Might not be 'Because of the Codex' but because of RGs plan.

As i mentioned previously... RG has a plan, and in the aftermath of the heresy he wants to lead, hence the codex and my opinion of it crippling his rivals, in particular Dorn.

Prior to the heresy... who knows what he was thinking. He was drilling his troops to have leadership roles, i have a suspician that he would try and distance Ultramar from the Imperium.

 Eetion wrote:
Might not be 'Because of the Codex' but because of RGs plan.

As i mentioned previously... RG has a plan, and in the aftermath of the heresy he wants to lead, hence the codex and my opinion of it crippling his rivals, in particular Dorn.

Prior to the heresy... who knows what he was thinking. He was drilling his troops to have leadership roles, i have a suspician that he would try and distance Ultramar from the Imperium.

We’ll have to wait for Abnett’s new HH book ‘Unremembered Empire’ to find out I guess.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
He was preparing for the war after the Heresy. One of his men asked why he was doing it and ... okay I just looked it up.

One of his men asked about it and he told his men that his men had to be prepared to be traitors.

"I have a plan, yes, amd it is a dangerous one...when that time comes you will be called traitors...I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium" Rules of Engagment found in the book "Age of Darkness"

So were in the story does it say again he want to kill the salamanders? :3

I too have also read Rules of Engagement and I don’t see were in the book he says they might have to fight other marines because of the codex.

I just quoted the section. He is talking about the codex and he is commenting that his men need to be prepared to fight the loyal warriors of the Imperium. It is on the last page of the story if you want to read it yourself. Also I didnt mean to say he wanted to fight them. Just that he was preparing his men to kill Salamanders as we see in the training exercise before the last one.


That that IS what happens. Remember after the Heresy the Ultarmarines and the Imperial Fist almost go to war with each other for that very issue. I believe Imperial Navel units loyal to the UM even engage Navy units loyal to the IF at one point in time. The reason war is avoided is because Dorn stands up and says that he relents his authority to Guilliman.

 Galdos wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
He was preparing for the war after the Heresy. One of his men asked why he was doing it and ... okay I just looked it up.

One of his men asked about it and he told his men that his men had to be prepared to be traitors.

"I have a plan, yes, amd it is a dangerous one...when that time comes you will be called traitors...I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium" Rules of Engagment found in the book "Age of Darkness"

So were in the story does it say again he want to kill the salamanders? :3

I too have also read Rules of Engagement and I don’t see were in the book he says they might have to fight other marines because of the codex.

I just quoted the section. He is talking about the codex and he is commenting that his men need to be prepared to fight the loyal warriors of the Imperium. It is on the last page of the story if you want to read it yourself. Also I didnt mean to say he wanted to fight them. Just that he was preparing his men to kill Salamanders as we see in the training exercise before the last one.

You are probably right about that. It’s been awhile since the last time I read that story anyway.

 Galdos wrote:
That that IS what happens. Remember after the Heresy the Ultarmarines and the Imperial Fist almost go to war with each other for that very issue. I believe Imperial Navel units loyal to the UM even engage Navy units loyal to the IF at one point in time. The reason war is avoided is because Dorn stands up and says that he relents his authority to Guilliman.

Yeah, in the end Dorn opted to follow common sense. I knew you had it in ya boy!

I had to pull the book out to remember. I didnt care much for the story so I didnt remember it all that well

Far be it for I to defend a marine, never mind a primarch, buuuut...

... Mr. Rowboat looks like, in that fluff instance cited, he is merely preparing for the worst, not that he WANTS to fight the other marines, but that he believes that it might happen so they need to be ready-- just in case. It's standard military planning.

Yet in knf we see a sergeant bring censured for his theories.

Dorn was the better man in that he stood down rather than face another civil war. It says more about RG that he didn't.

oh great. Choose between the most boring and the most useless. what a choice. i guess dorn. at least he does not follow a book for all strategies to use in war, seems like a calmer more peaceful place.

honestly i would prefer corax. Strike and fade, be a constant harasser.

 Eetion wrote:
Yet in knf we see a sergeant bring censured for his theories.

Dorn was the better man in that he stood down rather than face another civil war. It says more about RG that he didn't.

But still, dude changed his mind completely...I'mean why and how ? How can you relent and change your mind completely ? Some heavy emo stuff IMHO....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Yet in knf we see a sergeant bring censured for his theories.

Dorn was the better man in that he stood down rather than face another civil war. It says more about RG that he didn't.

But still, dude changed his mind completely...I'mean why and how ? How can you relent and change your mind completely ? Some heavy emo stuff IMHO....

It’s crystal clear Marko. Dorn just could not compete with the genius of Guilliman, and had to bow out of their little scuffle.

That’s just how the universe works. No one beats Guilliman’s writing pen of goodness and sweet glory, PERIOD.

^ Ty for that ....I'm going to whip myself now (you know, purging through pain and all that) and repent OFC....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Yet in knf we see a sergeant bring censured for his theories.

Dorn was the better man in that he stood down rather than face another civil war. It says more about RG that he didn't.

But still, dude changed his mind completely...I'mean why and how ? How can you relent and change your mind completely ? Some heavy emo stuff IMHO....

Because Rogal Dorn is an unstable, psychotic psychopath of a man.

Which is why I would follow him, as opposed to Guilliman.

But let's say he was all that...I'm still waiting for BL to explain some things....

Anti codex ****then void***** silver medal in following codex, oooo hey Templars are anti codex you know....

This had to be something with Dorn having a major paranoid - schizophrenia chops or maybe even a dual personality disorder...Poor dude...

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ Ty for that ....I'm going to whip myself now (you know, purging through pain and all that) and repent OFC....

Yes Marko... Whip it good. i'll just sit outside your window and watch you do it

And Dorn will also be watching you do it. You know, for all the BDSM and stuff.

 Melissia wrote:
Far be it for I to defend a marine, never mind a primarch, buuuut...

... Mr. Rowboat looks like, in that fluff instance cited, he is merely preparing for the worst, not that he WANTS to fight the other marines, but that he believes that it might happen so they need to be ready-- just in case. It's standard military planning.

That is true. Everything about what you said is true except that last part.

It is never standard military planning to plan for a military take over of your own government and installing your General as the new leader of the country.

What he pretty much does is (ill use the American Civil War for example) General Grant, the commander of the Western armies of the Union, is not only training his men to fight the Confederacy, but also how to fight and kill the Union armies in the East so if needed, he can march on Washington, kill his fellow Union soldiers, and name himself the new President of a new nation with a new name.

 Galdos wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Far be it for I to defend a marine, never mind a primarch, buuuut...

... Mr. Rowboat looks like, in that fluff instance cited, he is merely preparing for the worst, not that he WANTS to fight the other marines, but that he believes that it might happen so they need to be ready-- just in case. It's standard military planning.

That is true. Everything about what you said is true except that last part.

It is never standard military planning to plan for a military take over of your own government and installing your General as the new leader of the country.

What he pretty much does is (ill use the American Civil War for example) General Grant, the commander of the Western armies of the Union, is not only training his men to fight the Confederacy, but also how to fight and kill the Union armies in the East so if needed, he can march on Washington, kill his fellow Union soldiers, and name himself the new President of a new nation with a new name.

There is something else to it than just military planning, for sure.
But Rules of Engagement only gave us a very vague and incomplete impression of what Gulliman has in store for the imperium. So hold your guns until Abnett’s new HH book is out.

It kinda plays to the facts of Guilliman's absolute control freak tendencies, that he would prepare for every eventuality, including the potential conflict with other primarchs ideas on how to reorganize the imperium after the HH.

And taking that into mind, he would weigh the know facts and strengths of his enemies as well as allies (seeing as to not so long ago all the primarchs were buddies, and that sundering has led to the most bloody conflict in human history.)

And seeing that the almost death? of the emperor has left him (the Emp ) completely out of the loop for any ability to reign in his remaining primarchs bickering or infighting.

And adding the fact that Dorn has fought a cataclysmic conflict, where his emperor has fallen to the point of being interred in a life support system (and is likely blaming himself for every misstep and mistake)

So..taking all this in, ole Guilliman, would be kinda silly not to plan for the potential of yet another brother primarch going rogue..since it has happened more than a few times in recent history.

I think ole big blue was planning for the future, but prepared for the short term, is it kind of a dickish thing to do..sure, but warfare and its aftermath is not a walk in the park.

After the events of the HH, I think the trust of each primarch in his fellows was shaken to its core, even if they would not admit it aloud.

just my interpretation at any rate.

Um guys. The story that I was talking about occurs BEFORE the Battle of Terra.


As in the Emperor is still a okay.


He is talking about seizing control for himself even if the loyalist win. And he does. It is only be Dorn refused to fire on fellow loyalist did a second civil war occur.


He was preparing for anything. His plans still meant treason. He even told his men that HE would be the renegade, not Dorn/Vulkan/etc.

In which case , its yet another reason to never again trust a primarch with any level of authority, as it seems even the supposed best of them will have treason at his heart, if he feels its best.

I think I liked it better when the HH was just mythology of 40k and not all the detail they are slathering on it now.

I've got a question that I've never understood. Maybe ya'll can explain it. I don't understand how the chapters are less effective than the legions. There were still the same number of marines, I don't understand why spreading them out made them less effective. According to what we know about the expansion of the Imperium the legions would often split into smaller fleets to conquer planets, how is this different than a chapter? Also, it seems that at this point in the Imperium the chapters are constantly playing defense, how would having legions make the number of enemies the Imperium has and how often they attack any different? I guess I just don't think there would be any difference if the marines were still legions.

Darthslowe wrote:
I've got a question that I've never understood. Maybe ya'll can explain it. I don't understand how the chapters are less effective than the legions. There were still the same number of marines, I don't understand why spreading them out made them less effective. According to what we know about the expansion of the Imperium the legions would often split into smaller fleets to conquer planets, how is this different than a chapter? Also, it seems that at this point in the Imperium the chapters are constantly playing defense, how would having legions make the number of enemies the Imperium has and how often they attack any different? I guess I just don't think there would be any difference if the marines were still legions.

It is all about unity of command. Ill use my earlier example again.

A legion is like the US Army, Navy, Marines, rolled into one force, that being the US Military.

However the Imperium when defended by chapters is more like The US Army, Navy, Marines, and Brit Army, Navy, Marines, and France Army, Navy, Marines, and Germany Army, Navy, Marines, all rolled into one force, the Allied High Command.

What is the problem? organization. The US wants the US general calling the shots while the US does the spear head while the French want a French General with the French as a spearhead etc etc... And then the US doesnt want to listen to the French General and the French wont listen to a US general etc etc...

You see the issue? Legions are easier to work with and that means more effective at defense

I think the codex astartes has worked. But i still believe that with better screening and indoctrination we could have more pious space marines able to resist the temptations of the warp. The dark angels undergo very intense screening and monitoring to ensure they are pure. Following this premise i believe it is possble to have out legions once more. As many seem to focus on the chaos space marine threat, all I might say is that; this will be a ever present threat in the 40k universe and until there is a way to eradicate the existing chaos space marines..... Call it simple minded but legions of marines should be able to do this task.
I don't like to think that we're following in the footsteps of the eldars empire....
Long live the legions!!!

