The Horus Heresy has ended and Imperium has regained control over most of it's territories and started rebuilding. Now, the moment of truth: will you stand beside Guilliman and accept the breakup of the Legions into Chapters or will you stay at Dorn's side and oppose this madness? Explain why.
DarthMarko wrote: OMG this is the best thread on dakka for a long time...Kudos and feth Robby and his plagiarism.....
Personally I just think that Guilliman and the Codex didn't really solve the problem, merely delayed it. The Badab War aside, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the number of Renegade Chapters is increasing with every passing century. It might even be said to have worsened the situation, as Renegade Chapters force the Imperium to fight a form of guerilla war; and as history tells us, guerilla wars are impossible to win for either side.
Yes,it is a plain irony...
In the end "first founding legion(s)" gained younger brothers, who would fight for them if called upon....*read : half of the IoMSM would fight for UM*...
Paradoxically, I even think that decentrilized, semi autonomous chapters are even more dangerous then legions....
The Ultramarines, the Blood Angels, and especially the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels all function as legions in all but name. Basically, all the Codex did was spread the legions thinly across the galaxy. And no, it did not. The guerilla war between the Imperium and the Renegade Chapters might actually be on the same scale as a full-on revolt, albeit in a less obvious fashion. Without exact numbers though, its impossible to tell, though given the setting, it probably is, if not outright worse.
The only Chapter that functions anything like a Legion is the Black Templars Chapter -- not coincidentally, a Chapter that was founded in the immediate aftermath of Dorn's resistance to Codex Astartes.
The DA cooperate on the issue of the Fallen. The UM successors are close allies but have no formal inter-Chapter command structure.
All the doings of renegade chapters has amounted to basically nothing. None of them have accomplished 1/1000th of what Horus did. Those who are not locked up in the Eye are little more than scrounging pirates. Of all of them, only Abaddon dares to even dream of attacking Terra -- and only that in some all but unforeseeable future.
All the doings of renegade chapters has amounted to basically nothing. None of them have accomplished 1/1000th of what Horus did. Those who are not locked up in the Eye are little more than scrounging pirates. Of all of them, only Abaddon dares to even dream of attacking Terra -- and only that in some all but unforeseeable future.
The Administratum could probably provide how much resources, manpower, and time is wasted fighting renegade guerillas across tens of thousands of light years. Not to mention when those 'small' warbands unite under a single leader, they cause huge damage over local areas of space. The cumulative effect would be debilitating, to say the least. Its like the Fall of the Roman Empire all over again.
Well people often forget to draw the Deathwatch into the equation when they are thinking on how many Space Marines they have, and the Ultras seem to have set a dangerous precedence in shipping out anyone who does something wrong in their eyes to Deathwatch. I would due to that fact assume a lot of chapters follows their example and uses the Deathwatch to store excess Space Marines. Of course it's just a theory.
Admiral Valerian wrote: The Administratum could probably provide how much resources, manpower, and time is wasted fighting renegade guerillas across tens of thousands of light years. Not to mention when those 'small' warbands unite under a single leader, they cause huge damage over local areas of space. The cumulative effect would be debilitating, to say the least. Its like the Fall of the Roman Empire all over again.
I'm not saying the CSM are no threat at all. I'm saying, a renegade Chapter is a much smaller problem than a renegade Legion. Yes, it costs significant resources to face down the CSM. But the CSM have not posed an existential threat to the Imperium since the HH.
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Beaviz81 wrote: I would due to that fact assume a lot of chapters follows their example and uses the Deathwatch to store excess Space Marines.
DW assignment is if anything more dangerous than workaday Chapter life. Plus, it's not like the Chapter gets to recall marines serving with the DW whenever it likes. "Storing" excess recruits with DW would be an awful strategy.
Because this "madness" brought a modicum of stability for 10.000 years instead of just a hundred.
Because too much power in one hand has, time and time again, shown to corrupt people with ambitions of leadership.
And lastly, because Mankind's fate can just as well lie in the fate of Man, rather than genetically engineered freaks who are frequently recruited from backwater societies and thus tend to maintain rather strange traditions whilst secluding themselves from the realm they're sworn to protect. Even with the Codex Astartes resulting in severely downsized capabilities, they still cause sufficient friction as-is; imagine how troublesome they could get if they'd be even stronger (-> Badab).
Beaviz81 wrote: I would due to that fact assume a lot of chapters follows their example and uses the Deathwatch to store excess Space Marines.
DW assignment is if anything more dangerous than workaday Chapter life. Plus, it's not like the Chapter gets to recall marines serving with the DW whenever it likes. "Storing" excess recruits with DW would be an awful strategy.
I was not saying it was a good strategy, but it's an useful training-ground for warriors learning them how to fight ever more dangerous xenos. But the two chapters that likely have had the most Space Marines send many Marines away, while their numbers seems to be close to maximum all the time. I attribute that to service in the DW.
I stand with Guilliman. Think of all the Chapter Masters that have gone renegade, now imagine that these guys rise to power in a Legion, not a Chapter. Can you imagine the devastation if one of these renegades was heading up a Legion of who knows how many Marines?
No size restriction, central command structure, no Primarch around, that's a recipe for a disaster bigger than the Heresy.
It also weakened the Imperium militarily. The legions guaranteed Imperial military supremacy. No offense to the Guard, but they just can't completely fill the gap the legions once filled.
The Legions had their advantages, sure. But their disadvantages severely outweigh the advantages. What good is military supremacy if you destroy yourself in civil war?
1000 Space Marines are enough to hold a planet. Think the damage done if you had 10.000 or even 100.000 Space Marines going renegade. That's why Guilliman was right. The IOM is a corpse now, but it at least the Space Marines won't destroy it due to internal strife.
Manchu wrote: The Legions had their advantages, sure. But their disadvantages severely outweigh the advantages. What good is military supremacy if you destroy yourself in civil war?
Fair enough. But with that supremacy, the Tyranids and Orks among others would be less of a pain, the Eldar would be avoiding rather than confronting the Imperium (one legion laid waste to an entire sector full of Maiden Worlds where the Imperial Guard would most likely be slaughtered before they could even conquer one world), and Tau would have ceased to exist.
Yes, Legions could do a lot against all those Xenos. But, looking at the history of the setting, the issue is that the Legions were at least as likely to destroy the Imperium rather than its enemies.
Manchu wrote: The Legions had their advantages, sure. But their disadvantages severely outweigh the advantages. What good is military supremacy if you destroy yourself in civil war?
Fair enough. But with that supremacy, the Tyranids and Orks among others would be less of a pain, the Eldar would be avoiding rather than confronting the Imperium (one legion laid waste to an entire sector full of Maiden Worlds where the Imperial Guard would most likely be slaughtered before they could even conquer one world), and Tau would have ceased to exist.
Manchu wrote: Yes, Legions could do a lot against all those Xenos. But, looking at the history of the setting, the issue is that the Legions were at least as likely to destroy the Imperium rather than its enemies.
Guilliman was right.
Perhaps he was. I'll admit the Codex has certain advantages over the legions, but the way the Astartes (well, most of them; Uriel Ventris and AU Titus are exceptions) hold the Codex as sacred writ (something Guilliman never intended it to be) go a long way to negate those advantages.
Guilliman doomed the empire to decay and a long drawn out fall. With the legions still assembled the empire still would have spread perhaps having frequent revolts but this sort of spread and turmoil while bad for the individual is what fuels a society and keeps it from stagnating. The current setup is set to maintain status quo therefore the range of results for the future is same to worse with no option for better. With the legions around the result range goes to better to way worse which at least gives a chance to improve. (I sometimes think that this was the true goal of the Chaos gods to create a stagnating empire full of despondent potential worshipers)
This is proven by the fact that the empire has been in constant decay for 10,000 years with no upswings in technology or major gains in size. Alternatively they have lost portions of their system to even the Tau...honestly if even 1 legion still existed the Tau would be part of the empire or dead.
Additionally the dark angels really are still a legion in all but name. If the supreme grand master calls for the dark angels chapters they will come abandoning everything to do so. However, the only thing worth putting out the call (angering the high lords of Terra) is the fallen so they cannot act openly and deal with threats like the Tau which would be easily dealt with if the legion was given a free hand.
ansacs wrote: Guilliman doomed the empire to decay and a long drawn out fall. With the legions still assembled the empire still would have spread perhaps having frequent revolts but this sort of spread and turmoil while bad for the individual is what fuels a society and keeps it from stagnating. The current setup is set to maintain status quo therefore the range of results for the future is same to worse with no option for better. With the legions around the result range goes to better to way worse which at least gives a chance to improve. (I sometimes think that this was the true goal of the Chaos gods to create a stagnating empire full of despondent potential worshipers)
This is proven by the fact that the empire has been in constant decay for 10,000 years with no upswings in technology or major gains in size. Alternatively they have lost portions of their system to even the Tau...honestly if even 1 legion still existed the Tau would be part of the empire or dead.
Additionally the dark angels really are still a legion in all but name. If the supreme grand master calls for the dark angels chapters they will come abandoning everything to do so. However, the only thing worth putting out the call (angering the high lords of Terra) is the fallen so they cannot act openly and deal with threats like the Tau which would be easily dealt with if the legion was given a free hand.
Well said; exalted.
Personally, I consider the fall of the legions as contributing to the rise of the misguided and proscribed Imperial Cult, which is ultimately behind the stagnation and regression of the once progressive Human Empire. Legions were powerful on their own, but were designed to operate alongside other Imperial armies, and in the process impart upon them the atheist, rational, and progressive Imperial Truth.
