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Hellfury wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Hellfury wrote:If you guys are going to do the like/dislike button, I recommend the admins take a look at board game geek to see how well such a thing can be instituted.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Recommended&redirectedfrom=thumbs-up#
In fact, I recommend you copy as much from that site as possible regarding how their site works.

Ultimately though, the like/recommend/whatever button is about as futile as looking at post count to see if a person knows what the hell they are talking about.

Its just a vanity thing at the end of the day.

Not that any of this really matters, since useful contributions here are secondary to cash.

Nope, not ever gonna let dakka live that one down.

What?

BGG is the site that charges people even to have an avatar.

I would agree a Like only button is better than Like/Dislike, however I don't find it any use on BGG. I read threads that interest me, not ones that interest other people. THere is an overlap, of course.

I know youre a member there kilkrazy, but you dont even have the slightest clue how that works.
In your defense I dont blame you because the interface is pants.

What I am talking about is the actual content behind the horrible interface.
You are rewarded for useful contributions to the site. Thats where the geekgold comes in. Sure you can buy it, but thats the lazy pants way to get things done.

Scrubs lie fallow, useful contributors are lauded. Unlike dakka.

Perhaps you might like to explain it in more detail.

Polonius wrote:I know a lot of other forums do have ways to give kudos, or karma, or whatnot to quality posts. That's a way of separating pure posts from quality stuff.

Yeah, kind of. I think if I create something of value, I should at least get recognition.

But you do get recognition, Polonius, that of your fellow posters. I don't think a new title under your name is going to be better than that, or anything?

Those who post useful content get recognized here in the same way as anywhere else. How could it be done differently? I guess I'm just not seeing what's missing here.

And guys, I know griping about Frazz is fun and all, but really- it's been done . Old news and all that...

Frazzled wrote:

Athera wrote:Indifferent. I've lurked on this site for awhile and I've only registered for a few specific reasons. Other than that, I really don't care about this site and stopped reading this thread at about page 3. I'm mildly amused that the thread was locked, but that would have also confirmed everything we already know.

But just to confirm the "outsider view", this site is considered to be 99% trash and only worth any attention at all because it reaches a huge audience.

I'd also point out that the mods are generally the worst of the trolls on this site and there are other sanctioned trolls that get away with stupid crap, flames and trolling and then run to their moderator minions when they get called on it. How many threads were started by Moderators mocking and trolling off of this thread? But don't you dare use a "Spess Mahreens" joke around here without approval, that get s you a stern warning.

And I fully expect a "if you don't like it leave" message.

In Closing,
"Spess Mahreens"

Wait you've been around a month and have this view. I sense sockpuppet or donkey-cave alert.

You don't know what "lurking" means do you?

Frazz - No offence here, but maybe its time to think about posts before hitting submit.
While they may seem fine to you, alot of them do provoke other people.
If i were to do that, i would get hung, drawn and quartered for it (ok, slight exaggeration on my part)

Due to nothing being done, it gives people a negative view of all MOD's, not just yourself.
You guys need to set the examples to follow im afraid, if thats not a possibility, they why step up to the task to begin with?

Also, i respect Alph's posts on here, and i do respect that MOD's have thier own life to deal with, which naturally leaves dakka to follow in spare time.

Athera wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Athera wrote:Indifferent. I've lurked on this site for awhile and I've only registered for a few specific reasons. Other than that, I really don't care about this site and stopped reading this thread at about page 3. I'm mildly amused that the thread was locked, but that would have also confirmed everything we already know.

But just to confirm the "outsider view", this site is considered to be 99% trash and only worth any attention at all because it reaches a huge audience.

I'd also point out that the mods are generally the worst of the trolls on this site and there are other sanctioned trolls that get away with stupid crap, flames and trolling and then run to their moderator minions when they get called on it. How many threads were started by Moderators mocking and trolling off of this thread? But don't you dare use a "Spess Mahreens" joke around here without approval, that get s you a stern warning.

And I fully expect a "if you don't like it leave" message.

