Just Dave wrote:Well, its (apparently) a Librarian only psychic power that can be cast on other units, but yeah...
As for the +1 initiative on the Halberd? I think it could represent the extra reach, but ultimately is just another different piece of wargear...
Aren't all the nemesis force weapons (of all stripes) supposed to channel the psychic power of their weilder? I suppose you could just assume something about the halberd gives the knights a psychically channeled speed boost..
That's a good idea actually, nice thinking!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Platuan4th wrote:
Mantle wrote:I dont know if it has been posted yet but will the dreadknight be having a stat line like a wraithlord or will it have an armor value?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd guss stat line
Considering the 2 posts above yours are specifically about it being a MC, your reading skills are massive fail.
Yes thanks for pointing that out, they weren't there last time I checked the posts
Zefig wrote:But if it was a walker it'd have to be something like AV 10/12/13 Open-topped, and that would be both stupid and terrible. And they couldn't have their shiny new model backed up by terrible rules, could they?
No no no, it'd be AV 10(14)/12(14)/-. The idea would be that the suit made the GK so super psychically charged that he will shoot incoming bullets out of the air, and sword-fan incoming lasers away, and for that reason he'll also be immune to lance rules.
Rear armor is (-) because he will just turn around and swordfan those bullets away, too.
Just Dave wrote:Well, its (apparently) a Librarian only psychic power that can be cast on other units, but yeah...
As for the +1 initiative on the Halberd? I think it could represent the extra reach, but ultimately is just another different piece of wargear...
that sounds more believable, I can see what you mean by the halberd, when I imagine CC I see the guys already locked swords (or whatever other weapon) in which case a big cumbersome halberd might not be as useful as a sword etc.
Reach, greater blocking suface, more ways it can be wielded... A staff is actually one of the most effective weapons against a sword - and a halberd is just a staff with a blade on the end. No need for a psychic speed boost. "Real world" weapon-on-weapon technique explains it just fine.
Balance wrote:Other than being humanoid I don't see much similarity between the Atlas (which looks a lot different from the pre-clickytech version) and the blurry pic of the dreadknight. If anything, the Atlas looks more 'Space Marine' than what we can see of the epic due tot he skull and spike motif.
Really? Cause to me the length of the legs, the shape of the torso and the positioning of the arms is almost spot on.
Zefig wrote:But if it was a walker it'd have to be something like AV 10/12/13 Open-topped, and that would be both stupid and terrible. And they couldn't have their shiny new model backed up by terrible rules, could they?
No no no, it'd be AV 10(14)/12(14)/-. The idea would be that the suit made the GK so super psychically charged that he will shoot incoming bullets out of the air, and sword-fan incoming lasers away, and for that reason he'll also be immune to lance rules.
Rear armor is (-) because he will just turn around and swordfan those bullets away, too.
Or possibly just stop them in mid air with his mind, like neo from the matrix
Balance wrote: I'd think MC should be reserved for things that are 'alive' in some sense,
Considering that a Dreadknight is pretty much a GKT in the Power Loader from Aliens, I'd say that it's pretty "'alive' in some sense".
Yeah but it's probably got 50% more biomass in total than your average Astartes Dreadnought. When the vastest majority of the model is non-sentient mechanical, I think walker status is more appropriate.
But hey, GW wants flying powerloader armor suits for armor suits. Whatevah.
It is odd. I would generally say the difference between a suit being MC and a suit being a Vehicle lies in "what armor protects the driver"... if the suit has armor and it is protecting the driver it should be a vehicle, but if the driver relies only on his own armor than it is merely supplementing his capabilities.
That said people who've said it should be open top etc... forget that the precedent of Landspeeders is that they aren't open topped because of their crew wearing power armor. This really only cloudies the situation.
Balance wrote: I'd think MC should be reserved for things that are 'alive' in some sense,
Considering that a Dreadknight is pretty much a GKT in the Power Loader from Aliens, I'd say that it's pretty "'alive' in some sense".
Yeah but it's probably got 50% more biomass in total than your average Astartes Dreadnought. When the vastest majority of the model is non-sentient mechanical, I think walker status is more appropriate.
But hey, GW wants flying powerloader armor suits for armor suits. Whatevah.
It is odd. I would generally say the difference between a suit being MC and a suit being a Vehicle lies in "what armor protects the driver"... if the suit has armor and it is protecting the driver it should be a vehicle, but if the driver relies only on his own armor than it is merely supplementing his capabilities.
Then comes the Penitent Engine and throws all our theories out the window...
Really, I think GW doesn't have a set definition of what should be what, it's all "what feels right" to them.
Platuan4th wrote:
Then comes the Penitent Engine and throws all our theories out the window...
Really, I think GW doesn't have a set definition of what should be what, it's all "what feels right" to them.
Except PEs were released 8 years and 2 editions ago, so probably don't figure into current design theory. That being said, I think the second sentence is probably pretty true and I'm not sure that is a bad thing.
pretre wrote:
Except PEs were released 8 years and 2 editions ago, so probably don't figure into current design theory.
And? Eldar Dreadnou... I mean Wraithlords were vehicles in 2nd Ed. Why did they get the upgrade and not other Dreadnoughts?
Because Eldar were the favorite army of the author. I think that should be the case with all the codices, plus another designer or two to keep that first guy properly leashed.
pretre wrote: Except PEs were released 8 years and 2 editions ago, so probably don't figure into current design theory.
And? Eldar Dreadnou... I mean Wraithlords were vehicles in 2nd Ed. Why did they get the upgrade and not other Dreadnoughts?
Because Eldar were the favorite army of the author. I think that should be the case with all the codices, plus another designer or two to keep that first guy properly leashed.
Ah, but who wrote the 3rd edition BGB? The change happened there, not the Eldar book.
Personally, they really ought to crowd-source all new rules. Put out pre-codices, and then reap the tidal wave of free playtesting and feedback. They'd just have to specify that you actually have to PLAY test the rules, and not *only* do armchair analysis (which is fine for some things...but getting a few games in with the proposed change is often more informative).
VoidAngel wrote:Personally, they really ought to crowd-source all new rules. Put out pre-codices, and then reap the tidal wave of free playtesting and feedback. They'd just have to specify that you actually have to PLAY test the rules, and not *only* do armchair analysis (which is fine for some things...but getting a few games in with the proposed change is often more informative).
They used to(pre-4th, IIRC). GW used to do a ton of outside source Playtesting before they decided it was bad for "security" and the game.
They've done it before. Officially and un-offically. The only reason I can see it not being standard practice is that it probably creates a lot more work for them (reading all that stuff). Most likely, they figure - "Oh FETH this! WE'RE the game designers, and they're fething well going to buy *whatever* gak we put out anyway!"
They decided it was bad because stupid idiots couldnt keep their mouths shut, leaked unfinished versions of the rules and caused a lot of damage with people moaning and whining about the unfinished rules and the effect on their army
That's poor communication. You just print in big red letters at the top: DRAFT! Test rule set! Not carved in stone! Want your feedback so we can fix things if necessary! That's the point! You must be smarter than this line to use these rules!"
VoidAngel wrote:That's poor communication. You just print in big red letters at the top: DRAFT! Test rule set! Not carved in stone! Want your feedback so we can fix things if necessary! That's the point! You must be smarter than this line to use these rules!"
That doesn't do anything.
People are going to whine about rules no matter what, and outside feedback really doesn't help as much as you think it does.
It really would only work if you:
A) Pitted the book against each and every possible permutation of 'power builds' and 'fluff builds'.
B) Did more than one game in that regards.
C) Had an interested and involved playerbase that ranged from the casual gamer who uses a fluffy army to the power gamer who uses a WAAC build no matter what. Mindset does matter in that regard.
Looking at how most 'open betas' for games get feedback(i.e. "It's too hard! Make it easier!" or "This jerk is breaking the game by doing X, why can't I do Y to counter?!", you'd just end up with a codex that varies from stupidly overpowered in some potential builds to woefully underpowered in others.
So basically: what we have now, just without having to have wade through stacks upon stacks of printouts that amount to "Why can't I win more!".
VoidAngel wrote:That's poor communication. You just print in big red letters at the top: DRAFT! Test rule set! Not carved in stone! Want your feedback so we can fix things if necessary! That's the point! You must be smarter than this line to use these rules!"
Stop and think about this 41 page thread and how many posts are 'OMG, GW is the stuuped!', 'Transformers are lame', 'GK are OP', 'I'm selling my army because ISTs/DW Marines/etc aren't included'. Now imagine that every time you try to playtest a codex by 'crowdsourcing'. You'd be unable to try anything new, because as soon as it got out there people would go ape one way or the other. And if you chose not to include that new unit you were trying out? 'Slap in the face!' 'I am betrayed by GW for not including X.' 'I'm selling my armies and moving to Siberia!'
People are going to whine about rules no matter what, and outside feedback really doesn't help as much as you think it does.
It really would only work if you:
A) Pitted the book against each and every possible permutation of 'power builds' and 'fluff builds'.
B) Did more than one game in that regards.
C) Had an interested and involved playerbase that ranged from the casual gamer who uses a fluffy army to the power gamer who uses a WAAC build no matter what. Mindset does matter in that regard.
From a business standpoint in games, balance simply isn't terribly important. It's the illusion of balance, and change that counts (points costs, game patches, army updates, etc). Armies have been imbalanced as long as GW games have existed and people still keep on playing them. When someone finally quits, another two take his place. It's pretty much the same if you look at some popular computer games like World of Warcraft. People complain about class balance but after six years they probably should wake up and realise it's been imbalanced for the whole duration and they've still played with millions of others.
Balance wrote:Other than being humanoid I don't see much similarity between the Atlas (which looks a lot different from the pre-clickytech version) and the blurry pic of the dreadknight. If anything, the Atlas looks more 'Space Marine' than what we can see of the epic due tot he skull and spike motif.
Really? Cause to me the length of the legs, the shape of the torso and the positioning of the arms is almost spot on.
That's pretty minor to me, as both are pretty generic humanoid forms. As has been posted, they're also pretty close to a number of Transformer toys, as well as these old things called 'human beings.'
Platuan4th wrote:
Then comes the Penitent Engine and throws all our theories out the window...
Really, I think GW doesn't have a set definition of what should be what, it's all "what feels right" to them.
Except PEs were released 8 years and 2 editions ago, so probably don't figure into current design theory. That being said, I think the second sentence is probably pretty true and I'm not sure that is a bad thing.
Well the earliest rumors described this as a "Grey Knight Penitent Engine"... I think inevitably the Witch Hunter penitent engine's rules will look alot like the Dreadknights.
True that. WoW is the only game I know of with more whining than 40k. To be fair though, WoW has the capacity to change anything via patch, every week, or even faster if need be. By keeping the game in flux, people are less bummed out when they feel like there is imbalance. 40k updates armies every 6 years or so.
ph34r wrote:True that. WoW is the only game I know of with more whining than 40k...
Whining is the purest form of fandom. It shows you care enough to endure the things that others would just brush off and walk away from a franchise for; whining is the true expression of that sentiment. It shows you care.
Back on the rumors topic, could someone with insider access please post more detailed information on the henchmen squads? It seems like they are the only unit we don't know all the costs for.
1. Fateweaver shot by psycannons is wounded on 2s, and has no better than a 4+ cover save. That drops wounds taken from 1/9 to 1/4. If the Vindicaire really does have an invul-removing special round, Fatebomb just left the meta.
Do Psycannons still ignore Invulsaves? From what I understand, they Don't, but if they do, you should be getting the jump (at least, in terms of ranged fire) on the GKS with Fate Weaver, and something tells me that a giant two-headed bird throwing tons of psy-powers at enimies, and purposely tarpitting itself (IIRC nothing ignores invulsaves in melee) is still a threat to GKs. If you are really worried about a vindicaire, drop near it, and Boon of Mutation it a few times (It shouldn't be too hard to turn to a spawn, and good luck taking a save against a charateristic test!)
sourclams wrote:
2. Mishap within 12" of the casting Librarian or Difficult/Dangerous terrain tests during movement and assault makes getting to GKs a problem. Flamers that can't shoot first turn get pinged by stormbolters.
With the other powers the Libarian can chose from, I don't think this will be an issue (remember, you can only have so many spells!)
sourclams wrote:
3. Storm bolter fire from 10 PAGK reduces a 20 model bloodletter squad to 16. Every model wounded on 4+ at I10 reduces 16 to 10. 20-30 preferred enemy attacks at higher I due to terrain or halberds takes 10 down to 5 or 2, if getting charged or charging. Fearless wounds wipe the rest. Bloodletter still kill between 2-7 PAGKs, but you lost 300 points and I've still got a chunk of my 250 left--a big chunk if it was me charging you.
