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You're placing a lot of trust in an institution that is responsible for throwing the Imperium into that very decay you are condemning here in the first place.

I'd rather take that superstitious and slowly collapsing empire over no empire at all.

 Lynata wrote:
You're placing a lot of trust in an institution that is responsible for throwing the Imperium into that very decay you are condemning here in the first place.

I'd rather take that superstitious and slowly collapsing empire over no empire at all.

With risk comes progress

 ansacs wrote:
Guilliman doomed the empire to decay and a long drawn out fall. With the legions still assembled the empire still would have spread perhaps having frequent revolts but this sort of spread and turmoil while bad for the individual is what fuels a society and keeps it from stagnating. The current setup is set to maintain status quo therefore the range of results for the future is same to worse with no option for better. With the legions around the result range goes to better to way worse which at least gives a chance to improve. (I sometimes think that this was the true goal of the Chaos gods to create a stagnating empire full of despondent potential worshipers)

I don't see how having Legions would make any difference to the Imperium increasing in size, this is still happening even with Chapters, the problem is maintaining and holding on to the Worlds that are in the Imperium
.

 ansacs wrote:

This is proven by the fact that the empire has been in constant decay for 10,000 years with no upswings in technology or major gains in size. Alternatively they have lost portions of their system to even the Tau...honestly if even 1 legion still existed the Tau would be part of the empire or dead.

I don't think you can blame Guilliman for the Mechanicum and their methods, doesn't it all come down to the teachings of the Omnissiah? The Tau I don't know, you might be right. Maybe their should be an Imperial Astartes army made up of companies from each of the Chapters?

 ansacs wrote:
Additionally the dark angels really are still a legion in all but name. If the supreme grand master calls for the dark angels chapters they will come abandoning everything to do so. However, the only thing worth putting out the call (angering the high lords of Terra) is the fallen so they cannot act openly and deal with threats like the Tau which would be easily dealt with if the legion was given a free hand.

I think that if any of the First Founding chapters called their successors they would come a knocking, there was the instance with the Blood Angels where they called on their Successors and even the Renegade Knights of Blood answered.

But as a poster earlier stated..what happens when a Legion, now bereft of their primarch and emperor, decides they can do things better than those frail and feeble lords of terra, since after all they have the genes of the greatest heros in history in them, why should they not lead , it would be in the best interests of all the little people.

So a legion rebels, or succeeds or what ever, then another legion will have to be sent to deal with them, (more likely 2 or 3 legions don't want to leave it to chance), how many of these mini-heresies can the IoM sustain, and how much devastated worlds would it consume, since a legion will not fight over worthless worlds..forgeworlds, and major ports would be the battle grounds.

Gulliman was looking to the day when there would be no primarchs, and no way to balance the power of so many superhumans with not much humanity left, and the hubris that follows.

Thing is, Guilliman didn't take into account the Imperium's own religiously-imposed stagnation. This is just as destructive as inter-legionary conflicts.

the HH was a inter legion conflict.

Indeed, but I for one believe that the Imperium's stagnation since then has dealt just as much damage.

If it wasn't for the religious side of things the Imperium would have split into a thousand petty empires already. It is the glue, the common ground, that holds it together. The Imperial Truth was doomed as soon as the Lectitio Divinatus started to do the rounds.

You can't have a figure as powerful as the Emperor not held as a God in the eyes of at least some of the people and it only takes a few loose stones to start a landslide.

The fact is that humanity is losing ground, slowly, but losing nonetheless. Having individual chapters may keep the cost of one going rogue at a more manageable one, but I think that's sort of a cheesy argument.


Let's look at the battle of Macragge against the Tyranids, ok? Essentially the Ultramarines were combat ineffective after driving off a splinter fleet. Not only did the Tyranids remove the UM's from the theater of war for two to three hundred years (I forget where I read this, so it may be an inflated number), they succeeded in nearly destroying two battlefleets.

Now, with that information at hand, can anyone really say that if the Ultramarines as a legion had faced the splinter fleet, the outcome would have been far more in favor of the Imperium? Not only that but the legion would not have been crippled for as long as the chapter was aftwards.