The codex astartes is clearly out dated. Think about it when it was written they never seen a necron, or tau or tyranid. Before you argue with that, nids weren't even in the universe yet, necrons haven't awakened yet. Would you listen to a book on how to fight in the modern world, if the book only covered say.. confederate rebels and native Americans?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
He didn't say it like that.

But he did. When asked why he was leaving, he refused to tell them and told them to worry about the Great Crusade.

The way you phrased it is what I mean that he didn't say it like that. And he was correct. They had the GC to worry about and finish.

Angron and Curze were indeed not salvageable at that point, though in the case of Angron, it required the Emperor doing more dumbshit to make his betrayal possible, but we'll get into that at another time. And in the case of Curze, it is mostly Fulgrim being two-faced and Dorn being a frothing psychopath that pushed him to betray, though in his case, it might indeed have always been inevitable. As for Mortarion, that wasn't the only reason. Mortarion, at the end of the day, felt more loyal to Horus, than he did the Emperor. Horus' betrayal made Mortarion's possible. Oh, and Emperor leaving further cemented in Angron's mind that he was a coward, who relied on others to shed the blood he was not willing to.

As I said, Angron already hated the Emp, the Emp leaving or not is irrelevant. Also, what the hell is Angron thinking? The Emp fought the crusade for a long time before he left cause he had other stuff to do like how Roman emperors or such who fought on the front of the wars would leave cause they have other stuff to do.

Horus fell cause of Chaos manipulation and an apparent lust for power.

Mortarion fell cause he resented the Emp and thus was susceptible

.

What of Fulgrim? The Emperor leaving them did indeed play a part in his betrayal, as did admittedly a talking sword, lol. And like before, it was Horus who had to convince him, before that he did not consider it, even with the talking sword.

I truly have no idea what the hell is going on with Fulgrim.

Magnus? Wasn't really hurt by daddy leaving, but telling him of the project he was integral to would have been a big help towards saving the Webway in future events.

Nope. If Magnus had simply obeyed the Emp's orders to stop his sorcery. The events of the Webway breaking would not needed to have happened.

Perturabo, eh, I haven't read Angel Exterminatus, but prior to that he betrayed the Imperium because he was a sinister sociopath who sort of hated everyone. Though, like Mortarion, Horus' betrayal did make Perturabo's possible.

Perturabo's fall is cause of resentment hat was possibly inflamed by Horus and then his killing of his planet.

So even if Horus was the most affected by daddy leaving without telling why (Though I'd argue the Emperor not telling Magnus eventually proved to be the most dire mistake), since so many of the traitors required Horus to make their betrayals possible, it still contributed to the Heresy.

I disagree with the bold. Also, I'm talking about the leaving actually making them rebel which is only for Horus. The rest was cause of other reasons. The Emp leaving was simply giving the traitors the opportunity they needed to recruit more members.

Because other than the Emperor and maybe Malcador, the Primarchs are the highest-ranking, and most important people in the Imperium.

So? I still don't see why they need to know.

Why is it restricted though? Stop dancing around my question. Why shouldn't the Emperor have told them?

The Primarchs were lightyears away.

How would they interfere with the project? Only Magnus could manage that. By blowing a hole in it, lol.

Grouping these two quotes together.

I'm not dancing anything. I'm simply posting the point of why does he need to tell them.

The Primarchs being lightyears away is good thing why not to tell them cause they are no longer under his direct watch. They could be doing anything when he's not looking like tell the Cabal about his plans or maybe the info accidentally gets leaked out and his found out by Eldar who will do anything they can to destroy the Webway project.

So what you're saying is that trusting potential traitors with the most powerful military force in the galaxy is fine, but trusting them with the knowledge that the Emperor was trying to improve space travel would be too risky?

Yes. Just look at the Alpha legion for an example of why.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
The codex astartes is clearly out dated. Think about it when it was written they never seen a necron, or tau or tyranid. Before you argue with that, nids weren't even in the universe yet, necrons haven't awakened yet. Would you listen to a book on how to fight in the modern world, if the book only covered say.. confederate rebels and native Americans?

Can you find any examples of the codex being outdated in the fluff?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
The codex astartes is clearly out dated. Think about it when it was written they never seen a necron, or tau or tyranid. Before you argue with that, nids weren't even in the universe yet, necrons haven't awakened yet. Would you listen to a book on how to fight in the modern world, if the book only covered say.. confederate rebels and native Americans?

Can you find any examples of the codex being outdated in the fluff?

Yeah, when Calgar had to go above the Codex as a result of the Tyranid onslaught.

I do not believe the Codex is what has 'created 10,000 years of less revolt' moreso than The Imperium is becoming lesser and lesser of a threat in the overall scope of galactic affairs.

Add to the fact that, simply speaking, trying to use the same tactic twice on an enemy is dooming yourself to failure. Open revolt isn't what will weaken the Imperium, it would just solidify Man's resolve.

The Tyranids and Necrons looming on the horizon are more threatening than the severely weakened Imperium of Man...so why waste Chaos Marines against the Imperium when more and more leave their side without 'open revolt'?

IMO, the failing of the Imperium has already begun with a strategy unlike one that has failed in the past.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I do not believe the Codex is what has 'created 10,000 years of less revolt' moreso than The Imperium is becoming lesser and lesser of a threat in the overall scope of galactic affairs.

Add to the fact that, simply speaking, trying to use the same tactic twice on an enemy is dooming yourself to failure. Open revolt isn't what will weaken the Imperium, it would just solidify Man's resolve.

The Tyranids and Necrons looming on the horizon are more threatening than the severely weakened Imperium of Man...so why waste Chaos Marines against the Imperium when more and more leave their side without 'open revolt'?

IMO, the failing of the Imperium has already begun with a strategy unlike one that has failed in the past.

The Imperium still rules the galaxy however. The main threats to the galaxy are the Nids, Necrons and Chaos(cause if Chaos wins, everyone can kiss themselves goodbye).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
The codex astartes is clearly out dated. Think about it when it was written they never seen a necron, or tau or tyranid. Before you argue with that, nids weren't even in the universe yet, necrons haven't awakened yet. Would you listen to a book on how to fight in the modern world, if the book only covered say.. confederate rebels and native Americans?

Can you find any examples of the codex being outdated in the fluff?

Yeah, when Calgar had to go above the Codex as a result of the Tyranid onslaught.

And after the tyranids had been dealt with, what happened then with codex?
Something happened to it, can you tell me what it was?

Yes disagreement between the tyrranic warveterans wanting ammendments and others wanting it to stay 'pure'.

To this day the tyrranic war veterans remains a point of contention.

Its basicly a guide, but somewhere along the way that has been lost.

Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,
Knowledge of chaos, oversight by chaplains, librarians and apothecaries to ensure pure and effective screening, all now utilised after the Legions.
The question is is it these screening patterns or the codex that is mainly responsible for the reduction in traitors.

 Eetion wrote:
Yes disagreement between the tyrranic warveterans wanting ammendments and others wanting it to stay 'pure'.

To this day the tyrranic war veterans remains a point of contention.

Its basicly a guide, but somewhere along the way that has been lost.

Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,
Knowledge of chaos, oversight by chaplains, librarians and apothecaries to ensure pure and effective screening, all now utilised after the Legions.
The question is is it these screening patterns or the codex that is mainly responsible for the reduction in traitors.

I would say both. Careful screening of the candidates helps minimize the change of corruption, while the codex prevents any chapters from massing too much power for themselves.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Yes disagreement between the tyrranic warveterans wanting ammendments and others wanting it to stay 'pure'.

To this day the tyrranic war veterans remains a point of contention.

Its basicly a guide, but somewhere along the way that has been lost.

Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,
Knowledge of chaos, oversight by chaplains, librarians and apothecaries to ensure pure and effective screening, all now utilised after the Legions.
The question is is it these screening patterns or the codex that is mainly responsible for the reduction in traitors.

I would say both. Careful screening of the candidates helps minimize the change of corruption, while the codex prevents any chapters from massing too much power for themselves.

But also makes each of the autonomus units operating without oversight. If Chapter Master X becomes tainted, he is the top dog, no one is monitoring him, he may lead his chapter from the imperium, or break with a small portion, or even destroy itslef with infighting. By being in Legion with proper controls and checks, he is accountable to more than just himself, his Peers will no doubt watch each other for failings, and indeed that 'small cog in a big machine' attitude may prevent some masters falling due to inflated ego.

Of course this does pose a risk of infecting beyond the chapter, but it is not without its faillings, that lack of supervision by their peers and a risk of developing a God Complex.

I stand by my claim that a Legion is a more adaptable force able to deploy nessacery troops to meet the threat.
The changes needed was one should be how the Legions were supervised and observed, not their decimation.

But as I said, I have a suspician that RGs changes were politically motivated aimed at securing his own influence over the fledgling Imperium, to ensure his troops or those loyal to him (and lets not forget the 2nd founding were Ultramarines in everything but name) remained the numerically superior force. What the codex immediately did in the aftermath, was severly hamper any growth of his fellow Primarchs Legions after their decimation... Fists Blood ngels, White Scars, on Terra, DA to unknown accident Raven Guard, Salamanders, Ironhands at Istvaan yes i know the IH veteran companies were small advance force but something must have happened as few successor chapters, and Wolves were no longer numerous)

I one swoop he ensured that roughly half of all space marines in the Imperium would be loyal to him stopping his brother Legions from increasing their numbers to roughly preheresy levels 700'000 other marines to 250'000 ultras.

In one book, he crippled the Imperiums Legions, so no longer could the stand against a serious threat, and ensured his influence on the newly formed Imperium.

 Eetion wrote:
But also makes each of the autonomus units operating without oversight. If Chapter Master X becomes tainted, he is the top dog, no one is monitoring him, he may lead his chapter from the imperium, or break with a small portion, or even destroy itslef with infighting. By being in Legion with proper controls and checks, he is accountable to more than just himself, his Peers will no doubt watch each other for failings, and indeed that 'small cog in a big machine' attitude may prevent some masters falling due to inflated ego.

Of course this does pose a risk of infecting beyond the chapter, but it is not without its faillings, that lack of supervision by their peers and a risk of developing a God Complex.

I stand by my claim that a Legion is a more adaptable force able to deploy nessacery troops to meet the threat.
The changes needed was one should be how the Legions were supervised and observed, not their decimation.

I don’t really care how SM is most effectively run with regards to chapter/legion. What matters to me is how the codex managed to drastically reduce the vast power the legions originally held.

Your apparent trust in the Astarte’s loyalty to the imperium is very touching and all, but I personally would not risk placing the safety of the imperium in the hands of distant warrior monks, who claims fealty only to the emperor himself. Speaking of which, that guy has not been around for some time, so who is going to rein in all those many super soldiers running around the galaxy? How does one give commands to a whole legion of space marines?