Again, relying heavily on that Librarian, and for each Librarian they take, thats one less GKGM/Brother-Master/PowerHQ they sacrifice, I don't see GK lists fielding more then 1 librarian, so just keep your bloodletters away from the Harry-Potter marine and you should be good
sourclams wrote:
4. Warding Staves are 2++.
Pity that stave don't work on Boon of Mutation... again, GK definatly have some power-units, they seem to be almost "Space-Wolf Level" Hero-Hammerable... but its nothing a seasoned Daemons player can't handle, and until I see the special rule "Anti-Daemon, at the beginning of the game, roll a D6 for every unit of Daemons in your Opponents Army, on a 4+ that unit is removed from play" I find it hard to swallow that Daemons "suck" against GKs...
sourclams wrote:
I'm not going to try to claim that the sky is falling and daemon players should just sell their armies and quit the game, but GK are definintely not just 'normal marines' that you steamroll in the assault. Psycannons are a huge problem for many of the 'bigger' daemons, and the I10 wound-on-4+ is a huge problem for all of the smaller daemons.
I still feel that GKs will actually work better against DE and Nids then they will Daemons... really the only issues you seem to fear (or at least, the issue you think Daemon players should fear) come from Psychic Abilities, which will be rare if existant, and can be handled by proper list building.... (Remember, the only (honorable) way the GK player can know hes playing daemons is if the daemon player knew he was playing the GKs as well!)
The only real "Daemon-breaking" ability I have seen as of yet is BC-Stern's removal, which to be honest, seems like it will be funnier when used on the Avatar instead of something like Blue-Scribes ((Why the hell are you within 1d6 of stern in the first place?)).
Build Smart, Drop Smart, Play Smart, and you shouldn't have too hard a time bloodcrushing some GKs.
Remember kids! GKs only have like, 2 answers to AV 13 (the soulgrinder!) and that AV 13 just so happens to be toting around a Battle cannon! Did I mention its got a bunch of DDCWs and Fleet?
The "Daemon-breaking" ability you should be concerned about is the fact that an unknown amount of weapons (possibly all) in the GK army can be upgraded to take psy bolts, which ignore invuln.
ph34r wrote:The "Daemon-breaking" ability you should be concerned about is the fact that an unknown amount of weapons (possibly all) in the GK army can be upgraded to take psy bolts, which ignore invuln.
I recall reading the rumors that make them rending instead of Ignoring invul, I don't recall seeing any rumors that state that GKs retain their ability to remove invul, the only rumors I've heard of "Daemon-Breaking" special wargear is some sort of power weapon that ignores the IW on a Daemon, and even that is a rumor I have not heard in the past 2 months (its an OOOOOOOLD rumor with 0 confirmation).
Can anyone say in stone weither or not GKs can still ignore invuls (besides the vindicare obviously!)
ph34r wrote:Back on the rumors topic, could someone with insider access please post more detailed information on the henchmen squads? It seems like they are the only unit we don't know all the costs for.
Henchmen are 3-12 models with NO restrictions on composition (IE you can have 12 warriors with 12 plasma guns). NOt gonna post everything just IMPORTANT stats. Note, all have 1W and none have better than a 5+ save except servitor who has carapace. They do not use up FOC slot.. so with Coteaz you could have like 100 units of 3 guys with 3 meltas who are scoring
Arcoflagellent - WS 5 S5 A4, no armor, FNP cost is same as extra armor
deathcult assassin - WS5 S4 A2/3 5+ invul, power weapon. same cost as above flagellent
banisher (not good) - guardsman stats.. preferred enemy demons, Forces demons within 6" to reroll successful invul saves.. costs same as a grey knight and has an eviscerator or only 5 pts without it
crusader - guardsman with +1WS.. has power weapon + storm shield for same cost as arcoflagellent
mystic - guardsman stats .. hes a locator beacon..cost of a melta gun
Jokearo apething weaponsmith .. horrible stats.. all weaponsmiths in same unit must use same weapon, but may fire either lascannon, heavy flamer or MM.. Before game roll 1 d6 +1 for each additional weaponsmith.. Gives either Rending, +12" range, +1 armor save, 5+ invul save, or lets you roll twice and apply both results to entire unit.. cost of a SM rhino
demonhost - S4, T4, A1.. totally worthless.. 5+ invul save, roll each turn for special abilities.. on a 1-4 you get no useful ability and you wasted points buying this, 5 = 24" S4 AP3 blast, 6 = 24" S8 ap - 1 assault 1.. cost of melta gun
servitor (hes a servitor.. see entries in other 5 books that have him).. you to 3 can have HB or MM for FREE or PC for cost of melta.. base cost of melta gun
Pysker (NOTE hes not a pysker?! for purposes of culexus since he does not have that rule.. just the name.. GG GW).. Similar to IG version, except they have 1 power which is 36" S3* AP6* large blast.. +1S -1AP for each pysker beyond first. If they suffer perils they all basically die.. cost of melta gun
Warrior - guardsman stats (NOT VET).. can have all special weapons and kaskrin gear, can have power fist, sword and SS (At crazy prices.. take crusader instead).. can have power armor and melta bombs.. Costs price of a conscript and plasma/melta are both the same cost of a melta gun
my favorite dumb combo is to take coteaz and 50 servitors with MMs.. yeah half cant fire every turn, but thats still funny
Or take 12 pt warrior squads in chimeras.. So in 1850 you could just run with 10 chimeras for like 670 pts which are all scoring.. Or if youre in a tournament not using Kps just devote 300 pts to get 25 scoring units.. So many silly combos, 150 pts for 30 power weapon attacks from assassins or 40 normal S5 hits from flagellents.
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:[Remember kids! GKs only have like, 2 answers to AV 13 (the soulgrinder!) and that AV 13 just so happens to be toting around a Battle cannon! Did I mention its got a bunch of DDCWs and Fleet?
~DAR
Aside from multi-melta toting hench squads and psycannons that auto-pen on 6's, the Vindicaire is an AP1 sniper rifle. He's got a 92% chance to hit and something like a 95% chance to pen. And then the Dreadknight which will hit on 3's with 7+2d6 to pen. GK has actually got a lot of options vs armor in both shooting and CC.
Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:[Remember kids! GKs only have like, 2 answers to AV 13 (the soulgrinder!) and that AV 13 just so happens to be toting around a Battle cannon! Did I mention its got a bunch of DDCWs and Fleet?
~DAR
Aside from multi-melta toting hench squads and psycannons that auto-pen on 6's, the Vindicaire is an AP1 sniper rifle. He's got a 92% chance to hit and something like a 95% chance to pen. And then the Dreadknight which will hit on 3's with 7+2d6 to pen. GK has actually got a lot of options vs armor in both shooting and CC.
ph34r wrote:Back on the rumors topic, could someone with insider access please post more detailed information on the henchmen squads? It seems like they are the only unit we don't know all the costs for.
Henchmen are 3-12 models with NO restrictions on composition (IE you can have 12 warriors with 12 plasma guns). NOt gonna post everything just IMPORTANT stats. Note, all have 1W and none have better than a 5+ save except servitor who has carapace. They do not use up FOC slot.. so with Coteaz you could have like 100 units of 3 guys with 3 meltas who are scoring
Arcoflagellent - WS 5 S5 A4, no armor, FNP cost is same as extra armor
deathcult assassin - WS5 S4 A2/3 5+ invul, power weapon. same cost as above flagellent
banisher (not good) - guardsman stats.. preferred enemy demons, Forces demons within 6" to reroll successful invul saves.. costs same as a grey knight and has an eviscerator or only 5 pts without it
crusader - guardsman with +1WS.. has power weapon + storm shield for same cost as arcoflagellent
mystic - guardsman stats .. hes a locator beacon..cost of a melta gun
Jokearo apething weaponsmith .. horrible stats.. all weaponsmiths in same unit must use same weapon, but may fire either lascannon, heavy flamer or MM.. Before game roll 1 d6 +1 for each additional weaponsmith.. Gives either Rending, +12" range, +1 armor save, 5+ invul save, or lets you roll twice and apply both results to entire unit.. cost of a SM rhino
demonhost - S4, T4, A1.. totally worthless.. 5+ invul save, roll each turn for special abilities.. on a 1-4 you get no useful ability and you wasted points buying this, 5 = 24" S4 AP3 blast, 6 = 24" S8 ap - 1 assault 1.. cost of melta gun
servitor (hes a servitor.. see entries in other 5 books that have him).. you to 3 can have HB or MM for FREE or PC for cost of melta.. base cost of melta gun
Pysker (NOTE hes not a pysker?! for purposes of culexus since he does not have that rule.. just the name.. GG GW).. Similar to IG version, except they have 1 power which is 36" S3* AP6* large blast.. +1S -1AP for each pysker beyond first. If they suffer perils they all basically die.. cost of melta gun
Warrior - guardsman stats (NOT VET).. can have all special weapons and kaskrin gear, can have power fist, sword and SS (At crazy prices.. take crusader instead).. can have power armor and melta bombs.. Costs price of a conscript and plasma/melta are both the same cost of a melta gun
my favorite dumb combo is to take coteaz and 50 servitors with MMs.. yeah half cant fire every turn, but thats still funny
Or take 12 pt warrior squads in chimeras.. So in 1850 you could just run with 10 chimeras for like 670 pts which are all scoring.. Or if youre in a tournament not using Kps just devote 300 pts to get 25 scoring units
Can I ask, why are the henchmen scoring if they don't occupy any force organisation slot? Is it because of the named character? This does look quite good though, assuming they can get Chimeras. Melta and Plasma Henchmen in Chimeras, supported by 3 Dreadknights and about ten other GK & specialists. Who cares if the humans only got BS3 when you can get like five or six meltas per squad. Quite Alpha Legionesque.
ph34r wrote:The "Daemon-breaking" ability you should be concerned about is the fact that an unknown amount of weapons (possibly all) in the GK army can be upgraded to take psy bolts, which ignore invuln.
I recall reading the rumors that make them rending instead of Ignoring invul, I don't recall seeing any rumors that state that GKs retain their ability to remove invul, the only rumors I've heard of "Daemon-Breaking" special wargear is some sort of power weapon that ignores the IW on a Daemon, and even that is a rumor I have not heard in the past 2 months (its an OOOOOOOLD rumor with 0 confirmation).
Can anyone say in stone weither or not GKs can still ignore invuls (besides the vindicare obviously!)
~DAR
1. It *seems* that psybolt ammo, a unit upgrade, confers the ability to ignore inv saves. Psycannons by themselves don't seem to and the same goes for the incinerator.
2. Fateweaver doesn't care about at all about the Vindicare. Shieldbreaker ammo can only affect Invulnerable saves granted by wargear or items.
Can I ask, why are the henchmen scoring if they don't occupy any force organisation slot? Is it because of the named character? This does look quite good though, assuming they can get Chimeras. Melta and Plasma Henchmen in Chimeras, supported by 3 Dreadknights and about ten other GK & specialists. Who cares if the humans only got BS3 when you can get like five or six meltas per squad. Quite Alpha Legionesque.
Yeah theyre only scoring with Coteaz AND he makes it so there is no limit to # of units.. Normally its 1 squad per inquisitor so 2 per army.. Every unit of 3-12 has access to any dedicated transports (even razorbacks apparently)
Could just do IG vet spam and use 5 meltas in a chimera for 105pts.. This is the prerelease copy im getting info from, so they could add in some kind of restriction but this looks pretty finalized to me.. I have prerelease eldar and only thing they added was Unique to avatar
2. Fateweaver doesn't care about at all about the Vindicare. Shieldbreaker ammo can only affect Invulnerable saves granted by wargear or items.
We only care about the best spammable units for each slot and how many meltas/plasmas and hopefully broken gimmicks we can fit into 1750-1850 points. The mechanised henchmen seem like winners. I can't wait to play against GK with no GK.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think that would be an easier way to spam Razors than servitors that mindlock 1/2 the game. Still...how many points are razors?
SM cost + 5.. That plus 5 would normally be for Fortitude but its not in their unit rules. Perhaps it'll get added in final copy since the pt cost is included.
Kirasu wrote:Jokearo apething weaponsmith .. horrible stats.. all weaponsmiths in same unit must use same weapon, but may fire either lascannon, heavy flamer or MM.. Before game roll 1 d6 +1 for each additional weaponsmith.. Gives either Rending, +12" range, +1 armor save, 5+ invul save, or lets you roll twice and apply both results to entire unit.. cost of a SM rhino
so GK are employing superintelligent ape weaponsmiths? Oh, come on...
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think that would be an easier way to spam Razors than servitors that mindlock 1/2 the game. Still...how many points are razors?
SM cost + 5.. That plus 5 would normally be for Fortitude but its not in their unit rules. Perhaps it'll get added in final copy since the pt cost is included.
Yikes and henchmen squad can be 3? That's like 16-18 Las/Plas Razors isn't it, with points to spare under 2k?
shrike wrote:so GK are employing superintelligent ape weaponsmiths? Oh, come on...
No, the Inquisition is enslaving employing them and sometimes Inquisitors work with Grey Knights. See where I'm going with this?
ah...wait...so the inquisition are employing superintelligent ape weaponsmiths?!
I'd like to see an ordo xenos inquisitor have some...
these sound like IoM oblits, with multiple heavy weapons and such...
this is a big change in fluff- now they're not extinct, and instead of some inquisitors having thier old weapons, now they employ them as armourers...
shrike wrote:so GK are employing superintelligent ape weaponsmiths? Oh, come on...