The Codex Astartes might have worked out in the beginning, but its eventual straying from the design Guilliman originally meant it for (it was supposed to be a guide, not holy writ to be obeyed to the letter), religiously-inspired stagnation and regression, and the Imperial leadership's own misguided pursuit to maintain the status quo have doomed the system to failure.
Admiral Valerian wrote:No offense to the Guard, but they just can't completely fill the gap the legions once filled.
I'm not sure I would agree with this opinion.
Admiral Valerian wrote: the misguided and proscribed Imperial Cult, which is ultimately behind the stagnation and regression of the once progressive Human Empire
You mean preservation.
Also, "there are no demons, disregard that fiery beast with the horns, it isn't real" is anything but rational. Your so-called Imperial Truth is a fallacy that (a) is just as bad as anything the Ecclesiarchy puts out and (b) doesn't actually affect the Warp in the slightest.
Admiral Valerian wrote: the misguided and proscribed Imperial Cult, which is ultimately behind the stagnation and regression of the once progressive Human Empire
You mean preservation.
Also, "there are no demons, disregard that fiery beast with the horns, it isn't real" is anything but rational. Your so-called Imperial Truth is a fallacy that (a) is just as bad as anything the Ecclesiarchy puts out and (b) doesn't actually affect the Warp in the slightest.
I'd rather take that risk and deploy psychic specialists to deal with 'Warp void-predators' and have a progressive and technologically advanced empire over a superstitious and slowly collapsing one
You're placing a lot of trust in an institution that is responsible for throwing the Imperium into that very decay you are condemning here in the first place.
I'd rather take that superstitious and slowly collapsing empire over no empire at all.
Lynata wrote: You're placing a lot of trust in an institution that is responsible for throwing the Imperium into that very decay you are condemning here in the first place.
I'd rather take that superstitious and slowly collapsing empire over no empire at all.
ansacs wrote: Guilliman doomed the empire to decay and a long drawn out fall. With the legions still assembled the empire still would have spread perhaps having frequent revolts but this sort of spread and turmoil while bad for the individual is what fuels a society and keeps it from stagnating. The current setup is set to maintain status quo therefore the range of results for the future is same to worse with no option for better. With the legions around the result range goes to better to way worse which at least gives a chance to improve. (I sometimes think that this was the true goal of the Chaos gods to create a stagnating empire full of despondent potential worshipers)
I don't see how having Legions would make any difference to the Imperium increasing in size, this is still happening even with Chapters, the problem is maintaining and holding on to the Worlds that are in the Imperium
.
This is proven by the fact that the empire has been in constant decay for 10,000 years with no upswings in technology or major gains in size. Alternatively they have lost portions of their system to even the Tau...honestly if even 1 legion still existed the Tau would be part of the empire or dead.
I don't think you can blame Guilliman for the Mechanicum and their methods, doesn't it all come down to the teachings of the Omnissiah? The Tau I don't know, you might be right. Maybe their should be an Imperial Astartes army made up of companies from each of the Chapters?
ansacs wrote: Additionally the dark angels really are still a legion in all but name. If the supreme grand master calls for the dark angels chapters they will come abandoning everything to do so. However, the only thing worth putting out the call (angering the high lords of Terra) is the fallen so they cannot act openly and deal with threats like the Tau which would be easily dealt with if the legion was given a free hand.
I think that if any of the First Founding chapters called their successors they would come a knocking, there was the instance with the Blood Angels where they called on their Successors and even the Renegade Knights of Blood answered.
But as a poster earlier stated..what happens when a Legion, now bereft of their primarch and emperor, decides they can do things better than those frail and feeble lords of terra, since after all they have the genes of the greatest heros in history in them, why should they not lead , it would be in the best interests of all the little people.
So a legion rebels, or succeeds or what ever, then another legion will have to be sent to deal with them, (more likely 2 or 3 legions don't want to leave it to chance), how many of these mini-heresies can the IoM sustain, and how much devastated worlds would it consume, since a legion will not fight over worthless worlds..forgeworlds, and major ports would be the battle grounds.
Gulliman was looking to the day when there would be no primarchs, and no way to balance the power of so many superhumans with not much humanity left, and the hubris that follows.
Thing is, Guilliman didn't take into account the Imperium's own religiously-imposed stagnation. This is just as destructive as inter-legionary conflicts.
If it wasn't for the religious side of things the Imperium would have split into a thousand petty empires already. It is the glue, the common ground, that holds it together. The Imperial Truth was doomed as soon as the Lectitio Divinatus started to do the rounds.
You can't have a figure as powerful as the Emperor not held as a God in the eyes of at least some of the people and it only takes a few loose stones to start a landslide.
The fact is that humanity is losing ground, slowly, but losing nonetheless. Having individual chapters may keep the cost of one going rogue at a more manageable one, but I think that's sort of a cheesy argument.
Let's look at the battle of Macragge against the Tyranids, ok? Essentially the Ultramarines were combat ineffective after driving off a splinter fleet. Not only did the Tyranids remove the UM's from the theater of war for two to three hundred years (I forget where I read this, so it may be an inflated number), they succeeded in nearly destroying two battlefleets.
Now, with that information at hand, can anyone really say that if the Ultramarines as a legion had faced the splinter fleet, the outcome would have been far more in favor of the Imperium? Not only that but the legion would not have been crippled for as long as the chapter was aftwards.
Granted there are a crapload of what-ifs, but I think there wouldn't have been so many Black Crusades, Ghaz wouldn't have gotten a second chance at Armageddon, and the Tyranids wouldn't pose nearly the threat they do now, if the legions had remained. Of course, you can argue the 'absolute power corrupts absolutely' thing, but looking at the legions as they were, can people say that had the Primarchs continued to lead them, another civil war would've gone down?
I don't like the idea that fear directed 'ol Robby's decision to make the codex. The Guard does a fine job of holding the line in the absence of the legions, but that's all they do. React to invasions, hold onto what they can, and in the rarer cases, push the enemy back. Just think of what an entire legion could do against something like the Maelstrom, or even the Eye. It would be possible to keep Chaos in check (weird pun), so much to the point that the Imperium could direct large portions of resources towards dealing with the Nid thread.
Pilau Rice wrote: But aren't say 10 Chapters of a thousand marines just as capable as a legion, if not more flexible?
No, the lack of a unified command structure would be a major disadvantage. Numerical equivalence does not make for equivalent effectiveness.
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Lynata wrote: You're placing a lot of trust in an institution that is responsible for throwing the Imperium into that very decay you are condemning here in the first place.
This pretty much sums up why Legions needed to go and Chapter, if nothing else, have basically mitigated the severe damage done by Legions.
You can't have a figure as powerful as the Emperor not held as a God in the eyes of at least some of the people and it only takes a few loose stones to start a landslide.
Apparently, the Emperor himself disagreed with such a view. Even to the point of burning down a whole city, and personally breaking the last priest on Ancient Terra.
The Emperor wrote:
Only when Humanity is free from a religion that teaches us not to question will we see its true brilliance.
Pilau Rice wrote: If it wasn't for the religious side of things the Imperium would have split into a thousand petty empires already. It is the glue, the common ground, that holds it together.
This is 100% correct. The hidebound character of Imperial devotion may have its downsides but the advantages are what make the Imperium possible in the first place.
Lynata wrote: You're placing a lot of trust in an institution that is responsible for throwing the Imperium into that very decay you are condemning here in the first place.
This pretty much sums up why Legions needed to go and Chapter, if nothing else, have basically mitigated the severe damage done by Legions.
The decay was caused and propagated by the Imperial Cult.
The imperiums stagnation is also a symptom of its size, its enemies and its internal structure, the HH almost destroyed the IoM, it showed many of the most important leaders remaining that there was something else , out there some force that can almost lay low their own emperor, something to be afraid of in the dark.
And when people are afraid of the dark, they go for faith, faith in something that will save them, and the emperor had already set himself up in that position whether he wanted it or not.
Gulliman had just witnessed almost the death of the IoM, and he did what any reasonable individual would do..take steps to keep it from ever happening again, and the nucleus of the HH was the concentration of power in the legions, and the damage those could cause.
So in some ways the Emperor may have forge the Empire, but Gulliman saved it.
but grimdarkness is stagnation, its kinda the whole theme of the 40kIoM.
Admiral Valerian wrote: Apparently, the Emperor himself disagreed with such a view. Even to the point of burning down a whole city, and personally breaking the last priest on Ancient Terra.
Perhaps the Emperor had a plan that did not involve religion. But it failed.
Pilau Rice wrote: If it wasn't for the religious side of things the Imperium would have split into a thousand petty empires already. It is the glue, the common ground, that holds it together.
This is 100% correct. The hidebound character of Imperial devotion may have its downsides but the advantages are what make the Imperium possible in the first place.
Its also causing it to die a slow and painful death.
You can't have a figure as powerful as the Emperor not held as a God in the eyes of at least some of the people and it only takes a few loose stones to start a landslide.
Apparently, the Emperor himself disagreed with such a view. Even to the point of burning down a whole city, and personally breaking the last priest on Ancient Terra.
The Emperor wrote:
Only when Humanity is free from a religion that teaches us not to question will we see its true brilliance.
Pilau Rice wrote: If it wasn't for the religious side of things the Imperium would have split into a thousand petty empires already. It is the glue, the common ground, that holds it together.
This is 100% correct. The hidebound character of Imperial devotion may have its downsides but the advantages are what make the Imperium possible in the first place.
Its also causing it to die a slow and painful death.
