Well, I haven't posted an army list here in over a year because there's simply no decent feedback, I rarely give feedback because I'll invariably be told that they don't' want to use the units I suggest, the tactics forum is full of mediocre players passing off their "wisdom" like it's holy writ. P&M is cool, although you have to paint virtually golden demon quality to get any appreciable feedback.
Search function is terrible; getting that fixed would be a huge asset. Mods that crack down on pointless stuff are frustrating at the least.
P&M is great if you subscribe but if you don't good luck finding it again with search.
Rumor and news has gone downhill.
There is nothing to really "engage" readers. Even worse with the mods on every thread locking or saying this or that is not how we want it done (written in rude tones) it does even more to disengage followers.
I say loosen up; get some dedicated writers who can engage the community like bols readers. Find more people to write articles in the P&M tutorial section and have some competitions (reviews, painting, conversions & the like).
Also, why not some sort of tracking system for winning/losing games. Give people a reason to come enter tonight’s battles and see how they stack up against other dakka users. Maybe even some sort of fun ranking system like the one that appears under your name.
Those are some good suggestions, dude. I think loosening up on the moderation will help a lot. We need a little drama to engage people! If it's all smiles and politeness it's boring as hell.
As for OP's question, I have had to ask myself that recently. I've only been a member for a year but I told myself a year ago that if I was still posting now (i.e., that the site was keeping my attention) I would become a DCM.
As for a board-by-board breakdown:
News and Rumors: This has been recycled Warseer threads since I've been here. No change.
P&M: Agree with Polonius regarding eliciting feedback.
Lists & Tactics: I don't think it was any better a year ago. The best approach is to alert those users whose opinion you respect that you have a thread up (the "My Friends' Threads" button is great for this, too).
YMDC: I have avoided participating in this as much as possible since joining. I would say it has calmed somewhat in my year.
Background: Very, very little originality. So no change. I gave up seriously trying to contribute a while back.
Fantasy & WM stuff: I've never much availed myself of it, so no opinion.
Large Scale, etc: I've paid a lot of attention to this thread and tried to foster and encourage quality. Unfortunately, it's mostly a haven for semi-monthly 3.5 v. 4th ed debates.
Survivor Games, etc: Another area I've put a lot of effort into. I'd say this section has seen a lot of improvement in the last year.
OT: Totally lost my attention. I would join with those advocating closing it but I think that would just lead to OT in the the other boards.
I don't have much prior experience with dakka, but having a few articles on a bi-weekly schedule would be cool. Seeing the same news up on the front page for a month is a bit of a downer after awhile.
I agree with your assessments. The only thing I would point out is that while YMDC is still fantastic here for rules issues, always has been, the tactics and lists sections have gone straight to hell.
We used to have ongoing discussions about minute details of list building and tactics and the amount of valuable data that came out of there was staggering. Hard facts, not opinions. That was the rule.
I miss that. Now we get people that postulate terrible ideas and when the inaccuracy of these ideas is questioned, they get defensive and start throwing opinions and "well that's how I play it" defenses which are childish and don't add anything of value.
Id like a "reputation" system like other forums have. Years ago when I was on LO a lot (before I got sick of euro centric forums) you could see who was fairly well respected for their opinions. Heresy uses a system like that as well
if you posted a good post or tactic, etc.. People could give you positive feedback and stuff like that. We all know post count doesnt mean much since people can get 1000 posts in a WEEKEND arguing about fluff
Goes back to engaging people to read stuff. I think dakka is alright, but I agree that I never read the 40k tactics anymore and the fantasy section has so few posters its not very relevant.
Yeah, Tactics generally make me wince. Most army lists posted don't actually want feed back or can't answer how their units function together to defend their choices. I've very, very rarely popped into those forums of late. I have to say the Tournament Forum is one of the few that I really enjoy posting in. I also like the P&M, News and Rumors, and sometimes Discussions. Basically I'm only thinking that Tactics and 40k Army lists have gone way way down.
Now that is a good idea. Back in the day when Dakka was smaller, you just knew who was an intelligent poster as it was a smaller community.
Now you get Johnny Smartman who thinks his tactics that are the best because they work in his basement against his two buddies posting all over the boards.
That is a part of maturing in a community too, I mean hell, when I first came to Dakka I thought I was the best player ever. Then I called out some Dakkites, got my ass kicked and learned a bunch. But with a ranking system, we could at least point out who was a respected voice in the community and who was just a voice. I think that is a good idea and based on merit, not just post count.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Hulk
I agree, the Tournament Discussion section is my favorite, too.
Nah Manchu, Cause those sites don't mean anything according to some people I've gotten to the point where I'll talk to certain people via PM if they ask advice but I just completely avoid posting in the army section unless I get a wild hair and then it's a poll for which army I should bring It's bad because I don't even expect halfway decent advice from there anymore.
Ergo, I try to treat it with respect and take all advice in stride.
I don't frequent many forums simply because of lack of interest/common sense.
As for the tactics section, have stickied threads ready to address what people concede are good tactics and funnel people towards those places. Some of the articles for advice regarding tactics and considering the meta today need to be updated.
This is interesting because I usually post in Tactics on the principle that someone has to encourage Tactics discussion, and if I don't, then it's just going to be Army Lists 2.
I have to agree with the sentiment about how in order for Dakka to go downhill it first had to be uphill. Don't get me wrong, it's worse than it ever was, but I think that's just because most of my favourite posters have moved on.
Agree on the Search function. I mean, why do I have to scroll to the bottom to get the most recent results? Also, it would be nice to have some way to cut down your "My Viewed Threads" page.
Id like a "reputation" system like other forums have. Years ago when I was on LO a lot (before I got sick of euro centric forums) you could see who was fairly well respected for their opinions. Heresy uses a system like that as well
So are we talking about a rating system kind of like a "Thanks" button that I have seen on some sites?
Nurglitch wrote:This is interesting because I usually post in Tactics on the principle that someone has to encourage Tactics discussion, and if I don't, then it's just going to be Army Lists 2.
I really enjoy reading your tactics and rules threads.
I personally don't care either way. There is enough experience already put into the forums that I can an answer to most anything.
If I need a question answered I ask it in the appropriate forums and get about 20 links to previous writes on the topic. So as for the search functions I could care less really.
I would like to see something else posted in the swap shop besides 40k/WHFB stuff all the time but I guess that just goes hand in hand with the nature of the forums.
I am very torn on the politeness rules vs not having them. Although I agree that some etiquette is nice and overall it works, I find that some annoying fethers get away with hijacking threads and generally being slowed with no consequence as you can't really give them what they so richly deserve. I realize there is a fine line to be drawn though, and its better to be on the civilized side of things.
News and rumours is my main reason for showing up, and through no fault of our own, its pretty dry going since GW changed their policies. It just isnt as interesting for a daily read like it used to be.
Once upon a time if you posted something stupid, you'd get called on it. These days, if you call on someone for posting something stupid, you get a warning.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Once upon a time if you posted something stupid, you'd get called on it. These days, if you call on someone for posting something stupid, you get a warning.
Depends on what you come here for. I look at my participation over the years, and it has definitely been sporadic. However, it has certainly taken a downturn in the last year or two. So yeah, I think it's gone downhill.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Once upon a time if you posted something stupid, you'd get called on it.
Once upon a time the caller then got hit on his head with a club .
As i have only recently joined, i really cant say where it went. But i can say, that i quite like Dakka for the mostly polite together here.
Really i find it annoying that so many people just act like jerks on the net.
And for the P&M... i dont think you have to paint GD standard to get feedback... the one thing surely helps though, is being a girl i noticed.
I cant say much to the tactics part of the forum as i dont participate. I like to invent my own tactics, bad or good they are mine ^^.
Some sort of reputation gauge would be useful. As a reasonably seasoned member I know who to listen to when I want advice for my nids (Shep is the man and there are a few others, myself included I think, who give solid advice). Now that I have moved onto WFB I'm in newer territory, though I know Lexx and Karon give good advice about Beastmen. Perhaps some sort of voting system to determine how much you value each members advice. That way when someone posts a tactica article or responds to a list you can see straight away whether their input is valuable or not.
Heck, when I first started posting in nid tactica articles I went on to rant about how ineffective the old nidzilla build was. Of course I had just got back into 40k after a 12 year long break and was spouting utter crap. Imagine if someone had taken my advice seriously and went to on to enter a GT or some other event and got their ass whooped because of me.
I the grand scheme of things, no, dakka is not going downhill.
From a technical perspective, dakka is the best it has ever been. There is always room for improvement, but it certainly beats the days of EzBoard.
From a moderation perspective, I would have to say it is better. Just because there is now a team on call instead of a few individuals which are rarely on and barely moderated. This is not meant as a compliment and a pat on the back however. For how much staff this place has, it should be much better. I wont detail how that could happen in my opinion, since the administration and moderation staff are well aware of my feedback and I hate redundancy.
From a contributing poster perspective, I don't have any idea, nor do I care. I don't read anything that is even remotely 40Kcentric anymore so the majority of content here is lost on me. PB&M is a vast swirling mass of people attempting to get feedback on things they make so its drowned out by sheer population.
I personally liked it better long ago, back when Evil Dewey Ennis, Craig Gallant and even Drew Riggio contributed to the then little known site. It was an old boys club during that time though. It involved people who knew each other in real life and just happened to start their local club forum during the rise of popular usage of the internet by less technical oriented users. Because of the content those and many other folks provided, the 40K gaming population at large looked in and said "I want to contribute and discuss my fave game too". Barpharanges, Nightserpent, Clouseau, Task, Plastictrees, ArchMagosAlchemy ....content has never been that good since then. The reason being is that there were few people during that time that had good creative skills that showed of their painting or tactical skills. They were memorable because of the low population size. Nowadays its everywhere. Its not a bad thing either. It loses some of its charm not only because familiarity breeds contempt, but because the content has lost its relevance and is a far cry from what people did in those days due to volume.
Dakka is simply a victim of its own success. It reached critical mass years ago and has been in a state of flux many times. A veritable high oscillation sine wave of peaks and pits. It just oscillates more frequently with more posters.
I don't see how you can compare to BOLS ... its newer... and has what... vaguely hashed out articles about nothingness?
At least dakka has the sprue wiki
]>++rant mode engaged++<[
The main issue with internet forums and any hobby with a compeditive side is that someone somewhere will develop 'the list' with the 'best' units.
Unless you are using these units your list sucks so sayeth the internet.
Unless you are using 'the right' tactics your tactics suck and you fail as a person so sayeth the wise internet.
Unless you min/max you suck so sayeth the internet.
This is squig dung. Some army lists are better/more powerful yes - this is a fact of life but similarly I've won more games with necrons that I've lost - the fact that I've been playing a long time, know my army, use bizarre tactics - you cannot account for them with an internet list. Maybe it's due to being in a country that had to wage a guerilla war to get its independence. Yes the other army is better/bigger/moar guns etc, so we use different tactics the likes of which they've never seen before! (What in modern parlance is called 'terrorism' although its more like guerilla warfare as it's against largely military targets) Anyway the point its thus:
The nature of wargaming is such that there is terrain, random elements, dice, human error. The internet cannot account for this. You can turn up with a leafblower list against my necron/tau/suboptimal race list and loose. The intenet 'people' are what you could call measurebators. It's basically mathhammer at its ugliest, purest form. I dont care if your khorne lord has 83 str 9 power weapon attacks when I kill him from a distance, I dont care how many lance weapons your dark eldar bring if I dont have any tanks...
You see the point? By not fighting on their terms, only your own you have the advantage. Essentially it seems that forums try to treat warhammer / 40k as an advanced form of magic the gathering - by the emperor we have talk of a METAGAME ?? What in the name of Sanguinus's bloodly nipple is that about? META? Does no one realise it's a circle jerk?
AHA! everyone brings scissors ergo I will bring rock... but people will be brining rock to beat the scissors so I need to have paper instead... but the scissors will beat my paper *head explode* It's like a lot of things - ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE. Yes you can have tactics, and strategies etc (hiding eldar rangers behind harlequins = a tactic or a syngergy) but if you are making a list to combat what you think your enemy might have you will probably loose if he out thinks you. Rather by using your own methods, tactics, unique to yourself or just 'not that popular' you have the advantage against a 'superior' force. Good options are the 'no one uses xyz units' Yes they might be really really really crap. However they might just not be popular because something is better MOST OF THE TIME. However if you take said 'suboptimal unit' generally two things happen: Opponent goes 'lol phail unit' and ignores it/underestimates it so you have the advantage or else goes 'ZOMG the the XYZ unit! There must be something ubar they can do!!! DIE!!' and wastes time killing a medocre unit.
Some lists have more synergy than others which is nice. But you can sit synergising on your uber idea all game but if you dont have objectives/VP/KP you've lost. You are better off taking *your* list, learning it, how it works etc, rather than net listing, going this is ubar keep it until you loose then going 'this sux' and changing / buying a new army.
Sometimes units are pure tripe, sometimes they just need to be used differetntly.
If everyone is thinking the same then no one is thinking
The game is much better, and bigger than some mtg style build of the block that many spout. Ignore them, pick a list you like, has cool stuff you think is fun and play a game.
]>++rant mode disabled++<[
There has been an increase in annoying members recently, and it is made worse by the moderation. Stupid posters are protected by the mods, as anyone who calls them out might get a warning. If it was allowed to be mean to stupid people, we would at least get some entertainment out of them
Hulksmash wrote:Yeah, Tactics generally make me wince. Most army lists posted don't actually want feed back or can't answer how their units function together to defend their choices. I've very, very rarely popped into those forums of late. I have to say the Tournament Forum is one of the few that I really enjoy posting in. I also like the P&M, News and Rumors, and sometimes Discussions. Basically I'm only thinking that Tactics and 40k Army lists have gone way way down.
To be fair, I don't think there's a forum anywhere with genuinely good tactics advice being offered and, likewise, they all seem to have people posting army lists looking for an ego massage rather than criticism.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Illumini wrote:There has been an increase in annoying members recently
I've actually had to put someone on ignore recently - something I've never done before on this or any other forum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hyperviper6 wrote:I say loosen up; get some dedicated writers who can engage the community like bols readers.
I think the last thing we want is to be more like BoLS - lots of articles about nothing in particular. It is so intensly annoying to read through an article, waiting for the author to make their point and then you realise you're at the end and there isn't one.
Thanks. This is the second time this week someone has said something nice about my posting here.
Your postings in the tactics threads are usually pretty good in so far as my limited tactical ability and lack of playing can tell
Regards the rest of the site: I've not really been here all that long to say how it used to be back in the golden days when the Emp walked the forum and we reclaimed many users during the Great Crusade etc, so anything I say is based on what I have observed more recently.
+ Articles +
The articles are often stubs with little to no information on them. Many lack pictures or other content, proper headings, etc. From what I have seen they are also quite difficult to navigate through, with some articles in questionable locations in the tree of knowledge.
Some are edited multiple times with conflicting information or opinion (the Ork tactics article is probably the best example of this off the top of my head). Or are either written or edited by someone who obviously views the English language as more of a house rule than RAW.
Some articles are created which are only minutely different from pre-existing ones and are often inferior.
Also, not really sure what the hell is going on here, but I just found some article titles while searching for something else which are just weird: Popular Home Remedies for Heartburn Home Remedies for Head Louse - Get Rid of Head Lice Best Dog Training Secrets
+ PLogs +
These are great, but as mentioned the rather naff search function means that you can't always find anything that you want. Some kind of title tag helps a little when you are scrolling through (for example mine just has [CSM/IG/Eldar] at the start of the title so people know what it contains), but it is certainly a case of having to bookmark anything interesting as even subscribed threads get lost in the volume of posts sometimes (especially if it is an older thread that is not updated regularly that you just want to check out, or link someone to).
Some kind of blogspot filter system (or the filter system on the gallery) would probably be really good in this section so you can tag your PLog with the appropriate details.
As mentioned, sometimes it is quite hard getting feedback on PLogs unless your work is amazing. I think I am pretty lucky with my PLog in that there are a couple of people who post reletively regulalry when I update, and a few randoms drifting in and commenting too. Lots of great PLogs that I follow (limited by me actually seeing they have been updated - due to them falling off the first page or so of my subscribed topics fairly quickly sometimes) have very few comments.
Perhaps some kind of "my subscribed PLogs" option would be appropriate?
+ Tutorials +
Same as PLogs - lack of a good search function/tagging/etc means it is really hard to find something once it is gone off the first page, which is a shame as there are a handful of excellent tutorials on Dakka for a wide range of topics. That and the many really crappy (sorry, but they are ) tutorials that crop up all the time and cover the same few things (often with no or blurred pictures, terrible written instructions or just a rush of "ohmygodifyoudothisitlooksamazing!!!!11111pi" instead of an actual tutorial).
Perhaps duplicate some of the better tutorials into the articles section (I am pretty sure some people have already done so with their tutorials, which is good)?
Hulksmash wrote:Yeah, Tactics generally make me wince. Most army lists posted don't actually want feed back or can't answer how their units function together to defend their choices. I've very, very rarely popped into those forums of late. I have to say the Tournament Forum is one of the few that I really enjoy posting in. I also like the P&M, News and Rumors, and sometimes Discussions. Basically I'm only thinking that Tactics and 40k Army lists have gone way way down.
How would you improve it? Give us some rubber to the road examples of what you would do, and that would be helpful.
I think a big part of the problem right now is the "niceness" that is forced on people here. The best players/Hobbyists are very sure of their abilities, and many of them are "characters"...in order to get their point across sometimes they have to step on toes....not allowed here anymore. It's so hard to teach people how to play "good" 40k. Sometimes I think that they simply dont even WANT to learn. They are typically SO sure that the dice/scenario/opposing army robbed them of a win that they're to angry to see the real truth...that they themselves need to improve as players.
Unfortunatly, I think dakka now caters to these people that refuse to improve in their game. The list/tactics section of dakka (which used to be my favorite long long ago) would be a much more serious place with personalities like Stelek, Mauleed, Gwar, and many others who have offended people over the years given free reign to "lay it down" unfortunatly, people get frustrated. Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.
Many forum catagories here are indeed havens for the people who get butt-hurt over being told that they're wrong. You've got to STOMP sense into some of these players if they're ever going to improve their game....which is really what they want/need, they just dont realise it. You cannot do it on dakka...I find that unfortunate.
I find that my favorite forum topics here are Off-Topic, and the new Tournament section. Off Topic is just plain interesting sometimes. The Tournament section keeps me appraised pretty well of whats going on...I'm thankful for that.
Even though dakka is heavilly moderated nowadays, this is still my first stop online when I wanna get some online hobby research done. Then, after about five-ten minutes, I get bored and hit the blogosphere.
