I think it's just Matt Ward that's the problem. Even then, not all his work is that bad - the standard Codex: Space Marines is a solid book without too much jackassery.
To me, the wrong direction is the continual re-invention of the wheel. People played the game in 3rd edition, a lot of them are still playing now. The codices didn't need massive changes, they needed minor changes and model updates. 4th edition wasn't an Alpha Test, it was a beta test for a balance update.
Yes, but new toys = more revenue. If I've been playing Grey Knights for 5 years, why would I want to buy anything new? Putting in Stormravens and Dreadknights and such gives me new stuff to buy, and therefore new revenue for GW.
It's a shame because just a few years ago they were more conservative with what they added to a codex. What did the Eldar codex add? It brought Harlequins back, and added in Autarchs. I don't know Eldar too well, but if I'm correct that's only two units, and one's a rare elite choice and the other is just an HQ. Yes there were resculpts and plastic versions of old metals, but no other new units added.
Wow, in addition to showing up and frying a unit with the Neural shredder, the Callidus assassins now gets to do MORE damage on the turn she arrives? Wow.
shealyr wrote:Geez. If the 2++ Warding Stave turns out to be true... I don't care if it does make then 80 pts per model, I will take Paladins with all 2+/2++/FNP with Draigo. That's just... Geez.
FM Ninja 048 wrote:shealyr, You spelt cheese wrong
Dat's wot I woz finkin'! Seriously.
now I'm gonna go trawl through it all and post a summary thread...
Troops/
Grey Knight Terminator Squad
Special Upgrade Character - Justicar Thawn
Grey Knights Strike Squad (the regular GK's)
Transports:
Rhino
Razorback
Chimera
Fast/
StormRaven
Heavy Support/
Purgation Squad
Dreadnought
Nemesis Dreadknight (MC)
Land Raider (and variants, including redeemer)
Grand Master rumoured to pick D3 units during deployment and giving them a special rule:
Makes them scoring (kinda neat for dread and or elite paladins)
Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
Makes them have counter attack USR.
Makes them Scout
All these units are affected by the one choice.
Terminators equipped with frag and krack grenades.
No drop pod. But GK strike squads are supposed to be able to take personal teleporters. This makes them jump infantry. And once per game it is rumored to allow them to make a 30" move, just move... not a on table deep strike. they Can shoot when they do this, but not charge.
Wargear that has been listed that rules are unknown:
Psyke-out grenades.
Brotherhood Banner (terminator and paladin squads)
Paladins = 2 wounded terminators (they can have an apothecary in the squad)
Purifiers = Grey Knights that have a lot of anti horde options, they are the ones with the power that will do a wound on every engaged enemy model in cc on 4+.
Grand Master rumoured to pick D3 units during deployment and giving them a special rule:
Makes them scoring (kinda neat for dread and or elite paladins)
Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
Makes them have counter attack USR.
Makes them Scout
All these units are affected by the one choice.
Terminators equipped with frag and krack grenades.
(On the question of Ordo Xenos and Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors Yes. they each have different wargear options, full of character if you ask me.
Vhalyar wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Seems like a boring foc, IMO. No bikes, no assault guys. They're like BA, except not nearly as mobile. Yeah, they have rhinos and land raiders, but they'll be sorely outclassed by the faster armies.
It seems like the usual army will be dreadnought spam with an OPhq, and terminators as troops. I say dreadnought spam because, well, the rest if the FOC I freaking lane
Oh, so you've read the codex. Care to enlighten us about the statlines and point costs?
Edit: Alright, to be more productive; all these are also from Marshal Augustine.
No restrictions of that nature when it comes to the henchmen.
The unit is 3-12 and does not take up an elite.
ArcoFlagelant - FNP, CCwpn
Banisher- Can take eviscerator, units of deamons within 6" of him re roll succesful inv saves (ala nullzone)
Crusader- PW, SShield
Deamonhost- Lots of crazy stuff. No time to elaborate now.
DeathcultAssassin- 5+ invul, 2 PW.
Servitor- cheap, come with HB or MMelta for free. Can upgrade to PC (up to 3) will mindlock if no inquisitor is present.
WeaponSmith- Mini obliterator ( can pick, lascannon, mmelta, hflamer) Also adds bonus to the unit roll d6 add +1 for each after first.
1- no effect
2- +12" to the range of all guns
3- armoursaves improved by one
4- all shooting weapons are rending.
5- all models gain 5+ invul
6- "the works" roll twice on the table, apply both results. No result can be taken twice.
Mystic- basically a living teleport homer.
Psyker- power is the blast weapon power form the IGPBS.
WarriorAcolyte- guardsman grunt.
The inquisitors are one statline. The different options are just wargear and upgrades that fit their role.
No wargear rules.
Special rules
ATSKNF Combat Squads
Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test) Units within 12" of a GK dreadnought targetted by powers psyker is at -4 "reinforced aegis"
Gk
44441418 3+ at 1/5 of 100pts each.
Termies
44441429 terminator armour. 200pts for 5...
Paladins are Ws5
(Replying to a question about Paladins)
55pts
apoth + 75. min squad size of 1.
GhostKnights are also in. (terminators with stealth that are upgrade retinue for one of the special characters, his rules are fun, for every wound he takes another terminator is added to the squad to "protect" him hehe.
Well for the base cost of 100pts you get 4 GK and a justicar. 2A and Ld9.
Basic Power is Hammerhand (+1 str in cc)
Also have warp quake. Any deepstriking unit that ends up within 12" of any GK strike unit will mishap. Also makes enemy teleport homers and beacons stop working.
IMO a 20pts space marine with a storm bolter (and whatever the force weapon is) is aweseome! and a lot cheaper than they used to be..
And the following is from Dragmire at HO.
Lord Kaldor Draigo 275 points
7 6 5 5 4 5 4 10 2+
Lord of titan: Pladin squads are troops
armed with the titan sword and SS as well as SB Frag, krak and psyk-out nades
3 psykic powers, Hamerhand, psyckic comunion and sactified flame
Was it mentioned that GK have PE against Deamons??
Storm raven has shadow skies: same and the blood angles one but squads with personal homes dont scatter
8 8 4 4 2 7 4 10 4+ Assassin stat line.
Vhalyar wrote:Marshal never said anything about wounding daemons though.
Careful about crossing rumors.
On that note, here's more:
Someone's Questions wrote: 1. Any army-wide GK special rules?
2. What's the stat-line of an inquisitor?
3. How is the anti-tank looking in this codex?
Marshal's Reply wrote:1- ATSKNF - Combat Squads
- The Aegis
- Psyker Pilots
- Brotherhood of psykers
- Psyker Mastery Levels
- Preferred Enemy Deamons
2. 443334310 4+ Stubborn, IC. (25pts)
3. So far i don't know... other than the inquisitorial henchmen mobs, and the dreadnoughts/landraiders/stormravens. Squad based AT seems limited.
Iago wrote:No ss (I have not seen any, other than crusaders henchmen)
No combi Weapons... their options are
Force Halberds
Nemesis Deamon Hammers
Pair of Nemesis Falcions
Nemesis Warding Stave
Psycannon
Incinerators
Psylencers
Apothecary
Banner of Brotherhood
Entire unit can have psybolt ammunition
Any model can make any weapon Master Crafted at +5 pts per weapon.
Iago wrote:Ok time for more:
GK psypowers:
Smite- See C:SM
Quicksilver- Begining of own movement. Unit within 6" gains I 10 till end of turn.
Warp-Rift- Flamer Template JOTWW
Might of Titan- Beggining of librarians assault phase. Unit within 6" gains +1 str and extra D6 armour pen vs vehicles. Bonus is cumulative with hammerhand (yes, that means that S6 2D6 armour pen GK's is a go!..)
The Shrouding- Opponents shooting phase. All units within 6" benefit from stealth. And have 6+ cover even if in the open (so 5+ in the open and 3+ in most other cases)
Mind Blades- Start of any assault phase. Pick enemy unit within 6", they loose 1 toughness for the remainder of the assault.
Vortex of Doom- see C:SM
Sanctuary- Any enemy assault phase. Enemy units assaulting any GK unit within 12" of the librarian treat all terrain (including open ground) and difficult and dangerous terrain.
The Summoning- Librarian movement. Pick a friendly non vehicle unit. Place them within 6" of the librarian using the DS rules.
oh wait, more you say!:
Librarian (mastery level 2) 150pts Can upgrade to level 3 for +50:
Each purchased power is +5 pts, but he comes with hammerhand for free.
Iago wrote:K Grand Master Powers (level1)
Hammerhand
Psychic communion - take test, if successfull GK player can modify reserve rolls by +1 or -1 and you can choose to modify after each roll.
Brother Captain (level 1)
Same
Brotherhood Champion (level 1)
Hammerhand
Heroic Sacrifice- during either players assault phase, when the "chaplain" is taken off as a casualty. Is passed, make one attack against any one model that he was in B2B with. If the attack hits, the model is also removed as a casualty with no saves... if the attack misses then no effect. Remember he is WS 7...
Terminators-
Hammerhand
Strike Squads-
Hammerhand
Warp Quake- Start of GK movement phase, lasts till GK start of next movement. All enemy teleport homers stop working, any enemy unit that deep strikes within 12" of the strike squad will suffer a mishap.
Purgation Squads-
HH Astral Aim- Shooting Phase, unit and attached characters may fire at any unit in range regardless of LOS. Target automatically gains 4+ cover that can't be modified.
Paladins:
HH Holocaust- 12" Str5 Ap- Large Blast
Purifier Squad:
HH Cleansing Flame- Start of the assault in any player turn. All enemy -models- that are a part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ before any blows are struck. Casualties count towards combat resolution.
Techmarine (mastery 1)
HH Reconstruction- Start of TM movement, may re roll any repair roll.
Rhino-Razorback/
Fortitude- if passed (at start of GK turn) Nullifies any shaken stunned results.
Dreadknight-
HH Holocaust
Dreadnoughts-
Fortitude (see rhino)
Land Raiders-
Fortitude (ibid)
Storm Raven same...
Brother Captain Stern Level 2:
HH Communion
Zone of Banishment: During his assault phase. All models friend and foe, within D6" (not stern), must take a strength test or be dragged into the warp... deamons re roll successful tests. These casualties do not count towards combat.
Inquisitor Corteaz (100pts) Mastery 2:
HH Sanctuary
Mind Blades
There, thats all I have.
Vhalyar wrote:And here's the "Stormtrooper" rumor for anyone who uses them:
Warrior acolyte:
replace laspistol and chainsword with one of...
bolt gun
storm bolter
hot shot lasgun
combi weapon
power sword/or plasma pistol
storm shield
power fist
Liking the no limits on the Henchmen Warband; makes them very easily customisable and can have a pretty good army made out of them. Valeria seems interesting too.
I think it's just Matt Ward that's the problem. Even then, not all his work is that bad - the standard Codex: Space Marines is a solid book without too much jackassery.
He scares me, he really does, he seems to know what can/can't fit and even able to grasp balance better than some, but he just seems to put these half ass deranged florishes on that don't fit balance, the background or the setting.
I think it's just Matt Ward that's the problem. Even then, not all his work is that bad - the standard Codex: Space Marines is a solid book without too much jackassery.
He scares me, he really does, he seems to know what can/can't fit and even able to grasp balance better than some, but he just seems to put these half ass deranged florishes on that don't fit balance, the background or the setting.
I'm a sad bear :(
true. Ward's the main problemo. If kelly did it, it'd be decent. Same with cruddance.
I just think ward's the goto of the codex world, but more believable.
The level of rediculousness that it seems that we'll be getting makes me feel bad that my favourite faction is getting an update at all. It's like they're trying to intentionally break the game.
I really hope the codex is balanced. Knowing Ward, that won't be the case, but I can only hope. I love the Grey Knights, I love the Inquisition, and I don't want it ruined by some broken and overpowered rules that make it a crashing bore to play. What's more, I'm hoping desperatley and probably in vain that the fluff won't be ruined. Bug judging from Ward's track record, that's not likely.
Is going? IMO its been there for a while. I wont get into my issues with 5th ed, but there are a good number. As for thier minis...hit or miss, but Ill say more hit than miss. The dreadknight is a good example of miss. Most of the DE line is a hit, Id imagine the GKPA & GKT will be as well.
Oh, and that gobo spider is so awesome I may get one just to build and paint it...without the gobos and howdah however.
We dont need this *remove from play* stuff within 40k. Its becoming a game of cancel this out to cancel this out to cancel this out to remove this from canceling the removal of this....cancellation!
ColdSadHungry wrote:Ok but they're definitely different to the current colour scheme - maybe not dark blue but my point still stands.
I can't say I've seen many official Grey Knight vehicles; the only ones I can remember is a lone Grey Knight Dreadnought and just the sides of a GK Land Raider in the current codex, but those seem to be the same blueish grey metallic as the Storm Raven. Have any other pictures?
They all seem to be silver as usual. The blueish tone is only on the one picture and of every other picture of the same models they're silver...
Brother SRM wrote:
Jaon wrote:40k is going in a horrible direction.
I think it's just Matt Ward that's the problem. Even then, not all his work is that bad - the standard Codex: Space Marines is a solid book without too much jackassery.
I don't think it's just Matt Ward personally, but yeah, it does seem to be going a bit downhill...
I do agree with you on the Space Marine Codex (except for Vulkans too OTT) and despite its many flaws, the BA Codex allows a wide variety of builds and personality.
I'm still going to take many of these rumours with a pinch of salt personally, I don't think even GW would allow 2++ for no downside.
Then again, I wonder what the fluff of this Codex will be?
ductvader wrote:What's the deal with the ghost knight character?...I presume the knights vanish after he dies?
Correct. However, as he is W4 and is NOT an IC (treated as an upgrade character), it'll be pretty rare he dies before the squad.
Vhalyar wrote:
Jaon wrote:And I thought Vindicares had always been rumoured to be 0-3 elite slot? or has it changed to 0-1 no slot?
The B&C guy says that they take up a slot and are each 0-1. It's possible that there's some kind of Inquisitor gimmick that he missed, but that seems doubtful.
The info I have treats them as a normal elites choice. I.e. 0-3 and taking a slot.
UltraPrime wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:As long as we get one or two more veichles that only Inqusitors can take and a decent amount of fluff, then I'll be happy.
The Inquisitorial Warband should be good enough to make an Inquisition-only army viable.
Not if they don't take up a Troops slot, you will still need 2 'normal' choices.
My reading of the rule says this is correct. Henchmen do not take an FOC slot. Inq C does not remove that restriction.
I will say that most of the info being posted lately looks the same as the info I have, which I believe to be an early playtest version. I think it very likely that stuff has changed, as some things are simply too good for what they cost relative to other units and wargear. A few things are either showing up from a different source or are made up, namely the effects of wargear.
Mr Hyena wrote:As long as we get one or two more veichles that only Inqusitors can take and a decent amount of fluff, then I'll be happy.
The Inquisitorial Warband should be good enough to make an Inquisition-only army viable.
Not if they don't take up a Troops slot, you will still need 2 'normal' choices.
Wow.
Dammit...thats so crap...Ordo Xenos will be forced to take Grey Knights if theres no basic Inquisitorial troop that takes up a slot. Thats gonna look weird as hell.
I think it's just Matt Ward that's the problem. Even then, not all his work is that bad - the standard Codex: Space Marines is a solid book without too much jackassery.
He scares me, he really does, he seems to know what can/can't fit and even able to grasp balance better than some, but he just seems to put these half ass deranged florishes on that don't fit balance, the background or the setting.
I'm a sad bear :(
Puscifer wrote:But isn't this how powerful GK should be???
Marines in general have always been uber in the fluff and GK are the epitome of Astartes - the best, the meanest, the last line of defence.
there's a fine line between powerful and OP, awesome and ridiculous, and fun and cheesy. BA overstepped that, as did SW. DE was on the spot, as was SM, orks and IG.
ward did a good job on C:SM, but I feel it's gone to his head and he's going the way of the Goto. I just hope that C:GK will be as fun, balanced-ish and all-round-ish as C:SM.
But looking at armoured armoured armoured armour, 2+/4++ FNP 2-wound force-weapon wielding terminators and PAGK being 4 pts more than regular SM, but with +1WS, power weapons, storm bolters and extra rules, I can't see it happening.
Mr Hyena wrote:As long as we get one or two more veichles that only Inqusitors can take and a decent amount of fluff, then I'll be happy.
The Inquisitorial Warband should be good enough to make an Inquisition-only army viable.
Not if they don't take up a Troops slot, you will still need 2 'normal' choices.
Wow.
Dammit...thats so crap...Ordo Xenos will be forced to take Grey Knights if theres no basic Inquisitorial troop that takes up a slot. Thats gonna look weird as hell.
Meh, just convert DW marines and use them instead. Not a big deal imo.
Mr Hyena wrote:Dammit...thats so crap...Ordo Xenos will be forced to take Grey Knights if theres no basic Inquisitorial troop that takes up a slot. Thats gonna look weird as hell.
Don't worry. If you take Coteaz you can have them as a proper army.
You know, considering everything in the damn army counts as a psyker, can you imagine what the Celexus could possibly do at +2 shots per psyker within 12? You could have a 'lol' Str. 5 AP1 Assault 12 gun...
Mr Hyena wrote:Dammit...thats so crap...Ordo Xenos will be forced to take Grey Knights if theres no basic Inquisitorial troop that takes up a slot. Thats gonna look weird as hell.
Don't worry. If you take Coteaz you can have them as a proper army.
What fun.
Eh; I'll do Coteaz as a 'Counts As' Ordo Xenos/Hereticus Inquisitor. Does he allow them to take slots so I don't need to take Grey Knights? (I'd only take GK if my HQ was a Ordo Malleus Inquisitor)
**Disclaimer**The following is from the perspective of someone who's been playing in tournaments since 2nd edition and who's majority of yearly games are tournament centric with the exclusion of some campaign fun amongst friends**
First off I'm not thinking a lot of you complaining about the balance of 40k in 5th are actually playing that much. Necrons are currently the only book that has actual problems being competitive once this GK book hits. 40k has actually never been better balanced in the last 4 editions.
Second off I actually think that other than Ward's stupid naming habits we've got the best group of codex writers 40k has ever had. Kelly is a bit of a standout but that's pretty much because of his fluff not his rules. Every codex released in 5th (and some late 4th) have multiple solid and fun builds. All of them are competitive. The cries of codex creep are getting more than a bit old. This isn't 3rd edition anymore or even 4th before the blanding hit.
Third I'm stoked about these rumours. I'm sure it'll all balance out appropriately as every other codex has thus far that looked insane in the rumour thread. But I'm excited that GK's will be playable for the first time in almost a decade (they weren't really playable when then came out but it's gotten far worse). I sold my GK's when the first whisper of this codex got solid last year and I've been itching to pick up an entire new force of plastic.
Dreadknight is interesting in the photo but I love the concept. New plastic GK's and GKT's makes me smile. Some of the rumours seem over the top but honestly you need to see the way they break down in the codex. DE sounded ridiculous too until people actually got the book.
So keep the rumours coming. I can't wait for March when the black boxes hit stores.
Sidenote: What would be wrong with using Codex: GK to represent a pre-heresy Thousand Sons army? I think it actually fits pretty darn well.
Hulksmash wrote:Sidenote: What would be wrong with using Codex: GK to represent a pre-heresy Thousand Sons army? I think it actually fits pretty darn well.
I think it's less a problem with using a GK Codex to rep 1KSons, and more of it being yet another example of just how God-awful the 'Chaos' Codex is at representing actual Chaos armies.
Hulksmash wrote:**Disclaimer**The following is from the perspective of someone who's been playing in tournaments since 2nd edition and who's majority of yearly games are tournament centric with the exclusion of some campaign fun amongst friends**
I've been playing the same amount of time, so I'd like to respond to your post in kind.
Hulksmash wrote:First off I'm not thinking a lot of you complaining about the balance of 40k in 5th are actually playing that much. Necrons are currently the only book that has actual problems being competitive once this GK book hits. 40k has actually never been better balanced in the last 4 editions.
I think this missed the point a bit. I don't think people are complaining about balance that much (I wasn't at least), but more about the direction that these rules are taking. The game is starting to feel like the next army is built to beat all other codicies before it. It's like GW has given Matt Ward creative license to add in anything he pleases, no matter how silly it might sound. And I'm with Jaon in that we don't need all these removes from play if you roll under your wounds plus half of your age minus your shoe size. I mean, it gets cumbersome. Pretty soon, we're going to have a codex that carries only Removes From Play weapons. Wraithguard anyone? /hyperbole off
Balance isn't an issue, I don't believe. So we're in agreement there. But the codices are being chocked full of OTT stuff that people don't want or use. It started with Magna-grapples and deep-striking land raiders. Now it's getting into units that will be used: 2+/2++ FNP, 2 wound terminators. Now it's starting to become something that is not only silly, but will start to affect army composition and the way that you play.