Granted there are a crapload of what-ifs, but I think there wouldn't have been so many Black Crusades, Ghaz wouldn't have gotten a second chance at Armageddon, and the Tyranids wouldn't pose nearly the threat they do now, if the legions had remained. Of course, you can argue the 'absolute power corrupts absolutely' thing, but looking at the legions as they were, can people say that had the Primarchs continued to lead them, another civil war would've gone down?

I don't like the idea that fear directed 'ol Robby's decision to make the codex. The Guard does a fine job of holding the line in the absence of the legions, but that's all they do. React to invasions, hold onto what they can, and in the rarer cases, push the enemy back. Just think of what an entire legion could do against something like the Maelstrom, or even the Eye. It would be possible to keep Chaos in check (weird pun), so much to the point that the Imperium could direct large portions of resources towards dealing with the Nid thread.


That was longer than I expected.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But aren't say 10 Chapters of a thousand marines just as capable as a legion, if not more flexible?

No, the lack of a unified command structure would be a major disadvantage. Numerical equivalence does not make for equivalent effectiveness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
You're placing a lot of trust in an institution that is responsible for throwing the Imperium into that very decay you are condemning here in the first place.

This pretty much sums up why Legions needed to go and Chapter, if nothing else, have basically mitigated the severe damage done by Legions.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


You can't have a figure as powerful as the Emperor not held as a God in the eyes of at least some of the people and it only takes a few loose stones to start a landslide.

Apparently, the Emperor himself disagreed with such a view. Even to the point of burning down a whole city, and personally breaking the last priest on Ancient Terra.

The Emperor wrote:

Only when Humanity is free from a religion that teaches us not to question will we see its true brilliance.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
If it wasn't for the religious side of things the Imperium would have split into a thousand petty empires already. It is the glue, the common ground, that holds it together.

This is 100% correct. The hidebound character of Imperial devotion may have its downsides but the advantages are what make the Imperium possible in the first place.

 Manchu wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
You're placing a lot of trust in an institution that is responsible for throwing the Imperium into that very decay you are condemning here in the first place.

This pretty much sums up why Legions needed to go and Chapter, if nothing else, have basically mitigated the severe damage done by Legions.

The decay was caused and propagated by the Imperial Cult.

The imperiums stagnation is also a symptom of its size, its enemies and its internal structure, the HH almost destroyed the IoM, it showed many of the most important leaders remaining that there was something else , out there some force that can almost lay low their own emperor, something to be afraid of in the dark.

And when people are afraid of the dark, they go for faith, faith in something that will save them, and the emperor had already set himself up in that position whether he wanted it or not.

Gulliman had just witnessed almost the death of the IoM, and he did what any reasonable individual would do..take steps to keep it from ever happening again, and the nucleus of the HH was the concentration of power in the legions, and the damage those could cause.

So in some ways the Emperor may have forge the Empire, but Gulliman saved it.

but grimdarkness is stagnation, its kinda the whole theme of the 40k IoM.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Apparently, the Emperor himself disagreed with such a view. Even to the point of burning down a whole city, and personally breaking the last priest on Ancient Terra.

Perhaps the Emperor had a plan that did not involve religion. But it failed.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
If it wasn't for the religious side of things the Imperium would have split into a thousand petty empires already. It is the glue, the common ground, that holds it together.

This is 100% correct. The hidebound character of Imperial devotion may have its downsides but the advantages are what make the Imperium possible in the first place.

Its also causing it to die a slow and painful death.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


You can't have a figure as powerful as the Emperor not held as a God in the eyes of at least some of the people and it only takes a few loose stones to start a landslide.

Apparently, the Emperor himself disagreed with such a view. Even to the point of burning down a whole city, and personally breaking the last priest on Ancient Terra.

The Emperor wrote:

Only when Humanity is free from a religion that teaches us not to question will we see its true brilliance.

And the Emperor was never wrong about anything?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
If it wasn't for the religious side of things the Imperium would have split into a thousand petty empires already. It is the glue, the common ground, that holds it together.

This is 100% correct. The hidebound character of Imperial devotion may have its downsides but the advantages are what make the Imperium possible in the first place.

Its also causing it to die a slow and painful death.

Rather than a fast and fiery one as each Empire is picked off one by one.

There is a reason why the Emperor started the Great Crusade.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But aren't say 10 Chapters of a thousand marines just as capable as a legion, if not more flexible?

