Hi Everyone! We've gotten the forums back online - but it's just a temporary measure. The whole site is in the process of a huge redesign and one of the things that is holding us up is an ability to port the old forum content to a new forum.
That said - there is so much going on and we've had so many requests from people to get back to the forums - that we want to turn them back on. They're not ideal at this point - but they should work. So have at it!
With regards to the shoulder mounted HMG, I think it would work better as a shoulter mounted beam weapon, kind of like the laser rifles seen in the movie version of Akira. Yeah, if I get these, that's how I'll be using them.
Barzam wrote: With regards to the shoulder mounted HMG, I think it would work better as a shoulter mounted beam weapon, kind of like the laser rifles seen in the movie version of Akira. Yeah, if I get these, that's how I'll be using them.
And these beam weapons are so vastly expensive that the rest of the squad is issued antique AK-47s to cut back on costs.
I'll stick with my poor design theory. It seems to fit Defiance better.
in defense of Defiance (hmm...), I'm pretty sure those rifles aren't AK's, but are instead the Type-03 5.8mm assault rifle recently adopted by the PLA. The Type-03 is based on the Type-81, which was in turn based on the Kalashnikov. However, despite the similar overall appearance, they are quite different.
So I was given the option to switch out my JRAB's for a squad of Chinese (same price) since the JRAB was being held up. Said order just shipped today, so sometime next week I should be able to post pictures of the real product. I'll try to my best to take good pictures, but don't put too much faith is either my crappy Nikon or my own skills, 'k?
Despite all the drama and crap that has followed this company, I'd still like to see them get back on track, even if I've lost interest in their products.
I will say that I am not a fan of the Chinese bicycle helmets, but other than that they look pretty good. The AK 47's in space was an in joke on the old forum if I remember right.
I honestly wonder how many of the people that know that joke are still around to get it.
With those helmets, I'm sure they're including non helmetted heads as well. My Germans, and I assume the Americans as well came with alternate heads wearing caps, so these guys should as well. That should make them look better, actually.
A nice thing about the Marine is that they are at the exact perfect scale to match most of Wargames Factory's offerings in terms of parts swapping (understandable since every set before the Shock Trooper heavy weapons and part of the greeks was designed by the same guy as the Marines), and should match up fairly well with Warlord Games as well. The Germans are a little smaller, but should be too bad and, if the Chinese are in a similar scale, they too should match up.
This means you'll have loads of options. I should be able tell you more a little later this afternoon when mine arrive in the mail.
Edit: Heh heh, speak of the devil. A box arrived with two squads of Chinese infantry as replacements for the UAMC and JRAB boxes I ordered.
So, quick first impressions before I take a nap (since I got off of work at 7:00 this morning.
Overall, they're not too bad. The scuplts are clean, uncomplicated, and well-enough done. Also quite clearly done in green stuff, rather than digital. There are some bubbles, particular on the gun stocks of the single piece figures holding rifles, and on the underside of the figures. Everyone of the kneeling figures I examined also had the toe of its right boot (the one pointing towards the ground) missing. However, a little green stuff can fix these guys up easily enough -- they are a maze of fine details and small parts.
One real problem is the heads: there was noticeable mold slippage that resulted in lopsided heads. Since the faces are divided down the middle, this means lopsided faces. However, I should have enough salvageable heads to assemble a squad; the mold slippage seems to be a real problem only with the helmeted heads. The caps are fine.
However, to their credit, the facial features are carved quite deep so it should be a snap for a crap painted like myself to make them look semi-decent.
My initial impression: these are not display minis by any stretch of the imagination, but they'll get the job done.
I'll give a more detailed analysis, including pouring over the second set, and maybe paint a couple, after my nap.
The ColtArmz-GE M3A is the premier personal hardbeam squad support weapon in the United Americas military arsenal.
The M3A is an automatic targeting, recoilless light energy weapon system that emits a 28mm hard laser beam capable of penetrating most known man-made materials.
The M3A is integrated with an exo-skeletal locking support system worn by its gunner on both left and right arms. The exo-sys not only supports the weapons weight but also provides a stable firing platform.
"The M3A is a scary weapon mano. You light some Imp or Kraut up with an M-2800 or the trusty ole' M-46 and you just see them fall down. Not the beam. This baby puts a 28mm HOLE through the target. You see some gomer pop up, autotargetting locks, you squeeze the trigger and you see driggin' DAYLIGHT through them! I'm not bubbly on this mano. You see the HOLE before they plant."
- Private First Class Carmen Jenette, M3A Gunner
You'll see more of the M3A and PFC Jenette with our Female Marines.
Everyone of the kneeling figures I examined also had the toe of its right boot (the one pointing towards the ground) missing. However, a little green stuff can fix these guys up easily enough -- they are a maze of fine details and small parts....
...One real problem is the heads: there was noticeable mold slippage that resulted in lopsided heads. Since the faces are divided down the middle, this means lopsided faces. However, I should have enough salvageable heads to assemble a squad; the mold slippage seems to be a real problem only with the helmeted heads. The caps are fine.
Thanks for the review, I'm glad these worked out for you. However the two problems above are deal breakers.
1) Missing toes on every cast means that they are casting with bad molds, not simply that one figure might have been miscast. That's a real NO-NO. Bad molds get replaced, they shouldn't be used.
2)The lopsided heads point to more poor QC. Not very confidence-inspiring.
Have you contacted them for replacement parts? I imagine many folks will be waiting to see how other folks' kits come and how Defiance handles complaints for those who find such flaws unacceptable.
So, my Chinese arrived and I assembled a few. After a bit of screwing, I actually took some pictures. Here's my more in depth opinion of them.
In theory, these would be a great set for an inexperienced modeler or something looking to assemble an army extremely quickly. Of the five bodies included in the set, two only require attaching a head to be complete, and all of the bodies are designed with a high armor collar so all you have to do is squirt in a little glue, plug in the head, and your done. The fit is tight enough that it should stay with problem. For the remaining three bodies, there are holes on the side to plug in the arms, and the loose rifle arms are paired so all you have to do is glue them on and you're good. Assemble time for a single figure should be under a minute each, and maybe 30 minutes for the entire box if you're particularly choosy about head and arm positions. Also, the plugs mean it's simple to test fit parts without glue, right?
The basic body:
We immediately run into the first problems.
The collar that the head plugs into was only particuarly molded or outright missing on several figures and thin or cracked on several of the remainder, meaning you have to put some effort into getting the head to stay, plus possibly carving the neck stump to make sure it'll sit properly.
The peg hole system for the arms is used only on the special arms (the shoulder'mount machinegun, the sword, pistol, pointing hand, and the satchel charge) and the pegs are far too small for the arm holes. The holes themselves are so large that there isn't much surface area for the arms to bond since the peg is too small. The rifle arms lack the begs entirely, and have only a small amount of bonding area. It took a little work to get the arms to stick, ad the machinegun was especially a pain in the butt because the gun's weight kept dragging it off the figure.
As a side note, I had a hard time figuring out how to attach the grip arm.
Special arms: the machinegun grip is on the bottom left, and the other is some kind of pistol, I guess, that looks half-finished.
The machinegun is a rather strange, awkward, and difficult to position weapon.
Casting problems with the neck hole:
Now, let's talk about casting flaws, shall we?
There were, believe it or not, only a small number of air bubbles on the bodies, and usually in inconspicuous places like the bottoms of the feet, which'll be glue to the base anyway, so who cares, right? As a general thing, the bodies are cast well and detail is crisp and deep. For a crap painted such as myself, these guys'll be easy to paint. However, the casting flaws there were . . . oh my.
For starters: the right toe of the boot on EVERY SINGLE kneeling figure was missing. That's all figures from two sets.
On many of the arms, the edge of the shoulder was missing and, given how little surface area there already is for glue bonding, that's a problem, on that would be easy to fix with green stuff, but that's barely acceptable, even to an easy-going guy like myself.
The single piece bodies had a couple of common flaws: the first is that on the one with a visible gun stock, said stock was always half cast. The end of the barrel was frequently missing (~50% of the time) on all rifles except, ironically, Mr. Half-Stock. If you needed an excuse to make these little less like AK-47s, there you go. You'll probably have to trim them all down anyway.
The heads are so-so: they have a mix of ethnicities with four different helmeted heads, three different heads with caps, and a couple of character heads including an officer in peaked cap and a dude with a bandanna.
However, a number (about 25%) of the head tabs between both sets were affected by misaligned molds making the face look like it had suffered a stroke:
Others looked misaligned, like perhaps the master model had been slightly squashed during molding or just were suffering from less overtly noticeable molding issues.
Plus, despite being Imperial Chinese infantry, the asian-looking heads had a sorta charicature look to them that was, frankly, just a little offensive.
Finally, here's some shots of the five I assembled:
Final thoughts
Now, I'm not knowledgeable on molds outside of what I've read online, but I can help but think that someone with some skill could fix the assorted casting flaws with a little work. Do that, redo the arm holes at a small size, and make sure the molds aren't misaligned, and literally every technical flaw in this set would be fixed and they'd be fine. The sculpts themselves, as I said, are clean and well-detailed as I hope the pictures above had shown. The material itself is fine. As I keep saying, Trollcast (or this variation of it) is light, rugged, carves well, glues well, and paints well.
Defiance Games has a repeated problem, I think, of not spending enough time in the prototype stage. They get flawed castings and, instead of going back and figuring out what went wrong and fixing it, they just same to shrug and go "good enough." Well, in the case of this set, it's not: flaws abound, from noticeable casting issues to problems in the design, and the smart thing to do with be to actually address those before selling the miniatures. As with the Germans before, they would have seen what was wrong (shallow detail, too-thin weapons, too many parts) and fixed them. Ironically, these guys dis address some of those issues -- the guns are chunkier, details are deep, and there aren't millions of small parts. It almost look like prototyping spread out between several sets, rather than one; at this right, the next set (assuming they keep learning) should be pretty good.
The problem, of course, is that you aren't supposed to sell the prototypes as unfinished products.
The detailed reports on those Chinese are kind of disappointing
(from the point if view of somebody who really wants to buy the hard suits if the ever appear)
You really struggle to see why they'd send out a whole bunch of figures missing bits of a foot (mould slip is bad too but a glance might miss it, but those feet, no)
At least stuff got delivered reletivly promptly which is a big improvement
To be honest, these actually seem to be an improvement over the Germans, flaws and all. Hell, these actually seem more than passable as the flawed bits seem like they'd be much easier to fix. It also looks like they're using that darker material. That stuff seemed to feel more like normal plastic and tended to retain details better in my experience. How did the material feel? I've mentioned my Germans had an odd soapy feel to them. Did these feel more like regular restic or plastic?
It's same material, regardless of color. The color just comes from the dyes they use, and how much of said dye.
It ha a "soapy" texture, but I don't actually think that's a bad thing. It's easy to work with and carve. For instance, the officer figure I did, holding his rifle in one hand and gesturing with the other involved taking one of the pairs of arms holding a rifle, breaking off the left arm, and carving off the hand. It was the work of about thirty seconds and looked good. It like the material: it works easy, it's light, it's durable, it respond well when warped (I fixed a mildly warped machinegun by bending it firmly back it place, and it stayed), and it takes glue well. Just remember that super glue needs to be used in far smaller quantities that polystyrene glue -- a little dab. I haven't worked with other restics so I can't compare, but from what I've heard, at least, about Finecast, Troll Forge's Troll Cast is light years better. It's not brittle, it doesn't flake or turn to power, and you don't need to soap the stuff down and scrub up to make it workable.
A lot of the problems with the set can be fixed with green stuff. The problem, for some, is that the green stuff work will be extensive. In the arm sockets to fill in space for the special arm mounts or to provide surface area to glue on the arms, on the shoulders to fix air bubbles, on the stocks and barrels of the guns, and on the toes of the kneeling figures (or just cover them up with base flock as I intended to do). It's a lot of work for supposedly cheap, simple figures.
First I had been waiting for both the Marines and Germans to come out as I intended to interchange bits to make something a bit more to my taste.
First the Marines came out.
Then after a long wait, the Germans came out. Initially I was ecstatic and didn't really care about the complaints of others until I saw a size comparison. Germans were noticeably smaller than the marines.
Gathered that it was a shrinking issue with a new type of resin/plastic so I decided to wait and see if the issue could be rectified. Apparently it hasn't.
Sorry Defiance, but I think I'll be looking elsewhere now to get the look I want. (I would sculpt, but I'm still working my way to being able to sculpt that well in the first place.)
Tony's argument has been to provide models that go from sprue to table in record time. I think their mission statement is more akin to "we make so you can play a lot" rather than "exquisite miniatures to spend hours over, painting and lavishing."
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Tony's argument has been to provide models that go from sprue to table in record time. I think their mission statement is more akin to "we make so you can play a lot" rather than "exquisite miniatures to spend hours over, painting and lavishing."
It's just a different philosophy, I guess.
I'm a fan of that philosophy myself. I'm not a good painter, nor a good modeler (the best I can do with green stuff, for instance, is blobs on stuff and filling gaps), and most minis companies have priced me out of the 28mm market (even moreso now that some student loans are coming due and my disposable income each month can be measured in the double digits). I just want them to put the extra effort into perfecting the product. I honestly think part of the problem is that none of them are experienced on the casting end of things and all of their problems are due to learning difficulties.
And to expand on Cpt Jake's statement:
I was given the option to continue to wait on the JRAB (the UAMC vehicle) that I ordered, and was given an acceptable explanation as to why there was a delay, or I could exchange my order for the Chinese. I chose to take the Chinese to see what they were like.
Shame about the casting problems. I don't dislike the design of the Chinese models, even if they're pretty... well, it's been said that they're more gaming models than display models, and I guess that sounds about right. They remind me of older Copplestone sci-fi models that I painted a bunch when I was new to wargaming. Those containers, from what little I can see, may get my business though. It's been hard to find affordable shipping containers since AT-43 ended.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Tony's argument has been to provide models that go from sprue to table in record time. I think their mission statement is more akin to "we make so you can play a lot" rather than "exquisite miniatures to spend hours over, painting and lavishing."
It's just a different philosophy, I guess.
Expecting models to not consistently have the same preventable miscast error is not a different design philosophy.
So, my Chinese arrived and I assembled a few. After a bit of screwing, I actually took some pictures. Here's my more in depth opinion of them.
