Kroothawk wrote:

Eilif wrote:It's very similar to a line of vehicles and suits that appeared in kits under the names Maschinen Krieger
and SF3D.

I think it is obvious that this specific model was the "inspiration" for the Defiance games model. Maschinenkrieger is for alternative WW2 design what Star Wars is for SciFi.

Alex Iglesias, the guy who did the design Defiance licensed, did admit as much, yes. A long, long time ago, that particular piece of art was very popular on the Wargames Factory boards as inspiration for a hypothetical powered armor suit, and so it got licensed by Defiance.

A picture of a pile of German parts showed up on Facebook. Supposedly all Bugs are to be out by end of next week. It's looking good for a slight acceleration of production on those kits.

Still can't bring myself to cheer for a swamp worm. Unless it's a mongolian death worm...

Xeno wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Eilif wrote:It's very similar to a line of vehicles and suits that appeared in kits under the names Maschinen Krieger
and SF3D.

I think it is obvious that this specific model was the "inspiration" for the Defiance games model. Maschinenkrieger is for alternative WW2 design what Star Wars is for SciFi.

Alex Iglesias, the guy who did the design Defiance licensed, did admit as much, yes. A long, long time ago, that particular piece of art was very popular on the Wargames Factory boards as inspiration for a hypothetical powered armor suit, and so it got licensed by Defiance.

That's where I remember seeing that design! I was quite active on the WGF boards until the massive letdown that was the Greatcoat Troopers heavy weapons and officers kit.

having just assembled that kit, I know what you mean. I can't find the gumption to paint them. The miniguns are cool, but the rest is so meh.

I think that when they finally release those hard suits, I will be buying them in tons to make a beautyfull somewing for 40k.

I'm going to get a squad of the suits to add to my ventauran army.
Half of which you can see here:

I've got 3 Tau stealth suits that I was going to use, but I'll probably just trade those away if these are as good as I'm hoping. Besides, 8 is better than 3, yes?

Then I'll have all the bases covered
Light Infantry- Khiff: dogmen in cloaks
Heavy Infantry- Body Armored Ventaurans
Light Vehicles- Defiance Hard Suits
Heavy Vehicle- Large mech converted from Gasaraki model

More news:

Pictures of the "Aleutian Swamp Worms" have been posted.

It has been confirmed with the picture of a UAMC hardsuit MLRS that the pilot's arms are in the torso.

And some pictures have been posted of the finished PZG.

Now that is an update worth reading about.

I love the early sci-fi aesthetic of those swamp worms. So damn creepy.

I like the finished PGs as well.

I think this is the box set I use for making a force for Infinity. One box and I can play huge games with basic troopers. Conversions shouldn't be too hard to make specialists like hackers and the like.

AlexHolker wrote:More news...

It has been confirmed with the picture of a UAMC hardsuit MLRS that the pilot's arms are in the torso.

And some pictures have been posted of the finished PZG.

This is a really nice addition to the hardsuit kit!

I wonder how many will come with the kit?

It will probably also prove to be a really great bit for conversions of other models. This model is proving far more enticing to me than any other recent sci-fi gaming kit.

They've actually posted a bumper crop of images, including this on Facebook:




For those who wanted to weapons separate, looks like you just got your wish!

The swamp worms look remarkably similar to creatures in Peter Jackson's King Kong movie - not that that's a bad thing

Pre-orders on the PZG have gone up, with a machine-gunner model as a pre-order bonus.

Also, recent information about the Swamp Worms and Hardsuits has debunked this list.

I will definitely buy a few hardsuits - to use in Bomb Squads for my Adeptus Arbites...





Also, the Swamp Worms will make excellent terrain (for 40k Carnivouros jungle etc.).

I like the worms. Any word on price?

spaceelf wrote:I like the worms. Any word on price?

Probably 8 for $30.

really liking the PZGs. those arms are badass and can be used for soooooo many conversions! these guys are getting it together



Automatically Appended Next Post:
plus those hardsuits would make great cougar exosuits for starship troopers



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus those hardsuits would make great Cougar suits for starship troopers

With the Dreamforge Games Kickstarter, I think I'll have to wait until the female marines are out to buy the rest of my infantry. Although I will miss out on the pre-order bonus, it'll make more financial sense.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Now that is an update worth reading about.

I love the early sci-fi aesthetic of those swamp worms. So damn creepy.

I like the finished PGs as well.

I think this is the box set I use for making a force for Infinity. One box and I can play huge games with basic troopers. Conversions shouldn't be too hard to make specialists like hackers and the like.

Couldn't agree more. I'm thinking that they would be great for Concilium troopers for scenarios. I imagine they'd have some sort of NATO-like armed forces.

 kendoka wrote:

Humpty Dumpty from the future?

 Skarwael wrote:

 kendoka wrote:

Humpty Dumpty from the future?

Coming this summer... in 3D!

Humpty is back... and this time all the King's horses and all the King's man won't be able to put YOU back together again!

 kendoka wrote:
I will definitely buy a few hardsuits - to use in Bomb Squads for my Adeptus Arbites...

I like how the dude with the massive protective bib doesn't even wear gloves. I know manual dexterity must be at a premium in tense situations such as cutting only a single wire with three seconds left on the clock (call me romantic), but I would feel incredible exposed.

See, I love my hands, and they love me back.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Coming this summer... in 3D!
Humpty is back... and this time all the King's horses and all the King's man won't be able to put YOU back together again!

Is it a kit?

Now I can't see the miniature without seeing the egg face with a huge grinning mouth and small eyes at the top

 kendoka wrote:

Also, the Swamp Worms will make excellent terrain (for 40k Carnivouros jungle etc.).

Those worms look really cool, I love the idea that the marines will be fighting a lot of random alien monsters. They remind me of the 40k create-a-creature in White Dwarf 5 or 6 years ago. They'll make awesome random encounter nasties.

But those bases are KILLING me! Those are the 30mm pre-textured ones that come with the bugs box, and it sets my basing OCD into Maximum Overdrive. The texture is fine, sand can cover that, but the thickness is different from the marine bases and the angle of the bevel is completely different. The ONE thing that unifies models more than anything else is basing. More than color schemes or which company produces them. The worms are supposedly going to use 40mm bases, I really hope they match the marines. Same for the hardsuits.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Now I can't see the miniature without seeing the egg face with a huge grinning mouth and small eyes at the top

DAMN YOU!

Now that is all I see!

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Coming this summer... in 3D!
Humpty is back... and this time all the King's horses and all the King's man won't be able to put YOU back together again!

Is it a kit?

Now I can't see the miniature without seeing the egg face with a huge grinning mouth and small eyes at the top

What has been seen cannot be unseen. Dammit. It's like the arrow in the Fedex logo or the "Huge head, tiny body" of Cnl. Sanders.

That harsuit now looks like an inbred hippo. Imbécile heureux is what we'd say in French.

Not really a fan of the worms.. dunno why, they just don't do it for me. Love the hard suit but I'm gonna be hesitant to preorder stuffs now since I'm still waiting on my box of bugs from May :(

Any word on the size/height of the hard suits, or did I miss it? would they work as a counts-as ogryn? or maybe even sentinel?

I doubt they're bigger than terminators/ogryns so no on the sentinel


Looks kinda funny without arms

 Necros wrote:
I'm still waiting on my box of bugs from May :(

That is shocking!!! After the delays in the Marines, you thought they would have learned something...

Saxon wrote:

 Necros wrote:
I'm still waiting on my box of bugs from May :(

That is shocking!!! After the delays in the Marines, you thought they would have learned something...

I eventually the bugs, germans, and hardsuits will all ship at the same time

So unless there s a really good incentive, I'd avoid pre ordering

I can't help but be the impatient minis hoarder that I am, but being on their side of the fence I know it takes 100x longer than you planned to make anything worthwhile. Not really complaining .. just anxious

I'll probably do the hard suits as ogryns then. Planning out my high tech guard army.. sedition wars guys for the troops, these hard suits for ogryns, secret weapon's 6-wheeler for my tanks, a dreamforge plastic titan for a warhound, and micropanzer walkers as sentinels

 kenshin620 wrote:
I doubt they're bigger than terminators/ogryns so no on the sentinel
Looks kinda funny without arms

Looks great to me, though I'd probably mod the missle racks to ride right at the shoulder joint. Would make it rather like Wolf Bronski's Ground Assault E-Frame from Exo-Squad, one of my favorite cartoons as a kid.

At three months after the pre-order I got my shipping notice for the Bugs.

Now I must be crazy because I'm considering pre-order for the Germans now...

 Necros wrote:
I can't help but be the impatient minis hoarder that I am, but being on their side of the fence I know it takes 100x longer than you planned to make anything worthwhile. Not really complaining .. just anxious

Except that they've been doing this long enough to know that they haven't been hitting the deadlines. I'm sure a lot of us would prefer realistic deadlines that they actually hit to the missing every single deadline by months, which they were notorious for even when they ran Wargames Factory. They keep releasing all these teaser images and renders instead of any actual updates. If they want to keep people interested they'd better get the lead out (see what I did there?)

Especially since Dwartist just posted a link to the hardsuit that Antenociti is about to release and it looks oddly familiar somehow. If only I could put my finger on what it reminds me of...




*edit* Antenocities posted a few more pics on their blog showing off other angles and scale http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/news/2012/08/i-spy-with-my-little-eye-something-beginning-with-awesome/ More detail than the defiance games, but no ideas what the price will be. Looks like they'll be close enough that you could use Defiance hardsuits for grunts and antenocities resin hardsuits for specialist suits, but that kind of depends on the price each company makes them

Let me get this right?
Space germans... star ship troopers “bugs” and Flying Debris (Alex Iglesias surname who I’ve followed for years on deviantart) killer art work somehow gets caught in the mix of this mess of this garage DIY what not to do with your one shot at miniature war gaming hohumness. (yes I know former wargames factory blablabla)

Not trolling. Please don’t kill me but IMHO… WTF is this? 1989 CG zbrush amateur night miniparade classic 5000… done in a provocative yet Ral Parthaesque style not seen since my smashed all lead wizard from the apex of random sale bin purchases at my local…
My honest advice… Just stop…
Hire a better 3D render guy, rethink following the herd into the realm of Bugs, space germans and all female armored warriors… the market is flooded with this rubbish already it only stands out in the worst possible way. You can cast in plastic and this is you’re “A” game.

I’m just saying what the majority is thinking. Mantic already has a lock on GW copyright transgression as a business model… but this is like way worse… I honestly mean this is the true spirit of want another company to succeed and make great models for me to buy…

Take your winnings and leave Vegas, go home and rethink your whole concept from the ground up. Hire a better 3D guy,

If you’re going to use Flying Debris have him do the entire line and get his help on the base concept…That hard suit is super old piece you picked up somehow… let him help you carry that ball into the in zone, but for now take a Knee and figure out what you’re really doing this whole project is so very very all over the place it’s scary.

 5deadly wrote:

Hire a better 3D render guy

Not going to argue the rest as it is mostly subjective and I am happy to let you have an opinion contrary to mine but what exactly is bad with the Renders?

I am rather interested in the Hardsuits and they are renders at the moment. What should I be seeing and be disappointed with about them?

If we are talking about the previous renders, can you please let me know what parts you are particularly unimpressed with?

 Kalamadea wrote:

Especially since Dwartist just posted a link to the hardsuit that Antenociti is about to release and it looks oddly familiar somehow. If only I could put my finger on what it reminds me of...

Thanks for posting, I'll be buying a few of these!

 5deadly wrote:
...Hire a better 3D render guy, rethink following the herd into the realm of Bugs, space germans and all female armored warriors… the market is flooded with this rubbish already it only stands out in the worst possible way.

The market is flooded with female warriors? Really?

If you’re going to use Flying Debris have him do the entire line and get his help on the base concept…

This - or something like this - I'd agree with. Their models would be far better if they stuck to sculpting instead of trying to "fix" the designs.

Wow. This render is please don't bypass the swear filter, it's there for good reasons. Thanks. Reds8n awesome.



I'm not sure what 5deadly is talking about. And if Mantic really was breaking copyright law, GW would have sought redress through the courts by now. The fact is, GW's stuff is derivative rehashes of ideas they can't own.

"The market is flooded with female warriors? Really?"
No..... but is is flooded with rubbish... look at tabletopgamingnews. You'll see it Everywhere ; )

"I'm not sure what 5deadly is talking about. A Mantic really was breaking copyright law, GW have sought redress through the courts by n fact is, GW's stuff is derivative rehashes of id can't own."

Talking about a market saturated with weak product that's all.
I didn't say Mantic broke any copyright laws.... they just happen to make everything GW makes now including a scifi version of blood bowl.
Which trying to succeed in a business by blatantly copying is sad.
At least this game only steals poorly from starship troopers and lightly copies from urban mammoth... trust me guys I know my stuff.

Flooded with rubbish? Well you know what they say about one man's trash...

Truth is there's a market for these figures. Some people only want the best and are willing to pay top dollar for it, and good for them! But, some people just want lots and lots of decent looking figs on the table, "good enough" is exactly what they want. Or they don't have the kind of disposable income to make every model they play with the absolute best available, especially for what might be just a small side game for them. Mantic and Defiance and Wargames Factory produce figs for those 2nd type of gamers, and fulfill that role really well. Mantic is as big as they are BECAUSE there is such a market for cheaper versions fo WHFB figures that are "good enough". Avatars of War got off the ground for doing the opposite, making not-GW heroes that were often BETTER than the GW versions. There's ALWAYS room for more of the same, especially when it's more of almost the same, but different enough it fills a niche that may be missing. And the worst that happens? Few people buy it and it goes away, but it was still around for those that liked it. Better than simply not having it available, better by a mile.

