhavg
do it, ive seen it done before... but with swatztikas
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Post by: Captain_Cow
I say go for it, they may have done a lot of terrible things but one has to admit that they have awsome uniforms.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Hordini wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with using some historically themed colors, and most people probably wouldn't recognize or automatically associate IG painted in a pseudo-Field Gray or with a bit of Splinter-pattern camo as "Nazi IG" anyway. The actual color of Field Gray varied so much throughout the war that it's almost pointless to discuss it much anyway.
But aren't we skirting the issue. It seems we're back to saying 'here's how to show your admiration for Nazi Germany without getting caught'.
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Post by: Captain_Cow
Just do it WITHOUT the nazi iconography(?), stick to the color scheme that the WWII German troops used. If still that bothers them so much then have them complain to Forge World for this line of IG troops:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/DEATH_KORPS_OF_KRIEG.html
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Post by: Hordini
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Hordini wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with using some historically themed colors, and most people probably wouldn't recognize or automatically associate IG painted in a pseudo-Field Gray or with a bit of Splinter-pattern camo as "Nazi IG" anyway. The actual color of Field Gray varied so much throughout the war that it's almost pointless to discuss it much anyway.
But aren't we skirting the issue. It seems we're back to saying 'here's how to show your admiration for Nazi Germany without getting caught'.
Well, that wasn't my intent. I'm not sure that using a color scheme that utilizes Field Gray or a similar color is necessarily showing your admiration for Nazi Germany. The actual uniform color varied widely, and the Germans weren't the only ones to use similar colors, and its use wasn't restricted to the Third Reich. There are lots of 40k armies (especially IG) already out there that use a field gray color, and I don't think that's enough to call them "Nazi themed" or a way of showing admiration for the Third Reich, any more than using an olive drab color on Cadians makes them U.S. themed.
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Post by: Hordini
And also, could we stop bringing up the Death Korps of Krieg as an example of Nazi-themed armies? This is another example of how what a lot of 40k players think WWII German uniforms look like isn't really accurate. Somebody already said it, but the DKOK have just as much French influence as German, and they are more WWI-themed anyway.
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Post by: Captain_Cow
Sorry about that Hordini.
Anyway, if it makes you happy and there is no malicious intent then start painting.
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Post by: Hordini
Eh, no need to apologize. That probably came off a bit more harsh than I meant i to.
I guess I understand why people bring up the DKOK, as they do have some strong (but mixed) historical influences (like many of GWs armies), but the important thing is that they are still clearly sci-fantasy miniatures, and they certainly don't feature real world iconography or imply it with things like armbands.
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Post by: malfred
Why not just use historical minis then?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Ifurita wrote:I would just do it. Without the nazi symbology, it's hardly a super unique set of colors
I agree. It's the Nazi symbols or anything closely resembling them which sets people off.
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Post by: Jaric
Wow I leave for a day and a whole debate happens!
I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject, both those for and against. A lively debate is much better than a lynching...
Kid Kyoto I actually did not mean to imply I was trying to cram as much Nazis as I could and get away with it. I wanted peoples opinions on if I painted this army a certain way, how much flak would I get.
And no I would not merely take what I think is Nazis garb and paint it on some Cadians. I am a History Grad, and I would put some effort into learning what is supposed to look like what. Im a stickler for detail.
As for a followup, the Cadian heads dont really fit the German style (look more like US or Canadian GI's). Does anyone know of any heads that would fit better?
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Hordini wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with using some historically themed colors, and most people probably wouldn't recognize or automatically associate IG painted in a pseudo-Field Gray or with a bit of Splinter-pattern camo as "Nazi IG" anyway. The actual color of Field Gray varied so much throughout the war that it's almost pointless to discuss it much anyway.
But aren't we skirting the issue. It seems we're back to saying 'here's how to show your admiration for Nazi Germany without getting caught'.
I'd hate to call you out again, but I thought people decided you didn't get an opinion because of your "Jihad". The army its self isn't offensive to me, much like how a Nazi Germany Army wouldn't offend me, they're both great ideas as long as they are done tastefully. What bothers me most about your army and the fact that you post against a German Army is your blatant hypocrisy on the issue. Both themes are essentially the same something viewed as wrong and not PC yet you seem to think that because one is Muslims(Radical or Not) not Nazis, its instantly better than the other, when both have done horrible things.
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Post by: punkisntdeadyet
Another thing that should be taken into consideration is the fact that there are still a lot of racist jerks who still flaunt the nazi imagery.
By putting it in your model army, you're basically drawing a connection between the neo-nazi's and your army. It's honestly a little much for people (and me).
While I respect artistic integrity and freedom of expression, there are reasons why genocides/nazi themed anything are innappropriate for our toy soldiers.
Also, on Stelek's blog he has a link to a pretty interesting read about "crossing the line".
http://lauby.blogspot.com/
I'm sure people will have mixed reactions to this, but I think he/she (although I think lauby is a dude) raises some pretty good points.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Hordini wrote:
Well, that wasn't my intent. I'm not sure that using a color scheme that utilizes Field Gray or a similar color is necessarily showing your admiration for Nazi Germany. The actual uniform color varied widely, and the Germans weren't the only ones to use similar colors, and its use wasn't restricted to the Third Reich. There are lots of 40k armies (especially IG) already out there that use a field gray color, and I don't think that's enough to call them "Nazi themed" or a way of showing admiration for the Third Reich, any more than using an olive drab color on Cadians makes them U.S. themed.
But he's not asking if using grey is a problem. I have a grey army. I have a gray army with WWII German helmets and a Nazi armored car in it. But I'm in no way trying to recreate the 3rd reich on the table top, any more than using Soviet armored cars means I'm a commie.
The original post asked about using a historically accurate Nazi paint scheme. He wants his army to look like the 3rd Reich. But not have anyone notice or get upset.
Well you can't have one without using their iconography and I must wonder why of all the historical paint schemes on Earth, why of all the paint schemes possible in the imagination ANYONE would choose Nazi German, especially if they say they don't admire the 3rd Reich. Then why emulate it?
Doesn't add up.
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Post by: Phryxis
Let me preface this with the obligatory (though true): I'm Jewish.
The fact is, the US has become a world leader in the creation of a Cult of Offense Taking. To be Offended is to be empowered. The political correctness movement is the bedrock of all this ridiculousness, and establishes the special Rules of Offense, which we're all supposed to obey and potentially be empowered by.
So, there's a simple reason why it seems contradictory that one could play Nazis in FOW, but be shrieked at for playing a Nazi themed army in 40K: it's because it IS contradictory, stupid and ridiculous.
We're trying to paint evil armies. Did I paint my Tyranids to be harmless and friendly? My Chaos? Dark Eldar? Etc. Etc. No. They're supposed to be evil.
That said, and as has been covered by numerous people, you will no doubt get shrieked at for painting a heavily Nazi themed army. Being able to identify the ridiculousness of people's infantile morality does not mean you are exempt from being on the receiving end of it.
As has been hinted at in this thread, it's odd how the Nazis are the height of evil, while other equally terrible (or even worse) governments are given more of a pass.
Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the horrible acts of these Communist leaders are downplayed due to the political proximity of Communism to Socialism (which we're told is wonderful and benign). By comparison, Fascism is generally viewed as a corruption of the "right" side of the political spectrum, and thus a useful rhetorical ploy to attack conservative ideologies (ignoring the fact that the Nazis called themselves socialists).
So, take all that with a grain of salt, but consider this:
The fact that we're at a place where somebody's artistic expression, their creative outlet, their hobby, can make them a victim of censorship by their fellow hobbyist, sounds a lot like Fascism itself. You've got the citizenry itself acting as your vehicle of censorship, ostracizing and excluding those who don't toe the line.
In my opinion, if you really hate the Nazis and Fascism, a good place to start would be in learning to let other people do their thing, enjoy what they enjoy, paint how they want to paint, and not be your own one person Gestapo enforcement squad, making sure that "impure" thought is not permitted.
The opposite of totalitarian mind control isn't "totally sweet and correct totalitarian mind control." It's "not having totalitarian mind control."
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Post by: Phryxis
ANYONE would choose Nazi German, especially if they say they don't admire the 3rd Reich. Then why emulate it?
Precisely because they don't? Because it's a symbol of evil?
Why did GW draw so heavily on the Nazis in their imagery? Do they admire the Nazis?
Actually, to some extent, we all do. We all admire the evilness of them. Their brutal efficiency, their command of imagery, propaganda, etc. They REALLY did evil.
It's like how people admire sharks. Do people actually LIKE sharks? Want to be friends? Play some XBox, have a beer? No. They admire how scary sharks are. How efficient they are as killers. How everything about them screams "killer sea monster." Is killing good? Is scariness good? No. But it still has a fearful appeal, like a trainwreck.
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Post by: Che-Vito
Phryxis wrote:
Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the horrible acts of these Communist leaders are downplayed due to the political proximity of Communism to Socialism (which we're told is wonderful and benign). By comparison, Fascism is generally viewed as a corruption of the "right" side of the political spectrum, and thus a useful rhetorical ploy to attack conservative ideologies (ignoring the fact that the Nazis called themselves socialists).
Oh jeez, I think the above statement made my IQ drop at LEAST several points...please try to put some thought into the words that you type, unless you truely believe that there is some grand conspiracy to "fight the right", and in that case, I would suggest that you:
- stop listening to Rush Limbaugh, (some village has been missing THAT idiot for far too long)
- stop playing so much Illuminati (wonderful game though it may be.)
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Post by: Phryxis
please try to put some thought into the words that you type, unless you truely believe that there is some grand conspiracy to "fight the right", and in that case, I would suggest that you
No conspiracy required. If a group of likeminded people are all asked the same question, they don't have to have a shady backroom meeting to determine what they think. They're likeminded people. Their answers will tend to be similar.
And yes, I'm saying that the American media are "likeminded people."
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Phryxis wrote:
No conspiracy required. If a group of likeminded people are all asked the same question, they don't have to have a shady backroom meeting to determine what they think. They're likeminded people. Their answers will tend to be similar.
And yes, I'm saying that the American media are "likeminded people."
While I will say I agree with you to a point, i will also say that I have given up on left and right. Neither one is vary useful the way they are these days.
Let me also point out that a discussion on this matter might be better suited else where. This thread is derailed easily enough as it is.
*Repenting to yakface for earlier transgression*
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Post by: Jaric
Lol I tried to bring it back with has anyone seen variant german style heads I can use when I build this army but no one was listening...damn soap box...
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
For German style helmets you could try Tamiya or Dragon models, though I'm not sure how effective that would be.
You could always try to file and green stuff helmets to make them look more like the M1934 Stahlhelm
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Post by: Phryxis
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/227882.page
In this very forum... Looks like the Perry Bros made some German heads (though with gasmasks).
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Post by: whitedragon
Phryxis wrote:Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the horrible acts of these Communist leaders are downplayed due to the political proximity of Communism to Socialism (which we're told is wonderful and benign). By comparison, Fascism is generally viewed as a corruption of the "right" side of the political spectrum, and thus a useful rhetorical ploy to attack conservative ideologies (ignoring the fact that the Nazis called themselves socialists).
WHAT?
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Post by: Hordini
Kid_Kyoto wrote:But he's not asking if using grey is a problem. I have a grey army. I have a gray army with WWII German helmets and a Nazi armored car in it. But I'm in no way trying to recreate the 3rd reich on the table top, any more than using Soviet armored cars means I'm a commie.
So....are we disagreeing about something? I seriously can't tell.
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Well you can't have one without using their iconography and I must wonder why of all the historical paint schemes on Earth, why of all the paint schemes possible in the imagination ANYONE would choose Nazi German, especially if they say they don't admire the 3rd Reich. Then why emulate it?
Okay. I think I'm with you on this, at least in terms of historically influenced sci-fantasy armies. As I stated previously, I agree that it would be pretty wack to paint a 40k army in a historically accurate Nazi color scheme, complete with iconography (to the extent that Nazis with lasguns and flak armor can be historically accurate, that is). But do you think that someone painting and playing with a German army in a historical game like Flames of War is doing so because of a wish to emulate or admire the 3rd Reich?