In theory, these would be a great set for an inexperienced modeler or something looking to assemble an army extremely quickly. Of the five bodies included in the set, two only require attaching a head to be complete, and all of the bodies are designed with a high armor collar so all you have to do is squirt in a little glue, plug in the head, and your done. The fit is tight enough that it should stay with problem. For the remaining three bodies, there are holes on the side to plug in the arms, and the loose rifle arms are paired so all you have to do is glue them on and you're good. Assemble time for a single figure should be under a minute each, and maybe 30 minutes for the entire box if you're particularly choosy about head and arm positions. Also, the plugs mean it's simple to test fit parts without glue, right?
The basic body:
We immediately run into the first problems.
The collar that the head plugs into was only particuarly molded or outright missing on several figures and thin or cracked on several of the remainder, meaning you have to put some effort into getting the head to stay, plus possibly carving the neck stump to make sure it'll sit properly.
The peg hole system for the arms is used only on the special arms (the shoulder'mount machinegun, the sword, pistol, pointing hand, and the satchel charge) and the pegs are far too small for the arm holes. The holes themselves are so large that there isn't much surface area for the arms to bond since the peg is too small. The rifle arms lack the begs entirely, and have only a small amount of bonding area. It took a little work to get the arms to stick, ad the machinegun was especially a pain in the butt because the gun's weight kept dragging it off the figure.
As a side note, I had a hard time figuring out how to attach the grip arm.
Special arms: the machinegun grip is on the bottom left, and the other is some kind of pistol, I guess, that looks half-finished.
The machinegun is a rather strange, awkward, and difficult to position weapon.
Casting problems with the neck hole:
Now, let's talk about casting flaws, shall we?
There were, believe it or not, only a small number of air bubbles on the bodies, and usually in inconspicuous places like the bottoms of the feet, which'll be glue to the base anyway, so who cares, right? As a general thing, the bodies are cast well and detail is crisp and deep. For a crap painted such as myself, these guys'll be easy to paint. However, the casting flaws there were . . . oh my.
For starters: the right toe of the boot on EVERY SINGLE kneeling figure was missing. That's all figures from two sets.
On many of the arms, the edge of the shoulder was missing and, given how little surface area there already is for glue bonding, that's a problem, on that would be easy to fix with green stuff, but that's barely acceptable, even to an easy-going guy like myself.
The single piece bodies had a couple of common flaws: the first is that on the one with a visible gun stock, said stock was always half cast. The end of the barrel was frequently missing (~50% of the time) on all rifles except, ironically, Mr. Half-Stock. If you needed an excuse to make these little less like AK-47s, there you go. You'll probably have to trim them all down anyway.
The heads are so-so: they have a mix of ethnicities with four different helmeted heads, three different heads with caps, and a couple of character heads including an officer in peaked cap and a dude with a bandanna.
However, a number (about 25%) of the head tabs between both sets were affected by misaligned molds making the face look like it had suffered a stroke:
Others looked misaligned, like perhaps the master model had been slightly squashed during molding or just were suffering from less overtly noticeable molding issues.
Plus, despite being Imperial Chinese infantry, the asian-looking heads had a sorta charicature look to them that was, frankly, just a little offensive.
Finally, here's some shots of the five I assembled:
Final thoughts
Now, I'm not knowledgeable on molds outside of what I've read online, but I can help but think that someone with some skill could fix the assorted casting flaws with a little work. Do that, redo the arm holes at a small size, and make sure the molds aren't misaligned, and literally every technical flaw in this set would be fixed and they'd be fine. The sculpts themselves, as I said, are clean and well-detailed as I hope the pictures above had shown. The material itself is fine. As I keep saying, Trollcast (or this variation of it) is light, rugged, carves well, glues well, and paints well.
Defiance Games has a repeated problem, I think, of not spending enough time in the prototype stage. They get flawed castings and, instead of going back and figuring out what went wrong and fixing it, they just same to shrug and go "good enough." Well, in the case of this set, it's not: flaws abound, from noticeable casting issues to problems in the design, and the smart thing to do with be to actually address those before selling the miniatures. As with the Germans before, they would have seen what was wrong (shallow detail, too-thin weapons, too many parts) and fixed them. Ironically, these guys dis address some of those issues -- the guns are chunkier, details are deep, and there aren't millions of small parts. It almost look like prototyping spread out between several sets, rather than one; at this right, the next set (assuming they keep learning) should be pretty good.
The problem, of course, is that you aren't supposed to sell the prototypes as unfinished products.
Lastly, have a few scale pictures:
Notice how tiny the Germans STILL are?
Thanks for the excellent review. Great comparisons and descriptions and pictures so clear that it looking at Defiances's pics, it looks like they're trying to hide something. These are sub-par figures for which there is no excuse. The Marines were a solid product (not amazing, but solid) these are poorly cast with terribly QC. It's very disappointing because these have a style that would have made them excellent foes for the Pig Iron line of minaitures.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:The detailed reports on those Chinese are kind of disappointing
(from the point if view of somebody who really wants to buy the hard suits if the ever appear)
This is my feeling as well. Hardsuits are something that is hard to find in a budget model, and I'd be willing to put some work into fixing issues in a model as hard to find as this. For line troops however, there are too many better options to want to waste time on these.
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Tony's argument has been to provide models that go from sprue to table in record time. I think their mission statement is more akin to "we make so you can play a lot" rather than "exquisite miniatures to spend hours over, painting and lavishing."
It's just a different philosophy, I guess.
If it is, it's a FAILED philosophy. Fixing the flaws in these figs (the necks and rifle stocks alone) with GS is going to make these far more time consuming that GW cadians, WGF Greatcoats, DS Marines and many other lines.
warboss wrote:
Expecting models to not consistently have the same preventable miscast error is not a different design philosophy.
Very much agreed. It is possible to make affordable miniatures that are not crappily produced. Even looking outside of Defiance and their Marines, take a look at Khurasan Federal troops.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/522643.page Excellent quality metal figures for $1.30 each. You want fast-to-the-table? These babies will get you there much faster than the Chinese troopers with no GS'ing and a much better result.
In today's miniatures market there's simply no excuse for figures with these problems. I'm a huge fan of affordable miniatures lines, but it seems to me that Defiance should have worked hard to make one set of miniatures that matches the scale and slightly improves the quality of their initial decent-quality Marines offering, rather than produce 3 subsequent products that are all of lesser quality and varied scale.
Brother SRM wrote: Those containers, from what little I can see, may get my business though. It's been hard to find affordable shipping containers since AT-43 ended.
What is the big draw for the shipping containers that caused the price to skyrocket? I tried picking some up a few years ago as generic terrain but was shocked to see how much they were going for. In my case, it was just a whim so there was no way I was going to pay more than a few bucks for each.
What is the big draw for the shipping containers that caused the price to skyrocket? I tried picking some up a few years ago as generic terrain but was shocked to see how much they were going for. In my case, it was just a whim so there was no way I was going to pay more than a few bucks for each.
I think it's just that they were a very nicely done product (nice fine details like latches and stuff) that no one else was making in that scale. When AT43 went down, the containers became the most valuable part of the game due to their usability in other games. Pricing was also probably affected that the containers were mostly available packaged with vehicles.
I wanted some, but couldn't find any cheaply. I eventually found a batch of NOS boxes for mega-blowout prices at a gaming convention and bought several Therian and ape-man kits just for the containers. Ended up costing me about 5-6 bucks each container, which seems like a great deal. I've got 6 now, but am still on the lookout for more. It's just a really useful terrain piece for Sci-Fi and Post apoc gaming.
I'm sure there are a few I've missed. So far, however none seem to have quite the level of detail and quality as the AT containers. The Resin ones are probably close.
If the quality and price are good, Shipping containers could be a slightly redeeming product for Defiance. I'll be watching with interest.
I am painting the five I assembled right now and have discovered that yes, these need to be washed before painting. The prime wiped off of a few patches where mold release was still present.
The shipping container price is actually average for what other companies are asking for similar product. The AT-43 containers on eBay are selling for a minimum of $16.50+shipping. Some are much higher. There is a 6 container lot for over $100 and I saw a 4 container lot sell for well over $100 a few months back.
These are in regular hard plastic, at least. Resin and MDF can be harder to work with at times.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I'm thinking about just buying a few sheets of textured plasticard, a pack of strips and just go nuts. I wonder why I didn't do it before.
I thought about that too, but the time it would take to scratchbuild one would probably exceed the hourly wage equivalent I would need to just buy a plastic kit
EDIT: I just read in the comments on the Defiance FB page that the shipping container is the same kit made by Rust Forge.
I once bought a sheet from plastruct to make the ribbing of a plasma blastgun, it would be perfect for these. Once you have your measurements down, I think you could knock one out every fifteen minutes.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I once bought a sheet from plastruct to make the ribbing of a plasma blastgun, it would be perfect for these. Once you have your measurements down, I think you could knock one out every fifteen minutes.
Having worked with plasticard often, I think that 15 minutes is a bit off. You could make all the cuts, after measurements, in, maybe, 15-20 minutes and then another 15-20 for gluing. And after the cost of plasticard and your time is factored in, you really wouldn't be saving much at all. Going by Evergreens online pricing, you would pay about $10 in materials per container. Considering the tools you may not have, most people would possibly be better off just buying pre made kits.
YMMV, of course. I have most of my tools, and I tend to work in sequences rather rapidly. I also tend to do house chores while glue is setting and such.
I agree that they might not open and close, but a simple insert would, in my mind, replace pivoting doors acceptably.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: YMMV, of course. I have most of my tools, and I tend to work in sequences rather rapidly. I also tend to do house chores while glue is setting and such.
I agree that they might not open and close, but a simple insert would, in my mind, replace pivoting doors acceptably.
Love your quote, by the way.
I convert like crazy and have practically every tool you can use for this hobby. I hate working with textured plasticard. Even with fancy Micromark tools (Awesome) its not always easy. The reason I buy kits is because I don't have enough time to scratch build.
And thanks regarding the quote, that and a tattoo is all I still have to remind me of my glory days of playing orks. I always felt that it justified the ork race. I mean, if a haughty eldar can find something nice to say...
One day, many moons from today, I will have my whole summers to myself (once I find a job as a teacher) I need to keep busy, otherwise I'd go nuts.
So Defiance will be "releasing" a kit produced by someone else? Did they buy the rights, or are they just reselling? What will it say about them if their best product is... from another company?
Dr Mathias wrote: EDIT: I just read in the comments on the Defiance FB page that the shipping container is the same kit made by Rust Forge.
The Rust Forge price is 3 bucks less. Another possible source for shipping containers is 1/48 or 1/43 scale trucks. The New Ray brand makes some neat ones. They are going to be larger than the options above and not technically shipping containers, but they are well detailed and plastic. This trailer is about 11 inches long.
For a limited time - we have a pre-release special on the new hard plastic shipping containers! 50 total containers (25 sets) for $499 with free worldwide shipping!
I have some of those containers a few feet from me, they do exist. I bought them direct from Rust Forge. Buyers can only hope that DG has a bunch of them on hand.
I'm not sure if $499 is worth spending on just shipping containers... I suppose it is if you really do want fifty of the things. It would be pretty cool to see on the table.
Seemed like $12.99 per container was okay at the time. I bought four of them to see how they measure up. I haven't built them yet but my first impression is favorable.
ETA: Based off the store descrip, I don't think DG has a large quantity in hand yet. "Shipping week of July 15". I wonder if Proxie Models is drop shipping them direct or if they have to to go through Rust Forge.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Those are available through Proxie Models too? A known and reliable vendor?
Proxie Models is the manufacturer- a guy who decided to buy an injection machine and cut his own molds. It's been very interesting following his progress and blog. I have a few of his buildings and barricades- they're not bad, considering his learning curve and the balls it took to start something like plastic injection in his garage. I've only ordered from him once, but it was shipped fast and he answered email questions quickly.
He made the containers for Rust Forge- who apparently sells them themselves, and also sells them through Defiance. Proxie doesn't sell the containers. For what its worth, Rust Forge also shipped my single order out pretty quick.
I was aware of Proxie Models. Thank you for the link through Rust Forge. Being in the retail business, I find it odd that the product goes through so many hands and ends up being affordable at all. Proxie gets his cut, Rust gets theirs, then Defiance (which I'm sure ain't selling at a loss)
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I was aware of Proxie Models. Thank you for the link through Rust Forge. Being in the retail business, I find it odd that the product goes through so many hands and ends up being affordable at all. Proxie gets his cut, Rust gets theirs, then Defiance (which I'm sure ain't selling at a loss)
Do we know that it goes through all three?
Perhaps Rustforge and Defiance both go strait to Proxie. Not an unusual manufacturer to retailer relationship (though even retailers sometimes have middlemen). Ken (owner of proxie) recently said in his blog post that he's emphasizing a bit more of the manufacturing side of things.
http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html
Yeah, he's pretty good a getting right to the point but not being insulting about it.
Honestly, the prospect of supporting Proxie does make buying the containers at this price more palatable, but I think I'll just keep buying bases instead.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I was aware of Proxie Models. Thank you for the link through Rust Forge. Being in the retail business, I find it odd that the product goes through so many hands and ends up being affordable at all. Proxie gets his cut, Rust gets theirs, then Defiance (which I'm sure ain't selling at a loss)
Do we know that it goes through all three?
Perhaps Rustforge and Defiance both go strait to Proxie. Not an unusual manufacturer to retailer relationship (though even retailers sometimes have middlemen). Ken (owner of proxie) recently said in his blog post that he's emphasizing a bit more of the manufacturing side of things.
http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html
No one is selling at a loss. Proxie Models (Ken) is the manufacturer of the shipping containers. Rust Forge (ME!!!!) designed them, and many other yet to be released products, and paid PM to manufacture them, Defiance Games (Tony) is licensed by Rust Forge (Me again) to sell them, just like I do.
This is basic high school level economics. There is not any mystery or obfuscation here. If you look at the DG container packaging, you will see both companies names on it. This product is 100% designed, manufactured and shipped from the USA. China had nothing to do with this kit. Even the steel mold is manufactured in the USA.
The question did not imply obfuscation on your part, but genuine curiosity, believe it or not. If it's all the same though, I'd rather buy through you.
I am fine with that. You send me money and I will send you toys. That is kinda how I imagined this when I started this whole thing.
Sorry for the confusion. It is difficult to tell, at times, if someone is just curious or if there is genuine complaint or concern. I just wanted to make sure that there was no grey area.
Now go buy my stuff so I can make more for you to buy!
Hello All! I haven't given any updates in a while because everything has been so hectic and crazed - but I wanted to take a little time to give you an idea of what we're doing and what's to come.
