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 Eetion wrote:
Yes disagreement between the tyrranic warveterans wanting ammendments and others wanting it to stay 'pure'.

To this day the tyrranic war veterans remains a point of contention.

Its basicly a guide, but somewhere along the way that has been lost.

Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,
Knowledge of chaos, oversight by chaplains, librarians and apothecaries to ensure pure and effective screening, all now utilised after the Legions.
The question is is it these screening patterns or the codex that is mainly responsible for the reduction in traitors.

I would say both. Careful screening of the candidates helps minimize the change of corruption, while the codex prevents any chapters from massing too much power for themselves.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Yes disagreement between the tyrranic warveterans wanting ammendments and others wanting it to stay 'pure'.

To this day the tyrranic war veterans remains a point of contention.

Its basicly a guide, but somewhere along the way that has been lost.

Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,
Knowledge of chaos, oversight by chaplains, librarians and apothecaries to ensure pure and effective screening, all now utilised after the Legions.
The question is is it these screening patterns or the codex that is mainly responsible for the reduction in traitors.

I would say both. Careful screening of the candidates helps minimize the change of corruption, while the codex prevents any chapters from massing too much power for themselves.

But also makes each of the autonomus units operating without oversight. If Chapter Master X becomes tainted, he is the top dog, no one is monitoring him, he may lead his chapter from the imperium, or break with a small portion, or even destroy itslef with infighting. By being in Legion with proper controls and checks, he is accountable to more than just himself, his Peers will no doubt watch each other for failings, and indeed that 'small cog in a big machine' attitude may prevent some masters falling due to inflated ego.

Of course this does pose a risk of infecting beyond the chapter, but it is not without its faillings, that lack of supervision by their peers and a risk of developing a God Complex.

I stand by my claim that a Legion is a more adaptable force able to deploy nessacery troops to meet the threat.
The changes needed was one should be how the Legions were supervised and observed, not their decimation.

But as I said, I have a suspician that RGs changes were politically motivated aimed at securing his own influence over the fledgling Imperium, to ensure his troops or those loyal to him (and lets not forget the 2nd founding were Ultramarines in everything but name) remained the numerically superior force. What the codex immediately did in the aftermath, was severly hamper any growth of his fellow Primarchs Legions after their decimation... Fists Blood ngels, White Scars, on Terra, DA to unknown accident Raven Guard, Salamanders, Ironhands at Istvaan yes i know the IH veteran companies were small advance force but something must have happened as few successor chapters, and Wolves were no longer numerous)

I one swoop he ensured that roughly half of all space marines in the Imperium would be loyal to him stopping his brother Legions from increasing their numbers to roughly preheresy levels 700'000 other marines to 250'000 ultras.

In one book, he crippled the Imperiums Legions, so no longer could the stand against a serious threat, and ensured his influence on the newly formed Imperium.

 Eetion wrote:
But also makes each of the autonomus units operating without oversight. If Chapter Master X becomes tainted, he is the top dog, no one is monitoring him, he may lead his chapter from the imperium, or break with a small portion, or even destroy itslef with infighting. By being in Legion with proper controls and checks, he is accountable to more than just himself, his Peers will no doubt watch each other for failings, and indeed that 'small cog in a big machine' attitude may prevent some masters falling due to inflated ego.

Of course this does pose a risk of infecting beyond the chapter, but it is not without its faillings, that lack of supervision by their peers and a risk of developing a God Complex.

I stand by my claim that a Legion is a more adaptable force able to deploy nessacery troops to meet the threat.
The changes needed was one should be how the Legions were supervised and observed, not their decimation.

I don’t really care how SM is most effectively run with regards to chapter/legion. What matters to me is how the codex managed to drastically reduce the vast power the legions originally held.

Your apparent trust in the Astarte’s loyalty to the imperium is very touching and all, but I personally would not risk placing the safety of the imperium in the hands of distant warrior monks, who claims fealty only to the emperor himself. Speaking of which, that guy has not been around for some time, so who is going to rein in all those many super soldiers running around the galaxy? How does one give commands to a whole legion of space marines?

There simply is no way you can keep control of such a force. So instead you just divide the legions into tiny, controllable pieces, which the codex did a splendid job with, I might add.

