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 Void__Dragon wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
So why doesn't the government tell us about all the very secret weapons projects they are working on?

We have already had this convo before and as usual you have ignored what I've said before and just go on praising Magnus.

Oh I'm sorry, are we the second in command to the president of the United States? No, we're not, therefore your analogy is worthless. I'm not saying the Emperor should have been completely straight with random Imperial citizen number 2,535,395. But his Primarchs? Yes.

I didn't mention Magnus. At all. You might want to calm down, and rethink your argument.

But why do they need to know? They have no part to play with the project itself at the point it was being worked on. They had the GC to deal with. At the end of the day, Magnus ruined the project cause he disobeyed the Emp's orders.

Cuz If Magnus had known he probably wouldn't have broken the darn thing. Cmon, it doesn't take a lot of brainsmarts to realize this.

 Popenfresh wrote:
Cuz If Magnus had known he probably wouldn't have broken the darn thing. Cmon, it doesn't take a lot of brainsmarts to realize this.

And why was Magnus in the position to brake it in the first place?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Nothing but excuses for Magnus is what I see.

Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really, you guys are seeing gak from hindsight and thats just unfair.

Magnus was in a position to break it because he was a very powerful psyker. Even if the Emperor told him, there's no guarantee that his arrogance and massive ego wouldn't have caused him to break it anyway.

All of the primarchs had massive egos to some extent or other. Dorn's battle against the Iron Warriors, for example, was motivated mostly by his ego. Indeed, the primarch of the Iron Warriors set up the trap specifically because of his ego and Dorn's clashing constantly.

 Melissia wrote:
Magnus was in a position to break it because he was a very powerful psyker. Even if the Emperor told him, there's no guarantee that his arrogance and massive ego wouldn't have caused him to break it anyway.

IIRC, he needed help from Warp beings to do the final smashing act on the defenses.

If your post is in response to my post, the question is actually about Magnus's ignoring the Emp's orders to stop playing around with the Warp.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Magnus was in a position to break it because he was a very powerful psyker. Even if the Emperor told him, there's no guarantee that his arrogance and massive ego wouldn't have caused him to break it anyway.

IIRC, he needed help from Warp beings to do the final smashing act on the defenses.

If your post is in response to my post, the question is actually about Magnus's ignoring the Emp's orders to stop playing around with the Warp.

It was more a general sentiment, than a response specifically to your post.

 Melissia wrote:


All of the primarchs had massive egos to some extent or other. Dorn's battle against the Iron Warriors, for example, was motivated mostly by his ego. Indeed, the primarch of the Iron Warriors set up the trap specifically because of his ego and Dorn's clashing constantly.

They are super beings who conquered their worlds. Its no surprise that they have an ego problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hell, Mortarion's resentment are all about his ego to be frank.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


All of the primarchs had massive egos to some extent or other. Dorn's battle against the Iron Warriors, for example, was motivated mostly by his ego. Indeed, the primarch of the Iron Warriors set up the trap specifically because of his ego and Dorn's clashing constantly.

They are super beings who conquered their worlds. Its no surprise that they have an ego problem.

And in the end, their own massive egotistical rampages caused them to be brought down low... to where they really were all along. Nothing more than mere mortals, fragile things that could be killed, betrayed, destroyed, and, as shown with the two lost legions, wiped out from the very memory of history itself.

As much as I mock Tau and as flawed as humanity is, at least most Tau and Human leaders can be given credit in that they rarely see themselves as essentially gods-- the ones that do rarely last long (see Vandire). Hell, even the Emperor tried to refuse that he was a god (although how successful he was at not giving in to the god complex is up to interpretation). The Emperor was an inherently flawed being, but at least he TRIED to remind himself to be humble through telling himself and others that he's not a god, while many primarchs didn't even bother to make the attempt, relishing in their own supposed superiority.

Astartes are inherently prone to failures of pride without constant reminders of their own flaws-- which is often hard to do given their biological toughness and superior equipment. But they're too useful to get rid of entirely. Thus, while they are allowed to continue to exist, they will never be trusted with Legion like power again, as a reminder of the wrongs that they committed against humanity, of the crimes motivated by pride that nearly destroyed humanity's only real hope for unity and peace.

