I can understand that people are upset with Defiance. I certainly would be if I was waiting more than six months. Further, things do look kind of dire, as they did not respond to my requests to purchase miniatures.
These things being said, the current situation supports GWs contention not to provide info about new releases, and we all know how much we hate that policy.
If I placed an order, I would cancel it. Then there is no reason to be upset. We can all wait calmly for their releases.
Their foray into resin does not seem to have been a good one. I agree with shasolenzabi, that they should stick to what works.
Most people seemed to favor them to do the kickstarter. I was actually surprised by this, but several did mention cleaning up the remaining back orders before moving forward. They also seem to have other "projects" wrapped up, maybe they are trying to get ahead of the curve, but in doing so, have shot themselves in the foot.
I do not doubt that they would get backers if they were to start a KS, however I do not think we would see support at any sort of large scale, not with how they failed so many times to deliver product. Clean up the back orders and stay on top of the orders coming in (can't imagine there are that many) and release a set on time and then I would say do a KS to support those "under wraps" sets. I still won't back them until I see the plastic after they do the runs, no more renders or fuzzy pictures that hide the real quality (marine knees I'm looking at you).
I think people want this company to succeed which is why there is still such a high degree of fan boys and why the company hasn't tanked yet, but to KS right now would be the wrong thing to do.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: If they have stuff ready to go, why KS, though? If it is to essentially drum up a pre-order, we KNOW how bad they are with those.
"Hey guys pre order now! Release date is May 20idunnowhatyearisit?2013?okwe'llsaythat!13!"
I think that their concepts and prices are the reason people want them to succeed. I know I do. I want my battle eggs with shotguns. I know many think that the concepts differ from the production models, but that is actually quite common, in my experience. I believe we got something that was close to the concept, and after recieving my Gunny with the freebies I got, I have to say that the quality isn't nearly as bad as some people have been stating. All of my minis were clean with a bit of flash, no mold errors and the detail is what I expect at this price point. I honestly feel that the Germans are no worse than GW Cadians with the level of detail. They are a bit smaller than GW, but not enough so that you couldn't use them as guard replacements at a fraction of the price.
For the record, the reason they went with Troll Forge plastic is because Hard Plastic (high impact polystyrene) is very expensive -- something on the order of $20,000 per mold. Those Wargames Factory romans they released, with 4 different sprues? $80,000 or more to produce. The reason the Marine sprue was so small is because that's what they could afford (to my knowledge, no one at Defiance Games was aware of Kickstarter at the time, and Kickstarter hadn't really taken off in the minis industry until the money for the Marines had already been spent). The Troll Forge option is much cheaper and for better potential quality (aside from the experimental nature). As it is, for a small company they'd have to make a minimum of $20K is sales to finance a new sprue, plus more sales to cover paying people, taxes, rent, etc, etc, etc. It's a lot of money for a small business.
I actually think a better choice would have been to release the main set for a force in Hard Plastic and use Troll Cast for add-ons like special weapons, command options, heroes, and other bits and bobs that probably won't sell in huge numbers.
shasolenzabi wrote: I still say that once the issues with the marine sprues were worked, as evidenced by my marine order being fulfilled in a fairly timely manner. Once they had that down, they should have gone and stayed with it, as it had proven effective.
Sadly, for those waiting for bugs and german troops saw, instead a jump to other materials/tech that had more teething issues which has delayed the production/output past the projection till 2013 if that.
had they simply stayed with the plastics, bugs and possibly germans orders would have been filled by no later than say, October 2012.
I haven't been following them very closely... are there unfulfilled orders (any / a lot?) that they've taken money for?
Xeno wrote: For the record, the reason they went with Troll Forge plastic is because Hard Plastic (high impact polystyrene) is very expensive -- .
And yet even that method was too "expensive" for them was it not? (going to troll forge directly anyways, who's successful KS will likely blow their swamp worms out of the water)
Found a quote from TMP that seems to sum up those people against the KS (which may also be applicable to somewhat similar KS like Mierce depending on your position)
I don't like to hate on companies, but based on the history of Defiance Games this Kickstarter would be a definite no-go for me. A Kickstarter should be used to help put together a project that's feasible but a little more than the company can handle at the moment. It should not be used as as an attempt to pull the company's rear end out of the fire.
Xeno wrote: For the record, the reason they went with Troll Forge plastic is because Hard Plastic (high impact polystyrene) is very expensive -- something on the order of $20,000 per mold. Those Wargames Factory romans they released, with 4 different sprues? $80,000 or more to produce. The reason the Marine sprue was so small is because that's what they could afford (to my knowledge, no one at Defiance Games was aware of Kickstarter at the time, and Kickstarter hadn't really taken off in the minis industry until the money for the Marines had already been spent). The Troll Forge option is much cheaper and for better potential quality (aside from the experimental nature). As it is, for a small company they'd have to make a minimum of $20K is sales to finance a new sprue, plus more sales to cover paying people, taxes, rent, etc, etc, etc. It's a lot of money for a small business.
I actually think a better choice would have been to release the main set for a force in Hard Plastic and use Troll Cast for add-ons like special weapons, command options, heroes, and other bits and bobs that probably won't sell in huge numbers.
It wasn't Tony's first exposure to this business. If he couldn't come up with an executable business plan and the needed capital that is on him. Yet from the start, all we heard was optimistic release schedules and promises of 'A New Release Every Month!' or something similar. If he knew he couldn't capitalize enough to do that he should have promised goals he had a chance of meeting. None of the expenses or processes should have been a major surprise to him when he started Defiance.
Synthetik wrote: What I want are the womderful worms. I got a sample in the bugs boxes I received and I could go through loads of the worms...
I cant fault there Marines , they are superb , but its just all the false starts I have had with them..
Ed from Trollforged is sculpting a whole new (and better) lot of worm for his KS (due to fillfill April) and after that they should be available to buy
that may be quicker than waiting for Defiance to get product in stores
shasolenzabi wrote: I still say that once the issues with the marine sprues were worked, as evidenced by my marine order being fulfilled in a fairly timely manner. Once they had that down, they should have gone and stayed with it, as it had proven effective.
Sadly, for those waiting for bugs and german troops saw, instead a jump to other materials/tech that had more teething issues which has delayed the production/output past the projection till 2013 if that.
had they simply stayed with the plastics, bugs and possibly germans orders would have been filled by no later than say, October 2012.
I haven't been following them very closely... are there unfulfilled orders (any / a lot?) that they've taken money for?
I'd like to say I knew for sure, but the Facebook page iust the only place you can see any complaints to count, they seem to have abandoned the defiance games website for the most part, it is being taken over by google ads whilst stating that comms chatter has been put under maintenance, which again does not look so good when a company does that. I know they have to concentrate on their business recovering, but they still have the website running for orders I would presume, and then they are fielding posts on facebook, overly optimistic as ever whilst folks are stating for them to get orders fulfilled before they head to KS. Also, while the hard-plastic and molds may be a issue, they at least had gotten those to work, so selling a ton of plastic marines may have helped first rather than switch horses mid race as they did.
Defiance has shown some great ideas, yet they have slipped behind the pack in the industry and that is painful to watch. Meanwhile WGF and their work alongside DFG is pushing ahead of the curve.
Xeno wrote: For the record, the reason they went with Troll Forge plastic is because Hard Plastic (high impact polystyrene) is very expensive -- .
And yet even that method was too "expensive" for them was it not? (going to troll forge directly anyways, who's successful KS will likely blow their swamp worms out of the water)
I'm just explaining Defiance's logic for the move. That doesn't necessarily mean it was a good idea or not.
Personally, I think it was a good idea but I agree with the general consensus that they should have spent the extra time making sure the stuff worked and worked well before releasing.
For the record, the first person on that Facebook thread saying "no"? That was me
Likely another idea delayed as they still have bugs and Panzergrenadiers to finish order fulfillment on before they can move ahead.
New trick, make hard plastics, bag them in ziplocks like Mantic, and use the left over sprues in the factory to make more minis, wash/rinse/repeat. that would cut down on the plastic costs a bit if they had gone that route. put said sprues in grinder machine, make them into chips, and melt down again to liquid state for moulds. Cant do the same with 2 part resin sadly.
Defiance needs to stop flailing about at all the shiny possibilities that are putting them in the hole and go for something that works to dig them out, get them on track, and then try new ideas as I have said before. Looking at my Marines, I was hopeful, looking at how slow bugs and PZG's have been, sorry, but the stuff did not work, go back to what does., get your reputation back on line as well as your productivity. I'd love to discuss the matter over beers with Tony face to face if I was not in both the state I live in and the state that my body is in.LOL.
the prices they were charging, even in hard plastics would have allowed volume sales to kick butt and gain them a solid rep as well as solid income.
Likely another idea delayed as they still have bugs and Panzergrenadiers to finish order fulfillment on before they can move ahead.
New trick, make hard plastics, bag them in ziplocks like Mantic, and use the left over sprues in the factory to make more minis, wash/rinse/repeat. that would cut down on the plastic costs a bit if they had gone that route. put said sprues in grinder machine, make them into chips, and melt down again to liquid state for moulds. Cant do the same with 2 part resin sadly.
Regrinding plastic sprue is a common practice in the industry. It is done by most all of the larger firms. The problem with this idea applied to DG is that they didn't do there production in house. They couldn't even if they wanted. The cost is to high. A plastic injection machine is about 100K new for a simple one. Add to that the cost of a regrinder (about 15K for a small one) and it is just to much for a small firm to deal with. You will also need to have an injection molding engineer on staff to set the machine for each mold.
I am sure that any sprue left at the factory after making the marines was reused by the factory. Defiance doesn't see any benefit from that though. It is already factored into their costs. So they spent at least 10 grand getting the molds done for the marines already, plus the cost of getting a minimum order of marines (usually a 100,000 sprues, sometimes less). I think Defiance made a good financial choice going with the resin. The costs are not even 10% of plastic to get started and the only added expense is additional labor cost.
The real mistake that Defiance made was not fully learning the resin manufacturing process before tet made time estimates. The learning curve is high and it has bite them hard. I think they are getting everything under control now, though. I believe we should see improvements from them going forward. And I will finally get my battle eggs!
As for learning curves being high, wouldn't it have been nice if Tony had had previous experience with a company that produced similar products so he could have gone through that curve before?
CptJake wrote: As for learning curves being high, wouldn't it have been nice if Tony had had previous experience with a company that produced similar products so he could have gone through that curve before?
Oh wait....
Probably mentioned this before but the biggest difference is that they dont have overseas shipping and chinese people to blame
Which should technically make things faster since its all state side.....
I'm in for the Mierce kickstarter, but I would not touch this with a bargepole. Mierce have gone some way to making good with some elements of the MG thing and this is a potential fresh start. Defiance on the other hand fill me with utter horror - a kickstarter from them will not end well.
I doubt we would see a kickstarter from defiance for sometime now. Given the current state of their reputation due to this debacle, they have a considerable amount of repair work to do before they could have even a slightly successful Kickstarter.
With the issue of Tonys experience and knowing how to do this...I got nothing. My best guess would be that they went with a plastics company that had no experience with minis. According to the messages from the plastic company, that was the case. They accepted complete fault on the delays of the marines. Once Tony got them, we had all orders filled, worldwide, in about 2 weeks. I know I got mine about 4 days after they started shipping them.
