ColdSadHungry wrote:Having to file away bits is different to having to add things that should be there already. Especially since those things were there on the metals and probably are there on some of the other Finecast models of the exact same type.
Added to which, competently moulded models should have absolute minimal mould lines and flash anyway, since both of those are a sign of wear or poor alignment of the mould.
ColdSadHungry wrote:Having to file away bits is different to having to add things that should be there already. Especially since those things were there on the metals and probably are there on some of the other Finecast models of the exact same type.
Added to which, competently moulded models should have absolute minimal mould lines and flash anyway, since both of those are a sign of wear or poor alignment of the mould.
Why do they get mould slippage anyway? Don't these things have locator pins? Or is that too obvious a question?
Thanks for the advice, but although I think Jani might indeed have been trolling, getting information out there can help clear up some of the misconceptions, and I tend to err on the side of caution when assuming the intent of others.
carmachu wrote:
Fetterkey wrote: Once people realize that Finecast is, in fact, superior to the old metal models, I think this sort of move will just look embarrassing, and Wayland will have to quickly alter their policies or else drift out of touch.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHA.....
Oh man, you kill me. Finecast has a ways to go before that in fact, gets anywhere near proven.
It's already the case for most players-- simply working with Finecast models and contrasting that to one's experience with metal is usually enough to make a new convert! People in real life don't complain about Finecast to anywhere near the extent we've seen here. In fact, I have yet to hear anybody have anything but praise for Finecast in person-- it seems, at least to me, like this is the typical anti-GW Dakka hivemind taking its toll. Mikhaila (who's almost certainly talked to more people than I about this) also reports that the reaction he's seen in person has been generally positive, and "nowhere near the negative reaction on Internet forums." While it may be trendy or cool to hate GW on here, you have to realize that many of their moves can, in fact, be positive, and that Internet complaints aside, the reaction to Finecast is quite good.
I'm reminded of the initial Finecast review on here which said that overall Finecast was an improvement over metal (while also discussing some flaws with the material and process)-- people took that to mean that Finecast was unacceptable and started up the usual litany of complaints against GW. Sometimes you have to just take a step back and breathe.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Why do they get mould slippage anyway? Don't these things have locator pins? Or is that too obvious a question?
Slippage would generally be from the mould being made incorrectly in the first place. There's at least one Space Marine mould (Oz gets stock from both the UK and the US factories, so I'm not sure which it is, off the top of my head) that had a nearly 1mm misalignment, which is horrendous to try to clean up, and ridiculous on 28mm models.
That being said, GW's metals were usually fairly good for mould lines. The more common problem with the metals, from my experience, was poor fitting pieces... So Finecast is like the worst of both worlds... worse mouldlines and flash, and it won't make a difference to the fit.
By contrast, I picked up a couple of boxes of plastic Warmachine minis a few weeks back... No sprues, almost invisible mould lines, detail as good if not better than the metals. You could pretty much just clean off the injection points, glue them together and paint. That is what Finecast should have been.
You can say what you want, but I've seen mostly negative reviews as far as quality on most sites. There is praise for the material as it does seam like a step in the right direction, but the quality of the actual figures themselves is very low, or at least hit and miss.
Andrew1975 wrote:You can say what you want, but I've seen mostly negative reviews as far as quality on most sites. There is praise for the material as it does seam like a step in the right direction, but the quality of the actual figures themselves is very low, or at least hit and miss.
Again, there's your problem-- the Internet has a long tradition of hating on GW wherever possible. In person, I haven't heard any of these complaints. I'm rather confident that, over time, we'll see the opinions on here and other Web sources start becoming more positive as people start to actually use Finecast models in their own armies and see what others have been able to do with the material.
Fetterkey wrote:
It's already the case for most players-- simply working with Finecast models and contrasting that to one's experience with metal is usually enough to make a new convert! People in real life don't complain about Finecast to anywhere near the extent we've seen here. In fact, I have yet to hear anybody have anything but praise for Finecast in person-- it seems, at least to me, like this is the typical anti-GW Dakka hivemind taking its toll. Mikhaila (who's almost certainly talked to more people than I about this) also reports that the reaction he's seen in person has been generally positive, and "nowhere near the negative reaction on Internet forums." While it may be trendy or cool to hate GW on here, you have to realize that many of their moves can, in fact, be positive, and that Internet complaints aside, the reaction to Finecast is quite good.
Yes I'm quite aware there are more then a few, well folks that PT barnum would call a certain S word, that are willing to accept substandard miniatuers, with flaws and hand wave them away. You, Kan, among others. Mikhila sure, but thats contrast with Wayland games and othre retailers. Milage varies, but I know around here, its a big thumbs down and a lateral move back to warmachine.
I know its cool to drink the koolaid, and poo poo anyone that has ANY negative reaction to something GW does. But you know what will be the final arbitor? GW finacial report. Last one wasnt so hot, willing to be the trend downward of unit sales will continue.
For what it's worth, I've got quite a bit of Finecast stuff. Sure, I've had the odd stinker (seriously, the worst is a Liche Priest. Must return him tomorrow) but the majority of stuff I have hasn't had any problem.
carmachu wrote:I know its cool to drink the koolaid, and poo poo anyone that has ANY negative reaction to something GW does. But you know what will be the final arbitor? GW finacial report. Last one wasnt so hot, willing to be the trend downward of unit sales will continue.
Much the reverse-- I've endured a silly amount of insults over this, with people calling me a GW plant, apologist, or even troll because I'm trying to convey the impression that I and others have had from encountering Finecast models in person. If anything's "cool" or trendy, it's hating GW, especially in the last month or so. Well, I'm not GW's biggest fan, and I certainly don't work for them, but I think that, just as I criticize them for actions that I find troublesome or detrimental to the game and hobby, I should compliment them for actions that are beneficial-- and Finecast, judging by what I and others have seen in person, is certainly beneficial to the hobby!
Also, not sure if it's been brought up (again, haven't read the whole thread) but Wayland aren't 'stopping selling Finecast' as cancelling current orders, pending a re-stock.
I work in retail, we do not have the Finecast line and won't. Customers who ordered direct are less than satisfied by the quality of the minis. These people in real life have had quite negative reactions and veiws on the metal to finecast switch. Theyre main complaint is that the quality has generally gone down and the rising price tags.
So yeas people in the real world are complaining not just the interwebs.
I just glued them in, when I was doing tyranids. Same with lictors. Never had an issue, ever.
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Fetterkey wrote:
Much the reverse-- I've endured a silly amount of insults over this, with people calling me a GW plant, apologist, or even troll because I'm trying to convey the impression that I and others have had from encountering Finecast models in person. If anything's "cool" or trendy, it's hating GW, especially in the last month or so. Well, I'm not GW's biggest fan, and I certainly don't work for them, but I think that, just as I criticize them for actions that I find troublesome or detrimental to the game and hobby, I should compliment them for actions that are beneficial-- and Finecast, judging by what I and others have seen in person, is certainly beneficial to the hobby!
I've got 20 years of GW playing under my belt. I know that doesnt seem like anything, but I've seen GW at its best and worst. I've seen them do great things, and then turn around an shoot themselves in the foot. GW, unfortunately, has earned its detractors comments. Repeatedly.
Finecast, judging by the hobby, is NOT that beneficial. Given that other manufactures can produce models, with same or similar material, cheaper with no flaws. Thats just a fact.
Omegus wrote:Even if Finecast had a 100% track record for their models, I am hesitant to buy anything that may melt if I leave it in the car too long.
I'm sure someone here will tell you that you can fix up melted Finecast much more easily than pin a metal model.
I'm sure that anyone who isn't a frothing at the mouth loon would also tell you that it does not melt if you "leave it in the car too long". To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.
The goon who posted the whole "MY GANDALF MELTED" thing seemingly retracted his statement and said that the "melt" on the model was in fact just the result of a miscast model to begin with.
Is the miscast acceptable? No. But it's still not a model melting, like is constantly used as some kind of ridiculous rallying cry against Finecast.
Andrew1975 wrote:You can say what you want, but I've seen mostly negative reviews as far as quality on most sites. There is praise for the material as it does seam like a step in the right direction, but the quality of the actual figures themselves is very low, or at least hit and miss.
Again, there's your problem-- the Internet has a long tradition of hating on GW wherever possible. In person, I haven't heard any of these complaints. I'm rather confident that, over time, we'll see the opinions on here and other Web sources start becoming more positive as people start to actually use Finecast models in their own armies and see what others have been able to do with the material.
Show a positive picture of something other then craptastic disaster sculpts and lets start seeing the proof in the pudding.
No one WANTS them, based on them being... crap. If your experience is any better, by all means, Show what your talking about.
Your other lame points are pretty moot, unless we can see some finecrap that doesn't involve bubbles miscasts, warps, or outright missing parts. Yeah, sure, I get that you think that you have to be the so called voice of GW, but.... somehow.. your just not doing the job here.
Point of fact- GW did us the solid of priming up a cherry product and gave up pits. These finecost minis are substandard, and your really just parroting the party line, instead of really coming to the table here with some proof to the contrary.
Bottom line- THERE IS NO POSITIVE REAL LIFE PICTURES OF THESE new bang up material sculpts yet. If there were to be, we would have seen them posted here.
Show me a good sculpt, and try to change my mind.
I would actually like to see some of these crappy sculpts that stand up to the hype.
The iPad 2 totally lived up to the hype, and after going through three android devices, I curse the day I had my iPhone stolen. Waiting for the next release (assuming to coincide with iOS 5), so I can finally take a hammer to this droid x like I've wanted to for so very long.
carmachu wrote:I know its cool to drink the koolaid, and poo poo anyone that has ANY negative reaction to something GW does. But you know what will be the final arbitor? GW finacial report. Last one wasnt so hot, willing to be the trend downward of unit sales will continue.
Much the reverse-- I've endured a silly amount of insults over this, with people calling me a GW plant, apologist, or even troll because I'm trying to convey the impression that I and others have had from encountering Finecast models in person. If anything's "cool" or trendy, it's hating GW, especially in the last month or so. Well, I'm not GW's biggest fan, and I certainly don't work for them, but I think that, just as I criticize them for actions that I find troublesome or detrimental to the game and hobby, I should compliment them for actions that are beneficial-- and Finecast, judging by what I and others have seen in person, is certainly beneficial to the hobby!
Ok, being balanced about things, I will admit you have a point. I think, in light of recent event's people have a huge desire to see GW fail, and if Finecast is the vehicle for that failure, well then so be it. I do think people are now being overly critical about GW.....point in case, I recently attempted the jump to Privateer Press Warmachine and purchased a starter box for Cryx, the plastic figures inside were TERRIBLE, you guys want to complain about Finecast? you aint seen anything, the detailing on these things were practically non existant....this was genuine CRAP....
So, I posted my findings, I didn't make a big song and dance about it, but I wanted to see what others thought........not a peep! Now, could it be I was the only person in the world, or even the only person on Dakka to have bought a Cryx starter set and found the same level of "quality" in these sculpts....I doubt it, and yet, where was the same level of "hate" that you see for GW?
Fast forward to GW, and on the flip side, I can see why people are targeting GW for their recently "activity", but more to the point, GW have come forward and have made statements and price increases based on the quality of their products.....that being, that their products are the "best in the world" or words to that effect.....while it may be part of the modelling hobby to GS parts, and "fix" minor issues, when you have such statements rammed down your throat, and a price increase to boot, you feel less inclined to be charitable with your time and modelling skills.
I have personally bought resin and metal miniatures from companies that make no claims to be best in the market with their miniatures, and yet, their products far outstrip those who do claim to be the best. I've bought resins from Studio McVey, which in every case, needed nothing doing to them! I've likewise bought minis from Corvus Belli that had very little flash, and certainly didn't need GS to fill the gaps......both of these companies lack the financial backing and resources of GW, and yet produce a better product.....
This is the reason why your arguments are not being well recieved. If GW's attitude wasn't as it is, no doubt much of what they do (in quality terms) would be overlooked (see my comments on PP above) such as it is, GW is simply reaping what it has sown.
Then why aren't you flipping out at Apple, Nike, or any other bloody company out there that doesn't live up to their hype?
Well, there's the point Kan, GW is becoming/has become, just another BS company fleecing their customers with sub-standard crap.
Sub-standard is subjective. Finecast is, at the moment, really the only part of what they're selling that's an active 'flop'.
With that aside, I've known for awhile that they're "just another company fleecing their customers". Gone are the days of Citadel being run out of a van, Games Workshop being a small chain of shops importing US products, etc.
Then why aren't you flipping out at Apple, Nike, or any other bloody company out there that doesn't live up to their hype?
Well, there's the point Kan, GW is becoming/has become, just another BS company fleecing their customers with sub-standard crap.
Sub-standard is subjective. Finecast is, at the moment, really the only part of what they're selling that's an active 'flop'.
With that aside, I've known for awhile that they're "just another company fleecing their customers". Gone are the days of Citadel being run out of a van, Games Workshop being a small chain of shops importing US products, etc.
They've been a "big company" for awhile now.
That's very true, harkening back to days of yore can be a bit depressing at times.
Now, with the finecast line, I think that perhaps GW could do a bit in the way of PR damage control by simply admitting they screwed the pooch where QC was involved and doing what's needed to rectify the problems.
Then why aren't you flipping out at Apple, Nike, or any other bloody company out there that doesn't live up to their hype?
Maybe he doesn't buy those items, or maybe it's the gulf between the GW hype and the delivery of the final product that annoys. These are dreadful problems that come on the back of boasts of the worlds finest miniatures and a significant price rise. It's beyond frustrating for those repeatedly having to replace defective products. At least when Apple produced the iPhone 4 with problems they reacted to it and tried to do something, unlike GW that have so far tried to conceal the numbers of defective items given what rich1231 said at the top of page 9.
Andrew1975 wrote:You can say what you want, but I've seen mostly negative reviews as far as quality on most sites. There is praise for the material as it does seam like a step in the right direction, but the quality of the actual figures themselves is very low, or at least hit and miss.
Again, there's your problem-- the Internet has a long tradition of hating on GW wherever possible. In person, I haven't heard any of these complaints. I'm rather confident that, over time, we'll see the opinions on here and other Web sources start becoming more positive as people start to actually use Finecast models in their own armies and see what others have been able to do with the material.
Fetterkey, you are being ridiculous or blind. Someone already posted about 10 different independent web reviews for finecast miniatures. The all say the same thing, it's crap. Show me an independent review that has a glowing review of this garbage.
Put a wee message on their site, facebook and white dwarf.
"Unfortunately, some sneaky grotz managed to get into our first Finecast run, but don't worry, we've resanctified the relevant machine spirits and we don't plan on seeing any future issues. Go to your local Games Workshop to get your models replaced for free, or fill out the online form to receive a freepost package to mail it back to us."
Then why aren't you flipping out at Apple, Nike, or any other bloody company out there that doesn't live up to their hype?
??? huh?
I wear Chucks, bro. !@#$ those guys.
Uh... still waiting on those pictures, Kan. As for "Flipping out" relax there chief. I'm willing to change my opinion... if there was a reason to.
Finecost is crap. Prove me wrong.
Thats it in a nutshell.
Show a Finecrap figure that someone owns that doesn't look meh, and stands up to the well rehersed talking points. Without hype, without pretty fawning over a turd.
No gimmicks, excuses, or doubletalk.
Aside from "The big bad Internetz being hard on GW, because they can do no wrong, and we all don't know what we are talking about.... I must be making it up.
Pretty straightforward, me thinks- Pictures or it doesn't exist.
Kanluwen wrote:To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.
So you consider shopping in summer to be 'ridiculously specific circumstances'...?
The goon who posted the whole "MY GANDALF MELTED" thing seemingly retracted his statement and said that the "melt" on the model was in fact just the result of a miscast model to begin with.
Yeah, 'My model was just faulty' is so much more reassuring than 'My model was... er... faulty... Wait, what?
Kanluwen wrote:Then why aren't you flipping out at Apple, Nike, or any other bloody company out there that doesn't live up to their hype?
Apple's current advertising slogan here in Oz is (literally) 'If you don't have an iPhone, you don't have an iPhone...'
I think they're living up to their hype just fine. As it turns out, I indeed don't have an iPhone.
Kanluwen wrote:To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.
So you consider shopping in summer to be 'ridiculously specific circumstances'...?
Way to pick one specific point out.
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
The goon who posted the whole "MY GANDALF MELTED" thing seemingly retracted his statement and said that the "melt" on the model was in fact just the result of a miscast model to begin with.
Yeah, 'My model was just faulty' is so much more reassuring than 'My model was... er... faulty... Wait, what?
Did you read the last line of that post you're quoting?
Because it said that yes, the miscasts are unacceptable. But it's still not a model melting in conventional circumstances.
I could go out and say that my soldering iron causes forest fires.
Does that mean that my soldering iron causes forest fires?
Yes, if I leave it on for a few hours in a forest with dry brush and no rainfall.
Circumstances have to be "ridiculously stupid" for my statement to be true.
Kanluwen wrote:Then why aren't you flipping out at Apple, Nike, or any other bloody company out there that doesn't live up to their hype?
Apple's current advertising slogan here in Oz is (literally) 'If you don't have an iPhone, you don't have an iPhone...'
I think they're living up to their hype just fine. As it turns out, I indeed don't have an iPhone.
Yeah. Apple's about as brilliant as GW in many cases.
Show a Finecrap figure that someone owns that doesn't look meh, and stands up to the well rehersed talking points. Without hype, without pretty fawning over a turd.
No gimmicks, excuses, or doubletalk.
But.....there's plenty of decent pictures of Finecast miniatures that are what they are supposed to be.......I think everyone can agree that (ignoring price) when Finecast is done correctly it really works. I love metal figures, and if it wasn't for the price and the random QC I would have no problem adding Finecast to my collection.
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?
I love metal figures, and if it wasn't for the price and the random QC I would have no problem adding Finecast to my collection.
It just seams strange to me that almost every independent site that I have seen with a review has a beat up model. Is it a conspiracy?
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?
Of course we don't know for a fact. People use common sense when storing stuff, wouldn't you agree?
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?
That we dont know for sure, but sure what we do know is, thats plenty enough heat to bend the resins, enough to break off the paints along the process.
And to repeat myself:
Im not saying Finecast is a bad idea, im not saying if resin done right shouldn't replace metal.
What me and im sure many have been saying is, dont introduce Finecast till its actually ready. Work out the kinks first, GET IT RIGHT before you shout out to the world how superior it is when its not. There is a good concept, and then there is the reality. I think the apologist are forcing themselves to look at this whole finecast issue via tunnel vision.
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Kanluwen wrote:
Andrew1975 wrote:
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?
Of course we don't know for a fact. People use common sense when storing stuff, wouldn't you agree?
