Its a lot easier using digital media to utilize that feedback process. GW very much still utilizes traditional methods, with the digitization process only being a very small component of it all. By the time GW previews a mini its too late to change it, they've already invested tens of thousand to hundreds of thousands of dollars into the product. Defiance is showing us previews of a much earlier stage, it only costs them the 10 bucks an hour or whatever it is they are paying their sculptor.
jake wrote:I don't see any reason why anyone should be embarrassed by these models.
Tim possibly should. While they're definitely not terrible, they have a distinct "like the concept art, but worse" vibe to them.
I have to disagree. I'm looking at the concept art and looking at the aliens, and they look pretty spot on. I honestly can't see what there is to complain about.
jake wrote:I have to disagree. I'm looking at the concept art and looking at the aliens, and they look pretty spot on. I honestly can't see what there is to complain about.
Here's what I wrote on the Defiance forums:
"Ah, but Tim's taken some rather detrimental liberties with Diego's concepts. He's shrunk the legs and cramped them up to fit them on the base, losing the dynamism and making it look unable to support its weight let alone dash across the board. Conversely, he's over-enlarged the arms, omitted the subtle predatory curve to the forelimbs and positioned them waving vaguely in the air, making them look heavy and lethargic. The body is overcomplicated with spurs and rounded cancerous nodules rather than the restrained ridges and grooves of the art and there's now an ugly unprotected gap between torso and abdomen. Limb position is easily altered; everything else is more problematic."
jake wrote:I have to disagree. I'm looking at the concept art and looking at the aliens, and they look pretty spot on. I honestly can't see what there is to complain about.
Here's what I wrote on the Defiance forums:
"Ah, but Tim's taken some rather detrimental liberties with Diego's concepts. He's shrunk the legs and cramped them up to fit them on the base, losing the dynamism and making it look unable to support its weight let alone dash across the board. Conversely, he's over-enlarged the arms, omitted the subtle predatory curve to the forelimbs and positioned them waving vaguely in the air, making them look heavy and lethargic. The body is overcomplicated with spurs and rounded cancerous nodules rather than the restrained ridges and grooves of the art and there's now an ugly unprotected gap between torso and abdomen. Limb position is easily altered; everything else is more problematic."
Hmm... okay. On one hand you are totally right. The model just isn't an exact reproduction of the concept art, and I do agree that the concept art is more attractive. On the other hand, while the differences you point out do exist, I feel like these are pretty minor concerns. The model is still (in my opinion) a very good re-creation of the concept art. I feel like you're nit picking, but maybe we just disagree. In any case, I don't think the sculptor has anything to be ashamed of, as was suggested. Even if the model isn't quite as nice (or in your opinion not nearly as nice0 as the very nice concept art, it's still a well done model.
The arguments regarding concept art vs execution are only half usefull. Unless you're doing a model reflecting an already produced IP, concept art really only exists as a guide to the sculptor. It's not a rigid predertermined blueprint. This is especially true if the concept art was oursourced and the sculpting is done in-house.
However, as seen here, releasing concept art can create disapointment in some fans if the product fails to capture aspects of the art that a given fan really liked.
In the end, I don't see the differences as flaws persay, just diversions from the concept that some will dislike and others won't care about.
The helmet for the USMC....well......I think its a 3D print. Looks kinda blocky?
Happy Boxing Day! A quick post to show off the USMC Full Enviro Helmet head. You'll get 2 of these per frame - so that you can outfit the full 24 troops this way if you choose. There are 4 other head options on each frame as well - to give you a total of 72 total heads/box.
Head for Panzergrenadier, I have no strong feelings one way or the other!
We're gearing up for the New Year here at DFG - so thought we'd show off a piece from an upcoming set - German Panzergrenadiers! The German PZG wear a full protective helmet in battle, but on patrol and in other less intense situations the men and women of the Bundeswehr have a field cap like this. The German PZG frame will let you outfit ALL your troops in helmets - or ALL in caps - or in a mix of bare heads, helmets, and caps.
That looks like a very convincing Femal head.....aside from Infinity, and bearing in mind it's plastic, that's one of the best female heads I've seen!!
Hopefully we get just as good a female body to go with it, in fact, because the head is so good, you could probably get away with having the body armour the same as a male, maybe slightly smaller.....nice job.
That head is quite nice. I'm still iffy on the helmet. I can't decide if I like it or not. I think I really need to see a good sized pic of a well painted marine before I decide. I want to like these models, but the small pictures and poor paint jobs are keeping me on the fence.
What do you think of these compared to the Mantic Corporation Troopers that have been previewed?
I think they look well done, although I'm not a fan of the shoulder and helmet designs. They look well sculpted, but they don't match my tastes. That said, I'd like to see more photos and maybe get my hands on some models before I decide for sure. So often something that I don't quite care for at first will change my mind just by being a quality product. I tend to warm up to well made stuff.
What do you think of these compared to the Mantic Corporation Troopers that have been previewed?
I think they look well done, although I'm not a fan of the shoulder and helmet designs. They look well sculpted, but they don't match my tastes. That said, I'd like to see more photos and maybe get my hands on some models before I decide for sure. So often something that I don't quite care for at first will change my mind just by being a quality product. I tend to warm up to well made stuff.
Thanks Jake! Hey - just wanted to say I've been reading your strip - awesome stuff!
What do you think of these compared to the Mantic Corporation Troopers that have been previewed?
I think they look well done, although I'm not a fan of the shoulder and helmet designs. They look well sculpted, but they don't match my tastes. That said, I'd like to see more photos and maybe get my hands on some models before I decide for sure. So often something that I don't quite care for at first will change my mind just by being a quality product. I tend to warm up to well made stuff.
Thanks Jake! Hey - just wanted to say I've been reading your strip - awesome stuff!
Tony
Oh, thanks!
Since i have your attention, is there any way we could see some better photos of the Marines. Maybe they're out there and I'm just missing them, but the photos I've seen are pretty small. This is a range I really want to like, and I'm eager for more details.
Delephont wrote:Hopefully we get just as good a female body to go with it, in fact, because the head is so good, you could probably get away with having the body armour the same as a male, maybe slightly smaller.....nice job.
That's the plan. Each sprue will have a pair of bodies, a pair of male heads, a pair of female, a pair of helmets, etc. Here's the male head:
The base Panzergrenadier set will not include female-specific bodies, but that's only because the PZGs are so heavily armored you can't really tell who's what under the armor. I'm thinking, though, that judicious use of a file, hobby knife, and green stuff can easily resize the bodies.
As far as I know, by the way, the mold-making is complete on the Marines, and Germans and bugs are in tooling so are on schedule for release. Haven't seen a shot of the Marine sprue yet, but I do have a complete list of the contents:
Two torsos
Three legs
Six heads -- two open helmet, two face mask, one in cap, on bare
Three small hip packs
Three large hip packs
One backpack
Four left arms
Five right arms (weapons_
-1 SAW
-1 Rifle w/ underslung grenade launcher
-1 carbine
-2 standard rifles
The backpack, as I understand it, has a small antenna on it making it useful both as a general pack and for those who want a dedicated radioman.
For the Germans, they're going to be experimenting with two-part rifles -- since the basic German rifle is modular, the piece is divided into the front (standard, underslung grenade launcher, SAW) and the rear grip and stock., letting you attach whichever piece you wish. Also, the rifle has a sight molded onto it. You can see pictures of the weapon over at the Defiance Games sight.
As of this moment, the bugs and Germans aren't up for pre-order yet, although the marines are, and will be released on 16th January, hopefully earlier. The Germans and Bugs are currently in tooling, so shouldn't be too much longer, I won't give an estimate because I will only get it wrong!
I am looking forward to those Germans! And if they get hardsuits as well I will be giddy like a school girl. Cannot wait to see more WIP shots of them. Get to it already and post some.
Imperial Guard here I come.... though I have to say, looking at it more makes me wonder about the heads... it doesn't look like the same type of helmet and some of the detail looks really soft...
Yeah, the knee guards and the fingers on the left hand are poorly defined.
The other problem I have with it is that Tim's changed the concept art for the worse again. The straps on the thighs holding the plates in place were far more interesting than a patch of raised bumps, and the front of the groin plate needs to be way more subdued.
Very far away from the concept art and what i was expecting. 50+ of these are now off of my to order list, unless they change back to be more in line with the concept art, which had the plates around the thigh/groin area more sleek.
Yeah, let's all run around with our hair on fire over an obvious test piece. They're not in production yet so please take a breath and relax until we see an actual production version.
agnosto wrote:Yeah, let's all run around with our hair on fire over an obvious test piece. They're not in production yet so please take a breath and relax until we see an actual production version.
Thats what I'm trying to say. They should show more physical product or masters of product. The 3D renders that some manufacturers are using will not generate the appeal or true look of a physical model, and are impractical in attempting to do that.
agnosto wrote:Yeah, let's all run around with our hair on fire over an obvious test piece. They're not in production yet so please take a breath and relax until we see an actual production version.
Thats what I'm trying to say. They should show more physical product or masters of product. The 3D renders that some manufacturers are using will not generate the appeal or true look of a physical model, and are impractical in attempting to do that.
That shot is obviously of a 3d printed product, look at the lack of detail in the fingers and overall lack of sharpness. It's fine if you take it for what it is, an early proto-type and not the finished product. Think of it in videogame terms, it's an alpha release. We'll see but I quite like the marines and wouldn't expect the germans to be any less detailed so all the "well, I won't buy it now" comments are a bit premature.
Especially considering the sculpt isn't too bad. It's not as good as the concept art, but I think it looks completely serviceable. The Marines looked a little better since the initial renders too, so I'd hold out a little bit here.
I the Defiance staff about this and, yes, that's a WIP of the sculpt; they are currently fiddling with some of the trickier details (like the gorget, which is hard to do with plastic manufacturing -- you can't do the undercuts it'd need when tooling a sprue); there is apparently some discussion about making the gorget a separate piece. Other little bits, like the thigh straps, were left off as being too fiddly, though they may get put back on; it's a question of what level of detail the mold maker is capable of. The LOD should be quite high -- Tony Reidy mentioned they've been upgrading their equipment to handle it.
The assorted pouches and the backpack are separate pieces, though I'll see if I can get them to post a render in a different pose and angle; apparently, the program Tim uses has a built-in "camera" complete with light-sourcing that can obscure some of the detail.
They're following their WGF roots and continuing to be incapable of sharp details. It's as if the entire miniature had well-defined details... and then was sent through a tumbler. The left arm, the right knee, the pants' texture, and the face are especially flattened in details.
The joint between the right arm and the shoulder is horrible. The arm is clearly a rounded surface whereas the the body is a flat surface. The whole joint looks less like the arm is coming out of the body and more like the arm is superfluously attached to the body.
The head lenses stick out further than, or just as far as the helmet.
You guys act like you've never seen a WIP sculpt before. Look how Defiance went back and retooled the bug concept based on feedback.
I was originally underwhelmed by the Marines when they first showed some of the rough stuff, but they've really tightened up their designs, and come out with some stuff I want to buy. 10 years ago we were mucking around with 1-piece metal Guardsmen that were close on 30 bucks for 10. GW didn't/doesn't really release rough cuts like this, and take feedback. And as the C:AW rules aren't out yet, and with the simple fact that everyone (myself included) likes a good, inexpensive proxy for whatever they're running, if they can get it, I'd hazard a guess that the naysayers are mostly Guard players (like me) who think their stand-ins and "OMG, dude, plastic Storm Troopers!" are going down the tubes faster than fast things go down tubes.
IMHO, Defiance has worked a LOT on getting things right, and making something that will hit a lot of tabletops, whether its for their gaming system or any other.
For those that remember Full Thrust from GZG, they came in, said "here's some models, use 'em if you like, if not, make your own, use Star Trek Micro Machines, old toys, whatever, because we have this simple rule set that costs less than dinner for 2 at Arby's, and it lets you use ANYTHING you want to play it, in fact, we ENCOURAGE it."