Maybe with this stuff not being produced in house, it is an area Tony doesn't have experience with? Maybe the underwear gnomes bribed the bridge trolls to get the gremlins to sabotage the equipment so that Tonys rep would be damaged, because Tony found out that the gnomes stole the socks that go missing in dryers to make a nuclear bomb out of pocket lint to sell to Iran so they could afford to pay off the Kebbler elves to support the well known gnomish cookie addiction? Who knows. It could happen.
Maybe with this stuff not being produced in house, it is an area Tony doesn't have experience with? Maybe the underwear gnomes bribed the bridge trolls to get the gremlins to sabotage the equipment so that Tonys rep would be damaged, because Tony found out that the gnomes stole the socks that go missing in dryers to make a nuclear bomb out of pocket lint to sell to Iran so they could afford to pay off the Kebbler elves to support the well known gnomish cookie addiction? Who knows. It could happen.
Likely another idea delayed as they still have bugs and Panzergrenadiers to finish order fulfillment on before they can move ahead.
New trick, make hard plastics, bag them in ziplocks like Mantic, and use the left over sprues in the factory to make more minis, wash/rinse/repeat. that would cut down on the plastic costs a bit if they had gone that route. put said sprues in grinder machine, make them into chips, and melt down again to liquid state for moulds. Cant do the same with 2 part resin sadly.
Regrinding plastic sprue is a common practice in the industry. It is done by most all of the larger firms. The problem with this idea applied to DG is that they didn't do there production in house. They couldn't even if they wanted. The cost is to high. A plastic injection machine is about 100K new for a simple one. Add to that the cost of a regrinder (about 15K for a small one) and it is just to much for a small firm to deal with. You will also need to have an injection molding engineer on staff to set the machine for each mold.
I am sure that any sprue left at the factory after making the marines was reused by the factory. Defiance doesn't see any benefit from that though. It is already factored into their costs. So they spent at least 10 grand getting the molds done for the marines already, plus the cost of getting a minimum order of marines (usually a 100,000 sprues, sometimes less). I think Defiance made a good financial choice going with the resin. The costs are not even 10% of plastic to get started and the only added expense is additional labor cost.
The real mistake that Defiance made was not fully learning the resin manufacturing process before tet made time estimates. The learning curve is high and it has bite them hard. I think they are getting everything under control now, though. I believe we should see improvements from them going forward. And I will finally get my battle eggs!
kenshin620 wrote: Meh I think I rather take my chances with Mierce at this point than Defiance
You can't compare them, Mierce is gaming another 28mm fantasy miniature game that uses only like 10 metal miniatures(we only have 50000 of those), but Defiance games is making a large(r) scale sci fi game that uses entire platoons/companies of plastic 28mm near future soldiers. Not very many of those; closest I can think of is Mantic but they're copying 40k so that doesn't count.
Now tell me, do you want another 28mm metal pseudo viking or minotaur or do you want a plastic this
kenshin620 wrote: Meh I think I rather take my chances with Mierce at this point than Defiance
You can't compare them, Mierce is gaming another 28mm fantasy miniature game that uses only like 10 metal miniatures(we only have 50000 of those), but Defiance games is making a large(r) scale sci fi game that uses entire platoons/companies of plastic 28mm near future soldiers. Not very many of those; closest I can think of is Mantic but they're copying 40k so that doesn't count.
Now tell me, do you want another 28mm metal pseudo viking or minotaur or do you want a plastic this
Personally, I want both
Mantic is copying 40k? If by "copying" you mean platoon-level gaming, I'd say both Warpath and Alien War are both "copies" of 40k then...
kenshin620 wrote: Meh I think I rather take my chances with Mierce at this point than Defiance
You can't compare them, Mierce is gaming another 28mm fantasy miniature game that uses only like 10 metal miniatures(we only have 50000 of those), but Defiance games is making a large(r) scale sci fi game that uses entire platoons/companies of plastic 28mm near future soldiers. Not very many of those; closest I can think of is Mantic but they're copying 40k so that doesn't count.
Now tell me, do you want another 28mm metal pseudo viking or minotaur or do you want a plastic this
1. Mierce makes Resin Minis, not metal
2. We WANT Plastic, we dont want a bunch of fake promises (Want Hardsuits? Dont worry, they'll come in July! Dont know which July though, maybe 2014?)
3. They both have extremely shaky beginnings of taking money, I think we can compare them. Especially since defiance was thinking of doing a KS which Mierce is doing already
Meanwhile I'm getting my plastic crack from Dreamforge on Monday from Mark's kickstarter....miniatures made in China by the company Tony blames for all his ills...relatively on time and, by all accounts of those that have already received their goods, high quality plastic miniatures...
Mantic is copying 40k? If by "copying" you mean platoon-level gaming, I'd say both Warpath and Alien War are both "copies" of 40k then...
Mantic is copying GW in that not a single idea of theirs hasn't come from a GW game. Dreadball is literally Bloodbowl in the future, Warpath is all bargain-bin versions of 40k armies, Kings of War is the same for Fantasy, and so on. Defiance is aiming for skirmish to 40k scaled battles, and while some of their models are definitely usable for 40k, they're not going for the throat with the IPs.
PresidentOfAsia wrote: Now tell me, do you want another 28mm metal pseudo viking or minotaur or do you want a plastic this
You will not get a plastic "that". You might, in the distant future, get an inferior design in an inferior material, but Tony & Co have provided two companies worth of evidence that they cannot do the concepts justice.
Mantic is copying 40k? If by "copying" you mean platoon-level gaming, I'd say both Warpath and Alien War are both "copies" of 40k then...
Mantic is copying GW in that not a single idea of theirs hasn't come from a GW game. Dreadball is literally Bloodbowl in the future, Warpath is all bargain-bin versions of 40k armies, Kings of War is the same for Fantasy, and so on. Defiance is aiming for skirmish to 40k scaled battles, and while some of their models are definitely usable for 40k, they're not going for the throat with the IPs.
Dreadball is literally Blood Bowl in the future...
hmm. I've been playing Blood Bowl since the early 1990's, in many many leagues, and I'm intimately familiar with the rules and setting. I've been playing Dreadball since I got my Kickstarter package. Since you are also familiar enough with Dreadball and Blood Bowl, could you care to explain to me how they are "literally" the same? I personally can "literally" find nothing about the two that are the same.
I'd also like to know how Kings of War is like Warhammer Fantasy at all? Having played a half-dozen armies in Warhammer Fantasy since waaay back when 4th edition came out 0 1992 ish?, and now having played Kings of War since I got my hardback KoW rulebook, I'm also pretty intimately familiar with both of those. See, I can't think of any similarities between the ruleset, other than perhaps they both use d6's. In fact, I can draw more parallels with Hail Caesar.
Now, I haven't played Warpath, so I can't comment on it being "bargain-bin versions of 40k armies", and I'm also not sure if by that statement you're referring to the rules or to the figures. From what I understand the rules are nothing like 40k. From what I see, their Marauders are basically Orks without hydrocephalic heads, sure...
Mantic is copying 40k? If by "copying" you mean platoon-level gaming, I'd say both Warpath and Alien War are both "copies" of 40k then...
Mantic is copying GW in that not a single idea of theirs hasn't come from a GW game. Dreadball is literally Bloodbowl in the future, Warpath is all bargain-bin versions of 40k armies, Kings of War is the same for Fantasy, and so on. Defiance is aiming for skirmish to 40k scaled battles, and while some of their models are definitely usable for 40k, they're not going for the throat with the IPs.
Wait, people never realized mantic was copying the heck out of GW?
I mean, I'll admit I can be clueless at times but really?
That said, their version of squats are pretty cool, and have almost gotten me to buy into it several times. Only through extreme effort of will have I resisted so far...
I'm right there with you, MrMoustaffa. The Forgefathers and the Veer-Myn are the two factions that are very characterful and, imho, specifically aimed at taking advantage of age old demand from GW fans.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have we actually run out of stuff to say about Defiance?
Automatically Appended Next Post: They said on Facebook that they got hacked, with Google ads appearing on their website (which I never even saw) but that...wait for it.... new stuff is on its way!
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I'm right there with you, MrMoustaffa. The Forgefathers and the Veer-Myn are the two factions that are very characterful and, imho, specifically aimed at taking advantage of age old demand from GW fans.
I have to say I like their Forge Fathers _a lot_. For a long time I was sad I had sold my Squat army. But really, Squats kinda sucked anyway. I had cool nordic powered armor troops, guys in flak vests and goggles, and then bikers on trikes. WTF kind of aesthetic cohesion was that? It was terribly fun to play back in 2nd edition 40k though.
Defiance Games is doing well for a miniature company that started off without a kickstarter, I'll definitily contribute to their kickstarter should they do one as long it means they release the hardsuits faster.
What I meant is that they had a strong start with the Marines
They had their issues, but far less with the marines, I have stated that had they stuck with what they got to work that they may be on firmer ground, have less people upset with them and be off to making profitability and fulfilled their orders closer to on time than almost a year away from promised dates. By switching horse midstream, they have lost much. Their reputation is shot, they have delays backlogged and they have more teething problems for the different material.
I got my Marines and Gunny in a timely manner, then suddenly they declared they were going a new route with the bugs and Germans, and then it all went crappola. hence why I am not holding my breath for the hard-suits as they need to get old orders settled.
kenshin620 wrote: If they are doing well, I will hate to see them doing bad
"Hey guys, little problem with the new hardsuits: they're on fire. Not to worry, we'll still be shipping out on time."
"Another update for you: for some reason, the delivery truck is on fire. We're not sure yet what happened, but it might take longer to get your models out to you."
I've liked Defiance's art, but their miniatures end up looking very meh . The thing that actively makes me dislike them as a company, however is that there is always someone else to blame for what is wrong. Compare this to another recent start up company, who when there is a hiccup in the process, comes right out and says 'sorry guys, my fault, this is what happened, this is how we are going to fix it, we learned something and will try not to let it happen again'. Yes I'm talking about Dreamforge here. KS or no KS.... he takes ownership for mistakes. Defiance passes the buck at every opportunity. I'd bet they haven't done a KS because they know there isn't enough consumer confidence in their ability to deliver.
Mantic are very much trying to be GW lite. If 25 percent of the miniatures they sell, other than Dreadball, get used for their own rules I would be immensely surprised. That said I really like the look of many of the Forgefathers and Veer-myn. Great stuff there. They are obviously scratching an itch many people had.
Doing well? Seriously? My UAMC marines arrived 6 months late, my bugs arrived 5 months late, and the June/July 2012 roadmap is now 8 months behind. And people who paid for their bugs the same time as me still haven't gotten them! How about the people who paid for the "Now Shipping" panzergrenadiers who are also still waiting?
No, nonono, they are NOT doing well. The only reason they have any goodwill left on the planet is because that Gary dude is working for free to help fix their public image.
Let me also say I started off supporting Defiance 100%, preordering my UAMC back in 2011 or whatever and feeling awesome I was supporting a 100% made in America company. They've spend the last year slowly grinding away support so now they're basically an anecdotal joke.