In Closing,
"Spess Mahreens"

Wait you've been around a month and have this view. I sense sockpuppet or donkey-cave alert.

You don't know what "lurking" means do you?

You don't know what "useful poster" means, do you?

Pretty much all I've seen from you is whining or disagreeing just to be disagreeable.

I've been on forums with "Karma". It's little more than a popularity contest and has nothing to do with how helpful or ontopic someone's posts are. <---- Spoken by someone that had a lot of Karma on one of those forums. Scary, huh?

Karma's a problem, simply because it's if someone agrees with you or not.

It doesn't matter if your post was a crummy post, littered with inside jokes that nobody outside of your clique gets...if someone agrees with it, or just makes a habit of agreeing with you it defeats the whole purpose of the system.

Is it really the kiss of death to disagree with Frazzled?

There's some posters in OT that really give him the business and haven't been black-bagged yet. Just throwing that out there.

Polonius, in case you think that was a slight toward you, it wasn't. I like your posts!

Kilkrazy wrote:

Hellfury wrote:

Scrubs lie fallow, useful contributors are lauded. Unlike dakka.

Perhaps you might like to explain it in more detail.

I edited my last post to include it but I will repeat it here again.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/GeekGold

Monster Rain wrote:Is it really the kiss of death to disagree with Frazzled?

There's some posters in OT that really give him the business and haven't been black-bagged yet. Just throwing that out there.

Polonius, in case you think that was a slight toward you, it wasn't. I like your posts!

Well I keep pushing the Big Red Button but nothing ever happens.

I was aware of that list, however a lot of the stuff on it is irrelevant to DakkaDakka.

If you wanted to design a similar system tailored to this site, what would you include?

Polonius wrote: what DoP, Reecius, Nurglitch and I have discovered is that even when you do write quality posts, you don't really get any benefit. I work the 5th ed IG codex review, which took hours, and it's not like I got anything for it.

Have a cookie?

Seriously, what did you expect? Was there some implied or expressed promise of reward that we all missed?

You do these things for the satisfaction of doing them.

Kilkrazy wrote:I was aware of that list, however a lot of the stuff on it is irrelevant to DakkaDakka.

If you wanted to design a similar system tailored to this site, what would you include?

Nope. Not my yob.

Been there done that. Not spending the time to go through that again only for a Mod to proclaim that the only real contribution to this site is cash and for me to tell him where to stick it then all the mods line up to have their little chip thrown in the pot because "one of theirs" was somehow wronged.

Thats about all the help from me you're going to get on that one. You got a large contingent of self satisfied mods, you guys figure it out.

Its as relevant as you want it to be, and since it has been deemed largely irrelevant, I guess there is no need to bother right?

I'm a relatively new user, but even in my short stay here I've seen a lot of changes in dakka.

I read everything(yes, read everything) in this thread before my post. I agree with a lot of what's been said about what's happened to the tactics forum, and I agree that something should be done about it.

On the forum as a whole, I think an anonymous "like" button is the way to go, and I particularly like the system legoburner laid down (with each vote having a weight). But a "dislike" button would turn dike into several small, polarized groups if it wasn't anonymous. But even if it was or could be, I'd still stay away from "dislike" buttons, lest the witch hunts start.

I like the system whatwhat suggested as well, but I think it'd be logistically easier and almost as effective to go the "like" button route.

I also think there should be a tactics "mod" or "mod team". I think it should be an actual moderator, but that they could only have power within the tactics forum. This would allow them to be recognized by the rest of users by someone who has some real power and authority, and would allow them to lock offending threads themselves. I understand the argument for them not being, but as stated earlier a definitive goal would help the new mod(s) get off to a good start. And I agree with most of what people have been saying about what their responsibilities should entail.

Polonius: By the way, loved reading your IG review.

There is an ignore button, you know. Sadly, I have about 16 people on that list, and have only be on the site about a month, which I guess shows how downhill this site has become.

