Monster Rain wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:It goes up and down for me. If I wasn't the only one contributing gay sex topics to the OT forum I'd be a lot more interested

Oh come on. There's plenty of Dark Eldar discussion! That's not close enough?

Don't inspire me Gay club dark eldar coming soon. Glow sticks and assless chaps all around!

Exactly.

What exactly are "ass-less chaps"? I mean chaps are naturally ass-less. Is it like a double-negative where instead of chaps you're wearing leather pants? Is it like having the butt cut out of whatever you're wearing with your chaps?

A quick googling can answer that question really quickly for you

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A quick googling can answer that question really quickly for you

Not from work!!

Just saying. . .

Monster Rain wrote:That is a very demonic gaze.

It's like he can see my soul.

And your undies.

Its a good thing he's really, really nearsighted. ;P

kirsanth wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A quick googling can answer that question really quickly for you

Not from work!!

Just saying. . .

You don't want your boss catching you looking up Ass-Less Chaps anyway.

On the other hand, if he's into it, you might get a raise.

Monster Rain wrote:On the other hand, if he's into it, you might get a raise.

I live and work on the other side of the bay.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Rant mode: OFF
GOM mode: OFF
Bedtime Horlicks malty drink: ON
Comfy Slippers: ON
and relax...

this is going in my sig to remind me lol

thanks

Scott-S6 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Just because I find someone to be an arrogant jerk doesnt mean that he doesnt know the game. Thats not hypocrisy.
Also, if you read that post in it's entirety, if I remember correctly, the main point I was trying to make was that people were complaining about a "Free Tournament" with prize support.
...but I see what you're doing...going off topic and attempting to smear to start an arguement. My hypocrisy or lack thereof is not the subject here. Sorry, not gonna bite. Please drive thru.

And yet again you fail to address the point entirely. Nothing in your post actually addressed what I pointed out.

You complain that someone says "Those armies are full of fail" - that's horrible and out of line.
Yet now you're saying that people should be allowed to say things like "that idea is friggin stupid"?

Why the sudden about face?

Deadshane1 wrote:Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.

Deadshane1 wrote:I was reading one attendee's list breakdown of opponents this morning on a site, and the peanut gallery that responded to the post had nothing to say about the opponents but things like...."Was he drunk when he made that list?" "Those armies are full of fail" "f&*kinc stupid" ect, you get the idea. How nice.

If I admit to hypocrisy...will you go away?

You know, so we can continue discussing what this thread is really about?

No-one is perfect.

I would like to hear constructive suggestions from people rather than general rants about how bad everything is, or backbiting.

Look at it as a marketing exercise:

1. Where are we? (Is there a problem?)
2. Where do we want to be? (What will the site look like without this problem?)
3. How do we get there? (Workable suggestions for addressing the problem?)

Personally...
We need a bit stricter moderation in the Background forums. Either that or stickied threads with a "FAQ" of the more common questions.

"X universe vs Y universe" or "Y universe took Z from X universe!" threads need to be kicked to off-topic or just locked immediately and the poster warned. They're pointless exercises in stupidity and fanboyism, and almost always they're created as flamebait.

Kanluwen wrote:"X universe vs Y universe" or "Y universe took Z from X universe!" threads need to be kicked to off-topic or just locked immediately and the poster warned.

This sounds harsh but it's true. Such threads have no place in either 40k Background or 40k Discussion.

Oh, also the "The Emperah's plans is coming to fruition!111!!1" or "Horus did the hershey because the emprah told him too!" threads need to be put in off-topic, or given the same treatment.

No offense to the people who make those threads...but they're really stupid ideas, usually full of misspellings and asinine examples of someone playing a round of "Jump to Conclusions!".

Although I hate the threads you just made examples of, Kanluwen, I think they do currently qualify to be in the Background section. ("This is why we can't have nice things.") That list goes on and on, by the way: Are There Female Space Marines? Are the Tau Good or Evil? What Happened to the Missing Legions?

Killkrazy:

1) Form a team of trusted posters.

2) Have them write/create weekly 'content' for the site. You've lost a lot of this to personal blogs, BOLS, etc.

Content does not have to be written, it can be someone cruising the threads, posting a list of articles of interest:

Culling all the good 'how to threads' into one easy-to-find article.
Highlight the "Battle Report of the Week".
Choose an Army and Tactic, and post the thoughts of the internet.
Etc.

Content Drives Membership.

--Brian

I think dakka is still a good forum. Like most things on the internet it takes some searching to find what you were really looking for. I just try to avoid the army list section.

I posted my army and asked what people thought its main weakness; all it got in response was what different units i should take. I was asking what do you think of my army, not change my army.

I assume a lot of the lists are to be used exclusively on vassal?

If we are going to talk about more strict moderation, then I personally would LOVE to see it used to the extent that you drop the hammer more on people who constantly:

A: Spam (in all its forms)
B: Argue for no good reason
C: Troll

The threads that I made examples of are 9/10 times, full of misspellings, misunderstandings of a quotation, or some harebrained idea that comes to someone in a moment of idiocy(like when you get really drunk and think you can in fact sled down the stairs in a clothes hamper).
They belong in off-topic or general discussion, or just need to be something that is a warning provided the person obviously just made their post without really thinking too much about it, but just to make a post.

The Tau and Missing Legions ones can easily go into a sticky with an explanation("The Tau aren't really good or evil. They just...are." and "The Missing Legions are missing. That's why they're called that, in addition to being a holdover from when GW had a way for you to bring about your own Legion for the background without really having to worry about fiddling too much with the game's canon.").

The phrase "female space marines" should be put into the word filter, frankly. It's flamebait and people damned well know it.

I can't believe, 11 pages in, people who ought to know better are seriously complaining that being allowed to act like jerks will improve the site.

It's just going to chase people off. I know if when I first posted questions, if I had gotten learn2read type answers, I just would have left.

Instead of saying "help me save DakkaDakka" perhaps the question should have started with "Does DakkaDakka need to be saved"? I know Dash that you think that this whole thread was a mod's trolling response to your thread, but honestly I think this should have been the first question. I think a lot of people don't agree with you that the site is getting worse. I agree that the moderation is occasionally uneven, but I don't think it's particularly bad, an I certainly, if asked "what's wrong with Dakka Dakka" I certainly wouldn't respond "Moderators". I'd probably reply "Nothing, really".

In my opinion, Dakka has the best support of any of the 40k related websites I read, has the most supportive members of the hobby, and a very friendly environment.

The moderators here are volunteer, and I think they do an excellent job. When you consider bang for your buck, it's out of the park.

So, rather than complain about any small details that may be bothering me, I'd like to thank the Mods for their hard work, and ask them if there is anything I can help to do to improve the community here.

Note, I will be joining the ranks of the DCM on my next pay check in about two weeks. I've just had to get a few personal things taken care of first. So I am quite willing to put my money where my mouth is.

Kanluwen wrote:Personally...
We need a bit stricter moderation in the Background forums. Either that or stickied threads with a "FAQ" of the more common questions.

"X universe vs Y universe" or "Y universe took Z from X universe!" threads need to be kicked to off-topic or just locked immediately and the poster warned. They're pointless exercises in stupidity and fanboyism, and almost always they're created as flamebait.

Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"X universe vs Y universe" or "Y universe took Z from X universe!" threads need to be kicked to off-topic or just locked immediately and the poster warned.

This sounds harsh but it's true. Such threads have no place in either 40k Background or 40k Discussion.

Why?

Heffling wrote:In my opinion, Dakka has the best support of any of the 40k related websites I read, has the most supportive members of the hobby, and a very friendly environment.

The moderators here are volunteer, and I think they do an excellent job. When you consider bang for your buck, it's out of the park.

So, rather than complain about any small details that may be bothering me, I'd like to thank the Mods for their hard work, and ask them if there is anything I can help to do to improve the community here.

Note, I will be joining the ranks of the DCM on my next pay check in about two weeks. I've just had to get a few personal things taken care of first. So I am quite willing to put my money where my mouth is.

While well worded, you really have not been her long enough to quite get a firm grasp at what most of the posters here are trying to discuss I think.

jp400 wrote:If we are going to talk about more strict moderation, then I personally would LOVE to see it used to the extent that you drop the hammer more on people who constantly:

A: Spam (in all its forms)
B: Argue for no good reason
C: Troll

I think that eliminates 80% of all the posters.

Personally it has gotten slightly worse. Plenty of the topics dont interest me as much but I do visit the P&M sections along with the tournament discussions.

Frazzled wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Personally...
We need a bit stricter moderation in the Background forums. Either that or stickied threads with a "FAQ" of the more common questions.

"X universe vs Y universe" or "Y universe took Z from X universe!" threads need to be kicked to off-topic or just locked immediately and the poster warned. They're pointless exercises in stupidity and fanboyism, and almost always they're created as flamebait.

Why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"X universe vs Y universe" or "Y universe took Z from X universe!" threads need to be kicked to off-topic or just locked immediately and the poster warned.

This sounds harsh but it's true. Such threads have no place in either 40k Background or 40k Discussion.

Why?

They're crap threads, basically made to get the poster's post count up or incite flamewars.

I could go start one to illustrate the point, if you'd like.

Kanluwen wrote:Personally...
We need a bit stricter moderation in the Background forums. Either that or stickied threads with a "FAQ" of the more common questions.

"X universe vs Y universe" or "Y universe took Z from X universe!" threads need to be kicked to off-topic or just locked immediately and the poster warned. They're pointless exercises in stupidity and fanboyism, and almost always they're created as flamebait.

My hero But seriously, we need to take some measures against said things. They ALWAYS boils down to my willy beats your willy marine friends sort of arguments. And people need to stop hobby modding like certain members dose.

start the post ranking system,
Then take your highest quality posters and give them the opportunity to mentor newer younger posters.
When someone posts a poorly written post, the mods can pm them and suggest mentoring to improve their posts

just a thought

loki old fart wrote:start the post ranking system,
Then take your highest quality posters and give them the opportunity to mentor newer younger posters.
When someone posts a poorly written post, the mods can pm them and suggest mentoring to improve their posts

just a thought

if we had 30 mods we could do that. But of course I wouldn't want to be on a board that had "mentoring." One person's mentoring is another person's thought control.

loki old fart wrote:start the post ranking system,
Then take your highest quality posters and give them the opportunity to mentor newer younger posters.
When someone posts a poorly written post, the mods can pm them and suggest mentoring to improve their posts

just a thought

The problem with this, is that it will be abused from the start.

You have users who's friends will +1 each others post count non stop so they can reach "l33t status!11!!1"
ect ect ect

Frazzled wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:"X universe vs Y universe" or "Y universe took Z from X universe!" threads need to be kicked to off-topic or just locked immediately and the poster warned.

This sounds harsh but it's true. Such threads have no place in either 40k Background or 40k Discussion.

Why?

These topics are not really about 40k. As noted, they are really about sci-fi tropes in general. If I post a thread about how the Judge Dredd character has influenced 40k's background, that fits: it is a discussion of the background of 40k. If I post a thread about whether Judge Dredd could beat up an Inquisitor, at least half of the thread becomes talking about how cool Judge Dredd is--i.e., something that has nothing to do with 40k. Furthermore, the discussion about 40k that such threads contain is all from a generalist perspective: a universe in which BFG ships and the USS Enterprise can coexist also has nothing to do with 40k.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Having read this? Yes I'm afraid.

It's descending into a lot of cock-waving, mostly from people who always seem to feel 'they know better'.

How depressing. If you don't like how this site is Moderated, then go join a different one, surely?

Looking through your post history (Tomb Stalker Hoax, how to deal with RL bullies, why job hunting sucks, why drugs are produced.....) I see that you don't possess the shared experiences of those of us who try bringing useful content to Dakka. How the moderators moderate is a tangential point to Dakka's downward spiral, brought on by the segue into the fact that they moderate tone and behavior but not content.

The answer isn't the people who care about Dakka to leave Dakka - its for people like you to stop increasing the noise ratio...OR for moderators to moderate content, OR for additional moderators to be formed to start policing out the garbage posts so that relevant content can be read without an extensive search through posts like "Who's Primarch is the best in bed?" "Would Master Chief beat a Space Marine in a fight?" "Wakkawakka, lets fake a release rumor!"

Stop stop stop being such a bully. You are an elitist.

Frazzled wrote:

loki old fart wrote:start the post ranking system,
Then take your highest quality posters and give them the opportunity to mentor newer younger posters.
When someone posts a poorly written post, the mods can pm them and suggest mentoring to improve their posts

just a thought

if we had 30 mods we could do that. But of course I wouldn't want to be on a board that had "mentoring." One person's mentoring is another person's thought control.

If a new poster makes a post, with poor or low content, is it better to ?
A delete the post (censorship)
B lock the post (censorship) again
C allow people to deride, insult,belittle the poster.
D Suggest in the nicest way he speaks to (insert name here), who can help them put their point across.

loki old fart wrote:start the post ranking system,
Then take your highest quality posters and give them the opportunity to mentor newer younger posters.
When someone posts a poorly written post, the mods can pm them and suggest mentoring to improve their posts

just a thought

Problem is that some of the people here who post crap are content to just keep posting it.

After all, they know they'll get attention if they post crap. Look at 40k Proposed Rules sometime, and a certain self-proclaimed "Rules Spammer" there.

Kanluwen wrote:

loki old fart wrote:start the post ranking system,
Then take your highest quality posters and give them the opportunity to mentor newer younger posters.
When someone posts a poorly written post, the mods can pm them and suggest mentoring to improve their posts

just a thought

Problem is that some of the people here who post crap are content to just keep posting it.

After all, they know they'll get attention if they post crap. Look at 40k Proposed Rules sometime, and a certain self-proclaimed "Rules Spammer" there.

Or YMDC and the self-proclaimed "Resident Troll" who openly admits to delibertly starting some of the biggest flamefests in Dakka History, just for the sake of doing it.

jp400 wrote:

loki old fart wrote:start the post ranking system,
Then take your highest quality posters and give them the opportunity to mentor newer younger posters.
When someone posts a poorly written post, the mods can pm them and suggest mentoring to improve their posts

just a thought

The problem with this, is that it will be abused from the start.

You have users who's friends will +1 each others post count non stop so they can reach "l33t status!11!!1"
ect ect ect

But the mods still get to choose the mentors
so to reach elite status will require being a sucessfull mentor. Not post count

quantity will be meaningless.
Quality of posts, politeness etc will be what counts

In a perfect world, that would work. Though, I still feel that it would be abused pretty quickly by semi crafty users here.

I don't see post count as being an issue, for exactly the reasons you describe.

No one with any sense is going to ascribe intelligence or validity to someone's posts based on the fact that they have nothing better to do than feth around on a message board.

Yes, I realize how ironic that is given my posting history this month. I'm in between work and school! Give me a break!

It works like this

poster A posts utter gibberish, nobody is going to vote his post up accept his mates

Poster B posts a quality post, but is offensive bulling etc, so his post might get voted up.

Poster C posts an average post but is polite etc.

Poster D posts a great post, loads of content. well thought out and polite.

A gets offered a mentor
B gets credit for his posts quality, but asked to be more considerate
C gets oportunity to mentor as does D

mentors get icon next to avatar to denote status

To give people something to aspire to

BloodThirSTAR wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Having read this? Yes I'm afraid.

It's descending into a lot of cock-waving, mostly from people who always seem to feel 'they know better'.

How depressing. If you don't like how this site is Moderated, then go join a different one, surely?

Looking through your post history (Tomb Stalker Hoax, how to deal with RL bullies, why job hunting sucks, why drugs are produced.....) I see that you don't possess the shared experiences of those of us who try bringing useful content to Dakka. How the moderators moderate is a tangential point to Dakka's downward spiral, brought on by the segue into the fact that they moderate tone and behavior but not content.

The answer isn't the people who care about Dakka to leave Dakka - its for people like you to stop increasing the noise ratio...OR for moderators to moderate content, OR for additional moderators to be formed to start policing out the garbage posts so that relevant content can be read without an extensive search through posts like "Who's Primarch is the best in bed?" "Would Master Chief beat a Space Marine in a fight?" "Wakkawakka, lets fake a release rumor!"