Mantic are very much trying to be GW lite. If 25 percent of the miniatures they sell, other than Dreadball, get used for their own rules I would be immensely surprised. That said I really like the look of many of the Forgefathers and Veer-myn. Great stuff there. They are obviously scratching an itch many people had.
I'd agree with that first statement for the first few years of Mantic's existence, but it's pretty obvious that since their KoWKS, they are moving away from that image pretty rapidly. Kings of War is (imho) a superior ruleset to WHFB8 and Mantic is making models that have no GW analog anymore (Orc Fight Wagons? Dwarves riding giant badgers? A whole army of angels?) In my gaming club we went from 6 WHFB players to 7 Kings of War players and 0 WHFB players (we picked up a non-fantasy player just because the rules are so tight).
Mantic is copying 40k? If by "copying" you mean platoon-level gaming, I'd say both Warpath and Alien War are both "copies" of 40k then...
Mantic is copying GW in that not a single idea of theirs hasn't come from a GW game. Dreadball is literally Bloodbowl in the future, Warpath is all bargain-bin versions of 40k armies, Kings of War is the same for Fantasy, and so on. Defiance is aiming for skirmish to 40k scaled battles, and while some of their models are definitely usable for 40k, they're not going for the throat with the IPs.
Dreadball is nothing like bloodbowl unless you consider being an 'american football-like boardgame' as being totally alike. I know this because I spent a miserable 2 hours playing dreadball with someone who basically KEPT complaining during those 2 hours how bloodbowl did this, bloodbowl did that etc, how in bloodbowl you can totally shut down people etc etc, how letting people roll at least one dice is too RNG etc etc. -_-
And, Defiance Games going well? Yeah, I like the people, but even I'm of the opinion they're running on fumes. If they could get the hardsuits out without a hitch, I think they'll be able to do okay, but I don't know if they'll be able to stay in business that long. Hope so; I really like the hardsuit design.
Mantic is copying 40k? If by "copying" you mean platoon-level gaming, I'd say both Warpath and Alien War are both "copies" of 40k then...
Mantic is copying GW in that not a single idea of theirs hasn't come from a GW game. Dreadball is literally Bloodbowl in the future, Warpath is all bargain-bin versions of 40k armies, Kings of War is the same for Fantasy, and so on. Defiance is aiming for skirmish to 40k scaled battles, and while some of their models are definitely usable for 40k, they're not going for the throat with the IPs.
Dreadball is nothing like bloodbowl unless you consider being an 'american football-like boardgame' as being totally alike. I know this because I spent a miserable 2 hours playing dreadball with someone who basically KEPT complaining during those 2 hours how bloodbowl did this, bloodbowl did that etc, how in bloodbowl you can totally shut down people etc etc, how letting people roll at least one dice is too RNG etc etc. -_-
I'd say it's more like hockey-basketball with 3 goals per side.
Dreadball reactions vary wildly. Most of my BB league has played DB and loved it. Finishing a game in 1/3 the time is really nice too.
Well I enjoy some good Mantic bashing like the next guy, but this is the official Defiance Games thread. Please keep the Mantic bashing to the Mantic threads where it belongs
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Again, we like the design, but will the finished product represent it faithfully?
And I agree, my flagging enthusiasm is directed at the company itself, I'm convinced they're pretty good guys around a BBQ with a brewski.
Well, the minis they've released have resembled the renders, even if the renders don't necessarily match the concept art, so take a look at the renders from upthread. They seem to match well.
And I'm totally going to make the one with eight missile launchers and the gurren lagan glasses
I've ordered from Defiance games and I wouldn't recommend it.
It wasn't terrible, but three months after I ordered my product I hadn't received anything. I emailed and basically got a chain of him lying to me.
The first response was: "They'll ship next week!"
The next response was: "We'll be shipping them in two weeks!"
The next one three weeks later: "We'll be shipping them in a month"
Next one: "We'll be shipping them in a month"
When I complained on their forums I was told I had pre-ordered (Even though the web page said nothing about this, apparently before ordering from their shop I should have gone to the forum and checked. I didn't realize that when you order from stores online you should check their forums first to see if they actually have the product they are selling...
They were sort of quick with the refund when I asked after placing the order and not having it ship for three months. So I guess that's a plus? If you get the runaround for three months and then they'll refund your money!
Seem like good guys, but over promise and have way too much trouble filling orders.
Pretty much the case, nice guys with a lot of enthusiasm, which leads to setting goals that turn out to be harder to reach than first realized.
I got my massive order for over 100marines and gunny, they got it to me fairly quick compared to others. But the issues with the bugs and Germans made me pause and I saw as much as I wanted battle-eggs, they were not gonna be here when they promised.
I just hope they get their stuff straight and work on rebuilding their reps and making sure that stock is made and on hand for filling orders to help with that and then they can go on from there.
Well according to their FB, they are working
No real dates though
March 6
We're really excited here right now. Over the next week we're going to be putting some new equipment in place that will REALLY help move things along and we're also interviewing people to get some additional help in place. On top of that I've just been reviewing some of the new designs that are being worked on for the next sets!
Meanwhile - Germans continue to roll out - and once we have the rest of it in place we have some ideas on how we can revisit the molds with Ed to help speed them up for the long term as we put out the new sets that have been designed specifically for the new plastic process.
No promises, no dates - but things are going good here and I just wanted everyone to know! - Tony
Remember this guy? Alex has been working on the orthos and we like what we're seeing. We have a TON to do in the meantime including getting Bugs and Germans out to distribution but this big guy is on the list!
they get the 'marine' hard suits or those 'german' walkers into production and actually deliver them to game stores & distributors I'm still interested in taking a look, but I'll have to see the actual product myself before buying it
1/35, so probably a bit bigger than desired for 28mm use. Also, $60/€46 just to get two of those battle eggs is going to be a bit rich for most of us, sadly.
Shame - I'd really, really like a bunch of those battle eggs but that really won't happen anymore.
In the mean time I'm going to hold onto the 3 Tau Stealth suits that I have as a "Plan B". As much as I'd love to see the hardsuits, nothing at this point tells me that it's a sure bet that they will see the light of day.
The model linked to above is a pretty cool one. even though it's 1/35, it would look great alongside 28mm figs as a fighter or light lander, and the hardsuits would look fine as slightly larger hardsuits or small mechs.
Here's a 1/35 MAK in the middle flanked by 28mm figs. I think the small hardsuits are from eureka
http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=19437.0
1/35 can be a good scale when dealing with sci-fi models. Here's the Gasaraki mech with a few minor modifications that I use for 28mm. Apologies to those who have seen it before.
that antenocitis model is on the large side of 32mm, I believe (but a hardsuit like that scales quite nicely to 28mm as well).
The bigger issue is the GBP16 pricetag. Building a unit or two from that is not really an option, which is why there's still a lot of us kind of hoping for DFG suits (through distribution of course - I ain't stupid ).
If you register on the site you can get a unit of 5 for $18 CAD (11.67 GBP) per model with free shipping, and the VAT knocked off - which isn't a bad price here in Canada (where we generally get a friendly 15-30% mark up on hobby stuff despite our currency being on par with the US).
From the Facebook entries flying all over the place:
"Of the next four releases, 3 are for existing Forces, 1 is for a brand new Force."
The comments also seem to imply that they are 3D printing right now and will wait until those are done before they show off anything. Smart, smart move if you ask me.
Also, new equipment is being built and put in place to streamline the Bugs' and Germans' production. They still have not caught up to Bug production, but they should be sending stock to stores soon.
The German walker is getting rendered, apparently.
Absolutionis wrote: It's rather large. Shouldn't they get their infantry-sized models perfected and plentiful before metaphorically tackling bigger metaphoric fish?
It might actually be easier to do a large object, assuming they don't try to go hyper-detailed. Bigger, deeper details are easier to cut into a mold than tiny ones, and less likely to vanish due to air bubbles.
Or, at least, that's my assumption.
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CptJake wrote: It is an interesting design choice to pose the 'toes' of the foot as if the leg is lifted vice flat on the ground supporting the weight.
Since this leg is single piece, I'm hoping there'll be other options. It'd suck to have your huge honking centerpiece-of-the-army robots all looking exactly the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And he couldn't resist taking a snipe at Dreamforge Games. That kinda makes me not so eager to buy anymore.
That was a bit of douchebaggery, I refrain from critically commenting on other manufacturers because its simply in bad form. If I have a negative opinion I keep it to myself but I will praise others hard work. I don't know if it was meant a friendly jibe but I did find it an unnecessary comment. I think it was more a defensive comment about the static pose nature of their kit compared to the dynamic pose of my kit? as to the other comments about 'technology' yeah... I use 'technology' as well and have had ALL my kits printed at one point or other.
Nothing wrong with a static pose kit, I have made several myself, it keeps the cost down and deals with a lot of the order fulfillment issues but to bash my kits in defense of a choice they are making? Whatever.....
Considering his(the owners) snippy attitude towards someone who asked an innocent question about if it was possible to assemble the mech in mulitple poses, I'm not surprised he would take a jab at dreamforge
RiTides wrote: That looks like a 3D printed, not cast, leg to me.
That is a print, the support structure nubs are still there on the print face. Its a latticework that supports the structure while being printed when you snap them off it leaves those little bumps on the surface. You can see some of that latticework still attached under the knee area.
Sining wrote: Considering his(the owners) snippy attitude towards someone who asked an innocent question about if it was possible to assemble the mech in mulitple poses, I'm not surprised he would take a jab at dreamforge
I wasn't thrilled by it either (that being me who asked) nor the snipe at Dreamforge. Tony Reidy's customer service skills leave something to be desired.
Absolutionis wrote: It's no Romeo-rage, but it's still unnecessarily 'snippy'.
Defiance also haven't spent years establishing and delivering market leading product. Any level of snip directed towards 'fans' is absurd. The fact that they have cheerful fans posting any comments at all on FB is pretty stunning to me.
Seems pretty consistent with their "all our issues are everybody's fault but ours" attitude though.
"We don't want to drone on about slide tooling and other nonsense that results in plastic parts you have to SCREW together!"
Quite frankly, the best coming from Defiance Games is that they started a War of Spanish Succession range which Wargames Factory has successfully continued and expanded upon. The rest is about extended release schedules and not quite so cool models. Sniping at Dreamforge while Dreamforge has released such magnificent minis (which btw Defiance just don't match) and is consistent with releases and such is just poor form to say the least. If I get to spend money in one of both companies, it will be Dreamforge for sure. Defiance, not in any case.
Photos of some of the 3D printed parts. They said there will be three right and left leg options, a chin-mounted gun, and a secondary weapon option for one of the arms.
...Meh. Even *if* DFG manages to cast that up decently it's... retro... to say the least. Looks like some not-even-halfway decently updated RT era walker, scaled up. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, though.
I'm torn between my *middling* desire for mechs on my table (and I've been thinking about replacing my Sentinels) and I can't get over Tony's abrasive comments.
I mean, really. I like some artists' products without agreeing with, say, their political position... but he just wubs me the wong way.
I'm supposed to be one of the arch-Defiance Games fanbois but even I'm not going to order until I see the finished product in the box.