That was really novel, especially for the time. I feel the same way about what Defiance is doing. They're saying, "Hey, we made some cool stuff. Pick it up and throw it into whatever you're running. Oh, BTW. We're doing this rules set too. If you like it, sweet. If not, hey, at least you got the models."
Using US-based tooling is a great step forward. There's much more accountability. If they know the product won't move because the knuckle joints on the thumb is blobby, or that the groin guard is... not as tantalizing as it should be, they have much more control to address the issue.
Be patient guys. I think this is one iron in the fire that may take a bit, but will be worth it in the end.
Xeno wrote:I the Defiance staff about this and, yes, that's a WIP of the sculpt; they are currently fiddling with some of the trickier details (like the gorget, which is hard to do with plastic manufacturing -- you can't do the undercuts it'd need when tooling a sprue); there is apparently some discussion about making the gorget a separate piece. Other little bits, like the thigh straps, were left off as being too fiddly, though they may get put back on; it's a question of what level of detail the mold maker is capable of. The LOD should be quite high -- Tony Reidy mentioned they've been upgrading their equipment to handle it.
The assorted pouches and the backpack are separate pieces, though I'll see if I can get them to post a render in a different pose and angle; apparently, the program Tim uses has a built-in "camera" complete with light-sourcing that can obscure some of the detail.
If you could deliver one piece of feedback to Tony, I would say: Work on the head, it does not look true to the concept art at all and needs the most work IMO. Also, I dont know what mold manufacturing process is being used, but if I was to suggest one I would say go for the tried and true three up method rather than direct to CAM, it allows for the most detail to be captured from a large physical model and transferred to a production mold (as I understand it).
I'm going to be buying quite a bit of all 3 ranges, I think they're great and will let me play that starship troopers scenario I've always dreamed about The marines and the german prototype already make plastic cadians look bland by comparison.
Absolutionis wrote:They're following their WGF roots and continuing to be incapable of sharp details. It's as if the entire miniature had well-defined details... and then was sent through a tumbler. The left arm, the right knee, the pants' texture, and the face are especially flattened in details.
I could not agree more. Another failure by an upstart company.
kustom wrote:You guys act like you've never seen a WIP sculpt before.
Oh, boo hoo. We're calling a spade a spade. If the finished product is better, good, but there's no point in automatically assuming it will. Who knows, maybe if we say nothing, they'll think this kind of a thing is good enough for today's market, which it obviously isn't. Improvement emerges the best out of necessity, not a bunch of coddling sycophants excusing every single flaw.
Absolutionis wrote:They're following their WGF roots and continuing to be incapable of sharp details. It's as if the entire miniature had well-defined details... and then was sent through a tumbler. The left arm, the right knee, the pants' texture, and the face are especially flattened in details.
I could not agree more. Another failure by an upstart company.
You haven't even seen the models yet! A WIP is in order to show that it is, surprisingly a work in progress, and isn't done
kustom wrote:You guys act like you've never seen a WIP sculpt before.
Oh, boo hoo. We're calling a spade a spade. If the finished product is better, good, but there's no point in automatically assuming it will. Who knows, maybe if we say nothing, they'll think this kind of a thing is good enough for today's market, which it obviously isn't. Improvement emerges the best out of necessity, not a bunch of coddling sycophants excusing every single flaw.
A person who acts obsequiously toward someone in order to gain advantage; a servile flatterer.
I think you may be using words now without knowing what they actually mean. He isn't 'excusing every flaw', the whole point of showing s WIP is so that these flaws come to light, so they can be altered. The nature of injection plastic moulding is that undercuts and every have to be taken into account.
winnertakesall wrote:
I think you may be using words now without knowing what they actually mean. He isn't 'excusing every flaw', the whole point of showing s WIP is so that these flaws come to light, so they can be altered. The nature of injection plastic moulding is that undercuts and every have to be taken into account.
^^ THIS ^^
Not only undercuts but draft angles from the mold pull direction. Making a CAD model is simple enough, but when you move into the realm of plastic injection molding there are MANY issues that crop up.
Their designer is obviously using Zbrush and trying to model on a Z axis in order to deal with the undercuts and mold draft issues. You can get away with sharper details and undercuts when making a multi-part spring loaded mold but the cost of such mold design becomes VERY prohibitive.
I salute them and back them 100% for keeping their manufacturing here in the USA.
They could actually get away with way way way more details on the minis if they broke it down into more and more parts, but you know, the trade off in plastic kits is ease of construction vs. detail. You guys wouldnt be complaining about the details if they did tat, instead you would be complaining that its 100+ pieces per individual soldier...
They could actually get away with way way way more details on the minis if they broke it down into more and more parts, but you know, the trade off in plastic kits is ease of construction vs. detail. You guys wouldnt be complaining about the details if they did tat, instead you would be complaining that its 100+ pieces per individual soldier...
What a load of rot. You don't need more pieces per soldier to have a consistent aesthetic. None of the problem areas are in places where a lack of undercuts would prevent them being fixed.
Am I one of the few people who really don't see what the problem is? I think the models look great as is and will look even better when finished. What am I missing here?
I would like to state for the record, I am being sarcastic. I wish their was a sarcastic indicator, like italics is emphasis and bold is stress, quotation marks are direct quotes, I'd like ^I bet you caught a fish that big^ or /I'm sure the stripper was coming on to you/ As a society, we need to work this out.
Like Absolutionis, I concede that the apparent lack of definitiion at the top of the kneepads looks to have just been a problem of lighting.
fullheadofhair wrote:Am I one of the few people who really don't see what the problem is? I think the models look great as is and will look even better when finished. What am I missing here?
The problem is that instead of one consistent style of armour like the concept art, it's got a hodgepodge of different looks. I want the shins, the thighs, the arms and the torso to all have the same sort of armour: armour plates secured by straps over fatigues. Instead we've got plates with holes in them on the shins, "cod-piece-plus-thigh-highs-over-fishnets" for the thighs, plates with edging on them on the hips, apparently one piece vambraces encircling the entire lower arm, and so on.
fullheadofhair wrote:Am I one of the few people who really don't see what the problem is? I think the models look great as is and will look even better when finished. What am I missing here?
It doesn't look exactly like the concept art and the details are a little soft. That new shot of the shins is rather nice though. People also want GW quality, which is frankly really hard to get.
I feel like it's still an expectation some people have, and while it might not be explicitly stated it still colors our views of any plastic models, since that's what we've got to compare to. Could've worded it better, my bad
The game does apparently. The powers of earth wage war in space across the colonies (as opposed to at home) for control of resources and stuff i think. Plus there are random alien bugs popping up, that probably complicate things.
I like the German better than the marines. Wish they would have made these first! I think they are gonna sell better. His gun is very cool and I wonder if it's molded as part of the arm or separate? Can't wait to see more grenadier troopers!
They could actually get away with way way way more details on the minis if they broke it down into more and more parts, but you know, the trade off in plastic kits is ease of construction vs. detail. You guys wouldnt be complaining about the details if they did tat, instead you would be complaining that its 100+ pieces per individual soldier...
What a load of rot. You don't need more pieces per soldier to have a consistent aesthetic. None of the problem areas are in places where a lack of undercuts would prevent them being fixed.
AlexHolker, if would enlighten us to how you know so much about how their plastic injection moulds work, that would be great.
The gun is actually two-piece: the grip and stock is molded onto the hand while the front section is modular. There will not, unfortunately, be any loose rifles on the sprue, but that's because the sprues are small and goal is to pack as much stuff as possible on them (same as the Marines). However, this could, and should, be an option for the heavy weapon sets.
The armor around the thighs is actually being altered: they're going to go back to the straps in lieu of the mesh (this is straight from Tony, actually), plus the helmet is gong to get worked on, including beefing up the gorget. They'll also be adding separate pieces of armor to bulk up the shoulders. This is all in addition to the separate backpack and pouches: combined, these guys are going to look like hulking, intimidating human-size brutes!
Defiance actually does listen, believe it or not. I know because I bitch at them constantly about this and that and everything (I'm the contrary playtester ). It is important to remember that these are WIP renders being shown specifically to elicit feedback.
The setting is, by default, human-vs-human. It is meant to invoke the latter-day Age of Imperialism -- the Victorian, pre-WW1 era, where the great powers warred for colonial riches. This doesn't mean there are going to be kings and queens or fancy liveried armies, of course, just the general feel; the aesthetics will be gritty, hard sci-fi. Most of the conflicts will be Great Power vs Great Power (where the Great Powers are, among others, the US, Germany, France, China, and the British Commonwealth). Aliens will appear as mercenaries, native insurgents, and dangerous threats (in the case of the Bugs), none of whom have native technology even close to the Great Powers (though arms manufacturers will happily sell them high tech guns and ammo). However, this will not remain the status quo.
I really like that they're listening to what people have to say about their sculpts ahead of time. It would be nicer if that was a little more transparent and they said that from the start, but if they're getting feedback on their models and taking it to heart it's a good sign.
I posted the string of images above for some context, to show the comparison between the originals and the WIP. I'm not quite seeing why there's so much complaining as to the current state of the WIP matches the concept quite well, save in a few details and in the Heroic proportions of the mini. With tweaks the finished product should look very close to the concept, if not an exact match.
dsteingass wrote:Well, who wants that giant codpiece in the concept art? lol You could not walk in that without great pain!
My Codpiece is the coolest!
Anyways, I'm waiting on the chinese concept art before I decide. I'm hoping that the models and their rules reflect that they're a serious power with and not just low tech military who uses human wave tactics Oh..and if the rules are gak or not. I
I am still happy with these. I look forward to them coming out with backpacks for BOTH models on the sprue. Not just one pack for two guys. They will always be fighting each other if there is only one pack for all their gear. Thats just bad form people. The marines must be under funded I guess.
Blackhoof wrote:The game does apparently. The powers of earth wage war in space across the colonies (as opposed to at home) for control of resources and stuff i think. Plus there are random alien bugs popping up, that probably complicate things.
winnertakesall wrote:AlexHolker, if would enlighten us to how you know so much about how their plastic injection moulds work, that would be great.
They're bog-standard two-part steel injection moulds. Now, some of the problem areas are due to a combination of mould limitations and Tim's laziness and complete lack of design sense – the omission of the armour collar and subsequent lowering of the helmet rear, for example, or the substitution of the groin armour with an armoured diaper (I'd much rather see it as an overhang attaching to the chest with a straight join so it can be cut off and repositioned to clear the leg when the torso is turned) – but most are in areas with detail, just the wrong detail – such as the mysterious shrinking thigh-plate that is rightly the subject of so much scorn.
Brother SRM wrote:I really like that they're listening to what people have to say about their sculpts ahead of time. It would be nicer if that was a little more transparent and they said that from the start, but if they're getting feedback on their models and taking it to heart it's a good sign.
I doubt it was intentional – they appear to have simply 'finished' the sculpts a few weeks before a tooling slot became available and decided to post previews now before metaphorically putting them in a drawer and forgetting about them – but hopefully, for us and them both, they'll learn from this and stop blaming all their previous woes on the Chinese. Hell, they currently don't even have pictures of the Marine sprues in their online store. (On a semi-related note, I only just got why people were referring to them as Colonial Marines. Yes, I'm that slow. =P The gonzo armour makes a lot more sense now.)
dsteingass wrote:Well, who wants that giant codpiece in the concept art? lol!
Huh? The groin armour is just as large in the sculpt and bulkier to boot.
Xeno wrote:I posted the string of images above for some context, to show the comparison between the originals and the WIP. I'm not quite seeing why there's so much complaining as to the current state of the WIP matches the concept quite well, save in a few details and in the Heroic proportions of the mini. With tweaks the finished product should look very close to the concept, if not an exact match.
