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Macharius' crusade reached the borders of the Crusade-era Imperium, did it not? I vaguely recall reading something like that in the 6E rulebook .. will have to re-read that section. The older Guard 'dexes may also offer some info there.

Macharius went to the edge of the Astronomicon. That's why his men dared not go further.

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
It seems to be a fairly common theme inside the fandom, though. "Ecclesiarchy = bad, Mechanicus = good".

It's an IRL attitude. It's how Richard Dawkins sells his gospel of "reason."

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
The guardsman cant be counted upon,.. they turn traitor real quick most of the times...

Again, Lord Solar Mecharius accomplished quite a lot. Yes, at the end, his men did not dare go further. But a thousand worlds conquered in seven years is pretty astounding, even by Primarch standards.

True, but the exception is a single event,.. While on the other hand guardsman turn traitor almost daily

A guardsman turning traitor is of little consequence. A Space Marine turning traitor is much worse. That's why they are separate in everything and only deal with each other in terms of their officers.

United we stand, divided we fall. (song from Two Steps from Hell)
'nuff said

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
United we stand, divided we fall. (song from Two Steps from Hell)
'nuff said

And the motto of the English Steel-worker association if my history-books are to be believed.

Beaviz81 wrote:A guardsman turning traitor is of little consequence.

Especially as the Imperial Guard doesn't own any interstellar transports.

It's not the Imperial Army anymore. That one was subject to reforms just as much as the Astartes.

 Lynata wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:A guardsman turning traitor is of little consequence.

Especially as the Imperial Guard doesn't own any interstellar transports.

It's not the Imperial Army anymore. That one was subject to reforms just as much as the Astartes.

Exactly, worst case scenario is Vraks. Before that you risked having the Imperial Army going berzerk.

It's tough coming into this post after so points have been made and then overlooked as other points came up.

The first thing I would like to say is that the game is supposed to be a grim, dark, gothic universe where "No matter what happens, you will not be remembered" to quote the BRB. That kind of scale in tandem with that setting doesn't leave a lot of room for optimism, or even for the idea of improvement. Now, like it or not, that is the setting of the game and on some level it either appeals to all of us that play or appealed to us at one point. I hate to use the term because a lot of people can spin it negatively, but for better or worse, that is the status quo.

If there were hope that things could improve, or that a solution to the Imperium's woes were attainable, than it would disrupt the setting. It would destroy the status quo.

While that may not be sufficient to explain how grim things are from an in-universe Imperial perspective, but it alone explains to me why the Imperium was written that was from the meta perspective.

Part of me (as an American) agrees with Manchu and his assertion that the ultimate goal of the foundings was to limit the amount of power a single person could wield. That idea is morally comforting and pragmatic in a way, but falls apart if looked at from afar. I cannot make a claim as to the nature of power itself, but in every historical context that we as humans can recount, it is always wielded by one person in favor of others. The difference is not how much power, but who. Kinds or Tryants, Presidents or Dictators. Or... in this context, Primarchs or Chapter Masters. The power they wield is still power, albeit to a lesser degree, but power still and of a dangerous and potentially crippling nature. it is still wielded by fallible, mortal, humans.

The global reduction in "power" is a double edged sword. It wounds both sides equally. While renegade chapters are less of a threat individually, the loyalist chapters are just as "unthreatening" to the forces of Chaos. Also, the enemies mankind faces are not dividing up their forces and reducing their numbers the way the SM chapters are. Tyranids do not number 1000 strong fleets... or even 100,000 strong... but billions or possibly trillions of nids per fleet that we've encountered. tally that with the untold trillions of orks that pillage and plunder sectors in Waaghs so strong that many chapters+IG legions are called to halt. And the fact that Chaos legions are still.... legions.

I think it was a well intentioned move that would in any realistic context, do more harm than good.

I'm having difficulty following your point. The issue is that Legions are much more powerful than Chapters. If a Legion rebels, the potential damage is of a far, far graver magnitude than if a Chapter rebels. Since the HH, some number of Chapters -- whether many or few compared to the overall amount -- have rebelled. And yet in all this time, no such rebellion has rivaled in any sense the threat posed by the HH. The point is inarguable: the Codex Astartes has prevented any further existential threat to the Imperium arising from Space Marines.

