shrike wrote:but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

Because not every enemy is a psyker or a deamon? it's only S10 versus two type enemy types.

ph34r wrote:

Alpharius wrote:And really, since everything is going to be properly modeled, WYSIWYG at all, the only objection Pyriel- has is... the color of the marines?

At this point, even he would have to admit to being more than a little 'unreasonable'...

You're being intentionally obtuse. Pyriel has a legitimate point that Alpha Legionnaires, as hard core as you want to believe they are, are not properly represented as all having storm bolters, force weapons, and anti-psyker armor. Just because there are marines and there are humans does not mean "hey this is perfect for my AL army and there are no flaws in my plan!" Honestly basic space marines of any codex, with scouts, would probably be closer to correct than super-duper-amazing space marines and guardsmen.

Be nice.

He's not being obtuse. That's the whole point of 'Counts As'. What if he uses GK minis and calls them Alpha Knights? Is it okay then? When is it okay for him to play with his toy soldiers, in a manner approved by GW with 'Counts As', in the way he wants?

Vhalyar wrote:

shrike wrote:but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

Because not every enemy is a psyker or a deamon? it's only S10 versus two type enemy types.

Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

Monsternator spam seems to be the 'no brainer' build based on the rumors.

Didn't early rumours say he has 4 arms?

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

From what I've read the guns are as well as his close combat weapons.

Personally, I'm skipping over what Pyriel says...

Leggy wrote:On the face of it, all the cool toys seem far too undercosted. Do people think this could be a synergy thing? ie the fancy stuff is cheap, because the scoring units are so expensive you'll have very few. Or has everyone agreed the cheapness is bad codex writing, designed to sell the new army?

I'm wondering that. Then again, there's also the questionable accuracy of these rumours considering we're 2 months away from release?

Gibbsey wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:

shrike wrote:but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

Because not every enemy is a psyker or a deamon? it's only S10 versus two type enemy types.

Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

Hammerhand would only make him Str 6 against non-Psy, non-Daem.

ph34r wrote:

Alpharius wrote:And really, since everything is going to be properly modeled, WYSIWYG at all, the only objection Pyriel- has is... the color of the marines?

At this point, even he would have to admit to being more than a little 'unreasonable'...

You're being intentionally obtuse. Pyriel has a legitimate point that Alpha Legionnaires, as hard core as you want to believe they are, are not properly represented as all having storm bolters, force weapons, and anti-psyker armor. Just because there are marines and there are humans does not mean "hey this is perfect for my AL army and there are no flaws in my plan!" Honestly basic space marines of any codex, with scouts, would probably be closer to correct than super-duper-amazing space marines and guardsmen.

No he's not.....it may not be acceptable to you, but if reasonably put-together, I really don't see how it can be such a big deal.

Why can't they have storm-bolters....? There's been some mention of them 'impersonating' other imperial marine units before, so why not? Captured equipment...?
Why can't they have force weapons...? What, they can't have any warp-based/blessed weaponry from the Architect of Fate (Tzeentch) or for some strange reason they're purists that have no psykers in their midst?

Now who's being obtuse....?

It's Chaos....and what's to say that the Dark Mechanicus with the blessing of Tzeentch or whatever Dark-God, doesn't grant them some very arcane weaponry that seems to 'mimic' GK gear....?

Again, like he mentioned before (Alpharius), if modeled appropriately to where there isn't any question of what-is-what on the table...does it really matter? You're still facing a Grey Knight army in rules-terms, so to me the only sticking point would be how it was modeled to avoid any confusion, otherwise, it's a non-issue.

UltraPrime wrote:

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

Monsternator spam seems to be the 'no brainer' build based on the rumors.

Didn't early rumours say he has 4 arms?

If I recal correctly, no.

pretre wrote:Be nice.

He's not being obtuse. That's the whole point of 'Counts As'. What if he uses GK minis and calls them Alpha Knights? Is it okay then? When is it okay for him to play with his toy soldiers, in a manner approved by GW with 'Counts As', in the way he wants?

I think his point was that he shouldn't complain as much about his "count-as" army being invalidated since he already had to take significant liberties with the concept to make them work in the first place. That since this codex was never meant to represent what he's been using it to represent, he should complain (as much) when it moves further away from that vague intersection of overlapping concepts. If he, like HBMC, were fielding an actual inquisitorial army he'd have more grounds to complain about the refocusing from Inquisition to GKs.

Gibbsey wrote:Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

Draigo is S5 base but becomes S10 only when fighting Psykers and Daemons. How is this so hard to understand?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

From what I've read the guns are as well as his close combat weapons.

I just hope that GW won't screw up the model.
It has amazing stats and it seems like it'll be big enough to be the centerpiece of an army. Now it just needs to look the part.

bhsman wrote:Draigo is S5 base but becomes S10 only when fighting Psykers and Daemons. How is this so hard to understand?

I'm going to venture a guess and say that he thinks that Hammerhand sets Draigo's S to 10. HH is now +S1 to the whole unit.

aka_mythos wrote: I think his point was that he shouldn't complain as much about his "count-as" army being invalidated since he already had to take significant liberties with the concept to make them work in the first place. That since this codex was never meant to represent what he's been using it to represent, he should complain (as much) when it moves further away from that vague intersection of overlapping concepts. If he, like HBMC, were fielding an actual inquisitorial army he'd have more grounds to complain about the refocusing from Inquisition to GKs.

I think you got confused at some point. I don't think I saw Alpharius complain once. He was enthusiastic about the possibilities for an army using Counts As and the new rules.

Some folks got all up in his business for daring to defile the, as yet unpublished, GK codex with Alpha Legion models and concepts instead of the official models and army.

And try not to get H.B.M.C riled up. I think he just calmed down.

How is this thread 13 pages long already lol, dind't the last gk thread just get shut down like 2 days ago???

bhsman wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

Draigo is S5 base but becomes S10 only when fighting Psykers and Daemons. How is this so hard to understand?

well i was replying to

shrike wrote:but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

If his normal strength is just 5 then why not point that out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorTom11 wrote:How is this thread 13 pages long already lol, dind't the last gk thread just get shut down like 2 days ago???

Well this one has some rumours

MajorTom11 wrote:How is this thread 13 pages long already lol, dind't the last gk thread just get shut down like 2 days ago???

Lots of new info and a near-constant stream of it.

Gibbsey wrote:If his normal strength is just 5 then why not point that out?

But Vhaylar posted the stats in the first place.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

sourclams wrote:Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

From what I've read the guns are as well as his close combat weapons.

Is that from rumors or from your 'super duper secret codex knowledge'?

Rumors had a GK Term in what was basically a walker exosuit from Alien or Avatar (2 arms). If he's actually in a Deff Dread (4 arms) for sub-175 with those stats and that weapon loadout, then just wow.

I'm not saying it's unpossibleh, but this could be the most generic, net-listed codex released if it's got one amazing HQ standout, one amazing troop standout (thanks to HQ), one amazing Heavy standout, and an Elite standout (Vindicaire) that compensates for all of the weaknesses of the other choices.

Hmm...since the Inquisitorial role has been toned done...I need to find some new ways to pad it out. I might have to make some special rules for my HQ Coteaz 'counts as' to widen the options a bit. Also going to build myself an Ordos Xenos army now too.

Which begs a question. Do you think people would play with a customised SC that allows the fielding of a Leman Russ or a Predator? If people generally do; I can build an interesting Deathwatch force and a more varied Inquisitorial force.

sourclams wrote:Is that from rumors or from your 'super duper secret codex knowledge'?

Rumors had a GK Term in what was basically a walker exosuit from Alien or Avatar (2 arms). If he's actually in a Deff Dread (4 arms) for sub-175 with those stats and that weapon loadout, then just wow.

I'm not saying it's unpossibleh, but this could be the most generic, net-listed codex released if it's got one amazing HQ standout, one amazing troop standout (thanks to HQ), one amazing Heavy standout, and an Elite standout (Vindicaire) that compensates for all of the weaknesses of the other choices.

He never said there were four arms, I think his intent was to say that the weapons are built into the DCCW.

As for the codex, you of all people (IIRC and if I'm wrong then I apologize) complained about Battle Missions, of all things. Maybe you should wait before making such proclamations, in either case.

bhsman wrote:He never said there were four arms, I think his intent was to say that the weapons are built into the DCCW.

Pretty much. It's not like the concept of bayonets is alien (ho ho ho) to Warhammer anyway.

sourclams wrote:Is that from rumors or from your 'super duper secret codex knowledge'?

My own 'super duper secret codex knoweldge'.

Sadly that same super secret knowledge has not provided me with a picture of the Dreadknight...

Anyone know the price and format? Will it be $40-50 HC like the new Orc book?

if its $40-50 I'd expect a significant amount of art and fluff.

ThirdUltra wrote:No he's not.....it may not be acceptable to you, but if reasonably put-together, I really don't see how it can be such a big deal.

Why can't they have storm-bolters....? There's been some mention of them 'impersonating' other imperial marine units before, so why not? Captured equipment...?
Why can't they have force weapons...? What, they can't have any warp-based/blessed weaponry from the Architect of Fate (Tzeentch) or for some strange reason they're purists that have no psykers in their midst?

Now who's being obtuse....?

It's Chaos....and what's to say that the Dark Mechanicus with the blessing of Tzeentch or whatever Dark-God, doesn't grant them some very arcane weaponry that seems to 'mimic' GK gear....?

Again, like he mentioned before (Alpharius), if modeled appropriately to where there isn't any question of what-is-what on the table...does it really matter? You're still facing a Grey Knight army in rules-terms, so to me the only sticking point would be how it was modeled to avoid any confusion, otherwise, it's a non-issue.

The issue is that he thinks this is the best fluff justification. According to fluff, it is not. Sure, the Alpha Legion COULD all have storm bolters for some convoluted reason, and COULD have force weapons for another reason, and COULD have anti-psyker armor. But hey, guess what. There's nothing about that in the fluff at all. Sure, you can pull some fluff out of your ass, but if you think this is the best fit for the actual Alpha Legion fluff, you're nuts.

Also nice point with the 'impersonating' point, yeah alpha legion would totally try to impersonate marines by taking a weapons loadout that 99.9% of marine chapters do not have. Brilliant way to undermine your position there.

So if Drago and Paladin rumors are correct...

HQ:

Drago - 275pts

Troops:

7 Panadins + Apothecary - 460pts

7 Panadins + Apothecary - 460pts

Then Either:

3 x Vindicare - 435pts

1 x HQ choice (go with other paladin choice if not something else) 120pts

Total: 21 models

Or:

2 x DreadKnigt with teleporter - 420pts
1 x HQ choice (go with other paladin choice if not something else) 135pts

Total: 20 models

Looks like a very easy army to get into given the small model count.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Anyone know the price and format? Will it be $40-50 HC like the new Orc book?

If it's that expensive I'm definitely not getting it. I can swallow $20-$30 for a codex I'm interested in, but even $30 is stretching it. $40-$50 is right out.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Anyone know the price and format? Will it be $40-50 HC like the new Orc book?

If it's that expensive I'm definitely not getting it. I can swallow $20-$30 for a codex I'm interested in, but even $30 is stretching it. $40-$50 is right out.

Even if it allows you to bludgeon foul heretics?

ph34r wrote:

ThirdUltra wrote:No he's not.....it may not be acceptable to you, but if reasonably put-together, I really don't see how it can be such a big deal.

Why can't they have storm-bolters....? There's been some mention of them 'impersonating' other imperial marine units before, so why not? Captured equipment...?
Why can't they have force weapons...? What, they can't have any warp-based/blessed weaponry from the Architect of Fate (Tzeentch) or for some strange reason they're purists that have no psykers in their midst?

Now who's being obtuse....?

It's Chaos....and what's to say that the Dark Mechanicus with the blessing of Tzeentch or whatever Dark-God, doesn't grant them some very arcane weaponry that seems to 'mimic' GK gear....?

Again, like he mentioned before (Alpharius), if modeled appropriately to where there isn't any question of what-is-what on the table...does it really matter? You're still facing a Grey Knight army in rules-terms, so to me the only sticking point would be how it was modeled to avoid any confusion, otherwise, it's a non-issue.

The issue is that he thinks this is the best fluff justification. According to fluff, it is not. Sure, the Alpha Legion COULD all have storm bolters for some convoluted reason, and COULD have force weapons for another reason, and COULD have anti-psyker armor. But hey, guess what. There's nothing about that in the fluff at all. Sure, you can pull some fluff out of your ass, but if you think this is the best fit for the actual Alpha Legion fluff, you're nuts.