Leaving your warhammer stuff in car when you arnt playing when you are in the shopping mall?
Sure seems normal to me. What ? are you going to suggest the owners to drag it around?
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?
Of course we don't know for a fact. People use common sense when storing stuff, wouldn't you agree?
Common sense. I have display case that gets direct sunlight, what am I supposed to do black out my gaming room? I've never had problems with minis melting in the past so tell me what isnot common sense about that? Common sense would be not releasing crap until you have figured out if it is actually usable.
Does anyone have a picture of a nondefective fine-grasp model?
Yeah just go to the finecast thread on this site, there are a few. It's not all bad, it's just that it's not all good like GW promised and priced as such.
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
Do we know that for a fact. Has anybody really done any testing? Can you guarantee that if I leave these on my desk by the window in the summer these are not going to melt. If direct summer sun hits my display case these are not going to melt?
Of course we don't know for a fact. People use common sense when storing stuff, wouldn't you agree?
Common sense. I have display case that gets direct sunlight, what am I supposed to do black out my gaming room? I've never had problems with minis melting in the past so tell me what isn't common sense about that?
If it's a display case with painted models that are varnished, you're going to be fine.
Bare material is far more susceptible to these kinds of shenanigans.
Common sense would be not releasing crap until you have figured out if it is actually usable.
Common sense would also be to sort out the wheat from the chaff in terms of the criticisms leveled at the material, which is used by two other companies.
So where's the reports of Mantic or Privateer Press models "melting" in the sunlight?
Does anyone have a picture of a nondefective fine-grasp model?
Yeah just go to the finecast thread on this site, there are a few. It's not all bad, it's just that it's not all good like GW promised and priced as such.
Which isn't the same as saying "THE LINE IS A MASSIVE FLOP!" or "OH MY GOD THEY LIED TO US!".
Is it acceptable? No. Not by a long shot. But it's not like GW is the only company to deliver the moon and instead give you a picture of the moon.
Andrew1975 wrote:Common sense. I have display case that gets direct sunlight, what am I supposed to do black out my gaming room? I've never had problems with minis melting in the past so tell me what isnot common sense about that? Common sense would be not releasing crap until you have figured out if it is actually usable.
Andrew, has your metal minis ever melted or warped even in direct sunlight or extreme summer heat? ( bet nope )
has your plastic ever get warped along with your metals? (bet nope too )
Have your GW resins? ( bet yes )
I agree with you, the answer is extremely clear. But according to kanluwen he dont think leaving the resin out in the open is considered common sense.
But thats the whole issue isnt it that he seems to miss ( or ignore on purpose ) , is GW should take in consideration in a material's durability as well ( especially ones that hasnt showed much improvement )
See like some models are just trash how they made it out to shipping is really sad. Other models aren't too bad still would be pissed if i got a model and there was some thing wrong with it.
Kanluwen wrote: Bare material is far more susceptible to these kinds of shenanigans.
You really cant get the point can you. No paint or varnish is going to be safe when resin is warped. When it warps during the heat the paint will crack off. Its not some fancy chemical reaction that makes paint magically fall off, its acrylic paints cant bend along without cracking.
Kanluwen wrote: Common sense would also be to sort out the wheat from the chaff in terms of the criticisms leveled at the material, which is used by two other companies. So where's the reports of Mantic or Privateer Press models "melting" in the sunlight?
Hey good question, ya where IS the reports of mantics warping and melting? Or there hasnt been any? Why? If a small company like mantic can do their resins right, why not GW? Thanks for bringing that up!
Kanluwen wrote:To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.
So you consider shopping in summer to be 'ridiculously specific circumstances'...?
Way to pick one specific point out.
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
He is quoting you directly. Leaving the item in a car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees or higher is not a "ridiculously specific circumstance". I live in fething Texas, we've had days with 105 degrees last week.
Kanluwen wrote:To get it to melt requires a set of ridiculously specific circumstances(left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light) that anyone would avoid anyways.
So you consider shopping in summer to be 'ridiculously specific circumstances'...?
Way to pick one specific point out.
It's not a case of "the model is being melted/warped by the heat". It's a case of the model is being melted/warped by prolonged, direct exposure with amplified light. It doesn't happen any other way.
He is quoting you directly. Leaving the item in a car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees or higher is not a "ridiculously specific circumstance". I live in fething Texas, we've had days with 105 degrees last week.
Except as I stated, the temperature alone isn't going to cause a melt.
I've got resin kits stored in my attic, which gets up to 102 degrees on 89 degree days here in NC(It's poorly ventilated, and heat rises). I can go pull any one of them out and not one will have an issue.
Simply being in heated air will not cause a problem.
Kanluwen wrote:Simply being in heated air will not cause a problem.
You preach about common sense, yet you do not apply ANY common sense to your posts.
The complaints are about transporting your army during hot days which is left in the car. ( which is common and long months even here in Canada )
You speak of resin kits been ok in you attic.
Well you see, too bad most of the CONTENTS we carry are not un built resin kits. But are in fact ( very common )
to be Assembled and PAINTED resin. which is the one most susceptible to the heat. Why? because thats when we carry our PAINTED armies
in our PROTECTIVE CASE , which is when the pressure of the foam +the HEAT causes the warps the material.
You are been obtuse on purpose and dodging the situation.
Yes, we all know resin can be manufactured in such a way that heat is not an issue. That's why there are no reports of Mantic or Privateer or even Forge World resin warping under heat. We do, however, have reports of such for Finecast resin, which is reported to be much softer.
But hey, why not take some of your Finecast models, and stick them up in the attic and see what happens. Then this argument can be put to rest. Of course, I understand if you don't want to risk your $30 model warping into goo.
Look I've never has a problem with Forgeworld stuff melting after I was done with it, but that is a differet harder resin. I actually like that I can heat it up and bend it, but it has never wilted on its own.As for Mantic, I don't know which resin they are using, but I haven't heard of problems from them. I would doubt it's the same stuff as finecast because Mantic actually dropped the price with their resin product by half, GW raised it so I'm going to guess its the older resin tech, not this new plastic resin. I could be wrong.
Omegus wrote:Yes, we all know resin can be manufactured in such a way that heat is not an issue. That's why there are no reports of Mantic or Privateer or even Forge World resin warping under heat. We do, however, have reports of such for Finecast resin, which is reported to be much softer.
But hey, why not take some of your Finecast models, and stick them up in the attic and see what happens. Then this argument can be put to rest. Of course, I understand if you don't want to risk your $30 model warping into goo.
If I actually had any Finecast, sure I would.
But even if I did have any Finecast and performed that, there'd still be accusations of "Well you didn't do it right, you put it in a place where the test was guaranteed to prove the answer YOU wanted it to prove!".
Well, you are aware that all delivery to stores is done in UPS delivery cars, dark painted cars that stand in the open in summer. It's getting really hot in there. So the whole delivery chain is compromised in summer.
And English summer was enough to melt Finecast in one GW shop rack behind a Southern window.
Omegus wrote:The iPad 2 totally lived up to the hype, and after going through three android devices, I curse the day I had my iPhone stolen. Waiting for the next release (assuming to coincide with iOS 5), so I can finally take a hammer to this droid x like I've wanted to for so very long.
No doubt about that. I'm not normally an Apple user (Desktop PC still)----but I definitely think the IPad 2 is all they've said it would be.
On topic, I would love to see the way they are molding their FineCast models. Between silicone mold being left in the final product---to mold release bubbles being present on the product---to obvious air bubbles being trapped---well that's alarming because they are all different issues caused by different steps in the process. The melting is rather worrisome too---as that can either be caused by A) Improper mixing of the resin agents or B) The resin agent itself simply not having high tolerances.
Kroothawk wrote:Well, you are aware that all delivery to stores is done in UPS delivery cars, dark painted cars that stand in the open in summer.
Incorrect assumptions, but that never stopped you before.
It's getting really hot in there. So the whole delivery chain is compromised in summer.
Then explain Mikhaila's stock of pretty much perfect models?
And English summer was enough to melt Finecast in one GW shop rack behind a Southern window.
Prove it. Pictures.
Because that sounds more like the same garbage that came out of the guy who claimed his Gandalf "melted" on his window sill.
And yes. I did mean to use "assumptions". UPS trucks don't "stand in the open" in summer. They roll up the door on the back when making deliveries, or more often than not just park and walk into the back from the front.
Kanluwen wrote:If I actually had any Finecast, sure I would.
But even if I did have any Finecast and performed that, there'd still be accusations of "Well you didn't do it right, you put it in a place where the test was guaranteed to prove the answer YOU wanted it to prove!".
So basically, you're talking out of your ass and being obtuse on purpose. Okay, good to know, we can all ignore you in peace now (something we should have probably done 4 pages ago).
I have seen multiple instances of anecdotal reports of GW resin warping. Until there is absolute confirmation that is not the case, that's enough to put me off finecast even if they weren't miscast 50% of the time.
Kanluwen wrote:But even if I did have any Finecast and performed that, there'd still be accusations of "Well you didn't do it right, you put it in a place where the test was guaranteed to prove the answer YOU wanted it to prove!".
Ya you are right, i for one i will accuse of that , but not without good reasons. A prime example?
You compare leaving a resin kit in your attic vs leaving a finecast sandwiched / squished in GW foam case in the heat.
Lets see direct comparison:
1) You left the pressure out which is a huge factor.
2) You left the fact that paints will not cope with the warping , wihch again is a huge factor as thats when its COMMON for people to leave them in the PROTECTIVE case to begin with.
which is way different than an untouched resin kit.
Kanluwen wrote:If I actually had any Finecast, sure I would.
But even if I did have any Finecast and performed that, there'd still be accusations of "Well you didn't do it right, you put it in a place where the test was guaranteed to prove the answer YOU wanted it to prove!".
So basically, you're talking out of your ass and being obtuse on purpose. Okay, good to know, we can all ignore you in peace now (something we should have probably done 4 pages ago).
So basically, you're nothing but someone looking for a reason to complain and try to pick a fight with someone trying to inject some much needed logic into a situation that is constantly being driven by emotion.
I'm shocked. Really, I am.
You asked me to put a piece of Finecast in my attic. I said I would if I had any.
I've got no pieces that I actually want or need for my armies(Dark Angels Successor, Imperial Guard, and Fantasy Empire) that are currently available in Finecast or that I do not already own in metal.
I could, if you want, go put a metal Techmarine in the attic, but that wouldn't prove anything now would it?
I have seen multiple instances of anecdotal reports of GW resin warping. Until there is absolute confirmation that is not the case, that's enough to put me off finecast even if they weren't miscast 50% of the time.
All resin can warp.
There's been only ONE report of a finecast model "melting", and the report was a guy overexaggerating.
Do we have any solid, documented evidence that Finecast does in fact "melt" or distort at 89 degrees F, or did that number come from the Department of Made Up Statistics?
To really test it, I think we'd need to get a pair of plastic minis, and a pair of Finecast minis, paint one of each, leave the other ones unpainted, and put them in an army case, in a trunk, on a hot day, ideally with a remote thermometer in there. My understanding is that painted plastic minis left in a trunk all day in someplace like Arizona are going to be ruined, so that Finecast also would be ruined in such a condition is not a negative. The real question is, are they more susceptible to this - do they sag\droop\soften\melt at a significantly lower temperature then the plastics? I don't think anyone knows this yet.
The temperature issue is questionable at this point in time. Since there are other, less debatable problems with Finecast perhaps we should stick with the less-ambiguous topic at hand until there is real evidence of the above, at which point a new post should be made discussing it.
Ouze wrote:Do we have any solid, documented evidence that Finecast does in fact "melt" or distort at 89 degrees F, or did that number come from the Department of Made Up Statistics?
That was more me guessing. The guy who showed off his "melted" Gandalf said that it was like 40-50 degrees Celsius, and I figured 89 degrees+ F wouldn't be too unreasonable.
Like you said in the next part...
To really test it, I think we'd need to get a pair of plastic minis, and a pair of Finecast minis, paint one of each, leave the other ones unpainted, and put them in an army case, in a trunk, on a hot day, ideally with a remote thermometer in there. My understanding is that painted plastic minis left in a trunk all day in someplace like Arizona are going to be ruined, so that Finecast also would be ruined in such a condition is not a negative. The real question is, are they more susceptible to this - do they sag\droop\soften\melt at a significantly lower temperature then the plastics? I don't think anyone knows this yet.
The temperature issue is questionable at this point in time. Since there are other, less debatable problems with Finecast perhaps we should stick with the less-ambiguous topic at hand until there is real evidence of the above, at which point a new post should be made discussing it.
Ouze wrote:perhaps we should stick with the less-ambiguous topic at hand until there is real evidence of the above, at which point a new post should be made discussing it.
You are right, this topic seems ambiguous at first glance , but only because finecast has so many present problems , agreed?
The only reason its talking about warping atm is because kanluwen deflected the discussion away from the miscasts. Intended or not, hmm! good question.
Kanluwen wrote:
If someone wants to run that test, be my guest.
You do it. For someone with so much faith ( enough to go on for so many pages )
You should have no fear of testing it. And since you find GW to be cheap , just go out and buy a few.
Others that have all the doubt, why should we be doing the test?
Kanluwen wrote:So basically, you're nothing but someone looking for a reason to complain and try to pick a fight with someone trying to inject some much needed logic into a situation that is constantly being driven by emotion.
I'm shocked. Really, I am.
You'll note I haven't been complaining in this thread. I have stated that this rate of failure, even if it is exaggerated twice over, is unacceptable for a product as hyped and expensive as GW miniatures, especially when no such issues were present in plastic or metal models. I then stated that even if that wasn't the case, I am still skeptical about Finecast until I know for sure it won't melt if I leave it in the trunk for a couple of hours. You retorted that this would only happen in "ridiculously specific circumstances" such as leaving it in the car at temperatures of 89 degrees or higher. But hey, even if Finecast isn't warping in the sun, you're displaying an admirable skill at warping reality and what people are actually saying. Kudos.
Kanluwen wrote:So basically, you're nothing but someone looking for a reason to complain and try to pick a fight with someone trying to inject some much needed logic into a situation that is constantly being driven by emotion.
I'm shocked. Really, I am.
You'll note I haven't been complaining in this thread. I have stated that this rate of failure, even if it is exaggerated twice over, is unacceptable for a product as hyped and expensive as GW miniatures, especially when no such issues were present in plastic or metal models.
And again, like I said: there's plenty of products that don't live up to the hype. GW is not alone in this.
If the rate of failure is in fact true and across the board(which it seemingly is not, with somehow Wayland Games being the only one I can honestly think of that is reporting a 55% failure rate in their entire stock), then yes. It's unacceptable--period.
I then stated that even if that wasn't the case, I am still skeptical about Finecast until I know for sure it won't melt if I leave it in the trunk for a couple of hours. You retorted that this would only happen in "ridiculously specific circumstances" such as leaving it in the car at temperatures of 89 degrees or higher.
If you're going to quote me, quote me properly or don't quote me at all.
It would require, feasibly to replicate the circumstances of the "melting" model(which was then renounced by the original owner as not melted, but miscast) a car of 89 degrees+, the model to be still inside of its clamshell packaging, and in direct sunlight for the course of several hours.
But hey, even if Finecast isn't warping in the sun, you're displaying an admirable skill at warping reality and what people are actually saying. Kudos.
Warping and melting are not interchangeable terms. Just like a wolf in sheep's skin clothing is not a sheep.
"Warping" simply is the parts sagging or bending.
"Melting" is exactly what you think it is--a distortion of the model's details causing the parts to run together.
Kanluwen wrote:And again, like I said: there's plenty of products that don't live up to the hype. GW is not alone in this.
So basically, what you're saying is: "It's not fair to call GW out for selling you garbage while calling it gold, because other companies do the same thing."
But hey, even if Finecast isn't warping in the sun, you're displaying an admirable skill at warping reality and what people are actually saying. Kudos.
Warping and melting are not interchangeable terms. Just like a wolf in sheep's skin clothing is not a sheep.
"Warping" simply is the parts sagging or bending.
"Melting" is exactly what you think it is--a distortion of the model's details causing the parts to run together.
Hurray for semantics. They may as well be the same thing, because warping is enough for me not to purchase the product. Warping is enough to ruin the detail of the model, and is especially bad if the model is painted as the paint will crack.
Got to give kanluwen credit for selective reading and ignoring the main points.
Its like someone plugging their ears and shouting nonono you are wrong im right.
Which doesnt make them right, but sure sounds right in their own head.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Now you are playing semantics Kanners
Put it another way
"I left Shadowfax on the window sill and now he is Shadow f*xd!"
No, I'm really not.
The person who wrote that then retracted their statement, saying that there had been the flaw in question to begin with.
As in the case was really simply "I left Shadow f*xd on the window sill, and now he is still Shadow f*xd!".
Putting it simply: leaving a turd in the sun still leaves you with a turd afterwards.
And as a sidenote:
It's not "playing with semantics" to say that warping does not equal melting. The two are not the same, by any stretch of the imagination.
To use an example:
You don't say that polystyrene cement "warps" the plastic together. It "melts" the plastic together.
So I'm guessing Fetterkey tagged out and Kan took his place? All we have to do is wait for Redbeard and Mystery to arrive and we'll have ourselves a little hand-waving quartet!
Kanluwen wrote:Way to pick one specific point out.
I wasn't picking out one specific point. This:
"left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light"
...is the potential result of shopping on a summer's day here in Oz. For that matter, for large chunks of the country, it's the potential result of shopping on a spring or autumn day, and possibly the occasional winter's day as well.
This isn't some sort of bizarre, never-going-to-actually-happen set of conditions.
Again, there's your problem-- the Internet has a long tradition of hating on GW wherever possible blah blah blah.
I don't recall seeing endless threads about the quality of the plastics, in fact most of the new releases have had glowing reviews aside from prices and I've never had any problems with miscast plastics aside from one set which was missing the same piece from each sprue (and which GW replaced).
There have been some grumblings about the poor fit of some of the metal kits, the thunderfire canon I recall being widely criticized because of how it went together but nothing like the problems with this new "finecast" stuff.
Why is it that so many stories and pictures are popping up over this product? A conspiracy to hurt GW, the company that the complainers are buying all these models from? Sure that makes sense, let's buy models from a company we hate and then complain about them to make them really suffer, utter bollocks. I note on those pictures with obvious faults that there were plenty of secondary holes and indents not highlighted, I suspect many of those models that are being accepted would be considered substandard by myself and others, people need to complain more.
Heck, I was on a trade site lastnight looking at the feedback for this guy that sells firewood and he only has 5% negative feedback, yet reading the comments by those that gave him positive feedback shows that they weren't happy with the sodden unburnable wood that he was selling yet stupidly gave him the thumbs up simply for delivering it on time. I'm sure the same is happening with finecast, that many people are too ignorant or nice to send faulty casts back.