Hulksmash wrote:Second off I actually think that other than Ward's stupid naming habits we've got the best group of codex writers 40k has ever had. Kelly is a bit of a standout but that's pretty much because of his fluff not his rules. Every codex released in 5th (and some late 4th) have multiple solid and fun builds. All of them are competitive. The cries of codex creep are getting more than a bit old. This isn't 3rd edition anymore or even 4th before the blanding hit.
I disagree. It sounds like the only way you're looking at the codices are from a tournament goers standpoint. The reason that the 4th Ed. codices worked well is because they streamlined the rules. I hate having to flip to three different pages to find out what one piece of wargear does. Now, I think that the first batch of 5th Ed. codices are great - Wolves started to edge a bit close to the codex creep line, but then Blood Angels stepped over it, DE moved a bit past to compensate and now GK sound really OTT (from rumors, of course). You may be sick of the codex creep talk, but it's there and you have to admit that it is, otherwise you're just being naive. I notice codex creep not because of whining about how powerful someone is - I don't really care about that, I'll find a way to beat them - but I don't like the direction these rules are taking. I am in fear of Matt Ward's next codex - truthfully. He's going to have to try to best himself like he's done twice before. Guess we'll have marines with a 1+/1++ save with FNP that pilot a Dreadnought that counts as scoring and can fire off psychic blasts. Funny thing is, remove the nonsense about 1+/1++ and we're not far from that now.
Hulksmash wrote:Third I'm stoked about these rumours. I'm sure it'll all balance out appropriately as every other codex has thus far that looked insane in the rumour thread.
puma713 wrote:I disagree. It sounds like the only way you're looking at the codices are from a tournament goers standpoint. The reason that the 4th Ed. codices worked well is because they streamlined the rules. I hate having to flip to three different pages to find out what one piece of wargear does. Now, I think that the first batch of 5th Ed. codices are great - Wolves started to edge a bit close to the codex creep line, but then Blood Angels stepped over it, DE moved a bit past to compensate and now GK sound really OTT (from rumors, of course). You may be sick of the codex creep talk, but it's there and you have to admit that it is, otherwise you're just being naive. I notice codex creep not because of whining about how powerful someone is - I don't really care about that, I'll find a way to beat them - but I don't like the direction these rules are taking. I am in fear of Matt Ward's next codex - truthfully. He's going to have to try to best himself like he's done twice before. Guess we'll have marines with a 1+/1++ save with FNP that pilot a Dreadnought that counts as scoring and can fire off psychic blasts. Funny thing is, remove the nonsense about 1+/1++ and we're not far from that now.
Blood Angels IMBA?!?!?!?!?! ya right dude they don't even win that many events and I have curb stomped my fair share of them there just not I'm sure anyone who actually plays on a regular basis would agree. DE arn't even close to broken they bounce off certian armies. The only 2 codexes out there that are slightly over done are Wolves and IG you can throw a fit all you want but its true every codex besides them have been appropriatly costed and well done.
Also why are you complaining about A) a Dreadnaught that still dies to a missle launcher all the same and B) Rumors of a 2++ unit? I haven't even seen someone confirm that to be true its always a "this might be it" Even so there gonna be just like nob bikers or Jugs or Thunder cav all allocated out execpt these guys will probly come base 60+ points need to upgrade for the better invuln for prob 15 or 20 more then all the weapons so by the time your done you end up with a unit of 5 guys all 100+ points that arent immune to ID even with a 2+ these guys are not immune to volume of fire and are just gonna be a tough unit you need to focus on. Really by the time your done equiping this unit plus giving it a raider to get the enemy in plus probly bringing along the character to make them troops or just a GM it'll probly run you 1000 points for this unit really.
The biggest problem with 5th is the release schedule.
SM- Decent army, decent rules, lots of special character shennanigans, for super powers.
IG: Flying boxes of DOOM!
SW: Moar Marines! With super powers!
Tyranids: Underpowered Xenos Codex v3.
BA: Moar Marines! With More Superpowers! And their own flying boxes of DOOM!
Dark Eldar: Pretty Good Xenos Release V2
Grey Knights: MOAR MARINES! WITH MOAR SUPER POWERS! AND MOAR FLYING BOXES! ZZAP! ZZAP!
The 50% marines release schedule is incredibly boring. And each Marine release gets more and more OTT ridiculous. I love the SM codex and concept, but each variant chapter just gets worse and worse. Grey Knights are no exception, and I am still firmly of the belief that their introduction as a standalone force in 3rd was a huge error. (along with BT in 4th. And while I'm at it, SW and BA/DA in 2nd)
puma713 wrote:I disagree. It sounds like the only way you're looking at the codices are from a tournament goers standpoint. The reason that the 4th Ed. codices worked well is because they streamlined the rules. I hate having to flip to three different pages to find out what one piece of wargear does. Now, I think that the first batch of 5th Ed. codices are great - Wolves started to edge a bit close to the codex creep line, but then Blood Angels stepped over it, DE moved a bit past to compensate and now GK sound really OTT (from rumors, of course). You may be sick of the codex creep talk, but it's there and you have to admit that it is, otherwise you're just being naive. I notice codex creep not because of whining about how powerful someone is - I don't really care about that, I'll find a way to beat them - but I don't like the direction these rules are taking. I am in fear of Matt Ward's next codex - truthfully. He's going to have to try to best himself like he's done twice before. Guess we'll have marines with a 1+/1++ save with FNP that pilot a Dreadnought that counts as scoring and can fire off psychic blasts. Funny thing is, remove the nonsense about 1+/1++ and we're not far from that now.
Blood Angels IMBA?!?!?!?!?! ya right dude they don't even win that many events and I have curb stomped my fair share of them there just not I'm sure anyone who actually plays on a regular basis would agree. DE arn't even close to broken they bounce off certian armies. The only 2 codexes out there that are slightly over done are Wolves and IG you can throw a fit all you want but its true every codex besides them have been appropriatly costed and well done.
First, set down the coffee. Second, reread my post above. I didn't say that they aren't "balanced" - I agreed with Hulksmash in that 5th Ed. codices are balanced, for the most part. I was talking about Codex Composition. How it is written, what is added to it, all the OTT things that could be just as easily left out.
CajunMan550 wrote:Also why are you complaining about A) a Dreadnaught that still dies to a missle launcher all the same and B) Rumors of a 2++ unit? I haven't even seen someone confirm that to be true its always a "this might be it" Even so there gonna be just like nob bikers or Jugs or Thunder cav all allocated out execpt these guys will probly come base 60+ points need to upgrade for the better invuln for prob 15 or 20 more then all the weapons so by the time your done you end up with a unit of 5 guys all 100+ points that arent immune to ID even with a 2+ these guys are not immune to volume of fire and are just gonna be a tough unit you need to focus on. Really by the time your done equiping this unit plus giving it a raider to get the enemy in plus probly bringing along the character to make them troops or just a GM it'll probly run you 1000 points for this unit really.
And third, punctuation. It helps in a forum-communication type setting. Once again, since I'm forced to repeat myself - was I complaining about their on-the-field play? No. I was complaining about the look and the style of Codex that has started to push its way into 40K. I don't agree with it. And now, with GK (if the rumors are true), this 'style' will start pushing its way onto the field.
And about BA and DE - just because someone at the venues you attend doesn't win with them and that you've "curbstomped" your fair share of them doesn't mean that no one wins with them. Unless you believe that whatever happens in your little area is a microcosm of what is actually happening in the rest of the world. But you don't make that mistake, do you? And I do play on a regular basis, but I don't agree with you - so. . .sweeping generalizations are bad too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote:The biggest problem with 5th is the release schedule.
SM- Decent army, decent rules, lots of special character shennanigans, for super powers.
IG: Flying boxes of DOOM!
SW: Moar Marines! With super powers!
Tyranids: Underpowered Xenos Codex v3.
BA: Moar Marines! With More Superpowers! And their own flying boxes of DOOM!
Dark Eldar: Pretty Good Xenos Release V2
Grey Knights: MOAR MARINES! WITH MOAR SUPER POWERS! AND MOAR FLYING BOXES! ZZAP! ZZAP!
Bingo. This is my point. And written in an easier format for CajunMan550.
Point taken, and I agree that the chaos codex is bland.
@Puma
I'm glad we agree the books are balanced. The BA's are a solid codex but in zero ways over the top. From a fluff standpoint it probably is I'll grant you that. I actually like the new codex style but I do think they could be a bit more organized. But flipping thru the book tends to make you look at more stuff and get more ideas. I see it as another means of advertising within a product but that's probably just me
And 4th edition was hideous for GW. A ton of people dropped during the bland and boring days of 4th. I manage to make it till 9 months before 5th before hanging up 4th edition as it was a solid numbers game that wasn't hard to figure out. 5th Edition fixed that and so are the codexes. Sidenote, most of the previous codex model lines are already out so GW does have to create new units to create new models to give us something to buy. That's why you're seeing such a rise in new units in codexes.
@Warboss
While I disagree with your assertion that Nids are underpowered I can understand your issues with the release cycle. But power armor sells. I think this is the first time ever honestly that the variant chapters have been getting books that deserve to be books. They are actually making them variants which is important.
And for every person like you that thinks marine releases are boring there is one like me that gets excited. And I don't think any of them have become truly OTT ridiculous unless you're coming from a fluff perspective then I'll grant you some of the stuff has gotten a little silly.
Oh, I am coming from a fluff perspective. I'll grant, the game play side of things seems to be doing fairly well, especially if you like mechanised forces.
I also understand that power armour sells, but sadly, it doesn't sell much to me.
Awesome Da Boss. Then I absolutely see your issues
I've just decided fluff will change and don't sweat it much. I love the background and as long as they don't do anything insane with it it probably won't even register with me to be honest. And I've got a pretty far out definition of insane
I have zero problem with people who dislike the new codexes fluffwise. My only issues is with people screaming about brokeness and cheese on the game-play side of it.
puma713 wrote:
First, set down the coffee. Second, reread my post above. I didn't say that they aren't "balanced" - I agreed with Hulksmash in that 5th Ed. codices are balanced, for the most part. I was talking about Codex Composition. How it is written, what is added to it, all the OTT things that could be just as easily left out.
mmmhhmmm
puma713 wrote:
And third, punctuation. It helps in a forum-communication type setting.
Not what we are talking about you can read it just fine.
puma713 wrote:
Once again, since I'm forced to repeat myself - was I complaining about their on-the-field play? No. I was complaining about the look and the style of Codex that has started to push its way into 40K. I don't agree with it. And now, with GK (if the rumors are true), this 'style' will start pushing its way onto the field.
You were absolutly complaining about on field play using Sweeping generalizations saying no one uses things like magna grapples and DSing land raider cus whatever happens in your little area is a microcosm of what is actually happening in the rest of the world right? My point is codexes are not as you say "being chocked filled with OTT stuff." Your complaining to complain about nothing congrats.
puma713 wrote:And about BA and DE - just because someone at the venues you attend doesn't win with them and that you've "curbstomped" your fair share of them doesn't mean that no one wins with them. Unless you believe that whatever happens in your little area is a microcosm of what is actually happening in the rest of the world. But you don't make that mistake, do you? And I do play on a regular basis, but I don't agree with you - so. . .sweeping generalizations are bad too.
Besides me saying I play them and win against them where in that post did I say anything about my local area this holds true anyhere in any GT or RTT there are tough builds of everything but they are not dominating anything.
puma713 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote:The biggest problem with 5th is the release schedule.
SM- Decent army, decent rules, lots of special character shennanigans, for super powers.
IG: Flying boxes of DOOM!
SW: Moar Marines! With super powers!
Tyranids: Underpowered Xenos Codex v3.
BA: Moar Marines! With More Superpowers! And their own flying boxes of DOOM!
Dark Eldar: Pretty Good Xenos Release V2
Grey Knights: MOAR MARINES! WITH MOAR SUPER POWERS! AND MOAR FLYING BOXES! ZZAP! ZZAP!
Bingo. This is my point. And written in an easier format for CajunMan550.
Really? your complaining about the release schedual now. You know why they do it like that? Because Marines are the MOST popular armies by FAR. They make profit, they release new rules and units everyone wins. Sucks for some of the other races but not everyone plays those but the majority of those people also own Marines. Also the descriptions are really bad btw
Actually they're pretty much spot on, bar spelling.
The reason Marines sell so well is that GW keeps supporting them so much. If they picked another codex when it all began and gave them half the codecii, ten times the vehicles and the most powerful characters for cheaper with the best armour and gear, then the majority would be playing that race instead.
A question:
Does any model outside of a Marine codex have a 2+/3++ save? Even GODS don't have that good a save
Does any other race have a statine on the basic trooper that is 4 on everything but wounds, ld and attacks when the baseline for the system is supposedly 3? If there is one i'll happily concede this
Can anyone else autorally from being broken 'just because' even if someone else's base LD is higher and they are supposedly incapable of emotion?
Does anyone else have a tank with the best armour in the game all round , that can be deeptstruck sometimes, fire at two different targets (and one even after being shaken and stunned) and allow the cargo to assault after a full move.
THATS why people play marines. They're touted as being the 'best' army, and with rules to match.
Now imagine that it was the Eldar or the Guard that got this level of loving (though the guard have their own attraction- stoopid-lots of uber tanks ) and the marines got perhaps 1 troop type (tacticals) , 3 elite types (assault marines, terminators (the regular 2+5++ ones no-one uses these days) and some other non-uber option, 3 tanks (predator, whirlwind,vindicator with a s 9, ap 3 blast perhaps) and bikes and basic speeders as fast. Then add a pretty boring, bland codex with few options in which you don't win every battle with a few guys (or even one guy) holding off armies.
Which would you play? If you would play Marines nonetheless you're a dedicated player who will play a subpar army, and I salute you.
(NB before the flamewar begins (and i shrug into my NBC/Fire retardant coveralls ) i'm not recommending Marines should be like this. I actually don't mind marines being popular, but they're a little too 'OMG my Marines ROCK, and your army SUCKS!' right now...)
puma713 wrote:
Once again, since I'm forced to repeat myself - was I complaining about their on-the-field play? No. I was complaining about the look and the style of Codex that has started to push its way into 40K. I don't agree with it. And now, with GK (if the rumors are true), this 'style' will start pushing its way onto the field.
You were absolutly complaining about on field play using Sweeping generalizations saying no one uses things like magna grapples and DSing land raider cus whatever happens in your little area is a microcosm of what is actually happening in the rest of the world right? My point is codexes are not as you say "being chocked filled with OTT stuff." Your complaining to complain about nothing congrats.
This will be my last post on the subject because this is a News and Rumors thread and our disagreement is neither News nor Rumor. However, I wasn't not complaining about use on the field. I wasn't saying, "ZOMG! Magna-grapples are so over-powered because dreadnoughts use them to reel me in every game I play!!!11oneone11!!!" I was saying that Magna-grapples are ridiculous because they seem like a "You know what would be cool?" moment in the codex. And those moments are starting to flood in. You know what would be cool? A deep-striking land raider! Practical? No. Even good, game-wise? No. Then why? Because it would be cool, silly! I could go on with these "moments" in the current codices, but I won't. They started showing up in SW (Jaws of the World Wolf) and everyone was agasp. Then, they made their presence felt in the BA codex and everyone was like, "WTF?" Then, DE got a bunch of arcane items that do all sorts of crazy things. Now, you get a GK codex that not only tops that (supposedly) but has an Inquisitor Lord that can do all of those things too! Because she looted a dark eldar archon, ya know. Wouldn't that be cool!?! (I know she studies Xenos and Dark Eldar in particular, but still. . .)
CajunMan550 wrote:
puma713 wrote:And about BA and DE - just because someone at the venues you attend doesn't win with them and that you've "curbstomped" your fair share of them doesn't mean that no one wins with them. Unless you believe that whatever happens in your little area is a microcosm of what is actually happening in the rest of the world. But you don't make that mistake, do you? And I do play on a regular basis, but I don't agree with you - so. . .sweeping generalizations are bad too.
Besides me saying I play them and win against them where in that post did I say anything about my local area this holds true anyhere in any GT or RTT there are tough builds of everything but they are not dominating anything.
Man. How do you get out to all the GTs and RTTs across the country and worldwide week-in and week-out? Not only would that be expensive, but I would be exhausted! /sarcasm
CajunMan550 wrote:
puma713 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote:The biggest problem with 5th is the release schedule.
SM- Decent army, decent rules, lots of special character shennanigans, for super powers.
IG: Flying boxes of DOOM!
SW: Moar Marines! With super powers!
Tyranids: Underpowered Xenos Codex v3.
BA: Moar Marines! With More Superpowers! And their own flying boxes of DOOM!
Dark Eldar: Pretty Good Xenos Release V2
Grey Knights: MOAR MARINES! WITH MOAR SUPER POWERS! AND MOAR FLYING BOXES! ZZAP! ZZAP!
Bingo. This is my point. And written in an easier format for CajunMan550.
Really? your complaining about the release schedual now. You know why they do it like that? Because Marines are the MOST popular armies by FAR. They make profit, they release new rules and units everyone wins. Sucks for some of the other races but not everyone plays those but the majority of those people also own Marines. Also the descriptions are really bad btw
No, I should have deleted the first line of his post. I wasn't talking about the release schedule. I was referring to his interpretation of the releases themselves.
Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread. I'm done. In short, I just hope this trend doesn't continue.
Ascalam wrote:
Does any other race have a statine on the basic trooper that is 4 on everything but wounds, ld and attacks when the baseline for the system is supposedly 3? If there is one i'll happily concede this
Can anyone else autorally from being broken 'just because' even if someone else's base LD is higher and they are supposedly incapable of emotion?
Does anyone else have a tank with the best armour in the game all round , that can be deeptstruck sometimes, fire at two different targets (and one even after being shaken and stunned) and allow the cargo to assault after a full move.
Necrons?
A monolith is better than a land raider and necron warriors are all 4s.
Mr Hyena wrote:To reiterate an earlier question; does Coteaz's ability to allow Inquisitorial Mobs as troops count as a choice so no Grey Knights need to be taken?
A monolith is better than a land raider and necron warriors are all 4s. '
Necron warriors are I 2, not 4. Trust me, it REALLY makes a difference.
Monoliths come close, but don't fill all the criteria i listed for the Landraider. I'd say they're a smidgen tougher to kill than a Landraider, but they have massive drag factor to balance that.
'Does anyone else have a tank with the best armour in the game all round , that can be deeptstruck sometimes, fire at two different targets (and one even after being shaken and stunned) and allow the cargo to assault after a full move. '
They can be deepstruck. They do have the good armour.
They also have a max move of 6', can't carry troops (they can teleport them, but the troops are still footslogging and vulnerable) and while they can fire at all targets within 12'', it's with weak guns, not twin-linked lascannons at 36''. You got me on that one though. I wasn't thinking of the Monolith at the time i posted (stupid caffiene addiction- needed my fix).
I will grant you the Monolith comes close, as good tanks go, but the rest of the Necron army is woefully behind the Marines in terms of potency and options.
I'm kindof hoping the rumors of the Necronmancer (daft name if true) are true, so that we can have Necronmancer vs Dreadknight smackdowns a la Robot Jox..
just figured I'd post them further up the thread so dakka won't have to trawl back to take a look.
that, and WTF is this thing meant to fight?!
PAGK ->Lesser daemons
TAGK ->average daemons (like bloodcrushers)
brother-captain ->greater daemons
grand master -> daemon lords
TAGK the size of a bloody trygon -> ?!
I would like to know what those spine things are coming from the backpacks of the PA greyknights, and also are they armed with bolters, or is that a psycannon/incinerator in one squad (can't remember if they could do that in the old dex
just figured I'd post them further up the thread so dakka won't have to trawl back to take a look.
that, and WTF is this thing meant to fight?!
PAGK ->Lesser daemons
TAGK ->average daemons (like bloodcrushers)
brother-captain ->greater daemons
grand master -> daemon lords
TAGK the size of a bloody trygon -> ?!