There simply is no way you can keep control of such a force. So instead you just divide the legions into tiny, controllable pieces, which the codex did a splendid job with, I might add.

 Eetion wrote:
But as I said, I have a suspician that RGs changes were politically motivated aimed at securing his own influence over the fledgling Imperium, to ensure his troops or those loyal to him (and lets not forget the 2nd founding were Ultramarines in everything but name) remained the numerically superior force. What the codex immediately did in the aftermath, was severly hamper any growth of his fellow Primarchs Legions after their decimation... Fists Blood ngels, White Scars, on Terra, DA to unknown accident Raven Guard, Salamanders, Ironhands at Istvaan yes i know the IH veteran companies were small advance force but something must have happened as few successor chapters, and Wolves were no longer numerous)

I one swoop he ensured that roughly half of all space marines in the Imperium would be loyal to him stopping his brother Legions from increasing their numbers to roughly preheresy levels 700'000 other marines to 250'000 ultras.

In one book, he crippled the Imperiums Legions, so no longer could the stand against a serious threat, and ensured his influence on the newly formed Imperium.

Aah, don’t tease me like that. Now I really want to read a book about Guilliman going all mastermind mode on the imperium and playing the puppeteer behind the shadows.

He may not even have knowingly intended the way it is. It may be something as simple as distrusting all his Brothers and only his own sons. It may be something more calculated.
But it does show he was planning Imperium secundus prior to the Heresy. That does show pre meditation on change and how its HIS change with no input from Malcador the Emperor or his brothers.

There's something suspicious about that while the war is yet to truly start.


As for how you control Legions, that should have been a matter to examine and not their breaking.
The Ironhands had lost Ferrus, the BA had lost Sangy, and the DA had 'lost" Lionel. It was a relevant issue to consider. One which Guilleman could have examined.

For example Chapter Masters, the Tetrachs, the mournival, quite a few chapters had nay sayers, it would not have been a hard job for a council, the task distributed amongst them whilst maintaining the checks of peer oversight.

As it is he instituted a system of these 'gods' be left to their own devices, without oversight. So what he effectively did was reduce the chances of major forces turning to chaos and rebelling spreading. What the codex did not do was ensuring individuals in charge were less likely to turn. He simply negated the maximum damage they could do.

Yet one to his benefit at the expense of his brothers. Had fulgrim not intervened, what would have been his next move?

Ironically, despite all the arguments against the legion system, the poll clearly shows more people favor it over the Codex system.

Argumentum ad populum is popular here.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Argumentum ad populum is popular here.

True, but its such a shame that 40k is not a democracy, because if it were, the legion system would be upheld. After all, in a real life situation, Congress/Parliament would not adopt a Codex-equivalent simply because the masses would politically hang them for it. What do you know; democracy is useful after all

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Argumentum ad populum is popular here.

True, but its such a shame that 40k is not a democracy, because if it were, the legion system would be upheld. After all, in a real life situation, Congress/Parliament would not adopt a Codex-equivalent simply because the masses would politically hang them for it. What do you know; democracy is useful after all

Are you talking about a democratic voting in-universe, or as in the fluff being altered to appease 40k fan community?

The legion system would most definitely not have been upheld, if it came down to a democratic vote.
Dorn only had the backing of two of his brothers, while Guilliman had Corax, Khan and the entire bunch of the High lords of Terra behind him.
Since the high lords are the ruling body of the imperium, then the imperium too will follow in line and take the same stance as Roboute, hence why imperial ships shot at Dorn’s fleet and not Guilliman’s.

Dorn never had a chance at winning anything, and with time he too, more or less saw the wisdom in Guilliman’s plan anyway.

Besides, at that timeline the legions had already made mankind suffer greatly. The Imperium would most certainly never trust the Astartes with that kind of power ever again.

Only reason Dorn relented is because he saw enough of brothers fighting brothers, and didn't want another civil war if it could be avoided. Says right in the BT codex fluff. Not because he saw wisdom in his control freak brother's codex, hence why the BTs are considered a non-codex chapter, also why they have so many numbers the high lords of terra can't track and count them.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Only reason Dorn relented is because he saw enough of brothers fighting brothers, and didn't want another civil war if it could be avoided. Says right in the BT codex fluff. Not because he saw wisdom in his control freak brother's codex, hence why the BTs are considered a non-codex chapter, also why they have so many numbers the high lords of terra can't track and count them.

What does it matter what the Black Templars think? They were founded by the cast out Sigismund, a man corrupted by his own need for self-preservation.
It’s no surprise that they are so opposed to the codex, when you take into account what kind of man he was.

Dorn stayed with the imperial Fists, who in turn embraced the codex fully (under Dorn’s supervision).
That says a lot more about Dorn stance towards the codex, than the BTs own tall tales

Yet the Black Templars get gak done. So, I say we go with the group that actually does something useful.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Yet the Black Templars get gak done. So, I say we go with the group that actually does something useful.

Sure. I never claimed otherwise.

 Redcruisair wrote:

Dorn stayed with the imperial Fists, who in turn embraced the codex fully (under Dorn’s supervision).
That says a lot more about Dorn stance towards the codex, than the BTs own tall tales

Dorn appeared to embrace the codex fully, but he was initially against it. he caved in only when it became clear that he was courting a second civil war, one which the ultra marines would have won since they did not participate in the heresy, and the imperial fists had suffered heavy casualties.

You should also note, that there are 3 main Successor chapters to the Imperial fists, the imperial fists themselves, the crimson fists, and the Black Templars. With the exception of the crimson fists (and them until recently), all 3 successor chapters are/were space based, that is to say, since they have no fixed homeworld (terra being the 'official' homeworld of the IF's) it is impossible to know just how many imperial fists, or black templars there are. The black templars are quite obviously not a codex chapter, but who is to say the imperial fists don't massively outnumber them? who would know?

 Redcruisair wrote:
They were founded by the cast out Sigismund, a man corrupted by his own need for self-preservation.
It’s no surprise that they are so opposed to the codex, when you take into account what kind of man he was.

Dorn stayed with the imperial Fists, who in turn embraced the codex fully (under Dorn’s supervision).
That says a lot more about Dorn stance towards the codex, than the BTs own tall tales

Would they not have been founded by Dorn who chose Sigismund to lead the Templars?

I get where you are coming from in regards to Sigismunds self preservation; but is that the actual case though? I'm not sure if this was for self preservation or more fear of not being remembered, I would go with the later. Either seem very shallow reasons and I would not expect either from Sigismund personally.

We also do not know the whole story yet, we have Dorns reprimand and apparent outcasting of Sigismund, but then we have him being elected the Emperor Champion by Dorn. Possibly Dorn made Sigismund Champion so he could die in battle and cleanse himself of the wrong doing that Dorn deemed he had done.

madtankbloke wrote:
Dorn appeared to embrace the codex fully, but he was initially against it. he caved in only when it became clear that he was courting a second civil war.

Dorn was against the codex because he had a hard time giving up the ideas of the crusade.
The legion was the last memory Dorn had of the good old times and Guilliman wanting to take that away from him, of course, did not sit well with the man in yellow.

There wasn’t really any logical reason for his refusal of the codex.
Dorn was grieving over the loss of his father, and he led his emotion cloud his judgement.

He embraced the codex fully once he was out of his depression.

madtankbloke wrote:
one which the ultra marines would have won since they did not participate in the heresy, and the imperial fists had suffered heavy casualties..

Stop right here. Claiming that Ultramarines got through the war even relatively unharmed is a god damn fallacy and you know it.

madtankbloke wrote:
The black templars are quite obviously not a codex chapter, but who is to say the imperial fists don't massively outnumber them? who would know?

I think you should post some evidence along with your nonsensical speculations. That would be very nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Would they not have been founded by Dorn who chose Sigismund to lead the Templars?

I get where you are coming from in regards to Sigismunds self preservation; but is that the actual case though? I'm not sure if this was for self preservation or more fear of not being remembered, I would go with the later. Either seem very shallow reasons and I would not expect either from Sigismund personally.

We also do not know the whole story yet, we have Dorns reprimand and apparent outcasting of Sigismund, but then we have him being elected the Emperor Champion by Dorn. Possibly Dorn made Sigismund Champion so he could die in battle and cleanse himself of the wrong doing that Dorn deemed he had done.

Sigismund was guilty of being more concerned with seeking glory and personal remembrance, rather than fulfilling his duty to his Primarch and legion.
But as you have already said, there is more to the story between Dorn and Sigismund that we have not yet seen.

 Redcruisair wrote:

Sigismund was guilty of being more concerned with seeking glory and personal remembrance, rather than fulfilling his duty to his Primarch and legion.
But as you have already said, there is more to the story between Dorn and Sigismund that we have not yet seen.

This is certainly how it is coming across at the moment, but it just doesn't sit right.

Sigismund isn't Horus right

 Eetion wrote:
Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,

And who would the legions actually bother to listen to? They didn't listen to the Emperor, their fething father figure and the lord and commander of the entire Imperium, why would they listen to a mere human?

Might as well wish for sunshine and rainbows to guide everyone's path to victory.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

Sigismund was guilty of being more concerned with seeking glory and personal remembrance, rather than fulfilling his duty to his Primarch and legion.
But as you have already said, there is more to the story between Dorn and Sigismund that we have not yet seen.

This is certainly how it is coming across at the moment, but it just doesn't sit right.

Sigismund isn't Horus right

Could it be that the legendary founder of the Black Templars in all secret is a closet traitor?

Hmm, what a delicious thought.

Not traitor Sigismund just bent the rules.

 Melissia wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,

And who would the legions actually bother to listen to? They didn't listen to the Emperor, their fething father figure and the lord and commander of the entire Imperium, why would they listen to a mere human?

Actually I am pretty sure the loyal legions did listen to the Emperor.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,

And who would the legions actually bother to listen to? They didn't listen to the Emperor, their fething father figure and the lord and commander of the entire Imperium, why would they listen to a mere human?

Actually I am pretty sure the loyal legions did listen to the Emperor.

Agreed.

The Legions would have operated with oversight, this may have come from oversight, perhaps from their peers, perhaps the Inquistion with bodyguards from other legions.
But let's look at RGs answer to disobedience and not listening to orders. Make them all independent and autonomous with zero oversight from anyone. They can and do anything they like, he simply removed the requirement to listen for them.

As for a vote on the codex. Dorn was still off dragging iron warrio from the Imeprium, guilleman aquired his support without dorn being present or even aware their was a 'vote'. That is not a democratic vote. That its indicative of a much more deceptive and insidious form of government. This should have been dealt with after the securing of the imperium, not behind closed doors while the major player in terras defence and 'warmaster' was out doing his job. Had the proposal actually been debated with both sides present the result may not have been clear cut.