Also nice point with the 'impersonating' point, yeah alpha legion would totally try to impersonate marines by taking a weapons loadout that 99.9% of marine chapters do not have. Brilliant way to undermine your position there.

I'm not speaking on any Alpha Legions players (our or lord Alphy's) behalf, however, here is why using the GK codex for Alpha Legionnaires makes sense. At least more sense than any other Codex:

Most importantly - It allows a good mix of Astartes (GK) and non-astartes (Henchmen, Inquisitors, Stormies etc.)

The comparable power of the Grey Knights, compared to that of a bog-standard Henchman would be more in line with the BACKGROUND COMPARABLE ABILITY OF AN ASTARTES> NORMAL HUMAN.
This is the key bit that people (OK, 2 people) seem to be struggling to understand. It's not that Alpha Legionnaires are any tougher than normal Space Marines (although they are technically more experienced), it's that normal MeQ stats don't match up to a Space Marines ability in the fluff.
In the background, Terminators are nigh on invulnerable, Space Marines can loose limbs and fight on, Space Marines can spit acid and all kinds of other super-human abilities that are represented in the background. Its often stated in the background that a single Space Marine is comparable to 100's of Orks or Guardsmen.
Yet, in game, they're barely comparable to two or three.

In true fluff to stats, Space Marines would have much much better stats than they do at the moment. Ask almost any veteran; Space Marines fluff does not fit in with their in game ability.

Hence, the normal ability of a Grey Knight is more similar to that of how powerful a Space Marine is supposed to be. Its not that Alpha Legionnaires all have force weapons and storm bolters, it's that a Boltgun is supposed to fire what are effectively rockets and Space Marines are a lot more powerful in CC than Str4.

Basically, in this case, a Grey Knight is a better representation of what ANY Space Marine (not just Alpha Legionnaire) is like in the background.


Furthermore, if Grey Knights have improved abilities in terms of manoeuvrability, such as mass-deepstriking or relocation, then this better suits the Guerilla tactics used by Alpha Legionnaires.


So what does an Alpha Legion player gain by using the Grey Knight Codex?
- A mix of Marines and Humans - as per fluff.
- Ability to use what is akin to Guerilla warfare - as per fluff.
- Space Marines more similar to how they should be in game - as per fluff.
- What other Codex are they supposed to use?!


It makes sense. Ultimately, it's not perfect. However, ultimately, Grey Knights will likely struggle against Mechanised (the Meta) and ultimately, you won't be playing against them.

If you guys want to continue to dispute counts as fluff wise you could create another thread.... before this one gets locked preferably as we have has some decent rumors...

Just Dave summed it up nicely... thanks!

Also, I think the current rumor is super expensive and nifty looking Army Books are just that - WFB only... for now!

So, 40K Codices will be continuing as is... for now!

Alpharius wrote:Also, I think the current rumor is super expensive and nifty looking Army Books are just that - WFB only... for now!

So, 40K Codices will be continuing as is... for now!

Honestly if they could put it enough content/ fluff to justify a hardcover i wouldent be too opposed, but it would limit people from buying multiple codexes

Gibbsey wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Also, I think the current rumor is super expensive and nifty looking Army Books are just that - WFB only... for now!

So, 40K Codices will be continuing as is... for now!

Honestly if they could put it enough content/ fluff to justify a hardcover i wouldent be too opposed, but it would limit people from buying multiple codexes

It's bound to happen for 6th Ed.

UltraPrime wrote:

Gibbsey wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Also, I think the current rumor is super expensive and nifty looking Army Books are just that - WFB only... for now!

So, 40K Codices will be continuing as is... for now!

Honestly if they could put it enough content/ fluff to justify a hardcover i wouldent be too opposed, but it would limit people from buying multiple codexes

It's bound to happen for 6th Ed.

Rulebook? or codexes? because rulebook definatly (cmon mini rulebook in starter set)

All I'll say about the Alpha Legion is this: The best codex to represent them would be an Alpha Legion codex. Failing that...

bhsman wrote:All I'll say about the Alpha Legion is this: The best codex to represent them would be an Alpha Legion codex. Failing that...

"Failing that", you've got the Tyrant's Legion and the Vraksian Renegade lists.

Legion is better for a more "Astartes" heavy Alpha Legion, while Renegade is better for their 'operatives'.

Or you can comp out entirely on it and use D-99 for Alpha Legion Operators outside of Power Armour.

Just Dave wrote:Furthermore, if Grey Knights have improved abilities in terms of manoeuvrability, such as mass-deepstriking or relocation, then this better suits the Guerilla tactics used by Alpha Legionnaires.


So what does an Alpha Legion player gain by using the Grey Knight Codex?
- A mix of Marines and Humans - as per fluff.
- Ability to use what is akin to Guerilla warfare - as per fluff.
- Space Marines more similar to how they should be in game - as per fluff.
- What other Codex are they supposed to use?!


It makes sense. Ultimately, it's not perfect. However, ultimately, Grey Knights will likely struggle against Mechanised (the Meta) and ultimately, you won't be playing against them.

it's passable but it doens't necessarily make sense. first off, fluff =/= game rules as you stated; this is not an accident but on purpose. while there is lip service to it, they can't represent the way marines are in the novels in the game because a 1500pt marine army would consist of a tactical squad and rhino (and only give GW $60 in sales for an "army"). if you want to play 100% official movie marines, you'd have to convert a squad of truescale marines and use the paladin squad rules for them along with the HQ IC that makes them troops. also, deep striking or teleporting from orbit is NOT the in game equivalent of guerilla tactics... a mix of scout and infiltrate (+/- stealth and move through cover) are. either way, as i posted before, there are better ways to approximate the alpha's fluff (the stuff that makes them unique) by using the tyrant's legion rules (which he said he'd look at) or even using the existing rules with allies (either the WH or DH codex... IIRC, both can ally with marines.) Another option in larger games is to have two force organization charts, one with marines and the other with guard.

in the end, i wouldn't hestitate to play against an army like the one he is proposing assuming that he clearly modelled them as such. if he went through the trouble (and expense) of modelling each of his green chaos marine models with a combibolter and power weapon (the chaos equivalents of GK standard weaponry), i'd be satisfied. if he were to plop down some regular chaos marines with bolters and say they were GKs, i'd raise an eyebrow but probably still play. if he were to then tell me that the fluff of the incorrectly modelled non-wysiwig figs he's using matches those rules best, i'd reconsider playing the game as i would probably have a hard time believing anything said by that player during the game. in the end, much like with any counts as or proxied army, the WAY you do it makes all the difference with the rule of cool being pre-eminent. I don't think alpharius has actually said whether he'll just be using the rules with vanilla chaos models or if he's going through with converting a WYSIWIG force. If it's the later, i'm behind him 100%.

Kanluwen wrote:"Failing that", you've got the Tyrant's Legion and the Vraksian Renegade lists.

Legion is better for a more "Astartes" heavy Alpha Legion, while Renegade is better for their 'operatives'.

Or you can comp out entirely on it and use D-99 for Alpha Legion Operators outside of Power Armour.

And I agree, but good luck finding a store that will let you use those lists for tournaments. I'm not saying C:GK will be the only option or even the best, but to see everyone get in a tussel at the mere idea of it is laughable.

Anyways, back on topic but apparently Castellan Crowe makes Purifier squads troops.

Just Dave wrote:I'm not speaking on any Alpha Legions players (our or lord Alphy's) behalf, however, here is why using the GK codex for Alpha Legionnaires makes sense. At least more sense than any other Codex:

Most importantly - It allows a good mix of Astartes (GK) and non-astartes (Henchmen, Inquisitors, Stormies etc.)

The comparable power of the Grey Knights, compared to that of a bog-standard Henchman would be more in line with the BACKGROUND COMPARABLE ABILITY OF AN ASTARTES> NORMAL HUMAN.
This is the key bit that people (OK, 2 people) seem to be struggling to understand. It's not that Alpha Legionnaires are any tougher than normal Space Marines (although they are technically more experienced), it's that normal MeQ stats don't match up to a Space Marines ability in the fluff.
In the background, Terminators are nigh on invulnerable, Space Marines can loose limbs and fight on, Space Marines can spit acid and all kinds of other super-human abilities that are represented in the background. Its often stated in the background that a single Space Marine is comparable to 100's of Orks or Guardsmen.
Yet, in game, they're barely comparable to two or three.

In true fluff to stats, Space Marines would have much much better stats than they do at the moment. Ask almost any veteran; Space Marines fluff does not fit in with their in game ability.

Hence, the normal ability of a Grey Knight is more similar to that of how powerful a Space Marine is supposed to be. Its not that Alpha Legionnaires all have force weapons and storm bolters, it's that a Boltgun is supposed to fire what are effectively rockets and Space Marines are a lot more powerful in CC than Str4.

Basically, in this case, a Grey Knight is a better representation of what ANY Space Marine (not just Alpha Legionnaire) is like in the background.


Furthermore, if Grey Knights have improved abilities in terms of manoeuvrability, such as mass-deepstriking or relocation, then this better suits the Guerilla tactics used by Alpha Legionnaires.


So what does an Alpha Legion player gain by using the Grey Knight Codex?
- A mix of Marines and Humans - as per fluff.
- Ability to use what is akin to Guerilla warfare - as per fluff.
- Space Marines more similar to how they should be in game - as per fluff.
- What other Codex are they supposed to use?!


It makes sense. Ultimately, it's not perfect. However, ultimately, Grey Knights will likely struggle against Mechanised (the Meta) and ultimately, you won't be playing against them.

Half of your argument is a generic argument for how marine rules should be more like movie marines and can be safely discarded as it does not apply to Alpha Legion and more than it does to Blood Angels.

The other half of your argument is a mix of marines and humans, which is valid, and the ability to use Guerilla warfare... oops, you messed up that one.
Sorry, but teleporting is not Guerilla warfare. In fact, rules already exist in game to represent that! Let's take a magic tour through our rule book and remember that Infiltrate, Scout, and Stealth exist!

So after we cut away the 3/4 of your argument that are useless, it comes down to "you can take marines and guardsmen mixed" This is an entirely valid point. However, it is vastly outweighed by:

Totally incorrect basic troop armament
No infiltrating or scout marines aside from possible tactical geniusing
Very unfluffy anti-psyker specialization

When you can't even field a basic Alpha Legionnaire, there is a fundamental problem with your idea.

No not really!

I suppose I should have mentioned that these WILL be "Truescaled" Marines too...

Anyway... at least this book won't cost $40 to $50, and be hardback, eh?

bhsman wrote:As for the codex, you of all people (IIRC and if I'm wrong then I apologize) complained about Battle Missions, of all things. Maybe you should wait before making such proclamations, in either case.

I complained about Planetstrike being garbage. I may have been complaining about Battle Missions too, since those turned out garbage as well. /shrug

And, for me, that's not actually a complaint. A couple easy-as-pie hard builds in a codex (Hi Deathwing) is preferable to mucking through all the chaff to find something modestly competitive (Hi Tyranids).

And from the look, other options will at least be viable. Hopefully this is a lot closer to Space Wolves than Codex: Deathwing, and I think it probably will be given the amount of fluff love poured into GK.

Again, I don't care. Some people do care when they show up to a tournament and find themselves facing 15 Missilefangs in every single game. I'm not one, so w/e.

My own 'super duper secret codex knoweldge'.

Sadly that same super secret knowledge has not provided me with a picture of the Dreadknight...

I imagine it would have to look like a Penitent engine with a Terminator glued into the cockpit. I hope that's what it is, as the alternative is either that Matrix walker thing or an Avatar Deff Dread.

Still, at that point cost, with that weapon loadout, those things are insane. Here's hoping they actually release a model, or the kitbashing and counts-as will be rife as players strive to build the GK equiv of the Thunderwulf.

I don't think using Grey Knights as Alpha Legion stand-ins makes a hell of a lot of sense either (AL are not anti-Daemon psychic Marines), but really guys - who cares?

All the various Chaos Legion players ain't got gak these days besides a bland as all feth 1-trick pony of a Codex. There are people out there using various Loyalist lists to represent the Legions we used to have, so why should GK's be any different?

(On Karamazov)
So in other words he is worse than he is now? He will have less strength and no invulnerable save. I didn't see a mention of Relentless so he will have a hard time firing that Multi-melta if he moves. What's his poitn and why will he be in a Grey Knight codex since he was Ordo Hereticus.