I would like to know what those spine things are coming from the backpacks of the PA greyknights, and also are they armed with bolters, or is that a psycannon/incinerator in one squad (can't remember if they could do that in the old dex
I dunno, what spine things?
storm bolters, some TAGK can have psycannons or incinerators (on one arm), working like normal termie wargear upgrades.
I'm kindof hoping the rumors of the Necronmancer (daft name if true) are true, so that we can have Necronmancer vs Dreadknight smackdowns a la Robot Jox..
I'm really hoping someone does a golden demon entry with the Necronmancer and the Dreadknight going at it rock em, sock em robot style with one's head flying up on springs.
yeah, if you look closely at the PA greyknight on the far right, he has like two antenna things coming from his backpack but it also looks like he's holding a bolter
As I have not read all 32 Pages in the forum, being new and all that stuff, has there been any rumour’s of GW or Forge world doing any thunder wolf Calvary models in the future?
Cainnech21 wrote:As I have not read all 32 Pages in the forum, being new and all that stuff, has there been any rumour’s of GW or Forge world doing any thunder wolf Calvary models in the future?
why would they do thunderwolves for a grey knight release? to answer your question overall, no... no news at all so far. there is a space wolf centric imperial armour book coming out next and they concievably have the chance to but no actual news of it just yet.
Mr Hyena wrote:To reiterate an earlier question; does Coteaz's ability to allow Inquisitorial Mobs as troops count as a choice so no Grey Knights need to be taken?
Yes
Fantastic. I was worried there. I have nothing against Grey Knights; I just feel they should stay as part of Ordo Malleus and not Ordo Hereticus or Ordo Xenos.
Yeah maybe the personal teleporter, or additional parts for showing you are fielding them as the deepstriking unit of PA greyknights so your opponent knows there a fast attack choice rather than troops to stop arguments in objective holding games or something like that
When people try to "break" this codex...I think they're going to settle on psycannons...I am glad I have a dozen or so at the moment but I think I am going to have to double that in case I have a chance to bring these guys to ardboyz...
The codex doesn't seem overpowered really...people are just looking at all the options and putting it into one cohesive army on the table in front of them...if you laid out everything in the IG army and acted like you could field it all in 2000 points then that would seem ridiculous as well. The major reason I am happy for my codex being updated...finally...is having more options. I have been playing GKs for quite a while now and I haven't really had that hard a time winning games (you just have to play...carefully) but I have been a tad bored when my only options really consist of PAGK, PAGK that teleport but dont score, and PAGK that can take heavy weapons...but none of which have anything essentially different otherwise.
Simply adding the stormraven and purifiers is a good enough addition for me. And I love that you can make a more human army with the elitest GKs there to pick up the slack where needed...
As for the psychic everything content of the army...I think people are going to have to learn to treat them a lot more like IG orders...use them if you can but dont plan on them being there.
Can anyone give an accurate description of the psylencer please?
As for the Paladins...awesome yes...overpowered no...it'll cost you half the army...and be well worth it...but you pigeonhole your abilities and reactions in taking such deathstars like the Loganwing.
Hulksmash wrote:Sidenote: What would be wrong with using Codex: GK to represent a pre-heresy Thousand Sons army? I think it actually fits pretty darn well.
I think it's less a problem with using a GK Codex to rep 1KSons, and more of it being yet another example of just how God-awful the 'Chaos' Codex is at representing actual Chaos armies.
Hulksmash wrote:Sidenote: What would be wrong with using Codex: GK to represent a pre-heresy Thousand Sons army? I think it actually fits pretty darn well.
I think it's less a problem with using a GK Codex to rep 1KSons, and more of it being yet another example of just how God-awful the 'Chaos' Codex is at representing actual Chaos armies.
AAHAHAHHHAHAH!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Um on the antennae things Im pretty sure those are either the top of a personal teleporter or....katanas.
Maybe Nemesis Falchions sheathed on his back? *wishlists*
puma713 wrote:Any word on whether or not Psycannons still ignore Invul?
I know it was sort of a foregone conclusion, but no one has mentioned it (unless I've missed it), but they've mentioned an altered profile.
I don't have access to wargear descriptions, but the stats I'm seeing other people describe do not mention ignoring ++ saves. I would hazard that they no longer ignore ++ saves. To add to this speculation, I will say that there are a couple units that have a special rule that force nearby daemons to reroll invulnerable saves. They may be intended to replaced the ++ save-ignoring rules of the psycannon and incinerator.
Mr Hyena wrote:To reiterate an earlier question; does Coteaz's ability to allow Inquisitorial Mobs as troops count as a choice so no Grey Knights need to be taken?
As I said earlier, the wording I see still requires two PAGK or GKT squads to fill your troop slots.
Brother SRM wrote:
Ascalam wrote:I have a Necromunda Arbites squad i love, with the big blocky riot guns..
Arbites would be a nice addition to the codex, but other than a headnod in Witchhunters so far I doubt that'll make it into an official codex :(
That's why you get Inquisitorial henchmen with carapace armor, shotguns, and bolters!
No shotguns in the warrior equipment list, unfortunately.
So, what's the best unit anyone can think of for a henchman mob? They've not got the best stat line but can be psykers, a unit of lascannons or multi meltas. A dozen power sword wielding, storm shield toting, power armour wearing crusaders can be taken. Tonnes of death cult assassins, the list goes on.
I don't have much experience with the current inquisitor's retinue but the new stuff seems like we can put together a really interesting unit. Based on what we've heard so far, what does Dakka think the most powerful/useful henchmen unit you could make is?
I think the basic, unupgraded warrior is going to be the most used member of the squad. Everything is so fragile you'll need bullet catchers to protect the damage dealers.
As I said earlier, the wording I see still requires two PAGK or GKT squads to fill your troop slots.
From what H.B.M.C says; theres no requirement for PAGK or GKT squads to fill the troop slots. (Which makes sense honestly; why would an Ordo Xenos need Grey Knights?)
So, what's the best unit anyone can think of for a henchman mob? They've not got the best stat line but can be psykers, a unit of lascannons or multi meltas. A dozen power sword wielding, storm shield toting, power armour wearing crusaders can be taken. Tonnes of death cult assassins, the list goes on.
Bolter and power armour plus a weaponsmith or two in the unit to make them all 2+ save sounds nice.
ColdSadHungry wrote:But you can't really make a non GK army can you? You can only have 12 henchmen per squad. How many of those squads will we be able to take?
Coteaz's rule allows you to take them as a Troop Choice. So you can field as many as you want.
ColdSadHungry wrote:But you can't really make a non GK army can you? You can only have 12 henchmen per squad. How many of those squads will we be able to take?
Coteaz's rule allows you to take them as a Troop Choice. So you can field as many as you want.
If by "as many as you want", you mean up to 6, then yes.
ColdSadHungry wrote:But you can't really make a non GK army can you? You can only have 12 henchmen per squad. How many of those squads will we be able to take?
Coteaz's rule allows you to take them as a Troop Choice. So you can field as many as you want.
Henchmen to not use FOC slots. Coteaz does not alter this fact. It does mean that you could literally field as many henchmen units as you want with him in your army, though.
As I've said before, my source may well be outdated. However, as nearly everything posted here appears to be agreeing with my source, I'm assuming they're the same. Perhaps HBMC would check his source and see if he believes the wording agrees with my interpretation?
Have I missed something then? These henchmen squads don't need an inquisitor, like a retinue? They are their own entity?
If they don't need an inquisitor and don't take up an FOC slot, then you could take as many as you wanted with the points cap being the only limit? You could take literally dozens of small squads, whether it would be effective or not I don't know but it seems a little odd that they would allow this.
Its probably somewhere in this thread; but I'd assume the Henchmen would require an Inquisitor to be open as choices. It wouldn't make much sense otherwise. But yeah; its effectively a retinue thats 'split' from the Inquisitor.
We'll probably find out soon enough if or not Henchmen take a slot. (I honestly don't see why they wouldnt.)
I tell you something, I got into Daemonhunters to play Grey Knights but the idea of making a whole army with all of these henchmen is so appealing that I may look into building up a solely inquisitorial force.
Obviously I'll get tonnes of grey knights but whereas before, the ISTs as troops and an inquisitor or two and retinue as an army didn't really appeal, this time round the =I= forces do sound a lot more interesting
Normally, you may take one henchmen squad for each inquisitor in your army. They are their own separate squad, leaving the inquisitor to join them or not as you like. Henchmen do not take FOC slots.
Coteaz modifies this by making henchmen troops and allowing you to take them without regard to the number of inquisitors in your list. The rule that does this mentions nothing about taking up FOC slots, so my interpretation is that they still do not.
Then; if its true and they have to take something else...there must be something we havent seen then.
As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.
I tell you something, I got into Daemonhunters to play Grey Knights but the idea of making a whole army with all of these henchmen is so appealing that I may look into building up a solely inquisitorial force.
Obviously I'll get tonnes of grey knights but whereas before, the ISTs as troops and an inquisitor or two and retinue as an army didn't really appeal, this time round the =I= forces do sound a lot more interesting
I'm the opposite. I liked the Grey Knights before; but they seem too SM-y this time. While thats fine for the Deathwatch; it kinda spoils Grey Knights a bit. I'm not a big fan of the Chamber Militants; except for the Sisters of Battle. I got into Inquisition for the Inquisition.
I agree that things look better for us; with a chance at more more varied troops rather than just Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Squads (which honestly should be a Troop Choice in this codex; as well as an option for the warband retinue)
Mr Hyena wrote:As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.
Because it's an 8 years old codex getting an update and things are bound to change in some way.
Apparently in the new background they work primarily with the Ordo Malleus, but when things go south badly they can intervene for the other two Ordos.
Mr Hyena wrote:Then; if its true and they have to take something else...there must be something we havent seen then.
As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.
Sorry, you're a little to loose with your pronouns here. Who are you talking about?
Mr Hyena wrote:I agree that things look better for us; with a chance at more more varied troops rather than just Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Squads (which honestly should be a Troop Choice in this codex; as well as an option for the warband retinue)
I'll certainly agree with you here. Nothing in the henchmen section has the ability to get BS4, so even with carapace and hotshot lasguns you can't quite make an ISS.
Mr Hyena wrote:Then; if its true and they have to take something else...there must be something we havent seen then.
As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.
Sorry, you're a little to loose with your pronouns here. Who are you talking about?
I'm talking about the Henchmen not taking a FOC slot. Grey Knights don't really work with Ordo Xenos or Ordo Hereticus; so it doesn't make much sense that you can pick an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, some henchmen and have to take some Grey Knights.
Because it's an 8 years old codex getting an update and things are bound to change in some way.
Apparently in the new background they work primarily with the Ordo Malleus, but when things go south badly they can intervene for the other two Ordos.
Does it say that in the new codex? that kind of invalidates the whole Ordo - Militant bond that they have. (for all Ordos) I assume the same will be for the Sisters and The Deathwatch? Which makes me wonder why they need to make another codex rather than just roll both into the one.
Well...in looking at whos writing it. I wouldn't be surprised of a mess-up of this proportion.
Mr Hyena wrote:Then; if its true and they have to take something else...there must be something we havent seen then.
As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.
Sorry, you're a little to loose with your pronouns here. Who are you talking about?
I'm talking about the Henchmen not taking a FOC slot. Grey Knights don't really work with Ordo Xenos or Ordo Hereticus; so it doesn't make much sense that you can pick an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, some henchmen and have to take some Grey Knights.
Ahh, ok. That could very well be. The info I have access to does not support your conclusion, but as I've said before I believe my source is somewhat dated. This does seem an area that would have been noted and fixed during playtest. It's certainly one of the first things I noticed.
GhostKnights are also in. (terminators with stealth that are upgrade retinue for one of the special characters, his rules are fun, for every wound he takes another terminator is added to the squad to "protect" him hehe.
this thing just sounds insane, and I doubt this is true. If they are, I'm getting 10, to fit in with my raven guard.
Who's arguing? I'm just explaining the data I have access to.
I will say that I think that there will be a lot of abuse potential if they don't fix that loophole. Massed Henchmen squads that can claim and don't fill FOC slots have the potential to out-tankwall the IG, with a far more efficient point-to-special weapon ratio as well.
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shrike wrote:
GhostKnights are also in. (terminators with stealth that are upgrade retinue for one of the special characters, his rules are fun, for every wound he takes another terminator is added to the squad to "protect" him hehe.
this thing just sounds insane, and I doubt this is true. If they are, I'm getting 10, to fit in with my raven guard.
It's worse than that. His termies are substantially cheaper, show up on the first turn when deep striking, and do not deviate. And he's not an IC, so can't be picked out to make the rest of the squad go poof.
Mr Hyena wrote: I liked the Grey Knights before; but they seem too SM-y this time.
That's what I'd been thinking - they have certainly brought the GKs base stats in line with other space marine chapters which I am very disappointed with. Then they have added all these psychic powers in which made me think space marines with a little eldar thrown in...Ok...
So, yeah, it looked like the other SM codices with regard to the PAGK - space marines with grey knight rules. Just like blood angels are space marines with blood angel rules, space wolves are space marines with wolfy rules etc and this is the one thing that I really hoped wouldn't happen before any of these rumours hit the forums.
But, taking the codex as a whole, it seems that there may well be many viable builds that wont look anything like any of the other space marine codices. We may not see that many PAGK based armies because it seems that it will be possible to build armies around terminators and =I= then throw in stuff that can't be seen elsewhere like paladins and dreadknights, inquisitors from different factions and the stormraven which is so far only accessible by blood angels besides GK and I think that a codex: GK army could be very un-SM.
All assuming that these rumours are true of course but considering the amount of them from all the different sources and I believe that a lot of them will see their place in the new codex.
Mr Hyena wrote: I liked the Grey Knights before; but they seem too SM-y this time.
That's what I'd been thinking - they have certainly brought the GKs base stats in line with other space marine chapters which I am very disappointed with. Then they have added all these psychic powers in which made me think space marines with a little eldar thrown in...Ok...
So, yeah, it looked like the other SM codices with regard to the PAGK - space marines with grey knight rules. Just like blood angels are space marines with blood angel rules, space wolves are space marines with wolfy rules etc and this is the one thing that I really hoped wouldn't happen before any of these rumours hit the forums.
But, taking the codex as a whole, it seems that there may well be many viable builds that wont look anything like any of the other space marine codices. We may not see that many PAGK based armies because it seems that it will be possible to build armies around terminators and =I= then throw in stuff that can't be seen elsewhere like paladins and dreadknights, inquisitors from different factions and the stormraven which is so far only accessible by blood angels besides GK and I think that a codex: GK army could be very un-SM.
All assuming that these rumours are true of course but considering the amount of them from all the different sources and I believe that a lot of them will see their place in the new codex.
While I certainly support your wanting Grey Knights to be special and unique, it makes them far more likely to be a competitive force if they are equivalent to normal space marines, but with special rules to make them uniquely Grey Knights. While it was great to have "slightly better" space marines from DH codex, you never really wanted to pay that premium just for a few special rules, WS 5 and better wargear. Between that, the FoC requirements and the bland (and expensive) options in other parts of the codex, DH was NEVER a truly competitive army, even during 4th. It sounds like they are taking some steps to make them more like space marines at the bottom end (normal PAGKs) but letting the rest of the codex make a grey knights force special, which seems completely reasonable to me.
ductvader wrote:Easily said...but for all of us old GK players...we're losing everything that made the army GK-like.
WS-5 S-6 Fearless and a natural shrouding
In a sense...GKs aren't marines...they're just better. But the statlines no longer show that...now they're just kind of better...
Yes, but now everything else in the codex is way better to overcompensate. Can't fault them for trying to shake things up but it's sounding kind of "out there" in terms of internal balance.
I understand wanting to rock the proverbial boat...but don't destroy the codex...its like taking ATSKNF from Ultramarines next time around...people will be scratching their heads...didnt see that coming...oh...now marines have lasguns?...oh bad...but I get to take titans?...oh...all right
As I have already stated...I like the codex now because it allows one to build an army a millions different ways...that's why nids are my secondary army...
I don't see that at all. Everone in the book has a Storm Bolter, has a power weapon or prospective force weapon. Apparently Crowe allows Purifiers as troops, so you can still have 2 attack troopers, but now you can choose S6 or S5 I5 or S5 A3. The Grey Knights are there, and while I hate losing Fearless I can accept it because they will finally lay out the unholy levels of melee asskickage I've always wanted.
Mr Hyena wrote: I liked the Grey Knights before; but they seem too SM-y this time.
That's what I'd been thinking - they have certainly brought the GKs base stats in line with other space marine chapters which I am very disappointed with. Then they have added all these psychic powers in which made me think space marines with a little eldar thrown in...Ok...
So, yeah, it looked like the other SM codices with regard to the PAGK - space marines with grey knight rules. Just like blood angels are space marines with blood angel rules, space wolves are space marines with wolfy rules etc and this is the one thing that I really hoped wouldn't happen before any of these rumours hit the forums.
But, taking the codex as a whole, it seems that there may well be many viable builds that wont look anything like any of the other space marine codices. We may not see that many PAGK based armies because it seems that it will be possible to build armies around terminators and =I= then throw in stuff that can't be seen elsewhere like paladins and dreadknights, inquisitors from different factions and the stormraven which is so far only accessible by blood angels besides GK and I think that a codex: GK army could be very un-SM.
All assuming that these rumours are true of course but considering the amount of them from all the different sources and I believe that a lot of them will see their place in the new codex.
While I certainly support your wanting Grey Knights to be special and unique, it makes them far more likely to be a competitive force if they are equivalent to normal space marines, but with special rules to make them uniquely Grey Knights. While it was great to have "slightly better" space marines from DH codex, you never really wanted to pay that premium just for a few special rules, WS 5 and better wargear. Between that, the FoC requirements and the bland (and expensive) options in other parts of the codex, DH was NEVER a truly competitive army, even during 4th. It sounds like they are taking some steps to make them more like space marines at the bottom end (normal PAGKs) but letting the rest of the codex make a grey knights force special, which seems completely reasonable to me.
However potentially at the cost of losing alot of the flavor of the army. Being competitive isn't everything.
No, being competitive isn't everything, but being in a huff because your basic troopers are more like other basic troopers (who are fundamentally supposed to be similar, even if Grey Knights are known for their badassery, they are still Space Marines) so that you can have a better balanced army just seems asinine.
If they were just nerfing PAGK and not giving anything in return, that would be ridiculous. But when you put that together with expanding options at every other Force Organization slot, it seems like they are (correctly) just bringing things back in line with other armies and giving them some measure of balance.
ductvader wrote:Can we have it laid out how you can choose S6 or S5 I5 or S5 A3?
And also I don't remember seeing answer my question specifically as to what a psylencer is...
If anyone has these answers...thank you for responding.
I believe he's referring to the weapon options you can take, in conjunction with Hammerhand (which gives +1S). While I do not have access to wargear descriptions, the rumored effect of the Nemesis Halberd is +1I, the rumored effect of the Nemesis Demonhammer is +1S, and the rumored effect of two Nemesis Falchions is lightning claws. Not really sure about A3, I presume he meant an extra attack from the Falchoins.
I'm not aware of any rumors about what a psylencer is, that's one thing that no one seems to have a clue about.
Magister187 wrote:No, being competitive isn't everything, but being in a huff because your basic troopers are more like other basic troopers (who are fundamentally supposed to be similar, even if Grey Knights are known for their badassery, they are still Space Marines) so that you can have a better balanced army just seems asinine.
If they were just nerfing PAGK and not giving anything in return, that would be ridiculous. But when you put that together with expanding options at every other Force Organization slot, it seems like they are (correctly) just bringing things back in line with other armies and giving them some measure of balance.
IMHO, the uniqueness has only been lost to an extent which can be expected for the more simplified/streamlined nature of 5th edition.
Grey Knights still seem to have much of their original personality. I suspect, like many things within Codices these days, you can have it as themed and/or 'cheesy' as you like (within reason). It'll originate in a balance between the two, then you can direct it in either direction should you want to.
Although you don't have the same statline as you did before, GK now seem to be compensating through wargear, which has a similar effect to the previous statline.
I agree. However, despite both of those Codices notable flaws, they are still pretty good; expanding (albeit often badly) on the background and allowing a wide range of builds and flavours.
Nonetheless, this isn't the place for this discussion...
Can we have it laid out how you can choose S6 or S5 I5 or S5 A3?
And also I don't remember seeing answer my question specifically as to what a psylencer is...
If anyone has these answers...thank you for responding.
Probably nemesis halbeards and a libby nearby for an added +1S.
You are going to have S6 knights and other options as well but for balances sake probably at a to steep point cost.