 Eetion wrote:
But as I said, I have a suspician that RGs changes were politically motivated aimed at securing his own influence over the fledgling Imperium, to ensure his troops or those loyal to him (and lets not forget the 2nd founding were Ultramarines in everything but name) remained the numerically superior force. What the codex immediately did in the aftermath, was severly hamper any growth of his fellow Primarchs Legions after their decimation... Fists Blood ngels, White Scars, on Terra, DA to unknown accident Raven Guard, Salamanders, Ironhands at Istvaan yes i know the IH veteran companies were small advance force but something must have happened as few successor chapters, and Wolves were no longer numerous)

I one swoop he ensured that roughly half of all space marines in the Imperium would be loyal to him stopping his brother Legions from increasing their numbers to roughly preheresy levels 700'000 other marines to 250'000 ultras.

In one book, he crippled the Imperiums Legions, so no longer could the stand against a serious threat, and ensured his influence on the newly formed Imperium.

Aah, don’t tease me like that. Now I really want to read a book about Guilliman going all mastermind mode on the imperium and playing the puppeteer behind the shadows.

He may not even have knowingly intended the way it is. It may be something as simple as distrusting all his Brothers and only his own sons. It may be something more calculated.
But it does show he was planning Imperium secundus prior to the Heresy. That does show pre meditation on change and how its HIS change with no input from Malcador the Emperor or his brothers.

There's something suspicious about that while the war is yet to truly start.


As for how you control Legions, that should have been a matter to examine and not their breaking.
The Ironhands had lost Ferrus, the BA had lost Sangy, and the DA had 'lost" Lionel. It was a relevant issue to consider. One which Guilleman could have examined.

For example Chapter Masters, the Tetrachs, the mournival, quite a few chapters had nay sayers, it would not have been a hard job for a council, the task distributed amongst them whilst maintaining the checks of peer oversight.

As it is he instituted a system of these 'gods' be left to their own devices, without oversight. So what he effectively did was reduce the chances of major forces turning to chaos and rebelling spreading. What the codex did not do was ensuring individuals in charge were less likely to turn. He simply negated the maximum damage they could do.

Yet one to his benefit at the expense of his brothers. Had fulgrim not intervened, what would have been his next move?

Ironically, despite all the arguments against the legion system, the poll clearly shows more people favor it over the Codex system.

Argumentum ad populum is popular here.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Argumentum ad populum is popular here.

True, but its such a shame that 40k is not a democracy, because if it were, the legion system would be upheld. After all, in a real life situation, Congress/Parliament would not adopt a Codex-equivalent simply because the masses would politically hang them for it. What do you know; democracy is useful after all

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Argumentum ad populum is popular here.

True, but its such a shame that 40k is not a democracy, because if it were, the legion system would be upheld. After all, in a real life situation, Congress/Parliament would not adopt a Codex-equivalent simply because the masses would politically hang them for it. What do you know; democracy is useful after all

Are you talking about a democratic voting in-universe, or as in the fluff being altered to appease 40k fan community?

The legion system would most definitely not have been upheld, if it came down to a democratic vote.
Dorn only had the backing of two of his brothers, while Guilliman had Corax, Khan and the entire bunch of the High lords of Terra behind him.
Since the high lords are the ruling body of the imperium, then the imperium too will follow in line and take the same stance as Roboute, hence why imperial ships shot at Dorn’s fleet and not Guilliman’s.

Dorn never had a chance at winning anything, and with time he too, more or less saw the wisdom in Guilliman’s plan anyway.

Besides, at that timeline the legions had already made mankind suffer greatly. The Imperium would most certainly never trust the Astartes with that kind of power ever again.

Only reason Dorn relented is because he saw enough of brothers fighting brothers, and didn't want another civil war if it could be avoided. Says right in the BT codex fluff. Not because he saw wisdom in his control freak brother's codex, hence why the BTs are considered a non-codex chapter, also why they have so many numbers the high lords of terra can't track and count them.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Only reason Dorn relented is because he saw enough of brothers fighting brothers, and didn't want another civil war if it could be avoided. Says right in the BT codex fluff. Not because he saw wisdom in his control freak brother's codex, hence why the BTs are considered a non-codex chapter, also why they have so many numbers the high lords of terra can't track and count them.