For me, the question is why they didn't just make the leg into multiple parts rather than putting six legs per mech in the box? Sure, it's more fiddly to assemble a multi-part leg, but think about all that extra molding and box space!
Nothing of their's ever became local. I have to get all of it from the warstore, at a 25$ shipping premium, minimum. Their offer to ship anything for free if above 100$ is alluring, but not with their track-record firmly in mind.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Nothing of their's ever became local. I have to get all of it from the warstore, at a 25$ shipping premium, minimum. Their offer to ship anything for free if above 100$ is alluring, but not with their track-record firmly in mind.
$25 shipping?! Jeez, that sucks.
I don't even have a local game store. I get everything by mail order or at the local Wal-Mart (which this town didn't even have 7-8 years ago). It's always something of a treat to leave town and actually get to -- ermagerd -- go into a real live game store!
Here's one with their G.O.T. Figures, which IIRC are comparable to Inifinity in size.
I've been meaning to ask, for anyone who has one of those hardsuits, how much of it is metal? I can't really tell from the pic, but this makes it look like resin, not metal.
Barzam wrote: I've been meaning to ask, for anyone who has one of those hardsuits, how much of it is metal? I can't really tell from the pic, but this makes it look like resin, not metal.
And that 25$ is the minimum, it goes up quickly to 55$.
That AW Komodo suit is looking better and better. I could really see it with Paulson Games weapons on the arms.
plastictrees: No, the German walker was not on their "optimistic" timeline. Meanwhile, the UAMC heavy weapons, command squads, female marines are stil MIA.
I remember being interested in these way back when the thread started, but it seems the things I would have been interested in are still far out a year and a half later. This combined with the incredibly unprofessional and ignorant attitude shown by the company towards some of their competition, and in addition to their numerous failings on delivering product, it appears I will need to scratch them off my list to watch.
DOGGED wrote: I thought the snipe at Dreamforge Games was this:
"We don't want to drone on about slide tooling and other nonsense that results in plastic parts you have to SCREW together!"
Seriously? Wow. The left leg of the Leviathan Crusader has more technicality, detail, thought, and precision than the entire product line from Defiance. To me it comes off as someone whos a bit butthurt that they didnt produce an absolutely game changing model like Dreamforge did.
I really like the renders for the hard suits, but with all the other issues with this company, and the less than good product produced so far...Im likely to pass over them.
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DOGGED wrote: If you want cool alternative sentinels you can't go wrong with Grymn ones from Hasslefree.
They do look excellent, and Im likely to purchase some in the near future.
I still don't get why they have to include six legs. For that many pieces, why don't they just have the leg itself in three or six pieces Surely the toes would be swappable and the main leg bits could be as well. Hellion Productions did it with their 1/60 Dictator CAV model.
But then again, a LOT of things about Defiance Games don't make sense.
It really is telling that Wargames Factory started putting out better and better stuff after these jokers left. Everyone is raving about their new Zombie survivor set.
I was down for Hudson's Bugs, until I saw they were cast in that weird plastic-resin and the bases were terrible. How much could a sprue for plastic 30mm bases cost? Like $10K? That's not that much, on the business end of things.
I had mine pretty jazzed about the marines, but then they saw that it was their only product. By the time Christmas rolled about, they said that with their production problems, they're too fishy to deal with.
...God, that's a lovely model. Now why can't it be in the hands of someone somewhat competent? oh well, if they ever hit distribution I sure as hell will get a bundle. 4 for $25 was the original planned price, I believe?
Bolognesus wrote: ...Good lord, he's really 'round the twist by now, isn't he?
In fairness, I did wind him up a bit, but at this point he must be feeling the stress. According to Wai Kee Hu, the guy who bought him out, Wargames Factory was never profitable and always ran in the red. At this point Defiance must be going down in flames.
I don't think he's a bad guy, just a poor businessman. He certainly doesn't understand that you really shouldn't show off product until its boxed up, and ready to go out the door. GW has the policy, and I think they developed it over the years. They announced Battlefleet Gothic back in the 80s, and never came through on it. They named Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader only because they had been promising something named Rogue Trader.
I think it's been a good policy. I'm not sure design-by committee is the way to go. You avoid some errors and get more militarily-accurate models, but then everyone has to stick their oar in.
GW keeps things a secret, but they hire good sculptors. Defiance doesn't, they go the cheapest route possible (China) then act surprised when it blows up in their faces.
GW's keeps things a secret, but hires good staff. They've rarely been surprised, although the response to the Minotaurs, Stormraven and DA flyers was decidedly negative. But most responses are positive, the DE look good, most of the new DA look good, the Hobbit looks good (despite its price) and the Daemons of Chaos look good. Their hit-to-miss ratio is very good.
Defiance should have the benefit of experience, but they keep making the same mistakes over and over again. They should just make a box set, stock some box sets, and sell the box sets, not string customers along with goofy pre-orders that take forever to pan out.
Remember, the Reidy-run WGF only took on extra funding so they could accelerate their release schedule. That was the fatal mistake, but if you believe Wai Kee Hu, the company was never profitable. Each release funded the next. A lot of video game studios run like this. IMO, they would have been better off keeping a slow-but-steady release schedule and hope that eventually addt'l sales from boxes already released would add to sales, but they decided they wanted to do twenty things at once, and it blew up in their face, when China screwed them.
To be honest Chris, and I respect you very much... you weren't quite as, ah, diplomatic about it, shall I say? I salute your "forwardedness" but knowing how Tony responds to much lower levels of criticism... did you really expect anything else?
Mathieu Raymond wrote: To be honest Chris, and I respect you very much... you weren't quite as, ah, diplomatic about it, shall I say? I salute your "forwardedness" but knowing how Tony responds to much lower levels of criticism... did you really expect anything else?
Like I say, I wound him up a bit, but at this point, he must know his reputation is shot, and there's a certain percentage of fans that will never buy direct, only from a retailer.
He's just a bad businessman, endlessly crowing about every step of progress his company makes.
It's fine to take pride in your work, but when delays have gone on that long, people take these releases the wrong way.
If he was really smart, he's scare up $10K and make a sprue of 30mm bases, to solve the Hudson's Bugs problem. Nobody makes 30mm bases in that style.
But I don't think he can raise any money now, with his reputation.
Also, I've heard that Mongoose Publishing is having its own problems, with its own poor repuattion. Distributors are deliberately "forgetting" to stock their product, unless a retailer begs them to. Their latest spaceship releases are not on shelves.
Honestly, he could get a sprue made for a lot less... look at Proxy Models or... that other company making 2 types of bases. You can have a small garage plastic injection kit working all afternoon making bases will you cast the bugs.
3D print (so not final cast) of the marine battlesuit
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they can cast it decently at the price they originally planned I'm certainly going to be getting some
fingers crossed they've sorted out their issues
WOW that is a good model. If that is really being sold at 8 for 30 at that level of quality with multiple pose options, I think it's a near-guaranteed buy for me, and I don't even play any system where it can plausibly be used.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Honestly, he could get a sprue made for a lot less... look at Proxy Models or... that other company making 2 types of bases. You can have a small garage plastic injection kit working all afternoon making bases will you cast the bugs.
That's what kills it. His problems are so fixable for just a small amount of cash. he just doesn't have the cash, and with his reputation, doesn't have a hope in hell of raising it.
I really think the "kickstarter" post was trying to get interim funding.
Hiring a sketch artist or a 3D modeller doesn't cost that much, even with how new the technology is. He should work on some upcoming designs, and let fans vote on it.
Splitting attention between 15mm mecha and 28mm models is dumb as well.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: To be honest Chris, and I respect you very much... you weren't quite as, ah, diplomatic about it, shall I say? I salute your "forwardedness" but knowing how Tony responds to much lower levels of criticism... did you really expect anything else?
With all due respect, that shouldn't matter one bit. Hell, anyone who's ever worked a week of retail knows *never* to treat any customer like tony does - however obnoxious they might be. And Chris, however abrasive he can be at times, barely even registered on the "annoyed consumer" scale.
This goes double when communicating via some public forum, let alone when it's recorded for public view such as on facebook. Anyone who still does gak like this misses even the smallest vestiges of business sense...
Bolognesus: I don't disagree with anything you said. Trust me, I co-own a retail store (not gaming, sadly) and I know how crucial customer relations are. I did say I admired his being so forward with someone not known to take it well.
I couldn't be bothered, at this point, honestly. I'm not even sure I want to see him succeed in his business endeavour. I want those eggs, but are they crucial to my gaming plans? Nope.
I keep hoping that he'll see the light, though, and buckle down, make good decisions and turn out a quality product and then, I don't know, maybe lift him out of this bad spiral he seems to be on.
I mostly hope DFG pulls through for the sake of the folks who preordered stuff from them, so they don't get burned. Those eggs would be a nice bonus
But really, he's been at it for years without showing any sign of improvement. If he still doesn't have a clue now (and really, he doesn't) then it won't hit him anymore either. Ever.
You know you love me. Seriously, what would you guys do without my witty and insightful commentary?
Bolognesus wrote: I But really, he's been at it for years without showing any sign of improvement. If he still doesn't have a clue now (and really, he doesn't) then it won't hit him anymore either. Ever.
This. I don't think he's a bad guy, just a poor businessman, and the stress is getting to him.
GBL wrote: Wow, I wish he got snippier. I am surprised he kept responding. Also: multipart leg kits DO suck on mecha.
Uh-oh, better tell that to Ban-Dai. They've been making Gundam Wing models wrong for the last 33 years! Instead they should have just included fifty thousand variation of a one-piece leg!
Is there any reason that you constantly trash Defiance and apparently harass them on their own FB page? Most of your contributions here don't seem very productive.
GBL wrote: Wow, I wish he got snippier. I am surprised he kept responding. Also: multipart leg kits DO suck on mecha.
Uh-oh, better tell that to Ban-Dai. They've been making Gundam Wing models wrong for the last 33 years! Instead they should have just included fifty thousand variation of a one-piece leg!
Bandai kits are made for display. You assemble them, then put them on a shelf. They don't hold the pose you put them in if you move them around on the tabletop.
Has there been any word on what material the power armor will be made of? Please, please, not Trollcast! Here's hoping for good old fashioned styrene...
Kingsley wrote: Is there any reason that you constantly trash Defiance and apparently harass them on their own FB page? Most of your contributions here don't seem very productive.
LOL. Hey, I like their stuff, kinda, I'm just realistic about my chances of actually seeing these kits. Or seeing them produced in a professional manner, not plastic-resin farted into molds and warped bases everywhere.
This is a public message board. People discuss things. Not every opinion will be bright and happy and rainbows and unicorns. Accept it.
I'm not saying only positive opinions should be accepted. I myself am often critical of new releases. But hassling someone on their public Facebook page and then crowing on Dakka about making them mad seems to go beyond that.
Dr Mathias wrote: Has there been any word on what material the power armor will be made of? Please, please, not Trollcast! Here's hoping for good old fashioned styrene...
I'm pretty sure their using their "semi bootleg" trollcast for everything now
Kingsley wrote: I'm not saying only positive opinions should be accepted. I myself am often critical of new releases. But hassling someone on their public Facebook page and then crowing on Dakka about making them mad seems to go beyond that.