Rather than a fast and fiery one as each Empire is picked off one by one.
There is a reason why the Emperor started the Great Crusade.
Pilau Rice wrote: But aren't say 10 Chapters of a thousand marines just as capable as a legion, if not more flexible?
No, the lack of a unified command structure would be a major disadvantage. Numerical equivalence does not make for equivalent effectiveness.
Ok true.
But, say in the case of the Badab war a Chapter Master was assigned as overall commander of operations with the various other Chapter Masters kinda like a council.
Also, if if it did come to be necessary, wouldn't their be a Warmaster like Slaydo or an Inquisitor in overall command?
That is like saying that life itself is nothing more than a slow and painful death.
But with life there is a chance of improvement. For the Imperium, there is no chance whatsoever, because the status quo is more important than anything else in this failing system.
You can't have a figure as powerful as the Emperor not held as a God in the eyes of at least some of the people and it only takes a few loose stones to start a landslide.
Apparently, the Emperor himself disagreed with such a view. Even to the point of burning down a whole city, and personally breaking the last priest on Ancient Terra.
The Emperor wrote:
Only when Humanity is free from a religion that teaches us not to question will we see its true brilliance.
And the Emperor was never wrong about anything?
Considering the damage caused by religious stagnation, in this case he was correct.
Reason, logic, and technological certainty: the bases for the Emperor's vision of the future, are all grounds for heresy in the Imperium's current iteration. On the other hand, blind faith and ignorance are encouraged.
Ignorance is not encouraged in all its forms. Ignorance of certain this is encouraged because it is safer, on a cosmological scale, than knowledge. Ignorance is one of the many virtues that, when properly applied, has kept the Imperium not only in existence but also the dominant power in the galaxy.
As Lynata pointed out to you, more or less, it was the Emperor's vision of hope, light, and reason that produced the GrimDark. That is the point of the setting. When you try what is good IRL in the 40k setting, you get only death, terror, and grief. In 40k, bad things are necessary therefore bad things are as close to good things as you can get.
How can you be certain there would be any progress, how can you say that a few generations of space marines down the line from the primarchs would eventually attack and take terra and impose a new god..the gods in flesh of the legions astartes,
or do you think that technology is the only salvation man can find against the demons of the warp.
While they stagnated in technology, they advanced in faith and knowledge of the terrors of the warp, I guess the two are mutually exclusive.
I just suspect that the very fallible and vain various legions of the spacemarines would have led to more, and possible the final death gasps of the IoM, not a glorious future, that future died with the emperor, now its just life support.
I'd stand with Guilliman, not a doubt about that. Dorn was flying rodent gak insane at this point while Guilliman actually tried to salvage the situation instead of running off to an obvious trap to get himself killed.
As for people argueing about the chapters being less effective then full legions. It would not change a thing. The legions already worked in the form of chapters/companies (depending on legion for the actual numbers per chapter or company). They would've had to split off regardless to keep protecting all of Imperial space.
The split into actual chapters brought only benefits because the chapters themselves got more control over their actions and thus we're more readily available to protect where needed. As mentioned before, it also reduced the risk of massive numbers of Astartes turning rogue or Traitor in one go to where it is now more of a trickle in comparison to a full legion going at once.
Taking the example of the Hive fleet attacking Macragge, imagine if Ultramarines we're still a full legion. What would this have changed? Nothing, because their legion would still be scattered all over the Galaxy. If you we're to gather the entire legion to fend off the Hive fleet the Imperium would have suffered losses far greater then those the hive fleet could've ever hoped to inflict.
I don't see how having Legions would make any difference to the Imperium increasing in size, this is still happening even with Chapters, the problem is maintaining and holding on to the Worlds that are in the Imperium.
The legions were conquest machines by their very existence the thought process is lead to expansion and meeting new cultures (or lost ones).
The imperial guard are much better defensive weapon than the legions ever could be but the legions are an offensive weapon to begin with and so can do what the imperial guard cannot. That is invade a world without destroying the entire infrastructure due to drawn out fighting, guard do wars of attrition SM do blitzkrieg.
Now I cannot promise that the expansion would not overextend but even an over extension and mini fall would still lead humanity forward not in decaying stasis. A shot at better is better than always getting worse.
I don't think you can blame Guilliman for the Mechanicum and their methods, doesn't it all come down to the teachings of the Omnissiah? The Tau I don't know, you might be right. Maybe their should be an Imperial Astartes army made up of companies from each of the Chapters?
This is partly true but as stated above the codex astartes is mind set as well as a rules system. Without that mind set the SM legions would have had a 10 chances to have one legion that kept trying to expand the empire. Empire expansion tends to drive ingenuity and invention due to meeting new cultures. It is no wonder that periods of exploration and conquest always have technological and social upheaval.
I think that if any of the First Founding chapters called their successors they would come a knocking, there was the instance with the Blood Angels where they called on their Successors and even the Renegade Knights of Blood answered.
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There is a difference between calling a chapter and it responding and having a dark angels shadow command structure where the chapter will abandon allies to die so they can respond to a specific commanded action. The new dex is pretty clear that the high lords of Terra are correct and the 1st legion has never truly disassembled. It is part of the unique DA mythos and is why they are my only SM army, I love that mythos. They are a secret shadowy organization lurking behind the scenes and making investigators "disappear" all to hunt down the *fallen.
*If you are not a member of the inner circle the fallen do not exist and you should immediately report yourself to a member of the inner circle for education.
Additionally if all the chapters will as you say always respond then the codex astartes has failed utterly in its purpose as they still can rebuild the legions at a moments notice. So if any first founding chapter rebels then the child chapters will also rebel according to that logic. What does the codex astartes actually accomplish then?
Admiral Valerian wrote:Reason, logic, and technological certainty: the bases for the Emperor's vision of the future, are all grounds for heresy in the Imperium's current iteration. On the other hand, blind faith and ignorance are encouraged.
Blind faith is a nice tool to enforce conformism, and thus stability. Also, your "Imperial Truth" seems pretty ignorant as well.
Also: Why does your criticism always seems aimed solely at the Ecclesiarchy and not the Mechanicus? That institution is just as religious, has been even during the times of the Great Crusade, and arguably bears a greater responsibility when it comes to the decay of technology - and given the role of technology in culture, in a way also a responsibility to the decay of Imperial culture as a whole.
Pilau Rice wrote:The Tau I don't know, you might be right. Maybe their should be an Imperial Astartes army made up of companies from each of the Chapters?
Technically, this option still exists. For specific campaigns and warzones, the Imperium frequently creates army groups consisting of all Imperial forces, led by a single general. The IoM could do the same if they'd wish to crush the Tau, but for the time being it's better to simply direct these resources elswhere. It'd be the exactly same if the Astartes grouped into one such armies would belong to a Legion rather than Chapters - just with a higher risk of insubordination due to an increased loyalty in a single commander.
Admiral Valerian wrote:Reason, logic, and technological certainty: the bases for the Emperor's vision of the future, are all grounds for heresy in the Imperium's current iteration. On the other hand, blind faith and ignorance are encouraged.
Blind faith is a nice tool to enforce conformism, and thus stability. Also, your "Imperial Truth" seems pretty ignorant as well.
Also: Why does your criticism always seems aimed solely at the Ecclesiarchy and not the Mechanicus? That institution is just as religious, has been even during the times of the Great Crusade, and arguably bears a greater responsibility when it comes to the decay of technology - and given the role of technology in culture, in a way also a responsibility to the decay of Imperial culture as a whole.
I have noticed that as well. The hatred for the Eccleciarchy is burning red-hot. Even though the dogma have saved the day more than once as it's the belief in the Emperor that fuels his armies rather than the more progressive members. It's that dark a future.
It seems to be a fairly common theme inside the fandom, though. "Ecclesiarchy = bad, Mechanicus = good".
I suppose it's explained best by meta-knowledge coupled with personal convictions, resulting in a biased perception of a fictional entity. The Mechanicus is further removed from anything we've got in the real world and thus save from such "taint"?
I think i will stand with Roboute Guilliman. Though not by a large margin.
Chapters make the chance of all out heresy less hurtfull or possible. It has worked in the way that betrayals hurt less. 1000 or 10.000 traitors? Ill take the 1000..... though for the defenders of the IOM it has hurt them... Scatterd all aournd sectors and systems... It sometimes takes weeks or months to come to the rescue with quite a meagre force...
The guardsman cant be counted upon,.. they turn traitor real quick most of the times...
Lynata wrote: It seems to be a fairly common theme inside the fandom, though. "Ecclesiarchy = bad, Mechanicus = good".
It's an IRL attitude. It's how Richard Dawkins sells his gospel of "reason."
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: The guardsman cant be counted upon,.. they turn traitor real quick most of the times...
Again, Lord Solar Mecharius accomplished quite a lot. Yes, at the end, his men did not dare go further. But a thousand worlds conquered in seven years is pretty astounding, even by Primarch standards.
Macharius' crusade reached the borders of the Crusade-era Imperium, did it not? I vaguely recall reading something like that in the 6E rulebook .. will have to re-read that section. The older Guard 'dexes may also offer some info there.
Lynata wrote: It seems to be a fairly common theme inside the fandom, though. "Ecclesiarchy = bad, Mechanicus = good".
It's an IRL attitude. It's how Richard Dawkins sells his gospel of "reason."
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: The guardsman cant be counted upon,.. they turn traitor real quick most of the times...
Again, Lord Solar Mecharius accomplished quite a lot. Yes, at the end, his men did not dare go further. But a thousand worlds conquered in seven years is pretty astounding, even by Primarch standards.