Blog's are where its at for REAL tactics and list advice...because you cannot shut those guys up....it's their blog, they rule. You may have to cut and paste useful information, seperating it from arrogant "high and mightyness" but if you can do that you find MUCH more useful tactics and info than you do on any moderated forum. Blog's dont care if they hurt your feelings, they just wanna talk about how to play WELL. YTTH, 3++, Mind War FTW, Bald and Screaming, many others...sufing those sights will bring you MUCH more gaming wisdom than dakka will at this point in time. You just have to be able to cut thru the chaff.
I like dakka a lot, I do, but its got its problems and its a 40k kiddie pool where other places online will REALLY teach you list building and good tactics on the table.
Deady how does " that idea if friggin stupid" help your argument though?
Assume the idea is in fact stupid. How does that convince the poster to change, vs. just making them want to flame you back? Doesn't that just make tactics like YMDC?
Deadshane1 wrote:Blog's are where its at for REAL tactics and list advice...because you cannot shut those guys up....it's their blog, they rule. You may have to cut and paste useful information, seperating it from arrogant "high and mightyness" but if you can do that you find MUCH more useful tactics and info than you do on any moderated forum. Blog's dont care if they hurt your feelings, they just wanna talk about how to play WELL. YTTH, 3++, Mind War FTW, Bald and Screaming, many others...sufing those sights will bring you MUCH more gaming wisdom than dakka will at this point in time. You just have to be able to cut thru the chaff.
I like dakka a lot, I do, but its got its problems and its a 40k kiddie pool where other places online will REALLY teach you list building and good tactics on the table.
Thats my two teef anyhoo.
I would suggest to all of the unappreciated tactical geniuses that they do this very thing. It's way too much trouble to be disagreed with, the much more mature thing to do is to take one's ball and go home. Also, being polite in refuting a stupid point makes it more likely that someone else reading the exchange will be won over to your way of thinking, and not just tune it out as "another Dakka flame-war."
I happen to think that there is some very good tactics advice given on the forums, particularly from Sanctjud and Nurglitch.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Once upon a time if you posted something stupid, you'd get called on it. These days, if you call on someone for posting something stupid, you get a warning.
Illumini wrote:There has been an increase in annoying members recently, and it is made worse by the moderation. Stupid posters are protected by the mods, as anyone who calls them out might get a warning. If it was allowed to be mean to stupid people, we would at least get some entertainment out of them
*Looks at YMDC and the resident troll(s) that reside there*
H.B.M.C. wrote:Once upon a time if you posted something stupid, you'd get called on it. These days, if you call on someone for posting something stupid, you get a warning.
Illumini wrote:There has been an increase in annoying members recently, and it is made worse by the moderation. Stupid posters are protected by the mods, as anyone who calls them out might get a warning. If it was allowed to be mean to stupid people, we would at least get some entertainment out of them
*Looks at YMDC and the resident troll(s) that reside there*
How does that help again?
"You're stupid and your idea makes my butt weep."
"yea, well, you're poopy head and not quite sane."
"unuh!"
"Uh huh!"
I mean that would be fun for a few threads, but every one? Plus I'd get ten thousand reports from people or their allies who were put off.
It might be interesting to make a separate serious army lists/tactics section, for players who want to have discussions without the usual "Should I use Punishers/Looted Wagons/Whirlwinds?" type questions. Possibly with a separate mod (Dash?) that can remove posts that aren't up to standard?
Illumini wrote:There has been an increase in annoying members recently, and it is made worse by the moderation. Stupid posters are protected by the mods, as anyone who calls them out might get a warning.
If it was allowed to be mean to stupid people, we would at least get some entertainment out of them
In my experience, alerting is a good way to close a thread or get a particular post edited, but it's not always clear if/when anything happens to the guilty parties, due to the way that Dakka manages things. IMO, the mods do a reasonably good job, especially considering how much they get paid for doing what they do.
I like to flame, but Dakka management has been *very* clear that they don't want unbounded flaming on the board... Oh, well...
Nobody ever said that there wasnt ANY good tactics discussion here...but it IS very hard to come by. Most of the tactics/list forum is straight garbage.
Frazzled wrote:Deady how does " that idea if friggin stupid" help your argument though?
Maybe it doesnt, but I'll tell you what overmoderation does....
You have a veteran and a noob discussing a point of tactics. As I noted above...the noobs are FREQUENTLY difficult to stomp new and better ideas into, sometimes it SEEMS like they want to lose.
Anyway.
-Noob posts terrible army list, a new list he thinks and is sure will help him win games. It's his new baby and he's proud of it.
-Veteran arrives and politely tells him whats wrong.
-Noob is offended that someone questions the power of 3 full and tooled Vanguard Vet squads. Cites several examples of how it will beat local players easily so should be able to rawk the tourney scene.
-Veteran gets a bit frustrated with what is obviously TOTAL inexperience passed off as top level play. "That is so friggin stupid" lemme tell you why....
NO MODERATION:
Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.
Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and for the most part...dakka appears to agree with him. Tells the Noob to follow advice.
If the Noob is adult enough, he reads the post and those following. His feelings may be hurt a bit, but the fact is that he needed to learn why his idea Sucked. People posted in conversational manners much like you'd find in an actual games store.
HEAVY MODERATION
Veterans post is moderated by Mod who is by chance following the thread. Due to violations of "politeness policy" spattered throughout the informative reply, Mod deletes entire post rather than cutting/pasting/ or rewriting the post in an acceptable manner. Mod issues a warning to helpful Veteran who wishes to actually help the Noob improve his game.
Veteran is offended. "Why do I even bother? I win all of MY games...and my local opponents are actually GOOD at this game" Veteran feels that in trying to help the communty improve its game, he's rewarded with a warning and a suspension from dakka if he doesnt flavor all posts with vanilla icing and candy sprinkles. "That idea is friggin stupid" followed by solid tactics and stratagies that everyone reading could benefit from. Noob hits the alert button after I take the trouble to actually HELP him?
Again, WHY DO I BOTHER.
Veteran decides not to bother posting in the Tactics section again and opens up a new blog on Google where he can speak freely and in his own style. He doesnt have to think about politeness and avoiding other people's hurt feelings....he simply posts whats on his mind...and points of REAL intelligence flows forth.
Meanwhile...dakka languishes in darkness. The noob isnt helped out with his list. Other noobs on dakka say "that looks really powerful" (remember, all the real intelligent players dont bother anymore). He buys the army, and continues to blame dice and scenarios.
Essentially.
Dont chastise me when I'm trying to tell this little fool why his army is slowed. The bottom line is that I'm trying to HELP him improve his game. When other people READ my response, they'll agree with me. If the guy is adult enough to handle the real world and the internet, he'll give me feedback and probably learn something...in return dakka gets an interesting thread read and may learn something as well. Perhaps I'm not being as polite as can be, but if the guy starts crying or is traumatised in some way then perhaps his parents should have had him in bed at 9pm and been monitoring his internet usage.
When I'm moderated for "telling it like it is" in my own style...why bother to help at all? Maybe I should go elsewhere where I'm unfettered, and can 'talk the talk' without danger of little forum dictators making sure I know they've got the power. I know...I'll start a blog...screw this forum garbage, after all, I WIN my games.
A new blog is borne, and Frazzled has to look for someone else to moderate.
People will most likely read what they can most easily see. The argument goes that actual content gets drowned in crap for this reason. For the sake of argument, let's lowball it and say it takes 100% longer to post a thoughtful thread abnout tactics or a new P&M blog (more like 1000%) than a junk thread. Therefore, for every thread of on-topic content there will be literally 100 (or many, many more) junk threads. By their nature, the junk threads get more attention: less is required to meaningfully participate. Therefore what some of the people complaining would consider wargaming content is buried very quickly.
Again. the "My Friends' Threads" feature has helped with this for me. But it has meant that I've pared down my friends list quite a bit (i.e., significantly changed my use of the "friend" function).
I hardly think Dakka qualifies as "heavily moderated" as in that example, Dead Shane. And the veteran could get the point across very easily within the (VERY loose) "politeness" guidelines... especially if they really are a veteran and know what flies on the site and what doesn't!
Deadshane1 wrote:Nobody ever said that there wasnt ANY good tactics discussion here...but it IS very hard to come by. Most of the tactics/list forum is straight garbage.
Frazzled wrote:Deady how does " that idea if friggin stupid" help your argument though?
Maybe it doesnt, but I'll tell you what overmoderation does....
You have a veteran and a noob discussing a point of tactics. As I noted above...the noobs are FREQUENTLY difficult to stomp new and better ideas into, sometimes it SEEMS like they want to lose.
Anyway.
-Noob posts terrible army list, a new list he thinks and is sure will help him win games. It's his new baby and he's proud of it.
-Veteran arrives and politely tells him whats wrong.
-Noob is offended that someone questions the power of 3 full and tooled Vanguard Vet squads. Cites several examples of how it will beat local players easily so should be able to rawk the tourney scene.
-Veteran gets a bit frustrated with what is obviously TOTAL inexperience passed off as top level play. "That is so friggin stupid" lemme tell you why....
NO MODERATION:
Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.
Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and for the most part...dakka appears to agree with him. Tells the Noob to follow advice.
If the Noob is adult enough, he reads the post and those following. His feelings may be hurt a bit, but the fact is that he needed to learn why his idea Sucked. People posted in conversational manners much like you'd find in an actual games store.
HEAVY MODERATION
Veterans post is moderated by Mod who is by chance following the thread. Due to violations of "politeness policy" spattered throughout the informative reply, Mod deletes entire post rather than cutting/pasting/ or rewriting the post in an acceptable manner. Mod issues a warning to helpful Veteran who wishes to actually help the Noob improve his game.
Veteran is offended. "Why do I even bother? I win all of MY games...and my local opponents are actually GOOD at this game" Veteran feels that in trying to help the communty improve its game, he's rewarded with a warning and a suspension from dakka if he doesnt flavor all posts with vanilla icing and candy sprinkles. "That idea is friggin stupid" followed by solid tactics and stratagies that everyone reading could benefit from. Noob hits the alert button after I take the trouble to actually HELP him?
Again, WHY DO I BOTHER.
Veteran decides not to bother posting in the Tactics section again and opens up a new blog on Google where he can speak freely and in his own style. He doesnt have to think about politeness and avoiding other people's hurt feelings....he simply posts whats on his mind...and points of REAL intelligence flows forth.
Meanwhile...dakka languishes in darkness. The noob isnt helped out with his list. Other noobs on dakka say "that looks really powerful" (remember, all the real intelligent players dont bother anymore). He buys the army, and continues to blame dice and scenarios.
Essentially.
Dont chastise me when I'm trying to tell this little fool why his army is slowed. The bottom line is that I'm trying to HELP him improve his game. When other people READ my response, they'll agree with me. If the guy is adult enough to handle the real world and the internet, he'll give me feedback and probably learn something...in return dakka gets an interesting thread read and may learn something as well. Perhaps I'm not being as polite as can be, but if the guy starts crying or is traumatised in some way then perhaps his parents should have had him in bed at 9pm and been monitoring his internet usage.
When I'm moderated for "telling it like it is" in my own style...why bother to help at all? Maybe I should go elsewhere where I'm unfettered, and can 'talk the talk' without danger of little forum dictators making sure I know they've got the power. I know...I'll start a blog...screw this forum garbage, after all, I WIN my games.
A new blog is borne, and Frazzled has to look for someone else to moderate.
Dakka isnt heavily moderated as national boards go.
Warseer, Dakka, B&C, are all generally heavilly moderated. Veterans dont go to these places for discussion of tactics, I feel its a direct result.
Local forums, like for your local games store or local club, are less heavily moderated. You can talk to your friends in whatever tone suits you, and you get real discussion there.
Blogs, are availiable to anyone. I can read Stelek's stuff and he lives in Utah, myself? Virginia. I can read solid tactics from across the country. He's not moderated on his boards...because he owns it.
All I'm saying is that the best tourney players in the country dont come HERE for tactics...they read stuff that THEIR OPPONENTS are writing. I wanna be able to beat stelek...lets go read his theory. Lets see, Da Boyz won the team tourney at adepticon this year, lemme go check out their forum to see what they're up to....maybe I'll stop by the Wrecking Crew's forums while I'm at it since they're the #1 club on the ratings site competetively.(shameless plug)
Dakka IS heavily moderated compared to these other sources. These other sources that are not as heavily moderated....and have better tactics info.
If Dakka wasnt as heavily moderated...these people that start up their own forums and blogs may have been still posting here. YTTH started up because a guy spoke his mind and was constantly chastised for it....on several forums. While personally I think the guy is a pompous ass, he really brought to the fore some GOOD discussion. Dakka was lessened the day he was banned IMHO. Others have started blogs in kind...so post here less, Blackmoor, TKE, DannyInternets, if they werent busy with their own little works they might be more inclined to post a full tactics article on dakka.
Kilkrazy wrote:Or maybe people could just ignore the silly stuff they aren't interested in?
I just don't get it why people find it so hard to not read things.
Because as Shane so neatly lays out, there are fethers being wrong on the internet, and the only way to deal with fethers is to feth them, and if you're not allowed to feth them til they tear, why even bother posting?
Noob says, "I need advice with my list."
I say, "Alright, X, Y, Z."
Noob says, "STFU, not everyone agrees with your drivel on how to play Orks."
Thread spins out of control.
Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.
Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and for the most part...dakka appears to agree with him. Tells the Noob to follow advice.
If the Noob is adult enough, he reads the post and those following. His feelings may be hurt a bit, but the fact is that he needed to learn why his idea Sucked. People posted in conversational manners much like you'd find in an actual games store.
Here's how it would really go. :
Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.
Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and the newb and split into four camps: those for the newb; those against the newb; those watching while eating popcorn (me); and those randomly trolling with random images and flotsom (again me). The first two groups call each other poopie heads and question their parentage of the other group. Occasionally they will PM each other with even more graphic statements and images. Threats will be made and chests beaten mightily. Repeat loop for 27 pages. The two groups spread to other threads which are happily minding their own business. People quit. Frazzled east a lot of popcorn.
Threads where that has occured:
DoP batreps.
BBF batreps or threads.
Threads about tournaments and the WC.
I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude to get their point across.
If the noob in question isn't going to take your advice, he's not going to take your advice. It doesn't matter if you're polite, or offensive, or type it out, gift wrap it, and mail it to him. I mean, does anyone here really think being offensive to someone is more likely to make them come around to your point of view? Really?
Will someone please very slowly and carefully tell me how posting to someone that their idea is 'friggin stupid' in any way contributes to helping someone's tactical capabilities develop? Because there's clearly something I'm missing here.
Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.
Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and for the most part...dakka appears to agree with him. Tells the Noob to follow advice.
If the Noob is adult enough, he reads the post and those following. His feelings may be hurt a bit, but the fact is that he needed to learn why his idea Sucked. People posted in conversational manners much like you'd find in an actual games store.
Here's how it would really go. :
Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.
Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and the newb and split into four camps: those for the newb; those against the newb; those watching while eating popcorn (me); and those randomly trolling with random images and flotsom (again me). The first two groups call each other poopie heads and question their parentage of the other group. Occasionally they will PM each other with even more graphic statements and images. Threats will be made and chests beaten mightily. Repeat loop for 27 pages. The two groups spread to other threads which are happily minding their own business. People quit. Frazzled east a lot of popcorn.
Threads where that has occured:
DoP batreps.
BBF batreps or threads.
Threads about tournaments and the WC.
On the positive, you're all Newbs to me.
Ok then Frazz, do you DISPUTE that you can find better tactics and list advice at the other sources I've mentioned? (cause part of me would like to hear you actually claim that the tactics/list section here is JUST as informative as the blogs and solid club forum tactics out there....why?...laughter is healthy for the soul.)
@Nurglitch: Aspirationally speaking, however, wouldn't it be best to leave the bile out altogether--especially if you want your modicum of insight to actually be considered? When you have bile flung at you, it's hard to see past the bile.
Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.
Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and for the most part...dakka appears to agree with him. Tells the Noob to follow advice.
If the Noob is adult enough, he reads the post and those following. His feelings may be hurt a bit, but the fact is that he needed to learn why his idea Sucked. People posted in conversational manners much like you'd find in an actual games store.
Here's how it would really go. :
Veteran is allowed to get his point across in a very HUMAN manner, true, WITH frustration, but unfettered by the moderators he can go on to tell the Noob why his Ideas ARE completely wrong and idiotic when considered by a true successful veteran playing this game. He lets slip that some ideas that the Noob has are "stupid" but in reality...THEY ARE. There are no PERSONAL insults hurled, and the point is delivered. Albeit not as politely as could be delivered, but the point is made. Post is not moderated/deleted.
Other's of similar mind read the unmoderated and undeleted post of the Veteran and the newb and split into four camps: those for the newb; those against the newb; those watching while eating popcorn (me); and those randomly trolling with random images and flotsom (again me). The first two groups call each other poopie heads and question their parentage of the other group. Occasionally they will PM each other with even more graphic statements and images. Threats will be made and chests beaten mightily. Repeat loop for 27 pages. The two groups spread to other threads which are happily minding their own business. People quit. Frazzled east a lot of popcorn.
Threads where that has occured:
DoP batreps.
BBF batreps or threads.
Threads about tournaments and the WC.
On the positive, you're all Newbs to me.
Ok then Frazz, do you DISPUTE that you can find better tactics and list advice at the other sources I've mentioned? (cause part of me would like to hear you actually claim that the tactics/list section here is JUST as informative as the blogs and solid club forum tactics out there....why?...laughter is healthy for the soul.)
If not, why would you say that is?
You mean like the hell on earth that is Stelek's Blog. Friend you're welcome to it.
You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful. They call you stupid back and I reach for the popcorn. But it deoesn't help your case, it just makes it fun to watch.
The biggest problem I see is that moderation is heavy (which is fine) but it is not equally applied. Advertisers, long time posters, and (seemingly) friends of the moderation team get more privileges as to what they get away with than the normal poster.
12thRonin wrote:The biggest problem I see is that moderation is heavy (which is fine) but it is not equally applied. Advertisers, long time posters, and (seemingly) friends of the moderation team get more privileges as to what they get away with than the normal poster.
Examples? Who are friends of the mods. This might be interesting.
You hit the nail on the head. You laid out what happens here perfectly and I believe that is the main reason we have such gawd awful tactics and list advice here, now.
Maybe we should all just start a blog. Dakka's old malcontents blog of ass kicking. All ye who enter here, better know what you're talking about or prepare to get flamed!
Deadshane, that's a very valid point. However, I would say that the tactical advice on a blog is also narrower, as it is usually from (mostly) one person's point of view, or the point of view of a single group, instead of having a larger sampling.
I saw tactics at 'Ard Boyz for fantasy that I haven't seen on Dakka. But then, that's not usually the section I lurk! And of course, I guess I could post them up here now that I've seen them, if I was a little more motivated
You hit the nail on the head. You laid out what happens here perfectly and I believe that is the main reason we have such gawd awful tactics and list advice here, now.