Screws fall out all the time. The world's an imperfect place.
They have a reputation. They've earned it.
Water seeks its own level. People treat them with the respect they deserve.
Ghost Studios is either really bad at sabotage or really good at sabotage. They apparently sabotaged Tony's company so hard that Tony's next company was still feeling it.
The base problem was fixed. Ed Fortae of Troll Forge admitted that was his fault -- a poor design choice that won't be fixed -- and the bases for the Germans were just fine; the entire kit was mostly decent, if unexciting. There really is no need to invest in an expensive sprue and equipment just to make bases where there are dozens of places to get them from cheaply (I'm still working through the packs of econo-bases I bought from Gale Force), especially when the technology they have (Troll Cast) really does work just fine.
Also, the Mech is intended for 28mm. Defiance doesn't, to my knowledge, have ANY plans to target the 15mm market. Maybe indirectly, but us 15mm mans are used to kit-bashing anything we can get our hands on. Hell, I keep eyeing Space Marines and wondering how they'd look as 15mm battlesuits
Kingsley wrote: I'm not saying only positive opinions should be accepted. I myself am often critical of new releases. But hassling someone on their public Facebook page and then crowing on Dakka about making them mad seems to go beyond that.
Screws fall out all the time. The world's an imperfect place.
They have a reputation. They've earned it.
Water seeks its own level. People treat them with the respect they deserve.
AlexHolker wrote: Ghost Studios is either really bad at sabotage or really good at sabotage. They apparently sabotaged Tony's company so hard that Tony's next company was still feeling it.
HA HA HA, I love this thread so much I wish I could box it up and take it home with me.
Xeno wrote: The base problem was fixed. Ed Fortae of Troll Forge admitted that was his fault -- a poor design choice that won't be fixed -- and the bases for the Germans were just fine; the entire kit was mostly decent, if unexciting. There really is no need to invest in an expensive sprue and equipment just to make bases where there are dozens of places to get them from cheaply (I'm still working through the packs of econo-bases I bought from Gale Force), especially when the technology they have (Troll Cast) really does work just fine.
You can't just "buy" 30mm bases, no-one makes them in that style. Spending $10K (or less as some have said would have been a wise use of company funds. But hey whatever, let's just make a ton of poorly cast warped bases outta trollcast, whatever, that works too.
Xeno wrote: Also, the Mech is intended for 28mm. Defiance doesn't, to my knowledge, have ANY plans to target the 15mm market. Maybe indirectly, but us 15mm mans are used to kit-bashing anything we can get our hands on.
If it's 28mm I'll believe you, but I distinctly remember them saying it was 15mm, and oh yeah, you can use it for 28mm, sorta.
Xeno wrote: Hell, I keep eyeing Space Marines and wondering how they'd look as 15mm battlesuits
They look good, there's a FoW army that has them with West Wind heads and machine guns for weaponry.
Kingsley wrote: I'm not saying only positive opinions should be accepted. I myself am often critical of new releases. But hassling someone on their public Facebook page and then crowing on Dakka about making them mad seems to go beyond that.
Screws fall out all the time. The world's an imperfect place.
They have a reputation. They've earned it.
Water seeks its own level. People treat them with the respect they deserve.
Bolognesus wrote: I mostly hope DFG pulls through for the sake of the folks who preordered stuff from them, so they don't get burned. Those eggs would be a nice bonus
But really, he's been at it for years without showing any sign of improvement. If he still doesn't have a clue now (and really, he doesn't) then it won't hit him anymore either. Ever.
"Ok, need to get some glamour shots of our hot new release...oh, it's not fully painted yet....and all the way over there on that filing cabinet....*le sigh*....*click*...ok, back to getting mad about 'technology'".
It looks like everyone is dancing with their arms in the air like that.
Still not a fan of the giant robot. Its design is typical, the parts are static, and they jumped to vehicle-sized models before fine-tuning their infantry-sized models first.
What exactly is that picture supposed to show? That they keep their valuables locked up? That their display board is incredibly warped? They can't possibly be wanting to take a picture of the models right? Right? Someone was too lazy to get off their chair and just used a zoom button methinks...
On topic, that walker looks a bit naff. Granted you can hardly see it but I would have like something more along the lines of the Lost Planet Vital Suits
Well, we obviously can't tell very much from that awful photo, but from what I can see, things aren't looking too bright.
The legs obviously aren't held together by a ball/socket joint, implying a terrible sense of articulation, and the pelvis itself is oversized for no real reason.
Shame. I really loved the look of the "Crab" mech that this design was ripped from.
CptJake wrote: The picture is craptastic, but judging by what I can make out of the mech, they may have wanted it to be out of focus.
Good thing they are expending resources on this instead of getting paying customers the product they already paid for.
Not only that, but working on fixing production flaws too. Hell, it'll be a year or more before anything happens with this anyway , and it'll of course be someone elses fault for any 'issues'.
That photo is worse than my typical attempts and I can't take photo's of models worth a gak.
Apparently, getting a good quality picture is not in the cards.
While the picture tells us very little about the model, it unfortunately says alot about DFG.
What kind of company, with any sense of professionalism would put this picture up? Not only is it a poorly executed picture, it actually makes their product look worse! I can't imagine what their thought process was regarding what they are hoping to accomplish by putting it out there. Are they so desperate to keep people's attention that they will put anything out?
I realize that this post probably violates this maxim somewhat, but this picture is a prime example of why
"not everything that is said or done needs to be shared"
I'm really rooting for them to get the hardsuits done, but this just makes them look ridiculously unprofessional.
Defiance doesn't, they go the cheapest route possible (China) then act surprised when it blows up in their faces.
Since when is Defiance using a 'cheap' China route? Their Marines were tooled and produced in the US, their bugs were also molded and produced in the US...
Also, it isn't strange that a company isn't profitable in it's first couple of years. For (web) stores it's often more stock, buying instead of leasing equipment, or even buying instead of renting their store (or larger location, more locations, etc.). For a company like WGF it was a good idea to use the extended credit, because it would expand their range more quickly and thus repay the credit back faster (larger range, more customers, more revenue). The problem of WGF at the time was low quality sculpts (after the Dreamforge starter I totally lay that at the feet of WGF!), bad communication, promises not kept, horrible shipping delays and distribution. Not to mention that the captain of that boat would throw a hissyfit at every opportunity...
Under new management (and Chinese ownership) the sculpts are getting better, more consistent communication, no shipping delays, no promises that aren't kept (at least not that I have found) and best of all, no unstable ceo.
Well that's random. Instead of you, you know, finishing up the Marine, German, and Bug lines they're going straight to big, complex kits. Guess they didn't listen when I said "fill out the current ranges first before going onto the crazy stuff.
Well that's random. Instead of you, you know, finishing up the Marine, German, and Bug lines they're going straight to big, complex kits. Guess they didn't listen when I said "fill out the current ranges first before going onto the crazy stuff.
That model as a whole is jacked up. The detail on the binocular straps in particular looks extremely soft. On the other hand, whatever that big wheel is looks much better.
Kingsley wrote: That model as a whole is jacked up. The detail on the binocular straps in particular looks extremely soft. On the other hand, whatever that big wheel is looks much better.
After reading this comment I had to go back and look. That figure DOES have binoculars! I missed that lump the first time I looked.
I really wanted to like the panzergrenadiers , I really did, the concept art was awesome, and they looked like a high tech future military, but the actual models were underwhelming, the weapons had a nice look to them , but the bodies detail was very soft, noting really stood out, and the joining point between legs and torso were kinda problematic.
So much potential, but the tire in the pic is nice , I could use a couple dozen of those for some projects.
RiTides wrote: I'm baffled why people continue to stay so interested in what Defiance is doing, with their past record...
Me too but it's like a train wreck; I can't help but stop in and look when I see this thread pop up again and again with a succession of one terrible model after another.
I think we keep hoping for the Battle Egg in the warstore, one day.
So it stands to reason that if people are clamouring for them, they should delay them as much as possible and "scatter-shot" their approach to product release.
A guy: You would make a mint. I just bought the dream forge accessory pack to customize your troops and my imperial guard troops. No one except forge world has done a universal vehicle stowage set.
Defiance Games: Sounds like a bunch of useless stuff to have to paint to me. And how much does that six wheel thing cost?
Defiance Games: Just an aside but we didn't add gas cans because they don't run on it!
Defiance Games: When we do a turret vehicle we'll load up on more options. This guy gets four different heavy weapon options per box.
A guy: Sixty bucks for 6 wheel thing but you get detailed turret and a bunch of different gun options.
A guy: Constructive criticism. I own two boxes of marines and two boxes of panzer grenadiers so I'm trying to take a cheap shot here.
Defiance Games: You'll get two of these in a box for $29.95.
Defiance Games: Sounds like a bunch of useless stuff to have to paint to me. And how much does that six wheel thing cost?
Is it me, or is Defiance again sniping at Dreamforge for no other good reason but the fact that their kits came out of WGF? And can I please decide if I want to paint all that useless stuff or not?
I don't think they're necessarily sniping at Dreamforge, just not understanding how cool and useful stowage is. They changed their tack a little later in said conversation.
That's definitely a step forwards for Defiance Games. It's the same sort of vehicle I once envisioned for the UAMC, but they have succeeded - so far, at least - in producing it as a physical product, instead of screwing it up in the conversion from concept art to digital sculpt.
Could this facebook post indicate Defiance has finally got it's act together ?
taken at face value it would seem so
Defiance Games
Hello Everyone! We just cleared out a huge backlog of orders now that the production team is running at full speed. If you haven't received a shipping notice please contact us at sales@defiancegames.com and we'll track it down for you.
Looking at their latest photo, I think the vehicle could have done with being 10%-20% larger, but it's still damn good compared to the rest of their stuff.
AlexHolker wrote: Looking at their latest photo, I think the vehicle could have done with being 10%-20% larger, but it's still damn good compared to the rest of their stuff.
As you say, it could be larger for greater visual impact. I like my sci-fi vehicles BIG.
Still, it's perfectly in scale for a 28mm vehicle. The Defiance model looks to be a bit taller, but a touch narrower than a standard Hummer.
I just can't help but feel the doors are a smidge too small next to an infantry model. I don't think squirming is how you want to describe soldiers in full battledress coming out of their vehicle.
Well, I'll admit I do kind of like it. And I'll admit that I do like the concept design for the German mech. We'll see how they eventually turn out though once/if they reach production.
In other news, I FINALLY got my Germans shipped. I only ordered them back in October. You know, when they said they were in stock and shipping. At least I only needed to email them twice about it. But still, it shouldn't take nearly half a year to get something that was supposed to be in stock at the time. I hope to God that they've worked out the issues that plagued earlier versions of them. I'd rather not have an entire box of miscast, shrunken soldiers.
Hello Everyone! We just cleared out a huge backlog of orders now that the production team is running at full speed. If you haven't received a shipping notice please contact us at sales@defiancegames.com and we'll track it down for you.
(now on to the Hard Suits)
They got a bit snippy with me, when I questioned whether or not all the pre-orders have been sent out. Have they?
