Fafnir wrote:

Puscifer wrote:One thing I want to know, aside from allies, is the new rage USR.

Is it just +2A or does it include the 5th ed rules?

My opinion is, if it is just +2A, BADC Armies are going to become very very deadly and much more reliable.

It is only +2A, no other restrictions.

Cheers Dude. It's made my selection a little easier for the next army. I've always wanted a BADC army. Narrowed them down to Dark Angels, BADC and Chaos.

Drunkspleen wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:IE, wyches are now designed to work against the fluff.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here?

I'm guessing that he means that Wyches in the fluff are gladiators, lightning fast and able to play with their opponents without getting much damage in return. In fifth, this is (mostly) true, with their 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. In sixth, Wyches are just cheap vehicle hunters that get shot up if they plan on assaulting anything else.

Fluff tells about how they are born infantry killers, and now they suck at it, and they're decent at killing vehicles, so much for that swift armour to help you move faster with more agility when fighting the enemy in hand to hand...

Right, thought for a second you were saying something almost entirely opposite, glad I checked before unleashing on you

In fifth, this is (mostly) true, with their 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. In sixth, Wyches are just cheap vehicle hunters that get shot up

Considering I've been following the rumours and metagaming scenarios and matchups in my head eight hours per day for the last week, pray tell me what changed so dramatically to make Wyches from unstoppable gladiators to cheap vehicle hunters ready to be shot to pieces? FNP 5+ and overwatch? FNP is as minor a nerf as it gets considering the buff it also received. It's more of an adjustment to bring it exactly in line with Reanimation Protocols. Overwatch then? What kind of squads have you been assaulting? Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn. That's nothing. Add in the fact that a standard MSU Marine squad of five guys with rapid fire weapons kills something like 0.5 Wyches when overwatching, and you're being ridiculous.

Overwatch seems to be pretty useless then.

Therion wrote:

In fifth, this is (mostly) true, with their 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. In sixth, Wyches are just cheap vehicle hunters that get shot up

Considering I've been following the rumours and metagaming scenarios and matchups in my head eight hours per day for the last week, pray tell me what changed so dramatically to make Wyches from unstoppable gladiators to cheap vehicle hunters ready to be shot to pieces? FNP 5+ and overwatch? FNP is as minor a nerf as it gets considering the buff it also received. It's more of an adjustment to bring it exactly in line with Reanimation Protocols. Overwatch then? What kind of squads have you been assaulting? Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn. That's nothing. Add in the fact that a standard MSU Marine squad of five guys with rapid fire weapons kills something like 0.5 Wyches when overwatching, and you're being ridiculous.

Wait...what?

I thought it was each squad can only overwatch once per turn, ie. if you are assaulted by more than 1 unit, you can only shoot one

Please correct me if I am wrong

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn. That's nothing.

No it's once per unit per turn, the AMA on Reddit confirms this.

[–]Rixitotal[S] 7 points 14 hours ago
once per unit per turn. like stand and shoot from fantasy.
permalinkparent

Add in the fact that a standard MSU Marine squad of five guys with rapid fire weapons kills something like 0.5 Wyches when overwatching

How are you coming up with this, 10 bolter shots is 1.6 hits, for 1.1 wounds, no save, 0.74 after FNP and then there's the danger of losing far more guys to a lucky round of rolling, and the fact that you aren't necessarily assaulting miniscule squads, it's a serious impact on them.

My understanding of Overwatch was a bit different.

A defending unit uses it when charged. Only one use per assault phase.

If an attacking unit engages multiple defenders in assault, each of the defending units gets its own Overwatch fire.

You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Burna Boys are better shot down anyway.

wuestenfux wrote:Overwatch seems to be pretty useless then.

The following discussion will start now:

"My overwatch army is useless!"
"I thought I could overwatch with normal BS with every unit every time they're assaulted so my entire army basically got an extra shooting phase against my friend's unarmoured naked lady assault troops!"
"Mat Ward ruined my plan! I hate him!"
"GW hates my army and wants to see it destroyed."

No it's once per unit per turn, the AMA on Reddit confirms this.

Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

JB wrote:My understanding of Overwatch was a bit different.

A defending unit uses it when charged. Only one use per assault phase.

If an attacking unit engages multiple defenders in assault, each of the defending units gets its own Overwatch fire.

Yeah thats right

So if one unit charges into two, both can overwatch

If two units charge one, the one can only overwatch one of the two attacking units

Hope that makes sense

wuestenfux wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Burna Boys are better shot down anyway.

Quite. In most games, Overwatch-- like Snap Fire-- will mean nothing but perhaps a few lucky hits over the course of a game, and the few units that are dangerous when overwatching can be dealt with by means other than assault.

Therion wrote:

In fifth, this is (mostly) true, with their 4+ invulnerable and 4+ FnP. In sixth, Wyches are just cheap vehicle hunters that get shot up

Considering I've been following the rumours and metagaming scenarios and matchups in my head eight hours per day for the last week, pray tell me what changed so dramatically to make Wyches from unstoppable gladiators to cheap vehicle hunters ready to be shot to pieces? FNP 5+ and overwatch? FNP is as minor a nerf as it gets considering the buff it also received. It's more of an adjustment to bring it exactly in line with Reanimation Protocols. Overwatch then? What kind of squads have you been assaulting? Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn. That's nothing. Add in the fact that a standard MSU Marine squad of five guys with rapid fire weapons kills something like 0.5 Wyches when overwatching, and you're being ridiculous.

I think that math is wrong providing out of 20 shots you should get a minimum of 3 hits and 2 wounds which means 1-2 dead as i believe the 4+ is against CC attacks, and in close combat the FnP gets worse against standard attacks too, another thing to look at is Wyches won't be as good at holding units up, and you can easily get more either if you're lucky and if your shooting at standard BS. Terminators an obvious thing here, previously wyches did really well killing a few off with an agoniser, but I believe it's wounds on a 4+ power weapon so it'll be AP3 now? correct me if i'm wrong.

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn.

It's refreshing to see you misunderstand something in a way that makes you less appalled with the new edition for once!

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn.

It's refreshing to see you misunderstand something in a way that makes you less appalled with the new edition for once!

It's unsurprising to see you still have nothing to add to this discussion. I operate based on the rumours that are confirmed to be true.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

May I ask why it hurts fragile melee units more? Because more of them die to overwatch than Marines? Isn't that fragility supposed to be reflected in the points cost, meaning you get more of them, unless they're the glass cannon type that really hits hard once they get their way? There's nothing wrong in this overwatch rule at all in my opinion. A BS1 bolter round kills 0.028 Assault Marines for a total points cost of 0.56. A BS1 bolter round kills 0.074 Wyches for a total points cost of 0.74. Is this a dramatic difference? The difference doesn't exist because of the the relative armour saves or anything but because the differences in points cost. Wyches are (as you can see only slightly) more fragile than Assault Marines and if you don't feel that's justified by their close combat abilities then that's a problem the guy who wrote the codex should have addressed. We can't start making rules that make shooting less effective just because shooting kills more fragile guys than it does tough underpriced guys.

I see others have already addressed the other aspects in overwatch. The scale and impact has been blown out of proportion. If anything you should talk about snap fire and how it encourages movement and does nothing to help weapons that could already be fired on the move or simply all the time.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

Bollocks. Meleé units do just fine, and they will do in the new edition. A shooty unit has to shoot at a melee unit for several turns before it dies, but a melee unit charging a shooty unit will kill it straight off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn.

It's refreshing to see you misunderstand something in a way that makes you less appalled with the new edition for once!

It's unsurprising to see you still have nothing to add to this discussion or in fact any discussions. I operate based on the rumours that are confirmed to be true.

Each UNIT can overwatch fire once per turn, not each unit per army.

Therion wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Therion wrote:Only one enemy unit in their entire army can overwatch per turn.

It's refreshing to see you misunderstand something in a way that makes you less appalled with the new edition for once!

It's unsurprising to see you still have nothing to add to this discussion or in fact any discussions. I operate based on the rumours that are confirmed to be true.

But a player can overwatch as many times as he wants in his turn, only that each unit can only overwatch once, example

I have two units being charged, both can use overwatch to shoot the enemy and try to stop them getting into charge range

Edit: ninjad

There seems to be some missunderstanding...you don't choose to stand and shoot (overwatch, although it's not called that) during your own turn, it's automatic.

Well, overwatch is based on BS 1 and so the opposite of killy.

TBD wrote:

JB wrote:It is illegal because it has too many elite and heavy choices as allies. The Ally FOC only allows one of each after you take the compulsory HQ and one Troop choice.

Yes, on second glance he indeed has some Dreads too many.

Caught you reading want you wanted to see.

0-1 is none or one for all you renegade list builders.

I'm hoping agoniser will be FAQ'd to have AP2, what else would they expect us to do? Fly to the Imperium and buy a power axe? Would probably snap our frail arms with the weight anyway...

Lame jokes aside, I think part of 5th ed Wyches' advantage is that we can always assault on full strength, so having a few being knocked down before the assault happens would probably weakened the wyches quite considerably? Considering we aren't exactly hitting on good strength, but relying on sheer number of attacks + agoniser hekatrix to deal wounds. Against T4 or above, I meant. Don't have my BRB with me right now, but on average, the wyches unit would probably have a harder time winning combat, even against shooty space marines.

Couldn't all space marines shooty units get a flamer anyway?