I am gun-shy on making any grand pronouncements as we've always been one step forward and two back every time we've thought we've gotten things under control...but - knock on wood - cross fingers - salt over the shoulder - we seem to be settling into a nice new somewhat stable flow right now.
You'll remember what's come before. We did our first set of the Marines in injection molded plastic - here in the US. It took us a long, long time to find someone to do it. It got done but it took a lot longer and went a lot over budget to get there. We then embarked on the spincast plastic process - but it wasn't quite ready for primetime. It was basically a year of working out the kinks and figuring it all out. Part of that was the process and the materials themselves, but part of it was in understanding the types of parts that could be done effectively with few miscasts and a fast production flow.
The bad part of that last bit was that sets like the Bugs and the Germans were really designed for injection molding on frames - not for spinning. So the labor and waste plastic that went into each of those was time and cost prohibitive. We eventually worked out how to set up the Germans in such a way to mass produce them and start putting them into widespread distribution (i.e. not just for sale on this website).
The spincast plastic process and the final product is just amazing - and that's why we've stuck with it through all this pain to get it right. The ability to have true undercuts, figures with less parts, and the ability to get all the detail of metal figures into plastic ones is just so awesome that we had to make it work. But that took time.
The reality of it all is that we have really been in R&D mode from the beginning of 2011 up to about a couple months ago. Learning continues - as it should! - but the major mysteries and kinks are all worked out and we know how to design the right types of figures for the spincast process. The last mystery - having consistently colored plastic - looks like it's being solved next week too!
Anyway, the reality is that although we have Marines, Germans, Bugs, Worms, Chinese, and now the nifty new Shipping Containers. From January 2011 to July 2013 we really only had 1 1/2 products in true distribution (Marines and Germans) because of our manufacturing teething issues. That - finally - is all about to change.
This week we released our third product (care of Rust Forge) into widespread distribution - the Shipping Containers. These have been VERY popular and now our challenge will be to keep an eye on stock levels and make sure we're keeping up to speed.
The Shipping Containers allowed us to do something that we've been wanting to - which is change our packaging. We've moved away from cardboard boxes and are standardizing with plastic cases (similar to what Mantic and North Star are using). These are a bit more expensive than boxes but much faster to get artwork and printing done for them. And since the outside cover is the only thing that changes - you can use blank ones for any product you need. We think they're a pretty nice added value for the customer too as you can use them to store all sorts of stuff. Heck, you could even print your own covers and use them as figure cases or to hold your I Like Ike button collection!
Anyway, now that the Shipping Containers are out - and manufacturing is moving along nicely - we're going to be using these new cases to bring three more products to widespread distribution over the next couple week: the Aleutian Swamp Worms, the Bugs, and the Imperial Chinese. The Worms and Chinese have not had a box done for them yet - so this will be the first time these sets can get to stores. The Bugs - at 30 a box - were always WAY too time consuming to produce to go into distribution with (and frankly unprofitable) - so we're reducing the # per set and reconfiguring the molds and parts in a way that will make them work going forward.
That's great you say - but how about NEW stuff?
We have a lot in the works right now.
The Female Marines are being sculpted and will include two heavy weapon teams in the set. The beauty of these heavy weapons is that they can be used with the male Marines as well - so this set will really enhance your Marine force.
The Germans are also getting their first heavy weapon set. And it's something that we think you are going to be blown away by. It's also being sculpted right now. This is going to be the start of a revision of the Germans to bring them in line with the Marines and Chinese in detail, sizing, and configuration. We'll explain more as we get farther along. We hope to have the first of them to show off in the next week or so - but don't hold us to that!
The JRAB - you remember we pulled back on this set because an opportunity came up to do something very cool with it. We don't yet know if this is going to pan out - but it's in process and we should know very soon.
The German Mech - is waiting to see the results of the JRAB. We'll know soon.
Hardsuits - we need to make changes to the legs and hands to make them more mold friendly. This is something that the sculptor who is working on the Germans is going to be able to do once he wraps those up.
There's more in the works too - but we're trying to take baby steps to get it all rolling the proper way. Stay tuned. Keep buying stuff! We'll keep making it! And let us know what you want as well!
Interesting to see that the hardsuits are, again, being pushed as the last project out the door. Though if there is a lot of changes to the legs and arms, I don't know... I hope they show us some renders. Or even better, good quality pictures.
The ability to have true undercuts, figures with less parts, and the ability to get all the detail of metal figures into plastic ones is just so awesome that we had to make it work.
We're in the midst of JRAB and the first German Mech - the 3rd vehicle will either be a German Leopard anti-grav tank or a Marder APC. Which one would you like to see?
Stepping outside the ALIEN WAR verse for a moment - which one would be more useful for other game systems?
Let us know!
Some random images for inspiration...
And then he posts a bunch of pictures I don't know if I have the rights to or not.
We're in the midst of JRAB and the first German Mech - the 3rd vehicle will either be a German Leopard anti-grav tank or a Marder APC. Which one would you like to see?
Stepping outside the ALIEN WAR verse for a moment - which one would be more useful for other game systems?
Let us know!
Some random images for inspiration...
And then he posts a bunch of pictures I don't know if I have the rights to or not.
Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"
Despite the price-bump, this seems like a very wise move for Defiance. Basic terrain products that are already being reliably produced can be brought to market immediately without the potential customer backlash from missed deadlines and unmet expectations.
Despite the price-bump, this seems like a very wise move for Defiance. Basic terrain products that are already being reliably produced can be brought to market immediately without the potential customer backlash from missed deadlines and unmet expectations.
It is an interesting strategy.
1. Have massive trouble producing what you promise to produce 2. Become a joke of a company 3. Sell another company's product in hopes of bringing in revenue and mitigating damage previously done 4. Profit?
I'll buy Proxie products from Proxie if/when I need some (I do have some of their 15mm vehicles and terrain and love 'em)
Yeah, I mean, for someone who doesn't know their past history it looks like they are churning out products reliably, but any kind of digging reveals it's... not theirs.
Oh, and they're starting a podcast. And apparently there's going to be news concerning the JRAB soon.
Eilif wrote: Despite the price-bump, this seems like a very wise move for Defiance. Basic terrain products that are already being reliably produced can be brought to market immediately without the potential customer backlash from missed deadlines and unmet expectations.
No, it creates entirely new forms of customer backlash, when they find out you were ripping them off by charging 70% above the retail price.
As an aside, their new website does not work properly. Maybe it's because I do not accept their cookies but it keeps refreshing over and over again.
I don't understand selling other peoples' stuff for more than they charge. I really don't. There's no way that can be an effective business strategy if your buyer is willing to do just a tiny bit of research, and finding a relatively obscure company like Defiance in the first place requires some digging of its own already.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"
You seem to have at least 9000 posts about ripping on the company
Seriously is this what miniature wargaming has come down to? A bunch of 40 year olds on the internet finding every excuse to rip on various companies?
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"
You seem to have at least 9000 posts about ripping on the company
Seriously is this what miniature wargaming has come down to? A bunch of 40 year olds on the internet finding every excuse to rip on various companies?
You don't seem to realize the companies history and how they probably deserve a good bit of ripping on.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"
You seem to have at least 9000 posts about ripping on the company
Seriously is this what miniature wargaming has come down to? A bunch of 40 year olds on the internet finding every excuse to rip on various companies?
Hyperbole much? If I come to what I believe is a reasonable conclusion based on their past behaviour, then I do believe nothing stops me from sharing that opinion with others in the hopes that others will engage in business with them being forewarned. I thought this was part and parcel of this community, and I do believe that I am a level-headed member of it.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"
You seem to have at least 9000 posts about ripping on the company
Seriously is this what miniature wargaming has come down to? A bunch of 40 year olds on the internet finding every excuse to rip on various companies?
Hyperbole much? If I come to what I believe is a reasonable conclusion based on their past behaviour, then I do believe nothing stops me from sharing that opinion with others in the hopes that others will engage in business with them being forewarned. I thought this was part and parcel of this community, and I do believe that I am a level-headed member of it.
And besides, you have less than 2k posts total. No way you could have 9k just slagging defiance.
Well, you exist and multiple people have seen you in person and in pictures. Can we say the same for the Battle Eggs yet?
Maybe, instead of thinking a company deserves being ripped on because of growing pains and process development, you try to understand that starting a company and developing/growing a product line is difficult enough without having to also worry about people constantly ripping on them every time they attempt to explain the situation or release a new product.
Its actually easier for you to do nothing at all, but as has been pointed out, you chose the low road and decide to make drama.
I can say the same regarding the battle eggs. I, however, do not recall ever meeting Mr. Raymond or you, so am I left to believe that you are both just random internet ghosts because I haven't seen or met you?
Defiance has made mistakes and experienced their fair share of delays. The fact that they are still trying to make it work and fight an up hill battle shows their desire to succeed and improve the variety of products available in this market. Constantly harping on them does nothing positive, but improve some, already, over inflated post counts. If its that big a deal for you, go say hi to newbs, they could use the ego boost, I am sure. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/65.page
Maybe, instead of thinking a company deserves being ripped on because of growing pains and process development, you try to understand that starting a company and developing/growing a product line is difficult enough without having to also worry about people constantly ripping on them every time they attempt to explain the situation or release a new product.
Its actually easier for you to do nothing at all, but as has been pointed out, you chose the low road and decide to make drama.
I can say the same regarding the battle eggs. I, however, do not recall ever meeting Mr. Raymond or you, so am I left to believe that you are both just random internet ghosts because I haven't seen or met you?
Defiance has made mistakes and experienced their fair share of delays. The fact that they are still trying to make it work and fight an up hill battle shows their desire to succeed and improve the variety of products available in this market. Constantly harping on them does nothing positive, but improve some, already, over inflated post counts. If its that big a deal for you, go say hi to newbs, they could use the ego boost, I am sure. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/65.page
You are really not helping yourself by getting into this fray. I understand that you are now one of their business partners, but all you can do here is damage your own reputation.
Defiance has a questionable past, and deserves a lot of the flak they receive. Maybe not all of it, but definitely a lot of it.
rustforge wrote: Maybe, instead of thinking a company deserves being ripped on because of growing pains and process development, ...
Is 'growing pains' the new name for 'promising huge things, failing to deliver, blaming on everybody else, and then starting the whole cycle all over again' now?
How a company presents itself to the world has a great deal to do with how they are treated in return.
You are really not helping yourself by getting into this fray. I understand that you are now one of their business partners, but all you can do here is damage your own reputation.
Defiance has a questionable past, and deserves a lot of the flak they receive. Maybe not all of it, but definitely a lot of it.
There is much wisdom here; I understand that RustForge has a vested interest in people liking their business partner, but for a goodly portion of the market who are familiar with the story, that ship has long since sailed. I was very sympathetic to Defiance in the beginning, as their story sounded like someone who had gotten in over his head and was trying to make another go as a wiser, humbler company. Their actions since then with the many faults that insaniak lays out show that no, they did not learn from the debacle(s) that sank their last company, and people should be aware of that track record.
Also, "publicly mocking competitors without provocation" was left off your list insaniak.
So your saying that if a company makes mistakes, it is ok to ridicule them for it?
If the blame was warranted, is this still unacceptable? The mold makers came online and explained the delay with the marines. Tony explained each time that there was further delay, it WAS the mold makers failing to make their assigned due date, then the mold maker confirmed it.
When DG switched to resin, there was a longer learning curve than anticipated, tony explained that as well.
Now, when he is trying to offer a product that a lot of people may not know about, he is being accused of obfuscating the issues and covering bad history with delivered product. Maybe he is just trying to offer a product.
As the saying goes, sometimes a duck is just a duck. The way your interpreting things, he will be blamed for JFK, Lincoln and fathering hitler. I don't see this amount of animosity for every kickstarter that fails to deliver.
You are really not helping yourself by getting into this fray. I understand that you are now one of their business partners, but all you can do here is damage your own reputation.
Defiance has a questionable past, and deserves a lot of the flak they receive. Maybe not all of it, but definitely a lot of it.
There is much wisdom here; I understand that RustForge has a vested interest in people liking their business partner, but for a goodly portion of the market who are familiar with the story, that ship has long since sailed. I was very sympathetic to Defiance in the beginning, as their story sounded like someone who had gotten in over his head and was trying to make another go as a wiser, humbler company. Their actions since then with the many faults that insaniak lays out show that no, they did not learn from the debacle(s) that sank their last company, and people should be aware of that track record.
Also, "publicly mocking competitors without provocation" was left off your list insaniak.
I disagree that they "deserve" the flak. If they purposely were delaying product, then they would deserve flak. At this point, all the crap being said is basically kicking a horse while its down. They made mistakes and they have experienced delays because of it, I am sure the lost and delayed income are painful enough.
My comments have nothing to do with my being vested with DG. I just hate seeing all the crap that constantly gets said by people who assume they know the whole story. And comparing DG games issues to WF issues is a night and day comparission. WF was a calculated takeover by the manufacturer. Blaming tony for not seeing that coming is just messed up. And he did learn quite well from that debacle, that is why there are no Chinese plastic manufacturers involved. After reading everything about that situation, I geniunely feel bad for Dreamforge now that they are locked in with them. Curious how, they also, are experiencing delays with their products.
Shepherd23 wrote: And he did learn quite well from that debacle, that is why there are no Chinese plastic manufacturers involved. After reading everything about that situation, I geniunely feel bad for Dreamforge now that they are locked in with them. Curious how, they also, are experiencing delays with their products.
Maybe there should be more Chinese manufacturers involved. Since partnering with WGF, Dreamforge has produced some beautiful, highly-detailed kits which rival Games Workshop in quality. Since splitting with WGF, Defiance has put out... a handful of badly cast, poorly-detailed kits, which amount to less than half of what they've announced.
I think the past year has shown that contracting WGF has very little to do with a company's success or failure.
Shepherd23 wrote: I disagree that they "deserve" the flak. If they purposely were delaying product, then they would deserve flak. At this point, all the crap being said is basically kicking a horse while its down.
You don't kick a horse when it's down, you shoot it. And that seems an appropriate response to a company that doesn't know the meaning of the words "quality control" like Defiance Games.
Poor poor Defiance. The only reason they are not the new Big Thing is because some of us are meanies.
Sorry. ANY company that over a couple of years has repeated mistakes, learned new mistakes, and puts on the public face Defiance has is worthy of derision. In the real world, your customers and potential customers are going to let their feelings about your product and service known. If the business is not happy with those feelings, blaming the customers usually is not the right answer. 'Friends' of the business similarly blaming the customers/potential customers isn't going to build good will either. What builds good will is positive change. Frankly Defiance hasn't gone that route yet.