Also what is the range of a psycannon rumored to be?
Is it just me, or does the Dreadknight's silhouette just make it look awful? It doesn't have any of that trademark bulk that makes up the majority of the IoM's design philosophy. It looks almost like an Eldar vehicle, not something a bunch of holy, god-like super bookworms on steroids would use. I thought it would be more like a Dreadnought, that would've been really cool.
AgeOfEgos wrote:*Shrug*, I consider Ward their 2nd best. His rules are solid, just his fluff makes me wince. Consider me relieved it's him and not others.
The problem is Inquisition/Chamber militants will suffer most from poor fluff. (See: Ordo Xenos using Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle rather than Deathwatch)
AgeOfEgos wrote:*Shrug*, I consider Ward their 2nd best. His rules are solid, just his fluff makes me wince. Consider me relieved it's him and not others.
The problem is Inquisition/Chamber militants will suffer most from poor fluff. (See: Ordo Xenos using Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle rather than Deathwatch)
Are we SURE that it is him? Or do we have no clue as to who is the writer. If it is though, I will probably be laughing at the codex fluff, then promptly realizing that it is being serious and cry.
I would say it's likely. While the Paladins remind me very much of Phil Kelly
Nobz: 2 wounds
Paladins: 2 wounds
Nobz: Unique wargear for allocation
Paladins: Unique wargear for allocation
Nobz: Become a troop choice if a certain HQ is taken
Paladins: Become a troop choice if a certain HQ is taken
....everyone in the know has pretty much stated "no, it's not Kelly". Ward is Mr. Space Marine, likes to name his weapons in rather silly fashion 'DOOMFISTS, BLOODFISTS'.....so I'm assuming it's him. The only thing that points to Cruddance is the fact Assassins are 0-3 for one slot, which seems to be the one quirk Cruddance puts in his dex. However, the assassins aren't carrying 3 twin linked las cannons and can't fly...rhinos aren't 15 points and don't allow 12 marines to shoot out of them...so I doubt it's him.
Puscifer wrote:Any confirmation the GK Dreadnought is going to get a Nemesis Weapon of some description and a Psycannon???
My information is that vehicle ranged weapons are unchanged from their codex counterparts. Although this is another thing that I think likely to have been changed.
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AgeOfEgos wrote:the fact Assassins are 0-3 for one slot,
Hmm, I haven't seen this rumor. My source doesn't support that, they appear to be normal elite choices in every way.
Not to defend Ward or anything, but the inclusion of Ordo Xenos isn't something he could just add in willy-nilly. Like the Dreadknight this is something that relied upon approval and influence by Jervis et al, not to mention Ward may have been picking up where Kelly left off, and who knows what he had worked on?
If Wardfist is writing this one, andNecrons is next as rumor seems to suggest...
Who's writing Necrons
If it's Kelly it would make some sense, as he helped write the original one. Mind you he's gotten a little odder since then (space wolves...)
If it's Arbitrary Cruddace, master of retconned fluff and not 'getting' the army concept i'll likely have one hell of a trade post up in the Swap Shop...
Any rumors there, or confirmation of Ward as the GK writer?
FM Ninja 048 wrote:In the very bottom right corner, look at the PAGK he has two vanes coming out of his backpack.
Betting a pair of the rumored falchions. Nemesis Lightning Claws.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OK, people are objecting to "cool" - really? Lookin' at you, Puma.
Much of what you said is right on, but lack of "cool" = bland.
Deepstriking Land Raiders? COOL! Took one immediately. Did it work? Well, it didn't scatter and die (shocking) - but it didn't do much. 250+ points coming in on turn 4 wasn't so cool.
Magna grapple? COOL! Took one immediately. Didn't do much.
Insane Dark Eldar Cthulhu-Eats-Your-Face grendade? COOL! Got killed by one immediately.
Put the cool in. Put it all over the place. It's flavor. No one's going to build an army around these ideas - and if they do, they'll be both cool - and terribly ineffective.
Also, why the angst over mixing factions? I'd LOVE to field an "all Inquisition" army. Heretics, Aliens, and Daemons beware - oh my. I'd have Grey Knights and Jotaki (if they are not Stoopid Monkeys) running alongside Nuns with Guns under some Inquisitors any day. That would be awesome. Might not win much, but it would be awesome.
Oh, yeah. got my Space Monkeys Good At Tech That Start With 'J' mixed up. Jotaki are Larry Niven Known Space critters.
What are the chances that 'psilencers' are a ranged psychic power suppressor? "Target loses the use of one psychic power this turn per hit" or something like that?
Psilencer is just a type of gun that uses 'psychic ammunition' ie. it focuses the psychic ability of the user rather than using real magazines of bullets or shells. From what I've read they just have a good rate of fire with decent punch, but nothing like a Psycannon.
Commisar Ciaphas Cain wrote:I. Yes, the Weaponsmiths are the Jokaero. Keep in mind they're in the Inquisitor's Warband and nowhere in their entry does it mention that they work with the Grey Knights themselves. I think it's a nod at the Ordo Xenos inclusion. You should hear their rules though, hoo boy!
II. I've seen some none blurred pictures, yeah. Some of that new artwork is impressive! And the Dreadknight box art is sweeeeet. You guys will really like it, it's the most bad ass Exo-Suit this side of Terra.
III. I'll get back to you guys on the Wargear stuff the next time I take a look. Orbital Strike Relay calls down a single Orbital Bombardment, I believe.
IV. Sadly, yes, the GM, BC, and Libby come with a 5++ Invul as is Terminator Standard. They can take Warding Staves though. The GM and BC have Psychic Communion and Hammerhands, and no, they can't customize their powers.
V. They come with Nemesis Force Swords as standard. If you want the Halberd and so on, you's got to pay up!
VI. Also, the Brotherhood Champion is an HQ too that no one seems to care about. Poor guys. I still love you and Castellan Crowe too!
VII. The Turbo-Penetrator acts exactly how it sounds like with Sniper. Scary, innit?
VIII. Warding Staves are a generic 2++ as far as I know. And no, outside of the Crusader type Henchman, there be no Storm Shields. Guess they wanted to leave that to the regular SMs.
IX. I'm actually kind of confused what the purpose of a Brother Captain is to be honest. He's only 25 points cheaper than the Grand Master and he doesn't even have the awesomeness that's The Grand Strategy that the GMs have.
X. Purifier Squads, I know no one asked, but they're so boss. My standard troop type thanks to His Awesomeness Castellan Crowe.
XI. Costs: GM = 175. BC = 150. Libby = 150. Brotherhood Champ = 100 (For Arty Armour and weapons of awesome!)
XI. FLUFF QUESTIONS HOOOOO!
-Paladin Terminators are basically super elite badasses. When a GK thinks he can be a bad ass, he embarks on an eight step quest to become a Paladin, involving spending a day and night in some super evil cavern in Mount Anarch, go test his will against some super evil book, kill a Herald of each of the four Chaos Gods, kick the ass of one of the 666 super daemons and more. Then he goes and joins the Paladins in the Hall of Champions and bodyguards the Grandmasters and Apothecaries.
-GKs are organized into various Brotherhoods, each with a BC and his bodyguard called the Brotherhood Champion. I can't be sure until I get another look at it, but it almost seems as if the GKs can be called in if any of the Ordos are having too many problems. SEEMS though, I have to check.
-It seems to be a mix of pick and called. The GKs can go drop the hammer wherever they think they need to, but if the Inquisition calls, they've gotta go be Bros and back em up.
-Jokaeros and Daemonhosts work with INQUISITORS not necessarily the GKs. I guess if they have to work with them they view it as a necessary evil?
XII. And yes, the Cullexus lost the aura and the ability.
EDIT: Also, as scary as Paladins are, they do cost an arm and a leg. And a kidney. Basically you become Iron-Hand Straken if you want an army of them.
Quote Castellan Garran Crowe
-Head and Brotherhood Champion of the Purifier Order
-Wielder of The Blade of Antwyr, a super daemon sword that not only attracts heretics and daemons like flies, but tries to corrupt and possess the wielder, thus it was entrusted to the Purifiers to keep safe. Crowe is the only one with the fortitude to keep it under control.
-Stats: 8 4 4 4 2 6 * 10 2+
-150 pts
-The reason for the * on his A slot is because he has the same "The Perfect Warrior" ability that Brotherhood Champs have
-Artificer Armour; Frak, Krak, and Psyk-Out Nades, Storm Bolter; Iron Halo
-The Blade of Antwyr: Close Combat Weapon, but the turn his unit GETS assaulted they gain Furious Charge and re-roll all failed to hit rolls for that Assault Phase
-Master Swordsman: His CC attacks are Rending and Rend on a 4+
-All the rules a regular Broterhood Champ has
-Purifiers are TROOPS with Castellan Crowe
Purifiers are awesome because for +4 points over a PAGK they gain an extra attack and LD point. And access to The Cleansing Flame psychic power. Oh and Incinerators are free for them.
The Grand Strategy is the ability of the Grand Master to give one of four special rules to D3 units (Infantry, Jump Infantry, MCs, or Walkers, NOT Inquis. Warbands, ICs, or Modrak's Ghost Knights). The rules are:
-Hammer of Righteousness: Nominated unit re-rolls to wound rolls of 1 for the duration of the game
-Shield of Blades: Target unit gets Counter Attack
-Spear of Light: Target unit gets Scouts
-Unyielding Anvil: Target unit gains Scoring
Brother-Captain Stern
-Stern is NOT a Mephiston like beast. The idea makes me chuckle. He is good though.
-Standard Brother Captain Statline & Equipment
-Strands of Fate: Stern can reroll one to hit, to wound, or saving throw die PER PHASE. However, for every one you chose to roll, your enemy can reroll one of his own later in the game.
-Zone of Banishment: Psychic Power used in the assault phase in place of his CC attacks. ALL models within 6" (Friendly and enemy, and himself!) must take a Strength test. Those that fail are dragged into the Warp AKA removed from play. Daemons must reroll successful saves.
ALSO! I IS IDIOT. BROTHER CAPTAINS, GRAND MASTERS, AND BROTHERHOOD CHAMPIONS HAVE IRON HALOS. THAT IS ALL. 4++ INVUL.
VoidAngel wrote:OK, people are objecting to "cool" - really? Lookin' at you, Puma.
Much of what you said is right on, but lack of "cool" = bland.
We are not objecting to things because they are cool. We are objecting because they are cheap gimmicks that come at too high a cost to the feel of the game, for the sake of a few fleeting moments of interest.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Psilencer is just a type of gun that uses 'psychic ammunition' ie. it focuses the psychic ability of the user rather than using real magazines of bullets or shells. From what I've read they just have a good rate of fire with decent punch, but nothing like a Psycannon.
So the Grey Knights stole the CSM's Kai Guns and gave them a stupid name?
It just saddens me that, like all those weird and wonderful Incubi options (bodyguard people), we'll never see models for these Inquisition style things. Jokearo may be silly, but I'd rather see a model for them than not...
transformers to the rescue! Between that strange looking thing and the storm raven the GK players will be able to lay claim to the crappiest looking army
Hey guys, just saw this over at Hero's gaming blog. It details some more stuff, don't know if it's old but it claims to have been updated early this morning.
Inquisitor Valaria seems to come with a pokeball...tell me it isn't (you wound monstrous creature for a couple of turns...then don't attack it and use the 'Hyperstone maze'. The enemy has to roll a d6 <= their remaining wounds or they are "trapped in the maze forever"/removed from play. YOU CAUGHT A SWARMLORD!)
Also, why the angst over mixing factions? I'd LOVE to field an "all Inquisition" army. Heretics, Aliens, and Daemons beware - oh my. I'd have Grey Knights and Jotaki (if they are not Stoopid Monkeys) running alongside Nuns with Guns under some Inquisitors any day. That would be awesome. Might not win much, but it would be awesome.
It might be 'Teh Cool' but it spoils the amazing background fluff for the Inquisition. Inquisitors do not like to work with the other branches. Read up on the Siege of Vraks campain.
-GKs are organized into various Brotherhoods, each with a BC and his bodyguard called the Brotherhood Champion. I can't be sure until I get another look at it, but it almost seems as if the GKs can be called in if any of the Ordos are having too many problems. SEEMS though, I have to check.
I just cannot believe this, as this "brotherhood thing" is exactly the fluff I came up with a year ago for my Red Hunters. I had the idea that as soon as a Red Hunter becomes a veteran in the 1st company, they are also invited in one of the brotherhoods of the order - each brotherhood resembling a typical way of fighting, behaving, thinking, etc.
So now my Red Hunters will even more be "second rate" Grey Knights than before *lol*
Trevak Dal wrote:Hey guys, just saw this over at Hero's gaming blog. It details some more stuff, don't know if it's old but it claims to have been updated early this morning.
Inquisitor Valaria seems to come with a pokeball...tell me it isn't (you wound monstrous creature for a couple of turns...then don't attack it and use the 'Hyperstone maze'. The enemy has to roll a d6 <= their remaining wounds or they are "trapped in the maze forever"/removed from play. YOU CAUGHT A SWARMLORD!)
there was a last minute addition to the rule, you need to have this playing while you use the ability
Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.
Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.
Mr Hyena wrote:Then; if its true and they have to take something else...there must be something we havent seen then.
As why would they have an Ordo Xenos or Hereticus Inquisitor in the codex as an option? they don't work with the Grey Knights.
If it is true, I see it as the Ordos helping each other out, what if an Ork weird boy was so powerful that he risked tearing a rip in the materium (sp) and unleashing a daemonic incursion on to an imperial world.
The Orks need stopping = Ordo Zenos expertise
the psyker needs stopping = Ordo Heraticus expertise
There's a strong chance of daemonic incursion = Ordo malleus expertise
Grey knights are more SM-ey because there not 100% built around Daemon hunting anymore, there just more of an elite chapter of space marines who work closely with Ordo malleus and then the other Ordos where needed.
Trevak Dal wrote:Hey guys, just saw this over at Hero's gaming blog. It details some more stuff, don't know if it's old but it claims to have been updated early this morning.
Inquisitor Valaria seems to come with a pokeball...tell me it isn't (you wound monstrous creature for a couple of turns...then don't attack it and use the 'Hyperstone maze'. The enemy has to roll a d6 <= their remaining wounds or they are "trapped in the maze forever"/removed from play. YOU CAUGHT A SWARMLORD!)
Hero has a really nice blog but only after he's actually read the new codex; his speculation is entirely based off the current rumors and even then is kinda skewed atm (until last night he still thought Incinerators/Psycannons still had Ignore Invuln. Saves on top of having Rending, etc.) so I'd rather wait until he gets a good look at the codex and starts pontificating from there.
ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.
Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.
I think that's just a misconception, because think about it:
-Without Coteaz: Henchmen are from the Elites choices but don't take up a slot
-With Coteaz: Are from the troops but still don't take up a slot?
It wouldn't make any sense to make the move from Elites to Troops if they didn't count towards the minimum. Besides, this is potentially a Ward codex, and for all the bad stuff he does he has a tendency to encourage alternative lists via FoC-tweaking HQs. Have hope.
bhsman wrote:
It wouldn't make any sense to make the move from Elites to Troops if they didn't count towards the minimum. Besides, this is potentially a Ward codex, and for all the bad stuff he does he has a tendency to encourage alternative lists via FoC-tweaking HQs. Have hope.
I hope you're right bhsman but I think that being able to move them to troops is just to allow them hold objectives and stuff.
Not making them count for FOC purposes means that you would have to take grey knights which kind of makes sense in a book called Codex: Grey Knights. Imagine an army called codex: orks with no orcs or codex: blood angels with no blood angels.
Im hoping for an =I= only army for all the possibilities but it's no longer a daemonhunters codex remember.
One of the guys on Seer specifically stated "You would need to always take 2 PAGK unless you went Paladins" regardless of henchman FOC. So, at the moment, it does not appear you can take henchmen to fulfill the two troops.
However, just take your two mandatory PAGK squads then enlist Coteaz Henchman Servitor/orangutan spam.
For the =I= only players sake, I hope you don't need two GK squads. But let's assume you do, then they have play the "counts as" game. So that would be what - two squads of Deathwatch for Xenos, and two super-sister squads for heretics?
Oh yeah; thats true. For my Ordo Xenos force I can just do 'Counts As' for Deathwatch; using the Grey Knights.
Still; theres always a chance that there will be Inquisitorial Stormtroopers to take up the 2 slots. (And it seems kinda silly to make Henchmen into troops but not counting)
ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.
Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.
I don't understand this line of thinking?
The rule book says you must have 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you take Cortez, Henchmen become Troops. Yes they don't take up a force org slot, but they're still troops. Have two of the squads and you have a legal list. Or am I wrong?
ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.
Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.
I don't understand this line of thinking?
The rule book says you must have 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you take Cortez, Henchmen become Troops. Yes they don't take up a force org slot, but they're still troops. Have two of the squads and you have a legal list. Or am I wrong?
Yes, you have an HQ and 2 Troops, but you don't have two Troops FOC SLOTS, which is what the BRB is actually telling you to do.
We do however have a FAQ ruling that the emperor's champion can be the necessary HQ in a black Templar army, even though he doesn't take a slot. So we'll have to see.
I understand that Purifiers are the new Purgation squads and can be taken as troops with a SC. They have improved A and LD over basic GK with a cool psychic power. Can you equip these squads with just Stormbolter and Nemesis weapons or do you have to take 4 specials? I was thinking of small scoring units of them but I don't want to give up all the NFW when they have and extra A!
For example can you run a 5 man Purifier squad like:
Justicar with cool stuff, 2 Psycannons, 2 SB/NFW
GK need more special weapons. They have a S6 heavy bolter and a heavy flamer. Where's the anti-tank?
My army, judjing by these rumours:
SC (haven't decided)
dreadknight
stormraven
dread
vindicare
callidus
purgation squad (4 incinerators)
PAGK (10)
inquisitor
henchmen
paladins (5)
TAGK (10)
PAGK (10)
OK, so going a bunch of threads/posts I come up with his as the GKSS entry:
100 points for 4 GKs plus Justicar
Justicar 444414293+
GK 444414183+
Equipment: Storm Bolter (counts as pistol in CC) and Nemesis Force Weapon (power weapon?)
Halberd Upgrade +5 points for +1I
Daemonhammer Upgrade +5 points for +1S
For every five you can upgrade to a: a) Psycannon, or b) Incinerator, or c) Psilencer
Hammerhead: Psychic test for squad-wide +1S
Warp Quake: Teleport homers nullified with 12" and enemy units Deep Striking within 12" suffer mishap.
Preferred Enemy: Daemon
ATSKNF Combat squads
Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test)
Things I haven't seen: whether or not the squad can add single models at 20 points each; or whether or not they come standard with frag and krak grenades; whether or not the power weapon is included in the base cost.
All this seems a little point cheap when compared to the standard Space Marine, no?
whoadirty wrote:OK, so going a bunch of threads/posts I come up with his as the GKSS entry:
100 points for 4 GKs plus Justicar
Justicar 444414293+
GK 444414183+
Equipment: Storm Bolter (counts as pistol in CC) and Nemesis Force Weapon (power weapon?)
Halberd Upgrade +5 points for +1I
Daemonhammer Upgrade +5 points for +1S
For every five you can upgrade to a: a) Psycannon, or b) Incinerator, or c) Psilencer
Hammerhead: Psychic test for squad-wide +1S
Warp Quake: Teleport homers nullified with 12" and enemy units Deep Striking within 12" suffer mishap.
Preferred Enemy: Daemon
ATSKNF Combat squads
Aegis (units targeted by powers, enemy psyker at -1ld for test)
Things I haven't seen: whether or not the squad can add single models at 20 points each; or whether or not they come standard with frag and krak grenades; whether or not the power weapon is included in the base cost.
All this seems a little point cheap when compared to the standard Space Marine, no?
so the upgrades:
can you have +1S and +1I?
can you upgrade, say, 3 marines to have halberds and 2 to have daemonhammers?
and yes, 4pts for a power weapon, +1A, +1WS, preferred enemy, anti-psyker protection, nullifying teleport homers and deep strikers and a +1S psychic power?
this means either at least half these things are wrong or it's the most OP codex out.
Puscifer wrote:So you need to take a minimum of two PAGK units per FOC???
I thought TAGK were troops choices too.
No, from my understanding, you just need 2 troops that are part of the FOC so that's PAGK or TAGK. Even Paladins if you make them troops. It's just the henchmen that are different as they don't count towards the FOC.
Interestingly, over on Warseer, someone called Ominous Anonymous has said:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."