Yes and no. Although there is certainly a correspondence between features on the concept and features on the sculpt, the overall effect is of a mish-mash of conflicting scales and styles. The legs emphasise the curves and the little shin dimples, making them look like anime riot gear, particularly with the shrinkage of the thigh armour away from the front of the thigh. The tassets are no longer integrated with the rest of the armour and instead just hang there, making them look medieval or like Space Marine Terminator armour. I don't know *what* is going on with the groin. Can't see the torso but the poor fit at elbow and neck makes it look like an Action-Man figure. The vambraces are flatter than the legs and look high-tech and reminiscent of Halo's Spartan armour. With the lowered helmet rear, the googly-eyes and the mouthpiece now sticking straight out, the head looks like a cheapest-of-the-cheap Darth Vader-knockoff rubber Halloween mask sucking a dummy. Edit: Oh, and the G36-derived rifle bewilderingly has an M204 slapped on it. Complete dog's breakfast.
ShatteredBlade wrote:Anyways, I'm waiting on the chinese concept art before I decide. I'm hoping that the models and their rules reflect that they're a serious power with and not just low tech military who uses human wave tactics Oh..and if the rules are gak or not. I
IIRC the Chinese and their client states will be mostly low-tech with a smattering of high-tech units. Probably not human-wave though as that should be the bugs' role.
Its the short sleeve shirt that bothers me for some reason. I guess I could always paint over it like it isn't. To be at all fair, it is a good sculpt, that detail just bothers me. If I've got to see a detail that bothers me for a couple of hours every time I play with that army, well... eh. I do like it better than I like any IG range from GW (Except Death Korps).
I've been trying to figure out since I first saw them if it's a short sleeve T shirt or if it's a jacket with the sleeves rolled up. I've also been trying to figure out if it is a T shirt, would it be worth the effort to try and GS a cuff on the end to make it look like a rolled sleeve.
Since when does wargaming have to be 100% historically accurate like a scale model? This is Sci-Fi for feth's sake! There is no correct way to hold that weapon because it DOESN'T EXIST!
I'd unsubscribe from this thread, but I keep hoping for a release announcement on the female heads.
The marine gun is absurd. Recoild would be nightmarish (have fun dropping it) and it doesn't have any decent way to fire from prone or crouched/sitting, which is how you usually stabilize an MG. The grip is just horrible in general and would be a PITA the try to lug that thing without just dragging it.
Also, the helmet is very awkward.
That being said, I like the body and legs. Arms could also probably be saved by clipping the weapon and repositioning the grips. The underslung attachment is dumb on a support weapon, though.
I think that it is funny how people argue over how guns are held/designed for every new model that comes out from a company, but no one questions how illogical GW weapons are. No one complains about how they are at least 3x the size they should be and that the caliber of some GW personal firearms are larger than modern day tanks and AFV.
I say just go with the flow. I like most of the human soldiers I am seeing today. I am looking forward to seeing them across a table soon. And then watching them obliterate my armies with reckless abandon.
I agree with sheperd23's comments. It seems to be the case nowadays that when any new range comes to light they are immediately shot to pieces for reasons like detail(how detailed do rank and file troops like these need to be?). C'mon, I think its time we gave companies offering us something new more support and less negative nonsense.
I'm sure it would be pretty easy to chop the grenade launcher off the bottom and hold it from the underside. And there's one with every sprue, so twelve to a set. Plenty to practice on if your knife hand is as unsteady as mine. Creating a handle on the top would be a little trickier, but I figure anyone who'd be so worried about it as to want to change it would have plenty of practice with green stuff and all that.
I too dislike the gun. Its as if someone saw a normal LMG, and then decided to combine it with a "portable minigun" grip. Makes no sense at all imo
lord marcus wrote:Still waiting on plastics pictures or sprue pictures. Past promised date of release, i might add.
I probably mentioned this long ago on another topic but unless they have the finished product weeks ahead of their release date, theres probably a good 2-3 week window when it comes to releases by these companies. Can go much longer too (still waiting on victrix's hoplites...)
kenshin620 wrote:I too dislike the gun. Its as if someone saw a normal LMG, and then decided to combine it with a "portable minigun" grip. Makes no sense at all imo
Neither does a standard lasgun..because it isn't real.
The gun is meant to invoke the Smartgun from Aliens, and is based on a real weapon (as posted a bit farther up thread) -- a SAW with an underslung grenade launcher, which the GL being taken from the underslung from the rifle. I'm personally going to clip off the launcher because, goddamn it's ridiculous!, and fiddle with the rest of the grip.
Also, apparently the mold is almost done, but they've been fiddling around with the tooling. Theoretically, once they figure out how to do it, further molds should go out quicker. Specifically, I mean, once the toolers perfect the method they will use, with their tools, to cut the mold to the desired level of detail.
dsteingass wrote:Since when does wargaming have to be 100% historically accurate like a scale model? This is Sci-Fi for feth's sake! There is no correct way to hold that weapon because it DOESN'T EXIST
Actually, the gun is almost a direct lift from this concept weapon:
The video makes me like the marines alot more now. Maybe Im just a gun freak. Although I guess shooting from the hip isn't the most accurate way. Maybe in that fat helmet are some swanky targeting computer display stuff.
jedi76 wrote:The video makes me like the marines alot more now. Maybe Im just a gun freak. Although I guess shooting from the hip isn't the most accurate way. Maybe in that fat helmet are some swanky targeting computer display stuff.
Yeah, that is the idea exactly. The gun is a "concept weapon" that isn't practical now but was created to show what guns might look like if future targeting means that aiming down your sights is no longer required. Apparently in the Defiance Games universe, that targeting tech has been created.
I think it's ubercool how they actually tell ya how it's done. Seems like the only folks ever that take the time to explain the process, instead of just "yeah, the kids in china make our stuffs" like everyone else.
Looks like those marines are gonna be outclassed in regards to body armor. Those future corporations probably have more money to spend then the pentagon I suppose I wonder if the marines are meant to be the peacekeeping force in a future full of corporate wars?
jedi76 wrote:Looks like those marines are gonna be outclassed in regards to body armor. Those future corporations probably have more money to spend then the pentagon I suppose I wonder if the marines are meant to be the peacekeeping force in a future full of corporate wars?
I'd suggest you read the entire thread.
The "body armor" troops are the standards. That piece of concept art is for a "hardsuit", which is essentially the Terminator armored troops of this upcoming system: a heavily armored suit bristling with guns for extremely hazardous operations. The Marines have one, albeit not as advanced as this--but far more heavily armed.
As I have said before I love the SF3D/ Maschinen Krieger (Ma.K ZBV3000) 'vibe' it's got. But come on Tony, you want to ditch the reputation of WFG, this isn't the way to do it.
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
Concept art for the USMC 'hardsuit'
As I have said before I love the SF3D/ Maschinen Krieger (Ma.K ZBV3000) 'vibe' it's got. But come on Tony, you want to ditch the reputation of WFG, this isn't the way to do it.
Emphasis mine.
Que?
MaK influence aside (which, from the original WF thread on powered armor requests, was the most popular cited design), the USMC powered armor is actually a design licensed by a professional artist: Alexander Iglesias, a.k.a. flyingdebris. Specially, this bad boy. He's also the one who did the German, and did the pose reference images from both.
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
Concept art for the USMC 'hardsuit'
As I have said before I love the SF3D/ Maschinen Krieger (Ma.K ZBV3000) 'vibe' it's got. But come on Tony, you want to ditch the reputation of WFG, this isn't the way to do it.
Emphasis mine.
Que?
MaK influence aside (which, from the original WF thread on powered armor requests, was the most popular cited design), the USMC powered armor is actually a design licensed by a professional artist: Alexander Iglesias, a.k.a. flyingdebris. Specially, this bad boy. He's also the one who did the German, and did the pose reference images from both.
I never said the USMC 'hardsuit' was a rip-off. Infact I think compairing it to Maschinen Krieger is very high praise. I like what people can come up with kit-bashing or doing extreme conversion work with model kits. I love the look of the USMC hardsuit. It's not a feasable design to move in as the hip placment is wrong for a human being. You would have to be so bow-legged in that suit it would be almost unwearable. But I like the suit enough that I can 'suspend my disbelief' and just dig it for what it is, a bad-ass powersuit.
Personally I think that powerarmour is going to look like a landmate from appleseed where the 'wearer' sits in the chest cavity and his legs only extend into the machine's thighs. This solves alot of prolems but also opens up a whole new can of worms mainly if you have a human sitting in the chest of a robot where do you put the power source? Where do all the mechanics go, where do the computers go? Miniatureization is only going to go so far. There are so many problems to solve before this could ever become feasable. But it shure is fun to speculate on it isn't it? =o]
I really want those German guns separately. They are excellent, matching the rule of cool perfectly.
I also quite like the heavy armour German dude. Will make an excellent Shock Trooper or veteran with Carapace. The helmets are damn awesome.
But once again, I *need* those guns separately. If you could make just a small sprue of each different style to sell separately (I am mostly interested in the first and second - the regular gun and the one with the grenade launcher underslung) I would be picking up a fair few of these.
If that's the logic we are using. those legs and shoulders are very alike. In it's nature, infantry armour is going to look vaguely similar, because the hole point is to protect the wearer, and there isn't a huge amount fo ways you can go with that one.
They look vaguely similar, but to the degree I could compare modern infantry to Imperial Guard.
Ok, after keeping an eye on this post for a while now and only seeing rare updates I've got to ask Defiance: When the hell are you actually going to release anything for sale? Its alright posting stuff for feedback and all, but there comes a time when you have to put your money where your mouth is! So when will they be appearing in shops?
Slipstream wrote:Ok, after keeping an eye on this post for a while now and only seeing rare updates I've got to ask Defiance: When the hell are you actually going to release anything for sale? Its alright posting stuff for feedback and all, but there comes a time when you have to put your money where your mouth is! So when will they be appearing in shops?
This may be taken wrong but, you realize that Dakka is not the sum of the internet or even tabletop gaming, right? They've never actually posted anything on Dakka as far as I know. Some people copied things from their website; I recommend you look there by googling "Defiance Games" where there are numerous updates and even an online store to buy the Marines which are available for sale.
The Warstore has their marines for sale the last I checked.
Hi Agnosto, and no I've not taken your response the wrong way at all, infact I welcome your news that you can actually buy their products! It was just that whoever was posting the info(and I'd think that the person who provided the majority of it seemed to be 'well in' with the manufacturer to do so) and yet the majority of it was just concept drawings and no real impression of anything progressing beyond that! I mean how many more concepts do we need?
I'm now going to head over to the warstore/defiance to see what's what.
Huh. Well, I owe an apology for being wrong. I think I'd be royally irked if I had paid money with the understanding of an earlier release only to be constantly put on hold. On the other hand, it's good that they're supplying status reports of a sort even though they haven't even said how soon, "soon" is.
I hope they at least kick in a sprue or two for those that pre-paid months ago and have been waiting.
I really like what Defiance is doing.. Models are made here in the US instead of China... and they actually tell you what's going on and how they're making stuff instead of keeping everything secret...
One thing I learned the hard way just getting my own miniatures made is everything takes a heluva long time. For me, it was like 3 months to get my first figure released from the day the sculptor started till the day I finally had the final product in my hands ready for sale. About a month of that time was just me waiting for stuff to ship all over the place at different stages. I'd bet getting new plastic models started from scratch would take much longer too, seems like there's so much more involved.
I really like what Defiance is doing too. Kind of a breath of fresh air from what I'm used to. They'd definitely make great models for a couple different systems. I check in on this thread from time to time. I'm eagerly waiting to pick up a squad of this or that to paint up and display.
It is also very cool that we have someone from the company making regular feedback and that we get to see WIPs and factory shots of moulds and stuff.