Stop stop stop being such a bully. You are an elitist.

Stop stop stop telling me what to do. You are a bully. And....uninformed.


On topic....post counts serve no purpose. I wish they would go away. I think that would ease up on the garbage quite a bit too.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Stop stop stop telling me what to do. You are a bully. And....uninformed.

Since im uninformed too, i tried to look into the whole army list advice thing. Since i really needed some advice on Eldar anyway .
Well i made a thread in the 40k army list part of dakka and actually got very good advice i think. My thread didnt get flamed or became a place of struggle between to religious factions warring for controll over all Eldar list building.
Maybe thats an exception but im quite positively surprised AND also think i learned something about how Eldar work ingame.

You can easily find my thread i believe (its still on page one) and read it. Maybe you also have something to add too ^^.

Cheers

Dashofpepper wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I'm not seeing how you would mod out the posts though.

topic on plasma cannons. Somene says PCs are cool. Somoen says PCs suck and provides an excel sheet. Somoene says PC's are too expensive and cites orks.

Are you going to delete the first post?
How are you going to quantify what is or isn't a good post?
How are you going to sift through all the posts in the Tactical?

I'm presuming you're just screwing with me at this point to get me to repeat myself, so I'll just link where you asked me this earlier.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/270/319323.page#1972543

And my earlier response to when you asked the same question: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/319323.page#1970541

And your answer wasn't very good. At best it is an outline. Nothing in your answer gives what is a bad post, or what is a good post. You give examples, but no quantifiable data to say what is good and what is bad. You also seem to be trying to avoid his question.

jp400 wrote:

Heffling wrote:In my opinion, Dakka has the best support of any of the 40k related websites I read, has the most supportive members of the hobby, and a very friendly environment.

The moderators here are volunteer, and I think they do an excellent job. When you consider bang for your buck, it's out of the park.

So, rather than complain about any small details that may be bothering me, I'd like to thank the Mods for their hard work, and ask them if there is anything I can help to do to improve the community here.

Note, I will be joining the ranks of the DCM on my next pay check in about two weeks. I've just had to get a few personal things taken care of first. So I am quite willing to put my money where my mouth is.

While well worded, you really have not been her long enough to quite get a firm grasp at what most of the posters here are trying to discuss I think.

I agree with him and I've been here a while. I don't do lots of 40k posting because honestly there's nothing new to talk about in 40k except when updates come out. Beyond that, we're not reaching any new "groundbreaking concepts" or anything of that nature, we're rehashing old stuff in often the same ways. Painting threads are fun if you feel like getting told your projects aren't fluffy enough or they're too bizarre to warrant any percentage of actual useful commentary. Overall though, I like it here and to be fair I contribute very little except light-hearted commentary and an interesting topic of discussion that otherwise wouldn't pop up round these parts every once in a while. The mods are some of the best of all the forums I use. I think people take stuff way too seriously in general and I have no idea why this thread even needed to be made.

Dash, not to be inflammatory but as someone who has watched your rise to the social elite of Dakka, I have to say you're coming off as a tad elitist.

Yes, I understand that there are tons of "garbage" threads, but who are we to judge? Why should these be banned, they're just as legitimate as topics about the metagame and tactics, and even those ragethreads like religion. I respect you as a gamer and a hobbyist, but IMHO this is getting a bit out of hand...

And on a broader note, I notice that Dakka is resembling Renaissance Europe more and more. The Machiavellian elite are constantly arguing against one another as their ideologies clash while the average poster isn't really affected. Whether or not this is good or bad is really not something I'll get into, but it is, to me, an interesting comparison.

Again, I guess why not carve out some fiefdoms for the elite? A forum for discussing competitive tactics, a serious background forum, etc?

Allow people to post what they want in the main forums, but have some more serious ones available for those that want it?

Well, there is the DCM board . . .

Way Worse, i used to come here for News and rumors and now theres 14 pages of "ohhh i wants" between pictures of new items. One post per item or group of items was way better. Also i dont remember all these silly polls either. Another thing is the painting and modeling section is slowed, like 5 threads on the first page will be a picture, the rest are "hey i'm gonna convert this guy into luke from starwars....as soon as a i get some money, so thanks for reading these sentances." Annoying crap and one of the reasons i rarely go into the forum. Honestly i used to check this forum like 3 times a day, now i feel i can skip weeks and not miss a thing.

Well, now Polonius, that delves into whether or not there is an elite within Dakka, but that's a different topic and for the sake of the thread I suggest we don't go there.

However, I do agree with Manchu, if you do indeed support this site, and believe yourself to be of elite status, why not pitch in and gain access to the DCM forums, where the supposed "commoners" can't spam primarch sexual prowess threads.

I dont' mean elite in the sense of a higher class. I mean that when people want to post threads that are well though out, and expect the same in terms of replies, there are places for those kind of more serious discussion.

Which brings up the question of what a well thought out post is, but again, a different subject.

I can see where you're going with this though, and perhaps the tournament thread should be expanded to involve this serious type of discussion? I.E. A tournament list sub-section within, or maybe allowing those type of things to be posted there.

Which brings me to another point, what sort of topics are considered serious? P&M blogs? Background? etc.

Polonius wrote:I dont' mean elite in the sense of a higher class. I mean that when people want to post threads that are well though out, and expect the same in terms of replies, there are places for those kind of more serious discussion.

I echo the DCM board. When I started work on my Adepticon Display last year, I threw it up in the DCM forum....and received a ton of great feedback. They really helped me with their perspectives....and you're helping out Dakka at the same time.

Cryonicleech wrote:Dash, not to be inflammatory but as someone who has watched your rise to the social elite of Dakka, I have to say you're coming off as a tad elitist.

Yes, I understand that there are tons of "garbage" threads, but who are we to judge? Why should these be banned, they're just as legitimate as topics about the metagame and tactics, and even those ragethreads like religion. I respect you as a gamer and a hobbyist, but IMHO this is getting a bit out of hand...

And on a broader note, I notice that Dakka is resembling Renaissance Europe more and more. The Machiavellian elite are constantly arguing against one another as their ideologies clash while the average poster isn't really affected. Whether or not this is good or bad is really not something I'll get into, but it is, to me, an interesting comparison.

Elitist? Why? Because I would like thread titles to be indicative of their contents? Because I would like users to post in the appropriate forums for their discussion topics? That's the only thing I've asked for and suggested - and since it won't happen at the behest of users (or I wouldn't have complained in the first place) it requires a power-that-is to make it happen if it is a worthy cause.

I don't want all those "garbage" threads banned, or their authors executed - I just want them out of the places they don't belong in, and a new section called "Watercooler Chat" or something where they can take all those threads....so that when I log into Dakka and go to 40k General Discussion, I can actually READ about 40k, its happenings, and various aspects of 40k. All the "what's the worst weapon in 40k" crap in tactics, and "Who's primarch has the biggest penis" crap in General Discussion and "Was Fulgrim lame?" crap in Background Discussions can all go into the Watercooler board. It can be the grey murkiness between 40k and Off Topic - because it is vaguely tied into the 40k universe, but doesn't belong in the rest of the boards creating empty noise.

No, elitist in the sense that you can determine whether or not a thread is "valid" discussion, or "empty noise". What is empty noise and trash to you might be a valid topic to another, regardless of such factors as "maturity level" or "tactical correctness" and whatnot.

40k General Discussion is a broad category, and I do think that personally those sorts of "negative" posts belong there. So what if someone posts crap? I mean honestly, what a couple of people say and do shouldn't reflect the community as a whole. The sub-forum as a whole is already broad, and it caters to an even broader category of gamers, and I don't think those posts lack any validity.

Well that seems to be the heart of it. The vets here have seen these threads over and over again, but the great majority of lurkers and newbies are seeing it for the first time... its new and exciting to them. Both points of view are valid I think.

The thing is I do agree with Dash that it would be great to filter some of it or funnel it to a place where new guys can still enjoy it, but it doesnt spam the forums with noise for the rest of us with some experience. I can live with it, but I can only imagine how many great threads I may have missed because they got buried under re-hash or bad content... no one's fault really though.

hyperviper6 wrote:Search function is terrible; getting that fixed would be a huge asset. Mods that crack down on pointless stuff are frustrating at the least.

P&M is great if you subscribe but if you don't good luck finding it again with search.

Rumor and news has gone downhill.

There is nothing to really "engage" readers. Even worse with the mods on every thread locking or saying this or that is not how we want it done (written in rude tones) it does even more to disengage followers.

I say loosen up; get some dedicated writers who can engage the community like bols readers. Find more people to write articles in the P&M tutorial section and have some competitions (reviews, painting, conversions & the like).

Also, why not some sort of tracking system for winning/losing games. Give people a reason to come enter tonight’s battles and see how they stack up against other dakka users. Maybe even some sort of fun ranking system like the one that appears under your name.

Hope this helps.

(Edited for grammer)

Wow. This is absolutely how I see it.

See, but I don't understand why they don't belong there. They're about 40k, and lack enough specificity to be placed in any other 40k related sub forum.

However, I took a trip to 40k General discussions, and there were a couple of threads discussing artwork, two or so about trouble selecting new armies, one about what kind of pet you would have in the 40k universe, and other such threads. Would the last one be "empty noise"? It's a rhetorical, and it's really unlikely to prove useful by any means, but is it a valid topic? Personally, I think so.

It is interesting that there haven't been any complaints from the WHFB or historicals people.

That's because there are only two of them!

There certainly are more 40K users.

I'm sure Legoburner could find out the rate of posting in the specific 40K and WHFB forums.

Many of the olde time users have expressed that dakka is worsening.

I feel that its different.

Its much bigger, more easy to use, more pointless OT and ridiculous question posts.

My only disappointment is that the regular users are not more proactive in pointing out the error of the ways of the 'bad' posters. That doesn't mean flame them. It is pointing out the way things are normally done. It used to be a big, big part of dakka and I do miss it.

Also WHFB generates a better breed of player... that is why the WHFB forums rule!

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Also WHFB generates a better breed of player... that is why the WHFB forums rule!

A comparison of WHFB YMDC and 40k YMDC supports this view.

Scott-S6 wrote:You complain that someone says "Those armies are full of fail" - that's horrible and out of line.
Yet now you're saying that people should be allowed to say things like "that idea is friggin stupid"?

Why the sudden about face?

deadshane1 wrote:You know, so we can continue discussing what this thread is really about?

This is entirely relevant. If you've done a complete u-turn on this point, what's your reason for it? Presumably it's a really good one in which case you ought to bring it up.

olympia wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Also WHFB generates a better breed of player... that is why the WHFB forums rule!

A comparison of WHFB YMDC and 40k YMDC supports this view.

Oh yes especially all the whining about balance and all the restrictions these players use...
Very mature and hard boiled players .
Oh and yes my view is most likely as biased as yours i just dont try to sell it as fact.
By the way, you are insulting quite a lot of people...

Cheers

At the risk of offending 40k players as well...

I've noticed that fantasy tends to draw a slightly older crowd (or at least, doesn't tend to draw in the youngest gamers- no space marines).

Also, that section is smaller, so it's easier for good posts to be heard if they want to be.

In some people's opinions it is a more tactical game

And finally, we just got a new set of rules that makes us happy. Iron Angel is right on in that a few short months ago there was a general "the balance is off" mantra about the game, but GW pretty much hit the nail on the head with the new rules, and we are appeased.

So those are my thoughts on why there are few complaints in these threads from WHFB players

Scott-S6 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:You complain that someone says "Those armies are full of fail" - that's horrible and out of line.
Yet now you're saying that people should be allowed to say things like "that idea is friggin stupid"?

Why the sudden about face?

deadshane1 wrote:You know, so we can continue discussing what this thread is really about?

This is entirely relevant. If you've done a complete u-turn on this point, what's your reason for it? Presumably it's a really good one in which case you ought to bring it up.

Firstly, how is a change of ones opinion from 6 months or so ago relevant to the topic "is dakka going downhill" the fact is, what I posted earlier in this thread was a valid point that several other posters seemed to agree with. If I've changed my mind on a subject 6 months, 6 years, or 6 days ago what does it matter here? Maybe I'm a complete hypocrite, did that make my point any less valid? You're the only one it seemed to affect in that matter. It's not like you're bringing to light some elusive point that damns everything I've said....that thread was rather long if I remember, most people that have an informed opinion in THIS thread have probably seen it.

...but whatever, it seems you're intent on hammering at me on this subject. So be it. In the meantime...

If you go back and get involved in that thread, you'll find that it was primarily about other people bemoaning the free Ard Boyz tournament. Complaining about minutia in a tournament that is run for free and features big prizes for the winners. If you get REALLY interested in it, and track down the source of my complaining about "rude and innappropriate" comments about a players army list, you'll fine the source of all that complaining was basically a total DOG PILE onto a player by MANY DIFFERENT posters in a Blog article. (yes, one of the blogs that I recommend for good reading...I said you have to cut thru the chaff remember, you know be intelligent?)

The reaction to the players army list was MUCH different than the simple little "That idea is friggin stupid!" example that I posted here. One can make that statement, get on with WHY he feels that way, have an informative and helpful post and still get chastised by mods here on dakka.

Even a more stout and insulting post on a forum has less "ganging up" effect than a blog owner, and an entire entourage of 9-13 year old followers that just learned that you can be rude and curse at people on the internet on a blog and not get in trouble for it.

So, just so this is clear to you, on one hand we've got a person on a forum, telling another that an idea he has is "friggin stupid". Thats as far as I went, at SOME point insults need to be moderated, when it gets to the point where "dem's fightin' words" something needs to be done. I just dont think that my example is to the point needing board moderation.

On the other hand we've got 9+ regular posters on a blog including the blog owner, dogpiling a player at a tournament that is probably not reading the blog post in the first place. Dogging him out repeatadly using cursing, insults questioning parantage and suggesting the guy was intoxicated or mentally challenged...over, and over, and over again.


So, since you think that this was so relevant to this thread, yes, my opinion differ's on these two subjects.

I think that the mods are far too heavy handed on the popular public forums. A little bit of vitriol is harmless in posts sometimes. It's up to the moderators to determine when too much is going to far. Here on dakka it's black/white. (or black, GREY, and white if you ask some people about certain Mod's posting habbits) Polite policy. Don't do it EVER, or you will get a warning.

On a blog, you can get away with it...."That list is so fething stupid, you are a complete slow for coming up with that abortion. You're so stupid your Mother should have drowned you and sold the milk." Perfectly acceptable...and the sort of reaction the guy was getting to his armylist (without even his knowledge) over, and over, and over again. This is when it gets too far...you know...when its OBVIOUSLY too far?

So, hopefully I've cleared that little bit up for you. If this makes me a hypocrite, I can live with that. I dont think it makes my points in this thread any less valid however. I'm also quite satisfied in that stance since several others appeared to agree with me on many points I've made.


*Lastly, again I DO recommend blogs. Sometimes you have to read past the sort of drivel that I mentioned above, often, the comments section on posts is enough to discourage one from writing this sort of thing ON a blog, sometimes not. If you can get past the vitriol that WILL appear sometimes in a blog post, there is often some good stuff there. There are also OTHER blogs that DONT feature that sort of discussion at all...and still have free form writing without fear of Mod reprisals. The quality of info on blogs or local forums is INDEED much higher on subjects covering tactics/list building in popular forums such as Dakka, B&C, Warseer, ect. Go to forums for News, Rumours, Tourney info, or Off topic discussion....not tactics or list building advice. For that you go to blogs. Unquestionably.

Dashofpepper wrote:On topic....post counts serve no purpose. I wish they would go away. I think that would ease up on the garbage quite a bit too.

It would certainly get rid of the annoying "+1 Post count" posts...that should account for at least 10% of Dakka's Junk Posts. Those and "NB4Lock" posts annoy me more than trolling.

Post counts are a useful tool for moderators. They help identify factors about users, such as who is a strong contributor to the site, and other things.

It might be possible to turn them off except for moderators.

I would point out though, that we have a rule against +1 posts, and a rapid deployment Red Triangle for zapping them. If moderators don't get them all, that is because we don't see them all.