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Post by: Sgt.Roadkill
Platuan4th wrote:Mecharius wrote:Hitler stole the swastika from the romans, the same witht he "nazi" salute so do we hate the romans now too?????
Wow, are you ever misinformed.
The Nazis took the Swastika from the Hindu and Buddhists. It's an Asiatic symbol dating back to the Neolithic period and had NOTHING to do with Rome.
As well, the actual Roman military salute was a single right handed fist clenched over the left breast. It's actually unknown(and highly unlikely) whether the "Roman Salute" was actually used by the Romans at all(there is no evidence to support the claim that they used it) and may just be an artistic license taken by French artists in the 18th Century, as this is the first time in history there is any record of this gesture existing at all.
Next time, know a little history before stating these things.
i don't want to sound erm... like i am being picky but the Nazis didn't take it form hindus, it was used on Geometric patterns on pottery which shows up all over the place, in cloth by native americans, Hellenistic greeks etc
IN all likely hood it was taken from Germanic adn gothic pottery cause of its arian association
try reading this
http://www.ireference.ca/search/swastika/
you might want to educate yourself before you accuse peopel about not knowing history
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Post by: alarmingrick
"Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. "
so, one wrong is okay since it's not as wrong or popular as the other? WTF? all 3 are wrong, bad, evil...you name it. and don't try to drag the current U.S. political debate into this already raging debate. we have plenty of fuel without bringing left/right into it.
i'll say this one last thing, then i'm done with this insane arguement. i think we play wargames set in the future to escape the horrors and BS of reality. i don't get a Nazi feel from the IG. if anything i get a Roman empire vibe from the IG. granted that's my vibe, not saying that's how everyone sees it. just me. by doing an IG army that uses the Nazi theme glorifies it. it doesn't open peoples eyes to the true horror of what they really meant.
if we are going to look at the "cool and spiffy" colors and uniforms, then lets look at what they did while wearing them, too.
1
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Post by: Sgt.Roadkill
look i am sorry but preatorian guard should fall into the same catogory then.
they are based on colonial british troops who did thigns very similar to the nazi a mere 50+ years before. you can't just pick and choose what you exclude.
if theperson has nazi style uniforms thats ok imo, its hwne they start doing the whoel ss and relaly spammign the nazi icongrophy that you get rela issues and i totally agree with that. simky having troops painted in simailar colours to say SS storm troopers or similar.... can't be classified
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Post by: ghostmaker
I have no problem if he where to paint red arm bands with aquillas in them;showing there devtion to the emperor and blah blah and such. thats just me if you can paint it and make it look amazing more power to ya!
I'm sure if you did the finnish cross on some stuff people would freak out to.
But in the end paint what you want how you want just use common sense.
Nothing GW has made is overly Nazi looking at all DKOK is a combo of french and german in ww1 Now fluff wise is a different and would take pages up.
But where just talking about painting IMO it's fine I did my Drop Guard in Fallschirmjäger uniforms.
What we need to do here is also to think also not all German Army or Fallschirmjäger or Marine, Units where Nazi's it was really the high command and SS thats it really.
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Post by: Shattered Soul
Platuan4th wrote:Jaric wrote:And I didnt mean to derail it with the Nazis v Japanese...its just weird how Nazis are just inhuman monsters to some people, and portraying ww2 Japanese in a poor light is offensive because some countries locked up their citizens in wartime.
It's all about public perception. We still hear about the Nazis and have it held up as the ultimate evil today, but other than Pearl Harbor and the dropping of the bombs, the average person doesn't hear/talk about or perhaps know much about the Pacific Theater. Even looking at history shows/channels on TV, it's almost a 4:1 ratio(or more) of shows about Nazi German in relation to anything else WW2 related.
Hell, I know people who don't believe me when I tell them about how xenophobic/racist Japanese can be at times because their idea of Japan and Japanese society is Anime/Vidja games/Otaku.
No crap... The Japanese still to this day have xenophobic leanings and for those of you who pay attention it's not that subtle. We got so used to loving the Japanese that now the only people who like Germans(Nazi or otherwise) are either sexual deviants or labeled as Nazi sympathizers. What about those of us who just have pride in our society, and would prefer to know about all its history. I personally am doing a Nazi themed Inquisitorial Guard army and most people who I've tole the idea to liked it. I'm using the red flag, just instead of a cross or swastika I am simply using the Imperial Fist Gauntlet symbol.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Sgt.Roadkill wrote:i don't want to sound erm... like i am being picky but the Nazis didn't take it form hindus, it was used on Geometric patterns on pottery which shows up all over the place, in cloth by native americans, Hellenistic greeks etc IN all likely hood it was taken from Germanic adn gothic pottery cause of its arian association try reading this http://www.ireference.ca/search/swastika/ you might want to educate yourself before you accuse peopel about not knowing history
I do know about the European history of the Swastika, thanks. I chose to use the Asian history based on the fact that the word itself is based upon the Sanskrit word स्वस्तिक(translated as svástika) and that Himmler and several other important Nazi figures believed that the Aryan culture and its remnants might be found in Tibet and India. Sorry that I didn't explain my reasoning to everyone.
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Post by: deadly chicken
I am entirly against the idea. why would anyone think naziss and genocide is cool?
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Post by: PanamaG
Phryxis wrote:
Take Stalin and Mao, both of whom killed far more poeple than Hitler ever did. The conspiracy theorist in me says that the horrible acts of these Communist leaders are downplayed due to the political proximity of Communism to Socialism (which we're told is wonderful and benign). By comparison, Fascism is generally viewed as a corruption of the "right" side of the political spectrum, and thus a useful rhetorical ploy to attack conservative ideologies (ignoring the fact that the Nazis called themselves socialists).
Well said.
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Post by: Jaric
Deadly chicken no one thinks genocide is cool. This is about a military colour scheme recreated on miniatures. Im not doing this to support Nazis, and I am rather insulted that you are implying I am.
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Post by: deadly chicken
i was not implying you were however I dont even like the idea of a swastika symbol! what would it make people think? I was not considering you supported Nazis but other people might if they see a swastica on your army banner.
p.s sorry for insulting you
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Post by: Jaric
No harm no foul Chicken. I guess it wouldnt help my image in that I am also white and shave my head.
But not a Nazis. Promise.
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Post by: Pake
Finnish military has used the swastika on their planes looong before A.H. ripped it off. I know the finns aren't offended by the
Although it was blue on white background and stood flat on the side, not on it's corner like the A.H. version, it was stilla swastika. It is still in use today.
Do people really think Hitler invented swastika?
He didn't invent anything, instead he ripped everything off - the ancient Rome being the biggest influence.
I say go with the grey uniform.
If people get offended by an army with grey uniforms, so be it. I bet then they will be offended by a lot of other stuff as well.
Just my two cents.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Jaric wrote: I guess it wouldnt help my image in that I am also white and shave my head.
Yeah, you should especially avoid the imagery of the Nazi party, then. You'll be auto pegged as a skinhead/Neo-Nazi otherwise.
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Post by: Phryxis
so, one wrong is okay since it's not as wrong or popular as the other?
I don't think I said that. I don't think I even implied that. I don't think I even SORT OF implied that.
What I said, quite clearly, is that the atrocities of Stalin and Mao are not given enough consideration relative to the crimes of Hitler. Mao in particular is given nearly a free pass for murdering tens of millions.
we have plenty of fuel without bringing left/right into it.
This is about the seven hundreth time this thread has happened. You're right, it's not really about left and right, but after seven hundred threads, I get so tired of seeing the Political Correctness Gestapo tell somebody what they're allowed to paint something, I speak my mind.
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Post by: Che-Vito
Jaric wrote:No harm no foul Chicken. I guess it wouldnt help my image in that I am also white and shave my head.
You just answered your own question than. If you want to paint this army and keep it around yourself and your friends, go for it.
If you want to look like a Neo-Nazi moron, then by all means, bring your Nazi-themed army and shaved head to tournaments, and see how many people want anything to do with you. It's all about their perceptions at that point man.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Pake wrote:Finnish military has used the swastika on their planes looong before A.H. ripped it off. I know the finns aren't offended by the
Although it was blue on white background and stood flat on the side, not on it's corner like the A.H. version, it was stilla swastika. It is still in use today.
To be exact, it's in use in a much smaller capacity than it used to be. On airplanes, it was replaced by a white-and-blue roundel after WW2. But several medals and flags still show it quite prominently.
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Post by: Vargtass
Well, since stupidity seems to run rampant throughout this thread, I will give my opinion.
As a part jew who's grandfather lived through the hell of the Shoah and the concentration camps I will give my blessing, because in the end it is just a color scheme. Flecktarn, the camoflage of the German army in this day and age was first used by the fallsckirmjäger of the Third Reich and no one seems to be offended by that. Feldgrau (field-grey) is just a color, not a symbol of Nazi-sympathy from your side.
Also I want to point out that there is a catch though. If I see you posting SS-colors I will be concerned for your social safety, that color scheme is still a bit of a nono. Wehrmacht however should be no problem. Take that from me who have reenacted as a Wehrmacht Feldvebel for years. Hell, I sought my gramp's permissions and blessings before I started with it and he said that it was good that I would be getting to go out in the sun and get healthy. Many Wehrmacht soldiers he told me were very friendly and helpful towards jews and most just never cared enough to rat them out.
And to Che-Vito: So shaved head means Neo-Nazi? Then I guess I have to go torch down a synagogue and shout Sieg Heil.
Hals und Beinbruch
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Post by: rexscarlet
Blah, blah, the Swastika was used before by everyone else, yes-yes-yes, but those times are gone, and what it represents now is PC unacceptable.
So;
Swastika;
Probably not, even historical model manufactures (WWII) do not even show it on the box art/image any longer because of PC and feelings and such (tear), but the decal is still included inside, so?
Goose-stepping posed guard;
Again, probably not a good idea.
Anything that may be considered in poor taste to an opponent, probably not a good idea;
Orks eating Tau babies, Etc. no matter how cool that would be!!!!
As for the rest, GO ahead, you would not be “wrong.” GW Imperial Eagle? etc…
Besides;
GW/ FW armor is not emulating WWII Japanese Tanks (cus day is da lamest, I keeed, I keeed) http://www.tankmuseum.ru/images/pav7-11.jpg But seriously, judge for yourself.
I cannot believe this thread is FIVE (5) PAGES, lol
I can hardly wait for all the "nose art" that will get painted on the new plastic Valkyrie model, lol
I am painting my Flames of War Germans; fuschia am I wrong?
The answer is not required.
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Post by: Grubsnik
rexscarlet wrote:Blah, blah, the Swastika was used before by everyone else, yes-yes-yes, but those times are gone, and what it represents now is PC unacceptable.
Really?
Do you want to go and tell that to the Buddhists, Hindus and numerous others who still use it?
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Post by: Gwar!
Its also still used heavily in many Asian (Sub Continent as well as Far East) cultures. But we are missing the point, this isn't about "Is the Swastika Bad?" because it is not. Its "Is it wrong to use it in a Nazi Context?"
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Post by: smiling Assassin
Can I just add...    Interpret what you will. I just painted an Imperial Guard platoon in German Fatigues, so what? And also, the Death Korps of Krieg are German in but the bastardized name. They're based off French WW1 soldiers. There's not even a large amount of german influence in there - even the helmet is mainly French. Get out of my internets. sA
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Post by: RogueMarket
I need to do a Khmer Rouge Army.
I doubt much people will be offended.
(Pol pot made Hitler look like childs play, with his genocide)
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Post by: George Spiggott
Check the latest White Dwarf for some Heer inspired Imperial Guard.
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Post by: Phryxis
(Pol pot made Hitler look like childs play, with his genocide)
Yet another genocide that doesn't get a huge amount of coverage because it has the double whammy of being perpetrated by Communists, and coming as a result of the American withdrawl from Vietnam.