And nothing prevents multiple Chapters to work together to face a common foe just like a single Legion would have done. The Inquisition often manages to pull together task forces requisitioned from several Chapters, the High Lords of Terra can authorize temporary Warmasters (or councils with the same degree of authority) to deal with a specific threat, and often enough we have Chapters working together on voluntary basis as a matter of honor. Case in point: 13th Black Crusade --> Astartes Praeses (see addendum to Marine deployments here)

Sure, if you consider all those feuds between the Chapters or the spatial distances between them, it's still not a perfect substitute. But certainly a much safer approach that achieves nearly the same capabilities.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm having difficulty following your point. The issue is that Legions are much more powerful than Chapters. If a Legion rebels, the potential damage is of a far, far graver magnitude than if a Chapter rebels. Since the HH, some number of Chapters -- whether many or few compared to the overall amount -- have rebelled. And yet in all this time, no such rebellion has rivaled in any sense the threat posed by the HH. The point is inarguable: the Codex Astartes has prevented any further existential threat to the Imperium arising from Space Marines.

I believe it was you who argued in another thread that you cannot judge things based on what is not written.. There has been no written account of a unified body posing as great a threat to the Imperium as the HH. But... there never will. The Imperium is safe from such things because its wearing plot armor, not because of the Codex Astartes. The assertion that the Codex is what staves that off is no more founded than saying that its prevented because some random character does a rain dance every Thursday.

Look at it like this. Numerically, prior to the HH, there were ZERO betrayals. And during the HH there were a total of 9 legions that fell. 9 is not a large number, and if the legions numbered 100,000 strong that's 900,000 Marines that turned their back on humanity. Chapters after the Codex are 1,000 strong, and there are many chapters, not all of which are even accounted for or accurately recorded. How many of them have fallen in 10,000 years? Probably quite a few, and as each chapter falls the whole of forces arrayed against humanity is strengthened.

Mankind's finest protectors (SM) are no longer led by 20 of the most supernaturally gifted servants of the emperor. Instead, they are led by normal (by comparison to the Primarchs) Marines who have climbed a ladder of rank to Chapter Master. If anything. It took the combined effort and careful orchestration of all for warp gods to tempt 9 Primarchs from the Emperor. What does it take to make a chapter fall? How many have fallen... a great count more than 9 I would wager. Each one of them adding to the whole of the enemies of man

9 may not be a tall number, but combined with the Legions' numerical size it makes for a whole lot of troops that turned traitor all at once. I mean, we're basically talking almost half of all the armed forces here.

Compared to the Post-Heresy situation - sure, you have individual Marines, companies, even entire Chapters that go rogue. But not all at once, and the Codex Astartes has crippled them sufficiently that the Adepta Sororitas or other Imperial forces can, with a degree of reliability, purge them before they become an actual threat.

If you'd still have Legions, what would you do if their commander suddenly decides he's better off alone, or with the enemy? Even if just one Legion turns its back, 5% sounds much more dangerous than 0.1% (assuming we're sticking to 20 Legions vs 1.000 Chapters), not to mention that "back then" the Legions also had authority over the Imperial Army, meaning Post-HH you'd have rogue elements of the Guard and the Navy in addition to your rogue Legion.

Limiting the extent of such conflicts and minimising potential losses sounds like a fairly smart thing to do - basically, it means the Imperium is planning ahead for the worst case scenario.

Lynata has it right. Add to that the fact that a SM Legion comes with an even more sizable amount of "mortal" troops and ... ugh. EDIT: I see she covered that, actually.

The old "plot armor" argument is meaningless here. Codex Astartes is part of the plot armor.

Causing the breakup in the monolithic legions, into smaller chapters, that down through the ages have each developed their own character, traditions, structure and SOP, has helped to compartmentalize any damage their loss could cause.

Its much harder to subvert 100 chapters than one leader of one legion, also spacemarines have a ripple factor, local troops tend to hold them in awe, and will be much easier to sway the leaders, this again is compartmentalized since a smaller force of marines equals a smaller footprint for this.

And organizing forces for crusades is not that difficult, if the forces are there, its just the IoM is so vast, and trying to hold things together calls for a fire brigade approach.

Now with the IoM structure, it requires traitors in all levels of the command structure, (navy, guard, mechanicus, marines, etc) to fully realize a major rebellion, it was a across the board de-centralization, its just the codex astartes is the most visible.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Reason, logic, and technological certainty: the bases for the Emperor's vision of the future, are all grounds for heresy in the Imperium's current iteration. On the other hand, blind faith and ignorance are encouraged.

Blind faith is a nice tool to enforce conformism, and thus stability. Also, your "Imperial Truth" seems pretty ignorant as well.

Also: Why does your criticism always seems aimed solely at the Ecclesiarchy and not the Mechanicus? That institution is just as religious, has been even during the times of the Great Crusade, and arguably bears a greater responsibility when it comes to the decay of technology - and given the role of technology in culture, in a way also a responsibility to the decay of Imperial culture as a whole.

