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100% agreed, this has boiled down to battling the clinically insane.

Says the pot to the kettle.

See what I don't get is why RG gets the laurels for leadinf the scouring.

When It was Dorn out there also, not just tackling the generic scrub planets but taking it upon himself to deal with the most dangerous entrenched worlds.
I agree guilleman did a load of good and brought a lload to compliance, but it was the Fists that dealt with the tough worlds. The co
Let's not forget the kicking guilleman took on Eskrador.

During the heresy, somw would say organise the counter offensive, others would say delayed an essential relief effort.

Also post heresy dorns being painted with a brush for brining trhe Imperium to the brink of civil war? Dorns the one who backed down to prevent it. Yes RG escsapes such criticism.

While i do think that the codex has done a good job in terms of preventing another horus heresy, i cant help but think that with the problems that face to IoM in the current settings (necrons and tyranids) a pre heresy legion would be far better at facing down a hive fleet or tomb world than a chapter. Of course multiple chapters have combatted hive fleest, i think a more centralized fighting force like a legion would be better than several chapters w different combat doctrines who may or may not work with each otherwould do better in the end.

It might be better for a little while.

Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

It's better that the Imperial Guard take up the slack-- which is something that the Imperial Guard is good at, despite the naysayers.

 Melissia wrote:
Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

Why?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

Why?

Because as a general rule, Space Marines are a group of massively prideful and powerful warriors who don't like taking gak from "lesser beings" and consider themselves better than everyone, resulting in, inevitably, one of the ones in power getting different ideas on how to run things and starting a war over it.

I'm sure you don't agree.

What of the Primarchs?

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

Why?

Because as a general rule, Space Marines are a group of massively prideful and powerful warriors who don't like taking gak from "lesser beings" and consider themselves better than everyone, resulting in, inevitably, one of the ones in power getting different ideas on how to run things and starting a war over it.

I'm sure you don't agree.

How is this significantly different from the rest of humanity? More regular humans have turned against the Imperium than Space Marines have.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Then it'd inevitably tear itself apart and damage the Imperium in the process.

Why?

Because as a general rule, Space Marines are a group of massively prideful and powerful warriors who don't like taking gak from "lesser beings" and consider themselves better than everyone, resulting in, inevitably, one of the ones in power getting different ideas on how to run things and starting a war over it.

I'm sure you don't agree.

How is this significantly different from the rest of humanity? More regular humans have turned against the Imperium than Space Marines have.

Its not. It simply proves that Space Marines are still Human for all their augmentations.

And yet, you don't ever see people make comments like "The galaxy would be better off without the Imperial Guard", or "human soldiers can't be trusted, they failed the Emperor", like you consistently hear about Space Marines in this thread, despite the fact that regular human soldiers have caused astronomically more damage to the Imperium than the Space Marines ever have.

What makes you say that?

Say what?

"regular human soldiers have caused astronomically more damage to the Imperium than the Space Marines ever have. "

Also, fine, don't talk to me on Skype, jerk. :C

Indeed the Imperial Guard can easily overwhelm the Space Marine chapters. The Space Marines are just what manages the IOM being like Germany anno 1916. Still hope. Still in the fight but the hope is fading away. Without the Space Marines the IOM would just loose all it's ability to go on the offensive and they would collapse. Without the Imperial Guard well then they would implode spectacularly and with some speed, but the really good thing of the IOM is the Imperial Navy. That's where the real strength of the IOM lays in my opinion.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Indeed the Imperial Guard can easily overwhelm the Space Marine chapters. The Space Marines are just what manages the IOM being like Germany anno 1916. Still hope. Still in the fight but the hope is fading away. Without the Space Marines the IOM would just loose all it's ability to go on the offensive and they would collapse. Without the Imperial Guard well then they would implode spectacularly and with some speed, but the really good thing of the IOM is the Imperial Navy. That's where the real strength of the IOM lays in my opinion.

I agree. The Imperial Navy is unacknowledged backbone of the Human Empire.

To quote Starship Troopers: Marauder...

