Huh, found this on TT fix. Looks like we're gonna have some more sci fi plastics in the future. I think these were the same guys who popped in here a few months ago with some type of poll (or was it a different forum? Cant remember.)

Also they named their range Alien Suns....

Although ehh....models look okish. Not much to tell, only one thing. And MORE GAS MASK GERMANS IN THE FAR FUTURE

http://www.defiancegames.com/

Sci-Fi Germans with Gas Masks? How Novel!

No but seriously, the concept art looks gorgeous, and wish the company nothing but well wishes going into the future.

Interesting look, diggin everything expect for the back of the helmet. A simple head swap and it would look pretty awesome.

Love the artwork, let's hope that the translation to miniature is of the same fidelity as Soda Pop's artwork to mini.

Aren't these the guys that split off from Wargames Factory after the new management?

Absolutionis wrote:Aren't these the guys that split off from Wargames Factory after the new management?

Well that was my assumption with the coincidental naming and with the inclusion of the gask mask guys, although I dont really want to set off any drama bombs. Then again, seeing this is dakka I'm not too sure theres many people who'll leap into defense mode with that company

Fantastic concept art; need to see some better pics of the models though.

Note that in the Battletech universe, Defiance Industries is one of the largest Battlemech manufacturers. Almost certainly related.

kenshin620 wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:Aren't these the guys that split off from Wargames Factory after the new management?

Well that was my assumption with the coincidental naming and with the inclusion of the gask mask guys, although I dont really want to set off any drama bombs. Then again, seeing this is dakka I'm not too sure theres many people who'll leap into defense mode with that company

I'll laugh if it is, because these look infinitely better than WGF's offerings.

Seriously, the WGF Greatcoat guys look like walking poop.

One person's treasure is another person's poop.

Interesting, dislike the marine's helmets though, or at least from this angle. The only Germanic thing about the grenadier seems to be the helmet, so they don't have to be yet another gasmask/German trooper.

I like how they are near future or "realistic" style, like Aliens or the Halo drop troops.

(What did happen anyway? Office politics?)

Yeah. I like how the German trooper isn't sinister looking bad guy.
It's a Space German, not Space Nazi.

adhuin wrote:Yeah. I like how the German trooper isn't sinister looking bad guy.
It's a Space German, not Space Nazi.

that's true, I like it more than others in fact. Marines instead... mmm they are strange

If the Panzer Grenadiers look anything like the concept art, I'll be there with bells on. Maybe even tassels.

Well, ok, if they look pretty close to that then.

These look promising.

Looking forward to 'the bugs' the most.

Oh gak, Colonial Marines.

Good luck to them. I hope the grenadiers turn out good.

I clicked the link & it said - 'please update to a modern browser'.
I'm on my work machine & it's running explorer 8.0.6001.other numbers.
??

They are the guys who left Wargames Factory. That marine figure looks Incredible! I can't wait to get some! I have a feeling I won't be buying anymore Imperial guard figures. Does anyone know when they'll be available? I wonder how much they'll be? There's no release date info on the Defiance Game site.

Tiak wrote: Does anyone know when they'll be available? I wonder how much they'll be? There's no release date info on the Defiance Game site.

My guess is, they'll be out when they're out. Most medium/small mini companies arent very concrete about their release dates.

Plastic colonial marines? Ooooh. I'll use my great precog powers to foretel that I will be buying some of these...if there are alternate heads; I dont like those helmets. Open backed helmet? No thanks.

They're better than I would have expected from the WGF guys, but the sculpt is significantly less awesome than the concept art.

kenshin620 wrote:

Tiak wrote: Does anyone know when they'll be available? I wonder how much they'll be? There's no release date info on the Defiance Game site.

My guess is, they'll be out when they're out. Most medium/small mini companies arent very concrete about their release dates.

And when the guys at Defiance were running W.F., they tried that and it didn't work. Probably for more than one reason, but no matter, experience brings wisdom, and not providing long term release dates is probably wise.

Looks like a great start, can't wait to see more.

Their site is down for me also, I doubt it's your browser.. they're probably still designing it

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:Note that in the Battletech universe, Defiance Industries is one of the largest Battlemech manufacturers. Almost certainly related.

I think the reason is more that as the new WF stabbed them in the back and scape goated them, the name is meant as a sort of insult.

I am liking the look of the heavy armoured Space Germans, looking way better than the Shock Troops.

Liking this. The grenadier art looks very nice. I actually have hope for this company. The one figure that they show seems (technically) well done, I just don't like the design. Hopefully these sculptors can do good things with a better design.

Bugs who look like bugs? o.O

Im looking forward for this...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The marine have a lot of "starship troopers" in it ^^

Edit: removing info because Tony wants to keep this one closer to his chest. Sorry guys.

Personally I am not interested in more plastic Starship Troopers.
And the prototype doesn't look as good as the (quite genertic) concept sketch.

The marines need Pig Iron heads imho. The current helmet design is a bit too derpy.

The helmet design looks good, it just needs to be extended a bit.

As it stands, it looks like the helmet is part of the Marine's head.

Look nice to me!

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Bugs who look like bugs? o.O

Im looking forward for this...

I wouldn't get too excited just yet...

To confirm - yes, it's the guys who were scapegoated out of WF, and yes, the name Defiance seems to be a nod to that entire ugly situation, though they've never specifically said so that I'm aware of.

Good news is that they've learned from their WF days. Tony and crew are being VERY tight lipped about release dates, even from their inner circle of fans. We're anxious too, but they aren't talking. Which is a good thing. My guess is that you won't see any release date info from them until they have something ready to ship.

As an FYI, if you can't get to the website over the next few days, it's because they're working on it as they get ready for the next steps. We've been beating Tony up about that

@insaniak - that bug WIP you show was from BEFORE the new concept art they're now showing on the home page. In fact, IIRC, it's actually from even before the marines, which are probably going to be the first product. They took the feedback that several of us gave them, and chose to start from scratch again. After showing us the new concept art for the bugs, I'm pretty sure they know they'll have an angry lynch mob on their hands if they go back to the WIP sculpts. Once their website gets back up, I'll make sure they know...

I think the Heer should be the first product. The marine mock up on the first page doesn't look like it would sell amazingly well imo. It looks good, but the styled armor and gasmask on the Heer trooper caught my attention more

Concept art for the Marines looks rock solid. The Marine models could use a better touch (especially the helmets) but I'm anxious to see what else is in the works for this.

Great find!

kristof65 wrote: They took the feedback that several of us gave them, and chose to start from scratch again.

Which shows an intention to do better... whether or not it will make the end product any better remains to be seen. The very fact that they thought this was good enough to show people as a design direction makes me wonder.

I am very, very curious about this. Will be watching closely!

Would love to see pics / read info if you find any more, kristof65, since you apparently are in the know more than the rest of us on this!

I should say that for me, a combination of greatcoats quality + price is good enough, and this guys seens to be better, i hope the price dont raise with the quality...

About the bug pic: nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

The Dwarf Wolf wrote: i hope the price dont raise with the quality...

Whats wrong with that? Better products should be priced higher no? Not GW of course but not dirt cheap either like wgf or hat

I like it, but the head looks like a toothless grandma Alien.

Maybe I'm just the minority in thinking this, but the Colonial Marine miniature doesn't look particularly impressive. Perhaps it's the helmet (which can be changed) or it's the detail-obscuring camo scheme. Either way, it's promising, but not to my tastes.

The bug looks quite disappointing. The front two legs being exceptionally longer/larger than the bottom four legs makes it look really awkward.

I'm really excited about guys. My only real complaint about it is that the model screams speed and the helmet doesn't seem to agree. A patrol cap, beret, maybe even a bare head would probably be more well suited to the "feel" of the model. But I do appreciate the fact that the helmets aren't just steel pots in space. A sort of Roman feel with the cheek protectors is a nice change of pace, but may work better with heavy weapon squads or something of the sort. Either way, a simple head swap could fix that. I've been holding off starting my IG army waiting for these guys for about two months now. I'm glad to see a product worth the wait.

noneoftheabove0 wrote:I'm really excited about guys.

Well so am I but you don't see me posting about it on a public forum.

...OH FU-

Also, starting over from scratch with the alien was probably wise, lol.

insaniak wrote:

kristof65 wrote: They took the feedback that several of us gave them, and chose to start from scratch again.

Which shows an intention to do better... whether or not it will make the end product any better remains to be seen. The very fact that they thought this was good enough to show people as a design direction makes me wonder.

Maybe because after the WGF greatcoat design debacle, they realized that design by the intraweb community is pointless. Maybe they have a design direction for the bugs based on their game universe that isn't terribly derivative of GW in its design aesthetic.

We know nothing about the bugs, how they move, fight, etc. Maybe that sculpt was exactly what they had in mind for the look they wanted. Some people may have liked it, others may not, just like every miniature produced.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do when they're not trying to please everyone all the time, which is impossible, particularly in the sci-fi wargaming community.

I do agree on the Heer troops, I'd like to see those first, particularly if they look like the artwork.

Oh, and get the website fixed...

Can someone post the Marine pics from the website here?

The websites wont work for me.

I really hope their miniatures are better than their website, because this is what I get when attempting to go look:

Fatal error: PCRE is not compiled with UTF-8 support in /home/dfg54/defiancegames.com/libraries/phputf8/utf8.php on line 49

solkan wrote:I really hope their miniatures are better than their website, because this is what I get when attempting to go look:

Fatal error: PCRE is not compiled with UTF-8 support in /home/dfg54/defiancegames.com/libraries/phputf8/utf8.php on line 49

QFT. It makes complete sense that these are the same people that helped ruin WGF. The hurp durp continues. Sad though because I really like the sample marines.

Cruentus wrote:

insaniak wrote:

kristof65 wrote: They took the feedback that several of us gave them, and chose to start from scratch again.

Which shows an intention to do better... whether or not it will make the end product any better remains to be seen. The very fact that they thought this was good enough to show people as a design direction makes me wonder.

Maybe because after the WGF greatcoat design debacle, they realized that design by the intraweb community is pointless. Maybe they have a design direction for the bugs based on their game universe that isn't terribly derivative of GW in its design aesthetic.

We know nothing about the bugs, how they move, fight, etc. Maybe that sculpt was exactly what they had in mind for the look they wanted. Some people may have liked it, others may not, just like every miniature produced.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do when they're not trying to please everyone all the time, which is impossible, particularly in the sci-fi wargaming community.

I do agree on the Heer troops, I'd like to see those first, particularly if they look like the artwork.

Oh, and get the website fixed...

In all fairness, it was said that the picture posted by insaniak was a WIP that was thrown out. But the fact remains that no matter what the story behind those bugs are, or how well that sculpt matched the look that they wanted, it is just hands down ugly. It looks like some horrible cross between a lizard and an insect. The first thing that I thought of when I saw it was picturing it made of cheap colored plastic, like green army men sold to children in a toy store. It just doesn't capture my attention at all.

I do, however, love the concept art for the futuristic German space trooper. If the web site ever gets up and running, I'll have to check it out.

I really do hope the minis live up the concept art (seconding call for pic of the marine that you guys are all talking about, can't get on the site) because WGF produced some damn ugly minis....

As an aside, the Germans are not WW2 Germans. This is set in the future, and is very much an extrapolation of the modern day. Think Aliens and the Colonial Marines, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:I really do hope the minis live up the concept art (seconding call for pic of the marine that you guys are all talking about, can't get on the site) because WGF produced some damn ugly minis....

As an aside, the Germans are not WW2 Germans. This is set in the future, and is very much an extrapolation of the modern day. Think Aliens and the Colonial Marines, etc.

Then why is it named as part of the "Heer", German for "army" IIRC

lord marcus wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:I really do hope the minis live up the concept art (seconding call for pic of the marine that you guys are all talking about, can't get on the site) because WGF produced some damn ugly minis....

As an aside, the Germans are not WW2 Germans. This is set in the future, and is very much an extrapolation of the modern day. Think Aliens and the Colonial Marines, etc.

Then why is it named as part of the "Heer", German for "army" IIRC

Because the Heer is a part of the Bundeswehr? You'll note that thats the Bundeswehr logo and not the Wehrmacht logo...

You'll also note the modern day German flag on the concept arts shoulder... thats a flag that did not exist until after the second world war...

The marine seems to be in 25mm, Perry miniatures type scale. I'm not sure the concept translates to that style/scale as well as it would to 30-32mm.

At the very least it seems to have been sculpted by an actual sculptor and not just some guy that was given access to a digital sculpting program. The concept art is miles beyond WGFs box cover art so that's a good indicator that they realise they need to hire people who know what they're doing.

Can someone explain the dislike regarding the bug? To me it is totally alien in design which is a damn good thing in my opinion! Surely people were not expecting 'counts as tyranids'? Please say you weren't...
It has a lot of good detail, like nothing we've seen before(which is good) and yet people hate it. I'm sure this model will paint up really well and then it will come 'alive', I can already imagine how amazing a whole tribe on the battlefield will look. I like it. So there.

agreed w/ the above. Looks fine to me (aside from the hideous head).

Slipstream wrote:Can someone explain the dislike regarding the bug? To me it is totally alien in design which is a damn good thing in my opinion! Surely people were not expecting 'counts as tyranids'? Please say you weren't...
It has a lot of good detail, like nothing we've seen before(which is good) and yet people hate it. I'm sure this model will paint up really well and then it will come 'alive', I can already imagine how amazing a whole tribe on the battlefield will look. I like it. So there.

It doesn't look "designed" to me. It's just a cockroach/crab with a random head. The detail on the legs is fine but then the detail on the head is blobby and poorly defined.
That's why I dislike it anyway.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Look nice to me!

I'm quoting this, as it's how I feel about the bug.

It's visually identifiable as an alien, and what's more: it looks fairly unique.

The concept art of the PzGreni looks real good, i hope the actual miniature will live up to it.

You'll also note the modern day German flag on the concept arts shoulder... thats a flag that did not exist until after the second world war...

This isnt right, der black/red/gold flag of modern germany exists since the failed revolution of 1848/49. It was always there, but never used before 1949 and the founding of the BRD.

But its right that this is not a ww2 german soldier, the modern flag on the arm, the use of "flecktarn" camo, the Bundeswehr logo, he has to be part of todays (a futuristic version in this case) german army.
Also, the use of "Heer" doesnt always mean it has anything to do with the Wehrmacht, like chaos0xomega already said. It is just the name for the part of the german army which doesnt fly or swim.