Maybe we should all just start a blog. Dakka's old malcontents blog of ass kicking. All ye who enter here, better know what you're talking about or prepare to get flamed!
Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful. They call you stupid back and I reach for the popcorn. But it deoesn't help your case, it just makes it fun to watch.
He hasn't because he can't. There's a reason why the inability to argue a disagreement without resorting to insults and personal attacks is considered a significant character flaw. Outright calling something stupid doesn't work because it's a direct attack that immediately puts the recipient in a defensive state of mind. It's hard to be recpetive to someone's argument when they're opening belitting you.
It's actually possible to be directly blunt without being insulting. Instead of just writing something off as 'stupid' by saying a little less confrontational, like, 'You have a lot of X, which just doesn't work because of factors Y and Z,' which not only leaves the recipient not feeling like he has to immediately step up and defend himself, but also averts multiple pages of sniping back and forth, and you ending up feeling butthurt because the big bad mods came down on you for telling it like it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
12thRonin wrote:The biggest problem I see is that moderation is heavy (which is fine) but it is not equally applied. Advertisers, long time posters, and (seemingly) friends of the moderation team get more privileges as to what they get away with than the normal poster.
Unless you can back that up with examples, I'm going to call that a pretty big pile of BS.
only being in dakka a few days , but i find it both relaxed mature , reasonable , educational friendly and inspiring , which are qualities you will rarely find on any forum let alone one to do with competetive battles
Frazzled wrote:DoP batreps. BBF batreps or threads. Threads about tournaments and the WC.
Clearly, then, what we need is an DoP to play BBF in a WC-sponsored tournament.
with UNMODERATED thread leading up, and UNMODERATED batreps afterward
Hiliarity ensues!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurglitch wrote:Nothing wrong with being rude to someone so long as it's well-written, and thus conveys some modicum of insight or reasoning to justify the bile.
Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.
He hasn't because he can't.
Which may be because what was actually written was this:
Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"
Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".
Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.
Nurglitch wrote:Nothing wrong with being rude to someone so long as it's well-written, and thus conveys some modicum of insight or reasoning to justify the bile.
The only two reasons for being rude to a stranger are (1) because you are having a bad day and it slips out, and (2) because you want to belittle them and have some jollies at their expense. Both of these are bad, but the first one is at least only a sin of omission rather than commission.
Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".
That is the stupidest fecking comment I've ever seen on Dakka. Only a total feckwit slow descended from inbred fecktards would have written something like that.
Key point: calling an idea "stupid" is *exactly* the same as calling the person "stupid". Trying to split hairs here simply doesn't work.
Hey guys I have one more major suggestion. In the news and rumors on major topics (IE: Codex updates ect.) could we get the mods to keep the first post in the thread up to date? For instance, if tom starts the topic with what he heard, then two pages of discussion later salley puts a picture up, then 3 pages later gw make an annoucment and billy adds it I now have to read 5+ pages hoping there is more information in there. (and there may not be)
If a mod kept up with the thread and added the actual news to the first post of the thread then if I hadn't been follwing the thread or was a random visitor then I would be easily able to pick up on the thread.
hyperviper6 wrote:Hey guys I have one more major suggestion. In the news and rumors on major topics (IE: Codex updates ect.) could we get the mods to keep the first post in the thread up to date? For instance, if tom starts the topic with what he heard, then two pages of discussion later salley puts a picture up, then 3 pages later gw make an annoucment and billy adds it I now have to read 5+ pages hoping there is more information in there. (and there may not be)
If a mod kept up with the thread and added the actual news to the first post of the thread then if I hadn't been follwing the thread or was a random visitor then I would be easily able to pick up on the thread.
You hit the nail on the head. You laid out what happens here perfectly and I believe that is the main reason we have such gawd awful tactics and list advice here, now.
Maybe we should all just start a blog. Dakka's old malcontents blog of ass kicking. All ye who enter here, better know what you're talking about or prepare to get flamed!
Go for it.
You take gak too literally, brotha. I love Dakka. I am voicing my discontent because I care about the site. However, there isn't much to offer here anymore in comparison to what it was. At least not from my POV. I crack a few jokes here and there but that doesn't mean I want to leave the ship. I want to see Dakka improve.
One day a student in class said, "I have a stupid question." "No matter," replied the professor, "There are stupid people in this class who will think it is a smart question."
Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.
He hasn't because he can't.
Which may be because what was actually written was this:
Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"
Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".
It really isn't. The human response to being hit with confrontational language is to be confrontational right back, and in this context, it's not far removed from directly calling the person stupid, because by implication, why else would they be including stupid things in their list. That's the problem with derogatorily attacking ideas in the context of say, army lists or wargame tactics.
You hit the nail on the head. You laid out what happens here perfectly and I believe that is the main reason we have such gawd awful tactics and list advice here, now.
Maybe we should all just start a blog. Dakka's old malcontents blog of ass kicking. All ye who enter here, better know what you're talking about or prepare to get flamed!
Go for it.
You take gak too literally, brotha. I love Dakka. I am voicing my discontent because I care about the site. However, there isn't much to offer here anymore in comparison to what it was. At least not from my POV. I crack a few jokes here and there but that doesn't mean I want to leave the ship. I want to see Dakka improve.
You think I am taking it in a bad way. I'm serious. See what you can do.
hyperviper6 wrote:Hey guys I have one more major suggestion. In the news and rumors on major topics (IE: Codex updates ect.) could we get the mods to keep the first post in the thread up to date? For instance, if tom starts the topic with what he heard, then two pages of discussion later salley puts a picture up, then 3 pages later gw make an annoucment and billy adds it I now have to read 5+ pages hoping there is more information in there. (and there may not be)
If a mod kept up with the thread and added the actual news to the first post of the thread then if I hadn't been follwing the thread or was a random visitor then I would be easily able to pick up on the thread.
not getting ya HP. What?
I think he means put all condense all new/rumours/pictures into the opening post of a new/rumours thread so somebody doesn't have to look through 5/6 pages for tidbits.
No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.
Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid. Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law) and are distinguishable from stupid people in being willing and able to see when their opinions are stupid and adjusting accordingly. Stupid people, on the other hand, mistake criticism of their ideas for insults to themselves, and feel that their ideas must be defended from attack, rather than critically examined and discarded if found to be unsound.
Kilkrazy:
Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.
No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.
Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid. Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law) and are distinguishable from stupid people in being willing and able to see when their opinions are stupid and adjusting accordingly. Stupid people, on the other hand, mistake criticism of their ideas for insults to themselves, and feel that their ideas must be defended from attack, rather than critically examined and discarded if found to be unsound.
Kilkrazy:
Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.
Thats just stupid, asininely stupid, like the kind federal government level bailout stupid.
Whats interesting is that there are calls against OT, but I'd proffer thats the least moderated portion of this board.
"Too much moderation"? That is a shocking idea. If anything I would say its the opposite (but really the moderation level is fine).
Actually, I find that some posters already have a big enough ego, no need to let it grow by allowing them to constantly belittle anyone whose ideas are not as... evolved as theirs.
Why do you need to be rude to someone whose ideas you can see flaws in? Have we degenerated in our respective societies that in order to voice disagreement, we must attack ideas and not simply present a refutation of that idea and submit an alternate idea, which accounts for the flaws in the original submission?
I must admit that I don't always keep my tone in check, but I would expect that if I said something rude enough for it to get reported and a 3rd party (i.e. the mod) agreed I would be hit with the mod stick of rationality.
No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.
Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid. Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law) and are distinguishable from stupid people in being willing and able to see when their opinions are stupid and adjusting accordingly. Stupid people, on the other hand, mistake criticism of their ideas for insults to themselves, and feel that their ideas must be defended from attack, rather than critically examined and discarded if found to be unsound.
Kilkrazy:
Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.
I have met only about a dozen of the members of the forum, and I don't come here to be insulted. I only let close friends do that.
No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.
Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid. Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law) and are distinguishable from stupid people in being willing and able to see when their opinions are stupid and adjusting accordingly. Stupid people, on the other hand, mistake criticism of their ideas for insults to themselves, and feel that their ideas must be defended from attack, rather than critically examined and discarded if found to be unsound.
Kilkrazy:
Except we're not strangers, randomly meeting in a shop or on the street. We've specifically come to this forum to participate in written discussion. We're here to read each other's opinions, not mutter niceties as we try to go about unrelated business.
I have met only about a dozen of the members of the forum, and I don't come here to be insulted. I only let close friends do that.
only my mom, wife, and various weiner dogs get that privilege and thats mostly because they are really vicious cruel and petty, and thats just my mom.
Your point is correct, calling an idea stupid is different than calling a person stupid. However, does it take that much effort to phrase something in a polite way? The point here is, why be confrontational, and use words that are likely to evoke a defensive reaction when they are not necessary?
Isn't part of being intelligent the ability to discuss an issue in a manner that will lead to mutual enlightenment? If you use phrases and words that are likely to evoke defensive responses, are you not missing the goal of have a debate in the first place?
I do stupid things. So do you.
I expect to be called on them.
Even posts with more spite than tact, like JohnHwangDD's recent forays into responding to my posts have been, this is not an issue. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Even if that means saying something like, "That is the stupidest fecking comment I've ever seen on Dakka. Only a total feckwit slow descended from inbred fecktards would have written something like that", I approve of posting it if you think it's true.
If people are suddenly so thin-skinned that having their brilliance denied online is painful, then the problem is not going to go away when responses get candy-coated.
No, not like Stelek. Kind of the opposite, really. It wasn't his rudeness or ego that bothered me so much as he didn't bother explaining his reasoning so that people who disagreed could gain any insight or explanation for why he held that opinion. He was simply willfully inarticulate.
Something I'll add is that calling an idea stupid is very different from calling a person stupid.
Intelligent people can have stupid ideas (Sturgeon's Law)
I completely understand what you're saying, however, I also think that you're very wrong in how you're applying your knowledge. We aren't talking about well-grounded things here in a rarified ivory tower. We're primarily talking about opinions. The vast bulk of what appears on Dakka is opinion, anecdotally-formed. So it's not detached, but rather it's intensely personal.
Calling a person's opinion stupid *is* calling the person stupid.
Calling a person's idea or opinion is a great way of trying to get around rules against being deliberately rude.
"fielding only rippers as troops is flawed because of x, y and z."
Which statement do you think would be more helpful? That is why you are responding to someone who has such an idea to begin with, right? To be helpful?
You mean like the hell on earth that is Stelek's Blog. Friend you're welcome to it.
That little "hell on earth" is about 100 times more informative and insightful than the tactics/list section here on Dakka. I'm intelligent enough to cut thru all the arrogant BS...I dont need a moderator to make sure the site is rated 'G' so my feeling arent hurt.
If you think the tactics section here is any SORT of a match for the ideas posted there or on any of the other blogs I've mentioned...I feel bad for you, and congratulate any opponents you've got in 40k.
You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful. They call you stupid back and I reach for the popcorn. But it deoesn't help your case, it just makes it fun to watch.
In and of itself it isnt helpful, but what IS helpful is to be able to put ones point across in ones own words, maybe even posting a little bit of human emotion in there to get ones point across on important little tidbits. Being able to do this without having a parental figure standing over your shoulder helps in writing a creative and interesting response.
Hence...informative blogs, and boring big name forums' tactics sections.
I think you're mistaking people actively going out of their way to insult each other with the common rudeness that people perceive whenever anyone does anything besides validate each other's opinion. As it goes disagreeing with people is commonly considered rude, at least in Canada. On message boards such as Dakka Dakka and Warseer and Portent I've been called oppositional, arrogant, and worse besides because I take it as given that a discussion requires criticism as well as agreement. With all the different backgrounds and the diversity of literacy on these boards it's just a fact that people are going to take offense to comments that come off as rude which were not intended to be insults or attacks.
Maybe it's my philosophy background, but I'm used to being able to tell someone "Your ideas sucks, and here's why", have them reply in kind, and then go get a beer and continue the discussion once the conference particulars are done for the day. I'm used to casual rudeness so long as it's concerned with building better ideas. Being rude because someone thinks it's funny or because you want to take someone down a peg, to insult someone, that's obviously not okay.
That isn't the way everyone behaves, though, so you are forcing your confrontational idea of personal interaction on everyone else. Also on the Internet any insults are even more likely to be taken the way that perhaps they may not have been intended.
You mean like the hell on earth that is Stelek's Blog. Friend you're welcome to it.
That little "hell on earth" is about 100 times more informative and insightful than the tactics/list section here on Dakka. I'm intelligent enough to cut thru all the arrogant BS...I dont need a moderator to make sure the site is rated 'G' so my feeling arent hurt.
It also consists of about ten buttmuncher cultists who listen with rabid cultlike fascination. I'll stay with a forum format that has more people than can fit in my car thank you very much.
If you think the tactics section here is any SORT of a match for the ideas posted there or on any of the other blogs I've mentioned...I feel bad for you, and congratulate any opponents you've got in 40k.
1. Did I?
2, Actually you should feel bad for them. They have to deal with me live and in person. Thats generally considered a crime against humnaity in most countries.
Kilkrazy wrote:That isn't the way everyone behaves, though, so you are forcing your confrontational idea of personal interaction on everyone else. Also on the Internet any insults are even more likely to be taken the way that perhaps they may not have been intended.
What is actually wrong about being polite?
Sort of like life in general...off of the internet, wouldnt you say?
Last time someone flipped me off on the freeway for cutting them off I didnt see a moderator swoop down from above to stop him from telling me I was driving like an asshat. I took the finger, got pissed off myself...but later realised "damn, I was driving like an asshat."
Deadshane1 wrote:In and of itself it isnt helpful, but what IS helpful is to be able to put ones point across in ones own words, maybe even posting a little bit of human emotion in there to get ones point across on important little tidbits. Being able to do this without having a parental figure standing over your shoulder helps in writing a creative and interesting response.
I find responses more "creative and interesting" when they don't just call my idea stupid! And proceed to point me to the "internet hawtness" one that anybody reading a codex/army book for 5 minutes would have picked up on...
Now granted, that's not how it always goes, but sometimes I see "experts" getting upset at someone wanting to use a sub-optimal list/tactic. That's a valid thing to want to do... and one you won't find discussed on most of the blogs you're citing.
Again, they'll give you great tactics and insights- but narrow ones, imho. It's certainly a good point and people who are looking for that kind of tactical advice (and sometimes I am) should certainly frequent them for that... but not expect the exact same thing to be the only type of tactic/advice "allowed" on Dakka... since it's a free forum and people can post (and try) what they like!
Ketara wrote:I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude to get their point across.
If the noob in question isn't going to take your advice, he's not going to take your advice. It doesn't matter if you're polite, or offensive, or type it out, gift wrap it, and mail it to him. I mean, does anyone here really think being offensive to someone is more likely to make them come around to your point of view? Really?
Will someone please very slowly and carefully tell me how posting to someone that their idea is 'friggin stupid' in any way contributes to helping someone's tactical capabilities develop? Because there's clearly something I'm missing here.
I sometimes think it's an american thing, then an american posts something really polite and intelligent. And I think wow.
I was always taught an empty can rattles the most. So when I see someone verbally beating some other poster to death,
I think "what a tosser" and proceed to ignore everything that poster says.
The only reason to be agressive when posting, is when your logic is weak Good advice like the truth sticks up for itself.
Ketara wrote:I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude to get their point across.
If the noob in question isn't going to take your advice, he's not going to take your advice. It doesn't matter if you're polite, or offensive, or type it out, gift wrap it, and mail it to him. I mean, does anyone here really think being offensive to someone is more likely to make them come around to your point of view? Really?
Will someone please very slowly and carefully tell me how posting to someone that their idea is 'friggin stupid' in any way contributes to helping someone's tactical capabilities develop? Because there's clearly something I'm missing here.
I sometimes think it's an american thing, then an american posts something really polite and intelligent. And I think wow.
I was always taught an empty can rattles the most. So when I see someone verbally beating some other poster to death,
I think "what a tosser" and proceed to ignore everything that poster says.
The only reason to be agressive when posting, is when your logic is weak Good advice like the truth sticks up for itself.
I was taught be polite, because the bastard you just insulted may be armed and not from this country.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshane1 wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:That isn't the way everyone behaves, though, so you are forcing your confrontational idea of personal interaction on everyone else. Also on the Internet any insults are even more likely to be taken the way that perhaps they may not have been intended.
What is actually wrong about being polite?
Sort of like life in general...off of the internet, wouldnt you say?
Last time someone flipped me off on the freeway for cutting them off I didnt see a moderator swoop down from above to stop him from telling me I was driving like an asshat. I took the finger, got pissed off myself...but later realised "damn, I was driving like an asshat."
Good thing God doesnt moderate life.
And what happens when you stop at your house and they are there too?
It also consists of about ten buttmuncher cultists who listen with rabid cultlike fascination. I'll stay with a forum format that has more people than can fit in my car thank you very much.
Like I said, I'm smart enough to cut thru the chaff. I dont need a moderator stop those little "buttmunchers" for me.
Kilkrazy wrote:That isn't the way everyone behaves, though, so you are forcing your confrontational idea of personal interaction on everyone else. Also on the Internet any insults are even more likely to be taken the way that perhaps they may not have been intended.
What is actually wrong about being polite?
It's not about being intentionally rude, you are focusing on one tiny part of things.
It's about holding people accountable for what they say. On the internet that is through calling them on a bad idea. Some people are more or less civil in how they do this. The end result though, is the interplay of ideas. If it gets a little hot in the process, oh well. Better to come to a great idea and ruffle some feathers than pat each other on the back all day and end up with a bunch of crap.
It also consists of about ten buttmuncher cultists who listen with rabid cultlike fascination. I'll stay with a forum format that has more people than can fit in my car thank you very much.
Like I said, I'm smart enough to cut thru the chaff. I dont need a moderator stop those little "buttmunchers" for me.
And thats the only view you're going to get.
It comes down to this. Some items on this thread have been helpful and may lead to other points of disciussion or at least looking at the issues in more detail.
But not politeness. If you (generic, not you specifically Deady) feel the need to be "honest," to call posters's views stupid, thats just not going to be permitted with regularity here. I can't believe people are arguing that. You want a blog where posters can be ridiculed and called stupid, start your blog and go there. This is a larger forum with many members from many different countries. Certain minimal standards apply. Thats not going to change. If you're butthurt about that, we'd like to say we're sorry, but really we're not, not at all.
Or in the immortal words of TBone:
RiTides wrote:I find responses more "creative and interesting" when they don't just call my idea stupid!
Unless I am sorely mistaken, no one is saying it's good practice to say "Stupid!" and leave it at that.
See JohnHwangDD's response to me on page 3 as a potentially ironic example.
Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.
He hasn't because he can't.
Which may be because what was actually written was this:
Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"
Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".
Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.
You could do with actually using that rule yourself instead of just quoting it. I have never dealt with you on a MOD front or in the OT section and yet I have found you to be rude and demeaning to many people and have dragged down many a thread. You shouldn't be a MOD.
Again, they'll give you great tactics and insights- but narrow ones, imho. It's certainly a good point and people who are looking for that kind of tactical advice (and sometimes I am) should certainly frequent them for that...
Narrow indeed...thats why one should'nt restrict him/herself to a single source. I go to many forums/blogs and get lots of ideas. I take what I want, and leave the rest, just like your salad bar.
but not expect the exact same thing to be the only type of tactic/advice "allowed" on Dakka... since it's a free forum and people can post (and try) what they like!
Problem is...its NOT a free forum, you cannot post what you like. Try going and telling Frazz that there is no god then putting logic behind your reasoning. "SEEN IT!" You'll find some things are indeed taboo.
(again frazz, nuttin but love for ya....you're my favorite mod! You're the one that pisses people off...thats prolly why!)
To be honest, the main issues raised seem to be forms of grammar, repeated topics, and general dumbass behaviour.
Wouldnt something like an age limit in certain topics help to some degree?
Granted, the accounts made to date would comply with this (leaving new accounts to input a fake age) but even then it cuts alot of it out.
Simply adding in an age limit to certain areas of the forum could help a little. (maybe not a huge deal, but a little improvement is better than no improvement)
I myself tend to ignore topics i dislike, however, it woukld be nice to not have to ignore alot of topics simply to find one worth reading.
As posted previously, some topics may be pointless, but this would come down to ones personal opinion.
A player looking for tactics would have no use for a topic on fluff, in which they would class as pointless to them.
My point being, alot of players look for different things on dakka, in what way would it be possible to class such topics as useful or junk? (ok, obvious ones like the same question, just an hour later, and ones with titles you cant actually read through a sea of question marks apply)
So, is there any possible way of sorting out topics of use, and topics to scrap?
Frazzled wrote:You still didn't answer how calling someone stupid is helpful.
He hasn't because he can't.
Which may be because what was actually written was this:
Deadshane1 wrote:"that idea is friggin stupid"
Which is very different than "that person is friggin stupid".
Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.
You could do with actually using that rule yourself instead of just quoting it. I have never dealt with you on a MOD front or in the OT section and yet I have found you to be rude and demeaning to many people and have dragged down many a thread. You shouldn't be a MOD.
Wait, you've never dealt with me as a mod or in the OT. How the hell else have you dealt with me then?
Come on, you know want to say it. I'm the Worst Mod Evah! In fact I should be reported. The irony of reporting a mod when you yourself are espousing a more laissez faire view of modding would be paritcularly sweet. Do it. You know you want to. Frazzled outcast un clean! Do it...
Frazzled wrote:
Thats just stupid, asininely stupid, like the kind federal government level bailout stupid.
Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.
I was taught be polite, because the bastard you just insulted may be armed and not from this country.
Frazzled wrote:
Thats just stupid, asininely stupid, like the kind federal government level bailout stupid.
Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.
I was taught be polite, because the bastard you just insulted may be armed and not from this country.
Anyone else see it or is it just me?
Awesome - and all in one thread.
What getting butthurt now? I thought thats what you wanted? Suck it up and be man, or at least put on your big girls panties for once. Come on, I'm just being honest and human.
That is the stupidest fecking comment I've ever seen on Dakka. Only a total feckwit slow descended from inbred fecktards would have written something like that.
Key point: calling an idea "stupid" is *exactly* the same as calling the person "stupid". Trying to split hairs here simply doesn't work.
An idea does not portray someones IQ, personality or any other qualities.
It is simply an idea that may have not been thought out by someone fully, there for, making the idea dumb, and not the actual person.
Now, to speak in the same terms, if you want a fething dumbass post, re-read your one ive just quoted.
I think this thread has gone WAY downhill and we need some red tag wraps around some words from a moderator to re-rail this thread back to why DakkaDakka could or could not be going down a hill.
Maybe it's my philosophy background, but I'm used to being able to tell someone "Your ideas sucks, and here's why", have them reply in kind, and then go get a beer and continue the discussion once the conference particulars are done for the day. I'm used to casual rudeness so long as it's concerned with building better ideas. Being rude because someone thinks it's funny or because you want to take someone down a peg, to insult someone, that's obviously not okay.
okay
your thought sucks
trouble is, I am not used to casual rudeness.
Not everybody has a philosophy degree in their back pocket.
We all bring personal baggage to the forum which requires some form of mediation.
ie rules of etiquette.
Calling someones idea stoopid will be seen by many as insulting. It winds people up.
on the other hand, I disagree with your idea beacause... is more concillatory and opens up dialogue.
The problem with the situation you describe above is that Dakka is not a closed group of philosophers at a symposium.
The forum is open and when you attack someone's ideas, even if that person responds calmly and there is no bloodshed, a third party may feel agrieved because it also attacks his ideas. So it escalates as more and more parties pour into defend or counyer attack.
It sets a tone of aggression which can easily feed the flames, so a mild disagreement becomes a conflagration.
Set a more amicable tone and it tends to keep things calm.
Frazzled wrote:
Thats just stupid, asininely stupid, like the kind federal government level bailout stupid.
Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.
I was taught be polite, because the bastard you just insulted may be armed and not from this country.
Anyone else see it or is it just me?
Awesome - and all in one thread.
See....this sort of logic, but throw religion into the mix.
Instant lock....well, after certain people [MOD] have their say.
I dont think dakka is going down hill as much as my tastes in websites and information has changed as I got older. I'll check in for rumors but try an avoid arguements and drama that seem to be abound in places I might not have 5-10 years ago.
Wait, you've never dealt with me as a mod or in the OT. How the hell else have you dealt with me then?
Come on, you know want to say it. I'm the Worst Mod Evah! In fact I should be reported. The irony of reporting a mod when you yourself are espousing a more laissez faire view of modding would be paritcularly sweet. Do it. You know you want to. Frazzled outcast un clean! Do it...
Never said I wanted less moderation. Care to show me where I posted that? I would actually prefer a bit more, even if I end up get an extra few warnings. However, I do want less moderation from you specifically as you are definitely the "the Worst MOD Evah". Why - because you have caused many threads to spiral down hill yourself with your downright rudeness, and not just in the OT. How many times have you supposedly suspended yourself now - 4? I remember seeing 3 in your sig but then there was a thread that crashed dramatically following a dose of Frazzled quality posting that may have resulted in another. As a MOD that is pathetic and a prime example of why you shouldn't be one. Tone comes from the top as they say.
kirsanth wrote:Even posts with more spite than tact, like JohnHwangDD's recent forays into responding to my posts have been, this is not an issue. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Even if that means saying something like, "That is the stupidest fecking comment I've ever seen on Dakka. Only a total feckwit slow descended from inbred fecktards would have written something like that", I approve of posting it if you think it's true.
Actually, I don't think that it's true at all, aside from posting it to make a point about how "stupid idea" = "stupid person". It's really more of an example of the basic chain connecting the two points you started with.
If you think I've actually been deliberately, personally spiteful, that actually wasn't the intent, and I apologize for that.
Frazzled wrote:
Thats just stupid, asininely stupid, like the kind federal government level bailout stupid.
Employs Frazzled rule:
If you said thse statements to me in person would I buy you a drink or call you out? Thinks for a sec. Yea I might call you out on it.
Remember everything's local, what might be an insult in yuour locale might put you in the morgue in another.
I was taught be polite, because the bastard you just insulted may be armed and not from this country.
Anyone else see it or is it just me?
Awesome - and all in one thread.
See....this sort of logic, but throw religion into the mix.
Instant lock....well, after certain people [MOD] have their say.
Seen it.
Free forum to say what you want indeed.....
Wait I don't see anyone locking this. I thought you were for human emotion Deady. Where's the Beef?
Wait, you've never dealt with me as a mod or in the OT. How the hell else have you dealt with me then?
Come on, you know want to say it. I'm the Worst Mod Evah! In fact I should be reported. The irony of reporting a mod when you yourself are espousing a more laissez faire view of modding would be paritcularly sweet. Do it. You know you want to. Frazzled outcast un clean! Do it...
Never said I wanted less moderation. Care to show me where I posted that? I would actually prefer a bit more, even if I end up get an extra few warnings. However, I do want less moderation from you specifically as you are definitely the "the Worst MOD Evah". Why - because you have caused many threads to spiral down hill yourself with your downright rudeness, and not just in the OT. How many times have you supposedly suspended yourself now - 4? I remember seeing 3 in your sig but then there was a thread that crashed dramatically following a dose of Frazzled quality posting that may have resulted in another. As a MOD that is pathetic and a prime example of why you shouldn't be one. Tone comes from the top as they say.
You forgot the exclamation point. Thats just stupid. Now I am not saying you're stupid, just that idea that someone would post that without the exclamation point is just mindrippingly dumb. Good thing this thread is not being Modded and politeness enforced or else I'd have a whole slew of fektards reporting me.
There's nothing wrong with being polite. Nonetheless, there's nothing wrong with being unintentionally rude either. After all, if I'm being perfectly polite by the standards of my culture, why should I be censured if I'm not being polite by the standards of your culture? I suppose I could put the effort into catering to your sensibilities, but that would beg the question about why you aren't doing the same for me.
There's nothing wrong with being polite. Nonetheless, there's nothing wrong with being unintentionally rude either. After all, if I'm being perfectly polite by the standards of my culture, why should I be censured if I'm not being polite by the standards of your culture? I suppose I could put the effort into catering to your sensibilities, but that would beg the question about why you aren't doing the same for me.
Well you can go two ways there Nurgly. You can go for bare miinimum, lowest common denominator, or you can go for a more high class joint. High class tends to get higher margins wouldn't you say?
Wait, you've never dealt with me as a mod or in the OT. How the hell else have you dealt with me then? Come on, you know want to say it. I'm the Worst Mod Evah! In fact I should be reported. The irony of reporting a mod when you yourself are espousing a more laissez faire view of modding would be paritcularly sweet. Do it. You know you want to. Frazzled outcast un clean! Do it...
Never said I wanted less moderation. Care to show me where I posted that? I would actually prefer a bit more, even if I end up get an extra few warnings. However, I do want less moderation from you specifically as you are definitely the "the Worst MOD Evah". Why - because you have caused many threads to spiral down hill yourself with your downright rudeness, and not just in the OT. How many times have you supposedly suspended yourself now - 4? I remember seeing 3 in your sig but then there was a thread that crashed dramatically following a dose of Frazzled quality posting that may have resulted in another. As a MOD that is pathetic and a prime example of why you shouldn't be one. Tone comes from the top as they say.
You forgot the exclamation point. Thats just stupid. Now I am not saying you're stupid, just that idea that someone would post that without the exclamation point is just mindrippingly dumb. Good thing this thread is not being Modded and politeness enforced or else I'd have a whole slew of fektards reporting me.
Frazzled, you are not helping the downhill DakkaDakka debate by the fact a Moderator is getting into an arguing match (whether you are treating this seriously or not) with another person in a thread dedicated to figuring out why DakkaDakka is going down hill.
Wait, you've never dealt with me as a mod or in the OT. How the hell else have you dealt with me then?
Come on, you know want to say it. I'm the Worst Mod Evah! In fact I should be reported. The irony of reporting a mod when you yourself are espousing a more laissez faire view of modding would be paritcularly sweet. Do it. You know you want to. Frazzled outcast un clean! Do it...
Never said I wanted less moderation. Care to show me where I posted that? I would actually prefer a bit more, even if I end up get an extra few warnings. However, I do want less moderation from you specifically as you are definitely the "the Worst MOD Evah". Why - because you have caused many threads to spiral down hill yourself with your downright rudeness, and not just in the OT. How many times have you supposedly suspended yourself now - 4? I remember seeing 3 in your sig but then there was a thread that crashed dramatically following a dose of Frazzled quality posting that may have resulted in another. As a MOD that is pathetic and a prime example of why you shouldn't be one. Tone comes from the top as they say.
You forgot the exclamation point. Thats just stupid. Now I am not saying you're stupid, just that idea that someone would post that without the exclamation point is just mindrippingly dumb. Good thing this thread is not being Modded and politeness enforced or else I'd have a whole slew of fektards reporting me.
Frazzled, you are not helping the downhill DakkaDakka debate by the fact a Moderator is getting into an arguing match (whether you are treating this seriously or not) with another person in a thread dedicated to figuring out why DakkaDakka is going down hill.
Just making a point WO old boy. It can go down hill pretty fast. But there should be no issue, I'm just telling it like it is. That seems to be what is being asked for.
Anybody else got a fekking problem with that, or are you to espousing stupid views?
(the above not directed at anyone espousing the above lassiez faire freedom to say what they want sort of thing, it really is liberating).
Why do people whine? I don't read half the topics here becasue they don't interest me. The ones that do interest me, I participate in. What's the problem again? The only 'problem' I see is condescending 'elder' members being rude to kids or foreigners about grammar or spellung mistakes that they know full well they can understand but just want to be snitty about it, or getting off topic flaming people for not knowing all the rules or whatever. If we all knew all the rules we wouldn't have to ask these questions with hopes for clarification or advice. Complaining that 'dakka isn't what it was' makes about as much sense as me complaining that 40k was so much better when it was Rogue Trader, back when we didn't have to play with kids. The older we get, the older the definition of 'kid' becomes too. To me it is anyone who has never used overwatch rules, or never had a figure made out of lead, but it isn't necessary to belittle people for being 'new'.
Wait, you've never dealt with me as a mod or in the OT. How the hell else have you dealt with me then?
Come on, you know want to say it. I'm the Worst Mod Evah! In fact I should be reported. The irony of reporting a mod when you yourself are espousing a more laissez faire view of modding would be paritcularly sweet. Do it. You know you want to. Frazzled outcast un clean! Do it...
Never said I wanted less moderation. Care to show me where I posted that? I would actually prefer a bit more, even if I end up get an extra few warnings. However, I do want less moderation from you specifically as you are definitely the "the Worst MOD Evah". Why - because you have caused many threads to spiral down hill yourself with your downright rudeness, and not just in the OT. How many times have you supposedly suspended yourself now - 4? I remember seeing 3 in your sig but then there was a thread that crashed dramatically following a dose of Frazzled quality posting that may have resulted in another. As a MOD that is pathetic and a prime example of why you shouldn't be one. Tone comes from the top as they say.
You forgot the exclamation point. Thats just stupid. Now I am not saying you're stupid, just that idea that someone would post that without the exclamation point is just mindrippingly dumb. Good thing this thread is not being Modded and politeness enforced or else I'd have a whole slew of fektards reporting me.
Speaking of politeness - so is it 3 or 4 times then - curious as it has been taken off your sig line.
Reecius wrote:Those are some good suggestions, dude. I think loosening up on the moderation will help a lot. We need a little drama to engage people! If it's all smiles and politeness it's boring as hell.
If drama and confrontation are what we're missing, we just need to get Stelek and Mauleed back posting regularly....
Wait, you've never dealt with me as a mod or in the OT. How the hell else have you dealt with me then?
Come on, you know want to say it. I'm the Worst Mod Evah! In fact I should be reported. The irony of reporting a mod when you yourself are espousing a more laissez faire view of modding would be paritcularly sweet. Do it. You know you want to. Frazzled outcast un clean! Do it...
Never said I wanted less moderation. Care to show me where I posted that? I would actually prefer a bit more, even if I end up get an extra few warnings. However, I do want less moderation from you specifically as you are definitely the "the Worst MOD Evah". Why - because you have caused many threads to spiral down hill yourself with your downright rudeness, and not just in the OT. How many times have you supposedly suspended yourself now - 4? I remember seeing 3 in your sig but then there was a thread that crashed dramatically following a dose of Frazzled quality posting that may have resulted in another. As a MOD that is pathetic and a prime example of why you shouldn't be one. Tone comes from the top as they say.
You forgot the exclamation point. Thats just stupid. Now I am not saying you're stupid, just that idea that someone would post that without the exclamation point is just mindrippingly dumb. Good thing this thread is not being Modded and politeness enforced or else I'd have a whole slew of fektards reporting me.
Speaking of politeness - so is it 3 or 4 times then - curious as it has been taken off your sig line.
3 actually, taken off for lack of space. I like the lawsuit one better
Keep talking your stupid ideas people. Its started up conversations behind the scenes on some of them. Any more lameass stupid ideas?
To restate:
-Need a 40K Discussions: watercooler, or modify Background to Background and Watercooler discussions. Move more mundane posts to this directory.
-Better title management or deal with titles when appropriate.
-Mayhaps some sort of like/dislike button (help me on the purpose again)
-Better search function.
-A Tactics Mod or guru (be careful what you wish for on that one.)
-Take Frazzled out, but watch out as he takes half of Dakka with him!
-Public notification that a post has already been reported or looked at.
Guitardian wrote:Why do people whine? I don't read half the topics here becasue they don't interest me. The ones that do interest me, I participate in. What's the problem again? The only 'problem' I see is condescending 'elder' members being rude to kids or foreigners about grammar or spellung mistakes that they know full well they can understand but just want to be snitty about it, or getting off topic flaming people for not knowing all the rules or whatever. If we all knew all the rules we wouldn't have to ask these questions with hopes for clarification or advice. Complaining that 'dakka isn't what it was' makes about as much sense as me complaining that 40k was so much better when it was Rogue Trader, back when we didn't have to play with kids. The older we get, the older the definition of 'kid' becomes too. To me it is anyone who has never used overwatch rules, or never had a figure made out of lead, but it isn't necessary to belittle people for being 'new'.
See, now if there was a "like" button I'd press it right here.
neil101 wrote:only being in dakka a few days , but i find it both relaxed mature , reasonable , educational friendly and inspiring , which are qualities you will rarely find on any forum let alone one to do with competetive battles
To be fair, Neil, you came to Dakka with a lot of quality content. It's hard not to be reasonable and friendly to a contributor!
Frazzled, you are not helping the downhill DakkaDakka debate by the fact a Moderator is getting into an arguing match (whether you are treating this seriously or not) with another person in a thread dedicated to figuring out why DakkaDakka is going down hill.
Just stole one of LB's posts from the other thread as i feel it helps towards the like/dislike idea.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
@John: You have my other nominations: Thor665 and Ailaros. I bet you can't find one Dakka user who has a grudge against either of them. Convincing them that this would be worth their time is another matter. DoP has already volunteered (I thought) so why not see if that enthusiasm can be put to work? Frankly, Gwar! has done a lot on Dakka and his enthusiasm could also be put to work.
-----
What purpose would a thread-already-reported button serve?
I really don't think adding more moderators is the answer.
Particularly... well... what's a good word... divisive figures. That would only lead to serious problems. Go to Alexa and look at where some of the more strictly moderated 40k Fansites are listed compared to Dakka.