As for simply copying stuff, from your avatar I'm guessing you like Infinity. Infinity is just stealing from Appleseed and Ghost in the Shell, by your definition. Some people want that, they want generic not-starship troopers and they want not-arachnids and they want not-maschinenkrieger hardsuits, just as they want not-landmates and not-tachikomas. I certainly do. I want all of that and as much as I can cram in my closet! And the stuff I don't like? I don't buy it. Because I don't like it. And if it's too good in game to skip, I use a differant model that suits my fancy. Because I like it.

You don't like these plastics, that's totally cool. If it's not your thing then it's not your thing. But there's certainly a market for it, and some people are not as picky about their models, and some people simply have differing tastes and think these look pretty darn good, in fact. A good paintjob will make a so-so model look amazing, and a poor paintjob will ruin the best of sculpts, and I'll take a so-so model that suits my fancy over an amazing model that doesn't match my taste any day of the week.

 5deadly wrote:

I didn't say Mantic broke any copyright laws.... they just happen to make everything GW makes now including a scifi version of blood bowl.

GW doesn't make a sci-fi version of Bloodbowl. Just sayin'...

 5deadly wrote:

Which trying to succeed in a business by blatantly copying is sad.

Thousands of successful businesses would like to disagree with you.

 5deadly wrote:

At least this game only steals poorly from starship troopers and lightly copies from urban mammoth...

I would love to see some breakdown of what they took from Urban Mammoth.

 5deadly wrote:

trust me guys I know my stuff.

I can't believe you actually wrote that...

~Eric

Kalamadea has it spot on.

I'm actually very interested in the Germans because of their not-Starship troopers look. I want to use them as rebels in my Sedition wars games, as I think they will fit the aesthetic very well.

I'd like to see these when they come out.

I might skip on the germans, focus on the dreamforge kickstarter and get eisenkern for my stormtroopers instead. They still look good, methinks.

I don't understand the aggravation, 5deadly. There are many things I don't fancy, or don't agree with. I just don't voice it on an internet forum. There is only so little time in a day to spend some of it doing this.

I'm sure you must have a top notch miniature to paint instead, right? Wow us with that, rather than the Debbie downer attitude.

I think I will mount the right arm on the left side so that the missile pod is below the shoulder. I realise that their current position may be more functional, but this is a sci fi setting, so I am not concerned about function. Right now it just looks like mickey mouse.

That missle launcher hardsuit looks like a baby madcat, and I'm not exactly sure if that's a compliment or an insult...

As for the Germans, I really hope they can break the delay curse. I don't have cash to preorder yet, and I still haven't got my gunny, so hopefully I'll see him soon in the mail. When I have $30 to spare I'll probably throw in an order for ze germans as I need some good stormtroopers, but until then, I'll be waiting, and watching.

I have an opinion…
you don’t have to like it…
I’ve been doing this hobby for over 20 years…
I watched em’ come, I watched em’ go…
Everyone borrows from some other source
G.W. mainly Tolkien.
Privateer press… Little D&D but pretty unless I’m missing something original
Corvus mainly Masamune Shirow
Mantic mainly G.W. ; P
I do know my stuff. You don’t have to trust me. If you like this product buy this product, If this is what you want on the table, poorly made models… screaming cheap and I can’t afford the hobby..cool Once some of that sweet custom cupcake frosting paint job is applied it wont matter much…
it is a global recession, not everyone can afford well made models or really cares once they Elmer glue the model and Spatula on their paint. Their ready to roll some dice.
I want to see more refined products in a grossly over saturated market. It’s fine because when the stars of the industry they do shine very bright over all the just plain Ugly…
You want drink a Light Brewski, I want to drink a well-aged scotch.
I will not apologized for having a more refined taste.

 5deadly wrote:
I have an opinion…
you don’t have to like it…
I’ve been doing this hobby for over 20 years…
I watched em’ come, I watched em’ go…
Everyone borrows from some other source
G.W. mainly Tolkien.
Privateer press… Little D&D but pretty unless I’m missing something original
Corvus mainly Masamune Shirow
Mantic mainly G.W. ; P
I do know my stuff. You don’t have to trust me. If you like this product buy this product, If this is what you want on the table, poorly made models… screaming cheap and I can’t afford the hobby..cool Once some of that sweet custom cupcake frosting paint job is applied it wont matter much…
it is a global recession, not everyone can afford well made models or really cares once they Elmer glue the model and Spatula on their paint. Their ready to roll some dice.
I want to see more refined products in a grossly over saturated market. It’s fine because when the stars of the industry they do shine very bright over all the just plain Ugly…
You want drink a Light Brewski, I want to drink a well-aged scotch.
I will not apologized for having a more refined taste.

With all do respect, what do you consider "good" models? GW models are not all that great when you break them down. They have good features, but are not the end all be all of modeling. I like Ironwind metals models, but they have issues with organic surfaces, especially faces and hands, but their machinery is nice. These models are built to a appease a different taste in modelling. Personally I think they are very good, especially when you consider they are newer at the task than other companies. Look at GW's early stuff, most of that would make good paper weights, and definitely not display models. Don't even try to tell me that Marine Sculpts are good. That is the poorest example of proportions in the modeling industry. What I have seen of the Infinity models, they appear nice at first glance, but have some issue with arm lengths, and face proportions. Overall I think Infinity is better than GW model wise. The Hardsuit model looks cool, and as a combat machine it's lack of extraneous details is more plausible than the bits and bobs randomly applied to GW's combat machines. Really, banners, flags, spikes with no purpose, random skulls.........

I'm big fan of pre rubber Rackham. If that effort would have been spent making styrene kits its would've been so much different.
GW offers great flexibility in modeling but does have a touch of proportion issue.
Infinty is becoming better every release but the earliest models are very meh.
Dust has some great models and ideas but suffers from the same thing Rackham suffered from.

The hardsuit does look cool. But its a single model. Not sure if Alex did the concept for those rocket pods or not.
I do think defiant could produce a better product.
Does space Germans mean space Nazi...? Why bugs? Why another. Stab at a winged women in armor.
Was anything learned from the time at wargames factory? I understand companies in their infancy but that doesn't mean the quality needs to go down. Heroic proportions dynamic model would go far.
Like I said in my first post. You can cast in plastics why not make the most awesome kits ever? Malifaux now plastic looks good to. That's another company workin hard to break the mold.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
That missle launcher hardsuit looks like a baby madcat, and I'm not exactly sure if that's a compliment or an insult...

As for the Germans, I really hope they can break the delay curse. I don't have cash to preorder yet, and I still haven't got my gunny, so hopefully I'll see him soon in the mail. When I have $30 to spare I'll probably throw in an order for ze germans as I need some good stormtroopers, but until then, I'll be waiting, and watching.

You haven't received the gunny, either? I thought it was just me.

Both look cool. The top one reminds me of the old robotech Spartan destroid (don't remember what its battletech version was called) but I think I'd prefer the arms to come with it and to model the pods a bit higher and back to accomodate arms. As for the lower one, the only thing I'd improve on is the look of the weapons where they join the arms. The look like they're attached to the hand instead of carried and I think I'd prefer if they were forearm mounted or replaced the forearm. Either way, good progress on both.

 5deadly wrote:
I have an opinion…
you don’t have to like it…
I’ve been doing this hobby for over 20 years…
I watched em’ come, I watched em’ go…
Everyone borrows from some other source
G.W. mainly Tolkien.
Privateer press… Little D&D but pretty unless I’m missing something original
Corvus mainly Masamune Shirow
Mantic mainly G.W. ; P
I do know my stuff. You don’t have to trust me. If you like this product buy this product, If this is what you want on the table, poorly made models… screaming cheap and I can’t afford the hobby..cool Once some of that sweet custom cupcake frosting paint job is applied it wont matter much…
it is a global recession, not everyone can afford well made models or really cares once they Elmer glue the model and Spatula on their paint. Their ready to roll some dice.
I want to see more refined products in a grossly over saturated market. It’s fine because when the stars of the industry they do shine very bright over all the just plain Ugly…
You want drink a Light Brewski, I want to drink a well-aged scotch.
I will not apologized for having a more refined taste.

Great, you made your point, but made it in a very unpolite way. Maybe your 20 years on the hobby are throwing you in a Hubris... You collected Rogue Trader era? How in the hell you could buy those ugly things? You cold have a polite observation about the way you dont like those, instead, you said "the market is flooded with that type of crap". And now you start to tell us to respect your oppinion?

Im not a scotch specialist so, i will take beer as an example: i will not buy ultra cheap beer (they will just give head aches on the day after), but i will not buy ultra refined costly beers (in the end i just want to get drunk). I will get anything in the midground who pleases me, and no one will dare to tell me im wrong, because it is my money, my taste and my liver beying wasted there...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just to end it: you know, i think the only bad side of this hobby are those people who keep trying to tell everyone wich is the "right way" to enjoy the hobby.

For the record, the Antenociti powered armor and the Defiance Games hardsuit are by the same artist, Alex Iglesias. Also, my Bugs (finally) shipped. If you're bored, here's the USPS tracking number: 9405510200881465470784. Feel the thrill (or not) is they wing their way from Boston to New Mexico! I'll have pictures and a description of the box contents up the day they arrive (barring insanity).

Honestly, I prefer the look of the Defiance hardsuit more. It's bulkier, more powerful looking. And I love the manipulator arms.

I used to love the metal Confrontation models (still have a bunch of them unpainted) The Selsyms were very thin, beautiful sculpts, the Echahim are still some of my favourites. But the fantasy trope has worn me so thin, I can't stand it anymore. I think that's also why I never played Librarians in 40K... I like my space opera a bit more techno, less magical.

I think the Battletech equivalent was called the Longbow. It was a bit of a one-trick pony though. I personally would put the rocket pods flush with the suit's hardpoint, with the sensor gizmo on top.

Please, Defiance, I want to give you money. So give me my female UAMC marines and hardsuits, so we can both be happy. :-)

I just want those hardsuits. I have no idea what I`d use them for, but they just look so cool. Not a fan of the missile arms, but I`m sure there`s a way to work around that.

Lol polite....on dakka....
Dakkadakka.com....

Who was I rude too besides defiant?

Sure....

Enjoy it how you enjoy it. I'm not telling any one don't buy this product or in that respect don't support defiant. My comments are directed toward defiant, I know they quietly hang on every word posted here and the other forums.
and yes in the rogue trader era those were the best models with the best tech of the era and that's my point why are backward steps being taken in a forward moving business (hence the Ral Parthia comment)
And I don't care if my opinion is respected. I'm posting on dakka you do know dakka has a overall hostile nature right. I didn't ask for respect did I?

I said I have an opinion. Because my opinion isn't coated n sugary goodness and presented in a palatable way for you its somehow carries less validity.
So someone can trash a new GW release. With noting but cheers for defying Goliath but if I post a smash mouth opinion against a fledgling company trying to get their attention and say what a 100 people won't I'm the bad Guy...
sure your right.
There's an ignore button you don't like whatI have to say use it. Defiant won't they needed to hear this.

Quick photoshop, I think I'll be mounting the missiles underslung, maybe add something from the bitz box to cover the shoulders

It's amazing how much more awesome looking something can be if you turn it upside down

I know, right?! And all you'll have to do is mount the left arm on the right and the right arm on the left, not even really a conversion.

- Removed by insaniak -

 Kalamadea wrote:
Quick photoshop, I think I'll be mounting the missiles underslung, maybe add something from the bitz box to cover the shoulders

Much better



But I raise you!

Yeah even though the other models don't appeal to me. The hard suits kinda work on a soft spot I have for MA.K. it does seem as if the 3D Guy did a good job. Now the test is if its modular. Might be a nice piece. I concede that.

I have to say I like the Defiance hard suits compared to the Antenocities one. Just something about a big egg on legs I love. And placing the arms as underslung makes a lot more sense, especially since they could at least allow a better center of gravity, as well as letting them push against them in case it falls over.

Thinking the new Mantic Enforcers plus these hardsuits would make good 40k Marines. Enforcers for the regular marines, hardsuits for the terminators.

I'm not surprised the same artist did both the Antenociti and Defiance hardsuits. They both look great. It also looks like there's a lot of conversion potential given those missile pod photoshops.

My local store can get Defiance stuff in, so I won't be preordering anything. If I wanted to have a huge wait between paying for the product and getting it, I'd find a Kickstarter to support.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 Kalamadea wrote:
Quick photoshop, I think I'll be mounting the missiles underslung, maybe add something from the bitz box to cover the shoulders

Much better



But I raise you!

That my friend is excellent,

You just sold some hard suits as soon as defiance has them listed
(despite my fears of a long wait)

grab yourself some comission from them LOL

Ehhh I think the paintjob they did on the worms could be better. They look way too much like a toy you get as some toy store




When I think of man eating worms, the reaper one comes to mind

I know it would be extra gross, but I'd paint those worms mostly in different flesh tones. The teeth and gums already have an "eww" factor, but I don't think the rest of the body works in superman colours.

The worms don't really interest me anywhere near as much as the other models do. I think it has more to do with their design than the sculpting quality. If I was doing some RPG or convention games I'd probably grab a few though; they'd be fun random baddies.

Frozen wastes: If you're looking for a kickstarter to support... mayhaps the Dreamforge one might be to your liking?

I think the Antenociti hardsuits have too much going on, the arms are super long and the cockpit looks smaller to my eye, so I give my definitive vote to Defiance. If they can put them on the market.

Also, wouldn't standing up in such a position require a skeleton and a lot of muscular effort, which would be premium resources that a worm doesn't have? So are they aleutian swamp snakes?

The hardsuits look great- underslung missiles is definitely the way to go. Quad missiles is AWESOME!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kalamadea wrote:
Quick photoshop, I think I'll be mounting the missiles underslung, maybe add something from the bitz box to cover the shoulders

That looks excellent!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
[q

That looks excellent!

They will look great alongside the new mantic enforcers.

 Kalamadea wrote:
Quick photoshop, I think I'll be mounting the missiles underslung, maybe add something from the bitz box to cover the shoulders

Now that looks alot better, good enough that I wouldn't add the traditional arms to the model that I mentioned earlier.

brettz123 wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
[q

That looks excellent!