No, the lack of a unified command structure would be a major disadvantage. Numerical equivalence does not make for equivalent effectiveness.

Ok true.

But, say in the case of the Badab war a Chapter Master was assigned as overall commander of operations with the various other Chapter Masters kinda like a council.

Also, if if it did come to be necessary, wouldn't their be a Warmaster like Slaydo or an Inquisitor in overall command?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Its also causing it to die a slow and painful death.

That is like saying that life itself is nothing more than a slow and painful death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The decay was caused and propagated by the Imperial Cult.

Examples?

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Its also causing it to die a slow and painful death.

That is like saying that life itself is nothing more than a slow and painful death.

But with life there is a chance of improvement. For the Imperium, there is no chance whatsoever, because the status quo is more important than anything else in this failing system.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


You can't have a figure as powerful as the Emperor not held as a God in the eyes of at least some of the people and it only takes a few loose stones to start a landslide.

Apparently, the Emperor himself disagreed with such a view. Even to the point of burning down a whole city, and personally breaking the last priest on Ancient Terra.

The Emperor wrote:

Only when Humanity is free from a religion that teaches us not to question will we see its true brilliance.

And the Emperor was never wrong about anything?

Considering the damage caused by religious stagnation, in this case he was correct.

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The decay was caused and propagated by the Imperial Cult.

Examples?

Reason, logic, and technological certainty: the bases for the Emperor's vision of the future, are all grounds for heresy in the Imperium's current iteration. On the other hand, blind faith and ignorance are encouraged.

Ignorance is not encouraged in all its forms. Ignorance of certain this is encouraged because it is safer, on a cosmological scale, than knowledge. Ignorance is one of the many virtues that, when properly applied, has kept the Imperium not only in existence but also the dominant power in the galaxy.

As Lynata pointed out to you, more or less, it was the Emperor's vision of hope, light, and reason that produced the GrimDark. That is the point of the setting. When you try what is good IRL in the 40k setting, you get only death, terror, and grief. In 40k, bad things are necessary therefore bad things are as close to good things as you can get.

How can you be certain there would be any progress, how can you say that a few generations of space marines down the line from the primarchs would eventually attack and take terra and impose a new god..the gods in flesh of the legions astartes,

or do you think that technology is the only salvation man can find against the demons of the warp.


While they stagnated in technology, they advanced in faith and knowledge of the terrors of the warp, I guess the two are mutually exclusive.

I just suspect that the very fallible and vain various legions of the spacemarines would have led to more, and possible the final death gasps of the IoM, not a glorious future, that future died with the emperor, now its just life support.

Grimdark.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


Considering the damage caused by religious stagnation, in this case he was correct.

You see damage I see damage restriction.

I'd stand with Guilliman, not a doubt about that. Dorn was flying rodent gak insane at this point while Guilliman actually tried to salvage the situation instead of running off to an obvious trap to get himself killed.

As for people argueing about the chapters being less effective then full legions. It would not change a thing. The legions already worked in the form of chapters/companies (depending on legion for the actual numbers per chapter or company). They would've had to split off regardless to keep protecting all of Imperial space.

The split into actual chapters brought only benefits because the chapters themselves got more control over their actions and thus we're more readily available to protect where needed. As mentioned before, it also reduced the risk of massive numbers of Astartes turning rogue or Traitor in one go to where it is now more of a trickle in comparison to a full legion going at once.

Taking the example of the Hive fleet attacking Macragge, imagine if Ultramarines we're still a full legion. What would this have changed? Nothing, because their legion would still be scattered all over the Galaxy. If you we're to gather the entire legion to fend off the Hive fleet the Imperium would have suffered losses far greater then those the hive fleet could've ever hoped to inflict.

I don't see how having Legions would make any difference to the Imperium increasing in size, this is still happening even with Chapters, the problem is maintaining and holding on to the Worlds that are in the Imperium.

The legions were conquest machines by their very existence the thought process is lead to expansion and meeting new cultures (or lost ones).

The imperial guard are much better defensive weapon than the legions ever could be but the legions are an offensive weapon to begin with and so can do what the imperial guard cannot. That is invade a world without destroying the entire infrastructure due to drawn out fighting, guard do wars of attrition SM do blitzkrieg.

