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Guilliman - peerless administrator, logistician, and strategist. Savior of the Imperium. Legion specialized in conquering the most remote parts of the galaxy and building up systems to rival Terra.

Dorn - whiny masochist with no discernible skills. Night Haunter's bitch. Almost-traitor to the Imperium except he didn't have the balls for that either. Legion specialized in sitting around on Terra, decorating the masonry.

 Omegus wrote:
Guilliman - peerless administrator, logistician, and strategist. Savior of the Imperium. Legion specialized in conquering the most remote parts of the galaxy and building up systems to rival Terra.

Dorn - whiny masochist with no discernible skills. Night Haunter's bitch. Almost-traitor to the Imperium except he didn't have the balls for that either. Legion specialized in sitting around on Terra, decorating the masonry.

Really.

Dorn. Defender, Coordinated trhe defence of terra against horusks forces with the assistance of perturabo and his Iron Warriors. Did his duty as a soldier and general. After the battle hounded the fleeing forces of the warmaster digging out the toughest fortifications. Exemplarary combat record anf list of achievements during heresy.

Guilleman, lucked his way out of Calth (if Mcraggues honour stalled instead of reinitialised) Got slapped by kor Phaeron. Planned prior to the hersy for a new form of govenment. Built up an Empire of his own, schemer and planner, may even go so far as to say planning for treason. Said nothing while navy vessels fired on the imperial Fists instead of brining them into discussions. During the Heresy suffered massively at Calth, not much else. Only came into his own after the rest of the legions had done the work.

 Omegus wrote:
Guilliman - peerless administrator, logistician, and strategist. Savior of the Imperium. Legion specialized in conquering the most remote parts of the galaxy and building up systems to rival Terra.

More like hid in a corner with his generic brand marines waiting for the noise to stop during the siege of Terra, while Dorn's men and others fought and died defending. Get real Guiliman was just a power hungry coward

Even so Guilliman saved the IOM. With the legions one high-ranking Space Marine getting corrupted would be a catastrophe, instead now chapters going rogue is just a bad things. Think 10k. Space Marines going AWOL. That's an almost unstoppable force due to the supporting cast.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Even so Guilliman saved the IOM. With the legions one high-ranking Space Marine getting corrupted would be a catastrophe, instead now chapters going rogue is just a bad things. Think 10k. Space Marines going AWOL. That's an almost unstoppable force due to the supporting cast.

The Horus Heresy ended on the Warmasters Battlebarge when the emperor slew Horus. The remaining traitor legions retreated before the ultra marines, dark angels and spacewolves arrived. In short, The Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars won the decisive battle of the Heresy.
Sure, the fighting continued for some time afterwards, but the Traitor forces had suffered a decisive defeat, and retreated to the eye of terror. All the ultra Marines did (and did it well) was clean up the mess that was left. They did not win the war, the war had already been won. and the only reason the Ultra Marines were in any position to take the lead after the Heresy, was because they had suffered the fewest casualties, were already the largest Legion any way, and took no meaningful role in the Heresy to begin with. Guilliman didn't save the IOM, Sanguinus, Rogal Dorn, Jaghati Khan and the Emperor did.

The main reason that 9 Legions going rogue was such a bad thing wasn't that they had a massive number of marines (a bit of a problem i will admit) but that The imperial Army, which at that time consisted of the army and navy, was under the direct command of the Legions, so when the Legions went, A MASSIVE number of ships and troops went with them as well. you are talking thousands of cruisers and battleships, and millions, if not tens of millions of soldiers. While the stories may concentrate on the Drama surrounding the Primarchs, and just how awesome space marines were, they were the tip of the spear. when Horus went rogue, along with 9 full legions, that force represented around half of the imperiums mobile forces.

Billions of soldiers. The Space Marines are just the glory-boys, the tip of the spear, while the Imperial Guard is the spear-shaft and the Imperial Navy is the man holding the spear.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:

More like hid in a corner with his generic brand marines waiting for the noise to stop during the siege of Terra, while Dorn's men and others fought and died defending. Get real Guiliman was just a power hungry coward

No he wasn't.

You know, you guys are giving me great ammunition for future insults to throw at the legions.

So why do you hate Space Marines Melissia?

If I did hate Space Marines, it would be because of you asking that question

I don’t always rescue the Imperium from destruction

But when I do, I make sure to annoy the fandom with it

 Omegus wrote:
Guilliman - peerless administrator, logistician, and strategist. Savior of the Imperium. Legion specialized in conquering the most remote parts of the galaxy and building up systems to rival Terra.