One can claim humanity's being hypocritical here, given that there's been examples of prideful humans that nearly destroyed the Imperium-- like Vandire, as mentioned before. And that might be true, but that doesn't make what the Astartes did any better, nor does it necessarily make their punishment any more unjust.

 Melissia wrote:

As much as I mock Tau and as flawed as humanity is, at least most Tau and Human leaders can be given credit in that they rarely see themselves as essentially gods-- the ones that do rarely last long (see Vandire). Hell, even the Emperor tried to refuse that he was a god (although how successful he was at not giving in to the god complex is up to interpretation). The Emperor was an inherently flawed being, but at least he TRIED to remind himself to be humble through telling himself and others that he's not a god, while many primarchs didn't even bother to make the attempt, relishing in their own supposed superiority.

The Tau are perfect! Old tau fluff and Tau fans say so! Anything else is just vile retcons !!! Anything that could force the Tau to not be good and act ruthless is evil ! The Tau are perfect so thus when a Tau speaks, everyone (including orks) should bow and kiss Tau ass.




Anyway , if we go with what "The Sigillite" states plus the fact the Emp only took direct control cause of the Age of Strife, I surmise that the Emp has no real desire to rule over humanity forever and ever and would rather it rule itself.

Heh. I know you're joking, but to be fair, the entire horus heresy era has had about fourty thousand recons.

 Melissia wrote:
Heh. I know you're joking, but to be fair, the entire horus heresy era has had about fourty thousand recons.

Just having some fun. If Tau fans get mad, don't care.

Come to think of it, Dorn relented in the end IIRC...So codex goes no matter who I choose...
Ro-boo-teeey you are my man....Don't like the dudes who change their mind and then go emo....BT are cool though....
Btw I still don't understand correlationship between no-codex, totally yes-codex, feth-codex...

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
But why do they need to know? They have no part to play with the project itself at the point it was being worked on. They had the GC to deal with. At the end of the day, Magnus ruined the project cause he disobeyed the Emp's orders.

"My sons, I am leaving the Great Crusade."
"Oh. Well, why?"
"None of your fething business, get back to work."
"........."

He comes off as a huge jackass.

But humor me... Why not tell them?

Imagine this.

"My sons, I am leaving the Great Crusade."
"Oh. Well, why?"
"I am leaving to work on a Webway Gate on Terra. It will make FTL travel in the galaxy much faster, a great deal more reliable, and most importantly: Completely safe. No more will Warp Storms destroy our ships, and end the lives of your warriors. Magnus' psychic power will maintain the gate, but for now, only I have the knowledge of the technology to make this possible, and the Great Crusade is too important to stop while I do my work on Terra. I have full confidence in your abilities, my sons."
"Hey, that is pretty important. We love you dad."
"Dude, gay. Graham McNeill is not writing this book, calm down with that gak"

There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them. Doing so made some start to distrust him. Seriously, what harm could there have been in telling them about his plans to... Make space travel better? There was no reason. Not yet, anyway. I am sure that some book will come out with the revelation that the Chaos Gods indoctrinated each Primarch to have the Emperor revealing his plans concerning the Webway Gate a trigger, one that compels them all to dogpile and defile him. But at the moment, he has no reason. You could argue my conclusion is based on "hindsight", but you would be wrong. Those that work directly under you are far more obedient when you make them privy to your plans.

Also, Magnus had a huge part to play in the project.

There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them.

Simply put, secrecy was an inherently important part of the project because he knew that the forces of Chaos, including traitors from within, would try to ruin it.

They tried (and succeeded) even without him revealing the secret, true-- but hindsight being 20/20 and all, that's not a justification for revealing such an important secret weapon against Chaos to potentially corrupted allies.

Nepotism is not a valid reason to reveal military secrets.

 Melissia wrote:

There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them.

Simply put, secrecy was an inherently important part of the project because he knew that the forces of Chaos, including traitors from within, would try to ruin it.

When he said "no reason", the unspoken qualifier was "good". If the Primarchs were all apparently so untrustworthy that he couldn't in good conscious let them in on the secret of the Webway, trusting them with the might of the entire Imperium's collective military with zero supervision or checks and balances is equally ridiculous.

- - - - -

The majority of the traitor Primarch's falls had nothing to do with ego or some sense of hubris, trying to portray them as such is disingenuous.