What does it matter what the Black Templars think? They were founded by the cast out Sigismund, a man corrupted by his own need for self-preservation.
It’s no surprise that they are so opposed to the codex, when you take into account what kind of man he was.

Dorn stayed with the imperial Fists, who in turn embraced the codex fully (under Dorn’s supervision).
That says a lot more about Dorn stance towards the codex, than the BTs own tall tales

Yet the Black Templars get gak done. So, I say we go with the group that actually does something useful.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Yet the Black Templars get gak done. So, I say we go with the group that actually does something useful.

Sure. I never claimed otherwise.

 Redcruisair wrote:

Dorn stayed with the imperial Fists, who in turn embraced the codex fully (under Dorn’s supervision).
That says a lot more about Dorn stance towards the codex, than the BTs own tall tales

Dorn appeared to embrace the codex fully, but he was initially against it. he caved in only when it became clear that he was courting a second civil war, one which the ultra marines would have won since they did not participate in the heresy, and the imperial fists had suffered heavy casualties.

You should also note, that there are 3 main Successor chapters to the Imperial fists, the imperial fists themselves, the crimson fists, and the Black Templars. With the exception of the crimson fists (and them until recently), all 3 successor chapters are/were space based, that is to say, since they have no fixed homeworld (terra being the 'official' homeworld of the IF's) it is impossible to know just how many imperial fists, or black templars there are. The black templars are quite obviously not a codex chapter, but who is to say the imperial fists don't massively outnumber them? who would know?

 Redcruisair wrote:
They were founded by the cast out Sigismund, a man corrupted by his own need for self-preservation.
It’s no surprise that they are so opposed to the codex, when you take into account what kind of man he was.

Dorn stayed with the imperial Fists, who in turn embraced the codex fully (under Dorn’s supervision).
That says a lot more about Dorn stance towards the codex, than the BTs own tall tales

Would they not have been founded by Dorn who chose Sigismund to lead the Templars?

I get where you are coming from in regards to Sigismunds self preservation; but is that the actual case though? I'm not sure if this was for self preservation or more fear of not being remembered, I would go with the later. Either seem very shallow reasons and I would not expect either from Sigismund personally.

We also do not know the whole story yet, we have Dorns reprimand and apparent outcasting of Sigismund, but then we have him being elected the Emperor Champion by Dorn. Possibly Dorn made Sigismund Champion so he could die in battle and cleanse himself of the wrong doing that Dorn deemed he had done.

madtankbloke wrote:
Dorn appeared to embrace the codex fully, but he was initially against it. he caved in only when it became clear that he was courting a second civil war.

Dorn was against the codex because he had a hard time giving up the ideas of the crusade.
The legion was the last memory Dorn had of the good old times and Guilliman wanting to take that away from him, of course, did not sit well with the man in yellow.

There wasn’t really any logical reason for his refusal of the codex.
Dorn was grieving over the loss of his father, and he led his emotion cloud his judgement.

He embraced the codex fully once he was out of his depression.

madtankbloke wrote:
one which the ultra marines would have won since they did not participate in the heresy, and the imperial fists had suffered heavy casualties..

Stop right here. Claiming that Ultramarines got through the war even relatively unharmed is a god damn fallacy and you know it.

madtankbloke wrote:
The black templars are quite obviously not a codex chapter, but who is to say the imperial fists don't massively outnumber them? who would know?

I think you should post some evidence along with your nonsensical speculations. That would be very nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Would they not have been founded by Dorn who chose Sigismund to lead the Templars?

I get where you are coming from in regards to Sigismunds self preservation; but is that the actual case though? I'm not sure if this was for self preservation or more fear of not being remembered, I would go with the later. Either seem very shallow reasons and I would not expect either from Sigismund personally.

We also do not know the whole story yet, we have Dorns reprimand and apparent outcasting of Sigismund, but then we have him being elected the Emperor Champion by Dorn. Possibly Dorn made Sigismund Champion so he could die in battle and cleanse himself of the wrong doing that Dorn deemed he had done.

Sigismund was guilty of being more concerned with seeking glory and personal remembrance, rather than fulfilling his duty to his Primarch and legion.
But as you have already said, there is more to the story between Dorn and Sigismund that we have not yet seen.