And yes dorn resigned, accepted the codex and stood down preventing another civil war. I have yet to read any accounts of RG going 'whoa whoa slow down, let's get round the table and see if we can reach a compromise or something, I'd value your input rogal' when the altercation happened.
It was his way, or thhe highway. Read into that to give you an insight into the kind of man he was.
So dorn reluctantly accepts the codex and almost branded a traitor and essentially forced into it. Capitulation or civil war. He will be monitored, constantly assessed to ensure compliiance. If he doesn't accept it whole heartedly then what risk to the recovering imperium. Forced compliance does not mean agreement.

Now we have a thgousand chapters with no oversight of any form whatsoever beyond what the chapter implements themselves and the gene seed tithe.

As I said rg pushed his influence with the codex, and it came at the expense of their capability.

Yes he likely isolated corruption, with the chapters but did nothing to ensure its prevention. That could have been achieved with the legions, and also been far easier to organise, oversee and monitor

 Eetion wrote:


As for a vote on the codex. Dorn was still off dragging iron warrio from the Imeprium, guilleman aquired his support without dorn being present or even aware their was a 'vote'.

Putting the Codex was never a vote. The High Lords of Terra, the rulers of the Imperium as the Emperor desired, ordered Guilliman to create the new system. As far as we know Guilliman didn't necessarily have anything to do with making it happen. He was just doing what he was told.

Now we have a thgousand chapters with no oversight of any form whatsoever beyond what the chapter implements themselves and the gene seed tithe.

What makes you think the Legions would allow such keen oversight? They're all brothers-in-arms, afterall. They would not be happy if there was constant attempts to examine them very closely. It's also unlikely that they'd be keen on letting others pass juidgement on their brothers and say "you might be tainted, time to be taken away\forbidden to stay in command". It would be very easy to accidently push the situation into Space Marines against the Inquisition (or whoever is supposed to be overseeing them).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Eetion wrote:


As for a vote on the codex. Dorn was still off dragging iron warrio from the Imeprium, guilleman aquired his support without dorn being present or even aware their was a 'vote'.

Putting the Codex was never a vote. The High Lords of Terra, the rulers of the Imperium as the Emperor desired, ordered Guilliman to create the new system. As far as we know Guilliman didn't necessarily have anything to do with making it happen. He was just doing what he was told.

Now we have a thgousand chapters with no oversight of any form whatsoever beyond what the chapter implements themselves and the gene seed tithe.

What makes you think the Legions would allow such keen oversight? They're all brothers-in-arms, afterall. They would not be happy if there was constant attempts to examine them very closely. It's also unlikely that they'd be keen on letting others pass juidgement on their brothers and say "you might be tainted, time to be taken away\forbidden to stay in command". It would be very easy to accidently push the situation into Space Marines against the Inquisition (or whoever is supposed to be overseeing them).

It's a stretch to suggest that Guilliman didn't have anything to do with the Codex. "Just doing what he was told" doesn't make sense.

Everything else you wrote is correct.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Eetion wrote:


As for a vote on the codex. Dorn was still off dragging iron warrio from the Imeprium, guilleman aquired his support without dorn being present or even aware their was a 'vote'.

Putting the Codex was never a vote. The High Lords of Terra, the rulers of the Imperium as the Emperor desired, ordered Guilliman to create the new system. As far as we know Guilliman didn't necessarily have anything to do with making it happen. He was just doing what he was told.

Now we have a thgousand chapters with no oversight of any form whatsoever beyond what the chapter implements themselves and the gene seed tithe.

What makes you think the Legions would allow such keen oversight? They're all brothers-in-arms, afterall. They would not be happy if there was constant attempts to examine them very closely. It's also unlikely that they'd be keen on letting others pass juidgement on their brothers and say "you might be tainted, time to be taken away\forbidden to stay in command". It would be very easy to accidently push the situation into Space Marines against the Inquisition (or whoever is supposed to be overseeing them).

Yet Guilleman made the changes regardless with no imput from his fellows. Just because a new system is requested does not mean decimation is required. Simply reassessment. seperation from army and navy... tasked as military units and not defacto overlords,

I dont think the Legions would have objected to supervison... i dont think any of them expected the events of the Heresy and Horus turning traitor. Oversight by their peers would have been accepted, they may have seconded troops to oversee other Legions, they may have autorised formation of a chapter with this specific purpose. But given the choice of decimation or oversight, they would not refuse the latter.


Right now thanks to Guillemans reforms, they have no oversight and lack the resources to respond to any significant threat without trusting another chapter responds, which is no guarantee as a Chapter Master has zero authority over another, no capacity to oversee another chapter, ensured his forces became the bulk of the new Chapters, hampering the other Legions from truly recovering.

RGs response to eigning in the Legions was to break them up into lesser effective formations, and allow them even more freedom than before. What he did was cripple the Imperiums best weapon, and in my opinion he did it to further his influence and ensured his forces became the bulk of the new Chapters, hampering the other Legions from truly recovering,

The high Lords may have tasked him with reorganising, but he was planning the Imperium Secundus long before that request, he had pushed his codex prior to the heresy and his tactics with the likes of Alpharius.

From the get go the man had a track record of trying to control his brothers, control, influence and persuade them to his cause. This wouldnt have been any different with the high lords. The Imperium is broken, and RG would be all to keen to take the lead in its reconstruction.

codex. smaller groups can accomplish much more tasks than 1 big group.

 Traejun wrote:

It's a stretch to suggest that Guilliman didn't have anything to do with the Codex. "Just doing what he was told" doesn't make sense.

I meant that I don't necessarily think he, for instance, pushed it through the High Lords of Terra. Regardless of him, the Legions would have been broken down (or at least, the High Lords would have tried to break them down).

Eetion wrote:Simply reassessment. seperation from army and navy... tasked as military units and not defacto overlords,

Perhaps. Either way, I doubt he had a choice about splitting up the Legions. It's not the sort of massive change that the High Lords would have overlooked. The High Lords were concerned about people, Space Marine or otherwise, holding too much power and turning against the Imperium. Keeping the Legions whole but dividing up the Imperial Army would have just made the Space Marines comparatively even more powerful. Decimation is the wrong word to use in my opinion. It implies that the 'excess' were killed. They weren't. They were merely organised into a different fighting structure.

I dont think the Legions would have objected to supervison... i dont think any of them expected the events of the Heresy and Horus turning traitor. Oversight by their peers would have been accepted, they may have seconded troops to oversee other Legions, they may have autorised formation of a chapter with this specific purpose. But given the choice of decimation or oversight, they would not refuse the latter.

It's the level of scrutiny you're talking about though. The level of power over them they're giving to someone else (who could well turn traitor themselves). Immediately following the Heresy, I suspect at least some of the Primarchs would have been angry about the suggestion of them being disloyal anyway. After the Primarchs were gone? Other Space Marines, especially a Chapter set up specifically for this sort of thing, would still have been outsiders. Not to mention they would likely be distrusted and shunned. They'd have to be present for years to detect Chaos corruption and even that's not necessarily enough. Look at the Custodes in 'The First Heretic'.

Right now thanks to Guillemans reforms, they have no oversight and lack the resources to respond to any significant threat without trusting another chapter responds, which is no guarantee as a Chapter Master has zero authority over another, no capacity to oversee another chapter, ensured his forces became the bulk of the new Chapters, hampering the other Legions from truly recovering.

The high Lords of Terra can give orders to Space Marine Chapters though, and Armageddon demonstrated that they can work together. However, it's not affordable to concentrate Legion-size strength Space Marines. They're already spread too thin. Using that many against a single threat loses other territory, so it would only be done in absolute emergencies (i.e. when the Beast attacked the Imperium).

The high Lords may have tasked him with reorganising, but he was planning the Imperium Secundus long before that request, he had pushed his codex prior to the heresy and his tactics with the likes of Alpharius.

We don't know why he was planning Imperium Secundus or what was actually meant by it. The Codex at that point was about strategy and tactics, not about dividing up the Legions. I'd imagine most if not all of the Primarchs discussed tactics. It would be common ground between all of them (well, maybe not Angron quite so much). As for the whole thing with Alpharius, Guilliman was right. Alpharius was wasting time and the manpower of a soon-to-be-made-compliant world just to prove he and his Legion were good at tactics. It was boasting, nothing more.

This wouldnt have been any different with the high lords. The Imperium is broken, and RG would be all to keen to take the lead in its reconstruction.

I'm unsure of how much he tried to control his brothers. You've got the Codex (which included tactics from the other Primarchs) and one disagreement with Alpharius, which was about him being inefficient (and if I recall correctly, Horus was the only (or one of the only) Primarchs to actually praise him for his handling of that battle). Sure, Guilliman probably would have been keen to lead the reconstruction. He was, after all, the most qualified of the Primarchs and likely anyone else left standing to reunite the Imperium. He was efficient, coolheaded, had prior experience with running an empire and was a superb strategist and logistics expert. Frankly, he was the best man for the job at that time and as far as we know he never tried to seize power.

As for Guilliman manipulating the situation to ensure his geneseed was the most used, he had little way of knowing that it would actually be used that much. Presumably it was only after the Horus Heresy that the Dark Angels started to be less trusted and so their geneseed used less often.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,

And who would the legions actually bother to listen to? They didn't listen to the Emperor, their fething father figure and the lord and commander of the entire Imperium, why would they listen to a mere human?

Actually I am pretty sure the loyal legions did listen to the Emperor.

Occasionally, yes.

Almost always actually.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Traejun wrote:

It's a stretch to suggest that Guilliman didn't have anything to do with the Codex. "Just doing what he was told" doesn't make sense.

I meant that I don't necessarily think he, for instance, pushed it through the High Lords of Terra. Regardless of him, the Legions would have been broken down (or at least, the High Lords would have tried to break them down).

Eetion wrote:Simply reassessment. seperation from army and navy... tasked as military units and not defacto overlords,

Perhaps. Either way, I doubt he had a choice about splitting up the Legions. It's not the sort of massive change that the High Lords would have overlooked. The High Lords were concerned about people, Space Marine or otherwise, holding too much power and turning against the Imperium. Keeping the Legions whole but dividing up the Imperial Army would have just made the Space Marines comparatively even more powerful. Decimation is the wrong word to use in my opinion. It implies that the 'excess' were killed. They weren't. They were merely organised into a different fighting structure.

I dont think the Legions would have objected to supervison... i dont think any of them expected the events of the Heresy and Horus turning traitor. Oversight by their peers would have been accepted, they may have seconded troops to oversee other Legions, they may have autorised formation of a chapter with this specific purpose. But given the choice of decimation or oversight, they would not refuse the latter.

It's the level of scrutiny you're talking about though. The level of power over them they're giving to someone else (who could well turn traitor themselves). Immediately following the Heresy, I suspect at least some of the Primarchs would have been angry about the suggestion of them being disloyal anyway. After the Primarchs were gone? Other Space Marines, especially a Chapter set up specifically for this sort of thing, would still have been outsiders. Not to mention they would likely be distrusted and shunned. They'd have to be present for years to detect Chaos corruption and even that's not necessarily enough. Look at the Custodes in 'The First Heretic'.