I think the reason the vehicle looks so small is because the models have bases that make them a little taller and make them look a little broader. It looks really nice though.
Brother SRM wrote: I think the reason the vehicle looks so small is because the models have bases that make them a little taller and make them look a little broader. It looks really nice though.
I get that, but it does seem to be a hair smaller than it should be.
scarletsquig wrote: ^ Tell him you're from frothers, Chris, he'll love you after you say that.
But I'm not though. Why, has Frothers forum just raked them over the coals?
"A UAMC squad "rolls up" on a small German detachment in their JRAB FAVs (Jack Rabbit Fast Armored Vehicles)
These will be available VERY SOON with two vehicles per set for $29.95"
For everyone saying I've been mean, I left a likewarm comment, " Two for $29.95 is a great price, although I'm wondering if Defiance games has a hazy definition of what "VERY SOON" means. I'd have to see more before I feel comfortable ordering."
If they were snippy, you snipped first. Honestly, I'm surprised they even let you post on their page.
I know I'm like a two-year old, can't take me anywhere.
But I've posted good things about their products in the past. I praised the marines when I saw them in different color schemes, and I praised the new vehicle as well. I just doubted their ability to get it out, which is a fair opinion.
And if they can't handle the bad, then they're not too good at this social media stuff.
The problem is that your tone is pretty nasty. Also, acting like a jerk and placing the onus on the other guy to "be the better man" is kinda childish, dontcha think?
Xeno wrote: The problem is that your tone is pretty nasty. Also, acting like a jerk and placing the onus on the other guy to "be the better man" is kinda childish, dontcha think?
He does it near constantly to anyone and everything, unless it's zombies.
I like checking in on Defiance like others to keep an eye on the trainwreck
Xeno wrote: The problem is that your tone is pretty nasty. Also, acting like a jerk and placing the onus on the other guy to "be the better man" is kinda childish, dontcha think?
Edited by AgeOfEgos
That's nothing. He must be aware of his company's reputation at this point, and how people see him on Frothers and TMP.
And I did post positive comments on some of his stuff.
It's not unfair to say I'll wait to see more, or that I'll only buy from a retailer when so many others are doing the same, based on their well-earned reputation.
Social media allows you to get feedback from fans, but surprise, surprise, feedback is not always positive. The book, MBA in a Nutshell points out most companies have a toll-free hotline. The hotline is technically free, but adds value to a company by letting them hear about complaints which may need to be rectified.
Social media allows you to have real-time interaction with customers and potential customers, but with it, come the potential for making a corporate faux pas.
Really I think Tony Reidy (or whoever is mannic their social media platform) is aware of the cash flow crunch this company must surely be feeling right now. My suggestion to spend a small amount of money out of pocket to fix the bases was a good one (if I do say so myself ) since no one in the market makes 30mm bases with the "GW-style" bevels. A small amount of money to fix a fairly serious ongoing problem, the quality of their castings. This is the one issue that's keeping me from buying their products, and I'm faintly certain I'm not alone. Those pictures of the bases looks woeful to me.
The Hudson's Bugs have such thin and spindly arms, and you need so many of them I don't know why they didn't just make them in plastic, aside from cost. They're good candidates since they are basic troopers, and need to be purchased in bulk.
Their reputation is also an issue. Like I said, they've earned their reputation, and people call them out on it. It will take some time of putting out quality product on schedule, without painfully dragging out pre-order times to repair the damage they've done to themselves.
For circumstantial evidence, look how the new Wargames Factory has started to put out quality product, on schedule, that people have responded favorably to, since Tony Reidy and friends left that company. This, plus the fact that Wai Kee Hui stated that the Reidy-run Wargames Factory was never profitable makes me believe it's Tony Reidy that's the issue, not Wargames Factory, and these responses on Facebook confirm it for me.
Oh, this trainwreck again. I can't believe people still give these jokers their money; it's like throwing it away.
I was going to buy a heap of Marines when they were first released but didn't when they were still preorder and the website said they were in stock. If you can't be bothered to keep your information straight, I can't be bothered to give you my money...and I'm now most certainly glad I didn't.
I agree with Chris in that Wargames Factory seems to be doing much better now without Tony than it ever did with him (witness the partnership with Dreamforge) which is another strike against Tony considering he can't even supply people with product they pay for.
agnosto wrote: Oh, this trainwreck again. I can't believe people still give these jokers their money; it's like throwing it away.
I was going to buy a heap of Marines when they were first released but didn't when they were still preorder and the website said they were in stock. If you can't be bothered to keep your information straight, I can't be bothered to give you my money...and I'm now most certainly glad I didn't.
I agree with Chris in that Wargames Factory seems to be doing much better now without Tony than it ever did with him (witness the partnership with Dreamforge) which is another strike against Tony considering he can't even supply people with product they pay for.
See guys, it's not all facebook snippiness and harping on about zombies, we really do have a point here.
AlexHolker wrote: Looking at their latest photo, I think the vehicle could have done with being 10%-20% larger, but it's still damn good compared to the rest of their stuff.
As you say, it could be larger for greater visual impact. I like my sci-fi vehicles BIG.
Still, it's perfectly in scale for a 28mm vehicle. The Defiance model looks to be a bit taller, but a touch narrower than a standard Hummer.
I disagree... my first thought was actually the old 40k ork trucks. It's too small / looks out of scale, imo...
RiTides wrote: I disagree... my first thought was actually the old 40k ork trucks. It's too small / looks out of scale, imo...
Meh, it seems wargamers' sense of scale is just fethed due to all kinds of heroic scale stuff... I mean, whenever I'm converting something, think the weapons look *way* too small (let's just say I'm... kitbashing across a bunch of ranges atm) and actually measure stuff to scale up the weapon to IRL sizes, see what it would correspond with, turns out the weapon in question usually still is too big. Vehicles are no different. the stuff being sold as 15mm gaming vehicles seems to jive best with 1/72 scale models in my experience - it should scale with 1/107 to be 'to scale' with the infantry. same thing here. I really think that car is quite okay. I mean, the roof reaches up to the head of the unhelmeted figure. how many cars do you know that do that? short of a hummer nothing really even reaches to my nose, usually (okay, I'm not exactly small but still... and of course the larger wheels/tires on such vehicles will account for some of this!) and although it's kinda hard to tell with this pic, it seems the vehicle scales to over five metres - which isn't all that small either. Remember: it's NOT supposed to be some friggin' MBT or whatever - it's an armoured patrol vehicle. four-seater, gun on top but that's it. Really, if they can get this into distribution, looking decently well cast and at competitive pricing, I'd pick up a couple in a heartbeat. dunno what for yet, but it just finally seems "right" for a change. (and really, go pick up some 1/56 figures of such vehicles from revel or sth like that - they look positively puny next to your heroic scale stuff too!)
Not that I like defending DFG - it's kind of leaving a sour taste actually, but that vehicle looks fine to me, after some consideration.
Yeah I think this is going beyond pointing out their flaws, and more about someone getting their jollies off trolling people over the internet. You need to grow up a bit Chris.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Maybe. But I just noticed the pink blob on the front... thingy at the bottom. Is that the mould already degrading?
Um ..... Yes! That pink blob on the front bumper is most certainly a piece of the mould material. I personally like the design, and if I hadn't gone for 3 of DFGs APCs, I would probably have wanted to go for something like this. If anyone is actually thinking of going for this one, I'd suggest you not leave it long as the earlier ones will undoubtedly be better than later ones - until they re-make a mould that is.
They are also, unfortunately, not the only company that has this sort of problem when making moulds though, so I'm not going to diss them for that and I have seen a LOT worse resin castings in my time. I've had problems ranging from prolific air bubbles in a resin SD "Robocop", lack of instructions and warped biscuit resin in a Japanese car kit, to complete lack of knowledge of the subject leading to innacuracies in a 1:1 scale resin weapon replica, to a completely innacurate Star Trek shuttle - not even proportionally correct. So this little piece of mould material is not terrible, providing the producer has noticed and done something about it!
Just a little thing about the scale of the vehicle with the minis in the picture, I don't know if everyone has had the "pleasure" of holding one in their hands, but they are a bit smaller. I wouldn't call them heroic. Maybe not true scale, but the proportions were closer to 28mm than 32mm. A Space Marine definitely feels beefy next to them.
The UAMC are pretty much the same size as Wargames Factory's plastic WW2 soldiers, or close enough that you can swap heads without much problem. I still think they are the best near-modern sci fi plastics around. I use them as SGC teams.
At this point, can we please stick to actual news and rumors about this company and their product, and leave all the other stuff to all those other sites?
The vehicle's scale looks fine imo. Looking at the size of the bases on the minis makes the truck look like it should be too small, but it is the correct scale.
If I could trust these guys to actually make a release, I'd probably order a few for RPG's or scenery in games. But I felt burned by the German release.
Okay, so I finally got my German Panzer grenadiers yesterday. Where to start? I suppose on the qc. Overall, the quality of my sculpts were alright. Not too many air bubbles or missing chunks, though I spotted a few small ones. I think the biggest issue with the sculpted on the guys I received is that their guns are bent and there's flash and mold lines. There were maybe one or two bodies that were slightly misaligned. Annoying, but more or less fixable. None of my guys were mangled like some of the examples that showed up in here though. I think Defiance may have gotten the shrinkage issue sorted out though. My guys seem to be in scale with my other True-scale 28mm figures. Now, the biggest issue I have with these figures is the material they're made out of. This is some sort of restic, isn't it? The "plastic" feels really weird. It's hard to describe. The best way I could describe it would be soapy. It has this odd, slightly slick,oily, soapy feel to it. I assumed this was mold release on the figures so I dunked them in Simple Green and scrubbed a couple down with warm and cold water. One of the ones, which was a kill marker felt kind of normal after that, but the other, a regular standing trooper still had that soapy feel to him. For some reason my super glue just did not want to bond with this material when I tried to glue his head on. His arms glued to the torso just fine though and his feet glued to the base without any problem, so I don't know what the deal was there. Lastly, I think quite possibly the biggest fault I have with these figures is that the sculptor was just a little too ambitious for the scale and the material. There's a lot of detail that seems to have been lost when they cast them in whatever material that is. It's kind of odd because the freebie gunner figure seems to be made with a slightly different mixture. He's using a much darker plastic and has a much crisper mold. A lot more of the detailing is present on him and is way more crisp than on the rank & file.
I think if they refined this just a bit more or ditched the restic for regular hard plastic these could actually be pretty nice figures. As it is, they're okay. You do get a lot for your money though, which is nice. I just wish Defiance had a more reliable timetable. I'm not sure if I'd get any more of their restic, but I'd absolutely like to get their UAMC Marines.
Sorry to see the amount of drama from this poor company and its customers.
I looked at them quite a bit for alternate Imperial Guard. Not a fan of the WGF trenchers. Wanted to like the Germans from DFG, but something was slightly off by them.However, after I got wind of the issues I just held back
. Here is my 2 cents, maybe the company and maybe others will look at this as what folks want.
I just got two bags of Imperial trenchers and Bauhaus trenchers from Prince August. 160 models fro 60+- USA bucks. 160 hard plastic models from 1998. Four poses. Hard plastic. Very difficult to to convert but doable. I'm loving the details on these per the price as well as the different options/poses I'm getting from converting, even though it is difficult.