No, the Inquisition is enslaving employing them and sometimes Inquisitors work with Grey Knights. See where I'm going with this?
ah...wait...so the inquisition are employing superintelligent ape weaponsmiths?!
I'd like to see an ordo xenos inquisitor have some...
these sound like IoM oblits, with multiple heavy weapons and such...
this is a big change in fluff- now they're not extinct, and instead of some inquisitors having thier old weapons, now they employ them as armourers...
It's actually space orangutans But if they don't tickle your fancy, it's at least pretty easy to modify a bunch of Techpriest Enginseers by putting some extra guns on their harness. That's my plan at least, but at 35 points a pop I doubt I'll field them.
Vhalyar wrote:2. Fateweaver doesn't care about at all about the Vindicare. Shieldbreaker ammo can only affect Invulnerable saves granted by wargear or items.
Given GW's inability to define things, I look forward to the argumentation that this will cause. Cybork bodies: item or wargear? Ghazghull's Prophet of the Waaagh!: item or wargear? Hell, Bjorne the Fell-Handed: item or wargear?
Shieldbreaker ammo can only affect Invulnerable saves granted by wargear or items.
Thats interesting.
So a HQ or IC or things like wolf guard wearing a terminator armour (wargear) that grants a 5++ will get the armour shut of the wearer (no more 5++)
while a normal terminator in a terminator squad will not loose the 5++ since his terminator armour is part of him and not granted as a wargear/upgrade?
so GK are employing superintelligent ape weaponsmiths? Oh, come on...
Yes and hordes of deamonhosts and nekkid girls too I am really starting to like the hilarious possibilities this codex will give me to surprise my friends on the table top.
I haven't seen anything to stop the Scouting/Teleporting DreadKnights though...they can get the ability right?
Sure, its called point cost.
With 2 weapons upgrades the thing will be nearly 300p expensive.
I dont look forward to having shootouts with DE venoms filled with poison shots and DE 6p troops that can rapid wound it on 4+ at range but then again psycannons own those pretty much but also cost an arm and a leg.
I see it as pretty much balanced in its whole context.
For 715 points, you get 10 2 wound GK Terms with 2 psycannons and 2 warding staves. That's a terrifying amount of wound soakage. It shouldn't be very lash-able (Hood, Aegis) and has no reason at all to bunch up for plasma cannons. If Oblits want to get that close to rapid fire plasma, that's fine, you take 2 2++ and 2 5++ and charge them in CC, crushing them utterly.
For 700+points I will get almost 20 hammer and stormshield terminators that will absolutely massacre the poor palading in Cc with those two 2++ saves not meaning a damn.
Plus contrary to the paladins they can be in 4 different places contesting objectives.
The so called OP things in the GK codex do have hard counters, its far from a walkover for you just because you took 10 minis that take up more then half your army.
Look at it from another perspective and you´ll see there is more balance then what first met the eyes.
I'll believe it when I see it. I think its going to be a pretty terrible dex if upgrading your sword to a halberd makes you init 10, thats just stupid! I think that this whole codex has been wish listed to death.
Halbeards cost 2+ for most troops and upgrade a models I by +1 to I5.
The I10 upgrade is a librarian power and you need to take at least a 150p libby in order to be able to give a squad I10.
Turn down the OP screams for now please.
haha sorry I thought I saw someone mention I10 further back, but still i'd like to know how a halberd makes you faster than someone with a sword
Longer reach makes you strike before the guy with a short sword, pretty logical if you ask me. (that is until you are actually IN Cc but that is another matter)
I'd think MC should be reserved for things that are 'alive' in some sense, even including wacky Eldar wraithbone constructs and theoretical necron MCs (due to living metal allowing them to 'heal' and react more like a living creature than a machine.
Well dreadnoughts are "alive" in a sense but despite this suffer from all the drawbacks of being AV walkers.
Yeah but it's probably got 50% more biomass in total than your average Astartes Dreadnought. When the vastest majority of the model is non-sentient mechanical, I think walker status is more appropriate.
Same goes with the eldar wraithlord, the "alive" and sentient thing is only a small gem, the rest is a robotic construct.
The SM dreadnought contain a far bigger mass of alive and sentient bio matter but is stuck being a worthless low AV vehicle.
Time to get some justice and get SM a MC too
But if it was a walker it'd have to be something like AV 10/12/13 Open-topped, and that would be both stupid and terrible. And they couldn't have their shiny new model backed up by terrible rules, could they?
And also cost 35 points like a grot killacan which would sell a lot more models but not fit in the GK codex at all.
I guess fluff (although recently invented) won over sales this time.
It is odd. I would generally say the difference between a suit being MC and a suit being a Vehicle lies in "what armor protects the driver"... if the suit has armor and it is protecting the driver it should be a vehicle, but if the driver relies only on his own armor than it is merely supplementing his capabilities.
That said people who've said it should be open top etc... forget that the precedent of Landspeeders is that they aren't open topped because of their crew wearing power armor. This really only cloudies the situation.
As always bringing welcome logic to a debate
Because Eldar were the favorite army of the author. I think that should be the case with all the codices, plus another designer or two to keep that first guy properly leashed.
Thank god we never got Iron Warriordreads with MC rules
IIRC nothing ignores invulsaves in melee
One word...NECRONS!
I predict that when the Necron codex comes with tons of inv negating weapons the GK player base will cry rivers.
(that or the next sisters of battle codex that can shut down all psychic powers at will)
I still feel that GKs will actually work better against DE and Nids then they will Daemons... really the only issues you seem to fear (or at least, the issue you think Daemon players should fear) come from Psychic Abilities, which will be rare if existant, and can be handled by proper list building.... (Remember, the only (honorable) way the GK player can know hes playing daemons is if the daemon player knew he was playing the GKs as well!)
The only real "Daemon-breaking" ability I have seen as of yet is BC-Stern's removal, which to be honest, seems like it will be funnier when used on the Avatar instead of something like Blue-Scribes ((Why the hell are you within 1d6 of stern in the first place?)).
Build Smart, Drop Smart, Play Smart, and you shouldn't have too hard a time bloodcrushing some GKs.
Remember kids! GKs only have like, 2 answers to AV 13 (the soulgrinder!) and that AV 13 just so happens to be toting around a Battle cannon! Did I mention its got a bunch of DDCWs and Fleet?
I agree completely.
The "Daemon-breaking" ability you should be concerned about is the fact that an unknown amount of weapons (possibly all) in the GK army can be upgraded to take psy bolts, which ignore invuln.
That is true but pretty much all armies can be built to counter a specific foe so that works both ways.
In the balanced against-all context you wont see much psyammo being taken.
Those work only against eldar and deamons and in a tournament environment how many GK players will spend 150p of their armies adding psycannon ammo when those will only be worth taking against 1 in 10 opponents.
Yikes and henchmen squad can be 3? That's like 16-18 Las/Plas Razors isn't it, with points to spare under 2k?
Space wolf razorback lines seem to worthless all of a sudden
I was in no way suggesting that GW TAKE every piece of feedback and act on it. That would plainly be beyond stupid. You need filters. Still, you find more things with more eyes on the problem. You just filter and select intelligently.
So I may have missed it somewhere, but do Inquisitors still have access to Terminator armor? And are the transport options for the henchmen just a Chimera, or are Rhinos or even Valks available?
As a current GK player (albeit relatively new to WH40K), I actually like the fact that my army is underpowered because it's challenging to play and I've not yet come across another GK player myself.
I hope that the new GK codex does have flaws and isn't overpowered because I want to be able to beat my opponent using tactics and cunning. And I want to feel the heat of being under pressure and have to face up to difficult situations.
But you're always likely to have opposing players complaining about another army's strengths whilst being blind to the weaknesses. I could argue that Orks are overpowered because they can field so many troops that they can force me to take that many rolls that I simply wont be able to save enough through sheer force of numbers - I could say that all the points I spend on my troops to make them 2+/2++ or whatever is a complete waste because orks will be able to send enough bullets my way that I'll inevitably end up rolling 1s.
I think, though, that in the end if you know your stuff, if you've read the rules and are tactically smart then you always have a chance of winning whereas a complete dumbo might get lucky with an 'overpowered' force but fall short against someone who knows what he's doing no matter what army he may be fielding.
Kanluwen wrote:It really would only work if you:
A) Pitted the book against each and every possible permutation of 'power builds' and 'fluff builds'.
B) Did more than one game in that regards.
C) Had an interested and involved playerbase that ranged from the casual gamer who uses a fluffy army to the power gamer who uses a WAAC build no matter what. Mindset does matter in that regard.
Not true at all. Look at some of Sirlin's articles on casual vs competitive gameplay. To have a balanced game, you only need to worry about the competitive builds, because a game that is balanced at the highest levels of competitive play is also balanced for casual players.
Pretty much every game design textbook or article ever written makes it clear that professional game design is an iterative process, with thorough testing needed at every iteration of the game. There's really no excuse not to do that, if the company or studio cares about making a balanced game. One has to assume that GW doesn't.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think that would be an easier way to spam Razors than servitors that mindlock 1/2 the game. Still...how many points are razors?
If Razors cost 80 points and Chimeras 35 or 40, I just can't see why you'd want Razorspam instead of Chimeraspam, especially as the troops inside can pack as many meltas or plasmas as you like. Chimeras beat Razors 1on1 and you get 2 for the price of one.
I don't like the latest update on henchmen - I don't trust that a unit could have 12 meltaguns ever though. It's not like I was preemptively building an army list or anything, but I still had hopes for that unit. We'll see when the book comes out I guess.
Brother SRM wrote:I don't like the latest update on henchmen - I don't trust that a unit could have 12 meltaguns ever though. It's not like I was preemptively building an army list or anything, but I still had hopes for that unit. We'll see when the book comes out I guess.
Well if any named character is ever going to be banned/restricted at tournaments it's Coteaz, so yeah I wouldn't go and buy 20 Chimeras and 60 Meltagun guys just quite yet either.
sourclams wrote:Given GW's inability to define things, I look forward to the argumentation that this will cause. Cybork bodies: item or wargear? Ghazghull's Prophet of the Waaagh!: item or wargear? Hell, Bjorne the Fell-Handed: item or wargear?
This'll be horrible.
Cyborks are wargear/items, so it would nullify that, but Ghaz and Bjorn's saves come from special rules, not wargear, so they can't be affected.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think that would be an easier way to spam Razors than servitors that mindlock 1/2 the game. Still...how many points are razors?
If Razors cost 80 points and Chimeras 35 or 40, I just can't see why you'd want Razorspam instead of Chimeraspam, especially as the troops inside can pack as many meltas or plasmas as you like. Chimeras beat Razors 1on1 and you get 2 for the price of one.
80 and 35? What? Razors are going to be 45 base, 85 with high tier weapons upgraded. Chimeras are going to be 55. I don't know where you got those numbers. Chimeras still cannot take anything stronger than a multilaser and do not cost half as much as a Razorback.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, servitors still have mind lock? Do weaponsmiths negate this?
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think that would be an easier way to spam Razors than servitors that mindlock 1/2 the game. Still...how many points are razors?
If Razors cost 80 points and Chimeras 35 or 40, I just can't see why you'd want Razorspam instead of Chimeraspam, especially as the troops inside can pack as many meltas or plasmas as you like. Chimeras beat Razors 1on1 and you get 2 for the price of one.
80 and 35? What? Razors are going to be 45 base, 85 with high tier weapons upgraded. Chimeras are going to be 55. I don't know where you got those numbers. Chimeras still cannot take anything stronger than a multilaser and do not cost half as much as a Razorback.
In addition, 1/2 of the Chimeras will hold mind-locked servitors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pyriel- wrote:[Vulkan drop pod+locator beacon army with 10-20 DSing hammer terminators.
I've never seen that army or even an army list centered around 20 DSing TH/SS Terminators. Big, expensive, non-mech units of TH/SS Terminators have many drawbacks...which is why you don't see them.
Again, anyone can come up with a "Beat this unit" point match...it's not difficult. It's not difficult because it doesn't factor in;
How viable such an army build is against an array of opponents
How movement works on the table top
DSing
etc...
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think that would be an easier way to spam Razors than servitors that mindlock 1/2 the game. Still...how many points are razors?
If Razors cost 80 points and Chimeras 35 or 40, I just can't see why you'd want Razorspam instead of Chimeraspam, especially as the troops inside can pack as many meltas or plasmas as you like. Chimeras beat Razors 1on1 and you get 2 for the price of one.
80 and 35? What? Razors are going to be 45 base, 85 with high tier weapons upgraded. Chimeras are going to be 55. I don't know where you got those numbers. Chimeras still cannot take anything stronger than a multilaser and do not cost half as much as a Razorback.
At 85 vs 55 points, I'll choose Chimera every single time. It means 5 Lasbacks have to go against 7.73 Chimeras, and that fight isn't going to be even close. What does 'anything stronger than a multilaser' even mean? The multilaser is very well suited against enemy AV10/AV11 vehicles. The lascannon on the Razorback is as overpriced as heavy weapons in this game get, and if the embarked troops have their hands full of meltaguns the lascannon doesn't serve any necessary role. Lastly, what's this talk about Servitors? I'm talking about the Henchman Warriors/IGmen in Chimeras, not the braindead Servitors.