Right now thanks to Guillemans reforms, they have no oversight and lack the resources to respond to any significant threat without trusting another chapter responds, which is no guarantee as a Chapter Master has zero authority over another, no capacity to oversee another chapter, ensured his forces became the bulk of the new Chapters, hampering the other Legions from truly recovering.

The high Lords of Terra can give orders to Space Marine Chapters though, and Armageddon demonstrated that they can work together. However, it's not affordable to concentrate Legion-size strength Space Marines. They're already spread too thin. Using that many against a single threat loses other territory, so it would only be done in absolute emergencies (i.e. when the Beast attacked the Imperium).

The high Lords may have tasked him with reorganising, but he was planning the Imperium Secundus long before that request, he had pushed his codex prior to the heresy and his tactics with the likes of Alpharius.

We don't know why he was planning Imperium Secundus or what was actually meant by it. The Codex at that point was about strategy and tactics, not about dividing up the Legions. I'd imagine most if not all of the Primarchs discussed tactics. It would be common ground between all of them (well, maybe not Angron quite so much). As for the whole thing with Alpharius, Guilliman was right. Alpharius was wasting time and the manpower of a soon-to-be-made-compliant world just to prove he and his Legion were good at tactics. It was boasting, nothing more.

This wouldnt have been any different with the high lords. The Imperium is broken, and RG would be all to keen to take the lead in its reconstruction.

I'm unsure of how much he tried to control his brothers. You've got the Codex (which included tactics from the other Primarchs) and one disagreement with Alpharius, which was about him being inefficient (and if I recall correctly, Horus was the only (or one of the only) Primarchs to actually praise him for his handling of that battle). Sure, Guilliman probably would have been keen to lead the reconstruction. He was, after all, the most qualified of the Primarchs and likely anyone else left standing to reunite the Imperium. He was efficient, coolheaded, had prior experience with running an empire and was a superb strategist and logistics expert. Frankly, he was the best man for the job at that time and as far as we know he never tried to seize power.

As for Guilliman manipulating the situation to ensure his geneseed was the most used, he had little way of knowing that it would actually be used that much. Presumably it was only after the Horus Heresy that the Dark Angels started to be less trusted and so their geneseed used less often.

We don't know what the high lords requested. Something as simple as reformation of the imperiums armed forces has a wide ranging remit.

Yes the overseers would be viewed with suspician but that's the point. And yes sometimes it may not be enough, but its a ssystem with internal checks and balances, and oversight not just from your peers from within the legion, but also oversight from outside. Now this could be brothers from another legion, or whatever.

What do we know of the imperium secundus, it was written by rg prior to the heresy or certainly prior to the battle for terra. What we also know is that it is completely not within rgs remit. Its quite simply not within his jurisdiction. Not his decisions to make. The emperor was still alive, malcador was still alive. You don't plan for things like complete overhaul of the imperiums social function on a whim, just in case you might need to.

Reading knf and yes guilleman seems rather likeable. But at the same time is character flaw is rather obvious, its a control issue, he has absolutely to micromanage everything and when that is taken away from him on maccragges honour he stands at a window trying to collate data, its not a terrible flaw but consistently throughout the book he shows a desire for knowledge and order, and involves the UM in anything he sees fit to ensure things 'go smoothly' and don't 'escalate out of his control'
This attitude isn't just going to go away after the heresy. We don't even know that the High Lords were in place. I suspect not, I suspect that the High lords were brought together as heads of their respective organisations by RG to dish out orders and organise rebuildin to their various departments. That the High Lords were formed because of the Heresy and the fact they were the natural choices for rebuilding. We also don't know RGs plan, he may have intended to head up the council before fulgrim offed him.

As for Chapters being more adaptable and wide spread. I will agree that that their more wide spread.
First of all keep in mind (and I'm saying this only once more)... LEGIONS DO NOT GO ROUND IN ONE BIG BLOB! They have demi legios detachments, etc
Let's use an example 2 sectors. Require space marine assistance and 1 is peaceful. 1 is a minor conflict, 1 is a full blown waaagh, the nearest Legion detachment of 10000 marines may decide to deploy 200 for the minor conflict, ignore the peaceful sector, and deploy 6000 for the waaagh leaving 3800 for other responses.
Or in the region we have 10 chapters that might respond.
They will all likely ignore the peaceful region unless its their home.
The chapters might deploy few companies to the minor war. Say ,umbers are comparable. With the larger conflict response is variable, some Chapter masters may decide their chapter isn't the nearest and not repsond. They might not get the astropathic message, but there is no communication between them so they can coordinate their force. As chapters are loathe to risk their entire Chapter, let's assume the each send an average of 6 companies, so 6000 deployed. If their lucky. That leaves an incredibly sketchy reserve. Some chapters may not have any reserve forces left, some conflicts may be ignored by some chapters as its close are to another, not knowing that the other chapter is fully committed.
And then we have no guarantee that the chapter will respond at all.
The advantage a legion has over Chapters is that the right hand knows what the left is doing. It knows what conflicts it has committed to and what resources it has deplyed and where. It can arrange for unit rotation in protracted conflicts,

The chapter system does not. You get why you get and hope its enough.

RG probably did not intend for most chapters to be his, but if you curb other legions recruitment and have a stiuation where his forces count for half of all 2nf founding chapters, its only natural for more um gene seed to be tithed and used. Perpetuating this trend.

Aas for Alpharius I'm afraid your confusing the Eskrador compliance with the disagreement. Just prior to Eskrador RG tried to get Alphy to accept codex doctrine, which he curtly refused over the discussion, cuminating in RG saying something along the lines of 'your Legion will never match the histories and victories of mine'
The Battle for Eskrador was a direct result of guillemans pushing and insult. And yes it was inefficient. But equally it proved to make a point. That Alphy can take down a heavily defended world that had prepared for their assault, with next to no casualties. Would RG be able to make the same claim. But this is besides the point RG sought to influence the AL into accepting his doctrine and through a hissy fit when they refused, along with a snidey remark after. That strikes me as sour grapes. The other primarchs probably thought, why do you do that? But the 'message' was to guilleman.

RG has a control obsession, and he's good at it, and that is not always a bad thing, but he seeks to control things he shouldn't.
How many other legions sought to control an Empire within an Empire (ultramar) and how quick would they receive reprimand if they tried.
Even from KNF it reveals that RG was encouraging his men to take command and admin roles, to govern. He was planning even then to ensure they governed well. The codex system takes this further with Chapter masters also in many cases planetary governors. If a chapter falls then they take their homeworld with them into damnation. Fully 1000 worlds (approx) owe alleigance to the marines, under the legion system that is just 8.

RG controls, implements order, its what he does. He probably would have made a good governor, but it came at the expense of military matters. Dorns forces were first and foremost a military unit. No pretence and governing or ownership. Just duty as a soldier, and his forces were broken not because of military need, but political influence by RG to set himself higher in the Imperium.

I'd side with Guilliman, In my opinion it's too risky to keep a force as devastating as a space marine legion under the control of a single person, at least if a chapter turns traitor then it's just a thousand marines to worry about. If it's a legion then you only have to look at the heresy itself to see how that turns out, yeah granted you'd get loyalists but the amount who'd turn traitor would be phenomenal in the worst case scenario.

It'd wound the crap out of my pride if I was a Primarch to split my legion up but it makes the most amount of sense to me, all that power and pride isn't worth the risks it poses. Chances are it might be wrong decision for some reason unknown to me but if I were there at the time just after the Hersey I'd want to prevent such devastation from ever happening again and in my mind the Codex Astartes would seem the most sensible option.

Guilliman - peerless administrator, logistician, and strategist. Savior of the Imperium. Legion specialized in conquering the most remote parts of the galaxy and building up systems to rival Terra.

Dorn - whiny masochist with no discernible skills. Night Haunter's bitch. Almost-traitor to the Imperium except he didn't have the balls for that either. Legion specialized in sitting around on Terra, decorating the masonry.

 Omegus wrote:
Guilliman - peerless administrator, logistician, and strategist. Savior of the Imperium. Legion specialized in conquering the most remote parts of the galaxy and building up systems to rival Terra.

Dorn - whiny masochist with no discernible skills. Night Haunter's bitch. Almost-traitor to the Imperium except he didn't have the balls for that either. Legion specialized in sitting around on Terra, decorating the masonry.

Really.

Dorn. Defender, Coordinated trhe defence of terra against horusks forces with the assistance of perturabo and his Iron Warriors. Did his duty as a soldier and general. After the battle hounded the fleeing forces of the warmaster digging out the toughest fortifications. Exemplarary combat record anf list of achievements during heresy.

Guilleman, lucked his way out of Calth (if Mcraggues honour stalled instead of reinitialised) Got slapped by kor Phaeron. Planned prior to the hersy for a new form of govenment. Built up an Empire of his own, schemer and planner, may even go so far as to say planning for treason. Said nothing while navy vessels fired on the imperial Fists instead of brining them into discussions. During the Heresy suffered massively at Calth, not much else. Only came into his own after the rest of the legions had done the work.

 Omegus wrote:
Guilliman - peerless administrator, logistician, and strategist. Savior of the Imperium. Legion specialized in conquering the most remote parts of the galaxy and building up systems to rival Terra.

More like hid in a corner with his generic brand marines waiting for the noise to stop during the siege of Terra, while Dorn's men and others fought and died defending. Get real Guiliman was just a power hungry coward

Even so Guilliman saved the IOM. With the legions one high-ranking Space Marine getting corrupted would be a catastrophe, instead now chapters going rogue is just a bad things. Think 10k. Space Marines going AWOL. That's an almost unstoppable force due to the supporting cast.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even so Guilliman saved the IOM. With the legions one high-ranking Space Marine getting corrupted would be a catastrophe, instead now chapters going rogue is just a bad things. Think 10k. Space Marines going AWOL. That's an almost unstoppable force due to the supporting cast.

The Horus Heresy ended on the Warmasters Battlebarge when the emperor slew Horus. The remaining traitor legions retreated before the ultra marines, dark angels and spacewolves arrived. In short, The Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars won the decisive battle of the Heresy.
Sure, the fighting continued for some time afterwards, but the Traitor forces had suffered a decisive defeat, and retreated to the eye of terror. All the ultra Marines did (and did it well) was clean up the mess that was left. They did not win the war, the war had already been won. and the only reason the Ultra Marines were in any position to take the lead after the Heresy, was because they had suffered the fewest casualties, were already the largest Legion any way, and took no meaningful role in the Heresy to begin with. Guilliman didn't save the IOM, Sanguinus, Rogal Dorn, Jaghati Khan and the Emperor did.