True, but the exception is a single event,.. While on the other hand guardsman turn traitor almost daily
A guardsman turning traitor is of little consequence. A Space Marine turning traitor is much worse. That's why they are separate in everything and only deal with each other in terms of their officers.
It's tough coming into this post after so points have been made and then overlooked as other points came up.
The first thing I would like to say is that the game is supposed to be a grim, dark, gothic universe where "No matter what happens, you will not be remembered" to quote the BRB. That kind of scale in tandem with that setting doesn't leave a lot of room for optimism, or even for the idea of improvement. Now, like it or not, that is the setting of the game and on some level it either appeals to all of us that play or appealed to us at one point. I hate to use the term because a lot of people can spin it negatively, but for better or worse, that is the status quo.
If there were hope that things could improve, or that a solution to the Imperium's woes were attainable, than it would disrupt the setting. It would destroy the status quo.
While that may not be sufficient to explain how grim things are from an in-universe Imperial perspective, but it alone explains to me why the Imperium was written that was from the meta perspective.
Part of me (as an American) agrees with Manchu and his assertion that the ultimate goal of the foundings was to limit the amount of power a single person could wield. That idea is morally comforting and pragmatic in a way, but falls apart if looked at from afar. I cannot make a claim as to the nature of power itself, but in every historical context that we as humans can recount, it is always wielded by one person in favor of others. The difference is not how much power, but who. Kinds or Tryants, Presidents or Dictators. Or... in this context, Primarchs or Chapter Masters. The power they wield is still power, albeit to a lesser degree, but power still and of a dangerous and potentially crippling nature. it is still wielded by fallible, mortal, humans.
The global reduction in "power" is a double edged sword. It wounds both sides equally. While renegade chapters are less of a threat individually, the loyalist chapters are just as "unthreatening" to the forces of Chaos. Also, the enemies mankind faces are not dividing up their forces and reducing their numbers the way the SM chapters are. Tyranids do not number 1000 strong fleets... or even 100,000 strong... but billions or possibly trillions of nids per fleet that we've encountered. tally that with the untold trillions of orks that pillage and plunder sectors in Waaghs so strong that many chapters+IG legions are called to halt. And the fact that Chaos legions are still.... legions.
I think it was a well intentioned move that would in any realistic context, do more harm than good.
I'm having difficulty following your point. The issue is that Legions are much more powerful than Chapters. If a Legion rebels, the potential damage is of a far, far graver magnitude than if a Chapter rebels. Since the HH, some number of Chapters -- whether many or few compared to the overall amount -- have rebelled. And yet in all this time, no such rebellion has rivaled in any sense the threat posed by the HH. The point is inarguable: the Codex Astartes has prevented any further existential threat to the Imperium arising from Space Marines.
And nothing prevents multiple Chapters to work together to face a common foe just like a single Legion would have done. The Inquisition often manages to pull together task forces requisitioned from several Chapters, the High Lords of Terra can authorize temporary Warmasters (or councils with the same degree of authority) to deal with a specific threat, and often enough we have Chapters working together on voluntary basis as a matter of honor. Case in point: 13th Black Crusade --> Astartes Praeses (see addendum to Marine deployments here)
Sure, if you consider all those feuds between the Chapters or the spatial distances between them, it's still not a perfect substitute. But certainly a much safer approach that achieves nearly the same capabilities.
Manchu wrote: I'm having difficulty following your point. The issue is that Legions are much more powerful than Chapters. If a Legion rebels, the potential damage is of a far, far graver magnitude than if a Chapter rebels. Since the HH, some number of Chapters -- whether many or few compared to the overall amount -- have rebelled. And yet in all this time, no such rebellion has rivaled in any sense the threat posed by the HH. The point is inarguable: the Codex Astartes has prevented any further existential threat to the Imperium arising from Space Marines.
I believe it was you who argued in another thread that you cannot judge things based on what is not written.. There has been no written account of a unified body posing as great a threat to the Imperium as the HH. But... there never will. The Imperium is safe from such things because its wearing plot armor, not because of the Codex Astartes. The assertion that the Codex is what staves that off is no more founded than saying that its prevented because some random character does a rain dance every Thursday.
Look at it like this. Numerically, prior to the HH, there were ZERO betrayals. And during the HH there were a total of 9 legions that fell. 9 is not a large number, and if the legions numbered 100,000 strong that's 900,000 Marines that turned their back on humanity. Chapters after the Codex are 1,000 strong, and there are many chapters, not all of which are even accounted for or accurately recorded. How many of them have fallen in 10,000 years? Probably quite a few, and as each chapter falls the whole of forces arrayed against humanity is strengthened.
Mankind's finest protectors (SM) are no longer led by 20 of the most supernaturally gifted servants of the emperor. Instead, they are led by normal (by comparison to the Primarchs) Marines who have climbed a ladder of rank to Chapter Master. If anything. It took the combined effort and careful orchestration of all for warp gods to tempt 9 Primarchs from the Emperor. What does it take to make a chapter fall? How many have fallen... a great count more than 9 I would wager. Each one of them adding to the whole of the enemies of man
9 may not be a tall number, but combined with the Legions' numerical size it makes for a whole lot of troops that turned traitor all at once. I mean, we're basically talking almost half of all the armed forces here.
Compared to the Post-Heresy situation - sure, you have individual Marines, companies, even entire Chapters that go rogue. But not all at once, and the Codex Astartes has crippled them sufficiently that the Adepta Sororitas or other Imperial forces can, with a degree of reliability, purge them before they become an actual threat.
If you'd still have Legions, what would you do if their commander suddenly decides he's better off alone, or with the enemy? Even if just one Legion turns its back, 5% sounds much more dangerous than 0.1% (assuming we're sticking to 20 Legions vs 1.000 Chapters), not to mention that "back then" the Legions also had authority over the Imperial Army, meaning Post-HH you'd have rogue elements of the Guard and the Navy in addition to your rogue Legion.
Limiting the extent of such conflicts and minimising potential losses sounds like a fairly smart thing to do - basically, it means the Imperium is planning ahead for the worst case scenario.
Lynata has it right. Add to that the fact that a SM Legion comes with an even more sizable amount of "mortal" troops and ... ugh. EDIT: I see she covered that, actually.
The old "plot armor" argument is meaningless here. Codex Astartes is part of the plot armor.
Causing the breakup in the monolithic legions, into smaller chapters, that down through the ages have each developed their own character, traditions, structure and SOP, has helped to compartmentalize any damage their loss could cause.
Its much harder to subvert 100 chapters than one leader of one legion, also spacemarines have a ripple factor, local troops tend to hold them in awe, and will be much easier to sway the leaders, this again is compartmentalized since a smaller force of marines equals a smaller footprint for this.
And organizing forces for crusades is not that difficult, if the forces are there, its just the IoM is so vast, and trying to hold things together calls for a fire brigade approach.
Now with the IoM structure, it requires traitors in all levels of the command structure, (navy, guard, mechanicus, marines, etc) to fully realize a major rebellion, it was a across the board de-centralization, its just the codex astartes is the most visible.
Admiral Valerian wrote:Reason, logic, and technological certainty: the bases for the Emperor's vision of the future, are all grounds for heresy in the Imperium's current iteration. On the other hand, blind faith and ignorance are encouraged.
Blind faith is a nice tool to enforce conformism, and thus stability. Also, your "Imperial Truth" seems pretty ignorant as well.
Also: Why does your criticism always seems aimed solely at the Ecclesiarchy and not the Mechanicus? That institution is just as religious, has been even during the times of the Great Crusade, and arguably bears a greater responsibility when it comes to the decay of technology - and given the role of technology in culture, in a way also a responsibility to the decay of Imperial culture as a whole.
Good question; the answer is simple: the Emperor proscribed Emperor-worship, but accepted the Mechanicum. And if you haven't noticed, when the Imperium was progressive during the Great Crusade, the Mechanicum was also progressive. But when the Imperium focused on the status quo and became stagnant, so did the Mechanicum. Tech-Priests and their lay followers are still Human; they're still influenced by the greater herd mentality. God, I hate the herd mentality, whether IRL or in fiction.
I always thought they should retcon to around 4-7,000 Battle brothers in a chapter(not including techmarines librarians, honor gaurd, apothecary,chaplains, etc) 1000 seems like it wouldn't be enough to replenish after a major loss and still be able to fight.
amudkipz wrote: I always thought they should retcon to around 4-7,000 Battle brothers in a chapter(not including techmarines librarians, honor gaurd, apothecary,chaplains, etc) 1000 seems like it wouldn't be enough to replenish after a major loss and still be able to fight.
This is my problem with SM chapters. They are laughably small. Yeah I know they are all supermen but operationally they just simply could not do the things attributed to them.
Also, compared to pre-heresy, sm commanders have been separated from commanding Imperial Guard formations and Imperial Navy fleets. By breaking the sm into 1k strong chapters it really hamstrings any operation that needs say 10k or more marines. It would be far easier to assemble a force that subdivided a legion than hunt around for 10 or 15 far flung chapters and deal with the politics of all these virtually autonomous and insular military units.
Gulliman's subdivision into chapters of 1k marines is ludicrous from a logistic perspective. The fact that the SM did not have access to guard or fleet would have been enough separation of power. The problem is that GW writers have a really terrible time with numbers and their numbers for all kinds of things associated with the background are just silly and really poor examples of science fiction.