 Redcruisair wrote:

Sigismund was guilty of being more concerned with seeking glory and personal remembrance, rather than fulfilling his duty to his Primarch and legion.
But as you have already said, there is more to the story between Dorn and Sigismund that we have not yet seen.

This is certainly how it is coming across at the moment, but it just doesn't sit right.

Sigismund isn't Horus right

 Eetion wrote:
Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,

And who would the legions actually bother to listen to? They didn't listen to the Emperor, their fething father figure and the lord and commander of the entire Imperium, why would they listen to a mere human?

Might as well wish for sunshine and rainbows to guide everyone's path to victory.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

Sigismund was guilty of being more concerned with seeking glory and personal remembrance, rather than fulfilling his duty to his Primarch and legion.
But as you have already said, there is more to the story between Dorn and Sigismund that we have not yet seen.

This is certainly how it is coming across at the moment, but it just doesn't sit right.

Sigismund isn't Horus right

Could it be that the legendary founder of the Black Templars in all secret is a closet traitor?

Hmm, what a delicious thought.

Not traitor Sigismund just bent the rules.

 Melissia wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,

And who would the legions actually bother to listen to? They didn't listen to the Emperor, their fething father figure and the lord and commander of the entire Imperium, why would they listen to a mere human?

Actually I am pretty sure the loyal legions did listen to the Emperor.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,

And who would the legions actually bother to listen to? They didn't listen to the Emperor, their fething father figure and the lord and commander of the entire Imperium, why would they listen to a mere human?

Actually I am pretty sure the loyal legions did listen to the Emperor.

Agreed.

The Legions would have operated with oversight, this may have come from oversight, perhaps from their peers, perhaps the Inquistion with bodyguards from other legions.
But let's look at RGs answer to disobedience and not listening to orders. Make them all independent and autonomous with zero oversight from anyone. They can and do anything they like, he simply removed the requirement to listen for them.

As for a vote on the codex. Dorn was still off dragging iron warrio from the Imeprium, guilleman aquired his support without dorn being present or even aware their was a 'vote'. That is not a democratic vote. That its indicative of a much more deceptive and insidious form of government. This should have been dealt with after the securing of the imperium, not behind closed doors while the major player in terras defence and 'warmaster' was out doing his job. Had the proposal actually been debated with both sides present the result may not have been clear cut.

And yes dorn resigned, accepted the codex and stood down preventing another civil war. I have yet to read any accounts of RG going 'whoa whoa slow down, let's get round the table and see if we can reach a compromise or something, I'd value your input rogal' when the altercation happened.
It was his way, or thhe highway. Read into that to give you an insight into the kind of man he was.
So dorn reluctantly accepts the codex and almost branded a traitor and essentially forced into it. Capitulation or civil war. He will be monitored, constantly assessed to ensure compliiance. If he doesn't accept it whole heartedly then what risk to the recovering imperium. Forced compliance does not mean agreement.

Now we have a thgousand chapters with no oversight of any form whatsoever beyond what the chapter implements themselves and the gene seed tithe.

As I said rg pushed his influence with the codex, and it came at the expense of their capability.

Yes he likely isolated corruption, with the chapters but did nothing to ensure its prevention. That could have been achieved with the legions, and also been far easier to organise, oversee and monitor

 Eetion wrote:


As for a vote on the codex. Dorn was still off dragging iron warrio from the Imeprium, guilleman aquired his support without dorn being present or even aware their was a 'vote'.

Putting the Codex was never a vote. The High Lords of Terra, the rulers of the Imperium as the Emperor desired, ordered Guilliman to create the new system. As far as we know Guilliman didn't necessarily have anything to do with making it happen. He was just doing what he was told.

Now we have a thgousand chapters with no oversight of any form whatsoever beyond what the chapter implements themselves and the gene seed tithe.

What makes you think the Legions would allow such keen oversight? They're all brothers-in-arms, afterall. They would not be happy if there was constant attempts to examine them very closely. It's also unlikely that they'd be keen on letting others pass juidgement on their brothers and say "you might be tainted, time to be taken away\forbidden to stay in command". It would be very easy to accidently push the situation into Space Marines against the Inquisition (or whoever is supposed to be overseeing them).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Eetion wrote:


As for a vote on the codex. Dorn was still off dragging iron warrio from the Imeprium, guilleman aquired his support without dorn being present or even aware their was a 'vote'.