Deadshane1 wrote:So, just so this is clear to you, on one hand we've got a person on a forum, telling another that an idea he has is "friggin stupid". Thats as far as I went, at SOME point insults need to be moderated, when it gets to the point where "dem's fightin' words" something needs to be done. I just dont think that my example is to the point needing board moderation.

On the other hand we've got 9+ regular posters on a blog including the blog owner, dogpiling a player at a tournament that is probably not reading the blog post in the first place. Dogging him out repeatadly using cursing, insults questioning parantage and suggesting the guy was intoxicated or mentally challenged...over, and over, and over again.

Thanks Deadshane for explaining your position. I can understand your point.

I agree completely with Dash-- this forum has been going down the drain for a long time. There used to be a period where my group would link one another to Dakka threads that were cool or inspiring-- these days, if we link each other to a Dakka thread, it's usually something groundbreakingly bad or pathetic. Also, post counts are rubbish, since there's sadly no statistic for "good post counts."

I completely agree with hiding the post count. It eliminates a tendancy towards elitism by number of posts made, it would discourage users from posting simply for the sake of post count, etc.

The Penny Arcade forums used to have post counts listed. Once they got rid of those, there was an immediate rise in the quality of posting.

I am also of the opinion that any posts that meet the following criteria, as determined by a moderator, should warrant the poster getting an immediate one week (or longer for multiple offenses) suspension:

1) Personal Attacks
2) Implying the author of or respondant to a post is lacks intelligence
3) Inference that their idea lacks intelligence
4) Obvious attempts at trolling or inciting negative emotional responses

It seems obvious that many posters in this thread feel that the "lol that's stupid" posts aren't making Dakka a better site. So, do something to discourage this kind of posting.

One other suggestion I would like to make is that in the Swap Shop, when correcting a poster for items such as bumping a post too early, to please send the poster a PM rather than posting in their thread. If you're trying to correct someone for bumping, then giving them a free bump isn't the best way to do so.

fullheadofhair wrote:

carmachu wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:

So, the choice is either Stelek or what we have. I am definitely in the camp that Stelek produced some good stuff but it was a shame he couldn't moderate himself. when I saw the picture of him I was totally surprised to see he was an adult - just goes to show how difficult it is to picture people from posts. Me? Short, slightly over weight/ stocky, bald Englishman

Given the behavior and posts here on dakka, you could say that about many people, whether their adults or not. I mean the Wolrd Forge post complaint? Are you serious?

Oh god - that one - Ok, you got me, cannot even begin to defend my position if you are going to drag that one up ;-D

That is a good example of poor moderation. How that got past 1 page let alone 2 is beyond me. Got to be one of the crappest threads I have ever seen.

To be honest, I like people that are a bit rough around the edges an call things as they seem them, even if its a bit less then polite. Its needed on occassion, and useful every board needs a 'Stelek". Hell he isnt even the first one here to be like that. Before Stelek, there was ed maule. Before Ed there was a fella I think that ran by the handle of Ronin(or maybe thats another board). And before that there might have been one more. He's not the first of his kind around here. But it seems like that he's the last, as there arent any or they've been removed(or removed themselves) and thats one thing missing around here.

Further, its a new generation on dakka, and one of the things folks have to reconize when they say the place is "going downhill". A new generation that really doesnt know a history of GW like many old timers do. Like when one pulls out an old old beekie model thats a BA and its orange instead of red that we have now, among many things.

Just for the record, I have never seen someone post: "Hey, listen, I have X amount of posts more than you so get back into line, n00b." If there is an elitism problem, post count contributes nothing to next to nothing to that issue.

Kilkrazy wrote:Post counts are a useful tool for moderators. They help identify factors about users, such as who is a strong contributor to the site, and other things.

No not really. It tells folks about how much they post, not the contents and strength of the contributions in their posts. A poster that puts up a 100 posts that are the quality of "can spacez marines beat up the Talaiban" or "World Forge is ripping of GW" doesnt contribute the same as a guy who posts 3-4 posts of good tactica or armybuilding for his one army he plays.

carmachu wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Post counts are a useful tool for moderators. They help identify factors about users, such as who is a strong contributor to the site, and other things.

No not really. It tells folks about how much they post, not the contents and strength of the contributions in their posts. A poster that puts up a 100 posts that are the quality of "can spacez marines beat up the Talaiban" or "World Forge is ripping of GW" doesnt contribute the same as a guy who posts 3-4 posts of good tactica or armybuilding for his one army he plays.

If the Moderator has been paying attention, they would know who has a higher percentage of quality posts and who has a higher percentage of trolling and cheezburger pics.

Monster Rain wrote:

carmachu wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Post counts are a useful tool for moderators. They help identify factors about users, such as who is a strong contributor to the site, and other things.

No not really. It tells folks about how much they post, not the contents and strength of the contributions in their posts. A poster that puts up a 100 posts that are the quality of "can spacez marines beat up the Talaiban" or "World Forge is ripping of GW" doesnt contribute the same as a guy who posts 3-4 posts of good tactica or armybuilding for his one army he plays.

If the Moderator has been paying attention, they would know who has a higher percentage of quality posts and who has a higher percentage of trolling and cheezburger pics.

The problem is however, post counts dont differentiate between good contributions and crap ones.

carmachu wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

carmachu wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Post counts are a useful tool for moderators. They help identify factors about users, such as who is a strong contributor to the site, and other things.

No not really. It tells folks about how much they post, not the contents and strength of the contributions in their posts. A poster that puts up a 100 posts that are the quality of "can spacez marines beat up the Talaiban" or "World Forge is ripping of GW" doesnt contribute the same as a guy who posts 3-4 posts of good tactica or armybuilding for his one army he plays.

If the Moderator has been paying attention, they would know who has a higher percentage of quality posts and who has a higher percentage of trolling and cheezburger pics.

The problem is however, post counts dont differentiate between good contributions and crap ones.

In a vacuum, no. You're right.

In a larger context of an online community where people sort of know each other, I think that it could.

Monster Rain wrote:

In a vacuum, no. You're right.

In a larger context of an online community where people sort of know each other, I think that it could.

Really? Great, he's a challenge- rate my 3400 posts. from garbage to useful.

Cant do it can you? And thats just one poster among thousands.

carmachu wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

In a vacuum, no. You're right.

In a larger context of an online community where people sort of know each other, I think that it could.

Really? Great, he's a challenge- rate my 3400 posts. from garbage to useful.

Cant do it can you? And thats just one poster among thousands.

I probably could if I wanted to... What would it prove?

carmachu wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Post counts are a useful tool for moderators. They help identify factors about users, such as who is a strong contributor to the site, and other things.

No not really. It tells folks about how much they post, not the contents and strength of the contributions in their posts. A poster that puts up a 100 posts that are the quality of "can spacez marines beat up the Talaiban" or "World Forge is ripping of GW" doesnt contribute the same as a guy who posts 3-4 posts of good tactica or armybuilding for his one army he plays.

As a moderator I use post counts as an indicator of aspects of user behaviour.

For example:
Low post count/long service -- might be a sock puppet, investigate further -- Ah! he is basically a modeller and has posted a lot in the gallery, but he isn't interested in everyday use.
High post count/short service -- could be spending too much time on the board rather than enjoying real life.

I am not the only moderator who spots patterns of this sort. It is not the only way that moderators judge user behaviour.

I think post count is related to the voices on the forum.
Considering I have been a member of Dakka almost as long as it has existed, I have a pitiful amount of posts.

When I agree with someone's point of view in a thread, I am not likely to post, just to +1.
I usually need to have my own take to do so.

In the past there were many vocal long time posters, many who seemed to have a similar mindset to myself, so I posted less.
With the influx of newer members and the fading of some of those voices, I feel the need more often to express my view.

Heffling wrote:

I am also of the opinion that any posts that meet the following criteria, as determined by a moderator, should warrant the poster getting an immediate one week (or longer for multiple offenses) suspension:

1) Personal Attacks
2) Implying the author of or respondant to a post is lacks intelligence
3) Inference that their idea lacks intelligence
4) Obvious attempts at trolling or inciting negative emotional responses

If only. =p

My only real beef with the moderator team is that when you report a personal attack, it doesn't get deleted or modded out, they just add a post that says, "Modquisition now on" or "Cool it with the personal attacks." So that personal attack sits there, libel or slander that it may be. I probably have people jumping on me as often as anyone else here does (or more) and from posting trends, I can see when someone has been suspended or banned (including myself from time to time).

When someone writes, "Dash, everything you write is drivel, go back to your lame life and stop polluting the internet," my instinctive reply is, "Amazing contribution you're making to Dakka yourself there. I would encourage you to stop posting until you have something useful to say. FYI, I'm not holding my breath, I'm not expecting much."

Typically, I report the post. 50% of the time, a moderator posts "Moderation now on, cut the personal attacks" or something, and that's it. 30% of the time, a moderator messages me and says, "It wasn't that bad" and that's it. 15% of the time, nothing happens. 5% of the time, the offending post is edited out and the personal attacks attacks are removed.

Its pretty damn hard to NOT respond to someone calling you out specifically and attacking you. It would be easier if moderators removed offending content instead of simply saying, "Moderation on now." 100% of the posts that I write that people take offense to are in response to a personal attack. If personal attacks were removed and not just noted....posts that I write that are potentially offensive would disappear. Seriously. If someone punches me below the belt, I'm going to stomp on their head until they are dead. Here on Dakka, where the fights are verbal, I'm expected to not retaliate....but the instigation isn't removed, just noted.

I'd be a happy camper if that policy changed. Hell, me being a moderator would *also* make me a very easy to get along with kind of guy. I wouldn't ever have to be acidic with someone, because the personal attacks I'm responding to would just get deleted as inappropriate. Then I could freely go back to bringing content to Dakka without fear of my name getting dragged through the mud, my efforts denigrated, and people calling me names because I could just zap out that crap.

Dashofpepper wrote:Then I could freely go back to bringing content to Dakka without fear of my name getting dragged through the mud, my efforts denigrated, and people calling me names because I could just zap out that crap.

People will form their opinions of you based on your behavior rather than what people say about you. Look at how people have been talking about Mauleed and Stelek in these threads, for example. I'd say the solution to your fear of denigration is to ignore the denigration. What can most people compare to your conrtibutions? Other Dakka users are smart and will take this into account--not only in evaluating your posts but also in evaluating the posts of your detractors. There is no need to simply silence your critics.

Anyone else noting the irony of a thread about dakka going down hill,

On Dakka

Is that all there is left to talk about, 13 pages worth?

I feel I have lent credence to the ironic self fulfilling prophecy and absurd notion by even posting here.

Augustus wrote:Anyone else noting the irony of a thread about dakka going down hill,

On Dakka

Is that all there is left to talk about, 13 pages worth?

I feel I have lent credence to the ironic self fulfilling prophecy and absurd notion by even posting here.

Indeed, almost 10 pages back. . .

kirsanth wrote:Though oddly, this thread is making me re-think my initial position a bit.

yay Augustus posted!

There are many if not hundreds? of top dakka posters with post-counts in the hundreds.

I agree with Dash that offending material should not be left up, but instead should be edited by a Mod. The offending post could be copied into a library file in a moderator-only section of the website for historical reference or disputes.

I know from talking to Moderators at Penny Arcade that what they do is edit/delete the offending post for all users, and post the offensive post in a Mod Only section to act as a history file.

Please note that I'm not trying to turn Dakka into Penny Arcade, but they have an extremely popular forum and are highly successful in both terms of content and general maturity of posters. So I feel there are good parts that could be utilized here.

Dashofpepper wrote:Its pretty damn hard to NOT respond to someone calling you out specifically and attacking you. It would be easier if moderators removed offending content instead of simply saying, "Moderation on now." 100% of the posts that I write that people take offense to are in response to a personal attack. If personal attacks were removed and not just noted....posts that I write that are potentially offensive would disappear. Seriously. If someone punches me below the belt, I'm going to stomp on their head until they are dead. Here on Dakka, where the fights are verbal, I'm expected to not retaliate....but the instigation isn't removed, just noted.

I'd be a happy camper if that policy changed. Hell, me being a moderator would *also* make me a very easy to get along with kind of guy. I wouldn't ever have to be acidic with someone, because the personal attacks I'm responding to would just get deleted as inappropriate. Then I could freely go back to bringing content to Dakka without fear of my name getting dragged through the mud, my efforts denigrated, and people calling me names because I could just zap out that crap.

kind of like on your own blog where you already have authority? where someone criticizes you and both sides devolve into mudslinging and escalation of the rhetoric and you decide to edit the person the other person's posts to make it seem like they're insulting themselves along with posting their real contact info probably taken from their registration info? (see pic below) that is NOT responsible moderation. as the author of that blog, you could have chosen to delete that person's posts but instead you decided to take the immature way out and edit it instead. power does NOT make you a less "acidic" person apparently if your own blog is taken as evidence. i also don't consider it mature mod-like and proper behavior to take what is essentially a local game store and associated forum argument and escalate it to an internet-wide spam trolling thread in battle reports.. and then start a blog about it when it's moderated (and appropriately so) as NOT a battle report and simply trolling... and continue linking it in your sig months later (where i got the info). yes, those people at that store were complete idiots and you were in the right about what happened there... but your behavior AFTER was not simply defending yourself but escalating it. your own comments on your blog say that you believe in a policy of confrontation that involves escalating the situation until it is untenable for your opponent and they back down and your actions (both in real life according to your own blog) and your posting reflect that. that kind of policy may be appropriate for use in the military but isn't in civilian life or online life. your contributions to the battle reports and tactics forums were quite useful and i enjoyed them but frankly i don't think you should make yourself out as an innocent above the fray when talking about how you'd be a great mod. your suggestions for changes to the tactics forum DO however have alot of merit and i second them.

Interesting thread.
I don't think Dakka is that much worse than it used to be- I'm proficient at skimming through the tides of crap to get to the interesting posts. I have a cadre of users who I find make worthwhile contributions, and I sort of follow them around. If that number ever gets too small, I'll stop posting here, pretty much.

What I do find amusing is posters who I would consider needlessly aggressive blowhards getting butthurt over personal attacks. I've seen it a few times when there's a spat, and it's really pretty funny. I've gotten annoyed once or twice on Dakka (especially on OT where things that I actually care about can be discussed sometimes) but the idea of getting THAT het up about a game of warhammer makes me smile. I rarely feel the need to report anything in the wider fora, and have only ever put one user on ignore.
I guess I echo Killkrazy's sentiment- I certainly find his posts on these topics to be well reasoned.
I've seen at least 3 of these threads since I've been on Dakka though, and I don't think there was a downward trend during that time at all. Old folk leave and new folk arrive, and some of the new folk are cool. The site itself is improving all the time technically (kudos Legoburner).

Warboss,

Thank you for providing an example of trolling and personal attacks in a thread about the quality dropping on Dakka. It's nice to see the drop in quality in action.

Heffling wrote:One other suggestion I would like to make is that in the Swap Shop, when correcting a poster for items such as bumping a post too early, to please send the poster a PM rather than posting in their thread. If you're trying to correct someone for bumping, then giving them a free bump isn't the best way to do so.

If the warning is for bumping their thread, it's already at the top of the page, so a mod adding a comment to it isn't actually doing that much...

Dashofpepper wrote:My only real beef with the moderator team is that when you report a personal attack, it doesn't get deleted or modded out, they just add a post that says, "Modquisition now on" or "Cool it with the personal attacks." ...

That depends on which mod deals with it, and just how bad the post is. Some of us prefer to delete offending material, some just issue a warning and leave the post in place unless it's something particularly dire.

The thing is, either approach gets complaints. If we leave it alone, people complain that nothing was done about it. If we delete it, people complain that we're power-hungry maniacs who go around deleting people's posts.

insaniak wrote:
The thing is, either approach gets complaints. If we leave it alone, people complain that nothing was done about it. If we delete it, people complain that we're power-hungry maniacs who go around deleting people's posts.

Yeah, and? Suck it up! Why don't you just give everyone what they want constantly? It's not like it's that hard.