That said Pol Pot was not objectively "worse" than Hitler. He was very, very bad, and he killed a lot of people, but the millions he killed are comparable in number to Hitler's genocides, not more. Add in the fact that Hitler instigated WWII, and Hitler is probably "worse" than Pol Pot (by a great margin).
Plus, hey... He was a Communist. And Communism is a "great idea" that just keeps getting "twisted" by evil men, right? Right? Right? I mean, look at Cuba... Er... IT'S GREAT!
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Post by: cadbren
yakface wrote:
The former has some sort of historical reference while the latter does not. While you may have just painted a confederate flag on the roof of your honda civic because you like 'dukes of hazard' people seeing your car aren't going to automatically know that and many will therefore assume you are potentially a racist.
Ignorant people should not be pandered to but educated. I got into a discussion once with a Roman reenactor about whether to put swastikas on a shield that had otherwise been painted to look like the one found at Duro Europos. In the end he did and it's caused no problems. It raises some questions from time to time by the public which is good because those people get to know more about the shield and that symbol's use in ancient times.
Ignorant people when left to their own devices do stupid things like protesting outside hindu temples because a muslim terrorist has just set off another bomb, or hassle paediatricians because they think they're pedophiles.
The whole concept of pc to me seems more akin to brainwashing than people getting along with one another. Someone will always take offence which is why it's better to teach the art of compromise than the blunt stick approach of pc.
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Post by: cadbren
Vargtass wrote: If I see you posting SS-colors I will be concerned for your social safety, that color scheme is still a bit of a nono.
Hals und Beinbruch
What are ss colours? Do you mean the black dress uniforms with the red armbands or something else?
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Post by: cadbren
To the poster who reckoned that krieg helmets were more french, they're obviously german but have a crest that is inspired by the french adrian helmet. Both helmets being inspired by mediaeval ones.
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Post by: cadbren
Jaric wrote:Wow I leave for a day and a whole debate happens!
I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject, both those for and against. A lively debate is much better than a lynching...
Kid Kyoto I actually did not mean to imply I was trying to cram as much Nazis as I could and get away with it. I wanted peoples opinions on if I painted this army a certain way, how much flak would I get.
And no I would not merely take what I think is Nazis garb and paint it on some Cadians. I am a History Grad, and I would put some effort into learning what is supposed to look like what. Im a stickler for detail.
As for a followup, the Cadian heads dont really fit the German style (look more like US or Canadian GI's). Does anyone know of any heads that would fit better?
West wind productions sells them. They have both gasmask and non gasmask versions.
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Post by: deadly chicken
I guess you could use the original swastika which limbs face in the opposite direction from the nazi version. the original signifies peace and life the nazi version does the complete opposite!
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Post by: rexscarlet
Grubsnik
This post is about painting an IG Army WWII 3rd Reich.
The Swastika memtioned in my post is IN RELATION TO THAT.
As there were prevalent Swastikas through-out said Army; flags on top of vehicles, armbands, insigina, etc.
I was saying in the WWII context, not a good idea.
Since this is a NON-Historical game; WWII "German" Swastika = not a good idea, as it is not very PC, is that better?
I still want to make Orks eating Tau babies...
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Post by: LuciusAR
As far as I'm aware the Swastika didn’t actually appear on the uniforms of the Heer. The Waffen SS I'm not so sure about.
To be honest this is mute point, one can be inspired by the military uniforms, tactics and battles of a nation without glorifying the politics of said nation. After all the British Empire was responsible for some horrific atrocities in its time yet no one would suggest that collecting a Praetorian army made you some kind of apologist.
The Idea that doing a German inspired IG army makes one some kind of Nazi sympathiser is AFAIC deeply offensive. What exactly then would you imply about the WW2 historical gaming communities? Perhaps you would like to go to the FOW community and make this claim?
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Post by: Shaman
You need to do a test model and post it here.
Make this thread worth something. Then everyone can get up in arms bout his red arm band.
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Post by: Gitzbitah
Oh yes. We definitely need a 'Hot or Nazi' poll on these models.
Bad puns aside, it would be nice to see a test model. The paint probably has less of a negative connotation than the words used to describe it.
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Post by: LunaHound
I have stayed out of this thread for abit! ( there was an identical thread a month or 2 back )
If you really care about what others think , sticking with the color is perfectly fine, but leave the swastika out.
If you really cant figure out why its bad taste, sure ignore what we all say and go for it. ( Experience the result first hand yourself which is better than what we can warn you with right? )
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Post by: LuciusAR
I think people need to differentiate between Nazi (member of the ruling political party in WW2) and Whermacht (member of the German armed forces). I agree that specifically doing armies based upon the Gestapo, concentration camp service or death squads is pushing boundaries of good taste. The Waffen SS is a bit of a grey area in so much that they were field units and weren't directly involved in Nazi Atrocities. But armies based on the Heer (Army) I've no issue with at all.
Describing German inspired IG armies as 'Nazis in space' is rather misleading as only a minority of the German soldiers were paid up members of the party and the officer class was well known for its distain for the regime (The waffen SS units were distrusted by the Army high command) and hated the state interference in army affairs. Automatically calling members of the German army 'Nazi soldiers' is a bit like calling British soldiers Iraq 'Labour soldiers'.
One can pick holes in the Ideology of almost any historically inspired force. Ultimately it’s a pointless exercise.
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Post by: Bookwrack
Vargtass wrote:And to Che-Vito: So shaved head means Neo-Nazi?
I'll be generous and assume you skipped reading the rest of his post, since it was referencing being the skinhead who showed up with their IG painted up in Nazi regalia. Anyone who did that... yeah. When my first impression of a guy is that he's a skinhead with a hard-on for nazi symbolism, that's a pretty striking self-presentation, not not in a positive way.
Dave47 wrote:Ok, here's my take: If you like the color scheme, and think it would look good on your IG army, I would feel kind of silly getting annoyed at you. But if you chose the color scheme because it was really important to you to create an army of Space Nazis, I would think less of you, and would be somewhat offended. I have nothing against WW2 miniature games, but I think there's something questionable about intentionally dragging all of that specific baggage into my Sci-Fi Fantasy game.
Seriously, if you're that desperate for attention, spend less money on miniature games and more on getting your psychological dysfunctions straightened out.
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Post by: Grunt_For_Christ
Ultimately we all hate someone and we all have biases against someone, right? Why can't we just be honest about history? It's a game full of toy soldiers for crying out loud. We are allowed to hate Nazi's because they're white guys, but there's no way that we could ever charge an African man for being a racist even if he were to say that he hated me for the colour of my skin.
Go ahead, try and tell a black guy that he's a racist and see what happens. It's like you're pissing on a sacred relic: The 'freedom' they have that no one else has. It's completely backwards.
In the same way we can tell European (or the U.S.) governments that they've slaughtered millions in the war on terror but we can't call the Japanese or Chinese that for having slaughtered tens of millions in the past hundred years.
I say do it. Take a stand and do something in the interest of history... If you are a nazi that's fine (though I'm sure you're not). I'm sure damnation would be in your future but it would still be your choice. Who can throw stones? People who are members of the Weather Underground or the Black Panthers aren't racists, so what's in a name? Our politics and our visions of fairness are totally screwy. Who cares about what society will say. YOU know you're real intent and that's all that really matters. Everyone else is just whining about things they don't know anything about. The only people who can condemn you are those closest to you who know you best. So go for it. Paint a scheme that's interesting, that'll stimulate debate, that looks cool, and that'll set you apart from the rest.
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Post by: punkisntdeadyet
LuciusAR wrote:I think people need to differentiate between Nazi (member of the ruling political party in WW2) and Whermacht (member of the German armed forces). I agree that specifically doing armies based upon the Gestapo, concentration camp service or death squads is pushing boundaries of good taste. The Waffen SS is a bit of a grey area in so much that they were field units and weren't directly involved in Nazi Atrocities. But armies based on the Heer (Army) I've no issue with at all.
Agreed. I think this sums up the sentiment that a lot of people share. It's not so much that it's anti-German army, rather anti-Nazi. and like I mentioned earlier, painting your army like the SS or other Nazi Party members will probably send out the wrong message.
In all honesty anonymous strangers on the internet can only tell you so much. If YOU really want to do it, no one will stop you. But just be conscious that some people may take it the wrong way.
In response to the previous comments made by other people in this thread, just because people don't get flak for painting up communist armies or armies in the colours of other genocidal dictators, doesn't really give a good reason to put up an SS-themed or Nazi-poster-boy army. To paraphrase, "Oh if other people are doing something JUST as bad/wrong, I should do it too!".
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Post by: punkisntdeadyet
Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Ultimately we all hate someone and we all have biases against someone, right? Why can't we just be honest about history? It's a game full of toy soldiers for crying out loud. We are allowed to hate Nazi's because they're white guys, but there's no way that we could ever charge an African man for being a racist even if he were to say that he hated me for the colour of my skin.
Go ahead, try and tell a black guy that he's a racist and see what happens. It's like you're pissing on a sacred relic: The 'freedom' they have that no one else has. It's completely backwards.
In the same way we can tell European (or the U.S.) governments that they've slaughtered millions in the war on terror but we can't call the Japanese or Chinese that for having slaughtered tens of millions in the past hundred years.
I say do it. Take a stand and do something in the interest of history... If you are a nazi that's fine (though I'm sure you're not). I'm sure damnation would be in your future but it would still be your choice. Who can throw stones? People who are members of the Weather Underground or the Black Panthers aren't racists, so what's in a name? Our politics and our visions of fairness are totally screwy. Who cares about what society will say. YOU know you're real intent and that's all that really matters. Everyone else is just whining about things they don't know anything about. The only people who can condemn you are those closest to you who know you best. So go for it. Paint a scheme that's interesting, that'll stimulate debate, that looks cool, and that'll set you apart from the rest.
This is probably the most surreal post I've seen on dakka!
I'm not sure if this is an anti-white position that the members of dakka have taken. Clearly there are people opposed to any genocidal dictatorship themed armies.
Also I think your view of history seems to be a little skewed. While every major culture (not race) has participated in large scale warfare that has caused many deaths, I'm pretty sure many people are intelligent enough to be aware of this. Hopefully this doesn't go off topic, but the only reason why we discuss the "war on terror" (deliberate quotes), is that it's a contemporary issue, vs. something that happened "the past hundred years".
To say that the Jaric is making a grand political statement against reverse-racism by painting Nazi-themed toy soliders is a bit of a stretch. Also I'm sure Jaric does not want to ostracize himself from his local gaming community by bringing little Nazi's everywhere with him. And like the OP recognized, it doesn't help that he's white and has a shaved head [no offence! ]. While yes, he would be making a pretty bold statement, ocassionally there is a bit of self-censorship that we all need. I don't run around feeling the need to point out every injustice that has ever been perpetuated. Similarly, if Jaric ever comes across someone questioning his moral integrity by having toy-Nazi's in a sci-fi game, for him to go out and lecture them on their own integrity to justify his work, I think that would just be not-so-fun-times for everyone involved.
In the end it's a game yes, but I suppose there are some limits to what is acceptable.
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Post by: Disjointed Entity
Personally, I think a Werchmart themed force would look pretty good, but possibly the drab-grey would be a bit ... well ... dull.
Maybe the Flektarn (right spelling?) instead. Also, the swastika, if I'm not mistaken, didn't appear much on the standard German forces, it was mainly the cross.
I don't think the swastika is a great idea, but that's mainly because I don't like how it looks. If the OP wants to smash swastikas all over his guard, he should! It doesn't mean he's a Nazi. If I was to paint Red Stars all over my guard, it wouldn't mean I was a Soviet, surely?
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Post by: glowgos
IF you want to do a "nazi" themed guard army do a late war version of tired old men and brainwashed adolescents. But if i were you id take inspiration from the rich history and make your own interpretation.
Its not worth spending $$$ to piss of conservatives
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Post by: Lapsed Pacifist
It just goes to show you can never be to careful!
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Post by: Jaric
"I don't think the swastika is a great idea, but that's mainly because I don't like how it looks. If the OP wants to smash swastikas all over his guard, he should! It doesn't mean he's a Nazi. If I was to paint Red Stars all over my guard, it wouldn't mean I was a Soviet, surely?"