Putting the Codex was never a vote. The High Lords of Terra, the rulers of the Imperium as the Emperor desired, ordered Guilliman to create the new system. As far as we know Guilliman didn't necessarily have anything to do with making it happen. He was just doing what he was told.

Now we have a thgousand chapters with no oversight of any form whatsoever beyond what the chapter implements themselves and the gene seed tithe.

What makes you think the Legions would allow such keen oversight? They're all brothers-in-arms, afterall. They would not be happy if there was constant attempts to examine them very closely. It's also unlikely that they'd be keen on letting others pass juidgement on their brothers and say "you might be tainted, time to be taken away\forbidden to stay in command". It would be very easy to accidently push the situation into Space Marines against the Inquisition (or whoever is supposed to be overseeing them).

It's a stretch to suggest that Guilliman didn't have anything to do with the Codex. "Just doing what he was told" doesn't make sense.

Everything else you wrote is correct.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Eetion wrote:


As for a vote on the codex. Dorn was still off dragging iron warrio from the Imeprium, guilleman aquired his support without dorn being present or even aware their was a 'vote'.

Putting the Codex was never a vote. The High Lords of Terra, the rulers of the Imperium as the Emperor desired, ordered Guilliman to create the new system. As far as we know Guilliman didn't necessarily have anything to do with making it happen. He was just doing what he was told.

Now we have a thgousand chapters with no oversight of any form whatsoever beyond what the chapter implements themselves and the gene seed tithe.

What makes you think the Legions would allow such keen oversight? They're all brothers-in-arms, afterall. They would not be happy if there was constant attempts to examine them very closely. It's also unlikely that they'd be keen on letting others pass juidgement on their brothers and say "you might be tainted, time to be taken away\forbidden to stay in command". It would be very easy to accidently push the situation into Space Marines against the Inquisition (or whoever is supposed to be overseeing them).

Yet Guilleman made the changes regardless with no imput from his fellows. Just because a new system is requested does not mean decimation is required. Simply reassessment. seperation from army and navy... tasked as military units and not defacto overlords,

I dont think the Legions would have objected to supervison... i dont think any of them expected the events of the Heresy and Horus turning traitor. Oversight by their peers would have been accepted, they may have seconded troops to oversee other Legions, they may have autorised formation of a chapter with this specific purpose. But given the choice of decimation or oversight, they would not refuse the latter.


Right now thanks to Guillemans reforms, they have no oversight and lack the resources to respond to any significant threat without trusting another chapter responds, which is no guarantee as a Chapter Master has zero authority over another, no capacity to oversee another chapter, ensured his forces became the bulk of the new Chapters, hampering the other Legions from truly recovering.

RGs response to eigning in the Legions was to break them up into lesser effective formations, and allow them even more freedom than before. What he did was cripple the Imperiums best weapon, and in my opinion he did it to further his influence and ensured his forces became the bulk of the new Chapters, hampering the other Legions from truly recovering,

The high Lords may have tasked him with reorganising, but he was planning the Imperium Secundus long before that request, he had pushed his codex prior to the heresy and his tactics with the likes of Alpharius.

From the get go the man had a track record of trying to control his brothers, control, influence and persuade them to his cause. This wouldnt have been any different with the high lords. The Imperium is broken, and RG would be all to keen to take the lead in its reconstruction.

codex. smaller groups can accomplish much more tasks than 1 big group.

 Traejun wrote:

It's a stretch to suggest that Guilliman didn't have anything to do with the Codex. "Just doing what he was told" doesn't make sense.

I meant that I don't necessarily think he, for instance, pushed it through the High Lords of Terra. Regardless of him, the Legions would have been broken down (or at least, the High Lords would have tried to break them down).

Eetion wrote:Simply reassessment. seperation from army and navy... tasked as military units and not defacto overlords,

Perhaps. Either way, I doubt he had a choice about splitting up the Legions. It's not the sort of massive change that the High Lords would have overlooked. The High Lords were concerned about people, Space Marine or otherwise, holding too much power and turning against the Imperium. Keeping the Legions whole but dividing up the Imperial Army would have just made the Space Marines comparatively even more powerful. Decimation is the wrong word to use in my opinion. It implies that the 'excess' were killed. They weren't. They were merely organised into a different fighting structure.