If you want to have a chimera vs razorback fight, the razorback player can just go assault cannon and win every time for less points.
My response was more confusion over your off points values.
My Inquisition will ride chimeras.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think that would be an easier way to spam Razors than servitors that mindlock 1/2 the game. Still...how many points are razors?
If Razors cost 80 points and Chimeras 35 or 40, I just can't see why you'd want Razorspam instead of Chimeraspam, especially as the troops inside can pack as many meltas or plasmas as you like. Chimeras beat Razors 1on1 and you get 2 for the price of one.
80 and 35? What? Razors are going to be 45 base, 85 with high tier weapons upgraded. Chimeras are going to be 55. I don't know where you got those numbers. Chimeras still cannot take anything stronger than a multilaser and do not cost half as much as a Razorback.
At 85 vs 55 points, I'll choose Chimera every single time. It means 5 Lasbacks have to go against 7.73 Chimeras, and that fight isn't going to be even close. What does 'anything stronger than a multilaser' even mean? The multilaser is very well suited against enemy AV10/AV11 vehicles. The lascannon on the Razorback is as overpriced as heavy weapons in this game get, and if the embarked troops have their hands full of meltaguns the lascannon doesn't serve any necessary role. Lastly, what's this talk about Servitors? I'm talking about the Henchman Warriors/IGmen in Chimeras, not the braindead Servitors.
7 Chimeras v. 5 LasRazors would actually be very close. Given LasRazors have 12" on the Chimeras, so we'll give them first volley and assume the Chimeras are able to range after that;
5 shots = 4.4 hits after twin linked
4.4 hits = 2.9 pens
3ish pens = one likely blown up, two either blown up/missing a weapon/immob/not shooting
4 Chimeras fire back
12 shots = 6 hits
1 pen, 1 glance = One maybe blown up/missing weapon/immob, another probably not shooting
3 Razor shots = 2.6 hits after twin linked
2.6 hits = 1-2ish pens, which means another chimera is likely blown up/missing weapon and another is not shooting
3 Chimeras fire back......etc. I don't feel like math hammering it all the way out (and some of my above might be off, quick math)....but it would likely be very close with the edge perhaps going to the Razors. Even more so if they position on opposing flanks to make a chimera expose side armor (whereas the Razors don't care about their flanks).
All that said, I can see an argument for either one of the tanks....
I've never seen that army or even an army list centered around 20 DSing TH/SS Terminators. Big, expensive, non-mech units of TH/SS Terminators have many drawbacks...which is why you don't see them.
Again, anyone can come up with a "Beat this unit" point match...it's not difficult. It's not difficult because it doesn't factor in;
How viable such an army build is against an array of opponents
How movement works on the table top
DSing
etc...
You made my point for me.
Ergo; taking 10 paladins and claiming they are OP is futile since all the other factors that count in will count as big nerfs to them.
We wont see many if any GK armies consisting of Dragio and 10 beefed up paladins with some cheap riffraff as filler since those will be very ineffective.
We could see armies with several 3-paladin squads and Dragio leading them plus support, that sounds far more effective.
As for the 20 DSing SS/TH terminators I use that all the time (well not 20 but 10-15) together with supporting units in pods. Worls wonders against most opponents but that is not the point of this thread.
I've never seen that army or even an army list centered around 20 DSing TH/SS Terminators. Big, expensive, non-mech units of TH/SS Terminators have many drawbacks...which is why you don't see them.
Again, anyone can come up with a "Beat this unit" point match...it's not difficult. It's not difficult because it doesn't factor in;
How viable such an army build is against an array of opponents
How movement works on the table top
DSing
etc...
You made my point for me.
Ergo; taking 10 paladins and claiming they are OP is futile since all the other factors that count in will count as big nerfs to them.
We wont see many if any GK armies consisting of Dragio and 10 beefed up paladins with some cheap riffraff as filler since those will be very ineffective.
We could see armies with several 3-paladin squads and Dragio leading them plus support, that sounds far more effective.
As for the 20 DSing SS/TH terminators I use that all the time (well not 20 but 10-15) together with supporting units in pods. Worls wonders against most opponents but that is not the point of this thread.
I think deep paladin units led by Dragio will be very effective against a multitude of opponents. They're Nobz....but better.
Unless there is a specific clause that says you need 2+ purifiers/terminators/PAGK/paladins in an army, you will be able to take Corteaz, and then take Henchmen squads as your only required troops. Of course, with a no GK army you would be limited to Henchmen, rhinos/razors/chimeras/landraiders, assassins, and inquisitors. This isn't really a bad thing though, as though Henchmen would be the bulk of your army, you can easily make them into special weapon shooting squads, servitor shooting squads, crusader assault squads, warrior assault weapon squads, funky psyker squads, etc. This book looks to be much better for pure inquisition armies than the previous, with the minor disappointments of no BS4 stormtroopers, and having to take Corteaz (you can just counts as that anyway though).
AgeOfEgos wrote:I think deep paladin units led by Dragio will be very effective against a multitude of opponents. They're Nobz....but better.
Nobz were good because they could tubro boost and then assault the next turn. They were super resilient to blasts and had a solid invuln save. Terminators have to derp around in a circle with only d6 inches of spreading out for a turn.
The Cortez Inquisition army sounds pretty darn good if there are no restrictions on henchmen. Will have to see this to believe it. The old book had restrictions on only 3 warriors and only 3 servitors so you couldn't have squads with 10 melta guns or plasmas.
Have a few questions for the rumor mongers.
What are the psychic hood options? Do Grandmasters, Brother Captains and Inquisitors still have options to buy psychic hoods like they did in the old book or do you have to buy a librarian?
Can Storm Raven's carry Dreadknights?
Can Storm Ravens get scout or outflank somehow?
Are there any fast attack options other then the Storm Raven?
ph34r wrote:Unless there is a specific clause that says you need 2+ purifiers/terminators/PAGK/paladins in an army, you will be able to take Corteaz, and then take Henchmen squads as your only required troops. Of course, with a no GK army you would be limited to Henchmen, rhinos/razors/chimeras/landraiders, assassins, and inquisitors. This isn't really a bad thing though, as though Henchmen would be the bulk of your army, you can easily make them into special weapon shooting squads, servitor shooting squads, crusader assault squads, warrior assault weapon squads, funky psyker squads, etc. This book looks to be much better for pure inquisition armies than the previous, with the minor disappointments of no BS4 stormtroopers, and having to take Corteaz (you can just counts as that anyway though).
I'm liking the sound of an Ordo Hereticus force; with Inquisitorial Chimeras and Inquisitorial Mobs with Meltaguns. Some other stuff too. I'll have pure Grey Knights for another army; and then pick up some Malleus and Xenos Inquisitors, since I dont really need to change much of my Mobs to get 3 armies out of it. (Malleus, Hereticus and Xenos pure. Then Grey Knights. 4 armies; one Inq codex? not bad)
Time to roast some space puppies and some Lost and the Damned.
Vhalyar wrote:2. Fateweaver doesn't care about at all about the Vindicare. Shieldbreaker ammo can only affect Invulnerable saves granted by wargear or items.
Given GW's inability to define things, I look forward to the argumentation that this will cause. Cybork bodies: item or wargear? Ghazghull's Prophet of the Waaagh!: item or wargear? Hell, Bjorne the Fell-Handed: item or wargear?
This'll be horrible.
All wargear. Assassin saves? item. Daemonic Save? Item. Iron Halo? Wargear. Fateweaver? Sadly, item.
More or less is if the creature was born with an INV save, then it has it as an item. It is argueable for Thraka, but its just avoiding the ability to negate daemonic saves.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I think deep paladin units led by Dragio will be very effective against a multitude of opponents. They're Nobz....but better.
Nobz were good because they could tubro boost and then assault the next turn. They were super resilient to blasts and had a solid invuln save. Terminators have to derp around in a circle with only d6 inches of spreading out for a turn.
That certainly isn't the reason Nobz are good...as most are loaded in a Battlewagon now. Nobz are good because;
They have 2 wounds
They can be uniquely outfitted
They have FNP They are nasty in HTH They count as troops
Paladins have all of those qualities, except better saves, better invs and access to a better transport.
There is a trend in 5ths assault units and that trend is units that can survive a round of shooting after they wipe a unit. TWC, Nobz, TH/SS Terms, Bloodcrushers...all share certain qualities. 2 wounds, wound allocation and survivability after they wipe a unit.
The only thing that will kill these guys in shooting is a gakload of AP weaponry. They are essentially immune to anything AP 3 and up.
ph34r wrote:If you want to have a chimera vs razorback fight, the razorback player can just go assault cannon and win every time for less points.
My response was more confusion over your off points values.
My Inquisition will ride chimeras.
AssBacks cost the same amount as Lasbacks and therefore are not cheaper than Chimeras.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
All that said, I can see an argument for either one of the tanks....
Yes, and of course to help your case you decided to equip all of your Chimeras with heavy flamers instead of heavy bolters.
Additionally, let's not forget the fact that 8 AV12 tanks are more durable against a wide variety of opponents than 5 AV11 tanks.
All that said, I can see an argument for either one of the tanks....
Yes, and of course to help your case you decided to equip all of your Chimeras with heavy flamers instead of heavy bolters.
Well, the Chimera would likely have to move the first 1/2 turns to range the LasRazor before it could sit still to shoot it's hvy bolter/Multi-Las....and BS 3 Heavy Bolters that need 6's to glance does not impress coming turn 3....
Regardless, as I stated and you quoted, I can see an argument for either one of the tanks.
Kirika wrote:The Cortez Inquisition army sounds pretty darn good if there are no restrictions on henchmen. Will have to see this to believe it. The old book had restrictions on only 3 warriors and only 3 servitors so you couldn't have squads with 10 melta guns or plasmas.
Have a few questions for the rumor mongers.
What are the psychic hood options? Do Grandmasters, Brother Captains and Inquisitors still have options to buy psychic hoods like they did in the old book or do you have to buy a librarian?
Can Storm Raven's carry Dreadknights?
Can Storm Ravens get scout or outflank somehow?
Are there any fast attack options other then the Storm Raven?
Vhalyar wrote:2. Fateweaver doesn't care about at all about the Vindicare. Shieldbreaker ammo can only affect Invulnerable saves granted by wargear or items.
Given GW's inability to define things, I look forward to the argumentation that this will cause. Cybork bodies: item or wargear? Ghazghull's Prophet of the Waaagh!: item or wargear? Hell, Bjorne the Fell-Handed: item or wargear?
This'll be horrible.
All wargear. Assassin saves? item. Daemonic Save? Item. Iron Halo? Wargear. Fateweaver? Sadly, item.
More or less is if the creature was born with an INV save, then it has it as an item. It is argueable for Thraka, but its just avoiding the ability to negate daemonic saves.
Uh, no. Fateweavers save is not an item-it is an ability. An iron halo, or a storm shield, or anything you upgrade is an item. If the Vindicare does take away invul saves granted by items, as it is written it will not take away daemonic saves. Even if it should, being in the anti-daemon codex, the wording suggests that it will not. Will have to wait and see on this, but as it is written in the forums, the shieldbreaker will not remove Fateweaver's or any other daemons' saves: except those who have Iron Hide. I can't speak for Ghazghull or any other ork, but I will speak on behalf of the daemons. Fluffwise I think it should take away-but as it is written here, it shouldn't.
edit-forgot we were talking strictly "invul save" here-ignore the Iron Hide portion
ph34r wrote:If you want to have a chimera vs razorback fight, the razorback player can just go assault cannon and win every time for less points.
My response was more confusion over your off points values.
My Inquisition will ride chimeras.
AssBacks cost the same amount as Lasbacks and therefore are not cheaper than Chimeras.
Good point, I always forget that because nobody ever takes them. Regardless, the math for chimera vs LC razor is there as you can see.
Also chimeras should be counted as fitting heavy flamers because as they are more effective transports they should be always moving.
That certainly isn't the reason Nobz are good...as most are loaded in a Battlewagon now. Nobz are good because;
They have 2 wounds
They can be uniquely outfitted
They have FNP They are nasty in HTH They count as troops
Paladins have all of those qualities, except better saves, better invs and access to a better transport.
There is a trend in 5ths assault units and that trend is units that can survive a round of shooting after they wipe a unit. TWC, Nobz, TH/SS Terms, Bloodcrushers...all share certain qualities. 2 wounds, wound allocation and survivability after they wipe a unit.
The fundamental difference being that while the 1+ nobs in their little tank are not as rock hard as the 10 paladins in their (what transport carries 10 termies again?)
the orks can have 150 more boys for support and objective grabbing whereas the paladin army has...well.
I still think the paladin squad will be ineffective if taken in full and effective if taken in small units but with a very big risk factor of getting kicked if meeting a hardcounter unit like hammernators on the table.
As it should be might I add since no single unit should be able to walk over everything else.
Can Storm Ravens get scout or outflank somehow?
Are there any fast attack options other then the Storm Raven?