Means he will be cheaper which is god sent in this codex.

Codex: Grey Knight embraces all Ordos. They are an Organization of Tolerance, well known for their cooperation with other organizations and their very public presence as the psychic UN of the Imperium.

For the greater good...of the Imperium of man I mean.

The rumors make it look like this will be a collective =I= codex with lots of GK present and even options for sisters of battle hangers-on.

Maybe you'd like to move the count-as discussion elsewhere
It's kind of annoying when rumors are constantly dripping out but people have to dig through Pyriel's inability to have fun to read about them.

So I´m the only one? thanks for being a hypocrite.

Brotherhood Champion:
74441*10 2+
Infantry, Character
Artificer, Frag, Krack, Iron Halo, storm bolter
Anointed Blade: Nemesis Force Sword, re roll failed wounds.

Whooa, even more anti horde options, looks fun.
Although I´m against the whole self sacrafice theme, GKs are incredibly rare and should do a little bit more self preservation me thinks.

I also like the probable higher WS for HQs and ICs, goes well with the GK-cc theme of the current codex.

Lord Draigo: WS 7 BS 6 S 5 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 5 Ld 10 Sv 2+ Points 275
Wargear: Titan Sword (str 10 vs demons and psykers), Storm Shield, Frag, Krak, Psyk-out grenades
Options: ?
Special Rules: Lord of Titan (take Paladins as troops), Psychic Mastery 2, Eternal Warrior
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Psychic Communion, Cleansing Flame

Wow, and I thought memphiston was bad enough.
With this codex HQ creep what will necrons get, 400p necron lords?
By the way, this HQ just screams Inquisitor Rex. Forgeworld here I come.

Nemesis Dreadknight (MC): WS 5 BS ? S 7 T 7 W 4 I ? A 3 Sv 2+/4++ 130 Points
Wargear: Heavy Psycannon, Super Incinerator, 2 close combat weapons.
Options: Personal Teleporter +75 Points
Special Rules: Monsterous Creature, Deepstrike, Psychic Mastery 1
Psychic Powers: Hammer Hand, Holocaust.

Think I just wet my pants, this will be landraider priced fully decked and so damn fun to use on the tabletop that I´m getting 3 of them and building a GK army around those no matter if they end up being crap or competitive. I love it when GW introduce new units and wouldnt it be for my super slow painting I´d be all over dark eldar right now.

Wonder if the personal teleporters will be scatter free, if so I think this unit is a bit broken.

And really, since everything is going to be properly modeled, WYSIWYG at all, the only objection Pyriel- has is... the color of the marines?

At this point, even he would have to admit to being more than a little 'unreasonable'...

Yeah yeah you little insidious fluff ruiner (a joke, no offense ment)
Take further debates like this in PM with me please, I dont want to be called out as the only one dragging OT stuff in here based on posts by you by that hypocrite.

Grand Master Mordrack:

Dagmire wrote:200 points
6 6 4 4 4 5 4 10 2+
this is the guy that comes with ghosts as his body guard.
Deep stikes like drop pods do, first turn landings ect
and give the D3 dice rolls to improve units


Marshal Augustine wrote:him and his squad will DS with NO scatter.
Stats are accurate.

Stealth for the Ghost Knights. (one wounded terminators)

Roll D3 for each unsaved wound he suffers. If = or greater than his remaining wounds, another knight shows up and joins the unit.
32pts per ghost minimum of 1 and max 10

Can have Nemesis Force Halberds for free, or nemesis deamon hammers for free.
Falchions for +5 per model.
Nemesis Warding Stave.
Psybolt ammo
Any model may make any weapon Master Crafted at +10.
Brotherhood banner +25.

Hmm, very fun option but how are those guys considered balanced?
Having 11 termies popping in amidst your lines without scatter on turn one is even worse then the dark angel special rule.
If supported by mech popping units at the back then what on earth are armies like tau and other cc weak shooty armies going to do against that?
Seems to be a bit to powerful but maybe those terminators will be particularily voulnerable to PA1-2 weapons to coulnterbalance it.

Also having night fight put on a unit that is meant to pop out in the middle of the enemy seems a bit unnecessary.

It may turn out to be insanely large, whatever GW actually has decided to call it. This new walker should be the next large kit for 40K, a mini-Titan. Hopefully the price is not more than the Stormraven.

HBMC said this will not be a "mini titan".

On the face of it, all the cool toys seem far too undercosted. Do people think this could be a synergy thing? ie the fancy stuff is cheap, because the scoring units are so expensive you'll have very few. Or has everyone agreed the cheapness is bad codex writing, designed to sell the new army?

Yhe cheapness will probably be countered by synnergy.
Look at the space wolves and dark eldar codexes, they have dirt cheap troops and shooty infantry options but pay through the nose for quality CC and the DE have freaking 6 point spammable troops that wound anything in the game at 4+ by shooting.
But still overall they end up fairly balanced when built to counter all comers.

Another means to balance it is ading costs for additional psychic powers to squads so the price skyrockets in the end.
That or having squads come with only ONE power, you can choose to keep the hammerhand for example but that means you dont get shrouding and can be deepstriked on etc.
if you choose shrouding or something else like holocaust you loose hammerhand and are no longer S5 and if you use a poer then you cannot use the force weapon ability on the same turn etc.

These small bits and pieces can contribute to a balanced whole quite well.

There's no such thing as a "true Fluff" Space Marines army, as your model scales make zero sense when it's a given that 40k Space Marines are 28mm tall on a 25mm round base.

I have no problem with the power level, but it would need to be modeled properly.

I could see this done via loyalist Machine Cult TechMarines using augmented systems like the Throne of Judgement, backed by masses of Drone servitors.

hmm, you just gave me some nice ideas...thanks

I'm guessing Vindicares will be best (although cba to run numbers until we have more info). Thats 11/12 chance of hitting, PLUS average pen. of 17, PLUS AP1, PLUS stealth PLUS infiltrate AND if your opponent skips vehicles, they still boot backside vs everything but the most extreme horde (although I honestly can't think of a opposition build where sniping out special and heavy weapons wont come in useful)

If the vindicare rumors are true I wonder how powerful must the eversor be in cc (he sucks currently) and how fun would the culexus be. currently the culexus is to specialized and does nothing.

So he's basically lysander, with frag & krak grenades, +1T & A and can have 2-wound termies as troops?!7
but why have hammerhand if you already have a S10 CCW?

Maybe hammerhand can be conveyed to units he joins?
Can hammerhand be stacked?

Some things seem illogical like stealth rule for guys meant to deepstrike right in the middle of the enemy army.

You're being intentionally obtuse. Pyriel has a legitimate point that Alpha Legionnaires, as hard core as you want to believe they are, are not properly represented as all having storm bolters, force weapons, and anti-psyker armor. Just because there are marines and there are humans does not mean "hey this is perfect for my AL army and there are no flaws in my plan!" Honestly basic space marines of any codex, with scouts, would probably be closer to correct than super-duper-amazing space marines and guardsmen.

I could do super psycher salamander marines as well but again, I dont like to bucher tabletop fluff.
Btw, sorry about the previous youknowwhat if it means anything to you.

If anything the GKs could best of all "count as" represent a small bloodraven army since those are rumored in the fluff to have squads consisting of psychers. But here I rant again and will probably be singled out and blamed for "all" of the OT posts again *sigh*.

It seems at least conceptually to be GK answer to fighting defilers and other daemon engines. I would imagine its going to be at least as tall as that.

Logical conclusion but normal troop GK termintors (with stormshields if allowed) do that job pretty well already.
I wonder what role will GK dreadnought have, I imagine a 6 dreadnought army will be made possible with 3 normal dreads and 3 ven dreads but dreads die like flies to shooting and cant CC worth crap.

Who will and why will GK dreadnoughts be used with all those other super cool options that do shooting and/or CC far better?

Well then why do you need str 10 vs psykers and demons if you already have str 10? unless it grants another ability

Hammerhand grants +1S so the Lord of Titan will get S6 power weapon attachs vs everything and S10 vs deamons as I understand it.

Dreadknights are insanely good. I assume that the wargear is actually wargear options, i.e. no 2 CCW if taking heavy psycannon, etc. If he gets all of that then he's basically a souped-up Khorne-Tzeentch-Nurgle Prince for fewer points and a massive shooting attack.

From what I've read the guns are as well as his close combat weapons.

so he has A4 in reality (extra DCCW included) as well as a super psycannon and super incinerator for 130 points?
Hmm, seems very underpriced. Wonder what will balance up this.

Personally, I'm skipping over what Pyriel says...

Wow, very neccesary thing to say.
Consider yourself ignored too then.

Why can't they have storm-bolters....? There's been some mention of them 'impersonating' other imperial marine units before, so why not? Captured equipment...?
Why can't they have force weapons...? What, they can't have any warp-based/blessed weaponry from the Architect of Fate (Tzeentch) or for some strange reason they're purists that have no psykers in their midst?

Hmm, very good points that I havent thought of. Made me finally agree to it all. (happy Alphy?)
Can we leave this now?

And try not to get H.B.M.C riled up. I think he just calmed down.

Call Kanluven


Now where are the =I= psychic powers that are rumored to be beefed up (since the =I=s will be pretty fragile)?

So what does an Alpha Legion player gain by using the Grey Knight Codex?
- A mix of Marines and Humans - as per fluff.
- Ability to use what is akin to Guerilla warfare - as per fluff.
- Space Marines more similar to how they should be in game - as per fluff.
- What other Codex are they supposed to use?!

Then there are other representations also:
Dark angels = lots of terminator armours.
Salamanders = lots of terminator armours, lots of quality wargear.
Blood ravens = lots of psychers.
Raven guard = even better, the spec ops and sneaky deepstrike guys of the space marines.

Go ahead and paint GKs blue, green, black or red if it yanks your chain.

Alpharius wrote:No not really!

If you are going to not bother to defend your position at least give up in a non-snarky way.

sourclams wrote:I imagine it would have to look like a Penitent engine with a Terminator glued into the cockpit. I hope that's what it is, as the alternative is either that Matrix walker thing or an Avatar Deff Dread

I hope the model is good. Honestly I can see so many lazy/stupid ways for GW to make a Dreadknight model that it seems more likely that it will be boring than cool.

ph34r wrote:
Half of your argument is a generic argument for how marine rules should be more like movie marines and can be safely discarded as it does not apply to Alpha Legion and more than it does to Blood Angels.

The other half of your argument is a mix of marines and humans, which is valid, and the ability to use Guerilla warfare... oops, you messed up that one.
Sorry, but teleporting is not Guerilla warfare. In fact, rules already exist in game to represent that! Let's take a magic tour through our rule book and remember that Infiltrate, Scout, and Stealth exist!

So after we cut away the 3/4 of your argument that are useless...

Ah, DakkaDakka, home of the "I can't refute your argument, therefore it's invalid!"

In all seriousness, Alpha shows up at a tournament (since that's the only place where this argument could conceivably matter), with his lavishly and exactingly customized Counts-As Alpha Legion, and the actual argument (the words now) proffered to the tournament organizers that he shouldn't be allowed to use the existing counts-as rules for his army would be...?

Let's be serious here, this Codex is going to be pretty insane if even half these rumors are true. We'll probably be getting space wolf models being used for counts-as GKs....

Buzzsaw wrote:Ah, DakkaDakka, home of the "I can't refute your argument, therefore it's invalid!"

In all seriousness, Alpha shows up at a tournament (since that's the only place where this argument could conceivably matter), with his lavishly and exactingly customized Counts-As Alpha Legion, and the actual argument (the words now) proffered to the tournament organizers that he shouldn't be allowed to use the existing counts-as rules for his army would be...?

Let's be serious here, this Codex is going to be pretty insane if even half these rumors are true. We'll probably be getting space wolf models being used for counts-as GKs....

Believe it or not, when you are making an argument for something other than what you are defending, your argument IS invalid. If I started arguing about how tyranids should cost less points to defend my counting World Eaters as Grey Knights, that wouldn't support me would it? If you argue for why marines should be closer to fluff it does not support Alpha Legion = Anti Daemon Psyker Marines.

Also, in an amazing display of irony instead of trying to argue against any of my points you ignore them, following the spirit of your own attack post. You hereby earn best hypocrite of the day.


Nobody would refuse to play against a well converted count-as, even if it makes no sense at all.