I dont think the Legions would have objected to supervison... i dont think any of them expected the events of the Heresy and Horus turning traitor. Oversight by their peers would have been accepted, they may have seconded troops to oversee other Legions, they may have autorised formation of a chapter with this specific purpose. But given the choice of decimation or oversight, they would not refuse the latter.

It's the level of scrutiny you're talking about though. The level of power over them they're giving to someone else (who could well turn traitor themselves). Immediately following the Heresy, I suspect at least some of the Primarchs would have been angry about the suggestion of them being disloyal anyway. After the Primarchs were gone? Other Space Marines, especially a Chapter set up specifically for this sort of thing, would still have been outsiders. Not to mention they would likely be distrusted and shunned. They'd have to be present for years to detect Chaos corruption and even that's not necessarily enough. Look at the Custodes in 'The First Heretic'.

Right now thanks to Guillemans reforms, they have no oversight and lack the resources to respond to any significant threat without trusting another chapter responds, which is no guarantee as a Chapter Master has zero authority over another, no capacity to oversee another chapter, ensured his forces became the bulk of the new Chapters, hampering the other Legions from truly recovering.

The high Lords of Terra can give orders to Space Marine Chapters though, and Armageddon demonstrated that they can work together. However, it's not affordable to concentrate Legion-size strength Space Marines. They're already spread too thin. Using that many against a single threat loses other territory, so it would only be done in absolute emergencies (i.e. when the Beast attacked the Imperium).

The high Lords may have tasked him with reorganising, but he was planning the Imperium Secundus long before that request, he had pushed his codex prior to the heresy and his tactics with the likes of Alpharius.

We don't know why he was planning Imperium Secundus or what was actually meant by it. The Codex at that point was about strategy and tactics, not about dividing up the Legions. I'd imagine most if not all of the Primarchs discussed tactics. It would be common ground between all of them (well, maybe not Angron quite so much). As for the whole thing with Alpharius, Guilliman was right. Alpharius was wasting time and the manpower of a soon-to-be-made-compliant world just to prove he and his Legion were good at tactics. It was boasting, nothing more.

This wouldnt have been any different with the high lords. The Imperium is broken, and RG would be all to keen to take the lead in its reconstruction.

I'm unsure of how much he tried to control his brothers. You've got the Codex (which included tactics from the other Primarchs) and one disagreement with Alpharius, which was about him being inefficient (and if I recall correctly, Horus was the only (or one of the only) Primarchs to actually praise him for his handling of that battle). Sure, Guilliman probably would have been keen to lead the reconstruction. He was, after all, the most qualified of the Primarchs and likely anyone else left standing to reunite the Imperium. He was efficient, coolheaded, had prior experience with running an empire and was a superb strategist and logistics expert. Frankly, he was the best man for the job at that time and as far as we know he never tried to seize power.

As for Guilliman manipulating the situation to ensure his geneseed was the most used, he had little way of knowing that it would actually be used that much. Presumably it was only after the Horus Heresy that the Dark Angels started to be less trusted and so their geneseed used less often.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,

And who would the legions actually bother to listen to? They didn't listen to the Emperor, their fething father figure and the lord and commander of the entire Imperium, why would they listen to a mere human?

Actually I am pretty sure the loyal legions did listen to the Emperor.

Occasionally, yes.

Almost always actually.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Traejun wrote:

It's a stretch to suggest that Guilliman didn't have anything to do with the Codex. "Just doing what he was told" doesn't make sense.

I meant that I don't necessarily think he, for instance, pushed it through the High Lords of Terra. Regardless of him, the Legions would have been broken down (or at least, the High Lords would have tried to break them down).

Eetion wrote:Simply reassessment. seperation from army and navy... tasked as military units and not defacto overlords,

Perhaps. Either way, I doubt he had a choice about splitting up the Legions. It's not the sort of massive change that the High Lords would have overlooked. The High Lords were concerned about people, Space Marine or otherwise, holding too much power and turning against the Imperium. Keeping the Legions whole but dividing up the Imperial Army would have just made the Space Marines comparatively even more powerful. Decimation is the wrong word to use in my opinion. It implies that the 'excess' were killed. They weren't. They were merely organised into a different fighting structure.