The mold is almost done. These are the cavities and all they need now is to cut the runners for the plastics and they can start churning this things out. There should be a test cast tomorrow.
In case you're wondering, this will be a modular mold; for future sets, they can take pieces of the mold and transfer them to others. For instance, the USMC heavy weapon set with need a couple of gun arms so, instead of cutting a new cavity in a mold, they can simple take a piece from this one and slot it in. It should lower costs a bit and make for faster set production.
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MightyGodzilla wrote:
It is also very cool that we have someone from the company making regular feedback and that we get to see WIPs and factory shots of moulds and stuff.
If you're talking about me, I'm just a playtester. I'm not getting paid for this (though there was some talk a while back about free soldiers. I'm gonna have to cash that in for the Bugs ).
The customer always runs a risk when they pre-order. Production delays can and do happen. They don't look good on the company, but it sounds like it's one of their subs who're at fault (I hope they have penalties worked into the contract with them).
Good on them to have someone posting updates so we can see that our money isn't being well spent on hookers and booze. Instead it's being frivolously spent on things like molds.
the problem is that the subs were "learning as they go" (taken from the warseer discussion) which leads me to belive that with preorders already out, DFG chose an inexperienced mold making team to do their initial release.
Whitey Blackman wrote:
Good on them to have someone posting updates so we can see that our money isn't being well spent on hookers and booze. Instead it's being frivolously spent on things like molds.
How dare they buy molds instead of hookers and booze!
That said, it's good to hear things are getting on track. Sounds like they're choosing to invest in a relatively new production company, which could be spun later as a benefit to them since they'd have close ties and be able to work things a bit differently than other companies out there which are either casting in-house(which is expensive as all get out) or having to wait in line for an established, well-known production company.
I agree that the delays are mounting and it is rather annoying. I can forgive them as they are a new company and are dealing with other newer companies from the sound of it. So all is good as long as they keep people posted and the delay story doesnt get repeated enough to just sound like things are not as advertised. Once that happens then the I will look elsewhere for my toys.
Shows as in stock for me as well, but I'm pretty disinclined to order anything since their website surely doesn't show any finished frames. But who knows at this point.
I'm still kind of interested, but the delays have tempered my interest somewhat. I wouldn't have a problem with the delays if they would have been a little more up-front about the fact their release date was tenuous, and not set in stone. I think people don't might waiting if they know beforehand they will be doing so.
lord marcus wrote:the problem is that the subs were "learning as they go" (taken from the warseer discussion) which leads me to belive that with preorders already out, DFG chose an inexperienced mold making team to do their initial release.
Yeah, it was getting a little heated over there on WS. I won't buy anything from DFG ( and I really like the look of the USMC hard suits and German Heer.) until I see other stores with them in stock.
I just hope that this doesn't turn into WGF re-dux =o[
Ouze wrote:Shows as in stock for me as well, but I'm pretty disinclined to order anything since their website surely doesn't show any finished frames. But who knows at this point.
I'm still kind of interested, but the delays have tempered my interest somewhat. I wouldn't have a problem with the delays if they would have been a little more up-front about the fact their release date was tenuous, and not set in stone. I think people don't might waiting if they know beforehand they will be doing so.
The problem is that, well, the release date WAS set in stone. The toolmaker guaranteed that the molds would be ready by Christmas, so a release date of January 16th was set.
I think, though, the real lesson here is to hold off on preorders until you actually have plastic in hand . . .
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lord marcus wrote:the problem is that the subs were "learning as they go" (taken from the warseer discussion) which leads me to belive that with preorders already out, DFG chose an inexperienced mold making team to do their initial release.
Actually, no. Defiance has been working with this toolmaker for several months. The preorder was set because they were assured that the mold would be ready. It wasn't a case of "get preorders to finance the mold, then find somebody to cut it." The mold has, believe it or not, already been paid for and has been in the works for several months at various stages (renders, sorting out software incompatibilities, figuring out how to cut it with equipment on hand, etc).
Edit: as a side note, this is the first forum I've seen that automatically appends stuff to a previous post and I really, REALLY like it!
The problem is that, well, the release date WAS set in stone. The toolmaker guaranteed that the molds would be ready by Christmas, so a release date of January 16th was set.
I think, though, the real lesson here is to hold off on preorders until you actually have plastic in hand . . .
I lurk on here and am eagerly anticipating the Germans from this company. When I saw Xeno's post I couldn't resist:
Contracts Law- "time is of the essence clause"
A time is of the essence clause is inserted into a valid bilateral contract to ensure performance by a certain date. Failure of one party to perform by the date stipulated in the contract will entitle the non-breaching party to liquidated damages up to and including the full price of the completed contract. Or, a damages amount foreseeable to both and expressly noted at formation.
Here, it appears DFG made a bilateral contract (an agreement between it and the caster) to have the models ready by January 16th. Failure of this condition entitles DFG to the full cost of what the contract would have been if completed by the date specified. In other words, all the delayed pre-orders which are being complained of above, if they were to result in loss of business for DFG, would be recoverable. This is only if DFG wants to pursue some kind of legal injunction to compel the casting guys to move faster. My guess is since they are a new company they don't want to roil the waters too much so they will hold off.
Of course, this means everyone who placed pre-orders will have to wait....
I plan to hold off until the Heer; if the kit is half as awesome as I think it will be I'll invest in an army of them.
3D print of the Bug parts, specifically the lower and upper body, arms and legs, and heads. I have no idea what the oval-thing is, but I'm going to speculate it's a Bug Egg. My unfounded assumption is that each sprue will have two bugs plus two of each arm, leg, and head.
The mold for these should be ready in a week or two, according to Tony, but no guarantees. This particular mold will be a plastic-resin spin cast mold, so none of the problems with the previous mold as far as cost or serious delays (hopefully). Defiance has been experimenting with a couple of plastic mixtures which have been bearing fruit, so they'll be taking a different tack. Ideally, this'll mean cheap molds and faster turnaround times on sets. They'll be able to flesh out ranges much, much faster since they won't have to wait for tooling and, ideally, might even be able to do casting in house.
Also, that's a German rifle on there. I'm not sure if the Germans will be spin-cast as well. They are still tweaking the Germans and I'll see if I can get them to include a loose rifle on the sprue (I'm a fan of them myself -- very useful for conversions and scenery). I can't make any guarantees, though.
The Marines continue to move along in tooling - we received a message from the toolmaker that he was cutting runners (i.e. the place where the plastic flows to get to the parts) and the ejector pin holes (the bits that push the injected frame off the mold) - so far so good.
In the meantime, as we mentioned we have been looking at additional manufacturing methods to get the plastic flowing FASTER. The Bug parts went into this tooling process late last week and we MAY actually see some test shots in the next few days. If that's the case, and all goes well, I'll be sure to post them ASAP.
Tim Barry - sculptor extraordinaire - has been hard at work making some revisions to the Germans to take advantage of the new plastic production process. We're adding some details, trying to get closer to the concept artwork, and adding some parts (we have more mold room to take advantage of - so we are adding some head options, some alternate arms, and adding in a shortened carbine version of the venerable G-54 assault rifle!) Once he has gotten to a point he is happywith them, I'll post up some renders for everyone to check out!
The Germans will follow immediately behind the Bugs and Marines - we'll then start previewing the next sets.
That's it for this short Tuesday update - keep an eye out here and on Facebook for more images and news later this week!
I need both of those German guns as separate items. They are too cool to pass up as weapons for my other guys. I hope they give us the option to buy them separately.
Unfortunately, there's no chance at all of a separate gun sprue. It's a matter of simple economics: it costs somewhere in the neighborhood of several thousand dollars to make a plastic mold. It's cheaper to do a resin mold, but something like that is probably a ways off. I'm going to keep harping at Tony et al about including a separate rifle on the sprue, though. This might or might not be more reasonable: Tony mentioned in the news post that the German sprue will probably be a little larger than the Marine sprue, meaning more room for options and accessories.
Another option, though, is separate rifles for the Vralk set (which is currently in the very early concept stages) as the plan is the have options for them to be armed with US and German weapons along with traditional medieval-tech weapons.
Maybe once they get their production hiccups out of the way and really start producing stuff they could do some 3D prints/resin for gun sprues or something like that.. If there's a demand I bet they'd find a way for me personally I'm waiting to see the all ze germans. Think I like those mockups better than the USMC stuff.
3D prints is, I think, a good option. I'd actually like to see Defiance produce an accessory set for each force -- loose weapons, pouches, backpacks, etc. I know I've bought plenty of Cadian bits specifically for conversions and to bulk up my WF Shock Troops. In my opinion, a soldier NOT laden down with massive quantities of gear looks downright unnatural.
I plan to add Defiance Games parts to my webshop once they are eventually released for those who just want certain parts. Those guns do look pretty awesome don't they.
For those interested in loose weapons, this was just posted over on the DG Facebook page:
Defiance Games wrote:A quick follow up on loose weapons - based on the responses here and through email that they're a "must have" product. Two more questions for you:
1. For something like the Germans - where you have the standard G-54, G-54 with underslung GL, G-54 carbine, and the SSW - do you want a mix or want all of the same in a blister?
2. Is 10 a good # for a blister?
Thanks again!
Apparently, the process they are going to use for sets moving forward makes it cost-effective to produce small sets like this. The potential price point is 10 for $5, with probably a mix of weapon variations.
Considering they're going on 2 months behind schedule to produce ANYTHING, I'd hold off on dripping praise all over them and preparing to hand out your money.
I was excited until the same sort of issues this group put people through when they ran WGF started creeping up. Now I'm in a "wait and see if it actually happens" mode.
agnosto wrote:Considering they're going on 2 months behind schedule to produce ANYTHING, I'd hold off on dripping praise all over them and preparing to hand out your money.
I was excited until the same sort of issues this group put people through when they ran WGF started creeping up. Now I'm in a "wait and see if it actually happens" mode.
Unfortunately that was the fault of the guys producing the sprues, not Defiance Games themselves, as well as the new techniques for moulding allowing them to create better sprues and detail.
After all, wouldn't you rather have much better quality, and more for your money? At least Defiance Games are providing regular news on the goings on.
agnosto wrote:I was excited until the same sort of issues this group put people through when they ran WGF started creeping up. Now I'm in a "wait and see if it actually happens" mode.
Unfortunately that was the fault of the guys producing the sprues, not Defiance Games themselves...
I believe that was Agnosto's point: that's what they said last time. I certainly hope that everything goes smoothly from this point, that we get the first USMC kit on Monday as promised and I finally get an all-girl kit some time in the next few months, but when someone uses the same excuse twice in a row, it's worth keeping the possibility in mind that it might not be a coincidence.
Unfortunately that was the fault of the guys producing the sprues, not Defiance Games themselves, as well as the new techniques for moulding allowing them to create better sprues and detail.
After all, wouldn't you rather have much better quality, and more for your money? At least Defiance Games are providing regular news on the goings on.
It's always someone else's fault. These guys always have good ideas, grand plans and then it all falls apart... meanwhile, they're sitting on people's money who have yet to actually get any benefit except more excuses and a few pictures of machinery parts. I don't doubt that they'll eventually (note that word) release a product; it's just that my initial plans to buy from them have been reconsidered since we obviously can't trust their word.
I could not agree more. After the colossal embarrassment that Wargames Factory's turned into, I don't think it's prudent to trust any of these johnnie-come-latelys with their big promises
meh, after starting my own meager minis company, I can sympathize.. lots of BS comes up so you just gotta stick to your guns and work through it. I wish em the best of luck, definitely looking forward to zee germans.
Agamemnon2 wrote:I could not agree more. After the colossal embarrassment that Wargames Factory's turned into, I don't think it's prudent to trust any of these johnnie-come-latelys with their big promises
I don't really think it's fair to call Wargames Factory a "colossal embarrassment." The current crew has been releasing updates regularly and, after a couple of initial stumbles, has put out two quality sets, and the Germans look like they'll be good as well. Plus, the PR people seem very polite and their customer service, in the limited experience I have with it, has gotten pretty good.