Delephont wrote:
Ok, being balanced about things, I will admit you have a point. I think, in light of recent event's people have a huge desire to see GW fail, and if Finecast is the vehicle for that failure, well then so be it. I do think people are now being overly critical about GW.....point in case, I recently attempted the jump to Privateer Press Warmachine and purchased a starter box for Cryx, the plastic figures inside were TERRIBLE, you guys want to complain about Finecast? you aint seen anything, the detailing on these things were practically non existant....this was genuine CRAP....
I personally have avoided the plastic from PP as much as possible. I truely prefer metal. However, I got second hand a cyclone, already assembled, bare plastic/resin......and it looks pretty good. Still not enough to presuade me to jump fully to their plastic, but its not as bad as I thought. Details were the same as the ironclads I have. Perhaps a bad box from you?
So, I posted my findings, I didn't make a big song and dance about it, but I wanted to see what others thought........not a peep! Now, could it be I was the only person in the world, or even the only person on Dakka to have bought a Cryx starter set and found the same level of "quality" in these sculpts....I doubt it, and yet, where was the same level of "hate" that you see for GW?
Fast forward to GW, and on the flip side, I can see why people are targeting GW for their recently "activity", but more to the point, GW have come forward and have made statements and price increases based on the quality of their products.....that being, that their products are the "best in the world" or words to that effect.....while it may be part of the modelling hobby to GS parts, and "fix" minor issues, when you have such statements rammed down your throat, and a price increase to boot, you feel less inclined to be charitable with your time and modelling skills.
I have personally bought resin and metal miniatures from companies that make no claims to be best in the market with their miniatures, and yet, their products far outstrip those who do claim to be the best. I've bought resins from Studio McVey, which in every case, needed nothing doing to them! I've likewise bought minis from Corvus Belli that had very little flash, and certainly didn't need GS to fill the gaps......both of these companies lack the financial backing and resources of GW, and yet produce a better product.....
This is the reason why your arguments are not being well recieved. If GW's attitude wasn't as it is, no doubt much of what they do (in quality terms) would be overlooked (see my comments on PP above) such as it is, GW is simply reaping what it has sown.
Its not just that. There's a level of real difference in companies, when you deal with them. PP will come out and explain items, and a variety of commentary. While GW.....is unapproachabl;e, shut down their forum, gone to defcon 1 on secrecy and a variety of other items. I'm sure coveis bell is just approachable, or near so. Same with McVey studios. Its why folks will cut some companies slack, where GW they will not.
There is no ambiguity, the first report that come about about resin melting in a car is already recorded on past posts, after that the gandalf fella that retracted after the ton of debris he got for posting that review and in that same debate someone reported that a GW store had some Fcasts on display facing store window and melted... I can ignore 1 or 2 but 3 reports on the same subject? with what purpose and what the hell of a coincidence people are reporting the exact same problem if they are only products of their imagination...
But forget my country average summer, or UPS ( because, you know, every mail delivery in the world is ups right? and no mail man leaves the box at your door in the sun RIGHT?)... The point here is that Wayland crunched some numbers and for sure the level of harassment and the discontent of clientelle does not justify to take the blame of something that its not their fault... I can only imagine the nigthmare of 10% returns now imagine something around 50% and the dent it will do to the profit margins... Fine cast is NOT something you can buy online and that alone speaks for the nature of this mediocre product and its ratio of miscasts.
I do hope GW opens their eyes because this is not something they can hide under the carpet this is the kind of thing that makes people unsure of the quality level and at these price tags there's no tolerance for these level os mistakes... But hey mistakes happen, toyota etc... the question is, how are they handled and rectified?
I like models, from ANY one, so no hater or fanboy here but this fiasco will be tattooed on GW forehead for a long time and if they don't make this right very fast they will be the motive of ridicule from anyone in the industry.
Kanluwen wrote:Way to pick one specific point out.
I wasn't picking out one specific point. This:
"left in the car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees Fahrenheit or higher and left in direct sunlight with no cloud cover at all inside of the original clamshell packaging to amplify the incoming light"
...is the potential result of shopping on a summer's day here in Oz. For that matter, for large chunks of the country, it's the potential result of shopping on a spring or autumn day, and possibly the occasional winter's day as well.
This isn't some sort of bizarre, never-going-to-actually-happen set of conditions.
You actually did pick out one specific point. You picked out the "car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees F or higher".
This isn't an equation where there's only one single variable to reach the answer. It's a multi-variable equation.
How many people just sling things into their backseat, full onto the window directly pumping light on them for hours at a time? I can't speak for you, but when I put stuff into my car during multiple trip shopping excursions, the stuff gets put on the floor or in such a way that it ends up going under the front seat.
There's also usually a paper/plastic/recycled cardboard bag that my stuff gets put into (but that is more because I don't stop and buy a single item if I go to a shop) which would even more throw off the "direct sunlight".
That is playing with semantics though, so I'll just say that I guess it will entirely depend on situations that I can't predict.
Kanluwen wrote:And as a sidenote:
It's not "playing with semantics" to say that warping does not equal melting. The two are not the same, by any stretch of the imagination.
To use an example:
You don't say that polystyrene cement "warps" the plastic together. It "melts" the plastic together.
You seein' the logic I'm laying down here Chibi?
Considering "melting" is when something is liquefied by exposure to heat, and "warping" is when something is bent or twisted out of shape... in this case by heat... it's the same damn thing. If you hold a model over a lighter for a couple of minutes, and the end result is a misshapen hunk of plastic, it could be accurately described as melted or warped. The main point is that the model is ruined by the heat. You are avoiding the main issue by focusing on word choice. You are being pedantic at best, purposefully obtuse at worst.
And again, your whole argument seems to be "don't complain about GW's bad product because other companies also made bad products". Well, that doesn't fly either, because other companies produce resin models and don't have anywhere near the QC issues displayed by Finecast, and they also aren't claiming their product as "something so special in fact that it's nothing less than a new era in wargaming... the next step in the evolution in tabletop miniatures wargaming...no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world." In this case, you are an apologist at best, a lickspittle at worst.
Kanluwen wrote:You actually did pick out one specific point. You picked out the "car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees F or higher".
This isn't an equation where there's only one single variable to reach the answer. It's a multi-variable equation.
How many people just sling things into their backseat, full onto the window directly pumping light on them for hours at a time? I can't speak for you, but when I put stuff into my car during multiple trip shopping excursions, the stuff gets put on the floor or in such a way that it ends up going under the front seat.
There's also usually a paper/plastic/recycled cardboard bag that my stuff gets put into (but that is more because I don't stop and buy a single item if I go to a shop) which would even more throw off the "direct sunlight".
That is playing with semantics though, so I'll just say that I guess it will entirely depend on situations that I can't predict.
Ohhh boy , i have never seen anyone posting so many contradicting things in one same thread. SO HERE WE GO!
First, the thing i just quoted, one can safely assume from your tone, that you believe the only heat capable of the damaging situation is direct light?
Which is funny, because as i recall , you used an example of your attic to prove the point that heat shouldnt be an issue?
So are you saying your attic doesnt have a roof? or you are been obtuse on purpose again?
Delephont wrote:point in case, I recently attempted the jump to Privateer Press Warmachine and purchased a starter box for Cryx, the plastic figures inside were TERRIBLE, you guys want to complain about Finecast? you aint seen anything, the detailing on these things were practically non existant....this was genuine CRAP....
Odd. My experience (bought the Khador starter and a box of Rippers) was the exact opposite. I'm extremely impressed with them.
Kanluwen wrote:You actually did pick out one specific point. You picked out the "car on a day with a temperature of 89 degrees F or higher".
Go have another look at my post. I did no such thing.
How many people just sling things into their backseat, full onto the window directly pumping light on them for hours at a time?
That would be most people, on a guess.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Meanwhile, now would seem like an opportune time to ask everyone to just settle down a little. The fact that someone has a different opinion to your own isn't the end of the world, no matter how much you may disagree with them. Keep it civil.
Omegus wrote:
Considering "melting" is when something is liquefied by exposure to heat, and "warping" is when something is bent or twisted out of shape... in this case by heat... it's the same damn thing. If you hold a model over a lighter for a couple of minutes, and the end result is a misshapen hunk of plastic, it could be accurately described as melted or warped. The main point is that the model is ruined by the heat. You are avoiding the main issue by focusing on word choice. You are being pedantic at best, purposefully obtuse at worst.
You are again, absolutely correct.
As the internal energy of a substance is increased, typically by the application of heat or pressure, resulting in a rise of its temperature to the melting point, at which the rigid ordering of molecular entities in the solid breaks down to a less-ordered state and the solid liquefies.
The warping and melting while visually different, behaves on same principal. The broken down of molecule bonds due to heat and pressure. ( which has been mentioned over and over again in this thread )
Anyone ( I'm sure there is) know the type of resin GW uses in finecast?
Trying to discover at what temp. various resins begin to warp/soften and if those temps are likely to occur within an enclosed vehicle.
Just remembered that there are also some reports of Finecasts thin pointy parts like spears etc snapping extremely easy ( thats another problem of going from minis projected to metal cast to resin cast ) now multiply this for the number of finecasts you will need in your armies... I can understand a resin for display or one special model that you need to take extra care but full units? Just not miniatures for gaming...
FITZZ wrote: Anyone ( I'm sure there is) know the type of resin GW uses in finecast?
Trying to discover at what temp. various resins begin to warp/soften and if those temps are likely to occur within an enclosed vehicle.
That's a good point, although it may not be as simple as that. From some of the pictures showing bubbling (Looks like boiling on the surface)---and the reports of the resin melting (Or as one put it, slimed)----that may actually be improper mixing of the resin materials. Which would explain why some do it---and some do not.
If you improperly mix a two part resin---then the resin will sweat over time---and that sweating is exacerbated by heat. Given the Gandalf example and how he stated it was a bad cast to begin with with those boil marks---I'm leaning towards GW having mixing problems with their resin (Pouring too quickly before properly mixed or the mixing ratio being off). Don't know though---it would be useful to see the specs on their resin mixture---but I doubt that's coming anytime soon .
RE: Privateer Press plastic---I'll simple echo insaniak here and state I've been nothing but impressed. Next to MaxMini---that's the fewest mold lines I've seen on any resin casts. There essentially were none, which means their molding department must make some really tight/professional molds.
Omegus wrote:Tell that to my DKoK. I've snapped quite a few lasguns. :<
Exactly, but in that case (a fw army) it was like a alternative option you took to field it but the mainstream ( gw armies) filled the bill... today with all the finecasts its not a option you choose to take, its imposed on you if you want to play those games. I predict a all new level of frustration just transporting these resins...
Omegus wrote:Tell that to my DKoK. I've snapped quite a few lasguns. :<
Exactly, but in that case (a fw army) it was like a alternative option you took to field it but the mainstream ( gw armies) filled the bill... today with all the finecasts its not a option you choose to take, its imposed on you if you want to play those games. I predict a all new level of frustration just transporting these resins...
Your core is still going to be plastic for the most part though. Well unless you are eldar.
LunaHound wrote:Is it safe for me to say, even from both sides of the argument.
That Finecast , as good as the concept is , still needs lots of work to be done before it turns into what It Intends To be.
All this argument back and forth will not change that current ultimate fact.
This is definitely true. Finecast isnt going anywhere, and it will get better. The big problem, though, is that GW should have done "lots of work" behind the scenes, and we should be seeing finecast when its been fine tuned.
Again, there's your problem-- the Internet has a long tradition of hating on GW wherever possible blah blah blah.
I don't recall seeing endless threads about the quality of the plastics, in fact most of the new releases have had glowing reviews aside from prices and I've never had any problems with miscast plastics aside from one set which was missing the same piece from each sprue (and which GW replaced).
That's because the plastics are so clearly objectively better than their predecessors that that sort of criticism would fall flat on its face-- and even still, I've seen people complaining even about popular kits like the new Grey Knights!
cadbren wrote:There have been some grumblings about the poor fit of some of the metal kits, the thunderfire canon I recall being widely criticized because of how it went together but nothing like the problems with this new "finecast" stuff.
I have two Thunderfire Cannons, and I will say right now that they are awful models (Techmarine aside). They are terrible. Most reported Finecast problems I've seen are nothing in comparison to the problems I've had with those.
cadbren wrote:Why is it that so many stories and pictures are popping up over this product? A conspiracy to hurt GW, the company that the complainers are buying all these models from? Sure that makes sense, let's buy models from a company we hate and then complain about them to make them really suffer, utter bollocks.
Nah. Lots of people just like complaining, especially online where you're not looking someone in the eye and it's unlikely that they'll have a chance to reply. Further, GW is one of those organizations that, for whatever reason, people love to hate. When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).
When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).
But you speak like they hit one out of the park with finecast. Clearly not the case. More like a foul ball. The plastic Dark Eldar are great. I've already seen issues with the Dark Eldar finecast though. You like GW are trying to push the failings of this product onto the customers.
This is yours and Kan attitude.
"Well what do you expect, did you think you could take it out of the blister and paint it, sure GW marketed it that way, but you should know you are gonna have to GS it. What do you expect from GW anyway miracles."
Omegus wrote:
You'll note I haven't been complaining in this thread. I have stated that this rate of failure, even if it is exaggerated twice over, is unacceptable for a product as hyped and expensive as GW miniatures, especially when no such issues were present in plastic or metal models. I then stated that even if that wasn't the case, I am still skeptical about Finecast until I know for sure it won't melt if I leave it in the trunk for a couple of hours. You retorted that this would only happen in "ridiculously specific circumstances" such as leaving it in the car at temperatures of 89 degrees or higher. But hey, even if Finecast isn't warping in the sun, you're displaying an admirable skill at warping reality and what people are actually saying. Kudos.
Fetterkey wrote:Nah. Lots of people just like complaining, especially online where you're not looking someone in the eye and it's unlikely that they'll have a chance to reply. Further, GW is one of those organizations that, for whatever reason, people love to hate. When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).
Really? Really? You can't think of any reason why people hate on GW?
I'm sure most of the people complaining about Finecast would love to give an earful to whoever at GW is responsible. Of course, GW is locked up in their ivory towers where no one can reach them, and they don't much care what us plebs think.
People arnt hating on fine cast because they are scared of change, its because its a change that dont have much improvement yet , very much flaws.
For example, people always loved plastic ( resin is the next step for GW that tries to close the gap between plastic and metal )
but GW did good job on plastic, ( have you ever seen much complaints about plastic? nope! )
Why? because ITS CHANGE DONE RIGHT.
When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).
But you speak like they hit one out of the park with finecast. Clearly not the case. More like a foul ball. The plastic Dark Eldar are great. I've already seen issues with the Dark Eldar finecast though. You like GW are trying to push the failings of this product onto the customers.
Er, no? I think Finecast is, overall, an improvement over metal. I think GW handled the release quite poorly from a PR perspective. That said, saying that Finecast isn't an improvement is, in my view, shortsighted and biased.
When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).
But you speak like they hit one out of the park with finecast. Clearly not the case. More like a foul ball. The plastic Dark Eldar are great. I've already seen issues with the Dark Eldar finecast though. You like GW are trying to push the failings of this product onto the customers.
Er, no? I think Finecast is, overall, an improvement over metal. I think GW handled the release quite poorly from a PR perspective. That said, saying that Finecast isn't an improvement is, in my view, shortsighted and biased.
You keep saying it's an improvement, how? If the process was perfected I might agree with you, but that is currently all theory. To say that it is already better you are simply ignoring the issues. Generally when a product gets improved you don't simultaneously see an increase in the amount of product return by 1000%. Am I missing something?
When you see a GW product that doesn't have complaints about it, that just means they've hit one out of the park (Dark Eldar).
But you speak like they hit one out of the park with finecast. Clearly not the case. More like a foul ball. The plastic Dark Eldar are great. I've already seen issues with the Dark Eldar finecast though. You like GW are trying to push the failings of this product onto the customers.
Er, no? I think Finecast is, overall, an improvement over metal. I think GW handled the release quite poorly from a PR perspective. That said, saying that Finecast isn't an improvement is, in my view, shortsighted and biased.
You keep saying it's an improvement, how? If the process was perfected I might agree with you, but that is currently all theory. To say that it is already better you are simply ignoring the issues. Generally when a product gets improved you don't simultaneously see an increase in the amount of product return by 1000%. Am I missing something?
I have to agree with Andrew here.
Finecast may be an "attempt" at improvement over metal ( though I honestly belive it's more of a case of GW trying to save themselves some money), but as the product stands now, it's a case of pedaling chicken gak and calling it chicken salad.
The new material allows more detailed, lighter weight models, and ones that are easier to assemble, convert, and paint to boot. In my book, those factors outweigh the higher rate of miscasts (especially since most are minor) and vulnerability to extreme heat. That said, I'm not sure to what extent these are in fact more vulnerable than plastics-- I have an interesting-looking Land Speeder lying around somewhere that got left on a table in the sun and didn't take too kindly to the process-- but they're almost certainly more vulnerable than metals. Whether that difference is meaningful or not has yet to be seen, of course.
I can confidently say that I would gladly exchange all existing metal models in my army for Finecast ones if doing so were an option, and I think that's a pretty good indicator that the new material is indeed better!
Fetterkey wrote:The new material allows more detailed, lighter weight models, and ones that are easier to assemble, convert, and paint to boot. In my book, those factors outweigh the higher rate of miscasts (especially since most are minor) and vulnerability to extreme heat. That said, I'm not sure to what extent these are in fact more vulnerable than plastics-- I have an interesting-looking Land Speeder lying around somewhere that got left on a table in the sun and didn't take too kindly to the process-- but they're almost certainly more vulnerable than metals.
I dont think the cons outweigh the pros yet. They will, and finecast will be a glorious and amazing thing. But as other people have said, we the consumers should not have to buy GWs buggy test runs.
The new material allows more detailed, lighter weight models, and ones that are easier to assemble, convert, and paint to boot.
Maybe? If you get one that isn't flawed! You contend that it is no big deal to GS stuff. GW's target demographic anymore is 12 year olds, do you really think they have the skill and patience to GS everything. I'm sorry but I started with metal, you know what you did, open the blister, pick off a bit of flash, glue a piece on here or there sometimes and then blast it with primer. THATS IT! 2 minutes and you are ready to paint.
Much better than.
Inspect at shop for major miscast or pray online store inspects for you, open blister inspect again, return it to store for another one, open blister inspect again, remove flash, find bubbles and flaws, GS, wait 2 hours, sand, GS again, wait 12 hours, sand, glue, prime, ohh didn't see that flaw before priming, more GS, wait 2 hours, sand, Pai.......oh wait ANOTHER GD BUBBLE ad nauseam!