Librarian
No
So no psychic hoods for all any more. That´s fine, they get Ld damping units in the form of ven dreadnoughts instead.
But surely the stormraven can get the scout rule from a grandmasters special D3 rule?
Pyriel- wrote:But surely the stormraven can get the scout rule from a grandmasters special D3 rule?
Nope, it's limited to Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures and Walkers.
Henchmen Warbands, Independent Characters and Ghost Knights cannot have Grand Strategy used on them.
Nope, it's limited to Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures and Walkers.
Henchmen Warbands, Independent Characters and Ghost Knights cannot have Grand Strategy used on them.
Damn, that pretty much spelled the death of the GK stormraven.
With the BAs you can have a cheaper dread and a cheaper squad inside and thus can more afford to have the thing blown up by a lousy IG missile launcher and such, as for the GKs with squads and such being more costly and the rest of the army being smaller they can ill afford to have a first turn or DSing stormraven blown up before it delivers its payload.
Is there any chance in the GK army to increase the survivability of the stormraven?
That certainly isn't the reason Nobz are good...as most are loaded in a Battlewagon now. Nobz are good because;
They have 2 wounds
They can be uniquely outfitted
They have FNP They are nasty in HTH They count as troops
Paladins have all of those qualities, except better saves, better invs and access to a better transport.
There is a trend in 5ths assault units and that trend is units that can survive a round of shooting after they wipe a unit. TWC, Nobz, TH/SS Terms, Bloodcrushers...all share certain qualities. 2 wounds, wound allocation and survivability after they wipe a unit.
The fundamental difference being that while the 1+ nobs in their little tank are not as rock hard as the 10 paladins in their (what transport carries 10 termies again?)
the orks can have 150 more boys for support and objective grabbing whereas the paladin army has...well.
I still think the paladin squad will be ineffective if taken in full and effective if taken in small units but with a very big risk factor of getting kicked if meeting a hardcounter unit like hammernators on the table.
As it should be might I add since no single unit should be able to walk over everything else.
I've never stated taking 10 man Paladin squads would be a good idea, I believe Sourclams threw that number out there. I think 6-7 will be a typical load out, all unique for allocation with a few staves...all of which will fit in a LR. These discussions always break away though to people adding additional units (150 boyz) while the GK can add 135 point DreadKnights, 20 pt PAGK in rhinos, etc etc. Which is why ultimately these discussions are futile.
For giggles though, you want to see how strong 10 Paladins would be? 150 boyz charge them and let's say for gaks/giggles that 100 manage to get within 2" for attacks (Impossible but hey for fun).
That's 400 attacks.
200 hits
100 wounds
Unit of 10 paladins, each takes 10 saves.
Each paladin fails 1.6 saves initially.
Then 0.8 saves after FNP.
Which means the Paladin player didn't lose a model...lol. Movie Marines indeed!
KingCracker wrote:Out of the rumors for the GK that I simply just hate, is the fact that Stern removes models. I dont know WHY GW started tossing in that rule here and there but I just hate it. Why should you just remove models? That is game breaking IMO.
Stern can remove his own models as well. That's a big thing to keep in mind in lists that can tie up 900 points in 11 dudes.
I think Stern is going to be pretty rare considering his abilities are nothing above and beyond what a normal BC can do, can be beneficial to your opponent (rerolling saves), and have a possibility to instawipe your very own 50 point models off the table.
The two things that need to be confirmed, in my mind, for GK to be declared 'THE BORKEN' or not, are whether warding saves really are 2++ saves that act as power weapons in CC, and even more significant, whether the storm bolter grants a universal +1 attack.
In my mind there's a big difference between PAGK charging/charged getting 30/20 or 20/10 attacks with power weapons.
And 2++ warding staves on 3 models can be the difference between being willing to Scout/Infiltrate 10 Terminators 18 inches away from opponent deployment on T1 and... not being willing to do that.
My point still stands, weather he can instagib his own units or not. The ability of just removing minis is ridiculous. Im still hoping that much of the rumors for them is just that, rumors. Im getting rather annoyed with SM getting uber dexes, while everyone else just kindda gets the scraps
Fetterkey wrote:Thanks to wound allocation, that's (thankfully) not really how it works, unless every single model is differentiated.
It appears, given the rumors we have, that differentiation will be possible on Paladins...which means that's how it would work. To add to that, at this point there is no question that such abuse is by design as well. They are basically using the wound allocation rules to give units another unique perk without writing special rules for it.
ductvader wrote:Just making sure....because for all other purposes he has always counted as a Grand Master...including the new codex's supposed "Grand Strategy" rule
Pyriel- wrote:But surely the stormraven can get the scout rule from a grandmasters special D3 rule?
Nope, it's limited to Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures and Walkers.
Henchmen Warbands, Independent Characters and Ghost Knights cannot have Grand Strategy used on them.
What about vehicles?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just realised if we allow 4 points per model upgrades to the 20ppm PAGK, you will be able to fit 50 in a 1300 list (1500 with a 200 point HQ) !
Thats not a bad force. Bland as hell but it could whoop the ass of an ork horde.
Pyriel- wrote:But surely the stormraven can get the scout rule from a grandmasters special D3 rule?
Nope, it's limited to Infantry, Jump Infantry, Monstrous Creatures and Walkers.
Henchmen Warbands, Independent Characters and Ghost Knights cannot have Grand Strategy used on them.
What about vehicles?
It says limited to...and vehicles aren't listed there...(^_^)
For giggles though, you want to see how strong 10 Paladins would be? 150 boyz charge them and let's say for gaks/giggles that 100 manage to get within 2" for attacks (Impossible but hey for fun).
That's 400 attacks.
200 hits
100 wounds
Unit of 10 paladins, each takes 10 saves.
Each paladin fails 1.6 saves initially.
Then 0.8 saves after FNP.
Which means the Paladin player didn't lose a model...lol. Movie Marines indeed!
Heh, that was kind of fun
Yeah, paladins are pretty much immune to small arms fire and normal Cc.
It´s the powerfist type attacks that hardcounter these guys no matter if a few ward saves are included or not.
5 paladins (fit in a LR), add 2 ward saves and an apot this unit goes up to 485p. Over 500 if a psycannon is taken.
Now other units and other support aside since those are on equal point terms (and as you said, units ABC vs units DEF is futile)
these paladins face up with a cheaper hammernator squad (for example I use 10 all the time).
Thats without anyone getting charge for the sale of averages 2 dead hammernators before they strike back causing 6 wounds in return.
This means 3 dead paladins, no apot FNPs apply, no wound allocating away 1w each apply etc, the unit is hardcoutered by another and much cheaper and v e are y common unit.
All silly examples aside, my point is that the GK codex, well at least some of the most insanely sounding and "OP" units like paladins, are pretty much balanced in an overall context.
Now as I am about to go buy 2 stormravens for the upcoming GK codex, does anyone know of some logical way to actually use them with less of the fear of having it blow up before it even reaches where it is supposed to be?
Say, stormraven
+
10 GK squad
+
HQ + dread
= around 700p. (what´s the point loading it up half full, better to have that dread and a decent squad inside and maybe HQ as well).
800 points sound way to much to be trusted with one AV12 flyer that needs to sit&fly exposed (with 4+ cover save) for at least 2 turns before it can do anything good.
Yeah, paladins are pretty much immune to small arms fire and normal Cc.
It´s the powerfist type attacks that hardcounter these guys no matter if a few ward saves are included or not.
5 paladins (fit in a LR), add 2 ward saves and an apot this unit goes up to 485p. Over 500 if a psycannon is taken.
Now other units and other support aside since those are on equal point terms (and as you said, units ABC vs units DEF is futile)
these paladins face up with a cheaper hammernator squad (for example I use 10 all the time).
Thats without anyone getting charge for the sale of averages 2 dead hammernators before they strike back causing 6 wounds in return.
This means 3 dead paladins, no apot FNPs apply, no wound allocating away 1w each apply etc, the unit is hardcoutered by another and much cheaper and v e are y common unit.
All silly examples aside, my point is that the GK codex, well at least some of the most insanely sounding and "OP" units like paladins, are pretty much balanced in an overall context.
Well, given that you would charge out of your Land Raider at 10 TH/SS Terms on foot....I guess you deserve to lose your Paladins...
There is no way anyone can tell if the GK codex is balanced. We are pissing in the wind over rumors and even if they were solid, we can only guess given our past experiences playing the game. Playing trumps all our theories.
I think I read that GK Stormraves cannot transport Dreads, not sure though.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I think I read that GK Stormraves cannot transport Dreads, not sure though.
The Stormraven can carry Dreadnoughts.
The Stormraven cannot carry Dreadknights. It's not like the Knight needs a 200 point deathbox to move around anyway.
Personally I can't see much of a use for Stormravens and will pass on them. For the cost, Mordrack and 10 customizable Ghost Knights seem vastly safer, on top of deepstriking on turn one without scatter.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I think I read that GK Stormraves cannot transport Dreads, not sure though.
The Stormraven can carry Dreadnoughts.
The Stormraven cannot carry Dreadknights. It's not like the Knight needs a 200 point deathbox to move around anyway.
Ahh ok. Can you confirm this combination;
Give Dreadknights Teleporter
Grandmaster gives them scouting
They scout 30" using their teleporter move
or
They scout 12" using their regular move
AgeOfEgos wrote:Ahh ok. Can you confirm this combination;
Give Dreadknights Teleporter
Grandmaster gives them scouting
They scout 30" using their teleporter move
or
They scout 12" using their regular move
Both of those legal or?
I can't give you a definite answer, I just happen to track the various leaks very closely. But so far nothing has indicated that it would be impossible.
I wouldn't build my dream army around this yet though, it's possible that the wording in the final version of the codex will explicitly prohibit that.
After all, it would make vanilla Dreadknights + Personal Teleporters able to punch the hell out of anything on the first turn.
Hopefully there's some as-yet undisclosed element that makes that list illegal, since it seems like it would make many (most?) current lists totally invalid except under special circumstances.
ph34r wrote:So is anyone else feeling this army list?
Coteaz - 150p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
3 warriors, 2 with flamer - 22p
razorback with las/plas - 80p
1986p total
That's 18x razorgoon squad for you following along at home.
What? What does Cortez let you do, take Warriors as any slot or something? My god, that list is....nasty. Although LC generally aren't reliable against AV14, that many would do something. And the reali-life monetary factor is more mind-boggling than a 9x Vendetta list.
Gavo wrote:What does Cortez let you do, take Warriors as any slot or something? My god, that list is....nasty. Although LC generally aren't reliable against AV14, that many would do something. And the reali-life monetary factor is more mind-boggling than a 9x Vendetta list.
Makes Henchmen Warbands scoring and removes the limit on the number that can be taken.
Gavo wrote:What does Cortez let you do, take Warriors as any slot or something? My god, that list is....nasty. Although LC generally aren't reliable against AV14, that many would do something. And the reali-life monetary factor is more mind-boggling than a 9x Vendetta list.
Makes Henchmen Warbands scoring and removes the limit on the number that can be taken.
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
3 warriors with meltaguns - 42p
Chimera w/ multi-laser and heavy flamer- 55
1993p total
I really hope these lists are substantially illegal in some way, because they pretty much beat any currently valid list that I know of.
..Actually, taking an equal amount of las/plas and Assback could be even better! You still have plenty of las to deal with AV14, you still have plenty of plas for MCs, but you have Ass, to deal with hordes better too!
if all of this is true it's going to be a massacre. I can understand the Inquisition build lists... but the Jokaero ... what are they thinking on making Xenos as a choice for the Imperium ? They supposed to be the guys that hate everything wich is not human... instead they still hate Xenos but use them to their own advantage.
I can understand that the background COULD evolve, that books and romance deserves a wider view otherwise the reading is plain and horrible with no quirks, but darn... making a rule like this (if true) means that the Inquisition largely accepts that Xenos to work for Humanity... this is clear heresy.
Yes I know, just wondering if it will be changed in the final version.. Seems to me the purpose of Coteaz was to give people the option to use non-GK lists.. Instead of haiving to use 2 GK squads and spamming chimeras with henchmen thats all
Honestly, if the units don't take a Troops slot, the game will more or less be completely broken, as very few armies *other* than those or certain other gimmicks that can beat those (30 scout bikers) will be valid. Even if the pre-release Codex doesn't have them taking a slot, that kind of thing is bad enough that I think they'd have to fix it in an FAQ.
if all of this is true it's going to be a massacre. I can understand the Inquisition build lists... but the Jokaero ... what are they thinking on making Xenos as a choice for the Imperium ? They supposed to be the guys that hate everything wich is not human... instead they still hate Xenos but use them to their own advantage.
I can understand that the background COULD evolve, that books and romance deserves a wider view otherwise the reading is plain and horrible with no quirks, but darn... making a rule like this (if true) means that the Inquisition largely accepts that Xenos to work for Humanity... this is clear heresy.
The Inquisition have always used Jokaero because they're not hostile to the Imperium, and make better technology than the Imperium ever could. Hell, remember, some Inquisitors use DAEMONHOSTS.
Anyway, I'm loving the idea of proper =][= armies with no GKs. I was worried that they would totally remove all non-GK units, but instead they've made them better!