Not sure I like the idea of traitorous geneseed in my Grey Knights. I've always been the kind of person that just likes the good guys although the troubled anti-hero type can be pretty cool. And I do like Dark Angels too. But GK possibly having some traitor DNA in them? That's a fluff change/addition too far for me.
so the upgrades:
can you have +1S and +1I?
can you upgrade, say, 3 marines to have halberds and 2 to have daemonhammers?
and yes, 4pts for a power weapon, +1A, +1WS, preferred enemy, anti-psyker protection, nullifying teleport homers and deep strikers and a +1S psychic power?
this means either at least half these things are wrong or it's the most OP codex out.
I'm thinking the power weapon can't be free, or maybe just the Justicar has it. WS is the same as a SM. And yeah, any model can do the CC upgrade.
Puscifer wrote:So you need to take a minimum of two PAGK units per FOC???
I thought TAGK were troops choices too.
No, from my understanding, you just need 2 troops that are part of the FOC so that's PAGK or TAGK. Even Paladins if you make them troops. It's just the henchmen that are different as they don't count towards the FOC.
Interestingly, over on Warseer, someone called Ominous Anonymous has said:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."
Not sure I like the idea of traitorous geneseed in my Grey Knights. I've always been the kind of person that just likes the good guys although the troubled anti-hero type can be pretty cool. And I do like Dark Angels too. But GK possibly having some traitor DNA in them? That's a fluff change/addition too far for me.
It's likely a reference to Garro, who was originally DeathGuard hence 'traitorous fusion'.....
ColdSadHungry wrote:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."
Thousand Sons seems to be the obvious awnser here.
shrike wrote:GK need more special weapons. They have a S6 heavy bolter and a heavy flamer. Where's the anti-tank?
My army, judjing by these rumours:
SC (haven't decided)
dreadknight
stormraven
dread
vindicare
callidus
purgation squad (4 incinerators)
PAGK (10)
inquisitor
henchmen
paladins (5)
TAGK (10)
PAGK (10)
but this game is turning into
If everything is cheesy, nothing is cheesy anymore.
H.B.M.C. wrote:It just saddens me that, like all those weird and wonderful Incubi options (bodyguard people), we'll never see models for these Inquisition style things. Jokearo may be silly, but I'd rather see a model for them than not...
We can always hold out hope for some "direct only" minis. I am curious how they will repackage all the henchmen models that currently exist. Something tells me GW will want to put them in a boxset of some sort.
Mr Hyena wrote:Well thats stupid...looks like Ordo Xenos players will need to take Grey Knights...
You've got that a bit backwards... this codex isn't designed for Ordo Xenos players... so its that Grey Knights can take Ordo Xenos Inquisitors. When you build an army that contradicts the design intent, you can't complain when it doesn't fit your imagination.
ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.
Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.
I don't understand this line of thinking?
The rule book says you must have 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you take Cortez, Henchmen become Troops. Yes they don't take up a force org slot, but they're still troops. Have two of the squads and you have a legal list. Or am I wrong?
Yes, you have an HQ and 2 Troops, but you don't have two Troops FOC SLOTS, which is what the BRB is actually telling you to do.
I'll just leave this here...
BLACK TEMPLARS Official Update Version 1.1 wrote:Q. Can I field the EmperorĘĽs Champion as my one
compulsory HQ choice and no other HQs in the army?
(p31)
A. Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ slot, he is
still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfil the minimum HQ requirement
ColdSadHungry wrote:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."
Thousand Sons seems to be the obvious awnser here.
Why Thousand Sons???
Just because the entire army is psychic, doesn't mean that it was taken from the Thousand Son genestock.
Garro is generally recognised as either the first =I= or the the first GK. He was a Death Guard, yet you don't really see their traits in the GK either. It's tough to see where the Geneseed comes from other than from the Emperor himself, which has been mentioned in several books over the last 20+ years.
Deepstriking Land Raiders? COOL! Took one immediately. Did it work? Well, it didn't scatter and die (shocking) - but it didn't do much. 250+ points coming in on turn 4 wasn't so cool.
Magna grapple? COOL! Took one immediately. Didn't do much.
Insane Dark Eldar Cthulhu-Eats-Your-Face grendade? COOL! Got killed by one immediately.
Put the cool in. Put it all over the place. It's flavor. No one's going to build an army around these ideas - and if they do, they'll be both cool - and terribly ineffective.
So very true!
If taking all the fun gimmicks like psycannons, ward saves, extra powers etc the army will most probably be unusable.
There is bound to be a delicate balance between taking just the few extra toys and simply getting to few models.
VIII. Warding Staves are a generic 2++ as far as I know. And no, outside of the Crusader type Henchman, there be no Storm Shields. Guess they wanted to leave that to the regular SMs.
As per above, DA and SW and even SM armies that are wholly or almost wholly made up of terminators are going to be more effective then all GK terminator armies.
The reason are stormshields and the ability to mix them in units in large quantities.
A 2++ ward save will be nice but you will only be able to afford like one per terminator squad whereas a stormshield can be afforded eitehr for free or cheap points for the other terminator armies.
It is quantity that save terminator squads not quality. When a plasmacannon template wounds 2-4 of your terminators (or other multiwound AP1-2 weapon) you need multiple 3++ saves to disperse the wounds with and not ONE 2++ save, this will just get more of your 5++ terminators get killed.
What is one 2++ save amongst a squad going to do against multiple hammers or first in Cc?
On the contrary, multiple 3++ shields will completely shut down any GK terminator squad in Cc.
I predict a hard counter to GK terminators and even paladins in the form of the humble SMSS/TH terminator squad.
No matter how I try out some mathammer with equal points the hammer terminators absolutely own any form of "rumored" GK squads in Cc.
XI. Costs: GM = 175. BC = 150. Libby = 150. Brotherhood Champ = 100 (For Arty Armour and weapons of awesome!)
There goes the cheap HQ potion GK once had. I missed my 60p BC option.
Imagine a GKHQ being at at least 200p with that 2++ save. Not much left over for other models.
kill a Herald of each of the four Chaos Gods, kick the ass of one of the 666 super daemons and more.
LOL Given how rare it is to be at the exact same place as a certain herald pops up and given how rare those occasions are I take it becoming a paladin takes about 3000 years or so.
We have a squad of a bunch of beardo grandpas, cool.
but it almost seems as if the GKs can be called in if any of the Ordos are having too many problems. SEEMS though, I have to check.
Ahh, so this is the fluff explanation of GKs being mixed in with xeno =I=s and such.
Logical I must say. If the xenos has trouble they ask malleous for help and for a (I guess) steep price in the form of favours, the malleous lends out a GK force.
Clever GW, clever. I totally buy this.
-Brotherhood of Psykers: A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. They count as a single psyker and follow all the normal rules as such with the following clarifications:
I. GK unit uses the leadership of the Justicar or Knight of Flame if he is alive, otherwise, uses the unit's LD. They may never use the LD of an Independent character for Psychic Tests
Auch, that sucks, makes the force weapon ability pretty dull. Only one model in the squad may use the force ability so multiple wound units like grotesques etc will still be a big problem for the GKs point per point.
AgeOfEgos wrote:One of the guys on Seer specifically stated "You would need to always take 2 PAGK unless you went Paladins" regardless of henchman FOC. So, at the moment, it does not appear you can take henchmen to fulfill the two troops.
However, just take your two mandatory PAGK squads then enlist Coteaz Henchman Servitor/orangutan spam.
So he would still be wrong because you can also have Terminators as troops? :p
shrike wrote:but this game is turning into
So what you're saying is that you have no idea what you're talking about?
Ahh, so this is the fluff explanation of GKs being mixed in with xeno =I=s and such.
Logical I must say. If the xenos has trouble they ask malleous for help and for a (I guess) steep price in the form of favours, the malleous lends out a GK force.
Clever GW, clever. I totally buy this.
They must have made the chapter bigger in the fluff then. As the GKs are always saying (And Malleus too) is that theres too few GKs to spare even one.
Ahh, so this is the fluff explanation of GKs being mixed in with xeno =I=s and such.
Logical I must say. If the xenos has trouble they ask malleous for help and for a (I guess) steep price in the form of favours, the malleous lends out a GK force.
Clever GW, clever. I totally buy this.
They must have made the chapter bigger in the fluff then. As the GKs are always saying (And Malleus too) is that theres too few GKs to spare even one.
According to some of the fluffsites and some info that i've gleaned from various sources they are 3000 strong, but most of their number are on duty either investigating or battling against a Daemonic Incursion. Apparently there is a mini-map in the dex which shows the amount and placings of the incursions across the Galaxy.
There have been recent bits of fiction to suggest that the first Grey Knights were made up of the few remaining survivors of the Traitor Legions loyal to the Emperor, the rest killed at the Istvaan Massacre or fallen to Chaos. It would make sense that the Grey Knights were forged from the few marines to be directly exposed to the whisperings of the Ruinous Powers and able to come away unscathed and loyal to Humanity.
It would also make sense that the Grey Knights would follow the Emperor's original decree that he not be viewed as a God, and that humanity should follow the path of reason rather than believing in the supernatural. This would make sense in either origin of the Knights, either derived right from the Emperor or a fusion of the seed of the loyal Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, et al.
Personally I like that idea. It means that even amongst the traitor legions, there were those who remained pure and unsullied. It means that even amongst the fanatically loyal super monks they have enough freedom of will and imagination to choose their own fate, rather than be led to the slaughter because of their charismatic Primarch. I hope that they either leave their origins a mystery or confirm that they were derived in this way.
ColdSadHungry wrote:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."
Thousand Sons seems to be the obvious awnser here.
Why Thousand Sons???
Just because the entire army is psychic, doesn't mean that it was taken from the Thousand Son genestock.
Garro is generally recognised as either the first =I= or the the first GK. He was a Death Guard, yet you don't really see their traits in the GK either. It's tough to see where the Geneseed comes from other than from the Emperor himself, which has been mentioned in several books over the last 20+ years.
Occams Razor: You have a bunch of psycic geneseed. You want to make a new all psyker army. You use the avalable stock on hand.
In Fluff what two armys do all basic troops have some kind of psycic ability? T-Sons and GK's. Since GK's came after T-Sons, the leap of logic is not a difficult one. So you take the T-Sons geenseed stock and rework it a bit and there you go Grey Knights! The rumor does say though its a traitorious fuision, so throw in some Iron Warrior (for their tech ability), DG (for their fortitude), World Eater (for CC mastery) and you are all set with a new Ubar geneseed. Psycic tech savy tough CC monsters. You could replace Iron warriors with Imperial Fist and WE with BA though and get the same thing. But you still need the T-Sons for the psycic connection.
-The Blade of Antwyr: Close Combat Weapon, but the turn his unit GETS assaulted they gain Furious Charge and re-roll all failed to hit rolls for that Assault Phase
Wow, so enemies get so upset by the fluff **** that is a GK wielding a daemon weapon that they get Furious charge?
ColdSadHungry wrote:
"GK fluff. Yes I have a bit I can share. As for their Origins, well.. Let's just say that their geneseed is of a... Traitorous Fusion...? Hehehe. Suffice to say you're welcome to guess all of you, and if you get it, i'll confirm it. But this is just too good for me to outright say.. Heh."
Thousand Sons seems to be the obvious awnser here.
Why Thousand Sons???
Just because the entire army is psychic, doesn't mean that it was taken from the Thousand Son genestock.
Garro is generally recognised as either the first =I= or the the first GK. He was a Death Guard, yet you don't really see their traits in the GK either. It's tough to see where the Geneseed comes from other than from the Emperor himself, which has been mentioned in several books over the last 20+ years.
Yes.
In Fluff what two armys do all basic troops have some kind of psycic ability? T-Sons and GK's. So you take the T-Sons geenseed stock and rework it a bit and there you go Grey Knights! The rumor does say though its a traitorious fuision, so throw in some Iron Warrior (for their tech ability), DG (for their fortitude), World Eater (for CC mastery) and you are all set with a new Ubar geneseed. Psycic tech savy tough CC monsters. You could replace Iron warriors with Imperial Fist and WE with BA though and get the same thing. But you still need the T-Sons for the psycic connection.
Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.
raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.
Since most recuits are taken in pre or low teens(as with all SM Chapters). The psyker ability is usally not yet known or manifested itself. During testing the spark for it is found and the recuit is sent on for more testing and trainning to heighten these abilitys. If you take a psycicly prone recuit then jam some gene seed in them that helps expand that ability what do think would happen? Ohh and Hey look who has really good gene seend when you want to boost the psykic ability of a base human? T-Sons agin is the logical and really only awnser.
So what you're saying is that you have no idea what you're talking about?
I know what I'm talking about- the past 2 loyalist codexes have deepstriking land raiders, dreadnoughts hanging onto flying bricks, space marines riding wolves, MC stats on a 25mm base, and canis WOLFborn of the space WOLVES, wielding WOLF claws and riding a WOLF, backed up by thunderWOLF cavalry. Now there's another loyalist codex with armoured armoured armoured armour, more flying bricks, and even a SC that lets you take 2W terminators as troops. And none of this is at all cheesy?
raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.
This is wong
There I fixed it for you. Just kidding.
Let look at this logicly in fluff. First you have to find a pre-Teen that has the psykic gene in them. Then they have to undergo all the same trials and testing to become a Standard SM recuit. From the fluff we know that mabye one or two in a hundred make it past this part. But lets be generous and say its 5. Now they have to undergo the surgerey and impantation of the genenseed and extra organs. The fluff says that we lose even more recuits in this phase of the trials. So agin being gernerous lets say 3 make it this far. Then its off to the Libraians to test and train and attempt to master their psykic abilitys. Fluff there says that many dont make it here, because they cant learn control of their powers. Well you cant have a Super enhanced psyker running around lose can you, so your gona have to put him down. Now we have a single Psyker recuit thats ready to take on the mantle of a PAGK.
So in this situation, what geneseed would you use? Ultramarine? I dont think so. They have a stable and reliable geneseed but you need something with a bit of extra oomph to it. Well lookie here we have this whole big vat of geneseed that helps enhance and control psykic abilitys built in. Mabye we shouldnt use it though. The last guys who did went bad. Well they didnt really go bad they were sortof foreced to go bad to survive after their boss made a bad decision and their Grand Dad decided to kill them for it. So I bet if we monitor these new guys a bit more and mabye keep their Gramps from trying to kill them, I bet they would work out just fine.
raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.
This is wong
There I fixed it for you. Just kidding.
Let look at this logicly in fluff. First you have to find a pre-Teen that has the psykic gene in them. Then they have to undergo all the same trials and testing to become a Standard SM recuit. From the fluff we know that mabye one or two in a hundred make it past this part. But lets be generous and say its 5. Now they have to undergo the surgerey and impantation of the genenseed and extra organs. The fluff says that we lose even more recuits in this phase of the trials. So agin being gernerous lets say 3 make it this far. Then its off to the Libraians to test and train and attempt to master their psykic abilitys. Fluff there says that many dont make it here, because they cant learn control of their powers. Well you cant have a Super enhanced psyker running around lose can you, so your gona have to put him down. Now we have a single Psyker recuit thats ready to take on the mantle of a PAGK.
So in this situation, what geneseed would you use? Ultramarine? I dont think so. They have a stable and reliable geneseed but you need something with a bit of extra oomph to it. Well lookie here we have this whole big vat of geneseed that helps enhance and control psykic abilitys built in. Mabye we shouldnt use it though. The last guys who did went bad. Well they didnt really go bad they were sortof foreced to go bad to survive after their boss made a bad decision and their Grand Dad decided to kill them for it. So I bet if we monitor these new guys a bit more and mabye keep their Gramps from trying to kill them, I bet they would work out just fine.
raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.
This is wong
There I fixed it for you. Just kidding.
Let look at this logicly in fluff. First you have to find a pre-Teen that has the psykic gene in them. Then they have to undergo all the same trials and testing to become a Standard SM recuit. From the fluff we know that mabye one or two in a hundred make it past this part. But lets be generous and say its 5. Now they have to undergo the surgerey and impantation of the genenseed and extra organs. The fluff says that we lose even more recuits in this phase of the trials. So agin being gernerous lets say 3 make it this far. Then its off to the Libraians to test and train and attempt to master their psykic abilitys. Fluff there says that many dont make it here, because they cant learn control of their powers. Well you cant have a Super enhanced psyker running around lose can you, so your gona have to put him down. Now we have a single Psyker recuit thats ready to take on the mantle of a PAGK.
So in this situation, what geneseed would you use? Ultramarine? I dont think so. They have a stable and reliable geneseed but you need something with a bit of extra oomph to it. Well lookie here we have this whole big vat of geneseed that helps enhance and control psykic abilitys built in. Mabye we shouldnt use it though. The last guys who did went bad. Well they didnt really go bad they were sortof foreced to go bad to survive after their boss made a bad decision and their Grand Dad decided to kill them for it. So I bet if we monitor these new guys a bit more and mabye keep their Gramps from trying to kill them, I bet they would work out just fine.
^ this.
Negative. Not "This." Grey Knights do not need to be monitored. They are the watchers on the walls, the light in the darkness, the shield that guards the realms of men. They are not watched, they are the eternally vigilant. They are the Hammer of His Divine Retribution. They are the Grey Knights.
Sorry - I for one cannot agree with the Thousand Sons Gene being used for the GK.
1) Their Gene was the most unstable and prone to mutation above all others.
2) GK recruit powerful psykers into their ranks as mentioned above.
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GKIMO.
So what you're saying is that you have no idea what you're talking about?
I know what I'm talking about- the past 2 loyalist codexes have deepstriking land raiders, dreadnoughts hanging onto flying bricks, space marines riding wolves, MC stats on a 25mm base, and canis WOLFborn of the space WOLVES, wielding WOLF claws and riding a WOLF, backed up by thunderWOLF cavalry. Now there's another loyalist codex with armoured armoured armoured armour, more flying bricks, and even a SC that lets you take 2W terminators as troops. And none of this is at all cheesy?
depends on which definition of the word cheesy you're actually using.. the version that means "corny"/"in bad taste" or the version that means "overpowered"/"unbalanced"? the former? definitely. there is no defending blood angels with blood fists or using the word "wolf" more than once in a unit description (space wolf wolf lord on a thunderwolf with wolf claws and wolf talisman). the latter? not so much. the blood angel codex is not OP and, while the space wolf one is almost all postive in its changes, it's still not gamebreaking. but, hey, every new release thread needs its chicken little so go wild!
Puscifer wrote:
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GKIMO.
I think we get closer to the truth behind the origins of the GK geneseed.
Its not impossible to merge, if we consider the GK a last gift to mankind from the creator of the Primarchs and space marines himself.
ther is a big hint in the Garro audio books about the origins
Spoiler:
In oath of moment Garro is sent to Calth to pick up an ex-librarian Ultra, he ends up having to use his powers in fromt of other Ultras and is shunned by them Garro takes him away to serve the emporer...
also in the book garro is using unmarked GREY armour...
so maby grey knights are a mix of psykers from all the legions blended into perfection by the big E
Puscifer wrote:
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GKIMO.
Why are people saying the TS, We know that the Emperor and Death Guard contributed to the Geneseed, so why do we need the TS's when we know the Emperor is a Psyker, would easily explain the increase in the psychic abilities in the already psychic recruits.
FM Ninja 048 wrote:ther is a big hint in the Garro audio books about the origins
Spoiler:
In oath of moment Garro is sent to Calth to pick up an ex-librarian Ultra, he ends up having to use his powers in fromt of other Ultras and is shunned by them Garro takes him away to serve the emporer...
also in the book garro is using unmarked GREY armour...
so maby grey knights are a mix of psykers from all the legions blended into perfection by the big E
That makes perfect sense and fits the fluff. So effectively Garro was the first above all others.
This is stupid >:C Dreadknights are going to just murder my Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons. I had enough problems fighting the Avatar of Khaine and C'tans already.
Puscifer wrote:
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GKIMO.
I think we get closer to the truth behind the origins of the GK geneseed.
Its not impossible to merge, if we consider the GK a last gift to mankind from the creator of the Primarchs and space marines himself.
Why not? Chapters and I bet the original Legions have/had to submit Geneseed both for testing and storage back to Terra(well Mars actually but you know what I mean). Dollars to doughnuts there are vats of Original 20 Legion geneseed sitting around in a cooler somewhere. Plus The Emperor made all this stuff in the first place. Dont you think he kept some smaples of his work, incase he needed to make a few more? Its alot easyer making something when you already have the blueprints and a sample sitting there, than starting agin from scratch.