I like the hardsuits. Probably looks good next to space marines.

These will probably also work great as light walkers in 15mm. The bugs turned out really good for 15mm scale as well.

 frozenwastes wrote:
These will probably also work great as light walkers in 15mm. The bugs turned out really good for 15mm scale as well.

I think it would work better as a 15mm scale walker. The main problem with the model is that an arms-in-torso mech that small is frankly stupid. Scale it up to the point where it's got room for a proper cockpit and the control system becomes both more effective and more necessary.

I have removed all of the off-topic nonsense from the last couple of pages. Please keep it civil from here on in, folks.

Wait looking at Alex's 2D asset the hard suit had an. LMG looking gun on one side is that gone now? These hard suits mixed with the killer minis from Dreamforge might make a cool force...

For those in the know I wonder if Alex's "Fiddler" will make it into the line up....

This would be a major seller
http://flyingdebris.deviantart.com/art/The-Fiddler-188382821

 5deadly wrote:
Wait looking at Alex's 2D asset the hard suit had an. LMG looking gun on one side is that gone now? These hard suits mixed with the killer minis from Dreamforge might make a cool force...

For those in the know I wonder if Alex's "Fiddler" will make it into the line up....

This would be a major seller
http://flyingdebris.deviantart.com/art/The-Fiddler-188382821

That looks suspiciously similar to the concept art for the upcoming German walker...

Not so surprising, Defiance has been using that artist for their concept art. The UAMC hardsuit is directly based on his work. Not a fan of the manipulator arms hanging off the front, but the rest of it looks awesome. If that released as a kit it would be easy enough to simply remove them.

You got a link to the actual concept art for the german walker?

@ 5deadly:

I was not in love with the Dreamforge Heavy Infantry, but if these hardsuits can take their place, that would indeed be solid.

I'd like to see that German walker too.

If these MA.K. looking walkers OPENED UP (pay attention to me being nice with it defiance)
So i could show the pilot, and customize the hatch And had multiple leg poses that would be a huge ++.

But I'm still wondering about the original gun arm... please don't tell me that's out.... that would suck.

Playing nice as I can...

 Kalamadea wrote:
Not so surprising, Defiance has been using that artist for their concept art. The UAMC hardsuit is directly based on his work. Not a fan of the manipulator arms hanging off the front, but the rest of it looks awesome. If that released as a kit it would be easy enough to simply remove them.

You got a link to the actual concept art for the german walker?

Basically all the good and none of the bad with those wierd manipulator arms. Reminds me of a battlemech from mechwarrior except much smaller. Only a rough sketch at this point, but I like the idea they've got for it. Looks somewhat practical unlike all the japenese mecha type stuff that tends to pop up in mini lines these days. It's also why I like the DFG hardsuit much better than the other one that was posted. The DFG one looks more like something a real military would field. That other one just looked wierd with all the extra junk and wierd armor lines on it.

http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/forum/german-panzergrenadiers-core-force/9301-they-call-this-an-qegg-breakerq-in-german--

Rough sketch, but I like it. I always liked the anime Gasaraki for that reason, it's a super realistic protrayal of how mecha would operate in a near-future setting. I mena, it's mecha, so there's quite a bit of suspension of disbelief required, but they really tried hard to make it feel like it's something that you could see on the battlefield. Smaller, perhaps 12 foot tall mech suits meant for urban combat operating in small units monitored and coordinated by a dedicated, mobile command vehicle a few miles behind the lines. It takes a major turn into the supernatural and metaphysical like halfway through the series unfortunately, but the early episodes are awesome and the mecha designs are fantastic. They've got some great kits out in 1/35th too

The German walker does look like the Fiddler, doesn't it? I actually hope they put in the manipulators -- they'd be wonderful bits for robots and cyborgs.


As a side note: did anyone catch the hardsuit photoshop on /tg/ with EIGHT missile launchers?! So much dakka, so very much . . .

 Kalamadea wrote:
Rough sketch, but I like it. I always liked the anime Gasaraki for that reason, it's a super realistic protrayal of how mecha would operate in a near-future setting. I mena, it's mecha, so there's quite a bit of suspension of disbelief required, but they really tried hard to make it feel like it's something that you could see on the battlefield. Smaller, perhaps 12 foot tall mech suits meant for urban combat operating in small units monitored and coordinated by a dedicated, mobile command vehicle a few miles behind the lines. It takes a major turn into the supernatural and metaphysical like halfway through the series unfortunately, but the early episodes are awesome and the mecha designs are fantastic. They've got some great kits out in 1/35th too

Spoiler:

The Gasaraki mech kits work great for 28mm also and as a bonus they are completely articulated! Here's mine from my Ventaran/Khiff army (armored aliens and cloaked dogmen). I actually intend for my hardsuits to be part of this force. I think the styling of the two is very complimentary.

That hard suit is indeed sweet... and mixing it with models from Dreamforge actually sounds like a pretty solid idea!

What is the height of it, and is there any scale shot of that render next to a ruler/known model/etc?

The grenadier torsos and legs don't fit together well. The torso appears thinner than the top of the legs giving a cup sitting on a saucer look. Might mix well with guard though.

The mech and figs are packed away right now, but if the GW building they are in front of doesn't give enough scale, I do know that the Ventauran miniature it is standing next to is 27mm from sole of boot to eye line making him just a smidge shorter than a cadian. If hit helps, here you can see Ventaurans on either side flanking a GW Cadian and a GZG trooper.

5deadly: so far as we can tell, the missile pods are for one hardsuit, the rest of them have twin bread-knives and gun arms.

Not liking the bread knives.

Did anyone receive his gunny yet?

I opened my box of UAMC on the day the gunny coupon was expiring. :-(

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I opened my box of UAMC on the day the gunny coupon was expiring. :-(

You couldnt send an email/photo or anything to get yours?

The coupon said to enter the code online with my next purchase. Since I am waiting for the female marines to come out to finalize my army (I want to save on shipping), there was no way for me to get it.

I guess I'll get him when/if he becomes available through the store.

My Bugs arrived yesterday. I spent some time assembling a few (and screwing up the leg assembly). A nice bonus was the inclusion of two Germans with my Bugs! Anyway, have some pics; I'll post more, including scale comparisons, tomorrow.







Anyway, a mini review:

The plastic is good. It cuts and carves just like the standard high-impact polystyrene normally used for "hard plastic" minis. My Bugs came in a variety of shades of gray; I assume they were using different batches of plastic with different amounts of dye. It feels a little more flexible than regular HIPS, and springy; it bends back into shape well. I was more interested in assembling, though.

Assembly is easy. Each Bug is 9 pieces: 4 legs, two arms, two body pieces, and the head. The pieces are attached to tabs with thick connections that aren't too much of a problem in the context of the Bugs -- the recessed attachment points hide any irregular cuts. The same (mostly) goes for the head, but any detail on the top of the head is pretty much lost. Assembly is somewhat complicated: the legs were in two bags, one with long, spindly legs and the other with more compact legs; the latter are necessary to get the Bug to fit on its base. I didn't notice and used the longer legs, meaning I'm going to have to go back and do a fair bit of work to actually based most of my Bugs. Also, if you didn't already know which was which, it's not easy to tell which pieces are arms and legs. On the other hand, they're actually interchangeable.

Leg/arm issues aside, the Bugs are a piece of cake to assemble. My advice is to not think too hard about leg assembly, and snip the tips of the feet to give a little extra surface area for attachment. As long as you have three legs on the base, it'll be fine. By the way, use superglue: polystyrene glue will not work on these. Also, DO NOT twist the legs off the tabs; they'll snap off past the ball joint, ruining the leg.

The one real problem with the kit (from my POV) is the bases. I'll let the pictures speak for me:




Many of the bases are warped like this, and others are pitted. Most seem to have been twisted off, leaving a chunk taken out of the base. All are concave in the center. The bases aren't worthless (to me, at least) but they don't look very good, either. The German bases are much, much better, but still concave at the center. This may have been a problem with the specific batch and/or rushed packaging.

The Germans I received were a pre-order bonus, cast from the test molds rather than the finals, so I can't speak for the finished product, but mine had a few small casting flaws and smudged details, particularly on one of the forearms. Also, the guns are slightly warped. It should be easily correctable with some hot water.

Like I said, I'll take more pictures and post them tomorrow, along with a completed Bug swarm.

Wow,

It's good to see some 'consumer' bugs at last.

The surface of the Bugs looks quite rough/textured can you comment on that ?

And the bases do look poor, are these the 'limited' resin bases given as a freebie to prorders, or are they the 'standard' ones ?

Those are the standard bases. The limited editions ones seemed a bit better, though I wasn't paying as much attention to them. The rough texture on the Bugs is intentional. The casting for the Bugs was generally pretty good though, I now recall, there was some miss-alignment on a few pieces from mold slippage. However, as this was only a problem with a few pieces, I suspect it was due to faults in whoever was doing the casting, rather than a problem with the mold itself.

If I can get my camera and/or computer software to cooperate, I will try to get closeups tonight.

I wouldn't buy those bugs or germans after seeing those photos. I also wouldn't accept those bases and would be sending them back and asking for replacements or a refund.

Warped BASES? Huh well thats a first

Really surprised DFG didn't catch those. I would think out of everything, those bases would've raised a red flag. Might want to contact them and see if they can get you some new ones. That's not good if they're warping that badly. That's almost like a broken mold.

Hopefully the Germans are good. I'm waiting on preordering until I can see a few more pics of them, but I hope they don't suffer the same problems some of these bugs have...

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Hopefully the Germans are good. I'm waiting on preordering until I can see a few more pics of them, but I hope they don't suffer the same problems some of these bugs have...

Regardless of the casting quality, going by the one shown here I'm not impressed. Proportions are all over the place.


I do like the bug though.

XENO,
Could you share a shot of the trooper from the back?

 insaniak wrote:

Regardless of the casting quality, going by the one shown here I'm not impressed. Proportions are all over the place.
.

Unfortunately, I agree. I realize that it is probably "realistic", but the crotch armor does seem a bit diaperish. I will withhold final judgement until I see painted examples, but it's not getting me just yet.

Still looking forward to the hardsuits though as honestly they are the unit that I have most immediate use for.

I shot Ed @ Defiance a PM about the miscast bases and this was his reply:

Ed wrote:
I know they are going to have some problems and the bases were the ones I saw going in and we changed that system now so I'll get with Tony and make sure we solve it. The german base problem is fixed so we might as well catch this now. I'll build a new mold with new base design. Thanks!

You can post my answer if you want. I did not know this was happening so yeah, it can be fixed.

It's a little weird that they would go to the trouble of casting their own bases when they can be sourced so cheaply anyway. The flat-bottomed bases would be another turn-off for me even if they weren't miscast... It's the same problem I have with most of the resin bases on the market: they are horrible to try to stand on terrain.

liking the germans a bit more with the shots. Gut reaction of it wasn't very good. Not a fan of the hardsuits, but I seem to have missed whatever it reminded people of.

It's been a few days, I haven't been on Facebook or DG's website, have there been any updates on official street dates for the PZG or a hardsuit casting test?

I can't wait to be over those swamp worms and onto humans again.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
It's been a few days, I haven't been on Facebook or DG's website, have there been any updates on official street dates for the PZG or a hardsuit casting test?

I can't wait to be over those swamp worms and onto humans again.

Nothing yet. All quiet on the eastern front. Hoping they get those base issues figured out, I really REALLY want to use those panzergrenadiers as stormtroopers...

I wanted to at first as well, but I decided to throw myself into DFG's KS instead. I figure I only needed 2 full squads, plus options for a few heavy weapons if I decide to run them as veterans, plus the game has potential, I think.

The fact that the eisenkern will be taller than my UAMC marines force will drive the point home that they are the ubermench on the team.

You should join us. We have big robots... and cookies.

Kroothawk wrote:I think it is obvious that this specific model was the "inspiration" for the Defiance games model. Maschinenkrieger is for alternative WW2 design what Star Wars is for SciFi.

Why the scare quotes?

robertsjf wrote:Finally! Power Armor/Exosuits for Gamers! None of that Adonis Sculpted Breastplate (with nipples) here!

Yeah, baby!

Xeno wrote:For those who wanted to weapons separate, looks like you just got your wish!

I don't know what's going on with the muzzle of the LMG, the ladder sight on the grenade launcher (which still looks like a shotgun) is still on the wrong end, and the ATGM has a too-large foregrip and waaaaay too-small sight...but on the whole they look pretty good. Not as nice as the concept art but, hey, Defiance Games. Since the announcement of the Dreamforge plastics I've no more interest in picking up any of Defiance's germans but bits like the heavy weapons should still prove useful for proxying.

Mathieu Raymond wrote:Also, wouldn't standing up in such a position require a skeleton and a lot of muscular effort, which would be premium resources that a worm doesn't have? So are they aleutian swamp snakes?

Even snakes can only raise up ⅓ of their length IIRC. They probably do have an endoskeleton but damn if that ain't some impressive alien musculature. And some weak sculpting. Not to mention the Reaper worms are cheaper. Bit of a missed opportunity. Anyway, the colonists probably just went "Long, lumpy and slimy? Worm. Where's me shotgun?"

5deadly wrote:Wait looking at Alex's 2D asset the hard suit had an. LMG looking gun on one side is that gone now?

IIRC the weapons now attach to the underside of the forearms instead of replacing them. Tim am play designers.

I was interested in the bugs, but the casting on them looks terrible, intentional or not.

Hoping they sort out the obvious issues, but looks like they're consigned to the do not buy pile now.

 Earthbeard wrote:
I was interested in the bugs, but the casting on them looks terrible, intentional or not.

Other than the bases, the casting looks pretty clean. Is it maybe just the colouring of the plastic that's putting you off?