That should pretty much be the end of the debate if it was a rational world Disjointed. People tend to judge first, and think later.
No am I not a Nazis Apologist. and I am not painting this army as a stand against reverse discrimination. I think the army will look cool. Isint that why we all paint armies?
Yeah I like the idea of the main force being Wermacht, but I will have a least a unit or 2 of Waffen SS. You cant just pick and choose what you think were the good germans, and what were the bad that fought in ww2. Thats unfair and historically inaccurate.
I will totally start a modeling blog here on how it goes when I start. I assume not at least till May (new guard book duh). Plus my daughter is due end of May so that may you know slow the painting lol.
I dont think the people I play with will have any problem whatsoever, I was thinking about the tournies.
I live in Ottawa, and the next Gaming Summit ill bring this army. I am trying to register in their forum to repost my OP and see what the community says.
And I think the fact I have a shaved head and am white will lead people to think im a skinhead is total bs. Im well dressed, have a goatee, glasses, and no tattoos. I dont really fit the stereotype mold. Although people are stupid and will just assume anyways. Sigh.
Maybe ill make covert Nazis by building a Krieg army. Or Steel Legion lol.
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Post by: Disjointed Entity
Well, the Legion have always looked pretty cool!
What ever you end up doing, I'd like to see the results!
Plus, why does having a shaved head make you a White Supremacist? One of my really good mates (and drum teacher) used to shave his head, and still kind of does (mohecain) I just think it looks damn cool!
People who just assume like this are complete morons for judging before knowing!
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Post by: glowgos
When people mean shin head they also mean the build and how they hold themselves not just a shaven head
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Post by: Ulf
Why even bring it up, if you're not planning on using readily-identifiable Nazi icons & symbols?
Just paint the commissars black, the troopers in Feldgrau or whatever unit colors you're planning on using, and be done with it. No one would ever know or take offense. What's the point in pointing out your inspiration and asking about it, really?
Honestly, to me this seems more like an attempt to show how edgy and different your approach to minis is, rather than a serious question. Apologies if that's wrong, but that's how it's coming across, OP.
And this little gem: "The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did" is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen in a forum. And that's saying something. One of these groups was real, and responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of people. The other is fictitious, and therefore it doesn't matter what they're portrayed as having done. Because they don't exist.
That's like saying "You know what, that Jeffrey Dahmer's not such a bad guy, because hey, you know, at least he didn't kill as many people as died when the Death Star blew up."
I know that's an exaggeration, but you get my point. Just paint the damn minis however you want, but if you're not planning on using swastikas and SS lightning bolts, then why even bring it up? You know it's just gonna stir people up, and why intentionally do that?
As a side note, I did know a guy a bunch of years ago who used german WW2 themes in an old 2nd edition Mordian Iron Guard army. He basically never got another game in at our LGS. Not 40K, not fantasy battle, not MTG, not anything. Not a lot of people want to play someone who treats serious and tragic historical events like a joke. He even had a hard time coming into the shop from then on, because quite a few customers were jewish, and they in particular didn't think it was funny or pithy or cool.
The whole concept is just tasteless and insulting to people who have a real-life connection to those events. Like it seems harmless to you, or whatever, but these are real events that have left a real mark on many people's lives. And its one thing to play a WW2 minis games, where the real events are the focus and setting, but to do that in a clearly fantastical game like 40K? It comes across like you think the imagery you're using is cool, and that you consider it worthy of emulation. Even if you don't, you can't guarantee that people won't see it that way, so why do it?
Like making a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets, or a 9/11-themed army that's all Stormboyz wearing turbans, Blood Axes wearing dynamite vests, and ork shoe-bombers, a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it.
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Post by: Frazzled
LuciusAR wrote:I think people need to differentiate between Nazi (member of the ruling political party in WW2) and Whermacht (member of the German armed forces). I agree that specifically doing armies based upon the Gestapo, concentration camp service or death squads is pushing boundaries of good taste. The Waffen SS is a bit of a grey area in so much that they were field units and weren't directly involved in Nazi Atrocities. But armies based on the Heer (Army) I've no issue with at all.
They're all Nazis to the business end of an M1 Garand. Dead Nazis.
Why even bring it up, if you're not planning on using readily-identifiable Nazi icons & symbols?
Just paint the commissars black, the troopers in Feldgrau or whatever unit colors you're planning on using, and be done with it. No one would ever know or take offense. What's the point in pointing out your inspiration and asking about it, really?
Honestly, to me this seems more like an attempt to show how edgy and different your approach to minis is, rather than a serious question. Apologies if that's wrong, but that's how it's coming across, OP.
And this little gem: "The Imperium is way worse than anything the Nazis did" is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen in a forum. And that's saying something. One of these groups was real, and responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of people. The other is fictitious, and therefore it doesn't matter what they're portrayed as having done. Because they don't exist.
That's like saying "You know what, that Jeffrey Dahmer's not such a bad guy, because hey, you know, at least he didn't kill as many people as died when the Death Star blew up."
I know that's an exaggeration, but you get my point. Just paint the damn minis however you want, but if you're not planning on using swastikas and SS lightning bolts, then why even bring it up? You know it's just gonna stir people up, and why intentionally do that?
As a side note, I did know a guy a bunch of years ago who used german WW2 themes in an old 2nd edition Mordian Iron Guard army. He basically never got another game in at our LGS. Not 40K, not fantasy battle, not MTG, not anything. Not a lot of people want to play someone who treats serious and tragic historical events like a joke. He even had a hard time coming into the shop from then on, because quite a few customers were jewish, and they in particular didn't think it was funny or pithy or cool.
The whole concept is just tasteless and insulting to people who have a real-life connection to those events. Like it seems harmless to you, or whatever, but these are real events that have left a real mark on many people's lives. And its one thing to play a WW2 minis games, where the real events are the focus and setting, but to do that in a clearly fantastical game like 40K? It comes across like you think the imagery you're using is cool, and that you consider it worthy of emulation. Even if you don't, you can't guarantee that people won't see it that way, so why do it?
Like making a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets, or a 9/11-themed army that's all Stormboyz wearing turbans, Blood Axes wearing dynamite vests, and ork shoe-bombers, a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it.
What this guy said.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Go ahead, try and tell a black guy that he's a racist and see what happens. It's like you're pissing on a sacred relic: The 'freedom' they have that no one else has. It's completely backwards.
I've done it, some look shocked, some agree whole heartedly that they ARE racist, but are ok with it because they feel they have that right because of history. Also, it's not some freedom only Blacks think they have, other minorities(such as Gypsies and Hispanics) believe they have that freedom, too(and anyone that argues against that is wrong and a racist to them). I've seen real-life Minority-Offs, it's ridiculous. Reverse Racism is STILL racism.
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Post by: glowgos
a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it.
So on first impression you would potentially assault someone wow internet tough guys
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Post by: Frazzled
No. But I would just stand there, point at them and laugh.
And laugh
And laugh
Then I would have them thrown out.
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Post by: Jaric
Ulf and by Frazzled you are both being PC up to the point of being fascist. You are saying that since someone might interpret what I am doing as insulting, dont do it. Your like do it and hide it, or dont do it. At the very least its hypocritical.
And this I find laughable, "The whole concept is just tasteless and insulting to people who have a real-life connection to those events." So if I model a Guard army on an army that committed countless atrocities, murders, etc, and no one is alive who has a connection, its okay?
Im Canadian. I have no connection to your US atrocities on the Natives. Am I allowed to make a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets without getting hassled? Which by the way is a cool idea and will remember it next time I make a fantasy army.
And your little story about not playing with that guy sounds very very prejudicial at least, and douche-like at worst. Did you even ask him why he did it? Was it historically accurate? There were Jewish people in the store so never mention the N word? Pretending something didnt happen is how these things happen in the first place. Those who forget history are bound to repeat it.
Well Ulf and Frazzled this must all be moot for you since your both American. Dont you prize Freedom of Speech as one of the most sacred of civil liberties?
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Post by: Ulf
No, not at all. I literally mean talk to them. About how it's borderline appropriate at best to bring something like that into a store where kids spend time, and where others go to have fun and spend time with friends. The same way I would ask someone who was wearing a T-shirt that said something like "Kill all Jews" or "Hitler was Right" to either change their shirt or get the F out.
Gaming, especially in a communal area like a gaming store that's open to the public, is a group activity that carries an implied responsibility to the other participants. We should all do our best to respect that. Which includes not doing something as deliberately offensive as going through all the trouble to paint tiny swastikas on our miniatures. Seriously.
Sorry if I phrased that "step outside" comment poorly. I'm not advocating violence at all. I used to manage a fairly large gaming store, and I had to ask people to step outside for a word on a pretty regular basis, so that's what I was thinking of when I was typing, kind of without thinking about the other connotation. My bad.
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Post by: Jaric
"a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it."
This is one of the dumbest things Ive heard on this thread. Now whos being the fascist?
Or get them thrown out of the store Frazzled? Who made you the PC god? Hello you live in the US for gods sake.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Jaric wrote:Well Ulf and Frazzled this must all be moot for you since your both American. Dont you prize Freedom of Speech as one of the most sacred of civil liberties?
Frazz is from Texas, where the Second Amendment is more important than any other and is, in fact, mandatory, not optional. You get your choice of free gun as soon as you move into the state(first one's free!).
Also, gods forbid you step anywhere near Frazz's lawn...
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Post by: Jaric
Okay I just dont get this:
"No, not at all. I literally mean talk to them. About how it's borderline appropriate at best to bring something like that into a store where kids spend time, and where others go to have fun and spend time with friends. The same way I would ask someone who was wearing a T-shirt that said something like "Kill all Jews" or "Hitler was Right" to either change their shirt or get the F out."
So now your saying a Cadian army painted in ww2 german colours is the same as a shirt that says "Kill all Jews," and "Hitler was right?" What?!!!!!
And whats wrong with kids seeing a German army. No one is saying you praise it or support it. Kids should learn History, not be hidden from it. Explain it to them dont shield them.
I shudder to think what you do to people who play Flames of War in your store and there are kids around...
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Post by: Frazzled
Jaric wrote:Ulf and by Frazzled you are both being PC up to the point of being fascist. You are saying that since someone might interpret what I am doing as insulting, dont do it. Your like do it and hide it, or dont do it. At the very least its hypocritical.
Its called good taste and common decency. I know Canadians in general have that. Are you the exception or just lack capacity to act and think like an adult?
Call me a fascist. Malf...sic em!
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Post by: Frazzled
Platuan4th wrote:Jaric wrote:Well Ulf and Frazzled this must all be moot for you since your both American. Dont you prize Freedom of Speech as one of the most sacred of civil liberties?
Frazz is from Texas, where the Second Amendment is more important than any other and is, in fact, mandatory, not optional. You get your choice of free gun as soon as you move into the state(first one's free!).
Also, gods forbid you step anywhere near Frazz's lawn...
That is indeed quite certain
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Post by: Jaric
No your saying curb my way of painting to fit under what you deem to be appropriate.
Common decency? Im not making Ovens or Death squads...
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Post by: Xanthos
I believe this is the first time I´ve said either of these two things, but this feels about right...
Firstly: Can we please lock this already? The proper discussion is far gone. Also, I believe I haven´t seen any modeling and painting pictures.....
Secondly: In Before The Lock.
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Post by: Harkainos
Obviously he was speaking about IRL, and not forums.
I, personally, wouldn't 'test the waters' with such an emotional topic - even if it means nothing to you.
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Post by: ph34r
Jaric wrote:No your saying curb my way of painting to fit under what you deem to be appropriate.
Common decency? Im not making Ovens or Death squads...
You started this thread saying that you wanted to make a nazi IG army. Many people have said that you should not. You seem to have just been looking for support, because despite the number of people that are clearly against it, you still think that it would be fine to make this army and you would not run into problems with anyone.
The fact is, nazis do not belong in 40k. The fact that the 40k universe is so harsh is not an excuse because the 40k universe is not real. Many people would be offended by an army if you tried to make an accurate representation of a nazi army, complete with swastikas and ss squads, and with good reason.