In my book, those factors outweigh the higher rate of miscasts (especially since most are minor)
YOUR BOOK SUCKS! I'm judging it by the cover mind you, it says How to be a GW Toadie!
I dont think the cons outweigh the pros yet. They will, and finecast will be a glorious and amazing thing. But as other people have said, we the consumers should not have to buy GWs buggy test runs.
I agree wit you here, it hopefully will get better, until then GW has us paying huge amount to be their guinne pigs. NO OTHER HOBBY COMPANY COULD AFFORD TO DO THIS. Many other companies have switched to resin without these issues. Could you imagine what would happen to companies like mantic if they let this kind of quality regularly slip through CQ, they would loose every customer that they have and be out of business.
Please keep this discussion polite. Vitriol, from any perspective, has no place in a discussion about toy soldiers. If you want to be facetious, watch the venom and post at your own risk: if someone reads your post without getting your intention to be humorous and takes offense, a moderator just might read your post the same way.
Manchu wrote:Please keep this discussion polite. Vitriol, from any perspective, has no place in a discussion about toy soldiers. If you want to be facetious, watch the venom and post at your own risk: if someone reads your post without getting your intention to be humorous and takes offense, a moderator just might read your post the same way.
So basically, what you're saying is: "It's not fair to call GW out for selling you garbage while calling it gold, because other companies do the same thing."
Cool. That is great news. This means the next time I make a sculpting mistake I can make people stop pestering me about it by claiming someone else also did a mistake (and we all know GWs older miniature range is full of absolutely horrible minis) or failing that simply say "try doing better yourself."
Should people still pester me about an ventual mistake I´ll be sure to PM Kan for immediate in-thread assistance. This defense is now after all, Kan-approved.
It's not "playing with semantics" to say that warping does not equal melting. The two are not the same, by any stretch of the imagination.
To use an example:
You are right and I see your point and agree with it BUT... to be 100% tehnically correct "warping" (really a laymans term when applied to "viscoelastic creep - to - temperature graphs") is actually the very same thing as melting.
But then again it depnds on what you mean with "warping", is it as in bended in a mold or as in starting to alter shape and sag while heat is applied (in one of those never ocurring specially setup freakish cases like in a car outside a shopping mall on a warm summer day).
*munches popcorn*
So I'm guessing Fetterkey tagged out and Kan took his place? All we have to do is wait for Redbeard and Mystery to arrive and we'll have ourselves a little hand-waving quartet!
+1
Actually atm munching strawberries to this Kan vs the world, just cant barely be any better then this.
Ok, being balanced about things, I will admit you have a point. I think, in light of recent event's people have a huge desire to see GW fail,
Personally I have a desire to see GW improove, that or advertise its new product in a more realistic way.
You dont go buy a "fine dining" experiance for a ton of bucks and get an, eh, warped steak with big holes of it missing.
Bottom line, there are as far as I see it NO differences between GW finecast detail levels and FW custom minis, both have great detail, both have "warping" issues, both have swiss cheese holes in them and they both cost their weight in pure silver...but onlyGWs resin are sold as the worlds best.
The result is people nag and complain about both but we dont see as much complaining and well, hate over FWs resins simply because people buying them know what to expect.
I bet that if FW all of a sudden started to advertise their minis as the worlds best without upping the quality of them (no holes, no warping, no broken pieces) then people would react just as strongly.
Just remembered that there are also some reports of Finecasts thin pointy parts like spears etc snapping extremely easy ( thats another problem of going from minis projected to metal cast to resin cast ) now multiply this for the number of finecasts you will need in your armies... I can understand a resin for display or one special model that you need to take extra care but full units? Just not miniatures for gaming...
They should simply use the smoothcast 300 series of resin, for the cost of those minis GW could well afford it (especially if said cost is based on how much they can "get away with")
and we´ll get freaking bulletproof impact plastic super detailed miniatures that just might break if run over by a car.
Not that cheap-O microballot diluted crap they use now.
Is it safe for me to say, even from both sides of the argument.
That Finecast , as good as the concept is , still needs lots of work to be done before it turns into what It Intends To be.
Amen!
I have two Thunderfire Cannons, and I will say right now that they are awful models (Techmarine aside). They are terrible. Most reported Finecast problems I've seen are nothing in comparison to the problems I've had with those.
Fully agree.
However its the weight and non locking surfaces that make gluing impossible task.
Now to use your own argumenta against you:
The metal thunderfire cannons are not an issue since they can easily be assembled using greenstuff instead of glue (gluing with GS) for a perfect model that never falls apart and no drilling or pinning needed.
Whereas if the thunderfire cannon was a "finecast", well I shudder thinking of how many barrels and techmarine servo arms etc I would need to resculpt from scratch to fix.
Nah. Lots of people just like complaining, especially online where you're not looking someone in the eye and it's unlikely that they'll have a chance to reply. Further, GW is one of those organizations that, for whatever reason, people love to hate.
Really, I want to know, how much are they paying you? You can PM me discretely.
I can confidently say that I would gladly exchange all existing metal models in my army for Finecast ones if doing so were an option, and I think that's a pretty good indicator that the new material is indeed better!
Same here but unfortunatelly I´ll have to wait till I know for sure I dont need to spend a week resculpting flaws and they dont melt while traveling.
Thus, nice concept but needs tons of work before they get the amounts of customers they want.
Manchu wrote:Please keep this discussion polite. Vitriol, from any perspective, has no place in a discussion about toy soldiers. If you want to be facetious, watch the venom and post at your own risk: if someone reads your post without getting your intention to be humorous and takes offense, a moderator just might read your post the same way.
Sorry, did I forget this guy
Fixed
Is there something about someone having a different opinion that causes internet rage? I see people railing against finecast, and others liking it. You're not going to convince each other. I've got people in my shop buying up metal because they hate the new stuff, and others buying it and dumping the same models in metal on ebay, because they prefer it. People will disagree.
There's really no reason to have to put everyone into the "GW apologist" and "GW hater" catagories.
Manchu wrote:Please keep this discussion polite. Vitriol, from any perspective, has no place in a discussion about toy soldiers. If you want to be facetious, watch the venom and post at your own risk: if someone reads your post without getting your intention to be humorous and takes offense, a moderator just might read your post the same way.
Sorry, did I forget this guy
Fixed
Is there something about someone having a different opinion that causes internet rage? I see people railing against finecast, and others liking it. You're not going to convince each other. I've got people in my shop buying up metal because they hate the new stuff, and others buying it and dumping the same models in metal on ebay, because they prefer it. People will disagree.
There's really no reason to have to put everyone into the "GW apologist" and "GW hater" catagories.
It wasn't meant to be rage, I thought it was a clever turn of the use of the term "in my book". I can understand if people got a good one liking the stuff, hands down sounds better. But to defend the miscasts as anything but miscasts is just silly. You have to admit many of these responses sound right out of a corporate hand book or a used car lot.
"Of course this car doesn't have a bumper, sure it came with one when it was new, but it's so safe we removed it to save you gas mileage!
I really wanted to buy bunch of finecast Ushabitis that is actually cheaper than the metal ones.
I wanted to assemble the resin ones that is supposed to be easier than metal. Because its not a surprise, i SUCK at assembling things ( not going to deny this ever! )
But you know , the truth is, it makes me sad seeing GW staff's reaction. He knew i loved Ushabities, he know i have been waiting for them, when we open checked on the finecasts one by one,
you can see the staff's face is filled with sadness and sympathy as THEY WERE ALL defective. I wasnt the one that said anything , the staff himself did.
After the whole in shop stock of Ushabities wasnt up to standard to be sold to the customers, they offered solution of mail order. Which i said, i know GW will honor to replace the defects,
but im just burnt out upon seeing all of them to be failures, and i doubt the replacements will be perfect. And i dont want to phone them time after time to get new ones ( which isnt exactly guaranteed to be none defective )
So i told them i'll wait few months till maybe they fix the issues and i will just work on something else during the time. Everyone was just depressed about it ....
Its weird isnt it, many people think im Anti GW, but when i look at my own actions, i really dont think so. Im not even the type that gets happy to receive additional replacements for defective things,
infact i have held back MANY TIMES on not getting replacements.
Fetterkey wrote:That said, saying that Finecast isn't an improvement is, in my view, shortsighted and biased.
No offense, but imo that statement seems very shortsighted. I think a fairer statement would be to say that Finecast is an improvement is some areas, but has failed in others (as others have pointed out). As with anything, there's always room for improvement and who knows, maybe when they sort out the current problems, Finecast may indeed be an improvement overall in the long run.
But just because someone has a different opinion, doesn't make them shortsighted or biased (well not always.. I guess it depends on how they say it).
Kanluwen wrote: If I actually had any Finecast, sure I would.
Kanluwen wrote: If I actually had any Finecast
Kanluwen wrote: If I actually had any Finecast
Kanluwen wrote: If I actually had any Finecast
So you're defending something that you haven't even purchased? And in all likelihood will never purchase because you know, deep down inside, that finecrap is a scam and an embarrassment? Good job dan man, really taking one for the team there.
Ouze wrote:perhaps we should stick with the less-ambiguous topic at hand until there is real evidence of the above, at which point a new post should be made discussing it.
You are right, this topic seems ambiguous at first glance , but only because finecast has so many present problems , agreed?
The only reason its talking about warping atm is because kanluwen deflected the discussion away from the miscasts. Intended or not, hmm! good question.
We are indeed agreed. I think theoretical finecast is awesome, but current reality finecast is not. I mentioned that we should not be discussing the heat element for a reason... Throughout this conversation, the people who think the current finecast QC is acceptable and this is all a big to-do about nothing have been hopping on the slightest hair (literally) to divert the discussion into a direction that doesn't involve the fact that over 50% of models Wayland polled had moderate to extreme casting flaws. I can understand why, from an apologist perspective, this is an undesirable avenue to explore.
The heat issue, I dunno. 2 anonymous people on the internets is kinda meaningless to me. The fact that you leave a mini in a car on a hot day and it gets ruined is not in my mind is not necessarily a problem. Dogs, ice cream, and minis all shouldn't be left in a car on a hot day for any amount of time. The only point in which this becomes a finecast-specific problem is if the heat sensitivity is in excess of what you'd expect plastic to tolerate. We haven't established this one way or the other.
We have established that Wayland Games looked at 60 blisters and found more then 50% had casting flaws and that the hairs in some indicate a sloppy manufacturing process. I'd rather stay away from the dubious and uncertain problems that finecast may or may not have and continue focus on the clear and unambiguous ones, is what I was saying.
Manchu wrote:Please keep this discussion polite. Vitriol, from any perspective, has no place in a discussion about toy soldiers. If you want to be facetious, watch the venom and post at your own risk: if someone reads your post without getting your intention to be humorous and takes offense, a moderator just might read your post the same way.
Sorry, did I forget this guy
Fixed
Is there something about someone having a different opinion that causes internet rage? I see people railing against finecast, and others liking it. You're not going to convince each other. I've got people in my shop buying up metal because they hate the new stuff, and others buying it and dumping the same models in metal on ebay, because they prefer it. People will disagree.
There's really no reason to have to put everyone into the "GW apologist" and "GW hater" catagories.
It's easier to call someone a hater or a fanboi than to engage with their arguments.
I have two Thunderfire Cannons, and I will say right now that they are awful models (Techmarine aside). They are terrible. Most reported Finecast problems I've seen are nothing in comparison to the problems I've had with those.
Fully agree.
However its the weight and non locking surfaces that make gluing impossible task.
Now to use your own argumenta against you:
The metal thunderfire cannons are not an issue since they can easily be assembled using greenstuff instead of glue (gluing with GS) for a perfect model that never falls apart and no drilling or pinning needed.
Whereas if the thunderfire cannon was a "finecast", well I shudder thinking of how many barrels and techmarine servo arms etc I would need to resculpt from scratch to fix.
Unfortunately, the Thunderfire Cannons I have suffer not only from the above flaws but are also seriously miscast or misaligned somehow, so the holes in the barrel for the recoil compensators don't line up correctly and the compensators cannot be fit onto the barrels. Were they Finecast, I could probably cut new holes myself, but they are not. If the TFC goes to Finecast I'll be buying two.
Pyriel- wrote:
Nah. Lots of people just like complaining, especially online where you're not looking someone in the eye and it's unlikely that they'll have a chance to reply. Further, GW is one of those organizations that, for whatever reason, people love to hate.
Really, I want to know, how much are they paying you? You can PM me discretely.
I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor do I ever plan to be on the GW payroll.
Pyriel- wrote:
I can confidently say that I would gladly exchange all existing metal models in my army for Finecast ones if doing so were an option, and I think that's a pretty good indicator that the new material is indeed better!
Same here but unfortunatelly I´ll have to wait till I know for sure I dont need to spend a week resculpting flaws and they dont melt while traveling.
Thus, nice concept but needs tons of work before they get the amounts of customers they want.
That's fair. If I were less confident in my ability to work around potential air bubbles and the like, I too would wait before pulling the trigger on Finecast. Make no mistake about it, the current error rate is much higher than I'd like to see, but in my eyes it's acceptable in the context of the first run of a new casting process, especially given GW's well-known generosity when it comes to returns.
I have nothing to contribute concerning Finecast, but wanted to add my two cents on the pube-in-blister question.
A while back, I picked up a Winged Vampire Lord at my FLGS. When I got it home, there appeared to be a big, nasty pubic hair in the package. I took a bunch of pictures, planning to send a scorching email to GW.
However, I didn't really want to go to the trouble of getting a replacement, and I wash the minis before I paint them anyway, so I opened the blister. And found, to my immense relief, that what had looked absolutely exactly like a pubic hair was in fact a strand of plastic coming off the base sprue:
I wonder if what Wayland encountered was something similar.
A couple misconceptions have been thrown around in this thread.
1. The plastic models from Privateer Press are NOT the same as Finecast.
2. The plastic/resin used by Mantic is NOT the same as Finecast, nor is it the same as Privateer's plastics.
Both of these competitors' materials are sturdy, strong plastic materials with no air bubbles or missing detail.
I have multiple Warjacks, Fennblades for Trollbloods, and a Denegra and Stryker plastic models.
The weakest of these are the 2 casters, where there was mold slipping.
Otherwise, there is barely mold lines to remove, and most work involved cleaning off injection ports.
I have the Mantic Revenant Knights cavalry unit, made of their plastic/resin. I have the same models in metal.
These have no mold lines to speak of, and again, only the sprue attachments need to be cleaned up.
The differences between the two are minimal, but they are different. The PP stuff is less brittle or rigid.
There is a color difference, but I believe that to be just a pigmentation difference.
I bought an Emperor's Champion from my local GW on Thursday this week. It is a Finecast.
It went together well, and there are only a few flaws.
The top of the sword arm shoulder pad is flawed. It looks as though the mold has the flaw.
There is no rim to it, it is gouged a bit. Once it is assembled, it is unseen.
Another thing is the flash was so thick, I took off the rivets on the thighs without realizing it.
And I knew they were supposed to be there.
Also, the sword is curved. I have straightened it under hot water/cold water twice already and it goes back.
As nice as my model turned out, I am unhappy with it. It feels cheap and fragile in a way that metals and even plastics do not.
I am positive that with very little pressure, the hilt pieces would break off, where a metal version would merely bend.
Also, I really feel for the shop manager.
There were 2 other Champions on the shelf that I left.
One had the flawed Terminator cross on the chest, where a bubble had displaced the bottom bar of the cross.
The other had bubbles on the tabard.
If other customers look these over, and see what I did, they will sit on the shelf.
The manager cannot send them back. A customer has to buy and return them first.
Gaps and flash are flaws that we lived with in metal. They are still going to happen with Finecast.
In addition, we get bubbles and missing parts in some cases.
If other customers look these over, and see what I did, they will sit on the shelf.
The manager cannot send them back. A customer has to buy and return them first.
I think Mikhaila would argue with you on that point. GW for all it's faults does seam to handle returns well. I personally wouldn't know, I haven't had to return anything since I bought the original Eldar Harlequin box set in 1992 (1miscast and 1 missing). Since then I have never had a quality issue with GW, it has been one of their saving graces to me.........until now that is.
Wait, wait wait, so you're saying the only time you'd engage someone in a discussion is if their argument is valid?
Isn't an invalid argument really easy to take down without calling them names?
I think Fetterkey and Kanluwen are dead wrong. Like wrong in so many ways as to be kind of funny really, but I don't need to call them a fanboi, or a troll, or a GW plant to get my point across.
Personally I think that has yet to be proven. They only really look more detailed because of the way light hits the material, the edges on metal look softer or rounder than they really are. From the examples I've seen of primed models the difference between metal and Finecast is almost unnoticeable. Or rather it would be, if the Finecast model wasn't covered in bubbles that made it a dead give away.
Fetterkey wrote:
Er, no? I think Finecast is, overall, an improvement over metal. I think GW handled the release quite poorly from a PR perspective. That said, saying that Finecast isn't an improvement is, in my view, shortsighted and biased.
I can confidently say that I would gladly exchange all existing metal models in my army for Finecast ones if doing so were an option, and I think that's a pretty good indicator that the new material is indeed better!
Just because you would exchange all your stuff doesnt mean others would, nor does it make for evidence that the material is any better. You seem very good at claiming your opinion as objective fact.
I prefer metal, I think it's more robust, there's also a matter of personal preference which shouldn't be dismissed, that counts for something too. The melting I'm not sure about, I doubt they will melt, but a big figure might bend over at the legs and then I'd have to ask if that would be correctible or whether the legs would have stretched slightly or show other signs of deformity once they have been straightened. Would the figure also need repainting? I'm also not convinced by the 'more detail' argument which is overhyped by GW spin. The difference is tiny if anything at all, hardly worth the swithchover in materials. The other thing I don't like are the number of runners that go into the figures on the sprues, there is a lot of potential for the figure to be damaged in packaging or transit or when trying to remove them on the modelling table.
The only advantage I cantake seriously with finecast is that they are softer, easier to cut. Frankly, I don't see that metal was a great hardship. It might be quicker to clean up a finecast, but didnt the hype claim you wouldn't have to be doing this? Paint straight from the pack or something. I'm not in a rush, metal being a harder more durable material is something I'm happy to live with actually, it's hardly worth changing to resin which presents more issues.
And all this before the quality control issues with airbubbles and miscasts. I've never seen this many with metal, just hasn't happened with any other company I can think of to send figures out with these many problems. All the claims that finecast is better hinge on the product being defect free. The reality is that it isn't. How long until it is? Six months? When will finecast be proven to be so superior? As far as I'm concerned even if fully defect free it isn't an improvement, it's no wonder product, just a money saving tactic from GW. One which will burn them badly if they are having a lot of returns to deal with.
ph34r wrote:Kilkrazy posts really weird pictures of asian girls and Frazzled posts like the crazy mod uncle. Someone's gotta keep moderation "interesting".