But surely an alien creature needs to be alien in design? I think that the problem is that on this planet we have all got used to how animals look.If we could visit another planet and find a lifeform I guarentee you that it will not make sense to us and we'd even feel uneasy about it. We may even recognise similar features related to mammals/insects but that's as far as we could go. And as they were not totally familiar to us, we'd find them ugly! I will still say that this model will look a good deal better if it was painted up. Still like it though.
Sorry for the Darwin ideas. Away to have a lie down!

Weltenwolf wrote:The concept art of the PzGreni looks real good, i hope the actual miniature will live up to it.

You'll also note the modern day German flag on the concept arts shoulder... thats a flag that did not exist until after the second world war...

This isnt right, der black/red/gold flag of modern germany exists since the failed revolution of 1848/49. It was always there, but never used before 1949 and the founding of the BRD.

But its right that this is not a ww2 german soldier, the modern flag on the arm, the use of "flecktarn" camo, the Bundeswehr logo, he has to be part of todays (a futuristic version in this case) german army.
Also, the use of "Heer" doesnt always mean it has anything to do with the Wehrmacht, like chaos0xomega already said. It is just the name for the part of the german army which doesnt fly or swim.

I always thought the old black/red/gold flag had a little eagle symbol in the upper left corner (and therefore wasn't exactly the same)? In any case, the colors of Nazi Germany were red black white, not red black gold so the point still stands.

The website crashed due to traffic, and is and Tony is currently talking to the host who isn't being that speedy in bringing it back up again, or at making it unable to handle that many people. The bug render was from way way way back, in about spring sometime, but they were done completely again from scratch, due to the head and arms.

That's a shame. I liked the bug!

If the concept art is within a million miles of what the actual mini will turn out to be like, I think I will be ordering them in bulk.

The figs look great. We all know that we need more reasonably priced sci-fi minis.

This being said, I am a bit sceptical about the company. Having a malfunctioning website is worse than not having one at all. It shows a level of non-professionalism. It also shows an inability to fix a simple problem. Just post a simple index page stating that the site will be up soon.

Slipstream wrote:But surely an alien creature needs to be alien in design? I think that the problem is that on this planet we have all got used to how animals look.If we could visit another planet and find a lifeform I guarentee you that it will not make sense to us and we'd even feel uneasy about it. We may even recognise similar features related to mammals/insects but that's as far as we could go. And as they were not totally familiar to us, we'd find them ugly! I will still say that this model will look a good deal better if it was painted up. Still like it though.
Sorry for the Darwin ideas. Away to have a lie down!

My complaint about the bug isn't based on the fact that it doesn't resemble a tyranid, or any other recognizable alien, but because I simply don't find it aesthetically pleasing. I think that the head looks like it doesn't belong to the body, and the body just doesn't inspire me. I know that art is relative to the viewer, so I can understand that others might really like the sculpt.

augustus5 wrote:My complaint about the bug isn't based on the fact that it doesn't resemble a tyranid, or any other recognizable alien, but because I simply don't find it aesthetically pleasing. I think that the head looks like it doesn't belong to the body, and the body just doesn't inspire me. I know that art is relative to the viewer, so I can understand that others might really like the sculpt.

Pretty much this. Sure, alien critters should look alien... but they should also still look like a functional creature. The bug concept 'sculpt' is a bunch of disconnected parts thrown together onto an awkward body. It's just an ugly design, and not in a 'oh, that's ugly, I must have it' sort of way.

YMMV, obviously.

Don't judge the old sculpt, wait for the new one. The website went down due to traffic, and the company that hosts it are crap, so the host is being changed along with a lot of the webite. It's just some maintenance.

winnertakesall wrote:If the concept art is within a million miles of what the actual mini will turn out to be like, I think I will be ordering them in bulk.

Where's this concept art? Just the one pic in the OP??

RiTides wrote:

winnertakesall wrote:If the concept art is within a million miles of what the actual mini will turn out to be like, I think I will be ordering them in bulk.

Where's this concept art? Just the one pic in the OP??

Alas, atm, just the one pic, I haven't seen anything else. I am most looking forward to the Panzergrenadiers the most though.

EDIT:typos

Got it... looking forward to seeing more!

All I can see is the concept art in this thread, but if they make affordable figs that do the art justice, I might buy some, and I don't even play 28mm sci-fi these days.

winnertakesall wrote:Don't judge the old sculpt, wait for the new one. The website went down due to traffic, and the company that hosts it are crap, so the host is being changed along with a lot of the webite. It's just some maintenance.

All that we have to judge right now is the concept art. If the company didn't want their concept art judged they should not have put it out on the interwebz. But I do recognize that another poster said that the alien concept had been reworked, but for the time being all I can say is that I love the trooper concept art, and do not really like either of the alien concept pictures so far, especially the horrible lizard-bug thing. I have high hopes for the trooper sculpt though, and will be anxiously awaiting the company to get their web site in order.

Will be interesting to see how these shape up against the humans and bugs that mantic plan on releasing.

Competition is a good thing, it only raises the quality/ lowers the price.

Right now, we need more of the former, the latter isn't as much of a priority as long as it stays well below GW levels (not hard to do).

website currently borked. returns a SQL error.

Yeah, the site has returned various errors over the past weekend. It now has a generic website template in place. I suspect that they may have part of the site up in the next few days. In my opinion I would rather just see an index page with some pictures of the models stating that the site would be up soon.

winnertakesall wrote:If the concept art is within a million miles of what the actual mini will turn out to be like, I think I will be ordering them in bulk.

My name is 18th Kransograd and I approve this message. These guys look great, I wasn't relishing the prospect of the Greatcoats, and Cadians aren't anywhere near affordable in the bulk I need. Hope the site comes up soon (or at least you snag some external hosting).

Way to go guys!

adhuin wrote:Yeah. I like how the German trooper isn't sinister looking bad guy.
It's a Space German, not Space Nazi.

My thoughts exactly. This is Bundeswehr evolved, not crazy jetpack Wehrmacht.

insaniak wrote:a bunch of disconnected parts thrown together onto an awkward body.

You mean like a platypus? Seriously, you're echoing some of the variious discussions we had on the beta test list months ago about this. Before they got some true concept artists working for them, even before the work began on the Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

spaceelf wrote:This being said, I am a bit sceptical about the company. Having a malfunctioning website is worse than not having one at all. It shows a level of non-professionalism. It also shows an inability to fix a simple problem. Just post a simple index page stating that the site will be up soon.

You should take into account that a) the company is not selling any product yet, nor actively promoting themselves and b) the post here that apparently drove the traffic to the website that broke it was not posted by Defiance or any of their current beta testers and c) the website was in development at the time the traffic surge started.

Better to have these problems happen now than after sales and promotion starts.

Bumping to say the site is back up. Let's slashdot it again by all clicking on it, lemming like, at the same time!

Am I the only person bored with all this "Vapour-ware" that seems to be flooding the forums right now, Mantic, Privateer Press and it's Sci Fi game, and countless "Out soon" notices from up-coming miniatures companies?!?!

I understand the need to "drum up interest" and how (supposedly) miniatures and gaming companies find it hard to meet product release dates (?) but I find this whole idea dangling of internet carrots just so plain boring! Half of these ventures never reach the light of day, and it's just a bunch of excitement over nothing.

If these miniatures ever do show up, and they are as good as they can be, then more power to the producers.....

18th Krasnograd wrote:Bumping to say the site is back up. Let's slashdot it again by all clicking on it, lemming like, at the same time!

Looks like the lemmings won, as when I checked the site I got a down for maintenance message.

Delephont wrote:Am I the only person bored with all this "Vapour-ware" that seems to be flooding the forums right now, Mantic, Privateer Press and it's Sci Fi game, and countless "Out soon" notices from up-coming miniatures companies?!?!

I understand the need to "drum up interest" and how (supposedly) miniatures and gaming companies find it hard to meet product release dates (?) but I find this whole idea dangling of internet carrots just so plain boring! Half of these ventures never reach the light of day, and it's just a bunch of excitement over nothing.

If these miniatures ever do show up, and they are as good as they can be, then more power to the producers.....

Then maybe Dakka should have the balls to close threads that have no actual working links/new pictures/verifiable facts in them concening releases?

lack of actual info/pics/working links sure look a lot like spam to me...

CT GAMER wrote:
lack of actual info/pics/wprkign lonks sure looks a lot like spam to me...

I have become the very thing I hate?

Look I'm just posting interesting things I've seen on sites like TT Fix. I didnt realize that the site I posted would blow up

http://ttfix.blogspot.com/2011/09/defiance-games-alien-suns-us-marine.html

Delephont wrote:Am I the only person bored with all this "Vapour-ware" that seems to be flooding the forums right now, Mantic, Privateer Press and it's Sci Fi game, and countless "Out soon" notices from up-coming miniatures companies?!?!

I understand the need to "drum up interest" and how (supposedly) miniatures and gaming companies find it hard to meet product release dates (?) but I find this whole idea dangling of internet carrots just so plain boring! Half of these ventures never reach the light of day, and it's just a bunch of excitement over nothing.

If these miniatures ever do show up, and they are as good as they can be, then more power to the producers.....

Well, that may be but I think it is much more preferable than GW's strategy of having customers completely unaware of massive releases only weeks before they hit the shelves.

I'm sure they will come soon, just be patient Delephont

I prefer being forewarned of new products rather than being kept in the dark. That being said, I’m not a fan of companies that are a little pre-emptive with their advertising or don’t offer much substance with their advertising (aka the Mantic style of advertising). Basic concept art doesn’t do much for me as I need to see detailed pictures of minis and written information alongside a full website before my interest is piqued.

Delephont wrote:Am I the only person bored with all this "Vapour-ware" that seems to be flooding the forums right now, Mantic, Privateer Press and it's Sci Fi game, and countless "Out soon" notices from up-coming miniatures companies?!?!

I understand the need to "drum up interest" and how (supposedly) miniatures and gaming companies find it hard to meet product release dates (?) but I find this whole idea dangling of internet carrots just so plain boring! Half of these ventures never reach the light of day, and it's just a bunch of excitement over nothing.

It's not just about drumming up interest, though. It also gives them the opportunity to collect feedback before the model is released and make necessary changes as a result.

I'm all for companies showing us what they are working on.

Delephont wrote:Am I the only person bored with all this "Vapour-ware" that seems to be flooding the forums right now, Mantic, Privateer Press and it's Sci Fi game, and countless "Out soon" notices from up-coming miniatures companies?!?!

I understand the need to "drum up interest" and how (supposedly) miniatures and gaming companies find it hard to meet product release dates (?) but I find this whole idea dangling of internet carrots just so plain boring! Half of these ventures never reach the light of day, and it's just a bunch of excitement over nothing.

Well what’s the alternative? Keep everything a closely guarded secret until two weeks prior to release? You’d have to be an idiot to... oh wait...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Delephont wrote:Am I the only person bored with all this "Vapour-ware" that seems to be flooding the forums right now, Mantic, Privateer Press and it's Sci Fi game, and countless "Out soon" notices from up-coming miniatures companies?!?!

I understand the need to "drum up interest" and how (supposedly) miniatures and gaming companies find it hard to meet product release dates (?) but I find this whole idea dangling of internet carrots just so plain boring! Half of these ventures never reach the light of day, and it's just a bunch of excitement over nothing.

Well what’s the alternative? Keep everything a closely guarded secret until two weeks prior to release? You’d have to be an idiot to... oh wait...

Where is that "like" button on Dakka when you need it?

Where are you guys seeing a prototype? All I see is concept art.

Ouze wrote:Where are you guys seeing a prototype? All I see is concept art.

Page 2. Insaniak posted it, but apparently it is no longer a valid prototype as they've advanced the concept since then.

Which is kinda sad for me, as I like the Deathworm look.

spaceelf wrote:

18th Krasnograd wrote:Bumping to say the site is back up. Let's slashdot it again by all clicking on it, lemming like, at the same time!

Looks like the lemmings won, as when I checked the site I got a down for maintenance message.

WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Where is that "like" button on Dakka when you need it?

Just to the left of the 'Friend' button at the bottom right of the post...

Kanluwen wrote:

Ouze wrote:Where are you guys seeing a prototype? All I see is concept art.

Page 2. Insaniak posted it, but apparently it is no longer a valid prototype as they've advanced the concept since then.

...based (supposedly) on feedback from people who didn't like it when it was originally aired. Thus proving the worth of showing 'vaporware' before release...

I don't remember ever having seen that.

I call shenanigans, because I do like it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidenote: "that" is the preview model itself. I saw that other part though.

I don't recall if it was originally posted on Dakka. I know it popped up on Frothers, which is probably where I saw it the first time around, and also on TMP. Initial reception was distinctly less than favorable..

insaniak wrote:I don't recall if it was originally posted on Dakka. I know it popped up on Frothers, which is probably where I saw it the first time around, and also on TMP. Initial reception was distinctly less than favorable..

Well as I said, I think these were the guys who made this survey forever ago. I could be mistaken though. Strange they never came back with the initial concepts if it is them

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347697.page

Just to clarify my point about "Vapour-ware", I'm all for companies coming forward to elicit opinion on an upcoming product, this has happened on Dakka a number of times! What I dislike are threads either from / about companies that have an "exciting" new product that will be available some time in the never never!

This thread, I realise, was started by an excited forum member, so fair enough, and maybe my comment was ill fitted to this particular situation, however, for me, it brings to mind a lot of threads that are in the same vein, and it's just a lot of hot air leading to nothing.

I don't think that GW policy of secrecy is the better way of doing things, like the Bhudda said, there is a middle path. Companies announcing products when they have a solid release date! Sure, gak can happen, and maybe the product is delayed by a week or two, that's acceptible (we're not talking about a cure for Cancer here!) but anything else is just blowing in the wind.....me thinks.

- Edited by insaniak. Don't try to circumvent the language filter. -

Delephont wrote:Companies announcing products when they have a solid release date!

Which can't happen if they're posting the WIP in the hopes of garnering feedback on the design...

insaniak wrote:

Delephont wrote:Companies announcing products when they have a solid release date!

Which can't happen if they're posting the WIP in the hopes of garnering feedback on the design...

I guess I view it as two distinct stages. In the first instance company X announces they are looking to produce product Y, and what do people think of our initial concepts and designs? This is a totally valid question, and makes no moves to state whether the product will go to production. To me this is the purpose of WIP photos etc.