The Chimera variants are inherently stronger than the Razorback versions, and I say this as an owner of 9 painted Lasbacks.
Too bad it won't really matter all that much, since all of it is due to a special character which will be banned at every single competitive tournament out there.
I was under the impression that you could only have 1 henchmen squad for each Inquisitor. Making that list impossible.
Even if I am incorrect (which is very possible, so many pages on so many forums in so many days @_@ ) I would think taking Cortez would only allow you to make up to 6 Henchmen warbands scoring. Making them troops WITH a limit seems like a more logical choice.
Sentai_Sage wrote:I was under the impression that you could only have 1 henchmen squad for each Inquisitor. Making that list impossible.
Even if I am incorrect (which is very possible, so many pages on so many forums in so many days @_@ ) I would think taking Cortez would only allow you to make up to 6 Henchmen warbands scoring. Making them troops WITH a limit seems like a more logical choice.
This would certainly curb the chimera army from hell list.
Could someone please elaborate further on the whole Coteaz/Inquisitor/Henchmen/Dedicated transport deal?
Specifically...
Is there any restriction on henchmen squads? Or is it just "they become troops"?
Is there a limit on henchmen squads per inquisitor?
Can henchmen take dedicated transports?
ph34r wrote:Can henchmen take dedicated transports?
Mwa ha ha! They called me mad when I took 2 whirlwinds in my Space marine list. Now look. LOOK! Behold your monster melta squads die in DROVES as my large blast templates blast you!
Mwa ha ha!
Mwa... ha... Yeah, they probably do. I don't think anyone else can take Chimeras, in fact.
KOS wrote:... but the Jokaero ... what are they thinking on making Xenos as a choice for the Imperium ? They supposed to be the guys that hate everything wich is not human... instead they still hate Xenos but use them to their own advantage.
... making a rule like this (if true) means that the Inquisition largely accepts that Xenos to work for Humanity... this is clear heresy.
The Inquisition have always used Jokaero because they're not hostile to the Imperium, and make better technology than the Imperium ever could. Hell, remember, some Inquisitors use DAEMONHOSTS.
Even though the Imperium "hates" Xenos, the Imperium draws distinctions between types of Xenos. It would appear that Imperiums concern is mostly with the sentient aliens or aliens that impose immediate threats. In multiple instances its been stated that the Imperium uses xenos-beasts of burden, so its obvious that the Imperiums hatred isn't unconditional. I think the Imperium's perspective on Jokaero would largely be like that, regarded as animals with instinctual inteligence.
At the same time you must also consider that a common theme of the Inquisition is the hubris of radicals believing they can control particular threats to use them against the Imperiums enemies. So that Jokaero is as much a representation of Radical Ordo Xenos as the Daemonhost is of Radical Ordo Malleus.
ph34r wrote:Can henchmen take dedicated transports?
Mwa ha ha! They called me mad when I took 2 whirlwinds in my Space marine list. Now look. LOOK! Behold your monster melta squads die in DROVES as my large blast templates blast you!
Monster melta squads? I don't think anyone in this thread has seriously mentioned large squads of troops all wielding special weapons on foot. In fact, the exact opposite is true, small squads of troops in transports. I think if they could not take transports, people would probably still take small squads.
Ahaha, I dont understand why everyone is so damn excited about "henchmen", I mean, they are really turning into "wenchmen" at this stage, with all the transport whoring going on.
I am excited for the actual power armoured uber troops, not the super crappy spam troops. Wheres the GK spirit people?
Jaon wrote:Ahaha, I dont understand why everyone is so damn excited about "henchmen", I mean, they are really turning into "wenchmen" at this stage, with all the transport whoring going on.
I am excited for the actual power armoured uber troops, not the super crappy spam troops. Wheres the GK spirit people?
Because its the only infantry choice for a 'Pure' Inquisition army. I'm not all that fond of GK; unless its for a Malleus army.
I EXTREMELY doubt that people will be able to fill more then the standard 17 slots, only 1 other army can do this (well 2 if you count spawn spam from C;CD) and even that one has HUGE limiting factors (if all your icons die, all those X units of Daemons become useless).
Will you be able to fill your 6 troop slots with Henchmen with Cortez? sure! But something tells me that the rule will look more along the lines of...
Cortez:
FOC multiplier: If Cortez is Fielded, You may take Inquisitorial Hench Men squads as troops.
There is probably a seperate Special Rule under Inquisitors (including Cortez) that allows you to take an Inquisitorial Henchmen squad as either a Retinue, or a seperate unit (that the Inquisitor is auto joined to at start of battle) that does not eat of a FOC slot.
So at most you are probably gonna get...
HQ: Cortez + Henchmen Squad
HQ: Other Inquisitor lord((which means 0 libararians and no stern)) + Henchman squad
Elite: Ordo X Inquisitor + Henchman squad
Elite: Ordo X Inquisitor + Henchman squad
Elite: Ordo X Inquisitor + Henchman squad
Troop: Henchman squad
Troop: Henchman squad
Troop: Henchman squad
Troop: Henchman squad
Troop: Henchman squad
Troop: Henchman squad
which isnt nearly as scary as 20+ henchmen squads (its actually closer to half that amount, which honestly, if they are gonna take that list instead of the other scary stuff GKs have to offer.)
I mean, it would still be funny as hell to have the above list + 3 Storm Ravens and 3 DreadKnights, but even that is limited... you would basically be playing Guard without Orders!
The question is, if they work like lesser deamons from C:CSM then wouldn't you have to take two "standard" Troops choice as it has been stated they do not take up a FOC slot?
alphaomega wrote:The question is, if they work like lesser deamons from C:CSM then wouldn't you have to take two "standard" Troops choice as it has been stated they do not take up a FOC slot?
Again, I have my extreme doubts that they will work exactally like lesser Daemons or even Chaos Spawn as while GW is prone to F'Ups, they typically don't make the same "Giagantic F'up" twice (see the "toned down" rules for Incubi vs that of the Bloodtalon!)
alphaomega wrote:The question is, if they work like lesser deamons from C:CSM then wouldn't you have to take two "standard" Troops choice as it has been stated they do not take up a FOC slot?
Again, I have my extreme doubts that they will work exactally like lesser Daemons or even Chaos Spawn as while GW is prone to F'Ups, they typically don't make the same "Giagantic F'up" twice (see the "toned down" rules for Incubi vs that of the Bloodtalon!)
I do agree.
But I can see this being a possibility too. Just because the options to have 3 weaponsmiths and 3 henchmen with meltas in transport is going to be game breaking to an extent. That is if henchmen squads can take a transport. That option may be for Inquisitors only.
alphaomega wrote: That is if henchmen squads can take a transport. That option may be for Inquisitors only.
this brings up a very good point, it may be something like:
If a inquisitor takes a unit of Inquititorial henchmen he may also take a Dedicated Transport.
If the above clause is included (and will likely be based on how other similar units work) then everyones "Razor-spam" lists are wasted data on the interwebs!
Kirasu wrote:Jokearo apething weaponsmith .. horrible stats.. all weaponsmiths in same unit must use same weapon, but may fire either lascannon, heavy flamer or MM.. Before game roll 1 d6 +1 for each additional weaponsmith.. Gives either Rending, +12" range, +1 armor save, 5+ invul save, or lets you roll twice and apply both results to entire unit.. cost of a SM rhino
so GK are employing superintelligent ape weaponsmiths? Oh, come on...
Even worse, they're superintelligent ape weaponsmiths that appear to have been hanging around with the Obliterator cults.
Not sure...just excited to build some cc oriented inquisitor mobs that actually work...gks are shooty...always meant to be a shooty army...they guys have stormbolters on their arms...wondering if their meta is going to shift...
Every way i run it...the points only allow for a certain amount of spamming before you begin to hinder yourself...the army has indeed been made super elite...in in my precursor list building i have come to realize that grey knights are not going to change in how difficult they are to play.
Right now each PAGK is 25 points...so make d*** sure you don't let a single guy die if you can help it. Playing more intelligently than the opponent has always been a necessity to win in GKs and I don't think this is going to change. All of these bandwagon-ers are going to realize this quick as they aren't used to GK tactica and let their 70 point superterminators die on the spot.
As for Paladins...to run them you will need to back them up with henchmen mobs...strike forces are just too expensive to fulfill the troop requirements.
Wondering if deamonhosts are heretical forces only and dont allow GKs to be taken...
You raise a good point Ductcvader. When I expanded from my Eldar to GK's originally, I thought.. "Finally.. Some dudes who can take some punishment and keep on going."
Thats when I realized that their high PPM made them even more elite than my Eldar, and considerably harder to play.
I am seeing Paladins as more of a novelty...they're super anti-troop units and you might as well take crowe's purifiers...
If you want the terminator blob...get mordrak...the terminators are in their face first turn and when you take some psycannons into side or rear armor...fun...sure to destroy dev squads.
The dreadknight at 205 points...allows you to triple up on these and breath easy (in terms of all your opponent's heavy weapon priorities) and then take some standard strike forces with psycannons/purifiers with halberds.
LRs are going to be less common in this army than ever before. The way of the water warrior has not passed...but it's mode of transport has most definitely changed...rhinos, stormravens, and especially teleport packs are going to be well worth their points...the packs especially with a water warrior approach
Samus_aran115 wrote:This thread is too long. It's getting impossible to find anything....
Anything new to speak of?
Define "New", the OP seems to be pretty spot on with editing/updating the original post to contain "verified" new info, with the execption of pictures, which is noted on page 19.
The only major developments have been potential lists, which to be honest, is the best use of a rumor thread (IMO, until the codex comes out, any "Psudo-Meta-Gaming" such as List Building and weighting Strengths and Weaknesses would be considered "rumors"). I only wish the DE thread was as "knowledge-rich" as this one!
Aye, I agree. Paladins are going to be a total novelty unit. With such a massive PPM cost, they're going to be the target of every melta, plasma and lascannon on the board, and you can only pass so many 2+ saves.
I'm still going with my full =][= army. It will obviously be a bit less douche-y than the Chimspam-from-hell list though
I've always loved Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, so I'll need to make at least a few of my henchmen squads into them.
So happy to (hopefully) see the return of Inquisitor Retinues. Useful and feels really fluff-accurate.
The major thing about paladins is that they just do what terminators already do well enough...survive small arms fire...admittedly, they are much better at surviving something like droves of termagants, but they'll die very much the same to AT weapons...good unit to put on the board to be a fire magnet that allows other units to walk around unhindered...kind of like a swarmlord...
Not if you give them warding staves. Expensive, yes, but statisically bound to survive just about anything. I could see them being of use in Apocalypse if there was someone you REALLY wanted kept alive, just give them all warding staves and laugh at just about any normal attack.
I was talking about warding staves...but what you forget is that when you put your 700-1000 point unit on the table...your opponent only really has one target for their AT and it's a pretty slow target...
What I am hoping this means...is that lascannons will be brought back to the meta...missiles being denied by FnP so often should really teach people.
Balance wrote:Even worse, they're superintelligent ape weaponsmiths that appear to have been hanging around with the Obliterator cults.
Well, they were here first.
Fair enough, although I had never heard them having presto-changeo weapons before now...
Well in the old fluff, they constructed "digital weapons"... as powerful as full sized meltagun, lasgun, bolter, etc... but small enough to fit on a single finger. If that holds true, its simply that they have one digital weapon of each weapon they can have but are limited to shooting one each turn. The multi/twin-linked weapons simple represent them having one of a type of weapon on each hand.
That's why I mentioned Apocalypse. It's only in those kinds of points value that could have anything else of note that it would be in the enemies' interest to target.
I'm still going to have to try a 1500 point game with paladins, just for fun
Cerebrium wrote:That's why I mentioned Apocalypse. It's only in those kinds of points value that could have anything else of note that it would be in the enemies' interest to target.
I'm still going to have to try a 1500 point game with paladins, just for fun
Oh for certain...I am going to run and all paladin all dreadknight list...just for the fun of it...
Balance wrote:Even worse, they're superintelligent ape weaponsmiths that appear to have been hanging around with the Obliterator cults.
Well, they were here first.
Fair enough, although I had never heard them having presto-changeo weapons before now...
Well in the old fluff, they constructed "digital weapons"... as powerful as full sized meltagun, lasgun, bolter, etc... but small enough to fit on a single finger. If that holds true, its simply that they have one digital weapon of each weapon they can have but are limited to shooting one each turn. The multi/twin-linked weapons simple represent them having one of a type of weapon on each hand.
Fair enough. It still seems like a weird Codex to force this particular background element into, but who knows?
We're all pretty certain the word "jokaero" was added in by the fanbase...haven't heard anyone actually believe its in the book...for now just consider it a human until we get confirmation...let's avoid the fluff wars on it.
Things like that don't tend to come out of nowhere. I'd just guess that the "Weaponsmith" henchmen type is a more generic entry with the Jokaero possibly being mentioned as a an example of one.
1125 points that start no more than 18" away. On DoW missions, they can do some very scary things.