They have produced 4 kits at this point, only 3 in resin, and your biggest gripe is quality control? This is based off the few negative reviews that have made it here?
Consider that they are working in the hardest to manage medium in this hobby, resin. Then consider that they have only been using this medium for about a year or so. Then look at the tens of thousands of Finecast models that have so many issues that the line has become a punchline for failure jokes. At least DG is trying to produce a better quality set of kits and make it affordable instead of spoon feeding you garbage and calling it gold. They purposely hold back on producing kits for mass production because they realize there was an issue and you believe they have a lack of quality control? That is more insane than Insaniak's name.
They choose to use 'the hardest to manage medium in this hobby', screw it up, and I am supposed to feel bad for them?
Did you happen to see the pictures (in this thread) of product they shipped to paying customers? Did you not see the mis-cast items actually sent out?
Yep, QC is an issue. Those pictures of actual product shipped clearly show this to be the case.
Now I would argue QC isn't their biggest issue. But to attempt to argue it isn't an issue at all would seem silly based on the examples shown. Heck, the QC on their own product pictures is poor. Look at the blurry 'official' product photos they put out.
I never said there wasn't a quality issue. I did say they are aware of it and are attempting to rectify it. That's better than others in the industry, especially the supposed leader for the industry.
I also never told you how to feel. I said that considering what they doing, the massive amount of negativity hurled at them isn't really warranted.
They purposely hold back on producing kits for mass production because they realize there was an issue and you believe they have a lack of quality control? That is more insane than Insaniak's name.
As for unwarranted negativity, again, blaming folks who call it like they see it isn't going to fix any issues they have. The continued negativity is warranted until they prove, by actions, it is not. Frankly, they have had had more than enough chances to do so in my opinion. They continue to
1. ship items that should have failed QC controls
2. Accept money for product they cannot ship
3. fail to make good on promises
4. blame others for their failings
5. (this one is new) charge more for other company's product than what that company charged
You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.
1. They are attempting to resolve the issue as previously stated.
2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.
3. And 4. They never intended the delays. As already stated, QC has caused them to delay products.
5. They attempt to assist companies with bringing product to distribution levels far beyond their capabilities alone and you find fault with this?
Shepherd23 wrote: You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.
1. They are attempting to resolve the issue as previously stated.
2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.
3. And 4. They never intended the delays. As already stated, QC has caused them to delay products.
5. They attempt to assist companies with bringing product to distribution levels far beyond their capabilities alone and you find fault with this?
Considering that the guy behind Defiance is suppose to have experience from working for another miniatures company and that I've seen far better QC from one man outfits I cannot in all honesty recommend Defiance to anyone.
If Defiance manages to clean up its act and turn things around then I'd probably look at it in a much better light, though from what I've seen so far I feel it currently deserves the negativity its getting.
Rust Forge: Despite what you may feel about me, I still believe your product to be worth it, but make no mistake, I will only be buying from you directly. Defiance will not see a single *non-existent* canadian penny from me for your product. Did you hear the massive upsurge against the quality of your product on this forum? Me neither. That ought to be more than good for all involved, but I refuse to give them credit that is due to you entirely.
Exactly the same can be said about the Proxie Models barriers.
Regarding the few latest posts about quality control and resin, for me it boils down to this. I would be dissapointed to pay for those PZG, or the Chinese. Would I have a right to complain about it publicly? I believe so. That is one of the roles of a community, after all. We're not demonizing those who choose to still buy (at least I don't) after having seen both sides of the product (official company shots and reviews on Dakka). You have to able to be able to accept that some people judge products with different value scales than yours, mine just happens to include feet fully formed on models, but if that's ok with you, then I'm fine with it, I'd even play you, and pay for the libations once you've thoroughly trounced me.
There is a thread concerning Dreamforge, I suggest we take that discussion over there.
And can we give up on my post count already? I didn't know it was such an issue, but I'd be happy if the MODs lowered mine to a number befitting me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: None of the above should be read in anything else but a light-hearted tone of voice, just so ya'll know.
Remember, DG/Tony only had experience with having plastic model kits manufactured. With resin, he is as new as I am with plastic. As with all new manufacturing techniques, there is a learning curve. It took me 2 years of school to learn the software and then another year of research and design to actually get my container to market. Granted, I have my next 6 months products designed and ready for manufacturing, but there is always the learning curve to consider. Luckily, plastics issues are typically resolved before the public can even see it.
I will be trouncing no one. I suck at playing these games. Now munchkin, I am a devise bastard with that. And play me with lunch money and the beating you get will feel real!
Shepherd23 wrote: They have produced 4 kits at this point, only 3 in resin, and your biggest gripe is quality control? This is based off the few negative reviews that have made it here?
Consider that they are working in the hardest to manage medium in this hobby, resin. Then consider that they have only been using this medium for about a year or so. Then look at the tens of thousands of Finecast models that have so many issues that the line has become a punchline for failure jokes. At least DG is trying to produce a better quality set of kits and make it affordable instead of spoon feeding you garbage and calling it gold. They purposely hold back on producing kits for mass production because they realize there was an issue and you believe they have a lack of quality control?
They have produced 4 kits so far, and that is more than enough of a track record to berate their quality control. Nothing about DG's sub-par products in any way indicates that delays in production were a matter increasing QC. They aren't any better quality than Finecast, and a bad product is a bad product, even if it is cheap.
Resin may be difficult, but it's not a new technology. The problem here is that in one year DG has released 4 products. If they were learning from their mistakes the products would be getting better, even marginally. They aren't. We see scale issues, breakage prone models, and the kind of repeated casting flaws that clearly show sub-par QC in the moldmaking and production. That's why I and others sometimes come across as being hard on DG. They released one pretty good product (UAMC marines) and the only products that have matched that level of quality have been re-badged terrain from Rusforge and/or Proxie. DG needs to focus on getting out one new product that matches the quality of the plastic marines and stop getting sidetracked.
Also, please understand that most of the derision that DG defenders are seeing from us complainers is disappointment from folks who really wanted DG to do something great, but have been consistently presented with missed deadlines, sub-par products and excuses.
Well, apparently now they're coming in plastic boxes instead of cardboard ones:
http://defiancegames.com/news/item/we-ve-gone-plastic I don't know why that's a thing, or what the benefits of it are. If anything I'd figure they'd be more expensive to produce. They look like the cases for PC games.
Brother SRM wrote: Well, apparently now they're coming in plastic boxes instead of cardboard ones:
http://defiancegames.com/news/item/we-ve-gone-plastic I don't know why that's a thing, or what the benefits of it are. If anything I'd figure they'd be more expensive to produce. They look like the cases for PC games.
Playing follow the leader with the cases mantic does?
Shepherd23 wrote: You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.
2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.
Seriously?
They took money for the jeep thing, and have not delivered. Does that count as recent to you? It does to me.
Heck, right now they are allowing folks to preorder the barriers and containers. Is currently doing it recent enough for you? It is for me.
Brother SRM wrote: Well, apparently now they're coming in plastic boxes instead of cardboard ones:
http://defiancegames.com/news/item/we-ve-gone-plastic I don't know why that's a thing, or what the benefits of it are. If anything I'd figure they'd be more expensive to produce. They look like the cases for PC games.
It's possible that it's cheaper to buy these Video style cases and slip in paper with the product info and artwork. That would be a good move on DG's part. Hard cases might result in less shipping breakages.
From the website:
Going forward everything but the Marines will be in these (too many frames to fit in there for the UAMC!)
This on the other hand makes me sad as it looks like DG is going plasti-resin from here on out. I was really hoping to see some plastic figs (better quality than the plasti-resin) but I guess that's not in the cards now.
I looked into the plastic cases for Blackwater Gulch .. was even going to buy them direct from Mantic .. but the shipping price from the UK was crazy and my publisher decided to just do cardstock, it's cheaper and easier in the end.
I do like the look of the plastic cases for defiance and also mantic, looks good on the shelf. I dunno how many people keep the cases after the fact though. I have a few mantic ones sitting on my shelf that I've never used for anything but for some reason I don't wanna throw them out just in case I need them for something someday...
Shepherd23 wrote: You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.
2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.
Seriously?
They took money for the jeep thing, and have not delivered. Does that count as recent to you? It does to me.
Heck, right now they are allowing folks to preorder the barriers and containers. Is currently doing it recent enough for you? It is for me.
I was with the understanding that they had no outstsnding pre orders remaining. The container pre orders shipped ahead of schedule. The barriers are slated to ship ahead as well. As for the JRAB, I am not 100%, but I believe there are no outstanding orders for them currently either, but I could be mistaken on that product. If I am then I apologize for not being better informed on the subject, but your quoting the containers and barriers as shipping issues is way off the mark. This I do know for a fact.
Shepherd23 wrote: You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.
2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.
Seriously?
They took money for the jeep thing, and have not delivered. Does that count as recent to you? It does to me.
Heck, right now they are allowing folks to preorder the barriers and containers. Is currently doing it recent enough for you? It is for me.
They took my money for the jeep thing . . . then, when they realized they needed to do some more work on it, they gave me the option to sub out other product instead.
They took my money for the jeep thing . . . then, when they realized they needed to do some more work on it, they gave me the option to sub out other product instead.
Hi All - I just wanted to clarify something here. With the JRAB vehicle we were producing them in spincast plastic and found we had an opportunity to switch to injection molding. Since we had just announced them and had only had a few pre-orders - we took them out of the shop and gave each of the pre-orderers three choices. Here is the email that was sent:
I wanted to write to update you on your JRAB order.
We've been a bit silent on the JRAB because we had been making some changes on the mold as I mentioned in my last email - but in the meantime we uncovered an opportunity to take this further.
I've been working with a new company and we are finalizing the project to switch the JRAB to be produced in injection molded plastic. This will be our first set to be done with injection molding since the Marines were released last year and potentially the first of many new releases to come from this new vendor.
We will still be putting out a load of new sets in our spincast plastic because it gives us the opportunity to do some details and parts that are just impossible with injection molding.
The files for the redesigned JRAB kit will be off to the toolmaker next week. We expect the project will take about a month to complete - possibly as much as two months depending on any unforeseen issues arising. But we also expect the finished product to be REALLY sharp!
I wanted to offer you three options because of this change and delay:
1. A full refund ASAP
2. A replacement set for your JRAB order - i.e. Marines, Germans, Chinese, Bugs, Worms. Yes, Chinese - we have a LOAD of them cast up and ready to go. We just haven't finished the boxes yet.
or
3. If you would like to wait I'm going to double your JRAB order once the injection molded version is finished
In the meantime we're going to take the JRAB down from ordering until we have the new parts in hand. And I would appreciate it if you could keep this under your hat. This is big news for us and we'd love to surprise people in a few weeks!
Please let me know which of the three options you'd like to go with. Thank you for your patience and look for a LOT of new stuff coming out over the next few weeks as we gear up for the JRAB launch!
*****
There were 15 orders with the JRAB as part and everyone with the exception of Xeno asked to wait for the injection molded version. That is underway now and we're just waiting to hear back what the final schedule looks like for tooling.
I understand there is frustration with us out there with our progress. Please know that we've been incredibly frustrated with our progress for two years now. Nobody really wants to hear that though -they just want nicely made toys and that's what we're focused on every day. We don't have huge resources and our delays have meant that we have even less to work with. But we've kept moving forward little by little. The new process with the spincast plastic is going really well. We've been extremely happy with the results.
There's been a huge learning curve - first with trying to do injection molding in the US and then with spincasting the plastic. Mold designs have changed a bunch of times. The process, the materials, everything has changed many, many times as we've figured it out. Every time we thought we were where we needed to be - some new issue would crop up. A great example are the neck rings on the Chinese. Those were too thin for the plastic - so we had to go back and have them resculpted. Then the new molds with those had an issue because of a bad mold frame. I very much feel like I'm cursed half the time!
That all said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that we haven't lived up to our potential. But we continue to work at it and the new team that is involved in production and quality control and sculpting - are doing some great work. We believe you will really like what we have coming. The Chinese are a really great set of figures sculpted by Bob Naismith - and now that we've worked out the neck issue they look fantastic. The revised Germans are looking incredible. And the JRAB and German mech in injection molded plastic are going to be fabulous kits. The big one that I've been waiting for - and I know many others are - is the UAMC Hardsuits. The sculpts are fantastic. We're really excited to get them going.
If you want me to - I'll do my best to try to respond here more often. Let me know.
Xeno wrote: They took my money for the jeep thing . . . then, when they realized they needed to do some more work on it, they gave me the option to sub out other product instead.
You forgot the full refund or double your order options, right?
The new JRAB in plastic will be a conventional panel kit.
Wow wow wow, hang on a second. What's this about "revised" Germans? If some of the more critical issues with the kit could be fixed, I would be willing to reconsider my stance on the company.
Something that the defenders of Defiance need to realize is that none of us want to dislike the company. We're just disappointed. I really, really wanted to like the PzGs, but they just weren't good enough.
Well, then, if they can pull a panel kit on the vehicle, that might go over very well. I can't stand sentinels but always wanted a light vehicle alternative.
Xeno wrote: They took my money for the jeep thing . . . then, when they realized they needed to do some more work on it, they gave me the option to sub out other product instead.
You forgot the full refund or double your order options, right?
The new JRAB in plastic will be a conventional panel kit.
I decided to switch out to Chinese because I wanted to see how they turned out.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the JRAB, Mech, and Hardsuits turn out. I've got a project I'd like the make the hardsuits part of if they turn out reasonably okay.
Tony et al,
Just make sure you spend the extra time fine-tuning them. The only really significant problem with the Chinese, aside from some mold slippage, was that they need a couple of extra vents. Add those in and they'd be fine, really!
Xeno wrote: They took my money for the jeep thing . . . then, when they realized they needed to do some more work on it, they gave me the option to sub out other product instead.
You forgot the full refund or double your order options, right?
The new JRAB in plastic will be a conventional panel kit.
Xeno is a notorious hater of everything Defiance does, you should DEFINITELY jump down his throat about omitting irrelevant details from the description of what he did.
This is quickly becoming the most negative thread on Dakka.
...
On a more positive note, I preordered the UAMC marines when they came out and got them delivered in a geologically timely manner. My gunny arrived earlier this year (2013), too.
I hope the War Store gets some of the bugs in around November 26th, because I have a feeling I'll be in the mood to buy, buy, buy.
About the JRAB. I assumed this was a creation of Defiance Games, however on closer examination it appears to be a copy of the real world Komatsu LAV used by the Japanese Army.
renko1917 wrote: About the JRAB. I assumed this was a creation of Defiance Games, however on closer examination it appears to be a copy of the real world Komatsu LAV used by the Japanese Army.