The second stage is when the company has reviewed it's feedback, gone through product development and is now ready to release the product to market. This is when I would expect a second announcement.

I'll say no more on this subject as I think I've explained my thoughts, and while I'm sure it in no way de-rails the thread (as it's not going anywhere anyway) others may find this line of discussion boring.

Delephont wrote:Companies announcing products when they have a solid release date!

Problem with that is pretty much only GW and a select few big dogs do that as a lot of the other companies do not have the resources to guarantee when something is being made, it'll be 100% ready at that time. Heck sometimes even GW does this, a big example is when they plastered the Daemon Prince all over the WoC book, only to release it 1-2 years later

I think I had a similar conversation about this on tmp

kenshin620 wrote:

Delephont wrote:Companies announcing products when they have a solid release date!

Problem with that is pretty much only GW and a select few big dogs do that as a lot of the other companies do not have the resources to guarantee when something is being made, it'll be 100% ready at that time. Heck sometimes even GW does this, a big example is when they plastered the Daemon Prince all over the WoC book, only to release it 1-2 years later

I think I had a similar conversation about this on tmp

I think this is all part of the process of new product introduction. If you know you can't guarantee a release date, how can you project your business costs? If you've borrowed money to finance a project, the chances are that those you borrowed from will want to know (within reason) a projected time line for a RoI (return on investment).....

If it's a small business, with a high degree of self financed projects, then it should be easy to project a realistic release date. For example, I'm using a caster from China, I expect to have the product available for purchase in three months time, so I advertise it as ready for sale in five months, giving a whole 2 months extra for any mishaps.....if a second tier supplier is late by two months, you need to be sourcing from a different supplier.

I think we reward business ineptitude too often in these niche hobbies, and in a way encourage it. We don't blink when products are late to market, we expect to have to "polish" a product after purchase (as part of the hobby experience) even though we spend top dollar on it, we don't complain when rules sets are released and require endless updates and FAQs, and yet for all of this companies still maintain it is a difficult sector to make money in!?!?

There is a picture of the marine somewhere, op I think.

Delephont wrote:

I think this is all part of the process of new product introduction. If you know you can't guarantee a release date, how can you project your business costs? If you've borrowed money to finance a project, the chances are that those you borrowed from will want to know (within reason) a projected time line for a RoI (return on investment).....

If it's a small business, with a high degree of self financed projects, then it should be easy to project a realistic release date. For example, I'm using a caster from China, I expect to have the product available for purchase in three months time, so I advertise it as ready for sale in five months, giving a whole 2 months extra for any mishaps.....if a second tier supplier is late by two months, you need to be sourcing from a different supplier.

It is the whole expectation thing where you go wrong. Chinese casters will not guarantee production dates. They can even just plain screw with you, which is what I believe was claimed by Tony. Further, the product can get caught up in customs, etc. I think that Privateer Press had this problem recently.

Delephont wrote:
I think we reward business ineptitude too often in these niche hobbies, and in a way encourage it. We don't blink when products are late to market, we expect to have to "polish" a product after purchase (as part of the hobby experience) even though we spend top dollar on it, we don't complain when rules sets are released and require endless updates and FAQs, and yet for all of this companies still maintain it is a difficult sector to make money in!?!?

I think this is a reasonable criticism. However, as of late there has been quite a bit of discontent about the quality of a certain large miniature company's products.

Delephont wrote:I think we reward business ineptitude too often in these niche hobbies, and in a way encourage it.

I think in general it's more that we accept it in the knowledge that a lot of these companies are small, one-man affairs run out of someone's garage.

We don't blink when products are late to market, we expect to have to "polish" a product after purchase (as part of the hobby experience) even though we spend top dollar on it, we don't complain when rules sets are released and require endless updates and FAQs, ...

We don't... ?

insaniak wrote:

Delephont wrote:I think we reward business ineptitude too often in these niche hobbies, and in a way encourage it.

I think in general it's more that we accept it in the knowledge that a lot of these companies are small, one-man affairs run out of someone's garage.

We don't blink when products are late to market, we expect to have to "polish" a product after purchase (as part of the hobby experience) even though we spend top dollar on it, we don't complain when rules sets are released and require endless updates and FAQs, ...

We don't... ?

Oh we don't.......c'mon, the "little" bit of nerd rage that flashed before our screens......we all know, in the grand scheme of things, the likes of me and others screaming foul won't amount to didly....and half of those who vowed never to sup from the GW teet eventually scrambled back, if not in body, then certainly in soul.

Plus anyway, up until now I've tried to avoid bringing GW into this, for obvious reasons.....and plus ironically, as far as my original point is concerned, this is certainly not something that you could accuse GW of.

Well site is somewhat back up and they made a post about their plan

They talk big, but time will tell if they can deliver. I'd take what they say with some salt

Also, I bolded some of the....interesting bits

We're committed to releasing full ranges for many of the Forces in Alien War in an expedited fashion so that you can build your armies quickly. But we also can't help ourselves and want to get some of our favorite sets to market as fast as possible!

We know how important "complete ranges" are though - and so we wanted to give you some ideas about our plans and upcoming releases.

First, a bit about terminology. We don't use the word "faction" which we tend to associate with some weird political splinter group ala the People's Front of Judea vs. the Judean Popular People's Front vs. the the Popular Front of Judea (as seen in Monty Python's Life of Brian). Anyway, we prefer and use the term Force (and not in the midichlori-whatever-they-were way)

Forces in Alien War

A Force in Alien War is typically a military organization of a nation, corporation, alien race or other Power that may involve infantry, power armor (hardsuits), heavy weapons, APCs, tanks, walkers, other types of cavalry, gunships, off-table fire-support, and more - depending on the needs and traditions of that particular Force.

There are two types of Forces in Alien War - Core Forces and Edge Forces.

Core Forces are those that are associated with the major powers of the Alien War universe. Edge Forces are supplemental sets that add flavor to the universe but don't necessarily warrant a full army.

For example, when we introduce a Core Force like the venerable United States Marine Corps, we will outline the plan for the follow-on sets in that Force over the next weeks and months. So with the USMC you'll have infantry followed closely by power armor (what we call hardsuits), then female Marines, and then heavy weapons. Over time, we will continue to add to those Core Forces with supplemental sets, vehicles, etc. - all in hard plastic. Core Forces will always be treated in this fashion so that you know what's coming and when to flesh out your army.

Edge Forces will represent a unit or small Force that can be done in one or two sets that we really believe should come to life to enhance the Alien War setting. For example, this might be a special operations unit within one of the lesser powers in the game, a "civilian" set, one of the native alien races, or an interesting vehicle that might not fit under the umbrella of a Core Force. Given the dynamic nature of alliances and multi-sided battles within the setting, these Edge sets may be used as auxiliaries with your army or just as small armies in games you play. These sets may never be followed by additional sets for that Force...but wait, that's not necessarily true...

In some cases, there may be a desire on the part of the community to enhance an existing Edge Force with additional sets. We'll always be open to doing this if enough people are behind it. For example, one of our first Edge Force sets are the Valkyries - hardsuit wearing, all-female elite special operations troops of the Nordic Federation. The Nordic Federation "may" become a Core Force over time, but we don't have a specific plan for that at present. We do think the set will be a fun one and add a lot of flavor to the game. If enough of you are interested in expanding the NF into a full Core Force, we can do that.

The division between Core and Edge Forces will give us the ability to launch some really fun "extra" sets while allowing you to have the confidence that a Force you begin to build will be fully realized if it's a Core one. We hope you like this approach to releases!

Bookmarked, and now following them on Twitter.

I am keeping up with this. This has promise.
I love what they're doing with their universe. The Plan has me heavily intrigued.

...female Marines... vehicles... Valkyries - hardsuit wearing, all-female elite special operations troops of the Nordic Federation...

I'll have to wait and see what the quality is like, but if they do these three things right, I'll be buying a lot of Defiance miniatures.

You forgot the civilians, Alex.

Crossing my fingers for this company, bookmarked.

Kanluwen wrote:You forgot the civilians, Alex.

I didn't. They're not confirmed yet for one, unlike the things I did list. And besides that, while I'd be glad to see someone making them, "civilians" is too broad a category to say whether I'd be in the market myself except on a case-by-case basis.

I must say that I'm looking forward to seeing what this company do. I've got this feeling that I've not had since the build up to the launch of Rogue Trader way back in the eighties: it just has this 'atmosphere' around it. I am also looking forward to see what Mantic come up with further down the line with Warpath. At the moment I've no real interest in space dwarves(I even viewed them as a joke way back then also; don't get me started on ratling snipers!).
On the whole the alternatives are starting to look more promising, long may it continue.

postin news about your game company on dakka... Better wear a flak Jacket....
This forum is so hard on its user... You guys treat each other like $#¡+....

Reminds me of a group of cool tough guys from Idiocracy...

This place is full of repressed nerd rage and sexual frustration... Even some of the MOD are blood thirsty,
Reminds me of the old "lord of the flies" movie...

Whatta Shark tank

I'm not mad at you for trying make a new game Defiance... Even if its home brewed. DP9 been home brewed for years.... Good luck to you.

5deadly wrote:postin news about your game company on dakka... Better wear a flak Jacket....
This forum is so hard on its user... You guys treat each other like $#¡+....

Reminds me of a group of cool tough guys from Idiocracy...

This place is full of repressed nerd rage and sexual frustration... Even some of the MOD are blood thirsty,
Reminds me of the old "lord of the flies" movie...

Whatta Shark tank

I'm not mad at you for trying make a new game Defiance... Even if its home brewed. DP9 been home brewed for years.... Good luck to you.

Thanks, I guess.

The game is vaporware. Site looks meh, all this game is is Starship Troopers V2.

Only thing missing is a claim that the prepaints will look 80% better then most people can paint.

As to the rest of your spoutings, if you don't like it, stuff it.

You want to polish a turd and call it fried gold, you go right ahead. Me? I don't like any of it. It's generic that we've seen 1000 times before.

Meh. Pass.

5deadly wrote:gibberish

Your incoherent raging in the Bushido thread was some sort of ironic performance art then?

Looking forward to seeing what Defiance comes up with.

This is the internet, incoherent raging is what it's all about.

Trying not to get too optimistic about this. The premise is great, but there's nothing to go on yet, just the same three concept pictures and a barely functioning website. Most of the links don't even work.

I love the concept art of the Panzer Grenadiers, am indifferent about the Bugs (not enough info yet), and really dislike the US Marines.

I feel like, if you're giving humans armour, you start with the helmet and torso armour (great, sorted), and then if you have the resources, thighs come next if it's ballistic armour (hit in the thigh can be lethal, very easily -- Black Hawk Down style). If it's more like riot / anti-close-combat-weapon armour, you might just armour the shins and knees before the thighs, but only if you were also armouring the arms... so yeah, I really dislike the armoured boot-shinpad-things because they seem to lack context, other than "SF Troopers Need Big Boots".

Plastictrees I'm glad you like my art know my work...That kinda makes me smile, you should follow me on twitter
Kisses

Right, this is the internet, and I expect to see a good bit of incoherent raging every time I come here (otherwise I would be disappointed! ^^)

The artwork definitely looks promising, will wait for some more pics with interest.

5deadly wrote:This place is full of repressed nerd rage and sexual frustration... Even some of the MOD are blood thirsty,

It always amuses me that saying anything remotely critical about a company gets blown up into 'rage' or mindless 'hating'...

I'm not mad at you for trying make a new game Defiance... Even if its home brewed. DP9 been home brewed for years.... Good luck to you.

Nobody is 'mad' at Defiance. But in the absence of them really showing anything much, people will judge them on their previous efforts. And the WGF ranges were notoriously hit-and-miss.

I asked about the hardsuits over on their new forum, and Tony posted some concept art in response.

...Daddy likes.

Oh wow. That looks delicious. The USMC Marines don't look as great as the concept art, but if the Hardsuits follow that great concept closely enough, and are in plastic, I'm totally in.

It's okay...I keep looking for some kind of sensor array or detail in the middle of where the face would be.

Maybe its just me but I feel like its missing something. Like the German trooper, LOVE the backstory, the armor suits are good. Suffice to say this model alone won't push me into the game in earnest.

Kanluwen wrote:

...Daddy likes.

Wow, that looks pimping. The fluff for the universe seems rather awsome, after a little poking around the website I regestered, its looks awsome. And if nothing ever comes of it atleast I got some awsome pic's to save on my HD.

Edit, check out the comms chatter http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/forum.. atleast it looks like they are trying. I hope there are good nuggets of info in there. I can't wait to read more about this galaxy and the players involved.

The minis look good. I wonder how the weapons would translate to the 40k rules though...

I am getting very afraid, the concepts look like frigging video game material but there are so many pitfalls which can make the transition less than satisfactory

Gop wrote:The minis look good. I wonder how the weapons would translate to the 40k rules though...

Bit too futurisitc methinks though?

These seem far better for sci fi games like Future Wars

The concept art is really good looking; very promising. Their plan, as it were, sounds great. Talk is cheap, obviously, but so far I'm keeping optimistic. They at least seem to have their ideas in order for the time being.

Brother SRM wrote:The concept art is really good looking; very promising. Their plan, as it were, sounds great. Talk is cheap, obviously, but so far I'm keeping optimistic. They at least seem to have their ideas in order for the time being.

Yeah. The only model they have made is that bug right? Even if that was scrapped, it still looked awful. I wish them luck living up to their art.

ph34r wrote:Yeah. The only model they have made is that bug right? Even if that was scrapped, it still looked awful. I wish them luck living up to their art.

They made the soldier in the first post, but the photo is too zoomed out to really judge.

5deadly wrote:Reminds me of the old "lord of the flies" movie...

Looking at how you post, maybe you should have read the book instead. Or paid attention at school.

kenshin620 wrote:I am getting very afraid, the concepts look like frigging video game material but there are so many pitfalls which can make the transition less than satisfactory

Gop wrote:The minis look good. I wonder how the weapons would translate to the 40k rules though...

Bit too futurisitc methinks though?

These seem far better for sci fi games like Future Wars

Or better yet, Infinity. Methink I see the archaic TAG that many an Ariadna player has been hoping for...

Kanluwen wrote:

...Daddy likes.