Add 2x Nemesis Dreadknight with teleporters for 420
Now on T1 there's 2 2+/4++ nasty nasties along with 12 OMGDED stone killers on or within your deployment.
Vindicaire Assassin, and 2 3-Paladin squads with psycannons bring the list up to about 1960.
Is this a tiny army? Yes. Is it unbeatable? Of course not. Is 10 GK Super Terms with Draigo and 3 (or 4) 2++ saves plus two Megatrons 10 inches from your deployment zone on T1 terrifying?
Yeah, yeah it is. Footslogging lists don't have a chance. Even IG blobs lose about 20 guys on the charge. The only way around it is to be more mobile and whittle them down with shooting. Some lists can do this, but even DE will have trouble doing so while taking heavy psycannon fire from Megatrons, psycannon fire from Pallas, and Turbo fire from Vindie.
ductvader wrote:I was talking about warding staves...but what you forget is that when you put your 700-1000 point unit on the table...your opponent only really has one target for their AT and it's a pretty slow target...
What I am hoping this means...is that lascannons will be brought back to the meta...missiles being denied by FnP so often should really teach people.
Krak Missiles and Lascannons are equivalent weapons when shooting something that's Toughness 4 with a 2+ invulnerable save.
Teeth is one thing. 17 Razorbacks is something slowed altogether.
I think I'd just walk away from the table and look for a game with someone who *isnt* a douchebag to game with... and I'll be fielding GK myself!
I don't like Chimera lists for the game; but frankly; with the way a pure inquisition army was in the old codex...I'm just glad that things have improved for better or for worse for the game; old Inquisition armies were weak. (Barring GKs and SoBs)
Maybe its Karma that they haven't put a true Inquisitorial Stormtrooper Squad in as a Codex choice.
Balance wrote:Even worse, they're superintelligent ape weaponsmiths that appear to have been hanging around with the Obliterator cults.
Well, they were here first.
Fair enough, although I had never heard them having presto-changeo weapons before now...
Well in the old fluff, they constructed "digital weapons"... as powerful as full sized meltagun, lasgun, bolter, etc... but small enough to fit on a single finger. If that holds true, its simply that they have one digital weapon of each weapon they can have but are limited to shooting one each turn. The multi/twin-linked weapons simple represent them having one of a type of weapon on each hand.
Ore three weapons connected to one power source. You only have enough to juice to fire once each turn.
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Cerebrium wrote:Even if it is a human, I'm making a Jokaero model. Weapon-making super-intelligent orangutan. What's not to love.
Other than "weapon-making", "super-intelligent" and "orangutan"? Nothing.
Please let them not actually be monkeys. Let them change the fluff in a positive manner this time...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nothing has been said (to my knowledge) about anything that can assault from deep strike. All this deep striking...and everyone has to stand there an get their @$$ shot off for a turn?
Yeah, yeah - I hear you screaming about how "uber" they already are, and warding staves, etc. - but it still seems like an obvious omission. And yes, I do like Vanguard Veterans. But I play for fun.
VoidAngel wrote:Nothing has been said (to my knowledge) about anything that can assault from deep strike. All this deep striking...and everyone has to stand there an get their @$$ shot off for a turn?
Yeah, yeah - I hear you screaming about how "uber" they already are, and warding staves, etc. - but it still seems like an obvious omission. And yes, I do like Vanguard Veterans. But I play for fun.
Who's mentioned deepstriking anything GK related? Access to Scout USR and 30" no-miss "teleport" jump mean there's no reason to DS.
niallkissick wrote:I was in my local GW yesterday and my friend who works in there was able to tell me the Dreadknight sits a couple of inches higher than a Land Raider.
Which is quite clearly noticeably larger than a Dreadnought.
By being so large it thereby not only is cool just for its huge size, but it fills a useful purpose in the game and model range by adding a new dimension to the army to which it belongs. There clearly was no use for anything slightly larger than Terminators that is also slightly smaller than a Dreadnought. That's hardly a large gap to fill size-wise, its hardly a gap at all.
VoidAngel wrote:Nothing has been said (to my knowledge) about anything that can assault from deep strike. All this deep striking...and everyone has to stand there an get their @$$ shot off for a turn?
Yeah, yeah - I hear you screaming about how "uber" they already are, and warding staves, etc. - but it still seems like an obvious omission. And yes, I do like Vanguard Veterans. But I play for fun.
Who's mentioned deepstriking anything GK related? Access to Scout USR and 30" no-miss "teleport" jump mean there's no reason to DS.
VoidAngel wrote:Nothing has been said (to my knowledge) about anything that can assault from deep strike. All this deep striking...and everyone has to stand there an get their @$$ shot off for a turn?
Yeah, yeah - I hear you screaming about how "uber" they already are, and warding staves, etc. - but it still seems like an obvious omission. And yes, I do like Vanguard Veterans. But I play for fun.
Who's mentioned deepstriking anything GK related? Access to Scout USR and 30" no-miss "teleport" jump mean there's no reason to DS.
How about everyone that has talked about ghost terminators?
VoidAngel wrote:Nothing has been said (to my knowledge) about anything that can assault from deep strike. All this deep striking...and everyone has to stand there an get their @$$ shot off for a turn?
Yeah, yeah - I hear you screaming about how "uber" they already are, and warding staves, etc. - but it still seems like an obvious omission. And yes, I do like Vanguard Veterans. But I play for fun.
Who's mentioned deepstriking anything GK related? Access to Scout USR and 30" no-miss "teleport" jump mean there's no reason to DS.
If you can even use it to Scout.
Pretty solid rumor that Grandmasters grant one of the following to d3 units;
1) Makes them scoring
2) Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
3) Makes them have counter attack USR.
4) Makes them Scout
So, at the very least....the Paladin unit would have scout (Although this might need a FAQ...as I wonder if the attached IC counts as part of that 'unit' in terms of granting them a special ability...or will you need to spend one of your D3 on him too)
Apemen are in the book.. As I said hes called a Jokaero weaponsmith and grants the abilities detailed
GKGM is correct, he gives those abilities.. However he cannot give abilities to ICs, so not joining them to scouts
I think ghost knights will be a hugely popular unit.. They can get a demon hammer for *free*.. and the upgrade to S5 stormbolters is 10 pts for the WHOLE unit
So for 330 points you can get 10 teminators with S5 SB + S8 CC weapons that come down turn 1 and dont scatter... along with stealth
If you only allocate 1 wound to mordrak a phase that he fails you COULD get him for half pt cost.. Since he gets 1 ghost knight per wound suffered (if youre lucky) and he has 4 wounds. Oh he's also untargettable in CC since the ghost knights become retinue and that means he only has to be within 2" to attack. Only downside is if he dies then all ghost knights die too, but who cares since he'll alway be last to die
Kirasu wrote:Apemen are in the book.. As I said hes called a Jokaero weaponsmith and grants the abilities detailed
GKGM is correct, he gives those abilities.. However he cannot give abilities to ICs, so not joining them to scouts
I think ghost knights will be a hugely popular unit.. They can get a demon hammer for *free*.. and the upgrade to S5 stormbolters is 10 pts for the WHOLE unit
So for 330 points you can get 10 teminators with S5 SB + S8 CC weapons that come down turn 1 and dont scatter... along with stealth
If you only allocate 1 wound to mordrak a phase that he fails you COULD get him for half pt cost.. Since he gets 1 ghost knight per wound suffered (if youre lucky) and he has 4 wounds. Oh he's also untargettable in CC since the ghost knights become retinue and that means he only has to be within 2" to attack. Only downside is if he dies then all ghost knights die too, but who cares since he'll alway be last to die
Ahh, thanks. So, I'm still thinking 6 + GM in a LR...although 10 scouting Movie Marine is pretty funny Clams .
Daemon Hammer Nemesis = TH with special powers v. Daemons?
I dont actually know what the demon hammer does since I dont have the armory.. Mordrak has a Nemesis Force Hammer and the ghost knights can get a Nemesis Demon hammer.. Im sorta assuming it doubles strength like every other hammer in the universe
Perhaps it strikes in Init order vs demons like the current book
Kirasu wrote:I dont actually know what the demon hammer does since I dont have the armory.. Mordrak has a Nemesis Force Hammer and the ghost knights can get a Nemesis Demon hammer.. Im sorta assuming it doubles strength like every other hammer in the universe
Perhaps it strikes in Init order vs demons like the current book
Chaplain Pallantide wrote:@Kirasu: Are these Ghost knights, Ghost? Or are they just called that and are nothing more than Grey Knight Terminator ninjas? Just curious.
Thanks,
Chappy P!
what weapons?
2 wounds?
what USR's?
how many points?
Chaplain Pallantide wrote:@Kirasu: Are these Ghost knights, Ghost? Or are they just called that and are nothing more than Grey Knight Terminator ninjas? Just curious.
Thanks,
Chappy P!
what weapons?
2 wounds?
what USR's?
how many points?
'
I thought they were 1 wound terminators with stealth, apart from that i dont know
Chaplain Pallantide wrote:@Kirasu: Are these Ghost knights, Ghost? Or are they just called that and are nothing more than Grey Knight Terminator ninjas? Just curious.
Thanks,
Chappy P!
what weapons?
2 wounds?
what USR's?
how many points?
'
I thought they were 1 wound terminators with stealth, apart from that i dont know
ghost knights are terminators with stealth.. They are 8 pts cheaper than SM terminators, have hammerhand and can have either a power weapon, halberd or demon hammer for free. Basically they're CSM terminators with a 2pt USR who dont have to pay for power fists
Ward staves only replace their power weapon, so if they are labled 2h in the armory it wouldnt matter since they dont have 2 CC weapons anyway.. but it does not restrict access to ranged weapons
Theyre just crazy expensive, but you cant have 2 CC weapons.. Every option replaces the power weapon
Warding staves are best on the brotherhood champion who has a 98% chance to negate all wounds when using his defensive fighting stance
Kirasu wrote:Ward staves only replace their power weapon, so if they are labled 2h in the armory it wouldnt matter since they dont have 2 CC weapons anymore.. but it does not restrict access to ranged weapons
Theyre just crazy expensive
Warding staves are best on the brotherhood champion who has a 98% chance to negate all wounds when using his defensive fighting stance
Ahh, so it's not like WolfGuard with the text "May replace storm bolter and/or power fist with one of the following...". You can only replace the power weapon, damn.
Fluff wise are these Ghost Knights truly ghost as in the spooky undead type of spirits? Or are they normal living dudes who are just really stealthy? I hope that is more clear...
Ward staves - are they simply replacing the NFW and still allowing the stormbolter or do they remove that extra 1A from the SB?
Halbeards - do they remove the +1A from the stormbolters (count as 2H)?
Deamonhammers - do they still count the +1A from the stormbolter?
If you take a psycannon or incinerator - do those remove the +1A from the stormbolter?
(basically if you upgrade a terminator in any way, b eit with heavy weapon, ward staff or halbeard, will this affect the number of Cc attacks. Is it either shooty termie squads or assaulty or both?)
If you cast holocaust, before Cc will you still be able to use hammerhand?
How about the next "player turn" Cc?
Do normal troop GK terminators get the 4++ inc save?
Librarian and HQs:
Can take skull servitors, what does this count as and taking several, what is the difference?
Do they count as the current +1I or as a locator beacon maybe or as the SW infiltration negating device?
Models:
Are there different models for normal GK terminators, stealth terminators, paladins?
(even though it is one termie box, can you make distinctly different GKT, stealth GKT, paladins?
Same goes for strike knights and purgation knights.
I dont know if the BH champ has been posted.. but basically he costs the same as a basic SM captain..
UPDATE: I was wrong, he cannot take warding stave
But he comes with artificer armor, anointed blade, iron halo and a storm bolter. He only has 1 wound
He has titans herald, perfect warrior, hammerhand and heroic sacrifice abilities
anointed sword is nemesis force weapon that re-rolls ALL failed wounds
Titans herald is same litanies of hate
Perfect warrior gives him fighting stances he MUST use at start of CC
Swordstorm - auto hit vs all enemies in B2b
Bladeshield - reroll all FAILED saves period .. He may not attack this round
Rapier strike (Even tho he doesnt have a rapier).. His attack profile is d3 and all attacks are resolve at Init 10
INCOMING CHEESY ABILITY
|
|
|
Heroic sacrifice
psychic power used when he is slain.. He then makes a single melee attack vs ANY ENEMY that was in b2b with him
If he hits, the model is gone from the game with no saving through allowed period.. Its dead, get it out of here
Do the Grey Knights have resistance to Daemon shooting powers? I am looking forward to playing my Daemons vs. new GK. Abilities like Boon of Mutation, Breath of Chaos, and Daemonic Gaze will still work like they do against other MEQ right? I just wanted to make sure there isn't any more powers that give them an edge vs. Daemons because right now I'm not worried... elite MEQ armies are pretty easy to take down with Daemons (preferred enemy or not). Either way it will make for some epic battles.
VoidAngel wrote:Nothing has been said (to my knowledge) about anything that can assault from deep strike. All this deep striking...and everyone has to stand there an get their @$$ shot off for a turn?
Yeah, yeah - I hear you screaming about how "uber" they already are, and warding staves, etc. - but it still seems like an obvious omission. And yes, I do like Vanguard Veterans. But I play for fun.
