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 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

He can't.

There is only one group of Imperials, humans or astartes, that are completely and utterly immune to the taint of the warp. Those are Blanks-- and they can still be "tainted" with the idea of Chaos and thus betray the Imperium.

Even the Grey Knights must always be vigilant against its influences.

Plus wasn't there a renegade Raven Guard Shadow Captain of the 4th company called Ardaric Vaanes that became part of Warsmith Honsou's forces when he tried invading Ultramar? Sure he got "redeemed" shortly after but otherwise there's an example of a first founding chapter marine who turned against the Imperium (and a captain no less).

Plus there was Sven Vulfbad who is another example as a CSM of a first founding chapter as he was a wolf lord who turned to khornate worship.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

Sort of, name a CSM from a first founding chapter.

Do you even lift?

Thinking about it it was a bad idea to challenge as also a Salamander Librarian was seduced and such. The Grey Knights have a diamond-hard inner shell to fall back on even if their bodies should surrender to temptations and that's why they can't be turned, and why they likely goes through 10 to 100 times the amount of the regular Space Marines to make Space Marines.

 Redcruisair wrote:
[

Spoiler:

Captain Hakim of the White Scars and the marines under his command - Garro: Sword of Truth -

Was just about to say him.

2 things leap out at me here. Firstly 'makes you less suspect to corruption' does not mean less likely. Just that because of your history you may be given the benefit of the doubt unlike a more recent chapter. To which I agree.

Also Legions v Chapters is not the same as imperial army and navy breakup. I'm sure Even Dorn wouldn't have objected to a fundamental reorganization of the forces. But the line is crossed when his own unit. His sons are broken. I'm pretty sure even he wouldn't have objected to the reorganization of the imperial army into the Guard and Navy.

I stand on the side of the chaos armies, because although a run necrons I believe the C'tan, the ones who made them the immortal beings they are, a being of chaos. Oppose chaos and you appose the necrons. Feel our wrath. Because we are closer to Terra than you think...

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

Sort of, name a CSM from a first founding chapter.

Imperial Fist and Space Wolf were both in The Gildar Rift.

A Raven Guard in the UM novels

 Galdos wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It actually does make you less suspect to the corruption.

O RLy?

Can you prove it?

Sort of, name a CSM from a first founding chapter.

Imperial Fist and Space Wolf were both in The Gildar Rift.

A Raven Guard in the UM novels

I retconned the question. It was stupid and to be honest. As everyone except the Grey Knights and , well I wouldn't recommend writing about Sororitas straying since they seem to be very fanatical about their faith.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
...I wouldn't recommend writing about Sororitas straying since they seem to be very fanatical about their faith.

They're the Word Bearers 2.0...look what happened to the 1.0 series.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
...I wouldn't recommend writing about Sororitas straying since they seem to be very fanatical about their faith.

They're the Word Bearers 2.0...look what happened to the 1.0 series.

I'm very sure, since they basically are so fanatically devoted to Empy they will follow him beyond death. It's kind of sad you can't put that childish hatred of the Ecclesiarchy to rest, after all you are not so different.

 Beaviz81 wrote:


Please note I'm thinking of the present IOM, not the past. And even so, a single Lunar Cruiser have enough fire-power to destroy an entire planet (if it's a rather primitive one of course). As for the 100k Space Marines with support, they are pretty limited in damage-output without the fleet.

One quick thing I have to point out, SM have their own fleet!

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
...I wouldn't recommend writing about Sororitas straying since they seem to be very fanatical about their faith.

They're the Word Bearers 2.0...look what happened to the 1.0 series.

I'm very sure, since they basically are so fanatically devoted to Empy they will follow him beyond death. It's kind of sad you can't put that childish hatred of the Ecclesiarchy to rest, after all you are not so different.