Reminds me of the powersuits from SF3D/Maschinen Krieger Zbv 3000. Or simply MaK.



http://www.maschinenkrueger.com/joomla/

^^ Pretty much bang on.

I like the styling, but, to me, it's pretty much a direct copy of the SAFS-style suits from SF3D/MaK.

AJC

if they are 28mm then I would be interested

Perhaps its not original, but so far theres little power armor in plastic on the market

zombie wrote:if they are 28mm then I would be interested

According to them they are 28mm

Not sure what kind though

http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/valkyrie-concept-rough-draft-for-review

They put up the Nordic Federation Valkyrie concept art and would like feedback on it.

Damn that hard-suit above looks awesome. I can imagine painting that in white and putting 'UN' iconography on it

I'm really liking some of the new sci-fi stuff that is coming along these days. In amongst Heavy Gear, Infinity, Anima Tactics, even Mercs, it has never looked so rosy for the near-future sci-fi collector.

They put up the Nordic Federation Valkyrie concept art and would like feedback on it.

Looks pretty good to be honest, they obviously have a talented artist working for them.

The first thing under "Fiction" is almost verbatim from the movie Aliens.

"Is this going to be a stand up fight or another bug hunt, sir?"

"That's enough private," Sergeant Johnson snapped. "Eyes front and listen to the Lieutenant!"

Lieutenant Gordon cleared her throat. "As I was saying, our last communication from Eden was inconclusive. The colonists have most likely had a technical communication problem...

It looks like an old MAK model. I dig the style..weapons look cool style is pretty cool. They do these in multi part plastic I might buy some.
I'm pretty sure I've seen the art on Deviantart before.. I follow the mech/mecha artist pretty close.

If this kit is done right....

Hi, maybe I can offer a little to this thread.

The name's Richard and I'm a semi-insider in Defiance Games (playtester in the ruleset they'll be coming out with later) so I can probably offer some insights.

The Bug posted above IS a very early concept; originally, the Bugs were going to be released first followed by Marines. However, given the generally poor reaction to the Bugs the design was scrapped and will be redone as the company's 3rd release. Personally, the original Bug design grew on me as sort of a random alien life form but not as an OMG huge swarm. I'm not overly enthused about more humans myself, but the Bugs -- yes please! I should probably go on the playtesting forum and start whining for concept stuff.

Right now, the Marines are in tooling and I've seen a mold prototype of one of the weapons (proof of concept) along with pre-renders of the Sprue contents. The Germans are in the design process and I've seen the early renders -- they look quite nice! No headshots yet -- just early renders of the legs and torso. I'm not personally thrilled by the helmet design on the Marine, but it's kinda grown on me. I can't tell you when they'll be released because, at this point, nobody knows, but it should only be a matter of time. What I can say is that they are NOT vaporware. Molds ARE being cut, boxes HAVE been designed, a pricing scheme HAS been finalized, and Tony et all are just waiting to have the physical product in hand before putting them on sale. None of this "pre-release orders that ship six months after they should have" nonsense!

The designer of the minis is the same one that did ALL of Wargames Factory's products, a dude named Tim. He's been working on minis renders for years now and his improved greatly, plus the company they're using should be able to achieve a high level of detail. The preview mini is actually a 3D printed prototype; I don't know if the actual sprues have been completed yet, but us playtester types are hoping for a release within a couple of months. Part of the problem is just working out methods -- plastic flow, how much you can fit on the sprue, etc. It's the same for any plastic product, or at least it was for Wargames Factory. The scale is 28mm, 1/56 slightly heroic and should be compatible with other mini lines, including GW. The company's people have been pretty adamant about keeping things within a reasonable true-scale. The assorted hardsuits: the USMC version above and the Valkyrie that's in the concept stage, won't be too much bigger than the regular minis. Terminator proxy is all I'm saying.

The power armor, interestingly enough, is not an "original" design: it was licensed from the same concept artist that did the Marine, German, and bugs. I'm not sure if Tim's started working on it yet, but I do not the concept artist has sent a reference document for the render. Actually, from what I understand it was the licensing of the Powered Armor that led to the Marine and German designs, both of which were commissioned afterward.

Again, I can't really say anything about the release except "soon" because, well, I'm not an employee of Defiance Games of a true "insider." I just get information slightly faster than the rest of the world. However, right now I know for a fact that the Marines are done and in tooling, the Germans should be complete soon, and the Bugs will be the third release. According to Tony Reidy, Defiance's owner, the digital design process they use should lead to a fast turnaround time for sets since they can send the files directly to the manufacturer, who is US-based and apparently within driving distance of Tony rather than on the other side of the world as was the case with WF. This doesn't mean a set a week or even a month, but they should be able to maintain a fairly ready release schedule. Plus, the digital design allows models to be quickly altered and repurposed (so, for instance, heavy weapons sets should be easier to do).

As to the website: Defiance Games has four employees, none of whom are particularly knowledgeable about forum coding. Tony Reidy is the de facto web guy and he's having to learn as he goes with help from the webhost, but . . . well . . . it's kinda a case of trial-and-error with the occasional "Oh gak, the entire site's vanished again!" This isn't a huge million-dollar operation we're talking about

Oh, and they're plan is to release infantry sets in 24s, Hardsuits is 12, and vehicles (which'll be a ways off) probably in twos depending on how big the thing is; prices should be the same across the board, so no core infantry for one armor $25 and $50 for another armor. There is also a plan to release sets like Heavy Weapons teams both in boxes and in clamshells containing all the parts for a single team, so if all you need is one Autocannon team, they'll have you covered the same will probably go for specialist type minis, but that's a ways off. Right now, the company is being a little conservative and just focusing on the score stuff; experiment are for later when a failed on will not put them all out on the street! It'll all be in plastic, by the way, so there'll be plenty of room for modding and conversions.

Anywho, I hope that was useful. Again, I'm only speaking as a semi-insider and, as far as I know, none of this is confidential. With Tony's permission I might be able to post some of the concepts I've seen, though . . . well . . . that depends on if I can get permission.

If you like, I come back and fill you in on a little of the universe as well. Tony's keeping that close to his chest since it's his baby, though we've all been contributing; I, for instance, wrote some of the preliminary fluff (subject to change) on the Bugs and even gave them their name (I'm so proud! When your Marines are getting slaughtered by Bugs in some abandoned colony you can thank me!).

are they called teranids ?

Nope.

Hudson's Bugs, named after their discover/first victim


We're still deciding on what sort of nickname (aside from Bugs) to call them.


I thought I'd mention a little about the setting:

It's 2259 and humanity has become heavily balkanized. The UN, EU, and other global unions are a thing of the past and most nations are going it on their own, colonized worlds and competing as necessary, sometimes even warring. Due to the limits of the FTL drive used in the setting it is difficult and expensive to wage a large-scale war so most actions will involve relatively small numbers of troops and low-intensity conflicts. Nations operate by realpolitik: making alliances and necessary and sometimes working together, sometimes fighting as necessary to achieve their own goals. Nationalism has become very important with all the good and bad that entails. However, despite the level of fighting the Alien War universe is that particularly grim nor dark: it's a time of expansion, exploration and colonization for humanity along with new ways of doing things. There are no inherent good guys and bad guys in the setting: the good guys are the ones fighting with you and the bad guys are the ones in your gunsights. The USMC and the Germans, as the first two forces, might work together one day and fight the next depending on the shifting nature of national alliances.

Part of the inspiration for the setting is the Age of Imperialism where European nations set out on earth to conquer and colonize the world, except that this time their doing it to the galaxy. Much of the "Alien" part of the Alien War universe will come from edge forces that can be incorporated as mercenaries in standing armies or used by themselves. We've got several ideas floating around, including two I'm personally pushing for. However, aside from the Bugs the primary focus will be on human forces. Though the setting draws a bit from the Age of Imperialism the aesthetics are going to be gritty sci-fi, drawing from Aliens and other movies for inspiration (and one of the projects we're working with on the forum is a Bug Hunt rules-set using Marines and Bugs, though that'll be a while yet if it even emerges.

Aside from the Bugs, another force I'm personal excited about (which hasn't got beyond the very early planning stage right now) is China. China in this setting is a true superpower with holdings all across Earth and a policy of aggressive expansionism. China controls client states in Africa and South America and so its troops and colonists will be truly multi-ethnic. Early plans are for a general "militia" style infantry who form the bulk of China's extra-solar military and act as security and defense while aggressive actions come in the form of elite troops using state-of-the-art weaponry and armor. I'm looking forward to the militia myself because I'm always a fan of the underdog and those guys are definitely the underdog (but should not be underestimated -- what they may like in technology they make up for with courage and dedication).

any chance you can find out the name of the company they have hired to do their production? I'm looking for a good one myself

Xeno wrote:Nope.

Hudson's Bugs, named after their discover/first victim


We're still deciding on what sort of nickname (aside from Bugs) to call them.


I thought I'd mention a little about the setting:

It's 2259 and humanity has become heavily balkanized. The UN, EU, and other global unions are a thing of the past and most nations are going it on their own, colonized worlds and competing as necessary, sometimes even warring. Due to the limits of the FTL drive used in the setting it is difficult and expensive to wage a large-scale war so most actions will involve relatively small numbers of troops and low-intensity conflicts. Nations operate by realpolitik: making alliances and necessary and sometimes working together, sometimes fighting as necessary to achieve their own goals. Nationalism has become very important with all the good and bad that entails. However, despite the level of fighting the Alien War universe is that particularly grim nor dark: it's a time of expansion, exploration and colonization for humanity along with new ways of doing things. There are no inherent good guys and bad guys in the setting: the good guys are the ones fighting with you and the bad guys are the ones in your gunsights. The USMC and the Germans, as the first two forces, might work together one day and fight the next depending on the shifting nature of national alliances.

Part of the inspiration for the setting is the Age of Imperialism where European nations set out on earth to conquer and colonize the world, except that this time their doing it to the galaxy. Much of the "Alien" part of the Alien War universe will come from edge forces that can be incorporated as mercenaries in standing armies or used by themselves. We've got several ideas floating around, including two I'm personally pushing for. However, aside from the Bugs the primary focus will be on human forces. Though the setting draws a bit from the Age of Imperialism the aesthetics are going to be gritty sci-fi, drawing from Aliens and other movies for inspiration (and one of the projects we're working with on the forum is a Bug Hunt rules-set using Marines and Bugs, though that'll be a while yet if it even emerges.

Aside from the Bugs, another force I'm personal excited about (which hasn't got beyond the very early planning stage right now) is China. China in this setting is a true superpower with holdings all across Earth and a policy of aggressive expansionism. China controls client states in Africa and South America and so its troops and colonists will be truly multi-ethnic. Early plans are for a general "militia" style infantry who form the bulk of China's extra-solar military and act as security and defense while aggressive actions come in the form of elite troops using state-of-the-art weaponry and armor. I'm looking forward to the militia myself because I'm always a fan of the underdog and those guys are definitely the underdog (but should not be underestimated -- what they may like in technology they make up for with courage and dedication).

I noticed you said China is going to be a "true superpower" but also an "underdog." So, there will be a huge amount of militia complemeted by elite special ops units? You said it was the early stages but do you have an idea of the aesthetic? Something like this, maybe:



Also, what kind of vehicles can we expect for the different armies? Does the company plan to make vehicles a large part of the game like 40K, or will they be less important than the infantry fight? Will 40K and Alien War be comparable in terms of game size? I understand you are not an "actual insider" but any illumination would be helpful.

AJCarrington wrote:I like the styling, but, to me, it's pretty much a direct copy of the SAFS-style suits from SF3D/MaK.

Reminds me also a lot of MaK. In a good way, I am looking with great interest at this project!

IMO the existing (cheap) MaK models in 1/35 can be used very nicely together with 28mm one.


Just see my website for some ideas:
http://www.adpublishing.de/html/maschinenkrieger.html

chaos0xomega,

Tony said to shoot him an e-mail at the Defiance Games site and let him know.



About the Hardsuit design:
While you'd have to ask the artist, I'm fairly certain it was modeled after the MaKs, which is rather nice because a lot of use thought they'd fit the role the Hardsuit is supposed to fill: as a Heinlein-esque Ape Suit a la Starship Troopers. Heavily armored, jump jets, bomb racks, the whole nine yards. The suit you see will actually be on the low-end of the tech scale: the 23rd century Marines tend to get all the crap details (Bug Hunts, long tours of the stars, colonial security, etc) and so also get hand-me downs from the main Army. A far cry from the modern day and age, but they're still a bunch of hard bastards more than capable of kicking ass with less

China:
As I said, the force profile for China is still a long ways way. However, the basic concept is that the old Chinese order (the current quasi-capitalist communism) collapsed violently, falling into a state of wardlordism. One of these warlords managed to unify most of China and declared a new empire. As the Chinese empire consolidated it annexed a number of other nations struggling to survive as the rest of the world balkanized around them. On Eath, China controls much of Asia along with parts of South America and Africa. The empire's philosophy is aggressive expansionism. The first set to be released, the militia, represents the ubiquitous troops recruited and trained in large numbers of protect China's diverse colonies. They're not particularly well-equipped or supported, unfortunately, making Chinese somewhat vulnerable to the predations of other forces in setting, including the US.

There hasn't been much of discussion of the elite troops yet, or really much about the gear the average militia will carry, though I do know the goal is to create a set that, with some modification can be used as anything from sci-fi militia to 1960s 3rd world military. I'm personally hoping from flak vests and numerous pseudo-rpgs myself, but that's a ways off. The only mention the powers that be have made of the other forces is that they include state-of-the-art powered armor piloted by elite troops. Really scary guys, honestly, and a rather powerful deterrent to anyone trying to contest China's power. The militia, though, in terms of the 23rd century battlefield, are something like cannon fodder . . . though, last I checked, low-tech troops properly handled can make things very painful for a modern military.


Rules:
While I can't say much about the actual rule-set (and, right now, I actually mean that literally -- they are undergoing revision and should look entirely different from the set we've been using), I can say that the initial rules set will be designed for platoon-scale actions with the possibility of a few vehicles, ideally played on a 4x4 board with a LOT of terrain. The weapons are nasty and can easily chew up an entire squad if they get caught in the open. It's all about fire, maneuver, act, and react. Plus, there is a fog of war element with random events that will be customized to the force and to the scenario. The Germans will have different events than the Bugs will have different events than the Marines, and so on. Scenario-specific events have, so far, not been focused on as much but will be visited when the design team starts working on scenarios. There is a plan, once the rules are done, to create starter box with two basic forces and a series of scenarios, with special rules for each type and so on. Ideally there'll be quite a few of these so it'll be easy to just pick up a box and play!