I don't think the FNP changes is an intended nerf for wyches however, it's more like we got hit by a stray bullet, I believe they just want to make FNP marines even harder to kill in melee, or in a less "GW hates xeno's" way, units with good armour save will be harder to kill in combat.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

6th edition is a buff to melee over shooting. Melee units are much better (both in terms of accuracy and in terms of damage) against vehicles, have longer charge distances, and lots of restrictions have been put back on shooting (no killing models out of line of sight, no killing models out of range) to boot. Overwatch is mild "punishment" when it comes with the rewards given to melee units by the rest of the edition.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:I don't think you can always blame the list writers totally, GW have made a fairly complex new system and it's going to take a while before it completely settles in for everyone. Earlier i saw the 1995 Tau list was wrong as he used the 2000 chart despite it being 1995 points.

It'll most likely be that games with a limit of 2000pts or more will double the force org, rather than the size of the armies themselves, so that Tau army might not be incorrect at 1995pts.

Of course, it'll all come down to the specific wording. However, it's incorrect to assume that the "Tau list was wrong" because of wording we don't know.

It's the same with the LF list, we don't know for sure how many allies we can take yet, I was just following the RAW implications of that example shown in the picture which was the list had to be 2000+ points to get a second FoC, and correct me if i'm wrong but isn't 1995 points less than 2000?

As I said, it's more likely that the extra FOC slots will be available to armies when the agreed points limit is 2000pts or more, rather than the armies themselves. I mean, you can take a 1995pt army to a 2000pt tournament, and your battles will still be called "2000pt games" because the limit is what typically determines the size of the game. Plus, I strongly doubt that an army would suddenly become illegal if it became 1pt cheaper.

It's like in older editions when special characters often required armies over a particular size (usually 1500 or 2000pts). It was ruled (or, at least, played) back then that this referred to the size limit of the game, not the total points cost of your army.

But, as I also said, it's not possible to say that something is definitely right or definitely wrong when we simply don't know the actual wording yet.

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

16 rapid fire shots at BS1, 16/6 hits, 32/18 wounds, 64/54 casualties.
1 flamer, 2 hits, 4/3 wounds, 8/9 casualties.
1 missile launcher at BS1, 1/6 hits, 5/36 wounds, 5/36 casualties.

Total =~ 2.21 dead Wyches.

So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/4 of my unit. How is that not a devastating blow? What purpose do my Wyches have now?

EDIT: Woops, I'm off on the missile launcher. Fixed now.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

Personally I think it's a fine rule.
All the fear and uncertainty was rather fixed with 'BS1' to be fair.

On a thought - I realise this probably isn't the case, but a way to help 'nids and lessen the 'blow' of no allies, could be to make Tyranids the only race that can ally to itself.

Would fit with the endless horde thing, and offset the potential extra 7 foc slots of other armies.

Mandor wrote:So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/3 of my unit. How is that not a devastating blow? What purpose do my Wyches have now?

We could cross our fingers and hope that GW rules in an FAQ that Wyches get their dodge save against overwatch?

Mandor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

16 rapid fire shots at BS1, 16/6 hits, 32/18 wounds, 64/54 casualties.
1 flamer, 2 hits, 4/3 wounds, 8/9 casualties.
1 missile launcher at BS1, 1/6 hits, 5/36 wounds, 5/36 casualties.

Total =~ 2.21 dead Wyches.

So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/4 of my unit. How is that not a devastating blow? What purpose do my Wyches have now?

EDIT: Woops, I'm off on the missile launcher. Fixed now.

If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Cheexsta wrote:
We could cross our fingers and hope that GW rules in an FAQ that Wyches get their dodge save against overwatch?

From an RP standpoint, that would be silly. Bullets travel faster at closer ranges and you have a smaller time window in which to avoid what was an already very small time window. At point blank the impact from a bullet is almost instantaneous, whereas at maximum range you may have several seconds before impact.

Then again, the idea of "hull points" is ridiculous from an RP standpoint, and it's in the game, so I don't know.

Maybe they could take an angle that actually balances units against each other and internally balances Codexes so that you don't have to worry about things like this.

Fetterkey wrote:

If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

You must be kidding. It's an assault unit. To lose that many models -before- an assault in an assault unit is devastating, especially for a unit that relies on high initiative like Eldar. It could very easily shift momentum and allow another similarly costed unit to tip the balance.

Fetterkey wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

6th edition is a buff to melee over shooting. Melee units are much better (both in terms of accuracy and in terms of damage) against vehicles, have longer charge distances, and lots of restrictions have been put back on shooting (no killing models out of line of sight, no killing models out of range) to boot. Overwatch is mild "punishment" when it comes with the rewards given to melee units by the rest of the edition.

Longer charge distances, good one.

Nobody is going to be declaring charges over 6, maybe 7 inches, at 7 inches you have a 58% chance of succeeding with your 2d6 roll to get into combat, that means, 42% of the time, you a) don't get to assault the enemy and b) give the enemy a free round of shooting at your melee unit. Assault ranges haven't gotten significantly longer, even if you can roll up a 12 every once in a while.

What other "rewards" have melee units gotten? I'd honestly love for you to name a few, I really hope there's something I'm missing, as it stands, they are at a significant disadvantage compared to last edition in my mind.

Ovion wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

Personally I think it's a fine rule.
All the fear and uncertainty was rather fixed with 'BS1' to be fair.

The rule is fine... to MEQ or TEQ assault units. It's just very powerful against Xenos assault armies. Especially Eldar and Dark Eldar, who have specialist units that excel in assault, but can't take getting shot up.

That's just your 10 Tac Marines, it could get worse depending on the unit. considering if you charged a unit of Ward Knights with Dual Psycannon you'd not get FnP against and that's a lot of shots from them alone.

Also i seem to be thinking we're forgetting the points, would the Raider last THAT long for us not to whittle them down in shooting anyway?

Byte wrote:

TBD wrote:

JB wrote:It is illegal because it has too many elite and heavy choices as allies. The Ally FOC only allows one of each after you take the compulsory HQ and one Troop choice.

Yes, on second glance he indeed has some Dreads too many.

Caught you reading want you wanted to see.

Not at all. I didn't pay attention to his last couple of 3x's though.

It is quite obvious that allies only allow 1 elite, FA & HS, so I don't know why he listed that.

Not as if 6x Long Fangs + 4x Rune Priest, etc, wouldn't be a basis for concern on their own

Fetterkey wrote:If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow", because I can hardly avoid it tactically and I happens to all of my assault units, not just the one. And of course I'll be rethinking my army list. But apparently you aren't, if you aren't taking a flamer in a Tactical Squad in 6th.

And when all is said and done, it could be 2nd Ed Overwatch:

"My army is on overwatch. Your turn."
"So is mine. Your turn."
"Still on overwatch. Your turn."
"Ditto. Your turn."
"Staying on overwatch. Your turn."
"Same again. Your turn."


Uhh... Overwatch in 2nd Ed was dreadful. This is a breath of fresh air in comparison.

Fetterkey wrote:

Mandor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

16 rapid fire shots at BS1, 16/6 hits, 32/18 wounds, 64/54 casualties.
1 flamer, 2 hits, 4/3 wounds, 8/9 casualties.
1 missile launcher at BS1, 1/6 hits, 5/36 wounds, 5/36 casualties.

Total =~ 2.21 dead Wyches.

So, assuming I'm even reaching assault after 2-3 of my Wyches die, I have already lost 1/4 of my unit. How is that not a devastating blow? What purpose do my Wyches have now?

EDIT: Woops, I'm off on the missile launcher. Fixed now.

If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Well, I wouldn't care about losing 2 Wyches from a 10 men/girls squads. Winning also depends on when, where, and what to charge.

Mandor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow", because I can hardly avoid it tactically and I happens to all of my assault units, not just the one. And of course I'll be rethinking my army list. But apparently you aren't, if you aren't taking a flamer in a Tactical Squad in 6th.

How many Tacticals do you think they are going to kill anyway, do you really think 7 Wyches are going to do enough damage? Note that the SMs may also have a power fist to deny FnP as well as the wyches having an agoniser. If the fearless rule means no casualties now it's not going to do any harm for SMs if they lose combat because even if they run away they suffer the same ruling as Fearless. On average with 30 attacks you should hit 15 and wound with only 5, killing 2 or 3 marines first round, so you've equalled their overwatch tally, they will then kill some back, and you'll get less attacks each turn, and the marines may even take the day.

And you won't know if No-one will take flamers in 6th,

TedNugent wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:
We could cross our fingers and hope that GW rules in an FAQ that Wyches get their dodge save against overwatch?

From an RP standpoint, that would be silly. Bullets travel faster at closer ranges and you have a smaller time window in which to avoid what was an already very small time window. At point blank the impact from a bullet is almost instantaneous, whereas at maximum range you may have several seconds before impact.

I know...just trying to instil a little hope

Cheexsta wrote:

TedNugent wrote:

Cheexsta wrote:
We could cross our fingers and hope that GW rules in an FAQ that Wyches get their dodge save against overwatch?

From an RP standpoint, that would be silly. Bullets travel faster at closer ranges and you have a smaller time window in which to avoid what was an already very small time window. At point blank the impact from a bullet is almost instantaneous, whereas at maximum range you may have several seconds before impact.

I know...just trying to instil a little hope

Tell that to Mr Ward's 5+ Dodge Death Cult Assassins which get it everywhere, including against stuff like flamers!

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Mandor wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:If losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow," go home and rethink your army list. Also, nobody takes flamers in Tactical Squads anymore.

Losing 2-3 toughness 3 models is a "devastating blow", because I can hardly avoid it tactically and I happens to all of my assault units, not just the one. And of course I'll be rethinking my army list. But apparently you aren't, if you aren't taking a flamer in a Tactical Squad in 6th.