There's a very practical reason why philosophers (and anyone else discussing ideas) adopt the attitude of having a thicker skin: because it's the only way to have a constructive discussion between people that disagree on fundamentals. There's no point in going down to the level of the ordinary schmuck, because then it's just a bunch of people spouting ideas and nodding/wagging heads. You either bring yourself up to the level of having a constructive discussion, or you don't have one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Manchu:
I wouldn't call it a grudge, but I don't think Ailaros is competent to perform any kind of moderation task, his lack of tactical acumen notwithstanding. Similarly Gwar is the worst kind of self-aggrandizing troll on Dakka: having the opinion that GW can get its own rules wrong should pretty much disqualify anyone from having a valid opinion on rules, and indeed the game.
@Nurglitch: Really it just comes down to needing some expertise to create the sticky. I would think that sort of work would be the trickiest part. There will be a ton of work thereafter, too, but volunteers could help. The modding thereafter is simple enough for someone who visits Dakka every day. On the other hand, I wouldn't want the "Tactics Mod" to stop posting his/her thoughts on tactics.
Come on Nurgly, if you're going to be a mod you have to sift through this stuff. Answer the scenario in the other thread. I want to see how this would work.
Deadshane1 wrote:Ok then Frazz, do you DISPUTE that you can find better tactics and list advice at the other sources I've mentioned? (cause part of me would like to hear you actually claim that the tactics/list section here is JUST as informative as the blogs and solid club forum tactics out there....why?...laughter is healthy for the soul.)
If not, why would you say that is?
It's a bit of a nonsensical leap to think that any of 'those' blogs give better tactical information because they are unmoderated. Being rude doesn't make your point better. It just means you presented your point in a rude manner.
Belittling the person you are trying to teach is not conducive to having them actually absorb what you're trying to teach them.
And, as I asked in the other thread, is your toy soldier hobby really such serious business that people need to be stomped into the ground because they have a different opinion to your own? If you post what you think is a piece of tactical brilliance, and the person on the other side of the discussion doesn't immediately recognise said brilliance, does the world shift on its axis?
If you can't make your point in a polite fashion, maybe it's time to stop and think about just how badly the point actually needs to be made.
While tactics are not my strong point, alot of basic computer work is fine, and i spend alot of time on here.
Im more than happy to put my name forward for basic jobs, or anything that needs doing on here.
So, count me in if there are jobs that need to be done.
I would suggest a rep system without any dislike options. Where users can reward good posts with points. Limit the amount of points a user can give per week to make people put a bit of thought into who they reward. Then get rid of the post count, totally or at the least stop it being displayed under a users avatar in threads, display their rep instead.
With any luck you may then get a forum with users focused on making good posts, rather than topping up their post count. Less spam, more substance. Win win.
Deadshane1 wrote:Ok then Frazz, do you DISPUTE that you can find better tactics and list advice at the other sources I've mentioned? (cause part of me would like to hear you actually claim that the tactics/list section here is JUST as informative as the blogs and solid club forum tactics out there....why?...laughter is healthy for the soul.)
If not, why would you say that is?
It's a bit of a nonsensical leap to think that any of 'those' blogs give better tactical information because they are unmoderated. Being rude doesn't make your point better. It just means you presented your point in a rude manner.
Belittling the person you are trying to teach is not conducive to having them actually absorb what you're trying to teach them.
And, as I asked in the other thread, is your toy soldier hobby really such serious business that people need to be stomped into the ground because they have a different opinion to your own? If you post what you think is a piece of tactical brilliance, and the person on the other side of the discussion doesn't immediately recognise said brilliance, does the world shift on its axis?
If you can't make your point in a polite fashion, maybe it's time to stop and think about just how badly the point actually needs to be made.
I'm not talking about being rude to get your point across.
I'm talking about being able to get your point across in a manner suitable to your personality. Being able to post freely and insert some emotion into your post without being chastised for it.
In the end, I will look/post in the tactics section to get/give tactics, not to get a lesson in etiquette. Like I said, I'm smart enough to look past someone's rudeness and get their point. I dont need a moderator to protect me.
Furthermore, perhaps its true that you dont need to be rude to get your point across. I'll respond to that with another tired cliche'.
It takes two to argue. Rarely have I seen discussions where out of two people, one is continuously rude and the other is continuously civil. If you dont like a way an arguement is going, its not hard to say something on the order of..."Look, I'm trying to understand your point of veiw but I really cant. Perhaps you could explain it again another way without belittleing my position. Right now I tend to disagree...but some of what you're saying makes sense."
I personally would rather have the option of saying something like that rather than having a mod step in as a 3rd party to protect me. I'm old and adult enough to handle my own arguements thank you.
whatwhat wrote:I would suggest a rep system without any dislike options. Where users can reward good posts with points. Limit the amount of points a user can give per week to make people put a bit of thought into who they reward. Then get rid of the post count, totally or at the least stop it being displayed under a users avatar in threads, display their rep instead.
With any luck you may then get a forum with users focused on making good posts, rather than topping up their post count. Less spam, more substance. Win win.
whatwhat wrote:I would suggest a rep system without any dislike options. Where users can reward good posts with points. Limit the amount of points a user can give per week to make people put a bit of thought into who they reward. Then get rid of the post count, totally or at the least stop it being displayed under a users avatar in threads, display their rep instead.
With any luck you may then get a forum with users focused on making good posts, rather than topping up their post count. Less spam, more substance. Win win.
Any good?
+1 for thought
I'd be into this if it was Moderator based.
If it was up to random users to vote on this it could get very silly very quickly.
Deadshane1 wrote:I personally would rather have the option of saying something like that rather than having a mod step in as a 3rd party to protect me. I'm old and adult enough to handle my own arguements thank you.
It's not to protect you. It's to protect everyone else from having to read another flame war.
The problem with the way politeness is being enforced is that anytime there is disagreement the whole thread gets locked and a lot of good content can be lost at the same time.
It would be far far better if just the offending content was removed and the thread allowed to continue.
The way it is now is "Fair and balanced" in the same way the news in the US is... every kook gets equal airtime with no regard to what the actual facts of the situation are. If you offend one of these kooks and he goes off on a rampage, the whole discussion gets shut down. This results in a board where no meaningful exchange of ideas can occur and only the bland threads are allowed to stand.
You should be able to post in a thread with a reasonable expectation of the whole thread not being closed for someone else's infraction, oftentimes I am thinking why bother because this thread is going to be closed anyway.
Basically you are catering to the lowest common denominator.
whatwhat wrote:I would suggest a rep system without any dislike options. Where users can reward good posts with points. Limit the amount of points a user can give per week to make people put a bit of thought into who they reward. Then get rid of the post count, totally or at the least stop it being displayed under a users avatar in threads, display their rep instead.
With any luck you may then get a forum with users focused on making good posts, rather than topping up their post count. Less spam, more substance. Win win.
Any good?
+1 for thought
I'd be into this if it was Moderator based.
If it was up to random users to vote on this it could get very silly very quickly.
That did cross my mind. Perhaps if you made it so the more rep you have the more points you can give per week, it might go someway to solve that.
whatwhat wrote:I would suggest a rep system without any dislike options. Where users can reward good posts with points. Limit the amount of points a user can give per week to make people put a bit of thought into who they reward. Then get rid of the post count, totally or at the least stop it being displayed under a users avatar in threads, display their rep instead.
With any luck you may then get a forum with users focused on making good posts, rather than topping up their post count. Less spam, more substance. Win win.
Any good?
Surely the post count is necessary for any "rep" system to be effective though? Otherwise someone could have 100 thanks, and someone else could have 3, but both have the same number of posts, but without the post count it would be impossible to determine who is more reliable.
whatwhat wrote:I would suggest a rep system without any dislike options. Where users can reward good posts with points. Limit the amount of points a user can give per week to make people put a bit of thought into who they reward. Then get rid of the post count, totally or at the least stop it being displayed under a users avatar in threads, display their rep instead.
With any luck you may then get a forum with users focused on making good posts, rather than topping up their post count. Less spam, more substance. Win win.
Any good?
Surely the post count is necessary for any "rep" system to be effective though? Otherwise someone could have 100 thanks, and someone else could have 3, but both have the same number of posts, but without the post count it would be impossible to determine who is more reliable.
Well for one, a post count doesn't go any way towards determining who is more reliable. I suppose their could be a limit to the amount of points you can receive per post though.
But really I wasn't presenting that as a way of determining who is more reliable, but a system to get people trying to post more good posts, with a view to get a higher rep.
Deadshane1 wrote:I'm talking about being able to get your point across in a manner suitable to your personality. Being able to post freely and insert some emotion into your post without being chastised for it.
So long as 'suited to your personality' fits into acceptable standards of behaviour, you don't have a problem.
'Acceptable' is, as in real life, defined by the venue. We moderate dakka in a fashion we feel is appropriate for the cross-section of posters who frequent the boards. We expect posters to abide by those standards, just as your local gaming store, or your pub, or your sports club, or shopping centre all have their standards that they feel are appropriate, that they expect patrons to abide by.
If you dont like a way an arguement is going, its not hard to say something on the order of..."Look, I'm trying to understand your point of veiw but I really cant. Perhaps you could explain it again another way without belittleing my position. Right now I tend to disagree...but some of what you're saying makes sense."
And if you do that, chances are the mods will leave the thread alone, with possibly a private warning if the other poster was out of line. If you're not being rude, you don't have a problem.
I'm finding less threads that I'm interested in lately. I typically click 'recent threads', scan those subjects, and click the ones that seem interesting.
"All very successful commanders are prima donnas and must be so treated." - George S. Patton
I think what Deadshane is saying is true. People with interesting things to say have moved on to blogs, because they can be prima donnas (read as donkey-caves) on their own blog and no one can call them on it.
I find that to be a sad state of affairs, really. On one hand, you get a more polite site by removing those elements, but maybe there's something to what Patton said. If I want to push my theory of gaming and put down anyone who disagrees with it, why do that on a site where I get slapped for doing so, when I can just set up a blog and get followers.
Forums seem to me more like the local bar. You can show up, be social, and trade viewpoints. If someone gets out of hand, the bouncer or barkeep might toss them. Blogs are more like the guy who puts down a soapbox on the corner and stands on it yelling his thoughts as loudly as possible. You might get a discussion there once in a while, but it's more being preached at. Useful, I guess, if you want to see what other people are doing, but not a community. It's kind of sad that so many people with worthwhile things to say have taken up the soapbox instead of the bar. A triumph of the ego over the community, as it were.
I don't know if there's anything to be done about it though. It's a social issue (or, perhaps, an anti-social issue), not a technical one.
I think the mods here are even handed. I got a short banning once because I can't keep my mouth shut. Totally my fault. This is a forum for the discussion of Man-Dollies. So long as I remember that, I'll do just fine.
If people are being dicks to each other, there should be some hand-slapping. The slaps should be progressively harsher after successive infractions. Don't be a dick. If you be a dick, you'll get punished. The MODs and ADMINs of these boards have established the level of freedom that they're going to give people. If you don't like it or can't accept it, go elsewhere.
I've noticed more "silly posts" (re: Which Primarch is Better in the Sack) here than at Bolter and Chainsword, but there appears to be much higher traffic here. The more popular anyting is, the more diverse your users will be. In the other thread, there was a suggestion for a "Water Cooler" lounge for such sillyness. Talking about Primarch's spankers isn't really background so much as it is off-topic (not to mention juivenille). I wouldn't want to flood the Background forum and annoy the people that are (1) trying to write fluff for their chapter/army that is close to the established cannon (if any) OR (2) Want to go outside the established cannon (if any).
Well, part of the problem is we've also got a much bigger population(and supposedly a large portion of that is the preteens/adolescents who're just hitting puberty...make of that what you will).
You've also got people who just like posting those topics to be obnoxious.
well to be honest i've only been back on the site a short whilr( although i used to cain the hell out of it about 5 yrs ago)
and i like it in the last yr or so i've noticed that the army lists and tactis sections are usually posted in by the spazmatics of the community and every time i post my lists i get some of the worst advice i've ever know.
but saying that theres some great gak on here. I love the rules section and the articals are some of the best on the web. I am however getting very annoyed with the amount of posts that are being opened just so someone can post a link to their blog.
and finaly yak and lb should tell the mods to ease of a bit you get too many PM's for silly things and then when you check you find out your post hasn't even been modified or removed
Shadowbrand wrote:Honestly dakka is growing and with growth comes trouble. At least their are SOME rules here.
These are all what comes with success.
Except that the "rules" only apply to certain people and when the whim strikes the people "enforcing" the "rules".
Also: Moderator Trolling for the Fail.
So if you're right on a whim we should ban you?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote:I voted "the same".
I think the mods here are even handed. I got a short banning once because I can't keep my mouth shut. Totally my fault. This is a forum for the discussion of Man-Dollies. So long as I remember that, I'll do just fine.
If people are being dicks to each other, there should be some hand-slapping. The slaps should be progressively harsher after successive infractions. Don't be a dick. If you be a dick, you'll get punished. The MODs and ADMINs of these boards have established the level of freedom that they're going to give people. If you don't like it or can't accept it, go elsewhere.
I've noticed more "silly posts" (re: Which Primarch is Better in the Sack) here than at Bolter and Chainsword, but there appears to be much higher traffic here. The more popular anyting is, the more diverse your users will be. In the other thread, there was a suggestion for a "Water Cooler" lounge for such sillyness. Talking about Primarch's spankers isn't really background so much as it is off-topic (not to mention juivenille). I wouldn't want to flood the Background forum and annoy the people that are (1) trying to write fluff for their chapter/army that is close to the established cannon (if any) OR (2) Want to go outside the established cannon (if any).
thats an issue. There is some disagreement/discussion on where best to put those. Just wacking them goes against old Dakka laissez faire though.
Croggy wrote:I am however getting very annoyed with the amount of posts that are being opened just so someone can post a link to their blog.
This. It's friggin' obnoxious. Post your blog link in your sig, or at the end of a WIP thread.
Don't just open a new topic, post a link to a blog and then end it.
Also, the "podcasts" threads are getting to the level of spam in my personal opinion.
Again, same advice as with the blogs... just make a single thread/topic, make a post about what you're doing, explain it a bit, link to where your podcast can be found...and then update it as necessary, with a link to the podcast in your sig.
I think Redbeard's post really had a lot more focus than what I was saying. The Patton quote and the bar/soapbox analogy rings very true to me.
For the record, I still think dakka is a great place and I have fun posting here. I just wouldnt turn anyone but the lowliest and most clueless noob in this direction for games help....any serious help is severely in danger of getting lost in the gaggle of squawking geeses!
Barroom indeed. 'specially with all the drunken posting that goes on around here, Frazz, Dash, myself...*hic*
Deadshane1 wrote:Unfortunatly, I think dakka now caters to these people that refuse to improve in their game. The list/tactics section of dakka (which used to be my favorite long long ago) would be a much more serious place with personalities like Stelek, Mauleed, Gwar, and many others who have offended people over the years given free reign to "lay it down" unfortunatly, people get frustrated. Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.
Considering you started a thread on here not too long ago bitching at Stelek and others for saying mean things about people's armies I find this hilarious. Still, not the first example of blatant hypocrisy from you.
Deadshane1 wrote:I was reading one attendee's list breakdown of opponents this morning on a site, and the peanut gallery that responded to the post had nothing to say about the opponents but things like...."Was he drunk when he made that list?" "Those armies are full of fail" "f&*kinc stupid" ect, you get the idea. How nice.
...and dont even get me started on all the greif leveled at GW for these missions that "Werent thought out in the least.", "totally unfair", or "the most slowed missions I've ever seen, do they even play this game?" (key word there is GAME).
At the risk of sounding like some Casual Gaming Mafioso, these guys have REALLY lost sight of what this game is all about. I'm actually one of the more competetive gamers out there mentally, and even I find myself wincing at these comments I see everywhere. My first reaction is to feel like I want to pit my toughest list on the board and tell these guys to "nut up or shut up", then after a little thought I just shake my head at these "experts".
People SERIOUSLY need to calm down. If someone feilds 10 firedragons in a waveserpent at Ard Boys, that doesnt make him a slow, it simply means that he wanted to use 10 firedragons. Nothing more, nothing less. I suspect that whoever wrote the 3rd mission for Ard Boys knows "just a little" about 40k. He probably actually plays it too. However, some of the people out there that really hate the missions this year would probably tell you otherwise in their infinate wisdom.
Hey guys...GAME...you see, thats the word. Noones life is dependant on the rules for mission three. No families are going to go hungry because so-and-so thinks vanguard vets are the coolest thing ever so "why not bring 3 full squads?" Can we calm down and let people have FUN with the GAME? PLEASE?
Deadshane1 wrote:Unfortunatly, I think dakka now caters to these people that refuse to improve in their game. The list/tactics section of dakka (which used to be my favorite long long ago) would be a much more serious place with personalities like Stelek, Mauleed, Gwar, and many others who have offended people over the years given free reign to "lay it down" unfortunatly, people get frustrated. Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.
Considering you started a thread on here not too long ago bitching at Stelek and others for saying mean things about people's armies I find this hilarious. Still, not the first example of blatant hypocrisy from you.
Deadshane1 wrote:1."Is dakkadakka going down hill?" question posed
2.Drunken Ork emoticon created
3.Problem fix'd
4.World Peace and chocolate for everyone.
Hey, the facepalm orkmoticon happened! Someone start a thread in nuts and bolts and see if some 'shop guru can hack a drunken orkmoticon... I'm thinking some combination of this one: (opening mouth) and an animated beer bottle
Reecius wrote:Yes. Some of the good stuff is still good.
...
Dakka is a lot nicer of a place now, for which there is something to be said, but it is also so much less useful in those regards than it used to be.
That though, is only this one man's opinion of course.
There's no denying that Dakka has changed over the years. When was it that Dakka was mentioned as shark infested waters, or something to that effect, in WD? Now we have Yak and Gonads getting sneak peaks 6 months in advance...
I have no idea what people are looking for as incentive to post good content. Isn't knowing you've added to the community good enough? I remember HBMC's CSM review. I don't think he expected anything from it other than to get a good discussion going and the knowledge that he wrote a funny (and correct) review.
I will say that the articles section is a complete mess. I'd like to see some basic rules for that section and all of its garbage flushed to the depths of the internet.
I've had a problem with that section for a while so I'm going to see what I can do about it. May I suggest users taking issue with Dakka's content, or lack of, help out by contributing more content? Saying you don't contribute good content because there's no good content seems counter productive to me.
Frazzled wrote:-Mayhaps some sort of like/dislike button (help me on the purpose again)
-A Tactics Mod or guru (be careful what you wish for on that one.)
The Like/Dislike button is to encourage popularity contests, but without auto-hide, it's not really useful. I still think it becomes a game.