Now I cannot promise that the expansion would not overextend but even an over extension and mini fall would still lead humanity forward not in decaying stasis. A shot at better is better than always getting worse.

I don't think you can blame Guilliman for the Mechanicum and their methods, doesn't it all come down to the teachings of the Omnissiah? The Tau I don't know, you might be right. Maybe their should be an Imperial Astartes army made up of companies from each of the Chapters?

This is partly true but as stated above the codex astartes is mind set as well as a rules system. Without that mind set the SM legions would have had a 10 chances to have one legion that kept trying to expand the empire. Empire expansion tends to drive ingenuity and invention due to meeting new cultures. It is no wonder that periods of exploration and conquest always have technological and social upheaval.

I think that if any of the First Founding chapters called their successors they would come a knocking, there was the instance with the Blood Angels where they called on their Successors and even the Renegade Knights of Blood answered.

[/spoiler]

Admiral Valerian wrote:Reason, logic, and technological certainty: the bases for the Emperor's vision of the future, are all grounds for heresy in the Imperium's current iteration. On the other hand, blind faith and ignorance are encouraged.

Blind faith is a nice tool to enforce conformism, and thus stability. Also, your "Imperial Truth" seems pretty ignorant as well.

Also: Why does your criticism always seems aimed solely at the Ecclesiarchy and not the Mechanicus? That institution is just as religious, has been even during the times of the Great Crusade, and arguably bears a greater responsibility when it comes to the decay of technology - and given the role of technology in culture, in a way also a responsibility to the decay of Imperial culture as a whole.

Pilau Rice wrote:The Tau I don't know, you might be right. Maybe their should be an Imperial Astartes army made up of companies from each of the Chapters?

Technically, this option still exists. For specific campaigns and warzones, the Imperium frequently creates army groups consisting of all Imperial forces, led by a single general. The IoM could do the same if they'd wish to crush the Tau, but for the time being it's better to simply direct these resources elswhere. It'd be the exactly same if the Astartes grouped into one such armies would belong to a Legion rather than Chapters - just with a higher risk of insubordination due to an increased loyalty in a single commander.

How many Chapters fought with Macharius? He did pretty well for a mere mortal ... despite his "ignorance" ...

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Reason, logic, and technological certainty: the bases for the Emperor's vision of the future, are all grounds for heresy in the Imperium's current iteration. On the other hand, blind faith and ignorance are encouraged.

Blind faith is a nice tool to enforce conformism, and thus stability. Also, your "Imperial Truth" seems pretty ignorant as well.

Also: Why does your criticism always seems aimed solely at the Ecclesiarchy and not the Mechanicus? That institution is just as religious, has been even during the times of the Great Crusade, and arguably bears a greater responsibility when it comes to the decay of technology - and given the role of technology in culture, in a way also a responsibility to the decay of Imperial culture as a whole.

I have noticed that as well. The hatred for the Eccleciarchy is burning red-hot. Even though the dogma have saved the day more than once as it's the belief in the Emperor that fuels his armies rather than the more progressive members. It's that dark a future.

It seems to be a fairly common theme inside the fandom, though. "Ecclesiarchy = bad, Mechanicus = good".

I suppose it's explained best by meta-knowledge coupled with personal convictions, resulting in a biased perception of a fictional entity. The Mechanicus is further removed from anything we've got in the real world and thus save from such "taint"?

I think i will stand with Roboute Guilliman. Though not by a large margin.

Chapters make the chance of all out heresy less hurtfull or possible. It has worked in the way that betrayals hurt less. 1000 or 10.000 traitors? Ill take the 1000..... though for the defenders of the IOM it has hurt them... Scatterd all aournd sectors and systems... It sometimes takes weeks or months to come to the rescue with quite a meagre force...

The guardsman cant be counted upon,.. they turn traitor real quick most of the times...

 Lynata wrote:
It seems to be a fairly common theme inside the fandom, though. "Ecclesiarchy = bad, Mechanicus = good".

It's an IRL attitude. It's how Richard Dawkins sells his gospel of "reason."

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
The guardsman cant be counted upon,.. they turn traitor real quick most of the times...

Again, Lord Solar Mecharius accomplished quite a lot. Yes, at the end, his men did not dare go further. But a thousand worlds conquered in seven years is pretty astounding, even by Primarch standards.