The main reason that 9 Legions going rogue was such a bad thing wasn't that they had a massive number of marines (a bit of a problem i will admit) but that The imperial Army, which at that time consisted of the army and navy, was under the direct command of the Legions, so when the Legions went, A MASSIVE number of ships and troops went with them as well. you are talking thousands of cruisers and battleships, and millions, if not tens of millions of soldiers. While the stories may concentrate on the Drama surrounding the Primarchs, and just how awesome space marines were, they were the tip of the spear. when Horus went rogue, along with 9 full legions, that force represented around half of the imperiums mobile forces.

Billions of soldiers. The Space Marines are just the glory-boys, the tip of the spear, while the Imperial Guard is the spear-shaft and the Imperial Navy is the man holding the spear.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:

More like hid in a corner with his generic brand marines waiting for the noise to stop during the siege of Terra, while Dorn's men and others fought and died defending. Get real Guiliman was just a power hungry coward

No he wasn't.

You know, you guys are giving me great ammunition for future insults to throw at the legions.

So why do you hate Space Marines Melissia?

If I did hate Space Marines, it would be because of you asking that question

I don’t always rescue the Imperium from destruction

But when I do, I make sure to annoy the fandom with it

 Omegus wrote:
Guilliman - peerless administrator, logistician, and strategist. Savior of the Imperium. Legion specialized in conquering the most remote parts of the galaxy and building up systems to rival Terra.

Dorn - whiny masochist with no discernible skills. Night Haunter's bitch. Almost-traitor to the Imperium except he didn't have the balls for that either. Legion specialized in sitting around on Terra, decorating the masonry.

You seem to be out of touch


Guilliman - plotted to overthrow the Imperium and kill any loyalist who got in his way. Fought one battle in the Horus Heresy . An almost traitor to the Imperium by his own words.

Dorn- The chosen of the Emperor, trusted by the Emperor to lead the armies of the Imperium against Horus. Declared the Emperor's Vanguard. Specialized in siege warfare, honor, and unshakeable loyalty. Credited by Horus to have one of the finest legions, the only legion that could stalemate the Luna Wolves in a mass and long term battle. Commanded the Defense of Terra in the largest battle and most important HH battle. Would rather give up his command then kill even a single loyal soldier.

Guilliman didn't fight one battle in the Horus Heresy, he fought more.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman didn't fight one battle in the Horus Heresy, he fought more.

Calth and thats it. The next time he fought a battle was against the Alpha Legion that occurred after the HH

Void, please try to make a better argument besides ""no he wasn't" or "he fought more." Lore supports Galdos, and looking at all the lore I'm hard pressed to believe Guiliman wasn't a power hungry coward. He waited until the noise stopped in the HH, saw his brother legions weakened and took advantage of that for power.

 Galdos wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman didn't fight one battle in the Horus Heresy, he fought more.

Calth and thats it. The next time he fought a battle was against the Alpha Legion that occurred after the HH

I think it’s a wee bit too early to be making such a bold claim.
The HH series hasn't even ended yet, you know?

 Galdos wrote:
Calth and thats it. The next time he fought a battle was against the Alpha Legion that occurred after the HH

Nope, you're wrong.

Guilliman personally enters the field of battle against Lorgar and Angron in Betrayer, set after the Battle of Calth.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
Calth and thats it. The next time he fought a battle was against the Alpha Legion that occurred after the HH

Nope, you're wrong.

Guilliman personally enters the field of battle against Lorgar and Angron in Betrayer, set after the Battle of Calth.

What's the source. Is it the novella? Can't say iv had access.

But the whole point of RG is his legion was vast. Horus was wanting him out of the way of the main fight. Hence why korphaeron was sent to slow him.
I agree he probably fought less battles however and mostly mopping up after, but so did Dorn. In fact dorn was still mopping up after RG scurried off to terra to get the codex support.

The fact the imperium secundus was even planned for and warned his legion about shows at least some alterior motive beyond loyalty.

 Omegus wrote:


Dorn - whiny masochist with no discernible skills. Night Haunter's bitch. Almost-traitor to the Imperium except he didn't have the balls for that either. Legion specialized in sitting around on Terra, decorating the masonry.

Dude.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Nope, you're wrong.

Guilliman personally enters the field of battle against Lorgar and Angron in Betrayer, set after the Battle of Calth.

Girlyman ups, Guilliman wasn't a power-hungry coward, I totallu agree BUT to me seems like he after the Heresy proclaimed himself the second Emprah and started to use the iron fist with his allies.
So, what, Dorn that by the Emprah's word was the MOST loyal and unbreakable decided to don't use your Codex, why did you bombard him??

IMHO: Guilliman did good thing, but the Codex Astartes and the methods with he imposed it were WRONG.

My 2 cents

I can agree with that. But the aim for reducing treachery wasn't considered. All the codex does is reduce the damage a chapter can do. Both loyal and rogue. The fact chapters operate completly independent of any outside command structure is testament to this. No monitoring, no problems.

I also don't believe he was a coward. A manipulator and politician yes. Sore at not being selected as warmaster when horus got the job, and then dorn after.
The man has an ego problem and a control freak. The codex had this in mind. My way or no way attitude.
He was Ratifying his ideas and tactics, proving himself right. Despite alpharius disillusioning him of any such notions of his codex supremacy.
In his codex trials (I forget the short story name) only a superior mind such as horus should be able to counter it after the apparent death of alpharius, the alphas soundly thrashed him, whilst believing them leaderless. Thast got to be ego damaging.

Guilleman was a good strategist, but there's more to him than is let on so far. A personally think its a lust for power. Maybe a trait for him carried over from his youth, son of a consul, father murdered by the other consul who shared power.
Noble bearing, and a stark lesson that power isn't shared.

Could explain why dorn was essentially deposed whilst away from terra.
Guilleman did to dorn what gallan did to konor (but without the killing)

But politicians are cowards

Martial prowess
Guilliman - holds his own against ascending Angron for a while
Dorn - schooled by Kurze

Guilliman wins.

Special skill
Guilliman - being an example of a "perfect" Primarch
Dorn - being not as good as Perturabo

Guilliman wins.

Legion assignment
Ultramarines - pacifying the most dangerous and remote corner of the galaxy
Imperial Fists - guarding the most protected planet in the galaxy

Guilliman wins.

Legion colors
Ultramarines - regal blue
Imperial Fists - urine yellow

Guilliman wins.

Actions leading up to Siege of Terra
Guilliman - preparing for all eventualities and organizing the counter offensive. Dealing with betrayal/ambush from Word Bearers and World Eaters.
Dorn - internal monologues trying to convince himself he is not scared of his traitor brothers, executing Remembrancers for having demoralizing information, moping about having to remove decorations from the masonry

Guilliman wins.

Actions during Siege of Terra
Guilliman - remains to be seen HH novels, stuck in the Warp on his way along with Russ and Lion per older material
Dorn - being lost on Horus' flagship

Tie.

Actions after Siege of Terra
Guilliman - leading the Scouring, reorganizing the Imperium so another civil war cannot happen
Dorn - getting thousands of his men pointlessly killed in the Iron Cage, almost starting another civil war

Guilliman wins.

Death
Guilliman - poisoned by Daemon Primarch Fulgrim who was killing Primarchs before he was a daemon, body preserved in the heart of Ultramar (the jewel of the Imperium) to provide inspiration to Space Marines and mortals alike
Dorn - got himself killed by some scrubs on a Chaos cruiser, only hand bones remain for Imperial Fists to doodle on

Guilliman wins.

Legacy
Guilliman - half a million plus Space Marines who carry his gene-seed
Dorn - one Chapter of frothing maniacs who make the Ecclesiarchy look mild, another Chapter on the verge of extinction, and Imperial Fists still sitting around on Terra torturing themselves with pain gloves

Guilliman wins.

Dorn was the ultimate defender you loon, there only an idiot would choose the merely competent Guilliman over Dorn.

As for their colors, it's the color of potato-chips vs the color of color-wash or dish-wash.

 Omegus wrote:
Martial prowess
Guilliman - psy-raped by Kor Phearon
Dorn - sucker attacked by Kurze

Tie.

Special skill
Guilliman - logistics
Dorn - Emperor's pretorian, defence

Dorn wins

Legion assignment
Ultramarines - ruling and drinking wine
Imperial Fists - guarding the most cool dude in the universe
Dorn wins.

Legion colors
Ultramarines - smurfish blue
Imperial Fists - gold yellow

Dorn wins.

Actions leading up to Siege of Terra
Guilliman - preparing for all eventualities and organizing the counter offensive. Dealing with betrayal/ambush from Word Bearers and World Eaters.
Dorn - sending the retribution fleet to attack Perturabo

Robby wins because of the new fluff

Actions during Siege of Terra
Guilliman - remains to be seen
Dorn -defending the terra

Dorn wins

Actions after Siege of Terra
Guilliman - leading the Scouring, reorganizing the Imperium so another civil war cannot happen
Dorn - getting thousands of his men pointlessly killed in the Iron Cage, almost starting another civil war

Guilliman wins.

Death
Guilliman - poisoned by Daemon Primarch Fulgrim who was killing Primarchs before he was a daemon, body preserved in the heart of Ultramar (the jewel of the Imperium) to provide inspiration to Space Marines and mortals alike
Dorn - got himself killed by some scrubs on a Chaos cruiser, only hand bones remain for Imperial Fists to doodle on

Guilliman wins.

Legacy
Guilliman - half a million plus Space Marines who carry his gene-seed
Dorn - one Chapter of frothing maniacs who make the Ecclesiarchy look mild, another Chapter on the verge of extinction, and Imperial Fists still sitting around on Terra torturing themselves with pain gloves

Guilliman wins.

FTFY - in some things I agree in some not....

You and Beavis (would that make you Butthead? ) need to stop stalking me. It's getting creepy.

 Omegus wrote:
You and Beavis (would that make you Butthead? ) need to stop stalking me. It's getting creepy.

Sorry then I was being only polite....I'll stop commenting your posts - cheers...

I was joking. Mostly. Wy so serious?

Hee, hee, hee, heyh Butt-Marko, watch Omeron he is asswiping himself again. Heehee, heehee, he looks like Clint Eastwood making a pony-expression.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Hee, hee, hee, heyh Butt-Marko, watch Omeron he is asswiping himself again. Heehee, heehee, he looks like Clint Eastwood making a pony-expression.

Yeah - but really...Too much is too much...When discussion becomes degraded like this (and like in SW thread) it's best to bow out say goodnight....I'm too old for this crap and I have to work tomorrow....

100% agreed, this has boiled down to battling the clinically insane.

Says the pot to the kettle.

See what I don't get is why RG gets the laurels for leadinf the scouring.

When It was Dorn out there also, not just tackling the generic scrub planets but taking it upon himself to deal with the most dangerous entrenched worlds.
I agree guilleman did a load of good and brought a lload to compliance, but it was the Fists that dealt with the tough worlds. The co
Let's not forget the kicking guilleman took on Eskrador.

During the heresy, somw would say organise the counter offensive, others would say delayed an essential relief effort.

Also post heresy dorns being painted with a brush for brining trhe Imperium to the brink of civil war? Dorns the one who backed down to prevent it. Yes RG escsapes such criticism.