I nominate DoP and Gwar! as joint Tactics Mods. Tactics are only valid if *both* agree.
That's not the point of having a tactics moderator. Tactics doesn't need someone to decide what is or isn't a valid tactic, simply to index the discussions so that future posters can quickly find them on a sticky post - so that the SAME threads don't have to keep being recreated over and over and over. That, and enforcing standards of posting in the tactics section, such that reading the title of a thread will give information about what is contained within the post.
Well, from 2005 to 2008 I ghosted the site and in late 2008 I became a member. So based on those experiences:
News and Rumors: No change. Basically repeats what others see on Warseer or BOLS. I still go there regularly though as it is a good place to find compilations. I think that GW more recent policy of putting the cabosh on leaks has negatively impacted this forum.
P&M: Best part of the website IMO. I think that this is greate as far as a resource and guide goes. I know I have learned a lot due to the contributions of regular posters like Grey Death and LB. The Dakka Gallery I feel has been a great tool in allowing people to readily share information as well as to search tags. As far as Polonius statement, I kinda disagree. Noteably because I see several threads that wrack up high post counts for which the artist doesn't possess Demon quality paint skills but instead has a original idea (X-Men) or paint scheme (relictors). I think it has more to do with whether your thread generates interest (concept, paint skill, conversion skill, ect.). Finally, unlike tournement big-wigs, some of the best painters in our hobby do contribute regularly to these forums.
P&M Bloggs: See above
P&M Tutorials: See above
Warhammer 40K:
Lists: Saddly, our heavy hitters (tourney winners) here on Dakka don't seam to contribute to this thread very often. I don't think allowing posters to be caustic will encourage veteran players to participate in this forum/quite the opposite really.
Tactics: Same as above.
Battle Reports: Some of the 40K tournement regulars like Red Beard and Dash of Pepper post on this forum. So if you want some advice on lists and tactics, you can probabaly eak some knowledge out of these. Still feel like a lot of Tourney goers don't contrubute; for instance, Madison, WI has quite a few really good players, but only "Norbu the Destroyer" contributes to this forum.
YMDC: I would say that this another more usefull section of Dakka, especially now that its regular posters have learned to apply (some) more tact in answering quiries. Still room for improvement. I disagree vehemently with Reecus that we should encourage a "Jerry Springer" environment. I have no problem with a poster being "firm" with thier answer, but being insulting or abusive usually just drives others to embrace thier position that much more.
OT: After reading a couple dozen threads when I first joined, I now avoid this forum like herpes. See my comment on YMDC.
@Gamble
You are right, of course. But when you post good content and legions of bad content overrides the good stuff, it gets buried and it feels pointless. Add to this the fact that if you disagree with people and they get upset and call in the Mod Squad, things go nowhere. And that isn't a cut at the MODS's you guys are doing your jobs.
I just think that in certain areas of Dakka, the rules should be a little different. Post clearly what people should expect.
For example. In the tactics and lists area here are my suggestions:
Rules for titling a thread: Include pertinent information such as army, points value, name of tactic (if relevant) and most importantly: COMPETITIVE or FLUFF.
That way posters know right away what type of advice the OP is looking for. If he is a fluff oriented player looking for fluff oriented tactics or list building advice, the tournament players won't enter the discussion and vice versa. That will avoid a lot of the problems right there.
Also, as in YMDC, have a sticky telling people how to have an intelligent tactics discussion. Use FACTS backed by math and direct experience to argue a point, not OPINIONS. Let people know if they don't back their assertions, they will get called out on it. This makes us all BETTER, even if it seems rude at first. This doesn't mean everyone can be a dick, but it does mean pointing out a gakky idea for what it is won't get you moderated.
Also, let people know that in YMDC, Lists and Tactics, that arguments may get heated. Let people know that they can argue their point passionately and that is OK!! Don't take things personally, it is just the net for crying out loud.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Wyomingfox
I hate Jerry Springer!!#$!%#$
That isn't what i meant. What I meant is holding people accountable for what they post. If that means you have to get a little bit of vinegar, then so be it. I don't advocate being mean for meanness sake. I refer to the way things were when I came to Dakka. Tactics and List advice was rock solid because silly ideas were scorned. Did people get their feelings hurt? Yes, if they were thin skinned. But was the information useful? Absolutely.
If the price of quality is a tough environment, then I gladly accept that.
Like I said, I don't advocate being mean for no reason, but people should be held to a standard of intelligent posting.
Deadshane1 wrote:It's so hard to teach people how to play "good" 40k. Sometimes I think that they simply dont even WANT to learn.
That can be true, and for those people I certainly understand why you guys would ignore them. But that doesn't explain why we are not seeing threads started by the master tacticians themselves on why they developed thier lists or how to counter them.
Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.
Because the statement you posted has no knowledge or explanation behind it. You are not teaching or instructing anything with that kind of statement, so how would a statement like that encourage or help people to change thier behaviour. Be firm when giving answers and provide adequate explanations and you will have a much better time instructing newbies.
Interesting that the summary and most of the discussions have centred around 40k so far as I can tell
I get a whole different vibe on WHFB and Skirmish forums. Whether this will remain the same with the IoB release remains to be seen. Maybe a lot have already dropped the box in hot pursuit of Dark Eldar!
But they appear to me to be a lot friendlier and prove that people can disagree without name calling or rudeness. There are several people who are absolute gems who contribute a lot to this site but just go about it without fuss. They provide a good place to be for the rest of us that go there.
I can appreciate the feeling. Thing is, there was never any incentive to post good content. It just happened. Why, many years later, do some feel the need to be compensated, in any way, for posting good content? I'll leave this issue alone now.
On another note, I 100% agree with your "Title fix". The trade forum has clear rules on how to title a thread and why. Instead of country of origin (UK/ USA), Fluff/ Competative would go a long way to fixing some issues. Good idea.
Gwar! has contributed enough in YMDC , and countless have benefit it from him.
There is no contest to who else more suitable.
Also , despite numerous members that display blatant trolling and animosity ,
Gwar! has held patience with MULTIPLE threads at a time , and only lose patience at around page 11.
Think about it , Gwar! been rude? 6 threads going x 11 pages ( the amount when hes accused of been rude ). If thats not patience i dont know what is.
Animosity aside , even the haters must agree hes rather impressive.
Also , i dont feel there need to be heavier mods , it wont change anything but drive members away especially ones that should have been on "long vacation" and still havnt.
Why? because , what we need is consistency and fairness. Which itself leads to balance , respect , and control.
Quite frankly I am astonished at some of the posts here. Maybe it is an age thing - don't know and frankly don't care.
The First rule is very clear. Be Polite! Golden Rule taught at most schools as far as I know and transcends Christianity so don't start a religious/atheist debate here Treat others how you expect to be treated. If you like being harried and railed at that is not an invitation to do the same to others.
I cannot believe the total lack of respect that some people are showing in order to justify their rudeness.
Rant mode: OFF GOM mode: OFF Bedtime Horlicks malty drink: ON Comfy Slippers: ON and relax...
Redbeard wrote:I think what Deadshane is saying is true. People with interesting things to say have moved on to blogs, because they can be prima donnas (read as donkey-caves) on their own blog and no one can call them on it.
I find that to be a sad state of affairs, really. On one hand, you get a more polite site by removing those elements, but maybe there's something to what Patton said. If I want to push my theory of gaming and put down anyone who disagrees with it, why do that on a site where I get slapped for doing so, when I can just set up a blog and get followers.
That may be true of some, but I have met several in the Madison area who are really good players and were honestly put off of Dakka's earlier years due to Posters like Stelek who were in general needlessly rude.
It's not a need to be compensated, it's a need to feel like we're not just pissing into the wind. It's one thing to write a careful and considered answer to someone's thread topic, and it's another thing to have that answer disappear under two metric tons of spam, trolling, flames, and snark. It would be nice to have someone reply in kind, and in fact more than just someone, but several people.
It's not a need to be compensated, it's a need to feel like we're not just pissing into the wind. It's one thing to write a careful and considered answer to someone's thread topic, and it's another thing to have that answer disappear under two metric tons of spam, trolling, flames, and snark. It would be nice to have someone reply in kind, and in fact more than just someone, but several people.
Pretty much this. I put time and thought into my posts, and as often as not get zero replies.
Lists: Saddly, our heavy hitters (tourney winners) here on Dakka don't seam to contribute to this thread very often. I don't think allowing posters to be caustic will encourage veteran players to participate in this forum/quite the opposite really.
Tactics: Same as above.
Battle Reports: Some of the 40K tournement regulars like Red Beard and Dash of Pepper post on this forum. So if you want some advice on lists and tactics, you can probabaly eak some knowledge out of these. Still feel like a lot of Tourney goers don't contrubute; for instance, Madison, WI has quite a few really good players, but only "Norbu the Destroyer" contributes to this forum.
*WHY* don't the heavy hitters contribute in Army Lists? There was a time when 50% of the posts in Army lists were Ork lists, and the "last posted by" was Dashofpepper. I have....4,000 posts on Dakka? 2,000 of them at least were made in Army lists. This kind of bulls*it is why I don't post there anymore. Most of the serious tournament players around the country know each other - and we each have different reasons for not posting there - but the best theme that could explain it is that the units you take are less important than how you use them and what your playstyle calls for - and the exploration of those things require extensive questioning of the OP if they don't know how to naturally express these things. There are dozens and hundreds of people who are willing to chime in and give bad advice. A thread titled "Should I use Lootas or more boyz in my list?" will invariably result in a bunch of people professing their opinion on the matter when in truth - all of them are worthless because no one asked HOW the OP uses their list, or what theme they're after, or what their playstyle calls for. The effort to both garner the information required to offer a useful opinion while also having your thoughts heard above the voluminous garbage of advice being thrown around is singularly responsible for most of us not posting there.
I used to write BOOKS of advice in Army lists. I see Ork threads all the time where people reference or link something I previously wrote, or give a nod in my direction. You know WHY I have a signature? I got tired of my advice being scoffed at. "Who are you to give advice?" "Your opinion isn't any better than anyone elses!" I used to track my "friendly games" records on there as well, and got tired of people accusing me of making up my win/loss ratio. Always from fekking Dakka trolls who themselves contribute nothing to Dakka except to find those who *do* contribute and try tearing down their work. I put my record into my signature so that when I gave advice, it would lend credence to my words so that I wouldn't have to explain myself over and over, and walk through the same tired scenarios of why my advice was worth listening to - but that it would rather be "Here's my thoughts. I fekking own at this game. Choose to listen or not." Some people listen and appreciate. Others take offense that I dare declare myself an above-average gamer.
I don't post there anymore because even with all my efforts, and trying to create articles and themes for people to follow, and adaptations for playstyles.....the trolling, the noise ratio, the ridiculousness of what people endure when they try providing useful material to Dakkaites is absurd.
Tactics? Same thing. You can read plenty of first hand accounts of article authors that don't write anymore because the garbage just overflows useful information, and there's no control over it.
Batreps? After I abandoned my gargantuan efforts in bringing useful content to Army Lists, I decided to do batreps instead. Intense, insightful, analysis of how I play, how my opponents play, the thought processes I use to get where I'm going in a game.....and these got bogged down with the same stupid bullcrap. I'm not sure I've EVER written a batrep - FLGS tourney, major RTT, fething GT or otherwise where someone didn't show up in the thread and say, "Jeez, too bad you didn't face any decent opponents; if you'd had to face a real opponent, you would have been toast." Seriously - as if I've been in 60-70 major tournament games and every one of my opponents stinks - that's obviously the only reason I won. That, or the batrep devolves into drama, usually something that belongs in YMDC. It got so ridiculous that I decided not to write batreps anymore either - the flak that I took and the trouble I had to endure to try bringing something of value to this website were not worth the effort.
And here we have moderators telling us "If you don't like Dakka, GTFO and start a blog." Are you guys SERIOUS? Driving away the people who bring the content that DRAW users to Dakka is not the solution. Over the last couple years I have worked my ASS off to try bringing content to Dakka, to help its users, to shine light through the darkness, and my monstrous efforts have been shat upon. This thread and the multitude of other threads that have popped up since I started the the "Save Dakka Thread" are the only avenue I can really still think of to try bringing something useful to Dakka. I know that *MY* efforts to bring content have been drowned by the garbage that proliferates through Dakka like a used playboy in a prison block. Since I can't bring content because of the S:N ratio, the only contribution that I can really think of that I could bring would be to help start screening the noise.
1.) I'd love to see a reputation system for posters. Obviously for what our coders get paid, I am aware that may be an unreasonable request.
2.) I mostly come to see the rumors and discuss the news. Yes, I know they are all essentially recycled Warseer rumors. I don't care. If I wanted to be at Warseer, I'd be there.
3.) So far as YMDC, it has been the single most useful resource since I started 40K. The community overall has been enormously helpful and friendly. In 19 months, I've only had to put 2 people on ignore. As a newish player, I enjoy knowing I can ask a basic question without being called slowed.
4.) I love the gallery functionality.
5.) I've only used the swap shop twice, but it's gone well both times. I'm not much of a swapper.
6.) I haven't spent a lot of time in the Army list section, but from what I have seen, there is some pretty dubious stuff going on: some advice that was pretty flaky. The people who wisely answer questions in YMDC appear not the generally frequent this area. I think a reputation system would help here.
7.) Moderation: I have some thoughts here. Specifically, I've found it to be occasionally uneven. In some cases, threads are allowed to go on for far too long after there is no value, in my opinion ("difficult terrain destroys vehicles"). In others, they are closed too quickly. Specifically, at least one thread was posted where someone posted about a new Eldar product that I suspected was recast (lets not re-hash that please, just summarizing). It turned into an IPqusition and got locked. I regret that I instigated/participated in that. A better outcome would have been a mod posting in the thread that IP discussions are offtopic, and then leaving the thread open - I think the "lock" trigger got pulled too quickly, and essentially someone else (the OP) got boned by having their thread closed because of someone else's actions (me). I have seen that happen several times (although I only caused it once, and have regretted it since).
There are several threads that continually recur that I'd like to see not recur - "Space Marines vs Starcraft", "Women can't be space marines" etc etc. On the other hand, I am completely capable of ignoring what I don't like. In that area, if the community enjoys them, they have spoken, but I suspect more posters find them tedious then not.
I haven't always been as respectful to DoP as I should have been, but I think part of that is that I was simply jealous of the acclaim and success he's had. The rest is partially due to style, I'm simply an understated guy.
That said, I'd like to say I agree with him here. I think there is value to Dakka being a top notch competitive discussion board. Maybe I'm wrong, but he gets a lot of crap despite being one of the engines that drives the traffic.
I think that's what some of us find galling: the cynicism that underlies the attitude the staff has to top posters. Some of that traffic is brought in by people actually creating content.
1.) I'd love to see a reputation system for posters. Obviously for what our coders get paid, I am aware that may be an unreasonable request.
2.) I mostly come to see the rumors and discuss the news. Yes, I know they are all essentially recycled Warseer rumors. I don't care. If I wanted to be at Warseer, I'd be there.
3.) So far as YMDC, it has been the single most useful resource since I started 40K. The community overall has been enormously helpful and friendly. In 19 months, I've only had to put 2 people on ignore. As a newish player, I enjoy knowing I can ask a basic question without being called slowed.
4.) I love the gallery functionality.
5.) I've only used the swap shop twice, but it's gone well both times. I'm not much of a swapper.
6.) I haven't spent a lot of time in the Army list section, but from what I have seen, there is some pretty dubious stuff going on: some advice that was pretty flaky. The people who wisely answer questions in YMDC appear not the generally frequent this area. I think a reputation system would help here.
7.) Moderation: I have some thoughts here. Specifically, I've found it to be occasionally uneven. In some cases, threads are allowed to go on for far too long after there is no value, in my opinion ("difficult terrain destroys vehicles"). In others, they are closed too quickly. Specifically, at least one thread was posted where someone posted about a new Eldar product that I suspected was recast (lets not re-hash that please, just summarizing). It turned into an IPqusition and got locked. I regret that I instigated/participated in that. A better outcome would have been a mod posting in the thread that IP discussions are offtopic, and then leaving the thread open - I think the "lock" trigger got pulled too quickly, and essentially someone else (the OP) got boned by having their thread closed because of someone else's actions (me). I have seen that happen several times (although I only caused it once, and have regretted it since).
There are several threads that continually recur that I'd like to see not recur - "Space Marines vs Starcraft", "Women can't be space marines" etc etc. On the other hand, I am completely capable of ignoring what I don't like. In that area, if the community enjoys them, they have spoken, but I suspect more posters find them tedious then not.
Maybe we should have a kiddies section, where people could post these threads. j/k
Well, mostly better. YMDC needs to stop whining when people go RAW. OT is fine, it's the same threads re-hashed over and over. 40k Background is kinda lame, tons of poorly executed crossover crap and cliche "Super Awesome x2 Marines" or "Super Emo x2 Chaos Marines" Custom Chapter stuff. Proposed rules gets somewhat annoying every now and then, but it's fine.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Once upon a time if you posted something stupid, you'd get called on it. These days, if you call on someone for posting something stupid, you get a warning.
Wasn't here for that but I agree
Dakka seems cool. I'll admit I'm probably contributing to it's decline, I guess. But aside from me, it seems like more 'warseer' types have moved here. Dakkites are much different from other 40k forums. More intelligence, more creativity. Better jokes, better responses to flaming. Not to much trolling here, aside from the occasional 'cool story bro' (which is usually put in as a joke, not as a meaningless trolling )
Dakka has one of the best OT boards on the international network, and Albatross, Metallifan, shadwbrand and crew make it all worth mentioning. All of you OT guys, really
I like dakka. It makes me remember that most of the people here are normal and have completely real lives. Dakkadakka is a breath of fresh air in a rather stagnant section of the bloggosphere.
40k Background is kinda lame, tons of poorly executed crossover crap and cliche "Super Awesome x2 Marines" or "Super Emo x2 Chaos Marines" Custom Chapter stuff.
Completely agree. Most Homebrew chapters are IMO, poorly done and uncreative. We really don't want to hear about them. Paint your army. Play your army. It doesn't need fluff. Keyword there is 'MOST'. I love seeing a well done homebrew chapter, like the sons of orar or tony_nids10's emperor's shields. And this one...http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/301013.page
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Ouze wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:I'll admit I'm probably contributing to it's decline, I guess.
Only when you non-ironically use words like "blogosphere".
I had a fascinating discussion with some friends about internet synonyms, and I had to use a couple in my post
Ouze wrote:There are several threads that continually recur that I'd like to see not recur - "Space Marines vs Starcraft", "Women can't be space marines" etc etc.
Maybe we should have a kiddies section, where people could post these threads. j/k
Maybe they should be stickied, so that people would keep restarting them.
loki old fart wrote:There are several threads that continually recur that I'd like to see not recur - "Space Marines vs Starcraft", "Women can't be space marines" etc etc.