Horus- Fell due to a mixture of immense egotism balanced by incredibly insecurity.

Magnus- Fell because he got fethed by Tzeentch. His initial disobedience of the Nikea edict was certainly the result of his massive hubris, but even then, he had zero intention of turning against the Imperium until he'd lost everything he had at Prospero.

Fulgrim- Possessed by a daemonic sword trololo, almost certainly a matter of hubris.

Lorgar: Fell due to his unrelenting desire for truth. Considers himself a mere pawn for the Chaos gods, his fall had absolutely nothing to do with egotism, quite frankly, Lorgar has always been one of the most humble characters in 40K, even as a villain.

Perturabo: Fell because he was resentful of no one ever acknowledging him or his legion, joined Horus for no reason other than because he felt that Horus was the only person in the Galaxy who genuinely forgave him for razing his home-world. Had nothing to do with egotism.

Mortarion: Fell because he has an obsessive hatred for tyrants. He felt that the Emperor was just one more tyrant, and so joined Horus in the belief that he would be a better ruler. Incredibly stupid, but has nothing to do with egotism.

Alpharius/Omegon: Joined Horus because they were led to believe that killing humanity was the only to defeat Chaos and save the Galaxy. Obviously, this absolutely has nothing to do with egotism or vanity or anything else.

Angron: Joined Horus because he's insane.

Curze: Joined Horus because he's insane.

So yeah, out of nine betrayals, we have two, maybe three if you count Magnus, who fell due to hubris, egotism or megalomaniac tendencies. The rest fell due to rather tragic circumstances (a couple, such as Mortarion's lulzy fall withstanding).

As for Dorn, the Iron Cage had nothing to do with egotism. Dorn sent his men into the Iron Cage knowing full well that they were going to get screwed, he never had any delusions that they were walking out of that the victors, so no. It had nothing to do with egotism and everything to do with Dorn basically being an emotional wreck and a psychopath by that point.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
But why do they need to know? They have no part to play with the project itself at the point it was being worked on. They had the GC to deal with. At the end of the day, Magnus ruined the project cause he disobeyed the Emp's orders.

"My sons, I am leaving the Great Crusade."
"Oh. Well, why?"
"None of your fething business, get back to work."
"........."

He comes off as a huge jackass.

He didn't say it like that.

But humor me... Why not tell them?

Imagine this.

"My sons, I am leaving the Great Crusade."
"Oh. Well, why?"
"I am leaving to work on a Webway Gate on Terra. It will make FTL travel in the galaxy much faster, a great deal more reliable, and most importantly: Completely safe. No more will Warp Storms destroy our ships, and end the lives of your warriors. Magnus' psychic power will maintain the gate, but for now, only I have the knowledge of the technology to make this possible, and the Great Crusade is too important to stop while I do my work on Terra. I have full confidence in your abilities, my sons."
"Hey, that is pretty important. We love you dad."
"Dude, gay. Graham McNeill is not writing this book, calm down with that gak"

There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them. Doing so made some start to distrust him. Seriously, what harm could there have been in telling them about his plans to... Make space travel better? There was no reason. Not yet, anyway. I am sure that some book will come out with the revelation that the Chaos Gods indoctrinated each Primarch to have the Emperor revealing his plans concerning the Webway Gate a trigger, one that compels them all to dogpile and defile him.

Only Horus, IIRC, can be said to be hurt by the Emp's leaving. Angron already hated the Emp, Kurze is psycho, Mortarion has lot of resentment that has him see Emp as a tyrant.

But at the moment, he has no reason. You could argue my conclusion is based on "hindsight", but you would be wrong. Those that work directly under you are far more obedient when you make them privy to your plans.

Then why is there need to know info that is restricted from even people who deal with it and only known by certain people?

Also, Magnus had a huge part to play in the project.

When the project was completed. Before then, he had no part to play.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them.

Simply put, secrecy was an inherently important part of the project because he knew that the forces of Chaos, including traitors from within, would try to ruin it.

When he said "no reason", the unspoken qualifier was "good". If the Primarchs were all apparently so untrustworthy that he couldn't in good conscious let them in on the secret of the Webway, trusting them with the might of the entire Imperium's collective military with zero supervision or checks and balances is equally ridiculous.