What are you talking about?

 chapgrimaldus wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:


Please note I'm thinking of the present IOM, not the past. And even so, a single Lunar Cruiser have enough fire-power to destroy an entire planet (if it's a rather primitive one of course). As for the 100k Space Marines with support, they are pretty limited in damage-output without the fleet.

One quick thing I have to point out, SM have their own fleet!

An inferior fleet whose primary purpose is dedicated towards transporting Marines from point A to point B. Not a full on combat fleet.

Actually there are various kinds of ship to make up a chapter's fleet that can be quite formidable. Proof you ask?
Play some Battlefleet Gothic then you'll get it. Plus a lot of fleet based chapters pride themselves of the power of their fleet and the training their serfs get. Take the 3rd war of Armageddon where a BT fleet defended for weeks against an entire ork waagghhh before pulling back to regroup. or many other battles fought by SM in space. There are treasure troves of battle lore you ignore by calling their fleet "inferior"

And yet, their ships, especially the bigger ones like battle barges, are still dedicated mostly towards getting marines from point A in space to point B on the battlefield and then supporting said marines in combat-- whereas the Imperial Navy's ships are dedicated almost entirely to the effort of destroying other ships in space.

Actually I am pretty sure the Space Wolves proved that the fleet of a single chapter is superior to the fleet of an entire Segmentum.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually I am pretty sure the Space Wolves proved that the fleet of a single chapter is superior to the fleet of an entire Segmentum.

Indeed

@Melissia: 95% of the IOM Capital Ships are geared for that purpose, to get troops from point A to B the rest are supporting the ships with the troops, doesn't make them any less deadly besides wanna talk about inferior? What about the huge chunk of merchantmen ships making up the regular imperial navy? I'd take a crew of trained SM serfs over a bunch of civilians who know how to pilot a ship.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually I am pretty sure the Space Wolves proved that the fleet of a single chapter is superior to the fleet of an entire Segmentum.

They displayed hit and run tactics. Try thinking Viking, next words should be hit and run attacks. That's what they do best.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
@Melissia: 95% of the IOM Capital Ships are geared for that purpose

Not from what I remember from BFG.

Its what I remember from every single book I have read. Strike Cruisers, emperor, apocalypse,retribution class battleships, imperial vengeance GC, dauntless class, need I name more that have holds used to transport regiments? Quit arguing for the sake of it please

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Its what I remember from every single book I have read. Strike Cruisers, emperor, apocalypse,retribution class battleships, imperial vengeance GC, dauntless class, need I name more that have holds used to transport regiments? Quit arguing for the sake of it please

No, because that'd be pointless. Just because a ship with hundreds of thousands of crew-- if not ten or a hundred times more than that-- is able to hold and deploy a few regiments of guardsmen doesn't mean that it is a dedicated transport like the Battlebarge.

The Battlebarge is designed SPECIFICALLY around deploying a large number of Space Marines in a rapid fashion via drop pod and thunderhawk, and then supporting them with orbital bombardment. IT IS a troop transport craft. Its most potent offense is the cargo that it carries, rather than its own armaments. IT is heavily shielded specifically to burst through planetary defenses and deliver its cargo, and it is armed to bombard planets in assistance of the Space Marine troops it deploys. It's by no means a weak vessel, but compared to, say, an Apocalypse battleship carrying a large number of lances and a massive Nova Cannon capable of firing shots which travel at hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of kilometers a second, and which can destroy anything within a thousand kilometers of its detonation, its offensive firepower pales-- unless you include the power of its boarding crew (which is not always an option).

A Battle Barge easily rivals any Battleship; while an Imperial Navy Battleship's Weapon Batteries out-range a Battle Barges, basically, they're optimum range (30cm on the TT) remains the same. Lances are also out-classed (except in range) by Bombardment Cannon (because they - Bombardment Cannon - can inflict more critical damage than a Lance). Also, Battle Barges can launch Boarding Torpedoes, which Imperial Navy ships rarely carry.

Whooah. Relax. Both of you are right.