I'd bet it's the texturing which I wasn't expecting either,

I was looking for smooth shiny bug exoskeletons like the art seemed to show, but they've gone for a rough surface texture. Not nesessarily bad buy not expected

Could be good but I'll need to rethink the painting I was planning

I cracked up the other box of Bugs and, lo and behold, the bases were just fine! Well, one was a bit thin, but otherwise they were pretty good. No warped, no gaps, no unevenness. Quite acceptable.

Anyway, I've got a lot of stuff to do, unfortunately, but I'll work on getting those pictures taken and posted tomorrow; Physics homework

 Xeno wrote:
The same (mostly) goes for the head, but any detail on the top of the head is pretty much lost.

Wait, are you saying they sprued the torso+head at the top of the head?!?

Still waiting on my bugs :( but I preordered mine kinda late so I guess they're still in the pipeline

Hey xeno, any chance you could get us more pics of the Germans? I'm really hoping to look at them more before the preorder, as I need to know whether to buy them or the dreamforge guys.

@MrMoustaffa: Even if you miss the preorder, you'll only be missing Fritz the heavy-gunner, right?

Although we don't know when we'll see the Eisenkern hit stores, and at which price point, so I see your dilemma.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
@MrMoustaffa: Even if you miss the preorder, you'll only be missing Fritz the heavy-gunner, right?

Although we don't know when we'll see the Eisenkern hit stores, and at which price point, so I see your dilemma.

I thought the Eisenkarn start shipping once the preorder is done, and they'll probably be cheaper through the kickstarter than they'll be in stores.

This means they're both coming out at the same time, and with my limited cash at the moment I can only pick one. Add in that they're roughly the same price for what you're getting, and it's a tough choice.

Luckily, I don't need a ton for stormtroopers, so I'll only need 2 boxes tops...

And they mostly have the same equipment in the box, too.

Eisenkern ships in mid-november, so you'll be painting into the holidays if DFG respects their schedule. If you need them ASAP, Defiance might be a better way to go.

Eisenkern will end up being more expensive, I think. Around 40$ a box of 20, or even more.

Eisenkern may be more expensive,

but the free accessory sprue will give far more options for tricking them out than DFG marines though

Plus you'll be able to pick up da gubbinz from the Defiance germans separately - weapons and IIRC heads have been confirmed so far - if any catch your eye since they're not on big sprues.

true that, so it is still a toss up between the two. I guess it comes down to taste.

Come on, Tony, September is nigh upon us, we want production tests of hardsuits and FEMALE MARINES!!!

So, at long last here's the full review:

Defiance Games Bugs
MSRP: $29;95

Disclaimer: I am a playtester for Defiance Games' Alien War rule-set.

Box Contents

All the parts came separated by type in seven baggies: two each for the legs, one for the arms, one for the heads, one for each body segment, and one for the bases. The parts are mounted on tabs and are easy to snip off with minimal flash -- plus, the parts are mounted in such a way that, usually, the separation point won't be visible (inside of an arm socket, underneath the bug's hood, etc). Additionally, the set comes with several "eggs" (5 in the first box, two in the second). These are very low detail.



The parts are generally cast well, more so in my second box than the first. There is some flash and and a few legs show mold misalignment (ironically, this works on their favor -- the legs have a two-clawed appearance). The first box was significantly worse about this, while the second was barely noticeable.



Arms in three poses. Since there are no labels or instructions, I only knew there were the arms based on illustrations and previous experience.



Legs. Notice how similar they are to the arms at a casual glance? Also, the leg on the right is noticeably longer than the other two if you do a side-by-side comparison.



Heads. These have the only really problematic attachment point: the head attaches at its crown, meaning you'll have to carve the plastic into shape. Luckily, this is normally covered partially by the top protrusion on the Bug's torso.




Torsos. The Bug torso comes in two pieces are attach by a socket joint. A few of the upper torsos had slight miscasts at the base, but, after assembly this is not visible. I should mention that the vast majority of the torsos were cast just fine. There are noticeably mold lines on some of the torsos, but nothing particularly egregious. The gap you notice above is from me not trimming the piece properly -- a couple seconds with a hobby knife evens that up nicely.




Bases. While the rest of the pieces are generally good the bases are mostly poor. Several of the bases in the first box were badly miscast and damaged when being removed from the tabs. The ones in this batch aren't as bad but, from the selection above (picked randomly from a pile of 30) the results aren't great.




Those of us who pre-ordered received a pare of minis from the upcoming Panzergrenadiers set. These are from the pre-production mold, not the final, and, as I understand it, the small errors have been corrected. This include some smudged details on the shoulders and a slightly concavity in the bases. You'll note that the German bases are much better than the Bug bases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assembly

The Bugs are fast to put together. The arm and leg holes are ball-and-socket with nice, deep sockets. A little drop of super glue is fine. You will need to use super glue: the plastic used by the Defiance Games Bugs and Germans (and all other upcoming products) is not high-impact polystyrene (the stuff used for most plastic minis) and so standard polystyrene glue will not work. Defiance chose this plastic because it can be spin cast, and the molds and machinery needed are much less expensive. Differences in chemical formula do not translate into poor material, though. The plastic a little softer and more flexible than HIPS, but cuts and carves very well; modding should be simple. I plan to convert a few into "tech bugs" armed with energy weapons and suspect the assembly will be a dream. By the way, soft plastic does not translate into "bends easily" -- these things seem very sturdy.

An important note: DO NOT TWIST OFF THE LIMBS! They will snap on the thin part above the ball, rather than where it connects to the tab.

With five different legs, three different arms, three heads, and bal joints you can get a lot of pose variation. However, you need to take care when positioning the legs lest the Bug not fit on the bases (15mm users probably won't need them anyway since Bugs on four legs should be plenty stable sans base. I didn't pay attention and will have to snip and re-glue the legs of about a 3rd of the Bugs I assembled so far.






The last picture, aside from being hilarious (I can't look at it without hearing thumping techno and imaging strobe lights) also gives you a good look at the texture of the back plates. They intentionally have an uneven striated texture that, unfortunately, will probably vanish under my poor painting skills.

Also, the warped base is from the first box; the bases from the second box are just fine and, ideally, I should have showed off a mini on one of them, but I ran out of glue (pathetic, I know).


And, lastly, a group shot of all three of Defiance's current models:



I really should paint up my Marines . . .

Am I anthropocentric? I just can't get excited about the Bugs, even though I would most definitely like to fight them.

I'm pretty excited about them, but I don't need that many. Want to split a box?

So, that aside, have some scale comparisons:



Defiance's line actually matches pretty good to Warlord's WWII offerings. If you want to pit Tommies, Yanks, or Jerries against flesh-ripping horrors, you're good to go. Plus, the bits should work well together.






Is is just me, or does the Bug on top of the Chimera look like he's having a hell of a time? I like 'im. I think I'll call him George.




Compared to some of Mantic's sci-fi offerings and Wargames Factory Shock Trooper.


Lastly, a nod to the 15mm fans out there:


From left-to-right: Rebel Minis Post-Apoc Survivor, Eureka Sci-fi German, Khurasan Mid-tech Insurgent, Rebel Minis US Infantry, Khurasan Mekanoid, and Rebel Minis Titan Marine.


With Khurasan Bugs


With Khurasan Neo-Sov powered armor and Corsai and Rebel Minis Titan HAMR.




Final Thoughts:

Despite its flaws (mainly the bases) I like this set. Of course, I'm biased, but I do think they stand up well, especially for the price. The casting is a little uneven (as is the color -- they apparently used several different shades of gray during manufacturing runs) but I think the sculpts are good and, along with the variety of parts, lend themselves well to creating a flailing, ripping, screeching mass of chitinous horrors. They are easy enough to put together and lend themselves well to speed painting. Priming, base-coating, and dry-brushing should produce an acceptable force in a relatively short time.

As to the Germans, I like the sculpts enough that I have decided to pre-order a box. Maybe they'll ship on time . . .

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I'm pretty excited about them, but I don't need that many. Want to split a box?

I have to prioritize, unfortunately. See the sig? A significant chunk of my remaining mini budget for the year is going there.

Looking at that dwarf with a gun... squats have got to make a comeback in the 40K universe. These would be awesome!

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Am I anthropocentric? I just can't get excited about the Bugs, even though I would most definitely like to fight them.

That's perfectly reasonable. They are, after all, only animals. Like zombies, they only work on a single level: as a tactical hazard.

And that is why I want to create fluff for DreamForge. I do NOT want one of their major factions to only be a tactical hazard.

Those bugs would have been perfect for a board game à la Zombies! you're right.

Eh, wait until they make the big Bugs and the gun Bugs . . .

Xeno wrote:Legs. Notice how similar they are to the arms at a casual glance?

That's not surprising given it's the same photo.

I really should paint up my Marines . . .

Shush, you. Primed is painted, dammit!



Whelp, that would be the final nail in the panzies coffin if they still needed one. Soft detail, horrible shoulder and waist joins, magic floating backpacks, and it looks like someone forgot to account for shrinkage when printing the masters as they're even smaller than the marines. Useful for making Space Marines look fluffy-bigger next to allied IG, I suppose. And a buck a bug is good for zombie hordes. *gives cute widdle bug a hug* If the hardsuits are to the same scale they'll only be the size of the metal termis, which is going to disappoint a lot of people. Easy way to bulk 'em up though:

I don't mind smaller hardsuits, as long as the base are a proper size. It might allow for a bit more basing.

I was also unimpressed with the, as you say, magic floating backpack. Especially since they had done such a good job with the UAMC backpacks (aside from the fact that you only had enough for half your force on the sprue).

Now I know this is Labour Day weekend, but I expect an update the week after, especially since it has been quiet in the last few weeks.

And after looking at the minis and the concept art for the PZG, I now know exactly what bugs me about the figs. It's something minor, I guess, and down to personal aesthetic preferences, but I love the look the mid-section full of bags gives the concept art. It makes the PZG look top heavy. They seem too lithe in the flesh. Now if only I had hundreds of pouches from any other company lying around to bulk them out...

 Construct wrote:

Xeno wrote:Legs. Notice how similar they are to the arms at a casual glance?

That's not surprising given it's the same photo.

I really should paint up my Marines . . .

Shush, you. Primed is painted, dammit!



Whelp, that would be the final nail in the panzies coffin if they still needed one. Soft detail, horrible shoulder and waist joins, magic floating backpacks, and it looks like someone forgot to account for shrinkage when printing the masters as they're even smaller than the marines. Useful for making Space Marines look fluffy-bigger next to allied IG, I suppose. And a buck a bug is good for zombie hordes. *gives cute widdle bug a hug* If the hardsuits are to the same scale they'll only be the size of the metal termis, which is going to disappoint a lot of people. Easy way to bulk 'em up though:

Image fixed (and it looks like all the others are broken. Sigh . . .).

Also, thanks for posting that picture. It's glorious!

I had to do a double read, I read Xeno's post as "wait til they make the bugger bugs."

That was... uncomfortable.

Liking the weapons, the bodies are less inspiring unfortunately.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I had to do a double read, I read Xeno's post as "wait til they make the bugger bugs."

That was... uncomfortable.

. . . yep, whole lotta wrong with concept . . .

I could imagine people willing to take weapons up against them though.

What are those pictures I just saw?

The German Panzergrenadiers, pictures don't look particularly great though, so difficult to get an idea of what they really look like.

A few questions about bases.

Anyone have an actual close up photographed shot of the standard textured DG bases? I'm looking for cheap pre-textured bsaes and the renders I've seen of these seem to have good texture. Are they rough enough that they look good with just a paint and drybrush or do they need flock?

Also, any word on whether the diamondplate bases that will come with the Germans will be sold separately?

Not a word so far. Since they aren't part of the sprue, it might very well be possible.

As for the UAMC bases, I don't think a quick drysbrush would be enough to make it a hit. You'll need to spruce them up a little bit, imho.

Hardsuits, where are you?

The swamp snakes have just been added to pre-orders, according to FB.

Gooooooooo Gators! I mean... Swamp worms!

<-- still waiting for bugs ordered in June :(

Oh, dude. Necros, I'm sorry for you. That must really bite.

But look at the nice swamp snakes!

I'm a bit uneasy with pre-ordering, tbh. Even the DreamForge KS had me leery for the first few days. Communication eased my fears. I'M not saying Tony needs to be as communicative as Mark, but there must be a happy medium between GW and DreamForge, no?

Necros,

I got my order a few weeks ago from my pre-order in May. Have you e-mailed Defiance Games about it?

Have they run out of Bugs already?

yeah I just keep meaning to email em and forget. But I was thinking since I ordered in June they still had to get through all the earlier preorders anyway

Seriously? How many pre-orders were there? Even a thousand should go out in a week of less, even for a one man outfit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh geez, I just turned into angry gamer real quick. Sorry about that, folks.

I just get yelled at for giving bad service once in my day and it turns me into uber-a$$h0le, apparently.

Zazen, people, zazen.

Don't worry, they've been 'shipping' since early July. It's now two months later and most of the pre-orders still haven't shipped. (including mine, i paid over three months ago)

 Construct wrote:
If the hardsuits are to the same scale they'll only be the size of the metal termis, which is going to disappoint a lot of people.

I actually would really like that. Bulkier than a PA SM but small enough to fit on a 25mm base. If the actual minis are close to the art/renders Ill be picking up some for sure.

Another quickie photoshop chop job. The German looks a bit larger than the silhouette in this side by side, but he should actually be pretty close to what the human would be under the combat gear. Now, they're digital, so defiance can always change the size to be larger if they decide to, but based on the concept art I'd say that the metal terminator size is about spot-on. And like the metal terminators, you could probably fit these on either 25mm or 40mm bases and not have them look too out of place.

Dead link

sad panda if they are that small

(especially at 8 per box, compared to however many troopers)

But since all the pre-order bugs don't seem to have shipped yet, i'd be waiting for them to hit retail anyway

They're a bit bigger than that though if what I've heard is true.