Augustus wrote:Anyone else noting the irony of a thread about dakka going down hill,

On Dakka

Is that all there is left to talk about, 13 pages worth?

I feel I have lent credence to the ironic self fulfilling prophecy and absurd notion by even posting here.

Considering the poll results seem to cast into doubt that there's a problem at all, I wouldn't worry about it.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

insaniak wrote:
The thing is, either approach gets complaints. If we leave it alone, people complain that nothing was done about it. If we delete it, people complain that we're power-hungry maniacs who go around deleting people's posts.

Yeah, and? Suck it up! Why don't you just give everyone what they want constantly? It's not like it's that hard.

What you did there. I see it.

Heffling wrote:Warboss,

Thank you for providing an example of trolling and personal attacks in a thread about the quality dropping on Dakka. It's nice to see the drop in quality in action.

i'm sure you've witnessed alot of changes in your venerable tenure of FOUR MONTHS here at dakka. you may have even witnessed the changing of a single season in that time!

dash has referred to wanting a leadership role in any tactics forum changes a half dozen times. while i think he adds plenty of valuable insight to dakkadakka, i don't think he'd be a good choice for that kind of position. if addressing a part of someone's post that is repeated several times in two threads and refuting their claims with their own words and actions is offensive to you, you may want to reconsider the whole internet discussion thing.

The mods do a pretty good job I think. I've seen far worse. There are a couple I think are over zealous sometimes, but in fairness, they do dedicate their time to a totally thankless task.

Kilkrazy wrote:Post counts are a useful tool for moderators. They help identify factors about users, such as who is a strong contributor to the site, and other things.

It might be possible to turn them off except for moderators.

I would point out though, that we have a rule against +1 posts, and a rapid deployment Red Triangle for zapping them. If moderators don't get them all, that is because we don't see them all.

Post count can encourage people to make thoughtless posts to boost their count. Personally I think we would be better off if this was turned off. It's not hard to identify regulars who make a substantial contribution here.

May just be me, but to me it seems since the start of this year dakka started going down hill with the same old threads posted over and over, which lead to my withdrawal to the DCM forums unless something out here caught my eye. Then I lost my DCM status and couldn't renew (times are hard) and started browsing dakka normally and the posting quality seemed to be getting worse and low and behold the same old threads in the sections I frequented, Fluff and Background Areas.

At first I attributed it to the summer months so I left, now I'm back to lurking and its still pretty much the same, only I've ceased to bother trying to help keep repeat threads down.

P&M and the like are about the same I guess, but like I saw mentioned earlier if you aren't painting Golden Daemon quality you shouldn't even bother posting.

Can I just emphasise that I am not pro post counts, I am pro moderators being able to see post counts because it honestly, genuinely, truthfully does add to the useful information about a user's behaviour.

If Legoburner wanted he could just turn it off for ordinary users, tell you all it was gone, and display it secretly for the moderators.

Of course army rank tracks would have to be switched off too.

Hey Stynier. Not everything is bad. I started some Night Lords, among other things. And check out the awesome threads that have been put up in Tactics in the last two days. Also, we've got cooler forum games over in SurvivorGames than ever.

Manchu, fallen to Chaos and I didn't get to witness it? I'll check your stuff out, and maybe I'll get in on some of those games, they were always fun.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Post counts are a useful tool for moderators. They help identify factors about users, such as who is a strong contributor to the site, and other things.

It might be possible to turn them off except for moderators.

I would point out though, that we have a rule against +1 posts, and a rapid deployment Red Triangle for zapping them. If moderators don't get them all, that is because we don't see them all.

Post count can encourage people to make thoughtless posts to boost their count. Personally I think we would be better off if this was turned off. It's not hard to identify regulars who make a substantial contribution here.

As someone who has 11K+ posts, I would like to say I completely agree.

When mods and other users start making self congratulatory posts about how they have been here for X years in order to celebrate the 'achievement' of 20k+ posts where the majority of which are derived from posting in the WAR forum, it becomes apparent that post counts are useless and self aggrandizing.

Seriously wasted bandwidth spent on that equally worthless bit of information Called post count.

There are already army profile titles under the usernames to denote some idea of 'rank' related to post count, the actual post count then becomes entirely redundant and unnecessary.

Of course they wont go away though, since this form of 'rank' has been used on this and every other site for as long as forums existed. The whole post count bit should still be canned though.

Monster Rain wrote:

Augustus wrote:Anyone else noting the irony of a thread about dakka going down hill,

On Dakka

Is that all there is left to talk about, 13 pages worth?

I feel I have lent credence to the ironic self fulfilling prophecy and absurd notion by even posting here.

Considering the poll results seem to cast into doubt that there's a problem at all, I wouldn't worry about it.

Indeed, thank you for the perspective, on to bigger and better.

warboss wrote:Waaaahh...

Yeah um...that's not my blog. I don't have a blog. That's Danny Internets' blog, and I occasionally submit articles to him (per his request) to spruce up his website.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Many of the olde time users have expressed that dakka is worsening.

I feel that its different.

Its much bigger, more easy to use, more pointless OT and ridiculous question posts.

My only disappointment is that the regular users are not more proactive in pointing out the error of the ways of the 'bad' posters. That doesn't mean flame them. It is pointing out the way things are normally done. It used to be a big, big part of dakka and I do miss it.

I think I like the perspective said here by Waaagh_Gonads more than any other post over the last three pages.

Dashofpepper wrote:

warboss wrote:Waaaahh...

Yeah um...that's not my blog. I don't have a blog. That's Danny Internets' blog, and I occasionally submit articles to him (per his request) to spruce up his website.

except "waaaaaah" perfectly described one of those so called articles.

This site is a cesspit of hatred and lies.

It seems the majoirty of posters are either flagrant anti-GW trolls, borderline illiterate, or narcissistic reactionaries who can't handle criticism. Plus there's obvious favoritism towards those who are willing to suck proverbial mod genitals, and a general consensus that style matters more than substance. Any sort of reasonable, logical argument is stifled immediately by the masses if it contradicts the preexisting narratives ever-present on Dakka:

- GW is worse than the devil and Hitler combined
- Tournament players rape kittens with their poorly-painted, modeled-for-advantage miniatures
- Everyone is a Super Special Snowflake who are not only entitled to their own opinions, but also their own facts (unless a mod disagrees with them, in which case it is perfectly acceptable to make a disparaging post before locking a thread to eliminate any possibility of dialogue)
- Only positive criticism is constructive criticism

I rarely post here anymore. The only thing the site is good for are the painting galleries, YMDC, and various news bits.

Ostrakon wrote:This site is a cesspit of hatred and lies.

It seems the majoirty of posters are either flagrant anti-GW trolls, borderline illiterate, or narcissistic reactionaries who can't handle criticism. Plus there's obvious favoritism towards those who are willing to suck proverbial mod genitals, and a general consensus that style matters more than substance. Any sort of reasonable, logical argument is stifled immediately by the masses if it contradicts the preexisting narratives ever-present on Dakka:

- GW is worse than the devil and Hitler combined
- Tournament players rape kittens with their poorly-painted, modeled-for-advantage miniatures
- Everyone is a Super Special Snowflake who are not only entitled to their own opinions, but also their own facts (unless a mod disagrees with them, in which case it is perfectly acceptable to make a disparaging post before locking a thread to eliminate any possibility of dialogue)
- Only positive criticism is constructive criticism

I rarely post here anymore. The only thing the site is good for are the painting galleries, YMDC, and various news bits.

"either" - mmmh I think you under-estimate and don't appreciate people's efforts and abilities to suck in many areas at the same time.

I have never understood the problem that people have with tournie players. I just don't get that. I don't play in tournies as it isn't my environment but I have yet to understand why people who go to tournie object to getting seal clubbed - you know what you are getting into.

Some of the most prolific posters, I would wager, are also the most prone to hit the "report post" button. Surely the mods must have the statistics on users who report the most posts. Perhaps some sort of counseling forum could be made available to these sensitive souls.

fullheadofhair wrote:I have never understood the problem that people have with tournie players.

It's probably my fault, what with all the "Dakka Dakka Casual Gamer Mafia" stuff I posted. It was meant as a joke - a bit of intentionally ironic absurdest humour - but I'm sure some people took me as serious and, worse, agreed with what I was saying.

I don't see the issue. The place seems friendlier than whineseer and has more active users than bell of vague articles. Maybe an incentive medal reward type thing for people who contribute articles?

There could be monthly competitions for a P&M challenge, reviews, tutorials, tacticas etc, users could vote on them as well. It would be a sort of peer review.

Perhaps remove post counts from public view (but for example you could see your own in your profile) but keep the titles as they are just a vague estimate of how long you've been here.

Low post count/long service -- might be a sock puppet, investigate further -- Ah! he is basically a modeller and has posted a lot in the gallery, but he isn't interested in everyday use.

Yay! I'm a sock puppet Although I never did get my previous post count transferred over from the old boards...... Work would be the primary reason for reduced post count. Maybe If I change the colour settings so it's a bit less obvious....

Actually I sometimes find it difficult to who some of the regular contributors are - particularly when they change avatars, it's always easier to track pictures rather than names

Dakka has had ups and downs for years, many of the current problem are more to do with where 40K is at the moment rather than Dakka itself. News and rumors for example has gone downhill in part due to GW's current policy on news. It leaves huge threads of speculation every occasional tidbit. Take the DE thread, I’m interested in the new DE but I lack the will to read through that monster.

The one forum I dislike is YMDC. I can't believe some of what I read there. It's horrible stuff. They need a knowledgable moderator to get that one back on track.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The one forum I dislike is YMDC. I can't believe some of what I read there. It's horrible stuff. They need a knowledgable moderator to get that one back on track.

Actually GWAR and co. are pretty damn knowledgeable...

Oh, and if you want an example of piss-poor moderation, try 40kforums back when Wardenhammer was about. If you posted anything he didn't agree with, he'd have a go at you on the thread, and get quite flamey. If you pointed out mistakes/mistruths in his posts, he'd go back and edit his, then claim he said nothing of the kind.

Oh, and don't forget that whilst he was free to rip into which ever religion he chose, the second someone pointed out that not only was his 'wicca' a load of cobblers (apparently based on ancient Druidic texts, which is a good trick seeing as they didn't have a written language) but also he was extremely hypocritical, instant bannage on account of him being a knob-jockey.

That people, is power tripping!

olympia wrote:Some of the most prolific posters, I would wager, are also the most prone to hit the "report post" button. Surely the mods must have the statistics on users who report the most posts. Perhaps some sort of counseling forum could be made available to these sensitive souls.

There is some truth in that.
However it may be that they are using a larger part of the forum than 'regular posting' users and are finding where problem posts are.

However the more prolific posters also generate a good percentage of the reports from other users.

Most astonishingly the people who most often shout loudest in threads like this one (as has been said earlier a thread like this pops up every few months) are often the ones who have the biggest user case files, and generate a largenumber of reports against them.

To be honest I want robust discussion. I think it is also alright to not want to give a big hug to every dakka user. It is also to be expected that as new users arrive (and dakka has been, for the last year or so the fastest growing wargaming website in terms of true user numbers) there will be the same posts that appeared back when I joined in 2000 and then reappeared every few months ever since. Which is why I often don't reply to them unles sthere is something profound or the rules/background changes have put a new perspective on things. Also why I do 90+% of my posting in the DCM mosh pit where despite being able to discuss anything except users who don't have access to the forum we end up discussing little man-dollies.

I love this site.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Heffling wrote:

I am also of the opinion that any posts that meet the following criteria, as determined by a moderator, should warrant the poster getting an immediate one week (or longer for multiple offenses) suspension:

1) Personal Attacks
2) Implying the author of or respondant to a post is lacks intelligence
3) Inference that their idea lacks intelligence
4) Obvious attempts at trolling or inciting negative emotional responses

If only. =p

My only real beef with the moderator team is that when you report a personal attack, it doesn't get deleted or modded out, they just add a post that says, "Modquisition now on" or "Cool it with the personal attacks." So that personal attack sits there, libel or slander that it may be. I probably have people jumping on me as often as anyone else here does (or more) and from posting trends, I can see when someone has been suspended or banned (including myself from time to time).

When someone writes, "Dash, everything you write is drivel, go back to your lame life and stop polluting the internet," my instinctive reply is, "Amazing contribution you're making to Dakka yourself there. I would encourage you to stop posting until you have something useful to say. FYI, I'm not holding my breath, I'm not expecting much."

Typically, I report the post. 50% of the time, a moderator posts "Moderation now on, cut the personal attacks" or something, and that's it. 30% of the time, a moderator messages me and says, "It wasn't that bad" and that's it. 15% of the time, nothing happens. 5% of the time, the offending post is edited out and the personal attacks attacks are removed.

Its pretty damn hard to NOT respond to someone calling you out specifically and attacking you. It would be easier if moderators removed offending content instead of simply saying, "Moderation on now." 100% of the posts that I write that people take offense to are in response to a personal attack. If personal attacks were removed and not just noted....posts that I write that are potentially offensive would disappear. Seriously. If someone punches me below the belt, I'm going to stomp on their head until they are dead. Here on Dakka, where the fights are verbal, I'm expected to not retaliate....but the instigation isn't removed, just noted.

I'd be a happy camper if that policy changed. Hell, me being a moderator would *also* make me a very easy to get along with kind of guy. I wouldn't ever have to be acidic with someone, because the personal attacks I'm responding to would just get deleted as inappropriate. Then I could freely go back to bringing content to Dakka without fear of my name getting dragged through the mud, my efforts denigrated, and people calling me names because I could just zap out that crap.

Dude, have you checked your signature? I mean, that thread should have been DELETED the instant you posted it. Doesn't matter who is wrong and who is right. You are attacking a whole community in that thread and Dakka is letting you do it. If I were to sling a personal attack or insult at you and it got deleted, I think my head might explode from the level of hypocrisy shown....



Clay

warboss wrote:

Heffling wrote:Warboss,

Thank you for providing an example of trolling and personal attacks in a thread about the quality dropping on Dakka. It's nice to see the drop in quality in action.

i'm sure you've witnessed alot of changes in your venerable tenure of FOUR MONTHS here at dakka. you may have even witnessed the changing of a single season in that time!

dash has referred to wanting a leadership role in any tactics forum changes a half dozen times. while i think he adds plenty of valuable insight to dakkadakka, i don't think he'd be a good choice for that kind of position. if addressing a part of someone's post that is repeated several times in two threads and refuting their claims with their own words and actions is offensive to you, you may want to reconsider the whole internet discussion thing.

Firstly, I don't think that someone should be judged on length of tenure, but rather on the quality and content of their posting. Dismissing someone because they have only been a member here for four months is elitist and will only serve to chase off new membership. In the long run, this type of attitude will contribute to the death of Dakka.

Secondly, I in no way, state, or form indicated my approval or support for Dashofpepper to become a moderator here.

Thirdly, I am not offended by your quoting Dashofpepper. What I am offended by is the glaring attempt to drag the posting here off-topic in order to enact a personal attack against someone. The topic of discussion in this post is supposed to be the Quality of Dakka Dakka. I don't see how your post adds to that discussion, other than as supporting evidence of a loss of quality at Dakka.

In the course of my life, I try to practice the Three R's.

1) Responsibility for my actions.
2) Regard for others.
3) Respect for myself.

I have enough respect for myself and my experiences in life to feel that I can contribute to a discussion about the Quality of posting on Dakka. You may disagree with this, and are certainly welcome to do so, but it should be because I am making a flawed arguement or statement. It should not be because you wanted to start a personal crusade against someone with the point of inciting negative emotions and a response back to you.

I always take responsibility for my actions, and if I state something here that is incorrect, correct me. I want to improve myself, and I can't if I do something wrong and don't know about it.

I also have enough regard for others to want to improve the experience they will have here at Dakka, which this thread can be an excellent tool for doing so.

Do you feel that you meet the Three R's of being an adult?

Well I'm new to posting itself and have lurked around many Forums, on and off, for a while now. I know I'm not particularly qualified to answer the OP's topic but it seems to me that the more people you get the more opinions vary and the more people's attitudes to the hobby itself vary as well. Personally speaking I'm quite an enigma in that I don't take my gaming seriously and yet I love creating my own rules, background and fiction with all the seriousness of a child at play (if that makes any kind of sense) as it's been a habit since I was a wee-boy...