So the Marine mold is almost done, and by "almost done" I mean "here are the pictures":
Meanwhile, the Bugs are also almost done, and by almost done I mean "Samples are in house and are being test assembled." They are using a different type of plastic than standard High Impact Polystyrene which might or might not react the same to standard HIPS glue, so the tests are to see if that or Superglue needs to be used.
What this means is that, yes, you're going to get your toys
So what's the deal with these guys? Are they some guys that left Wargames factory or something?I know they were having trouble internally with some sort of management shakeup or whatnot, but I didn't keep up with it. I keep noticing that people bring that up and that kind of bothers me, but I'll let the models speak for themselves when they come out.
However, looking at the actual sprues and recent pictures, it looks like you're getting great detail for the price. $29.95 for 24 models (and roughly $5 shipping, so for 35 bucks you're getting 24 models... can't really beat that). They also appear to be highly poseable (unlike the WF greatcoat troopers, which were kind of a let down) as well as have tons of different weapons and head choices. If they follow through on their promise of additional weapon sprues for $5 a pop, they could have a really awesome product line in the making.
I'll probably buy a set of the marines just because they look cool (no idea what I'll use them for, but I'm sure I'll think of something ), but I'll be hanging on to most of my money until they release zee germans. If they can get even REMOTELY close to how cool those concept pictures look, those guys are going to look positively awesome.
Wargames Factory is founding 2008-2009 by Tony Reidy and Tim Barry. They bring on John Morse as business manager, Howard Whitehouse as rules-writer and forum moderator, and Lonnia Mullins as publicist and liason to retailers. The goal is to produce plastic miniatures using 3D sculpting, rather than the traditional (and expensive and time intensive) 3-Up method; the ideal is that they will be able to produce quality miniatures are a reasonable price; normal plastic, multi-pose miniatures require expensive ($20K) metal molds and a long time to produce. As with most other companies producing plastic toys, they have their manufacturing done in China.
After releasing several sets at a slow-pace -- due to problems on both ends -- Tony Reidy decides to sell the Chinese Manufacturer, Wai Kee Hui, a 41% share of the company in exchange for the capital necessary to increase the pace of releases. To this point, the company had been rlying on one release the fund the next, with the other sets providing a small income. Since plastic molds last a long time, once you've paid for the mold and material through sales (say, 1,000 boxes at $20 each) the mold is paid off and anything left is pure profit. So Tony wants to increase the rate of release so they can garner more first sales and more steady sales.
The company releases sets as a steady pace: Ancient Romans, Celt and German infantry and cavalry, Celtic Chariots, Numidians, Vikings, Anglo-saxons, two Zulu War sets (British and Zulus) and zombies. Their Shock Trooper release, which comes from the Liberty and Union League (where people can request sets that can be voted on; enough votes means the set goes into production) has finally gone into production with massive preorders. However, it is hit by delay-after-delay. Compounded by the product being put on the wrong boat and shipping through the Panama Canal to Boston instead of to California to be loaded onto a train; this adds a month to the process. Then the shipment gets hung up in customs. Along with this is restocks for the company's other products. Finally, after a very long delay, enough Shock Troopers and other stuff are air-mailed to meet some of the preorders. Priority is given to distributors such as the War Store, which causes many complaints amongst individual preorders. Eventually, the shipment is cleared through customs and product starts shipping.
However, this isn't the end of the problems. Tony Reidy et al continue with their plan to accelerate the release schedule with the following sets -- Skeletons, Orcs, Amazons, Persian Infantry, Greek Infantry, and War of Spanish Succession Infantry (another L&UL set). All are rendered and sent off to tooling, and preorders begin for most. However, this release is yet another cluster- -- the wrong product, and in not enough quantity, is placed on the boat and they are unable to meet the preorders. Around this time, Lonnie Mullins forwards an internal company e-mail to Wai Kee Hui, in which Tony accuses Mr. Hui of conspiring against WF and calls him several nasty things. Wai Kee immediately sacks Tony Reidy along with the entire staff save Lonnie Mullins, leaving Wargames Factory without even a sculptor.
In the process, a lot of records (orders and customer communications) go missing -- according to Mr. Reidy, this is due to a problem with their server not processing and sending e-mails directly, which is so bad that the only effective way to contact the staff is to e-mail them directly. At this point, Mr. Hui, through George Sivy, his US rep, and Lonnie Mullins, bring in additional staff to help them sort through the orders and get things shipped out (which eventually involves a new facility in Utah). In the process, they establish a cut-off date stating they will not honor orders made before Mr. Reidy's removal, and also stating they will not pay WF's original shipper and at least one painter who did work for the company. They also place the blame squarely on the departing team.
Slowly, WF manages to piece itself back together: product gets back in stock, orders are filled, and stuff starts shipping. They release the already-done Skeletons, Amazons, Orcs, Persians, and WSS, along with Greek Warriors which were mostly sculpted by Tim Barry and completed by the company's newly hired sculptor. They follow this up with WSS Cavalry, Shock Trooper heavy weapons, Samurai, and Ashigaru, and are currently set to release a series of WWII sets. So they seem to have gotten their act together. I've even ordered from them and gotten the product quickly and efficiently.
Meanwhile, Tony et al decided to have another go at it and started Defiance Games, with the first releases being Marines and Bugs. However, this has been a very long process with many delays which you can read about in more detail in this thread. However, it should be coming to an end soon: molds are done for the Marines and Bugs, tests of the Bugs have been made, and test plastic for the Marines should be in this week (the "tests" being running plastic through the mold to make sure there are no flaws).
As to what the deal is, Tony Reidy especially has engendered a lot of bad will. Apparently, he got into some nasty arguments with people on Frothers during WF's early days and, shortly before being removed as director of WF, was banned from The Miniatures Page for sock-puppeting. I'm not entirely sure what the deal with that is, but Tony posted another the name "Fifty-Four" and another poster, "The Rifleman" who always posted positively in WF threads. These were found to be using the same IP, a computer located in the WF shipping facility in Massachusets. While it's likely that "The Rifleman" was John Morse or Tim Barry (both of whom would have used that computer) the blame fell on Tony and he was banned. He is currently unbanned. Additionally, the long delays in product releases mean that Tony has been accused of, for instance, taking pre-orders on product that didn't exist to fund that product, or just outright stealing the money.
Technically, some of this is true: when the Marines were put up for pre-order, the mold had not been cut yet. They'd been given a guarantee from the mold maker that the mold would be complete before Christmas and took him at his word. Obviously, this did not come to pass. This has a vocal group of people convinced that the product is vaporware and that the money has been stolen. Even posting actual pictures of the mold has done nothing to change this.
Honestly, it's all very ugly and most of us involved in the project (I am a playtester for the Alien War ruleset) wish it'd all stop so the company can make its toys in peace.
meh-and-a-half I could care less about interweb drama. If they make cool models that I just have to have, I'll give them my money. Same goes for just about company. Yeah, I'm a hoarder of army mens :(
Between the Germans and the bugs I am very excited about this company. I could care less about the WGF past. So far Tony has been forthcoming with info regarding the delays. The product looks great and the concepts for the Hardsuits have me very excited. I am looking forward to the future with Defiance now that I have left GW firmly behind me.
@xenos, thank you very much for the info, clears up a lot of questions I had!
I actually just joined their forums, so you may see me on there, as I'm really interested in the game. The guys that run the company seem to be pretty cool, and now that they're starting to get things under control I think the delays are going to smooth out a bit.
I'm tempted to order a set of their marines, but what I really want are the panzergrenadiers. Anyone have a rough idea of when the germans are coming out?
The German's were originally set up for HIPS and a sprue the way the Marines are. However, with the turnaround speed of the Bugs and the overall level of satisfaction Tony and the crew have had with it, they're going back in and adapting it to the Hard Plastic. Apparently the Hard Plastic flows better and thinner, so the level of detail can be finer, so they can go back in and fix a few things they weren't happy with, some compromises for the HIPS. I know the helmets are being revisited in particular, but I'm not in the know about what else is being redone. Also, the HIPS limits the parts that can be on the sprue and apparently it is quite expensive to get a mold made. With the new system they're using, it is far cheaper to make a mold, so they are creating some new parts that had to be left off the sprue before. How's everyone feel about kneeling legs? I can't give an exact timeline, considering I don't know exactly how long it took to make the molds for the bugs and all that, but the heavy lifting has already been done and all that's left is adapting it to the new material. Someone who's more on the inside of the business may be able to give a better estimate, but hopefully this will put your mind at ease.
Necros wrote:meh-and-a-half I could care less about interweb drama. If they make cool models that I just have to have, I'll give them my money. Same goes for just about company. Yeah, I'm a hoarder of army mens :(
....Except the bit about tracking the IP back to the shipping pc. The only way that could be done is if the shipping PC had a static IP from the ISP, (aka no firewall, etc.) which no company on earth would do if they valued their corporate data. That part of the story is BS I'm afraid. But a great story nonetheless.
dsteingass wrote:....Except the bit about tracking the IP back to the shipping pc. The only way that could be done is if the shipping PC had a static IP from the ISP, (aka no firewall, etc.) which no company on earth would do if they valued their corporate data. That part of the story is BS I'm afraid. But a great story nonetheless.
That's just how I read it from TMP, where I was following the drama. I could be misremembering; I have a memory like a steel trap trying to hold water, after all.
I love the bugs, but I'd say they're more suited to 15mm gaming than 28mm. Which is a good thing, it makes them the first 15mm sci-fi plastic kit, ha ha.
lord_blackfang wrote:I love the bugs, but I'd say they're more suited to 15mm gaming than 28mm. Which is a good thing, it makes them the first 15mm sci-fi plastic kit, ha ha.
These are drones, they aren't supposed to be the big nasty bugs, these ones are chitinous hordes that drown men in numbers. Although I am sure those big ol' nasty bugs will follow soon!
Im in love with those bugs, and i see a very nasty horde of them waliking over my board... And serious, scrudge the mans past, his job right now is great, and that is what matters.
Xeno wrote:Some shots of the first couple of sample Bugs with the old USMC 3D print for scale.
One random thing I just noticed, but why do the drones look like theyre dancing? The one on the left especially. he looks like he's saying "WE'RE FINALLY GETTIN RELEASED!!!! YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!"
That said, they do look awesome and I can't wait to see what they look like painted up. I'm about to order a set of the marines tonight and hopefully they'll be shipped out soon.
MrMoustaffa wrote:
One random thing I just noticed, but why do the drones look like theyre dancing?
Actually they're an a chav "Back off, I know kung-fu" pose.
What the heck is a chav anyways? I keep hearing brits talk about it, but in the southern US where I live I've never heard that term used. It's something like a white guy who poses as a rapper correct?
We call those speed bumps where I live, due to the fact that they're usually not more than punching bags
I actually made a demotivational poster using that pic that used something along the lines of "come at me bro", but I won't post it because it's rather silly haha
Well, I am glad that Defiance is finally taking off. I had my order of shock troopers delayed by some of the nonsense, and Tony personally replied to my inquiries I now have over 100 Great Coat rifle-men with support weapons. Just have to finish painting 'em all!
I like the Marines and the bugs look pretty cool too, Germans and other art looks great and the concpet of the hard suits is also okay, maybe modify them to avoid looking too much like someone else's hard suits? Mod the head area some what to avoid that egg shape.
MrMoustaffa wrote:
One random thing I just noticed, but why do the drones look like theyre dancing?
Actually they're an a chav "Back off, I know kung-fu" pose.
What the heck is a chav anyways? I keep hearing brits talk about it, but in the southern US where I live I've never heard that term used. It's something like a white guy who poses as a rapper correct?