Who's mentioned deepstriking anything GK related? Access to Scout USR and 30" no-miss "teleport" jump mean there's no reason to DS.
How about everyone that has talked about ghost terminators?
Ghost Termies certainly, but that's a no-miss teleport and then they just run to be in not-get-owned-by-blasts formation. GTs seem to be the only thing that you ever would bother porting and they don't suffer from near as many limitations as normal.
Therion wrote:Has to be a pretty bizarre scenario for him to die the same turn he is in base to base contact with an enemy transport vehicle.
He charges a vehicle with several other guys, surrounding and immobilizing it. The next turn, the enemy countercharges and kills him. Does this happen commonly? Not really. But it's certainly something that could come up.
Do we have a definitive list of gear warrior acolytes can use? Because they've picked up my interest. As far as I've heard they have masses of choices, which leads me to believe you could "create" new types of unit, or tailor it for others *cough* SoB *cough*.
VoidAngel wrote:Nothing has been said (to my knowledge) about anything that can assault from deep strike. All this deep striking...and everyone has to stand there an get their @$$ shot off for a turn?
Yeah, yeah - I hear you screaming about how "uber" they already are, and warding staves, etc. - but it still seems like an obvious omission. And yes, I do like Vanguard Veterans. But I play for fun.
Who's mentioned deepstriking anything GK related? Access to Scout USR and 30" no-miss "teleport" jump mean there's no reason to DS.
If you can even use it to Scout.
Pretty solid rumor that Grandmasters grant one of the following to d3 units;
1) Makes them scoring
2) Makes them re roll 1s to wound all game
3) Makes them have counter attack USR.
4) Makes them Scout
So, at the very least....the Paladin unit would have scout (Although this might need a FAQ...as I wonder if the attached IC counts as part of that 'unit' in terms of granting them a special ability...or will you need to spend one of your D3 on him too)
That's not what I meant. I'm talking about the 30" teleport. There may some restriction about using it to Scout, using it on Turn 1 or something else to keep the Scout + 30" move shenanigans down.
You should just scout your 12 in case they get first turn...then you can move 30" during your own turn...makes little difference...you can't assault that turn no matter how you do it...
Cerebrium wrote:Do we have a definitive list of gear warrior acolytes can use? Because they've picked up my interest. As far as I've heard they have masses of choices, which leads me to believe you could "create" new types of unit, or tailor it for others *cough* SoB *cough*.
Yes, they can take basically all special weapons.. Plasma, melta, flamers, bolters, plasma pistols.. They can have special CC weapons too but its totally worthless as Crusaders do the same thing for like 1/4th the price
That's not what I meant. I'm talking about the 30" teleport. There may some restriction about using it to Scout, using it on Turn 1 or something else to keep the Scout + 30" move shenanigans down.
Doesn't really matter (okay, it kind of does) if you can assault T1 with the scout jump or if you have to wait til T2 to assault.
3 Megatrons standing in your deployment zone, gatling psycannoning and incinerating your d00ds (or chimeras) is bad no matter how you slice it.
Mass vehicle mounted plasma and lascannons are the only thing with a hope of shutting down 12 T7 2+/4++ wounds, and even SW Razorspam doesn't have enough of it to reliably kill more than 1.
This is the quintessential rock army (or at least can be built that way): Here's my Thing, you can't handle my Thing, when my Thing eventually gets there, you are fethed.
Seriously, don't underestimate this codex' impact on the meta. If the GK codex can really scoot-n-shoot like everything points to Megatrons being able to, then Space Wolves are going to have to reevaluate the value of 18 Missilefangs. If Wolf players get sick of all their missiles dying T1-2, how many things become viable again just because they're not getting shot by 30 missile launchers anymore?
Cerebrium wrote:Do we have a definitive list of gear warrior acolytes can use? Because they've picked up my interest. As far as I've heard they have masses of choices, which leads me to believe you could "create" new types of unit, or tailor it for others *cough* SoB *cough*.
It seemed to me from the git-go that this is what they intended. I see a bunch of "multipurpose" configurations that will let you mimic other units, extant and not. Looks like Inquisitorial Lego, to me.
"Hm...human stat line, power armor, bolters - yay! Basic Sisters!"
Ordo Xenos player should be able to have a lot of fun. IF it works the way I think (hopeI it's going to.
Cerebrium wrote:Do we have a definitive list of gear warrior acolytes can use? Because they've picked up my interest. As far as I've heard they have masses of choices, which leads me to believe you could "create" new types of unit, or tailor it for others *cough* SoB *cough*.
It seemed to me from the git-go that this is what they intended. I see a bunch of "multipurpose" configurations that will let you mimic other units, extant and not. Looks like Inquisitorial Lego, to me.
"Hm...human stat line, power armor, bolters - yay! Basic Sisters!"
Ordo Xenos player should be able to have a lot of fun. IF it works the way I think (hopeI it's going to.
Yeah you can give them power armor and bolters.. which makes them 15 pts. So for 4 more pts you get -1BS and no faith abilities.. What a bargain
Cerebrium wrote:Do we have a definitive list of gear warrior acolytes can use? Because they've picked up my interest. As far as I've heard they have masses of choices, which leads me to believe you could "create" new types of unit, or tailor it for others *cough* SoB *cough*.
It seemed to me from the git-go that this is what they intended. I see a bunch of "multipurpose" configurations that will let you mimic other units, extant and not. Looks like Inquisitorial Lego, to me.
"Hm...human stat line, power armor, bolters - yay! Basic Sisters!"
Ordo Xenos player should be able to have a lot of fun. IF it works the way I think (hopeI it's going to.
Exactly! I'm more excited for them than the Dreadknight or any of the big fancy units.
Sisters, Inq Stormtroopers, Skitarii, Deathwatch...Hell, even a passable Tech-priest!
Do we have a definitive list of gear warrior acolytes can use? Because they've picked up my interest. As far as I've heard they have masses of choices, which leads me to believe you could "create" new types of unit, or tailor it for others *cough* SoB *cough*.
So the only way to make stormtroopers that I understood so far is to take warriors (5+ saves), give them hellguns and take a space monkey or two to hopefully give them 4+ saves?
<Insert someones comment about the way to beat them is tons of TH/SS terminators>
Captain obvious is correct since thats the answer to almost EVERYTHING in the ENTIRE game
Yeah you can give them power armor and bolters.. which makes them 15 pts. So for 4 more pts you get -1BS and no faith abilities.. What a bargain
Quiet you! Faith points are broken and need to diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiie!
No, I'm figuring that there will be an 'equivalent'. Basically, you are picking a stat line, and then equipment. This mix-and-match, no-size-limit mechanic means you can simulate just about anything. All the special rules and other extras should compensate you for your broken, filthy, evil, misbegotten feth points.
Kirasu wrote:
Yeah you can give them power armor and bolters.. which makes them 15 pts. So for 4 more pts you get -1BS and no faith abilities.. What a bargain
But really, it will come down to the options. I can field these 'sisters' in squads of 3-12 with a variety of Special weapons, arm them with PW, etc and throw them in Razorbacks or Chimeras.
Let's say I'm emulating sisters as Troops.
Points Cost Comparison
10 Sisters and Rhino with 2 MG in C:WH = Half a Full Circle of Points
5 Hench, 2 Meltaguns in a HFRB in C:GK = 20 Points less.
So less bullet catchers, BS:4 and faith, more MSU. (Technically, the C:WH example I gave isn't even faithful.) Heck, you can save more points by dropping 2 hench and just running a squad of 3 'Sisters'.
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Pyriel- wrote:
Do we have a definitive list of gear warrior acolytes can use? Because they've picked up my interest. As far as I've heard they have masses of choices, which leads me to believe you could "create" new types of unit, or tailor it for others *cough* SoB *cough*.
So the only way to make stormtroopers that I understood so far is to take warriors (5+ saves), give them hellguns and take a space monkey or two to hopefully give them 4+ saves?
Yeah, the ghost knights seem like a cool unit to me for sure.
I'm so happy for the henchmen too, I can finally make a heavy inquisition army with more than just STs and crappy acolytes that do nothing but give my inquisitor stat buffs. I only hope that they don't end up being used for evil (MSU mech spam)
ductvader wrote:Except you can't assault during a turn you jump 30"
I suppose that'll depend on the exact wording of the specific rule, and is probably bound to generate some RAW arguments. If the 30" move is allowed during the scout move, your first turn the DK would be allowed to move 12" and then assault; I believe the scout move isn't part of the first player's turn. Same as you can scout a Vendetta 24" and in your first turn just move up to 6" and still fire all 3 TLLCs, correct?
And you can give vehicles the scout move indirectly, if the vehicle is a dedicated transport, because a unit with Scouts is deployed in a dedicated transport, the unit confers the Scouts rule to the transport.
Witch Hunters may be taken as allies in Space Marines and all variants, Imperial Guard and all variants, and Daemonhunters. Grey Knights should fall under either Space Marines and variants or Daemonhunters. Unless GW rules otherwise it seems like you would be able to take the standard 0-1/0-1/0-2/0-1 HQ/elite/troops/fast allies from Witch Hunters.
Ward staves - are they simply replacing the NFW and still allowing the stormbolter or do they remove that extra 1A from the SB?
GK work differently to space marines. One hand is for a close combat weapon, the other for a ranged. This changes when power armoured troops take special weapons. In the case of terminators, they will always have a ranged and a close combat weapon. A ward stave is a power weapon that gives you a 2++, along side your storm bolter, and unless it bears the same rules as powerfists/thunderhammers, you will still get 1+A for having a storm bolter (if the rumours are true)
Pyriel- wrote:Halbeards - do they remove the +1A from the stormbolters (count as 2H)?
No. I do not know this for sure, but if storm bolters grant it, then halberds get it.
Pyriel- wrote:Deamonhammers - do they still count the +1A from the stormbolter?
If they are +1 strength, very likely, if they are thunderhammers that strike at initiative like the old Daemonhammers, no. Although you will still have your stormbolter.
Pyriel- wrote:If you take a psycannon or incinerator - do those remove the +1A from the stormbolter?
From PAGK, yes, from terminators, yes. Once again going by extreme likeliness and not actual knowledge (I am more discussing than confirming), PAGK will need both hands to hold their weapons, terminators will be able to hold them in one hand, so PAGK lose their NFW. But the rule has always been that storm bolters grant the extra attack, otherwise the rule would simply be "Give them an extra attack" Taking a special weapon or heavy weapon will likely remove the 1+A
Pyriel- wrote:Do normal troop GK terminators get the 4++ inc save?
No, they have been confirmed to have the usual 2+/5++, Paladins are only rumoured to have a 4++ anyway. We can only hope.
Pyriel- wrote:Librarian and HQs:
Can take skull servitors, what does this count as and taking several, what is the difference?
I believe they will act just like farmiliars. Maybe +1 ini, or an extra psychic power, or an extra ablative wound? Who knows.
Pyriel- wrote:Models:
Are there different models for normal GK terminators, stealth terminators, paladins?
(even though it is one termie box, can you make distinctly different GKT, stealth GKT, paladins?
Same goes for strike knights and purgation knights.
No body knows. Once again we can only hope.
You would expect there to be a difference between paladins, if only slight, but I doubt theres a difference between Ghost Knights. I dont even expect to see models for them second wave, I mean different types of terminators is probably a bit to much for GW to bother with.
The 3 plastic box sets are (If memory serves)
PAGK, GKDK, TAGK.
There may be modular differences akin to devastators versus tacs, but otherwise purifiers, purgation squads and PAGK will all look the same.
It would have been even better if you were one of the people who actually knew these things, instead of just making conjecture and speculation like everyone else (that being the reason to ask specific questions in the first place)
ph34r wrote:Yeah, the ghost knights seem like a cool unit to me for sure.
Quite, especially since Mordrack is a mere 25 points more expensive than a regular Grand-Master and he gets The Grand Strategy too. There's a lot of ways to use a turn-1 scatter-less DS arrival and the Ghost Knights themselves are excellent at 32 points each plus customizing.
I forsee myself using him and a Librarian quite often if these rumors pan out
ph34r wrote:It would have been even better if you were one of the people who actually knew these things, instead of just making conjecture and speculation like everyone else (that being the reason to ask specific questions in the first place)
Many of my answers are actual truth that I have heard from confirmations by other people, and many more are based on the already released pictures, such as the gk in the bottom right of one of the leaked pictures, dont so quickly condemn my answers to be speculation. I do warn when I am not 100% sure, as when can we be? But mark my words, it shall be so.
Can I request we start a new thread or edit the front page for all the most recent rumors/confirmed rumors? It's getting arduous to find specific rumors that seem legit in +/- 50 pages.
tldr wrote:Can I request we start a new thread or edit the front page for all the most recent rumors/confirmed rumors? It's getting arduous to find specific rumors that seem legit in +/- 50 pages.
What happens if you put a librarian in Mordrack and his termy squad? Does the unit still deep strike in turn 1 with no scatter? Cause I can see that being a boss combo. "Oh hi! *flame template that removes from play*"