Personally, if I have MY way, Defiance will do it's own version of Space Hulk.

Other aspects will include a system for named characters including traits and squads gaining experience through campaign play. Additionally, when the rules are complete the Defiance Crew plan to put a quick-start insert and force sheet into every box so that it'll be easy to pick up, say, a box of Marines and Germans and have them shooting at each other inside of a hour. Speaking of force profiles, there will be a point system for creating your own troops, but right now the goal is that each force will have its own specific order of battle and you pick and choose a few options, such as swapping out a SAW for an RPG, dropping a special weapon to increase the experience of a couple of guys, and so forth. A Marine platoon, for instance, would be 3 twelve-man squads of three fire teams each, a command squad, and a heavy weapons squad (based on the real-world USMC organization). When creating your force, you start out with a base profile: in this case each fireteam have a Corporal with a rifle and underbarrel grenade launcher, a SAW gunner and assistant, and a rifleman/scout. You can, if you choose, swap out the SAW to increase a couple in experience (which can pay off big time), or maybe give your Corporal a shotgun instead of the rifle, and so on. At the platoon level you can field medics, RTOs, observers, flamer guys for cooking bugs, etc.

So, rather than spending a lot of time building a list you choose your face, make a couple of swaps if you wish, and start fighting. While this does mean many forces won't be inherently balanced, part of the goal of the game is using the resources available to you. A Marine squad, for instance, fields three SAWs and three grenade launchers: in the Alien War system that is a ridiculous amount of firepower, enough to turn a platoon of Chinese militia into dog food . . . assuming the militia try to fight the Marines head on. Meanwhile, with their heavy armor the Germans can wade through all that firepower (well, not exactly, but close) while firing back with high-powered rifles and excellent special weapons. This is balanced out by the fact that, for instance, there will be a LOT more Chinese than Marines, and the Marines will outnumber the Germans probably 2-1.

After the basic set is done, we'll probably work on a streamline version for company-level games; the current rules-set, though fast playing is better suited for small actions with individual squads and fireteams, and things like random events tend to affect this.

Vehicles:
The base rules aren't going to place too much emphasis on vehicles since there will probably only be a few on the table at a time, but the hypothetical company-level game will probably be different. Given that the default assumption is that the game will take place in a terrain-rich environment, vehicles will have some distinctive disadvantages, though they'll carry a lot of firepower to even the odds. I haven't personally seen the vehicle rules yet, so I can't really comment beyond that little bit.

Mode-wise, the current plan is to produce a small handful of universal hulls that will be customized based on the force, the in game justifcation being that they are made by a few large arms manufacturers and through joint development deals. For instance, in better times the US and Germany might have collapsed to develop an IFV, but when relations soured they wound up fighting it out with same vehicles, though in different configurations. Ultimately, though, vehicles are a LOT more expensive to produce than infantry so their not exactly high on the production order; the people at Defiance want to get a bit more established first.


Oh, and in case you wanted something else to wet your appetite:
The Marines will be 24 for $30, enough to field two full squads in the game, and the minis will not only be modifiable and fully compatible with other troops, but will contain enough special weapons that you can easily field a standard squad. When enough sets are released, you can do quite a bit of parts switching, such as Marine torsos with German bits for light infantry, or Marine arms and heads on Chinese troops for American colonial militia. Or, if you really want to get crazy, slap Bug parts on a standard human body to create nightmarish mutant hybrid monstrosities *cough*Genestealer Cult*cough*

No word on if they'll make Zoats and Slann, though

Kanluwen wrote:http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/valkyrie-concept-rough-draft-for-review

They put up the Nordic Federation Valkyrie concept art and would like feedback on it.

The term "thunder thighs" comes to mind...

Xeno: Have you seen other pictures of finished models/prototypes? I got the impression from the Marine mini that they're shooting for something closer to 25mm than the 28-32mm that were seeing from a lot of companies at the moment, is that the case?

plastictrees wrote:Xeno: Have you seen other pictures of finished models/prototypes? I got the impression from the Marine mini that they're shooting for something closer to 25mm than the 28-32mm that were seeing from a lot of companies at the moment, is that the case?

They've explicitly said that they're aiming for 28mm scale.

Exciting stuff. Defiance seems to be aiming big, even Mantic-sized. Here's hoping all of these plans come to fruition. I would REALLY like this to work out, even if only for the models.

Thanks a lot for the informative posts Xeno!

Certainly this has piqued my interest now, and I'm sure people will take this project a lot more seriously.

It sounds interesting so far, so definitely looking forward to what comes next

plastictrees wrote:Xeno: Have you seen other pictures of finished models/prototypes? I got the impression from the Marine mini that they're shooting for something closer to 25mm than the 28-32mm that were seeing from a lot of companies at the moment, is that the case?

I've seen a size comparison using one of the 3D prints (there were several and bastards didn't send one to me ). A Defiance Marine stands about the same height as a space marine and slightly shorter than a Wargames Factory shock trooper, plus about 1mm taller than a Pig Iron system trooper. Basically, they're about as tall as a Cadian but a good deal slimmer. The proportions are semi-heroic, 1/56 scale.

On the Valkyrie: I might be wrong on this, but I do believe the concept is that the Valkyrie is more akin to an Appleseed Landmate than the USMC powered armor (which should be about 40mm high, give or take). They will, proportion-wise, probably shape up to be about the same size as a Tau battlesuit (though I can totally, utterly assure you that using them as a proxy never once crossed any of our minds.

What that means is that those "thunderthighs" actually contain the pilot's entire legs, rather than just the forelegs, similar this:

.

The suit you're seeing is actually quite big, though there is another, much bigger one down the line (think VOTOMs size), but that's WAY down the line and it'll belong to one of the stranger human factions in the Alien War universe.

Xeno wrote:On the Valkyrie: I might be wrong on this, but I do believe the concept is that the Valkyrie is more akin to an Appleseed Landmate than the USMC powered armor (which should be about 40mm high, give or take). They will, proportion-wise, probably shape up to be about the same size as a Tau battlesuit (though I can totally, utterly assure you that using them as a proxy never once crossed any of our minds.

What that means is that those "thunderthighs" actually contain the pilot's entire legs, rather than just the forelegs, similar this:

I hope not. The shape doesn't seem right for a Landmate-style walker, and it would make more sense for the more advanced hardsuits to be smaller, not bigger, so that they can get the benefits of being a walker. Plus, I personally would like the hardsuit more if it's a PA suit than a mecha.

That said, you could have the pilot's legs inside the walker's thighs, which would make it something like this:

That picture reminds me horribly of economy class on China airlines!

Ah, apparently I was wrong about the size: the Valkyrie suit will be roughly the same size as the USMC suit, though light and with less armor for more maneuverability. I'm also going to guess that they float like a butterfly and sting like a cruise missile.

Also, Alex, if you don't mind I'm going to link your image to the playtesting forums. As the Valkyries are still a work-in-progress, it'll certainly be a useful item for refining the proportions (which do look a little off, the more I look at it; mainly, the torso seems a good deal too long).

Xeno wrote:Also, Alex, if you don't mind I'm going to link your image to the playtesting forums. As the Valkyries are still a work-in-progress, it'll certainly be a useful item for refining the proportions (which do look a little off, the more I look at it; mainly, the torso seems a good deal too long).

If you think it can help, go right ahead. Just keep in mind that the proportions can vary, depending on how many suit joints are aligned with the pilot's joints.

Somehow I don't think, based of revised information, the legs are going to be entirely within the suit's thighs. Also, that looks frikkin' uncomfortable!

The arrangement should be standard powered-armor configuration, then. Who knows what the justification will be for the large thighs (though I'm bettin' on jumpjets).

Longtime Lurker of the forum, but decided to register today. Anyway, i hope i get some of Brazilians in this game, but they will probably be China Vassals or something like that. Like everyone i really like the art & some of the fluff, but the Minis don't really look all that impressive, but patiently waiting for some news on the game & the minis

I can't speak for everyone but defiance look quite promising to me.I think i will keep an eye on this thread.

JetKinen wrote:Longtime Lurker of the forum, but decided to register today. Anyway, i hope i get some of Brazilians in this game, but they will probably be China Vassals or something like that. Like everyone i really like the art & some of the fluff, but the Minis don't really look all that impressive, but patiently waiting for some news on the game & the minis

Have they shown minis other than that one marine?

Xeno wrote:Somehow I don't think, based of revised information, the legs are going to be entirely within the suit's thighs. Also, that looks frikkin' uncomfortable!

Fair enough, it was just an idea. At least the problem with the ergonomics was just "would this be too uncomfortable to sit in?" and not "do we need to pull the pilot's arms out of their sockets?"

Panzer Grenadier looks fantastic. Can't wait to see some models. If they're up to par with the artwork, I don't think I'll be able to resist buying some.

plastictrees wrote:some of the fluff, but the Minis don't really look all that impressive, but patiently waiting for some news on the game & the minis

Have they shown minis other than that one marine?

No, they have shown concept art though. We are all eagerly anticipating the next model (and hoping its better than the Marine).

There's promise here. Once there are pics of the figures, I'll decide if I'm going to buy or pass.

While I can't show you the sprue (The Defiance People don't want me building unreasonable expectations until real progress is made) I will give you a brief on its contents:

Two Rifles in two different poses (the one shone in the test mini and a aimed-sraight version)
One SAW
One Rifle with underbarrel grenade launcher
One Carbine
Two Torsos
Three legs (one of the playtesters suggesting any civilian sets have more torsos than legs so you can use up the excess).
Six heads, includind two bare, two with open face plate, and two with closed. I'm not actually all that fond of the helmet myself, but I think it looks a LOT better with the closed face plate.
Assorted bits of kit.

This list is subject to change, but I doubt it'll change much. The major issue will be how much kit they can fit; plastic minis are a bit weird to manufacture since you have to take into account plastic flow when laying out the sprue, which often limits what can be done. This is, from what I understand, the reason plastics used to have lower detail: have to maintain preasure meant it was difficult to ensure all the details would get filled in properly. That isn't as much of an issue anymore.

Oh, and I know I'm going to get in trouble for this but . . .

GERMANS!

Concept Art


Concept Art


Reference Image


The first two have been seen on Defiance's website (which should get sorted out any day now, but the other is exclusive (and I'm probably going to get yelled at, though technically they just said I wasn't allowed to show renders. Speaking of which, I've seen an early render of the legs and they will not be as skinny on the final model. The proportions will be different as well, but that's because of the heroic-scale nature of the minis.


I've also seen a similar reference image of the USMC Hardsuit and it's very, very, VERY nice. If you like the MaK suits you'll love it!

Pazeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew! They have a laser!

Starting to sound very cool, trying very hard not to get too excited

Xeno wrote:While I can't show you the sprue (The Defiance People don't want me building unreasonable expectations until real progress is made) I will give you a brief on its contents:

The irony of course is that the artwork is doing that to some

Reasonable or unreasonable if these pictures are accurate I'm going to need and save up some dough...

Last one, and no, I have no idea if rendering has even begun on this, but I do know it's high on the priority list (after the USMC and German Heavy Weapons, if I do recall).

Reference Images for the USMC Hardsuit:


Drooling yet? I know I am

Holy cow! I like those concepts a lot. Can´t wait to finally see pictures of the minis, especially the Germans.

Ok, these are on my list to buy. Be careful Xeno, if you get yelled at we might lose a nice source of news.

Holy Cow, that's nice!



As that's as close to a drooling icon I can find!

Gonna have to get me some of these when they hit shelves (Online stores, whatever)

Love the Germans, especially the Hardsuits, especially the design - chaingun and a missile launcher, what's not to like! - and can't wait to see more of those Valks too!

I swear the Germans uniforms were designed by a stylist. No matter the era, if you throw a German looking uniform on something it just looks awesome!

That said, if the german minis look like those concepts I will buy close to 100 of them. Even the heavy weapons look to be made of awesome covered in awesome sauce.

http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/valkyrie-concept-rough-draft-for-review

Oh my...

Xeno wrote:Last one, and no, I have no idea if rendering has even begun on this, but I do know it's high on the priority list (after the USMC and German Heavy Weapons, if I do recall).

Reference Images for the USMC Hardsuit:


Drooling yet? I know I am

This looks remarkably similar to Maschinen Krieger equipment.

http://www.agisn.de/html/maschinenkrieger.html

Maschinen Krieger quite literally has futuristic 'Space Germans' as a major theme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maschinen_Krieger_ZbV_3000

Check out the article and the links to see what I mean.

In case you are wondering, this guy is one of the concept artists:

Alexander Iglesias: http://flyingdebris.deviantart.com/

He did the German as an original concept, and the powered armor design was licensed from and slightly altered. The Marine, Bug, and Valkyrie are from a different artists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the record, here's a scale comparison for you based on one of the 3D prints. This should give you more of an idea about how they size up.



They should be a pretty good match for Cadians and other IG figures . . . if proxying is your thing. If you go by the mock-up for the hardsuit I posted above, it should give some so idea about how big that will be in comparison (assuming the sculptor maintains the same scale -- I don't know it he will, though I'm hoping for it just to have big, hulking, beastly powered armor dominating the table!).

I notice alot of the concept artwork is by a guy i saw on 'Concept robots' called Alex Iglesias ('Flying debris' on deviantart apparently). Mainly the Hard suit pictured above.

Some of his artwork is stunning.

I do find it slightly suspicious that i came across the image, without any form of copyright (some of his images were copyrighted), on an open submission blog.

Dang. That scales up kinda nicely.

Perkustin wrote:I notice alot of the concept artwork is by a guy i saw on 'Concept robots' called Alex Iglesias ('Flying debris' on deviantart apparently). Mainly the Hard suit pictured above.

Some of his artwork is stunning.

I do find it slightly suspicious that i came across the image, without any form of copyright (some of his images were copyrighted), on an open submission blog.

I know what you're implying, but what would the game be here? They're not asking for money, by all appearances they weren't ready for launch when people started posting links to their site. I think you're being needlessly suspicious.

Perkustin wrote:I notice alot of the concept artwork is by a guy i saw on 'Concept robots' called Alex Iglesias ('Flying debris' on deviantart apparently). Mainly the Hard suit pictured above.