Honestly guys - give it a rest. You're conducting an Internet Pissing Contest over a proposed 'Counts As' army. Ain't you got anything better to do?

Pyriel- wrote:HBMC said this will not be a "mini titan".

HBMC also said that he had not seen a picture of this new unit (model or artwork), and that the description from the fluff he'd read makes it out to be a sorta-Dread, not an almost-Titan.

I don't think using Grey Knights as Alpha Legion stand-ins makes a hell of a lot of sense either (AL are not anti-Daemon psychic Marines), but really guys - who cares?

Well obviously Aplhy should care, if he isnt´t nice to me I wont sculpt up true scale Alpha legion marines for him to use instead of those GKs
lol

Semantics. If the new walker is significantly bigger than a Dreadnought, to me it's a "mini-Titan".

But it's not significantly bigger than a Dread. What even gives you the idea that it would be? It's somewhere between Termy and Dreadnought sized or, at least, every thing I've read about it pegs it as such.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But it's not significantly bigger than a Dread. What even gives you the idea that it would be? It's somewhere between Termy and Dreadnought sized or, at least, every thing I've read about it pegs it as such.

Kind of like war jacks then?

Maybe? Look, as I said, I haven't seen it, I've only read about it and I know what it's armed with/what options it has. Believe me, I wish I had seen a picture so I could just end this silly "Is it a Knight-Titan???" nonsense once and for all, but I haven't.

All I can report is what I know, and what I know is that the description of this unit (combined with the rumoured statline) in no way indicates anything above Dread-sized.

I'm not disagreeing, simply conjecturing along with the others, but how could it both fit a Terminator and all those weapons without looking ridiculous at less-than-Dread sized? I would hope at the very least it'd be like a Penitent Engine in scale--kinda lanky and long, but to be otherwise would make it a very dumpy, squat model.

Just Dave wrote:The comparable power of the Grey Knights, compared to that of a bog-standard Henchman would be more in line with the BACKGROUND COMPARABLE ABILITY OF AN ASTARTES> NORMAL HUMAN.

Actually, the biggest problem is that WS3 BS3 S3 T3 Guardsmen are beefy ubermenschen Arnold types. And their plastics are at least a half-head too tall.

Downpower Guardsmen, and everybody benefits.

sourclams wrote:I'm not disagreeing, simply conjecturing along with the others, but how could it both fit a Terminator and all those weapons without looking ridiculous at less-than-Dread sized? I would hope at the very least it'd be like a Penitent Engine in scale--kinda lanky and long, but to be otherwise would make it a very dumpy, squat model.

Who says there is a Terminator inside? It's piloted by a PAGK, not a Terminator*.



*From what I've read, again remembering that I haven't seen the model.

Any idea on what the Paladin squad can take upgrade wise/ what comes default?

Paladin weapons/upgrades costs?:

Force Halberds
Nemesis Deamon Hammers
Pair of Nemesis Falcions
Nemesis Warding Stave
Psycannon
Incinerators
Psylencers
Apothecary (75pts upgrade or add apothecary? in other words is it 75pts for one or 130 (55+75) pts im assuming 75)
Banner of Brotherhood
Entire unit can have psybolt ammunition
Any model can make any weapon Master Crafted at +5 pts per weapon. (5pts)

I hope the model is good. Honestly I can see so many lazy/stupid ways for GW to make a Dreadknight model that it seems more likely that it will be boring than cool.

If the cronos engine (anyone seen it yet?) can get a hopefully cool looking model then I have faith in GW giving us a good looking dreadknight.
Buth then after that chibihawk I have second doubts.

As for size, it really ought to be bigger then a dread since it is far more powerful and the low point cost kind of imply at least that it should be hard to hide from all the lascannons it will draw to itself.
A use for this model might actually be as a AT magnet to let that lone landraider survive more then one turn since the dreadknight can take far more punishment.

Also, in an amazing display of irony instead of trying to argue against any of my points you ignore them, following the spirit of your own attack post. You hereby earn best hypocrite of the day.

Think that one goes to Just Dave for ignoring what I write while simultaneouslyl having the stomach to reply to my posts and bash me. I cant make that one go around

Actually, the biggest problem is that WS3 BS3 S3 T3 Guardsmen are beefy ubermenschen Arnold types. And their plastics are at least a half-head too tall.

Is there somewhere amongst the rules a statline for "normal" humans, like civvies?



Does anyone have a knowledge of what models will be in the first wave GK release?
Will there be one big release or several waves like with the DE and SM lines?

Are the psycannon stats 1005 confirmed or is the S7 4shot rending statline just a rumor?
Also, any news on what an incinerator will do? I heard somewhere those will be free upgrades (replacing a force weapon, a stormbolter and 1A apparently make then free)

sourclams wrote:I'm not disagreeing, simply conjecturing along with the others, but how could it both fit a Terminator and all those weapons without looking ridiculous at less-than-Dread sized? I would hope at the very least it'd be like a Penitent Engine in scale--kinda lanky and long, but to be otherwise would make it a very dumpy, squat model.

Regardless if it's squat/big;

Take a Grand Master
Give D3 units Scout/CounterAttack/etc
Take 3 DreadKnights with teleporters
Give them scout
First turn gak storm

ph34r wrote:
Half of your argument can be safely discarded...
So after we cut away the 3/4 of your argument that are useless...

wait, what?
and ageofegos..lol...youve already discovered a type of spam, a deathstar unit and an evil unit-combo, before the codex is even released.

Pyriel- wrote:Are the psycannon stats 1005 confirmed or is the S7 4shot rending statline just a rumor?

The people providing the current wave of rumors have no access to the wargear details. So in this case, people are using the Blood of Kitten (and Stinger's) stats since everything else seems extremely similar.

As for models, Stickmonkey said that we'd see PAGK, TAGK, Storm Raven (ended up getting released earlier!), and Dreadknight (at the time just "large plastic kit") in plastic. For the metal blisters, he listed: New Stern, some kind of Chaplain (Brotherhood Champion it seems now), a Justicar upgrade character (this would be Thawn now), a Paladin upgrade character (No idea who that'd match; Draigo maybe?), an Inquisitor of some kind, and two unknowns. I don't have much faith in his rumors when it comes to codex-content, but I do think he's more reliable about kits.; and looking at the newest rumors, it seems like he was right.

And since we're talking about the shape of the Dreadknight, BoK described it as a cross between a Talos and Karamazov. Go wild with your imagination!

But it's not significantly bigger than a Dread.

Are we going to argue about the meaning of "significantly" now? No we're not. At least I'm not.

What even gives you the idea that it would be?

I'll never tell, on this forum that is.

That doesn't mean I'm correct about this, unlike some people I'm not thumping my chest and claiming to know everything because in this case I don't have as much info as I have had on some other things, which is to say I don't know someone who has seen it nor have I seen it myself. But I don't see the point in something slightly larger than a Terminator and smaller than a Dreadnought. Doesn't seem to fill any niche like the new larger kits the past few years have done. Something larger than a Dreadnought, on the other hand, could command a good price like the Stormraven and get everyone excited about owning one, or three. So on top of the things I'm not sharing here, a larger kit also makes more sense from a marketing standpoint. Large kits are in: Baneblade, Stompa, Valkyrie, Stormraven, Hellpit Abomination, Giant Spider, etc. Who the hell needs a "giant Terminator" or "mini-Dreadnought"? I guess if they are trying to sell something in squad quantities, then a larger, more expensive Terminator could be a winner for GW assuming people like it enough to buy it in quantity. Terminators are hard enough to sell at $50 US per box, how much will squads of giant Terminators cost? It seems nuts. Something between a Dreadnought and a small Knight Titan on the other hand, how many people would be drooling to buy one of those?

As long as the Dreadknight doesnt turn out like this...




... I'll be happy.

A ranged dreadknight sounds completely badass and seems to be one of the near perfect ways for anti-horde. Im not to sure about close combat oriented ones ( if you can even have an "oriented" dreadknight) because its likely a dreadknight in close combat will suffer the same problems as wraithlords, those being getting tarpitted till turn 5 by a bunch of IG and a commissar and the like. Having a Str 7 fast firing weapon mounted on an MC (are dreadknights relentless?) is going to be awesomesauce, and then you have what is rumoured to be a souped up inferno cannon in the form of the "super incinerator" and you have one hell of an awesome unit.

Couple that with the *chance* [see: improbable possibility] that these things can teleport 30 no scatter once per game and you can really ruin any light vehicle's / badly placed large unit of light infantry's / devastator squad's day.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidenote: I am thinking these GK are going to suffer from some serious "Divide and Conquer" tactics, would it be better to walk them through the enemies list together, try and hold objectives or go for killpoints, split them up or what? I think target priority is going to play a huge roll in the survival of our beloved GK.

I for one know I be fielding at least 1 storm raven, 1 dreadnought, and 5 paladins. IDK if I will go for draigo, he seems cheese, ill try him out though. I think my FIXED HQ (not to jump the gun here ) will be the Champion, he seems cool and not to costy points wise. Failing him, (ignoring Stern here because I dont know his stats or points and he could turn out to be an uberman) I will probably go with one of the customizable HQs.


I have high hopes that the Ordo Xenos inquisitor is in, he would probably have the most badass weapons like hellfire rounds and suspensors and stuff. Im excited

But it's not significantly bigger than a Dread. What even gives you the idea that it would be? It's somewhere between Termy and Dreadnought sized or, at least, every thing I've read about it pegs it as such.

Well, it would be illogical to have such a powerful MC, on pair with tyrants and carnies, to be smaller then a dread...that does absolutely nothing in comparison.
Not saying you are wrong or speaking bs, just pointing out the lack of logic with making it smaller.

Also a smaller model is easier to hide and slightly less prone to DS mishaps and those will only be added bonuses to something that is already perceived as overpowered.

Take a Grand Master
Give D3 units Scout/CounterAttack/etc
Take 3 DreadKnights with teleporters
Give them scout
First turn gak storm

It just cant be allowed. Its to game breaking.
There must be something important we dont know yet.

The people providing the current wave of rumors have no access to the wargear details. So in this case, people are using the Blood of Kitten (and Stinger's) stats since everything else seems extremely similar.

As for models, Stickmonkey said that we'd see PAGK, TAGK, Storm Raven (ended up getting released earlier!), and Dreadknight (at the time just "large plastic kit") in plastic. For the metal blisters, he listed: New Stern, some kind of Chaplain (Brotherhood Champion it seems now), a Justicar upgrade character (this would be Thawn now), a Paladin upgrade character (No idea who that'd match; Draigo maybe?), an Inquisitor of some kind, and two unknowns. I don't have much faith in his rumors when it comes to codex-content, but I do think he's more reliable about kits.; and looking at the newest rumors, it seems like he was right.

And since we're talking about the shape of the Dreadknight, BoK described it as a cross between a Talos and Karamazov. Go wild with your imagination!

Ah, thanks for the summary, appreciate the effort.

Something larger than a Dreadnought, on the other hand, could command a good price like the Stormraven and get everyone excited about owning one, or three.

A metal model would also be expensive and very cheap to produce giving a good profit.
Look at the SW wolf riding IC. Imagine if it was given dreadknight stats, people would buy it like crazy and it aint cheap.


As for the psycannons I dont really know what to believe, S7 with rending seems ok but 4 shots seems silly.
Then again 20 per psycannon meaning the mini looses 1A, a force weapon and a stormbolter might do that justice.

With a S6 rending there is at least an AV precedence. Assault cannons are better then lascannons at cracking heavy armour, imagine adding 1S to an assault cannon and you are up in the ridiculous power level heaven. The AP will also be interesting to see. It definitely cannot have AP3 or else this will be an ever spammed super gun giving the word "boring" a new meaning.

Pyriel- wrote:Well, it would be illogical to have such a powerful MC, on pair with tyrants and carnies, to be smaller then a dread...that does absolutely nothing in comparison. Not saying you are wrong or speaking bs, just pointing out the lack of logic with making it smaller.

What I'm saying is it is not bigger than a Dread, or at least its description doesn't make it sound that much more than a PA Marine riding around in a big Terminator. And I'm trying to put this 'Knight-Titan' nonsense to bed.

Pyriel- wrote:Also a smaller model is easier to hide and slightly less prone to DS mishaps and those will only be added bonuses to something that is already perceived as overpowered.

And? Since when has that ever mattered to the people who make the models or the rules?

Here's the most reasonable explanation I can think of for the "Dreadknight".

It's a Terminator-grade Grey Knight who's been voluntarily entombed within a Dreadnought.