T-Sons did not FALL to taint of Chaos. T-Sons where driven to Chaos just to survive the Extreamly Over the top punishment, their Gramps dropped on them when their Dad broke Gramps Toy. Im just trying to be clear here. You have a geneseed that has an inherant psykic mastery built in. You want to make a whole new army or psykic masters. Wouldnt it be logical to use that material? DG are not know for their over abundance of psykers, so mabye they are not the geneseed to base this new army on.
I dont remember Garro have any psykic powers.
Mabye He does start the GK's, mabye he does become the first GrandMaster. I dont know and wont untill the new codex and its retconned fluff comes out. But the rumor said GK's were based on traitor geneseed. The best traitor(or any loyalist marine for that matter) geneseed to help in the creation of a Psyker army would be T-Sons.
10x paladins each with warding staves + apothecary for FNP in addition to other random upgrades
2+ invul with 4+ fnp, 2 wounds and wound allocation insanity! woo.. Put a librarian in there with Mindbades and might of titan so you could be S6 +2d6 armor pen and the enemy is at -1T
All I gotta say is once people get their hands on the official copy they'll agree that this codex might as well be renamed "Codex: Why the hell do normal space marines exist? "
BA and SW do certain things much better... but wow this GK book does *everything* better
If youre worried about anti tank you can take henchmen and equip them with 12 melta guns.. FOR less than the cost of a *single* tactical squad
The tithe is installed after Heresy, when the effects of the uncontrolled usage of geneseed are known.
Speeding up the creation process had elevated those into the Legions that never should have become Space Marines.
Now, tightening the control was neccessary.
So we got geneseed, a rumor and GW calling GK a gift of Big E...
Thus a possible connection between a codex release and BL audio-books is a good start.
I think Discipline, psi-power, martial prowess and resilience are part of the ingredients to create GK's.
So: T-son + DG = psi with less mutation, WE for CC and UM for control. Maybe IW and or EC too. Unlikely to have AL , NL or WB inside.
shrike wrote:
I know what I'm talking about- the past 2 loyalist codexes have deepstriking land raiders, dreadnoughts hanging onto flying bricks, space marines riding wolves, MC stats on a 25mm base, and canis WOLFborn of the space WOLVES, wielding WOLF claws and riding a WOLF, backed up by thunderWOLF cavalry. Now there's another loyalist codex with armoured armoured armoured armour, more flying bricks, and even a SC that lets you take 2W terminators as troops. And none of this is at all cheesy?
I wouldn't call that "cheesy" I'd just call it stupid. Cheesy would indicate it's overpowered or undercosted in some way, and much of it pays a decent price. Deep striking Land Raiders are terrible, since they just get closer to the melta guns and power klaws. Thunderwolves are really good, but not broken, and their assumed size is big enough to get a good bead on them. Mephiston pays for his ludicrous stats, and even then he doesn't have an invulnerable save. Stormravens are pretty good on paper, but they're huge easy targets that will never get cover unless they're moving 24" a turn and losing out on much of their shooting. Even then, I'm sure those 2 wound Terminators will be expensive as hell.
Is this stuff silly? Yes. Is much of it stupid? Possibly. Is it all cheesy, broken, beardy, overpowered, etc? For the most part no.
Sorry - I for one cannot agree with the Thousand Sons Gene being used for the GK.
1) Their Gene was the most unstable and prone to mutation above all others.
2) GK recruit powerful psykers into their ranks as mentioned above.
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GKIMO.
This!
To even try to claim the GKs use TS geneseed is preposterous.
It wouldnt be allowed so close to the heresy with what was known the 1ksons legion did then.
As for the TS being driven to chaos that is BS, they fell long before that withough even knowing it, their psychic "companions" that helped them "develope" their psychic powers "fled" the second the Emperor came close and they were meddling with, communicating with and being manipulated almost at will by the ruinous powers.
What was so tragic with the whole TS deal was them not knowing they did wrong and the Emperor not explaining it but trusting Magnus would know better.
The GK recruit young promising psychers, end of the story. This is what´s been done and hinted in both in the fluff and in BL books.
As for SM librarians those are selected from promising recruits on black ships as well as found amongst normal recruits.
The sole purpose of the librarians during the selection process (aspirants before initiation) is to sense a psychic potential.
Very, very few SM develope late psychic abilities and so to say, catch the librarians of guard.
To maintains safety the process of finding the ones with psychic potential and measure their worth is done at start, not in the middle of the SM creation process. If this as the practice no SM chapters would ever survive due to the insane amount of geneseed and organs being wasted by giving them (and they are rare) to un screened initiates!!!!
As for the grey knights they are close to terra and have ties with the =I=, they can get whatever they want so finding physically powerful individuals who are ALREADY screened and tested for psychic potential is a piece of cake. They have direct access to the black ships as they arrive at terra and amongst those are hundreds of thousands of screened psychers just waiting to be allocated to the Imperium.
The recruitment mechanism for the GKs is even better then for the ultras if anything.
Claiming otherwise that TS are used as GKs is as silly as saying the modern day imperial fists actually use the death guard geneseed sicne they are so tough and stubbord, geez.
Alright boys, those pics leaked from heresy online we too small and too low quality, and frankly, we deserve better
I took some time to enlarge them and run some enhancement filters and levelling on them... it's not a miracle or anything, but this should be a bit easier to see -
Sorry - I for one cannot agree with the Thousand Sons Gene being used for the GK.
1) Their Gene was the most unstable and prone to mutation above all others.
2) GK recruit powerful psykers into their ranks as mentioned above.
3) Other than Death Guard (Thanks to Garro) and the Emperor, according to the fluff, there shouldn't be any other genestock. I can see the viability of the genestock coming from the survivors of Istvaan III as they were the only Traitor Marines of that era to resist the taint of Chaos and that would make them the perfect GKIMO.
This!
To even try to claim the GKs use TS geneseed is preposterous.
The GK were founded by the surviving loyalists of traitor legions. This is heavily implied and there is no alternate implied in any background. The loyalists were composed of mostly Death Guard, with a few World Eaters and Thousand Sons amongst them.
ColdSadHungry wrote:Reading around on other forums and blogs and stuff, it seems that =I= only forces will not be possible as henchmen are not a part of the force organisation chart.
Yes, you can move them to troops from elites so looks like they can hold objectives etc but do not count towards the required minimum number of troops. Which means that you will HAVE to take grey knights in your army.
I don't understand this line of thinking?
The rule book says you must have 1 HQ and 2 Troops. If you take Cortez, Henchmen become Troops. Yes they don't take up a force org slot, but they're still troops. Have two of the squads and you have a legal list. Or am I wrong?
Yes, you have an HQ and 2 Troops, but you don't have two Troops FOC SLOTS, which is what the BRB is actually telling you to do.
I can't see them counting as troops being the case, I could see it as the rule counting them as scoring, not a troops choice if they don't take up a FoC
Automatically Appended Next Post: And besides, you don't just need two troops, the way it shows you is the two darkened boxes in the FoC diagram, meaning they must be two troops taking slots in the Foc (and of corse a HQ)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MajorTom11 wrote:Alright boys, those pics leaked from heresy online we too small and too low quality, and frankly, we deserve better
I took some time to enlarge them and run some enhancement filters and levelling on them... it's not a miracle or anything, but this should be a bit easier to see -
I wonder what the third bottom weapon for the dreadkinght is there's obviously a psycannon, incinerator and a huge NFW, but what is the bottom one?
MajorTom11 wrote: I wonder what the third bottom weapon for the dreadkinght is there's obviously a psycannon, incinerator and a huge NFW, but what is the bottom one?
Kanluwen wrote:I'm distinctly seeing "psycannon" when I look at the text on the bottom.
Maybe the top one is a psylencer?
It's either the top or bottom one is a psylencer- can someone pwease take the time to superimpose a pycannon next to each?
I think the bottom is the psylencer...it's just a hunch...
the bottom one is two words...hmm...
raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.
This is wong
There I fixed it for you. Just kidding.
Let look at this logicly in fluff. First you have to find a pre-Teen that has the psykic gene in them. Then they have to undergo all the same trials and testing to become a Standard SM recuit. From the fluff we know that mabye one or two in a hundred make it past this part. But lets be generous and say its 5. Now they have to undergo the surgerey and impantation of the genenseed and extra organs. The fluff says that we lose even more recuits in this phase of the trials. So agin being gernerous lets say 3 make it this far. Then its off to the Libraians to test and train and attempt to master their psykic abilitys. Fluff there says that many dont make it here, because they cant learn control of their powers. Well you cant have a Super enhanced psyker running around lose can you, so your gona have to put him down. Now we have a single Psyker recuit thats ready to take on the mantle of a PAGK.
So in this situation, what geneseed would you use? Ultramarine? I dont think so. They have a stable and reliable geneseed but you need something with a bit of extra oomph to it. Well lookie here we have this whole big vat of geneseed that helps enhance and control psykic abilitys built in. Mabye we shouldnt use it though. The last guys who did went bad. Well they didnt really go bad they were sortof foreced to go bad to survive after their boss made a bad decision and their Grand Dad decided to kill them for it. So I bet if we monitor these new guys a bit more and mabye keep their Gramps from trying to kill them, I bet they would work out just fine.
Luckily they have the mechanism for gathering said psychicly active teens in place: The black ships.
Kanluwen wrote:I'm distinctly seeing "psycannon" when I look at the text on the bottom.
Maybe the top one is a psylencer?
It's either the top or bottom one is a psylencer- can someone pwease take the time to superimpose a pycannon next to each?
I think the bottom is the psylencer...it's just a hunch...
raverrn wrote:Not really. GK recruit psykers - they have the power before the geneseed part.
This is wong
There I fixed it for you. Just kidding.
Let look at this logicly in fluff. First you have to find a pre-Teen that has the psykic gene in them. Then they have to undergo all the same trials and testing to become a Standard SM recuit. From the fluff we know that mabye one or two in a hundred make it past this part. But lets be generous and say its 5. Now they have to undergo the surgerey and impantation of the genenseed and extra organs. The fluff says that we lose even more recuits in this phase of the trials. So agin being gernerous lets say 3 make it this far. Then its off to the Libraians to test and train and attempt to master their psykic abilitys. Fluff there says that many dont make it here, because they cant learn control of their powers. Well you cant have a Super enhanced psyker running around lose can you, so your gona have to put him down. Now we have a single Psyker recuit thats ready to take on the mantle of a PAGK.
Chapter recruitment drives appear to happen about 1x/generation (of normal humans) in the case of those which recruit off of multiple worlds.
The Black Ships are bringing in boatloads of psyker potential every month. Psykers are incredibly rare, psykers fit for space marine training even more so, but the IoM has in place infrastructure capable of screening a population in the multiple trillions. Given that sort of a recruitment pool, one-in-a-billion chances are realized 8 times a year.
Mantle wrote:I wonder what the third bottom weapon for the dreadkinght is there's obviously a psycannon, incinerator and a huge NFW, but what is the bottom one?
The bottom one is the Heavy Psycannon, the middle one the Heavy Incinerator, the top one is the Gatling Psilencer (rumoured to be 12 shot S5) and the sword is the Nemesis Greatsword, and with the Nemesis Daemonhammer and the Personal Teleporter, that would be all the rumoured upgrades of the Dreadknight. At its base cost, he comes with nothing but his fists.
Well if the psylencer is a high rate of fire weapon (which I think was rumored) then that is probably it, having two barrels and all, but the top one is a psycannon because of its large barrel.
The top one is a "gatling psilencer", which does actually make a kind of sense since it looks like it's two barrels(at least) with a support around it..
Mantle wrote:I wonder what the third bottom weapon for the dreadkinght is there's obviously a psycannon, incinerator and a huge NFW, but what is the bottom one?
The bottom one is the Heavy Psycannon, the middle one the Heavy Incinerator, the top one is the Gatling Psilencer (rumoured to be 12 shot S5) and the sword is the Nemesis Greatsword, and with the Nemesis Daemonhammer and the Personal Teleporter, that would be all the rumoured upgrades of the Dreadknight. At its base cost, he comes with nothing but his fists.
Ahh posted just after, I cant see a barrel between the two parts on the bottom weapon
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am talking about the weapon layed horizontally
Quick question, does the GK Storm Raven have the same weapon options as the BA one? I assume it would what with the kit being out already but we never know...
For this base costs hes better than any nid MC already.. and 50 pts cheaper
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Quick question, does the GK Storm Raven have the same weapon options as the BA one? I assume it would what with the kit being out already but we never know...
yeah exactly the same weapons.. just renamed so its not Blood Skies but Shadow skies and not blood missiles but psi-strike missiles
Redemption wrote:Can't make it more clear than this.
Edit: well, except for the red text and jpg artifacts combination...
Ahh k, cheers, I thaught it was the other way round because I always expect a psycannon to have a huge barrel, and thaught we were getting mixed up haha
Kanluwen wrote:But hey, how about that terrible Dreadknight model?
I like it Though one of the first thing I'll be doing is tinkering with the kit to see how I can get a more dynamic pose going.
Edit: For anyone wondering about the Dreadknight, it's not 130 points for the "awesome spew fire and psycannon bolts all over" version:
Commissar Ciaphas Cain wrote:-Mordrak and Draigo do have The Grand Strategy
-Psycannons and Incinerators do not ignore Invuls as far as I know. Psybolt ammo seems to, though.
-No vehicles/walkers have access to Psycannons, Incinerators, and their ilk, outside of the Dreadknight which is a Monstrous Creature anyways.
-Dreadknight Options: (135 pt Base)
-Heavy Psycannon - 40
-Gatling Psilencer - 35
-Heavy Incinerator - 30
-Nemesis Daemonhammer - 10
-Nemesis Greatsword - 25
-Personal Teleporter - 75
-Also, Dreadknight Armour: 2+/4++ -Dreads(115 pts)/Ven Dreads (175 pts): Weapons are the same as they've ever been for a Space Marine Dreadnought. Fancy GK vehicle upgrades including Psybolt and Psyflame ammo.
The GK were founded by the surviving loyalists of traitor legions. This is heavily implied and there is no alternate implied in any background. The loyalists were composed of mostly Death Guard, with a few World Eaters and Thousand Sons amongst them.
That I agree with but I was talking about the current GKs and their geneseed.
As fair it is to assume a few traitor legion members (its implied, not proven) started the grey knights
I really dont think mars was allowed to open up the whole of the reserve 1ksons geneseed banks to enlarge the GK chapter.
As for the current geneseed its still a mystery and a good one at that.
Kanluwen wrote:I'm distinctly seeing "psycannon" when I look at the text on the bottom.
Maybe the top one is a psylencer?
It's either the top or bottom one is a psylencer- can someone pwease take the time to superimpose a pycannon next to each?
I think the bottom is the psylencer...it's just a hunch...
There's a Psycannon in Dreadnought form.
Pretty much matches the bottom one, I think.
On further inspection, the top one looks more like a mini-gun/assault cannon-style gatling weapon- lots of smaller barrels, while the bottom one looks like one fat barrel.
Still curious how one can design Carnifexes and then the dreadknight while keeping a straight face..
For the same price as a fex with heavy venom + bio plasma you get a guy with heavy psycannon and either psilencer or incincerator.. In addition you get +2ws, +1Int, +1BS, +1T, +1 armor save and a 4+ invul save
Ontop of that you also get some amazing psychic powers, preferred enemy against demons and some anti-psyker defense
THen again, it seems like GW has total contempt for the nid book anyhow
Commissar Ciaphas Cain wrote:-Mordrak and Draigo do have The Grand Strategy
-Psycannons and Incinerators do not ignore Invuls as far as I know. Psybolt ammo seems to, though.
-No vehicles/walkers have access to Psycannons, Incinerators, and their ilk, outside of the Dreadknight which is a Monstrous Creature anyways.
-Dreadknight Options: (135 pt Base)
-Heavy Psycannon - 40
-Gatling Psilencer - 35
-Heavy Incinerator - 30
-Nemesis Daemonhammer - 10
-Nemesis Greatsword - 25
-Personal Teleporter - 75
-Also, Dreadknight Armour: 2+/4++ -Dreads(115 pts)/Ven Dreads (175 pts): Weapons are the same as they've ever been for a Space Marine Dreadnought. Fancy GK vehicle upgrades including Psybolt and Psyflame ammo.
I'll be going with a daemonhammer & either psylencer or psycannon.
I hope the psycannon is more anti-tank...
I wonder what the incentive to ever take dreadnoughts will be.
I mean a ven dread at 175p and a normal dread at somewhere around 125p with close to no mobility that doesnt cost an additional 200p and no survivability (a puny ork rokkit or IG missile will cause it to hide behind terrain our of fear of blowing up).
Both shoot crappy and Cc even worse and for the same cost roughly you can get a dreadknight that does everything better plus being mobile.
So except the anto psycher aura of -4Ld for the ven (however it is supposed to get close to said enemy psycher without spending three tons of extra points is beyond me)
why on earth would anyone want to take a drednought ever again?
Pyriel- wrote:So except the anto psycher aura of -4Ld for the ven (however it is supposed to get close to said enemy psycher without spending three tons of extra points is beyond me)
why on earth would anyone want to take a drednought ever again?
Not quite. The -4 Ld aura is a protection bubble; psykers targeting your units that are within 12" of the dreadnought suffer the Ld penalty. The psyker could be sitting at the other end of the battlefield and he'd still suffer the -4.
Dreadnoughts can also get an equipment that nullifies Perils on themselves, and there's still one more that we don't know about, True Silver Armour.
Mantle wrote:I always expect a psycannon to have a huge barrel
Thats what I mean I see that as two smaller barrels, but I see why it also looks like a big barrel, damn blurry pics , cant wait to see them all in full focus
HERO wrote:
Librarian - 150 points for Lv.2, +50 points for Lv.3
See GM stat line -1 WS -2 BS -1W -1I -1A
Hammer Hand: +1 strength in Close Combat
Warp Quake: Any deepstriking unit that lands within 12" suffers automatic mishap.
Holocaust: S5 AP - Large Blast 12"
Quicksilver: Unit becomes Initiative 10
Warp-Rift: Template that auto removes models from play
The Summoning: A single friendly unit that is anywhere on the table is placed within 6" of the librarian and counts as deepstriking.
Smite: As C:SM Might of Titan: Beginning of librarians assault phase. Unit within 6" gains +1 str and extra D6 armour pen vs vehicles. Bonus is cumulative with hammerhand.
The Shrouding: Opponents shooting phase. All units within 6" gain stealth (minimum 5+ cover in the open).
Mind Blades: Start of any assault phase. One enemy unit within 6" loses 1 toughness for the rest of the assault phase.
Vortex of Doom: As C:SM Sanctuary: Enemy assault phase. Enemy units wishing to assault any Grey Knight within 12" of librarian must make a difficult AND dangerous terrain test.
Psychic Communion (Grandmaster and Captain only): Take a psychic test. If passed, you may modify any reserve rolls by + or -1.
Heroic Sacrafice (Brotherhood Champion only): In assault, when the champion dies take a psychic test. If passed, make one attack against any one model that was in B2B with him. If the attack hits, that model is instantly removed!
Cleansing Flame (Purifiers only): Start of any assault phase. All enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ before any blows are struck with saving throws allowed. Casualties count towards combat resolution.
Astral Aim (Purgation Squad only): Shooting Phase. Unit and attached characters may fire at any unit in range and regardless of line of sight. Target automatically gets a 4+ cover save that cannot be modified.
Reconstruction (Techmarines only): Beginning of techmarine's movement. Re-roll any repair roll.
Fortitude (Vehicle only): At the start of Grey Knight player's turn, removes any shaken or stunned results.
Zone of Banishment (Captain Stern only): During Stern's assault phase. All other models (friend and foe) within 6" make a strength test or are removed from play. Daemons must re-roll passed tests.
and
HERO wrote:
Grand Master Mordrak - 200 points
-6 6 4 4 4 5 4 10 2+
-He has the usual GM equipment plus a MC Daemonhammer (The bigger, nastier version)
-Usual GM rules
-First to the Fray: If he deploys via Deepstrike, he and his unit arrive first turn and does not scatter
-Ghostly Bodyguard: These be Ghost Knights. They count as Terminators (Regular, not Paladin) but have Stealth, one unit only. Mordrak acts as an upgrade character for them until such point as they are all dead. If Mordrak suffers an unsaved wound, at the end of the phase roll a d3. If the result is equal to or greater than his remaining wounds a Ghost Knight appears. You place it in coherent with him and it counts as part of his unit. Default wargear, no upgrades. Placed in B2B contact with the enemy unit Modrak is fighting or within 1" of him otherwise. If you don't have a GK on hand, or there's no room, they don't materialize. It's possible to materialize mid assault apparently, and if the GK does, he can make an attack if the wound was caused by an attack of I5 or higher. If not, he just appears. If Mordrak dies, the Ghost Knights go bye bye.