Maybe we should have a kiddies section, where people could post these threads. j/k
Maybe they should be stickied, so that people would keep restarting them.
Yeah, that actually makes sense. Have a special board called "retards only". The explanation would be simply :"HURRRR"
Redbeard wrote:I think what Deadshane is saying is true. People with interesting things to say have moved on to blogs, because they can be prima donnas (read as donkey-caves) on their own blog and no one can call them on it.
I find that to be a sad state of affairs, really. On one hand, you get a more polite site by removing those elements, but maybe there's something to what Patton said. If I want to push my theory of gaming and put down anyone who disagrees with it, why do that on a site where I get slapped for doing so, when I can just set up a blog and get followers.
That may be true of some, but I have met several in the Madison area who are really good players and were honestly put off of Dakka's earlier years due to Posters like Stelek who were in general needlessly rude.
No one wants more Steleks. That guy was just over the top arrogant.
What we do want is an environment where the people with something to say can say it. That's what draws people to the boards. If you have a wealth of USEFUL information then you will draw tons of people. In order to have that type of environment, you need to separate the wheat from the chaff. I know in days past this occurred by having an environment where you knew you'd get flamed if you posted crap. This created an air of intimidation. I know people think that sounds bad, but, it forced people to fact check and THINK before posting. The reward was a wealth of great information. The downside: huge egos and a lot of vitriol.
I am totally open to a system that achieves the positive without the negatives. Carmachu has drafted a really nice suggestion as to how to implement this.
Perhaps, better yet, a list of "closed topics" akin to the "no Dark Eldar" thread that was up for a long time in the News section (before there actually was DE news again).
Space Marines vs Whatever
Games Workshop ripped off Warcraft/Starcraft/Aliens/Starship Troopers/etc
Who would win in a fight between Whatever (as a discussion, not as an army list compare)
The IPquisition
I'm sure there are more, but please, if you go with this? I beg you - spare the Foam Wars. I live for that drama right there.
Samus_aran115 wrote:
How dare someone make a name that sounds anything like yours???!!
*ahem* Listen whippersnapper, dont make me beat you with my cane. I can guarentee its the other way around. I've been on dakka longer then both of you combined. I should get royalties from him usinga version of my name....
In any case, I wonder if anything will actually come of these threads. We're told that they're generating buzz among the powers that be but sometimes I think that's just to keep us content.
Imho, a little discontent makes things exciting...
I can only speak for the swap shop, but whenever people suggest things in Nuts & Bolts, we discuss it and often tweak things accordingly when there are good ideas.
Honestly, things that take less work tend to get taken up more quickly, though! Things that are a major overhaul or require more work are obviously a bit harder to pick up...
In any case, I wonder if anything will actually come of these threads. We're told that they're generating buzz among the powers that be but sometimes I think that's just to keep us content.
That be true if it were a different type of site. But the owner(s) are gamers too, so they arent going to discuss things just to keep us happy. Thats a short term bump and a long term loss.
Some of the chaff has to go around here. I remember the old old days and things were rough and tumble. I know a few said they wouldnt want steleks or the equvilant, but I recall a time before him and sometimes its people like him thats needed. I dont always agree with what he says, and he might say it rudely at times, but thats infiniately more preferable then some of the things and dicussion we have now. Because whether you like him or not(or folks like it) or whether agree with him or not, more times then not what comes out in the end is useful moreso then not.
asmith wrote:that's not accurate, if you are not being rude chances are someone else is and the thread will be shut down instead of being edited.
That generally just depends on how far gone the thread is. If it's just a comment or two that have gone past the line, but the thread is back on track (or at least looks like it's headed there) the thread will generally be left open, with either the offending post edited or the poster warned.
If people have decided to pile in and it would be too much work to clean it up, then the thread is more likely to be just locked to let everyone go home and rethink their life a little.
Reecius wrote:Let people know that they can argue their point passionately and that is OK!! Don't take things personally, it is just the net for crying out loud.
That goes both ways, though. It's just the net, and just a game of toy soldiers. Is getting heated really necessary? Is it really too much to ask that grown men talk about their toy soldiers without all the wailing and gnashing of teeth when someone has a differing viewpoint?
carmachu wrote:
Some of the chaff has to go around here. I remember the old old days and things were rough and tumble. I know a few said they wouldnt want steleks or the equvilant, but I recall a time before him and sometimes its people like him thats needed. I dont always agree with what he says, and he might say it rudely at times, but thats infiniately more preferable then some of the things and dicussion we have now. Because whether you like him or not(or folks like it) or whether agree with him or not, more times then not what comes out in the end is useful moreso then not.
So, the choice is either Stelek or what we have. I am definitely in the camp that Stelek produced some good stuff but it was a shame he couldn't moderate himself. when I saw the picture of him I was totally surprised to see he was an adult - just goes to show how difficult it is to picture people from posts. Me? Short, slightly over weight/ stocky, bald Englishman
What about the "like" button that others have suggested? For me, especially in the tactics forum, starting where people have expressed most "likes" would be a good place to start.
carmachu wrote:
Some of the chaff has to go around here. I remember the old old days and things were rough and tumble. I know a few said they wouldnt want steleks or the equvilant, but I recall a time before him and sometimes its people like him thats needed. I dont always agree with what he says, and he might say it rudely at times, but thats infiniately more preferable then some of the things and dicussion we have now. Because whether you like him or not(or folks like it) or whether agree with him or not, more times then not what comes out in the end is useful moreso then not.
So, the choice is either Stelek or what we have. I am definitely in the camp that Stelek produced some good stuff but it was a shame he couldn't moderate himself. when I saw the picture of him I was totally surprised to see he was an adult - just goes to show how difficult it is to picture people from posts. Me? Short, slightly over weight/ stocky, bald Englishman
What about the "like" button that others have suggested? For me, especially in the tactics forum, starting where people have expressed most "likes" would be a good place to start.
Your username is more entertaining now : )
I was also in this camp... despite disagreeing with him on some points
loki old fart wrote:There are several threads that continually recur that I'd like to see not recur - "Space Marines vs Starcraft", "Women can't be space marines" etc etc.
Maybe we should have a kiddies section, where people could post these threads. j/k
Maybe they should be stickied, so that people would keep restarting them.
Yeah, that actually makes sense. Have a special board called "retards only". The explanation would be simply :"HURRRR"
So, the choice is either Stelek or what we have. I am definitely in the camp that Stelek produced some good stuff but it was a shame he couldn't moderate himself. when I saw the picture of him I was totally surprised to see he was an adult - just goes to show how difficult it is to picture people from posts. Me? Short, slightly over weight/ stocky, bald Englishman
Given the behavior and posts here on dakka, you could say that about many people, whether their adults or not. I mean the Wolrd Forge post complaint? Are you serious?
So, the choice is either Stelek or what we have. I am definitely in the camp that Stelek produced some good stuff but it was a shame he couldn't moderate himself. when I saw the picture of him I was totally surprised to see he was an adult - just goes to show how difficult it is to picture people from posts. Me? Short, slightly over weight/ stocky, bald Englishman
Given the behavior and posts here on dakka, you could say that about many people, whether their adults or not. I mean the Wolrd Forge post complaint? Are you serious?
Oh god - that one - Ok, you got me, cannot even begin to defend my position if you are going to drag that one up ;-D
That is a good example of poor moderation. How that got past 1 page let alone 2 is beyond me. Got to be one of the crappest threads I have ever seen.
I wonder if part of the issue is that the game has gotten simpler... not ruleswise, but tactics wise.
If there is a balanced metagame, then discussion of that metagame is intreresting. But when the metagame has already been beaten to death and every new idea is met with "space wolves do it better", or some variation of that... well,what else is there to say?
Whenthe game, as a whole, has an easy win mode that renders so many other approaches futile, (or at least sub-optimal) it's hard to get the inspiration to work on a new approach, especially when you know the pundits are just going to call in inviable.
For casual play, who cares, there is no topic there, pick units you like. For competitive play, go mech, go wolves, go guard, or go home... and maybe it's not dakka that went downhill, it's the competitive scene...
As I was pondering Dakka's state of affairs, I'd like to call to attention a particularly troubling matter.
If there's one thing I really hate to see, it's all these ridiculous claims of "poor moderation" Feth! Frazz, Kilkrazy, Alpharius, and all those other mods are some of the best damn mods out there. On sites like 40k Online, whenever a mod posted I'd literally have to edit what I personally thought on a matter because it'd be "offensive" or it'd break a rule. Hell, Frazz is cool enough to descend into the madness of the OT forum and actually let you argue with him! Where else could you do that?
I mean seriously, poor moderation? Some posters are really ungrateful.
Perhaps the problem is the perception that the 'metagame' has been beaten to death. Maybe posting in Tactics and Army Lists would be more interesting if people stopped assuming that there was an easy button and started discussing tactics for beating those supposed 'easy buttons'.
Cryonicleech wrote:As I was pondering Dakka's state of affairs, I'd like to call to attention a particularly troubling matter.
If there's one thing I really hate to see, it's all these ridiculous claims of "poor moderation" Feth! Frazz, Kilkrazy, Alpharius, and all those other mods are some of the best damn mods out there. On sites like 40k Online, whenever a mod posted I'd literally have to edit what I personally thought on a matter because it'd be "offensive" or it'd break a rule. Hell, Frazz is cool enough to descend into the madness of the OT forum and actually let you argue with him! Where else could you do that?
I mean seriously, poor moderation? Some posters are really ungrateful.
+1
I lurk on pft.com for my NFL rumors. Check the comments that are allowed there once.
At least on Dakka, discontent with GW can be vented without being jumped by the mods.
Been watching these threads for awhile, and most of the loudest dissenters are recipients of the MOD attention because they can't self moderate.
Yes there is a lot of crap posts, thats cuz there are a ton more members actively posting, and not all are out of school yet.
If a topic doesn't interest you, than just don't read it.
As for the tactics issue. Write articles. Get your ideas out there. If someone futzes with it, alert the article Mods. simple as simple.
Deadshane made the very valid point several hundred pages back that if a mod catches a small bad thing in a large good post, the whole post gets wiped. This happens time and time again, showing a distinct lack of moderation in the moderating.
So I'd love to see some moderation when it comes to moderating.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Deadshane made the very valid point several hundred pages back that if a mod catches a small bad thing in a large good post, the whole post gets wiped. This happens time and time again, showing a distinct lack of moderation in the moderating.
That isn't normally the case.
Threads are rarely locked until they spiral out of control, unless they are egregious from the outset.
That's why there are other people complaining that the moderators should rule with a firmer smack of control.
I coined the phrase 'Mod-Jerk Reaction' to characterise the quick (and seemingly arbitrary) way a number of threads get closed, and specifically by you, KK.
It only gets worse when you have a thread that has been the cause of a big argument, but that argument was a few pages back, and the thread has since jumped back on track and on topic, and yet the thread gets locked anyway on page 9 when the "impolite" argument was back on page 6 or 7. That's inane and shows any real lack of care of forethought.
As aside, I've been suspended for using the word 'inane' - how's that for "moderating"? And just recently I had a mod tell me that he only deleted my post, and not the highly inflammatory curse-filled original post because he "wasn't paying attention". So, I go back to my original point - moderation in moderating. It's what's needed more than anything.
Rule #1 should be 'Don't be an idiot'. If people weren't idiots, there'd be no reason not to be polite.
Honestly, HBMC, if they are locking pages well after the fact, and missing posts with obvious rules violations adjacent to posts they are wiping out, then it sounds like they need additional eyes on. More mods, with each one doing less to a higher quality.
But it wouldn't work that way in practice, would it?
In any case, I wonder if anything will actually come of these threads. We're told that they're generating buzz among the powers that be but sometimes I think that's just to keep us content.
That be true if it were a different type of site. But the owner(s) are gamers too, so they arent going to discuss things just to keep us happy. Thats a short term bump and a long term loss.
Some of the chaff has to go around here. I remember the old old days and things were rough and tumble. I know a few said they wouldnt want steleks or the equvilant, but I recall a time before him and sometimes its people like him thats needed. I dont always agree with what he says, and he might say it rudely at times, but thats infiniately more preferable then some of the things and dicussion we have now. Because whether you like him or not(or folks like it) or whether agree with him or not, more times then not what comes out in the end is useful moreso then not.
I disagree. I don't think Stelek was useful at all. He drove many many posters off the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote:Deadshane made the very valid point several hundred pages back that if a mod catches a small bad thing in a large good post, the whole post gets wiped. This happens time and time again, showing a distinct lack of moderation in the moderating.
So I'd love to see some moderation when it comes to moderating.
Its a helpful way to keep from banning people who have consisting posted such things. Cough***many othe posters on this thread ***cough.
Don't always think the mods get it right tbh A problem that I see is the lack of consistency.
They must all be soccer referees
But a lot taking a view from the other side, the problems arise from us the users.
Mods aren't machines. If I may make an anaology of the speed cameras in the UK, motorists complain about them and getting caught.
Don't exceed the speed limit. No tickets!
Again people complaing about clamping down on offensive material.
Not referring to the can of worms of political correctness, but why do people feel that there is some right or need to be offensive?
We ought to be moderating ourselves first as a matter of course and out of courtesy to other users.
Deadshane1 wrote:Unfortunatly, I think dakka now caters to these people that refuse to improve in their game. The list/tactics section of dakka (which used to be my favorite long long ago) would be a much more serious place with personalities like Stelek, Mauleed, Gwar, and many others who have offended people over the years given free reign to "lay it down" unfortunatly, people get frustrated. Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.
Considering you started a thread on here not too long ago bitching at Stelek and others for saying mean things about people's armies I find this hilarious. Still, not the first example of blatant hypocrisy from you.
Deadshane1 wrote:I was reading one attendee's list breakdown of opponents this morning on a site, and the peanut gallery that responded to the post had nothing to say about the opponents but things like...."Was he drunk when he made that list?" "Those armies are full of fail" "f&*kinc stupid" ect, you get the idea. How nice.
...and dont even get me started on all the greif leveled at GW for these missions that "Werent thought out in the least.", "totally unfair", or "the most slowed missions I've ever seen, do they even play this game?" (key word there is GAME).
At the risk of sounding like some Casual Gaming Mafioso, these guys have REALLY lost sight of what this game is all about. I'm actually one of the more competetive gamers out there mentally, and even I find myself wincing at these comments I see everywhere. My first reaction is to feel like I want to pit my toughest list on the board and tell these guys to "nut up or shut up", then after a little thought I just shake my head at these "experts".
People SERIOUSLY need to calm down. If someone feilds 10 firedragons in a waveserpent at Ard Boys, that doesnt make him a slow, it simply means that he wanted to use 10 firedragons. Nothing more, nothing less. I suspect that whoever wrote the 3rd mission for Ard Boys knows "just a little" about 40k. He probably actually plays it too. However, some of the people out there that really hate the missions this year would probably tell you otherwise in their infinate wisdom.
Hey guys...GAME...you see, thats the word. Noones life is dependant on the rules for mission three. No families are going to go hungry because so-and-so thinks vanguard vets are the coolest thing ever so "why not bring 3 full squads?" Can we calm down and let people have FUN with the GAME? PLEASE?
Just because I find someone to be an arrogant jerk doesnt mean that he doesnt know the game. Thats not hypocrisy.
Also, if you read that post in it's entirety, if I remember correctly, the main point I was trying to make was that people were complaining about a "Free Tournament" with prize support.
...but I see what you're doing...going off topic and attempting to smear to start an arguement. My hypocrisy or lack thereof is not the subject here. Sorry, not gonna bite. Please drive thru.
Frazzled wrote:
Its a helpful way to keep from banning people who have consisting posted such things. Cough***many othe posters on this thread ***cough.
hypocrite much? 3 or possibly 4 suspensions - hello pot, let me intorduce you to kettle.
Deadshane1 wrote:Just because I find someone to be an arrogant jerk doesnt mean that he doesnt know the game. Thats not hypocrisy. Also, if you read that post in it's entirety, if I remember correctly, the main point I was trying to make was that people were complaining about a "Free Tournament" with prize support. ...but I see what you're doing...going off topic and attempting to smear to start an arguement. My hypocrisy or lack thereof is not the subject here. Sorry, not gonna bite. Please drive thru.
And yet again you fail to address the point entirely. Nothing in your post actually addressed what I pointed out.
You complain that someone says "Those armies are full of fail" - that's horrible and out of line. Yet now you're saying that people should be allowed to say things like "that idea is friggin stupid"?
Why the sudden about face?
Deadshane1 wrote:Now we've got an overmoderated board where saying "that idea is friggin stupid" will get you a warning. Now read that quotation....read it...is it REALLY that bad? You'll get a warning for it.
Deadshane1 wrote:I was reading one attendee's list breakdown of opponents this morning on a site, and the peanut gallery that responded to the post had nothing to say about the opponents but things like...."Was he drunk when he made that list?" "Those armies are full of fail" "f&*kinc stupid" ect, you get the idea. How nice.
It's descending into a lot of cock-waving, mostly from people who always seem to feel 'they know better'.
How depressing. If you don't like how this site is Moderated, then go join a different one, surely?
Looking through your post history (Tomb Stalker Hoax, how to deal with RL bullies, why job hunting sucks, why drugs are produced.....) I see that you don't possess the shared experiences of those of us who try bringing useful content to Dakka. How the moderators moderate is a tangential point to Dakka's downward spiral, brought on by the segue into the fact that they moderate tone and behavior but not content.
The answer isn't the people who care about Dakka to leave Dakka - its for people like you to stop increasing the noise ratio...OR for moderators to moderate content, OR for additional moderators to be formed to start policing out the garbage posts so that relevant content can be read without an extensive search through posts like "Who's Primarch is the best in bed?" "Would Master Chief beat a Space Marine in a fight?" "Wakkawakka, lets fake a release rumor!"
Frazzled wrote:
Its a helpful way to keep from banning people who have consisting posted such things. Cough***many othe posters on this thread ***cough.
hypocrite much? 3 or possibly 4 suspensions - hello pot, let me intorduce you to kettle.
It's descending into a lot of cock-waving, mostly from people who always seem to feel 'they know better'.
How depressing. If you don't like how this site is Moderated, then go join a different one, surely?
Looking through your post history (Tomb Stalker Hoax, how to deal with RL bullies, why job hunting sucks, why drugs are produced.....) I see that you don't possess the shared experiences of those of us who try bringing useful content to Dakka. How the moderators moderate is a tangential point to Dakka's downward spiral, brought on by the segue into the fact that they moderate tone and behavior but not content.