I love lurking the P&M blogs as there's some very exciting and inspirational work out there which I feel, in some way, improves the hobby as a whole...yet don't feel the need to comment on absolutely everything as I often find my own opinion has been well voiced by others - just seeing it is enough for me...

As a noob member I can say that it's already helped to broaden my mind to the many ideas/thoughts/feelings about the hobby in general and I'm grateful for that - no matter how much I agree/disagree with others.

I think people can, and will always, disaprove of an idea/concept anyone has to offer & as for personal attacks I wouldn't take them that seriously if someone called me a git who lacked intelligence. I'll never meet them and I don't care - it won't hurt my ego - much (if one was to be positive about such things they'd simply build character). However I recognise that many users are of a certain 'hobby' age and may not 'know' as much about the hobby as others - but that's what we're here for - to help others, even ourselves.

When all is said and done (or not said and not done) this is a space for help/application/conjecture about little toy soldiers with a fictional background - so anything goes...

I'm not sure this has helped one iota...

You're pretty much useless warspawned. Go back to whatever ass crack in the internet you climbed out of and leave the real posting to us.

I think the elitism is part of being in a nerdy hobby. When I was managing a comic store I got to see in nearly every game, every comic discussion or anything else we had going on. I can't understand why when people are discussing tournament formats some argue "that just screws the good players!" when, in reality, aren't the "good players" the ones who win? That's assuming everyone knows the rules to begin with, but it's an aside. I liken the call to elitism like the call to Chaos. It may seem empowering, but get over yourself. At the very least, you're a human like the rest of us and I think we can all meet on that point.

olympia wrote:Some of the most prolific posters, I would wager, are also the most prone to hit the "report post" button. Surely the mods must have the statistics on users who report the most posts. Perhaps some sort of counseling forum could be made available to these sensitive souls.

I thought the advise from the mods was to hit the panic button.
So you are saying that we should head their advice so we may be considered over-sensitive snitches?

There is nothing like consistency to help things run smoothly.

They are not necessarily related.

You're pretty much useless warspawned. Go back to whatever ass crack in the internet you climbed out of and leave the real posting to us.

I prefer the term 'mostly harmless' myself

At the very least, you're a human like the rest of us and I think we can all meet on that point.

I don't know about that either

I have just come back from a few months break. And I do not believe that the content quality has dropped at all.

It's not the same as it used to be, although I'm not sure if that is bad, good or a bit of both. I'd probably plump for the latter.

I certainly remember some of the flame fests on the old Dakka when two (or more individuals) disagreed with on another, although, it was often funny. Not because I laugh at people in anger, but rather, often there was this cool wit between the two rivals, an arsenal of put downs that would make me chuckle. Almost some kind of gentlemanly combat of ideals, obviously it could turn nasty, but I remember more of the half serious put downs and comments more than anything else. I still see that often today, and several posters have a habit of making me chuckle quite heartidly in OT and around the boards.

Of course to new users, that may seem overly hostile, but I don't think it was as bad as some folks think it was, as I probably wouldn't have stuck around this long if it had been. The Mods have always been good here in my opinion, and I have a lot of respect for them.

I've been on quite a few sites, most have had Modding issues in my mind, some it can vary board of board, such as Neoseeker, its a mostrous thing, so many forums, that Mods are focused in one area, and there are few 'cross-forum' Mods. On one Neo board you can say something and your fine, and another your banned, its all down to the Mods of each board, a very odd place, I don't go to much anymore.

Warseer is too strict in my view, a good example was a few days back where someone tried to start a thread about one part of Games Day so folks could discuss that one issue, but it was locked as the 40page plus and growning Games Day thread was already covering it. Thats just poor form, being a Mod on a fair few sites now, I'd welcome that kind of initiative from the members, not stamp on it.
I've never got that feeling here on Dakka, in fact I'll be honest and my current modding style is probably a combination of Alpharius, Fraz and Waaaagh_Gonads, I'm not sure if thats a good thing, or some kind of abomination though.

There are several others I can think of, and none of them have kept my attention as this place has, mainly due to the tone of the board, Mod issues or a less mature crowd. I still come here nearly every day, and I love the place.

More members means more problems, and I think thats the issue, thats not really a negative issue though, as it stimulates more conversation overall. You're going to get excellent new posters, as well as poor ones, and you just need to be more willing to accept you will see the odd thread you wish you hadn't opened. I'd rather have increasing numbers than decreasing for certain though, as even the vets among us can sometimes decide todays the day and hang up the gaming boots. New blood is always going to be important, and I think we just need to adjust to an evolving gaming populace.

The odd polite nudge in the right direction now or then couldn't hurt em mind.

Personally, I started browsing this forum around March 10, and have found that the content did drop.

The big issues I see have been outlined before:

- the search engine needs to be fixed
- posts need to be deleted if inappropriate or moved to the correct folder/sub-section

I am coming for Dakka for the Tactics, Army list, 40k General Discussion, P&M and blogs. Some of it is for my gaming experience (most important), the rest is for the beauty of the hobby.

Posters like DoP and Gwar are what are making me stay around here.... as long as they are not too zealous and that one of their nemesis show up to just disturb everything.

There should have been another section in the polls... between "worst ever" and 2nd pick in that list....

Does anyone think there is a legitimate reason to allow the posting of polls in tactics? It seems to me that any tactical question should be answered with at least a couple of sentences rather than by voting.

I haven't noticed much changes since i first joined. There has been some new forums introduced, i.e. tournament disussions, but i have never looked in this thread as i have never attended in a tournament and aren't interested in competitive play.

I don't really post my own army lists on Dakka, except perhaps when im starting out with an army, as im quite stubborn on some things, and a 'pondering session' or playtesting can often iron out any problems.

However, contarary to what others have said, i think the tactics forum is very good. I've learned a lot of things and many difficult queriers of mine are normally sorted out quickly.

So dakka may not be perfect, but it hasn't got any less or more perfect since i joined.

Heffling wrote:
Firstly, I don't think that someone should be judged on length of tenure, but rather on the quality and content of their posting. Dismissing someone because they have only been a member here for four months is elitist and will only serve to chase off new membership. In the long run, this type of attitude will contribute to the death of Dakka.?

except that you're personally attacking me as an example of decreasing quality of dakka over time... in a thread about it decreasing over time... when you have no frame of reference since you're only a member for four months. i'd see no irony if you posted in a thread about painting or modelling or even tactics since none of those are related to your length of membership on dakka. however, when you decide to post a personal attack on me in on a thread about how the site has changed over the years when you haven't even been a member for two full seasons, i do see the hypocrisy in that. if you're as mature as your post claims, you should too. if you feel like the quality of dakka average posting is crap currently, feel free to post about it. just don't claim special knowledge and attack me in the same sentance (violating your own second R).

Let's stay on topic

@KK: What do you think about banning polls in Tactics?

that's a new pic. and i think a different girl too... either way, i've said my peace so no worries here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:@KK: What do you think about banning polls in Tactics?

i don't see how banning polls there will help anything. if someone actually comes up with a new novel strategy and wants to poll other dakkites how they think it might work, why shouldn't he be able to? if the OP is crap to begin with or just a poll and nothing else of value, then it can be reported and closed as spam using the normal procedures without the need for additional restrictions.

The problem with banning something is that if users can make good use of it, the positive is banned along with the negative.

Rather than ban them, I would prefer to move crappy polls into General Discussion, on the grounds of their being off topic.

I'm thinking of a poll something like, What is your favourite energy weapon: 1. Plasma Gun, 2. Lascannon, 3. Ion cannon, and so on.

I don't see why people should not make a poll like that if they find it amusing.

I agree it would be off topic for Tactics, and I would expect a user to yellow flag it to get it moved.

I guess my question is, can anyone think of a positive use for polls in the Tactics thread?

Manchu wrote:I guess my question is, can anyone think of a positive use for polls in the Tactics thread?

They can give an overview of the likelihood of certain tactics being used, perhaps.

As in, do not think of them as validation for using a certain tactic, but rather a reason to take a counter to it.

e.g. "35% of the people use that idea I have never seen used? May be worth considering a counter to it in my list for this upcoming tourney."

As opposed to the usual "Is this good" poll. Just because people do not try to use them well does not mean it cannot happen.

That's a good point, inasmuch as the poll question could be "how many people have seen such-and-such build?" but I'm not sure that such information would be at all reliable and thus not very useful (misleading, in fact). Plus, I see it being used more often as "which unit/weapon/build is better," which is totally meaningless as a poll but potentially very cool as a discussion. I can't prove it in any way, but I think the polls don't add anything to the discussions and probably end up taking away from them (lending to superficiality).

Such polls are misleading. Consider Sturgeon's Law and consider what such polls might mean if it is true. That means that while a majority of posters may favour some opinion, that opinion will be more likely to be stupid, and the poll will simply represent the local noise rather than any significant signal.

I think everyone can agree that multi-sentence posts are always going to be superior to clicking a poll button. But even if the only question is whether the polls actually take away from the discussion or have no effect, there is no reason to have them.

Surely.

I could have genericized my response even further to say "Yes, people could write more relevant tactics polls" but I was trying to come up with an example.

Although even that example could be very relevant if the people also posted--and were perhaps attending the tourney or were locals.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Let's stay on topic

15 pages of blather, and this is the best post of the thread so far.

@kirsanth:

That's true. A poll question like "Was such-and-such build overrepresented at Adepticon last year?" is a lot better. But such a question belongs in the Tournaments board and not Tactics.

I appreciate you trying to answer the question with specific examples, however! I'm wracking my brains for examples, too, not just trying to shoot yours down.

I like the tactics forum. What are people expecting Guilliman to start posting there? I mean seriously that and the Army Lists forums are just fine and what I'd expect to see.

Manchu wrote:@kirsanth:

That's true. A poll question like "Was such-and-such build overrepresented at Adepticon last year?" is a lot better. But such a question belongs in the Tournaments board and not Tactics.

I appreciate you trying to answer the question with specific examples, however! I'm wracking my brains for examples, too, not just trying to shoot yours down.

lets say the upcoming DE have a special army wide rule called "the webway wobble" (obviously made up) that seems very powerful at first glance. someone who plays in a DE heavy meta at his local FLGS comes up with a strategy to combat it and posts it. he then asks people via the poll to try it and vote if it actually worked against the "webway wobble". you now have a totally appropriate poll about tactics in tactics that is banned.

@warboss: That's an even better example but I still think the poll offers little to nothing. So many percent voting "Yes" or "No" doesn't actually tell us anything about the power, how it works, how to make it work, its place in the DE army, how it can be dealt with, etc. Furthermore, anyone can click yes or no regardless of actually trying it or communicating about what circumstances they tried it under. If OP relied on such a poll, woe to him. Actually having to post "yes, and it went like this" is the ideal. If I just posted "yes" or "no" in this hypothetical thread, people would correctly surmise that I was either rude or just making something up (or both)--and that's basically what a poll is. In fact, polls really represent exactly what has been complained about regarding Tactics: a lot of superficial opinions with little substantive discussion and debate.

I'm beginning think the only reason we even think that polls convey information is because we are bombarded by them in the mainstream media.

Look inthe first 3 proposed rules pages. How many topics were started by Captain Solon?

If thats what dakka is going to become in the near future, then YES, its going downhill.

In one sense all polls anywhere in the site are meaningless since they never attract more than about 2% of the members to reply.

The true value of polls is in provoking discussion on a specified set of points.

Every year the media comes up with a poll like Top 100 Films of all time. It's nonsense, of course, but it is fun and can make you think about classic films and maybe watch something new.

@KK: So you think that polls in Tactics stimulate people to post thoughtful reflections on their own wargaming experiences and/or reasoned responses to the experiences of others? I'm not trying to be snide, just having a hard time connecting your example to this situation.

Perhaps every Tactics thread should have a Poll that asks simply:

"should this thread be closed?"

Manchu wrote:@warboss: That's an even better example but I still think the poll offers little to nothing. So many percent voting "Yes" or "No" doesn't actually tell us anything about the power, how it works, how to make it work, its place in the DE army, how it can be dealt with, etc. Furthermore, anyone can click yes or no regardless of actually trying it or communicating about what circumstances they tried it under. If OP relied on such a poll, woe to him. Actually having to post "yes, and it went like this" is the ideal. If I just posted "yes" or "no" in this hypothetical thread, people would correctly surmise that I was either rude or just making something up (or both)--and that's basically what a poll is. In fact, polls really represent exactly what has been complained about regarding Tactics: a lot of superficial opinions with little substantive discussion and debate.

I'm beginning think the only reason we even think that polls convey information is because we are bombarded by them in the mainstream media.

i agree with what you're saying but its frankly no different in regards to polls in tactics or in any other forum on the site. if you're using that to ban polls there, then they should be banned EVERYWHERE because they're not different as a poll anywhere on dakka can be answered without posting yet you want to make the same situation banned in one area. can you post a poll about a paint job on a model? sure.. its allowed.. and people can just click yes or no about whether they like it (i realize you can vote on pics in the gallery but just using this as an example) without actually adding any constructive criticism. can you post a poll about a rules question? sure, it's allowed... and people can click yes or no without actually stating their reasons or proof of their ruling. polls are no more or less useful in tactic than any other part of the forum. if the underlying first post containing the poll is crap and spam, the mods should send the OP a message and lock it just like in any other forum. if the OP keeps starting threads/polls about nothing, then escalate the punishment.

Kilkrazy wrote:In one sense all polls anywhere in the site are meaningless since they never attract more than about 2% of the members to reply.

The true value of polls is in provoking discussion on a specified set of points.

Every year the media comes up with a poll like Top 100 Films of all time. It's nonsense, of course, but it is fun and can make you think about classic films and maybe watch something new.

Citizen Kane is always ranked number one because of Orson Welles' character's love for his man sled. Useless trivia... You just got snowmobiled.

@warboss: I'd say we agree. Outside of the just-for-fun stuff, polls have little use.

Polls can help people decide what the current meta is and react accordingly with his own strategies. If not for nothing, the posts within the poll will tell the story of what a person does for his/her tactics and the poll's poster can then use that information to build an army versus what the current trent is (however, it does not account for regional meta, just a sampling of a website's opionions).

@WarOne: I think we've already covered that one but just to reiterate, such poll results would not be indicative of much and could even be very misleading (I for one would not rely on any such poll). A much more reliable way of figuring that out would be to read through a thread of paragraphs by people who are experiencing/driving the meta across the tournament scenes. Apparently, these are the people who are not very impressed with the Tactics sub-forum as it is.

Just an observation: virtually all non-staff long time posters are at least somewhat dissatisfied, while staff members are all lockstep in how awesome Dakka is.

Yeah, I noticed that too.

Polonius wrote:Just an observation: virtually all non-staff long time posters are at least somewhat dissatisfied, while staff members are all lockstep in how awesome Dakka is.

And the rest of the non-staff long time posters don't care either way and are ignoring the whole thing.

That's true, the idea that it's only the dissatisfied and cranky older posters that are posting in this thread is a decent one. It certainly complies with the overall attitude from the staff that veteran posters are a burden to be tolerated until they finally leave.

It is longtime people most likely to be dissatisfied though... They are the one's who will have seen it all/been there, done that, and will be a lot more annoyed at repetitive/crappy posts, as well as rowdy new-comers. This is the group that would be hardest to please.

Brand new peeps get to look at everything like it's new, open a 'where are the missing primarchs' thread with great interest, likely be impressed and fascinated by the tutorials and p and m blogs... they will also have an easier time adjusting to the way things are as they have to adjust anyways, and will learn Dakka as it is, not as it was. Old timers are like married couples ten years in, you still love your spouse (hopefully), but the thrill and surprise period is over, now it's down to your friendship, patience and a lot of hard work, because it isnt the adrenaline rush it used to be. Still rewarding and apprciated? Sure, but easy to be in a good mood 24/7, not nearly as much as it used to be.