How many Tacticals do you think they are going to kill anyway, do you really think 7 Wyches are going to do enough damage? Note that the SMs may also have a power fist to deny FnP as well as the wyches having an agoniser. If the fearless rule means no casualties now it's not going to do any harm for SMs if they lose combat because even if they run away they suffer the same ruling as Fearless. On average with 30 attacks you should hit 15 and wound with only 5, killing 2 or 3 marines first round, so you've equalled their overwatch tally, they will then kill some back, and you'll get less attacks each turn, and the marines may even take the day.

And you won't know if No-one will take flamers in 6th,

Exactly, you are totally right. So essentially you are saying Wyches are useless now. I agree.

Mandor wrote:And of course I'll be rethinking my army list. But apparently you aren't

He appears to take his models' 6th edition logic, and apply it on potential opposing models' 5th edition metagame logic.

xttz wrote:Some comments in bold:

Altruizine wrote:Some Warseerites have been keeping a decent tally:

Pros:
+ Gargoyles and Raveners have long charge ranges -- gargoyles also get I10 attack on charge

Debateable
- New Prefered Enemy rules -- afaik this means they get +1 to hit in both shooting and melee. this is actually a buff for units with dual ScyTals or twin-linked weapons
- New Feel No Pain Rules (5+ save, but works against AP 1/2) -- could see FNP being used more on MC's as a way to dodge wounds from lascannons etc

Cons
- Boneswords only AP3 -- not true
- Everything gets a chance to stop the Tyranid psychic powers -- isn't that only in a 6" range?

Source on Boneswords AP3 not true? Because I think that was from the Reddit guy, reading the rule book.

Btw how exactly does Overwatch work with flamers involved.

Wouldn't that actually be a very good weapon as it negates the BS1, or am I making some sort of error here?

TBD wrote:Btw how exactly does Overwatch work with flamers involved.

Wouldn't that actually be a very good weapon as it negates the BS1, or am I making some sort of error here?

D3 Auto hits instead of models under the template, now THAT would be the Filth

TBD wrote:

Byte wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
6x Long Fangs w/ 5x ML
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, MH
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, JotWW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, TW
1x Rune Priest w/ LL, SC
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
5x Grey Hunters w/ Melta, Wolf Standard & Mark of the Wulfen in a Rhino
and...
1x Coteaz
7x Servitors (troops) w/ Plasma Cannons
3x Psyrifleman Dreads
3x Venerable Psyrifleman Dreads

So that's 3k points of pure broken right there.

This is actually a big concern to me. This list is totally illegal. This will become very common. List writers following the rules as they want to read it.

How exactly is it illegal and how are list writers "following the rules as they want to read them" when that FOC clearly allows it?

(if that actually is the FOC as in the book of course)

You are only allowed 1 Heavy Support and 1 Elites choice of allies, that list took three.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

TBD wrote:Btw how exactly does Overwatch work with flamers involved.

Wouldn't that actually be a very good weapon as it negates the BS1, or am I making some sort of error here?

D3 Auto hits instead of models under the template, now THAT would be the Filth

Charge my 15 Burnas. Go on, do it.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

TBD wrote:Btw how exactly does Overwatch work with flamers involved.

Wouldn't that actually be a very good weapon as it negates the BS1, or am I making some sort of error here?

D3 Auto hits instead of models under the template, now THAT would be the Filth

So wouldn't Marine squads be more inclined to take flamers now, because of Overwatch?

We could maybe probably see less tanks in 6th as well, so changing a few meltas for flamers doesn't sound too crazy.

lord_blackfang wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

TBD wrote:Btw how exactly does Overwatch work with flamers involved.

Wouldn't that actually be a very good weapon as it negates the BS1, or am I making some sort of error here?

D3 Auto hits instead of models under the template, now THAT would be the Filth

Charge my 15 Burnas. Go on, do it.

Well, I'd charge on my terms.

Units with the overwatch rule - do they stand and shoot at normal BS ?

Griever wrote:[ou are only allowed 1 Heavy Support and 1 Elites choice of allies, that list took three.

Thank you, but at least 3 others have already pointed out that it was this part of the list that was referred to

So do you get to use overwatch per unit when multi assaulted?

wuestenfux wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

TBD wrote:Btw how exactly does Overwatch work with flamers involved.

Wouldn't that actually be a very good weapon as it negates the BS1, or am I making some sort of error here?

D3 Auto hits instead of models under the template, now THAT would be the Filth

Charge my 15 Burnas. Go on, do it.

Well, I'd charge on my terms.

Units with the overwatch rule - do they stand and shoot at normal BS ?

Not normally, but they can if they get one of the new spells off, but every burna boy would do D3 auto hits with Overwatch, shame cos you won't get the power weapon in addition :/

If it was 5E, the wyches would have more of a chance, so it's true they've been nerfed a bit, especially if the Agoniser is only AP3, gone will be the days of Tarpitting those 5 termies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TedNugent wrote:So do you get to use overwatch per unit when multi assaulted?

Yes, it was in the WD Battle Rep i believe

So, if 10 wyches charge 10 Burna Boyz, how would Overwatch work out for everyone involved?

TedNugent wrote:So do you get to use overwatch per unit when multi assaulted?

Each unit that is targeted for assault will get to immediately resolve an overwatch - this may result in more than one unit firing into a single assaulting unit. However, If a unit is assaulted by 2 enemy units, they may only overwatch fire on one or the other. Rapid fire guns shoot twice, assault weapons shoot the number of times on their profile, blast and heavy weapons may NOT fire. The resultant casualties from overwatch are pulled from the front as normal, which might keep an assaulting unit out of range. Pinning and Morale checks are not triggered by overwatch.

That is what we know of the rule so far.

How is it that people are posting rules clarifications already? Honestly. Wait 'til Saturday.

TBD wrote:So, if 10 wyches charge 10 Burna Boyz, how would Overwatch work out for everyone involved?

Each Burna Boy inflicts D3 Auto Hits per Burna's stats i believe, IE, lots of Dead Wyches, not sure if these will be rolling a D3 per Burna or rolling a D3 resembling the whole squad, IE rolling a 6 and each getting 3 Auto hits or rolling individually, so some get 3 Auto some get 1 Ect.

Cadaver wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Ah and there you have it "if someone turns up with imperial guard and dark eldar etc." you DONT hve to play them, its YOUR hobby, sit down with your mates/club and talk it out and come to an agreement

As to the "why should we fix our own game", simply because nothing is perfect, we (community) have beendoing this since 40k began, why stop now... i mean look at the Inat FAQ, this exiss mainly because GW are so half arsed, if they did a proper job in the first place then the INATFAQ wouldnt exist at all, also look at the massive amount of Rules lawering that goes on in 5th already...
all im trying to say is, if you dont like the way the game is going do something about it and try to organise something with your local meta groups, being lazy or apathetic about something never helps.

But your point is totally valid and i understand, i just dont dislike what i have seen to the extent you do

I didn't quote the whole multi-quote tree you guys had going, but I wanted to respond to a few points, so this is directed at the general conversation that you guys were having.

A better analogy than the one presented earlier is this: Alcohol is legal most everywhere. Some people also abuse this right and drive drunk, start fights, etc. Sometimes this has serious repercussions. However, we don't ban alcohol because of a few bad apples. Most people will behave as responsible adults. Those that don't will be removed from interacting with others should the group choose to do so, just as drunk drivers are removed from society on occasion for their actions. Everyone is free to do whatever they like, and sometimes they will get reprimanded for poor behavior. There will always be a small group who will abuse any ruleset no matter what the ruleset allows, but I'd rather not remove the ability of the many who will use it for personal enjoyment without negatively affecting those around them.

I feel the net lists and stuff that we can expect to see will push people's limits with allies quickly enough. The dude rolling up with GK/SW spam fest list should promptly expect to find himself sitting around with noone to play because most people don't want to play WAAC uber cheese.

Now when Formosa brings his Ravenwing to the imaginary shop where I also happen to play, I would love to play his Ravenwing with Stormraven list cause that's cool as hell. Just as I'm sure he'd be cool with me bringing my CSM/Chaos Daemons list that is not built to spam but rather to provide a means for building a fluffy Chaos army. I don't actually know Formosa, but I imagine we'd get along just fine and have a fun game.

I know its a few pages back but i needed sleep, and absolutely i would play you with that list.. i mean c'mon why dont CSM get proper deamons lol, id just consider it playing the chaos codex as it should have been

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

TBD wrote:So, if 10 wyches charge 10 Burna Boyz, how would Overwatch work out for everyone involved?

Each Burna Boy inflicts D3 Auto Hits per Burna's stats i believe, IE, lots of Dead Wyches, not sure if these will be rolling a D3 per Burna or rolling a D3 resembling the whole squad, IE rolling a 6 and each getting 3 Auto hits or rolling individually, so some get 3 Auto some get 1 Ect.

Yeah...it'd be d3 per flamer...

Based on what we've seen I don't think assaulting ANYTHING with a 5+ or worse save into burna boyz is a good idea. Sometimes even space marines shouldn't do it either. Just shoot the scoundrels.

Good news everyone - I'm getting back into 40k

For weeks, I've been banging the FOW drum, and I'll stand by what I said. But these allies rules have brought me out of retirement in order to save the game I used to love.

I will be the last bastion of integrity in the gaming community. In other words, I will not sully my units with the taint of alien troops

I don't want to ally with Orks, I want to shoot the b******s!!! I don't want pointy-eared elves prancing around, I want large templates on top of them!!!

At the risk of sounding like a well known dictator, I will be enforcing a racial purity rule in my force. (ratlings are excluded)

Also, apart from the rulebook, I won't be spending a penny on new stuff. I will make terrain and tap into my vast collection of models.