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Post by: cadbren
glowgos wrote:IF you want to do a "nazi" themed guard army do a late war version of tired old men and brainwashed adolescents.
In other words the Imperial Guard.
ph34r, there does not seem to be any kind of agreement on this issue.
Jaric, the best thing to point out is that if your friends don't care what you paint your guys as then do whatever. If you are playing publically then you will be at the mercy of the event organisers and they're unlikely to allow obviously painted nazi imagery on their tables.
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Post by: Jaric
Look I started this thread not to garnish support for my idea, but to see what the waters were like. So far I see people on both sides of the issue.
I would have hoped that if I brought this army to an adult setting, and people had an issue with it, they would ask me at least some questions about it rather than just arbitrarily make snap assumptions about me and the army.
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Post by: Ulf
Jaric wrote:Ulf and by Frazzled you are both being PC up to the point of being fascist. You are saying that since someone might interpret what I am doing as insulting, dont do it. Your like do it and hide it, or dont do it. At the very least its hypocritical.
And this I find laughable, "The whole concept is just tasteless and insulting to people who have a real-life connection to those events." So if I model a Guard army on an army that committed countless atrocities, murders, etc, and no one is alive who has a connection, its okay?
Im Canadian. I have no connection to your US atrocities on the Natives. Am I allowed to make a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets without getting hassled? Which by the way is a cool idea and will remember it next time I make a fantasy army.
And your little story about not playing with that guy sounds very very prejudicial at least, and douche-like at worst. Did you even ask him why he did it? Was it historically accurate? There were Jewish people in the store so never mention the N word? Pretending something didnt happen is how these things happen in the first place. Those who forget history are bound to repeat it.
Well Ulf and Frazzled this must all be moot for you since your both American. Dont you prize Freedom of Speech as one of the most sacred of civil liberties?
Jaric, my point was just that if you're not planning on making it overtly and proudly Nazi, then why bring it up? It doesn't sound like you're pro-Nazi at all, so why not just paint the models any way you like, and be done with it? I'm not saying don't do it. Just that it's tasteless.
I mean, go as crazy with this as you feel you need to. Wear an army-surplus SS uniform to the next Games Day if you like. Whatever. I can't stop you, nor do I have any interest in telling you what to do. Live your life the way you see fit to. My two cents were just that it's a tasteless thing to do, and that your logic of "if a fictional evil is worse than a real evil, that makes it more palatable", sounds like nonsense to me. Thats' it.
Connection to historical events or no connection, you're missing the point i was trying to make, or maybe I was making it poorly. So let me clarify; I think that basing a fantastical army's theme on something horrible that involved hundreds of thousands of deaths is pretty tasteless. It could very well offend people, and why do that on purpose? Isn't there enough in the history of the 40K universe that can be used as the basis for an army?
To address your point about the guy from my old gaming group: he was a total jerk about this army. It had dead models wearing yarmulkes crushed under the treads of tanks, ovens used as bases for the heavy weapons, etc.... It was really pretty awful. We did ask him about it, and his point was that hey, it was a clever theme, and who cared about it, since it happened so long ago? So yeah, speaking as the one who knew this dude and saw this army, I feel pretty good about how people reacted. They just refused to give this guy the time of day and include him in any gaming that was going on.
I don't know how you connect what i'm saying to denying history, by the way. The implication is what; that making a Nazi-themed army is in some way helping keep WW2 alive in the public memory so that it never happens again? Well, I don't think it's in any danger of being forgotten, with or without some gamer's SS IG army.
I also never advocated not mentioning one word or another. Just that it was a serious event, with serious consequences, and that it's tasteless to compare it to a ficitional group of characters on the basis of a moral value judgement.
The last thing I'm gonna say is this: Jaric, I have no problem with your army. I personally like the color-schemes of many WW2 armies, on a purely aesthetic level. My question was always this: If you're not touting Nazism or planning on incorporating controversial iconogrpahy into your paint scheme, why even bring it up? I don't get the impression that you're a racist, nor that you condone anti-semitism in any way. So why not just paint the army, do a kick-ass job of it, post the pictures here and be done with it? I for one would never have even made the connection between an IG army with grey trooper and black commissar uniforms and the Third Reich. But since you pointed it out and then expressly asked for feedback, I was trying to oblige you.
Don't get so riled up. Calling me a fascist, or implying that I am one, is way out of line. I did not call you a racist, or even imply that. My criticisms are directed at the logic of your argument, not at you. I get to choose with whom I play games, and if I choose not to play against someone who's doing something I find offensive, how is that fascist? Am I somehow obligated to play them? Am I denying them some right, or dictating to them how to live their life? No, I am not. I am simply offering my opinions on a question that you, Jaric, asked in your original post. I used a hypothetical situation to illustrate my point.
Plus, what does living in the US have to do with anything? That one point I don't understand at all. Neither Frazzled nor I are saying one single thing about people not being allowed to express themselves. I for one, and to me it seems like Frazzled as well, an saying that if people want to do something offensive, then go nuts. But expect there to be reactions that don't favor that point of view.
Bottom line is that this is all opinion, anyhow. Take it into account, or don't. But you asked for people's opinions on a public forum, so don't get personal about it when people respond and offer the opinions you asked for.
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Post by: TheSecretSquig
Just to chuck in my 2 pence worth. I would have no issue whatsoever, in fact if it was anicely painted and themed amy, I'm more likely to applaud you. Nazi's Germany, WWII, its an historical event, get over it. You've all played COD games and that doesn't bother you knowing how much time and effort some games designers put into bringing back to life the Nazi amy, you've all watched WWII films and never had outcrys about 'how dare you recreate Nazi's'.
How many of you are offended by the new look Ultramarines. With thier colours, red leather tabbards, helmet plumes, they are very much based on the Romans, who slaughtered thousands in their quest for world domination, or witchhunters who burned alive 100's of innocents. Its an historical event! All you Space Marine Players, Trash your armies as the whole background of the 18 Legions is based upon the 18 Roman Legions etc etc, and they killed Jesus for Christs Sake, Heathens the Romans were, so all trash your Space marines in disgust! Black Templars or Crusaders who killed 1000's in the great crusades. Historical Events people. Recreating them doesn't make you an evil nasty person.
My Talleban Troops look like Afghan Terrorists with Turbans, I should bin them all, have the whole army melted down!
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Post by: Jaric
My apologies Ulf. I didnt mean for this to get personal. I just didnt like how you ostracized that guy, but now since you have explained it in more detail I understand your reaction better.
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Post by: Jaric
TheSecretSquig wrote:Just to chuck in my 2 pence worth. I would have no issue whatsoever, in fact if it was anicely painted and themed amy, I'm more likely to applaud you. Nazi's Germany, WWII, its an historical event, get over it. You've all played COD games and that doesn't bother you knowing how much time and effort some games designers put into bringing back to life the Nazi amy, you've all watched WWII films and never had outcrys about 'how dare you recreate Nazi's'.
How many of you are offended by the new look Ultramarines. With thier colours, red leather tabbards, helmet plumes, they are very much based on the Romans, who slaughtered thousands in their quest for world domination, or witchhunters who burned alive 100's of innocents. Its an historical event! All you Space Marine Players, Trash your armies as the whole background of the 18 Legions is based upon the 18 Roman Legions etc etc, and they killed Jesus for Christs Sake, Heathens the Romans were, so all trash your Space marines in disgust! Black Templars or Crusaders who killed 1000's in the great crusades. Historical Events people. Recreating them doesn't make you an evil nasty person.
My Talleban Troops look like Afghan Terrorists with Turbans, I should bin them all, have the whole army melted down!
Wait you have an army called the "Talleban?" Thats awesome lol. Are they killing Commies, or NATO?
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Post by: Ulf
Wow, sorry I responded to this thread. I was writing my last post when Jaric was writing about my supposed behavior when people play FOW. That is going too far, Jaric. You don't know me, or anything about me. If you ask for opinions, expect to get them. I at no time attakced you or implied anything negative about you. I thought I'd get the same courtesy in return. I was clearly wrong.
I thought I could present my point of view, in response to the OP's solicitation for opinions, without being called a fascist and without the implication that I'm some kind of violent person.
I'm done.
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Post by: TheSecretSquig
My Tallarn Army his actually called the Tal Hi'Barn Terror Troops. I have researched and put genuine replica's of Talleban Flags on some of the models. At a tournament we had a great few shots of it as my opponent had a Space Marine Army painted in the Stars & Stripes of the US. It looked awesome as 2 opposing armies go.
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Post by: cadbren
Ulf wrote:
As a side note, I did know a guy a bunch of years ago who used german WW2 themes in an old 2nd edition Mordian Iron Guard army. He basically never got another game in at our LGS. Not 40K, not fantasy battle, not MTG, not anything. Not a lot of people want to play someone who treats serious and tragic historical events like a joke. He even had a hard time coming into the shop from then on, because quite a few customers were jewish, and they in particular didn't think it was funny or pithy or cool.
It was unfortunate for your mate then that he had to deal with such an uptight group of people, I know jews who don't take offence at such things because they're rational people and not frothing at the mouth fanatics.
...Like making a Nurgle army that's all diseased-looking native americans hugging US cavalry blankets, or a 9/11-themed army that's all Stormboyz wearing turbans, Blood Axes wearing dynamite vests, and ork shoe-bombers, a Nazi-themed IG army would make me, for one, refuse to play that person and possibly ask them to step outside the game store and discuss it.
I'd be more concerned at the quality of the conversions and the overall theme and if I was truly offended I'd make it my mission to defeat that army every time I saw it. Afterall, 40K tabletop is about the game and not about personal politics.
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Post by: Jaric
TheSecretSquig wrote:My Tallarn Army his actually called the Tal Hi'Barn Terror Troops. I have researched and put genuine replica's of Talleban Flags on some of the models. At a tournament we had a great few shots of it as my opponent had a Space Marine Army painted in the Stars & Stripes of the US. It looked awesome as 2 opposing armies go.
Lol I just dont understand this. You had a Talleban army, flags included, in a tournie and no one cared? Why the hell am I worried about then?
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Post by: Jaric
Oh and Ulf:
Less QQ more Pew Pew.
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Post by: TheSecretSquig
Here I have my Rough Riders (Tal Hi'Barn Shock Troops) carrying actual Talleban army flags. My trooper's armed with demo charges actually have a C4 harness modelled onto them (guy in the middle). I used this in several tournaments at GW HQ in Notts, and its won a best painted / themed army award at the same event. I've never had any issues with any opponents, including the Die Hard USA guy with his painted Stars & Stripes army, when we played, we had a great laugh about each others armies.
If I came accross a themed IG Nazi army, I'd only get upset if it wasn't historically correct.
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Post by: Jaric
You sir have just renewed my faith in the common man not being a PC tard.
Thank you.
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Post by: JD21290
Lol I just dont understand this. You had a Talleban army, flags included, in a tournie and no one cared? Why the hell am I worried about then?
simple.
they were all adult enough to know that a model is just a model.
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Post by: glowgos
But you are from the U.K. id say as a whole we are more liberal than flags and freedom USA stiff upper lip and all that.
my 2P is that the OP is clearly a troll and should do a army a bit more current if he wants a original discution.
Im thinking a IDF force with armoured bulldozers as chimeras, oh yeah those guys arn't accurate so should suit guard.
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Post by: TheSecretSquig
My army was taken away by a GW Photographer to be photo'ed up and featured on their web site. I stopped him because I had the sense to know it wasn't 100% PC for a large organisation like GW to show Tallebarn Flags on their web site. They aggreed, and pic's were never taken. No-one had an issue, certainly not the 100 competitors who voted it the best painted themed army. I have no idea whatsoever what the arabic writing on the flags mean, nor do I care. Its a well themed, historically correct army.
If someone takes offense to it, its their petty problem to get over. Whatever country, background, religion you are, somewhere in history, you did something bad.
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Post by: Platuan4th
glowgos wrote:But you are from the U.K. id say as a whole we are more liberal than flags and freedom USA stiff upper lip and all that.