This is gonna sound like rampant ass-kissing, but I really think the mods do a great job, put in a lot of time and in general do what is best for Dakka as whole, despite what the elite may want. Solving the problems mentioned in this thread is difficult at best, and frankly they are problems that arise in just about any social system, micro to macro.

I still think it is more than worth talking about how to improve things, if only because it demonstrates to the powers that be that we all care, but at the same time, let's not lose site of everything Dakka does right while we examine what it does wrong.

Group hug!

@Polonius, HBMC, John: I'm making a list of tactical threads to index (already have your recent one, Polonius). If there are any that stand out, either of your own authorship or others', would you mind PMing a link along to me? Thanks!

Polonius wrote:That's true, the idea that it's only the dissatisfied and cranky older posters that are posting in this thread is a decent one. It certainly complies with the overall attitude from the staff that veteran posters are a burden to be tolerated until they finally leave.

mmmh, the GW approach to customer relations

Polonius wrote:That's true, the idea that it's only the dissatisfied and cranky older posters that are posting in this thread is a decent one. It certainly complies with the overall attitude from the staff that veteran posters are a burden to be tolerated until they finally leave.

A bit like how GW treats their customer base, wouldn't you say?

Polonius wrote:That's true, the idea that it's only the dissatisfied and cranky older posters that are posting in this thread is a decent one. It certainly complies with the overall attitude from the staff that veteran posters are a burden to be tolerated until they finally leave.

fullheadofhair wrote:mmmh, the GW approach to customer relations

H.B.M.C. wrote:A bit like how GW treats their customer base, wouldn't you say?

LOL

There is consensus on something at least lol!

LoL.

At what point does a forum poll have any real statistical value, as distinct from the purposes KK outlined?

It isn't as though there is a cut off point other than thread lock when the data is collated.

The rest of the time it is on going and subject to change.
I appreciate that those later fluctuations may be negligible, but it illustrates there is no "serious" purpose.
At best everyone accepts that they are indicitive at best and just for fun.

I think any poll that has a "I don't care" option is meaningless. Just skews the figures really.

@C B-B:

Well, at the risk of eliciting SRS BIZ macros, I'd say that your analysis is correct and that the conclusion is that polls have a place in the watercooler boards but not in Tactics, Lists, and the like.

Polonius wrote:Just an observation: virtually all non-staff long time posters are at least somewhat dissatisfied, while staff members are all lockstep in how awesome Dakka is.

1: the plural of anecdote is not 'data.'

2:Observation bias. Big time.

I think we should have a poll to see who cares about polls.

All I posted was my observation. I don't see any analysis or conclusion in my post.

WarOne wrote:I think we should have a poll to see who cares about polls.

Look at the top of this page, mate.

Manchu wrote:

WarOne wrote:I think we should have a poll to see who cares about polls.

Look at the top of this page, mate.

Thank you, Manchu.

The restatements were intentional.

I believe I am pointing out that we have run most of this thread's usefulness into the ground much like the Save DakkaDakka thread as now most people have cleared out their frustrations and had their say.

To be honest, if this thread wasn't full of posts saying that the thread was useless it wouldn't be nearly so useless. These threads came up for good reasons that have nearly been lost along the way quite a few times but can still be profitably discussed--barring more meta-commentary. My point was that even this thread--which was created at least in part to poke fun at (some would say troll) another, more serious thread--has in fact continued for a while. So while you may have little interest in trying to improve the site, or just believe that the site either does not need improvement or cannot be improved, others do.

See? The Mods were right - old cranky people run out of steam and need their naptime!

Manchu wrote:To be honest, if this thread wasn't full of posts saying that the thread was useless it wouldn't be nearly so useless. These threads came up for good reasons that have nearly been lost along the way quite a few times but can still be profitably discussed--barring more meta-commentary. My point was that even this thread--which was created at least in part to poke fun at (some would say troll) another, more serious thread--has in fact continued for a while. So while you may have little interest in trying to improve the site, or just believe that the site either does not need improvement or cannot be improved, others do.

No no...you missed my interpretation.

It is not the context of the thread that is lost, but the steam at which people were complaining about the site has cooled off.

Do you think this thread has largely ceased being about the opinion "Is DakkaDakka going down hill?" and has moved on to other topics?

The polls do have value if they are setup objectively. It might only reflect two percent of the Dakka community but it can still be a good indication of the public perception and feelings about the hobby in general. I think most forums do not allow the public access to creating polls. I say don't let people take you into taking away something you have. It's easy to take things for granted. When it's gone that is it.

My experience in life has been that Polonius knows what he is talking about.

OP 2010/09/26 21:19:15
LP 2010/10/01 00:30:20

Lets go by time rather than posts or pages as that includes those of zero value.

Only 4 days, but a lot of intense and intersting discussion, pretty much non stop.
Running parallel with a thread covering the same subject.

Apart from the one word stories what are you listening to threads, it seems darned good value to me.

Amazingly some people have even tried to be constructive and address the issues.

@WarOne: Griping is easy, dealing with gripes is less easy. One point that keeps coming up is that if users want better quality, only users can supply it. I don't know if the causal relationship is accurate, but since these threads have come up at least of few of the "cranky old vets" have created extremely good threads in tactics that have elicited extremely good responses. I think that we can continue brainstorming to good effect here as long as people continue to be committed to addressing their concerns. But, yeah, it'll slow down because griping is easy and dealing with gripes is less easy.

@C B-B: You, sir, have yourself a point there.

Manchu wrote:One point that keeps coming up is that if users want better quality, only users can supply it. I don't know if the causal relationship is accurate, but since these threads have come up at least of few of the "cranky old vets" have created extremely good threads in tactics that have elicited extremely good responses.

Proactive solutions have come from within.

Although I cannot fathom how help could come from outside as everything has seemed to be an internal matter.

Hopefully others can take the reins and take charge of their respective forums they gather in most and help further this trend of good debates and positive reinforcement.

I for instance have stopped posting in the Off-Topic Forum. Well, I started that trend a week ago.

Now I'll focus on my strengths.

Which is....? Hmm...I don't think I could contribute anything positive as I don't really have a given forum to which I could contribute...Perhaps I should find a focus...

insaniak wrote:The thing is, either approach gets complaints. If we leave it alone, people complain that nothing was done about it. If we delete it, people complain that we're power-hungry maniacs who go around deleting people's posts.

I like the type that doesnt get deleted but says something like [content reviewed and edited by mod team]

This way , people can see its deleted to inappropriate content.
And they can see something is been done about it.

Best of both worlds?

LunaHound wrote:

insaniak wrote:The thing is, either approach gets complaints. If we leave it alone, people complain that nothing was done about it. If we delete it, people complain that we're power-hungry maniacs who go around deleting people's posts.

I like the type that doesnt get deleted but says something like [content reviewed and edited by mod team]

This way , people can see its deleted to inappropriate content.
And they can see something is been done about it.

Best of both worlds?

Yeah I know what you mean, when mods do that I just want to (deleted)

[Edited by Mod team, Have a year's vacation from Dakka now and rethink how you interact here]

@WarOne: There are plenty of ways to contribute to Dakka. Generally, figure out what you want to do with this hobby, find people who have done similar things, connect with them, put the resulting knowledge into action, come back here and share the information. What's cool is how this doesn't just end up being a rehashing of the same stuff, but rather people keep finding new ways to enjoy their hobby with people all over.

Manchu wrote:Generally, figure out what you want to do with this hobby, find people who have done similar things, connect with them, put the resulting knowledge into action, come back here and share the information.

Interacting...with PEOPLE?!?!?

But in all seriousness, I think that there is little more that I can contribute that others before me have done so. I frequent the Dakka Swap Shop and attempt to set an example in how to be a good trader. However, there are three moderators there who enforce that already so the individual contribution is not too significant.

I could start an Ork tactica thread as I have learned a great deal about the ins and outs of the Ork army, but I believe other, better posters can emphasize the Ork tactica better as there is already a good tactical article up and a wealth of information to be had by DashofPepper's posts.

Third procrastination I don't feel like finis-

The short version is that there are others out there with the experience and knowledge to contribute immediately that I will have to work towards for the future. Until then, all I can do is watch and learn, post where I can and call it a day and a job well done when I don't have to wait for that suspension to roll around.

AgeOfEgos wrote:[Have a year's vacation from Dakka now and rethink how you interact here]

I see that he got his DCM's money's worth.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:[Have a year's vacation from Dakka now and rethink how you interact here]

I see that he got his DCM's money's worth.

Amusing stuff.

A year? That is a particularly large banhammer. What, in summary terms, was so bad to get kicked of a forum for a year. With some of the stuff I have seen posted on here I wonder what qualifies for a year ban.

Guys, it was just a joke by AgeOfEgos.

No-one has edited that post.

That was a good one!

Clever, clever...

I think it's more worrying that I expected it to be real.

And even more worrying that my mind instantly knew who the Mod in question would be (were it real).

Alpharius wrote:That was a good one!

Clever, clever...

ha - that was amusing - totally got me. What an amusing witch !

edit: had fingers crossed for swear filter.

If he wanted to be really sneaky, he would've edited his own post. As it was, I knew it was a farce since there was no tiny "This message has been edited 1 time..." note at the bottom

Not bad, though! Not bad at all... might be an amusing way to imply what you want to say in certain circumstances, although it'd probably be a problem if it really caught on

I think the mod team is a little too quick on the thread locking button, and some of the passive aggressiveness can be annoying, but overall a much better forum than any other 40k messages boards that I've come across.

One thing to keep in mind if dakka wants to use GW copy-right etc, ESPECIALLY considering their good relations with GW, which they have, the communication on the board has to set a certain standard -- not to mention it is worthwhile taking the time, even working, in the [MOD]'s case to maintain that standard, even improve the standard.

RiTides wrote:If he wanted to be really sneaky, he would've edited his own post. As it was, I knew it was a farce since there was no tiny "This message has been edited 1 time..." note at the bottom

Not bad, though! Not bad at all... might be an amusing way to imply what you want to say in certain circumstances, although it'd probably be a problem if it really caught on

So I guess he should have posted part of it, then gone back in and edited it.

Alpharius wrote:That was a good one!

Clever, clever...

fullheadofhair wrote:

Alpharius wrote:That was a good one!

Clever, clever...

ha - that was amusing - totally got me. What an amusing witch !

edit: had fingers crossed for swear filter.

Just something to lighten the mood...

RiTides wrote:If he wanted to be really sneaky, he would've edited his own post. As it was, I knew it was a farce since there was no tiny "This message has been edited 1 time..." note at the bottom

Not bad, though! Not bad at all... might be an amusing way to imply what you want to say in certain circumstances, although it'd probably be a problem if it really caught on

I didn't think of that. The day is yours RiTides....but I don't sleep. I wait. And plan.

Polonius wrote:Well, I haven't posted an army list here in over a year because there's simply no decent feedback, I rarely give feedback because I'll invariably be told that they don't' want to use the units I suggest, the tactics forum is full of mediocre players passing off their "wisdom" like it's holy writ. P&M is cool, although you have to paint virtually golden demon quality to get any appreciable feedback.

So, yeah, I think things have gone a bit down.

this is pretty true. thou i think there are some really cool things such as the space marine swap

Sageheart wrote:

Polonius wrote:Well, I haven't posted an army list here in over a year because there's simply no decent feedback, I rarely give feedback because I'll invariably be told that they don't' want to use the units I suggest, the tactics forum is full of mediocre players passing off their "wisdom" like it's holy writ. P&M is cool, although you have to paint virtually golden demon quality to get any appreciable feedback.

So, yeah, I think things have gone a bit down.

this is pretty true. thou i think there are some really cool things such as the space marine swap

Actually the part about the P&M is absolutely wrong. The only thing that can be said is, that most people just read and dont comment.
I really want to see all these blogs that dont get feedback and/or get flamed to hell because of "not GD standard".

I have put a few things in P and M blogs and pretty much got zip.
To be fair there were some early stage WIP's. But I specifically wanted some feedback as a newb to the hobby to get an idea where to take the projects.

I am probably not going to bother anymore.
Have had more response to similar concept WHFB posts I started tbh

It could always be worse.....?

The thing is, no news is not good news on the P&M blogs if you are a neurotic like me.

It suggests that people are just being to polite to say how gakky the stuff is :(
So not really!

Where I have asked for feedback there has been little to none. Even someone saying I was barking up the wrong tree would have been useful since I was at the concept stage and wanting to go on and develop ideas.

I get the impression that if it not already in full colour then people won't engage. Which is not helpful if you are new to the hobby and wanting some guidance from more experienced hobbyists/gamers.
By the time the project is in full colour, unless it is a test piece for an army scheme, advice is too late.

The only advice left to give is the "add wash and or dry brush" variety.
WIP entails everything from concept upto finished article
and not just the final touches imho
Sorry am tired and rambling

Dashofpepper wrote:Holy crap Deadshane. That's the story of my life on Dakka.

Great example here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266425.page

Noob says, "I need advice with my list."
I say, "Alright, X, Y, Z."
Noob says, "STFU, not everyone agrees with your drivel on how to play Orks."
Thread spins out of control.

Same goes for P&M Blogs who do not want you to criticise their crap.

If you put something on the internet and hope for 100% positive replies, you are delusional.

If something is fantastic/GD standard, I will praise it... however, if I can do better, I will tell you where you went wrong and how to improve it.

Besides from the gakky search bar, Dakka is my favorite. Besides from the occasional troll (far less than other sites), this site is great. Decent feedback; a nice community. It hasn't changed much since I joined, but I joined because it is a nice forum. I guess I spend the majority of my time on the 40k gen. discussions and dakka discussions, and both of these places are great. Most of the tutorials are great and helpful. Just please, update the search.

AvatarForm wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Holy crap Deadshane. That's the story of my life on Dakka.

Great example here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266425.page

Noob says, "I need advice with my list."
I say, "Alright, X, Y, Z."
Noob says, "STFU, not everyone agrees with your drivel on how to play Orks."
Thread spins out of control.

Same goes for P&M Blogs who do not want you to criticise their crap.

If you put something on the internet and hope for 100% positive replies, you are delusional.

If something is fantastic/GD standard, I will praise it... however, if I can do better, I will tell you where you went wrong and how to improve it.

While i agree with what you've said(to a point), there are ways people can "advise" without being a complete a$$hat. especially to the inexperienced noobs. if they bring it on themselves that's different.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I have put a few things in P and M blogs and pretty much got zip.
To be fair there were some early stage WIP's. But I specifically wanted some feedback as a newb to the hobby to get an idea where to take the projects.

I am probably not going to bother anymore.
Have had more response to similar concept WHFB posts I started tbh

I must be unbelievable good then as i get feedback and have regular readers. Sorry but im not that good and never was at a GD (i plan to in the future but there is much improvement needed first).
Oh and now we both have argued with anecdotal evidence i believe ... But well i really looked to quite a few Blogs and usually only the people who like what is posted give feedback. Of course thats just my personal impression...

What i found actually amusing.. it sure helps if your a female and post on P&M... its like with the welcome board . And i actually found the stuff someone posted from you in the paper tank thread really good .
I surely would have commented on those had i seen them.

Cheers

Dashofpepper wrote:
Holy crap Deadshane. That's the story of my life on Dakka.

Great example here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266425.page

Noob says, "I need advice with my list."
I say, "Alright, X, Y, Z."
Noob says, "STFU, not everyone agrees with your drivel on how to play Orks."
Thread spins out of control.

A better approach might have been:

Noob says, "I need advice with my list."
I say, "Alright, X, Y, Z."
Noob says, "STFU, not everyone agrees with your drivel on how to play Orks."
I yellow flag his post for rudeness.
A moderator takes appropriate action.
The thread doesn't spin out of control.

I must be unbelievable good then as i get feedback and have regular readers. Sorry but im not that good and never was at a GD (i plan to in the future but there is much

improvement needed first).
Oh and now we both have argued with anecdotal evidence i believe ... But well i really looked to quite a few Blogs and usually only the people who like what is posted give feedback. Of course thats just my personal impression...