We call those speed bumps where I live, due to the fact that they're usually not more than punching bags
I actually made a demotivational poster using that pic that used something along the lines of "come at me bro", but I won't post it because it's rather silly haha
as far as i know a chav is like UK version of trailer trash.
MrMoustaffa wrote:
One random thing I just noticed, but why do the drones look like theyre dancing?
Actually they're an a chav "Back off, I know kung-fu" pose.
What the heck is a chav anyways? I keep hearing brits talk about it, but in the southern US where I live I've never heard that term used. It's something like a white guy who poses as a rapper correct?
We call those speed bumps where I live, due to the fact that they're usually not more than punching bags
I actually made a demotivational poster using that pic that used something along the lines of "come at me bro", but I won't post it because it's rather silly haha
as far as i know a chav is like UK version of trailer trash.
As someone explained to me me, they are people who hang around in packs or groups and beat up, rob, fight and pick on people they normally wouldn't when not in the group. So trailer park trash....or newfies
They were supposed to be in production by the end of this week but I guess Monday's not too bad since they're already more than 2 months late as is. I'd personally be looking for some interest in the form of extra miniatures from Defiance if I were a pre-paid customer, the incessant delays are reaching ridiculous level now.
The models look nice, we'll just have to see if anything actually makes it out the door. [/sarcasm]
noneoftheabove0 wrote:The German's were originally set up for HIPS and a sprue the way the Marines are. However, with the turnaround speed of the Bugs and the overall level of satisfaction Tony and the crew have had with it, they're going back in and adapting it to the Hard Plastic. Apparently the Hard Plastic flows better and thinner, so the level of detail can be finer, so they can go back in and fix a few things they weren't happy with, some compromises for the HIPS. I know the helmets are being revisited in particular, but I'm not in the know about what else is being redone. Also, the HIPS limits the parts that can be on the sprue and apparently it is quite expensive to get a mold made. With the new system they're using, it is far cheaper to make a mold, so they are creating some new parts that had to be left off the sprue before. How's everyone feel about kneeling legs? I can't give an exact timeline, considering I don't know exactly how long it took to make the molds for the bugs and all that, but the heavy lifting has already been done and all that's left is adapting it to the new material. Someone who's more on the inside of the business may be able to give a better estimate, but hopefully this will put your mind at ease.
A quick technical explanation for the above: "Hard Plastic" in this case is a thermoset plastic, I.E. a type of resin. They are most likely spincasting the stuff (is my guess) or using RIM (Reaction Injection Molding), which allows production to be done at a faster pace than by hand, but its nowhere near as cheap per part as it would be to use the HIPS injection-molded setup. What this means for us is a shorter wait for product, but my guess is we're going to be paying more (though with luck the product will be more detailed, since its a more forgiving process for undercuts, etc.).The alternative is that they are doing RIM (Reaction Injection Molding) which is kinda like traditional resin casting but its mechanized a bit ala injection molding, in which case we're probably still going to be paying more anyway.
As far as I understand, it is slightly more expensive for the material, but considering the savings on the mold cutting, it comes out pretty much even. I figure most of what you pay for figures is not for the plastic, but for the mold. And if the mold costs one tenth of the other one, then the savings are passed on to you. You end up paying the mold off quicker, getting the company into the black quicker, which gives a faster turnaround time for another new product. Not to mention that a cheaper mold allows the company to do things with a less broad market appeal, because you have to move far less units to get back into the black. Moral of the story: the increased cost of the material should definately be offset by the cheaper mold.
I'm not sure it is a cheaper mold actually. I mean, yes, the cost for one mold is less... but a steel mold will last you a decade, maybe even longer (as will the considerably cheaper aluminum mold) in this hobby, the molds used for the spincasting/RIM process will last you... well, it depends on how many copies you're pumping out, but say somewhere between 250-1000 copies (and thats being rather liberal with my estimate, id be impressed if they can get more than 500 pulls, i'd be surprised if they get more than 300). So, I can't say what the mold itself costs, but I'd imagine after having to replace it say 10 or so times, the costs pretty much break even. Theres also the issue of time, if they are spincasting, then its something like a 10-15 minute work time per mold pull (and RIM is a bit faster than that I think), injection molding you're talking seconds. In the time it takes you to get one copy out of a spincaster, the injection molder can get 100-200 pulls (6sec - 3sec cycle time, and i've heard of even faster before...). The injection molder works unsupervised, the spincaster is a largely manual process and so on and so forth. Moral of the story: It might be cheaper initially, but I sure hope they hired an industrial engineer to evaluate the situation properly.
noneoftheabove0 wrote:As far as I understand, it is slightly more expensive for the material, but considering the savings on the mold cutting, it comes out pretty much even. I figure most of what you pay for figures is not for the plastic, but for the mold. And if the mold costs one tenth of the other one, then the savings are passed on to you. You end up paying the mold off quicker, getting the company into the black quicker, which gives a faster turnaround time for another new product. Not to mention that a cheaper mold allows the company to do things with a less broad market appeal, because you have to move far less units to get back into the black. Moral of the story: the increased cost of the material should definately be offset by the cheaper mold.
That only applies for low volume production runs. Once volume increases, the production cost per model will crowd out the initial overhead cost, making the proper plastic models more profitable.
There's also the problem that restic can't scale up its production like plastic can. Pretty much every manufacturer that uses restic for rank and file - be it Games Workshop's Finecast, Avatars of War's Warcast or Privateer Press's plastics - is incapable of meeting demand, despite charging a higher price. Injection moulded plastic of the sort we're used to might have a higher initial overhead, but it lets you produce - and therefore sell - more models.
What this means for us is a shorter wait for product, but my guess is we're going to be paying more (though with luck the product will be more detailed, since its a more forgiving process for undercuts, etc.).
I remember Tony saying that they want to have similar price for all the basic sets, despite different number of models in each set. I personally like this idea as it levels up the initial cost of the armies that require more models for the same amount of points. I think it sucks if someone who likes one faction has to spend double the amount of money than others to have the basic sets (example IG).
Said that, from what I remember the Germans come in a box of 16, not 24 like marines. That would make up for their higher cost maybe...
The good news is that there is now a photo of the assembled marines.
The bad news is that it's at a resolution worse than I could do with my camera, which is ten years old and free.
The moulds are apparently going back for a few more tweaks before they do another test shot. Quite frankly, I'm astounded at how laid back the manufacturer seems to be, given they're two months past their deadline and counting.
Yeah if what they keep telling us is true, I'm not sure why they've been staying with this manufactuer. They've been getting a lot of customers anoyed and that's not good for bussiness. I came in after they'd announced delays, so i knew what to expect, but I imagine for a guy who preordered back in December, this must be infuriating.
Lets hope Defiance gets them to speed up soon, because if stuff like this keeps happening they'll be screwed.
As for the photo's hilariously bad resolution, they still appear to have detail, which is good I guess. Still annoying trying to zoom in and seeing the picture get even blurrier. Maybe he left it blurry to hide some defects they're ironing out?
MrMoustaffa wrote:Yeah if what they keep telling us is true, I'm not sure why they've been staying with this manufactuer. They've been getting a lot of customers anoyed and that's not good for bussiness. I came in after they'd announced delays, so i knew what to expect, but I imagine for a guy who preordered back in December, this must be infuriating.
Lets hope Defiance gets them to speed up soon, because if stuff like this keeps happening they'll be screwed.
As for the photo's hilariously bad resolution, they still appear to have detail, which is good I guess. Still annoying trying to zoom in and seeing the picture get even blurrier. Maybe he left it blurry to hide some defects they're ironing out?
Because there is quite a lot of work involved in making a plastic mould, it would have been too difficult to cancel it mid-way through sorting the mould and get another supplier, it might have worked out longer than it has done if they went for another manufacturer. I believe though that the next kits will be produced by someone else.
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that the photo is as low resolution as it is because they took the parts from the second test shot and assembled those. They had alot of flash problems on the first run and a few small issues on the second (I think they mentioned that one of the parts had some issues filling with plastic, though there may have been other issues), thusly why the manufacturer is still working. I'm guessing the whole thing is to provide proof positive that plastic is flowing and proof of concept of how well the Marines look assembled. I'm guessing there are some small issues in the details, which is why there aren't a bunch of glory shots of the faces and all that and why they are continuing to tweak the mold. Take the picture for what it is, a huge sign of progress.
noneoftheabove0 wrote:I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that the photo is as low resolution as it is because they took the parts from the second test shot and assembled those. They had alot of flash problems on the first run and a few small issues on the second (I think they mentioned that one of the parts had some issues filling with plastic, though there may have been other issues), thusly why the manufacturer is still working. I'm guessing the whole thing is to provide proof positive that plastic is flowing and proof of concept of how well the Marines look assembled. I'm guessing there are some small issues in the details, which is why there aren't a bunch of glory shots of the faces and all that and why they are continuing to tweak the mold. Take the picture for what it is, a huge sign of progress.
That's what i would do if I was them, so I don't blame them. At least we know they're almost done. I'm just wondering how many people are actually mad at them, if you look at their facebook posts and news posts on their site, the comments are having more and more negative responses popping up. Granted, it seems to be a few repeating people who are going to every comment field, but that's still not good for bussiness. Hopefully, they can get some nice up close shots soon, if anything just so they can quiet the people who are flipping out over a single low res photo.
I get that some people are upset with it (heck, I wanted up close shots too), but some people are looking at it like its some sort of evil plot to trick customers.
These are photos of the final test fire. Apparently there are two things that need to be done still, one being that some packs are sticking to one side of the mold (visible by the three empty sprue bits on the second photo) and a little flash on the bare head. Tony's going to be checking them tomorrow with a magnifying glass just to make sure everything's kosher. In addition, as a thank you to those that preordered, they'll be shipping them a free hero mini. Scuttlebutt is that it's based of Gunny Highway from Heartbreak Ridge. Not sure if those will be shipped with the pre orders or later on. Either way, this is really exciting news.
It didn't look all that different from other companies miniatures I've got. The helmets, weapons, and armor seem to have nice sharp angles, but I guess I'll find out when they show up.
I've got two boxes on order, and when they come in I'll be sure to post some pictures alongside other stuff so people can get an idea of scale and detail. I don't have any paint though, so it'll be unpainted figs next to other unpainted ones. Sorry about that.
They seem to be great value for the money to me at least, but I'm going to hold off on heaping on praise until I've got plastic in my hands. One thing's for sure though, these guys are miles ahead of anything they made at WGF, for roughly the same cost. I've got some greatcoat troopers, and they look nowhere near as good as the pics for these guys do.
I'm probably going to get alot of hate going for this, but I just don't get why everyone loves the Storm Troopers so much. The only two reasons I can even dream up are that they are sold in bulk on the cheap and that you can use them instead of DKOK. But the issue is that the DKOK models look amazing and the Storm Troopers look meh at best. The Storm Troopers are to the DKOK as Catachan are to real jungle troopers. I've seen some good conversions with them, but out of the box, they are just not that impressive.
I agree with the dislike for the Storm-trooper models, I had a joke with my friends that if i managed to receive a unit for free i was going to paint them all up to look like they're wearing floral dresses.
I've purchased a single box of these Defiance marines as an experiment, i am a little skeptical though as no release date has been announced.
According to my confirmation E-mail my order should ship on the 17th January, i don't know if their E-mail message is just severely out of date or if they actually plan to start shipping early next year...
Mr Gutsy wrote:I've purchased a single box of these Defiance marines as an experiment, i am a little skeptical though as no release date has been announced.
According to my confirmation E-mail my order should ship on the 17th January, i don't know if their E-mail message is just severely out of date or if they actually plan to start shipping early next year...
It's severely out of date. There've been delays, more delays and even more delays. More damning in my mind is that DFG (or rather, their sub-contractor) doesn't seem to have come to the conclusion "Oh gak, we're 2+ months behind schedule on a product our client has already paid for! Perhaps we should do things more than once a fething week."