Dakka is similar from many other forums: it starts out very tough on idiocy, then get more members, grows soft, and begins to get many juvenile, 10-13 year old testosterone ridden "fan-kids" squealing about their "KUSTOMS!!1!". By that time, the site is screwed unless it starts banning idiots left and right. The alternative is that the sites senior members turn into jerks, and scare people off. Trust me, I have seen both of these scenarios happen before.

Mu suggestion is that you make the poll option only available to members of the site that have a good track record. I also think the great mods here should crack down on inappropriate/risque/raunchy profile pictures, they really spoil the site for me, as a lot of the members with such avatars are really good, informative, posters, but have to go on my "Ignore" list anyways.


_Tim?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Polonius wrote: what DoP, Reecius, Nurglitch and I have discovered is that even when you do write quality posts, you don't really get any benefit. I work the 5th ed IG codex review, which took hours, and it's not like I got anything for it.

Have a cookie?

Seriously, what did you expect? Was there some implied or expressed promise of reward that we all missed?

You do these things for the satisfaction of doing them.

I think that there are ways the staff could show appreciation to quality posters that don't cost money that would help. Giving awards for good articles. Simply linking to good articles and encouraging others to do so. Hell, even a Pm from the staff saying they liked it would be nice.

I'm sure people liked it, but I'm secure enough in my insecurities to wish that there was a way to become a "name" poster without constant drama.

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: I also think the great mods here should crack down on inappropriate/risque/raunchy profile pictures, they really spoil the site for me, as a lot of the members with such avatars are really good, informative, posters, but have to go on my "Ignore" list anyways.

You can turn off the avatar pics in your profile, if those are the images you mean.

Manchu, I would offer to help with the orginization of the Tactics forum,( of course I tend to just try to not lose than use actual tactics). Let me see what kind of time I can free up... I work nights, so me even being awake at this hour is a rarity most days.

JohnHwangDD:

If I just wanted the satisfaction of writing about Warhammer 40k, I'd spend more time on my blog. But forums like Dakka Dakka provide an opportunity to talk with people outside of my immediate circle of friends and gaming buddies, where I can encounter people with differing opinions than my own, and sometimes even have a discussion with them to resolve those differences.

Throw my vote in against any kind of user based rating system. Web forums tend to foster popularity contests as it is, something that allows users to raise the rank of other users will make it all the worse.

There are far too many people who like to ride on senior/popular forum members (on all sites), its best not to encourage them.

I graduated high school 15 years ago, not eager to go back.

Please don't make the DakkaDrama go away. Without that, this place would used be another Bolter and Chainsword/Warseer I go to for critique. I paid money because of how much of a soap opera Dakka Dakka is.

Though, this thread has been quite dramatic in itself. I posted this after finishing page 2, so I'll defiantly be reading the rest. It looks super exciting.

helgrenze wrote:Manchu, I would offer to help with the orginization of the Tactics forum,( of course I tend to just try to not lose than use actual tactics). Let me see what kind of time I can free up... I work nights, so me even being awake at this hour is a rarity most days.

Thanks, I will PM you either tonight or in the next few days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:If I just wanted the satisfaction of writing about Warhammer 40k, I'd spend more time on my blog. But forums like Dakka Dakka provide an opportunity to talk with people outside of my immediate circle of friends and gaming buddies, where I can encounter people with differing opinions than my own, and sometimes even have a discussion with them to resolve those differences.

THIS THIS THIS. I would like to see this inscribed on a brass plaque and hung on the front page. Dakka is for interaction and community. That has to be the goal that we're aiming at/trying to achieve/falling away from in discussing whether Dakka is more or less worthwhile.

Polonius wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Polonius wrote: what DoP, Reecius, Nurglitch and I have discovered is that even when you do write quality posts, you don't really get any benefit. I work the 5th ed IG codex review, which took hours, and it's not like I got anything for it.

Have a cookie?

Seriously, what did you expect? Was there some implied or expressed promise of reward that we all missed?

You do these things for the satisfaction of doing them.

I think that there are ways the staff could show appreciation to quality posters that don't cost money that would help. Giving awards for good articles. Simply linking to good articles and encouraging others to do so. Hell, even a Pm from the staff saying they liked it would be nice.