'Cept it's not a Terminator.

Actually the D3 can be given to any walker of MC in the list, not henchmen tho.

The champion special character (Castellan) he makes purifier squads troop, and he is a brotherhood champion with 2 wounds for only 50pts more than a brotherhood champion.

And? Since when has that ever mattered to the people who make the models or the rules?

Calm down, I´m not debating or refuting you. I was merely pointing out some logical/illogical things. I´m sure you are right about what you heard and it is smaller then a dread but this thread is kinda for discussing things so...

He didn't say Terminator, he said Terminator-grade. Meaning someone with the experience and skill to wear Tactical Dreadnought Armor, but has instead given himself over to pilot a Nemesis Dreadknight instead.

Obviously you know more about the hows and whys then we do, but I just wanted to clarify.

Most GK's wear Termy armour. They get PA for special assignments (or so I'm told).

It would make sense, considering how they are supposed to be the best of the best and considering how awesome GKT armor is.

Pyriel- wrote:I was merely pointing out some logical/illogical things. I´m sure you are right about what you heard and it is smaller then a dread but this thread is kinda for discussing things so...

I see what you're saying, and yes, to you and me what you're saying is logical. But to the people who write the rules, not so much. I've mentioned in other threads that I have a first hand account of the Dev Team being actually shocked when told about problems with the rules. They have blinders on. Really big thick noise-cancelling blinders.

Kanluwen wrote:Here's the most reasonable explanation I can think of for the "Dreadknight".

It's a Terminator-grade Grey Knight who's been voluntarily entombed within a Dreadnought.

You know, that's even more silly. If they're going to design a new system, the least they can do is make sure that the guy inside can get out of it when the machine isn't in use or needed. Otherwise whenever the Grey Knights find themselves low on Dreadnoughts the Grand Master could just pick a random troop and beat the crap out of him until he's nice and good for entombment in a dread. It'd achieve the same effect.

They are one of two things:

1. They are piloted by living grey knights, they are simply vehicles, much like the Matrix defence suits or the Avatar AMP suits. They are sent out to combat greater daemons and soulgrinders, supporting the knights on the ground. The knight literally still wears his armour while piloting, and he may be exposed like a penitent engine because of this. May well be wearing terminator armour.

2. They are psychically controlled. Somewhere off battlefield a knight is using his mind to control the Dreadknight.

They are NOT:

- Dreadnoughts
- As big as a trygon
- Impossible to exit after use
- Knight-titans
- Mini-titans.
- toting 4 arms.


I am 100% sure all of this is correct. Trust me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all honesty, this model need be no bigger than a daemon prince. Ok a little bigger, enough for the Knight be be wearing armour on armour. But I am heavily suspecting we will at least be able to see the GK pilot (in his armour)

In all honesty, this model need be no bigger than a daemon prince. Ok a little bigger, enough for the Knight be be wearing armour on armour. But I am heavily suspecting we will at least be able to see the GK pilot (in his armour)

Again, semantics with everyone hedging their bets. Remember the rumors and comments just before Dark Eldar were released: "No top knots. I hate top knots, so I'm so glad there are no top nots. But, they have high pony tails." Um, those are top knots. And the minis were released and nearly everyone loved them regardless.

If the new walker is a piloted robot and it's slightly bigger than a Dreadnought, say even Daemon Prince sized, I don't care what everyone else is calling it, I did call it! LOL.

P.S. Whoever said it is not as big as a Trygon may wish to retract that in a few weeks.

BrassScorpion wrote:

In all honesty, this model need be no bigger than a daemon prince. Ok a little bigger, enough for the Knight be be wearing armour on armour. But I am heavily suspecting we will at least be able to see the GK pilot (in his armour)

Again, semantics with everyone hedging their bets. Remember the rumors and comments just before Dark Eldar were released: "No top knots. I hate top knots, so I'm so glad there are no top nots. But, they have high pony tails." Um, those are top knots. And the minis were released and nearly everyone loved them regardless.

If the new walker is a piloted robot and it's slightly bigger than a Dreadnought, say even Daemon Prince sized, I don't care what everyone else is calling it, I did call it! LOL.

And if it is NOT a sarcophagus, I called that

Jaon wrote:1. They are piloted by living grey knights, they are simply vehicles, much like the Matrix defence suits or the Avatar AMP suits. They are sent out to combat greater daemons and soulgrinders, supporting the knights on the ground. The knight literally still wears his armour while piloting, and he may be exposed like a penitent engine because of this. May well be wearing terminator armour.

Yes to everything but the Terminator Armour part.

Jaon wrote:2. They are psychically controlled. Somewhere off battlefield a knight is using his mind to control the Dreadknight.

Nope.

Dreadknights are tau jumpsuits on really serious steroids.

Seems the ordo xenos finally unlocked the secrets of the tau HQ suits and applied them for imperial GK use while also improving the things by a mile with psychic control, better armour, teleporters instead of rockets at the back, a GPS and a coffe cup holder for the pilot.

Whoever said the imperial tech was stagnant.


The only weird thing is leaving the pilot visible so that any shot or melee stab can kill the thing by hitting the pilot and bypassing all that thick armour.

Pyriel, the thing has a 2+ armour save, Its pretty much toting the same armour as most gk anyway I think its more for the strength to carry the big guns and punch holes in greater daemons than survivability. Other thing is it would be quite hard for a daemon to simply jump up and stab the thing in the face.

An exposed pilot is not so exposed whilst he is wearing Power Armour. It seems everyone is under the impression the pilot is wearing nothing but his underpants whilst piloting the Dreadknight. In any case he's not standing around chest exposed all the time, rather running towards the enemy or teleporting, all of which keep him mobile.

Yeah, this thing is going to be much more mobile than a dreadnought.

So everyone that thinks this dreadknight is the end-all be-all of the GK codex does realize that fully arming one like everyone seems to be assuming would make it cost 300ish points? Not that great a deal, if you ask me. 1/3 it's cost in kroot/guardsmen/boyz/etc. would keep it occupied the entire game.

Mnemoch wrote:So everyone that thinks this dreadknight is the end-all be-all of the GK codex does realize that fully arming one like everyone seems to be assuming would make it cost 300ish points? Not that great a deal, if you ask me. 1/3 it's cost in kroot/guardsmen/boyz/etc. would keep it occupied the entire game.

For 135, you get the psycannon, heavy incinerator and invun save. Personal teleporter is 70 point upgrade. Which puts you at 205. Now where near 300 points.

As a Nid player, this makes me cry.

Once you know what the Dreadknight's main weapon is called, you'll probably cry a little more.

synack wrote:

Mnemoch wrote:So everyone that thinks this dreadknight is the end-all be-all of the GK codex does realize that fully arming one like everyone seems to be assuming would make it cost 300ish points? Not that great a deal, if you ask me. 1/3 it's cost in kroot/guardsmen/boyz/etc. would keep it occupied the entire game.

For 135, you get the psycannon, heavy incinerator and invun save. Personal teleporter is 70 point upgrade. Which puts you at 205. Now where near 300 points.

As a Nid player, this makes me cry.

Not according to my sources. That load-out would be a bit less than 300, but still more than a landraider.

Guess it depends on how much the Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incinerator and Gatling Psilencer are. I doubt they come as standard. The standard weapons are a pair of Nemesis ****fists (keep guessing folks...), one of which can be swapped out for a Nemesis **********. The guns would be optional.

Of course, again, I have not seen the Codex, so I cannot say what the structure of the Codex options would be for sure, only what they will be.

Nemesis Force Fists and Nemesis Force Talons!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Guess it depends on how much the Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incinerator and Gatling Psilencer are. I doubt they come as standard. The standard weapons are a pair of Nemesis ****fists (keep guessing folks...), one of which can be swapped out for a Nemesis **********. The guns would be optional.

Of course, again, I have not seen the Codex, so I cannot say what the structure of the Codex options would be for sure, only what they will be.

Knightfist? Dreadfist? Nemesis Nemesisfists?

The number of ****'s is important.

FISTFISTS??

Serious guess: doomfists?

Fistfists! That's awesome.

Did you know that with the new Chapter Creation tools in the latest Deathwatch rulebook it's possible to make Chapters with the following names:

Ultimate Ultima
Ultra Fists
Death Death
Blood Fists
Doom Fists


There's a hint in there.

ph34r wrote:FISTFISTS??

Serious guess: doomfists?

I saw DOOMFIST in the rumours on another forum, so that may well be right...

I believe there is more than one option for swapping out the default CCWs.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Fistfists! That's awesome.

Did you know that with the new Chapter Creation tools in the latest Deathwatch rulebook it's possible to make Chapters with the following names:

Ultimate Ultima
Ultra Fists
Death Death
Blood Fists
Doom Fists


There's a hint in there.

Beat your spoiler by a minute! Man that's disappointing. Doomfists. Heh.
I saw a pretty good rendition of some of the chapters the other day. Pretty sure not all of them are randomly generated:

I so want a Space Luchadors Chapter now.

Space Skulls, Ultra Fists and Death Death (who's Chapter Icon is simply inspired) are all random ones. I think some of the others are as well (but not the Luchadors, Options and Weeaboos).

Interestingly someone took the Space Luchadors concept and ran with it, coming up with a dead-serious way that Chapter could work. It' was pretty good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:Beat your spoiler by a minute! Man that's disappointing. Doomfists. Heh.

I dunno what'cha talkin' 'bout chief. I've said nothing, and will reveal nothing. I've given hints, and people can draw their own conclusions.

On a completely unrelated note:

Slinky: Where did you see that name before?

[EDIT]: Hey, look at that. Warseer is reporting that the GK Dread comes with a Multi-Melta and a Doom Fist. Guess that makes it official. Warseer knows more than some of us.

Yep, twas on Warseer.

ph34r wrote:
I saw a pretty good rendition of some of the chapters the other day. Pretty sure not all of them are randomly generated:

Now that's a good way to start the the day.

I like the Nuclear Options but something about the Death Deaths (is their armor black? tell me it's black) just sings to me.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

ph34r wrote:
I saw a pretty good rendition of some of the chapters the other day. Pretty sure not all of them are randomly generated:

Now that's a good way to start the the day.

I like the Nuclear Options but something about the Death Deaths (is their armor black? tell me it's black) just sings to me.

KK, that's like your signatures ultimate fantasy.

Jaon wrote:They are one of two things:

1. They are piloted by living grey knights, they are simply vehicles, much like the Matrix defence suits or the Avatar AMP suits. They are sent out to combat greater daemons and soulgrinders, supporting the knights on the ground. The knight literally still wears his armour while piloting, and he may be exposed like a penitent engine because of this. May well be wearing terminator armour.

2. They are psychically controlled. Somewhere off battlefield a knight is using his mind to control the Dreadknight.

They are NOT:

- Dreadnoughts
- As big as a trygon
- Impossible to exit after use
- Knight-titans
- Mini-titans.
- toting 4 arms.


I am 100% sure all of this is correct. Trust me!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all honesty, this model need be no bigger than a daemon prince. Ok a little bigger, enough for the Knight be be wearing armour on armour. But I am heavily suspecting we will at least be able to see the GK pilot (in his armour)

The rumor I heard that was floating around was that its effectively a GK peninitent engine that may share components with a SoB kit. So thats kinda how I've pictured it.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Now that's a good way to start the the day.

I like the Nuclear Options but something about the Death Deaths (is their armor black? tell me it's black) just sings to me.

I thought you might like the Death Deaths. The type of humour that created them is right up your alley.

Someone did take a half-way decent stab at making a colour scheme for them. It was black and some very dark greys.

Death Deaths looks like something xzibit would come up with.

We put a Death in your Deaths, so you can die while you die.

The Dreadknight does as well.

"Yo Dawg! We heard you like Grey Knights and armour? So we put a Grey Knight in some armour and then put him inside another suit of armour so you can Grey Knight when you Grey Knight and armour when you armour!"

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Dreadknight does as well.

"Yo Dawg! We heard you like Grey Knights and armour? So we put a Grey Knight in some armour and then put him inside another suit of armour so you can Grey Knight when you Grey Knight and armour when you armour!"

I was just waiting for somebody to make that joke, thank god it isn't me.

aka_mythos wrote:
The rumor I heard that was floating around was that its effectively a GK peninitent engine that may share components with a SoB kit. So thats kinda how I've pictured it.

Dear god I hope not, that thing is one of the worst GW models ever.