For example, the operator's arms do not leave the main "shell" of the body. That image is incorrect. Their arms are tucked into the main suit last I heard. If that's so, these things must be at least a bit bigger for the operator's arms to fit in.

Yes, the new fluff confirms the arms stay in the egg, not the arms.

It is getting late for an update on something else but swamp snakes, no?

Hrm, not sure how I feel about that. I was initially expecting larger suits, maybe about the size of the plastic terminators or slightly smaller than Tau crisis suits. but after doing the mock-up using the concept art, I'm rather fond of the smaller suits. They'd make great not-stealth suits for a not-tau army at that size. Hopefully we get an update soon, Defiance's schedule is killing me!

Yes, I hope no one was holding their breath. My CPR card expired many years ago. And I just woke up, so you know what that means

Bugs are shipping now

 Necros wrote:
Bugs are shipping now

Weren't they shipping a month ago though?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Necros wrote:
Bugs are shipping now

Weren't they shipping a month ago though?

They were "shipping"

What that means is a bit subjective I suppose

And here I was hoping that he would edit to say "Panzergrenadiers" instead of bugs.

Only 10 days left until the grenadiers miss their ship date!

On a more serious note, have any decent quality photos of the final production figures? Most of what has appeared so far is either too dark or blurry to pass judgement on quality.

No, but from the shots we saw, I would say that all of them need filing at the bottom of the torso, to have them look a little less fey. Those were some tiny waists.

...And we have until May 2013. If DreamForge doesn't screw up and those female eisenkern are any good, I am switching my aim to them. My platoons will not fill themselves with female models.

Apparently, Mark (DreamForge) has a history of quality products too.

Defiance, your move?

 Xeno wrote:


http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/just-bugging-you

First shot of a packed Bug box. Since they're using "restic" instead of polystyrene sprues the pieces come on "mini-sprues."

By the way, the word I've heard about the Bugs is that polystyrene glue will NOT work on them; you'll need super glue.

It may be like the Starship Trooper models; hard ABS plastic. You may be able to get away with using an ABS capable glue like or Tenax 7R or Plastruct Plastic Weld.

I'm not looking forward to using superglue because models shatter like a bomb if you drop them.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlexHolker wrote:
Tony's posted some concept art of a German walker, planned as a 2 for $30 release. For IG players, that's two Sentinels for the price of one.

link

Oh wow, these are very nice. Like a mini-Battletech figure for a very reasonable price.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera .com


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xeno wrote:
Despite its flaws (mainly the bases) I like this set. Of course, I'm biased, but I do think they stand up well, especially for the price. The casting is a little uneven (as is the color -- they apparently used several different shades of gray during manufacturing runs) but I think the sculpts are good and, along with the variety of parts, lend themselves well to creating a flailing, ripping, screeching mass of chitinous horrors. They are easy enough to put together and lend themselves well to speed painting. Priming, base-coating, and dry-brushing should produce an acceptable force in a relatively short time.

These are terrible figures. The casting quality is borderline unacceptable, and the bases are wholly unacceptable. They're barely better than fan-cast quality. After seeing how good the marines were, I was looking forward to seeing a good sprue of Hudson's Bugs. Not now. These are barely more than fan models.

 chris_valera wrote:
It may be like the Starship Trooper models; hard ABS plastic. You may be able to get away with using an ABS capable glue like or Tenax 7R or Plastruct Plastic Weld.

Trollforged Ed mentioned earlier in the year that he'd finalised two main recipes for his use. One contained HIPS and resin and could be solvent-welded with polystyrene cement. The other contained ABS and resin and couldn't, but was easier to cast. Defiance Tony has said that the recipe Ed gave them is completely new but it still may be ABS-based, so it's worth a shot.

These are terrible figures. The casting quality is borderline unacceptable, and the bases are wholly unacceptable. They're barely better than fan-cast quality. After seeing how good the marines were, I was looking forward to seeing a good sprue of Hudson's Bugs. Not now. These are barely more than fan models.

What's so bad about the casting, bases aside? On the Bugs, the minor fit issues are easily corrected and the voids are restricted to the pour blocks; not a good look but of no consequence to the finished models. On the Panzergrenadieren, the detail was a little soft on the CAD sculpts to begin with; the clearest photos show it replicated faithfully enough, they're just swamped beneath all the tiny, out-of-focus, glare-ridden ones make that them look half-melted.

So did the germans ship yesterday? If they did, I'll order a box. If they didn't, that may well be the final straw for most people that were looking at this company for models...

I thought the deadline was today? Although, a few weeks more, who's going to count, really?

If it is *exactly* the stuff you're looking for, then you'll wait. I wanted those eggs, man. So much cooler than Ogryns...

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I thought the deadline was today? Although, a few weeks more, who's going to count, really?

If it is *exactly* the stuff you're looking for, then you'll wait. I wanted those eggs, man. So much cooler than Ogryns...

Oh yeah I know, I'm just curious.

That dreamforge thing kinda tapped me out cashwise for the time being, but if the panzergrenadiers will start shipping soon I may order a box soon just because I really need some IG stormtroopers

I know it's different in the mini world than other products' marketing, where momentum and constant barrage of info is not as important, but I really feel like Defiance got some wind stolen out of their sails (and sales) by those KS.

Tony, how about a KS to fund a faster turnaround?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I know it's different in the mini world than other products' marketing, where momentum and constant barrage of info is not as important, but I really feel like Defiance got some wind stolen out of their sails (and sales) by those KS.

Tony, how about a KS to fund a faster turnaround?

No kidding, it took the wind out of pretty much everything. I wouldn't be surprised if the chaos release hurts a bit just because everyone spent their cash on kickstarter

that would be a good thing, imho. For the wrong reasons, but a good thing. If those models undersell, I'll be happy. I just don't like them.

 chris_valera wrote:

 Xeno wrote:


By the way, the word I've heard about the Bugs is that polystyrene glue will NOT work on them; you'll need super glue.

It may be like the Starship Trooper models; hard ABS plastic. You may be able to get away with using an ABS capable glue like or Tenax 7R or Plastruct Plastic Weld.

I'm not looking forward to using superglue because models shatter like a bomb if you drop them.

--Chris

This isn't an issue if you use the correct kind of superglue. For models where shattering apart (due to small connections or heavy parts) is a concern you need a rubberized superglue. Rubberized Cyanoacrylates have more shock resistance than regular superglues. I've switched to rubberized superglues for almost all places where I use a gel-consistency superglue.

Your local hobby shop might carry the BSI glues (they often have the stores name stamped on the front) The Instaflex+ and IC2000 glues are rubberized and shock resistant.




If they don't have BSI glues, then Gorilla "Impact Tough" rubberized superglue is available at most hardware stores.

http://www.gorillatough.com/index.php?page=super-glue

Any of these glues will make it much less likely that the model will break apart at the glue points if dropped or impacted.

That is sweet! I bought a tub (yes, not a single tube) of superglue from Udisco (they call it Atomic glue) and can't seem to make a dent in the quantity so far. Although I haven't had to complain about the strength of the bond yet, extra assurance is always good.

Germans apparently are finally shipping as of the 29th last month

Yes, his update on his forums was a bit of a mixed bag of apology and hype for the upcoming releases. The bugs seem to be a major roadblock for them, at least compared to the Germans. The swamp snakes will be out next monday, technically, and then we can move on to... dare I say it... hardsuits?

So... anybody go ahead and take the plunge? Interested to see some pictures from customers, if the grenadiers are actually shipping already.

I was planning on getting the PZG as stormtroopers, but I splurged on Dreamforge's strumtruppen instead. I want to wait until the hardsuits and the female UAMC marines are out before I finish getting my infantry, make it one big purchase and save on shipping.

well, my debit card got lost, or else I was literally just about to buy a set.

I'll have to wait for a new card to come in before I can make an order, but I'll be sure to let you guys know when I place the order and when the minis show up.

2 days and we can go about our business as usual! rofl

I don't think anyone mentioned this so far, we went straight to the missile pods, but there was a post about the regular weapons on the hardsuits.

http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/uamc-hardsuit-weapon-options

Still no word on when these would hit the streets, though.

Ooh, those weapons look really nice!

Got a bit of a giggle reading all the comments below the post from folks looking for "realism" in their hardsuits and arguing about whether or not it's a good idea to have weapons in the arms. As though they are in the arms for any reason other than they look cool and fit the subject material the concepts were drawn from!

Yes, this is a futuristic sci-fi setting, so please keep it as boring as real life as possible!

I kinda like my stuff to make a bit of sense, but still, rule of cool shouldn't always be pushed aside.

They just posted a few pictures on FB... nothing new.

The only way to measure the quality of science fiction is by how erect hard it is. That's why nobody liked the Jedi until Lucas came up with that highly-plausible midichlorians explanation.

On another note, the bugs really want me to convert them into Babylon 5 Shadows (and their allies). Time is on their side.

true, the bugs do look like them. If only they came out with a Starfury-style flyer...

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Yes, this is a futuristic sci-fi setting, so please keep it as boring as real life as possible!

I kinda like my stuff to make a bit of sense, but still, rule of cool shouldn't always be pushed aside.

You can't cite the Rule of Cool as a defense: if it doesn't go without saying, it wasn't cool enough.

And verisimilitude doesn't mean things have to be boring. Human stories in a world that makes sense at least at first glance are less boring than in one where things operate purely on the whim of the author, because it allows you to see beyond what is written into the world beyond.

Even the What The!? tables fall foul of this. This is a setting where shooting artillery at a building is a death sentence, so why the hell are they in such shoddy condition that every turn they have a 1-in-500 chance of triggering a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies"? Is the game less interesting if it doesn't arbitrarily kill half your squad for a stupid reason?

Are those really the odds? I never stopped to do the math.

Hands are such finnicky things, though. From what we can see today, and for what they would need to do on hardsuits, I'm assuming they would be an important weight and space investment.

Although if you do mount the weapons on the shoulders, you could free the arms for manipulation and balance while walking or running.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, that is neither here nor there, for the moment. Hardsuits have not been announced yet.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Hands are such finnicky things, though. From what we can see today, and for what they would need to do on hardsuits, I'm assuming they would be an important weight and space investment.

Yes, they would be. If you're not going to play to the strengths of power armour, you have no business making them. The modifications DFG made to the UAMC hardsuit design mean it has all the downsides of power armour without any of the benefits.

Right... didn't they have hands in the renders we saw? Those were fine looking suits, did they offer any reasons for why they changed their minds? Or is this just more options they plan to give us?

I just wish they had a bit more time to have a presence on forums other than theirs, honestly.

There has been griping on the forums about missed deadlines and late pre-orders, mostly the bugs.

According to Tony, you get 300 pieces per box, all the while they were finding a Best Way to do things in their new factory, so that was bound to slow things down, and most pre-orders have also received extra Germans of Swamp Worms. Not ideal, but short of going back in time, that is about all they can do and have done it.

They are also not promising anything more for this year concretely, looking into 2013 as their big year. I think this is infinitely wise on their part, giving themselves a buffer in that way.

A new update repeating the same stuff as before has appeared on the Defiance website:

Sorry for the lack of updates - it's been all hands on deck in the new plastic "factory" here in Boston to get the Germans rolling out as fast as possible.

We've been shipping steadily albeit slowly but will be able to move everything out much faster now that we've solved some problems on this end with production.

As many of you know, Ed Fortae officially joined the company back in August after working with us for several months in figuring out a new plastic process that lets us put figures that have all the undercuts and "life" of metal miniatures into hard plastic. This was a new process that Ed was still perfecting and took a while for all of us to get to a point where we could produce reliably and consistently.

Our first set for this new plastic process - Hudson's Bugs - was in many ways both a great choice and a poor one. The Bug box consists of 30 Bugs each made with 10 parts - 4 legs, 2 body parts, 2 arms, a head, and a 30mm round base. There are LOADS of parts in the box and they take a LONG time to produce. It was great to start with these as it was the perfect test of the system and helped Ed iron out a lot of issues and go from experiment to full-on production. It was bad though because they're just a tough set to produce in quantity - a lot of man-hours go into them. For example we can get about 6 German boxes for every Bug box!

The Bugs were creating a HUGE bottleneck and holding up all the other releases so we decided that they would have to be sidelined for general distribution for the time being and we would just focus on getting the pre-orders out and then catch up on them for distribution release later.

At the same time that all this was going on, we bought new plastic equipment and moved into our new production/warehouse space here in Boston. We had to get the whole team up to speed on the process - and in doing so we ended up changing some things along the way including how Ed was doing molds so that the process could go faster.

Every time we thought we had a handle on things - something would creep up to knock us back. Well - knock on wood - we've finally got it all figured out and we've been producing steadily and consistently for the last few weeks and building up and shipping German sets.



One of our packing stations. The parts come from the molding room and are checked, sorted, and bagged before being boxed.

All of this, of course, has had a cumulative effect so we're just WAY behind on everything in our plan. Like they say - no plan survives contact with the enemy! Despite all these setbacks and disappointments along the way, we're feeling really good about the process and the end product. It's an awesome feeling to see a beautifully detailed piece come fresh from the mold.

So as we get the rest of the Germans out to consumers, retailers, and distributors over the next couple weeks, we're also continually moving ahead with additional projects for both our ALIEN WAR range and some co-branded sets that will leverage the new plastic process. These sets will be kept under wraps until their boxed and ready to go…but there are some fun and unexpected things coming down the pike!

Again, we're so sorry for all the delays and false starts on our end. We kept thinking we had things sorted only to stumble into some other delay as we moved forward. We are working as fast as possible to get the Germans all shipped off to everyone - and making sure there are some extras in there to try to make up for the delays on our end.

We hope all this is behind us now and we can get on with the very important work of making toy soldiers!!!

Oh - and something coming for the Germans in 2013…

So, at this point, how does everyone feel about this? Anyone still care?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

So, at this point, how does everyone feel about this? Anyone still care?