Oh yeah Ireland to USA Westcoast = 10 days shipping for like 6 bucks. I got them in under two weeks.
These guys are from 1998 Heartbreak and while most of the Warzone stuff is cartoony, these guys are still relevant. I got 80 Imperial Guard models, 80 Traitor Guard for roughly $65 dollars.
Now. DFG or whoever company trying to get a foothold in the market; listen to that. These are not multi-part IG from GW with a million options, but they're convertible. Plus cheap. Plus look nice. Delivered quickly.
I DO like the APC that was posted. The scale looks off, but as shown, it is okay to scale. NO ONE that plays 40k should EVER bitch about that scale since GW has horrendous scale problems. Orks trukks, rhinos, etc.
Anyway, sorry that Defiance is having all these problems, maybe they need to take a breath and get it together. The APC looks good. But the infantry is bad compared to models from 1998.
In all fairness, though, the UAMC marines look good(The legs are admittedly very softly detailed, but it can be fixed with painting, sorta). More realistic, and better arms, than old Warzone plastics. And I use a ton of those as Chaos cultists, I swear by them as my cheap go-to mass for the slaughter.
True I guess, I haven't really seen the UAC guys up close. I was really impressed with the Warzone figs being that old. I guess my point is, there are probably a few gamers like me, not too much money to spend but a decent budget, looking for a cheap alternative to troops for IG.
I guess we need that gap that falls between ultra-detailed high quality troops for the armies that are including a slight amount of troops and those troop heavy armies where quantity matters. Or well, I was looking for the best looking troops that I could get for a cheap amount and found it in something fifteen years old. I'm still getting good results out of them as opposed to the WGFactory trenchers which look awful and have disproportioned legs, soft details, etc.
I think the market is looking for that kind of thing. Start ups should look to fill the GW replacement niches, all I'm saying.
I'm with you. I was happy with the WGF trenchers at first, until I had maybe 6 of them done, and then I couldn't wait for them to be all done and squared away. I'm still looking for someone to offload them on, I'm so disenchanted.
I guess we need that gap that falls between ultra-detailed high quality troops for the armies that are including a slight amount of troops and those troop heavy armies where quantity matters. Or well, I was looking for the best looking troops that I could get for a cheap amount and found it in something fifteen years old. I'm still getting good results out of them as opposed to the WGFactory trenchers which look awful and have disproportioned legs, soft details, etc.
I think the market is looking for that kind of thing. Start ups should look to fill the GW replacement niches, all I'm saying.
Some companies are moving kind of in that direction. 2 recent offerings, which -while not strait GW proxies- would have real possibility as such.
Khurasan : Federal Army (9 figs for 12 bucks) Released a week or so ago.
Reaper: Nova Corp Troopers (Likely between 1 and 2 bucks when they are released in Bones) Next month.
The reason Prince August can get away with selling the Warzone figures for so cheap is that the molds for those were made 15 years ago and have been paid for many times over. They can make and sell them for materials and shipping cost, basically, whereas any company trying to make hard plastic figures these days needs to foot the bill for a mold that can cost $20K+.
Which reminds me: I really, really need to order some of those Warzone figures. I've been meaning to for ages.
Prince August doesn't cast any Warzone stuff though. The moulds and masters for the old Warzone line were destroyed when Excelsior went under. And owning a few Prince August minis and a few originals, they certainly aren't recasts.
The reason PA can sell Warzone stuff so cheap is that when the game died (twice) retailers and distributors were dumping the stock as fast as they could and PA picked up tons of it on the cheap. Hell, most of the stuff they have now is loose and out of the blister.
But Prince August have no license from Paradox to cast Warzone figgies (and if they did it would definitely conflict with Prodos's license).
Warzone minis are cheap because the game died. Same reason you could find AT-43 stuff for, minimum, 75% off in the waning days. When a company is about to go under, retailers will scramble to get that stuff out of their warehouses. Prince August were just the lucky sods who saw an opportunity in it (certainly helped me out in allowing me to grab some stuff to fill my collection out after the second Warzone crash).
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I'm with you. I was happy with the WGF trenchers at first, until I had maybe 6 of them done, and then I couldn't wait for them to be all done and squared away. I'm still looking for someone to offload them on, I'm so disenchanted.
Huh, I still like mine. They're vastly improved by adding the plastic Bauhaus backpacks to 'em.
Uhhh, I just wanted to see if the War Store had the newest kit in stock, just to see if Defiance made good on the "available now" promise.
They are not even listed there anymore. I remember ordering my UAMC through them, and seeing the bugs in their catalog... any idea when this happened, and it TWS got as fed up as some of us?
If Defiance has not been able to ensure decent stock levels I can't imagine Neal at TWS listing them. I bet if you contact him he can special order them for you.
And then have Neal wait for them for months on my account? Nope, I know how bad I feel when one of my customer is waiting for too long, not an enviable position.
I don't think the War Store ever said anything official about dropping Defiance product, but I remember them reducing the prices at one point (possibly during a Black Friday sale, I don't remember), so if they're not listed anymore then I imagine they probably got fed up with Defiance and washed their hands of it, with the reduced prices being an attempt at dumping what they had left in stock.
Can't really blame them, either. It took forever just for WS to get the Marines in stock IIRC, and every release after has been more of the same, with nothing but delays. I don't think they even had anything other than the Marines.
Ronin_eX wrote: Prince August doesn't cast any Warzone stuff though. The moulds and masters for the old Warzone line were destroyed when Excelsior went under. And owning a few Prince August minis and a few originals, they certainly aren't recasts.
Now I REALLY have to get some before they're gone forever
I think I read that their current batch they're planning is Chinese infantry, German mech, and US Powered Armor. I'm not sure what their order of production is though. Those Chinese remind me of better looking Rogue Trader era Guardsmen. I suppose they look okay, but the question is, will the final product actually look like those early sculpts? The final product with the Germans had so much detail loss that they barely resembled the preliminary sculpts.
I quite like the look of the legs and torsos (from what i can see), not so keen on the arms though and the heads look a little strange, and i don't just mean the aerodynamic cyclist's helmet!
Still, i'd only ever buy them to convert them anyway, could look cool with some Pig Iron or Mad Robot heads or arms from Anvil Industries or Victoria Lamb.
kenshin620 wrote: Looks like they're getting around to other infantry sets
Guess tis pretty much official though the old roadmap of last year is thrown out the window
Chinese are here at Defiance, though not chinese businessmen
What armies are planned?
I'd really like some SciFi Brits (Warzone's Imperials aren't quite what I'm looking for), though I'm making do with Brits from Westwind's Secrets of the Third Reich since there is a general lack of British style SciFi troopers.
Also, again: People will still give these guys money, really?
Have they started selling the vehicle posted a couple pages back? Have they fulfilled all of the German and Bugs pre-orders? Are those figures up to snuff?
Given that the bugs and Germans started off with better greens than these, and still ended up looking like crap, I wouldn't hold my breath for quality here.
Also, again: People will still give these guys money, really?
Have they started selling the vehicle posted a couple pages back? Have they fulfilled all of the German and Bugs pre-orders? Are those figures up to snuff?
Given that the bugs and Germans started off with better greens than these, and still ended up looking like crap, I wouldn't hold my breath for quality here.
Just my 2 cents.
~Eric
If we pre-order enough of these, surely this time they'll be able to deliver exactly as promised!
Have they started selling the vehicle posted a couple pages back? Have they fulfilled all of the German and Bugs pre-orders? Are those figures up to snuff?
According to their site, yes, they have fulfilled the outstanding orders. Have they really? No clue. Supposedly the jeeps are also for sale. I can't speak for the quality of the bugs, but I definitely can for the Germans. Did mine turn out better than the sneak preview ones others received? Yes, mine were passable. Are they up to snuff though? I'm going to say no. While pretty much every one of my figures is serviceable and can look alright once it's painted up, there's just way too much detail loss for my taste. Not helping things either is the fact that the "plastic" they used sucks. I don't know if it's just my sample, but the stuff just won't glue. I don't know what the deal is, but parts won't glue together properly and even after spending weeks bathing in Simple Green and getting scrubbed down with soap and water, the material still has an odd, slick, soapy feel to it. Thankfully I haven't had any issues with paint adhering, but the super glue not working, that shouldn't be happening. The really annoying thing is that there seems to be two batches of "plastic" being used on the figures. There's a darker one and a lighter one. The darker one was used for my bonus figure and the stands. This stuff feels more or less like regular plastic and retains damn near full detail. The bonus figure, aside from a bent gun and some flash is nearly flawless. The lighter stuff though comprises just about everything else and has that soapy feel to it and won't glue. If they can get their QC in order, the Chinese at least might be halfway decent, bland sculpt aside. Hell, if they can get their QC back in shape, I might even consider giving them money again.
So, who wants to be Dakka's guinea pig and order some of the Chinese or one of the jeeps?
I already ordered one of the JRAB boxes and was informed, after about a week, that they had to redo the mold. That was on 5/18 and I sent another e-mail a couple days ago wondering what the status was, but haven't received a response yet. I will not be direct ordering again.
On the other hand, if the thing ever arrives, I'll post pics.
Xeno wrote: I already ordered one of the JRAB boxes and was informed, after about a week, that they had to redo the mold. That was on 5/18 and I sent another e-mail a couple days ago wondering what the status was, but haven't received a response yet. I will not be direct ordering again.
On the other hand, if the thing ever arrives, I'll post pics.
Yikes that does not sound good
replacing a mould for a resin piece should be routine, and thus not mean a big stall in production (unless you had to get moulds done by an external partner, and they were meant to be all in house now)
I wonder if they've found the JRAB tears up the mould and they've got to do a quick redesign to mitigate it?
Okay guys, I just got paid, and I'm itching to drop my hobby dollars on a big project.
And despite the comedy of errors that is Defiance Games, their 10-box deal of bugs is looking pretty good. I mean, 300 bugs for $239? That's less than eighty cents a figure? How bad could they be? Add some 30mm magnetic bases from Litko, and you're good to go. I wouldn't mind having these for my D20 Future games. Even wrote up some d20 rules for them.
But I had a question about the deal, so I went to their facebook to ask a question.
Lo and behold, it appears I am banned from posting on their facebook. I can only assume it's in light of my recent posts. The funny thing is, I praised some of their work in previous facebook posts. The Marines really do look better, the more color schemes you see them in.
But apparently Tony Reidy does not take criticism well, and I am thus banned from posting. Le sigh...
If Tony Reidy's skin is really that thin, and he's really that much of a pussy, I guess I have no choice to spend my wargaming dollars on something else then. Maybe some 50% off Starship Trooper boxes or something... I've got all the D20 books for those bugs as well. Whatever, it's all the same.
I wonder if GW would cut me a deal if I offered to buy a ton of Hormogaunts...
Actually I'm American, I just now realize my little flag thing has been Canadian the entire time I've been posting here, lol. Looking through the settings, it appears it's based off your IP, and you need a Mod to change it.
Anyway, I wanted to know if they're figures would be available at places like The War Store anytime soon, and if so, if the 10-box deal would still be available, or is that company-direct only.