I'm sure people liked it, but I'm secure enough in my insecurities to wish that there was a way to become a "name" poster without constant drama.

I think it was a very good article. Not perfect, and not how I'd have done it, but still very good. I'm also sure others link to it and refer as needed.

Also, I think you're a "name" poster, whether you acknowledge it or not.
____

Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:

If I just wanted the satisfaction of writing about Warhammer 40k, I'd spend more time on my blog. But forums like Dakka Dakka provide an opportunity to talk with people outside of my immediate circle of friends and gaming buddies, where I can encounter people with differing opinions than my own, and sometimes even have a discussion with them to resolve those differences.

OK, that works.

Frankly, a lot of dakkas issues are inherent to the hobby, but others are simply how this place is organized. The hobby, overall, is slow-moving. There isn't a ton to report or discuss on a weekly basis, much less daily or hourly, so it devolves into crap. Partner that with one of the worst search functions I've ever seen, and you see repeated crap. Organizationally, the forums are very broad categories (Tactics, Army Lists, etc.) that make it more challenging to find information, so you see lots of random and repeated posts.

Without radically restructuring and improving functionality, I don't really see it changing or improving. This thread by itself also illustrates a problem... is anyone going to really read 10+ pages (as of this post) on this topic?

I get what you're suggesting, Dash, but it sorta is what it is unless peeps take a long look at the overall structure and revise it drastically. Frankly, it's just a message board at the end of the day and not worth the moderator's time to revamp it.

Frazzled wrote:I have to stop bfore more coffee goes out nose....Newb!

Would this thread be permitted in Tactics under the DoP?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317162.page
Who would be permitted to post? What could they post?

Same to same for this one:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318382.page
Who would be permitted to post? What could they post?

Have you and Monster Rain not read this thread?

My suggestion isn't to decide what is or isn't sound tactical advice, and I've explicitly addressed this very point that neither of you have read (or are explicitly ignoring). Rather, here's what tactics (and possibly other sections of the forum need.


1. Someone to write a sticky outlining how to post in the forum, and in what form.
2. Someone ENFORCING those standards, such that a viewer can readily see what a given thread is about by the title.
3. Someone INDEXING all of the common tactical discussions taking place so that others can later benefit from the discussions already having taken place.

Frazzled, in a DoP moderated tactics board, your first thread would get nothing from me. Its a unique situation, not often repeated and would simply be discussed, answered and in time it would sink out of attention.

Frazzled, in a DoP moderated tactics board, your second thread would get indexed under ORKS, possibly with the tags, "Most competitive, Ork competitive." More likely though, this discussion has probably been hashed to death already? If possible, I would merge the two threads, PM the OP with the link to the merged thread, and tag THAT thread as the one that goes into the index.

Its not about moderating what is or isn't allowed to be posted, or what is or isn't sound tactical advice - that's for posters to decide as they explore each thread and post in them. Rather, its about directing traffic and making everyone use the same traffic signals. I'd volunteer to do that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:I still don't think we should let the idea of non-mod volunteer work slip away (I mean, look at Malfred's contributions!) without more discussion. I'm really up for getting a team together to organize the tactics threads. I don't think the first step needs to be appointing new mods.

(1) Would anyone else be interested in this? Again, I am specifically asking DashofPepper since we seem to have arrived at the same potential solution here.

(2) If we can do that, would mods be willing to bring down the thread locks on people who post duplicate threads?

I'm seeing this thread veer away from practical suggestions that could actually be accomplished (with hard work) toward an unresolvable argument. Could this be the real problem?

Two phrases come to mind.

1. If you want it done right, do it yourself.

2. Authority without power is meaningless and empty. If you are granted authority over something without the means to enforce or uphold your authority, you have none in the first place. It reminds me being a West Point cadet....where cadets are assigned "authority" over their peers and are responsible for their actions, but have no authority to either reward or discipline their peers - it makes the position of authority a sham. In terms of "organizing the tactics section" I've made my suggestions for how it should be done. Would I be part of a team that takes notes of threads, or makes suggestions for indexing, and reports all of those things to someone else so that they can decide to do it or not? Absolutely not. Either make me capable of doing what needs to be done or do it yourself.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I have to stop bfore more coffee goes out nose....Newb!