When you become a mod, you get to pick one really annoying posting style and flaunt it as your trademark.
Kilkrazy wrote:<some asian girl making an ugly dumbass face>
What's the deal with you and pictures of asian girls making ugly dumbass faces?
Fetterkey wrote:
ph34r wrote:Kilkrazy posts really weird pictures of asian girls and Frazzled posts like the crazy mod uncle. Someone's gotta keep moderation "interesting".
When you become a mod, you get to pick one really annoying posting style and flaunt it as your trademark.
The heat issue, I dunno. 2 anonymous people on the internets is kinda meaningless to me. The fact that you leave a mini in a car on a hot day and it gets ruined is not in my mind is not necessarily a problem. Dogs, ice cream, and minis all shouldn't be left in a car on a hot day for any amount of time.
I'd hazard the folks saying that dont leave in areas that heat IS a problem. Anytime in say, Texas where the temp gets to 105 pretty easily, hotter in the car. If you have to go somewhere for any amount of time and stick them in the trunk.....
The heat issue, I dunno. 2 anonymous people on the internets is kinda meaningless to me. The fact that you leave a mini in a car on a hot day and it gets ruined is not in my mind is not necessarily a problem. Dogs, ice cream, and minis all shouldn't be left in a car on a hot day for any amount of time.
I'd hazard the folks saying that dont leave in areas that heat IS a problem. Anytime in say, Texas where the temp gets to 105 pretty easily, hotter in the car. If you have to go somewhere for any amount of time and stick them in the trunk.....
Considering we have people who spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars have been spent on science rolling of dice... You would think *someone* would be motivated enough to go tot he store, buy a 30$ model and attempt to 'melt' it under some scientific experiments mythbusters style.
If you really believe in Failcast, then become the next hero by proving that failcast in your car melts like a box of crayons. If it was really this easy, show every one of the scenarios and see what happens.
*left on a sunny window ledge
*under a display case direct lamp
*Left in a hot car in the middle of summer:
-inside your trunk in a case
-inside your back seat (direct sun) in a case
-Directly exposed in your car
Who is gonna go Mr. Wizard and prove this myth stuff? or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?
nkelsch wrote:[
or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?
Sigh... 36 degress here today... call it a lie, or imaginative fabrication whatever... I'm just not willing to spend stupid money on a miniature that I have to resculpt half of it and then paint it to then be constantly dodging the sun just because I don't want to potentially ruin my time and money investment... thats a hassle I don't have with any other companies.
Funny how everything is a lie... I tell you what you keep spending money on finecast and I will just wait for a revised product... lie or not I'm just not interested in burning money to check it out in the flesh, Ill leave that to you and the people who buy the stuff...
I collect , nids and gobbos and those are not 1 or 2 finecasts...
OK well besides that you really do not understand statistics its all fine. They made a point estimate based on a sample size of 60. You do not need to know the population size to get a reasonable estimates and confidence intervals. It doesn't matter if they sample 1% or 20% the confidence interval remains the same. Just FYI
What are you talking about? Ever heard of a confidence interval calculator? Two numbers 95% and 99% confidence can be decided by the sample size taken based on the population size.
@ancientsociety Thanks for breaking it down for me. I totally missed the fact that it isn't Wayland games responsibilty to QC GW but then why did they? hmmmm Looks like they bit off more than they could chew with making a statment of "For your information, we sampled and then assessed 60 sealed blisters with 30 taken at random from each of two deliveries of stock. Failures were 17 (57%) of 30 and 16 (53%) of 30, making 33 (55%) of 60 in total." Quoted from OP.
Ok, someone might have already addressed this, but I don't have the patience to let this stand for 15 more pages without being corrected.
You are REALLY wrong on your stats. Conveniently, the link you provided even demonstrates why.
"This means that a sample of 500 people is equally useful in examining the opinions of a state of 15,000,000 as it would a city of 100,000"
Using the tool they provided, a sample size of 60 gives a range of 55 +/-12.59 at 95% confident no matter what the population size is. (If you give a very large one or leave it blank it even ignores it.) So you can be 95% confident that between 32% and 68% of the entire population are defective enough to fall into Wayland's "return this" pile, assuming they really did do a random sample of 30. Doesn't matter if they ordered 600 or 60,000 models.
The population size has nearly zero bearing on your confidence intervals unless your sample is a moderately large percentage of your population, and even then as sample size approaches population size the interval just gets smaller, i.e. more accurate.
So Wayland's numbers are just fine, and not misleading at all. You can argue that their definition of "unsellable" is so broad as to be meaningless, but their statistics are sound.
Thanks for the link to that site, by the way. That's a useful little calculator, and the description is useful for folks who don't know much stat. I suggest you read it a few times.
The heat issue, I dunno. 2 anonymous people on the internets is kinda meaningless to me. The fact that you leave a mini in a car on a hot day and it gets ruined is not in my mind is not necessarily a problem. Dogs, ice cream, and minis all shouldn't be left in a car on a hot day for any amount of time.
I'd hazard the folks saying that dont leave in areas that heat IS a problem. Anytime in say, Texas where the temp gets to 105 pretty easily, hotter in the car. If you have to go somewhere for any amount of time and stick them in the trunk.....
Considering we have people who spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars have been spent on science rolling of dice... You would think *someone* would be motivated enough to go tot he store, buy a 30$ model and attempt to 'melt' it under some scientific experiments mythbusters style.
If you really believe in Failcast, then become the next hero by proving that failcast in your car melts like a box of crayons. If it was really this easy, show every one of the scenarios and see what happens.
*left on a sunny window ledge
*under a display case direct lamp
*Left in a hot car in the middle of summer:
-inside your trunk in a case
-inside your back seat (direct sun) in a case
-Directly exposed in your car
Who is gonna go Mr. Wizard and prove this myth stuff? or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?
If people pitched in, I would be willing to purchase a Failcrap model just so we could see if it melted.
I'd love to help out. But sadly I don't own a car, and whilst it's beautiful today, living in England the weather is pretty crappy for the most part, and my flat doesn't get the Sun. Big massive trees ring the graveyard, preventing direct sunlight hitting my living room.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Vlad...nice way to unfortunately invalidate your opinion. Seeing as you don't actually own any, I do wonder exactly what your conclusions are based on? Hearsay? Chinese Whispers? Wishful Thinking?
I'd love to help out. But sadly I don't own a car, and whilst it's beautiful today, living in England the weather is pretty crappy for the most part, and my flat doesn't get the Sun. Big massive trees ring the graveyard, preventing direct sunlight hitting my living room.
Ah this explains why you are such a morbid, miserable ....
hang on, I also live in a house that doesn't get the Sun. Big massive trees ring the graveyard,
Mr Mystery wrote:I'd love to help out. But sadly I don't own a car, and whilst it's beautiful today, living in England the weather is pretty crappy for the most part, and my flat doesn't get the Sun.
On the positive side of living in a gloomy place like Eyeore is that in those occassional very hot (by Britsish standards) summer days the house is lovely and cool wothout recourse to air conditoning
And there is no chance of wilting the Finecast models!
nkelsch wrote:
Considering we have people who spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars have been spent on science rolling of dice... You would think *someone* would be motivated enough to go tot he store, buy a 30$ model and attempt to 'melt' it under some scientific experiments mythbusters style.
Most people that are on the negative side of fine cast arent willing to spend money on it to try. Folks on the positive side of finecast arent going to put their stuff at risk.
Seen enough to know not to put it in heat, but not like I was getting some anyway.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:On the positive side of living in a gloomy place like Eyeore is that in those occassional very hot (by Britsish standards) summer days the house is lovely and cool wothout recourse to air conditoning
And there is no chance of wilting the Finecast models!
Cabinet at my local GW hasn't melta any Finecast, and that gets scorchingly hot. Right next to the till it is. Where I used to cash up. My oh my that got stupidly hot, even around 6p.m.!
nkelsch wrote:[
or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?
Sigh... 36 degress here today... call it a lie, or imaginative fabrication whatever... I'm just not willing to spend stupid money on a miniature that I have to resculpt half of it and then paint it to then be constantly dodging the sun just because I don't want to potentially ruin my time and money investment... thats a hassle I don't have with any other companies.
Funny how everything is a lie... I tell you what you keep spending money on finecast and I will just wait for a revised product... lie or not I'm just not interested in burning money to check it out in the flesh, Ill leave that to you and the people who buy the stuff...
You might not, but someone else might be willing. Someone was willing to prove rounded dice roll 30% 1s (or at least make an attempt to). If Finecast really did melt easily due to casual exposure to common tempatures, then I think it would be easy to prove, and the way people on the internet love fighting and being right, it would be IMHO a good way to settle it or at least back their claim.
I am not convinced that this stuff will melt or disfigure by casually being exposed to 110 degree tempature or less, but if it did, I would actually like to know it so I would know my finecast needed to be taken out of my car the same way I don't leave electronics in my car (I work in IT and have seen lots of people leave laptops in subfreezing cars and ruin the LCD screen.)
I don't think you need to be an apologist to want to see actual evidence if this stuff melts the way people claim... I think knowing the truth would be good for all opposed to the myth of a heat boogeyman out to gobble up my Gandalf.
Kilkrazy wrote:<some asian girl making an ugly dumbass face>
What's the deal with you and pictures of asian girls making ugly dumbass faces?
Kilkrazy posts really weird pictures of asian girls and Frazzled posts like the crazy mod uncle. Someone's gotta keep moderation "interesting".
Frazzled is the one that posts all the pictures of dachshunds? Dachshunds are a superior life form, so that's cool. Asian girls making chipmunk faces are nowhere near as "interesting", and bespeak of Kilkrazy's no doubt disturbing fetishes. I mean, you can't really compare this:
to this:
Although the last one Kilkrazy posted was pretty cute.
nkelsch wrote:[
or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?
Sigh... 36 degress here today... call it a lie, or imaginative fabrication whatever... I'm just not willing to spend stupid money on a miniature that I have to resculpt half of it and then paint it to then be constantly dodging the sun just because I don't want to potentially ruin my time and money investment... thats a hassle I don't have with any other companies.
Funny how everything is a lie... I tell you what you keep spending money on finecast and I will just wait for a revised product... lie or not I'm just not interested in burning money to check it out in the flesh, Ill leave that to you and the people who buy the stuff...
You might not, but someone else might be willing. Someone was willing to prove rounded dice roll 30% 1s (or at least make an attempt to). If Finecast really did melt easily due to casual exposure to common tempatures, then I think it would be easy to prove, and the way people on the internet love fighting and being right, it would be IMHO a good way to settle it or at least back their claim.
I am not convinced that this stuff will melt or disfigure by casually being exposed to 110 degree tempature or less, but if it did, I would actually like to know it so I would know my finecast needed to be taken out of my car the same way I don't leave electronics in my car (I work in IT and have seen lots of people leave laptops in subfreezing cars and ruin the LCD screen.)
I don't think you need to be an apologist to want to see actual evidence if this stuff melts the way people claim... I think knowing the truth would be good for all opposed to the myth of a heat boogeyman out to gobble up my Gandalf.
You can supposedly BEND them under hot water. Are you joking here? There is no mythbusters here- You heat them up, they're going to bend. You continue to expose them to heat- they will melt.
You are supposed to be able to "Fix bent weapons with running them under the HOT water, or use the hair dryer method...". (This is from GW themselves, by the way.) The next obvious thing that would happen is that you WILL melt them with exposure to heat. Finecrap is lighter then plastic. It doesn't hold the same meltpoints as plastic does- Why would anyone think that it did? where does that even come into the conversation?
They're made out of plexible plesin, what exactly would you think would happen?
Anyone who says otherwise is not even being realistic here and is engaging in wishful thinking. Thats not even in the conversation here.
Seriously? You heat something up... and it won't melt? Where does that happen again?
If you don't want to "believe" it? Hey thats fine- you can chalk that up there with the favorable pictures of Fine crap that supposedly exist as well.
Personally I think that has yet to be proven. They only really look more detailed because of the way light hits the material, the edges on metal look softer or rounder than they really are. From the examples I've seen of primed models the difference between metal and Finecast is almost unnoticeable. Or rather it would be, if the Finecast model wasn't covered in bubbles that made it a dead give away.
I assemble and paint a LOT of models, resin, plastic and metal. Besides my own personal armies, I do commission work as well.
I have examined several fine cast models personally, out of the blister under magnification and with the naked eye.
I directly compared them to the same models in metal (un primed and unpainted).
I can say the fine cast models were of finer detail than their metal counterparts, without a doubt.
* the edges were all finer - they came to a sharper point.
* the recesses had more detail and were much more crisp in their depth and contrast.
I only found very minor flaws in the cast, and would rate it overall on par or better than a good quality forgeworld cast.
(I say good forgeworld cast, as I have encountered many bad (usually mold shifted) forgeworld casts).
Note: I did not buy any finecast, and do not plan to at any time, there were minis a friend of mine brought by for me to examine.
Again, this is not the "lighting' nor trick photography.
On the "primered" comment, I primer a LOT of minis....and have to say, if you observe models which have lost that much detail, I would suggest to the person who primed them (who ever showed them to you) to switch to a different primer immediately, for not only are they losing detail on their finecast minis, they are undoubtedly losing details on their plastics as well.
Personally, I suggest:
* armory brand - for medium quality work.
* tamaya white through an airbrush for higher quality work
* allclad grey primer through an airbrush for higher quality work.
note on the allclad - this stuff is so fine, it requires a SIGNIFICANT amount of ventilation - it literally comes out more like a fog. It is very expensive, but produces amazing results.
Most of my clients are willing to spend the extra cost on it (or allclad black, which is almost as fine, but gloss black).
So finally in conclusion; While I do not support GW's business practices, and I think that their quality control issues are indicative of greater management issues embedded within their corporate culture, I can say the finecast models that I have seen are indeed more detailed.
This is what I did to an aircraft kit with a hairdrier
Resin I am informed has a "memory" which is why it will go back into shape when heated.
Plastic doesn't.
I may be wrong but would suggest that the mixture of means that the platic resin has some properties of the two, but excessive heat causes it to behave more like styrene?
Grot 6 wrote:
They're made out of plexible plesin, what exactly would you think would happen?
Anyone who says otherwise is not even being realistic here and is engaging in wishful thinking. Thats not even in the conversation here.
Seriously? You heat something up... and it won't melt? Where does that happen again?
If you don't want to "believe" it? Hey thats fine- you can chalk that up there with the favorable pictures of Fine crap that supposedly exist as well.
I have Resin from dozens of companies made from dozens of types of plastics and resins... "sure it can melt" and "it does melt in my car" are two different things.
We all know putting minis in UNREASONABLE situations will cause them to melt. In the oven with 150 degrees +? yeah, it will melt. Exposed to boiling water? yeah, it will become FLEXIBLE but not melt. Expose to extended heat under a blowdryer or water? You can get some bending. Personally I ran mine under tap water for minutes and it didn't get spaghetti-like at all and was not flexible enough for me to model with, I had to use BOILING water... Just like other resins.
Last time I checked, my car doesn't get to 160 degrees in the sun. The claims of minis melting under REASONABLE situations like a lamp in a mini display case or heat of a car hasn't actually happened, and right now from the material *I* have doesn't appear like it will warp or melt any more or less than any other resin product I have when it comes to car/sun/bulb heat. How come no one complained about metal models chipping and breaking when expanding and contracting in freezing weather? Other materials become damaged when left in extreme tempatures too.
If it was easy and common to just leave it in your car and Gandalf goes from a majestic pose to slouching holding a wet noodle, then It seams like it would be simple to prove.
I have a Painboy with a very thin needle part on his 'urty syringe and a bosspole... I will be glad to leave him in my car all week on my dashboard of my car to see if the heat and gravity melts or warps him. Of course if it doesn't melt, people will say I am doing it wrong and am an apologist.
There is crazy hyperbole going on which is totally unsubstantiated right now which people are re-stating over and over as hard fact. If it was true, it is really easy to prove.
nkelsch wrote:[
or is just making it up and repeating it ad nasuium good enough for science?
Sigh... 36 degress here today... call it a lie, or imaginative fabrication whatever... I'm just not willing to spend stupid money on a miniature that I have to resculpt half of it and then paint it to then be constantly dodging the sun just because I don't want to potentially ruin my time and money investment... thats a hassle I don't have with any other companies.
Funny how everything is a lie... I tell you what you keep spending money on finecast and I will just wait for a revised product... lie or not I'm just not interested in burning money to check it out in the flesh, Ill leave that to you and the people who buy the stuff...
You might not, but someone else might be willing. Someone was willing to prove rounded dice roll 30% 1s (or at least make an attempt to). If Finecast really did melt easily due to casual exposure to common tempatures, then I think it would be easy to prove, and the way people on the internet love fighting and being right, it would be IMHO a good way to settle it or at least back their claim.
I am not convinced that this stuff will melt or disfigure by casually being exposed to 110 degree tempature or less, but if it did, I would actually like to know it so I would know my finecast needed to be taken out of my car the same way I don't leave electronics in my car (I work in IT and have seen lots of people leave laptops in subfreezing cars and ruin the LCD screen.)
I don't think you need to be an apologist to want to see actual evidence if this stuff melts the way people claim... I think knowing the truth would be good for all opposed to the myth of a heat boogeyman out to gobble up my Gandalf.
You can supposedly BEND them under hot water. Are you joking here? There is no mythbusters here- You heat them up, they're going to bend. You continue to expose them to heat- they will melt.
You are supposed to be able to "Fix bent weapons with running them under the HOT water, or use the hair dryer method...". (This is from GW themselves, by the way.) The next obvious thing that would happen is that you WILL melt them with exposure to heat. Finecrap is lighter then plastic. It doesn't hold the same meltpoints as plastic does- Why would anyone think that it did? where does that even come into the conversation?
They're made out of plexible plesin, what exactly would you think would happen?
Anyone who says otherwise is not even being realistic here and is engaging in wishful thinking. Thats not even in the conversation here.
Seriously? You heat something up... and it won't melt? Where does that happen again?
If you don't want to "believe" it? Hey thats fine- you can chalk that up there with the favorable pictures of Fine crap that supposedly exist as well.
Grot, I think you and me are on the same side when it comes to the "war on GW quality", and while I want to support your argument, I feel it is impossible to do so. There are pictures of "good" Finecast products out there, just do an internet search and you will see them, but what exactly will that prove? I would suggest that all it would do is give you a suggestion that there are in fact good products and bad products.......period.
Regarding the melting of Finecast......if someone else does this test, you won't believe the outcome, hell, neither would I. So the only way to do this is to purchase a figure yourself and try it out.....what have you got to lose, if it warps, simply complain and get a refund from GW, if not, then, you have a miniature you can trust......win win.