People like the storm troopers because some in the hobby like the gaming aspect more than the collecting or painting aspect and they give a good approximation that is functional.
I don't like them myself, but I can see the appeal they have to others. Hopefully the Defiance games will have even more appeal.
noneoftheabove0 wrote:I'm probably going to get alot of hate going for this, but I just don't get why everyone loves the Storm Troopers so much. The only two reasons I can even dream up are that they are sold in bulk on the cheap and that you can use them instead of DKOK. But the issue is that the DKOK models look amazing and the Storm Troopers look meh at best. The Storm Troopers are to the DKOK as Catachan are to real jungle troopers. I've seen some good conversions with them, but out of the box, they are just not that impressive.
The Wargames Factory ones? Your opinion is hardly a new one. Not many people like them; their poses are bad and their details are goopy. These guys look like a few steps up in the sculpting department, and their poses look good. Not GW levels here, but for the price I like what I see here.
Mr Gutsy wrote:I've purchased a single box of these Defiance marines as an experiment, i am a little skeptical though as no release date has been announced.
According to my confirmation E-mail my order should ship on the 17th January, i don't know if their E-mail message is just severely out of date or if they actually plan to start shipping early next year...
It's severely out of date. There've been delays, more delays and even more delays. More damning in my mind is that DFG (or rather, their sub-contractor) doesn't seem to have come to the conclusion "Oh gak, we're 2+ months behind schedule on a product our client has already paid for! Perhaps we should do things more than once a fething week."
It probably has something to do with the fact that the tooling company actually has other clients too. It's not exactly like Tony et al can just pop into to the shop with a hammer and chisel and work on the mold themselves.
It probably has something to do with the fact that the tooling company actually has other clients too. It's not exactly like Tony et al can just pop into to the shop with a hammer and chisel and work on the mold themselves.
True, but an unreasonable delay can mean a total termination of the contract. If Defiance really wanted to get the models out soon it would tell it's subcontractor it is terminating the agreement for undue delay. I don't know about you but if someone told me they were going to cancel the agreement I would want to make them happy ASAP.
I'm pretty sure Tony did have total control over the text on his website. You know, where he lists the figures as Here Now! and In Stock, and has since November or so.
CptJake wrote:I'm pretty sure Tony did have total control over the text on his website. You know, where he lists the figures as Here Now! and In Stock, and has since November or so.
Mr Gutsy wrote:I've purchased a single box of these Defiance marines as an experiment, i am a little skeptical though as no release date has been announced.
According to my confirmation E-mail my order should ship on the 17th January, i don't know if their E-mail message is just severely out of date or if they actually plan to start shipping early next year...
It's severely out of date. There've been delays, more delays and even more delays. More damning in my mind is that DFG (or rather, their sub-contractor) doesn't seem to have come to the conclusion "Oh gak, we're 2+ months behind schedule on a product our client has already paid for! Perhaps we should do things more than once a fething week."
If what tony said on the forums is correct, they're already looking into other options for the next sets. Whether this just means different ways of doing the molds, or a whole new company, I'm not sure about. I know they've been talking about some sort of interlocking sprue thing that would let them make "bitz sprues" very easily on the cheap.
I actually talked to Tony about my order through their customer service portal thing, and they got back to me very quickly, as well as fixing an issue with my card and refunding a an accidental overcharge almost immediately. If they were trying to scam us or something, I doubt they'd go through the trouble to help me out with my order like that. So for all the guys worried about this being a "scam" I think we'll be fine. It legitimately seems to be a problem of the tooling company having to learn a completely new way of casting. I believe DFG could have handled the situation better (like not starting preorders until they'd already had working test shots of the mold) but it's too late now. It's a new company, stuff like this happens.
At this point, I'm just waiting for them to show up so I can put some together and see what I bought. I really want these guys to be good, as I'd love to support an American company that builds its stuff in the USA. Something about the Amurican in me hates buying British stuff for some reason Well... that, and trying to build a foot horde IG army when a single 10 man box of guardsmen is almost $30 dollars hahah
CptJake wrote:I'm pretty sure Tony did have total control over the text on his website. You know, where he lists the figures as Here Now! and In Stock, and has since November or so.
Haven't we already gone through this 5,000 times?
-Richard
Hey, if Self Appointed PR Being rude to other members is a violation of Dakka rules. Evading the swear filter is also a violation of Dakka rules. -Mannahnin the can make excuses for Tony, I can point out areas he has direct control over and still flubbed up. Once he shows he can unscrew this mess and actually learn from the lessons and produce and deliver product maybe he'll get some slack.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrMoustaffa wrote: It's a new company, stuff like this happens.
Except even though Defiance is a new company, it is NOT Tony's first in the figure making business. Newbie mistakes are not as forgivable when the one making them is not a newbie.
oh yeah I keep forgetting that But a lot of those issues are (supposedly) that this is the first time the moldmakers have done something like this, and that they're learning as they go (as well as apparently being the most laid back company about delays to ever exist). DFG has been making stupid mistakes too (like using a company thats inexperienced and not being prepared for delays) Hopefully they've learned their lesson, and we won't have a fiasco like this again. It looks like this might be the case, as the bugs already have several test molds done and whatnot, but preorders haven't started yet. Maybe this time they'll wait until they know for sure minis are ready to come out before preorders start.
Other than that there's not much else to do. DFG either releases good minis, says "sorry we screwed up, but its not happening again", and nails every release afterwards on time. The other possibility is the minis are meh, delays keep happening, and they'll be gone in a matter of months. These marines will be my final impression on them, and whether I keep buying stuff from them in the future. Like I said earlier, I'll make sure to post pics so others will know what quality these guys are. that way others will be be able to tell if they're worth their time and money or not.
CptJake wrote:Except even though Defiance is a new company, it is NOT Tony's first in the figure making business. Newbie mistakes are not as forgivable when the one making them is not a newbie.
Except that you're forgetting Defiance is a new company. They had to create their business structure from scratch, including finding someone to manufacture their product. Unfortunately, since they wanted to go with someone more-or-less local, that meant going with a company that had zero experience, which has resulted in over two months delay on the release (the original date, if you recall, was January 16th -- heck, it even says that on my order receipt from back in November!). Defiance has had to build up the infrastructure. They are now exploring other options, namely the new types of plastic being done by companies like Troll Forge and Avatars of War, but that didn't exist when Defiance started and contracted this company to do their mold.
This is manufacturing. It's not a smooth process. You just normally don't hear about the bumps in the road.
So, why again are they offering items for sale without any clear indication of items not being available? Their website even says the Marines are "In Stock".
As a business that crosses state lines, if someone were to be negatively affected from my state they could file suit under the state's consumer protection act which includes a maximum $10,000 fine per instance since they are offering something that they are incapable of producing.
Title 15, Section 751 of the state code allows suit for a number of offences including two that might be met here:
Advertising goods or services with intent not to sell them as advertised. (Buy Now! In Stock)
Advertising goods or services with intent not to supply reasonable expected public demand, unless the advertisement prominently discloses a limitation of quantity. (You have to go to the News section, no where on the splash page is it indicated that the items are not actually available).
I'm sure the owners are upstanding citizens and would refund anyone who asks but they could just avoid any confusion with a simple "disclosure" on the home page of their website indicating that the goods are not actually available for immediate sale.
I have created a thread on the official site with the purpose of collecting constructive feedback on the male USMC base kit here. If you have suggestions based on this first kit on how future kits could be improved (or how this kit could be improved by swapping out particular modules), please post there.
So still no minis for sale? SItting on peoples money? Nothing new then. People should start making some renders and selling preorders then close company and blame the chinese and open a new company and do the same thing... even if they ever release something in the future I just do not support this behaviour and looking at the actual lack of quality of the renders, sprues etc its quite easy to ignore them.
CptJake wrote:Except even though Defiance is a new company, it is NOT Tony's first in the figure making business. Newbie mistakes are not as forgivable when the one making them is not a newbie.
Except that you're forgetting Defiance is a new company. They had to create their business structure from scratch, including finding someone to manufacture their product. Unfortunately, since they wanted to go with someone more-or-less local, that meant going with a company that had zero experience, which has resulted in over two months delay on the release (the original date, if you recall, was January 16th -- heck, it even says that on my order receipt from back in November!). Defiance has had to build up the infrastructure. They are now exploring other options, namely the new types of plastic being done by companies like Troll Forge and Avatars of War, but that didn't exist when Defiance started and contracted this company to do their mold.
This is manufacturing. It's not a smooth process. You just normally don't hear about the bumps in the road.
You also don't usually list an item as In Stock in your on line cart that isn't in stock. You also don't use phrases like "The Few The Proud ARE HERE" when in fact, they were not here. Unless Here refers to a special place in the imagination.
Sorry, Tony seems to follow the same business practices he always has. Again, once he produces something and shows he has learned from mistakes he may get some slack. Until then, you ought to consider highlighting the positives vice making excuses for the inexcusable, seeing as you are the Self Appointed PR Guru. You may also want to watch what you type as several of your quoted comments are inaccurate. The 'new types of plastic' did indeed exist when Defiance started. Defiance isn't building infrastructure (as in the machinery of the business), they contract out their work to those who own or own use of infrastructure.
And for the record, I did pre-order these to give Tony a second chance. He has proven to me, a paying customer, that was a mistake.
So still no minis for sale? SItting on peoples money? Nothing new then. People should start making some renders and selling preorders then close company and blame the chinese and open a new company and do the same thing... even if they ever release something in the future I just do not support this behaviour and looking at the actual lack of quality of the renders, sprues etc its quite easy to ignore them.
Don't want to get into this again, but that isn't at all what happened, models were produced, then the company was taken over.
I have seen the first few test mouldings of a marine, but at the moment they are not being shown off because it was simply a test cast, and isn't up to the scratch of an actual moulding. The final models are currently in the post I believe, to Tony.
Xeno wrote:Yes, I will agree that they need be a little clearer on this, but there's no deception.
Thanks for posting that. I never noticed the "Pre-Order!", probably because it's not "Prominently" displayed whereas the big green "In Stock" is.
Obviously my oversight and the fact there's a giant "ORDER NOW!" on the splash page with no mention of "Pre-order".
Add in the fact (yes FACT) that "In Stock" (right above the "add to bag button") and "Here Now" text has not changed, but the "pre-order and date" have over time.
But I'm sure that Mr Self Proclaimed PR guy will tell you how silly it is to assume that "In Stock" and "Here Now" mean anything, and that you should ignore the fact that the other text changes as Tony sees fit. You should ignore the text that says things like "Marines On Sale" (current on their home page as of the time of this post) and "Estimated to Ship In March!" (also current as of the time of this post though since it is 30 March and about 2100 east coast time Tony should have a decent idea as to if March is a reasonable estimate at this point or not).
It is all good.
Wanna make bets as to whether or not the "estimated to ship in March" text changes before the first week in April is over?
Xeno wrote:Yes, I will agree that they need be a little clearer on this, but there's no deception.
Thanks for posting that. I never noticed the "Pre-Order!", probably because it's not "Prominently" displayed whereas the big green "In Stock" is.
Obviously my oversight and the fact there's a giant "ORDER NOW!" on the splash page with no mention of "Pre-order".
Add in the fact (yes FACT) that "In Stock" (right above the "add to bag button") and "Here Now" text has not changed, but the "pre-order and date" have over time.
But I'm sure that Mr Self Proclaimed PR guy will tell you how silly it is to assume that "In Stock" and "Here Now" mean anything, and that you should ignore the fact that the other text changes as Tony sees fit. You should ignore the text that says things like "Marines On Sale" (current on their home page as of the time of this post) and "Estimated to Ship In March!" (also current as of the time of this post though since it is 30 March and about 2100 east coast time Tony should have a decent idea as to if March is a reasonable estimate at this point or not).