However, it would not surprise me. With all the cool ways the dreadknight could be done, I fully expect GW to drop the ball on this one.

It would also likely seal the deal on GW seeing 0 money form me this year. If the dreadknight is cool I may pick up a couple along with some GKTs, maybe a SC. However if it sucks I doubt Ill buy anything. No use in just having a GKT squad kicking around.


I am/was thinking about doing a Forgeworld order, but I may use the money on some Battletech/Macross model kits instead.

I swear if we get a ChibiKnight I will throw GW through a window. I will still be forced to throw most of my life savins with them although...

The dreadknight could look really cool. I have high hopes. Also DOOMFISTS? I was under the impression they would be called wardfists, because HBMC said the name had something to do with the writer, which would mean it was ward

Wardfist doesnt sound so bad does it? Not as bad as Cruddfist thats for sure....

Jaon wrote:I swear if we get a ChibiKnight I will throw GW through a window. I will still be forced to throw most of my life savins with them although...

The dreadknight could look really cool. I have high hopes. Also DOOMFISTS? I was under the impression they would be called wardfists, because HBMC said the name had something to do with the writer, which would mean it was ward

Wardfist doesnt sound so bad does it? Not as bad as Cruddfist thats for sure....

KELLYFIST RIDING KELLYWOLVES HURR DURR.

Ah, his full name is Matt Doom Ward. Doom is his middle name.

Do the fists actually do anything beyond just acting like a regular DCCW? What's the point in renaming it?

Darn, I was hoping they'd turn out to be brofists.

I have high hopes for the Dreadknight regardless, and keep envisioning something vaguely ape-like in proportion, but composed of psychically animated plates of Aegis armor with an armored grey knight riding in the middle of it all. I've no doubt that the truth will be nothing like this, but I'll give whatever they DO come up with an honest chance before I go decrying it as OMG THE WURST THING EVARZ.

Nemesis PsyBrofistfists?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Yo Dawg! We heard you like Grey Knights and armour? So we put a Grey Knight in some armour and then put him inside another suit of armour so you can Grey Knight when you Grey Knight and armour when you armour!"

You win the thread sir.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Dreadknight does as well.

"Yo Dawg! We heard you like Grey Knights and armour? So we put a Grey Knight in some armour and then put him inside another suit of armour so you can Grey Knight when you Grey Knight and armour when you armour!"

+1000 internet win

this thread needs more leaked pics. Although, probably against the rules to post those, would be nice to see a Dreadknight with ultra-force fists and mega force halberd. Wait, they are using "nemesis" for the fancy name aren't they?

Will the dreadknight count its CC attacks as powerweapons?
As DCCWs with S10?
Or just normal attacks with S6?

The twin fist option seem to give it A4 so it might be geared out for serious CC but it depends on what the fists counts as.

If the thing doesnt have any psychic power horde control I can very well see it´s weakness being bogged down by cheap cc models like wyches, fearless boys etc.

Edit:
Just realized it has S7 and holocaust that can be cast on itself with close to no risk.

But the nature of its close combat weapons is unclear.

Being an MC means it's got count-as power weapons and +2d6 armor pen.

No reason it should have anything above its base S, as striking at S10 would be too over the top even for the super Leman Russ Punisher KhorneNurgleTzeentch Daemonhunters Prince.

The model itself might be tarpitable, but given the context of the list (I10 everybody-takes-a-wound-on-4+ power) I don't really see crowd control as a big problem for GK.

Regarding the comment someone made that the new Walker is not as big as a Trygon, I wouldn't count on that statement. It might very well be roughly that size.

The model itself might be tarpitable...

What was this supposed to mean, please?

BrassScorpion wrote:

The model itself might be tarpitable...

What was this supposed to mean?

30 stubborn guardsmen charge the Nemesis Dreadknight and you just forget about it for the rest of the game. Not a problem with the GK crowd crushing psy power.

Pyriel- wrote:The twin fist option seem to give it A4 so it might be geared out for serious CC but it depends on what the fists counts as.

H.M.B.C. seems to believe that the Dreadknight comes equiped with all four weapons, so no need to even "gear" the unit for CC.

Also, Marshal believes that Holocaust can be used and still allow the unit to fire:

Marshal Augustine;5298956 wrote:Holocast can be fired. Then the unit can fire.

So unless a horde can get the drop on the Dreadknight, they'll be eating Holocaust and the heavy psycannon in the same turn.

Kanluwen wrote:And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I call BS on these rumours.

Why the feth are the Jokaero in the Grey Knights codex? Why they feth are they in an Imperial codex, at all?

The only mention previous was that the Jokaero were at one point known to be "masterful craftsmen, with some Inquisitors bearing digital weapons that were on par with the Jokaero's creations".

Two words: Ordo Xenos.

It's an all-three-factions book (if any of this is to be believed). There will have to be daemonhosts, space monkies, and girls wearing bits of toilet paper running around with giant chainsaws that can carve a hole in a titan.

If anything, Jokaero support and are supported by rumors of an all Inquisition codex.

That's why.

Vhalyar wrote:H.M.B.C. seems to believe that the Dreadknight comes equiped with all four weapons, so no need to even "gear" the unit for CC.

I believe that it can have two guns in addition to its CCW's, not that it will automatically come with them.

And who is "HMBC"?

The poster now known as "Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar"?

Dreadknight could either be amazing or horrible. There is no middle ground for a model with such a mad concept.

It's interesting how there are several sources on here, all of whom think they are absolutely correct about the upcoming Grey Knight codex. The fact that many of them can't agree on various things mean that at least someone is actually, absolutely incorrect. Boy am I glad I'm not that person when the new codex comes out

But, I love reading this kind of thread so, right or wrong, thanks to everyone who's sticking their necks out on this one!

Pyriel- wrote:

Actually, the biggest problem is that WS3 BS3 S3 T3 Guardsmen are beefy ubermenschen Arnold types. And their plastics are at least a half-head too tall.

Is there somewhere amongst the rules a statline for "normal" humans, like civvies?

I believe Sanctioned Psykers, who are not really trained to the same standards as the Guard, are WS and S 2. Keep in mind that the true "maximum humans" get above S3/T3-- Harker is S4/T3 with Feel No Pain, Yarrick and Schaeffer are T4, and Straken is S6/T4, albeit with extensive modifications.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:H.M.B.C. seems to believe that the Dreadknight comes equiped with all four weapons, so no need to even "gear" the unit for CC.

I believe that it can have two guns in addition to its CCW's, not that it will automatically come with them.

Suggesting that the 'fully loaded' Dreadknight is more than the starting 130 pts + 75 for teleporter? It seems like an MC with far better than average CC and the kind of weapon loadout being discussed should be closer to 250 or so if the 'Nid dex is anything to go by for comparison's sake.

ColdSadHungry wrote:It's interesting how there are several sources on here, all of whom think they are absolutely correct about the upcoming Grey Knight codex. The fact that many of them can't agree on various things mean that at least someone is actually, absolutely incorrect. Boy am I glad I'm not that person when the new codex comes out

But, I love reading this kind of thread so, right or wrong, thanks to everyone who's sticking their necks out on this one!

99% of the time these inconsistencies come from when their respective source got their information. Different people see different versions at different point in writing process. Changes are made along the way and create the contradictions.

Going back to the hardback/softcover thing. The new orcs and goblins hardback is £22.50. So that's only £5 more than the softcover codices.

Not great that it's more expensive but it's a small price increase that I could live with so long as there's more fluff, how to guides and pictures of fully painted models etc etc.

Sorry if this has been mentioned already but I just can't bring myself to trawl thru 16 pages of this to see.

Im not sure what your asking Coldsadhungry ???

When will we se some models?

Within the month, if gw is anything to go by.

Jaon wrote:Within the month, if gw is anything to go by.

Really?! It's not often models get leaked, rules yes. Models no.
And as for letting us see what it is before it's released... I summon forth H.B.M.C.

Just Dave wrote:

Jaon wrote:Within the month, if gw is anything to go by.

Really?! It's not often models get leaked, rules yes. Models no.
And as for letting us see what it is before it's released... I summon forth H.B.M.C.

We are 3 months away, wont we see an actual feature on GW with the new models by the end of febuary / start of march? I thought that was the norm. I didnt mean leaks, I ment previews!

Personally, I expect start to middle of March would be about right, but I wouldn't expect anything within the month personally.

My mistake.

Well, we'll see...

Cerebrium wrote:Dreadknight could either be amazing or horrible. There is no middle ground for a model with such a mad concept.

Thats whay Im saying, could be great, but Im expecting suck. That way Im not disappointed if it does.

It's a new Reaper mini. But I thought it was interesting that they previewed it on the same week that jokaero are all of a sudden a topic of discussion again.

Ivan wrote:

It's a new Reaper mini. But I thought it was interesting that they previewed it on the same week that jokaero are all of a sudden a topic of discussion again.

Lol, it even has the Inquisition's "I" at the bottom of the rock


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:Personally, I expect start to middle of March would be about right, but I wouldn't expect anything within the month personally.

Most likely they will put the Grey Knights advance orders on their website the next wednesday after March 5th (the day of the O&G release).

So I'd say we'll see the models on March 9th if nothing leaks before that time.

Just Dave wrote:Really?! It's not often models get leaked, rules yes. Models no.
And as for letting us see what it is before it's released... I summon forth H.B.M.C.

My powers may be great, vast and almost without limitation, but if I did everything then no one would get to share in my glorious glory. So I’ll let someone else reveal the majesty that is the Dreadknight to you.

(/humility)

In all seriousness, despite your vote of confidence, producing a pic of the Dreadknight is beyond my capabilities. I’d have to have one of my sources share such a pic with me, and if he had one he’d probably just post it himself (as would be his right) rather than giving it to me. And if my main source was to share one with me... I wouldn’t be able to post it anyway. Silly, I know, but them’s the breaks of the fast paced world of Games Workshop Rumours.

Now if you’ll excuse me, my high speed lifestyle requires that I immediately go and drift race some Asian guys.

Pray to the god emperor for leaks

Jaon wrote:Pray to the god emperor for leaks

Yeah cmon Assange i know your fighting extradition and all but we're waiting for leaks here....

Now if you’ll excuse me, my high speed lifestyle requires that I immediately go and drift race some Asian guys.

You gonna get your a** handled back to you in SC2 by some koreans again?
lol

I was just wondering guys, no matter how awesome GK are gunna be...how are 25 models going to fair against 120 orks and their kit?

Even with the best rolls walking into combat with them would be a bit of a spartapit.

Jaon wrote:I was just wondering guys, no matter how awesome GK are gunna be...how are 25 models going to fair against 120 orks and their kit?

Even with the best rolls walking into combat with them would be a bit of a spartapit.

Did you read the rumors? Free blast templates before initiative? Base stormbolters, great saves and flamers. That's to start with. Hordes aren't going to be a problem, I think.

Jaon wrote:I was just wondering guys, no matter how awesome GK are gunna be...how are 25 models going to fair against 120 orks and their kit?

Even with the best rolls walking into combat with them would be a bit of a spartapit.

Through the use of an ancient and revered technique passed down since the foundations of their chapter had been lain.

An archaic term, loosely translated today we know it as...the "Stormbolter Shuffle."

Jaon wrote:I was just wondering guys, no matter how awesome GK are gunna be...how are 25 models going to fair against 120 orks and their kit?

Even with the best rolls walking into combat with them would be a bit of a spartapit.

Actually, for the Purifiers at least, attacking them is suicide. While it depends on precisely how their unique power works, you're talking about 60 Orks charging a single 10-man squad and getting annihilated in the first round of combat.

Each model in b2b takes a wound on a 4+, and is allowed a armor save/fnp. For Slugga Orks and assaulty-gaunt Nids, yeah. That's a hard counter for them. But things like nob squads, Terms, and Khorn 'zerkers, that isn't too much of a problem.

Orks will need to use 'Ard'er units on Purifiers, or use Shoota boyz. Nids have some nice ap3 blasts for them, in addition to plenty of Multy wound models to throw at them. And remember, you don't need to be in b2b to attack. Sure, most are, but there will be PLENTY of orks who are attacking from the second row that don't have to make that check.

Sentai_Sage wrote:Each model in b2b takes a wound on a 4+, and is allowed a armor save/fnp. For Slugga Orks and assaulty-gaunt Nids, yeah. That's a hard counter for them. But things like nob squads, Terms, and Khorn 'zerkers, that isn't too much of a problem.