Here is my 1000 point Imperial Guard force for 6th edition. Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough!!

CCS: Powerfist, medic, Company standard, 2 bodyguards, plasma gun, vox (no melta guns or chimera. stick that up your tournament list

Troop: Veteran squad with chimera GL,Vox, and heavy flamer. Sargeant has power sword and plasma pistol
Troop: Veteran squad with GL and vox. Sergeant with plasma pistol and power sword
Troop: Veteran squad squad with GL and vox.

Elite: 5 Ratlings

Heavy: Leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsoons.

Fast Attack: Devildog tank.

My opponent will be using necrons and will be fielding: a lord, 2 x 10 man warrior squad, scarabs, some destroyers, some necron immortals, and some flying thing he's still painting. And maybe something else.

I expect it to be a fun game. Will I care if my plastic soldiers get beaten? I doubt it...

Mandor wrote:

Ovion wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Therion wrote:Even if it was (the very same guy said different last night) the exaggerations going on here are a bit wild.

Regardless, it's a punishment for melee units that wasn't warranted, and unsurprisingly, hurts the more fragile melee units much more than the ubiquitous Ward Marine.

It may not render these units useless, but they didn't need it at all, and it's a bad shift for the already shooting inclined metagame.

Personally I think it's a fine rule.
All the fear and uncertainty was rather fixed with 'BS1' to be fair.

The rule is fine... to MEQ or TEQ assault units. It's just very powerful against Xenos assault armies. Especially Eldar and Dark Eldar, who have specialist units that excel in assault, but can't take getting shot up.

I do run an assaulty Dark Eldar, and I'm still fine with it. (admittedly a coven but still.)

It also gives my Tau a teency bit better chance in cc.

FnP is also now 5+ but works vs power weapons, and I can take an Autarch to boost my reserves. Things change, we adapt, it's all good.

PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

PrimarchX wrote:How is it that people are posting rules clarifications already? Honestly. Wait 'til Saturday.

Please b ..... , go back where you are coming from ... Cave?

Anyone can confirm the squadron and dreds rules. Also does obscured is still 4+ save?

Cadaver wrote:

A better analogy than the one presented earlier is this: Alcohol is legal most everywhere. Some people also abuse this right and drive drunk, start fights, etc. Sometimes this has serious repercussions. However, we don't ban alcohol because of a few bad apples. Most people will behave as responsible adults. Those that don't will be removed from interacting with others should the group choose to do so, just as drunk drivers are removed from society on occasion for their actions. Everyone is free to do whatever they like, and sometimes they will get reprimanded for poor behavior. There will always be a small group who will abuse any ruleset no matter what the ruleset allows, but I'd rather not remove the ability of the many who will use it for personal enjoyment without negatively affecting those around them.

Not that I don't agree with you, but now what if there is a "get as drunk as possible" contest being held (aka a competitive tournament) and people suddenly get access to 40% alcohol drinks instead of the usual much lower % (aka the amount of spam and shenanigans)?


It seem to be mostly tournament players who are concerned, as casual players can simply refuse to play cheeze and/or not use certain part of the rules if they don't like them.

god.ra wrote:Anyone can confirm the squadron and dreds rules. Also does obscured is still 4+ save?

Obscured is now a 5+.

Drunkspleen wrote:
Longer charge distances, good one.

Nobody is going to be declaring charges over 6, maybe 7 inches, at 7 inches you have a 58% chance of succeeding with your 2d6 roll to get into combat, that means, 42% of the time, you a) don't get to assault the enemy and b) give the enemy a free round of shooting at your melee unit. Assault ranges haven't gotten significantly longer, even if you can roll up a 12 every once in a while.

With Fleet/Jump Infantry's ability to reroll the charge dice, that's a 92% success rate of making a 6" charge, 82% success rate of making a 7" charge, and a 65% success rate to make an 8" charge. You still have a 48% chance to make a 9" charge. So fleet has a slightly reduced assault threat range (with the ability to get closer faster via run rerolls), and jump infantry get a boost to threat range.

Drunkspleen wrote:What other "rewards" have melee units gotten? I'd honestly love for you to name a few, I really hope there's something I'm missing, as it stands, they are at a significant disadvantage compared to last edition in my mind.

Can only kill what is visible and in range is a big one. Night fighting for at least turn 1 will also help against most armies. Jump Infantry are now fantastic assaulters, especially with the extra I10 hit on the charge. No more fearless wounds is also a very big deal.

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

TBD wrote:Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

I really hope not. Sisters of Vulkan anyone? *Edit: oh, they're Grudging Allies apparently. Nevermind!

Nothing at all points to this but i wish special characters were prohibited from joining an ally detachment.

Is a Great Unclean One a unique or special character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TBD wrote:

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

tetrisphreak wrote:Nothing at all points to this but i wish special characters were prohibited from joining an ally detachment.

Is a Great Unclean One a unique or special character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TBD wrote:

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

You dont need combat tactics to benefit from Vulkans abilities. So Assuming effects carry over between brotheers in arms taking Vulkan would indeed twin link meltas and flamers.

TBD wrote:So, if 10 wyches charge 10 Burna Boyz, how would Overwatch work out for everyone involved?

Those wyches would die a horrible death. Not. Even. Close.

Kurce wrote:

TBD wrote:So, if 10 wyches charge 10 Burna Boyz, how would Overwatch work out for everyone involved?

Those wyches would die a horrible death. Not. Even. Close.

Let's just say the Wyches Declare an Assault, Nothing More

tetrisphreak wrote:Nothing at all points to this but i wish special characters were prohibited from joining an ally detachment.

Is a Great Unclean One a unique or special character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TBD wrote:

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

Does a Dreadnought or a Land Speeder with a flamer not currently benefit from Vulkan's rules too?

I thought that they do, but I could be wrong.

TBD wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

Does a Dreadnought or a Land Speeder with a flamer not currently benefit from Vulkan's rules too?

I thought that they do, but I could be wrong.

They do, you don't need combat tactics.

Is it 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that No Retreat wounds are g-o-n-e-gone from the rules?

I know it would most likely be a terrible idea, but I do enjoy the thought of SW players taking 8 HQs in a 2000+ point game.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is it 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that No Retreat wounds are g-o-n-e-gone from the rules?

It's 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that one guy from Reddit couldn't find them in the book.

lord_blackfang wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Is it 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that No Retreat wounds are g-o-n-e-gone from the rules?

It's 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that one guy from Reddit couldn't find them in the book.

It's 100%-totally-and-utterly-no-takebacks-confirmed that no sarcasm or smart arse comments were included in this and the quoted post.

duplicate

I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

infinite_array wrote:I know it would most likely be a terrible idea, but I do enjoy the thought of SW players taking 8 HQs in a 2000+ point game.

In the old rules it would have been unstoppable to have 8 wolf lords of Thunder Wolves All kitted Out

EmperorsChampion wrote:I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

Instead of rerolling to hit (in 5th) you re-roll ones on to hit and to wound (in 6th).

Assuming the to hit/wound charts haven't changed (only saying that because I haven't seen them) it'll be a nerf on to-hit (on average vs MEQ) and a buff on to wound (on average vs MEQ).

rigeld2 wrote:

EmperorsChampion wrote:I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

Instead of rerolling to hit (in 5th) you re-roll ones on to hit and to wound (in 6th).

Assuming the to hit/wound charts haven't changed (only saying that because I haven't seen them) it'll be a nerf on to-hit (on average vs MEQ) and a buff on to wound (on average vs MEQ).

Ew...that rule does not sound fun at all. Oh well, looks like im packing Chaplains again.

tedurur wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Nothing at all points to this but i wish special characters were prohibited from joining an ally detachment.

Is a Great Unclean One a unique or special character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TBD wrote:

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

You dont need combat tactics to benefit from Vulkans abilities. So Assuming effects carry over between brotheers in arms taking Vulkan would indeed twin link meltas and flamers.

Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

Feels pretty lopsided so far towards Marine flavors vs my Eldar flavors. I think everything with Fleet got the short end of the stick with the new charge range, whereas everything that didn't have it has been effectively buffed. At best Fleet units break even if we are charging into difficult terrain, and if not it's less reliable than before. Everybody else basically gained an extra d6 analogous to the run move before a 6" charge. I don't think the ability to reroll makes up for that especially if it's an all dice or none situation.

The comparison made about Wyches having a lower cost than marines as far as Overwatch deaths is nonsense. I don't charge squads at other equally costed squads. I charge with what fits in a transport, which is 10 Wyches, or 9 and a Haem. Unless you are suggesting I march the ladies across the table without a transport before I charge? As someone mentioned, the 4+ dodge is only against CC attacks, and even 5+ armor doesn't fair well against Bolter Overwatch. 9 Bolters Rapid Fire kill 2 with FnP 3 without, and a Missile Launcher is Instant Death (S 8 to T 3) one sixth of the time which skirts FnP anyway. 2.166 dead Wyches is just shy of 25% of the 9 man squad with FnP and 3.166 is over 30% of the 10 man squad. I'm sorry but that is not negligible, that is a morale test if you killed that many on your turn. I can't see how it becomes negligible considering you get it for free, on my turn, when I am trying to charge you. This doesn't just hold true just for Wyches, any 5+ armor unit fares just as poorly, and more so without access to FnP.