Welcome to Dakka renko! Yes we really liked the lines of the Komatsu and did some tweaks to future-ize it. We think it will be a fun little vehicle for any SF battlefield. Or the modern/near future guys can strip out the SF elements and use it as a Komatsu!
renko1917 wrote: About the JRAB. I assumed this was a creation of Defiance Games, however on closer examination it appears to be a copy of the real world Komatsu LAV used by the Japanese Army.
There's nothing wrong with that. The Space Marine Rhino is essentially an M113 APC but with doors on the sides, and that's an iconic kit. Science fiction especially borrows/steals from absolutely everything.
So wait, is Defiance going to redo the Germans in proper hard plastic!? If they do, that might fix a lot of the problems that the restic ones had. If that happens, I might actually consider purchasing another set. I really wanted to like them, but the QC just wasn't up to par. Too many figures with mold slipage, too many figures with soft, smudgey details, lots of guns missing handles, barrels missing, or just plain miscast. If they're redone and the issues are addressed, hell, I might even buy several boxes of them.
I gather they're just sizing them up. The original ones are too small when compared to the Marines. And I don't just mean "different armor styles" small. The bodies underneath the armor are vastly different, unless the Germans are actually all 14 year-old boys (or the Americans freakishly huge).
Increasing the size and making some of the details deeper would help with the smudged details (there aren't any, actually, except in the forearm plates for some reason) and making the gun barrels thicker and adding extra vents would take care of the gun barrels vanishing.
Xeno wrote: I gather they're just sizing them up. The original ones are too small when compared to the Marines. And I don't just mean "different armor styles" small. The bodies underneath the armor are vastly different, unless the Germans are actually all 14 year-old boys (or the Americans freakishly huge).
Increasing the size and making some of the details deeper would help with the smudged details (there aren't any, actually, except in the forearm plates for some reason) and making the gun barrels thicker and adding extra vents would take care of the gun barrels vanishing.
No - we're completely resculpting them to match the artwork and scale better. The original designs were made for injection molding and on top of that there were too many small scale details that just didn't work. Scale-wise they are the same size. But the armor needs to be bulkier to represent Armor 4 in the ALIEN WAR rules as compared to Armor 3 for the UAMC Marines and Armor 1-2 for the Chinese Militia.
Xeno wrote: I gather they're just sizing them up. The original ones are too small when compared to the Marines. And I don't just mean "different armor styles" small. The bodies underneath the armor are vastly different, unless the Germans are actually all 14 year-old boys (or the Americans freakishly huge).
Increasing the size and making some of the details deeper would help with the smudged details (there aren't any, actually, except in the forearm plates for some reason) and making the gun barrels thicker and adding extra vents would take care of the gun barrels vanishing.
No - we're completely resculpting them to match the artwork and scale better. The original designs were made for injection molding and on top of that there were too many small scale details that just didn't work. Scale-wise they are the same size. But the armor needs to be bulkier to represent Armor 4 in the ALIEN WAR rules as compared to Armor 3 for the UAMC Marines and Armor 1-2 for the Chinese Militia.
Interesting. I'll have to keep an eye on this. As I said before, I was really excited about the PzGs, and therefore really disappointed when they finally arrived. If the detail is better and closer to the concept art, I'd be willing to give them a try.
Please, please, PLEASE go hard plastic with the new Germans. I had so many problems with my set just from the material choice alone, most of the figures wouldn't even glue together. Please avoid that issue all together and make these out of hard plastic.
Xeno wrote: I didn't realize it was a full re-scuplt. Here's hoping we'll get those big, bulky, heavily-armed Germans yet!
Anyone else have this come to mind?
Yes, it does. But being a hopeless romantic, I still hope they deliver. More quality offerings on the market is ultimately a good thing. Emphasis on quality, not just offerings.
Yes, it does. But being a hopeless romantic, I still hope they deliver. More quality offerings on the market is ultimately a good thing. Emphasis on quality, not just offerings.
QFT. Nothing wrong with more good offerings in the market, no matter how skeptical I remain of any given company. If Mierce can rehabilitate their image after the Maelstrom implosion, Defiance can overcome more mundane issues with delivery timeframes and QC. Not saying that I'd be chomping at the bit to purchase these outside of a retailer, but I do have a soft spot for German military styling. Done well and on the shelf, I could be interested.
renko1917 wrote: About the JRAB. I assumed this was a creation of Defiance Games, however on closer examination it appears to be a copy of the real world Komatsu LAV used by the Japanese Army.
There's nothing wrong with that. The Space Marine Rhino is essentially an M113 APC but with doors on the sides, and that's an iconic kit. Science fiction especially borrows/steals from absolutely everything.
I would humbly disagree. The Rhino, in all its forms, is clearly inspired by the M113 type "box on tracks" APC, but is visually totally different. There are currently a number of similar LAV \ Hummer inspired sci fi vehicles out there from Antenocities, Khurassan, GZG and others, but these like the M113 \ Rhino analogy are inspired by but clearly different to the originals. The JRAB, judging from the pics so far released, is a direct copy of the Komatsu LAV only with different wheels and a new roof mounted weapon station (or hole, as it is also known). I would guess it is somewhere around 90-95% a straight copy of the Komatsu.
I rather like it, but that doesnt detract from the fact its a copy being sold as something original.
renko1917 wrote: About the JRAB. I assumed this was a creation of Defiance Games, however on closer examination it appears to be a copy of the real world Komatsu LAV used by the Japanese Army.
There's nothing wrong with that. The Space Marine Rhino is essentially an M113 APC but with doors on the sides, and that's an iconic kit. Science fiction especially borrows/steals from absolutely everything.
I would humbly disagree. The Rhino, in all its forms, is clearly inspired by the M113 type "box on tracks" APC, but is visually totally different. There are currently a number of similar LAV \ Hummer inspired sci fi vehicles out there from Antenocities, Khurassan, GZG and others, but these like the M113 \ Rhino analogy are inspired by but clearly different to the originals. The JRAB, judging from the pics so far released, is a direct copy of the Komatsu LAV only with different wheels and a new roof mounted weapon station (or hole, as it is also known). I would guess it is somewhere around 90-95% a straight copy of the Komatsu.
I rather like it, but that doesnt detract from the fact its a copy being sold as something original.
So what? There is enough legit stuff to complain about with Defiance Games. This is pretty weak. I'm also glad you did a scientific investigation to let us know it is exactly a 90-95% copy.........
when have a minis company ever given out free replacements when a figure gets a resculpt?
But seriously, how many figures companies withdraw something within a few months of going on sale only to re-sculpt them to be completely different.
Even GW wait more than a year or so to replace a range with something incompatible It's not as if they didn't admit the reason is because they got the original set wrong!
If it was any other consumer item than miniatures, the question wouldn't be considered unrealistic
For me, it's really way too early to make any sort of value judgement on the new sculpt. It has the potential to be better, but that doesn't mean anything. I would think that Defiance would get better with practice, but the Chinese set seems to be the worst product they've ever produced. Time will tell, I guess.
Posthumous wrote: If it was any other consumer item than miniatures, the question wouldn't be considered unrealistic
It really would be.
I just bought a 2013 Camaro. Should GM send me a new 2014 Camaro because it has a redesigned body?
(I wouldn't want to anyway, I really dislike the 2014's tail lights)
when have a minis company ever given out free replacements when a figure gets a resculpt?
But seriously, how many figures companies withdraw something within a few months of going on sale only to re-sculpt them to be completely different.
Even GW wait more than a year or so to replace a range with something incompatible It's not as if they didn't admit the reason is because they got the original set wrong!
If it was any other consumer item than miniatures, the question wouldn't be considered unrealistic
Doesn't happen very often BUT the Germans were really bad and didn't even fit scale wise with their previous minis. I think it is really good that they are redoing them. Is it bad they were bad in the first place? Absolutely. Does it suck for people who already bought them? Absolutely and hopefully they offer people who bought them some kind of discount on the new ones.
Guildsman wrote: For me, it's really way too early to make any sort of value judgement on the new sculpt. It has the potential to be better, but that doesn't mean anything. I would think that Defiance would get better with practice, but the Chinese set seems to be the worst product they've ever produced. Time will tell, I guess.
What exactly are you measuring with the Chinese being the worst yet? I am just curious.
Guildsman wrote: For me, it's really way too early to make any sort of value judgement on the new sculpt. It has the potential to be better, but that doesn't mean anything. I would think that Defiance would get better with practice, but the Chinese set seems to be the worst product they've ever produced. Time will tell, I guess.
What exactly are you measuring with the Chinese being the worst yet? I am just curious.
Setting aside casting quality (which is a major issue itself), the Chinese set is just... ugly. Badly proportioned, chunky, unnatural. The faces in particular look distorted. I think they hold up poorly, even compared to the rest of the Defiance range. For me, their marines are still the best kit they've put out. Maybe I'm just spoiled by the plethora of amazing options available today, but they just seem sub-par.
I think that they know it, too. When you go to their online store, there is one small, blurry picture for the kit, which is all but useless. You basically have to buy it sight-unseen, which just feels dishonest. Why would I buy a product that the manufacturer doesn't feel comfortable displaying?
Ick, I read on their announcement that those new Germans are still going to be restic. Why keep working with the stuff? It may be cheaper, but it seems way more prone to having faulty castings than regular hard plastic does.
Hard plastic is not that easy to come by, though. It requires a significant investment. I've never had any in my hands, but Mantic seems to be able to produce good minis with restic. Trollcast apparently has been used to great effect.
I don't think we can lay all the blame at the foot of the material used. We'll see how those resculpts turn out.
The hilarious thing is that it wasn't all that long ago that people were bitching about how inferior plastic minis were -- low detail, cheap production values, etc -- and wondering why companies didn't use metal for everything. I still see the occasional grognard complaining about how inferior plastics are.
Xeno wrote: The hilarious thing is that it wasn't all that long ago that people were bitching about how inferior plastic minis were -- low detail, cheap production values, etc -- and wondering why companies didn't use metal for everything. I still see the occasional grognard complaining about how inferior plastics are.
I like plastic kits and the variety they can provide as well as the easy of conversion. However, most plastics still are inferior to metal in some ways. Unless you use even-more-expensive- sliding molds, plastics still end up without undercuts and such. The flexible rubber molds used for metal allow details in the undersides and in inverse crevasses that you can't get with a metal mold. Additionally, while metal models don't give you the variety of poses as a multipart/multipose plastic kit, the plastic kit will never be able to give you the accurate physiological poses that a unified metal sculpt allows.
Plastic is great, and I'd prefer it to resin, resi-plastic or pvc any day, but there are very real benefits to a well-cast metal figure.
Besides your argument is a touch unfair because folks on this thread are complaining about the differences between plastic and resi-plastics, for which there are real differences, especially when looking at the products that Defiance has produced.
Barzam wrote: Why keep working with the stuff? It may be cheaper, but it seems way more prone to having faulty castings than regular hard plastic does.
That's your answer. Faulty castings don't matter because you can make the customer fix that themselves.
Eilif wrote: Besides your argument is a touch unfair because folks on this thread are complaining about the differences between plastic and resi-plastics, for which there are real differences, especially when looking at the products that Defiance has produced.
Though, as far as I can tell, those fault castings are the fault of Defiance, not the material they are working in. I like the material itself and think it'll be a perfectly good substitute for metal (which I hate -- I can't seem to get a paint job to actually stick to a metal figure for more than a couple of minutes because it chips off).
Though, as far as I can tell, those fault castings are the fault of Defiance, not the material they are working in. I like the material itself and think it'll be a perfectly good substitute for metal (which I hate -- I can't seem to get a paint job to actually stick to a metal figure for more than a couple of minutes because it chips off).
That's odd about metal and paint. I've not had that problem, and I've painted hundreds of metal soldiers. I don't think any of my clubmates have had that problem either, and we've got quite a few decades of gaming between us.
Perhaps I can help. A couple questions.
-Are you washing them before priming?
-What are you using to prime?
-How do you hold them when painting?
-What do you use to varnish them post-painting?
As for the Defiance material, I confess I can't speak to it. I don't own any figures in the Troll-cast (Trollforge does their casting, yes?) and as yet the reviews of Defiance Resin products have kept me away. That said, my experiences with resin, and pvc have not been any better (and in many cases worse) than metal, for whatever that's worth. At this point, only Battle Eggs (a fairly unique product) would tempt me into Defiance resin, and I'd buy them understanding that quite a bit of work would likely be necessary.
Troll Forge created the plastic-resin mix but Defiance does the vetting of molds and casting, so the errors are pretty much all theirs. The material itself is fine -- a different texture than high impact polystyrene and a little softer, but not brittle in the least, unlike traditional resin. I like it. I also like the PVC figures made by Reaper.
Xeno wrote: Though, as far as I can tell, those fault castings are the fault of Defiance, not the material they are working in. I like the material itself and think it'll be a perfectly good substitute for metal (which I hate -- I can't seem to get a paint job to actually stick to a metal figure for more than a couple of minutes because it chips off).
Even if the quality of the castings was not Defiance's fault, allowing them to reach the customer would be. Subcontracting is not an excuse for a lack of quality control.
Xeno wrote: Troll Forge created the plastic-resin mix but Defiance does the vetting of molds and casting, so the errors are pretty much all theirs. The material itself is fine -- a different texture than high impact polystyrene and a little softer, but not brittle in the least, unlike traditional resin. I like it. I also like the PVC figures made by Reaper.
Good to know. There's so many variations on resin and plastic these days. How similar is it to the resi-plastic that Mantic is using?
I have mixed feelings about Bones figures. I love the price, and many of the miniatures, but many of the miniatures in my KS order were just not as nice as their metal counterparts, in very noticable ways. Soft faces, mold lines in difficult to reach places, miscast detail, etc. By no means all, but a far higher number than I would deem acceptable. It's odd, because the Bones figure I bought pre-kickstarter was perfect. At this point I'll probably buy any future Bones in person, as if the sculpt is nearly-as-good, and I can't find the metal figure used, I'll buy bones over metal any day just for the price savings.
Xeno wrote: Troll Forge created the plastic-resin mix but Defiance does the vetting of molds and casting, so the errors are pretty much all theirs. The material itself is fine -- a different texture than high impact polystyrene and a little softer, but not brittle in the least, unlike traditional resin. I like it. I also like the PVC figures made by Reaper.
Good to know. There's so many variations on resin and plastic these days. How similar is it to the resi-plastic that Mantic is using?