Dorn - whiny masochist with no discernible skills. Night Haunter's bitch. Almost-traitor to the Imperium except he didn't have the balls for that either. Legion specialized in sitting around on Terra, decorating the masonry.

You seem to be out of touch


Guilliman - plotted to overthrow the Imperium and kill any loyalist who got in his way. Fought one battle in the Horus Heresy . An almost traitor to the Imperium by his own words.

Dorn- The chosen of the Emperor, trusted by the Emperor to lead the armies of the Imperium against Horus. Declared the Emperor's Vanguard. Specialized in siege warfare, honor, and unshakeable loyalty. Credited by Horus to have one of the finest legions, the only legion that could stalemate the Luna Wolves in a mass and long term battle. Commanded the Defense of Terra in the largest battle and most important HH battle. Would rather give up his command then kill even a single loyal soldier.

Guilliman didn't fight one battle in the Horus Heresy, he fought more.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman didn't fight one battle in the Horus Heresy, he fought more.

Calth and thats it. The next time he fought a battle was against the Alpha Legion that occurred after the HH

Void, please try to make a better argument besides ""no he wasn't" or "he fought more." Lore supports Galdos, and looking at all the lore I'm hard pressed to believe Guiliman wasn't a power hungry coward. He waited until the noise stopped in the HH, saw his brother legions weakened and took advantage of that for power.

 Galdos wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman didn't fight one battle in the Horus Heresy, he fought more.

Calth and thats it. The next time he fought a battle was against the Alpha Legion that occurred after the HH

I think it’s a wee bit too early to be making such a bold claim.
The HH series hasn't even ended yet, you know?

 Galdos wrote:
Calth and thats it. The next time he fought a battle was against the Alpha Legion that occurred after the HH

Nope, you're wrong.

Guilliman personally enters the field of battle against Lorgar and Angron in Betrayer, set after the Battle of Calth.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
Calth and thats it. The next time he fought a battle was against the Alpha Legion that occurred after the HH

Nope, you're wrong.

Guilliman personally enters the field of battle against Lorgar and Angron in Betrayer, set after the Battle of Calth.

What's the source. Is it the novella? Can't say iv had access.

But the whole point of RG is his legion was vast. Horus was wanting him out of the way of the main fight. Hence why korphaeron was sent to slow him.
I agree he probably fought less battles however and mostly mopping up after, but so did Dorn. In fact dorn was still mopping up after RG scurried off to terra to get the codex support.

The fact the imperium secundus was even planned for and warned his legion about shows at least some alterior motive beyond loyalty.

 Omegus wrote:


Dorn - whiny masochist with no discernible skills. Night Haunter's bitch. Almost-traitor to the Imperium except he didn't have the balls for that either. Legion specialized in sitting around on Terra, decorating the masonry.

Dude.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Nope, you're wrong.

Guilliman personally enters the field of battle against Lorgar and Angron in Betrayer, set after the Battle of Calth.

Girlyman ups, Guilliman wasn't a power-hungry coward, I totallu agree BUT to me seems like he after the Heresy proclaimed himself the second Emprah and started to use the iron fist with his allies.
So, what, Dorn that by the Emprah's word was the MOST loyal and unbreakable decided to don't use your Codex, why did you bombard him??

IMHO: Guilliman did good thing, but the Codex Astartes and the methods with he imposed it were WRONG.

My 2 cents

I can agree with that. But the aim for reducing treachery wasn't considered. All the codex does is reduce the damage a chapter can do. Both loyal and rogue. The fact chapters operate completly independent of any outside command structure is testament to this. No monitoring, no problems.

I also don't believe he was a coward. A manipulator and politician yes. Sore at not being selected as warmaster when horus got the job, and then dorn after.
The man has an ego problem and a control freak. The codex had this in mind. My way or no way attitude.
He was Ratifying his ideas and tactics, proving himself right. Despite alpharius disillusioning him of any such notions of his codex supremacy.
In his codex trials (I forget the short story name) only a superior mind such as horus should be able to counter it after the apparent death of alpharius, the alphas soundly thrashed him, whilst believing them leaderless. Thast got to be ego damaging.

Guilleman was a good strategist, but there's more to him than is let on so far. A personally think its a lust for power. Maybe a trait for him carried over from his youth, son of a consul, father murdered by the other consul who shared power.
Noble bearing, and a stark lesson that power isn't shared.

Could explain why dorn was essentially deposed whilst away from terra.
Guilleman did to dorn what gallan did to konor (but without the killing)

But politicians are cowards

Martial prowess
Guilliman - holds his own against ascending Angron for a while
Dorn - schooled by Kurze

Guilliman wins.

Special skill
Guilliman - being an example of a "perfect" Primarch
Dorn - being not as good as Perturabo

Guilliman wins.