"Without the Fleet, Mobile Infantry can't hold hold the Outer Colonies. Next stop: Earth."

"There goes the neighborhood..."

Now, translate to 40k...

"Without the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard and the Astartes can't hold the line. Next stop, Terra."

"There goes the neighborhood..."

And to think if only the Primarchs had thought of doing a poll the whole fate of the galaxy might have changed

What OF the Imperial Guard? When an Imperial Guard regiment (or even an entire WORLD of regiments) goes rogue, it has nowhere near the impact that an entire Space Marine legion going rogue does. I'm sure you'll agree on that regard. And that's without the example of Commissars keeping them in line in the first place, keeping many loyal through fear where they would betray otherwise.

The Imperial Guard is far more resistant to the damage of betrayal than the legions were.

In order for the legions to come back while still not being an inherent danger to the Imperium, it'd take massive levels of reform.

 Melissia wrote:
What OF the Imperial Guard? When an Imperial Guard regiment (or even an entire WORLD of regiments) goes rogue, it has nowhere near the impact that an entire Space Marine legion going rogue does. I'm sure you'll agree on that regard.

It's actually worse when elements of the Imperial Navy goes rogue. But an armygroup of the IG is very bad when going rogue.

As opposed to hundreds of thousands of Astartes and their attached Imperial Army flunkies and massive independent naval assets?

 Melissia wrote:
As opposed to hundreds of thousands of Astartes and their attached Imperial Army flunkies and massive independent naval assets?

Try thinking of the IOM without the Imperial navy for one moment, and they can just launch a few torpedoes at a planet from the friendly neighborhood Lunar Cruiser if you want could cause more damage than millions of Imperial Guardsmen worshiping the Ruinous powers.

Once again I find that you didn't actually respond to the point being raised.

And once again I find you not to read what I'm writing.

I read what you wrote. It's not relevant to the suggestion that betrayal by hundreds of thousands of marines, the Imperial Army that follows them, and their naval assets, are quite possibly one of the worst things that can ever happen to the Imperium.

Also? We're not doing this again. No.

 Melissia wrote:
I read what you wrote. It's not relevant to the suggestion that betrayal by hundreds of thousands of marines, the Imperial Army that follows them, and their naval assets, are quite possibly one of the worst things that can ever happen to the Imperium.

Please note I'm thinking of the present IOM, not the past. And even so, a single Lunar Cruiser have enough fire-power to destroy an entire planet (if it's a rather primitive one of course). As for the 100k Space Marines with support, they are pretty limited in damage-output without the fleet.

Just don't allow the Legions to control the mortal armies alongside them.

Bam, now they lack air support and bodies to throw in the grinder.

Also, not one founding loyalist chapter has turned its back from the Imperium in its entirety, but countless non-founding chapters have, after being more removed from the ideals and commands put in place by the loyalists.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Just don't allow the Legions to control the mortal armies alongside them.

Bam, now they lack air support and bodies to throw in the grinder.

Also, not one founding loyalist chapter has turned its back from the Imperium in its entirety, but countless non-founding chapters have, after being more removed from the ideals and commands put in place by the loyalists.

Sure, no first founding chapter has ever turned against the imperium as a whole.
But! Astartes from any first founding chapters have on more than one occasion turned traitor.

Being part of a first founding chapter does not make you immune to corruption, nor does it make you more loyal to the Emperor than those of the newer chapters.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Just don't allow the Legions to control the mortal armies alongside them.

Bam, now they lack air support and bodies to throw in the grinder.

Also, not one founding loyalist chapter has turned its back from the Imperium in its entirety, but countless non-founding chapters have, after being more removed from the ideals and commands put in place by the loyalists.

Sure, no first founding chapter has ever turned against the imperium as a whole.
But! Astartes from any first founding chapters have on more than one occasion turned traitor.

Being part of a first founding chapter does not make you immune to corruption, nor does it make you more loyal to the Emperor than those of the newer chapters.

It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption. Though I wouldn't mind hearing the Ultramarines all turning against the light of the Emperor.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

Sort of, name a CSM from a first founding chapter.