I dont think the Legions would have objected to supervison... i dont think any of them expected the events of the Heresy and Horus turning traitor. Oversight by their peers would have been accepted, they may have seconded troops to oversee other Legions, they may have autorised formation of a chapter with this specific purpose. But given the choice of decimation or oversight, they would not refuse the latter.

It's the level of scrutiny you're talking about though. The level of power over them they're giving to someone else (who could well turn traitor themselves). Immediately following the Heresy, I suspect at least some of the Primarchs would have been angry about the suggestion of them being disloyal anyway. After the Primarchs were gone? Other Space Marines, especially a Chapter set up specifically for this sort of thing, would still have been outsiders. Not to mention they would likely be distrusted and shunned. They'd have to be present for years to detect Chaos corruption and even that's not necessarily enough. Look at the Custodes in 'The First Heretic'.

Right now thanks to Guillemans reforms, they have no oversight and lack the resources to respond to any significant threat without trusting another chapter responds, which is no guarantee as a Chapter Master has zero authority over another, no capacity to oversee another chapter, ensured his forces became the bulk of the new Chapters, hampering the other Legions from truly recovering.

The high Lords of Terra can give orders to Space Marine Chapters though, and Armageddon demonstrated that they can work together. However, it's not affordable to concentrate Legion-size strength Space Marines. They're already spread too thin. Using that many against a single threat loses other territory, so it would only be done in absolute emergencies (i.e. when the Beast attacked the Imperium).

The high Lords may have tasked him with reorganising, but he was planning the Imperium Secundus long before that request, he had pushed his codex prior to the heresy and his tactics with the likes of Alpharius.

We don't know why he was planning Imperium Secundus or what was actually meant by it. The Codex at that point was about strategy and tactics, not about dividing up the Legions. I'd imagine most if not all of the Primarchs discussed tactics. It would be common ground between all of them (well, maybe not Angron quite so much). As for the whole thing with Alpharius, Guilliman was right. Alpharius was wasting time and the manpower of a soon-to-be-made-compliant world just to prove he and his Legion were good at tactics. It was boasting, nothing more.

This wouldnt have been any different with the high lords. The Imperium is broken, and RG would be all to keen to take the lead in its reconstruction.

I'm unsure of how much he tried to control his brothers. You've got the Codex (which included tactics from the other Primarchs) and one disagreement with Alpharius, which was about him being inefficient (and if I recall correctly, Horus was the only (or one of the only) Primarchs to actually praise him for his handling of that battle). Sure, Guilliman probably would have been keen to lead the reconstruction. He was, after all, the most qualified of the Primarchs and likely anyone else left standing to reunite the Imperium. He was efficient, coolheaded, had prior experience with running an empire and was a superb strategist and logistics expert. Frankly, he was the best man for the job at that time and as far as we know he never tried to seize power.

As for Guilliman manipulating the situation to ensure his geneseed was the most used, he had little way of knowing that it would actually be used that much. Presumably it was only after the Horus Heresy that the Dark Angels started to be less trusted and so their geneseed used less often.

We don't know what the high lords requested. Something as simple as reformation of the imperiums armed forces has a wide ranging remit.

Yes the overseers would be viewed with suspician but that's the point. And yes sometimes it may not be enough, but its a ssystem with internal checks and balances, and oversight not just from your peers from within the legion, but also oversight from outside. Now this could be brothers from another legion, or whatever.

What do we know of the imperium secundus, it was written by rg prior to the heresy or certainly prior to the battle for terra. What we also know is that it is completely not within rgs remit. Its quite simply not within his jurisdiction. Not his decisions to make. The emperor was still alive, malcador was still alive. You don't plan for things like complete overhaul of the imperiums social function on a whim, just in case you might need to.

Reading knf and yes guilleman seems rather likeable. But at the same time is character flaw is rather obvious, its a control issue, he has absolutely to micromanage everything and when that is taken away from him on maccragges honour he stands at a window trying to collate data, its not a terrible flaw but consistently throughout the book he shows a desire for knowledge and order, and involves the UM in anything he sees fit to ensure things 'go smoothly' and don't 'escalate out of his control'
This attitude isn't just going to go away after the heresy. We don't even know that the High Lords were in place. I suspect not, I suspect that the High lords were brought together as heads of their respective organisations by RG to dish out orders and organise rebuildin to their various departments. That the High Lords were formed because of the Heresy and the fact they were the natural choices for rebuilding. We also don't know RGs plan, he may have intended to head up the council before fulgrim offed him.