I have mixed feelings about Bones figures. I love the price, and many of the miniatures, but many of the miniatures in my KS order were just not as nice as their metal counterparts, in very noticable ways. Soft faces, mold lines in difficult to reach places, miscast detail, etc. By no means all, but a far higher number than I would deem acceptable. It's odd, because the Bones figure I bought pre-kickstarter was perfect. At this point I'll probably buy any future Bones in person, as if the sculpt is nearly-as-good, and I can't find the metal figure used, I'll buy bones over metal any day just for the price savings.
I really couldn't tell you how they compare; I don't own any other plastic-resin figures. I also didn't get in on the Reaper Kickstarter (I was broke at the time), so all I have to go by are the pre-Kickstarter figures which are more than just fine. I suspect Kickstarter figure problems are more of an issue with poor quality control related to mass volume. I doubt they had the personnel, either in the US or in China, to make sure everything coming out was high quality.
That, however, is a problem with Reaper, not the material. However, they did say that part of the reason for the Kickstarter was to fund the equipment to moved manufacturing in-house, so these problems might be temporary.
Anyway, it seems to me that the real problem with plastic resin is the same problem with plastics previously: it's a new material and manufacturing method and it'll take time for people to know exactly how to work with it and what its strengths and weaknesses are. Even Defiance, to their credit, has been learning. The Chinese aren't a good set, but they are better than the Germans and I do think they're learning. I just also think they need to spend the extra time and effort into learning, prototyping, and fine-tuning rather than shipping said prototypes off to the customers.
Having miniatures produced in plastic is nowhere the same as self producing miniatures in any form of resin.
Also, producing resin miniature at a level of production suitable for distribution as opposed to individual sales is also very different. For an example of a proven minis producer having a steep learning curve, just look at GW. Finecast still comes out with some major flaws, yet GW still sells it and people keep buying it.
Defiance has admitted to having issues and they are actively working on it. They have pulled and are replacing an entire set because of issues. They have held of selling items because of issues. And when people got faulty minis, they actively sought to rectify the issue. It seems to me they are doing a lot more right than wrong.
Don't be silly, another company demonstrating terrible QC doesn't suddenly make it cool to sell shoddy product.
They have been having "issues" since their inception. As soon as they produce a professionally cast, quality sculpt I'll consider them to be doing anything right at all, let alone more right than wrong.
Right now they are a garage operation that has inexplicably managed to get hobbyists to fund their resin casting learning curve.
This isn't vindictive, I want to buy cool models that I'll never use from great companies and sculptors. Start producing quality products and stop fething around and you won't get irritated people rolling their eyes in threads like this.
Alright, pages back someone mentioned Defiance selling another companies terrain at a mark up. The Cargo contianers ?
Because, honestly, I liked the way they looked, but thought the price was too damn high. If I could get them elsewhere significantly less expensive I would be interested in that.
adamsouza wrote: Alright, pages back someone mentioned Defiance selling another companies terrain at a mark up. The Cargo contianers ?
Because, honestly, I liked the way they looked, but thought the price was too damn high. If I could get them elsewhere significantly less expensive I would be interested in that.
Rust Forge sells the containers for about 3 bucks less each. It's not a huge difference though and if you buy Defiance from any of the many online retailers who knock 20% off as a matter of course then the Defiance price is the same as the Rustforge direct price.
I sell the Rust Forge containers for $12.99. DG sells the containers for a slightly increased $15.00 each. This is only a $2.00 difference, not $3.00. I wouldn't have allowed that high a mark up.
And we do attend shows and we do have show specials. If you are willing to wait that long for a couple of dollars off, that is your choice and I will see you at the show.
Shepherd23 wrote: Proxy doesn't sell the containers, just Rust Forge and Defiance.
Could've sworn I saw them there not that long ago, but I may have been confusing a visit to Rust Forgo with Proxie's store, which seems to not exist right now.
Not sure what may have happened, but I just checked the Proxy Models store page and it is up and running as of 4:23PM EST. Maybe a work filter or temporary glitch.
I also checked while I was there, no shipping containers.
when have a minis company ever given out free replacements when a figure gets a resculpt?
But seriously, how many figures companies withdraw something within a few months of going on sale only to re-sculpt them to be completely different.
Even GW wait more than a year or so to replace a range with something incompatible It's not as if they didn't admit the reason is because they got the original set wrong!
If it was any other consumer item than miniatures, the question wouldn't be considered unrealistic
Hello Chris Valera. I notice you have some Romeo on you ever since you got banned from the Defiance Games Facebook page.
I asked a question about the size difference between marines and PZG, I think. It was a technical issue, but all I got was snide answers about Dreamforge games. Yes, I've been a fan of their work, but I fail to see how that should affect my standing vis-Ã -vis Defiance. I am a customer that wants to give them money. If they can't be bothered with it, they should just tell me straight out.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I asked a question about the size difference between marines and PZG, I think. It was a technical issue, but all I got was snide answers about Dreamforge games. Yes, I've been a fan of their work, but I fail to see how that should affect my standing vis-Ã -vis Defiance. I am a customer that wants to give them money. If they can't be bothered with it, they should just tell me straight out.
Perhaps the snide answers were their way of doing exactly that.
Hello Chris Valera. I notice you have some Romeo on you ever since you got banned from the Defiance Games Facebook page.
Sadly you seem to have me confused with someone else, I've not been banned from any site to my knowledge.
Sorry that I seem to have upset you, that wasn't my intention, I was just saying what I thought!
(Also for the life of me, I have no idea what "have some Romeo on you" means! Is it some American term? I assume it has noting to do with Romeo & Juliet!)
porkuslime wrote: Romeo Filip owns Battlefoam, and has been a High Profile drama magnet, and source.
Ah! I see, so this Romeo Filip and Chris Valera have been conducting some kind of vendetta against Defiance then?
Well I can assure everyone it's nothing to do with me, I just made one (I thought fairly tame) comment about Defiance and it's all blown up in my face and now I seem to be one of the triumvirate of evil!
Never mind, I assume I get some kind of secret lair as part of the deal? ;-)
Yes. I'll PM you the coordinates. We have a giant screen for sporting events. The schedule is complex because of the confusion surrounding the term "football", but we should manage.
porkuslime wrote: Romeo Filip owns Battlefoam, and has been a High Profile drama magnet, and source.
Ah! I see, so this Romeo Filip and Chris Valera have been conducting some kind of vendetta against Defiance then?
Well I can assure everyone it's nothing to do with me, I just made one (I thought fairly tame) comment about Defiance and it's all blown up in my face and now I seem to be one of the triumvirate of evil!
Never mind, I assume I get some kind of secret lair as part of the deal? ;-)
Wouldn't let it get to you, certain drama magnet faces on the site have a habit of making a new account just to post gak and cause more drama. Was just a case of your low post count coming in at the wrong moment. Welcome to the site!
porkuslime wrote: Romeo Filip owns Battlefoam, and has been a High Profile drama magnet, and source.
Ah! I see, so this Romeo Filip and Chris Valera have been conducting some kind of vendetta against Defiance then?
Well I can assure everyone it's nothing to do with me, I just made one (I thought fairly tame) comment about Defiance and it's all blown up in my face and now I seem to be one of the triumvirate of evil!
Never mind, I assume I get some kind of secret lair as part of the deal? ;-)
Wouldn't let it get to you, certain drama magnet faces on the site have a habit of making a new account just to post gak and cause more drama. Was just a case of your low post count coming in at the wrong moment. Welcome to the site!
I apologize if this is thread necromancy (it has been more than a few weeks but this thread will likely stay around as long as DG will be - anyone's guess on that count), but didn't see this one being resolved: [EDIT: it was, just needed to go one page further back - I can't seem to find a way to delete this post, is there one?]
People pointing out that Proxy doesn't carry the containers are absolutely correct, but they do have the barriers. They sell them for $1.17 apiece (6 for $7) and DG sells them for $2 a pop (15 for $30). Still not a bad price though. Just thought I'd toss it out there.
I really want to like Defiance (I've ordered Marines - which were sort of crap, but a good value - and bugs - which are neat but I've yet to find much use for them) but I'm continually underwhelmed by their product. The Germans had me with my hopes really high and the samples I got with my bugs went together okay with a bit of super glue and were relatively miscast free, but they were oddly stick like in proportion and posed like bad action figures. The new re-sculpts almost look like they're going too far in the other direction, but I'll withhold final judgement until we see the finished product.
The worms are sort of neat, but are really just a little gimmick and not a main line.
The vehicles are cool, slightly less impressed knowing that they're not an original design, but want a bunch of them nonetheless.
The Chinese are just atrocious, horrible little sculpts with proportions even the worst cartoonist wouldn't tolerate. Which is odd, because Bob Naismith has done some very nice work, I'm at a loss for why these are so bad.
And the containers and walls are just markups of stuff available elsewhere.
All that said, I'll be singing their praises and lobbing wads of cash at them if the German re-sculpt turns out well or if they release decent kits of the long promised and never delivered (much like my gunny - don't really care too much on that one though) female marines, hard-suits, or the German walker (even better if they take the pictures of these things with a camera instead of a potato, as has been their habit). I'll also be wanting a large number of those Japanese jeep thingies when I can get them.
More bad news on the Defiance Games front. The post below is from TMP (and is, I believe, from the owner of Proxy models who supplied the shipping containers Defiance were selling)
"KenofYork 16 Oct 2013 6:34 p.m. PST
I would like to warn people that I have had an extremely unpleasant dealing with the new management. Be very careful about these guys. I am owed a lot of money and I have been informed that the new management will not pay debts owed by Tony. I have a very strong reason to believe the management shift was a shell game to make the kick starter look better. Can't prove it, but have a very strong feeling about it.
This company has been the worst dealings I have had in my limited time as a part time, one man plastic company. I will NEVER work with them again.
They had planned for me to make the plastic mech in the kick starter with out ever even talking to me about it. I found out I was the supplier after reading the kick starter and asking who was making it. I told them I would not be making anything for a company that owed me thousands of dollars and was making no attempt to pay. After I was paid for previous product I would be willing to look at the files and see what could be done. Well, they got a pile of money from kick starter and found someone else to make the mech. And they told me weeks ago they would be returning product, but they have not. This is NOT ok with me, but I have no choice. I would not have made the items if they had not ordered them. Still they have the items in their store, I have no money, and they are setting on almost $50,000 USD in kick starter money.
I am very sorry if this seems to be a bad business move to spread bad news about another company, but I am angry beyond the capacity for rational thought.
Be very careful dealing with them."
Really bad news for him (I hope he has a contract he can enforce in the courts while there is some KS cash in the company),
Really bad news for those who backed the recent KS (especially if the funds end up paying Defiances debts)
I am very glad I pulled my pledge from the Defiance Kickstarter and then turned around and bought $80 worth of plastic terrain from Ken @ Proxie models! Strange how the universe works!
Yeah, I had no interest in backing it due to their history, and it looks like I was right in not doing so. That's some really shady business practices they did. Not cool.
when have a minis company ever given out free replacements when a figure gets a resculpt?
But seriously, how many figures companies withdraw something within a few months of going on sale only to re-sculpt them to be completely different.
Even GW wait more than a year or so to replace a range with something incompatible It's not as if they didn't admit the reason is because they got the original set wrong!
If it was any other consumer item than miniatures, the question wouldn't be considered unrealistic
Hello Chris Valera. I notice you have some Romeo on you ever since you got banned from the Defiance Games Facebook page.
Uh... what?
This isn't a sockpuppet account of mine, if that's what you're implying.
I've already stated that I would buy like $300 worth of the Hudson's Bugs if I could ever get a report that they were well cast and worth buying. I'm not a hater, as so many seem to be. But I'm rethinking my purchase ever since I *was* banned from the Defiance Games facebook page. I don't even know why, the whole point of social media is to have a discussion with your customers.
See as how we're still waiting for product and don't know if Tony Reidy is still with the company, and I'm still banned from their facebook page, it looks like I'll be putting off my purchase even more.
You weren't discussing... you were blatantly trolling and gleefully posting screencaps here to gloat. I'm no fan of this company due to their past and apparently ongoing practices but frankly banning you from commenting on their facebook page was probably the only 100% right thing the company has done in the past year. Don't get me wrong... if any company deserves flak, it's likely this one (especially with this latest news).. but to characterize your posting on their facebook page as anything but harassment is false. To call it the innocent discussion of a "potential" customer is just laughable. Troll them all you want but at least own up to what you're doing.
Geez, I wish Ken had come out with this info while the Kickstarter was going on. I wouldn't have been so willing to give them a second chance.
Well, I guess there's nothing I can do about it now but wait and see if they've at least learned to produce a passable product. At least they didn't get that much from me.
warboss wrote: You weren't discussing... you were blatantly trolling and gleefully posting screencaps here to gloat.
Oh brother, listen to this BS. I'm sure you know so well why I did things, and aren't projecting at all... Tell me, where do ypu get your super special awesome telepathic link that let's you telepathically know my motivations? Did you get hit by a truck carrying radioactive marterials, or bombarded with gamma rays or something? Are they magical powers? Please, tell me more!
warboss wrote: I'm no fan of this company due to their past and apparently ongoing practices but frankly banning you from commenting on their facebook page was probably the only 100% right thing the company has done in the past year. Don't get me wrong... if any company deserves flak, it's likely this one (especially with this latest news).. but to characterize your posting on their facebook page as anything but harassment is false. To call it the innocent discussion of a "potential" customer is just laughable. Troll them all you want but at least own up to what you're doing.
So the company deserves flak, but I'm a bad person for giving them some?
I also posted that I was thinking about ordering the 10-box deal, so yeah, they lost a customer. Although now that I checked, the 10-box deal seems to be "out of stock:" so I dunno...
It's also not trolling. Some of you here on dakkadakka have the thinnest skin. I wonder how you function in the real world. I post in the Mantic threads saying I think certain figures are average, or below average (witness the "cathorse" debacle) and BOOM, I get a suspension for a few days. Some of you just can't handle real discussion.
Come over to rgmw sometime, we'll show you what real discussion looks like. That dust up on the Defiance Games facebook is like nursery school compared to what goes on there.
judgedoug wrote: I have a box of Hudson's bugs if anyone wants 'em for what I paid for them. 29.95 plus shipping.
I opened the box, looked at the minis, and then put them back in the box. They came out ok for the most part, not including the warped bases .. but either way I just don't think I'll ever get around to painting em.
Necros wrote: I opened the box, looked at the minis, and then put them back in the box. They came out ok for the most part, not including the warped bases .. but either way I just don't think I'll ever get around to painting em.