Orks will need to use 'Ard'er units on Purifiers, or use Shoota boyz. Nids have some nice ap3 blasts for them, in addition to plenty of Multy wound models to throw at them. And remember, you don't need to be in b2b to attack. Sure, most are, but there will be PLENTY of orks who are attacking from the second row that don't have to make that check.

First off, it's been stated the power will hit everyone in the squad, not just the models in B2B, so with 2 different versions, it could go either way.

Nids Ap3 blasts will never get there, psycannons will RIP up zoans. I doubt most zoans will even see turn 2. As a Nid player myself, I'd probably throw a trygon into them, hopefully with FnP. This is of course assuming that NFW aren't power weapons. In which case there's probably nothing a Nid player can do.

Hmmm, Indeed. Well, then keep the Slugga boyz away, and use the shooty bits. And as for Nids? Well... Good luck.

I intend to shoot at them with about 60 Bolt Guns, 6 LC's , 6 TL HB, 6 Melta guns, for 1500 points.

They'll feel pain, I guarantee it...

You know what Akira, I disagree, I think they wont feel a thing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic. Ok lets say we have this wound on a 4+ with saves and we have 30 orks attacking 10 purifiers.


lets just say no one has the charge. And lets leave out ranged combat because orks would blow a significant amount of GK off the board with weight of fire.

So this ability (hits everyone in squad) activates at the start of combat. It kills 8 orks. we have 22 orks left. Each GK has 2 attacks (probably) so they will kill about 7 orks. Give or take. Now we have 15 orks left and they get to fight back.

GK simply cannot afford to have people fighting back at all :/ I mean this was actually a horrible example coz storm bolters weren't used, but if the orks waaagh and are fearless we wont be able to sweep them and these are PURIFIERS, whats gunna happen with normal GK?

And whats the storm bolter shuffle? Is it a valid tactic or just a saying?

Line up and spam bolter shots?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(note the orks are worth 210 and the GK most likely 250 in this scenario)

Jaon wrote:Back on topic. Ok lets say we have this wound on a 4+ with saves and we have 30 orks attacking 10 purifiers.... So this ability (hits everyone in squad) activates at the start of combat. It kills 8 orks.

30 hits gives 15 wounds gives 12.5 kills, not 8. Add in the kills from the GKs themselves, and your Orks are down to ~11. 11 Choppa Boys gives 33 attacks gives 16 hits gives 8 wounds gives 1 failed save.

GK simply cannot afford to have people fighting back at all :/

An entire 30 Boy mob with Klaw Nob will only kill 3-4 of them, and be annihilated in return, even if the Orks charge. That's not bad.

I mean this was actually a horrible example coz storm bolters weren't used, but if the orks waaagh and are fearless we wont be able to sweep them and these are PURIFIERS, whats gunna happen with normal GK?

You don't need to sweep them when they're suffering 15+ No Retreat wounds.

AlexHolker wrote:
30 hits gives 15 wounds gives 12.5 kills, not 8. Add in the kills from the GKs themselves, and your Orks are down to ~11. 11 Choppa Boys gives 33 attacks gives 16 hits gives 8 wounds gives 1 failed save.

Purifiers have a 3+ armour save, so it's more like 2.66 failed saves.

synack wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:
30 hits gives 15 wounds gives 12.5 kills, not 8. Add in the kills from the GKs themselves, and your Orks are down to ~11. 11 Choppa Boys gives 33 attacks gives 16 hits gives 8 wounds gives 1 failed save.

Purifiers have a 3+ armour save, so it's more like 2.66 failed saves.

How do you know that? What if all PAGK have artificer armor?

I love all this math. I think 6th Ed should just do away with dice, and everyone can just do the average in their heads

ph34r wrote:How do you know that? What if all PAGK have artificer armor?

They don't. Or, to be more accurate, they shouldn't, given what I've read.

Ive never been so happy to be proven wrong.

And his point is there is far more chance for the GK to lose 2 men than one, seeing its leaning to 3 deaths more than anything.

Ok so we defeat 30 ork boys who are not worth our points. Now all I worry about is plasma cannons. A single well placed plasma cannon can potentially remove 200 points of infantry (in the form of 4 terminators)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Really?! It's not often models get leaked, rules yes. Models no.
And as for letting us see what it is before it's released... I summon forth H.B.M.C.

My powers may be great, vast and almost without limitation, but if I did everything then no one would get to share in my glorious glory. So I’ll let someone else reveal the majesty that is the Dreadknight to you.

(/humility)

In all seriousness, despite your vote of confidence, producing a pic of the Dreadknight is beyond my capabilities. I’d have to have one of my sources share such a pic with me, and if he had one he’d probably just post it himself (as would be his right) rather than giving it to me. And if my main source was to share one with me... I wouldn’t be able to post it anyway. Silly, I know, but them’s the breaks of the fast paced world of Games Workshop Rumours.

Now if you’ll excuse me, my high speed lifestyle requires that I immediately go and drift race some Asian guys.

Oooh... Hmmm... Ehhh...

... I actually meant that you comment on Games Workshops refusal to show us anything before it's released. Or ya' know, their "marketing"/"advertisement" strategy.

But hey, drift racing and humility will do instead.

I'm curious if anyone here is thinking they'll try an Inquisitor Corteaz army with henchmen taken as troops? I'm guessing henchmens' viability will be limited mostly by the restiction of the number of each type can be in the squad. I'm betting Acolyte Warriors won't be restricted... probably how they intend you to use those inducted ST and IG models. With so many choices, it strikes me that wound allocation rules will really help them.

Jaon wrote:And whats the storm bolter shuffle? Is it a valid tactic or just a saying?

Line up and spam bolter shots?

Move back 6", fire Storm Bolters, move back 6", fire Storm Bolters, repeat ad nauseum and then get the charge off.

From what I'm seeing, henchmen are probably one of the best things in the codex. Wound allocation games, wide variety of abilities, cheap meatshields, and good transports makes for a winner!

An entire 30 Boy mob with Klaw Nob will only kill 3-4 of them, and be annihilated in return, even if the Orks charge. That's not bad.

Dunno, orks seem to be the less troublesome of the GKs opponents.
Lets assume logically that the GK squad (normal strike squad) is allowed 2 turns of shooting before the orks running towards them get into Cc.

That is some 13 dead orks and that is without having any otre weapons in the squad like psycannons, holocaust etc..
When close enough it´s a 50-50 on who gets the charge as "run" isnt exact and the GKs can still shoot stormbolters and move to countercharge at the last moment.
So for the sake of worst case possible lets assume the orks gets the charge.
GKs strike first, probably getting 20 attacks (since a 1A GK for 20p is just to impossible).
10 hit and with hammerhand they wound at S5.
Making for 7 dead orks (maybe 8 with the justicars extra attack but lets say 7).

Orks hitting back will be 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 dead GKs plus 2 more dead GKs from the claw nob.
Orks loose Cc with 7 to 4 loosing 3 more orks to taking fearless wounds.

After first turn of Cc the score is now 6 Gks vs7 orks.

Next turn sees 12 GK attacks hitting 6-7 and killing 4-5 orks.
Claw kills 2 GKs.
Orks loose with 2 to 4 attempt to break and run and are caught and annihilated.
4GKs left.

GK lost 120 points, orks lost 240p with orks getting the charge and GKs only shooting twice with basic stormbolters AND orks getting the charge.

In "reality" the orks might use terrain and get saves but add another turn of shooting and the GKs might "step back" for yet anotehr turn of shooting.
The GK squad will also be geared with powerful heavy or flame weapons.


The really interesting thing is how many attacks do GKs get?
Statline says a puny A1 which would be totally ridiculous and overnerfed from the current codex.
Will the stormbolter give them +1A?
Will they get charge bonus ont op of that or just?

Meaning are GKs A1 with A2 only on the charge or are they A2 (A1 with special/heavy weapon) and A3 on the charge?
I fear the GKs will end up as A1 and A2 only on the charge as a 20p base cost and power weapon as standard seems pretty balanced at 20p base cost.

With A1 GKs will people ever take PAGKs? They would be total crap at melee and the strike squads wouldnt even be able to handle basic horde squads, only SM tac squads in melee but SM tacs will annihilate an equivalent GK strike squad in shooting so what´s the deal.

Pyriel- wrote:
overnerfed from the current codex.

I wouldnt worry about that, they are SM, and GW isnt likely to nerf SM much if at all. Besides, I fully expect this codex to continue the trend of "more powerful than the last one" that GW seems to do.

After all nothing sucks in the newbs and WAAC gamers like the newest army being the most powerful...until the next release comes out...

So Aegis armor got changed...I like the boost but I have to say the old mini psychic hood did come in handy more than i see this coming in handy.

ATSKNF-very disappointed to lose fearless

Combat squads-this is stupendous...being able to split up such elite units is necessary

Brotherhood of Psykers-I am assuming this will be a choose the highest leadership in the army for psychic test ability

Psyker Mastery Levels-Makes sense that GW would start to turn towards such fantasy based rules

Preferred Enemy: Demons-makes sense and doesn't ruin daemons...

Nemesis Force Halberds:.-Was initially very let down by this but every squad has hammerhand and therefore S5 most of the time...while i did lose WS5 (big letdown) having S5 on I5 with 3 attacks on the charge...money

Psycannon:-We knew we would probably see two modes of shooting...honestly the AP3 rumor was ridiculous and this makes much more sense...rending...f*** yeah...especially when combined with the no LoS necessary rule

Incinerator:-They had to replace "no invulnerable saves" with something but rending is ridiculous

Personal Teleporter:If this makes my troops into fast attack...not worth it...if it keeps my troops as troops...oh man this is insane...means I have a last turn dash of 31" minimum

Hammer Hand: They really dumbed this psychic power down...but made it available and applicable to everyone...I like

Warp Quake: Generally not the best power here...but seeing as normal squads just get it...it definitely has its uses

Holocaust:Same as usual...just hope it's still a close combat attack

Quicksilver:saw that certain units had psych out grenades...so this power wont be used as much i think because it does the same thing.

Warp-Rift:-got to know the downside to this before i make jugdements...

The Summoning: not bad...but boring

Smite: Probably never going to use it in comparison to other powers

Might of Titan: I want to know if this can be used in conjunction with the psycannons...because whatever they're shooting is destroyed. 16 S7 Rending shots with 2d6 armor pen...oh goodness

The Shrouding: complete cheese...tasty

Mind Blades: my goodness...i cant believe some of these powers...

Vortex of Doom: Good...but not my favorite.

Sanctury: activated during the enemy assault phase?...if so...game changer

Psychic Communion (reserves are going to be big for this army)

Heroic Sacrafice (Champion only): As I saw someone say on BoLS...trygon just killed my 5 man unit?...goodbye...this is ridiculous

Cleansing Flame (Purifiers only): Really excited to use purifiers...hoping purifiers are simply incinerator gks

Astral Aim (Purgation Squad only): Combined with certain other psychic shooting powers...insane

Reconstruction (techmarines only): Techmarine has a psychic power?...i will take it

Fortitude (Vehicle only): vehicles are psychic?...i will take it...hammer of witches is gonna suck...now we know why gw said things would be hard to kill...Fortitude+Shrouding+Reconstruction

Zone of Banishment(Captain Stern only):Oh Stern...you're a silly b****

Apothicary:-FnP 2 wound terminators?.....bah....

Lord Draigo-As Caboose pointed out to me...doesn't call him an IC

Brother Captain Stern: It's my boy Stern...if he still counts as a Grandmaster...this is my character...

Inquisitor Corteaz: Henchmen army?...I am tempted...

Inquisitor Karamazov - Witch Hunter-What?
Inquisitor Valeria - Xenos Hunter-What?

Grand Master: -Oh my goodness these guys change the army...

Librarian-Can buy powers on cheap!

Inquisitor:-kind of mediocre to bad...but they look like they can be tricked out...and look...STUBBORN

Arco Flagelant-Fun!

Banisher...I can see the use...liking the eviscerator...but not going to be used with me probably

Crusader:-Storm shields...there we go

Demonhost:-for henchmen armies only i guaruntee...hope they're fun or slightly useful

Deathcult Assassin:-I had fun with these before...doubt they'll change much

Weaponsmith:-this guy is insane...got to be expensive.

Mystic:I have mystics?...i wonder what the do...

Psyker:IG PSB?...do I get everything?

Warrior Acolyte:Jack of All trades

Purifier Squad: Ah...they're a squad...hopefully I can put them in a chimera then...