Would this thread be permitted in Tactics under the DoP?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317162.page
Who would be permitted to post? What could they post?

Same to same for this one:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318382.page
Who would be permitted to post? What could they post?

Have you and Monster Rain not read this thread?

My suggestion isn't to decide what is or isn't sound tactical advice, and I've explicitly addressed this very point that neither of you have read (or are explicitly ignoring). Rather, here's what tactics (and possibly other sections of the forum need.


1. Someone to write a sticky outlining how to post in the forum, and in what form.
2. Someone ENFORCING those standards, such that a viewer can readily see what a given thread is about by the title.
3. Someone INDEXING all of the common tactical discussions taking place so that others can later benefit from the discussions already having taken place.

I have read the thread.

I think, and this is a total shoot, that all of those things would be corrected by a tweak to the Search Function which apparently Legoburner is already working on.

Stickies are a good idea, if people read them. Could the Tactics forum use a little more direction? Sure it could, and Manchu has some brilliant proposals for how this could be done. What you need to accept is that there's going to be new players and young gamers that don't automatically know how to be a contributing member of an online community. Over-moderating and hassling them will cause stagnation, not growth, and that is never good for a community, online or otherwise.

Duplicate threads tend to get locked pretty quickly when reported from what I've seen, and even the search function won't fully prevent this since threadomancy is also frowned upon. Just accept that new people will have growing pains when finding their place in an online-community and I think you'll find that things aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

Dashofpepper wrote:2. Authority without power is meaningless and empty. If you are granted authority over something without the means to enforce or uphold your authority, you have none in the first place. It reminds me being a West Point cadet....where cadets are assigned "authority" over their peers and are responsible for their actions, but have no authority to either reward or discipline their peers - it makes the position of authority a sham.

Funny, the way I understand Leadership is that by exhibiting the qualities of Leadership you inspire a following on your own merit without having to resort to threats and bribes.

Enforcement is key though - Killkrazy (and others?) have pointed out that their stickies are ignored.

It would take a bunch of threads getting this message, "Greetings OP! Welcome to the Tactics forum. Please see the stickied thread at the top of the page. If you did a quick search through it, you would have seen that this thread is already under discussion here <link>. Please reference the Tactics Index before creating duplicate threads in the future.

*lock*

Bingo, they just learned to use the Tactics Index. 25 people click on the thread to see why it was locked and see that they should use the tactics index as well - and they will use it before creating new threads in the future too, realizing that duplicate threads will get locked.

Every time someone posts a thread with a one or two word title that doesn't follow naming conventions for threads in the tactics section, it gets a message, "Greetings OP! Welcome to the Tactics forum. Please see the stickied thread at the top of the page. It outlines the format that you should use to frame questions or articles so that other Dakka members can find your content. Please comply within the next 24 hours, or I will change it for you."

And sooner than you think, traffic is cleaner.

Tactics isn't the only place that needs help. The army list section needs help, so does General Discussion. Signal to Noise there is out of control.

Do you need a new Mod for that though?

If the staff signs off on Manchu's proposed standards, and we report the threads that violate them, surely they could lock the thread and no one would lose any limbs.

Monster Rain wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:2. Authority without power is meaningless and empty. If you are granted authority over something without the means to enforce or uphold your authority, you have none in the first place. It reminds me being a West Point cadet....where cadets are assigned "authority" over their peers and are responsible for their actions, but have no authority to either reward or discipline their peers - it makes the position of authority a sham.

Funny, the way I understand Leadership is that by exhibiting the qualities of Leadership you inspire a following on your own merit without having to resort to threats and bribes.

That is a true statement. However, leadership without authority will never be effective. That is also a true statement. Total compliance without authority is impossible without mass hypnosis. I shouldn't have to give examples or perspective on those statements, so I'll leave it there.