Admiral Valerian wrote:Good question; the answer is simple: the Emperor proscribed Emperor-worship, but accepted the Mechanicum. And if you haven't noticed, when the Imperium was progressive during the Great Crusade, the Mechanicum was also progressive. But when the Imperium focused on the status quo and became stagnant, so did the Mechanicum. Tech-Priests and their lay followers are still Human; they're still influenced by the greater herd mentality. God, I hate the herd mentality, whether IRL or in fiction.
The Emperor forbade Lorgar to convert people to him because it was a waste of time and resources, and because he wanted his warriors to actually do a bit of warring. Conversely, he needed the resources and the knowledge that Mars had hoarded, so he just went along with the Tech-Priests' little thing as anything else would've been a waste of time again. There was a crusade to do, after all.
And no, I admit I did not notice. Which great innovations did the Mechanicus make during the Great Crusade? From all I've read, the tech was either leftovers from before the guys on Mars nuked themselves, or the stuff Emps brought along. The Imperium of Man had to rely on STC-recovery and retro-engineering from day 1.
The worlds of the Adeptus Mechanicus, just like Astartes fiefs, are governed in semi-independence from the Adeptus Terra and thus the Imperial Church. I don't see how one could have influenced the other, and I don't see why it should have been necessary. The AdMech has always been a bunch of religious nutjobs whose secrecy and jealousy regarding anything mechanical is the driving force between the Imperium's technological decay. Your "herd mentality" existed in the AdMech first, and the worshippers of the Machine Cult are every bit as zealous as the Ecclesiarchy.
I guess some of the above might depend on what sources we're following, though? I must admit I care little for those HH novels and know little of their contents, instead preferring to collect and read from White Dwarf etc.
amudkipz wrote:1000 seems like it wouldn't be enough to replenish after a major loss and still be able to fight.
Standard Astartes engagements seem to focus around a single Battle Company reinforced with elements of the Reserve - such a task force incurring major losses would not affect the Chapter as a whole too much. Codex-era Marines are supposed to be an auxiliary force helping the Imperial Guard to win wars - ideally they just don't get in any fights where they'd incur major losses to the entire Chapter.
That being said, I believe what really should be looked at is some Chapters' rather ridiculous recruitment rate. In general it seems fine, but some individual Chapters have really strange fluff where you think they'd only be able to replace a single squad of casualties every decade or so. This in itself wouldn't be so problematic if that very same Chapter would just sit tight until they've recovered from their losses, but instead they go zipping through the Imperium, jumping from one battle to the next.
I dunno, maybe somebody just lost perspective there.
And yet during the two centuries of the Great Crusade, more technologies were recovered/developed/improved than in the ten thousand years since. An example is Power Armor: six Mks of Power Armor were developed at the time, while only 2 Mks of Power Armor have been developed since.
As a Wolf player, you may be able to guess that the Codex Astartes doesn't really make sense to me, all chapters should be the same size, but they should be huge, not tiny.
strybjorn Grimskull wrote: As a Wolf player, you may be able to guess that the Codex Astartes doesn't really make sense to me, all chapters should be the same size, but they should be huge, not tiny.
Few Huge ones>lots of small ones
Few huge ones means that if just half betray then an incomprehensible amount of damage will occur....oh wait it did and was called the Horus Heresy. The idea of chapters makes perfect sense, in terms of damage limitation and also tactical flexibility. A thousand marines can be used surgically as it is easy to keep track of individuals chapter, squads etc. A legion is a conquering steamroller, which although frickin awesome is harder to use defending the imperium. And space marine chapters always co-ordinate to become legion size strength when a major threat happens like the Damocles Gulf Crusade, the 13th BC and the third war of Armageddon. The results speak for themselves, no major rebellions by SM apart from the badab war since the HH
If the Legions remained as they were the imperium would have fallen long ago. Ignoring the issues of heresy or revolt you have the simple fact that they wouldn't be able to cover enough ground.
You would have had 9 Legions. That's 9 different threats they can respond to. The modern chapters can respond to a 1000 different threats.
If you say 'well the legions would simply split their numbers to cover more ground and detach into task forces' - how is that any different from modern chapters?
The chapters work better than the legions as defensive units. The Imperium has been on the defensive for the past 10,000 years. It's created its empire, it just needs to hold it. The chapters enable it to do this. They're a flexible, mobile force that won't compromise the security of the Imperium.
I don't get this 'legions would give the Imperium the military edge'. There's just as many space marines in the chapters as there would have been in the loyalist legions. There just less concentrated, which is better for the Imperium in all respects. When the force of more than one chapter is required they simple gather more. The legions do nothing better than chapters and would in fact be significantly worse.
Manchu wrote: It's an IRL attitude. It's how Richard Dawkins sells his gospel of "reason."
I do agree with Dawkins in RL, here's the problem. While I want real world to be 'the best possible' world (as I judge such things), I certainly don't want 40K to be that! I want it to be the worst possible world.
This is what I do not get about people like Valerian. If they had their way Imperium would be a glorious secular superpower, filled with amazing technology and ruled by wise and unerring Primarchs.
Which would utterly ruin the setting! Don't these people get the point of 40k? It is supposed to be a dystopia!
I agree with crimson, the whole point of the IoM is a backward look at its greatest days...supreme heros, gods walking with men, and it all almost ended by those same beings.
Now normal very flawed men and women try to hold a crumbling massive empire together as it cracks from without and rots from within, but each branch of the IoM's government thinking they have the keys to the salvation of man.
When it comes down to it, I have always thought the lords of terra are both frightened and in awe of the spacemarines, since in defiance to almost every other part of the engine of mankind, the marines stand apart and do their own thing.
It makes them unpredictable, maybe gulliman even thought far enough ahead to know the way to preserve the astartes was a way to make them appear less a threat to the future generations of mankind, and sooth any misgivings as to the pivotal role that renegade spacemarines played in the almost complete downfall of the Imperium.
The Codex may have been written to save his brothers.
40k is a dystopia, but being a religious nutjob doesn't mean the person is an idiot. That's how you survive in the grim future of 40k where it is only war.
Who's to say entire legions would turn? That didn't even happen in the Heresy. Fully 1/3(?) of each traitor legion stayed loyal. I doubt half as many would turn if a non-primarch was in charge. Maybe companies, but I Seriously doubt it would be 10K+ marines just dancing off into the Eye of Terror. It would have been more efficient to elect for a council w/ figure head approach to legion leadership than to split them all up.
Plus they SHOULD rebel and stamp out the Ecclesiarchy. Those dudes are crazy as hell.
Let's just say a Legion comprises 100,000 SM. If 1/3 were to remain loyal, you'd still have 67,000 traitors. So one traitor Legion, just numerically, would consist of about 67 Chapters. Plus it's unified command structure and culture would make it more effective than 67 traitor chapters struggling to cooperate.
Admiral Valerian wrote:And yet during the two centuries of the Great Crusade, more technologies were recovered/developed/improved than in the ten thousand years since. An example is Power Armor: six Mks of Power Armor were developed at the time, while only 2 Mks of Power Armor have been developed since.
Looting STCs recovered in conquest and adopting technology the Emperor gave them isn't invention, and slapping an additional plate of armour on a suit of power armour isn't either. Do you have any actual inventions to list? Do you doubt that the current Imperium wouldn't deploy just as much advanced technology if they'd push out into unclaimed territory as the Emperor did when he set out from Mars?
Imperial technology is derived almost 99% from re-engineering items claimed in war, and 1% from minor and rather obvious improvements to existing systems. This does not change the Mechanicus' resistance towards actual progress.
Also, what Crimson said. I'm here for the Grimdark, and I think you're really missing out if you just throw it all away due to RL convictions, Valerian!
Am I the only one who think some people are really harsh on the Eccleschiarchy for no good reason other than religion is evil?
I mean come-on without them the IOM wouldn't exist. Even the loveable chars I know you like are extremely fanatical, they are just put in a good light.
The God-Emperor is the guiding light of hope in that dark galaxy and you are nagging at the guys responsible for holding the shattered domain of his together.
Lynata wrote: Do you have any actual inventions to list?
The only thing that I can think of off the top of my head is the perfection of voidship lances according to one of the BFG books. But that happened some time after the Great Crusade, IIRC.
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Beaviz81 wrote: Am I the only one who think some people are really harsh on the Eccleschiarchy for no good reason other than religion is evil?
No, others have posted ITT about feeling the same way.
Beaviz81 wrote:Am I the only one who think some people are really harsh on the Eccleschiarchy for no good reason other than religion, except that of the Machine God because that one is totally cool, is evil?
Beaviz81 wrote: Am I the only one who think some people are really harsh on the Eccleschiarchy for no good reason other than religion is evil?
No, others have posted ITT about feeling the same way.
I certainly agree.
Even from a purely rational standpoint and ignoring any religious desires, the Imperial Cult serves a real, and valuable purpose to the Imperium, in keeping the average citizen loyal and suppressing the excesses of Chaos cults, who by their very nature desire to destabilize all societies in which they exist.
Maybe the Mechanicum doesn't bother people as much because they're so exclusive. The Ecclesiarchy insist you believe; the Mechanicum won't even tell you what they believe.
Manchu wrote: Let's just say a Legion comprises 100,000 SM. If 1/3 were to remain loyal, you'd still have 67,000 traitors. So one traitor Legion, just numerically, would consist of about 67 Chapters. Plus it's unified command structure and culture would make it more effective than 67 traitor chapters struggling to cooperate.
And I highly doubt that many would go rogue under a chaptermaster-esque figure. Primarchs were akin to fathers to their legions. Its understandable that many went awol.