-Ghost Termies are 32ppm and can take normal termie upgrades.
Edit: Oh, and this:
HERO wrote:Castellan Garran Crowe - 150 points
-Head and Brotherhood Champion of the Purifier Order
-Wielder of The Blade of Antwyr, a super daemon sword that not only attracts heretics and daemons like flies, but tries to corrupt and possess the wielder, thus it was entrusted to the Purifiers to keep safe. Crowe is the only one with the fortitude to keep it under control.
-Stats: 8 4 4 4 2 6 * 10 2+
-150 pts
-The reason for the * on his A slot is because he has the same "The Perfect Warrior" ability that Brotherhood Champs have
-Artificer Armour; Frak, Krak, and Psyk-Out Nades, Storm Bolter; Iron Halo
-The Blade of Antwyr: Close Combat Weapon, but the turn his unit GETS assaulted they gain Furious Charge and re-roll all failed to hit rolls for that Assault Phase
-Master Swordsman: His CC attacks are Rending and Rend on a 4+
-All the rules a regular Broterhood Champ has
-Purifiers are TROOPS with Castellan Crowe
HERO wrote:
Grey Knight Purifier Squad - 120 points for 5 dudes including leader, 5-10max
24ppm after, Purifiers are WS4, have Cleansing Flame, is +1A, +1Ld vs. a GKSS and can take free Incinerators. Their Halberds also cost +2 points instead of +5.
HERO wrote:Cleansing Flame (Purifiers only): Start of any assault phase. All enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer a wound on a 4+ before any blows are struck with saving throws allowed. Casualties count towards combat resolution.
Kirasu wrote:For this base costs hes better than any nid MC already.. and 50 pts cheaper
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Quick question, does the GK Storm Raven have the same weapon options as the BA one? I assume it would what with the kit being out already but we never know...
yeah exactly the same weapons.. just renamed so its not Blood Skies but Shadow skies and not blood missiles but psi-strike missiles
Kirasu wrote:Still curious how one can design Carnifexes and then the dreadknight while keeping a straight face..
Better yet, how is it that Tyranid's multi-wound units can't individualize thier models and thus utilize a fifth edition hallmark (wound allocation) like most other codices can? At least that was a question I had before the Nid FAQ came out .
TBH though, vehicles and transports got a massive boost in 5th edition in terms of survivability and reduced costs/or increased effectiveness whereas MC saw thier costs dramatically rise and thier survivability decrease (with the absense of easy area terrain cover and larger models).
Therefore, I am happy to see a cheap and effective MC come to the table and hope that GW continues this trend.
Pyriel- wrote:
I predict a hard counter to GK terminators and even paladins in the form of the humble SMSS/TH terminator squad.
No matter how I try out some mathammer with equal points the hammer terminators absolutely own any form of "rumored" GK squads in Cc.
Storm bolter shuffle my friend! Non BA/raven guard assault terminators have NO right to catch a squad of GK terminators without eating some psycannon / storm bolter (maybe even incinerator) shots beforehand, which should even out your mathhammer, at least slightly. GK termies will be teleporting onto the battlefield or will be in LRs or storm ravens. BA termies can ride in SRs and have the ability to catch them easily enough, and raven guard users (never seen one) have fleet.
Dont forget paladins have a universal 4++! not as good as a SS but damn close and nice and cheap!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shrike wrote:
I know what I'm talking about- the past 2 loyalist codexes have deepstriking land raiders, dreadnoughts hanging onto flying bricks, space marines riding wolves, MC stats on a 25mm base, and canis WOLFborn of the space WOLVES, wielding WOLF claws and riding a WOLF, backed up by thunderWOLF cavalry. Now there's another loyalist codex with armoured armoured armoured armour, more flying bricks, and even a SC that lets you take 2W terminators as troops. And none of this is at all cheesy?
that is an incredible coincidence that I said pretty much that, and there's alredy a pic for it!
this is what's gone on in the past year or so:
-dreads hanging onto a mini-thunderhawk via a tiny winch that couldn't hold a termie.
-deep-striking land raiders.
-space marines riding giant wolves.
-MC stats on a 25mm base.
-canis wolfborn the space wolf, riding a giant wolf, armed with wolfclaws, backed up by thunderwolf cavalry.
and now armoured armoured armoured armour?!
Jokaero?! Seriously?
first there was Canis Wolfborn the space wolf riding a thunderwolf with wolf claws, then there's DS-ing land raiders, dreads hanging onto mini-thunderhawks and psychicMC stats on a 25mm base, now grey knights are friends with highly intelligent apes building laser guns? GW- to us, it's all:
Canis born the space riding a thunder with claws, then there's DS-ing raiders, hanging onto mini-thunder and psychic stats on a 25mm base, now grey knights are friends with highly intelligent building guns. Stop now, lest we all die (AKA you lose your market).
How are Purifiers justified at their cost? It seems like for four points they get ALOT! I predict they will be the cheese spam of the week if the rumors are true.
Also, any rumors about what Daemons are going to get to counter this? Any bonuses when fighting Grey Knights? As it stands it seems like an uphill battle to say the least; a face stomp seems more likely. I don't see how my army would be able to contend with units that can buff to I10 or hit all my models in B2B before CC starts. Or pull my units into the warp with yet another *sigh* characteristics test. With 6"" range. That I re-roll successful ones. Oh, and all GK get preferred enemy toward Daemons. It's way, way too much.
I just hope my favorite army doesn't insta-lose to the super geared FoTM.
JGrand wrote:How are Purifiers justified at their cost? It seems like for four points they get ALOT! I predict they will be the cheese spam of the week if the rumors are true.
Also, any rumors about what Daemons are going to get to counter this? Any bonuses when fighting Grey Knights? As it stands it seems like an uphill battle to say the least; a face stomp seems more likely. I don't see how my army would be able to contend with units that can buff to I10 or hit all my models in B2B before CC starts. Or pull my units into the warp with yet another *sigh* characteristics test. With 6"" range. That I re-roll successful ones. Oh, and all GK get preferred enemy toward Daemons. It's way, way too much.
I just hope my favorite army doesn't insta-lose to the super geared FoTM.
Though you have to see the flip side of the coin, which was when the daemons got their new book, they were the FOTM and absolutely walked all over GK. Then again..most things did with the old book.
I think the purifiers get brought in line by a couple restrictions: as far as I've seen, they don't have access to psycannon (the main anti-tank for GK's it seems at this point), and they don't have access to personal teleporters (mobility). Also, they don't score unless a special character is taken, which although maybe not much of a restriction, does force you to buy another model to make them troops. Since he (according to rumors) doesn't give out the d3 special rules or modify reserves, you likely will still need to get the other hq as well.
JGrand wrote:How are Purifiers justified at their cost? It seems like for four points they get ALOT! I predict they will be the cheese spam of the week if the rumors are true.
Also, any rumors about what Daemons are going to get to counter this? Any bonuses when fighting Grey Knights? As it stands it seems like an uphill battle to say the least; a face stomp seems more likely. I don't see how my army would be able to contend with units that can buff to I10 or hit all my models in B2B before CC starts. Or pull my units into the warp with yet another *sigh* characteristics test. With 6"" range. That I re-roll successful ones. Oh, and all GK get preferred enemy toward Daemons. It's way, way too much.
I just hope my favorite army doesn't insta-lose to the super geared FoTM.
Deamon are meant to be owned by GK, PERIOD. It's the face stomping every other army thats going to be the problem. I mean why are they better vs psykers now, when the SoB are the psi hunters.
Pyriel- wrote:
I predict a hard counter to GK terminators and even paladins in the form of the humble SMSS/TH terminator squad.
No matter how I try out some mathammer with equal points the hammer terminators absolutely own any form of "rumored" GK squads in Cc.
Storm bolter shuffle my friend! Non BA/raven guard assault terminators have NO right to catch a squad of GK terminators without eating some psycannon / storm bolter (maybe even incinerator) shots beforehand, which should even out your mathhammer, at least slightly. GK termies will be teleporting onto the battlefield or will be in LRs or storm ravens. BA termies can ride in SRs and have the ability to catch them easily enough, and raven guard users (never seen one) have fleet.
Dont forget paladins have a universal 4++! not as good as a SS but damn close and nice and cheap!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shrike wrote:
I know what I'm talking about- the past 2 loyalist codexes have deepstriking land raiders, dreadnoughts hanging onto flying bricks, space marines riding wolves, MC stats on a 25mm base, and canis WOLFborn of the space WOLVES, wielding WOLF claws and riding a WOLF, backed up by thunderWOLF cavalry. Now there's another loyalist codex with armoured armoured armoured armour, more flying bricks, and even a SC that lets you take 2W terminators as troops. And none of this is at all cheesy?
that is an incredible coincidence that I said pretty much that, and there's alredy a pic for it!
this is what's gone on in the past year or so:
-dreads hanging onto a mini-thunderhawk via a tiny winch that couldn't hold a termie.
-deep-striking land raiders.
-space marines riding giant wolves.
-MC stats on a 25mm base.
-canis wolfborn the space wolf, riding a giant wolf, armed with wolfclaws, backed up by thunderwolf cavalry.
and now armoured armoured armoured armour?!
Jokaero?! Seriously?
first there was Canis Wolfborn the space wolf riding a thunderwolf with wolf claws, then there's DS-ing land raiders, dreads hanging onto mini-thunderhawks and psychicMC stats on a 25mm base, now grey knights are friends with highly intelligent apes building laser guns? GW- to us, it's all:
Canis born the space riding a thunder with claws, then there's DS-ing raiders, hanging onto mini-thunder and psychic stats on a 25mm base, now grey knights are friends with highly intelligent building guns. Stop now, lest we all die (AKA you lose your market).
Yes shrike, we get it, stop saying it.
He might of said it alot, but it doesnt make him any less wrong. I honestly am hoping half those rumors are just made up and get tossed out. Because seriously, the basic PAGK would have to cost in the 30s to even all the gak out that they are "getting" its completely BS to a Xenos player the things they are sticking into Imperium codices. And you cannot argue with that
True that, but on the other hand, going on a cheese calling rampage won't change anything, we are just the audience here. From what I can tell (and I am a layperson at best) GK and BA are indeed very powerful, and frustrating if you are on team Xenos and struggling with 'quirky' codexs.
But it bears consideration to remember trying to take away the enjoyment of people who are excited about it won't change anything. No one here is writing the bugger, and at this point, I am sure it is already printed.
Voicing concerns is all good and fair, beating them into the floor so hard it almost seems one is insinuating anyone who uses those armies is a borderline cheater is another thing altogether, and a conversational dead end for the discussion.
Besides I am sure in 5 years all us BA and GK players will be complaining how BT are overpowered and the Necrons are cheaters lol
How are Purifiers justified at their cost? It seems like for four points they get ALOT! I predict they will be the cheese spam of the week if the rumors are true.
To me it is the opposite, how can you justify normal strike knights that cost a lot more for what they do compared to purifyers?
If a purifyer costs 24p and has all those things that do them better then normal 20p knights why should you take normal knights again?
Even with halbeards normal knights cost 25p and are overall STILL worse then purifyers?
Storm bolter shuffle my friend! Non BA/raven guard assault terminators have NO right to catch a squad of GK terminators without eating some psycannon / storm bolter (maybe even incinerator) shots beforehand, which should even out your mathhammer, at least slightly. GK termies will be teleporting onto the battlefield or will be in LRs or storm ravens. BA termies can ride in SRs and have the ability to catch them easily enough, and raven guard users (never seen one) have fleet.
Dont forget paladins have a universal 4++! not as good as a SS but damn close and nice and cheap!
I see your point but SM terminators (and other) dont exactly wade on foot through the table towards your shuffling GK terminators.
I deepstrike 10 hammernators right in front of the GK termie line or whatever, they get one turn to shoot at them with the GKT stormbolters and their one psycannon, they inflict one member loss and then get to charge.
Count a bit for yourself, equal points, even if you remove 1-2 hammernators due to shooting, they will absolutely own your paladins or regular GKTs (as they should since every unit needs some counter somewhere). That 75p apot upgrade is worth nothing for example since all wounds that bypass terminator armour are not subject to FNP.
Take 10 naked paladins with an apot, that is 625 points, for this I get almost 16 hammer terminators. No matter how well the paladins were shooting and even get the charge they will be wiped as will regular GKTs.
My point is that it will be fairly easy to stop all those nasty paladinns etc in Cc with a basic SM force.
Hammernators seem to be the ultimate cheap-O hard counter against GK terminators of all kinds. Add Vulkan into the equation and the GKs have a steep uphill battle.
Deamon are meant to be owned by GK, PERIOD. It's the face stomping every other army thats going to be the problem. I mean why are they better vs psykers now, when the SoB are the psi hunters.
Right, in the fluff that's all well and good, but when my army which I spent hundreds of dollars on and countless hours painting is reduced to a multi hour game of rock-paper-scissors I get a bit mad. There shouldn't be an auto-win counter to any army. I don't mind if GK have special anti-daemon stuff, I mind that GK have a one sided advantage versus Daemons. I think there HAS to be something to balance that. I don't even take Greater Daemons because I feel they already suffer so much in the current environment. Against these "remove from play", anti-daemon, ignoring inv save, characteristic testing monsters they are worthless. Hopefully there is something Daemons get when they battle GK.
To me it is the opposite, how can you justify normal strike knights that cost a lot more for what they do compared to purifyers?
If a purifyer costs 24p and has all those things that do them better then normal 20p knights why should you take normal knights again?
Even with halbeards normal knights cost 25p and are overall STILL worse then purifyers?
That was exactly my point, I think they seem too good compared to normal GK. +4 points should not be enough to get another attack, let alone everything else. Someone else did break down the some of the downsides but the price still seems a bit too light.
I see no reason why the Grey Knights are not simply, and wholly, descended from the Emperor. No genestock? It's sitting there on the throne.
Grey Knights wielding daemon weapons is incredibly stupid. I hope that's untrue.
The 'psilencer' if as described (a weapon the uses the wielder's psychic force as ammo) is nothing new. The "psi-cannon" was something inquisitors have been running around with since at least second edition - long before the Kai gun. I think, if I remember correctly, it was described as a shoulder-mounted weapon; and fairly small (think Predator).
KingCracker wrote:He might of said it alot, but it doesnt make him any less wrong. I honestly am hoping half those rumors are just made up and get tossed out. Because seriously, the basic PAGK would have to cost in the 30s to even all the gak out that they are "getting" its completely BS to a Xenos player the things they are sticking into Imperium codices. And you cannot argue with that
It's foolhardy to say this now rather than six months post-release. Remember all the hand-wringing over Blood Angels and Nids when some of their rumors were being thrown out? Now Nids are a decent codex and Blood Angels, while a bit flashy in terms of rules, aren't exactly considering that bad, either. I seriously doubt there will be the same level of angst over this codex in a few months than now when all we have are echoes of truth and nothing seen for ourselves yet.
Deamon are meant to be owned by GK, PERIOD. It's the face stomping every other army thats going to be the problem. I mean why are they better vs psykers now, when the SoB are the psi hunters.
Right, in the fluff that's all well and good, but when my army which I spent hundreds of dollars on and countless hours painting is reduced to a multi hour game of rock-paper-scissors I get a bit mad. There shouldn't be an auto-win counter to any army. I don't mind if GK have special anti-daemon stuff, I mind that GK have a one sided advantage versus Daemons. I think there HAS to be something to balance that. I don't even take Greater Daemons because I feel they already suffer so much in the current environment. Against these "remove from play", anti-daemon, ignoring inv save, characteristic testing monsters they are worthless. Hopefully there is something Daemons get when they battle GK.
Yeah they should, there called Chaos SM. But by put them into 2 books they wrecked the army. You should REALLY be bitching to GW about that dumb ass move.
Pyriel- wrote:
I see your point but SM terminators (and other) dont exactly wade on foot through the table towards your shuffling GK terminators.
I deepstrike 10 hammernators right in front of the GK termie line or whatever, they get one turn to shoot at them with the GKT stormbolters and their one psycannon, they inflict one member loss and then get to charge.
Count a bit for yourself, equal points, even if you remove 1-2 hammernators due to shooting, they will absolutely own your paladins or regular GKTs (as they should since every unit needs some counter somewhere). That 75p apot upgrade is worth nothing for example since all wounds that bypass terminator armour are not subject to FNP.
Take 10 naked paladins with an apot, that is 625 points, for this I get almost 16 hammer terminators. No matter how well the paladins were shooting and even get the charge they will be wiped as will regular GKTs.
My point is that it will be fairly easy to stop all those nasty paladinns etc in Cc with a basic SM force.
Hammernators seem to be the ultimate cheap-O hard counter against GK terminators of all kinds. Add Vulkan into the equation and the GKs have a steep uphill battle.
I know I face opponents that deep strike 10 man TH/SS units 'right next' to my units all the time .
One can make up a scenario in equal points, in the right situation and math hammer a unit dead. What matters though, is;
What do people usually take in armies?
How does that unit normally interact on the table top?
Usual build is 5 TH/SS in a LR. Maybe two groups of those in separate raiders. The question should be; Can a GK army built in this INSERT THEME HERE fashion, handle the following?
Right, in the fluff that's all well and good, but when my army which I spent hundreds of dollars on and countless hours painting is reduced to a multi hour game of rock-paper-scissors I get a bit mad. There shouldn't be an auto-win counter to any army. I don't mind if GK have special anti-daemon stuff, I mind that GK have a one sided advantage versus Daemons. I think there HAS to be something to balance that. I don't even take Greater Daemons because I feel they already suffer so much in the current environment. Against these "remove from play", anti-daemon, ignoring inv save, characteristic testing monsters they are worthless. Hopefully there is something Daemons get when they battle GK.
Hopefully deamon armies will get a bonus rule like without numbers or all deamons get preferred enemy GK back.
Those would be fairly simple boosts to implement.
I wouldnt like to see even less deamon armies out there because of autoloss vs GK.
If you have solutions to those scenarios...you'll have pretty good luck most games...even if it's not on that list. [spoiler]
Yeah you´re right.
Some army builds just slipped through the balance loop.
How on earth so the average army handle a space wolf razorback line or a Vulkan drop pod+locator beacon army with 10-20 DSing hammer terminators.
Yeah they should, there called Chaos SM. But by put them into 2 books they wrecked the army. You should REALLY be bitching to GW about that dumb ass move.
Speak for yourself. I love Chaos Daemons and how they play. They are so incredibly different than anything else out there and provide a real challenge to players who want something more than "move forward with Rhino" armies. I would HATE if they recombined. Now, do I think that players who take mono-god armies and Word Bearers should be able to pick a few Daemons, sure. But to say the whole Daemon army is fundamentally bad is a bit much.
All I'm saying is that I don't think there should ever be an explicit super counter to an army. Whether or not Daemons get a few advantages vs. Gk remains to be seen. But from what I'm looking at so far I don't particularly like.
Yeah purifiers seem a bit undercost.. If you take a GK strike squad with 2 incinerators.. and a purifier squad with 2 incinerators they're the same price. Granted this only works with incinerators but thats still a bit silly considering the purifiers have cleansing flame (crazy power) and +1 attack
Pyriel- wrote:To me it is the opposite, how can you justify normal strike knights that cost a lot more for what they do compared to purifyers?
If a purifyer costs 24p and has all those things that do them better then normal 20p knights why should you take normal knights again?
Even with halbeards normal knights cost 25p and are overall STILL worse then purifyers?
On the other hand, Strike Squads can protect you from deepstrikers, can take psycannons cheaper than Purgation squads, can opt to get teleporters and they don't require a special HQ (I'm really not keen on Castellan Crowe) to be taken as troops. You have a variety of HQ independent characters that also get Cleansing Flame if you want that.
200 points to create a 48" DS-denial area when you have six troop slots anyway is pretty interesting. To be honest, both units are pretty damned good for their points. Purifiers bring more firepower to the front, Strike Squads are more versatile; fielding both seems like the better choice.
It is the Justicars in each squad that is a psyker right? And he is the only one that benefits from the nemesis force weapons right? Or does the regular squad members get power weapons aswell or does it just count like a regular ccw for them?