As for Chapters being more adaptable and wide spread. I will agree that that their more wide spread.
First of all keep in mind (and I'm saying this only once more)... LEGIONS DO NOT GO ROUND IN ONE BIG BLOB! They have demi legios detachments, etc
Let's use an example 2 sectors. Require space marine assistance and 1 is peaceful. 1 is a minor conflict, 1 is a full blown waaagh, the nearest Legion detachment of 10000 marines may decide to deploy 200 for the minor conflict, ignore the peaceful sector, and deploy 6000 for the waaagh leaving 3800 for other responses.
Or in the region we have 10 chapters that might respond.
They will all likely ignore the peaceful region unless its their home.
The chapters might deploy few companies to the minor war. Say ,umbers are comparable. With the larger conflict response is variable, some Chapter masters may decide their chapter isn't the nearest and not repsond. They might not get the astropathic message, but there is no communication between them so they can coordinate their force. As chapters are loathe to risk their entire Chapter, let's assume the each send an average of 6 companies, so 6000 deployed. If their lucky. That leaves an incredibly sketchy reserve. Some chapters may not have any reserve forces left, some conflicts may be ignored by some chapters as its close are to another, not knowing that the other chapter is fully committed.
And then we have no guarantee that the chapter will respond at all.
The advantage a legion has over Chapters is that the right hand knows what the left is doing. It knows what conflicts it has committed to and what resources it has deplyed and where. It can arrange for unit rotation in protracted conflicts,

The chapter system does not. You get why you get and hope its enough.

RG probably did not intend for most chapters to be his, but if you curb other legions recruitment and have a stiuation where his forces count for half of all 2nf founding chapters, its only natural for more um gene seed to be tithed and used. Perpetuating this trend.

Aas for Alpharius I'm afraid your confusing the Eskrador compliance with the disagreement. Just prior to Eskrador RG tried to get Alphy to accept codex doctrine, which he curtly refused over the discussion, cuminating in RG saying something along the lines of 'your Legion will never match the histories and victories of mine'
The Battle for Eskrador was a direct result of guillemans pushing and insult. And yes it was inefficient. But equally it proved to make a point. That Alphy can take down a heavily defended world that had prepared for their assault, with next to no casualties. Would RG be able to make the same claim. But this is besides the point RG sought to influence the AL into accepting his doctrine and through a hissy fit when they refused, along with a snidey remark after. That strikes me as sour grapes. The other primarchs probably thought, why do you do that? But the 'message' was to guilleman.

RG has a control obsession, and he's good at it, and that is not always a bad thing, but he seeks to control things he shouldn't.
How many other legions sought to control an Empire within an Empire (ultramar) and how quick would they receive reprimand if they tried.
Even from KNF it reveals that RG was encouraging his men to take command and admin roles, to govern. He was planning even then to ensure they governed well. The codex system takes this further with Chapter masters also in many cases planetary governors. If a chapter falls then they take their homeworld with them into damnation. Fully 1000 worlds (approx) owe alleigance to the marines, under the legion system that is just 8.

RG controls, implements order, its what he does. He probably would have made a good governor, but it came at the expense of military matters. Dorns forces were first and foremost a military unit. No pretence and governing or ownership. Just duty as a soldier, and his forces were broken not because of military need, but political influence by RG to set himself higher in the Imperium.

I'd side with Guilliman, In my opinion it's too risky to keep a force as devastating as a space marine legion under the control of a single person, at least if a chapter turns traitor then it's just a thousand marines to worry about. If it's a legion then you only have to look at the heresy itself to see how that turns out, yeah granted you'd get loyalists but the amount who'd turn traitor would be phenomenal in the worst case scenario.

It'd wound the crap out of my pride if I was a Primarch to split my legion up but it makes the most amount of sense to me, all that power and pride isn't worth the risks it poses. Chances are it might be wrong decision for some reason unknown to me but if I were there at the time just after the Hersey I'd want to prevent such devastation from ever happening again and in my mind the Codex Astartes would seem the most sensible option.