No, I no longer care. The only thing this company seems to do consistantly is make excuses.

A friend pre-ordered the bugs (against my warning) and, when he complained to them about the endless delays, they simply cancelled his order without him knowing about it. He only found out when he called again after pre-orders were FINALLY going out !!

Pathetic customer service like that coupled with a lack of serious production scream "amateur" and my money will be happily spent with a reliable company. The way they run their "new" business makes me have my doubts about all the blame and accusations they leveled at their original Chinese factory partner when they were "Wargames Factory". It seems they are STILL having production issues and can't get models into customer hands in a timely manner. Thanks but no thanks.

Well if they get the Hard Suits to a shop near me i'm still interested.

But at the moment I have no interest in ordering direct (of god forbid, pre-ordering),

and I'm not sure how distributors will take them abandoning the bugs to move on to yet another new toy, as I'm sure they ordered stuff (even if they didn't pay upfront like ordinary customers)

So... six and a half months after they posted the roadmap, they've given up on the first fortnight's item. At this rate, I'll have an XX Marine kit out before these guys.

In hindsight, they were being pretty optimistic about that roadmap, weren't they? Even though the Marines were horribly late in production, and the bugs were hitting those bumps in the road... I'd have seen that as a trend, and not an anomaly, had I been in their place.

As you just said, Orlando: When I see them available through the Warstore, I'll buy. Even though shipping is prohibitive, it is a form of insurance policy. I will not pre-order anything.

I'd still like some of the Germans, just for the guns and ability to mix and match on various miniatures I have.

The walker looks really good, and would be a great stand in Sentinel. However, I don't think I would be pre-ordering at all.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
A new update repeating the same stuff as before has appeared on the Defiance website:

Spoiler:

So, at this point, how does everyone feel about this? Anyone still care?

Walker looks cool, but until we see some hardsuits, I can't summon up the interest to care. In fact, it's getting harder and harder to want to follow these medium-small businesses when they can't seem to keep a production schedule. And, I have exactly zero willingness to pre-order anything.

I realize that pre-orders and production schedule reveals help create interest, but I think I'd rather go back to the old school way when companies like GZG or Old Crow would just suddenly pop up with a new product, and we would all get excited, and people would buy it. The most forward news we'd get would be something like "Something coming for ______ faction in the spring!" and then it would come in the spring.

Rant over.

I'm still looking forward to the hardsuits though as I actually have a use for them. Are these going to be plastic or plasti-troll-resi-tic-ity?

I'd put my money on the latter, and not the hard plastic similar to GW.

First thing Ed Fortae did when getting the job at Defiance Games? Start a kickstarter for his own products and also cast for Tre Manor's kickstarter

If your after hardsuits in the same style then these mite be able to perchase within the next century!

http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/news/2012/08/i-spy-with-my-little-eye-something-beginning-with-awesome/

 Kroothawk wrote:
First thing Ed Fortae did when getting the job at Defiance Games? Start a kickstarter for his own products and also cast for Tre Manor's kickstarter

Ed sums up his feelings on Frothers (NSFW, lots of bad language on this forum) http://frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=3270

That's some real competition there, as Antenocitis Workshop makes some really nice product.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
First thing Ed Fortae did when getting the job at Defiance Games? Start a kickstarter for his own products and also cast for Tre Manor's kickstarter

Ed sums up his feelings on Frothers (NSFW, lots of bad language on this forum) http://frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=3270

Great link. Some other notable miniature makers weigh in on that thread. What they and Ed say doesn't look good for Defiance though...

Alpharius wrote:That's some real competition there, as Antenocitis Workshop makes some really nice product.

It's a nice product, but it was the budget nature of the Defiance game product that drew me in to get additional some hardsuits for my Ventauran army. If Defiance can't get their act together I'll just use the 3 Tau Stealth suits I picked up a while back and call it a day. The Tau suits are nice models, I just liked the Mak. look of the DG suit renders a bit better.

At this point I'm very glad I kept them and didn't sell them in anticipation of the DG suits release.

I keep hoping, but...

But Antenociti does not seem to be any closer to selling them either. And besides, AW's models are a bit to baroque for me, with the elongated arms and extra curlicues everywhere. I was really hoping Defiance would make reliable, plentiful products. I have even sold my old IG hoping to replace it with UAMC marines, females and hard suits... I just don't know where that plan will go now.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But Antenociti does not seem to be any closer to selling them either. And besides, AW's models are a bit to baroque for me, with the elongated arms and extra curlicues everywhere. I was really hoping Defiance would make reliable, plentiful products. I have even sold my old IG hoping to replace it with UAMC marines, females and hard suits... I just don't know where that plan will go now.

...over to Dreamforge?

Eilif wrote:

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
First thing Ed Fortae did when getting the job at Defiance Games? Start a kickstarter for his own products and also cast for Tre Manor's kickstarter

Ed sums up his feelings on Frothers (NSFW, lots of bad language on this forum) http://frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=3270

Great link. Some other notable miniature makers weigh in on that thread. What they and Ed say doesn't look good for Defiance though...

Nice read. Looks like the owners of Defiance Games are about to drive the next company against the wall (after Wargames Foundry).

It's the gamer/model makers curse, brought into the manufacturing company.

New shinies are ALWAYS better than old shinies (even if you've not finished assembling/painting them)

I mean I quite like the bugs, most folk who actually saw them quite liked the bugs,

they were reasonably unique (well not many companies were activly selling comparable stuff). If they'd dedicated the manpower & energy that went into the germans, and other 'cool new concepts' to fixing the problems with the bugs, and actually getting them out to retail they'd be in a much stronger position

Yes, probably. When I saw them discussing the Chinese forces and the Papal forces (I kid you not) I felt a little unhinged, like they were looking miles away instead of at the problem right in their face.

Alpharius: Well before Dreamforge offered a female option, I was locked into waiting for the female UAMC marines... but now I just don't know. The Black Widows would mingle well with my Stormtroopers, I just didn't pledge for enough of those, though... so I guess I'll need to buy a box or two retail.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
When I saw them discussing the Chinese forces and the Papal forces (I kid you not) I felt a little unhinged, like they were looking miles away instead of at the problem right in their face.

Let me guess: The evil Chinese forces were stealing military secrets from the heroes in preparation for an invasion and the Paypal forces were secretly financing it?

BTW Defiance Games should really work together with the Ex Illis guys. They seem to have a similar view on life.

No, the Chinese forces were actually a sort of quantity over quality group, as opposed to the Germans, with UAMC being middle of the pack (how un-jingoistic of them).

Papal forces (I see what you did there) were more of an elite edge force, like today's Swiss Guard. If you can call the bouffant pants and feathers elite.

Some of this stuff looks interesting, but for my alternate/scifi WWII stuff I'd rather go for DUST...

I was hoping to use them for sudo-Command and Conquer factions (Dust would work nicely for Red Alert though). I'd say they would have a pretty good market for what they are making, if they could actually make it...

It's sort of sad Defiance is still skirting the edges of miniature vapourware. They've gotten some things out but they keep talking about the future without dealing with the present.

And for them to be going on two years with exactly that many kits to speak of... man I wish this company would just make it. Yeah, I like the marines, call me crazy.

Now it's three sets in two years. Guess what finally arrived on Friday?

Yup, the Germans. I assembled a few, took some pictures, and now here are my thoughts.

The kit turned out pretty well, all things considered. Others have have mentioned getting pieces with lots of air bubbles, guns with snapped off barrels, irreversible warping, etc, but mine turned out pretty well. One of the carbines was missing its barrel (and just the very tip of the barrel), the bonus figure had an air bubbled on the underside of his machinegun, and another on his knee, and there were air bubbles on the underside of the torsos and the figures' feet but the last aren't much of a problem since those will be glued to other things anyway so won't normally be visible. The detail was good and they were better than the pre-production figures I got with my Bugs months ago.

The biggest problem with the minis themselves is flash -- there was a lot of it on the arms, though it cleaned up very well; Troll Forge plastic carves easily so cleaned up the figures is a snap. One of the missile launchers -- the one I picked when assembling my gruppe -- had enough flash to cause problems with the detail on the weapon sight. Several of the weapon barrels were warped, but I was able to straighten them out with some hot water and about a minute of work.

However, I should mention that these guys are small -- smaller than the DG Marines, enough so that you'll notice with a casual glance. I'm not especially happy about this; the Germans are supposed to be wearing heavy armor but instead they look like slight teenagers next to the more lightly-armored Marines. I'm going to mix-and-match pieces from the two sets to see how well they work together, but a side-by-side comparison scale-wise leaves me disappointed. Apparently, mold-shrinkage is an issue DG didn't compensate for when designing these guys.

So, anywho, have some pictures:




Loose weapons. The kit comes with two sets of these -- a carbine, grenade launcher, rifle, machinegun, and missile launcher (the latter two I'd already detached).



Weapon arms. The flash looks ugly, but cleans up very well.



The kit comes with three casualty figures.



The prone machinegunner looks good, but mine came missing his right arm! I've already contacted Defiance Games and they should be sending my a replacement.



Bases - the set comes with enough for all figures. They have a deck-plate texture and are very slightly smaller than the ones that came with the Marines. Unlike the Bug bases, these had no real flaws aside from a very slightly, barely noticeable concavity in the center.




A before and after of a warped machinegun barrel. Hot water and a minute's effort straightened it out. A Defiance rep admitted to be that they aren't really happy with the machineguns -- the barrels are far too thin. Every machinegun barrle in the set was similarly warped.



Male and female heads. The group on the top looks like a reject that was accidentally packed. The detail on them is pretty good, though not fantastic. The set also includes 20 helmeted heads -- more than enough for all the troops.



The first three of the seven figures I assembled. They go together fairly well with super glue, but, since the plastic is NOT polystyrene, polystyrene glue will not work with these.
For the record, the squad leader's arm came off while i was transporting these home and I didn't notice it until I started taking pictures.



The second group.


And, to finish this up, a few size comparisons:



A Defiance German and a Warlord Games Nazi. There is something rather ironic about this picture, I think.



With a Mantic Orc and an EM-4 Trooper



With a Wargames Factory Shock Trooper.



With one of the pre-production figures (on the right). Also, a cat in the background being annoying.



And, side-by-side with a UAMC Marine.

Much better detail than the UAMC marines, but it's probably too little too late at this point. I know I wouldn't order a set unless I saw it in my shop in person. Unless these guys came with a free coupon for a sexy stripper and a couple of bars of gold, I'd imagine there's no way they're turning around the negative reputation they've built over these past few months.

After getting burned on shipping time 3 out of 3 times, I would imagine most customers are EXTREMELY gunshy about ordering right now, if they even do so at all.

On an unrelated not, if you hadn't had the shipping delays, would you have considered this kit "worth" the money? Like if you had bought this in your local store right off the shelf, would you be happy or angry? The kits seem to have a fair amount of detail apart from the odd miscasts here and there. The last pic is probably the best example of that. Aside from the scale difference, the quality on the germans is a pretty big step up from the UAMC.

Still wouldn't mind a box just to get access to the guns. Really do like the rifles and carbines they made, as well as the GL. The heads aren't bad either.

Just wished they would have got their act together sooner. I am only likely to buy some through a 3rd party, not directly from them.

Am I satisfied . . .

Honestly, kinda.

They are a perfectly serviceable set with enough options, but that's it. Their poses are static; aside from a couple pairs of crouching legs (I would have preferred more) all of their stances are some variation on "standing." There aren't any grievous errors in casting, but I don't really know if that's because earlier problems were just learning issues or because every good piece rests upon a dozen miscasts (which might explain why the shipping is so slow). It means that, if I bought a second box, I don't know what I'd be getting. Further, the finished minis just don't do the concept art justice. They're not bad, but not amazing, either. Just kinda disappointing.


Then again, honestly I think they're about the same as most other human sci-fi troopers I've seen, none of which especially excite me these days. I keep look at them and comparing them to my Warlord Germans which, despite having some flaws, remain some of the most interesting, dynamic minis I've every assembled. They look like real soldiers -- all in movement, keeping their heads down, firing off snap shots, etc. The price is good, too -- for the same price as the Defiance Germans you get more minis, and they look more appealing. If I assembled a couple dozen of these guys they'd basically look the same -- static. Worst of all, they wouldn't look anything like real soldiers in combat.

But that's more of a personal taste thing.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Much better detail than the UAMC marines, but it's probably too little too late at this point.

I do not think so. The only people they may have pissed off are ones who preordered. However, these people also probably knew that the company did not release stuff on time.

 spaceelf wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Much better detail than the UAMC marines, but it's probably too little too late at this point.

I do not think so. The only people they may have pissed off are ones who preordered. However, these people also probably knew that the company did not release stuff on time.

So moral of the story is that wait 6-8 months when a product goes on pre order, and then buy it? I do enjoy business integrity

At least Avatars of War told you immediately you wouldn't get your product until a few months have past

If Defiance Games can actually manage to get themselves in gear and ship stuff, they should be fine and, in a years' time, I doubt anyone will even care about all the delays. If.

I'll put up $50 that says they have similar problems with their next releases.

If I see the Germans in my FLGS, I'll almost certainly pick them up. However, with all the problems people have been having, I don't know if I'd run out and order them online any time soon.

Really, I'd love to see Defiance follow up on their promise of Heavy Weapons for the USMC and the Marines. I think that will add a lot of versatility to the range, and provide the 40k-compatibility that might boost sales.

What the heck is up with the super thin waists?




A bad design choice that makes no sense, doesn't contribute to "realism" and only draws attention to the massive crotch codpiece armor that imbalances the look of the figure. I would consider cutting the waist out and dropping the figure 2mm, but they're already shorter than the troops they are supposed to accompany! Not that many folks are necessarily looking to play the Defiance rules/universe, but consistency should be maintained so that bits can be swapped across a range.