Every grey knight model has a power weapon basically, but you can only use 1 force weapon per turn.
Basically they are marines who pay more 4 points for the following
force weapon
Storm bolter
+1S psychic power
Anti-DS power
A unit of 10 with decent upgrades will run around 240 points. For those points you get all the following and S5 storm bolters and 2 Heavy4/assault 2 36/18" S7 AP4 rending guns
Is it just me or is rending the exact opposite of what GK should have? Rending gives no advantage vs demons, in fact the opposite is correct. It feels like GW hamfisted rending onto these weapons. Unless that is, they ignore invuln AND are rending. That would be a little nuts, but at least appropriate.
Yeah they should, there called Chaos SM. But by put them into 2 books they wrecked the army. You should REALLY be bitching to GW about that dumb ass move.
Speak for yourself. I love Chaos Daemons and how they play. They are so incredibly different than anything else out there and provide a real challenge to players who want something more than "move forward with Rhino" armies. I would HATE if they recombined. Now, do I think that players who take mono-god armies and Word Bearers should be able to pick a few Daemons, sure. But to say the whole Daemon army is fundamentally bad is a bit much.
All I'm saying is that I don't think there should ever be an explicit super counter to an army. Whether or not Daemons get a few advantages vs. Gk remains to be seen. But from what I'm looking at so far I don't particularly like.
They will probably have the "Without End" Special rule or whatever, the one where your troops cant actually die. Or is that daemonic infestation...ANYWAY!
Other than being humanoid I don't see much similarity between the Atlas (which looks a lot different from the pre-clickytech version) and the blurry pic of the dreadknight. If anything, the Atlas looks more 'Space Marine' than what we can see of the epic due tot he skull and spike motif.
JGrand wrote:All I'm saying is that I don't think there should ever be an explicit super counter to an army. Whether or not Daemons get a few advantages vs. Gk remains to be seen. But from what I'm looking at so far I don't particularly like.
You do realise the irony in that statement?
I am sure by now that you are a well-seasoned enough general to know just how MEQ-Counter the Chaos Daemons codex still is to this day (and you probably remember how DRAMATICALLY OP it was against marines pre-5th edition). The reason for that imbalance (and the only real answer SMs had was LRs) was more then likely due to the fluff supporting that Daemons typically ruin the day of most SM chapters on a good weekly/monthly basis (unless you're Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, then you get it more!).
That same fluff shows scores of GKs decimating those same Daemons, why is that? Because GKs were made to kill Daemons... GW admitted this in the last incarnation of the DH codex by giving daemons some snazzy rules when forced to play against the GKs, to compensate for the obvious vulnerabilities in the codex... if the GKs get them again, that will be nothing more then charity for Daemon players (whose rules I am sure will still apply to other "daemon" ruled units like the Avatar, without the fun bonuses).
TBH you shouldn't need it... for the same reason SM players didn't quit when Codex: Chaos Daemons came out, due to the infrequency of match-ups.
If someone in your gaming group (of friends) is specifically playing GKs to ruin your day as a C:CD player, then they aren't really much of a friend now are they? (not to mention, you can easily limit your on-table interactions with that player.
If you are worried about facing them in a tourny with your army that costs "hundreds of dollars" just don't go to any major tournies where you know that A: Everyone will be playing GKs, or B: Is slated around 1-2 months after the codex release, given the obvious weakness to vehicle-lists in the GK codex, and the current meta-game HEAVILY favoring MECH, I don't think you will have this issue too often (or that if someone is taking the new GK to a tourny, they probably A: Aren't that competitive of a player, so aren't as much as a challenge AND B: Probably aren't tailoring their list for a 30+ member tournement to fight that ~1 C;CD player out there so you should really have little worry)
This really shouldn't be too much of a concern for you in the long run, so 1/8 MEQ armies have rules that counter your Daemons quite well, good thing your rules work pretty well against the other ~90%.
I mean, its not like people aren't playing Nids cause DE counter them, its not like people don't play Orks cause BA/TAU/IG counter them, its not like people don't play IG cause Space Wolves(argueably) count them... the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" aspect of 40K has been around for quite a while now, the new GK codex is no exceptoin.
Quite frankly, I find my self surprised by the LACK of rumors supporting rules that allow the GKs to walk all over Daemons, with the current rules, it seems that a 3xSoulgrinder+Kugath+Taker/Epidemus list would walk all over these guys, and in my world, if Scissors can Beat Rock, then something isn't adding up!
Other then that, still looking foward to playing these guys with my Wolves, I think it will be an interesting match up if I sent some Lone-Wolves after this splendiforus "dread-knight" thingy!
And to be honest, with the high cost of current incarnation Daemonhunters and their reliance on armor saves, Daemon lists still beat them back pretty damn good.
Sure you can cast some powers to keep them from tabling you, but being reduced to a 5++ against flamers of Tzeentch and a lot of ward-rerolling red daemons of blood letting, your expensive grey knights poof pretty quickly.
Thunderfrog wrote:Sure you can cast some powers to keep them from tabling you, but being reduced to a 5++ against flamers of Tzeentch and a lot of ward-rerolling red daemons of blood letting, your expensive grey knights poof pretty quickly.
1. Fateweaver shot by psycannons is wounded on 2s, and has no better than a 4+ cover save. That drops wounds taken from 1/9 to 1/4. If the Vindicaire really does have an invul-removing special round, Fatebomb just left the meta.
2. Mishap within 12" of the casting Librarian or Difficult/Dangerous terrain tests during movement and assault makes getting to GKs a problem. Flamers that can't shoot first turn get pinged by stormbolters.
3. Storm bolter fire from 10 PAGK reduces a 20 model bloodletter squad to 16. Every model wounded on 4+ at I10 reduces 16 to 10. 20-30 preferred enemy attacks at higher I due to terrain or halberds takes 10 down to 5 or 2, if getting charged or charging. Fearless wounds wipe the rest. Bloodletter still kill between 2-7 PAGKs, but you lost 300 points and I've still got a chunk of my 250 left--a big chunk if it was me charging you.
4. Warding Staves are 2++.
I'm not going to try to claim that the sky is falling and daemon players should just sell their armies and quit the game, but GK are definintely not just 'normal marines' that you steamroll in the assault. Psycannons are a huge problem for many of the 'bigger' daemons, and the I10 wound-on-4+ is a huge problem for all of the smaller daemons.
AgeOfEgos wrote:It's hard enough to believe anyone would claim Daemons are competitive in today's meta.
It's incredibly hard to believe anyone would claim Daemons can be competitive against an army...that has inherent special rules...against them.....
Daemon's won 'Ard Boyz against the big OTT armies on the West Coast last year.
I'm not going to argue if Daemons are competitive in a GK thread...I probably should have left that first line out so I'll take responsibility for the response. However, I would strongly urge to search for Redbeard's thoughts on the subjects as he explained it to a higher degree of clarity than I can (Plus I'm sure he has more experience playing them).
KingCracker wrote:He might of said it alot, but it doesnt make him any less wrong. I honestly am hoping half those rumors are just made up and get tossed out. Because seriously, the basic PAGK would have to cost in the 30s to even all the gak out that they are "getting" its completely BS to a Xenos player the things they are sticking into Imperium codices. And you cannot argue with that
It's foolhardy to say this now rather than six months post-release. Remember all the hand-wringing over Blood Angels and Nids when some of their rumors were being thrown out? Now Nids are a decent codex and Blood Angels, while a bit flashy in terms of rules, aren't exactly considering that bad, either. I seriously doubt there will be the same level of angst over this codex in a few months than now when all we have are echoes of truth and nothing seen for ourselves yet.
So remember: chill, not cheese.
You know putting it that way, I do see your point. I remember reading the rumors on Nids and thinking "They fething regenerate?! SERIOUSLY!?!?" And thats not really a big deal. I remember reading about how the doom of malantai can steal wounds and just murder tanks! And sure it does that-ish, but its not as crazy as it was listed. I still think the BA are over powered, but not as bad as the first rumors. And like you said, most of the crap that I dont like about them is just flashy BS. I mean yea, they DS their landraiders. but uhm......they are a sitting duck for a turn
Out of the rumors for the GK that I simply just hate, is the fact that Stern removes models. I dont know WHY GW started tossing in that rule here and there but I just hate it. Why should you just remove models? That is game breaking IMO. You want to show the guy is just a badass thats fine, you can do that easy enough without "removing models" Hell Thraka is in the top 5 most badassed, badasses in the game, and he doesnt just remove models from play.
KingCracker wrote:Out of the rumors for the GK that I simply just hate, is the fact that Stern removes models. I dont know WHY GW started tossing in that rule here and there but I just hate it. Why should you just remove models? That is game breaking IMO.
Stern can remove his own models as well. That's a big thing to keep in mind in lists that can tie up 900 points in 11 dudes.
I think Stern is going to be pretty rare considering his abilities are nothing above and beyond what a normal BC can do, can be beneficial to your opponent (rerolling saves), and have a possibility to instawipe your very own 50 point models off the table.
The two things that need to be confirmed, in my mind, for GK to be declared 'THE BORKEN' or not, are whether warding saves really are 2++ saves that act as power weapons in CC, and even more significant, whether the storm bolter grants a universal +1 attack.
In my mind there's a big difference between PAGK charging/charged getting 30/20 or 20/10 attacks with power weapons.
And 2++ warding staves on 3 models can be the difference between being willing to Scout/Infiltrate 10 Terminators 18 inches away from opponent deployment on T1 and... not being willing to do that.
I am sure by now that you are a well-seasoned enough general to know just how MEQ-Counter the Chaos Daemons codex still is to this day (and you probably remember how DRAMATICALLY OP it was against marines pre-5th edition). The reason for that imbalance (and the only real answer SMs had was LRs) was more then likely due to the fluff supporting that Daemons typically ruin the day of most SM chapters on a good weekly/monthly basis (unless you're Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, then you get it more!).
That same fluff shows scores of GKs decimating those same Daemons, why is that? Because GKs were made to kill Daemons... GW admitted this in the last incarnation of the DH codex by giving daemons some snazzy rules when forced to play against the GKs, to compensate for the obvious vulnerabilities in the codex... if the GKs get them again, that will be nothing more then charity for Daemon players (whose rules I am sure will still apply to other "daemon" ruled units like the Avatar, without the fun bonuses).
TBH you shouldn't need it... for the same reason SM players didn't quit when Codex: Chaos Daemons came out, due to the infrequency of match-ups.
Daemons aren't specifically anti-meq. It's just that the game is so 3+ oriented that smart players have the ability to deal with heavy armored troops in their take all comers lists. My Daemons do fine regardless of army matchup. I think the misconception comes from the fact that Marines are easier to play against because they are seen more and because of this people plan accordingly.
If someone in your gaming group (of friends) is specifically playing GKs to ruin your day as a C:CD player, then they aren't really much of a friend now are they? (not to mention, you can easily limit your on-table interactions with that player.
If you are worried about facing them in a tourny with your army that costs "hundreds of dollars" just don't go to any major tournies where you know that A: Everyone will be playing GKs, or B: Is slated around 1-2 months after the codex release, given the obvious weakness to vehicle-lists in the GK codex, and the current meta-game HEAVILY favoring MECH, I don't think you will have this issue too often (or that if someone is taking the new GK to a tourny, they probably A: Aren't that competitive of a player, so aren't as much as a challenge AND B: Probably aren't tailoring their list for a 30+ member tournement to fight that ~1 C;CD player out there so you should really have little worry)
This really shouldn't be too much of a concern for you in the long run, so 1/8 MEQ armies have rules that counter your Daemons quite well, good thing your rules work pretty well against the other ~90%.
Sure, and I reserve final judgment until the codex comes out. I suppose I just don't like some of the Inv save circumventing and characteristic testing non-sense that GW is leaning toward in general. My main point was that if the army gets preferred enemy and everything else toward my units, I should get at LEAST one small advantage to counteract that. They did it last time. Hopefully they do it this time.
I mean, its not like people aren't playing Nids cause DE counter them, its not like people don't play Orks cause BA/TAU/IG counter them, its not like people don't play IG cause Space Wolves(argueably) count them... the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" aspect of 40K has been around for quite a while now, the new GK codex is no exceptoin.
Quite frankly, I find my self surprised by the LACK of rumors supporting rules that allow the GKs to walk all over Daemons, with the current rules, it seems that a 3xSoulgrinder+Kugath+Taker/Epidemus list would walk all over these guys, and in my world, if Scissors can Beat Rock, then something isn't adding up!
Other then that, still looking foward to playing these guys with my Wolves, I think it will be an interesting match up if I sent some Lone-Wolves after this splendiforus "dread-knight" thingy!
~DAR
Sure, the game is inhirently imbalanced. But that doesn't mean we need specific targets to ensure one sided fights. I just don't know about Soul Grinders. Sure, they would be ok versus Grey Knights but what if you aren't a counter picker? I don't think they have the survivability in the current meta they need to justify a take all comers build. I suppose we will have to see the final product though.
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It's hard enough to believe anyone would claim Daemons are competitive in today's meta.
It's incredibly hard to believe anyone would claim Daemons can be competitive against an army...that has inherent special rules...against them.....
That's just a ridiculous statement. They have very solid advantages in a take all comers environment. If your opponent counterpicks...yes, they will lose. If not, they are viable. See Ard Boyz winner last year for proof.
Is it just me or is rending the exact opposite of what GK should have? Rending gives no advantage vs demons, in fact the opposite is correct. It feels like GW hamfisted rending onto these weapons. Unless that is, they ignore invuln AND are rending. That would be a little nuts, but at least appropriate.
Probably to squeeze in some form of inherited anti mech without having to include non fluffy weapon options like lascannons and meltaguns I think.
The two things that need to be confirmed, in my mind, for GK to be declared 'THE BORKEN' or not, are whether warding saves really are 2++ saves that act as power weapons in CC, and even more significant, whether the storm bolter grants a universal +1 attack.
Its not that simple. A 2++ save is not by default OP nor is pistol counting stormbolters.
It all depends on the point cost.
Vanguard jumppack marines were incredibly OP and broken that is untill we saw what those pieces of crap actually cost in points.
Giving a terminator a 2++ save for 5 points is broken, giving it for 20-30p is balanced and giving it for 40p is UP.
Think about it, you take 5 terminators for 200 points and those are not even upgraded with anything.
Then you spend 75p extra to give 3 of them 2++ saves and then some 20p to give one a psycannon and all of a sudden your 5 terminators cost 300p, die just as easy to small arms fire and STILL have dedicated hardcouter units.
Hardly OP anymore.
And giving just one a 2++ save is almost useless, a plasmacannon or oblit squad will cause 3-6 armour negating wounds easily so you still loose the 4 other guys not having the 2++ and all of a sudden you have one 2++ terminator walking about, hardly any OP threat any more.
The GK OPness vs balance will come from wargear point costs, it will most probably be a tight walk between just affording a few "OP" wargears sprinkled throughout the army to be effective, to much and the army will be useless, to little and you´ll loose serious power but get a lot more models in the army.
AgeOfEgos wrote:Actually, GK Razorspam might be one of the more competitive. They have an inherent power to ignore shaken/stunned...depends on their cost I guess.
Razorbacks do NOT have the fortitude power and cannot get it.. Theyre the only vehicle that does not have it. I think GW thought ahead on that one
AgeOfEgos wrote:Actually, GK Razorspam might be one of the more competitive. They have an inherent power to ignore shaken/stunned...depends on their cost I guess.
Razorbacks DO not have the fortitude power and cannot get it.. Theyre the only vehicle that does not have it. I think GW thought ahead on that one
Ahh, someone did think ahead then . Good catch (to you and whomever wrote the rules)!
I haven't seen anything to stop the Scouting/Teleporting DreadKnights though...they can get the ability right?
It wasn't the cost of Vanguard wargear options that broke Vanguard, it was the cost of their jump packs.
Many of the wargear costs are now known, whether the rumors will match the reality or not is still up in the air, of course. Warding staves look to cost 25 ppm.
For 715 points, you get 10 2 wound GK Terms with 2 psycannons and 2 warding staves. That's a terrifying amount of wound soakage. It shouldn't be very lash-able (Hood, Aegis) and has no reason at all to bunch up for plasma cannons. If Oblits want to get that close to rapid fire plasma, that's fine, you take 2 2++ and 2 5++ and charge them in CC, crushing them utterly.
I'll believe it when I see it. I think its going to be a pretty terrible dex if upgrading your sword to a halberd makes you init 10, thats just stupid! I think that this whole codex has been wish listed to death.
Mantle wrote:I'll believe it when I see it. I think its going to be a pretty terrible dex if upgrading your sword to a halberd makes you init 10, thats just stupid! I think that this whole codex has been wish listed to death.
The 'dreadknight as MC' seems like a bit of a odd decision. It makes sense to make Wraithlords 'special' that they're MCs while Dreadnoughts are vehicles. The Dreadnight seems as much a 'vehicle' as a Sentinel (which has meager crew protection) or similar. I'd think MC should be reserved for things that are 'alive' in some sense, even including wacky Eldar wraithbone constructs and theoretical necron MCs (due to living metal allowing them to 'heal' and react more like a living creature than a machine.
Mantle wrote:I'll believe it when I see it. I think its going to be a pretty terrible dex if upgrading your sword to a halberd makes you init 10, thats just stupid! I think that this whole codex has been wish listed to death.
Halberds are +1I. Dial down the outrage.
haha sorry I thought I saw someone mention I10 further back, but still i'd like to know how a halberd makes you faster than someone with a sword
I think this is the new standard for flexibility in a dex if the rumors are true. you could build a totally offensive army that dumps 3 MC , the Ghost Knight guy, and a Callidus assassin in the enemy's line the first turn and spend the rest of the game in melee, or you could take the slow approach and build nearly unkillable blocks of the toughest troops in the game backed up by shooty units that no one wants to charge. Or, you could split the difference and run hordes of mixed light fighters with bizarre abilities and weapons.
Through it all, there are people just itching for a crack at multi-wound models and units that pack templates for hordes.
I'm sure there will be other archetypes, but on the face of things this codex can do it all. What remains to be seen is what it does best, and what it can do well, and what will be the most cost efficient.
Mantle wrote:haha sorry I thought I saw someone mention I10 further back, but still i'd like to know how a halberd makes you faster than someone with a sword
Just Dave wrote:Upgrading to Halberd is supposed to give you +1 initiative, not +6.
There is a Psychic power that can increase a units initiative to 10 however...
ah yes, I keep forgetting about the PAGK and others getting psychic powers in the new dex
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Balance wrote:
Mantle wrote:haha sorry I thought I saw someone mention I10 further back, but still i'd like to know how a halberd makes you faster than someone with a sword
Perhaps representing greater reach?
I suppose but halberds aren't exactly that much longer, and have a huge blade on the end. It looks like the PAGK are toting some pretty big sanguinary guard sized swords
Just Dave wrote:Well, its (apparently) a Librarian only psychic power that can be cast on other units, but yeah...
As for the +1 initiative on the Halberd? I think it could represent the extra reach, but ultimately is just another different piece of wargear...
that sounds more believable, I can see what you mean by the halberd, when I imagine CC I see the guys already locked swords (or whatever other weapon) in which case a big cumbersome halberd might not be as useful as a sword etc.
Balance wrote: I'd think MC should be reserved for things that are 'alive' in some sense,
Considering that a Dreadknight is pretty much a GKT in the Power Loader from Aliens, I'd say that it's pretty "'alive' in some sense".
Yeah but it's probably got 50% more biomass in total than your average Astartes Dreadnought. When the vastest majority of the model is non-sentient mechanical, I think walker status is more appropriate.
But hey, GW wants flying powerloader armor suits for armor suits. Whatevah.
Just Dave wrote:Well, its (apparently) a Librarian only psychic power that can be cast on other units, but yeah...
As for the +1 initiative on the Halberd? I think it could represent the extra reach, but ultimately is just another different piece of wargear...
Aren't all the nemesis force weapons (of all stripes) supposed to channel the psychic power of their weilder? I suppose you could just assume something about the halberd gives the knights a psychically channeled speed boost..
Yeah but it's probably got 50% more biomass in total than your average Astartes Dreadnought. When the vastest majority of the model is non-sentient mechanical, I think walker status is more appropriate.
But hey, GW wants flying powerloader armor suits for armor suits. Whatevah.
But if it was a walker it'd have to be something like AV 10/12/13 Open-topped, and that would be both stupid and terrible. And they couldn't have their shiny new model backed up by terrible rules, could they?
born the space 