Well, I had my doubts on all of the Finecast hate until yesterday. I ordered 3 Dark Eldar Haemonculi through my FLGS. There is a knife/sword weapon thing that comes with each of them and initially they looked like they were fine. When I get them out of the package, the backside of each of the knife/sword weapon things were completely unformed. It looked like it was just a garbled mess of resin. One of them was a little salvageable. I had to use my hobby knife to try and "carve" out the sections in the weapon. It looks pretty messed up right now but it will pass. As for the other two, they are completely un-salvageable. One of them looks as if it has wood chips or something in it. I tried to take pictures of it but my iPhone doesn't really take pictures very well. I will be calling GW Monday and hoping that they send me new ones or hook me up with something. Because, these Haemonculi aren't exactly cheap and it pisses me off that the weapons on them are messed up. I suppose I will have to chop the swords off at the hand and just replace them with Wych weapons which will probably look better in the long run so they all don't look the exact same. *sigh*
FITZZ wrote: Hmm, I know that here in the South the interior of a car can easily reach 140+ temps.
If your car is getting hot enough to almost boil water and burn human flesh by sitting in the sun in your region... then maybe you need to consider not leaving your models in the car?
Most resins and plastic models will warp or melt at 140+ degrees (the temp to burn human skin) So how is that a finecast or GW problem?
Remember...
Tap Water: 120 degrees
Human skin burns: 140 degrees
Hairdryer: 150-200 degrees
Boiling water: 160 Degrees
Oven low-end: 250 degrees
Temp inside a car with the windows closed when sitting for 4+ hours on an 100 degree day: 115 degrees.
There are plenty of Dog advocacy groups who have done extensive research into this.
If it has to be 125 degrees outside for the inside of my car to reach 140+... then I am going to say on the rare occasion that you spit in the eye of god that you live in a region that it gets 125 degrees, then don't leave your crap in the car... most people who have a 100 degree day won't have any problems or a trunk full of resin puddles where their Gandalfs used to be.
Kurce wrote:Well, I had my doubts on all of the Finecast hate until yesterday. I ordered 3 Dark Eldar Haemonculi through my FLGS. There is a knife/sword weapon thing that comes with each of them and initially they looked like they were fine. When I get them out of the package, the backside of each of the knife/sword weapon things were completely unformed. It looked like it was just a garbled mess of resin. One of them was a little salvageable. I had to use my hobby knife to try and "carve" out the sections in the weapon. It looks pretty messed up right now but it will pass. As for the other two, they are completely un-salvageable. One of them looks as if it has wood chips or something in it. I tried to take pictures of it but my iPhone doesn't really take pictures very well. I will be calling GW Monday and hoping that they send me new ones or hook me up with something. Because, these Haemonculi aren't exactly cheap and it pisses me off that the weapons on them are messed up. I suppose I will have to chop the swords off at the hand and just replace them with Wych weapons which will probably look better in the long run so they all don't look the exact same. *sigh*
That's the real issue with "finecast", the fact that so many people are not getting what they paid for.
When GW trumpets a product a "Top of the line" and so many costumers keep finding unacceptable problems with their purchases, it's time Gw admit they dropped the ball.
In addition to the risk of being abducted if they are left alone in a car, on a typical summer day, the temperature inside a car (even with the windows rolled down a little) can quickly rise above 120 to 140 degrees.
•a 6 month old 'baby died when accidentally left in hot car for 3 hrs, died when outside 90-degree temperatures rose to 130 degrees inside closed car, parents thought the other had carried the baby from the car to crib'
Automatically Appended Next Post:
carmachu wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Last time I checked, my car doesn't get to 160 degrees in the sun.
No but a good pediatrics website, warning of kids and locked cars, says it can get 120-140.
In addition to the risk of being abducted if they are left alone in a car, on a typical summer day, the temperature inside a car (even with the windows rolled down a little) can quickly rise above 120 to 140 degrees.
•a 6 month old 'baby died when accidentally left in hot car for 3 hrs, died when outside 90-degree temperatures rose to 130 degrees inside closed car, parents thought the other had carried the baby from the car to crib'
If it was easy and common to just leave it in your car and Gandalf goes from a majestic pose to slouching holding a wet noodle, then It seams like it would be simple to prove.
Then also try putting it in a box or storage divise with pressure and heat as well, please.
In addition to the risk of being abducted if they are left alone in a car, on a typical summer day, the temperature inside a car (even with the windows rolled down a little) can quickly rise above 120 to 140 degrees.
•a 6 month old 'baby died when accidentally left in hot car for 3 hrs, died when outside 90-degree temperatures rose to 130 degrees inside closed car, parents thought the other had carried the baby from the car to crib'
Then also try putting it in a box or storage divise with pressure and heat as well, please.
And 140+ will make all plastics and resin flexible, not just finecast. And 140 Degrees doesn't make a puddle.
It is going to be 90 degrees this week. I will leave my painboy in the sun, in my car on a 90 degree day. The way some people speak, it should be a puddle of goo by noon due to GW's massive negligence.
If cars are getting to 140 degrees, forgeworld resin, all the 3rd party resin and GW plastic will all melt and warp under pressure at 140 degrees too.
I am not convinced Finecast has a signifigantly lower melting point than any other plastic/resin product out there.
nkelsch wrote:
Temp inside a car with the windows closed when sitting for 4+ hours on an 100 degree day: 115 degrees.
There are plenty of Dog advocacy groups who have done extensive research into this.
If it has to be 125 degrees outside for the inside of my car to reach 140+... then I am going to say on the rare occasion that you spit in the eye of god that you live in a region that it gets 125 degrees, then don't leave your crap in the car... most people who have a 100 degree day won't have any problems or a trunk full of resin puddles where their Gandalfs used to be.
Pediatrics websites disagree that it will JUST get to 115 degrees, and need to be 100 degree out to reach it. I think peds research on the issue has been a touch longer then dog advocacy groups extensive research.
FITZZ wrote: Hmm, I know that here in the South the interior of a car can easily reach 140+ temps.
If your car is getting hot enough to almost boil water and burn human flesh by sitting in the sun in your region... then maybe you need to consider not leaving your models in the car?
Most resins and plastic models will warp or melt at 140+ degrees (the temp to burn human skin) So how is that a finecast or GW problem?
Remember...
Tap Water: 120 degrees
Human skin burns: 140 degrees
Hairdryer: 150-200 degrees
Boiling water: 160 Degrees
Oven low-end: 250 degrees
Temp inside a car with the windows closed when sitting for 4+ hours on an 100 degree day: 115 degrees.
There are plenty of Dog advocacy groups who have done extensive research into this.
If it has to be 125 degrees outside for the inside of my car to reach 140+... then I am going to say on the rare occasion that you spit in the eye of god that you live in a region that it gets 125 degrees, then don't leave your crap in the car... most people who have a 100 degree day won't have any problems or a trunk full of resin puddles where their Gandalfs used to be.
Simply noting that in the American South, interior car temps get pretty hot, I would actually be interested to see if the temps do get high enough to cause warping, but again it's a side issue, and yes...if your in a region where car interiors are likely to cause problems then you should be extra careful with mini storage.
But again, I think the " Will Finecast burst into flame" is a side issue....the quality of what GW is putting out is the real issue.
And 140+ will make all plastics and resin flexible, not just finecast. And 140 Degrees doesn't make a puddle.
It is going to be 90 degrees this week. I will leave my painboy in the sun, in my car on a 90 degree day. The way some people speak, it should be a puddle of goo by noon due to GW's massive negligence.
Doesnt have to be a puddle, just melt to too flexible. Wont be a puddle, nothing has ever shown that. It will become bendy man probably, which will make it a bit hard to deal with.
What color is your car? And what state do you reside in? try also parking it in shade with heat and direct sunlight with the heat.
nkelsch wrote:
Temp inside a car with the windows closed when sitting for 4+ hours on an 100 degree day: 115 degrees.
There are plenty of Dog advocacy groups who have done extensive research into this.
If it has to be 125 degrees outside for the inside of my car to reach 140+... then I am going to say on the rare occasion that you spit in the eye of god that you live in a region that it gets 125 degrees, then don't leave your crap in the car... most people who have a 100 degree day won't have any problems or a trunk full of resin puddles where their Gandalfs used to be.
Pediatrics websites disagree that it will JUST get to 115 degrees, and need to be 100 degree out to reach it. I think peds research on the issue has been a touch longer then dog advocacy groups extensive research.
I don't believe every car in a 90 degree day is getting to 140 degrees. It doesn't mean it can't happen, but I don't think it is common either. That is crazy hyperbole and not at all scientific. Should people be aware and not leave kids in cars? sure? they shouldn't leave dogs in cars either... but It doesn't mean your gandalf is getting exposed to 140 degree temps every time you park your car in the summer.
Apparently now we have to have independent studies of car internal temps because the only one you will support is the upper range of a website that supports your hate for GW.
Seriously, let's say it was fact and all cars became hot enough to burn human skin on a 90 degree day... what modeling material will suffer no ill effects under that temp? What we are really talking about are lower temps like 110-120... Actual average car temps and tap water and direct light from a bulb. If Finecast melted under those circumstances instead of unreasonable hyperbole situations that 99% of people will never experience then there would be something to complain about.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
carmachu wrote:
What color is your car? And what state do you reside in? try also parking it in shade with heat and direct sunlight with the heat.
Black, no tint, direct sunlight (where I park at work)
I also have a portable temp sensor I use for server rooms... so I will leave that in there to so I can see the temp in the car.
If it melts under 140 degrees, I am not worried. If it melts under 120 or less then I would have an issue. I would be surprised to hear my car gets hotter than 120.
And 140+ will make all plastics and resin flexible, not just finecast. And 140 Degrees doesn't make a puddle.
It is going to be 90 degrees this week. I will leave my painboy in the sun, in my car on a 90 degree day. The way some people speak, it should be a puddle of goo by noon due to GW's massive negligence.
Doesnt have to be a puddle, just melt to too flexible. Wont be a puddle, nothing has ever shown that. It will become bendy man probably, which will make it a bit hard to deal with.
What color is your car? And what state do you reside in? try also parking it in shade with heat and direct sunlight with the heat.
Well, this is the thing...I work on cars for a living, and I promise you, if you open a car, particularly a darker color one, after it's sat in the sun for a few hours, the inside is like a furnace...touching any part of the interior is next to imposiable due to the heat.
So, I'd imagine it would be more than hot enough to cause some problems for resin minis left inside...though I've yet to test this theory.
GW ought to have already done the tests.
I have products that tell me what temperature limits at which to keep them
The resin should have a tolerance beyond reasonable limits, especially as they are not just being made for the British market.
No amount of excuses makes up for the fact that GW have goofed. If they cannot guarantee the product beyond a given temperature they should say so.
I think this temperature debate is a bit futile - as nkelsch has said, any temperature that affects finecast will affect any resin or plastic. So honestly if you live in an area that gets really hot, get a little car thermometer and see how hot it is. If its really getting up well past 120F then youve got 2 options. Dont leave your minis sitting in the car for hours, or....get a cooler lol.
Again, I would stress that while the temp/ warping issue is concerning, it's really a side issue.
GW pedaling miscast/sub standard kits is the main gripe here.
countchocula86 wrote:I think this temperature debate is a bit futile - as nkelsch has said, any temperature that affects finecast will affect any resin or plastic.
This is not true.
Just fill two cups with hot tapwater, put a "finecast" miniature in one, a plastic GW miniature in the other, and see which one gets soft and mushy first.
countchocula86 wrote:I think this temperature debate is a bit futile - as nkelsch has said, any temperature that affects finecast will affect any resin or plastic.
This is not true.
Just fill two cups with hot tapwater, put a "finecast" miniature in one, a plastic GW miniature in the other, and see which one gets soft and mushy first.
If the median temprature gets that hot, I'd imagine floppy model syndrome might pale into insignificance next to 'Christ! My skin! It's bloody spontaneously blistering! Arrrgh!' Nes pas?
countchocula86 wrote:I think this temperature debate is a bit futile - as nkelsch has said, any temperature that affects finecast will affect any resin or plastic.
This is not true.
Just fill two cups with hot tapwater, put a "finecast" miniature in one, a plastic GW miniature in the other, and see which one gets soft and mushy first.
If the median temprature gets that hot, I'd imagine floppy model syndrome might pale into insignificance next to 'Christ! My skin! It's bloody spontaneously blistering! Arrrgh!' Nes pas?
Have you never been to Southern Europe during summer time, or do you just feel like keeping up this futile denial?
When exposed to lesser temperatures (than hot tapwater), but for a longer period of time the same thing will happen and "finecast" melts sooner than plastic.
Actually yes. Got blisters on my shoulders in Cyprus, hence I know how much it hurts.
And does it actually melt? You know, in the way Wax does? Or does it just become pliable? Most resin and plastic will do that, given a high enough temprature, so I fail to see the point?
I don't believe every car in a 90 degree day is getting to 140 degrees. It doesn't mean it can't happen, but I don't think it is common either. That is crazy hyperbole and not at all scientific. Should people be aware and not leave kids in cars? sure? they shouldn't leave dogs in cars either... but It doesn't mean your gandalf is getting exposed to 140 degree temps every time you park your car in the summer.
Much like kids and dogs, it doesnt have to happen all the time, it only has to happen once to have an effect on your models.
Apparently now we have to have independent studies of car internal temps because the only one you will support is the upper range of a website that supports your hate for GW.
And the folks that dont want to believe like yourself want to poo poo that, and only claim its going to go up only 15 degrees, from 100 degree day to only 115.
But I didnt JUST claim the upper range. I gave a wider range.
Seriously, let's say it was fact and all cars became hot enough to burn human skin on a 90 degree day... what modeling material will suffer no ill effects under that temp? What we are really talking about are lower temps like 110-120... Actual average car temps and tap water and direct light from a bulb. If Finecast melted under those circumstances instead of unreasonable hyperbole situations that 99% of people will never experience then there would be something to complain about.
I bet you'll find that folks in TX and SW will be affected more then folks in north.
I keep boxes of models, plastic and metal in the trunk most of the time, including summer, black paint job. No problems as of yet.
You dont know if it will soften under lamps from bulbs(display cases), depending on wattage. Not really worried about meltage, but soften? I bet it can in a variety of those ways.
Black, no tint, direct sunlight (where I park at work)
I also have a portable temp sensor I use for server rooms... so I will leave that in there to so I can see the temp in the car.
If it melts under 140 degrees, I am not worried. If it melts under 120 or less then I would have an issue. I would be surprised to hear my car gets hotter than 120.
You keep saying melted, like its going to turn into a pile of goo. That wont happen. I will however, I hazard, soften, and bend over, and if in a case, might take on foam patterns.
Kilkrazy wrote:I've heard that Finecast resin left in a car in the winter can get so cold it crystallises and shatters if dropped.
Take a good look at this post.....it is a historic post! This is the official beginning of the winter shattering Fincast rumour!.....now, fly my pretty, spread your wings and claim the interwebs as your home!
I heard that this one time there was a ninja shopping in a games store, and someone bought some finecast, and the ninja just flipped out and killed everybody.
Unfortunately, the Thunderfire Cannons I have suffer not only from the above flaws but are also seriously miscast or misaligned somehow, so the holes in the barrel for the recoil compensators don't line up correctly and the compensators cannot be fit onto the barrels. Were they Finecast, I could probably cut new holes myself, but they are not. If the TFC goes to Finecast I'll be buying two.
Ah, bummer man, sorry to hear you got such a crap piece, mine was at least doable with green.
Call me a kiss ass, but those Asian girls are cute, and I for one require at least one picture a day......for medicinal purposes.
+1
For medical and educational purposes only
Considering we have people who spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars have been spent on science rolling of dice... You would think *someone* would be motivated enough to go tot he store, buy a 30$ model and attempt to 'melt' it under some scientific experiments mythbusters style.
I´m seriouslly considering doing this...would be even better if I got a free DCM from dakka if my 30$ mini melted lol.
I'm sure all the "apologists" (for lack of a better term) have heaps of leftover Finecast sprue they could experiment on.
Nope. Statistics tell us that 33% (confidence unknown) of apologists in here dont even own a failcast mini, hehe.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:... and if you get a mote of it in your eye...
I don't get it? Are you saying if I buy Finecast and chip a little bit into my eye, I get to get jiggy with a Snow Queen? I'm already posting an order with GW.
Tap Water: 120 degrees
Human skin burns: 140 degrees
Hairdryer: 150-200 degrees
Boiling water: 160 Degrees
Oven low-end: 250 degrees
Temp inside a car with the windows closed when sitting for 4+ hours on an 100 degree day: 115 degrees.
There are plenty of Dog advocacy groups who have done extensive research into this.
Water boils at 212F or 100C. Your 160 is completely out of whack and makes your entire argument questionable.
If you're going to go all temperature expert on us, make sure you're making correct references. If you're calling 160 nkelsch degrees = 212F, your only reference to a physical property of matter (which varies based on pressure, but not THAT much), then the rest of your assertions make more sense. That explains it! Your 115 degrees actually is equivalent to the temperatures in a car on a hot day, you're just using a different scale! I've received burns from sitting on a hot seatbelt from a car. Dogs and children don't die from short exposures to 115F. But dogs and children do die from short stints in sealed cars on hot days.
Back to Finecast: We had a kid come into the store this weekend with a dark elf repeater crossbow that had warped from sitting in a hot car. Feet were all splayed out. He got hot water from the coffee shop next door, but the feet would not return to the original position.
My big question: We often will drive over an hour with models with stuff in the trunk. Trunk is not air conditioned. At what temperature will models begin to warp under their own weight?
Perhaps Battlefoam could come out with the world's first cooled carry case.
In fact, screw that!
NEW! FROM MYSTERY INDUSTRIES! THE COOL CASE 5000! THE WORLDS ONE AND ONLY COOLED MINATURES CARRY CASE!
Our patented 'colder than a penguins knackers' inserts keep your models nicely chilled, even in the boot of your car, in a Texas Heatwave!
Mystery Industries....What could possibly go wrong?
There, it's my bloody idea, and I'm willing to sell it to Battlefoam for a couple of their mahoosive cases with foam for me Dark Eldar vehicles and other awkwardly shaped models!
And yes I'm serious. My genius mind has just vomited up a concept that would work!
Mr Mystery wrote:Perhaps Battlefoam could come out with the world's first cooled carry case.
In fact, screw that!
NEW! FROM MYSTERY INDUSTRIES! THE COOL CASE 5000! THE WORLDS ONE AND ONLY COOLED MINATURES CARRY CASE!
Our patented 'colder than a penguins knackers' inserts keep your models nicely chilled, even in the boot of your car, in a Texas Heatwave!