The FnP changes also look to benefit marines more than Eldar. From my experience, FnP gave units with poor armor saves at least a chance to save against Bolters and the like that ignored their armor. It was the saving grace for T3 things like Termagants and Wyches. I understand it is a 5+ instead of a 4+ now, but the methods of circumventing have disappeared. Problem is, Eldar still die to plasma because it's Instant Death, Marines no longer have that problem. In addition we don't have wide access to Power Fists and Hammers and the like. In most cases the best we can get is a plain old Power Weapon. Case and point are my Incubi and Banshees. Also we don't have a proliferation of 3+ or 2+ armor save that you need to get past before the FnP comes into question.

So now it takes a S8 anti-vehicle shot to Ignore FnP on a normal Marine. I think the Scorpion Claw is the only fist I can think of available to either army. Did anyone catch whether or not Rending weapons count as a Power Weapon as they do in 5th? That would be icing on the cake. On the flipside though, it's not like there are any high volume of fire S6 and S7 weaponry that would Instant Death and ignore FnP on Eldar that armies tend to take in droves on their vehicles like Scatter Lasers, Multi Lasers, Psycannons, Assault Cannons, Autocannons, etc.

So if you are T4 with 3+ armor things look pretty slick but not so much for T3 with 5+. I don't want to sound like the boy who cried wolf, and I know I at least don't have the full rulebook in front of me for the big picture, but I can't say things look too exciting with what I've learned so far. And as an added note am I the only one disappointed that Rapid Fire weapons seem to get better every edition and Assault weapons are almost shooting yourself in the foot at this point? I remember being excited back in third that a unit had Assault weapons instead of rapid fire. Now it almost seems like a disappointment.

Edit: And does the new Jink save make Flickerfields completely redundant and useless assuming I can move more than 0'?

Griever wrote:
Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

I looked at this yesterday. It says all your units lose Combat Tactics, but all flamers, etc become twin-linked.

This is different wording from Shrike and others, who says that units with Combat Tactics trade it for another rule (like fleet).

Griever wrote:

tedurur wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Nothing at all points to this but i wish special characters were prohibited from joining an ally detachment.

Is a Great Unclean One a unique or special character?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TBD wrote:

Joey wrote:PCSs with 4 flamers and a power fist just became pretty damn potent.

Vulkan He'stan and his friends probably like this rule too.

I think his chapter tactics apply to potential "brothers in arms" allies as well?

(and Grey Hunters & Blood Angels assault squads, for example, can take 2 flamers per 10 guys)

Blood angels and Space wolves do not have the 'combat tactics' special rule, so they couldn't benefit from Vulkan anyway.

You dont need combat tactics to benefit from Vulkans abilities. So Assuming effects carry over between brotheers in arms taking Vulkan would indeed twin link meltas and flamers.

Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

No, No, No, That's not how it works

Read the entry again, All your marines exchange combat tactics making all of the weapons listed Twin Linked/Master Crafted meaning things without Combat Tactics such as vehicles are affected.

If you wanted it that way, providing they all count as 'One Army' as the Vulkan text says in 'Your Army' then indeed your allies would benefit from said ability.

I feel like GW boys just kept getting crushed by assault armies and then hobbled them with the new rules (Still waiting for actual rules to make the judgment call tho).

Where as the rest of the world is getting shot off the board with assault being more of an afterthought.

If FNP unlike currently won't work on Instant Death, along with nerfed cover saves, it sounds like GW have sold their last Tyranid Warriors and Raveners. That's basically a huge nerf to FNP overall, regardless if it gets a slight boost when used on MC's.

A shame, I really thought 6th ed would unlock the 75% of my codex that I can't deploy outside beer&pretzel games. Instead the viable pool of units got even smaller. Look how the mighty Genestealers have fallen.

As a Chaos player who used plague marines a lot i'd prefer it on a 4+ to a 5+ as I never seem to get shot by those low AP weapons and i'd still get my 4+ FnP against Flamestorm cannons and other AP3 weaponry.

This FnP is not going to help gaunts very much as they will die to a volume of attacks not power weapons anyway.

I have to agree, Angel_of_Rust. Though I don't think Assault weapons are getting weaker as much as assaulting in general is getting less desirable unless you are a unit of terminators or MeQs with FNP and a Power Fist.

Griever wrote:Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

Back at you.
All units lose Combat Tactics.
All TH are mastercrafted, etc.

It's not a trade out - hence the reason vehicles benefit as well.

EmperorsChampion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

EmperorsChampion wrote:I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

Instead of rerolling to hit (in 5th) you re-roll ones on to hit and to wound (in 6th).

Assuming the to hit/wound charts haven't changed (only saying that because I haven't seen them) it'll be a nerf on to-hit (on average vs MEQ) and a buff on to wound (on average vs MEQ).

Ew...that rule does not sound fun at all. Oh well, looks like im packing Chaplains again.

Remember, it applies to shooting as well. It's an overall buff counting the shooting buff.

N.I.B. wrote:If FNP unlike currently won't work on Instant Death, along with nerfed cover saves, it sounds like GW have sold their last Tyranid Warriors and Raveners. That's basically a huge nerf to FNP overall, regardless if it gets a slight boost when used on MC's.

A shame, I really thought 6th ed would unlock the 75% of my codex that I can't deploy outside beer&pretzel games. Instead the viable pool of units got even smaller. Look how the mighty Genestealers have fallen.

Yup, this is the exact same I am seeing for 6th for Tyranids. ID makes one third of the book useless, reserves kills another one third.

rigeld2 wrote:

Griever wrote:Yes, yes you do. Re-read his rule. You must exchange Combat Tactics for the twin-looked goodness, only Codex: Space Marine models have Combat Tactics.

Back at you.
All units lose Combat Tactics.
All TH are mastercrafted, etc.

It's not a trade out - hence the reason vehicles benefit as well.

EmperorsChampion wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

EmperorsChampion wrote:I want to know more info about this PE rule. It is either going to make or break my Templars. Or make them shooty...

Instead of rerolling to hit (in 5th) you re-roll ones on to hit and to wound (in 6th).

Assuming the to hit/wound charts haven't changed (only saying that because I haven't seen them) it'll be a nerf on to-hit (on average vs MEQ) and a buff on to wound (on average vs MEQ).

Ew...that rule does not sound fun at all. Oh well, looks like im packing Chaplains again.

Remember, it applies to shooting as well. It's an overall buff counting the shooting buff.

Well, I could see a reason to take bolter crusader squads now and more tactical terminators. Least it is not a complete nerf and just a slight change.

N.I.B. wrote:If FNP unlike currently won't work on Instant Death, along with nerfed cover saves, it sounds like GW have sold their last Tyranid Warriors and Raveners. That's basically a huge nerf to FNP overall, regardless if it gets a slight boost when used on MC's.

A shame, I really thought 6th ed would unlock the 75% of my codex that I can't deploy outside beer&pretzel games. Instead the viable pool of units got even smaller. Look how the mighty Genestealers have fallen.

If the bonesword rules don't get FAQ'd away, you better start sticking wings + swords on all your Warriors... as it stands Shrikes get a free I10 attack that ignores armour on the charge.

I also read something about Beasts ignoring terrain, which could effectively mean Raveners count has having assault grenades.

Just pointing out that the AMA dude on Reddit said that anything that acts like a power weapon but with special rules of its own still counts as AP3. So Boneswords are most likely AP3, not 2. Also, the Hammer of Wrath hits don't benefit from your weapons, they hit at base S like Impact Hits in fantasy; so you won't be ignoring armor saves with shrikes.

edited for quote:

[–]Rixitotal[S] 6 points 19 hours ago
no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

streamdragon wrote:Just pointing out that the AMA dude on Reddit said that anything that acts like a power weapon but with special rules of its own still counts as AP3. So Boneswords are most likely AP3, not 2. Also, the Hammer of Wrath hits don't benefit from your weapons, they hit at base S like Impact Hits in fantasy; so you won't be ignoring armor saves with shrikes.

edited for quote:

[–]Rixitotal[S] 6 points 19 hours ago
no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

Boneswords don't "count as" power weapons, they make your attacks ignore armor saves.
Minor but distinct difference.

But yeah, the FAQ/Errata will have to sort it out.

streamdragon wrote:Just pointing out that the AMA dude on Reddit said that anything that acts like a power weapon but with special rules of its own still counts as AP3. So Boneswords are most likely AP3, not 2. Also, the Hammer of Wrath hits don't benefit from your weapons, they hit at base S like Impact Hits in fantasy; so you won't be ignoring armor saves with shrikes.

edited for quote:

[–]Rixitotal[S] 6 points 19 hours ago
no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

I think Bone Swords aren't power weapons, but specifically ignore armour saves.

Ok going by the Battle report in White Dwarf - they didn't use special characters in their ally detachments. There is hope that Draigo wont' show up to every ultramarine battle. Hopefully someone on reddit will ask the man with the book if special/unique characters are prohibited from being in an allied detachment.

streamdragon wrote:Just pointing out that the AMA dude on Reddit said that anything that acts like a power weapon but with special rules of its own still counts as AP3. So Boneswords are most likely AP3, not 2. Also, the Hammer of Wrath hits don't benefit from your weapons, they hit at base S like Impact Hits in fantasy; so you won't be ignoring armor saves with shrikes.

edited for quote:

[–]Rixitotal[S] 6 points 19 hours ago
no, if it has its own special rules but counts as a power weapon its the same but AP3. again, FAQ should sort it.

xttz wrote:The rules for Boneswords in their codex (which take precedence) state: No armour saves may be taken against wounds inflicted in close combat by a Tyranid with a Bonesword...

To me this means two things:
1) They're not power weapons, they just ignore armour saves. Meaning they're effectively AP2 but without the damage bonus to vehicles.
2) As the rule applies to all Tyranid close combat attacks (RAW), it means that Shrikes with boneswords will also ignore armour for their I10 'Hammer of Wrath' attacks. I'll just let that one sink in for a minute.