Some of his artwork is stunning.

I do find it slightly suspicious that i came across the image, without any form of copyright (some of his images were copyrighted), on an open submission blog.

Always a problem, isn't it?

I do know for a fact that this powered armor design has been licensed from him; he even did some modifications to the images (mainly scaled up the feet a tad). The suit was originally licensed because it, along with the assorted MaK suits, were frequently cited by some of the forum goers as exactly the sort of thing they were looking for in a suit of powered armor.



Re: copyright

This is my own opinion, but I'm actually surprised more people in the minis industry aren't sued for copyright violations. I come across more "Not-X" style minis than I can count, many of which are near direct copies of pre-existing IPs. It's not something I particularly have a problem with since the IPs in question don't exactly seem interesting in licensing their stuff, but it is one of those noticeable things. So I can very much understand how people would be worried about IP being ripped off, especially from relatively small time* artists like Mr. Iglesias and the other gentleman DG has commissioned art from. I know the artists don't like it either (I've read more than one account of blatant stealing from artists on DeviantArt).


Though, given the amount of work industry work he seems to do, "small time" might be doing him a disservice.

Xeno wrote:Last one, and no, I have no idea if rendering has even begun on this, but I do know it's high on the priority list (after the USMC and German Heavy Weapons, if I do recall).

Reference Images for the USMC Hardsuit:


Drooling yet? I know I am

Love this one... Im waiting for it...

Xeno wrote:






They should be a pretty good match for Cadians and other IG figures . . . if proxying is your thing. If you go by the mock-up for the hardsuit I posted above, it should give some so idea about how big that will be in comparison (assuming the sculptor maintains the same scale -- I don't know it he will, though I'm hoping for it just to have big, hulking, beastly powered armor dominating the table!).

Mostly just wanted to quote this as it might be missed.

Xeno, have they said how they're planning to break down the models? Separate arms at shoulder? Completely separate guns?

The molds will be break down like so:

The guns will be molded into the arms, with five guns arms on the marines sprue, plus separate right arms in at least two different poses; separate torsos and legs; separate heads (of course), plus assorted ammo pouches and such to apply as you like.



As a side note: this weekend I assembled a bunch of Warlord Games plastic German infantry and I have to say, after that experience, I'm wary of the idea of weapons molded separate from the arms (especially in the very fine scale Warlord uses). While the results often looked good, the process was extraordinarily fiddly and didn't really add much more than an extra step to the construction process. That, and the shooting poses for the basic rifle seemed very awkward. On the other hand, I'm open to seeing it done again as the German set seemed to be a mediocre implementation of a good idea.

The USMC hardsuit models would be a great fit for me personally as I'm a sucker for those types of power suit models (warzone bauhaus vulkan suits, at-43 UNA tac arms, Incursion Allied ape suits).

Shepherd23 wrote:I swear the Germans uniforms were designed by a stylist. No matter the era, if you throw a German looking uniform on something it just looks awesome!

That said, if the german minis look like those concepts I will buy close to 100 of them. Even the heavy weapons look to be made of awesome covered in awesome sauce.

Well Hugo Boss did design the SS uniforms....."Many of the uniforms were produced by Hugo Boss and some were produced under forced labor conditions [3] and in concentration camps, especially later in the war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_and_insignia_of_the_Schutzstaffel

I know its a wiki but im shure if you wanted to dig around in books you could find something to back it up.


I do know what you mean though, it's the cut of the uniforms they where designed to be intimidating and it workes. Just get rid of the nazi garbage (again I think the symbol's looked awsome, just not what they came to repersent.) and you have a winner.

I really can't wait to see what Defiance games comes up with next. If they can make the artwork come to life I will be one happy panda.

One more thing, thank you xenos for posting those pictures. Take a look GW, this company has me more excited in one month then you have in the last 7+ years, show us what you are doing, it's not Soviet Era Russia here the cold war is over.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
One more thing, thank you xenos for posting those pictures. Take a look GW, this company has me more excited in one month then you have in the last 7+ years, show us what you are doing, it's not Soviet Era Russia here the cold war is over.

You're welcome!

Actually, part the reason I posted that stuff was just to quelch misinformation, mainly because it's kinda annoying when you know (some of) the truth

I've run out of direct info I can give (short of posted shots of the actual computer render of the sprue and the Germans, which I was specifically told not too when asking for permission), though I can give a rumor:

Apparently things are going very well with the manufacturers so there is a good possibility there will be real live plastic in peoples' hands before the end of the year . . . barring a disaster. That might be a conservative estimate. The big problem right now is just figuring out how to lay out the sprue so the plastic flows properly (quite tricky, believe it or not). Once the sculptor and company work out how to engineer the sprue the production schedule should increase substantially; right now they're in the "build the tools to build the tools" phase.

However, don't scream at me if this doesn't happen

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Xeno wrote:Last one, and no, I have no idea if rendering has even begun on this, but I do know it's high on the priority list (after the USMC and German Heavy Weapons, if I do recall).

Reference Images for the USMC Hardsuit:


Drooling yet? I know I am

Love this one... Im waiting for it...

Looks like an ma.K http://www.maschinenkrueger.com/joomla/

Thats a good thing.

AOM, you're really making me miss my back room privileges. I've been busting Tony's chops for weeks, but he's saying it should be working. Moral of the story, I'm missing out on the good stuff. Now I just have to wait on information just like a regular schnook.

This just popped up on the Defiance Games homepage:



That's the template the plastics company will use to cut the molds. I dunno how long it takes to cut a mold, but there were be product!

Oh, and those discs are bases attached to the mold. Tony came up with a rather good idea to simply incorporate base manufacture into the figure molds so you get four bases per sprue: enough for your minis and extra leftover to sell. Tony apparently has other ideas for those discs as well.

Erm, xeno, I'm not entirely sure we were supposed to post that. Ah well, I doubt Tony will mind.

winnertakesall wrote:Erm, xeno, I'm not entirely sure we were supposed to post that. Ah well, I doubt Tony will mind.

It's public knowledge - you can see it here.

I'm a little disappointed those are bases and not tiny iPod speakers. But bases are pretty cool too.

AlexHolker wrote:

winnertakesall wrote:Erm, xeno, I'm not entirely sure we were supposed to post that. Ah well, I doubt Tony will mind.

It's public knowledge - you can see it here.

Oh so it is, I am slow on news. Apologies Xeno

winnertakesall wrote:Oh so it is, I am slow on news. Apologies Xeno

Nah, it's actually kinda my fault: I apparently forgot to post the direct link.


Oh, as a side note: apparently, concept work has started on the first Alien Edge set. It should be rather interesting and, even better, multi-purpose so you could use them in fantasy or sci-fi games.

Love the concepts so far. Thanks for posting this!

Xeno wrote:Oh, as a side note: apparently, concept work has started on the first Alien Edge set. It should be rather interesting and, even better, multi-purpose so you could use them in fantasy or sci-fi games.

Interesting. I wonder if this has anything to do with the discussion of lizard-centaurs and mythological composite creatures.

AlexHolker wrote:

Xeno wrote:Oh, as a side note: apparently, concept work has started on the first Alien Edge set. It should be rather interesting and, even better, multi-purpose so you could use them in fantasy or sci-fi games.

Interesting. I wonder if this has anything to do with the discussion of lizard-centaurs and mythological composite creatures.

All I can say is "no." Sorry.

Not bad I will get some when released.

So, look what we've got: BUUUUUUGS!





What you're looking at is a ref sheet put together for me by Tony Reidy: a size comparison between a Marine and basic Drone, some shots from different sides, a close up of the face, and, best of all, a pose ref for how these guys can be set up. I've always got, sitting in my e-mail inbox, shots of the 3D models; everything is done for them except the limbs (and that's just a matter of getting several good poses).

The bug body will be divided, as you can see, into three pieces: upper body and a two piece lower body, all connected by ball joints so you can pose the hell out of them. All of the limbs will be ball-jointed as well. I'm particularly thrilled with this because my prototypical image of a "Bug" comes from the Starship Troopers movie: weird, jerky movements and a flailing mass of limbs coming at you at full speed. Plus, to me at least, the scrunched up version of the bug resembles a trapdoor spider just before it springs open and pulls some poor bastard into a dark tunnel.

The plan to release a set for the basic Drones, bigger and nastier Warriors, and an upgrade set for Tech Bugs (the basic sets plus an upgrade sprue).


Some more info: the Marines should be about done tooling and the Germans have already been sent off; once the limbs are done for the Bugs they too will be sent to tooling. After that, it'll be the Power Armor. I'm not sure what comes up next. However, there is currently serious discussion about bikers (like, "discussing what should be on the sprues and how it should laid out" discussion). I'm not giving any guarantees here, though.

The quality of the casts will make or break those bugs. I like the design well enough for what they are, but those segmented exoskeletons need sharp, deep detail or they'll look like gak.

I really want to see the final product for the 'Hard Suits'. I've always liked that kind of look and I think they would work awsomely for Tomorrow's War. The Germans look Ace and I can't wait for them either. I am thinking of just picking some up to paint up and model. If the game is good thats just a extra bonus IMHO. Again I think the Germans would fit in well with tomorrow's war also. =o]


Keep up the good work Defiance Games, if you make good quailty products that are reasionably priced people will buy them.

Like all your artwork, that looks solid. I echo the sentiment that they'll need to be sharply detailed though. If they end up as muddy as some Wargames Factory sculpts they won't look so hot.

Looks like there are some renders, hard to see any details though

Really liking the gun myself.

I really hope tony decides to inclued the closed helmet also like he said they would. That would be awsome. Can't wait to see the hardsuits. The bugs also look rather well done again it will come down to quality/price. If they can keep the price point around what they have said before and the quality is better then the WGF 'greatcoats' then you guys got a winner here.

I dont liked the marine... But the exosuit and the bugs are promissing (if the bugs come as they look on the concepts, even with lower sculpt quality, i may jump in o.O).

Those bugs are what i expected for Tyranids ^^

Oh dear... Really hoping that's just an early WIP.

Just looking at how soft the detail is on his legs, and considering that the render tends to be much sharper than the finished product... he's going to be a featureless lump of plastic with a rifle sticking out of it.

They look better than the WGF trash we've already seen, but not by much :/

insaniak wrote:Oh dear... Really hoping that's just an early WIP.

Just looking at how soft the detail is on his legs, and considering that the render tends to be much sharper than the finished product... he's going to be a featureless lump of plastic with a rifle sticking out of it.

chaos0xomega wrote:They look better than the WGF trash we've already seen, but not by much :/

Hmm I hope this isnt going to be a case of "The apple doesnt fall far from the tree"

Loving the bugs. Not too sure about the marine though. He just seems.... odd.

Still, the bugs concepts are awesome.

Well it looks like WGF2 - the same crap with a new name

The helmet looks a bit big. Now as we all know that's how it should be, helmets add size to the head and GW is wrong, wrong, wrong when they make marines whose helmeted heads are the same size as their bare heads.

BUT... doing it right ends up looking wrong on a mini.

So I'd recommend that physics and biology be damned and the helmeted heads be the same size as a bare head.

What surprises me with these and the WGF stuff is the lack of quality considering they are computer designed. I cannot see that 3d printing would cause this much loss of detail. I have had things printed in the past and I know that hard edges are much better, but I have had fluid items printed as well and they have had much better detail than we are seeing here. I am still hoping for the Germans and the hardsuits to come out good.

http://www.beastsofwar.com/defiance-games/usmc-gunner-defiance-games/#comment-39927

Seems wrong/unrealistic to me how he holds the SAW. Apart from that with the right price they will still be okay. But I am waiting for the Grenadiers as well.

The arms look really fat and old.

There may be flaws in these guys, but it seems to me that these are worlds ahead of the greatcoats.

I've no dog in this fight, ( I don't need any more human troopers) but I followed the Greatcoats process nearly from start to finish and these renders are much much nicer than the greatcoat renders.

Also negative commets regarding the proportions of the bodies are slightly humorous in light of the rediculous cartoon dimensions of Cadians.

As always, let's see what the figures look like when they come out.

Eilif wrote:Also negative commets regarding the proportions of the bodies are slightly humorous in light of the rediculous cartoon dimensions of Cadians.

That would only be 'humorous' if the people complaining about the proportions of these guys don't have similar issues with the proportions of the Cadians...

I really think it's the helemt that's not doing it for me. There seems to be a little to much exposed flesh for a 'Space Marine'. The painted model looks heads and tails better then the plastic grey one.

I also think that the guns should of had a foward hand hold. Most moderen solders use them now as it helps with aiming, it give you a steadier gun, helps with recoil etc. Most solders don't 'bare back' anymore.

I still have high hopes for the hard suits and the german 'heer'.

And let's not even get into a proper scale debate. Almost nothing done in 28mm is in 'proper scale'.

They have a bunch of rifles with foregrips.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
I really think it's the helemt that's not doing it for me. There seems to be a little to much exposed flesh for a 'Space Marine'.

I was under the impression that most interested parties were thinking about them being IG substitutes and not alt-astartes. They've got way too little armor to be anything more than scouts.

warboss wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
I really think it's the helemt that's not doing it for me. There seems to be a little to much exposed flesh for a 'Space Marine'.

I was under the impression that most interested parties were thinking about them being IG substitutes and not alt-astartes. They've got way too little armor to be anything more than scouts.

Also, these models have been designed for an entirely new game system with it's own background and factions.

The new BoW picture is restoring some hope for this line for me. The new render looks better (maybe it's just the angle), and the painted figure looks quite nice, and that isn't even a particularly fantastic paint job. Although, it's the Heer and hardsuits that I'm looking forward to most of all.

I don't like the open helmet at all. The enclosed helmet is better, but I'm more interested in the bare heads. The shin guards could also be better - the concept art has some nice, sharp detail on it that was left off the sculpt.

But really, my greatest concern is that the female marines might look like the Amazons. Not-so-subtle hints that pronounced cheekbones and lower eyelids are not "sexy" seem to have fallen on deaf ears.

I don't think they should differentiate the two genders at all with the marines. Just sculpt the hint of boobs on some of the torsos and have some of the bare heads female.

Well, they may he doing it that way, but it is implied that they are two different unit types or something.

personaly I love them. If the price is right and shipping to the uk is resonable I will get some I think

warboss wrote:

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
I really think it's the helemt that's not doing it for me. There seems to be a little to much exposed flesh for a 'Space Marine'.