Mystery Industries....What could possibly go wrong?
There, it's my bloody idea, and I'm willing to sell it to Battlefoam for a couple of their mahoosive cases with foam for me Dark Eldar vehicles and other awkwardly shaped models!
And yes I'm serious. My genius mind has just vomited up a concept that would work!
Or we could have minis made in a medium that don't melt in the sunlight...
Tap Water: 120 degrees
Human skin burns: 140 degrees
Hairdryer: 150-200 degrees
Boiling water: 160 Degrees
Oven low-end: 250 degrees
Temp inside a car with the windows closed when sitting for 4+ hours on an 100 degree day: 115 degrees.
There are plenty of Dog advocacy groups who have done extensive research into this.
Water boils at 212F or 100C. Your 160 is completely out of whack and makes your entire argument questionable.
If you're going to go all temperature expert on us, make sure you're making correct references. If you're calling 160 nkelsch degrees = 212F, your only reference to a physical property of matter (which varies based on pressure, but not THAT much), then the rest of your assertions make more sense. That explains it! Your 115 degrees actually is equivalent to the temperatures in a car on a hot day, you're just using a different scale! I've received burns from sitting on a hot seatbelt from a car. Dogs and children don't die from short exposures to 115F. But dogs and children do die from short stints in sealed cars on hot days.
Sorry, bad googling... But that shows that it takes even more extreme heat to actually make resin and plastics go all wonky... Nowhere close to what you will get from a hot car on a hot day. Boiling water bends plastic where car heat doesn't, Unless finecast 'melts' at 130 degrees or less then cars are not melting finecast.
I would disagree that dogs and children can't die from short exposure to 115F... Dogs are extremely burdened and get heatstroke easily for any temp over 90 due to the lack of sweat glands.
Like I said... if it happens, then why does no one have evidence of it? Now since finecast supposedly MELTS (not warps... melts into goo) in nothing but sunlight! I wasn't aware finecast was made out of candlewax.
The first report and test to finecasts in cars was done and posted here If i recall it correctly, it was form another warharmmer forum... and yeah finecast melted in the car but their plastics and metals were intact... but yeah its just another irrelevant thing and ultimately a fabricated lie.
I would disagree that dogs and children can't die from short exposure to 115F... Dogs are extremely burdened and get heatstroke easily for any temp over 90 due to the lack of sweat glands.
Look, we agree on something. Even 115 is enough to kill dogs and kids.
Like I said... if it happens, then why does no one have evidence of it? Now since finecast supposedly MELTS (not warps... melts into goo) in nothing but sunlight! I wasn't aware finecast was made out of candlewax.
Must you take everything to the extreme? I dont think the arguement has ever been a pile of goo. Its been it will soften and warp, not turn into a pile of water resin mess.
OK guys, I thinking about testing this. I don't think I can be called an apologist, and I am also consistently on record doubting that finecast will melt in a car any worse then plastic (which I think will exclude me from the hater camp as well, on these one issue anyway).
I get paid on friday, and will get some test models and a recommended thermometer. Any ideas on the latter?
One problem, my bias (real or perceived aside) is that Iowa isn't forecast to get over 90F this month. Someone in Texas or Arizona would be better I think. But in lieu of any other volunteers...
For a test, maybe consider first seeing if the resin can indeed melt at the temperature stated, then have someone from each country provide actual evidence of the average car temperature of their home countries (i.e: photographs from multiple days, preferably with a newspaper of the day in question, and/or video, as photos are easy to doctor).
If the Resin proves to be unable to melt at these temperatures, then, in true Mythbuster fashion, it should be tested to see at just what temp the Resin will melt (by melt, it should change shape without outside influences other than gravity). It should also be tested against GW plastic for the sake of comparison.
And a single length of Finecast Sprue should be good enough. If it's set straight up and bends, it indicates Warp. If it flat out comes back and touches the ground, it's melting.
AgeOfEgos wrote:There's some terrible casts in those photos. Good on Wayland for not expecting their customers to return a product they just purchased---and returning inferior products before selling to their customers.
Just use sprue or already corrupted minis that you are getting replaced anyway. No need to toast one of the few good pieces of finecast that has been released.
I would recommend using an actual miniature rather than pieces of sprues for the test as a miniature is larger and has intricate details. Such a test would be more in line with the purpose, which is to confirm whether heat causes a degradation of quality with a Finecost miniature.
But if you don't use an actual miniature then people will likely call bs on the whole thing.
Anyway, personally, I don't think anyone should be leaving any of their minis in the car for any reason. For one thing, I've read too many stories about people having entire armies stolen because of that, but also because it's such a no-brainer that I'm shocked this discussion went on for over a page. If you leave your plastic/resin models in extreme heat for an extended period of time, they'll warp, you don't NEED to conduct some stupid fething experiment to "test" it because it's already common knowledge that heat warps the stuff, it's how you fix bent parts. I know the point is more about Finecast having a lower "melting point", but seriously, why even try it? Just don't leave your gak out in the car! And if you do you're fething stupid!
I'm not sure what most people here drive, but if your car is big enough I'd recommend sticking them in the backseat instead of the trunk, so they'll at least be in the AC.
* armory brand - for medium quality work.
Actually I would recommend against that, Armory brand primer is possibly the worst paint I've ever used. Every single can I ever purchased was complete garbage. If you're looking for a cheap spray primer I would buy Dupli-Color sandable primer from an auto parts store, it's only about $5-6 and comes out pretty fine. Obviously airbrushing primer is the best method but not everyone has an airbrush set-up (I'm still working on it, need a compressor that isn't REALLY LOUD).
I just have to throw this out there. The part of california i am from hits well over 100 for long stretches in summer. couple of years ago it was 115. does that mean that all the little kids and dogs died and there was a cover up or something to hide this massed death.
sennacherib wrote:I just have to throw this out there. The part of california i am from hits well over 100 for long stretches in summer. couple of years ago it was 115. does that mean that all the little kids and dogs died and there was a cover up or something to hide this massed death.
Depends, how many of the little kids and dogs were locked in a trunk all day?
Kanluwen wrote:Simply being in heated air will not cause a problem.
You preach about common sense, yet you do not apply ANY common sense to your posts.
The complaints are about transporting your army during hot days which is left in the car. ( which is common and long months even here in Canada )
You speak of resin kits been ok in you attic.
Well you see, too bad most of the CONTENTS we carry are not un built resin kits. But are in fact ( very common )
to be Assembled and PAINTED resin. which is the one most susceptible to the heat. Why? because thats when we carry our PAINTED armies
in our PROTECTIVE CASE , which is when the pressure of the foam +the HEAT causes the warps the material.
You are been obtuse on purpose and dodging the situation.
I don't know why you try to reason with that person. It's easier to put that person on Ignore list and never to have to deal with that person's posts again. Many times has that person proved that arguing your point is like bashing your head on a wall.
Alkasyn wrote:I don't know why you try to reason with that person. It's easier to put that person on Ignore list and never to have to deal with that person's posts again. Many times has that person proved that arguing your point is like bashing your head on a wall.
Alkasyn wrote:I don't know why you try to reason with that person. It's easier to put that person on Ignore list and never to have to deal with that person's posts again. Many times has that person proved that arguing your point is like bashing your head on a wall.
Where's the fun in that?
Sometimes the cost of being annoyed outweights the fun. It did for me
I might just try this my FLGS still hasn't gotten there fine cost yet. When they do I will get the cheapest model I don't like and paint it up stick it on my dashboard. If it survives the summer I will buy more if it don't ebay for me or build plastic versions of my missing chars from now on.
Alkasyn wrote:Sometimes the cost of being annoyed outweights the fun. It did for me
Without singling anyone specific out, I find some of the torturous logic used to defend the indefensible - to have gone from interesting to annoying to amusing. If you ignore them you're missing out on some really lulzy explanations on why, say, models that are missing pieces, have chunks of missing detail, and had a price hike to boot are actually totally sweet, using all the psychology and mindset you'd expect of a battered wife.
Putting that aside though, being a full time defender of all things GWS is at best a small facet of any given poster. Just because a person has a pathological need to polish figurative turds doesn't mean they don't have good advice on painting, or modelling, or are otherwise an OK person. So despite the last 2 paragraphs of my reducing a person to a caricature, I will now hypocritically advise you not to do the same.
JustPlainJim wrote:Just a thought: Could we get a sticky where people can show off their Finecast problems?
Like a support group!
Can anyone spot what's wrong with this picture?
Oh, that's fine, just take some superglue and put some in the... uh... huh. Maybe you put the superglue... well, no, that's not right either. Uh, wait I got it.
Games Workshop Uniquecast miniatures!! Every last model is uniquely crafted. One of a kind!
sonofruss wrote:I might just try this my FLGS still hasn't gotten there fine cost yet. When they do I will get the cheapest model I don't like and paint it up stick it on my dashboard. If it survives the summer I will buy more if it don't ebay for me or build plastic versions of my missing chars from now on.
My Painboy is sitting on the dashboard of my car in direct sun as we speak... but I don't think today will be hot enough to do anything.
Here are the 3 experiments I plan on running:
*A model sitting in direct sun inside a car. This will test if the material will naturally 'droop' from heat and gravity. Also, for exposed models in the sun.
*A model smooshed between foam (slight pressure) in a case. I am unsure if models in a trunk/case get 'hotter' than the areas with direct sun. I am also unsure if pressure from foam and the heat will cause bending.
*A model with active pressure applied in the heat of a car. I plan to take a sprue, and pull it in such a way with a rubber band that it is being 'pulled' with heavy pressure in such a way to bend. If it is hot enough inside the car, it should be all bent when I get back.
It may not get hot enough this weekm but I am going to the beach this weekend where my car will sit for 3-5 days. So I think I will just 'set up' the experiment and let it go and see how it ends up after the holiday.
Also, Gandalf is only about 35$, so I might go buy him to use instead of my orks without flaws. I have noticed why Gandalf is a good model... his staff is straight as an arrow and visibly should be easy to tell any drooping or warping.
I will try to take some pictures tonight of the pre-experiment if I can find a Gandalf model after work.
Any other 'scenarios' you guys want tested? I was also thinking of Testing some of the paint stripping techniques as I have a whole lot of simple green. Maybe Gandalf can be our Finecast test dummy...
Why would anyone leave their models in their car in the first place? Not even talking about finecast but plastics too, if it gets hot enough of course it's gonna melt.. same as if you'd leave old records in your truck (if you're old like me and were born long enough ago to know what a record is).
It's just something that shouldn't be done... It's like common sense.
I got a plastic carnifex once and one of the frames was totally melted and warped like it was left in a hot car. GW gave me a new one so I got a lot of free bitz out of it
Yeah... 35 dollars for Gandalf on foot and Gandalf on a horse 2-pack doesn't seem like a lot of money to me in the grand scheme of things and the cost of most model companies now adays.
And he is only 33$... Even better.
Personally, I am actually curious about paint stripping finecast and heat issues and just want to see how far I can push the material so if I get 33$ of enjoyment out of the model then it is worth every penny. And if I am lucky, I might have a neat Gandalf model painted up on my shelf at the end of this.
Yeah... 35 dollars for Gandalf on foot and Gandalf on a horse 2-pack doesn't seem like a lot of money to me in the grand scheme of things and the cost of most model companies now adays.
And he is only 33$... Even better.
Personally, I am actually curious about paint stripping finecast and heat issues and just want to see how far I can push the material so if I get 33$ of enjoyment out of the model then it is worth every penny. And if I am lucky, I might have a neat Gandalf model painted up on my shelf at the end of this.
You and I have totally different ideas of how to enjoy a miniature then. Spend 35, 33 on miniatures just to try to burn them its just something I cannot understand, but hey good that your so detached from your miniatures to this point... have fun and report the thing.
Necros wrote:Why would anyone leave their models in their car in the first place? Not even talking about finecast but plastics too, if it gets hot enough of course it's gonna melt.. same as if you'd leave old records in your truck (if you're old like me and were born long enough ago to know what a record is).
It's just something that shouldn't be done... It's like common sense.
I got a plastic carnifex once and one of the frames was totally melted and warped like it was left in a hot car. GW gave me a new one so I got a lot of free bitz out of it
Well, for some people, they might have other errands to run besides just buying hobby stuff. Or as some people have stated, the store might be quite far and require a long hot drive.
nkelsch wrote:
Here are the 3 experiments I plan on running:
*A model sitting in direct sun inside a car. This will test if the material will naturally 'droop' from heat and gravity. Also, for exposed models in the sun.
*A model smooshed between foam (slight pressure) in a case. I am unsure if models in a trunk/case get 'hotter' than the areas with direct sun. I am also unsure if pressure from foam and the heat will cause bending.
*A model with active pressure applied in the heat of a car. I plan to take a sprue, and pull it in such a way with a rubber band that it is being 'pulled' with heavy pressure in such a way to bend. If it is hot enough inside the car, it should be all bent when I get back.
It may not get hot enough this weekm but I am going to the beach this weekend where my car will sit for 3-5 days. So I think I will just 'set up' the experiment and let it go and see how it ends up after the holiday.
The beach is a great place to do it.
Further, if possible later on, assuming there is some softening, try the same with the heat and car in the shade.
Dr_Chin wrote:So my friend just unboxed his new DE Haemonculus and its missing a finger!
He's obviously the DE Haemonculus from the the Salamander novel that cut off his finger in order to resurrect himself after being executed. You've got a special edition... or just par for the course with Finecast unfortunately.
Necros wrote:Why would anyone leave their models in their car in the first place? Not even talking about finecast but plastics too, if it gets hot enough of course it's gonna melt.. same as if you'd leave old records in your truck (if you're old like me and were born long enough ago to know what a record is).
Because you get in late and forget, and it gets hot the next day? Because your coming from work to game with friends? Because you have stuff to do before gaming, like drop off movies for the wife or other errands?
There are a host of valid reasons to have them in the car before going out.
Yeah... 35 dollars for Gandalf on foot and Gandalf on a horse 2-pack doesn't seem like a lot of money to me in the grand scheme of things and the cost of most model companies now adays.
And he is only 33$... Even better.
Personally, I am actually curious about paint stripping finecast and heat issues and just want to see how far I can push the material so if I get 33$ of enjoyment out of the model then it is worth every penny. And if I am lucky, I might have a neat Gandalf model painted up on my shelf at the end of this.
You and I have totally different ideas of how to enjoy a miniature then. Spend 35, 33 on miniatures just to try to burn them its just something I cannot understand, but hey good that your so detached from your miniatures to this point... have fun and report the thing.
Considering I have 50000-60000 points of GW orks... it is not unheard of that I will probably be buying a lot of this material if they release new models like MANZ or other ork things in this material. I have over a decade of experience with GW's metals and plastics so it might not be a bad idea to get familiar with the product if I plan on using it in the future. I would like to know its strengths and limitations.
I also don't believe gandalf will look like a pile of goo at the end of this... so even if he does warp, I can bend him back to normal and paint him so I will still have Gandalf models... The sprue material will be my first test for paint stripping so if simple green makes the thing dissolve like an alka seltzer tablet then I won't do it on the real model.
I am not smashing an Xbox in a best buy parking lot or anything.
Well, I have to give him props for putting his money where his mouth is. As far as I know he's the only one to do so. I personally do not think the model will 'melt', it will likely deform or warp. My biggest concern is about stripping the model and how the material will react to the common stripping methods used on Dakka. I'm not encouraged the material will stand up to such harsh chemical baths but who knows, it may be more resilient. The only way to know is to test it.
nkelsch could you start a new thread instead of posting that here, just seems it needs it's own.
Rymafyr wrote:Well, I have to give him props for putting his money where his mouth is. As far as I know he's the only one to do so. I personally do not think the model will 'melt', it will likely deform or warp. My biggest concern is about stripping the model and how the material will react to the common stripping methods used on Dakka. I'm not encouraged the material will stand up to such harsh chemical baths but who knows, it may be more resilient. The only way to know is to test it.
nkelsch could you start a new thread instead of posting that here, just seems it needs it's own.
I will make a dakka article and a thread once I get my hands on a Gandalf.
I still can't believe the number of GW apologists still bleating away on this. The items are faulty. If I spent £15-20 on a single model then I wouldn't be impressed to see bits missing. Yes I can greenstuff the holes but why should I? It's supposed to be fine cast.
While I agree that Wayland have maybe used the beat stick a bit too much here and I can see a causal link to the restriction on overseas sales (the mass of pictures was a bit excessive), why do people seem to think the quality here is acceptable? The thread was not about if the model melts in a car or not, it was about whether they should sell models with bits missing or some grubby oiks pubic hair stuck in the packaging.
Oh man. On next payday I'm going to walk into GW store in Helsinki and get some stupid Finecast model, put it together and then take photos of it standing for the next few weeks on my sunny windowsill.
I haven't bought a new GW figure in a couple of decades put this thread got me interested and frustrated to the point that I'm probably going to actually do this.
I guess i've become a bit desensitized but what is the purpose of this thread again after the first page? I mean Its cool Wayland is doing whatever waylands is doing, I dont know how that will impact their sales, can you even get metal models that are now finecast? If not then its gonna suck for people who want that model (They'll prob go "Hey good for wayland" then hit the buy button at another store)
I think GW needs better quality control and you can prob just return the model for a new one, it's not like you've wasted your money. The GW hate threads are getting boring I suppose, perhaps we should spread them out a bit better? Eventually your body becomes numb to pain in the same spot
Sorry for the interruption.. GW haters and apologists can continue berating each other now
Ah Wayland. You are our Friendly Global Gaming Store . I support Wayland for what they are doing. My expectation of a product is fairly proportional to the cost and at the current price tag I expect the product to be damn near perfect (which it is far from being).
All Wayland is doing is saying that they can't carry this line of product because they don't want 50% of their orders returned that they then have to subsequently receive, process, contact GW for replacement, and re-ship to their customers.
That's it.
It's not some philosophical 'GW, thou shalt not pass!' statement. It's simply a distribution company receiving the first wave of product, realizing that a significant chunk of it has sufficient problems that they'd lose in either branding or capital by carrying it, and deciding not to until it gets resolved.
ruminator wrote:I still can't believe the number of GW apologists still bleating away on this. The items are faulty. If I spent £15-20 on a single model then I wouldn't be impressed to see bits missing. Yes I can greenstuff the holes but why should I? It's supposed to be fine cast.
While I agree that Wayland have maybe used the beat stick a bit too much here and I can see a causal link to the restriction on overseas sales (the mass of pictures was a bit excessive), why do people seem to think the quality here is acceptable? The thread was not about if the model melts in a car or not, it was about whether they should sell models with bits missing or some grubby oiks pubic hair stuck in the packaging.