I think that's irrelevant, actually. The GW manager that told me that GW does not allow people to play historically accurate armies(their words, NOT MINE, and he said ANY army, not just WW2 Germans) in their stores was managing a U.K. GW store for a British Company that doesn't allow it within their stores. From what he told me, it sounds like GW doesn't allow it for the same reason of it may offend people and then they will blame the company for allowing offensive material in their store(the same reason they will kick you out for cursing).
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Post by: ph34r
cadbren wrote:Ulf wrote:
As a side note, I did know a guy a bunch of years ago who used german WW2 themes in an old 2nd edition Mordian Iron Guard army. He basically never got another game in at our LGS. Not 40K, not fantasy battle, not MTG, not anything. Not a lot of people want to play someone who treats serious and tragic historical events like a joke. He even had a hard time coming into the shop from then on, because quite a few customers were jewish, and they in particular didn't think it was funny or pithy or cool.
It was unfortunate for your mate then that he had to deal with such an uptight group of people, I know jews who don't take offence at such things because they're rational people and not frothing at the mouth fanatics.
Suggesting that people that disagree with you are "frothing at the mouth fanatics" is a great way for me to stop caring about your opinion.
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Post by: dementedwombat
I thinlk this entire thing is getting blown out of proportion. While I agree with many points (and disagree with quite a few as well), they have nothing to do with the original issue. That being, should the OP paint a IG army in a Nazi (WWII German) Color Scheme. As uniforms go, you could do much worse than Nazis. I have the feeling that, if painted in historically accurate WWII German battle dress, the vast majority of people wouldn't even notice a Nazi influence.
The problem arises when overt Nazi iconography is used. I agree that, at least in the interest of personal safety while playing at clubs, the swastika/ss symbols should be avoided. That being said, however, there are many other symbols that suggest "WWII German army" without screaming "Nazi." Therein arises the question of is it possible to seperate "German Army" from "Nazi." I would say that it is. The image of polished German organization is easily identifiable and seperate from the image of "evil Nazi lunatic".
Paint lots of stark, imperialistic symbols on your guard. Mechanize them. Have waves of grim grey clad troopers piling out of Chimeras to strike where the enemy is weakest. Create Commissars and Generals in black and red trench coats to watch over it all and enforce discipline where it is lacking. Achieve that without using Nazi symbols, and you will achieve success.
Winding down after that last paragraph, I'm all for a mechanized Blitzkrieg IG. That's what they're good at. Use the German color scheme, if that's what looks good (or terrifying, as the case may be). They don't have to be Nazi, they just have to be German. That's the image you want.
EDIT: space marines in stars and stripes, that's awesome. I've got to find a picture of that.
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Post by: ph34r
TheSecretSquig wrote:If someone takes offense to it, its their petty problem to get over. Whatever country, background, religion you are, somewhere in history, you did something bad.
That doesn't mean that you should make an army based on the bad things that your country did and drag it into Warhammer 40k. Jaric wrote:You sir have just renewed my faith in the common man not being a PC tard.
And... more insults against people who do not agree with you. Great. Way to support your point of view.
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Post by: JD21290
i just find it highly amusing that people take offence to models.
you know the 40k addiction has taken over when you start to merge 40k with reality.
does this now mean if someone doesent like ravenwing they are now a racist since the models have black armour?
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Post by: ph34r
JD21290 wrote:i just find it highly amusing that people take offence to models.
you know the 40k addiction has taken over when you start to merge 40k with reality.
does this now mean if someone doesent like ravenwing they are now a racist since the models have black armour?
How can armor color = skin color = racism? There is an entire chapter of black space marines and that is not racist, there is no way that a black armored chapter is racist.
What it does mean is that, if you model your IG army with white land ownders as commissars and black slaves as penal troops, someone will be offended. And why shouldn't they?
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Post by: glowgos
I think that's irrelevant, actually. The GW manager that told me that GW does not allow people to play historically accurate armies(their words, NOT MINE, and he said ANY army, not just WW2 Germans) in their stores was managing a U.K. GW store for a British Company that doesn't allow it within their stores. From what he told me, it sounds like GW doesn't allow it for the same reason of it may offend people and then they will blame the company for allowing offensive material in their store(the same reason they will kick you out for cursing)./ Who exactly is the GW manager? junior or senior, he just sounds like hes bigging up the company's"responsibility and ethics" i wouldn't be surprised if he told you next they would use "green" materials. I have also seen seen histroicaly accurate armies (what ever the hell that is ) being played in stores and tournaments the celts , japanese samurai and yes germans spring to mind. P.S. I think geographic location has a big effect on the culture and therefore possibility to offence, for example if i took a "nazi" army to israle id have a totaly diffrent reaction than if i had taken them to Uganda. I find the idea of basing your guys on a grinding industrial killing machine adhorent .
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Post by: TheSecretSquig
Platuan4th wrote:glowgos wrote:But you are from the U.K. id say as a whole we are more liberal than flags and freedom USA stiff upper lip and all that.
I think that's irrelevant, actually. The GW manager that told me that GW does not allow people to play historically accurate armies(their words, NOT MINE, and he said ANY army, not just WW2 Germans) in their stores was managing a U.K. GW store for a British Company that doesn't allow it within their stores. From what he told me, it sounds like GW doesn't allow it for the same reason of it may offend people and then they will blame the company for allowing offensive material in their store(the same reason they will kick you out for cursing).
I've used this several times in GW HQ, used in local GW stores and no-one has ever had a problem. Talleban have horses, I have cold ones, I have sucide bombers with modelled explosive harness for demo charges. I swapped all my Tallarn Missile Launchers for the Steel Legion ones, as they look more like the Soviet era Rockits the Talleban would use, Feth, I even called the army Tal Hi'Barn. Read the Cities of Death book and in the back you'll find GW's version of Stallengrad, and they even admit this in the book. Now if I was to add Dead Cadian's to bases and tanks and things, painted up to represent any of the allied forces, then that would be out of order, distasteful, and deservedly wrong. But there is a limit, a line you don't cross and that would be it.
If I had the money, I'd love to do a DKK army painted and themed as a WWII German army, as with those models, if done correctly would look awesome. Thats not to say I support Mr Hitlers views, or I show no respect to any of the ethnic minorities he persecuted, but that I kow my HISTORY and I'd make it as historically correct. I personally, would not put Swazikas on it, but instead of the black symbol, I'd use an Imperial Eagle. The Talleban flags above suit my IG army, as its modelled off a rebelious group of dessert nomads, not an Emporer loving IG army.
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Post by: dementedwombat
glowgos wrote:I find the idea of basing your guys on a grinding industrial killing machine adhorent .
I don't think it's so much the army wants to be Nazi. It's just that a soulless grinding machine is exactly what the Guard is. The Nazis are the best example of that we can relate to in our real life. It's only natural to model something based off real world influences.
I am in no way supporting an army with Nazi symbols. I'm just saying that there's other reasons to do it than believing the Nazis were right. I would have no issue with an authentic Nazi army, but most people would. Therefore I propose the compromise I discussed previous.
I love arguing with no one. Nobody cares about this point I'm making right now. I'll stop posting now.
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Post by: JD21290
How can armor color = skin color = racism? There is an entire chapter of black space marines and that is not racist, there is no way that a black armored chapter is racist.
What it does mean is that, if you model your IG army with white land ownders as commissars and black slaves as penal troops, someone will be offended. And why shouldn't they?
from the looks of how far this has been taken so far i wouldnt put it past a few people.
(this is starting to remind me of the RE5 argument)
not only would that be a stupid idea, but i think most people have enough sense to realise thats not a good idea.
allthough, what do the dark eldar take?
slaves are known in 40k and WHFB, read fluff and you will see plenty.
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Post by: glowgos
The imperial guard always struck me as more WW1 than WW2 but i can relate to the familiar themes especially with the space marines
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Post by: Anti-Mag
Bored now. Perhaps the OP should have set this up as a poll thread, and spared us from the PC nonsense that's accumulating here.
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Post by: ph34r
JD21290 wrote:slaves are known in 40k and WHFB, read fluff and you will see plenty.
Yes, slaves are a part of the 40k universe. Brutal dictatorships, witch hunts, and wiping out millions are part of the 40k universe. Does that mean that you should make an army that brings real world history that was tragic for a huge number of people, and still remains a very touchy subject today, and make a 40k army based on it with the excuse that something similar to it exists in a similar fashion in 40k? No.
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Post by: dementedwombat
glowgos wrote:The imperial guard always struck me as more WW1 than WW2 but i can relate to the familiar themes especially with the space marines
Thank you. When dealing with things beyond our understanding (system wide warfare where a million people could be killed in a second, 8ft tall genetically modified killing machines, dark gods etc.) it is necessary to "back it down" so we can grasp the scale.
The WWII German army is simply the best reference point we have for system wide grinding warfare. Let's hope we never get a better one.
I'm done for real this time. I think we should just let this thread die. Every point that can be made probably has been at least once.
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Post by: JD21290
its made a very touchy subject by people who keep dragging it into light every 5 minutes.
i think everyone should stop with this PC bs for a while and think about what they are actually saying here.
its a game involving small models, in a galaxy where nearly everything we have in our history has been done, but on a much larger scale.
its people who are TOO PC that cause more problems for everyone.
im out of this one now before i say something i do regret, but overall im just pissed off with how far people do take things, rather than thinking before they say something they instead preach PC crap to everyone, which ok, in this day and age its expected to be PC, but not to the degree where you start disputes about the smallest of things.
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Post by: ph34r
JD21290 wrote:its made a very touchy subject by people who keep dragging it into light every 5 minutes.
i think everyone should stop with this PC bs for a while and think about what they are actually saying here.
its a game involving small models, in a galaxy where nearly everything we have in our history has been done, but on a much larger scale.
its people who are TOO PC that cause more problems for everyone.
im out of this one now before i say something i do regret, but overall im just pissed off with how far people do take things, rather than thinking before they say something they instead preach PC crap to everyone, which ok, in this day and age its expected to be PC, but not to the degree where you start disputes about the smallest of things.
Compared to most people I know I am very un- PC. I don't start arguments about racism, I don't "drag it into the light every 5 minutes". Making an army of slaves and slave owners, which you seem to be defending by saying that I am being overly PC, is just ridiculous. You are just being completely unreasonable if you think that a person who thinks an obviously racist and offensive army is being "TOO PC", "dragging it into light every 5 minutes", or is talking " PC bs".
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
I get the feeling some people are thinking this will turn out to be a holocaust themed army, as opposed to one based off of the German military.
It's not in any way equivalent to basing an army off of, say, 9/11, or slavery, or Stalin's Ukrainian famine. Those are events, not armies.
It's a military force based off of a military force, and I fail to see what would make it worse than a Valhallan or Praetorian army (assuming the army still retains roots in the 40k universe).
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Post by: mattyboy22
ph34r wrote:JD21290 wrote:i just find it highly amusing that people take offence to models.
you know the 40k addiction has taken over when you start to merge 40k with reality.
does this now mean if someone doesent like ravenwing they are now a racist since the models have black armour?
How can armor color = skin color = racism? There is an entire chapter of black space marines and that is not racist, there is no way that a black armored chapter is racist.
What it does mean is that, if you model your IG army with white land ownders as commissars and black slaves as penal troops, someone will be offended. And why shouldn't they?
Not racist? Purge the alien anyone?....
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Post by: ghostmaker
K Paint how ever you want really you could even do different colors like a friend said to me you could do pee dot just maybe different colors like on a ash waste world so red and blue or black and red an so on.
people should not have a problem as long as you dont add a Nazi over tone like the swastika and such. like I said use common sense no one should have a problem with a German color scheme.
The only problem is that SS colors are the different but yet very different and most people can spot them. but regular army unit is very boring.
like I said early use maybe a Fallschirmjäger color scheme that would be different.
just my 2 cents
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Post by: ph34r
Orkeosaurus wrote:I get the feeling some people are thinking this will turn out to be a holocaust themed army, as opposed to one based off of the German military.