Venerable Dreadnought: Venerable...and has fortitude...bahahahaha

Paladin Terminator:-seriously...seriously...put them in a stormraven...balls

Vindicare-first time i use this guy i am going to shoot the invulnerable save of ghazgull

Assassin Profile-insane stats...that callidus just got a boost...bs 8?...vindicare win

Grey Knight Terminator-cant see using these when there are paladins...sorry

Grey Knights Strike Squad (the regular GK's)-20 points...and dumbed down...to add synergy with the rest of the insane options that then makes them awesome again...I will be running much more of this than the paladin cheese.

Razorback-New more survivable razor knight spam coming soon!

StormRaven:-The only thing i needed to make the army better

Purgation Squad-what's a psylencer?...who cares...psycannons are awesome at 20 pts...

Nemesis Dreadknight (MC)-Hope he can go in a stormraven...he is an MC though...but look at this guy...two super guns and power weapons...T7 and a 2+...Its a dream

Ghost Knights -Hard to take this seriously...they must die after he dies...or the character is insanely expensive

So there's my initial synopsis after seeing these rules posted on several sites...but then again...this could be complete bull...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/02/40k-rumors-grey-knights-latest.html

Is where I found a..."more complete" list of rules...yadayadayada...something about a grain of salt...

ductvader wrote:...The Shrouding: complete cheese...tasty...

That really turns me off to things... you can't have cheese without whine.

Don't worry...when you bring the cheese your opponent will supply the whine.

I'm surprised you think giving units a 5-6+ cover save is cheese.

Oh believe me...I appreciate it...I love it...but rumors say you get stealth with a minimum 5+ in the open...stealth...so a 3+ behind hard cover.

ductvader wrote:Oh believe me...I appreciate it...I love it...but rumors say you get stealth with a minimum 5+ in the open...stealth...so a 3+ behind hard cover.

Scouts can get the same thing. Are they cheesy, too?

No...but My FnP Paladin Termies, DreadKnight, Land Raider, and everything else are much hardier than scouts...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh...and I wonder if techmarines can bolster defenses...interesting...

Maybe, but I think it's far too easy to talk about imbalance when we haven't seen costs yet.

So from what I've read on the GK rumors...

(KEY: < = Weak Against, > = Strong Against)

GK < Eldar
GK > Tyranids
GK << Tau
GK >> Dark Eldar
GK <<< IG
GK >>> Chaos Daemons
GK ? Necrons
GK ? Chaos Space Marines
GK <<<<<<<<< MEQ(5th Edition)
Everyone but SOB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SOB (So they are probably going to Squat-land)


Thoughts on the chart?

~DAR

Not sure what you are basing any of that on. GK are weak against Tau and MEQ? Serious?

A little early to pull the tier / rock-paper-scissors arguments out, considering we haven't seen the whole codex yet and only a couple of theoretical builds emerged.

Also, how does the GK codex change SOB/WH, since right now they have several pretty competitive builds and the GK codex literally does not change any of that.

ductvader wrote:Oh...and I wonder if techmarines can bolster defenses...interesting...

Purgation/PAGK spam with mass psycannons would be quite viable if this was the case. 2+ everything saves... whoo.

I agree, trying to play the Rock-Paper-Scissors game without an actual codex will only end in tiers.

bhsman wrote:I agree, trying to play the Rock-Paper-Scissors game without an actual codex will only end in tiers.

lol win.

sourclams wrote:

ductvader wrote:Oh...and I wonder if techmarines can bolster defenses...interesting...

Purgation/PAGK spam with mass psycannons would be quite viable if this was the case. 2+ everything saves... whoo.

2+ cover, Astral Aim, Might of Titan, Purgation Squad...ohhhh?

Haven't heard anything on if Might of Titan is only CC or not...

The way it's written it looks CC-only.

And quite frankly I couldn't imagine it *not* being CC only.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:So from what I've read on the GK rumors...

(KEY: < = Weak Against, > = Strong Against)

GK < Eldar
GK > Tyranids
GK << Tau
GK >> Dark Eldar
GK <<< IG
GK >>> Chaos Daemons
GK ? Necrons
GK ? Chaos Space Marines
GK <<<<<<<<< MEQ(5th Edition)
Everyone but SOB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SOB (So they are probably going to Squat-land)


Thoughts on the chart?

~DAR

really that good against dark eldar? with talos's and incubi? dont forget ravagers with d cannons. in close combat with wyches? it depends on the build as to how well they will do. and why do you think the SOB will go the way of the squats rumor says new codex next year.

I don't really see a lot of Gouda in what's being posted so far, but I think it's because I've had my cheese compass beaten into numbness by the current guard codex.

If GK/Inquisition can reliably beat the guard parking lot and their 130 point flying, scout, triple linked lascannon troop transports we can possibly discuss cheese.

Until then, I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

bhsman wrote:Move back 6", fire Storm Bolters, move back 6", fire Storm Bolters, repeat ad nauseum and then get the charge off.

Better yet, if your unit has access to Holocaust:

Marshal Augustine wrote:Holocast can be fired. Then the unit can fire.

As for the whole army comparison, that's so slowed when we don't even have the codex and far as we know the recent leaks are from a date source.
I oh so remember all the cries of Tyranids being overpowered and cheesy. And then we got the codex.

I imagine that a DE player using the Crucible of Malewhatever could easily make the GK player cry if he's using a costly deathstar unit.
And I don't play Witchhunters, but don't they get a lot of tools to murder psykers?

That's actually what worries me the most, that the entire army's effectiveness is based on constantly using powers. But then you meet the Eldar or any of the many anti-psyker tools out there and suddenly the whole army is taking a sharp drop in effectiveness.

Vhalyar wrote:That's actually what worries me the most, that the entire army's effectiveness is based on constantly using powers. But then you meet the Eldar or any of the many anti-psyker tools out there and suddenly the whole army is taking a sharp drop in effectiveness.

This.

If Grey Knights don't have anything to counter psychic defense (hoods, runes, SitW), then this codex will be completely ed. If Ld 9 on Justicars turns out to be true, then even a Psychic Hood nullifies Hammerhand on an equal roll.

Vhalyar wrote:I imagine that a DE player using the Crucible of Malewhatever could easily make the GK player cry if he's using a costly deathstar unit.
And I don't play Witchhunters, but don't they get a lot of tools to murder psykers?

That's actually what worries me the most, that the entire army's effectiveness is based on constantly using powers. But then you meet the Eldar or any of the many anti-psyker tools out there and suddenly the whole army is taking a sharp drop in effectiveness.

Njal has his 3+ staff of 'No' and RP's have 4+. Witchhunters still have infinite range Ld10 Psy Hood and I could see myself fielding an Inq with 'Hammer of the Witches' after GK come out.

20 Pt Psy Power - Roll a D6, that number of Enemy Psykers must pass a leadership test or Perils. No LOS or range and can be used in assault.

Cpt. Rusty Hook wrote: and why do you think the SOB will go the way of the squats rumor says new codex next year.

...because there's a segment of wargamers that for whatever reason can't deal with the concept of a female themed army in the sausage fest that is the 40th Millennium and have to bring up how the army is going away whenever they can when Necrons have an earlier book but suffer none of those stupid rumors.

On the other hand are the creepsters that model breasts onto their space marines but it takes all kinds.

You can toss in the Culexus as being a pretty nasty trick too.
Hopefully there's something in the final version's army wide rules or in the wargear that can protect your units from having their effectiveness badly sheared or being outright destroyed.

Let's avoid this particular detour so as to keep the thread unlocked.

LucasLAD wrote:I don't really see a lot of Gouda in what's being posted so far, but I think it's because I've had my cheese compass beaten into numbness by the current guard codex.

If GK/Inquisition can reliably beat the guard parking lot and their 130 point flying, scout, triple linked lascannon troop transports we can possibly discuss cheese.

Until then, I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

It didn't help that you regularly played against one of the most honestly ruthless Guard players around every other week.

pretre wrote:
Njal has his 3+ staff of 'No'...

This seriously made me laugh out loud, a lot.

On topic: If GKs get their mobility issues cleared up through teleporters, the summoning and access to decent transports that get immune to shaken/stunned results? I think they'll be okay against said "guard parking lot," (which also made me lol.)

pretre wrote:

Vhalyar wrote:I imagine that a DE player using the Crucible of Malewhatever could easily make the GK player cry if he's using a costly deathstar unit.
And I don't play Witchhunters, but don't they get a lot of tools to murder psykers?

That's actually what worries me the most, that the entire army's effectiveness is based on constantly using powers. But then you meet the Eldar or any of the many anti-psyker tools out there and suddenly the whole army is taking a sharp drop in effectiveness.

Njal has his 3+ staff of 'No' and RP's have 4+. Witchhunters still have infinite range Ld10 Psy Hood and I could see myself fielding an Inq with 'Hammer of the Witches' after GK come out.

20 Pt Psy Power - Roll a D6, that number of Enemy Psykers must pass a leadership test or Perils. No LOS or range and can be used in assault.

I agree that's a problem, but it becomes much less of a problem if Psy-disruption model gets BOOMHEADSHOT-ed by a Vindicaire.

Yeah, Vindicares are looking more and more to be near-vital in a competitive GK army. If only for their flexibility, ability against tanks and psykers.

sourclams wrote:
I agree that's a problem, but it becomes much less of a problem if Psy-disruption model gets BOOMHEADSHOT-ed by a Vindicaire.

hehe. Very true. Everything has a counter.

What of the dreaded Psylencers- which may or may not be a weapon that fires at anyone who uses a psyker power or tries to block one.

Just a shot in the dark, but wouldn't that be cool?

Gitzbitah wrote:What of the dreaded Psylencers- which may or may not be a weapon that fires at anyone who uses a psyker power or tries to block one.

Just a shot in the dark, but wouldn't that be cool?

I have to admit I hope it's not as overtly lame as something called the 'psylencer' must ultimately be, but for an army so reliant on psykers doing their thing I do believe that there'll be something to counter psychic counters.

Jaon wrote:Im not sure what your asking Coldsadhungry ???

Nothing, was just commenting on the issue of making the codex a hardcover and whether the increased cost would be off putting. Pretty sure it was raised in this thread, right? Maybe it was on warseer...

Current rumor has the 'hardcover only' thing being restricted to WFB and Army Books.

For now...

If "successful" I wonder what the soonest they bring hardcovers over into 40k?

I wouldnt worry about that, they are SM, and GW isnt likely to nerf SM much if at all. Besides, I fully expect this codex to continue the trend of "more powerful than the last one" that GW seems to do.

After all nothing sucks in the newbs and WAAC gamers like the newest army being the most powerful...until the next release comes out...

We are all screwed when the necron codex comes out

So Aegis armor got changed...I like the boost but I have to say the old mini psychic hood did come in handy more than i see this coming in handy.

Whats the rumored aegis doing again?

Psycannon:-We knew we would probably see two modes of shooting...honestly the AP3 rumor was ridiculous and this makes much more sense...rending...f*** yeah...especially when combined with the no LoS necessary rule

As long as they get lots of shots like heavy 4 with assault 2 then GKs have all tehy need vs heavy mech.
But that also implies a working shrouding power.
Your expensive and fragile purgation squads at the back will loose any shootout point to point if they havent got any night fighting power to hide behind.
Hopfully powers will be interchangeable for purgation squads, either shoot with no LOS or opt for shrouding but not both.

Mind Blades: my goodness...i cant believe some of these powers...

It all depends on who can get them, like GK libbies didnt have that one listed for example. Maybe its just a few ICs that are going to get that one.

Grey Knight Terminator-cant see using these when there are paladins...sorry

If GKs get stormshields they´d be SS/TH termies on crack, better point effectiveness then paladins.
Hammer terminators are as far as I still know the ultimate counter to paladins.

Razorback-New more survivable razor knight spam coming soon!

With a TL psycannon option please

2+ cover, Astral Aim, Might of Titan, Purgation Squad...ohhhh?

= overpriced through the roof most likely.

Like saying vanguard marines with jumppacks, stormshields, plasma pistols and lightning claws are "ohhhh".
Wonder why they are never ever seen...

If Grey Knights don't have anything to counter psychic defense (hoods, runes, SitW), then this codex will be completely ed. If Ld 9 on Justicars turns out to be true, then even a Psychic Hood nullifies Hammerhand on an equal roll.

This!

Psylencers really sound like an anti, anti psycher - wargear. Maybe it allows squads who get them to be unaffected by anti and/or psycher powers.