I was under the impression that most interested parties were thinking about them being IG substitutes and not alt-astartes. They've got way too little armor to be anything more than scouts.

Sorry, I guess I should of said 'Space Marine, not sphzz muhrenzz' as in Men who fight from Star Ships, as a Marine is a man who fights from a ship.

Not Geneticly engeneered bad-asses with a more OP Primarch

Unless that is the role that the 'hard suits' are going to be used for ie EVA's, Boarding missions, vacuum combat etc etc etc. If they function simular to the USMC of today, then the Navy would be a 'black navy' (space) with the marines being the main fighting force from those ships. They will have a intergrated combined arms approach with their own landing crafts, logistics, armour (maybe the hard suits or some kind of IFV, APC) artillery and air cover ( orbital, atmospheric or both maybe?). I would see each space shp as being 'self sufficent' in battle depending on the size of the engagment. Keeping the spirit of the MAGTF would be a great idea and would make total sence considering the distances between planets.... unless you have 'The Plot tm' needing some kind of handwavium solution so that ships can move around alot faster.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

Not Geneticly engeneered bad-asses with a Ridiculously more OP Primarch

Fixed that for you

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

Unless that is the role that the 'hard suits' are going to be used for ie EVA's, Boarding missions, vacuum combat etc etc etc. If they function simular to the USMC of today, then the Navy would be a 'black navy' (space) with the marines being the main fighting force from those ships. They will have a intergrated combined arms approach with their own landing crafts, logistics, armour (maybe the hard suits or some kind of IFV, APC) artillery and air cover ( orbital, atmospheric or both maybe?). I would see each space shp as being 'self sufficent' in battle depending on the size of the engagment. Keeping the spirit of the MAGTF would be a great idea and would make total sence considering the distances between planets.... unless you have 'The Plot tm' needing some kind of handwavium solution so that ships can move around alot faster.

From the fluff they've written on their site, the models we're seeing currently are ground-based troopers, not space combatants.

agnosto wrote:
From the fluff they've written on their site, the models we're seeing currently are ground-based troopers, not space combatants.

Fluff, from a company without a game yet? I wouldn't give it too much creedence in how you use the figs. The hardsuits as pictured would be excellent vac-armor for ship boarding actions. However, you're right in that nothing else in the concept drawings seems to be suited for combat in space. This is definitely a ground-based line of figs that leans much more toward Sci-Fi (starship troopers, Hammers Slammers, etc) than Sci-Fantasy (40k, star wars, etc).

I see the weapons are railed, but there are no optics in sight. Considering the fact that every modern first-world combatant has optics on their weapons in 2011, we're supposed to look at future-space-soldiers and be quite happy that their weapons have those modern-looking rails all over them, but the designers and decision-makers all seemingly have no idea what they're actually for..

scipio.au wrote:I see the weapons are railed, but there are no optics in sight. Considering the fact that every modern first-world combatant has optics on their weapons in 2011, we're supposed to look at future-space-soldiers and be quite happy that their weapons have those modern-looking rails all over them, but the designers and decision-makers all seemingly have no idea what they're actually for..

Maybe in the future all the soldiers have implant targeting optics? Gives you the option to paint chrome colored eyes at least like all the cyber punk stuff. Just a thought.

Whilst I do not have any major problems with these, there is one thing I just don't like. The marine with the SAW, is that a pistol grip grenade launcher at the front? That on a long (ish) weapon with the main trigger right at the back, he'd have to look like he's playing snooker/pool (delete as appropriate) to have his hands on both grips at once.

Seems rather uncomfortable to me, and could lead to increased inaccuracy and muscle strain from trying to fire both or switch from one to the other quickly enough when the situation demands it.

Otherwise, I would consider that an excellent mini, I am a fan of the helmet, and the fact that the bare head is smaller, makes the armour look bulkier and gives the entire model a better proportion IMO.

http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/shop#ecwid:category=1831024&mode=category&offset=0&sort=normal

The Marine pre-orders are now up. The kit is 24 USMC rifleman for 30 bucks, with deals on bulk orders. The projected ship date is January 16th with hopes to release earlier. Frankly, I'm very excited, but due to the fact that I'm currently in the dig house for buying an X Box (for a great price, I might add), I'll have to wait a few weeks to put my order in. Now if you don't mind, I have some to notice a hair cut or compliment a blouse or go see Twilight or something.

cheap. you can get 24 GW lord of the rings figures for 50.

My, those really are quite terrible, aren't they?

Still waiting for sprue shots, but will probably get 1 box for bits.
Otherwise I have enough space grunts already.


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Funny thing from their webshop:

USMC price points are: 29,95, 99 and 199 dollars.

And big honking ad for free shipping for any order over 100 dollars!
so 99 order doesn't qualify and the next price point is almost 200!

i like the models. they arent as good as GW but very little is these days....

they should have more detailed pictures though. like a full-screen shot of all the different marines with all the different weapons.

Nice. Looks very solid.

They look passable save for the head/helmet, I may pick them up for use with tomorrows war, with a head swap.

i wanna see the sprues, and im still waiting for BUGs, PAs and Females...

Defiance has joined some distributors and released the information that their first boxed set for the USMC marines will be priced @ 30$ MSRP for 24 USMC marines. Prices tentative and may change upon launch.

Great price I must say ;D

lord_blackfang wrote:My, those really are quite terrible, aren't they?

How so? I rather like them, especially the heads with the fully enclosed face.

Per the Warstore...

PreOrder the USMC Infantry Box of 24 Figures from Defiance Games and get an EXTRA SPRUE of 2 Marines with each box set ordered! These Marines are set to land in mid-January, so order yours now! Defiance Games is making these Marines for their SciFi game Alien War.

http://www.thewarstore.com/product70701.html

Depending on how much I have leftover after the holidays, I might get a box or two and see how they are.

Kanluwen wrote:Per the Warstore...

PreOrder the USMC Infantry Box of 24 Figures from Defiance Games and get an EXTRA SPRUE of 2 Marines with each box set ordered! These Marines are set to land in mid-January, so order yours now! Defiance Games is making these Marines for their SciFi game Alien War.

http://www.thewarstore.com/product70701.html

Depending on how much I have leftover after the holidays, I might get a box or two and see how they are.

Pretty tempting

But I'm miffed no actual sprue pics yet, the current figures right now are kinda iffy

Blackhoof wrote:Well, they may he doing it that way, but it is implied that they are two different unit types or something.

The forums have been wiped of older posts but IIRC the female Marines are mix-and-match with their male counterparts. It's the Nordic Federation Valkyrie hardsuits that are an all-female unit.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Unless that is the role that the 'hard suits' are going to be used for ie EVA's, Boarding missions, vacuum combat etc etc etc. If they function simular to the USMC of today, then the Navy would be a 'black navy' (space) with the marines being the main fighting force from those ships. They will have a intergrated combined arms approach with their own landing crafts, logistics, armour (maybe the hard suits or some kind of IFV, APC) artillery and air cover ( orbital, atmospheric or both maybe?). I would see each space shp as being 'self sufficent' in battle depending on the size of the engagment. Keeping the spirit of the MAGTF would be a great idea and would make total sence considering the distances between planets.... unless you have 'The Plot tm' needing some kind of handwavium solution so that ships can move around alot faster.

Again IIRC, the Marines are underfunded so they have only a limited number of hardsuits and send them in first to deal with emplacements etc, with their lightly-armoured brethren bringing up the rear.

scipio.au wrote:I see the weapons are railed, but there are no optics in sight. Considering the fact that every modern first-world combatant has optics on their weapons in 2011, we're supposed to look at future-space-soldiers and be quite happy that their weapons have those modern-looking rails all over them, but the designers and decision-makers all seemingly have no idea what they're actually for..

Conrad Turner wrote:Whilst I do not have any major problems with these, there is one thing I just don't like. The marine with the SAW, is that a pistol grip grenade launcher at the front? That on a long (ish) weapon with the main trigger right at the back, he'd have to look like he's playing snooker/pool (delete as appropriate) to have his hands on both grips at once.

These issues are related; whoever is sculpting the weapons is just copying wholesale from existing images and paying little, if any, heed to how they're supposed to work. (Which is not to say that whoever is sculpting the figures is paying due heed to how things are supposed to work there - witness the bizarre placement of the Marine armour - but at least there's a design process in evidence.) Earlier renders of the SAW were exact copies of the KAC ChainSAW. Now, you can't reach down and fire the M203 on that but as it was intended largely as a bit of fun, no harm done. The obvious thing would have been to replace it with a remotely-triggered grenade launcher and to add a camera on the gun and an eyepiece on the gunner. Instead it's been replaced with an exact copy of the RDA grenade launcher from Pocahontas Dances with Fern Gully and the chainsaw-foregrip removed - which means the rear grip no longer makes sense and gunner is forced into an awkward posture. As for the rifles, those are clearly copies of existing commercial AR-pattern offerings - possible KACs, possibly someone else's - and since those are usually shown on their manufacturer's websites sans optics...

Sadly, these guys seem to be carrying over all their old habits from Wargames Factory. In particular the distain for outside opinion, either openly on forums or under an NDA. If they continue as they have even the hardsuits might not be salvageable. So much wasted potential.

Blackhoof wrote:i like the models. they arent as good as GW but very little is these days....

they should have more detailed pictures though. like a full-screen shot of all the different marines with all the different weapons.

I'd expect more stuff like that once we're a little closer to release. I'm looking forward to them too!

I believe that the company has a lot of potential, and I am looking forward to this set as well as future ones.

A friend of mine and I are already looking into buying Panzergrenadiers and Bugs to do a head-to-head battle using Tomorrow's War ruleset

Xeno wrote:While I can't show you the sprue (The Defiance People don't want me building unreasonable expectations until real progress is made) I will give you a brief on its contents:

Two Rifles in two different poses (the one shone in the test mini and a aimed-sraight version)
One SAW
One Rifle with underbarrel grenade launcher
One Carbine
Two Torsos
Three legs (one of the playtesters suggesting any civilian sets have more torsos than legs so you can use up the excess).
Six heads, includind two bare, two with open face plate, and two with closed. I'm not actually all that fond of the helmet myself, but I think it looks a LOT better with the closed face plate.
Assorted bits of kit.

This list is subject to change, but I doubt it'll change much. The major issue will be how much kit they can fit; plastic minis are a bit weird to manufacture since you have to take into account plastic flow when laying out the sprue, which often limits what can be done. This is, from what I understand, the reason plastics used to have lower detail: have to maintain preasure meant it was difficult to ensure all the details would get filled in properly. That isn't as much of an issue anymore.

Oh, and I know I'm going to get in trouble for this but . . .

GERMANS!

Concept Art


Concept Art


Reference Image


The first two have been seen on Defiance's website (which should get sorted out any day now, but the other is exclusive (and I'm probably going to get yelled at, though technically they just said I wasn't allowed to show renders. Speaking of which, I've seen an early render of the legs and they will not be as skinny on the final model. The proportions will be different as well, but that's because of the heroic-scale nature of the minis.


I've also seen a similar reference image of the USMC Hardsuit and it's very, very, VERY nice. If you like the MaK suits you'll love it!

Aren't you worried that you are getting too close to the same designs that flyingdebris has already sold to other wargames companies?

The germans and the hardsuit are incredibly similar to the russians being produced by antenocetis.

BronzeYohn wrote:Aren't you worried that you are getting too close to the same designs that flyingdebris has already sold to other wargames companies?

The germans and the hardsuit are incredibly similar to the russians being produced by antenocetis.

Sorry it took me a while to respond; I actually have to find the Antenociti gallery on Deviantart to find the images you were talking about.


Are you talking about these designs?

Russians:






Take a look for yourself:

Defiance Game German (concept art by Alex Iglesias):


Defiance Games USMC Hardsuit (concept art by Alex Iglesias)

Construct wrote: Sadly, these guys seem to be carrying over all their old habits from Wargames Factory. In particular the distain for outside opinion, either openly on forums or under an NDA. If they continue as they have even the hardsuits might not be salvageable. So much wasted potential.

Really? Because I have found them to be very receptive to outside opinion.


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BronzeYohn wrote: The germans and the hardsuit are incredibly similar to the russians being produced by antenocetis.

There are similarities, yes. But there are some distinct differences, too.

When it comes down to it, there are only so many ways to build a power armor suit that humans can wear and operate comfortably. After all, most of us humans are within a relatively narrow range of size and proportions, with two legs, two arms and a single head. So a lot of designs will have similarities.

kristof65 wrote:

Construct wrote: Sadly, these guys seem to be carrying over all their old habits from Wargames Factory. In particular the distain for outside opinion, either openly on forums or under an NDA. If they continue as they have even the hardsuits might not be salvageable. So much wasted potential.

Really? Because I have found them to be very receptive to outside opinion.

I'm also going to have to greatly disagree with this, considering they completely scrapped a render for a full plastic kit due to the community not liking it, and based what kits they are releasing on a community survey, so in all honesty I don't think you could be further from the truth.

I am fairly well placed to be able to say that I dont consider there to be any Copyright issues here and I have let Tony @ Defiance Games know that.

Pretty much any armour fitted to a human being is going to have a large degree of overlap as design constraints mean it has to bend in the same places and protect those spaces inbetween. A medieval suit of armour will bear striking similarity to much sci-fi armour for this reason. Similarly a hard-suit, or "carapace" armour, will also share design elements which are enforced by the need to fit the human figure and the type of armour.

Alex (Flying Debris) is a great concept artist and pretty much all of his designs are excellent, yes there will be elemnts of similarity in design and style, but that does not constitue a copyright issue.

Jed Norton
Antenocitis Workshop.

--------------



I think that it would be only reasonable to allow Defiance Games a chance to get their product into the market-place before criticising them for events and practices at a different company.

People and companies deserve a chance to prove themselves and I think it would be only reasonable to let Defiance Games get their product out and judge them by that product, rather than raking over old ground that is not really pertinent to the new company and products.

We are ourselves considering stocking these figures and I would not put us in that position if i felt that the issues that bedeviled Wargames Factory were still evident.

Jed: I have never dealt with your company before, though I've seen and like your many of your products. Anyway, your thoughtful reply here just sent my estimation of your company soaring up a few notches.

Stepping in to quell rumoursand speculation shows class.

Echoing what Kristof said, kudos Jed and great attitude!