It's not in any way equivalent to basing an army off of, say, 9/11, or slavery, or Stalin's Ukrainian famine. Those are events, not armies.
It's a military force based off of a military force, and I fail to see what would make it worse than a Valhallan or Praetorian army (assuming the army still retains roots in the 40k universe).
I know that the proposed army would not be anything like one poster described with ovens on HW team bases, etc. A color scheme is just a color scheme, a style is just a style, but when you bring things like red arm bands and swastikas into your army it's not just an idea or a theme, it's you actually making a nazi army in 40k with that explicit purpose.
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Post by: TheSecretSquig
I think you have to have a mix and a blend of history, and fictional correctness.
E.g. If you painted an Historically correct IG army as a WWII German army complete with Swaztikas, then that would be wrong as it does not fit into the 40k universe. Swap the plack Swaztika for an Imperial Eagle, and it does fit.
My Ta Hi'Barn troops sporting bomd harness's and Talleban flags works fine. If I then painted dead US or UK troops on the bases or modelled trophies like a Cadian helment with a US / UK Flag on it, wrong.
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Post by: ph34r
mattyboy22 wrote:Not racist? Purge the alien anyone?....
Aliens are not real, there is no alien that would take offense to that. That is something that only exists in 40k and has no hold in history.
If the SM battle cry was "Purge the jews and gypsies", that would be racist.
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Post by: ph34r
TheSecretSquig wrote:I think you have to have a mix and a blend of history, and fictional correctness.
E.g. If you painted an Historically correct IG army as a WWII German army complete with Swaztikas, then that would be wrong as it does not fit into the 40k universe. Swap the plack Swaztika for an Imperial Eagle, and it does fit.
I agree with this. If you like the style of a historical army, and make a 40k army similar to that, fine. If you make an army that is obviously just that historical army, not fine.
I would go further than just swapping Swaztikas and remove arm bands as they have no precedence in 40k and can't be justified that way, but you could probably get away with just swapping swastikas.
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Post by: Platuan4th
ph34r wrote:mattyboy22 wrote:Not racist? Purge the alien anyone?....
Aliens are not real, there is no alien that would take offense to that.
Aliens are real, as Alien technically means foreigner, outsider, someone from another family, and non-native plant(semantics are win!).
I do get what you're saying, though, even if you meant it in the Extra-terrestrial definition, which is only 1/5 the definition of the word Alien.
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Post by: JD21290
i couldnt resist here.
want proof aliens are real? track down robbie williams, he is currently chasing the little green men
most un- PC army: witch hunters.
afterall, they hunt witches.
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Post by: ph34r
Platuan4th wrote:I do get what you're saying, though, even if you meant it in the Extra-terrestrial definition, which is only 1/5 the definition of the word Alien.
I know what alien actually means, but it is pretty damn obvious that in 40k they mean space aliens. Things that are not human.
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Post by: Platuan4th
ph34r wrote:Platuan4th wrote:I do get what you're saying, though, even if you meant it in the Extra-terrestrial definition, which is only 1/5 the definition of the word Alien.
I know what alien actually means, but it is pretty damn obvious that in 40k they mean space aliens. Things that are not human.
Relax, ph34r, it was a joke.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
I agree on not using swastikas, it would dilute it's existence as a 40k army.
Not a matter of "the army you're bringing into 40k was ran by Nazis" as much as it is "you're bringing a real-life army into 40k".
No fun trying to a play a game in the grim darkness of the far future if people keep bringing armies from the grim darkness of the recent past. Or from another setting. Same thing if someone brought a counts-as Bretonnian army. Doesn't really belong. It has to fit in the universe.
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Post by: Platuan4th
JD21290 wrote:i couldnt resist here.
want proof aliens are real? track down robbie williams, he is currently chasing the little green men
most un- PC army: witch hunters.
afterall, they hunt witches.
That reminds me of the woman who exploded on one of my former co-workers at the Barnes because they had some kids/silly books next to some Wicca/magic books or something on a Halloween table and it was offensive to her because she was Wiccan and Halloween is a very important religious event for Wiccans and shouldn't be marginalized or taught to children that's it's fun and just an event to dress up and get candy.
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Post by: JD21290
thus showing my point plat
now, if a few forum members went out burning white witches it wouldnt be very PC would it?
yet witch hunters burn them all the time, hows that for PC?
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Post by: ph34r
Platuan4th wrote:ph34r wrote:Platuan4th wrote:I do get what you're saying, though, even if you meant it in the Extra-terrestrial definition, which is only 1/5 the definition of the word Alien.
I know what alien actually means, but it is pretty damn obvious that in 40k they mean space aliens. Things that are not human.
Relax, ph34r, it was a joke.
I know you weren't being super-serious. I'm not angry or on edge or anything, I just want to clarify that I do indeed know my English and am not being confused. No harm done.
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Post by: Jaric
Well 40k witches are psykers...maybe thats the difference?
I was thinking of keeping the red armband, but with the aquila instead of the swaz. Maybe thats the line.
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Post by: JD21290
jaric, define a psyker.
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Post by: ph34r
Jaric wrote:Well 40k witches are psykers...maybe thats the difference?
Yeah, in real life witches, or wiccans, or whatever, are just people that have a particular belief system. Witches in 40k is a term used to describe psykers, who in the grim darkness of the far future are very dangerous and can result in the deaths of hundreds or millions by themselves, and/or result in an entire planet being destroyed in exterminatus, if they are let run free.
EDIT: and psykers are those that channel the powers of chaos and the warp, sometimes when controlled very strictly they can use their terrible powers for good, most often they would cause the deaths of many.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Platuan4th wrote:That reminds me of the woman who exploded on one of my former co-workers at the Barnes because they had some kids/silly books next to some Wicca/magic books or something on a Halloween table and it was offensive to her because she was Wiccan and Halloween is a very important religious event for Wiccans and shouldn't be marginalized or taught to children that's it's fun and just an event to dress up and get candy.
Wiccans! Feth me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of Scientology, Dude, at least it's got aliens.
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Post by: Jaric
Wait I just thought of something that could change this whole colour scheme/theme debate:
Is a ww2 German colour scheme grim/dark enough for the 40k universe?
I mean no chains, no skulls...for an evil army its not very grim/dark...
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Post by: JD21290
Yeah, in real life witches, or wiccans, or whatever, are just people that have a particular belief system. Witches in 40k is a term used to describe psykers,
i want to call this as BS.
so a psyker is a witch now?
so, if a brother marine called the chapter libby a witch im guessing it wouldnt go down to well would it?
wiccan is as much a belief as it is a religion, meaning it should be respected equally to all other religions.
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Post by: mattyboy22
Platuan4th wrote:ph34r wrote:Platuan4th wrote:I do get what you're saying, though, even if you meant it in the Extra-terrestrial definition, which is only 1/5 the definition of the word Alien.
I know what alien actually means, but it is pretty damn obvious that in 40k they mean space aliens. Things that are not human.
Relax, ph34r, it was a joke.
As was my post.
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Post by: dementedwombat
JD21290 wrote:jaric, define a psyker.
Not exactly aimed at me, but I figure Chris Angel is as close as we got.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Jaric wrote:Well 40k witches are psykers...maybe thats the difference?
Several Wiccan subsects believe that their "Magick"(with a K, so you know it must be true!) is derived from Psychic sources.
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Post by: AdrianG
Edited quote.
Jaric wrote:So with the advent of the new Guard book, I am going to start a guard army. I was planning on painting the army with the colours of Germany circa ww2. Purlely an historically accurate colour scheme, no swastiks or ...?
I think if your original post had been about this much and a poll, there probably wouldn't be anywhere near as much frothing at the mouth occurring.
If you did an IG force using IG vehicles in Wermacht camo etc with (as had been suggested) Imperial Eagles, then I can't see the problem.
The full version of the post I think made a rod for your back.
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Post by: Vargtass
Purge the Alien is not racist, it's specist.
Oh my gawd, is this thread still going strong! GTFO, buy a life! xD
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
Kill the Mutant would have been a better example.
Poor muties! 
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Post by: ph34r
JD21290 wrote:Yeah, in real life witches, or wiccans, or whatever, are just people that have a particular belief system. Witches in 40k is a term used to describe psykers,
i want to call this as BS.
so a psyker is a witch now?
so, if a brother marine called the chapter libby a witch im guessing it wouldnt go down to well would it?
wiccan is as much a belief as it is a religion, meaning it should be respected equally to all other religions.
Belief system, religion, whatever. I did not mean that it was of lesser importance than if I had used the word religion.
I didn't say that psyker = witch. I said that the psykers which the witch hunters hunt are witches (logical, huh).
Orkeosaurus wrote:Kill the Mutant would have been a better example.
Yes, this would have been a better example, but in 40k mutants are dangerous, often chaos tainted people that are a threat to the imperium and to mankind.
mattyboy22 wrote:As was my post.
People in this thread have been seriously using logic similar to your joke logic to say that 40k is racist as it is. I can't read minds, I can't tell your one joking post from a sea of serious posts with the same reasoning.
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Post by: Bunker
Posting in an epic troll post.
OP gets 10/10.
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Post by: mattyboy22
Sorry ph34r, I'll try to use more emoticons next time.
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Post by: JD21290
Witches in 40k is a term used to describe psykers,
no, thats what you said.
and nice edit
phear, 40k is full of non- PC stuff, it never will be PC.
infact, im sure no one here could go an entire day, and not say a single thing thats slightly un- PC.
in the grim darkness there was only PC!
everything these days has to be vetted before its said or done due to the large amount of things that can now be found offensive, allthough going back 20 years or so only around a quarter were.
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Post by: Hordini
I've already had my say about what I think about the idea in general, and that it's in poor taste, but I also see a lot of messed-up ideas being tossed back and forth in this thread about "historical accuracy." It's pretty much impossible to have a "historically accurate" IG army, since no German units were equipped with lasguns or flak armor. Also, no German Heer unit that I've ever heard of wore armbands in combat, so why would including these even be a question, if a "historically accurate" color scheme is really your goal?
Malfred asked something similar earlier and no one really gave an answer, and I'm curious about this myself:
If you're really interested in the actual history and want your army to be some kind of teaching tool or something, why don't you just play a historical game like Flames of War, instead of trying to transplant something historical into 40k that doesn't belong there in the first place?
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Post by: ph34r
JD21290 wrote:Witches in 40k is a term used to describe psykers,
no, thats what you said.
and nice edit
I edited to clarify as you posted after I was done asking what a psyker is. I did indeed say "Witches in 40k is a term used to describe psykers,". What I did NOT say was "Witches in 40k is a term used to describe ALL psykers," or "Witches in 40k is a term that means psyker". I'm sorry that you were confused by my post. You interpreted it incorrectly and made a bad assumption. "Witch" is a term that describes psykers. It does not mean that all psykers are witches.
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Post by: Jaric
Hordini wrote:I've already had my say about what I think about the idea in general, and that it's in poor taste, but I also see a lot of messed-up ideas being tossed back and forth in this thread about "historical accuracy." It's pretty much impossible to have a "historically accurate" IG army, since no German units were equipped with lasguns or flak armor. Also, no German Heer unit that I've ever heard of wore armbands in combat, so why would including these even be a question, if a "historically accurate" color scheme is really your goal?
Malfred asked something similar earlier and no one really gave an answer, and I'm curious about this myself:
If you're really interested in the actual history and want your army to be some kind of teaching tool or something, why don't you just play a historical game like Flames of War, instead of trying to transplant something historical into 40k that doesn't belong there in the first place?
Well me and my friends play warhammer games for our tabletop pleasure. I really dont want to spend money on a new game and then force other people to buy to play with me. I dont have a guard army, and with the new book out soon I thought this would be a good idea.
And when I said a German ww2 army, I did mean at least one unit of Waffen SS. They did fight afterall. And I never said I want to teach people, I said for personal pleasure (and a slight OCD slant) I wanted an army that was historically accurate.
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Post by: JD21290
in which case phear its not my english thats bad, it would be yours.