While i do think that the codex has done a good job in terms of preventing another horus heresy, i cant help but think that with the problems that face to IoM in the current settings (necrons and tyranids) a pre heresy legion would be far better at facing down a hive fleet or tomb world than a chapter. Of course multiple chapters have combatted hive fleest, i think a more centralized fighting force like a legion would be better than several chapters w different combat doctrines who may or may not work with each otherwould do better in the end.

It might be better for a little while.

Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

It's better that the Imperial Guard take up the slack-- which is something that the Imperial Guard is good at, despite the naysayers.

 Melissia wrote:
Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

Why?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

Why?

Because as a general rule, Space Marines are a group of massively prideful and powerful warriors who don't like taking gak from "lesser beings" and consider themselves better than everyone, resulting in, inevitably, one of the ones in power getting different ideas on how to run things and starting a war over it.

I'm sure you don't agree.

What of the Primarchs?

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

Why?

Because as a general rule, Space Marines are a group of massively prideful and powerful warriors who don't like taking gak from "lesser beings" and consider themselves better than everyone, resulting in, inevitably, one of the ones in power getting different ideas on how to run things and starting a war over it.

I'm sure you don't agree.

How is this significantly different from the rest of humanity? More regular humans have turned against the Imperium than Space Marines have.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

Why?

Because as a general rule, Space Marines are a group of massively prideful and powerful warriors who don't like taking gak from "lesser beings" and consider themselves better than everyone, resulting in, inevitably, one of the ones in power getting different ideas on how to run things and starting a war over it.

I'm sure you don't agree.

How is this significantly different from the rest of humanity? More regular humans have turned against the Imperium than Space Marines have.

Its not. It simply proves that Space Marines are still Human for all their augmentations.

And yet, you don't ever see people make comments like "The galaxy would be better off without the Imperial Guard", or "human soldiers can't be trusted, they failed the Emperor", like you consistently hear about Space Marines in this thread, despite the fact that regular human soldiers have caused astronomically more damage to the Imperium than the Space Marines ever have.

What makes you say that?

Say what?

"regular human soldiers have caused astronomically more damage to the Imperium than the Space Marines ever have. "

Also, fine, don't talk to me on Skype, jerk. :C

Indeed the Imperial Guard can easily overwhelm the Space Marine chapters. The Space Marines are just what manages the IOM being like Germany anno 1916. Still hope. Still in the fight but the hope is fading away. Without the Space Marines the IOM would just loose all it's ability to go on the offensive and they would collapse. Without the Imperial Guard well then they would implode spectacularly and with some speed, but the really good thing of the IOM is the Imperial Navy. That's where the real strength of the IOM lays in my opinion.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Indeed the Imperial Guard can easily overwhelm the Space Marine chapters. The Space Marines are just what manages the IOM being like Germany anno 1916. Still hope. Still in the fight but the hope is fading away. Without the Space Marines the IOM would just loose all it's ability to go on the offensive and they would collapse. Without the Imperial Guard well then they would implode spectacularly and with some speed, but the really good thing of the IOM is the Imperial Navy. That's where the real strength of the IOM lays in my opinion.

I agree. The Imperial Navy is unacknowledged backbone of the Human Empire.

To quote Starship Troopers: Marauder...

"Without the Fleet, Mobile Infantry can't hold hold the Outer Colonies. Next stop: Earth."

"There goes the neighborhood..."

Now, translate to 40k...

"Without the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard and the Astartes can't hold the line. Next stop, Terra."

"There goes the neighborhood..."

And to think if only the Primarchs had thought of doing a poll the whole fate of the galaxy might have changed

What OF the Imperial Guard? When an Imperial Guard regiment (or even an entire WORLD of regiments) goes rogue, it has nowhere near the impact that an entire Space Marine legion going rogue does. I'm sure you'll agree on that regard. And that's without the example of Commissars keeping them in line in the first place, keeping many loyal through fear where they would betray otherwise.

The Imperial Guard is far more resistant to the damage of betrayal than the legions were.

In order for the legions to come back while still not being an inherent danger to the Imperium, it'd take massive levels of reform.

 Melissia wrote:
What OF the Imperial Guard? When an Imperial Guard regiment (or even an entire WORLD of regiments) goes rogue, it has nowhere near the impact that an entire Space Marine legion going rogue does. I'm sure you'll agree on that regard.

It's actually worse when elements of the Imperial Navy goes rogue. But an armygroup of the IG is very bad when going rogue.

As opposed to hundreds of thousands of Astartes and their attached Imperial Army flunkies and massive independent naval assets?

 Melissia wrote:
As opposed to hundreds of thousands of Astartes and their attached Imperial Army flunkies and massive independent naval assets?

Try thinking of the IOM without the Imperial navy for one moment, and they can just launch a few torpedoes at a planet from the friendly neighborhood Lunar Cruiser if you want could cause more damage than millions of Imperial Guardsmen worshiping the Ruinous powers.

Once again I find that you didn't actually respond to the point being raised.

And once again I find you not to read what I'm writing.

I read what you wrote. It's not relevant to the suggestion that betrayal by hundreds of thousands of marines, the Imperial Army that follows them, and their naval assets, are quite possibly one of the worst things that can ever happen to the Imperium.

Also? We're not doing this again. No.

 Melissia wrote:
I read what you wrote. It's not relevant to the suggestion that betrayal by hundreds of thousands of marines, the Imperial Army that follows them, and their naval assets, are quite possibly one of the worst things that can ever happen to the Imperium.

Please note I'm thinking of the present IOM, not the past. And even so, a single Lunar Cruiser have enough fire-power to destroy an entire planet (if it's a rather primitive one of course). As for the 100k Space Marines with support, they are pretty limited in damage-output without the fleet.

Just don't allow the Legions to control the mortal armies alongside them.

Bam, now they lack air support and bodies to throw in the grinder.

Also, not one founding loyalist chapter has turned its back from the Imperium in its entirety, but countless non-founding chapters have, after being more removed from the ideals and commands put in place by the loyalists.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Just don't allow the Legions to control the mortal armies alongside them.

Bam, now they lack air support and bodies to throw in the grinder.

Also, not one founding loyalist chapter has turned its back from the Imperium in its entirety, but countless non-founding chapters have, after being more removed from the ideals and commands put in place by the loyalists.

Sure, no first founding chapter has ever turned against the imperium as a whole.
But! Astartes from any first founding chapters have on more than one occasion turned traitor.

Being part of a first founding chapter does not make you immune to corruption, nor does it make you more loyal to the Emperor than those of the newer chapters.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Just don't allow the Legions to control the mortal armies alongside them.

Bam, now they lack air support and bodies to throw in the grinder.

Also, not one founding loyalist chapter has turned its back from the Imperium in its entirety, but countless non-founding chapters have, after being more removed from the ideals and commands put in place by the loyalists.

Sure, no first founding chapter has ever turned against the imperium as a whole.
But! Astartes from any first founding chapters have on more than one occasion turned traitor.

Being part of a first founding chapter does not make you immune to corruption, nor does it make you more loyal to the Emperor than those of the newer chapters.

It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption. Though I wouldn't mind hearing the Ultramarines all turning against the light of the Emperor.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

Sort of, name a CSM from a first founding chapter.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

He can't.

There is only one group of Imperials, humans or astartes, that are completely and utterly immune to the taint of the warp. Those are Blanks-- and they can still be "tainted" with the idea of Chaos and thus betray the Imperium.

Even the Grey Knights must always be vigilant against its influences.

Plus wasn't there a renegade Raven Guard Shadow Captain of the 4th company called Ardaric Vaanes that became part of Warsmith Honsou's forces when he tried invading Ultramar? Sure he got "redeemed" shortly after but otherwise there's an example of a first founding chapter marine who turned against the Imperium (and a captain no less).

Plus there was Sven Vulfbad who is another example as a CSM of a first founding chapter as he was a wolf lord who turned to khornate worship.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

Sort of, name a CSM from a first founding chapter.

Do you even lift?

Thinking about it it was a bad idea to challenge as also a Salamander Librarian was seduced and such. The Grey Knights have a diamond-hard inner shell to fall back on even if their bodies should surrender to temptations and that's why they can't be turned, and why they likely goes through 10 to 100 times the amount of the regular Space Marines to make Space Marines.

 Redcruisair wrote:
[

Spoiler:

Captain Hakim of the White Scars and the marines under his command - Garro: Sword of Truth -

Was just about to say him.

2 things leap out at me here. Firstly 'makes you less suspect to corruption' does not mean less likely. Just that because of your history you may be given the benefit of the doubt unlike a more recent chapter. To which I agree.

Also Legions v Chapters is not the same as imperial army and navy breakup. I'm sure Even Dorn wouldn't have objected to a fundamental reorganization of the forces. But the line is crossed when his own unit. His sons are broken. I'm pretty sure even he wouldn't have objected to the reorganization of the imperial army into the Guard and Navy.

I stand on the side of the chaos armies, because although a run necrons I believe the C'tan, the ones who made them the immortal beings they are, a being of chaos. Oppose chaos and you appose the necrons. Feel our wrath. Because we are closer to Terra than you think...

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

Sort of, name a CSM from a first founding chapter.

Imperial Fist and Space Wolf were both in The Gildar Rift.

A Raven Guard in the UM novels

 Galdos wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

Sort of, name a CSM from a first founding chapter.

Imperial Fist and Space Wolf were both in The Gildar Rift.

A Raven Guard in the UM novels

I retconned the question. It was stupid and to be honest. As everyone except the Grey Knights and , well I wouldn't recommend writing about Sororitas straying since they seem to be very fanatical about their faith.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
...I wouldn't recommend writing about Sororitas straying since they seem to be very fanatical about their faith.

They're the Word Bearers 2.0...look what happened to the 1.0 series.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
...I wouldn't recommend writing about Sororitas straying since they seem to be very fanatical about their faith.

They're the Word Bearers 2.0...look what happened to the 1.0 series.

I'm very sure, since they basically are so fanatically devoted to Empy they will follow him beyond death. It's kind of sad you can't put that childish hatred of the Ecclesiarchy to rest, after all you are not so different.

 Beaviz81 wrote:


Please note I'm thinking of the present IOM, not the past. And even so, a single Lunar Cruiser have enough fire-power to destroy an entire planet (if it's a rather primitive one of course). As for the 100k Space Marines with support, they are pretty limited in damage-output without the fleet.

One quick thing I have to point out, SM have their own fleet!

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
...I wouldn't recommend writing about Sororitas straying since they seem to be very fanatical about their faith.

They're the Word Bearers 2.0...look what happened to the 1.0 series.

I'm very sure, since they basically are so fanatically devoted to Empy they will follow him beyond death. It's kind of sad you can't put that childish hatred of the Ecclesiarchy to rest, after all you are not so different.

What are you talking about?

 chapgrimaldus wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:


Please note I'm thinking of the present IOM, not the past. And even so, a single Lunar Cruiser have enough fire-power to destroy an entire planet (if it's a rather primitive one of course). As for the 100k Space Marines with support, they are pretty limited in damage-output without the fleet.