Good question; the answer is simple: the Emperor proscribed Emperor-worship, but accepted the Mechanicum. And if you haven't noticed, when the Imperium was progressive during the Great Crusade, the Mechanicum was also progressive. But when the Imperium focused on the status quo and became stagnant, so did the Mechanicum. Tech-Priests and their lay followers are still Human; they're still influenced by the greater herd mentality. God, I hate the herd mentality, whether IRL or in fiction.

I always thought they should retcon to around 4-7,000 Battle brothers in a chapter(not including techmarines librarians, honor gaurd, apothecary,chaplains, etc) 1000 seems like it wouldn't be enough to replenish after a major loss and still be able to fight.

amudkipz wrote:
I always thought they should retcon to around 4-7,000 Battle brothers in a chapter(not including techmarines librarians, honor gaurd, apothecary,chaplains, etc) 1000 seems like it wouldn't be enough to replenish after a major loss and still be able to fight.

This is my problem with SM chapters. They are laughably small. Yeah I know they are all supermen but operationally they just simply could not do the things attributed to them.

Also, compared to pre-heresy, sm commanders have been separated from commanding Imperial Guard formations and Imperial Navy fleets. By breaking the sm into 1k strong chapters it really hamstrings any operation that needs say 10k or more marines. It would be far easier to assemble a force that subdivided a legion than hunt around for 10 or 15 far flung chapters and deal with the politics of all these virtually autonomous and insular military units.

Gulliman's subdivision into chapters of 1k marines is ludicrous from a logistic perspective. The fact that the SM did not have access to guard or fleet would have been enough separation of power. The problem is that GW writers have a really terrible time with numbers and their numbers for all kinds of things associated with the background are just silly and really poor examples of science fiction.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Good question; the answer is simple: the Emperor proscribed Emperor-worship, but accepted the Mechanicum. And if you haven't noticed, when the Imperium was progressive during the Great Crusade, the Mechanicum was also progressive. But when the Imperium focused on the status quo and became stagnant, so did the Mechanicum. Tech-Priests and their lay followers are still Human; they're still influenced by the greater herd mentality. God, I hate the herd mentality, whether IRL or in fiction.

The Emperor forbade Lorgar to convert people to him because it was a waste of time and resources, and because he wanted his warriors to actually do a bit of warring. Conversely, he needed the resources and the knowledge that Mars had hoarded, so he just went along with the Tech-Priests' little thing as anything else would've been a waste of time again. There was a crusade to do, after all.
And no, I admit I did not notice. Which great innovations did the Mechanicus make during the Great Crusade? From all I've read, the tech was either leftovers from before the guys on Mars nuked themselves, or the stuff Emps brought along. The Imperium of Man had to rely on STC-recovery and retro-engineering from day 1.

The worlds of the Adeptus Mechanicus, just like Astartes fiefs, are governed in semi-independence from the Adeptus Terra and thus the Imperial Church. I don't see how one could have influenced the other, and I don't see why it should have been necessary. The AdMech has always been a bunch of religious nutjobs whose secrecy and jealousy regarding anything mechanical is the driving force between the Imperium's technological decay. Your "herd mentality" existed in the AdMech first, and the worshippers of the Machine Cult are every bit as zealous as the Ecclesiarchy.

I guess some of the above might depend on what sources we're following, though? I must admit I care little for those HH novels and know little of their contents, instead preferring to collect and read from White Dwarf etc.

amudkipz wrote:1000 seems like it wouldn't be enough to replenish after a major loss and still be able to fight.

Standard Astartes engagements seem to focus around a single Battle Company reinforced with elements of the Reserve - such a task force incurring major losses would not affect the Chapter as a whole too much. Codex-era Marines are supposed to be an auxiliary force helping the Imperial Guard to win wars - ideally they just don't get in any fights where they'd incur major losses to the entire Chapter.
That being said, I believe what really should be looked at is some Chapters' rather ridiculous recruitment rate. In general it seems fine, but some individual Chapters have really strange fluff where you think they'd only be able to replace a single squad of casualties every decade or so. This in itself wouldn't be so problematic if that very same Chapter would just sit tight until they've recovered from their losses, but instead they go zipping through the Imperium, jumping from one battle to the next.
I dunno, maybe somebody just lost perspective there.

And yet during the two centuries of the Great Crusade, more technologies were recovered/developed/improved than in the ten thousand years since. An example is Power Armor: six Mks of Power Armor were developed at the time, while only 2 Mks of Power Armor have been developed since.

As a Wolf player, you may be able to guess that the Codex Astartes doesn't really make sense to me, all chapters should be the same size, but they should be huge, not tiny.


Few Huge ones>lots of small ones

Size does matter

 strybjorn Grimskull wrote:
As a Wolf player, you may be able to guess that the Codex Astartes doesn't really make sense to me, all chapters should be the same size, but they should be huge, not tiny.