As I understand it, many people have had issues purchasing direct from the company.
Although I'm not 100% against ordering direct. Wargames Factory ran a 50% off "Zombieland" deal to coincide with the film when it was released, though presumably to make back the cost of tooling the sprue, as it was very new at the time. I've always kicked myself for missing out on that, as they've never run a similar deal since. Although I probably got the best of the deal, considering their male zombies are true 25mm and are very small.
Still, for half-off, I can live with slightly shrunken zombies.
So I'm sensitive for Tony's need to make back the capital he spent on the tooling, but having such thin skin is inexcusable, now that we live in an age of social media.
(as an aside, I'm also annoyed dakka Mods deleted my previous facebook posts.
If Tony can't handle the heat, he needs to step up his game. I'm not the one falling behind on orders, and the release schedule, he is. I'm not the one keeping products out of the hands of retailers, he is.
His knee-jerk decision to ban me from posting on his facebook just lead to a $239 loss in sales.
More and more, it's looking like Wai Kee Hui made the right decision booting poor Tony from the company, and that all of his business problems are his own fault.
Yes. 100 hormagaunts for the price of 100 hormagaunts.
Hell I'm just assuming you could get 100 of them for $240, they might actually cost more than that. Which is...stupid.
Anyway, I'd say you're better off honestly, seeing how things are going. If you did buy from him you'd probably never get any product anyway, especially if he knows it's you buying from him.
Warstore HAD Defiance stuff on their website at one point. I bought my one and only box of UAMC from them. But after having Germans, Bugs and bases on "soon" for so long, I think they got rid of the whole section.
The "buy more boxes" deal is direct only, and seems to be a permanent fixture. I was thinking of using the same deal to pay a lot less shipping back when things were looking good, and most of it was presumably going to be plastic. Now... Far from sure.
I'd be especially wary of buying bugs from them. Their production has been plagued with issues from the start, and I just can't bring myself to believe they have fixed them all.
And for the record, from the US, it costs 261$ to get 9 boxes of Hormagaunts. And lots of patience to paint them all.
I have only ever had a very mild interest in Defiance, enough to keep me checking this page every so often. The Chinese are passable I guess but probably not something that I would ever want to buy unless I ran across them in a store. The vehicle though is pretty nice indeed!
Oh @Chris, I noticed all your posts on the DG facebook page and your bragging about them on Dakka and frankly if I were in their shoes I would have banned you also. Your supposed potential $300 order may seem good in your eyes but when you go screaming at Defiance every time they post something you have to consider the many customers they loose as a result.
I am not saying I disagree with what you wrote in those cases, but some basic manners wouldn't have gone amiss and you most likely appear to them as someone who is simply there to cause trouble with absolutely no intention of changing your stance and especially not buy any product from them.
Chris Valera: Just giving you fair warning, the Bugs are super fiddly as far as I recall. It's a ton of bugs, but I'm assuming you won't ever finish assembling 300 of them. If I recall correctly, the torso is two pieces, six individual legs and the head. Not to mention they are configured for a 30mm base rather than a 25.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By the way, I never really liked the way the bugs looked, but the moment they went from a 25mm to a 30mm, I lost all hope.
Commander Cain wrote:I have only ever had a very mild interest in Defiance, enough to keep me checking this page every so often. The Chinese are passable I guess but probably not something that I would ever want to buy unless I ran across them in a store. The vehicle though is pretty nice indeed!
Oh @Chris, I noticed all your posts on the DG facebook page and your bragging about them on Dakka and frankly if I were in their shoes I would have banned you also. Your supposed potential $300 order may seem good in your eyes but when you go screaming at Defiance every time they post something you have to consider the many customers they loose as a result.
I am not saying I disagree with what you wrote in those cases, but some basic manners wouldn't have gone amiss and you most likely appear to them as someone who is simply there to cause trouble with absolutely no intention of changing your stance and especially not buy any product from them.
Yeah, but it's a fair point; have the pre-orders gone out yet? They talk a big game, but if your existing fans haven't been taken care of, what makes new fans so eager to jump in? Same with the new vehicle, they crow all about it, then they can't meet their release dates, and can't ship product.
Might it not have been better to build up some inventory? That way, they could have found out the model was a mold-ripper, rather than findiing out at the eleventh hour and disappointing fans.
noneoftheabove0 wrote:Chris Valera: Just giving you fair warning, the Bugs are super fiddly as far as I recall. It's a ton of bugs, but I'm assuming you won't ever finish assembling 300 of them. If I recall correctly, the torso is two pieces, six individual legs and the head. Not to mention they are configured for a 30mm base rather than a 25.
I'm okay with fiddly, I'm a grown man with experience assembling models, but they don't even look that great, or detailed. But they are cheap as hell though.That's the appeal. I'm okay with the 30mm base, although I wish GF9 made 30mm bases. It does bug me too.
Chris- I'd be wary. If the bugs "fiddly-ness" is the same as the German's, then you're going to have a very frustrating time. I've said it numerous times and I'll say it again, super glue WILL not work on these figures. I've had to start using Green Stuff to get the limbs to hold in place on mine now. And you know what? Even that won't stick. If you're planning 300 figures using this same material, you're going to tear your hair out before you even get through one box.
Barzam wrote: Chris- I'd be wary. If the bugs "fiddly-ness" is the same as the German's, then you're going to have a very frustrating time. I've said it numerous times and I'll say it again, super glue WILL not work on these figures. I've had to start using Green Stuff to get the limbs to hold in place on mine now. And you know what? Even that won't stick. If you're planning 300 figures using this same material, you're going to tear your hair out before you even get through one box.
what superglue? both zapagap and army painter superglue work fine on the box o' bugs that I have.
Yeah, superglue works just fine on them; I've assembled enough of the Bugs and Germans to be very confident about that. I don't even make a habit of washing off my minis before I glue them and it hasn't been an issue.
I've used both Loctite and Krazy brand super glues and both have had serious issues bonding with the restic. I've built quite a few other resin and restic figures using the same glues and never had any problems.
Barzam wrote: I've used both Loctite and Krazy brand super glues and both have had serious issues bonding with the restic. I've built quite a few other resin and restic figures using the same glues and never had any problems.
I've never used either, perhaps there's a difference? I love the Army Painter super glue as it's a bit thick (for concave surfaces and ball joints), and zap a gap as it's a bit thinner (for flat surfaces), and both work on metal/restic/resin/plastic/defiance-weird-plastic/trollforged/etc
Loctite works on at least some forms of restic; my DreadBall guys are held together by it just fine. Who knows with the specific formulation Defiance uses though...
From what I heard, the bugs' legs do not have a good surface to glue. They are more or less sticks that you glue into the body, as opposed to ball and socket joints. This may be part of the problem.
Edit: The above is incorrect. It was the issue of gluing the tips of the legs to the base.
Totally different as far as I know. The German mech never had arms. It always looked kind of like a GEKKO from Metal Gear Solid.
You know, if they were to go back and recast the Germans in regular hard plastic on sprues like the UAMC, I would probably take back everything negative I've said about them or their products. The figures had so much potential to be really cool that just got wasted.
I've been looking at the Chinese, and maybe this is wishful thinking, but I thnk they'll come out significantly better than previous sets. The details on the Marines were kind of shallow and soft with rounded edges, and the Germans were detailed to the point of being a busy mess. These look a bit cleaner, in the sense that there aren't a lot of extra detail just to have detail. The detail it does have seems to be pretty deep and with fairly hard edges. I'll agree with the criticism that the helmets are butt ugly, and those aren't even AK47s in space, they're just AK47s, but as far as the models go, it looks like they'll paint up easier than the last few sets. If they come out of the mold well, they may be a major step forward.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I think those may be a head and arm swap away from being pretty good Colonial Marines. Now to just wait for Mad Robot Minis to come out with some rolled sleeves.
One thing I noticed is that the hands don't seem quite as freakishly oversized; about at GW standards now
Apparently they learned a lesson; Ed Fortae of Troll Forged, who designed the plastic they used, mentioned (on Frothers, I think), that his stuff works better for single-piece castings rather than lots of small, intricate pieces, and seems like that's what they're going for here. I'd have to see them in the real life, though.
Those look pretty good. I'm a little bummed about the arms being connected to the torsos because it'll make it virtually impossible to do an arm swap on them. However, they look pretty damned sharp.
Pros:
-like the armor, at least from the blurry pics I have on my phone
- their helmets look the bicycle helmets the rebel alliance used
-Ak47's in space
Cons
-bicycle helmets
-bit pricier
-Ak47's in space
either way, I'll wait until I see them in store before I would think of buying them. They might make good conversion fodder for elysians, as their bodies seem to match that style of armor.
They aren't bad. A bit generic, but even that has a definite appeal. And there's enough separate arms to get some conversion work done, which is good news.
Maybe they can take some of the money they get for pre-orders and buy a camera that has a focus feature. Those preset/one distance focus cameras are just no good now-a-days, and surely the use of a camera that could focus would preclude them from showing those pictures...
CptJake wrote: Maybe they can take some of the money they get for pre-orders and buy a camera that has a focus feature. Those preset/one distance focus cameras are just no good now-a-days, and surely the use of a camera that could focus would preclude them from showing those pictures...
Look at the detail on that leaf!
Yea, they really need a new camera, or learn how to use the one that they have. I am sure that there is a tutorial here on Dakka somewhere.
I have to say, those figures actually look decent. I think that going simplistic on the details was actually a good move on their part. Intdrsting that some figures are even monoposed. If they can actually deliver on quality and on time, I may even cinsider getting some.
CptJake wrote: Maybe they can take some of the money they get for pre-orders and buy a camera that has a focus feature. Those preset/one distance focus cameras are just no good now-a-days, and surely the use of a camera that could focus would preclude them from showing those pictures...
Look at the detail on that leaf!
Yea, they really need a new camera, or learn how to use the one that they have. I am sure that there is a tutorial here on Dakka somewhere.
I was going to say the exact same thing. The camera is not the problem, it's a user problem. At worse they need to buy an extra lens to better focus on up close subjects.
It's really inexcusable. An iPhone 4 can take really good pictures, and I use a 3 megapixel point and shoot from like, 2004 and get solid, high-detail pictures of my models all the time. It's baffling.
Yay, more crappily focused pictures.
For a company that's trying to dig itself out of something of an image hole, these pictures only make it look like they're trying to hide something.
Any clear accessory sprue pictures yet?
That's about as close as we can get to really seeing the quality of these before they are released and independent reviews start appearing.
I don't like the design for that machinegun either. Unless they have figured out away to take recoil away, resting it on top of your shoulder vice being able to pull a stock into your shoulder is going to make that uncomfortable to fire and inaccurate as all heck.
Seeing as how the rest of the troops are still using today's AK, I doubt the MG has a magic recoil reducer tech.
It looks like a recoiless rifle or anti tank weapon. That couldn't be a MG, its just wrong in so many ways.
The only way a MG could be fired on the shoulder is if the gunner was behind the A-Gunner, shooting from a supported position on the guys shoulder. Maybe from the hip too, but the shoulder? I don't think so.
) since no one in the market makes 30mm bases with the "