Must be just me then

But if others are getting feedback in P&M, then that is good news.
off to sulk and feel sorry for myself now...
*Violin*

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I must be unbelievable good then as i get feedback and have regular readers. Sorry but im not that good and never was at a GD (i plan to in the future but there is much

improvement needed first).
Oh and now we both have argued with anecdotal evidence i believe ... But well i really looked to quite a few Blogs and usually only the people who like what is posted give feedback. Of course thats just my personal impression...

Must be just me then

But if others are getting feedback in P&M, then that is good news.
off to sulk and feel sorry for myself now...
*Violin*

Sometimes people just miss things, you know?

Why not link to your pics in your sig?

There are some amazing P&M threads out there, but they got lost easily.
The best fix would be a better search function, but I understand that Legoburner is a busy man and that's a monster job. Until it's done, a temporary fix might be the use of subfora to streamline out the content. Faction specific, setting specific, stage of development specific- it wouldn't really matter, it'd just be to help people find projects they are interested in.
For tactics, using tags for posts would be really useful. [Casual] and [Competative] tags would help people choose threads to read and so on.
I've gotten better feedback in WFB tactics and lists than in 40K. 40K went downhill maybe a year ago (possibly even before that) and hasn't really had much going on. Shep and a couple of others discussing the Tyranid codex was a really good read though, I thoroughly enjoyed it even though I don't play nids (or 40K anymore, really).

Sometimes people just miss things, you know?

Why not link to your pics in your sig

?

You expect me to come up with a simple but effective solution like that?
To quote Bugs Bunny, "He don't know me vewwy well, do he?"

Going by the number of views though....

*sulks some more*

Thanks, duly noted.

We dislike sub-fora because of the dangers of ghettoisation, and of marginalisation of less popular content areas.

Shall I start a "Vote for this 3" sticky thread? The original purpose was to get people visiting the Gallery. I think it has been reasonably successful.

Other possibilities are to look at the Articles, or the P&M Blogs. Forums are not intended to be a long term archive of easily accessible content. It is only the persistence and the searchability of hypertext that makes them any use for that purpose.

It should be noted that the majority of visitors to the site never post or vote anything, they only read and look.

I agree that too many sub-fora leads to stagnation (any board with dedicated forums for each army runs into that). As Dakka grows, new boards have been added when the nature of discussion changes. Seperating Competitive and Casual Tactics is a pretty organic split. It's not even a quality issue: I'd love to talk Apoc tactics, or how best to use the contents of the Ork Battleforce in a game, but that's a different conversation than discussing how Mech IG should handle SW missile spam.

Competitive tactics are only limited by the rules, while all other tactical conversations have limits based on comp, theme, model availability, etc.

I've not been using Dakka for too long although I have come to love and appreciate it. I have to agree with what many have said and my own observations, in that as more and more people use DakkaDakka, there is less and less [quality] content and more and more 'drivel' and 'noobs'.
I don't blame Dakka, it's inevitable. It's what happens when it's good, it attracts the masses and the masses spoil it. To be honest, I think it will continue to get worse (although I'm impressed it's been noticed and potentially combated) until it loses popularity and then the 'regulars' can return at it'll rise in quality again. Like a cycle of life. Or lack of a life as the case may be.

When I first joined there was nothing but quality content and willing and helpful people. Yes some could be harsh or very down-to-earth, but if you gave them the respect they deserved and cooperated then it was an absolutely great place to be. These days there are a higher amount of posters and a lower level of IQ, I reckon it to be inevitable but a problem none-the-less. You get ridiculous questions and posts such as those continually dragging something off topic or asking if a Space Marine has a willy.
Ultimately, DakkaDakka was flawed by its own quality.

Yes, I don't believe Dakka is as good as it once was. I do believe however that the moderators/people running this site are still doing a helluva job and that there's nothing really that can be done.

A rating system in which players rate each other (thumbs up/down) could be a good idea for quality control, ensuring the 'good' or expecienced opinions are those that are valued most and the opinions of the less helpful are neglected. EDIT: I TAKE IT BACK, SEE ELMODIDLY BELOW FOR MORE SENSE...

Yes it's not as good as it used to be. But that's because it used to be so, so good. It couldn't exactly improve any further and its quality attracted the masses. It happens with all sorts of things.



On a personal note, I find to ask if people want help to be a good solution. For example, I've got a thread in tactics where people can ask for help (and my article) whereby I can actually contribute to those who want it rather than those who ignore it.

I don't think that a rating system is valid because it immediately gives some people a score card in which to obsess over and get their friends to +1 them whenever they fart. Some websites have regular thread locks because of the emergence of threads asking for +1's. It also immediately gives people a view that those with less than average scores means their viewpoint is not as valid as others. It serves no purpose other than to pander to the insecurities of those who wish to feel superior over other members.

People tend to get recogised for the quality of posts, relevant topics, good insights and structured discussions rather than having 10K points of 10K posts.

Good Point actually, I quickly came to recognise the quality opinion of some by seeing them post myself or hearing about them. For example, Hulksmash and UlholyMartyr are the only people I'd personally go to for Space Wolf advice, but I guess the newer people to the forum don't notice, but live and learn I guess.

I take the support for like/dislike (edit).



I really think when it comes to the problems in tactics/army lists people should say WHY they should take such and such advice, not that they simply should.

So basically what you are saying is you want to be able to erase any posts you don't like. Why should you have this power over anyone else here at Dakka?

Dashofpepper wrote:

Heffling wrote:

I am also of the opinion that any posts that meet the following criteria, as determined by a moderator, should warrant the poster getting an immediate one week (or longer for multiple offenses) suspension:

1) Personal Attacks
2) Implying the author of or respondant to a post is lacks intelligence
3) Inference that their idea lacks intelligence
4) Obvious attempts at trolling or inciting negative emotional responses

If only. =p

My only real beef with the moderator team is that when you report a personal attack, it doesn't get deleted or modded out, they just add a post that says, "Modquisition now on" or "Cool it with the personal attacks." So that personal attack sits there, libel or slander that it may be. I probably have people jumping on me as often as anyone else here does (or more) and from posting trends, I can see when someone has been suspended or banned (including myself from time to time).

When someone writes, "Dash, everything you write is drivel, go back to your lame life and stop polluting the internet," my instinctive reply is, "Amazing contribution you're making to Dakka yourself there. I would encourage you to stop posting until you have something useful to say. FYI, I'm not holding my breath, I'm not expecting much."

Typically, I report the post. 50% of the time, a moderator posts "Moderation now on, cut the personal attacks" or something, and that's it. 30% of the time, a moderator messages me and says, "It wasn't that bad" and that's it. 15% of the time, nothing happens. 5% of the time, the offending post is edited out and the personal attacks attacks are removed.

Its pretty damn hard to NOT respond to someone calling you out specifically and attacking you. It would be easier if moderators removed offending content instead of simply saying, "Moderation on now." 100% of the posts that I write that people take offense to are in response to a personal attack. If personal attacks were removed and not just noted....posts that I write that are potentially offensive would disappear. Seriously. If someone punches me below the belt, I'm going to stomp on their head until they are dead. Here on Dakka, where the fights are verbal, I'm expected to not retaliate....but the instigation isn't removed, just noted.

I'd be a happy camper if that policy changed. Hell, me being a moderator would *also* make me a very easy to get along with kind of guy. I wouldn't ever have to be acidic with someone, because the personal attacks I'm responding to would just get deleted as inappropriate. Then I could freely go back to bringing content to Dakka without fear of my name getting dragged through the mud, my efforts denigrated, and people calling me names because I could just zap out that crap.

IMO one of the main problems with the 40k tactics section is simply the game itself right now. A lot of the big tournament players posted their tactics long ago and.. the same tactics still apply because nothing has changed in like 2 years

Space wolves are a solid list no doubt, I use them in 'ard boyz but its nothing new.. Just your generic shooting + counter assault list that you used to be able to build with the 4th ed marine book. Whats the tactics? Same as before.. deploy units in firing lanes then assault whatever gets past your guns

IG has dominated for years.. nothing new. All you see are like hundreds of threads about the same stuff. Yes if you use artillery + vets you will win.. if you use storm troopers you wont, moving on

Basically its just a severe case of repetition. Perhaps dark eldar will alter the meta game by a LARGE degree and force people to actually play the game differently. Or they'll be a gimmick army and suck, we'll see. Until SW and IG are knocked off their throne do not expect the tactics section to be any more useful, its all been said

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Id like a "reputation" system like other forums have.

Reputation or popularity?

There should be a difference, but usually isn't one.

This is true. On WAU we tried a Modelling thread contest where readers could vote for who had the best thread for the month... it turned into a popularity contest where someone with 3 rubbish pics and barely any explanation won cos he got his buddies on to vote. Popularity does not equal quality.

Shadowbrand wrote:Honestly dakka is growing and with growth comes trouble. At least their are SOME rules here.

These are all what comes with success.

Growth = trouble?

Sounds like the attitude of some of the close-knit gaming groups who stare at new members like they have 2 heads or something... As for rules, the Mods seem very fair here, inlike Whineseer where if you break wind while reading a thread you get a warning.

ph34r wrote:A bit worse than it used to be perhaps. That comes with getting more members, it seems.

Again, afraid of change?

Reecius wrote:Those are some good suggestions, dude. I think loosening up on the moderation will help a lot. We need a little drama to engage people! If it's all smiles and politeness it's boring as hell.

Agreed. Try criticising someone on P&M and watch them have an emogakfit

Agreed. Try criticising someone on P&M and watch them have an emogakfit

Thought the role of the P&M forum was to allow for a discussion or critique of work. Not to criticise the person.
Not sure if that is what you intended but that how it comes across.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Agreed. Try criticising someone on P&M and watch them have an emogakfit

Thought the role of the P&M forum was to allow for a discussion or critique of work. Not to criticise the person.
Not sure if that is what you intended but that how it comes across.

Last time I heard, critique involved criticism. Its all about the attitude of the OP. If you cannot handle criticism of your work, dont post it.
If you think it was perfect, you do not need the feedback of an Internet forum to confrim this.

Though I did not intend my post to read 'person' (literal), but the person's work (associative).

Okay, thanks for clarifying
FWIW don't think many would disagree
The word "criticism" carries negative connotations which can be misunderstood.
Critique as far as I understand it implies dialogue and constructive comment.

AvatarForm wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Kirasu wrote:Id like a "reputation" system like other forums have.

Reputation or popularity?

There should be a difference, but usually isn't one.

This is true. On WAU we tried a Modelling thread contest where readers could vote for who had the best thread for the month... it turned into a popularity contest where someone with 3 rubbish pics and barely any explanation won cos he got his buddies on to vote. Popularity does not equal quality.

You tell that to 50 Cent. Oh...

AvatarForm wrote:

Shadowbrand wrote:Honestly dakka is growing and with growth comes trouble. At least their are SOME rules here.

These are all what comes with success.

Growth = trouble?

Sounds like the attitude of some of the close-knit gaming groups who stare at new members like they have 2 heads or something... As for rules, the Mods seem very fair here, inlike Whineseer where if you break wind while reading a thread you get a warning.

ph34r wrote:A bit worse than it used to be perhaps. That comes with getting more members, it seems.

Again, afraid of change?

Without trying to sound Elitist, it's not so much that growth = trouble, but generally the more and more popular something gets, the more its quality begins to fall. This is even more true when the content is not controlled (eg. Public Forum).
If more people use the site then there will inevitably more 'drivel' that comes with it, I and many other members (hence this topic) have witnessed the gradual decline in post quality as the popularity of Dakka has increased...

Once again, without trying to sound elitist, but if you have more participants in University Challenge for example, then the more the average score and quality will drop.


As Reecius said "Dakka is a lot nicer of a place now, for which there is something to be said, but it is also so much less useful in those regards than it used to be." and he's right, Dakka is a lot more polite and is a lot more 'widespread', no longer is it dominated by certain individuals who are seen as almost celebrities (eg. Stelek). However it appears that alongside this, the members who's opinion should be valued have lost influence and as such you get anyone claiming to know best rather than someone actually being respected as a generally good authority on the subject. For example, when I first joined Sanctjud was a great source of advice on Chaos Space Marines and I truly respected and valued his opinion as such, and so would many others. However, as more people have joined, Sanctjud has lost influence and now there is no longer an almost 'authority' on certain subjects.
People have a lot more say, but this means the listeners have a lot less worth listening to IMHO.

Whilst I don't believe a ranking system to be the solution as it would - as some have said - quickly become a popularity contest and/or inaccurate, I wonder whether something along the lines of the 'reputable traders' section in the Swap Shop would work for helping quality control in Tactics and Army Lists?
This could HOPEFULLY mean that people who post good quality help and advice are given recognition for it and then people will often know where to go for such advice... I'm not sure, it's just a thought but I think it should be considered.

How exactly is it going downhill?

phantommaster wrote:How exactly is it going downhill?

We're on page 18. Try reading some of the other 17.

I just read through a fair bit of the thread and figured I'd post/quote what I believe should be listened to if we are to gain anything from this thread...

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

olympia wrote:Some of the most prolific posters, I would wager, are also the most prone to hit the "report post" button. Surely the mods must have the statistics on users who report the most posts. Perhaps some sort of counseling forum could be made available to these sensitive souls.

There is some truth in that.
However it may be that they are using a larger part of the forum than 'regular posting' users and are finding where problem posts are.

However the more prolific posters also generate a good percentage of the reports from other users.

Most astonishingly the people who most often shout loudest in threads like this one (as has been said earlier a thread like this pops up every few months) are often the ones who have the biggest user case files, and generate a largenumber of reports against them.

To be honest I want robust discussion. I think it is also alright to not want to give a big hug to every dakka user. It is also to be expected that as new users arrive (and dakka has been, for the last year or so the fastest growing wargaming website in terms of true user numbers) there will be the same posts that appeared back when I joined in 2000 and then reappeared every few months ever since. Which is why I often don't reply to them unles sthere is something profound or the rules/background changes have put a new perspective on things. Also why I do 90+% of my posting in the DCM mosh pit where despite being able to discuss anything except users who don't have access to the forum we end up discussing little man-dollies.

I love this site.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:It's not the same as it used to be, although I'm not sure if that is bad, good or a bit of both. I'd probably plump for the latter.

I certainly remember some of the flame fests on the old Dakka when two (or more individuals) disagreed with on another, although, it was often funny. Not because I laugh at people in anger, but rather, often there was this cool wit between the two rivals, an arsenal of put downs that would make me chuckle. Almost some kind of gentlemanly combat of ideals, obviously it could turn nasty, but I remember more of the half serious put downs and comments more than anything else. I still see that often today, and several posters have a habit of making me chuckle quite heartidly in OT and around the boards.

Of course to new users, that may seem overly hostile, but I don't think it was as bad as some folks think it was, as I probably wouldn't have stuck around this long if it had been. The Mods have always been good here in my opinion, and I have a lot of respect for them.

*snip!*

More members means more problems, and I think thats the issue, thats not really a negative issue though, as it stimulates more conversation overall. You're going to get excellent new posters, as well as poor ones, and you just need to be more willing to accept you will see the odd thread you wish you hadn't opened. I'd rather have increasing numbers than decreasing for certain though, as even the vets among us can sometimes decide todays the day and hang up the gaming boots. New blood is always going to be important, and I think we just need to adjust to an evolving gaming populace.

The odd polite nudge in the right direction now or then couldn't hurt em mind.

Reecius wrote:Yes. Some of the good stuff is still good.

YMTD, WIP Blogs, Tournament Discussions, News and Rumors, all still great.

Tactics and army building has some of the worst advice you could ever have the misfortune of reading. [Not quite THAT bad...]

Dakka is a lot nicer of a place now, for which there is something to be said, but it is also so much less useful in those regards than it used to be.

That though, is only this one man's opinion of course.

Shadowbrand wrote:Honestly dakka is growing and with growth comes trouble. At least their are SOME rules here.

These are all what comes with success.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Once upon a time if you posted something stupid, you'd get called on it. These days, if you call on someone for posting something stupid, you get a warning.

Ketara wrote:I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude to get their point across.

If the noob in question isn't going to take your advice, he's not going to take your advice. It doesn't matter if you're polite, or offensive, or type it out, gift wrap it, and mail it to him. I mean, does anyone here really think being offensive to someone is more likely to make them come around to your point of view? Really?