Also, the AdMech was more progressive with the tech they recovered than its current iteration of "that's some holy crap, leave it be until we run out of parts!" They are still crazy, but in a better way in my eyes. What are some positive, progressive feats of The Ecclesiarchy?
And I agree, i'm here for grimdark, but it is also reasonable to discuss the "what could have beens" of the setting.
Sure, I meant generally. Say you send a Tech Priest and a Ministorum official out to some newly discovered planet. The Ministorum official will set about to converting the population to the Imperial Creed. The Tech Priest would not teach anyone about the Omnissiah or the ways of the machine spirits and might even kill anyone who blasphemously pried into that knowledge.
Manchu wrote: Sure, I meant generally. Say you send a Tech Priest and a Ministorum official out to some newly discovered planet. The Ministorum official will set about to converting the population to the Imperial Creed. The Tech Priest would not teach anyone about the Omnissiah or the ways of the machine spirits and might even kill anyone who blasphemously pried into that knowledge.
You forgot about pointing at proper inventions and calling them technosorcery/heresy.
TBH, so do chapter masters. Chapter masters are incredibly revered in most cases. The best examples are Calgar and Dante. We just don't know as much about the Chapter Masters as the Primarchs.
Fester McAgue wrote: What are some positive, progressive feats of The Ecclesiarchy?
The Ecclesiarchy demands very few things. Be a human, worship the Emperor, do not worship Chaos or Xenos, and pay your taxes.
As such, it is comprised of innumerable sects and sub-sects-- it is actually a very accepting and open religious organization. There are countless religious belief sets within the Ecclesiarchy, and indeed, the Ecclesiarchy does its best to make sure any new human cultures are integrated in to the Imperium as seamlessly as possible. Oftentimes, the Ecclesiarchy's Missionarius Galaxia works tirelessly over generations to ensure that a world is ready to be integrated in to the Imperium with minimal bloodshed or disruption-- and while trying to change their culture as subtly as possible, resulting in huge varieties of cultures, with huge varieties of religious practices, all being under the same banner.
The Ecclesiarchy is actually quite progressive in that sense.
Let's be honest: any openness in the Ecclesiarchy is really just a cynical matter of control. They let you keep some of your beliefs up to the point where those beliefs would be seditious.
Have to agree with Mel here. There's novels with worlds essentialy stuck in medieval times still worshipping the sun. The Ecclesiarchy just convinced them the sun was the Emperor and that was that.
TBH, so do chapter masters. Chapter masters are incredibly revered in most cases. The best examples are Calgar and Dante. We just don't know as much about the Chapter Masters as the Primarchs.
I always assumed they were more akin to older, venerated siblings but still fallible and could be openly opposed in some cases, e.g the Space Wolves do that moot hearing or what have you, I can't exactly remember specifics but a captain more or less told The Great Wolf he was a thickheaded moron in battle of the fang.
Melissia wrote: The same argument has been made about religions in the real world.
The difference is, we know that is the purpose of the Ecclesiarchy in 40k.
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Fester McAgue wrote: I can't exactly remember specifics but a captain more or less told The Great Wolf he was a thickheaded moron in battle of the fang.
Uhh, sure, you're talking about SW in that instance. You won't catch a BA saying anything like that to Dante.
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Soladrin wrote: The Ecclesiarchy just convinced them the sun was the Emperor and that was that.
Right so then you must see that the Ecclesiarchy is not doing anything for their benefit. They're content to worship the sun. It hasn't caused them any trouble before. The Ecclesiarchy does not ask much -- just complete obedience.
Melissia wrote: The same argument has been made about religions in the real world.
The difference is, we know that is the purpose of the Ecclesiarchy in 40k.
And many people purport to know the purpose of churches IRL-- I've heard people argue time and again that the largest reason for the continued existence of churches, especially the Catholic church, is a desire for control over others.
My point is that the reasons behind their actions aren't entirely relevant, when we can examine the effects of their actions over hte course of 10,000 years. 40k isn't reality, and it doesn't just obey reality's laws of physics, and there are actual, provable benefits to the Ecclesiarchy's efforts and attitudes that go beyond just "control".
No, it's extremely relevant. The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium. That's why they don't care exactly how you worship the Emperor as long as you follow orders.
Manchu wrote: The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium.
Just like the purpose of the Catholic church is solely to preserve the power of the Vatican.
No Melissa, that's not even close and you are on thin ice with that kind of bs. The Ecclesiarchy is a fictional institution that as a matter of the setting itself seeks above all things to preserve the power of the Imperium. This is not a debatable matter and insulting IRL comparisons need to be left out regardless.
Manchu wrote: The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium.
Just like the purpose of the Catholic church is solely to preserve the power of the Vatican.
No Melissa, that's not even close
According to you. But your opinions aren't facts-- hell, I don't believe it either. But it remains that there are always multiple interpretations of how a person, a group of people, or an organization acts. A very sizable portion of the Ecclesiarchy honestly believes in what they're doing without regard to simply "solidifying the Imperium's control", or however one might want to put it-- and would be deeply offended by your assertions, just as you were deeply offended by me relaying the assertions my father makes about the Catholic church (mind you, he says the same thing about all religious institutions).
They are fictional people, but that does not necessarily indicate that, within the fiction, their beliefs are insincere.
It's needless to draw the comparison with the Catholic church into it. First of all they ain't the Church Militant anymore. Nor are they dogged fanatics. Infact they have except from history and iconography very little in common with the Ecclechiracy. They certainly don't call people witches anymore and it's not nice accusing them of being evil Melissia.
Melissia wrote: According to you. But your opinions aren't facts-- hell, I don't believe it either. But it remains that there are always multiple interpretations of how a person, a group of people, or an organization acts. A very sizable portion of the Ecclesiarchy honestly believes in what they're doing without regard to simply "solidifying the Imperium's control", or however one might want to put it-- and would be deeply offended by your assertions.
That is the naive belief that their superiors aren't in it for the power/control/wealth. They may be doing good, through missionary work like helping struggling worlds but it essentially comes down to "we are taking your planet, so give in and live or fight and die."
Considering that I'm arguing that the Ecclesiarchy itself isn't necessarily evil, how the flying feth are you claiming that I'm arguing the Catholic Church is evil?
I'm merely pointing out that there are multiple interpretations of the goals and purposes behind any organization. Just look at the various feminism topics. People have continually stated that "feminist are sexist against men", "feminists want women to dominate men", and other such crap time and time and time again, without any evidence to back it up-- just their opinions, their interpretations of the organization..
Melissia wrote: Considering that I'm arguing that the Ecclesiarchy itself isn't necessarily evil, how the flying feth are you claiming that I'm arguing the Catholic Church is evil?
I'm merely pointing out that there are multiple interpretations of the goals and purposes behind any organization. Just look at the various feminism topics. People have continually stated that "feminist are sexist against men", "feminists want women to dominate men", and other such crap time and time and time again, without any evidence to back it up-- just their opinions, their interpretations of the organization..
I regard it as evil burning people because they are different even if it is justified. I just think the comparison ain't valid past the point of history and iconography.
Melissia wrote: They are fictional people, but that does not necessarily indicate that, within the fiction, their beliefs are insincere.
First, I didn't say their beliefs were insincere. Check the strawman. Second, fictional people only have the beliefs their creators give them. It is well established that the Ecclesiarchy seeks to preserve the Imperial power. That's not just my opinion.
Melissia wrote: They are fictional people, but that does not necessarily indicate that, within the fiction, their beliefs are insincere.
First, I didn't say their beliefs were insincere. Check the strawman. Second, fictional people only have the beliefs their creators give them. It is well established that the Ecclesiarchy seeks to preserve the Imperial power. That's not just my opinion.
And it is well established that the Catholic Church, as with any political organization, has historically sought to preserve and expand its own power.
This is also not an opinion-- but rather, a fact.
Really, any political organization that lasts more than one generation is going to be like that.
Let's try and keep the religious hate to a minimum. Regardless of how you see the IoM or it's Ecclesiarchy, please try not to insult other members of the forum community by talking down your nose at religion in general. That sort of bigotry is not constructive or helpful and is entirely off topic.
Here's the problem. While I want real world to be 'the best possible' world (as I judge such things), I certainly don't want 40K to be that! I want it to be the worst possible world.
This is what I do not get about people like Valerian. If they had their way Imperium would be a glorious secular superpower, filled with amazing technology and ruled by wise and unerring Primarchs.
Which would utterly ruin the setting! Don't these people get the point of 40k? It is supposed to be a dystopia!
By your own admission, this is what you want. Not inherently the way it is. I tend to agree, and I personally find the dark tone of the 40k world to be its finest feature. It, above all the other things the game offers, appeals to me the most. But, all things exist in contrast to their surroundings. The IoM is a dark, grim, terrible place. But I think we are seeing that same IoM from different angles.
It seems trite and flavorless to me that the IoM should be this grey world with no good in it. It leaves nothing to the imagination and quickly looses my interest. It's for that reason that I do not take a great interest in the Dark Eldar or the Tau. The Dark Eldar (with respect to their fluff) are still sort of "toaster evil". Just like the Tau are flavorlessly "toaster good". It almost seems out of place.
In contrast, I play Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines with a great deal of passion because they are made characterful by their internal contrasts. The Imperium is a terrible place of harsh laws and unforgiving rulers... but full of courageous, noble, and even righteous individuals and characters. Just as Chaos is the opposite. it is a place of no laws, and no need of forgiveness, but is home to the most foul, and insidious characters in the game.
To me, that is dystopia. I world where good men and women are forced to make unthinkable choices... not always good ones, for the continuation of mankind.