The answer isn't the people who care about Dakka to leave Dakka - its for people like you to stop increasing the noise ratio...OR for moderators to moderate content, OR for additional moderators to be formed to start policing out the garbage posts so that relevant content can be read without an extensive search through posts like "Who's Primarch is the best in bed?" "Would Master Chief beat a Space Marine in a fight?" "Wakkawakka, lets fake a release rumor!"
And yet it seems the majority are quite happy with the Mods as they are.
But we must all bow down and kiss the butts of those who have thousands of posts, because you know, they have thousands of posts, no doubt each and everyone full of pearls of wisdom and nary an ounce of spam/silliness between?
Ack, Dash- your post above is what I personally consider noise, too. This is not an "us" vs "them"... anyone who posts on Dakka is an integral part of the community.
The solution isn't to trash the opposition... but to post better quality stuff (perhaps in a more organized fashion as is being discussed, and I think the ideas have some merit). Tearing down people doesn't help build anything up, and certainly doesn't help the case of those pushing for more reform.
RiTides wrote:Ack, Dash- your post above is what I personally consider noise, too. This is not an "us" vs "them"... anyone who posts on Dakka is an integral part of the community.
The solution isn't to trash the opposition... but to post better quality stuff (perhaps in a more organized fashion as is being discussed, and I think the ideas have some merit). Tearing down people doesn't help build anything up, and certainly doesn't help the case of those pushing for more reform.
Yes, because "All you who don't like the status quo GTFO and leave" is building things up.
And now comes the flame baiting, how superior of you!
All I illustrated is that it's only those who somehow feel they are more important than another that are having a go at the Mod team. I suggested that perhaps other Websites might suit you better. But of course, you'd be a nobody on those sites, and you simply can't have that now can you? So instead you remain here, complaining and nurturing that you're a someone...
Mr Mystery wrote:And now comes the flame baiting, how superior of you!
All I illustrated is that it's only those who somehow feel they are more important than another that are having a go at the Mod team. I suggested that perhaps other Websites might suit you better. But of course, you'd be a nobody on those sites, and you simply can't have that now can you? So instead you remain here, complaining and nurturing that you're a someone...
Nice trolling. +1.
As has been illustrated for you to ignore (and now revisited for your pleasure), the few folks who are in disagreement over the state of moderation are a tangential discussion to the larger S:N ratio on Dakka, and what to do with it.
Mr Mystery wrote:Yes, a discussion where your opinion is the only one that matters, and all voices of dissent are trolling yes?
Not at all. But showing up to a thread with "If you don't like it GTFO" *is* trolling, accusations of cock-waving add to the fuel, and easy dismissal of the work that so many are doing to try improving Dakka is tinder. That's why you get +1 for trolling. You brought nothing useful to the thread, you were inflammatory, and your sole purpose here (as expressed by your posting) is to be divisive.
Except that wasn't what I said, was it? But hey, let's get sensationalist, why the devil not. I mean, you are a somebody on here, your opinion matters. Me, I've barely got here, so what the hell would I know!
No you... NOOOO YOOUUUU... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOOOOUUUUUUUUUU is all i read here atm.
Sorry for silly post, but this seems to be way to filled with emotion to actually be helpfull for any cause.
And if your reading my post (yeah you) ^^ im really needing a little help with Eldar in the Army List thread and i wouldnt mind some sound advice.
Lists: Saddly, our heavy hitters (tourney winners) here on Dakka don't seam to contribute to this thread very often. I don't think allowing posters to be caustic will encourage veteran players to participate in this forum/quite the opposite really.
*WHY* don't the heavy hitters contribute in Army Lists? There was a time when 50% of the posts in Army lists were Ork lists, and the "last posted by" was Dashofpepper. I have....4,000 posts on Dakka? 2,000 of them at least were made in Army lists. This kind of bulls*it is why I don't post there anymore.
If I may quote from the thread you mentioned:
Grimgob wrote:Not so. Your advice tends to lean twards "orks get the charge they krump" you must not play alot of CSM.
Grimgob wrote:It must not be that bad of a list since your post was 1/35th the size of your usual prattle. now back to ur cheese,wine, and crappy metal/rock fussion music.
Grimgob wrote:but you come off as a know it all TFG.
Dashofpepper wrote:*shakes his head in disbelief*
OP, you're going to scoff at my suggestions by calling me names, make fun of my personal hobbies, and tell me that I'm TFG.
Pot, meet kettle. Your list is apparently absolutely phenomenal despite 100% of users thinking it is not, and you needn't post it because you're not open to comments. I would encourage you to revise how you interact with other people; you're being unconscionably rude.
So would it be safe to say that the main reason that you were put off to contributing to army lists was posters (like the one I quoted above) who were rude (flametory), obnoxious, and unappreciative of your advice? Actaully, you just stated exactly that, which was kinda my thinking. Allowing posters (veterans and initiates alike) to use or continue to use inflamatory language isn't going to make these forums a better environment -- especially when you pointed out that that same environment drove you out.
Again, I find nothing wrong with posters telling someone they are wrong, assuming that you back your statement up with facts or logic. Using flamatory language (like stupid, idiotic, TFG, troll, ect) only leads to a flame war. Furthermore, the Mods are not suppose to play favorites. So if they allowed the the veterans leeway to use flamatory language, then they are likely to let the intiates fireback.
Mr Mystery wrote:Except that wasn't what I said, was it? But hey, let's get sensationalist, why the devil not. I mean, you are a somebody on here, your opinion matters. Me, I've barely got here, so what the hell would I know!
Except that it *is* what you said. I'd definitely encourage you to return to off-topic now, or read this thread and contribute something besides accusations against its posters.
:Is DakkaDakka going down hill?
What do you think of the contents?
Just to remind ourselves.
thread title and OP.
iirc a while back there was some really constructive dialogue going on
or was that the other thread I get so easily confused these days.
Page 9 and indeed the thread has degenerated into the usual pattern of everyone shouting above each other in a grim battle to be heard above the noise.
Of course there is an element of seeing who can pee highest Mr M, but if you wade into the urinals with your "cock waving" then what do you expect?
This pattern on thread development is typical and not just on Dakka.
It is annoying when it happens in the Which primarchs' chickens lays the best eggs? poll thread.
If I understand the point of this thread correctly it is trying to address a more serious issue.
When you get into the more technical aspects of the hobby, this pattern of thread development is very detrimental.
It seriously affects the nature and quality of the site as a whole.
It is tedious to have to wade through pages of the personal sniping.
The mods are in a no win situation imho If they stamp down they get accussed of censorship.
If they let things run they get blamed for not dealing with the rubbish.
Again, it is up to us to disagree constructively and not just fan the flames.
So surely the trick is to simply create topics you wish to discuss, and not enter ones which do not interest you?
For instance, I have always found online tactical discussion to be an exercise in futility, as rather than offer constructive comment and criticism on my chosen (and usually purchased) list, I am instead told such a list cannot win, here go and buy this lolzIrtounywinnah! etc. So guess what, I don't seek it online. I might read the odd topic which seems to correlate with a though I'm having, but I see the same thing. Don't take Unit Z, take Unit A and spam.
Reecius wrote:I know in days past this occurred by having an environment where you knew you'd get flamed if you posted crap. This created an air of intimidation. I know people think that sounds bad, but, it forced people to fact check and THINK before posting. The reward was a wealth of great information. The downside: huge egos and a lot of vitriol.
I don't know, when I was ghosting the boards, it seamed like the "trolls" were immune to flamatory statements, infact, it seamed to feed them and make them stronger.
Dashofpepper wrote:Looking through your post history (Tomb Stalker Hoax... blah blah blah)
Wasn't that decided to be not a hoax, and everyone that propagates this lie owes Mr. Mystery a huge apology?
wyomingfox wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:
wyomingfox wrote:
Lists: Saddly, our heavy hitters (tourney winners) here on Dakka don't seam to contribute to this thread very often. I don't think allowing posters to be caustic will encourage veteran players to participate in this forum/quite the opposite really.
*WHY* don't the heavy hitters contribute in Army Lists? There was a time when 50% of the posts in Army lists were Ork lists, and the "last posted by" was Dashofpepper. I have....4,000 posts on Dakka? 2,000 of them at least were made in Army lists. This kind of bulls*it is why I don't post there anymore.
If I may quote from the thread you mentioned:
Grimgob wrote:Not so. Your advice tends to lean twards "orks get the charge they krump" you must not play alot of CSM.
Grimgob wrote:It must not be that bad of a list since your post was 1/35th the size of your usual prattle. now back to ur cheese,wine, and crappy metal/rock fussion music.
Grimgob wrote:but you come off as a know it all TFG.
Dashofpepper wrote:*shakes his head in disbelief*
OP, you're going to scoff at my suggestions by calling me names, make fun of my personal hobbies, and tell me that I'm TFG.
Pot, meet kettle. Your list is apparently absolutely phenomenal despite 100% of users thinking it is not, and you needn't post it because you're not open to comments. I would encourage you to revise how you interact with other people; you're being unconscionably rude.
So would it be safe to say that the main reason that you were put off to contributing to army lists was posters (like the one I quoted above) who were rude (flametory), obnoxious, and unappreciative of your advice? Actaully, you just stated exactly that, which was kinda my thinking. Allowing posters (veterans and initiates alike) to use or continue to use inflamatory language isn't going to make these forums a better environment -- especially when you pointed out that that same environment drove you out.
Again, I find nothing wrong with posters telling someone they are wrong, assuming that you back your statement up with facts or logic. Using flamatory language (like stupid, idiotic, TFG, troll, ect) only leads to a flame war. Furthermore, the Mods are not suppose to play favorites. So if they allowed the the veterans leeway to use flamatory language, then they are likely to let the intiates fireback.
Since someone else brought it up...
I think if you read that entire thread, Dash doesn't come off as the "white hat" that he makes himself out to be.
Honestly Dash, if you really believe you weren't being a little bit rude in that thread I don't know what to say to you. You and Grimgob were both wrong for flaming, but that thread is a classic example of two people behaving badly.
Mr Mystery wrote:So surely the trick is to simply create topics you wish to discuss, and not enter ones which do not interest you?
For instance, I have always found online tactical discussion to be an exercise in futility, as rather than offer constructive comment and criticism on my chosen (and usually purchased) list, I am instead told such a list cannot win, here go and buy this lolzIrtounywinnah! etc. So guess what, I don't seek it online. I might read the odd topic which seems to correlate with a though I'm having, but I see the same thing. Don't take Unit Z, take Unit A and spam.
And here we go full circle.
1. If topics had clear titles, and there was an enforced standard for creating a new topic, then it would be easier to find the topics you wish to discuss. A thread in tactics titled "Plasma guns" is not indicative of its contents. Is the OP having a problem with people toting plasma weapons? Do they want to know what to put plasma weapons onto? Do they want to know the list types that flavor plasma weapons? Are they wondering if plasma is a popular sponson weapon? Do they want to know if plasma guns have a real life equivalent? You have to enter the thread to find out. That's 90% of the posts in Tactics - unclear titles mean that you have to search through threads for something that you want to read about or participate in a discussion about.
2. In terms of creating topics you wish to discuss....obviously someone cares about which primarch is the best in bed. And it has a bunch of pages of responses. This thread, and those like it - are threads that someone cared enough about or was bored enough to post. The PROBLEM is that they don't belong where they are. They should be in your domain, or in a new domain (40k Watercooler) where they won't cause filtering problems for those looking for actual discussions about miniatures, tactics, or the game.
3. Your particular problem with online tactical discussion - I'm not sure where you form this basis from. Dakka has some very proficient posters in both army lists and tactics; the hardest part of getting good advice is getting their attention. You've never posted a thread to either Army Lists *or* to the Tactics forum, so I think its unfair of you to condemn Dakka for a feature you've never used. On the flip side, if you *HAD* created a thread in Army lists or in Tactics asking for advice about a list, or about a theme that you use...and you had gotten a thread full of responses that were garbage (Don't take Unit Z, take Unit A and spam....) then you would be providing supporting documentation for everything we're talking about in this thread - the Signal to Noise ratio, and the need for some control and direction to be attached to the noise.
Making sweeping generalizations about features of Dakka you've no personal experience with, and coming to a thread to make sweeping generalizations about its posters is the kind of sensationalism that you're quick to try labeling on others. Please - relax. Read this thread before posting in it. Don't be desultory or inflammatory. There's no need for any of that here.
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Monster Rain wrote:
Honestly Dash, if you really believe you weren't being a little bit rude in that thread I don't know what to say to you.
Not every moderator alert gets answered, not every flamebait post gets moderated or deleted, and when someone shears through my efforts to help with a slew of personal attacks, I *WILL* defend myself. If you don't know what to say to me, feel free to say nothing at all.
Making sweeping generalizations about features of Dakka you've no personal experience with, and coming to a thread to make sweeping generalizations about its posters is the kind of sensationalism that you're quick to try labeling on others. Please - relax. Read this thread before posting in it. Don't be desultory or inflammatory. There's no need for any of that here.
So you look into a thread, find it not what you thought, and leave. Or perhaps encourage the poster to give it a better title? Simple enough, and that's the community taking responsibility for their community.
My tactical one is indeed a generalisation, and has proven true (to some degree) on all boards I have frequented.
Dashofpepper wrote:Dakka has some very proficient posters in both army lists and tactics; the hardest part of getting good advice is getting their attention.
I think this is really getting to the meat of it. I can PM dash or Polonius or others for advice but the community would be better served by having that same great advice out there to be discussed and considered by everyone. That's what a FORUM is for, as opposed to a blog. A blog is predominantly about one-way communication: story-telling, lecturing, etc. A forum is about dialog: we are here to have conversations and debates. There's room, in a "watercooler" for the sideshow elements. But the main event is wargaming as both a fulfilling hobby and a competitive game, which range of topics deserve the most support.
So surely the key is for the posters who are known to contribute solid ideas and thoughts to create more threads for discussion, sort of sowing the seeds as it were.
No point complaining if you won't step up to the mark.
Mr Mystery wrote:So surely the key is for the posters who are known to contribute solid ideas and thoughts to create more threads for discussion, sort of sowing the seeds as it were.
No point complaining if you won't step up to the mark.
That's not the solution. That's been done. You really should read through the thread.
I'm not seeing how you would mod out the posts though.
topic on plasma cannons. Somene says PCs are cool. Somoen says PCs suck and provides an excel sheet. Somoene says PC's are too expensive and cites orks.
Are you going to delete the first post?
How are you going to quantify what is or isn't a good post?
How are you going to sift through all the posts in the Tactical?
Honestly Dash, if you really believe you weren't being a little bit rude in that thread I don't know what to say to you.
Not every moderator alert gets answered, not every flamebait post gets moderated or deleted, and when someone shears through my efforts to help with a slew of personal attacks, I *WILL* defend myself. If you don't know what to say to me, feel free to say nothing at all.
So be the bigger person. Someone having the last word on the internet isn't exactly the end of the world. Honestly, a little less drama with you at the center would be a lot better for your "internet persona" than constantly being at odds with people.
What's that old saying about catching more flies with honey?
Mr Mystery wrote:So surely the key is for the posters who are known to contribute solid ideas and thoughts to create more threads for discussion, sort of sowing the seeds as it were.
No point complaining if you won't step up to the mark.
That's not the solution. That's been done. You really should read through the thread.
Frazzled wrote:I'm not seeing how you would mod out the posts though.
topic on plasma cannons. Somene says PCs are cool. Somoen says PCs suck and provides an excel sheet. Somoene says PC's are too expensive and cites orks.
Are you going to delete the first post?
How are you going to quantify what is or isn't a good post?
How are you going to sift through all the posts in the Tactical?
I'm presuming you're just screwing with me at this point to get me to repeat myself, so I'll just link where you asked me this earlier.
Frazzled wrote:I'm not seeing how you would mod out the posts though.
topic on plasma cannons. Somene says PCs are cool. Somoen says PCs suck and provides an excel sheet. Somoene says PC's are too expensive and cites orks.
Are you going to delete the first post?
How are you going to quantify what is or isn't a good post?
How are you going to sift through all the posts in the Tactical?
I'm presuming you're just screwing with me at this point to get me to repeat myself, so I'll just link where you asked me this earlier.
Dashofpepper wrote:
I'm presuming you're just screwing with me at this point to get me to repeat myself, so I'll just link where you asked me this earlier.
I presume Frazzled didnt find your previous answer satisfactory, thus insisting on a new answer or altered one.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:It goes up and down for me. If I wasn't the only one contributing gay sex topics to the OT forum I'd be a lot more interested
Oh come on. There's plenty of Dark Eldar discussion! That's not close enough?
Dakka is probably the best moderated forum I frequent imo and long may it stay that way. Just take a trip over to BoxingScene forum to see how much worse things can get wrt fanboys, abuse and all....
Well, the facepalm orkmoticon happened through a few people modifying a current one (I believe it went like this: Kyley posted a thread, Arctik_Firangi posted a still image, SilverMk2 and others attempted messing with it, finally Borkin made one, Gwar! tweaked it, and voila! User-generated facepalm orkmoticon and lego added it to the list .
So if we really do want one, the way to go about it would be to start a Nuts & Bolts thread and get our more talented users inspired to make it a reality! I personally think it should be based off of this one: without the "z" and with a bottle in its place . Not sure if that's still PG enough for the kiddos, but I think it is
@ Mr Mystery- Nice, a WHFB tactics thread! Will add a comment when I get time tonight/tomorrow, as I've seen an interesting trend with horde formations, especially at 'Ard Boyz
Dashofpepper wrote:
I'm presuming you're just screwing with me at this point to get me to repeat myself, so I'll just link where you asked me this earlier.
I presume Frazzled didnt find your previous answer satisfactory, thus insisting on a new answer or altered one.
Cheers
Edit, oh wow there's a real PC thread right now. Mine was hypothetical talking about PC tactics. Sorry, that may have been part of the confusion.
TBone the terrible is doing double facepaw in shame at what his human has done.
Dashofpepper wrote:
I'm presuming you're just screwing with me at this point to get me to repeat myself, so I'll just link where you asked me this earlier.
I presume Frazzled didnt find your previous answer satisfactory, thus insisting on a new answer or altered one.
Cheers
Edit, oh wow there's a real PC thread right now. Mine was hypothetical talking about PC tactics. Sorry, that may have been part of the confusion.
TBone the terrible is doing double facepaw in shame at what his human has done.
Pics or it didn't happen.
You know, when I was new here I didn't get the whole "wiener dog picture" thing. Now I crave them.
wyomingfox wrote:Again, I find nothing wrong with posters telling someone they are wrong, assuming that you back your statement up with facts or logic.
This is a key point. When quotes and/or page references was made compulsory YMDC became a much nicer place for a short time since only the people that could be bothered to check the rules before posting were answering questions. It went back to normal fairly quickly though.
I've gotten to the point where I'll talk to certain people via 
It's bad because I don't even expect halfway decent advice from there anymore.
(opening mouth) and an animated beer bottle 