Yes the space marine fleet is geared towards planetary invasion. But to do that it needs to be capable of smashing orbital defences and destroying system ships. In a fleet action they are at a disadvantage because it's not how their ships are optimised for. They are more than just a transport. Theyes are amongst the most formidable vessels the Imerium can deploy. But it is planetary assaults that they truly excel.

That's not to say they are incapable or unable or even worse at it. They are exceptionally well armed and armoured and to call them inferior does them an injustice.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Actually I am pretty sure the Space Wolves proved that the fleet of a single chapter is superior to the fleet of an entire Segmentum.

Battlefleet Cadia, defending the Cadia sector (which if its anything like the size of the gothic sector has around 80 inhabited systems) had a standing strength prior to the 13th Black crusade of:

12 Battleships
12 Cruiser squadrons (48 cruisers if in squadrons of 4)
21 escort squadrons (126 escorts if in squadrons of 6)

Compared to a 'codex' space marine fleet of:

3 Battlebarges
6 strike cruisers
and assorted escorts. (20-30 i would estimate)

Even taking into account that the cadia sector is more heavily fortified than most, and the space wolves may have a larger fleet than other chapters, if Battlefleet Cadia faced the space wolf fleet, then it would be a short, sharp exchange of fire resulting in the destruction of the space wolves.

Then consider how many sectors there are (80 sysems per sector) 1 million systems in the imperium, equating to 12,500 secotors spread across the whole imperium, at a conservative estimate, that each sector has a fleet roughly 50% as strong as Battlefleet Cadia, that would equate to:

75,000 battleships
300,000 Cruisers
1,500,000 escorts.

not counting of course system defence fleets that aren't warp capable, and so forth.

compared with:

3000 battlebarges (3 per chapter, 1000 chapters)
6000 Strike cruisers (6 per chapter, 1000 chapters)
and perhaps 20-30,000 escorts, quite probably more

So, at a rough guess, the imperial navy has 25 times as many battleships as all space marine chapters combined, 50 times as many cruisers, and 50 times as many escorts.

There is a reason why the Imperial Navy, and the Imperial Guard bear the brunt of the fighting in any campaign, and why they make up the bulk of the forces. They have vastly superior resources to draw upon,
and it is also precisely this reason that had the Space marines remained as Legions rather than being split into chapters, and had a legion gone rogue would have been pretty bad, but the Navy could deal with it. What made the Horus Heresy such a terrible war was that the Imperial Army (being composed of the army and navy at that time) was under the direct command of the Legions, and thus the primarchs, and when the Legions went over to Horus, their Army formations did too. thats half the imperiums military forces of the time

We also know from BFG that the Lunar Class Cruiser is the most common vessel. It numbers around 700 vessels across Segmentum Obscurus.

Id hesitate on your figures, a sector at war is likely to give distorted numbers. In the case of Cadia, its defences are ramped up along with Armageddon.

Which consisted of...

■First-Line Cruiser Squadron (6)
■Second-Line Cruiser Squadrons (9)
■Light Cruiser Squadrons (17)
■Escort Squadrons (21)

Actually I'd hesitate to consider any of GW's "official" numbers, considering that GW doesn't even understand its own scale.

Psh. Chapters. Psh.

Late to the party, but I go with Guilliman. I think the Legions being split into Chapters was a great idea. Much more potential colour schemes.

Fluff wise, I also think it was also the right thing to do. Prohibits large scale Space Marine heresy based on one leader going nutso (Huron being the only one to date) allows more potential for advancement (1,000 Chapter Masters!) and prevents the need for more bureaucracies to manage galaxy spanning Space Marine armies.

Best not to keep all the eggs in one basket.

How can you say that legionnares(spelling) is better than codex? Each chapter has it's own unique history. You can't just throw them all together and merge them. I mean you can't just put blood angels and grey knights together and expect them to forget the past. Think on this please.