I know it's basically a sin to plug another company on a company's thread. Also, it's a mortal sin to suggest that you'll be using the figures from a company with a rule set to sub in for another game's figures. The fact of the matter is that a good portion of DFG's sales will be as IG stand ins. And no IG army would be caught dead without their beloved Leman Russ, but the GW vehicles would look terrible next to the USMC, the Panzergrenadiers, and anything else that DFG has been talking about releasing. Now, I'm sure that DFG will eventually release some vehicles, and fingers crossed, they'll be as interesting as everything else they've been showing off. However, in the meanwhile, it's basically useless to try and use GW tanks. But I've been looking alot at the Antenociti trucks. They look great and the price looks even better. I've been looking into it for some time now, but especially after hearing, or reading, what they had to say, I figure it's worth giving them a little press.

http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/hunchback-apc.html
http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/nrf-kabardin-apc.html
http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/nova-rus-bear-4x4-jeep.html
http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/warthog-scout-apc.html
http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/zebu-land-cruiser.html

Some other things I've seen are the Wheeled Chimera Conversion Kit from Chapter House Studios, which looks like it would work pretty good. Also, after seeing the Rapid Assault Vehicle from Secret Weapon, I know what will end up being my Leman Russ.

http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=67
http://www.secretweaponminiatures.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76&products_id=350

they have a scout vehicle called a warthog? *raises eyebrow*

at least it looks nothing like the halo one....

if they want to name something a warthog, fine, but at least make it something completely different from the iconic halo warthog. such as a tank.

Blackhoof wrote:if they want to name something a warthog, fine, but at least make it something completely different from the iconic halo warthog. such as a tank.

So you want to quibble that an APC is not tank enough for your liking and reminds you more of a large jeep?

Though I would like to see a company release an attack jeep under the name of a "Chupacabra"

it is still a scout vehicle- just an armoured one.

if it was a full-on combat vehicle i would not quibble.

Blackhoof wrote:i like the models. they arent as good as GW but very little is these days....

You need to have a look around the market a bit more mate

Personally I will probably wait to see how the Mantic Corporation troopers turn out (as well as seeing some more sculpts from these guys) before I decide on anything.

Blackhoof wrote:if they want to name something a warthog, fine, but at least make it something completely different from the iconic halo warthog.

Maybe and, once again I am a fairly reliable source in this, ( ) they named it after the animal and not a dinky little open-top jeep?

It is, after all, an MRAP, and not a jeep...and MRAP's are BIG:


A good name for a tank?: "Nyati". Warthogs arent exactly representative of aggressive killing-power after all...Nyati are... unstoppable .

I have some great tales about warthogs from my time in Zim, SA and various other african countries if you're ever very boar'd. (oh how bad is that pun?) Anything called a Warthog has to be ugly and have tusks though. Saying that, it is impossible to please everybody (especially wargamers) somebody once complained "Why did they name it after an aeroplane?"

Have you seen the Mk II Warthog? http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/news/2011/09/new-28mm-scout-vehicle-wip/


...somewhat sleeker but remains ugly with 'tusks' though!

(I may well not be around to answer any others Qs mind you - I was just here to check that any issue about the Defiance Games marines are quashed - have to get back to casting now!)

Also, a warthog is already a real minitary vehicle. Iconic or not, the name isn't exactly Bungie's property when it comes to naming military vehicles:

http://www.armyrecognition.com/united_kingdom_british_army_light_armoured_vehicle/warthog_all_terrain_protected_mobility_vehicle_technical_data_sheet_specificications_pictures.html

It's funny, I grew up in a little town called Defiance, OH and at first I thought someone there opened a game shop. That would never happen there.

Thats a cool name for a town.

kristof65 wrote:Really? Because I have found them to be very receptive to outside opinion.

They're open to outside *ideas* - largely, I suspect, because they're even now vague on how most of the factions will look and play beyond taking current stereotypes and throwing them 20-minutes into the future. They're not open to outside *feedback*.

winnertakesall wrote:I'm also going to have to greatly disagree with this, considering they completely scrapped a render for a full plastic kit due to the community not liking it, and based what kits they are releasing on a community survey, so in all honesty I don't think you could be further from the truth.

Renders produced well before any of the range was near production and to which even the yes-men said 'no'? Those renders?

And look at the Marines: Useless teaser pictures and then boom, we find the sprues have been finalised and the moulds are being cut even before the first clear pictures of the sculpts are out. So much for outside opinion. You know what? I take back what I said about them operating exactly like they did at WGF; at least WGF posts its renders - in the round, no less - and ignores the resultant feedback for *weeks* before its sprues are sent off for machining.

Yes, we were asked what we thought of the Valkyrie hardsuit - but given only a mean, rough sketch devoid of detail and loose with proportion. Useless. And now we've seen just how little relation the concept art bears to the final sculpt. That wasn't asking for feedback, it was just fishing for compliments.

As for internal opinion, just look at the render. It's sloppy, unfinished and ill-proportioned. Not 'stylised'. Not 'heroic'. Just lazy. And the kicker? Its flaws are easily fixed. It's not a hard-to-modify traditional sculpt being used to create a cheap rubber mould where it's acceptable to say 'Never mind, you'll nail it next time. I've always thought Cadians were too detailed and realistic anyway', it's an easily-changed CAD model being used to create an expensive injection mould. Why not make the effort to get it right? The yes-men are doing no one any favours.

Sure, the creators seem like nice guys - but they have the combined common sense of a turnip.

Construct wrote:
And look at the Marines: Useless teaser pictures and then boom, we find the sprues have been finalised and the moulds are being cut even before the first clear pictures of the sculpts are out. So much for outside opinion. You know what? I take back what I said about them operating exactly like they did at WGF; at least WGF posts its renders - in the round, no less - and ignores the resultant feedback for *weeks* before its sprues are sent off for machining.

Hilarious but somewhat true. At least with wgf there was a false sense of hope

I'd give Defiance the benefit of the doubt and let them actually release something before I started doomsaying.

In Defiance's defense, they at least took people's opinions of their bugs and made them more believable. They're no longer the awkward top-heavy Centaurs they used to be.
http://www.defiancegames.com/index.php/news/item/got-a-bug-problem




This is what they originally looked like:

They got much flack for it and changed it.

That bug looks pretty damn cool, and I really like that bare Marine head.

Intriguing, trying not to let optimism take over but this is definitely intriguing

I dont really like the gun (or at least how they modeled it), it's like it's trying to be both a normal LMG, and some type of larger overhand gun (like fictional miniguns)

Very nice, I'll be getting a few boxes of each. A table full of marines and bugs will look pretty damn hot I reckon.

Wow someone took my minds eye for the arachnids from the book version of starship troopers.

BUGS!!!!!

YEAHHH that is what i am talking about...

That is promissing, very promissing...

Love the bug and the marine, with a little work I think you could make some great smart guns, and some great colonial marines. Cant wait to see the germans

They look just like the concept art that was drawn up. EXCEPTIONAL!

How much and when?

Those bugs are very good.

The bug's forelimbs (i.e. Arms) look pretty goofy the rest of it aint too bad though.

If one Was going to make knock offs of a certain type of alien, why would you choose to make SST movie arachnid knock offs and not Geiger's alien knock offs?

The later done in this scale would sell themselves...

I love all the Aliens movies (even 3), but really SST is way better suited to selling lots of minis, as the scenes are way more evocative of a tabletop game. Big armies, fleets of spaceships, hordes of bugs, etc.

two words...Starship FU#@ING TROOPERS!!

Starship Troopers (the book) is also timeless ultra-classic sci-fi, and I definitely get an "old school" vibe from Defiance Games.

ChocolateGork wrote:two words...Starship FU#@ING TROOPERS!!

Yes I know, but Mongoose already did that and it died on the vine...

In fact that is part of my concern: the Mongoose SST models can be bought for pennies on the dollar now.

So anybody looking to recreate SST can do so fairly cheaply with what were once officially lisenced SST models.

However nobody has done multi-pose Geiger-esque aliens in this scale, and they are something that could be used for a variety of things: tyranid proxies in both standard armies and as kill teams, alt. models for space hulk, used with various sci-fi rules sets, etc. Not to mention that thy are something that even the average gamer/nerd/movie fan might buy even if they arent planning to game with them...

That's because it would cost a fortune to get the Aliens license.

Brother SRM wrote:That's because it would cost a fortune to get the Aliens license.

Notice I said "Geiger-esque" as in close but not the same. Hell, Chapter house gets away with it...

I've been wanting multi-pose plastic Aliens for a long time. I guess the closest thing we'll get are those stupid clix models, lol.

As for the Defiance Games bugs, I'm not really sure about them yet. It looks like the bases they're on are a little too small, and the poses aren't too hot: one's kinda just like "HUG ME!" in my opinion.

CT GAMER wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:That's because it would cost a fortune to get the Aliens license.

Notice I said "Geiger-esque" as in close but not the same. Hell, Chapter house gets away with it...

Whichever company owns the alien license is a hell of a load bigger than GW.

CT GAMER wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:That's because it would cost a fortune to get the Aliens license.

Notice I said "Geiger-esque" as in close but not the same. Hell, Chapter house gets away with it...

I wouldn't use Chapterhouse for any kind of positive example when talking about copyright, but I'd rather not let that discussion start here. I like the bugs they're showing here, and I'm interested where the range goes. I figure the multiple poses for them will come more from differently sculpted parts rather than properly posing them.

Absolutionis wrote:This is what they originally looked like:

Spoiler:

They got much flack for it and changed it.

Hahaha wow

Blackhoof wrote:they have a scout vehicle called a warthog? *raises eyebrow*

at least it looks nothing like the halo one....

if they want to name something a warthog, fine, but at least make it something completely different from the iconic halo warthog. such as a tank.

It kinda looks like a Puma.

Antenociti wrote:It is, after all, an MRAP, and not a jeep...and MRAP's are BIG:

Not really that much bigger than a Hummer, tbh. The wheels are huge (because the vehicle is heavy as feth) and the storage containers make it look bigger than it is. Inside it's about the same capacity as the HMMWV they're replacing (maybe less).


Also, I like the new bugs much better than the old ones. Definitely a substantial improvement. Although they remind me a lot of the old Starship Troopers bugs.

Sidstyler wrote:...the poses aren't too hot: one's kinda just like "HUG ME!" in my opinion.

I agree. My own suggestion was that instead of the clumsy two-handed flailing ice pick attack, they'd strike more like a boxer's jab or a praying mantis, with the limbs spearing out directly away from the body, and that they should do some posing sketches to work out just how they should move so they might look good.

Tony responded by saying they did do some posing sketches.

Those bugs look amazing. I'm definitley going to get some as bio titans for 6mm/epic scale stuff.

AlexHolker wrote:Tony responded by saying they did do some posing sketches.

Well, Diego did. Tim just ignored them.



I've critiqued his "improvements" over there. Still, it's not as far removed from its concept art as the Marines were, so I have some hope restored for the hardsuits.

Also, these guys will apparently have an intelligent, spacefaring "cousin race" down the line, so it looks like Defiance are having a bob each way on book vs movie SST bugs.

Just fix the marines' goddamned guns. if they don't know how guns work, what rails are for and what the little boxes and tubes that go on the rails do, just ask on a forum. Lots of people actually know where the bits on rails go. or how to make them look like they could actually work.

They're very close, but they're not there yet.

Sidstyler wrote:I've been wanting multi-pose plastic Aliens for a long time. I guess the closest thing we'll get are those stupid clix models, lol.

As for the Defiance Games bugs, I'm not really sure about them yet. It looks like the bases they're on are a little too small, and the poses aren't too hot: one's kinda just like "HUG ME!" in my opinion.

Maybe no Gieger aliens, but the game is called 'Alien Wars' for a reason.

AlexHolker wrote:I agree. My own suggestion was that instead of the clumsy two-handed flailing ice pick attack, they'd strike more like a boxer's jab or a praying mantis, with the limbs spearing out directly away from the body, and that they should do some posing sketches to work out just how they should move so they might look good.

Tony responded by saying they did do some posing sketches.

Sure doesn't look like it, does it? These are embarrassingly bad. It's not 1995 anymore, guys!

Brother SRM wrote:I figure the multiple poses for them will come more from differently sculpted parts rather than properly posing them.

Nope. The legs, arms, and the joint between the upper and lower body are all ball-jointed, so they'll all be individually poseable. I specifically asked Tony about that a while back.

Though, for the record, I actually think the assembly will be rather fiddly, but on the other hand it'll let me do "mass of flailing, sharp, pointy limbs" and that's definitely a good thing in my book!

Personally, I'm going to have to come on the side of Alex and say I'd rather have jabby looking arms, but then I don't know if the arms above are representative of all the arm pieces that will be included.


As a side note, regarding the tactical rails on the rifles:

I'm not certain of all the accessories will be included on the Marine sprue, though I do know that it will contain a backpack and ammo pouches. However, the Heavy Weapon sets to be released later will included far more accessories. I'll make sure to bring it up the topic of assorted gun optics on the discussion group. However, please keep in mind that I am NOT a Defiance employee so my word doesn';t carry any weight beyond my own ability to whine loudly

Though, for the record, in the fluff (and in the game rules) USMC helmets DO include C&C gear and optics, so I'm going to hazard a guess that basic weapon sights are part of the package, probably tied into a sensor on the gun itself. The rails, then, would be for mounting specialized sights that do things not included in the standard optics package.

Speaking of which, I should probably bring this up to the writers to make sure they include the distinction between high tech forces and low-tech in terms of optics. Your bog-standard high tech soldier in the Alien War universe will have all the fancy imaging gear, but this won't necessarily apply to insurgents or the poor, hapless Chinese conscipts.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:I agree. My own suggestion was that instead of the clumsy two-handed flailing ice pick attack, they'd strike more like a boxer's jab or a praying mantis, with the limbs spearing out directly away from the body, and that they should do some posing sketches to work out just how they should move so they might look good.

Tony responded by saying they did do some posing sketches.

Sure doesn't look like it, does it? These are embarrassingly bad. It's not 1995 anymore, guys!

They are? They actually look very good to me. I don't see any reason why anyone should be embarrassed by these models.

I just found an interesting picture that might have some connection for Defiance Games.
http://sttheo.deviantart.com/art/Helldiver-APU-212830845?q=gallery%3Asttheo%2F3792282&qo=6