You are very wrong, this has cost us a significant amount of money we are having to cancel and refund over 1000 orders because we have been provided with what we consider product that we are not happy to sell. 1000+ orders where we would have to inform those customers of our decision. We as I have said have an obligation to all of our customers to make sure they are informed. We posted on facbook and our website the 2 places where we control the content of our message and how it is perceived.
It's not some philosophical 'GW, thou shalt not pass!' statement.
Now GW is a Balrog. Those poor Finecast Gandalfs really will get melted!
Edit: Rich sorry that you have been affected like this Is there any chance tha GW will provide compensation or is just going to be a hit in the wallet for you? Sorry if that is an improper question
Yeah... 35 dollars for Gandalf on foot and Gandalf on a horse 2-pack doesn't seem like a lot of money to me in the grand scheme of things and the cost of most model companies now adays.
30-40$ for one, O N E, miniature that in itself is a kind of lottery, think about it for a little while. It´s insane and all our own fault for letting GW "get away" with this.
JustPlainJim wrote:Just a thought: Could we get a sticky where people can show off their Finecast problems?
Like a support group!
Can anyone spot what's wrong with this picture?
Absolutely nothing. It can easily be fixed with greenstuff, not even needing specialized tools like drills and what not.
How much did it cost, 35$? That´s nothing, just peanut money.
Nothing to see, move along.
I've lived in Houston, Texas for 25+ years and left many an army in many a car in many a summer. The only problem I have ever had was the old square Epic stands warping. For disclosure, I have no Finecost, nor am I likely to.
My wife had taken my Warmachine case (which is a double wide GW case) out of the trunk and put it in the garage. Now for those who don't know, we're in the middle of a severe drought here in SE Texas and temps are pushing 100 or more without the index every day. This case had my Cygnar, Legion, and her Retribution in it and was in the garage for a good month since I didn't realize it. NONE of the plastic was warped and this is the PP plastic that is almost resin like.
Pyriel- wrote:Absolutely nothing. It can easily be fixed with greenstuff, not even needing specialized tools like drills and what not.
I wouldn't be able to fix that with greenstuff...
This is the problem
You people want to be part of the hobby and should goddam learn how to stuff green into holes.
After all you want to pay over the odds for a thing with holes in.
Stop bitchin and start stuffing!!
(just in case the internet has interfered with the inference, am only joshing Skyth )
In case anyone cares: it was 30 degrees Celsius here today, so I went to the beach and took an empty "finecast" sprue with me.
It became spagetti soft in about 40 to 50 minutes.
So.. anywhere where its currently above 86 degrees would have all of their finecast turn to spagetti? Come on if we're gonna bash GW at least try to be serious. That's so comically bad
My local store is sometimes ABOVE 86 on a friday night with all the gamers.. You would need to be MUCH higher to melt resin or plastic (Granted im no chem major it takes boiling point to really make my resin get super soft)
Why would anyone leave their models in their car in the first place? Not even talking about finecast but plastics too, if it gets hot enough of course it's gonna melt.. same as if you'd leave old records in your truck (if you're old like me and were born long enough ago to know what a record is).
It's just something that shouldn't be done... It's like common sense.
I got a plastic carnifex once and one of the frames was totally melted and warped like it was left in a hot car. GW gave me a new one so I got a lot of free bitz out of it
That's vinyal. Yeah it's going to melt! I've left plastic and metal in my car with no ill effect plenty of times. Now I don't think I would do it in the middle of summer, but that is what we want to know, at what point is it safe? If its reasonably close to plastic then fine. I just don't want to be surprised when i leave my laptop too close to the minis and come back to wilted marines.
So.. anywhere where its currently above 86 degrees would have all of their finecast turn to spaghetti?
Well we have no Idea how hot it got in the car. Also it appears that GW has been having issues mixing the resin properly, people are noticing different tensile strengths on replacement minis. So maybe he got one of the ones that was already pretty soft to begin with.
ruminator wrote:I still can't believe the number of GW apologists still bleating away on this. The items are faulty. If I spent £15-20 on a single model then I wouldn't be impressed to see bits missing. Yes I can greenstuff the holes but why should I? It's supposed to be fine cast.
While I agree that Wayland have maybe used the beat stick a bit too much here and I can see a causal link to the restriction on overseas sales (the mass of pictures was a bit excessive), why do people seem to think the quality here is acceptable? The thread was not about if the model melts in a car or not, it was about whether they should sell models with bits missing or some grubby oiks pubic hair stuck in the packaging.
The Apoligists, the new disciples for The Word of Kirby. IPSUM IN TABULAS!
Grot 6 wrote:
They're made out of plexible plesin, what exactly would you think would happen?
Anyone who says otherwise is not even being realistic here and is engaging in wishful thinking. Thats not even in the conversation here.
Seriously? You heat something up... and it won't melt? Where does that happen again?
If you don't want to "believe" it? Hey thats fine- you can chalk that up there with the favorable pictures of Fine crap that supposedly exist as well.
I have Resin from dozens of companies made from dozens of types of plastics and resins... "sure it can melt" and "it does melt in my car" are two different things.
We all know putting minis in UNREASONABLE situations will cause them to melt. In the oven with 150 degrees +? yeah, it will melt. Exposed to boiling water? yeah, it will become FLEXIBLE but not melt. Expose to extended heat under a blowdryer or water? You can get some bending. Personally I ran mine under tap water for minutes and it didn't get spaghetti-like at all and was not flexible enough for me to model with, I had to use BOILING water... Just like other resins.
Last time I checked, my car doesn't get to 160 degrees in the sun. The claims of minis melting under REASONABLE situations like a lamp in a mini display case or heat of a car hasn't actually happened, and right now from the material *I* have doesn't appear like it will warp or melt any more or less than any other resin product I have when it comes to car/sun/bulb heat. How come no one complained about metal models chipping and breaking when expanding and contracting in freezing weather? Other materials become damaged when left in extreme tempatures too.
If it was easy and common to just leave it in your car and Gandalf goes from a majestic pose to slouching holding a wet noodle, then It seams like it would be simple to prove.
I have a Painboy with a very thin needle part on his 'urty syringe and a bosspole... I will be glad to leave him in my car all week on my dashboard of my car to see if the heat and gravity melts or warps him. Of course if it doesn't melt, people will say I am doing it wrong and am an apologist.
There is crazy hyperbole going on which is totally unsubstantiated right now which people are re-stating over and over as hard fact. If it was true, it is really easy to prove.
Oh get off of the high horse, no one said anything about puddles or anything of the sort.
GW THEMSELVES said that they can simply heat up and bend back into place pieces on models that are bent, and you can bend them back yourself after running it under hot water...
There is no hyperbole, its a fact- If you heat something up its going to melt. And point of fact- this plastic is going to melt.
Of course it probibly works different over there in never never land, where GW models are made of gold and they flow like milk and honey.
If I was being overly hateful, I could see your rather obtuse response,I am still waiting on some pictures from someone who isn't a paid company shill of one of these finecrap models that is actually decent looking...
No bubbles bent weapons, excesive flash, and looks like they are supposed to...
still waiting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SickSix wrote:Just put an ice pack in your case. problem solved.
And Beer. I heard it from a redshirt that Beer makes the finecrap actually look better, so you won't need to worry about bending anything back.
In case anyone cares: it was 30 degrees Celsius here today, so I went to the beach and took an empty "finecast" sprue with me.
It became spagetti soft in about 40 to 50 minutes.
So.. anywhere where its currently above 86 degrees would have all of their finecast turn to spagetti? Come on if we're gonna bash GW at least try to be serious. That's so comically bad
My local store is sometimes ABOVE 86 on a friday night with all the gamers.. You would need to be MUCH higher to melt resin or plastic (Granted im no chem major it takes boiling point to really make my resin get super soft)
I agree. If this is the case, this is a legitimate complaint... Way more than the bubbles for me.
If this product really does melt to spaghetti in 86 degrees... Then that would be a real problem and make me to avoid the product even if it was super detailed with no flaws... I have never seen a plastic or resin product that got 'spaghetti' soft without boiling. I mean wiggly noodle soft It has been about 86 degrees here today... not as sunny and my painboy is on my dashboard. I would expect his 'urty syringe to be 'impotent' when I go to my car at 5pm.
filbert wrote:So Finecast turns spaghetti soft in 30 degrees C yet according to Mr Mystery, it can survive an oven at 266 degrees F and only be 'slightly pliable'.
filbert wrote:So Finecast turns spaghetti soft in 30 degrees C yet according to Mr Mystery, it can survive an oven at 266 degrees F and only be 'slightly pliable'.
Hmm, who to believe?
The problem with Mr Mystery's thread (seen here) wasn't so much about the results of the experiment, but more about how many people he could flame. No-one from what I read was worried about these miniatures turning liquid in high temperatures. One thing he didn't test, however, was the temperature combined with pressure (hot miniature sandwiched between foam).
A more unbiased real-world experiment is being conducted here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/379257.page involving leaving the minis in a hot car; one on the dashboard and one in the boot mashed inside a carry case. This will have interesting results without the flamebait.
Edit:
Here's a much better and less annoying experiment conducted on finecast using an oven. One interesting point made in the experiment is that finecast appears to be less susceptable to warping at very high temperatures. Perhaps the resin compound is being vulcanised in some form at high temperatures:
http://www.dragonpainting.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=2396&start=10
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Presumably the model would have to go through the temperature range at which it might warp before it got the the vulanisation point?
So it would vulcanise in its bent condition.
No idea, but his ranges include:
30 C - no effect
40 C - slight warping
60 C - major warping
90 C - material softned but due to its 'memory' less weighty pieces reverted back to its original state
120 C - no change
Although I am completely speculating and could be wide of the mark (due the fact I am no scientist or materials specialist) perhaps it did warp, but as the temperature climbed the materials memory reverted it to its original shape and as it hit 120+ vulcanisation occured?
zedmeister wrote:Here's a much better and less annoying experiment conducted on finecast using an oven. One interesting point made in the experiment is that finecast appears to be less susceptable to warping at very high temperatures. Perhaps the resin compound is being vulcanised in some form at high temperatures:
http://www.dragonpainting.net/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=2396&start=10
Wow, that is an interesting experiment for sure...
It sounds like Finecast with low heat and no pressure will not change shape
It sounds like Finecast with low heat and Pressure will change shape
It sounds like there is some memory to the material, Unsure why lower temps warped but higher temps stayed firm?
The question now is will car temps (heat) and foam case (pressure) damage figures or is the heat and pressure from reasonable use not going to be an issue?
All this talk of heat, cars and pressure!
Still waiting for someone to put their army in the car, set it alight, then take the remains to the scrapyard to put in the crusher for the ultimate Finecast test.
All this talk of heat, cars and pressure!
Still waiting for someone to put their army in the car, set it alight, then take the remains to the scrapyard to put in the crusher for the ultimate Finecast test.
I have done this and the models did not hold up well. This is why I will never buy "Finecast" models.
BTW I suggest you do not use you own car as now I have to walk to get gas for the mower.
While it's awesome to get 'concrete' evidence out on this materials resilience, the point of the thread was Waylands decision to return GW Finecast stock based on their observed 50%+ miscast rate.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:All this talk of heat, cars and pressure!
Still waiting for someone to put their army in the car, set it alight, then take the remains to the scrapyard to put in the crusher for the ultimate Finecast test.
Any volunteers?
We should also have someone rub a Finecast model all over their face to prove it doesn't give you herpes.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Presumably the model would have to go through the temperature range at which it might warp before it got the the vulanisation point?
So it would vulcanise in its bent condition.
Resin such as this does not have a vulcanization temp. It's a A/B solution, resin and catalyst.
To be fair, most resins will not survive a very hot car without warping, some resins are designed for high temperatures and can even survive the heat and pressure of the vulcanization process of a spin cast mold when cured. This resin sounds like it has a lower temperature tolerance than most, but you would need to test this by using a toaster oven to see where the warping/meting point is.
Wow. thats all i have to say. I didnt realize that rabies, herpes and a host of other deadly diseases were being spread via the pubic hairs trapped in the finecast blister packs. its true. The zombie appoc. is on its way.
htj wrote:At least we know it's true that Finecast miniatures give you rabies, due to being made out of smashed up orphan kittens.
I hear GW will soon be switching to casting their minis out of Hewlett Packard printer ink to save on material costs.
Actually, I had heard that GW will be releasing something called 'Ultracast' in a couple years - models that are currently being produced in resin will be available in extreme-high quality white metal!
With, of course, only a modest price increase to cover the cost of producing the miniatures. Sounds reasonable.
niceguyteddy wrote:I don't believe anyone should accept significant defects in Finecast. GW will only improve the process if it makes economic sense, in that they are receiving too many returns.
While it's grody and kinda weird, it's not exactly "a defect in Finecast".
Looks more to me like Wayland's implementing their own version of "Quality Control" and deciding anything is a flaw.
I would have to agree with you there. seems a bit over the top to call that a manufacturing defect. I have no love for GW but I do think they will work out most of the kinks. From what I understand they are spin casting resin. This is far from ideal, they would have been better off using Reaction Injection Molding... It would have cost them a bundle to re-tool but the constant returns will cost them more financially as well as in customer approval.
Just my two cents.
Its not hair -.-
It got crushed and the package has cracks.... who is to say the model inside is not damaged.
Besides the package being defect is reason enough for wayland to return it... if they send it out like this they will be the ones haveing to compinsate if the customers want a refund and their image will be damaged.
I think it is fair to expect a good condition product and not some second choice damged goods for the kind of money GW charges for these models.
I predicted it to be like this...when the resin change was announced... 50% returns. Its just like FW. Pure luck to get a good product.
Most people wont even return their stuff out of inconviniece. GW is betting on this fact.
A...hole IMO
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have seen worse models on Youtube and have heard people although getting refunds (new models) still have missing parts in the refunded model.
You might think the person takeing care of it could have checked before sending it out?!!
Frankly GW doesn´t care about these "MINIOR" issues
its youre problem anyways -.-
Haveing dealt with FW i can only say do NOT buy resin
its not worth the trouble nore the money.
And the higher detail is just a marketting lie. The bubbels are not.
Yeah, can't recommend that enough. Don't buy closed boxes, find what you want in metal or just hold off on purchases for a while if there's something you really want (like the new wracks). If this stuff hurts sales GW will have to do something about it, you can't expect to keep selling crap product and just deal with the constant returns and replacement boxes.
That guy, DHan997325 also has a wracks review, and the very first model he pulled out of the box had the same problem that has been plaguing my incubi: the spikes on his armor aren't fully cast, you can see holes on the plates where they're supposed to be.
I was hoping a newer kit, especially one designed to be Finecast, would have been in better shape, but apparently not.
I know I've been bitching about that a lot, but god damn it I hate that! The DE models have all these cool little details, like the spikes on the armor, or the trophies and bits like that, and Finecast just ruins all of them. WTF...
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Presumably the model would have to go through the temperature range at which it might warp before it got the the vulanisation point?
So it would vulcanise in its bent condition.
No idea, but his ranges include:
30 C - no effect
40 C - slight warping
60 C - major warping
90 C - material softned but due to its 'memory' less weighty pieces reverted back to its original state
120 C - no change
Although I am completely speculating and could be wide of the mark (due the fact I am no scientist or materials specialist) perhaps it did warp, but as the temperature climbed the materials memory reverted it to its original shape and as it hit 120+ vulcanisation occured?
That would be a solid guess, as far as I'm concerned. Of course, since vulcanized resin is theoretically more sturdy, this begs the question of whether we should bake ALL of our finecast just to ensure it doesn't crap out on us.
I was hoping a newer kit, especially one designed to be Finecast, would have been in better shape, but apparently not.
I am wondering if the problem is indeed with the resin batches which has caused damage to the moulds.
Subsequent casts are then faulty.
The concern is with GW claiming there is no release agent and models can be painted without a primer.
The resin may have stuck to the mould, and/or may not have cured sufficiently before the cast is removed, hence the yellow rubber on sime models.
I can understand small problems being missed by quality control but yellow rubber stucj to models should have been picked up, and alerted someone to check the moulds are okay.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Now you are playing semantics Kanners
Put it another way
"I left Shadowfax on the window sill and now he is Shadow f*xd!"
No, I'm really not.
The person who wrote that then retracted their statement, saying that there had been the flaw in question to begin with.
As in the case was really simply "I left Shadow f*xd on the window sill, and now he is still Shadow f*xd!".
Putting it simply: leaving a turd in the sun still leaves you with a turd afterwards.
And as a sidenote:
It's not "playing with semantics" to say that warping does not equal melting. The two are not the same, by any stretch of the imagination.
To use an example:
You don't say that polystyrene cement "warps" the plastic together. It "melts" the plastic together.
You seein' the logic I'm laying down here Chibi?
Firstly I'm the person who posted the original article. I took it down because fanboi's were making some quite serious threats and I didn't need the hassle. I never said the miniature melted into a puddle of goo like people seem to be claiming. I stand by the fact that it happened and GW staff have seen the evidence and believe it happened so I'm fine with what I posted.
I will support Kanulwen on the so called sematic argument however, melting and warping are two different things. One implies the substance because malleable yet retains its form, that would be warping. The other says the substance loses its integrity and form and thus any detail.
The blades on my Gyrocopter have warped and become malleable in the same room out of the sunlight, but nowhere near as bad as my Gandalf, there has been drooping for sure, I'm not too sure how this would affect paint on the mini because its not painted. I'd again like to point out that I was initially supportive of the GW's move to resin:
that was written before my Gandalf had a severe case of the flopsies. But their implementation has be far from good enough. I'd still advise people to steer clear until the GW can get their quality control right, and I've started to see signs of this recently in some of the stores I've visited with less noticeable miscasts and malfunctions. I've had people tell me that the GW has also re-cut some of the moulds to get rid of the air bubbles that have plauged some miniatures and I've even been told by some they've slightly changed the mix of the resin they're using, but I'm not able to verify any of it and neither are they. Cheers.
I wish GW would just make an announcement about it. There have been a surprisingly large number of miscast items, heat-warping notwithstanding, but they've not even commented. If a major third party like Wayland are taking steps to cease selling the product, then it really isn't just a vocal minority making a fuss. If GW would just openly say 'we're aware that there have been problems, and we're taking steps to fix them' the confidence boost in them would go through the roof. As it is, it feels like they are sticking their fingers in their ears and hoping it all goes away.
Hi SirAngry
I didn't make my comment simply to criticise Kanners, but because that discussion was sidetracking the real problem. As I said whether it melted or simply flopped doesn't matter much if the model is knackered.
Will agree that the melting into a pile of goo is overstating the case, however.
I don't think anyone ever made that claim at any point in this thread, except by apologists using hyperbole to shore up their failing argument. Of course, then they turn around and don't purchase any of the models themselves.
Do Not Feed The Troll 
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