One quick thing I have to point out, SM have their own fleet!

An inferior fleet whose primary purpose is dedicated towards transporting Marines from point A to point B. Not a full on combat fleet.

Actually there are various kinds of ship to make up a chapter's fleet that can be quite formidable. Proof you ask?
Play some Battlefleet Gothic then you'll get it. Plus a lot of fleet based chapters pride themselves of the power of their fleet and the training their serfs get. Take the 3rd war of Armageddon where a BT fleet defended for weeks against an entire ork waagghhh before pulling back to regroup. or many other battles fought by SM in space. There are treasure troves of battle lore you ignore by calling their fleet "inferior"

And yet, their ships, especially the bigger ones like battle barges, are still dedicated mostly towards getting marines from point A in space to point B on the battlefield and then supporting said marines in combat-- whereas the Imperial Navy's ships are dedicated almost entirely to the effort of destroying other ships in space.

Actually I am pretty sure the Space Wolves proved that the fleet of a single chapter is superior to the fleet of an entire Segmentum.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually I am pretty sure the Space Wolves proved that the fleet of a single chapter is superior to the fleet of an entire Segmentum.

Indeed

@Melissia: 95% of the IOM Capital Ships are geared for that purpose, to get troops from point A to B the rest are supporting the ships with the troops, doesn't make them any less deadly besides wanna talk about inferior? What about the huge chunk of merchantmen ships making up the regular imperial navy? I'd take a crew of trained SM serfs over a bunch of civilians who know how to pilot a ship.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually I am pretty sure the Space Wolves proved that the fleet of a single chapter is superior to the fleet of an entire Segmentum.

They displayed hit and run tactics. Try thinking Viking, next words should be hit and run attacks. That's what they do best.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
@Melissia: 95% of the IOM Capital Ships are geared for that purpose

Not from what I remember from BFG.

Its what I remember from every single book I have read. Strike Cruisers, emperor, apocalypse,retribution class battleships, imperial vengeance GC, dauntless class, need I name more that have holds used to transport regiments? Quit arguing for the sake of it please

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Its what I remember from every single book I have read. Strike Cruisers, emperor, apocalypse,retribution class battleships, imperial vengeance GC, dauntless class, need I name more that have holds used to transport regiments? Quit arguing for the sake of it please

No, because that'd be pointless. Just because a ship with hundreds of thousands of crew-- if not ten or a hundred times more than that-- is able to hold and deploy a few regiments of guardsmen doesn't mean that it is a dedicated transport like the Battlebarge.

The Battlebarge is designed SPECIFICALLY around deploying a large number of Space Marines in a rapid fashion via drop pod and thunderhawk, and then supporting them with orbital bombardment. IT IS a troop transport craft. Its most potent offense is the cargo that it carries, rather than its own armaments. IT is heavily shielded specifically to burst through planetary defenses and deliver its cargo, and it is armed to bombard planets in assistance of the Space Marine troops it deploys. It's by no means a weak vessel, but compared to, say, an Apocalypse battleship carrying a large number of lances and a massive Nova Cannon capable of firing shots which travel at hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of kilometers a second, and which can destroy anything within a thousand kilometers of its detonation, its offensive firepower pales-- unless you include the power of its boarding crew (which is not always an option).

A Battle Barge easily rivals any Battleship; while an Imperial Navy Battleship's Weapon Batteries out-range a Battle Barges, basically, they're optimum range (30cm on the TT) remains the same. Lances are also out-classed (except in range) by Bombardment Cannon (because they - Bombardment Cannon - can inflict more critical damage than a Lance). Also, Battle Barges can launch Boarding Torpedoes, which Imperial Navy ships rarely carry.

Whooah. Relax. Both of you are right.

Yes the space marine fleet is geared towards planetary invasion. But to do that it needs to be capable of smashing orbital defences and destroying system ships. In a fleet action they are at a disadvantage because it's not how their ships are optimised for. They are more than just a transport. Theyes are amongst the most formidable vessels the Imerium can deploy. But it is planetary assaults that they truly excel.

That's not to say they are incapable or unable or even worse at it. They are exceptionally well armed and armoured and to call them inferior does them an injustice.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually I am pretty sure the Space Wolves proved that the fleet of a single chapter is superior to the fleet of an entire Segmentum.

Battlefleet Cadia, defending the Cadia sector (which if its anything like the size of the gothic sector has around 80 inhabited systems) had a standing strength prior to the 13th Black crusade of:

12 Battleships
12 Cruiser squadrons (48 cruisers if in squadrons of 4)
21 escort squadrons (126 escorts if in squadrons of 6)

Compared to a 'codex' space marine fleet of:

3 Battlebarges
6 strike cruisers
and assorted escorts. (20-30 i would estimate)

Even taking into account that the cadia sector is more heavily fortified than most, and the space wolves may have a larger fleet than other chapters, if Battlefleet Cadia faced the space wolf fleet, then it would be a short, sharp exchange of fire resulting in the destruction of the space wolves.

Then consider how many sectors there are (80 sysems per sector) 1 million systems in the imperium, equating to 12,500 secotors spread across the whole imperium, at a conservative estimate, that each sector has a fleet roughly 50% as strong as Battlefleet Cadia, that would equate to:

75,000 battleships
300,000 Cruisers
1,500,000 escorts.

not counting of course system defence fleets that aren't warp capable, and so forth.

compared with:

3000 battlebarges (3 per chapter, 1000 chapters)
6000 Strike cruisers (6 per chapter, 1000 chapters)
and perhaps 20-30,000 escorts, quite probably more

So, at a rough guess, the imperial navy has 25 times as many battleships as all space marine chapters combined, 50 times as many cruisers, and 50 times as many escorts.

There is a reason why the Imperial Navy, and the Imperial Guard bear the brunt of the fighting in any campaign, and why they make up the bulk of the forces. They have vastly superior resources to draw upon,
and it is also precisely this reason that had the Space marines remained as Legions rather than being split into chapters, and had a legion gone rogue would have been pretty bad, but the Navy could deal with it. What made the Horus Heresy such a terrible war was that the Imperial Army (being composed of the army and navy at that time) was under the direct command of the Legions, and thus the primarchs, and when the Legions went over to Horus, their Army formations did too. thats half the imperiums military forces of the time

We also know from BFG that the Lunar Class Cruiser is the most common vessel. It numbers around 700 vessels across Segmentum Obscurus.

Id hesitate on your figures, a sector at war is likely to give distorted numbers. In the case of Cadia, its defences are ramped up along with Armageddon.

Which consisted of...

■First-Line Cruiser Squadron (6)
■Second-Line Cruiser Squadrons (9)
■Light Cruiser Squadrons (17)
■Escort Squadrons (21)

Actually I'd hesitate to consider any of GW's "official" numbers, considering that GW doesn't even understand its own scale.

Psh. Chapters. Psh.

Late to the party, but I go with Guilliman. I think the Legions being split into Chapters was a great idea. Much more potential colour schemes.

Fluff wise, I also think it was also the right thing to do. Prohibits large scale Space Marine heresy based on one leader going nutso (Huron being the only one to date) allows more potential for advancement (1,000 Chapter Masters!) and prevents the need for more bureaucracies to manage galaxy spanning Space Marine armies.

Best not to keep all the eggs in one basket.

How can you say that legionnares(spelling) is better than codex? Each chapter has it's own unique history. You can't just throw them all together and merge them. I mean you can't just put blood angels and grey knights together and expect them to forget the past. Think on this please.

 Grey Knight Dillon wrote:
How can you say that legionnares(spelling) is better than codex? Each chapter has it's own unique history. You can't just throw them all together and merge them. I mean you can't just put blood angels and grey knights together and expect them to forget the past. Think on this please.

You have no knowledge of 40k history do you? Or you are trolling.


We are saying instead of having the Blood Angels divided up into Flesh Tearers and Blood Angels at 1k each. THey should never have divided up and have always been the Blood Angels at 2k men. This is far easier to control from a miltiary stand point.

This subject is a question??

I play a Black Templar army and they have operated as a legion forever. They are atoning for the sins of objecting to their numbers being throttled back but they are too busy taking the fight to the enemy to count members. If they get too numerous it is assumed that more serious fighting is needed.

 Talizvar wrote:
This subject is a question??

I play a Black Templar army and they have operated as a legion forever. They are atoning for the sins of objecting to their numbers being throttled back but they are too busy taking the fight to the enemy to count members. If they get too numerous it is assumed that more serious fighting is needed.

Good point; I don't know their exact numbers but AFAIK, they are well beyond Chapter-strength, and are probably the size of a small legion when at peak combat strength.

Iirc the closest thing to a reliable number that's been thrown around thus far is ~5000 marines. Much bigger than other chapters, but no where near legion size.

Huron's Red Corsairs on the other hand have been stated to be near legion size.

Good job, Codex Astartes. The Red Corsairs can kick the ass of basically any chapter in existence now because Huron doesn't play by your silly rules.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Iirc the closest thing to a reliable number that's been thrown around thus far is ~5000 marines. Much bigger than other chapters, but no where near legion size.

Five Grand Companies; that's about half the minimum (ten Grand Companies; the Thousand Sons had nine) of a Great Crusade-era Legion.

 Grey Knight Dillon wrote:
How can you say that legionnares(spelling) is better than codex? Each chapter has it's own unique history. You can't just throw them all together and merge them. I mean you can't just put blood angels and grey knights together and expect them to forget the past. Think on this please.

First off
and now:

lastly: Every chapters history is their legion, their founding. Codex restricts numbers and the way they fight. It wouldn't be throwing them all together and wth would gray knights and BA go together

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Iirc the closest thing to a reliable number that's been thrown around thus far is ~5000 marines. Much bigger than other chapters, but no where near legion size.

Five Grand Companies; that's about half the minimum (ten Grand Companies; the Thousand Sons had nine) of a Great Crusade-era Legion.

If i understand you correctly, you are implying a legion is 10K? If so that is far short, I think the Raven Guard were 80k and the Word Bearers over 100k.

Must go read more fluff.

So they should have broken up the Raven Guard to 80 chapters?

Not refuting what was quoted but then I think they would go insane just trying to name them all. At least making your own chapter no-one heard of is not much of a stretch.

JWhex wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Iirc the closest thing to a reliable number that's been thrown around thus far is ~5000 marines. Much bigger than other chapters, but no where near legion size.

Five Grand Companies; that's about half the minimum (ten Grand Companies; the Thousand Sons had nine) of a Great Crusade-era Legion.

If i understand you correctly, you are implying a legion is 10K? If so that is far short, I think the Raven Guard were 80k and the Word Bearers over 100k.

The Thousand Sons were the smallest of the legions, with nine Fellowships (Grand Companies) at the time of the Horus Heresy, though they originally started out with ten. Its logical to assume that ten Grand Companies would be the minimum strength for a legion.