How so? Who says its untrustworthyness and more of wanting to protect the Webway project from interference from anyone?

Even if they were trustworthy, that's still no reason for him to go yapping to them about his sensitive, secret project.

He had no good reason TO tell them. They didn't need to know-- you realize that there was a war going on, right? In war, not all commanders know every single secret that their country has.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
He didn't say it like that.

But he did. When asked why he was leaving, he refused to tell them and told them to worry about the Great Crusade.

Only Horus, IIRC, can be said to be hurt by the Emp's leaving. Angron already hated the Emp, Kurze is psycho, Mortarion has lot of resentment that has him see Emp as a tyrant.

Angron and Curze were indeed not salvageable at that point, though in the case of Angron, it required the Emperor doing more dumbshit to make his betrayal possible, but we'll get into that at another time. And in the case of Curze, it is mostly Fulgrim being two-faced and Dorn being a frothing psychopath that pushed him to betray, though in his case, it might indeed have always been inevitable. As for Mortarion, that wasn't the only reason. Mortarion, at the end of the day, felt more loyal to Horus, than he did the Emperor. Horus' betrayal made Mortarion's possible. Oh, and Emperor leaving further cemented in Angron's mind that he was a coward, who relied on others to shed the blood he was not willing to.

What of Fulgrim? The Emperor leaving them did indeed play a part in his betrayal, as did admittedly a talking sword, lol. And like before, it was Horus who had to convince him, before that he did not consider it, even with the talking sword.

Magnus? Wasn't really hurt by daddy leaving, but telling him of the project he was integral to would have been a big help towards saving the Webway in future events.

Perturabo, eh, I haven't read Angel Exterminatus, but prior to that he betrayed the Imperium because he was a sinister sociopath who sort of hated everyone. Though, like Mortarion, Horus' betrayal did make Perturabo's possible.

Alpharius? Clearly Alpharius is the least intelligent Primarch, to the extent that he should have been put down. Who the feth trusts xenos? Lol, what a dumbass.

As for Lorgar, Lorgar picked up on daddy's secretive, untrustworthy nature before anyone else. But he was already a traitor by the time of daddy leaving the Great Crusade.

So even if Horus was the most affected by daddy leaving without telling why (Though I'd argue the Emperor not telling Magnus eventually proved to be the most dire mistake), since so many of the traitors required Horus to make their betrayals possible, it still contributed to the Heresy.

Then why is there need to know info that is restricted from even people who deal with it and only known by certain people?

Because other than the Emperor and maybe Malcador, the Primarchs are the highest-ranking, and most important people in the Imperium.

Why is it restricted though? Stop dancing around my question. Why shouldn't the Emperor have told them?

When the project was completed. Before then, he had no part to play.

Read above.

BlaxicanX wrote:
How so? Who says its untrustworthyness and more of wanting to protect the Webway project from interference from anyone?

The Primarchs were lightyears away.

How would they interfere with the project? Only Magnus could manage that. By blowing a hole in it, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Simply put, secrecy was an inherently important part of the project because he knew that the forces of Chaos, including traitors from within, would try to ruin it.

They tried (and succeeded) even without him revealing the secret, true-- but hindsight being 20/20 and all, that's not a justification for revealing such an important secret weapon against Chaos to potentially corrupted allies.

Nepotism is not a valid reason to reveal military secrets.

So what you're saying is that trusting potential traitors with the most powerful military force in the galaxy is fine, but trusting them with the knowledge that the Emperor was trying to improve space travel would be too risky?

Of course not, they weren't trusted with command of Sisters of Battle.

 Melissia wrote:
Of course not, they weren't trusted with command of Sisters of Battle.

Disagree with your position in this thread but exalted regardless.

 Melissia wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


All of the primarchs had massive egos to some extent or other. Dorn's battle against the Iron Warriors, for example, was motivated mostly by his ego. Indeed, the primarch of the Iron Warriors set up the trap specifically because of his ego and Dorn's clashing constantly.

They are super beings who conquered their worlds. Its no surprise that they have an ego problem.

And in the end, their own massive egotistical rampages caused them to be brought down low... to where they really were all along. Nothing more than mere mortals, fragile things that could be killed, betrayed, destroyed, and, as shown with the two lost legions, wiped out from the very memory of history itself.