This is okay, I plan to re-base them on magnetic bases from GF9 anyway, now that they make 30mm bases.
I'm just shocked that whther you decided you wanted to keep them or not, that you actually got the figures you paid for.
chris_valera wrote: Oh brother, listen to this BS. I'm sure you know so well why I did things, and aren't projecting at all... Tell me, where do ypu get your super special awesome telepathic link that let's you telepathically know my motivations? Did you get hit by a truck carrying radioactive marterials, or bombarded with gamma rays or something? Are they magical powers? Please, tell me more!
No superpowers... I simply read your original posts including the pics *YOU* posted of you trolling them on their facebook page. I'd post the link but...
chris_valera wrote: (as an aside, I'm also annoyed dakka Mods deleted my previous facebook posts.
If Tony can't handle the heat, he needs to step up his game. I'm not the one falling behind on orders, and the release schedule, he is. I'm not the one keeping products out of the hands of retailers, he is.
chris_valera wrote: So the company deserves flak, but I'm a bad person for giving them some?
I also posted that I was thinking about ordering the 10-box deal, so yeah, they lost a customer. Although now that I checked, the 10-box deal seems to be "out of stock:" so I dunno...
I don't know you to say whether you're a "bad" person. You did something (troll their facebook page) that you knew would get your hand slapped, reveled in it, and even months later you're still screaming "See, my hand is still red!!". What did you think was going to happen when you repeatedly posted aggressive comments on their page with enough forethought to take screen pictures ahead of time because you knew it would piss them off? You're not a victim of any of their previous (or apparently ongoing) issues but you're trying to play the victim card and I'm simply point out the false pretense. You just have to accept that you're not able to post your comments on their page for OBVIOUS reasons and move on (and preferably simply not buy their products since the mere mention of them irks you so much).
Do it, don't do it, whatever. I like the fact that I'm supposedly a troll, when it's other people bringing my name up in this thread outta nowhere.
Alsom, this quote was true then, and it's true now; If Tony can't handle the heat, he needs to step up his game. I'm not the one falling behind on orders, and the release schedule, he is. I'm not the one keeping products out of the hands of retailers, he is.
I stand by that comment .Perhaps a comment like that is "trolling" in Thin-skin-landia where you hail from, but over here, it's reality.
Also I like that part where you left another quote out; "I'm sensitive for Tony's need to make back the capital he spent on the tooling, but having such thin skin is inexcusable, now that we live in an age of social media. "
I still stand by that comment too.
warboss wrote: I don't know you to say whether you're a "bad" person. You did something (troll their facebook page)
This is subjective, but I guess in Think-skin-landia, it's rampant trolling.
warboss wrote: that you knew would get your hand slapped, reveled in it, and even months later you're still screaming "See, my hand is still red!!". What did you think was going to happen when you repeatedly posted aggressive comments on their page with enough forethought to take screen pictures ahead of time because you knew it would piss them off?
Oh I don't know, maybe they'd sort out their problems, like everyone else has been telling them to. My comments are nothing compared to the threads on TMP.
warboss wrote: You're not a victim of any of their previous (or apparently ongoing) issues but you're trying to play the victim card and I'm simply point out the false pretense. You just have to accept that you're not able to post your comments on their page for OBVIOUS reasons
Ah, more mental telepathy about how I'm "playing a victim card." I love how you know what's in my heart of hearts. Did the radioactive spider bite give you those powers? Can you also cling to walls and catch thieves just like flies?
The obvious reason that Tony Reidy can't handle the flak on his own facebook page. GW shut down their facebook comments too, for the same reason. They can't handle the truth that people are bringing. Do you agree or disagree with GW shutting down their facebook comments? I'd love to know your opinion, now that we do indeed live in an age of social media.
warboss wrote: and move on (and preferably simply not buy their products since the mere mention of them irks you so much).
It doesn't irk me. I'd buy, but I'm not sure the quality is and was there, and since Tony Reidy banned a potential customer, I'm less inclined to order. Perhaps I'll order used, so they don't get my money. Perhaps I won't.
Is this the time that Chris Valera walks away from the interrogation, stretches his hand and leg, and we all realize he was Keyser Soze Tony Reidy all along?
I, too, am interested in acquiring some of Hudson's Bugs. Where do we sign up?
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
so hopefully this will get sorted out ok for Proxy
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
so hopefully this will get sorted out ok for Proxy
Let's hope so. It's been my experience that you have to hold folks' feet to the fire to get results, so maybe our public complaints will have some effect!
CptJake wrote: Why does he need to wait until next week to make a statement?
Before they can claim they got rid of their new manager too they need to make a new sockpuppet. That type of thing takes a few days.
You can't just make false claims about replacing sockpup... err "people" at the drop of the hat. People need a show if they want to believe Tony's not in charge.
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
so hopefully this will get sorted out ok for Proxy
Ken at Proxie Models is a stand-up guy. They need to pay for the work he did for them, or get out.
The few thousand it will cost them to square up with Proxie would more than make up for itself in goodwill... and the reverse would be true if they don't resolve it.
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
so hopefully this will get sorted out ok for Proxy
Ken at Proxie Models is a stand-up guy. They need to pay for the work he did for them, or get out.
The few thousand it will cost them to square up with Proxie would more than make up for itself in goodwill... and the reverse would be true if they don't resolve it.
The thing is, I don't even think they have the few grand it would take to square up. If they don't even have the 10-pack of Hudson's Bugs in stock, what makes you think they have a couple grand lying around?
We have also yet to get confirmation one way or the other, as to whether Tony Reidy is still in charge.
chris_valera wrote: The thing is, I don't even think they have the few grand it would take to square up. If they don't even have the 10-pack of Hudson's Bugs in stock, what makes you think they have a couple grand lying around?
That is not a reasonable line of logic. First, the Hudson's Bugs are made from restic which, as I keep on pointing out, is a completely inadequate material for mass production. Where proper plastic would make casting 300 Hudson's Bugs a trivial task, restic makes this a significant endeavour. Second, we know they have a couple of grand lying around - forty grand, to be precise.
That is not a reasonable line of logic. First, the Hudson's Bugs are made from restic which, as I keep on pointing out, is a completely inadequate material for mass production. Where proper plastic would make casting 300 Hudson's Bugs a trivial task, restic makes this a significant endeavour. Second, we know they have a couple of grand lying around - forty grand, to be precise.
I don't think they should be breaking into the Kickstarter piggy bank in order to pay off pre-kick debts. They're going to need that for fulfillment of the Kickstarter. I can't imagine they won't be using every penny to make sure it gets done.
The revenue from the Proxie stuff they've sold should be going straight to Proxie. Ideally, they should have bought it from Proxie in the first place, instead of consignment or whatever understanding they had. I doubt anyone knows what the Defiance/Proxie agreement was, but clearly Defiance isn't a company that can be held to a 'gentleman's agreement'.
I don't think they should be breaking into the Kickstarter piggy bank in order to pay off pre-kick debts. They're going to need that for fulfillment of the Kickstarter. I can't imagine they won't be using every penny to make sure it gets done.
The revenue from the Proxie stuff they've sold should be going straight to Proxie. Ideally, they should have bought it from Proxie in the first place, instead of consignment or whatever understanding they had. I doubt anyone knows what the Defiance/Proxie agreement was, but clearly Defiance isn't a company that can be held to a 'gentleman's agreement'.
I think the point is that they shouldn't have been launching a kickstarter to take on even further commitments when they already had previous ones long outstanding that they still haven't delivered on.
They've sold through the majority of the stock that they "bought" on credit and haven't paid. If they've sold the product then they already have the money to cover payment for the materials. (plus profit from the mark up) Now if they didn't sell a single copy it'd be an entirely differant case. What they are doing is getting product from the manufactuerer on credit then refusing to pay their bill when it's due, which is basically the same as stealing that product in order to re-sell it.
They should have the funds to pay simply from the sales of the products, regardless of what they just raised on KS. When you consider that they have two seperate sources of funding that could be used to pay their bill with Proxie why hasn't been paid? It's called greed and dishonesty Defiance wants to make money at the expense of others hard work.
I think the point is that they shouldn't have been launching a kickstarter to take on even further commitments when they already had previous ones long outstanding that they still haven't delivered on.
They've sold through the majority of the stock that they "bought" on credit and haven't paid. If they've sold the product then they already have the money to cover payment for the materials. (plus profit from the mark up) Now if they didn't sell a single copy it'd be an entirely differant case. What they are doing is getting product from the manufactuerer on credit then refusing to pay their bill when it's due, which is basically the same as stealing that product in order to re-sell it.
They should have the funds to pay simply from the sales of the products, regardless of what they just raised on KS. When you consider that they have two seperate sources of funding that could be used to pay their bill with Proxie why hasn't been paid? It's called greed and dishonesty Defiance wants to make money at the expense of others hard work.
I can't disagree with any of that, essentially.
I still think the KS funds are not an ethically viable option for paying back debt, that's not part of our agreement (implied or implicit) as backers. Has any KS ever stated 'We'll be using your pledges to help pay our debts, and maybe make something for you if we still have money?"
Although as I think upon it maybe Defiance should have said that up front...
I think the point is that they shouldn't have been launching a kickstarter to take on even further commitments when they already had previous ones long outstanding that they still haven't delivered on.
They've sold through the majority of the stock that they "bought" on credit and haven't paid. If they've sold the product then they already have the money to cover payment for the materials. (plus profit from the mark up) Now if they didn't sell a single copy it'd be an entirely differant case. What they are doing is getting product from the manufactuerer on credit then refusing to pay their bill when it's due, which is basically the same as stealing that product in order to re-sell it.
They should have the funds to pay simply from the sales of the products, regardless of what they just raised on KS. When you consider that they have two seperate sources of funding that could be used to pay their bill with Proxie why hasn't been paid? It's called greed and dishonesty Defiance wants to make money at the expense of others hard work.
I can't disagree with any that, essentially.
I still think the KS funds are not an ethically viable option for paying back debt, that's not part of our agreement (implied or implicit) as backers. Has any KS ever stated 'We'll be using your pledges to help pay our debts, and maybe make something for you if we still have money?"
Although as I think upon it maybe Defiance should have said that up front...
Not many KS projects delineate how funds are going to be allocated. For all we know, there are project creators that have some debt (maybe even related to that specific project) which they intend to use project funds to cover. Some may take funds nominally allocated towards profit and use it to lower carried debt. There is really nothing wrong with that as long as they built that into their funding goals and are able to deliver whatever folks have pledged for.
Having said that, I suspect Defiance did not build this particular debt into their project funding goals.
I think the point is that they shouldn't have been launching a kickstarter to take on even further commitments when they already had previous ones long outstanding that they still haven't delivered on.
They've sold through the majority of the stock that they "bought" on credit and haven't paid. If they've sold the product then they already have the money to cover payment for the materials. (plus profit from the mark up) Now if they didn't sell a single copy it'd be an entirely differant case. What they are doing is getting product from the manufactuerer on credit then refusing to pay their bill when it's due, which is basically the same as stealing that product in order to re-sell it.
They should have the funds to pay simply from the sales of the products, regardless of what they just raised on KS. When you consider that they have two seperate sources of funding that could be used to pay their bill with Proxie why hasn't been paid? It's called greed and dishonesty Defiance wants to make money at the expense of others hard work.
I can't disagree with any that, essentially.
I still think the KS funds are not an ethically viable option for paying back debt, that's not part of our agreement (implied or implicit) as backers. Has any KS ever stated 'We'll be using your pledges to help pay our debts, and maybe make something for you if we still have money?"
Although as I think upon it maybe Defiance should have said that up front...
No I think it on the backers (and anyone "investing" money) to look into any company there done business with. But, a company should pay any and all debts as some as they are able. If he wasn't a business moron (Wargame Factory proves this) he would of just added the debt to the goals in the KS and no one ever know.
Cpt. and Noir, thanks for the viewpoints. Interesting things to think about.
I think we'll be seeing some crazy things happen in the crowdfunding world in the next few months and years. These ventures are kind of like the Wild West, a lot of anarchy and unexplored territory. .
If they projected 5K to make the battle eggs a reality... then I'm guessing 46K would have a bit of leeway to pay off Ken. Even with the extra projects they promised, there were very few stretch goals on this KS and I thought it was smart of them...
Mathieu Raymond wrote: If they projected 5K to make the battle eggs a reality... then I'm guessing 46K would have a bit of leeway to pay off Ken. Even with the extra projects they promised, there were very few stretch goals on this KS and I thought it was smart of them...
...but now I know better.
I thought all along (and suggested it to them early in the KS) that they should just do the Battle Eggs and the arms. Few stretch goals. This is a company that needs to keep it simple and be done with it. The extra stuff like female marines etc. concerns me greatly, even the few extras they have make me anxious about completion. I hope they prove everyone wrong...
I hate to think they're using KS money for other stuff... heck they might have gone to Applebee's for margarita night the day they received funds into the account. 'Business lunch'.
Hello, there have been accusations regarding Defiance Games and it's business practices with outside contractors. I am not going to go into details here on Facebook as this is not the place for that sort of thing. I will be making a statement on this issue on our forums and in our next podcast.
People that know me, know me as a man of great integrity and honesty. Nobody is being deceived or kept from being paid as long as I'm running things. I will leave it at that. Look for my statement on this matter next week. Thank you
-Gary
so hopefully this will get sorted out ok for Proxy
I like how he states people know him AS a person of etcetcetc, as if he's some widely renown person in the gaming industry instead of an unknown that many suspect to be a sockpuppet. The only way people know him is cause of Defiance Games, which again doesn't have the best reputation right now because the new bosses supposedly won't pay the bills
Makes me wonder if he's been taking lessons from DM, slap on a new name, say the stores under new management then act like everyone knows him as some pillar of the community. He'll start calling dakka a hive mind out to get him next
I have been asked to make some corrections here so that everyone fully understands the situation. As has been stated, Proxie Models is currently owed money from DG for the barricades that he manufactures. This part of the situation is completely correct.
The issue regarding the money for shipping containers is a bit more involved. Proxie manufactures the containers for Rust Forge. DG placed an order for the shipping containers that we had proxie direct ship to DG due to the size. When the money never showed from DG, it meant that we could not afford to pay Proxie, either.
This has resulted in us not being able to produce new product until we can get Proxie paid up. Since we only have a small collection of product, it is taking a lot of time to make the money to pay proxie. We used every penny we could to start this company and have been effectively held hostage until this issue is resolved. Every dollar earned is being saved to pay Proxie. Once he is payed up we will start saving for new product again.