Will someone please very slowly and carefully tell me how posting to someone that their idea is 'friggin stupid' in any way contributes to helping someone's tactical capabilities develop? Because there's clearly something I'm missing here.

neil101 wrote:only being in dakka a few days , but i find it both relaxed mature , reasonable , educational friendly and inspiring , which are qualities you will rarely find on any forum let alone one to do with competetive battles

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.

[Thought for the day: Saying WHY you are right means you are right. Saying you simply ARE right means you are wrong...]

Kilkrazy:

Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.

Nurglitch wrote:Maybe it's my philosophy background, but I'm used to being able to tell someone "Your ideas sucks, and here's why", have them reply in kind, and then go get a beer and continue the discussion once the conference particulars are done for the day. I'm used to casual rudeness so long as it's concerned with building better ideas. Being rude because someone thinks it's funny or because you want to take someone down a peg, to insult someone, that's obviously not okay.

MajorTom11 wrote:It is longtime people most likely to be dissatisfied though... They are the one's who will have seen it all/been there, done that, and will be a lot more annoyed at repetitive/crappy posts, as well as rowdy new-comers. This is the group that would be hardest to please.

Brand new peeps get to look at everything like it's new, open a 'where are the missing primarchs' thread with great interest, likely be impressed and fascinated by the tutorials and p and m blogs... they will also have an easier time adjusting to the way things are as they have to adjust anyways, and will learn Dakka as it is, not as it was. Old timers are like married couples ten years in, you still love your spouse (hopefully), but the thrill and surprise period is over, now it's down to your friendship, patience and a lot of hard work, because it isnt the adrenaline rush it used to be. Still rewarding and apprciated? Sure, but easy to be in a good mood 24/7, not nearly as much as it used to be.

This is gonna sound like rampant ass-kissing, but I really think the mods do a great job, put in a lot of time and in general do what is best for Dakka as whole, despite what the elite may want. Solving the problems mentioned in this thread is difficult at best, and frankly they are problems that arise in just about any social system, micro to macro.

I still think it is more than worth talking about how to improve things, if only because it demonstrates to the powers that be that we all care, but at the same time, let's not lose site of everything Dakka does right while we examine what it does wrong.

Group hug!

Manchu wrote: One point that keeps coming up is that if users want better quality, only users can supply it. I don't know if the causal relationship is accurate, but since these threads have come up at least of few of the "cranky old vets" have created extremely good threads in tactics that have elicited extremely good responses. I think that we can continue brainstorming to good effect here as long as people continue to be committed to addressing their concerns. But, yeah, it'll slow down because griping is easy and dealing with gripes is less easy.

Blue wall AAARGH

But those are only opinions Dave.
Whilst they may or may not be valid, it would have been more useful to collate the more constructive ideas proposed into a summary imho

Will let someone else do that!
Just to be clear am not volunteering!

True, but opinions lead to ideas and ideas lead to solutions.
Providing they're valid that is...

We probably don't need to start discussing the same opinions again, but a consolidation of possible solutions could be useful.
There are 18 pages of opining. A distillation of the the (possible) solutions would save having to wade through the entire thread to see what people have come up with already to address the issues.

Not to beat a dead horse here...but I really feel the Like function would help alleviate some of the issues.

At least, reflecting on the thread I see users discouraged on spending time posting quality content, when it is quickly bumped off the page by numerous other threads. Regardless of how altruistic we might all imagine ourselves to be, there is always ego in the need to share/show & tell online. We post not only to get feedback but to also feed that need for recognition. Again, the Like function can help high quality threads maintain durability and encourage such content.

If that incentive is not present due to a flood of content pressing your modeling/tactic advice off the page....well then you can't simply tell users to provide better content....they'll simply start a blog where they can control the content. Inversely, I think the Like function would serve as motivation to share within the Dakka community.




In the end though, I love Dakka with or without a Like feature. I get modeling inspiration here, threads that make me chuckle over my coffee and great feedback from the DCMs. I consider my DCM donation and any time spent posting to help others an absolute steal for what I get back.

Well, I generally enjoy English forums over the egocentric forums here in Germany.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Not to beat a dead horse here...but I really feel the Like function would help alleviate some of the issues.

At least, reflecting on the thread I see users discouraged on spending time posting quality content, when it is quickly bumped off the page by numerous other threads. Regardless of how altruistic we might all imagine ourselves to be, there is always ego in the need to share/show & tell online. We post not only to get feedback but to also feed that need for recognition. Again, the Like function can help high quality threads maintain durability and encourage such content.

I can't go for the 'like' button, simply because I don't put it past certain weirdos to make multiple sock puppet accounts and/or fill their self-aggrandising/begging sigs with 'I'm trying to make 40k a great game, please please please remember to 'like' all my posts!!' or other needy and somewhat creepy stuff.

I'm not in favour of a popularity contest, given that many would just vote for 'characters' rather than content. Certain spamming posters (or 'prolific' if you want to be polite) would suffocate us even further with their squalid attention seeking. It smacks of bread and circuses to me, appeasing the masses and driving up a tickbox counter, at the potential cost of quality.

I do entirely agree with you about the DCM forum though, it's a community within the community and as Dakka gets larger, keeps a few names and faces in good contact as a sounding board for each other.

You know what would potentially alleviate some of the issues with the "Like" button?

If only the admins could actually see how many times a post was liked, and get an exploded view of who opted to like it.

One reason I favor a "like" feature is that it allows for positive feedback of quality posts that don't necessarily need comment.

I concede the point that the feature could be abused by the more attention seeking, but let's be honest: those posters are already about as obnoxious as possible. I don't care how many people "like" a thread about which Primarch would make the best lathe operator; I care how many people like my threads.

Giving the like feature will allow the silent majority to give kudos that I think a lot of great posts don't get.

There is that aspect Polonius
For eample rather than posting this meaningless reply a +1 on the old thumbs up would do.
The way you see it is a very responsible approach and would be fine if that could be guaranteed.
However, being somewhat of a cynical old geezer, can't help feeling some of the concerns that have already been expressed.

Not that big a step from clique to click.
Must apologise for a dreadful soundbite.

Well, in addition to disagree with Stompa for a moment and agree with Polonius, you could easily weight the Like button on whatever factors you feel would remove Like spam. I believe Lego mentioned something similar earlier in the thread. For example;

Post Count
Gallery Votes
DCM Status
Article Edits
etc.

So essentially you would make those whom contribute to Dakka weighted more whereas multiple accounts or non-contributing Like spammers would have little weight. You could also make it exponentially harder to acquire Likes on a thread;

Thread Rep
1-10 Likes bumps up the rep one for each Like
10-20 Likes bumps up the rep one for each 2 Likes
20-30 Likes bumps up the rep one for each 3 Likes
etc.

Just throwing ideas around and of course those numbers are just examples.

Generally, if a discussion forum gets a 20-page discussion on whether or not it's going downhill... it's not. It's when you just have, like, three replies that you have to worry. That means that people don't care and aren't visiting the site. The only measure by which anyone could tell if Dakka is "going downhill" is to look at the unique visitors statistics from the sitelogs. If there is a significant decrease in the number of visitors, then the site is losing value as a resource. If not, then it might just be losing value for you.

There have always been useless posters, pointless threads, and dumb arguments on Dakka (not to mention the entire bloody internet). People in general just have a tendency to notice them more when they're more mentally invested in a site than they may have been before (in other words, the more you post and read the more likely you're going to see the crap). As an example, I haven't been all that active the last couple of years, so I don't really have a negative opinion of Dakka's current crop of active posters. I'm sure, though, that if I dug around I'd just be of the opinion that it's pretty much the same level of noise as there was back in the old days when DakkaDakka was still actually a store.

One of the first skills anyone should learn on the internet is how to mentally filter out the crap without having to rely on ignore lists or a moderation team. I barely even notice idiots anymore, since they almost universally have great big red flags in their posts that I can recognize practically subconsciously. My mind just skips over those posts.

So If you're of the mind that the quality of Dakka is declining, take some time to think as to whether it actually is, or if you just care more now than you did when you were a new poster. It might simply be the case that you're more familiar with the site, so the noisy posts jump out from the background more, rather than blending in with all the "new".

Manchu wrote:Does anyone think there is a legitimate reason to allow the posting of polls in tactics? It seems to me that any tactical question should be answered with at least a couple of sentences rather than by voting.

I'm a few days late to respond, but not past the statute of limitations, I imagine.

I posted this poll in the tatctic thread last week because I don't have a lot of experience with Codex: Space Marines and wanted feedback before I did something silly with my Mark III armor figures.

I didn't want to make a sternguard loadout that sucks and in a year be: "Man, those are sweet-looking Sternguard. Too bad you never use them...because they suck...and you're dumb!'

However, I put in the "please explain" next to options 2 and 3. Did everyone explain? Not if you go by vote counts. But it did generate very useful discussion (IMHO). Would a thread that said "Please help me with my sternguard loadout" have helped me as much? Not sure.


Edit: Polls like this one are better suited in 40k General, IMHO.

Nah, a "Like" feature is just an ego trip for those who regularly post and need gratification. Those with lower like scores would be ignored by those who favour the score system, believing those with lower scores to have a lesser opinion, as inferred by some here, which goes some way towards elitism and arrogance.

This is supposed to be a community and by adding a like feature it instantly becomes a segmented society.

Serious question; Why do you need to know how many times people have liked your posts?

Elmodiddly wrote:
Serious question; Why do you need to know how many times people have liked your posts?

Serious answer: many of my posts are lengthy and require actual effort. It'd be nice to know I'm not wasting my time.

Polonius, you aren't wasting your time when you post.

You'll know if you're missing the target when people don't bother to write an intelligent reply.

Polonius wrote:

Elmodiddly wrote:
Serious question; Why do you need to know how many times people have liked your posts?

Serious answer: many of my posts are lengthy and require actual effort. It'd be nice to know I'm not wasting my time.

I'd say the number of views should let you know you're not wasting your time.
Would you rather have people throwing you a thumbs up everytime you post something?

I mean, I don't know about you...but I don't want people to just post incomprehensible rubbish in reply to my posts that I've spent such a length of time crafting. Sadly, given that this is the Internet and the level of maturity exhibited on said medium...I'd far prefer silence from the huddled masses of inept text messaging tweens/powergaming spankers, with a few thoughtful posts every so often who point out a mistake or something that could be altered to make my post/suggestion work better.

Kilkrazy wrote:Polonius, you aren't wasting your time when you post.

You'll know if you're missing the target when people don't bother to write an intelligent reply.

I wouldn't say that, because there's a certain kind of poster who flatout refuses to post intelligent replies, and just posts for the sake of posting.

The amount of "+1" posts lately should tell you that it's sadly not the case.

I mean, really how hard is it to type out "I agree with the sentiments that <Insert Name Here> put out. Well done!"

I guess, like most writers, I value feedback. Giving people the ability to tell me that they like my work, or agree with my points, without necessarily having them write a post in response is appealling to me. It's also appealing to be able to show appreciate for a thread where I can't really contribute, but I'm enjoying all the same (the current Nid tactics thread is a great example).

I mean, I love intercting and discussing my posts, and maybe I'm idealizing a concept that won't work well in practice, but I the like button could legiimize the practice of providing support while eliminating the "+1" posts.

If implemented I think that a likes per post or some other ratio should be displayed under the username and not just the number of likes. This would encourage quality posting and not all the off topic useless stuff.

I did recently wander back here after hearing that DE were coming out, and thought they might lure me back in. I thought the models looked nice, took 1 look at GW current prices, laughed and closed the page.

Is this place going downhill? Absolutely.

Why? Because once upon a time you had to be smart enough to actually contribute something to the strategy forum or you would be flamed out. And you also had to have the cojones necessary to stand behind your ideas and support them.

Anyone who is smart enough to see what units are and are not effective is also capable of seeing that Warhammer is a terrible game system filled with piss poor rules and sloppy writing. And anyone who had the necessary ..."umph" to last here also wasn't afraid to long ago tell GW where they can stick it after the umpteenth price increase. (4 flimsy pieces of plastic for $50? no thanks.)

Whats left here are the people who lack either intelligence, (Every unit is useful, just use tactics!) or manhood, (I'll complain about the prices but still buy the product!) or both. (GW apologists)

IntoTheRain wrote:Whats left here are the people who lack either intelligence, (Every unit is useful, just use tactics!) or manhood, (I'll complain about the prices but still buy the product!) or both. (GW apologists)

Very ummm... 'intelligent' summary.

Just because you dont approve of GW's methods, doesn't mean that you will want to stop enjoying a hobby you've already invested your time and money into. I for one haven't brought anything in a long time but I still contribute to Dakka and enjoy it for the most part.
I do believe it's not as good as it once was, but I also believe such a sweeping statement from someone who's criticising a lack of intelligence is both ironic and humorous.

You could always put a poll on your post for like/dislike or agree/disagree (assuming you weren't using the poll for anything else...)

Polonius wrote:I guess, like most writers, I value feedback. Giving people the ability to tell me that they like my work, or agree with my points, without necessarily having them write a post in response is appealling to me. It's also appealing to be able to show appreciate for a thread where I can't really contribute, but I'm enjoying all the same (the current Nid tactics thread is a great example).

I mean, I love intercting and discussing my posts, and maybe I'm idealizing a concept that won't work well in practice, but I the like button could legiimize the practice of providing support while eliminating the "+1" posts.

With respect, (this isn't me having a go), but isn't that about stroking ones ego rather than adding to the conversation? Should people have things to say; they say it, surely they don't need to score you as well? Support and ideas is presented with exactly that; support and ideas, not by adding to a tally.

I'm apparently alone in this, so I'll just bow out of my advocacy.

+1

Sorry couldn't resist- slaps own wrist!

Have to agree.
One ought to post unconditionally.
Yes we all like receiving signs that our efforts are welcomed and appreciated, but there is little need to expect any sort of reward.

With regard to +1 posts is there no way that some members could be provide a cleaning up service?
There could be a very strictly limited criteria for a second teir moderation as it has been stated that mods can't be everywhere and see all posts.

I would only advocate certain types that are clear cut posts that are pointless.

IntoTheRain wrote:

Whats left here are the people who lack either intelligence, (Every unit is useful, just use tactics!) or manhood, (I'll complain about the prices but still buy the product!) or both. (GW apologists)

oh wow, speaking of people who need to be suspended for trolling.

Glad the thread is still alive, but hasn't this gone on long enough?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, since gailbrathe or whatever his name left, I feel like there will be a lot less bickering

IntoTheRain wrote:Whats left here are the people who lack either intelligence, (Every unit is useful, just use tactics!) or manhood, (I'll complain about the prices but still buy the product!) or both. (GW apologists)

Or people that play games other than GW-designed games and value the modeling forum or the general miniatures-related gaming discussions that go on outside of the (somewhat insular) Tactics and Rules forums.

Dakka has evolved into a not-entirely-40k centered forum over the years.

IntoTheRain wrote:Whats left here are the people who lack either intelligence, (Every unit is useful, just use tactics!) or manhood, (I'll complain about the prices but still buy the product!) or both. (GW apologists)

Having the disposable cash to buy expensive, unnecessary things is a lack of manhood? Maybe you just need a better job.

This is what is wrong with Dakka.
We allow ourselves to get sucked into meaningless side issues prompted by a trolling post.
Cue pictures as above.
and away we go...

Monster Rain wrote:

IntoTheRain wrote:Whats left here are the people who lack either intelligence, (Every unit is useful, just use tactics!) or manhood, (I'll complain about the prices but still buy the product!) or both. (GW apologists)

Having the disposable cash to buy expensive, unnecessary things is a lack of manhood? Maybe you just need a better job.

Lets see I can buy a RV and go fishing, and cruising up and down the country.
Spending small amounts on plastic models for when I'm bored.

Or I can spend loads of money on models, and not have a life like Monster Rain Duh.

Nah I could never be that sad. Now where are my ignition keys

Lots of good discussion in here, but it looks as if we're at the end.

Thanks to everyone for participating!