"counts as power weapon" is not the same as "no armour saves may be taken"
It probably needs a FAQ, but until I see one I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about this!

Ovion wrote:I think Bone Swords aren't power weapons, but specifically ignore armour saves.

ib4 FAQs say Warscythes are AP2 but Bone Swords are AP3

tetrisphreak wrote:Ok going by the Battle report in White Dwarf - they didn't use special characters in their ally detachments. There is hope that Draigo wont' show up to every ultramarine battle. Hopefully someone on reddit will ask the man with the book if special/unique characters are prohibited from being in an allied detachment.

I thought Draigo allied the Guard?

kirsanth wrote:Am I the only one playing Tyranids that takes the next bit of spite in line?
Mostly it is ok because it only indirectly inhibits us playing, right?

I mean, if you are awesome, things still go well!
Most people just get kicked since they are down.

A better question Kirsanth...are you and I the only ones still playing Tyranids

lord_blackfang wrote:

Ovion wrote:I think Bone Swords aren't power weapons, but specifically ignore armour saves.

ib4 FAQs say Warscythes are AP2 but Bone Swords are AP3

... Yeah. I can see that happening. No sarcasm.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Ok going by the Battle report in White Dwarf - they didn't use special characters in their ally detachments. There is hope that Draigo wont' show up to every ultramarine battle. Hopefully someone on reddit will ask the man with the book if special/unique characters are prohibited from being in an allied detachment.

I thought Draigo allied the Guard?

CSM allied a deamon detachment, IG allied a GK detachment. The Daemon HQ was a Great Unclean One, the GK HQ was a GK Librarian in Terminator armor.

What i'm HOPING for is that special characters cannot be taken as allies, no matter what your main codex is. It wouldn't prevent all the tomfoolery but it would keep Draigo, Njal, Mephiston, etc from showing up at every battle ever.

Feels pretty lopsided so far towards Marine flavors vs my Eldar flavors. I think everything with Fleet got the short end of the stick with the new charge range, whereas everything that didn't have it has been effectively buffed. At best Fleet units break even if we are charging into difficult terrain, and if not it's less reliable than before. Everybody else basically gained an extra d6 analogous to the run move before a 6" charge. I don't think the ability to reroll makes up for that especially if it's an all dice or none situation.

You get to re-roll your run move, and one die from the 2D6 charge. So you get movement, rerolled run dice, and a rerolled low die for charging.

wyomingfox wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Am I the only one playing Tyranids that takes the next bit of spite in line?
Mostly it is ok because it only indirectly inhibits us playing, right?

I mean, if you are awesome, things still go well!
Most people just get kicked since they are down.

A better question Kirsanth...are you and I the only ones still playing Tyranids

Am I chopped liver?

Thinking about it, Preferred enemy will be the filth with Overwatch when GKs play Daemons, Bloodletters charge and i get more hits and wounds, yes please! And it will ensure my hammers do Justice.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Am I the only one playing Tyranids that takes the next bit of spite in line?
Mostly it is ok because it only indirectly inhibits us playing, right?

I mean, if you are awesome, things still go well!
Most people just get kicked since they are down.

A better question Kirsanth...are you and I the only ones still playing Tyranids

Am I chopped liver?

There is only one Tyranid player. The rest of us are extensions of The One Hive Mind.

rigeld2 wrote:Boneswords don't "count as" power weapons, they make your attacks ignore armor saves.
Minor but distinct difference.
But yeah, the FAQ/Errata will have to sort it out.

Ovion wrote:I think Bone Swords aren't power weapons, but specifically ignore armour saves.

xttz wrote:counts as power weapon" is not the same as "no armour saves may be taken"
It probably needs a FAQ, but until I see one I'm going to be cautiously optimistic about this!

I agree the FAQ will be the final arbiter, but from what we've seen the melee weapons that are AP2 are the ones that reduce your Init. to 1: power fists, power axe, thunder hammer. Boneswords don't fall into this category. Not definitive, obviously, but it does imply a pattern.

lord_blackfang wrote:

Ovion wrote:I think Bone Swords aren't power weapons, but specifically ignore armour saves.

ib4 FAQs say Warscythes are AP2 but Bone Swords are AP3

You know it's going to happen... you just know it.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Feels pretty lopsided so far towards Marine flavors vs my Eldar flavors. I think everything with Fleet got the short end of the stick with the new charge range, whereas everything that didn't have it has been effectively buffed. At best Fleet units break even if we are charging into difficult terrain, and if not it's less reliable than before. Everybody else basically gained an extra d6 analogous to the run move before a 6" charge. I don't think the ability to reroll makes up for that especially if it's an all dice or none situation.

You get to re-roll your run move, and one die from the 2D6 charge. So you get movement, rerolled run dice, and a rerolled low die for charging.

It was actually confirmed that you can either run, or assault, but not both. Fleet only allows a re-roll of the run or assault dice. Hazy on whether you can re-roll just one of the 2d6 for assault, or both of them (i've heard both).

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Feels pretty lopsided so far towards Marine flavors vs my Eldar flavors. I think everything with Fleet got the short end of the stick with the new charge range, whereas everything that didn't have it has been effectively buffed. At best Fleet units break even if we are charging into difficult terrain, and if not it's less reliable than before. Everybody else basically gained an extra d6 analogous to the run move before a 6" charge. I don't think the ability to reroll makes up for that especially if it's an all dice or none situation.

You get to re-roll your run move, and one die from the 2D6 charge. So you get movement, rerolled run dice, and a rerolled low die for charging.

I'd say the biggest hit to Fleet is the loss of charging after the run.

streamdragon wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

Ovion wrote:I think Bone Swords aren't power weapons, but specifically ignore armour saves.

ib4 FAQs say Warscythes are AP2 but Bone Swords are AP3

You know it's going to happen... you just know it.

"MATTHEW! GO TO YOUR ROOM, YOU'VE BEEN A BAD BAD BOY MATTHEW!"

"But all i wanted was to make my robots awesome"

So Fleet is overall worse than before on average.
5th: 6" move, 3" run, 6" assault = 21" average threat range
6th: 6" move, 9" assault (depending on how you re-roll, but we'll go with this) = 15" average threat range.

Added to the fact that if you have to leave cover there's zero guarantee you won't fail the charge and get shot off the board next turn.

edit: leaving my fail there for everyone to see and mock me for.

Corrected:
5th: 6" move, 3" run, 6" assault = 15" average threat range
6th: 6" move, 9" assault (depending on how you re-roll, but we'll go with this) = 15" average threat range.

I still think Fleet is worse in 6th than it was in 5th - assaults are less reliable, and you have to commit to being out of cover to attempt the charge.
In 5th if the run roll was low enough you just didn't bother leaving cover.

rigeld2 wrote:So Fleet is overall worse than before on average.
5th: 6" move, 3" run, 6" assault = 21" average threat range
6th: 6" move, 9" assault (depending on how you re-roll, but we'll go with this) = 15" average threat range.

Added to the fact that if you have to leave cover there's zero guarantee you won't fail the charge and get shot off the board next turn.

6+3+6 = 21???

Both your examples add up to 15". you've proven yourself wrong in a single post. I say to you, sir: fail.

Edit 2: Double post resolved, original post eaten.

Hormagaunts really lose out, since they already get 3 dice take the best for Run, Fleet only really helps them during charges now. (which they can no longer do after a run...)

Thanks GW, I was looking for an excuse to not put my gaunts together. Thanks bro.

rigeld2 wrote:So Fleet is overall worse than before on average.
5th: 6" move, 3" run, 6" assault = 21" average threat range
6th: 6" move, 9" assault (depending on how you re-roll, but we'll go with this) = 15" average threat range.

Quoted for posterity.

6+3+6=21
6+9=15

... Apparently I fail at math. I have no idea how I added another 6" in there.

Oops. Editing.

tetrisphreak wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So Fleet is overall worse than before on average.
5th: 6" move, 3" run, 6" assault = 21" average threat range
6th: 6" move, 9" assault (depending on how you re-roll, but we'll go with this) = 15" average threat range.

Added to the fact that if you have to leave cover there's zero guarantee you won't fail the charge and get shot off the board next turn.

6+3+6 = 21???

Both your examples add up to 15". you've proven yourself wrong in a single post. I say to you, sir: fail.

Haha, although he has a point when it comes to Wyches.

12" move, 2" Disembark, 3" fleet, 6 inch assault. =23"

6" move, 6" Disembark, 9" Charge 21"

Anyone know if there is a confirmed list of allies? As in, who can ally with who.

I remember seeing one a while back, but I'm not sure if that one was just a rumor or not.

...more specifically, anyone know who Dark Eldar can ally with?

Zakriv wrote:Anyone know if there is a confirmed list of allies? As in, who can ally with who.

I remember seeing one a while back, but I'm not sure if that one was just a rumor or not.

...more specifically, anyone know who Dark Eldar can ally with?

It's in the first post for posterity I believe.

Someone else posted a chart that says what I was trying to say (except they didn't fail basic math).

Zakriv wrote:Anyone know if there is a confirmed list of allies? As in, who can ally with who.

I remember seeing one a while back, but I'm not sure if that one was just a rumor or not.

...more specifically, anyone know who Dark Eldar can ally with?

Black Templars, Chaos Daemons, Chos Space Marines, Eldar, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Orks, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Space Wolves and Tau Empire

Fetterkey wrote:1. Buffs to psykers. Tyranids can field what, 15 psykers in an army? Maybe more? They commonly field five or more-- more psykers than any other army.