Legion assignment
Ultramarines - pacifying the most dangerous and remote corner of the galaxy
Imperial Fists - guarding the most protected planet in the galaxy

Guilliman wins.

Legion colors
Ultramarines - regal blue
Imperial Fists - urine yellow

Guilliman wins.

Actions leading up to Siege of Terra
Guilliman - preparing for all eventualities and organizing the counter offensive. Dealing with betrayal/ambush from Word Bearers and World Eaters.
Dorn - internal monologues trying to convince himself he is not scared of his traitor brothers, executing Remembrancers for having demoralizing information, moping about having to remove decorations from the masonry

Guilliman wins.

Actions during Siege of Terra
Guilliman - remains to be seen HH novels, stuck in the Warp on his way along with Russ and Lion per older material
Dorn - being lost on Horus' flagship

Tie.

Actions after Siege of Terra
Guilliman - leading the Scouring, reorganizing the Imperium so another civil war cannot happen
Dorn - getting thousands of his men pointlessly killed in the Iron Cage, almost starting another civil war

Guilliman wins.

Death
Guilliman - poisoned by Daemon Primarch Fulgrim who was killing Primarchs before he was a daemon, body preserved in the heart of Ultramar (the jewel of the Imperium) to provide inspiration to Space Marines and mortals alike
Dorn - got himself killed by some scrubs on a Chaos cruiser, only hand bones remain for Imperial Fists to doodle on

Guilliman wins.

Legacy
Guilliman - half a million plus Space Marines who carry his gene-seed
Dorn - one Chapter of frothing maniacs who make the Ecclesiarchy look mild, another Chapter on the verge of extinction, and Imperial Fists still sitting around on Terra torturing themselves with pain gloves

Guilliman wins.

Dorn was the ultimate defender you loon, there only an idiot would choose the merely competent Guilliman over Dorn.

As for their colors, it's the color of potato-chips vs the color of color-wash or dish-wash.

 Omegus wrote:
Martial prowess
Guilliman - psy-raped by Kor Phearon
Dorn - sucker attacked by Kurze

Tie.

Special skill
Guilliman - logistics
Dorn - Emperor's pretorian, defence

Dorn wins

Legion assignment
Ultramarines - ruling and drinking wine
Imperial Fists - guarding the most cool dude in the universe
Dorn wins.

Legion colors
Ultramarines - smurfish blue
Imperial Fists - gold yellow

Dorn wins.

Actions leading up to Siege of Terra
Guilliman - preparing for all eventualities and organizing the counter offensive. Dealing with betrayal/ambush from Word Bearers and World Eaters.
Dorn - sending the retribution fleet to attack Perturabo

Robby wins because of the new fluff

Actions during Siege of Terra
Guilliman - remains to be seen
Dorn -defending the terra

Dorn wins

Actions after Siege of Terra
Guilliman - leading the Scouring, reorganizing the Imperium so another civil war cannot happen
Dorn - getting thousands of his men pointlessly killed in the Iron Cage, almost starting another civil war

Guilliman wins.

Death
Guilliman - poisoned by Daemon Primarch Fulgrim who was killing Primarchs before he was a daemon, body preserved in the heart of Ultramar (the jewel of the Imperium) to provide inspiration to Space Marines and mortals alike
Dorn - got himself killed by some scrubs on a Chaos cruiser, only hand bones remain for Imperial Fists to doodle on

Guilliman wins.

Legacy
Guilliman - half a million plus Space Marines who carry his gene-seed
Dorn - one Chapter of frothing maniacs who make the Ecclesiarchy look mild, another Chapter on the verge of extinction, and Imperial Fists still sitting around on Terra torturing themselves with pain gloves

Guilliman wins.

FTFY - in some things I agree in some not....

You and Beavis (would that make you Butthead? ) need to stop stalking me. It's getting creepy.

 Omegus wrote:
You and Beavis (would that make you Butthead? ) need to stop stalking me. It's getting creepy.

Sorry then I was being only polite....I'll stop commenting your posts - cheers...

I was joking. Mostly. Wy so serious?

Hee, hee, hee, heyh Butt-Marko, watch Omeron he is asswiping himself again. Heehee, heehee, he looks like Clint Eastwood making a pony-expression.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Hee, hee, hee, heyh Butt-Marko, watch Omeron he is asswiping himself again. Heehee, heehee, he looks like Clint Eastwood making a pony-expression.

Yeah - but really...Too much is too much...When discussion becomes degraded like this (and like in SW thread) it's best to bow out say goodnight....I'm too old for this crap and I have to work tomorrow....