"witches is a term used to describe psykers"
it also does not say "some psykers"
you have used a term to sum them up, and now you edit the post after i call it up and change it.
seems you are the confused one.
also, please dont talk about how i interpret things, your user name seems to say alot based on how you have chosen to spell it.
this time, i am leaving it, seems to be nothing but a child who cant keep track of which way he is going, and changes his posts to try and make himself right again.
and then tries to "clarify" the mistake afterwards by saying i am wrong and cannot read it right, how can i fething read it right when you change it?
pointless argument here, no one will ever agree on something, its just a magnet for preaching.
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Post by: ph34r
JD21290 wrote:in which case phear its not my english thats bad, it would be yours.
"witches is a term used to describe psykers"
it also does not say "some psykers"
you have used a term to sum them up, and now you edit the post after i call it up and change it.
seems you are the confused one.
also, please dont talk about how i interpret things, your user name seems to say alot based on how you have chosen to spell it.
this time, i am leaving it, seems to be nothing but a child who cant keep track of which way he is going, and changes his posts to try and make himself right again.
and then tries to "clarify" the mistake afterwards by saying i am wrong and cannot read it right, how can i fething read it right when you change it?
pointless argument here, no one will ever agree on something, its just a magnet for preaching.
My user name is a reference, and would not make sense unless it was spelled this way. What does my user name have to do with anything in this discussion? Answer: nothing.
Please do not insult my English if you decide to spell things incorrectly and not follow the rules of written English such as capitalization.
I edited my post when I saw your "please define psyker" post, you can see by the time stamp. I did not say "oops, I was wrong, better cover it up", I merely wanted to avoid double posting and respond to your new post.
Insulting me by calling me a child does not further your argument.
I see no problem with having "a term used to describe something" not mean "a term that is always used to describe something". And you know what? Some very puritan inquisitors might just say that your librarian Tigurius is a witch.
EDIT:
Jaric wrote:Well me and my friends play warhammer games for our tabletop pleasure. I really dont want to spend money on a new game and then force other people to buy to play with me. I dont have a guard army, and with the new book out soon I thought this would be a good idea.
And when I said a German ww2 army, I did mean at least one unit of Waffen SS. They did fight afterall. And I never said I want to teach people, I said for personal pleasure (and a slight OCD slant) I wanted an army that was historically accurate.
If you play with your friends mostly, then you probably know better than random people on the internet what you can and can't do with them. The main thing to keep in mind is, the fact is some people (not you) would find a Nazi army offensive, and the closer you make your army to being historically accurate, the more likely people will be offended, and not play against you.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
I'm sure every psyker in the galaxy would be called a witch by someone.
The Emperor? Kharn think's he's a witch. Kill Maim Burn.
::EDIT:: Wait, why the hell are we talking about witches?
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Post by: ph34r
Orkeosaurus wrote:I'm sure every psyker in the galaxy would be called a witch by someone.
The Emperor? Kharn think's he's a witch. Kill Maim Burn.
::EDIT:: Wait, why the hell are talking about witches?
Agreed on the "I'm sure every psyker in the galaxy would be called a witch by someone."
We are talking about witches because... JD21290 thinks that witch hunters in 40k means that 40k is racist, which I think is silly.
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Post by: AdrianG
Orkeosaurus wrote:
Wiccans! Feth me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of Scientology, Dude, at least it's got aliens.
Watch it heretic, I'm a Wiccan (pagan) 
(And no I'm not taking offence.. )
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Post by: JD21290
We are talking about witches because... JD21290 thinks that witch hunters in 40k means that 40k is racist, which I think is silly.
i cant leave this dead now can i?
ok, lets make a start.
1: you say about me name calling yet you started off by insulting my english, which in turn i reply with such a post, so its 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other.
2: please point out where i said witch hunters are RACIST.
please do not bother to either comment or insult me if you do not read my posts.
i made it pretty clear.
3: silly would be a unit of 5 guardsmen running at a unit of 12 genestealers.
everyone has an opinion, and an opinion is never right or wrong.
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
ph34r wrote:Agreed on the "I'm sure every psyker in the galaxy would be called a witch by someone."
We are talking about witches because... JD21290 thinks that witch hunters in 40k means that 40k is racist, which I think is silly.
I thought that was aliens?
Sorry, I guess I'm just more of a fan of sci-fi than fantasy. 
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Post by: Gwar!
So, just to totally derail the derailed train wreck that is this thread, if I had a Guard Army painted up as a Nazi army, but with the Iron Cross's on the Armbands, would you care? WITH FREE MASONS! Happy now?
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Post by: Orkeosaurus
How did that comment derail it?
You should have posted about Free Masons or something.
::EDIT:: Better. Personally, I think that the Free Masons did 9/11.
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Post by: Gwar!
Fine then! Happy now?
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Post by: ph34r
JD21290 wrote:1: you say about me name calling yet you started off by insulting my english, which in turn i reply with such a post, so its 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other.
I never insulted your English, I said that you interpreted me wrong once, and then you go and start insulting my name and trying to discredit me based on that.
2: please point out where i said witch hunters are RACIST.
please do not bother to either comment or insult me if you do not read my posts.
i made it pretty clear.
"most un- PC army: witch hunters.
afterall, they hunt witches."
"witch hunters burn them all the time, hows that for PC?"
Sorry, you are right, you did not say witch hunters are racist. You said that they are not politically correct. My points still stand, just replace racist with politically correct if you will.
EDIT: here you go, "We are talking about witches because... JD21290 thinks that witch hunters in 40k means that 40k is not PC, which I think is silly."
3: silly would be a unit of 5 guardsmen running at a unit of 12 genestealers.
everyone has an opinion, and an opinion is never right or wrong.
Yup, you can't have a wrong opinion, and I am allowed to think that yours is silly just as much as you are allowed to think mine is.
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Post by: Hordini
Jaric wrote:And when I said a German ww2 army, I did mean at least one unit of Waffen SS. They did fight afterall. And I never said I want to teach people, I said for personal pleasure (and a slight OCD slant) I wanted an army that was historically accurate.
The Waffen- SS didn't wear armbands in combat either.
And I know you didn't say you wanted to teach people per se, but someone mentioned something about how historical armies can be beneficial for keeping history alive, etc. I should have worded that bit a little more generally.
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Post by: JD21290
1: it was more a conflict of interestes, i admit i am wrong there and i do apologise for it.
2: this is 40k we are talking about, mass genocide, races being wiped out in mass exterminations, nothing is PC, but i was showing a small example of something.
3: if we all thought the same it would be a pretty boring world
anyway, i have to go now since the missus is complaining she wants to go to bed, so im off for the night, if theres anything more could you just PM it to me please?
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Post by: ph34r
JD21290 wrote:anyway, i have to go now since the missus is complaining she wants to go to bed, so im off for the night, if theres anything more could you just PM it to me please?
I guess I just interpreted PC to be that, in 40k everything is PC since it is its own universe, and putting our own non PC stuff from history into it does not make it okay/ PC, and you interpreted it your way. We just see it different ways.
I am glad that we can end the discussion, I see no value in continuing it.
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Post by: lokilokust
In all my years gaming, and when I worked at a games store, I've seen a total of seven imperial guard and space marine armies painted up to look like nazis.
Out of those seven players, all but one were white supremacists.
If i showed up to play a game and a potential opponent started taking nazi looking models out for a game that didn't involve historical nazis, i would probably decline to play them and, yes, feel a bit uncomfortable.
(Of course, I'm also gay and nazis tend to dislike us sodomites anyway.)
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Post by: Bookwrack
Hordini wrote:Malfred asked something similar earlier and no one really gave an answer, and I'm curious about this myself:
If you're really interested in the actual history and want your army to be some kind of teaching tool or something, why don't you just play a historical game like Flames of War, instead of trying to transplant something historical into 40k that doesn't belong there in the first place?
Because he wouldn't get the same response that this desperate cry for attention is garnering.
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Post by: Jaric
Bookwrack I already stated why im not playing FOW. Try to keep up as opposed to being useless in this conversation.
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Post by: Jaric
Hordini wrote:Jaric wrote:And when I said a German ww2 army, I did mean at least one unit of Waffen SS. They did fight afterall. And I never said I want to teach people, I said for personal pleasure (and a slight OCD slant) I wanted an army that was historically accurate.
The Waffen- SS didn't wear armbands in combat either.
And I know you didn't say you wanted to teach people per se, but someone mentioned something about how historical armies can be beneficial for keeping history alive, etc. I should have worded that bit a little more generally.
See this is why I said im starting this in May to give myself time to do the research. 
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Post by: Phryxis
Ulf and by Frazzled you are both being PC up to the point of being fascist.
I think they're just getting caught up in the moment. Clearly the army ulf describes is bad... But don't miss the temptation to be a fascist... It's encouraged in our society, so long as you're "right" about it, ie. PC.
If somebody comes in with a questionable army, it's not something that needs to come to blows. Give the guy a chance. Maybe he's a re-enactor. Maybe he's a cool person who just has a different outlook. If he's a douchebag, you'll find out soon enough.
The problem here is the rush to get into a fist fight, or shouting match, or just to presume to need to educate people on their "mistakes," and to be telling anyone and everyone how they should live. I'm no pacifist. I fully endorse the notion that it's up to the good folks to make sure the bad folks don't have their way. But it's not about looking for people giving you an excuse to punch them. It's about recognizing when people have given you no excuse NOT to punch them (or yell at them, or preach at them, or whatever).
Honestly, I don't think anybody here is running around punching people out. What's really going on, is a manifestation of political correctness. When something bad happens, say when Mike Vick is fighting pitbulls, people line up to say how outraged they are, to show everyone that they're SO moral, they can't even contain their hatred for immorality. Unfortunately, in doing so they demonstrate a lack of perspective, self-control, and ultimately a lack of genuine morality. Their morality is not their own internal compass, something for themselves. It's a display, something they do to elicit approval from others. Do the right thing because YOU will hate yourself for not doing it, not because somebody else will.
Don't play by the BS rules of political correctness.
but when you bring things like red arm bands and swastikas into your army it's not just an idea or a theme, it's you actually making a nazi army in 40k with that explicit purpose.
I think there's a big difference when the swastika shows up. Honestly, it still doesn't bother me, and I'd support the guy's right to do it, but that starts to get into a place where "you asked for it." I'd still say the guy screaming about it is a crybaby, but hey, they're out there. If you didn't want to get into periodic arguments with morons, you can't put swastikas out there.
At that point, one has to ask "did you WANT to get into fights with idiots?" Cause that's not really cool either.
To me the replacement of a swastika with, say, an aquilla, is an important thing to do. It almost removes they mystery. They're NOT Nazis, they just look like them, but they're explicitly not, because their iconography is different. It's not that the swastikas are hidden, they're explicitly replaced.
But that's me. Might work differently in the minds of others.
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Post by: Jaric
"When something bad happens, say when Mike Vick is fighting pitbulls..."
Just had an brainstorm. Need some 40k scale dobermans or german shepards...mmm what would the unit count as?
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by: ph34r
Phryxis wrote:but when you bring things like red arm bands and swastikas into your army it's not just an idea or a theme, it's you actually making a nazi army in 40k with that explicit purpose.
I think there's a big difference when the swastika shows up. Honestly, it still doesn't bother me, and I'd support the guy's right to do it, but that starts to get into a place where "you asked for it." I'd still say the guy screaming about it is a crybaby, but hey, they're out there. If you didn't want to get into periodic arguments with morons, you can't put swastikas out there.
At that point, one has to ask "did you WANT to get into fights with idiots?" Cause that's not really cool either.
I was almost going to applaud you for a in depth, lengthy post, but then in the end you just degenerate into calling those that do not agree with you idiots and crybabies. I had hope for one moment that you could put your point of view out there without insults. Disappointing.
EDIT: to clarify, I don't think that anybody would actually fight about it, or should, but that doesn't mean you are more right by calling them a moron.
DOUBLE EDIT: My post was probably more harsh than it should have been, but whatever. I feel by now that this thread has been done to death, and I am going to leave for greener pastures.
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