If we took 9 Zoes, 2 HQ, and 6 Genestealer Broods with Broodlords, we would max out at 17 Psychers. We would also be tabled by turn 2. Most Tyranid players don't run Zoes or Broodlords due to thier expense. The most psychers you typically see is 5 and that is with Tervigon Spam lists. Otherwise 2-3 is more common. You are probably thinking of Grey Knights .

Well, jump infantry moves faster.

12" move, 9" assault. Bonus 3 inches.

Does anybody remember how beasts move? They're probably slower now.

used to be 12" move, Fleet, I believe?

Edit; according to the AMA, they're still 12" move with Fleet.

So on average it should be about the same I guess?

used to be 12" move, 3" fleet, 6" charge for 21"

Now 12" move, ~9" charge using the fleet re-roll for 21" still?

It's just that their variance has gone down:

Old: 18 + 1d6
New: 12 + (2d6 reroll lowest die)

Haha, wow, that's an expansive list.

So can allies be used in a normal game? Say, my buddy and I playing a 1500 point game or something. I'm guessing the 'Unholy Alliance' thing means you have to roll on a chart or something like that to determine if your forces start freaking the hell out.

used to be 12" move, Fleet, I believe?

They move 6"+D6"+12" in 5th but since in 6th everyone assaults 2D6" I'm just curious if beasts are identical to infantry with fleet now.

Therion wrote:Well, jump infantry moves faster.

12" move, 9" assault. Bonus 3 inches.

Does anybody remember how beasts move? They're probably slower now.

12" move, fleet, 2d6" charge. Ignores penalty for charging through terrain (3d6" drop highest).

edit - so that makes them 2-3" slower than now, but more maneuverable thanks to a 12" move. Baron sathonyx can use his skyboard with a beast unit now.

12" move, fleet, 2d6" charge. Ignores penalty for charging through terrain (3d6" drop highest).

So that's the exact same distance as (new) jump infantry, except they ignore terrain when charging and jump infantry ignores it when moving?

Either way, everything else either stayed the same or was nerfed except jump infantry which got better.

Therion wrote:

12" move, fleet, 2d6" charge. Ignores penalty for charging through terrain (3d6" drop highest).

So that's the exact same distance as (new) jump infantry, except they ignore terrain when charging and jump infantry ignores it when moving?

That sounds right, if the facts i've read are accurate.

edit to include quote:

Calvary/ Beast movements and assaults info please

[–]Rixitotal[S] 1 point 42 seconds ago
move 12. are fleet. cav arnt slowed by terrain but counts as dangerous. beasts ignore terrain altogether!

On the bright side, we now get to fire our pistols before charging!

beasts ignore terrain altogether!

I've discovered that if a rule change could possibly benefit Necrons in any way, in 6th edition it will.

Necrons release.
Community: "Wow - decent codex - not overpowered but has some strong combos and works well overall. Good job GW!"
GW: LOLNEWEDITION
Community: "Um. So everything we just said about the Necron codex? Yeah. What were you thinking?"

wyomingfox wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:1. Buffs to psykers. Tyranids can field what, 15 psykers in an army? Maybe more? They commonly field five or more-- more psykers than any other army.

If we took 9 Zoes, 2 HQ, and 6 Genestealer Broods with Broodlords, we would max out at 17 Psychers. We would also be tabled by turn 2. Most Tyranid players don't run Zoes or Broodlords due to thier expense. The most psychers you typically see is 5 and that is with Tervigon Spam lists. Otherwise 2-3 is more common. You are probably thinking of Grey Knights .

But I I took 2 Tyrants as HQs, a full brood of zoes, and a tervigon as a troop, thats 6

Quark wrote:Edit: double post?

Dakka is making ghosted double posts lately, has been for the entire weekend.

To your comment about shooting yourself out of assault range --it happens in 5e all the time. There are plenty of instances where i say "no, i don't want to shoot with that unit; i'd rather make sure i have range to assault."

Quark wrote:

Baronyu wrote:On the bright side, we now get to fire our pistols before charging!

I'll laugh the first time an assault unit shoots itself out of range. Unless it's me.

My guess is the assault phase would be a mini game turn.
1) Assualt unit
2) Charging unit fires pistols, charged unit overwatch
3) Start chopping things to bits

tetrisphreak wrote:

Quark wrote:Edit: double post?

Dakka is making ghosted double posts lately, has been for the entire weekend.

To your comment about shooting yourself out of assault range --it happens in 5e all the time. There are plenty of instances where i say "no, i don't want to shoot with that unit; i'd rather make sure i have range to assault."

A least allocation makes it less likely with the prised melta at the front.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Quark wrote:Edit: double post?

Dakka is making ghosted double posts lately, has been for the entire weekend.

To your comment about shooting yourself out of assault range --it happens in 5e all the time. There are plenty of instances where i say "no, i don't want to shoot with that unit; i'd rather make sure i have range to assault."

A least allocation makes it less likely with the prised melta at the front.

Yeah meltas and flamers will still find their way to the fronts of squads. I foresee a lot of "Look out!" saves being taken on models holding the prized special weaponry.

With the new remove casualties from the front, I'm predicting the fall of the flamer (and liquefier, and anything else flamer like). The only reason you would NEED a flame template is if you play a redeemer or pyrovore or some unit thats either vehicle or pure flamer.

Flamers can still work fine not in the front of the unit. It just take some care with placement.

Actually, if we count the shooting we now get before an assault, what will the mathammer says about the wyches' chance? Assuming we're sending 10 wyches against a full 10 tactical squad...

Splinter pistol x 10 - 6.67 hits - 3.33 wounds - 2.22 dead marines after save

Amateur mathammer there, hope I've done it right... Now, I was gonna do the death count for wyches next, but my lack of experience is hurting me right now, as I have not an idea what a typical tact squad would take at 10 men, I'm assuming a flamer is mostly standard now with overwatch... So, if anyone could be so nice to finish this death count for me I'd be a very happy dark eldar...

Fetterkey wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Burna Boys are better shot down anyway.

Quite. In most games, Overwatch-- like Snap Fire-- will mean nothing but perhaps a few lucky hits over the course of a game, and the few units that are dangerous when overwatching can be dealt with by means other than assault.

It does however do away with the ridiculous level of abstraction involved with your unit just standing there, presumably discussing the merits of diesel or petrol engines in cars, while the enemy just charges in to hack you to bits!

It's definitely one of the better looking changes in this edition I think.

Pacific wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Burna Boys are better shot down anyway.

Quite. In most games, Overwatch-- like Snap Fire-- will mean nothing but perhaps a few lucky hits over the course of a game, and the few units that are dangerous when overwatching can be dealt with by means other than assault.

It does however do away with the ridiculous level of abstraction involved with your unit just standing there, presumably discussing the merits of diesel or petrol engines in cars, while the enemy just charges in to hack you to bits!

It's definitely one of the better looking changes in this edition I think.

Does it really do away with the abstraction though? OH NO IM A WELL DRILLED AND EXPERIENCED SOLDIER AND THE ENEMY ARE 30 METERS AWAY FROM MEEEEE!!! LETS NOT HIT THEM! INSTEAD IM GOING TO NOT HIT A BARN DOOR SOMEWHERE FAR ABOVE THEIR HEADS!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree its better though

I don't think many players will stick their special weapons in the front. Even with Look out Sir rules, any chance of losing the useful model is to much of a chance to be worth taking.

Its definitely a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of system for flamers/melta. You want to be close so you can get range. The problem is, if you decide to stay close, you either will be a) vulnerable to return fire because you're in the front rank or b). vulnerable to blast because all of your guys are clumped up closely at the front of the squad's position.

I personally like the rule, because I can foresee it driving people to make manueverable armies. Right now, its all about volume of fire attempting to make the special weapon guys take wounds and fail saves. If casualities are directional, it will make the game about manuvering. Bikes, Scourges, infiltrators, etc all become very good at shooting squads; either risking the guy's special weapon or forcing him to position it awkwardly.

Did anyone find out what the force weapon ap is?

Just wondering what options to take on my Grey Knight Terminators before I put them together.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Did anyone find out what the force weapon ap is?

Just wondering what options to take on my Grey Knight Terminators before I put them together.

Magnets!

I personally like the rule

I like the rule too because the whole 'hidden super weapon that always dies last' system has only ever benefited a handful of armies. Many specialist armies have the entire unit armed with the same expensive weaponry and always lose something of value when they lose a model. The ablative wounds concept is imbalanced because it doesn't treat everyone fairly.

Baronyu wrote:Actually, if we count the shooting we now get before an assault, what will the mathammer says about the wyches' chance? Assuming we're sending 10 wyches against a full 10 tactical squad...

Splinter pistol x 10 - 6.67 hits - 3.33 wounds - 2.22 dead marines after save

Amateur mathammer there, hope I've done it right... Now, I was gonna do the death count for wyches next, but my lack of experience is hurting me right now, as I have not an idea what a typical tact squad would take at 10 men, I'm assuming a flamer is mostly standard now with overwatch... So, if anyone could be so nice to finish this death count for me I'd be a very happy dark eldar...

Interesting, I never knew Space Marines failed 2 thirds of their 3+ saves on average.

Pacific wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Burna Boys are better shot down anyway.

Quite. In most games, Overwatch-- like Snap Fire-- will mean nothing but perhaps a few lucky hits over the course of a game, and the few units that are dangerous when overwatching can be dealt with by means other than assault.

It does however do away with the ridiculous level of abstraction involved with your unit just standing there, presumably discussing the merits of diesel or petrol engines in cars, while the enemy just charges in to hack you to bits!

It's definitely one of the better looking changes in this edition I think.