Sorry, but it just isn't good enough. The detail is better than the Marines and the weapons are better, but with the waists, style, size and warped barrels, this doesn't really seem to be much of an improvement. Defiance should thank their lucky stars that these are coming out before the Dreamforge troopers, because those figs set a new standard for indie company plastic figs, and if these are the two choices for pseudo-germans in sci-fi body armor, it's pretty clear who comes out ahead.

I consider it a bad sign when someone can't get the scale consistent inside of a single product line. I don't know what to say about them not matching their marines.

Tiny = sucks when you already have a collection 28mm that the marines fit with and these won't.

Thanks to Xeno for the unboxing. Unfortunately, it was the last nail in the coffin for me. With such serious casting issues, incorrect proportions, inconsistent scale, and soft details, I can't reasonably buy in. It's a shame, because six months ago, I was really looking forward to these.

Defiance could've tapped a big market. "hard" sci fi troops are hard to find (good ones at least) in plastic. Had this line taken off, it would have been awesome. And while the Dreamforge stormtroopers are awesome, they're not hard sci fi. These guys are panzergrenadiers in space. Dreamforge is stormtroopers with a german twist in space. I love the dreamforge figures, but I still think the panzergrenadiers fil an untapped niche. Thats why everyone was so hyped, becaus they WEREN'T just WWII germans in space.

The problem is, even if only the people who preordered are angry, thats still bad press. Doubly so considering they were supposed to be the first to get it, before stores, and the product is STILL months late. When some guy who's never heard of these before pops up and says "hey these are cool, why haven't I heard of these?" a lot of people will pop in and voice their disapproval of the line. Heck, we've been getting that already before some kits have even arrived on people's doorsteps. If they recover from this, I will be very surprised.

I still want to see this line get realized and I definitely hope Defiance games can get itself back on track. Unfortunately, what I hope will happen and what I believe will happen are two very different things.

Eh, I could care less about lateness, delivery dates, etc. Unfortuntately it's to the point now where I expect that from indie wargame companies. I look at the product, price, and use and make my judgement based on that.

"The problem is" that the figures are sub-par.

I can't tell from the pictures, but are there identifiably female heads thrown in the mix? It must be the mold release, but they look either shiny or bumpy, the heads.

I guess Black Widows it will be...

It looks like the cheap brittle resin that Ramshackle and old Warzone, correct?

 Kroothawk wrote:
It looks like the cheap brittle resin that Ramshackle and old Warzone, correct?

It looks similar, but I don't think they are the same. Ratner, IIRC, they are actually supposed to be a resin with similarities to Mantic restic. A bit more plasticy. I'd like to hear more from those who have used it though.

Also. which Warzone figs are you referring too? I don't recall any Warzone figs in resin.

Man, those look terrible. Glad I didn't buy into them.

Warzone had the restic troops that came with the 2nd edition box. Also, their larger vehicles and creatures were made of a more traditional resin.

 Gitkikka wrote:
Man, those look terrible. Glad I didn't buy into them.

Warzone had the restic troops that came with the 2nd edition box. Also, their larger vehicles and creatures were made of a more traditional resin.

The Warzone troops weren't restic or resin. They were just a harder plastic than normal, (not polystyrene) Not hard to assemble, you just needed super glue.

I do remember the vehicles, but as you say they were a traditional resin.

Warzone's plastics was ABS, I believe. High end plastic cement would work on them.

It's Troll Forged plastic, so I am thinking superglue is the way to go.

Those look terrible. With all the problems they've been having with their material why don't they use resin or metal? I'd prefer that over stuff that looks melty.

Also what is up with the scale? Not a good start if they are supposed ot be in the same line.

It's not the material, it's the (lack of) skill of the casters, and an unwillingness to reject failed castings (presumably as they are getting insufficient good ones)

If you look at the images on the Red Box Games thread you'll see what this stuff can look like when used as intended

I also suspect they've sculpted a lot of the guns barrels etc too thin for whatever the material they use (trollcast will look bendy, resin or metal will end up snapping)

Or they're taking them out of the mold too quickly without letting them cool (and getting the bendiness).

 judgedoug wrote:
Or they're taking them out of the mold too quickly without letting them cool (and getting the bendiness).

Looks like the Part A and Part B of the resin were not completely mixed. I have had that happen a few times. It usually happens if Part A hits the side of the mixing cup near the pouring spout. These should never have left the shop... ever.

 Xeno wrote:
Am I satisfied . . .

And that's from Defiance Defence Force #1, ooof!

The worst part of it all is I still would like to see them succeed. I hate the Catachan models, Cadians are cool but a bit bland, Copplestone are about the same price as a GW kit but are one piece metal models, Dreamforge have the same build as Superman in the old cartoons, and I don't want to go through the hassle of converting WWII or Napoleonic troops to look spacey. Pretty much any company making a multi part plastic human sci fi model is someone I want to see succeed and keep putting out models. That having been said, these are not the droids I've been hoping for. I'm still hoping for the best in the event they find a flash in the pan. Hell, people are so starved for a passable human sci fi kit, they think the Wargames Factory Greatcoats look good. Basically, what I'm hoping is that if they stay open long enough, they'll make something worth grabbing. Or at least they'll redesign the UAMC models. If the detail was sharper, they'd be fantastic.

If any customers have painted a few of their models, I'd like to see pics - some models look rather different when painted (even just undercoated).

Question: What would you rather see? More one off sets of DFG units or a complete force? I mean, would you rather see Chinese, British, Brazilian, Russian and whatever infantry sets, or would you rather see any given army get the full treatment of heavy weapons, specialist weapons, HQ, so on and so forth? I don't think this will change their policy, it's just a bit of curiosity. As sort of a side question, if you were releasing a completely new miniatures line including things like light vehicles and the rest with multiple factions, what order would you release things in?

Well I think a a COMPLETE force at one time (numerous types of infantry, support, vehicles) would be dead beat boring assuming 3-6 months in-between each faction

However I would like 2-3 sets per faction to be out for multiple factions within a relatively short time for variety. Much like Dystopian Legions if you checked their release waves

What I think would work well for now would be to see each faction get 1 type of standard buck infantry, 1 type of specialist unit, and a support vehicle of some sort, like the Powered Armor for the UAMC and that Metal Gear looking walker for the Germans.

I agree with Barzam.

Beyond that ...

Looking forward to seeing if the scale consistency is really an issue or not. The photo shown doesn't look much off to me, and I question if there is much of a difference. And how much its really noticable on a table top, compared to a photo that's magnified the view of the figure will be interesting to see.

I don't see the details as being soft either, but again, probably best to get the figures in hand first before finalizing such a view. Then see how they paint up.

As for the casting of the machine guns, definitely a bummer, but the rest seems to be ok. It seems unusual that the same figure shown also has the forearm off. The fact that they're acting on this for the customer is good.

Lets hope they can put these troubles behind them, because frankly, the Dreamforge figures aren't doing it for me. I prefer the style being shown by Defiance Games instead, but variation in products is ok because different folks are going to like different things..

 rosafari wrote:

 Xeno wrote:
Am I satisfied . . .

And that's from Defiance Defence Force #1, ooof!

I wouldn't exactly call myself part of the "Defiance Defense Force."

I've been involved with Defiance Games since before the company's founding, have seen the development of their products, heard of the trials and tribulations first and, and seen the frustration Defiance Games had with the endless delays they kept running into. They're actually trying hard to release good figures for a decent price, but keep running into serious problems. Some of these are not really their fault -- the delay on the Marines really was a problem with the manufacturers. Others really are their fault -- Tony Reidy had time-and-again launched pre-orders based on the naive belief that products will be ready to ship on a certain date despite several of us insider types saying flat-out "don't do a pre-order until you have the finished product in hand." Ed Fortae has mentioned on Frothers that they haven't followed his advice (he being the creator of the plastic) on manufacturing and has placed the blame on Defiance for the problems. Since I'm not in Massachusetts I don't know and I doubt I could get an honest answer out of them if I asked (and I have). They really are trying and do believe in their product -- the people working in the factory, including Gary who is also doubling as their facebook rep and webmaster are working for free because they want the company to succeed.

However, it's really, really frustrating to see them making the same mistakes over and over again, especially when you know it's probably going to kill the company. I don't exactly have a tangible investment but I do care. I'm not actively trying to defend them so much as say "these are the facts on the ground, make your own decisions." All I can really say is that people will get the products they ordered, but I wouldn't count on much else being shipped (and I wouldn't take Cpt. Jake's bet -- he'll probably win). If they can hold together and get a couple more products out and ensure reliable production, they should be okay, but I really do feel like that's a big "If."

Defiance's problem, though, is that there other companies in the game and they are releasing product that is just as good, if not better, for the same niches and for similar prices. Dreamforge is the exact perfect example of this.


Some further thoughts on the Germans:

They really aren't bad figures. The detail isn't soft after all -- it's actually very crisp, but since I don't have a light box or a decent camera the pictures at the best quality. The scale difference is noticeable, but it's not severe at tabletop distances, no more so than what you'd get combining a couple of ranged together. The cause of the problem, from what I understand, is that Defiance didn't compensate well-enough for mold-shrinkage and so the figures are smaller than they were intended to be. What this means, of course, is that they should have gone back and redid the molds.

If they release heavy weapons and a command pack for them (maybe even an upgrade kit similar to the Dreamforge one) I'll probably get those and another box of troops, but it's not something I'm waiting on with baited breath.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Clang wrote:
If any customers have painted a few of their models, I'd like to see pics - some models look rather different when painted (even just undercoated).

Give me a couple days and I can get a couple painted up. Unfortunately, I'm in college and school gets in the way of things. I'd actually intend to prime a couple gray and give them an ink wash to bring out the detail, but apparently Wal-Mart doesn't carry gray primer anymore and Russet Brown isn't so hot for showing off detail. Curse this small town and its limited options!

Could you give one a black wash just to show the detail?

Eilif wrote:
Could you give one a black wash just to show the detail?

I'll get one up tomorrow.

Unfortunately, I have to research parasitic wasps right now

I just went to their site. Still no new updates and no forum. But what was new was a section that looked like a spot for an advertisement. I was in my phone so maybe the content couldn't be loaded but is it an add? Could this mean that they are near the end and need extra cash to stay afloat?

 Xeno wrote:

 rosafari wrote:

 Xeno wrote:
Am I satisfied . . .

And that's from Defiance Defence Force #1, ooof!

I wouldn't exactly call myself part of the "Defiance Defense Force."

At one point you were their self proclaimed PR guy. Folks remember that.

 Xeno wrote:

Eilif wrote:
Could you give one a black wash just to show the detail?

I'll get one up tomorrow.

Unfortunately, I have to research parasitic wasps right now

Thanks,
Don't get bit!

So I just got my Gunny in the mail. Along with my gunny I also got a Fritz, 2 German Casualties and 3 Germans and 3 sprues of Marines. This, I believe, has more than made up for my delays with receiving my Gunny. He was a free mini anyway, so to receive even more freebies with him was just a great bug WIN!

I can stand confident, at this point, that they aren't going down just yet and really are trying to get everything sorted out. If you are still waiting on an order I would highly suggest going to their Facebook page and leaving a comment there. They have been very responsive with everyone over there and they really do seem to be getting things done as fast as they can.

Edit: Also, after looking carefully at every model I got, not a single one seems to have any miscasts. They all have clean lines. There is a reasonable amount of flash and a couple of German gun barrels are SLIGHTLY bent. Nothing abnormal for resin and a hell of a lot better than a good bit of Failcast that I have seen. Maybe GW should ask for advice now that Defiance has it working.

Shepherd23 wrote:
So I just got my Gunny in the mail. Along with my gunny I also got a Fritz, 2 German Casualties and 3 Germans and 3 sprues of Marines. This, I believe, has more than made up for my delays with receiving my Gunny. He was a free mini anyway, so to receive even more freebies with him was just a great bug WIN!

I can stand confident, at this point, that they aren't going down just yet and really are trying to get everything sorted out. If you are still waiting on an order I would highly suggest going to their Facebook page and leaving a comment there. They have been very responsive with everyone over there and they really do seem to be getting things done as fast as they can.

Edit: Also, after looking carefully at every model I got, not a single one seems to have any miscasts. They all have clean lines. There is a reasonable amount of flash and a couple of German gun barrels are SLIGHTLY bent. Nothing abnormal for resin and a hell of a lot better than a good bit of Failcast that I have seen. Maybe GW should ask for advice now that Defiance has it working.

Holy crap I just realized I STILL haven't got that stupid gunny figure...

I had forgotten all about him.

 Xeno wrote:
Unfortunately, I have to research parasitic wasps right now

Damn, then the rumours about Tau manipulating vespids are true

Sorry I haven't got those pictures up yet; it's on the schedule for tonight. I'm thinking just paint one gray and give it a light gray drybrush.

I also (finally) got my Gunny, along with a replacement for the prone gunner with the missing arm (plus bonus extra casualty figures) and a couple of Swamp Worms too. Of course, the MG gunner's barrel had snapped; I think I'm going to reinforcement all of them with a thing strip of something or other under the barrel.

 Xeno wrote:
Sorry I haven't got those pictures up yet; it's on the schedule for tonight. I'm thinking just paint one gray and give it a light gray drybrush.

I also (finally) got my Gunny, along with a replacement for the prone gunner with the missing arm (plus bonus extra casualty figures) and a couple of Swamp Worms too. Of course, the MG gunner's barrel had snapped; I think I'm going to reinforcement all of them with a thing strip of something or other under the barrel.

Just replace the barrels with something like a paperclip or a small piece of wire. That's what I do.

Now, please note that these kits have been showing up at people's doors since the forum has been downed and someone in particular has been publicly silenced.

I would like to propose the Tony Reidy law of miniature production.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Now, please note that these kits have been showing up at people's doors since the forum has been downed and someone in particular has been publicly silenced.

I would like to propose the Tony Reidy law of miniature production.