Few Huge ones>lots of small ones

Few huge ones means that if just half betray then an incomprehensible amount of damage will occur....oh wait it did and was called the Horus Heresy. The idea of chapters makes perfect sense, in terms of damage limitation and also tactical flexibility. A thousand marines can be used surgically as it is easy to keep track of individuals chapter, squads etc. A legion is a conquering steamroller, which although frickin awesome is harder to use defending the imperium. And space marine chapters always co-ordinate to become legion size strength when a major threat happens like the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the 13th BC and the third war of Armageddon. The results speak for themselves, no major rebellions by SM apart from the badab war since the HH

If the Legions remained as they were the imperium would have fallen long ago. Ignoring the issues of heresy or revolt you have the simple fact that they wouldn't be able to cover enough ground.

You would have had 9 Legions. That's 9 different threats they can respond to. The modern chapters can respond to a 1000 different threats.

If you say 'well the legions would simply split their numbers to cover more ground and detach into task forces' - how is that any different from modern chapters?

The chapters work better than the legions as defensive units. The Imperium has been on the defensive for the past 10,000 years. It's created its empire, it just needs to hold it. The chapters enable it to do this. They're a flexible, mobile force that won't compromise the security of the Imperium.

I don't get this 'legions would give the Imperium the military edge'. There's just as many space marines in the chapters as there would have been in the loyalist legions. There just less concentrated, which is better for the Imperium in all respects. When the force of more than one chapter is required they simple gather more. The legions do nothing better than chapters and would in fact be significantly worse.

 Manchu wrote:
It's an IRL attitude. It's how Richard Dawkins sells his gospel of "reason."

I do agree with Dawkins in RL, here's the problem. While I want real world to be 'the best possible' world (as I judge such things), I certainly don't want 40K to be that! I want it to be the worst possible world.

This is what I do not get about people like Valerian. If they had their way Imperium would be a glorious secular superpower, filled with amazing technology and ruled by wise and unerring Primarchs.
Which would utterly ruin the setting! Don't these people get the point of 40k? It is supposed to be a dystopia!

I agree with crimson, the whole point of the IoM is a backward look at its greatest days...supreme heros, gods walking with men, and it all almost ended by those same beings.

Now normal very flawed men and women try to hold a crumbling massive empire together as it cracks from without and rots from within, but each branch of the IoM's government thinking they have the keys to the salvation of man.

When it comes down to it, I have always thought the lords of terra are both frightened and in awe of the spacemarines, since in defiance to almost every other part of the engine of mankind, the marines stand apart and do their own thing.

It makes them unpredictable, maybe gulliman even thought far enough ahead to know the way to preserve the astartes was a way to make them appear less a threat to the future generations of mankind, and sooth any misgivings as to the pivotal role that renegade spacemarines played in the almost complete downfall of the Imperium.

The Codex may have been written to save his brothers.

40k is a dystopia, but being a religious nutjob doesn't mean the person is an idiot. That's how you survive in the grim future of 40k where it is only war.

Who's to say entire legions would turn? That didn't even happen in the Heresy. Fully 1/3(?) of each traitor legion stayed loyal. I doubt half as many would turn if a non-primarch was in charge. Maybe companies, but I Seriously doubt it would be 10K+ marines just dancing off into the Eye of Terror. It would have been more efficient to elect for a council w/ figure head approach to legion leadership than to split them all up.

Plus they SHOULD rebel and stamp out the Ecclesiarchy. Those dudes are crazy as hell.

Let's just say a Legion comprises 100,000 SM. If 1/3 were to remain loyal, you'd still have 67,000 traitors. So one traitor Legion, just numerically, would consist of about 67 Chapters. Plus it's unified command structure and culture would make it more effective than 67 traitor chapters struggling to cooperate.

Admiral Valerian wrote:And yet during the two centuries of the Great Crusade, more technologies were recovered/developed/improved than in the ten thousand years since. An example is Power Armor: six Mks of Power Armor were developed at the time, while only 2 Mks of Power Armor have been developed since.

Looting STCs recovered in conquest and adopting technology the Emperor gave them isn't invention, and slapping an additional plate of armour on a suit of power armour isn't either. Do you have any actual inventions to list? Do you doubt that the current Imperium wouldn't deploy just as much advanced technology if they'd push out into unclaimed territory as the Emperor did when he set out from Mars?

Imperial technology is derived almost 99% from re-engineering items claimed in war, and 1% from minor and rather obvious improvements to existing systems. This does not change the Mechanicus' resistance towards actual progress.

Also, what Crimson said. I'm here for the Grimdark, and I think you're really missing out if you just throw it all away due to RL convictions, Valerian!