As much as I mock Tau and as flawed as humanity is, at least most Tau and Human leaders can be given credit in that they rarely see themselves as essentially gods-- the ones that do rarely last long (see Vandire). Hell, even the Emperor tried to refuse that he was a god (although how successful he was at not giving in to the god complex is up to interpretation). The Emperor was an inherently flawed being, but at least he TRIED to remind himself to be humble through telling himself and others that he's not a god, while many primarchs didn't even bother to make the attempt, relishing in their own supposed superiority.

Astartes are inherently prone to failures of pride without constant reminders of their own flaws-- which is often hard to do given their biological toughness and superior equipment. But they're too useful to get rid of entirely. Thus, while they are allowed to continue to exist, they will never be trusted with Legion like power again, as a reminder of the wrongs that they committed against humanity, of the crimes motivated by pride that nearly destroyed humanity's only real hope for unity and peace.

One can claim humanity's being hypocritical here, given that there's been examples of prideful humans that nearly destroyed the Imperium-- like Vandire, as mentioned before. And that might be true, but that doesn't make what the Astartes did any better, nor does it necessarily make their punishment any more unjust.

I think Gulliman was pretty humble. After reading know no fear, I found him to be immensely polite and likeable for a god like warrior. Anyone who claims to loathe him just seems to be acting like one of those too cool for school contrarian types. You know, like people that love Sonic Youth but say that the Beatles suck!

 Melissia wrote:
Of course not, they weren't trusted with command of Sisters of Battle.

Of course not, as there were no Sororitas at the time, considering the Emperor's own personal dislike of religion.

Closest thing they had to sororitas were an army of female blanks, can't for the life of me remember what they were called

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Closest thing they had to sororitas were an army of female blanks, can't for the life of me remember what they were called

Sisters of Silence. Either they were wiped out during the Horus Heresy, were disbanded absorbed into the Inquisition or the Culexus Temple, or are just keeping a low profile post-Heresy.

 mattyrm wrote:


I think Gulliman was pretty humble. After reading know no fear, I found him to be immensely polite and likeable for a god like warrior. Anyone who claims to loathe him just seems to be acting like one of those too cool for school contrarian types. You know, like people that love Sonic Youth but say that the Beatles suck!

He comes off well in that book oh ya.

The problem is that is in other stories that present him differently. I think it is the short story "Rules of Engagement" that talks about how he plans to overthrow (okay extreme word but it is close enough) the Imperium after the HH and he will fight and kill any of the loyal Primarchs like Vulkan who stand in his way of power and his Codex.

That sounds like a gross exaggeration.

BlaxicanX wrote:
That sounds like a gross exaggeration.

it is


However he did have his men training on how to defeat Salemanders with the knowledge that after the HH his brothers may resist the idea of a Codex.

He even had a name chosen for what he would rename the Imperium if he needed to use force

 Galdos wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
That sounds like a gross exaggeration.

it is


However he did have his men training on how to defeat Salemanders with the knowledge that after the HH his brothers may resist the idea of a Codex.

He even had a name chosen for what he would rename the Imperium if he needed to use force

He prepped his men for the fights that would most likely follow in the near future. Since he did not know whom of the other legions he could trust, he decided to train his men in tactics against most of them I think.

There wasn’t really any indication that he wanted to get read of all the loyal legions. Not that I could tell at least.

He was preparing for the war after the Heresy. One of his men asked why he was doing it and ... okay I just looked it up.

One of his men asked about it and he told his men that his men had to be prepared to be traitors.

"I have a plan, yes, amd it is a dangerous one...when that time comes you will be called traitors...I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium" Rules of Engagment found in the book "Age of Darkness"

 Galdos wrote:
He was preparing for the war after the Heresy. One of his men asked why he was doing it and ... okay I just looked it up.

One of his men asked about it and he told his men that his men had to be prepared to be traitors.

"I have a plan, yes, amd it is a dangerous one...when that time comes you will be called traitors...I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium" Rules of Engagment found in the book "Age of Darkness"

So were in the story does it say again he want to kill the salamanders? :3

I too have also read Rules of Engagement and I don’t see were in the book he says they might have to fight other marines because of the codex.