The Ecclisiarchy does fit into that, in a very real way as part of (as stated by other posters) the "glue" that allows the Imperium to survive. Thinking of it as utterly evil is wrong not because you only see half of it... but because you only see half of it, and think that's all there is to see.
@Manchu, in regards to maintaining legions, would it be feasible to assume a spread of leadership? A checks and balances system that prevented a sole person from inheriting absolute power over said legion. I don't believe the threat of legionwide defection is as high as everyone seems to think, and with crusade-era numbers they could definitely bring the IoM back to the top.
Dark Eldars have much good in them. Think pushy ambitious families, think love for their kin and such. They ain't just boring complete monsters. No sir they are very thrilling to read about. Of course you must remember only the most squicky and debased persons get off from perverted sex. Of course they are like the dark part of the Roman society with a lot of violence and corruption.
As for the Tau, well that I leave to someone else.
Beaviz81 wrote: Dark Eldars have much good in them. Think pushy ambitious families, think love for their kin and such. They ain't just boring complete monsters. No sir they are very thrilling to read about. Of course you must remember only the most squicky and debased persons get off from perverted sex. Of course they are like the dark part of the Roman society with a lot of violence and corruption.
As for the Tau, well that I leave to someone else.
I don't want this to derail the thread so I'll be short:
I do not mean disrespect to the Tau or the Dark Eldar. They are fine factions in their own right and I am sure they appeal to many people for many reasons. I do not personally find them as engaging as the other factions, and for reasons that closely related to this thread, hence my bringing it up
Dropping the idiotic comparisons to IRL religion, it is inarguably the case that the Ecclesiarchy is not an open-minded and progressive institution. It demands absolute obedience in matters of faith from all of humanity -- save the Adeptus Mechnanicus and certain other fringe groups, like the Adeptus Astartes. The way that the Ministorum co-opts preexisting local beliefs shows this: they do not care if you bow to a tree or a stone or in a cathedral or on a mountaintop. All they care about is that you stay in line regarding the wider society of the Imperium.
The Mechanicum is no more open-minded and even more dogmatically insistent for the very reason that Tech Priests will not accept willy nilly just any old way of appeasing the machine gods. They insist that it be done their way and only by them.
I think this is why people have a bigger problem with the Ecclesiarchy than the Mechanicum. The Ecclesiarchy will not only take anyone and everyone who applies but will take you whether you want to be taken or not. The Mechanicum is exclusive. If you're not already "in" you probably never will be.
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Fester McAgue wrote: @Manchu, in regards to maintaining legions, would it be feasible to assume a spread of leadership? A checks and balances system that prevented a sole person from inheriting absolute power over said legion.
En Excelsis wrote:But, all things exist in contrast to their surroundings.
This reminds me of something I've read in a White Dwarf.
"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."
Much like Crimson, I tend to see the Ecclesiarchy in a darker light myself, but that doesn't mean that no good exists. The world being "grey" actually means that, in addition to the black, there are also spots of white to be found. The Orders Hospitaller might qualify, and undoubtedly religious worship is not only a tool that takes (demanding obedience and Ecclesiarchal tithes) but also gives (comfort, a feeling of unity, a sense of security). Countless times I've read about Missionaries, Clerics and Sisters raising morale and spirits of desperate populations facing insurrection and alien invasion. In a setting as unforgiving and merciless as the 41st millennium, "knowing" that a divine power watches over you or that death is not the end of all things is a very important gift. There may be situations in which the human mind just cannot stomach the truth, or where awareness of reality and the full truth would just make things worse. Like ... a Tyranid invasion, or a CSM raid.
Melissia wrote: So it's okay to use the term "idiotic" to refer to other peoples' posts now?
Yes, you made an insulting and idiotic argument, you are insisting on keeping it up, and you really need to drop it. If you have more questions on this PM me.
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Melissia wrote: The lore is far deeper than just face value.
Maybe. In any case, just ask yourself what a Ministorum official is sincere about? She or he sincerely wants to preserve reign of the God-Emperor and the dominance of humanity. We don't really know what the Ecclesiarchy's position is on anything else and indeed we have reason to believe that they have no fixed position on anything else.
Manchu wrote: In any case, just ask yourself what a Ministorum official is sincere about?
That depends on the official in question.
Some are not sincere at all, and we saw the effects of that in Vandire's Reign of Blood. Some are entirely sincere in their belief that spreading Emperor-worship saves the souls of humanity. Many believe that the Imperium and the Ecclesiarchy are one and the same Almost all are likely to be sincere in their belief that chaos cults are corruptions on the soul, a stain that can only be removed through fire and death.
Beaviz81 wrote: Dark Eldars have much good in them. Think pushy ambitious families, think love for their kin and such. They ain't just boring complete monsters. No sir they are very thrilling to read about. Of course you must remember only the most squicky and debased persons get off from perverted sex. Of course they are like the dark part of the Roman society with a lot of violence and corruption.
As for the Tau, well that I leave to someone else.
I don't want this to derail the thread so I'll be short:
I do not mean disrespect to the Tau or the Dark Eldar. They are fine factions in their own right and I am sure they appeal to many people for many reasons. I do not personally find them as engaging as the other factions, and for reasons that closely related to this thread, hence my bringing it up
A derailment can be accepted as long as it's tied in. You brought up valid points in my mind. And I recently had a discussion at http://www.thedarkcity.net/ but thats more the place for that.
At a separate thingy I agree with Manchu. The Ecclechiarchy is demonized because it represent oppression in a great degree. While AdMech is a mixture of MegaCorp and Church Militant they are sort of distant with kind of robotic logical techno-brains just trying to look back through the layers and re-discovering and slowly but surely inventing new things. The humans have reached their scientific potential, and that's why things takes so much time.
En Excelsis wrote:But, all things exist in contrast to their surroundings.
This reminds me of something I've read in a White Dwarf.
"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."
Much like Crimson, I tend to see the Ecclesiarchy in a darker light myself, but that doesn't mean that no good exists. The world being "grey" actually means that, in addition to the black, there are also spots of white to be found. The Orders Hospitaller might qualify, and undoubtedly religious worship is not only a tool that takes (demanding obedience and Ecclesiarchal tithes) but also gives (comfort, a feeling of unity, a sense of security). Countless times I've read about Missionaries, Clerics and Sisters raising morale and spirits of desperate populations facing insurrection and alien invasion. In a setting as unforgiving and merciless as the 41st millennium, "knowing" that a divine power watches over you or that death is not the end of all things is a very important gift. There may be situations in which the human mind just cannot stomach the truth, or where awareness of reality and the full truth would just make things worse. Like ... a Tyranid invasion, or a CSM raid.
I agree, and that to me is part of the appeal. Our words seem to differ but I think we've made the same point.
Manchu wrote: Maybe. In any case, just ask yourself what a Ministorum official is sincere about? She or he sincerely wants to preserve reign of the God-Emperor and the dominance of humanity. We don't really know what the Ecclesiarchy's position is on anything else and indeed we have reason to believe that they have no fixed position on anything else.
Normally I can back your line of reasoning Manchu but here I gotta back Mel.
The organization of the Ecclesiarchy is both more and less than the sum of its constituent parts. The organization (independent of it's members) may have been founded with the intention of maintaining a form of control over an impossibly vast empire, but that does not impose those same fundamental purpose into all the members therein. I find it hard to imagine that all members of the Ecclesiarchy are driven by a need to control or oppress mankind. I find it much more likely that they are well intentioned persons doing good deeds in the service of a far removed and less benign organized body.
The same could be said of the Ad Mech. It is unlikely that every techmarine or thechpriest is privy to all the dirty secrets of their parent organization. More likely, they are doing what they find right by servicing the machine spirits and tending to the wargear of their militant brothers, all without realizing that they may or may not be being manipulated by presumably few personas that truly control the organization
Fester McAgue wrote: @Manchu, in regards to maintaining legions, would it be feasible to assume a spread of leadership? A checks and balances system that prevented a sole person from inheriting absolute power over said legion. I don't believe the threat of legionwide defection is as high as everyone seems to think, and with crusade-era numbers they could definitely bring the IoM back to the top.
How? The overal numbers haven't changed much. The Imperium stagnates because it allowed unthinking dogma to prevail over reason ( for which the carriongod is solely responsible by giving the Mechanicus the sole responsibility over all new technology ) and not because it lacks spacemarines.
Manchu wrote: Second, can you tell me anything about the Imperial Creed that is not about control?
I just did in my last example. Let me make it again in more relatable terms.
I just purchased a Microsoft Sruface Tablet... I love the hell out it. Use it all the time, tell my friends and coworkers how great it is, and just generally like the thing.
That Tablet is a product of Microsoft, a much bigger, more powerful organization than just me, who contributed my small sum of $500 to their assets.
That does NOT make me part of "team Microsoft". I am just one person who has a small, seemingly meaningless role in their overall plans. Microsoft may see every unit sold as a step toward breaking into a new market, or competing with some other manufacturer. However I see it as a new toy or device that I can find use for in my own way. We each see the same thing very differently
Just like any Priest or Missionary can truly believe the Imperial Creed and think that it is true, just, and desirable, without the slightest interest in the vision it's creators had for it.
I think En meant he thinks great of Microsoft and such. But for me he misses the point that's not the Ecclechiarchy. He is basically describing how the average Imperial citizen feels towards the AdMech. The Ecclechicarchy demands you go to church whether you want to or not. AdMech as you said Manchu comes with special invitation.