So eventually someone else is gonna wrestle the company out of his hand, and then everything will become better

I hope that will be the case in the future

As requested, I finally got these taken:










As far as detail is concerned, there two real issues -- the holes in the greaves and the slots in the vambraces are a bit shallow. Also, there tend to be mold lines on the helmet, but those are easy to clean up. Otherwise, they're fine.

Thansk for that, much appreciated. I have to admit they don't look as bad with a coat of paint and a drybrush. My initial impressions are mostly unchanged, but perhaps a bit more subdued now.

Did you file down the waist a bit?

I'm still not impressed enough to buy them for myself, but I can see where these are of good-enough quality that some folks will buy them. I'm still holding out hope for the hardsuits!

Nope, didn't file down the waist. I did on one figure, but it made him too short and didn't look very good besides.

Eilif wrote:
Eh, I could care less about lateness, delivery dates, etc. Unfortuntately it's to the point now where I expect that from indie wargame companies. I look at the product, price, and use and make my judgement based on that.

"The problem is" that the figures are sub-par.

Yup. Like I said before, these are poor, barely better than fan-cast.

It's a shame too, I was looking forward to getting some of the Hudson's Bugs, but now... no way.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

 SkaerKrow wrote:
Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

I don't really see the similarity with these minis and the dream forge stuff. Other than gas masked helmet heads. Yes they are both German inspired, but that really is were the similarity ends.

That said, I like these and will probably use them. I love the Dreamforge minis and will most definitely use them. I will just not be able to use them together probably, Between these guys being on the short side and the Dreamforge stuff running on the tall side, I am thinking that it will be to apparent on the table top.

I want them to fight GI Joe!

Do all these pictures mean that they are finally available through normal, non-DG channels?

Also, where's my gunny?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I want them to fight GI Joe!

Hmm, they do have a rather Cobra look about them. I've already got a bunch of Reaper Bones Nova troopers (through kickstarter) coming my way that will get a head swap to be cobra vipers, but these would work also.

Shepherd23 wrote:

 SkaerKrow wrote:
Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

I don't really see the similarity with these minis and the dream forge stuff. Other than gas masked helmet heads. Yes they are both German inspired, but that really is were the similarity ends.

That said, I like these and will probably use them. I love the Dreamforge minis and will most definitely use them. I will just not be able to use them together probably, Between these guys being on the short side and the Dreamforge stuff running on the tall side, I am thinking that it will be to apparent on the table top.

You don't see the similarity between two German inspired kits of Sci-Fi soldiers in full combat armor with enclosed, masked helmets? The premise is damned near identical, the difference is mainly chalked up to quality and execution. I'm glad that you like them, but they are objectively of lower sculpting quality than the very similar kit from Dreamforge.

Is it me, or with the way the shoulders are positioned, that would be a very long neck on those Germans?

You look like you have soft hands... ;-)

No, you're probably just used to GW sculpts that haven't got a neck.

Defiance minis -- like the WGF minis sculpted by the same artist -- have rounded neck stumps that are one part useful since you get position them as needed and one part a pain in the butt because you have to carve them to get them right. With the Germans, it's also useful to shave them a bit since the neck area has a gorget and so the head shouldn't rise too high.

 SkaerKrow wrote:

Shepherd23 wrote:

 SkaerKrow wrote:
Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

I don't really see the similarity with these minis and the dream forge stuff. Other than gas masked helmet heads. Yes they are both German inspired, but that really is were the similarity ends.

That said, I like these and will probably use them. I love the Dreamforge minis and will most definitely use them. I will just not be able to use them together probably, Between these guys being on the short side and the Dreamforge stuff running on the tall side, I am thinking that it will be to apparent on the table top.

You don't see the similarity between two German inspired kits of Sci-Fi soldiers in full combat armor with enclosed, masked helmets? The premise is damned near identical, the difference is mainly chalked up to quality and execution. I'm glad that you like them, but they are objectively of lower sculpting quality than the very similar kit from Dreamforge.

Except one looks like german starwars stormtroopers, and the other looks like near future soldiers but with iconic german helmets (though possibly badly executed it's true).

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 SkaerKrow wrote:

Shepherd23 wrote:

 SkaerKrow wrote:
Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

I don't really see the similarity with these minis and the dream forge stuff. Other than gas masked helmet heads. Yes they are both German inspired, but that really is were the similarity ends.

That said, I like these and will probably use them. I love the Dreamforge minis and will most definitely use them. I will just not be able to use them together probably, Between these guys being on the short side and the Dreamforge stuff running on the tall side, I am thinking that it will be to apparent on the table top.

You don't see the similarity between two German inspired kits of Sci-Fi soldiers in full combat armor with enclosed, masked helmets? The premise is damned near identical, the difference is mainly chalked up to quality and execution. I'm glad that you like them, but they are objectively of lower sculpting quality than the very similar kit from Dreamforge.

Except one looks like german starwars stormtroopers, and the other looks like near future soldiers but with iconic german helmets (though possibly badly executed it's true).

This is what I mean. They are similarly inspired, but they most definitely do not look the same. Dreamforge is wearing full body plate armor like a stormtrooper or medieval knight, DF Germans have clothing with some armor plate to protect vital areas. If usable together you could maybe use Dreamforge for GW Storm troops or elites and the DF for regular guard, I thought about this as a way to get back into playing 40K affordably, but with the DF Germans being kinda short and the Dreamforge Guys being taller than average, it would look way off. Saying these guys look the same is like saying cadians and stormtroopers look the same.

 SkaerKrow wrote:
Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

"Exponentially" overstates it IMO, but I do think Defiance was late to the market here. While the Defiance Panzergrenadiers' concept and general armor design is much better than Dreamforge's Eisenkern Stormtroopers, which are rather stale Jin-Roh: Wolf Brigade knockoffs, Dreamforge has done a much better job in terms of sculpt quality and level of posability. Dreamforge is close to reaching GW's level of detail (though they are still far behind in terms of sprue design) and has actually surpassed some of the older GW kits, while Defiance, like WGF, continues to produce sculpts that suffer from soft detail in many places. This is especially damaging because Defiance's superior designs require good detail in many positions:



Unfortunately much of the straps and little detail pieces on the armor shown in this (excellent) concept piece don't seem to come out in the finished model. Further, as with their USMC (or whatever they changed the name to), Defiance has not been successful in their helmet design. They have again come out with excellent alternate cap heads which mitigate this to a large degree, but the "default" helmets look extremely goofy and out of scale.

On the plus side, Defiance's Panzergrenadiers are much better scaled for use with WH40k miniatures (which, let's be real, is the primary market for these products) than Dreamforge's Eisenkern Stormtroopers. The Panzergrenadiers are also cheaper, at 30 USD for 20 instead of 20 USD for 10 figures. However, their sculpting quality and posability seems inferior (weapons aside). Since these models are very similar it will be interesting to see which does better. Had Defiance successfully released their models in keeping with the initial schedule (and had since released multiple compatible kits to expand their line), I think they would be very well-positioned against Dreamforge. As it stands, not so much.

Defiance has cheaper, more original, and better-scaled miniatures, but Dreamforge's sculpt quality is much better (weapons aside) and they don't seem to be experiencing the same production and logistical issues that Defiance is. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, but I anticipate Dreamforge will likely be more successful in this arena.

Both Defiance and Dreamforge of course blow Wargames Factory out of the water, but that was pretty much a given at this point.

I disagree with the last line there; Wargames Factory's War of Spanish Succession kits are absolutely fantastic, with a gajillion options to basically allow you to make any country's troops for dirt cheap.

I agree with Kingsley statement about the comparisons between these two sets. One thing I have to add regarding the quality of the Dreamforge set...it is easier to get a crisp model when the entire thing is smooth armor plates vs a model that has detail over every square mm. It is much easier to make poses as well. Everything that Dreamforge did with this kit makes it easier to produce a decent looking model as long as you like the smooth appearance.

The defiance models are just the opposite. Both of their sets (marines and Germans) have detail everywhere. Said detail may be soft, but it exists none the less. They tried to make a model that had significant visual interest before paint was even applied that would enhance the total model after painting.

Dreamforge made a model that will be visually interesting after a skilled painter has applied his talents, much like a GW space marine. Both may be solid kits, but really lack visual stimulation without a great paint job. An average paint job won't make these kits pop due to the lack of details.

Of course, all of this is just my opinion, but I do believe that there is truth in it. I am not trying to downgrade the digital artists ability when referring to the Dreamforge stuff. He/she/it/them/hive are very talented and deserve the pat on the back with these kits. When they are released, I want a mule so bad it hurts. I am curious to see what they can do with more detailed models than these kits and the giant robot they have as well. If they can produce a more detailed range of kits with the quality that they seem to have, they will
Be a major contender in this market.

 Kingsley wrote:

Unfortunately much of the straps and little detail pieces on the armor shown in this (excellent) concept piece don't seem to come out in the finished model.

Because they weren't there in the sculpt. That concept art was never translated with any faithfulness to a 3D sculpt.
All Defiance has proven so far is that they can hire a talented illustrator. They don't seem capable of acknowledging their limitations at any level of their business.

I will admit, I am still making the Marines I got. they showed up last Summer, just over 100 of them, plus the Restic Gunny mini.

I was feeling good things for the Defiance band, but of late, the forums are down, no products updates, no updates of late I have see of the issues for the materials, (They should have stayed with the plastic) I do worry as they really needed to get themselves going off the ground, and selling more of the UAMC minis that were proven, and heck, once you make therm, the details is still not that bad, I just have to paint them now. I still have 24 left to build. I felt the possibilities would have been good.

Sadly, it looks grim for Defiance Games. Based on another post, it seems they are beset with many issues, too many experiments with materials before they got truly off the ground. Too many plans for making core forces before these issues are settled, too many over hopeful projections without hard figures to back said projections. Plenty of hurdles to overcome for sure, but they should stop, look at the most critical issues, and work on them instead of running around trying to do new things before they hammer out the problems.

Get back to p0lastic, sure it means sprues, but product sold will generate the revenue needed for future materials side projects li8ke restic as we saw so many issues. detailed minis worked out but most important, getting those minis out to those that ordered, else they will be bled dry if they have not been already by paypal etc disputes for money back.

From my perspective, it seemed that Defiance tried to take on too much too soon. Smaller steps so that problems could have been spotted and corrected faster would also have helped teethe them better so that they could have kept the Marines and gunny orders filled. THEN the bugs, and Germans could have been easier to get out as plastics and made folks less cranky. Many are upset that they have apparently not gotten the teething issues worked out, so miscasts, malforms exist, Germans so much shorter than their UAMC contemporaries, etc. Hardsuits had folks fired up, now not so much.

The problems, delays, drawbacks, and jumping ahead with announcements before product is truly ready for distribution has made folks edgy. I was there when they lost control of WGF way back, I got my 100 or so great coats before the similar problems of lack of distribution. Got e-mails from Tony himself, so I know the guy really does care, and means well, I think he just happens to let excitement override his sensibilities, and he should allow input from the team and customers help temper that enthusiasm so that a more realistic approach is taken by Defiance to avoid them going belly up

I seem to manage to get stuff before the troubles hit,,,well except the Bucky Balls fiasco.I am having to get my money back or the order filled for that.

But I truly hope that the Defiance Games team gets things ironed out and back on track so that they can get back in the "Game" of minis making and selling.

 plastictrees wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Unfortunately much of the straps and little detail pieces on the armor shown in this (excellent) concept piece don't seem to come out in the finished model.

Because they weren't there in the sculpt. That concept art was never translated with any faithfulness to a 3D sculpt.
All Defiance has proven so far is that they can hire a talented illustrator. They don't seem capable of acknowledging their limitations at any level of their business.

Actually, earlier Defiance Games renders seem to indicate that much of that detail was there:



Similarly, this test model posted earlier in the preproduction phase looks to have much better detail than the finished products people have been receiving:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
(They should have stayed with the plastic)

I think the problem was that they claimed "hard plastic takes too long!" so they tried to go for restic or trollcast or whatever we're calling it these days to get their products out

Turns out though their boneheaded business practices made it just as long if not longer to make/distribute these miniatures and also make them once again look silly if the details on their dealings with troll forge are accurate

And then theres the warping problem, and that it is slightly more expensive

 kenshin620 wrote:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
(They should have stayed with the plastic)

I think the problem was that they claimed "hard plastic takes too long!" so they tried to go for restic or trollcast or whatever we're calling it these days to get their products out

Turns out though their boneheaded business practices made it just as long if not longer to make/distribute these miniatures and also make them once again look silly if the details on their dealings with troll forge are accurate

And then theres the warping problem, and that it is slightly more expensive

They wanted to have a faster process, but they forgot the old adage "slow but steady wins the race" and "Haste makes waste" they managed to get the UAMC Out fairly quick considering the issues they had as evinced by my receipt of over 100 of those marines, plus the Gunny. Once they said they were making the new stuff, the bugs and Panzergrenadiers came to a halt. sadly.

To be fair, it took like 8 months of delays to get the UAMC figs out. I have a box of them, and I'm unsure why people think the detail is soft. They're excellent.

I'm just miffed I won't be getting heavy weapons for them (or if they do make them it'll be like 5 years from now). I have complete 28mm forces for near-future militaries for Russians, Germans, French, and was gonna use the UAMC figs for something (maybe some generic UN), but I need some heavy weapons support, mortars, etc.

SO in everyone's opinion, if the company were to endure, and it still might, would you rather they bang out more basic forces, or flesh out the existing three ranges?

Please, don't get me started on the Swamp Worms. They are nice as a scenario beast, but a full force of limp male parts isn't a majority of people's cup of tea, I would imagine.

I would love to get a UAMC set with mortars, 50cal/12.7mm machine gun on bipod/tripod, man-portable anti-tank rocket or missile launchers, and bits for the existing kit (radios, medipacks, laptops, etc).

But, but, but what about the projected Papal forces?

Yes, In the 23rd century, Paypal has now become a military force to be reckoned with!