It is all good.
Wanna make bets as to whether or not the "estimated to ship in March" text changes before the first week in April is over?
That's just small details that you should ignore There's such a huge truck load of BS in the companies these guys run that I believe its kind of a miracle that anyone still gives them any money upfront.
Xeno wrote:Yes, I will agree that they need be a little clearer on this, but there's no deception.
Thanks for posting that. I never noticed the "Pre-Order!", probably because it's not "Prominently" displayed whereas the big green "In Stock" is.
Obviously my oversight and the fact there's a giant "ORDER NOW!" on the splash page with no mention of "Pre-order".
Add in the fact (yes FACT) that "In Stock" (right above the "add to bag button") and "Here Now" text has not changed, but the "pre-order and date" have over time.
But I'm sure that Mr Self Proclaimed PR guy will tell you how silly it is to assume that "In Stock" and "Here Now" mean anything, and that you should ignore the fact that the other text changes as Tony sees fit. You should ignore the text that says things like "Marines On Sale" (current on their home page as of the time of this post) and "Estimated to Ship In March!" (also current as of the time of this post though since it is 30 March and about 2100 east coast time Tony should have a decent idea as to if March is a reasonable estimate at this point or not).
It is all good.
Wanna make bets as to whether or not the "estimated to ship in March" text changes before the first week in April is over?
That's just small details that you should ignore There's such a huge truck load of BS in the companies these guys run that I believe its kind of a miracle that anyone still gives them any money upfront.
Other than the late miniatures, which has been covered, and the minor thing in the pre-order page, which has also been covered, what else makes the up the contents of this truck? I'd love to know.
Also, thanks for bringing the Preorder page up, I'll be sure to tell Tony so it can be edited.
EDIT: Am I trying to write this with my face or something? Never have I seen so many typos.
Not a very professional way to start a business; once bitten, twice shy I say. You can "cover" the wheretos and whys all you want but the fact is that the company has already missed two deadlines and has even stopped providing updates. Where is the promised update that was supposed to be "Next week" (dated 3/22)?
Tony is currently visiting some relatives with his children I believe, and will be back in a few days, but then, the test marine should have arrived, and some nice grey plastic can be shown off.
winnertakesall wrote:Tony is currently visiting some relatives with his children I believe, and will be back in a few days, but then, the test marine should have arrived, and some nice grey plastic can be shown off.
Because business stops when you visit relatives. And that is why, unfortunately, Defiance will remain a small, two-bit operation...because it's run like one.
Wow, they still haven't released the damn Marines yet? lol, but they'll happily take your money for them anyway? Defiance doesn't seem to be off to a great start. Kinda sad since when this thread first popped up I was kind of excited to see what they came out with.
agnosto wrote:Because business stops when you visit relatives. And that is why, unfortunately, Defiance will remain a small, two-bit operation...because it's run like one.
Not to mention he has not (for all intents and purposes) put a boot in the ass of the mould maker despite being 2 months overdue.
agnosto wrote:Because business stops when you visit relatives. And that is why, unfortunately, Defiance will remain a small, two-bit operation...because it's run like one.
Not to mention he has not (for all intents and purposes) put a boot in the ass of the mould maker despite being 2 months overdue.
To be fair, we (or at least I) do not know what interaction he has or has not had with the group contracted for the marine moulds. I suspect Tony isn't too happy with them and has let them know it.
agnosto wrote:Because business stops when you visit relatives. And that is why, unfortunately, Defiance will remain a small, two-bit operation...because it's run like one.
Not to mention he has not (for all intents and purposes) put a boot in the ass of the mould maker despite being 2 months overdue.
To be fair, we (or at least I) do not know what interaction he has or has not had with the group contracted for the marine moulds. I suspect Tony isn't too happy with them and has let them know it.
He's not. There has been strong language.
The problem is that he can't exactly fire them right now: firing them means basically going back to square one when the mold is already done. Very cathartic, but worse for the business than staying the course. It's gakky situation, but they can't do much about it except get the mold done and release them.
I understand that people are upset about the delays with preorders, but defiance has been pretty upfront about the delays and have been keeping everyone up to date. I see nothing that says "scam". It seems like all of the delays have been honest issues and that most, if not all, have not been by defiance, but the mold company. I am a patient man. I can wait for a good thing and it seems like this is going to be just that.
Now get on those Germans and the gun sprues. Oh, and the hard suit marines. And the valkeries. And the mercenaries! Patients has a limit with me as well, I guess.
CptJake wrote:Scam or incompetence makes no difference if you pre-order and get no figures.
It does make a difference if said incompetence is not Defiance, but the mold maker. And I doubt incompetence is actually the issue. Just inexperience with a new design technique. As I stated before, Defiance has been very forthcoming with info and now plan to compensate pre orders with a limited edition mini. So you get your stuff and a limited mini for the trouble. Is it enough? For some, yes. For others, no. You cant make everyone happy all the time.
I am still quite happy that they are in business and I like what I am waiting for. So I am good. Just want to see all the other stuff that is planned more than the marines. I will still be happy getting them as I still like them.
CptJake wrote:Scam or incompetence makes no difference if you pre-order and get no figures.
It does make a difference if said incompetence is not Defiance, but the mold maker. And I doubt incompetence is actually the issue. Just inexperience with a new design technique. As I stated before, Defiance has been very forthcoming with info and now plan to compensate pre orders with a limited edition mini. So you get your stuff and a limited mini for the trouble. Is it enough? For some, yes. For others, no. You cant make everyone happy all the time.
I am still quite happy that they are in business and I like what I am waiting for. So I am good. Just want to see all the other stuff that is planned more than the marines. I will still be happy getting them as I still like them.
Well one could argue that Defiance was incompetent in choosing their mold maker. There are plenty of miniature companies that do not have the bad track record that Tony has.
My point of view is that pre ordering figures is a form of investment. Tony is not a good investment. He may not be a scam, but you do not see a return on your investment in a timely fashion.
This being said, if he produces good minis and they are in stock, then I will consider buying them.
Tony could just be having a string of bad luck. From what I have read about the WGF situation, he got screwed over by the Chinese guys that currently own the company. With Defiance, Tony chose a mold maker who is causing undo delays for whatever the reason. Supposedly, it is because of a new technique in mold design that they had no experience with. It happens.
Has Tony made mistakes in either situation? I am sure he has. The website stating that the marines were ready for shipping was a bad call. He should have waited till they were in hand and being packaged. None of this causes me to want to spew hate at the guy though. Now if the current issues and delays become common, then I will decide if I continue business with him. Until then I will just wait and see how things go after the marines are finally released.
Hey guys looks like we're in for a big update. This was posted on the forums for DFG last night by Howard
"I will tell you that Howard is meeting Tony at an undisclosed plastics factory in an undisclosed town in an undisclosed state at 11.00 tomorrow.
Okay, the state is 'Massachusetts'." - Howard
They've been further hinting at this either being them signing off that the test prints are done, or that they may well be signing off the forms to start the full production run.
Then this was posted as a response to a post on the Facebook page this morning by Pete Mcf (click on his wall post to see everything that I'm talking about here) http://www.facebook.com/#!/DefianceGames Pete seems to have been commissioned to paint some figures up, and they were posting pics to show people what he had.
"Thanks Pete! Looking good! I'm literally getting in my truck right now to go to Western Massachusetts to sign off on the full production run - and will hopefully take some video. Small packs that are missing on your frame have been "unstuck" from the B side of the tool and it is running great now without any flash to speak of. We're very excited!" - Defiance Games
Looks like they're actually about to go into production today. To back this up, I found some posts on the "Asgard Studio" page on facebook. Pete Mcf (the guy who recieved the frames in the defiance games link) works with some company called "Asgard Studio" (found them on facebook as well http://www.facebook.com/pages/Asgard-Studio/148389741873424 ) and they appear to be some sort of commission painting service. The way they're talking, they should have fully painted figures posted by the end of the day.
While I was on there looking around, I found some more posts by Tony. Besides explaining random things about the sprue that people had questions about (like the "why 36 legs but only 24 torsos" question everyone has been asking) he also posted this.
"Thanks Pete! Looking good. I'm just about to jump in the truck and head out to western Massachusetts to sign off on the full injection run. We'll have more for you shortly and on the shelves soon."- Tony
So there you have it, they're either going into production, or they're just screwing with us at this point. The sprues are looking very good (to me at least) in these recent pics, and if they stay this quality, then they should be a good value for the money. Hopefully some painted Marines will help give us a better idea of what these guys look like (hopefully much better than crummy facebook pictures )
As for me personally, I've got 48 of the little boogers that should be in the mail soon, so I guess I'll get to see for myself. I plan on taking a bunch of comparison photos alongside GW's Cadians and Catachans, as well as WGF's Greatcoat Troopers, to give people an idea on just what they're getting for their money. I'll also mix and match parts to see how well these guys work for kitbashing and conversions. Which forum would be the best for me to post that in? I was thinking of putting it in the painting and modeling forum, so I could go pic crazy and not spam this thread with photos.
EDIT: Cleaned it up a bit and tried to make it easier to read
Necros wrote:Nice to see the're finally getting done.. I hope they make some more "how it's made" videos
That would be neat. They do describe in detail almost every step of the process, but those little videos are cool as well. Maybe they'll do it for the Germans?
Oh well, no matter what, at least these guys are almost done, and should be in the mail soon. I know I can't wait to finally have mine haha
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:It's about time. Now I just wanna see photographs of them next to IG models, and I will be content.
I'll post up a bunch of pics with them alongside Cadians and Catachans. Let me know if there's certain things in particular you want to see. I'll also be mixing and matching parts between them to see how interchangable they are. They had some scale photos on the forums once, and they seem to match up very well, but I guess we'll see when they come in.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:It's about time. Now I just wanna see photographs of them next to IG models, and I will be content.
_Tim?
Hopefully I'll get a sample sprue soon (Tony is mailing to first small batch out to painters and the like) so I'll do size comparisons with every single mini I own, including Cadians, Space Marines, Tyranids, Tau, assorted WF models, Mantic (maybe some of the Warpath stuff if my order arrives in time), and Star Wars pre-paints, plus step-by-step pictures of the minis getting (crappily) painted.
In the meantime, this should tide you over: a comparison shot of one of the 3D prints next for a few different models:
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:It's about time. Now I just wanna see photographs of them next to IG models, and I will be content.
_Tim?
Hopefully I'll get a sample sprue soon (Tony is mailing to first small batch out to painters and the like) so I'll do size comparisons with every single mini I own, including Cadians, Space Marines, Tyranids, Tau, assorted WF models, Mantic (maybe some of the Warpath stuff if my order arrives in time), and Star Wars pre-paints, plus step-by-step pictures of the minis getting (crappily) painted.
In the meantime, this should tide you over: a comparison shot of one of the 3D prints next for a few different models:
What are those two metal ones on the left? I've never seen those before and they look kinda neat.
I'm still waiting for reviews and painted shots of the stuff by actual customers though.
Thats going to take weeks, if not another month
Yeah dude's got a point. They're apparently working as fast as possible to get them out, but I'm really glad that they're taking the time to show us all these videos and stuff. It really helps get interest in it when they can point at the sprue and go, "Yeah, we thought this would be cool, here's why."
I also really liked how they were giving tips for how to convert them, like how for the MG's, he states that if you hate the underslung GL, the easiest way to get it off is with an exacto knife along the bottom of the gun. People on the forum had had mixed feelings about it, but I'm glad they slapped it on and said "hey if you don't like it, here's the best way to get it off."
That said, I wish they'd use something besides an iPhone to take the videos. That showed the detail fairly well, but I think it wouldn't hurt after they sell a few kits to get a HD camera for pics of their models...
Let's just hope they work on getting them out first
time.
Not sure that applies to these marines. 