You mean the abstraction where there was an entire section of the assault rules titled "Defenders React" which described the reaction that defenders had when assaulted which was to prepare properly for the ensuing combat and get to grips with their opponent.

Not to mention the entire turn structure is an abstraction for simultaneous events, so what you did while they charged you was shoot at whoever you shot in your previous turn.

I wouldn't mind this Overwatch change so much if it were done in lieu of the defenders fighting in the ensuing melee, not only does that make a lot more sense than what we have now, but it gives the shooty armies their defense against melee without skewing the balance of melee away from specialists and more towards all rounder units.

What I'm really dreading though, is when units with Counter Attack are still allowed to take their overwatch shooting, explain to me why some supposedly ferocious Space Wolves who leap headlong at their attackers should get to unleash an extra volley of bolter fire while doing so but my assaulting units aren't allowed to fire their weapons during the assault phase.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Did anyone find out what the force weapon ap is?

Just wondering what options to take on my Grey Knight Terminators before I put them together.

I've got a bid of Sad Face Sydrome, I love Power Armoured GKs and they've taken a real hit, but now they could have a 4+ Inv in combat, Although i'd take Termie killing power over a 4+ inv any day

Charge at a squadron of three Punisher LRBs w/ Heavy Bolters and Heavy Stubbers..... watch unit get torn apart with SnapFire

Therion wrote:

I personally like the rule

I like the rule too because the whole 'hidden super weapon that always dies last' system has only ever benefited a handful of armies. Many specialist armies have the entire unit armed with the same expensive weaponry and always lose something of value when they lose a model. The ablative wounds concept is imbalanced because it doesn't treat everyone fairly.

I agree with you on the fact it doesn't treat eveyone fairly.. but just not in the way you are thinking.

When I think about alibative wounds, I think about one of the worst troop choices in the game... the SM tact squad. You are paying for... and MUST pay for, 8 very expensive alibative wounds.

I don't think any army truly LIKES alibative wounds. I don't think any ork player ever said "hmm, wish I had some normal boyz mixed in with my burnaz," or a DE player that didn't take 3-4 trueborn with blasters with zero alibatives.

So in my opinion, the new system actually treats these sort of alibative wound more fairly because now you know (provided you positioned properly) the enemy MUST kill 4 space marines before he gets your melta, rather than wound wrapping to get him. In my opinion is that before, it was somewhat unfair because many players HAD to take these lousy alibative wounds, that didn't want to take them at all.

edit: double post strikes again in this thread.

edit: and now my original quote/post disappeared.

N.I.B. wrote:
If FNP unlike currently won't work on Instant Death, along with nerfed cover saves, it sounds like GW have sold their last Tyranid Warriors and Raveners. That's basically a huge nerf to FNP overall, regardless if it gets a slight boost when used on MC's.

A shame, I really thought 6th ed would unlock the 75% of my codex that I can't deploy outside beer&pretzel games. Instead the viable pool of units got even smaller. Look how the mighty Genestealers have fallen.

Last I checked, FNP doesn't work versus ID currently so that's not a change. You're trading a 4+ that is negated by ap1-2 and power weapons for an otherwise always there 5+ (ID notwithstanding of course).

As for genestealers, I suspect their viability would hinge on the assault into cover rules. Does anyone know if you're still going last if you don't have frag grenade equivalents?

Drunkspleen wrote:

Pacific wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:You know, if your Wyches assault 10 Marines, you take a mighty 1.48 casualties with Feel no Pain up-- not exactly a devastating blow. As I said earlier, the impact of Overwatch is vastly overblown. Unless you're charging Burna Boyz, it's not something to really worry about.

Burna Boys are better shot down anyway.

Quite. In most games, Overwatch-- like Snap Fire-- will mean nothing but perhaps a few lucky hits over the course of a game, and the few units that are dangerous when overwatching can be dealt with by means other than assault.

It does however do away with the ridiculous level of abstraction involved with your unit just standing there, presumably discussing the merits of diesel or petrol engines in cars, while the enemy just charges in to hack you to bits!

It's definitely one of the better looking changes in this edition I think.

You mean the abstraction where there was an entire section of the assault rules titled "Defenders React" which described the reaction that defenders had when assaulted which was to prepare properly for the ensuing combat and get to grips with their opponent.

Not to mention the entire turn structure is an abstraction for simultaneous events, so what you did while they charged you was shoot at whoever you shot in your previous turn.

I wouldn't mind this Overwatch change so much if it were done in lieu of the defenders fighting in the ensuing melee, not only does that make a lot more sense than what we have now, but it gives the shooty armies their defense against melee without skewing the balance of melee away from specialists and more towards all rounder units.

What I'm really dreading though, is when units with Counter Attack are still allowed to take their overwatch shooting, explain to me why some supposedly ferocious Space Wolves who leap headlong at their attackers should get to unleash an extra volley of bolter fire while doing so but my assaulting units aren't allowed to fire their weapons during the assault phase.

If you had to choose between full shots at standard BS, or CC attacks, then instead of would make sense. Otherwise at BS1 99% of the time you'd be better off just trying to hit back anyway.

Now I wouldn't mind that either, as it would be more beneficial to my Tau, but hey.

When I think about alibative wounds, I think about one of the worst troop choices in the game... the SM tact squad

I think Grey Hunters or Blood Angel Assault Squads, some of the best troop choices in the game, that can spend 5 or 10 points for anti-tank versatility that in 5th edition stays with the squad untill the very last model.

Anyone got the new pen chart?

Drunkspleen wrote:

Baronyu wrote:Actually, if we count the shooting we now get before an assault, what will the mathammer says about the wyches' chance? Assuming we're sending 10 wyches against a full 10 tactical squad...

Splinter pistol x 10 - 6.67 hits - 3.33 wounds - 2.22 dead marines after save

Amateur mathammer there, hope I've done it right... Now, I was gonna do the death count for wyches next, but my lack of experience is hurting me right now, as I have not an idea what a typical tact squad would take at 10 men, I'm assuming a flamer is mostly standard now with overwatch... So, if anyone could be so nice to finish this death count for me I'd be a very happy dark eldar...

Interesting, I never knew Space Marines failed 2 thirds of their 3+ saves on average.

Oops, I did say it's noob mathammer!

So..hmm.. 1.11 dead after save? So... I don't think the death count would be that different for the wyches with only 1 dead marine then...

Mohoc wrote:Anyone got the new pen chart?

Yes, we've hidden in this thread's 80+ pages. Have fun finding it!

rigeld2 wrote:Necrons release.
Community: "Wow - decent codex - not overpowered but has some strong combos and works well overall. Good job GW!"
GW: LOLNEWEDITION
Community: "Um. So everything we just said about the Necron codex? Yeah. What were you thinking?"

This did make me giggle and nod a bit.

Too early to tell of course, but Necrons are looking incredibly strong. Both as an army and allies.

Anyone know if you can only use Allies if you are playing 2v2, or can it be used in casual 1v1 games? Or do both you and your opponent have to be using them? And does 'Unholy Alliance' mean that you'll probably have to make a sort of check to see if your allies start beating on your own dudes?

DarthDiggler wrote:I'm pretty sure most major North American tournaments will allow allies as some army books are unplayable without them. It's really not that bad in practice.

As for the Necron Phalanx being back, I thought losing an assault and getting the whole unit run down killed that unit? Are negative modifiers to morale in a losing assault gone? Otherwise I don't see 12 warriors and a Phaeron being around very long on the tabletop.

maybe not on foot, but a Ghost Ark filled with warriors and a couple of Lanceteks/StormTeks is now an anti-tank gunboat.

Zakriv wrote:Anyone know if you can only use Allies if you are playing 2v2, or can it be used in casual 1v1 games? Or do both you and your opponent have to be using them? And does 'Unholy Alliance' mean that you'll probably have to make a sort of check to see if your allies start beating on your own dudes?

Everything from the 'confirmed' says that the default list includes allies for every game.
So 1v1 pickup games at 1500pts.
Of course, every allied unit takes points away from your main army.

Battle Brothers = Work as a single unified force, ICs can join allied units, allied ICs can join main force units etc.
Allies of Convenience = Basically bringing 2 seperate armies, that work independantly.
Desperate Allies = If any allied units are within 6" of regular units at the start of a turn, they need to roll a D6 and on a roll of a 1, they just sit there and do nothing.

Ovion wrote:

Zakriv wrote:Anyone know if you can only use Allies if you are playing 2v2, or can it be used in casual 1v1 games? Or do both you and your opponent have to be using them? And does 'Unholy Alliance' mean that you'll probably have to make a sort of check to see if your allies start beating on your own dudes?

Everything from the 'confirmed' says that the default list includes allies for every game.
So 1v1 pickup games at 1500pts.
Of course, every allied unit takes points away from your main army.

Battle Brothers = Work as a single unified force, ICs can join allied units, allied ICs can join main force units etc.
Allies of Convenience = Basically bringing 2 seperate armies, that work independantly.
Desperate Allies = If any allied units are within 6" of regular units at the start of a turn, they need to roll a D6 and on a roll of a 1, they just sit there and do nothing.

That is AWESOME, thank you.

I've been dying to use my Khorne Berzerkers, their Land Raider, and my Chaos Lord SO BAD, but they're the only CSM models I have. Now I can field them with my Dark Eldar!

I figure it's a nice trade off. Slaves for Commorragh, and Blood for the Blood God.

(Also bummer that if I face an army that can reliably glance a Land Raiders, that's not gonna go over well.)

...

...

(Though generally this idea is silly to begin with, BUT I CAN DO IT AND THAT'S WHAT MATTERS.)