We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.
Just waiting for thread title change to Chinese manufacture takeover . I doubt with the problems they had with the torn armor kickstarter that we will see anything else from defiance.
What do they have that any other company would even want to take over? Anyone with the ability to cast in any material at all would be better off getting new CAD sculpts done than touch any of Defiance's steaming leavings.
If they sold off the moulds for the UAMC marines, and the rights to the UAMC hardsuits, and they'd get a quick HIPS mould, then I could see them taking off. Say... Wargames Factory might put them out of their misery?
Mathieu Raymond wrote: If they sold off the moulds for the UAMC marines, and the rights to the UAMC hardsuits, and they'd get a quick HIPS mould, then I could see them taking off. Say... Wargames Factory might put them out of their misery?
Too much bad blood between them for WGF to get the stuff. Maybe another company?
I really hope someone ends up with the molds to the UAMC. Those were pretty decent sci-fi troops, and in hard plastic! Mantic still hasn't managed to accomplish this.
Maybe the thread should be closed, as this company only produces frauds but no products.
Last time a Defiance thread wasn't closed soon enough, many people lost their money in a kickstarter/indiegogo campaign.
I don't think the failure was a matter so much of needing to lock the thread, the failure lies with headstrong gamers with twinkling shinnies in their eyes.
Some of us were along the side of the road screaming "the bridge is out, don't go that way!" and we watched as gamer after gamer not only continued to stream past but actually stepped on the gas to get there even faster. Because they wanted to see that brand new shiny so bad they just plugged their ears even harder and raced up that hill like lemmings following the pack regardless of where it led and what warning signs were along the way.
I'd feel bad for the people that lost money with Defiance except a lot of people at the time were like "yeah I know Tony may be a complete turd, but I don't care cause I want this shiny, and I'm only gambling an amount I can afford to lose". So the blame is really on them. It doesn't excuse Tony for ripping people off, but it takes two to tango in that KS relationship, Tony can only take what people willingly give him. I don't really have too much sympathy for people who continued to back Defiance even after being warned.
I see the way things wound up so poorly for Defiance. I feel good and bad as I got the 118 UAMC MArines I ordered in a timely manner, what happened after that was total chaos as I saw them going away to new materials and I was silently screaming NOOOOOO! the plastiuc is working, do not jump mid stream! stick with working materials.
Others thought the way I think Tiny was, "Oooh this new material will be superior to the plastics!" w/o double checking or experimenting with the needed changes for the materials so w/o a R&D department to allow checking new materials, delays caused by switches to troll-forged restic, and other materials w/o seeing the potential and in this case dire consequences.
Though the UAMC MArines are not the top of detail quality, the price per man was worth it. They had a winner, and should have made more money getting out the UAMC faction, followed by bugs, then the other planned factions paid for by the money from the leading product. I was taking the wait and see approach for Defiance to score a win like the UAMC Marines.........Caution saved my wallet.
Maybe Tony just removed his operation to a town in an undisclosed location where federal laws don't apply and there's no interference from the government... except by the local one, of course.
They could have bought a cheap car instead of running.
But yeah, last login into KS was in February, I think this one is dead in the water. You'd have to be pretty naive to think Tony Reidy would do business with the Chinese again.
But yeah, last login into KS was in February, I think this one is dead in the water. You'd have to be pretty naive to think Tony Reidy would do business with the Chinese again.
I don't think it is a stretch that he would approach the Chinese.
Tony played up the 'American made' thing as much as possible in the early days of WGF, even while having a sprue reclamation program where customers could mail in their empty sprues and Tony would ship them back to China I'm LOLing about that now, there's no way he did that.
Then when he stiffed Wai Kee and was forced out of WGF, he did everything he could to make the transition almost impossible including withholding product design files, financial records, and customer data. He appeared to be anti-Chinese at that point and certainly stoked the fires when people came out in his defense. He may have even been anti-Chinese.
Tony then founds Defiance and plays up the made in America thing even more, gets involved with American companies who for some reason partner up with him. They defend him and their choices when people call them out on partnering with Tony. Then Tony proceeds to shaft every single person in the USA that could have possibly helped him make the product.
He had no choice but to approach a Chinese company to make stuff.... there's no way Renedra would touch him, even if he could afford 3-ups.
I still think he tried to find a way to make the hardsuits, and I think he could have with 46K. But there was no way he was ever going to get the mechs and supplementary models made. We have never seen prints of the heavy weapons or anything else beyond the basic suit.
At this point he should be offering up refunds or old kits to backers as compensation, but I doubt he has any stock of anything.
I'd love to know if Defiance cast their own stuff at all, or if they were just unloading Trollcast until they ran out.
I'd also like to know what company cut the mold and cast the styrene Marines. Thats a big investment to not be using and they weren't available for long. I suspect Tony stiffed that company and they won't turn over the mold or cast anything else.
I'd suspect that Defiance used a US equivalent of http://www.protolabs.co.uk who will turn your CAD designs into sprues and cast them for you using (iirc) aluminium tools rather than steel tools. Much cheaper than steel but with a more limited lifespan - ideal for a company expecting smaller volume like Defiance. Protomould in the UK retain posession of the tools and you have to cast through them, so not paying your bils would cause all sorts of problems I imagine.
richred_uk wrote: I'd suspect that Defiance used a US equivalent of http://www.protolabs.co.uk who will turn your CAD designs into sprues and cast them for you using (iirc) aluminium tools rather than steel tools. Much cheaper than steel but with a more limited lifespan - ideal for a company expecting smaller volume like Defiance. Protomould in the UK retain posession of the tools and you have to cast through them, so not paying your bils would cause all sorts of problems I imagine.
Interesting, that's a definite possibility. I wonder who the USA equivalents are.
They've got a US headquarters (UK must be a subsidiary). No idea if they did work with them, but the finances would make sense, as would the seeming inability to produce new stock. There might well be similar companies around, but proto are the ones we work with at my company so the one that sprung to mind.
hmm.. Never heard of Protolabs but the site says they have a HQ in the USA.. so they could make stuff here? I intend to contact them about my fiendish plans for world domination...
Hah, there's like 5 boxes of the Marines at my old FLGS in Lexington. The idea that those guys are in high demand is pretty funny. I almost threw mine away when I was moving up here.
I'm sure there are a few folks who would like more, but it's a bit of a stretch at this point to think that the UAMC marines are in "high demand."
Still, I do hope they do become available again, whether through Defiance or some other company. Unlike the rest of the Defiance lineup, they were a good (not great, but good) quality product at a good price that filled a very useful gaming niche.
Dr Mathias wrote: I stand corrected. Seems like I read about people wanting the marines, and never see them offered up on forum marketplaces.
I guess they overproduced and didn't move them then.
I got about 100 or so of them all waiting for me to paint, and entire company of soldiers from Defiance.
That whole fracas about WGF greatcoats, I got about 118 of those as well. My IG are pretty well equipped with WGF/Defiance/Dreamforge/and GW plus other sources for infantry and vehicles. But having been able to get what I ordered, during these times make me wonder what was really going on?
Necros wrote: I still have a box of bugs collecting dust it anyone wants em
I sometimes wonder if those Hudson bugs were just a figment of my imagination. I pre ordered a box from Wayland as soon as they were listed and every month the due date was pushed back and back again until finally, they vanished from the store completely. Poof!
I guess it's good to know that they did, at one point, exist!
winnertakesall wrote: No updates for 8 months, literally no news what so ever to prove life, the store hasn't been working for just as long (if not longer if I recall).
Is it safe to assume tha they're very still, and very dead?
Doesn't look good for those who had a Kickstarter with them.
I think we can nail shut the coffin lid on Defiance Games at this point. Shame they promised so much and went belly up like that.
shasolenzabi wrote: I think we can nail shut the coffin lid on Defiance Games at this point. Shame they promised so much and went belly up like that.
Better pour some concrete on it too. We don't want it rising from the dead again.
Definace Games Reputation amongst the miniature gaming community due to their lack of delivery on promises, false promises of items, over reaching for their claimed ideas as well as their propensity to switch materials they had molds for plastic to try resins/restic/trollforged and resin again when they should have stayed with mass production of the UAMC kits to build capital on shot to at least zero if not sub zero
As much as e-mails from tony indicated he was enthusiastic and positive about the future, his constant changes in policy for his company, and that it effected folks place his rep in the field at absolute 0 aka -450 below. sorry, but there it is.
Lack of updates, no words, and so many never touched projects and still born projects is death for any company, and that they grabbed onto others to try and help bail out from the mistakes made it look even worse.
Concrete over the coffin, and a steel slab over that as well.
I doubt if Tony Reidy will ever be involved in a miniatures venture again. Aside from (possibly) John Morse the rest of the people he started Wargames Factory and, later, Defiance Games with have cut ties with him and he burned too many bridges amongst the American miniatures community. Those of us who could qualify as fanboys don't want anything to do with him.
He meant well, as far as I could tell, but in the end wound up robbing Peter to pay Paul, always in the hope that this time he'll strike it big and then he can pay everybody back. Less a businessman and more a gambling addict, really.
A lot of folks thought Tony had disappeared for good prior to the KS project too, with Defiance seemingly under new folks.
He'll be back. I have no doubt about it. And under what ever new guise he appears, he'll initially gather (what you termed) fan boys. They'll even stick with him when it is revealed he is involved in the new venture because This Time It Will Be Different, and It Wasn't Really His Fault, but the end results will look very similar.
Laemos wrote: But won't there be enough people here to warn them and link to this thread?
I still feel bad that I didn't go out and bang the drum about not trusting Tony Reidy before they launched their Kickstarter, but I felt (in my case, being informally associated with them) that it'd be in poor taste.
This time around . . . not so much. If Tony pops up his head I'll be one of the hater
I think the only reason he had his 'fanboys' this time (from this thread, me and Xeno), was because I legitimately believed he had been betrayed by the big bad Chinese.
I'm pretty sure if there was another venture into the miniatures world, you'd have to, for lack of a better term, pants on head slowed to trust it.
Is there a list of we have of people that appear to have been screwed over?
I have been looking, but I can find literally zero proof of anything happening with Defiance Games for the last 6+ months.
Well, if people fell for it this time, knowing he was involved, if he hides his involvement at the beginning folks will be roped in. And no matter what warnings are given, folks will just know this time will be different, or not be familiar with the history.
It makes me wonder if my luck with getting my order of plastic UAMC marines fulfilled in a timely manner was purely luck, or Tony hoping me saying anything would help waylay the naysayers? Both times were my order fro Greatcoats during the mess between the factions of WGF and Alien Suns.
Then with the UAMC Marines and Defiance Games unraveling.
If it was a gamble to waylay community suspicion, it did not work as so many were already convinced of bad practices.
I got suspicious when the PzG's went from plastics to restics, along with the bugs.
UAMC boxes in plastic could have done well enough for say 6months to a year to fund the other factions. too many horse changes midstream was making me see frustrations rise.
In a nutshell, whether Tony was deliberately a sheister or just a well meaning guy with poor impulse control, he has shot himself in the foot.
Well turns out I don't need my box of UAMC dudes and Hudson's Bugs if anyone wants 'em. Hudson's Bugs never used, UAMC a couple guys assembled. $50 takes both boxes (hey that's less than retail!) and I'll actually ship them
Even with the current batch of backers losing their money I still don't think people will learn. Too many gamers are blinded by shiny images and false promises both of which Tony excels at.
I had been advising caution during the KS based on his past history, but nobody cared and it was lemmings over the cliff.
At the time of the kickstarter I had a fanboy email me to tell me how wrong I was about Tony and that he was legit, he said that I was being unprofessional and simply trying to trash talk an honest company. He's likely one of the many people who were duped by some 3d renders and a quick song.
My concern was for protecting the potential backers and the community, everyone suffers when a tool like Tony pulls this stuff as it erodes trust and makes it that much harder for legit companies trying to use kickstarter for real projects.
winnertakesall wrote: I think the only reason he had his 'fanboys' this time (from this thread, me and Xeno), was because I legitimately believed he had been betrayed by the big bad Chinese.
At the time I thought either was possible, until Defiance Games returned to form. But come to think of it, Wargames Factory's current Kickstarters aren't exactly doing much to kill the idea that they were responsible for delays that helped send Tony's Wargames Factory under - we're coming up on two years and the Dreamforge Games kickstarter still hasn't sent out their third wave.
I still like the idea of the Alien Wars setting (even if it does need some fixing), and if they'd done justice to the HIPS female marines they had been promising I would have bought a ton, but Tony & Co have thoroughly proven that they are incapable of doing it right, even if they were not the only weak link.
Not to beat the dead horse or blame-the-victims of Tony's grandiose-plans and shysterism, but there were plenty of warnings for this one. I could be wrong about the timeline, but IIRC, when the battle-eggs etc kickstarter was launched:
-The truth about the WGF fiasco had been widely available for some time
-We all knew he had already screwed the pooch with Proxie models and rustforge for the containers and barriers.
-The Chinese troops had already been shown to be miscast garbage.
-The Trollforge relationship was either in the toilet or showing strains.
I and others raised the flag, but battle eggs are hard to resist...
And when a new company emerges having obtained the rights to the Defiance Battle Eggs (or an eerily similar set of figures), and needs a KS to fund their production, a bunch of Ooohhh I Need Those! will get the project funded. About half way through the KS somehow it will leak Tony is in some way involved in the project (but just on the periphery ) and it will make no difference to the funding level.
Then as Tony's role becomes more clear after the project ends, and promises start to be broken, folks will swear Never Again!
winnertakesall wrote: I think the only reason he had his 'fanboys' this time (from this thread, me and Xeno), was because I legitimately believed he had been betrayed by the big bad Chinese.
At the time I thought either was possible, until Defiance Games returned to form. But come to think of it, Wargames Factory's current Kickstarters aren't exactly doing much to kill the idea that they were responsible for delays that helped send Tony's Wargames Factory under - we're coming up on two years and the Dreamforge Games kickstarter still hasn't sent out their third wave.
I still like the idea of the Alien Wars setting (even if it does need some fixing), and if they'd done justice to the HIPS female marines they had been promising I would have bought a ton, but Tony & Co have thoroughly proven that they are incapable of doing it right, even if they were not the only weak link.
I would blame everyone but Wargames Factory when it comes to those Kickstarters. The Kickstarters using WGF as a production partner may all be running late, but in the meantime, WGF has released tons of new kits including their new American War of Independence kits which are probably some of the best 28mm figures on the market. My buddy runs AWI and picked up a couple sets at Historicon and they are _beautiful_.