Melissia wrote:That depends on the official in question. Some are not sincere at all, and we saw the effects of that in Vandire's Reign of Blood. Some are entirely sincere in their belief that spreading Emperor-worship saves the souls of humanity.
The funny thing is that, or at least that's how it appears, Vandire actually ended up being sincere ... once he lost his mind and started to believe what he told people. Also, Vandire actually started out as a member of the Administratum and staunch political opponent of the Ecclesiarchy.
Not saying that all "true" members of the clergy are sincere, mind you, just pointing out something interesting about that example. In general, I certainly believe that power has a corrupting influence, be it command authority over an Astartes Legion or spiritual leadership over the masses of the people. Which is why we now have the Codex Astartes and the Ordo Hereticus.
Beaviz81 wrote:The Ecclechicarchy demands you go to church whether you want to or not. AdMech as you said Manchu comes with special invitation.
This actually makes me understand the people I've criticised in an earlier post better - a little. However, I would point out that it's just a matter of birth. When you happen to be born on a world administrated by the Adeptus Terra, the Ecclesiarchy comes for you. When you happen to be born on a world administrated by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Tech-Priests come to you. Better hope you don't mind having both your arms exchanged for drills and your legs for treads.
No Lynata it requires affinity as well. The AdMech is a backward-looking organization, but they ain't without innovation. It's just that it goes slow and steady. No affinity with machines means no membership in the AdMech for you. Add Soup-Nazi-voice.
Also, what Crimson said. I'm here for the Grimdark, and I think you're really missing out if you just throw it all away due to RL convictions, Valerian!
I can't do that. I came to 40k on the Horus Heresy novels, and while I love BFG and am trying to get into the Imperial Guard, I can't get over the promise of progress the Imperium originally had that was callously thrown away by the post-Heresy Imperium.
EDIT: Let me make this clear though: I don't hate religion per se. Look at the flag guys, my country is a traditionally Catholic country and I'm a Catholic, albeit a non-practicing one. Ironic, isn't it?
I consider the Codex Astartes to be a massive mistake.
I consider Dorn and his doctrine of focused power like that of the Black Templars to have been a far better defense of the Imperium than Guilliman and his spread out but small armies.
This is a decision for wiser minds than my own. Vulkan opposes the Codex Astartes, and it is his opinion I trust the most, therefore I oppose it as well.
Admiral Valerian wrote: It also weakened the Imperium militarily. The legions guaranteed Imperial military supremacy. No offense to the Guard, but they just can't completely fill the gap the legions once filled.
You're right: the Guard is way too big to fill the gaps left by converting the legions to chapters. They're more a great curtain wall built behind the rotten palisade of the Space Marines than a patchwork repair measure.
In addition to rendering the SM less of an organized threat to the Imperium, the Codex Astartes also generally crippled them, forcing the Imperium to develop and deploy a proper military, further negating the threat rogue Marines could pose.
The Codex Astartes, therefore, can be seen as having left the Imperium stronger, despite superficially weakening it.
Beaviz81 wrote: No Lynata it requires affinity as well. The AdMech is a backward-looking organization, but they ain't without innovation. It's just that it goes slow and steady. No affinity with machines means no membership in the AdMech for you. Add Soup-Nazi-voice.
Not quite. It only means that you won't become a techpriest but you will still become a worker (yay for having no rights whatsoever). The admech is just as oppressive as the ecclesiarchy, perhaps even more. You tinker with your computer? Have fun spending the rest of your life as a servitor. You actualy dare to invent something on your own? Haha, now you are a heretek, enjoy your life as a servitor ( if you are lucky ).
I can't do that. I came to 40k on the Horus Heresy novels, and while I love BFG and am trying to get into the Imperial Guard, I can't get over the promise of progress the Imperium originally had that was callously thrown away by the post-Heresy Imperium.
Yeah. That's the fething point. It is a corrupt, crumbling empire with glorious past that is long gone. If you don't like that, play at heresy era.
And I respect Admiral Valerian's desire to have a more progressive IoM, with a higher tech stance, but unfortunately that has never been the design from GW studios for its 40k era Imperium.
One solution you can try is to merely model your own imperial forces for the table top in a more high tech manner, write your own fluff as to they hail from a bastion of progressive thought, and have resisted more of the decay that plagues the imperium.
Tabletop wise they will still be the same as the codex its from, but visually they can be much "cooler" looking.
I did not mean to be rude, I just won't get that attitude. I understand you like HH, but it already exists. There is no point bemoaning that 40K is not like 30K. Many people like 40K just fine as it is. It's like JJ Abrams trying to turn Star Trek into Star Wars*. I like both, but I want my Star Trek to feel like Star Trek and if I want to see Star Wars, I watch Star Wars then.
(* of course the worst part was that he turned it into Prequel Star Wars.)
Which legion retrieved the weapons needed to win the war from Mars when Horus' forces attacked? Which Legion held the line against the darkness against all odds refusing to give an inch when all hope seemed lost. Which Legion Held the imperial palace against overwhelming terrors from the warp? Which Legion killed the arch traitor Horus and his traitorous lackeys?
It wasn't The ultra marines they were too busy chasing shodows at the edge of the imperium, their actions and failure to respond were acts of treason, pure and simple, The blood angels failed at the final hurdle when Sanguinus was broken like a twig by the warmaster himself, The white scars were nowhere to be seen, running like cowards from the rebel forces. The emperor himself fell to Horus blade, being too weak and emotionally attached to his favoured son to do what was necessary, Rogal Dorn struck down Horus, although he would later claim it was the emperor. It was his shame, and his burden that he failed to protect his father when it mattered most. had rogal dorn faced horus, instead of sanguinus, weak weak sanguinus, the emperor would not be near death, and guillimans treasonous codex astartes would not have seen the light of day.
It was the Imperial fists who held the line, not the ultra marines, not the blood angels, not the whitescars and certainly not the dark angels. Rogal Dorn and the Imperial fists alone had the fortitude to stand and fight in the face of overwhelming odds and almost certain death and win the day.
And then, we are supposed to accede to the demands of Guilliman and break up the Legion? The legion who had held the imperial palace, the legion who had stood by the emperors side and protected him from harm? how dare they make these demands, Guilliman should have been cast down and executed like the coward he was.
It was prudence, not lack of will that forced Rogal Dorns hand. after the brutal fighting on Terra, Dorn could not risk another civil war. so it was we were forced to watch as our legion was broken up. and 10,000 years later, we, the imperial fists, the emperors chosen number but a handful, a shadow of our former glory, and the ultra marines? well i think we all see guillimans intent clear enough, he was in league with Horus all along, his 'ultra marines' now make up over half of the space marines in the imperium, fully 600,000 men, and the forces of his empire. The ultra marines alone are allowed to rule an empire, the ultra marines alone are allowed to violate the codex astartes. I spit on them
But The imperial fists are ever vigilant, and ever ready. when the appointed time comes, and guilliman emerges from his slumber and sides with the forces of darkness, we will once again rise to the challenge, and cast down the traitors, just as we have always done, just as we always will
Captain Sebastian 'Hammer' Dorn, 3rd Company, 5th chapter, Imperial fists
I really wonder why. I think it might be partly due to the losses he suffered on Istvaan V.
That seems a good reason, but then
IA: Black Templars: Dorn would not relent, and neither would Guilleman, Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders agreed with Dorn for they too did not want their Legions scattered to the corners of the galaxy, but Ferrus Mannus, Primarch of the Iron Hands and Corax of the Raven Guard backed the Ultramarines.
Corax and Ferrus (have to raise a question here for sure as he is a head) went with it. Could it possibly because their Legions had been so badly mauled that splitting the Legions would at least put them all on a level pegging so to speak. If the Legions did remain, I guess the ones that had suffered the most could have been looking over their shoulder all the time, through fear that it might be taken advantage of or that they might never recover and become obsolete or absorbed by another Legion.
I think we can dismiss the part about Ferrus, which leaves Corax. Corax is shaped by his disastrous attempt to rebuild his Legion via cloning -- specifically, his confidence in his own leadership had been badly shaken by the time Guilliman (presumably along with the other High Lords) issued the edict regarding Codex Astartes. Vulkan, so far as I know, suffered no such insecurity. His losses at Istvaan V were truly not his fault and he did not breed monsters as a means of dealing with them.
Manchu wrote: I think we can dismiss the part about Ferrus, which leaves Corax. Corax is shaped by his disastrous attempt to rebuild his Legion via cloning -- specifically, his confidence in his own leadership had been badly shaken by the time Guilliman (presumably along with the other High Lords) issued the edict regarding Codex Astartes. Vulkan, so far as I know, suffered no such insecurity. His losses at Istvaan V were truly not his fault and he did not breed monsters as a means of dealing with them.
Ok, that's good.
So Vulkan did not want to split up his Legion due to their current standing and Corax went with it because of his supposed failings, or at least that's what we can presume?
I dunno, we don't know much about Big V until his book comes out. All I'm saying is that we know he lost most of his Legion and would have been trying to rebuild when Guilliman announced dismantling the Legions -- that did not sit well with him. As you say, Corax was in the same position vis-a-vis Istavaan V but according to IA he "welcomed the decision, knowing that Guilliman's vision of the future was true." Looking at what we now know about Corax, it seems very plausible that he acknowledged Guilliman's vision because he had seen how things might possibly unfold in his own Legion. As far as we know, Vulkan never made similar mistakes and was therefore more naive.
Corax was a broken man after the Heresy. He had mortgaged the future of his Space Marines for the means of being able to stop Horus. For me it seems Guilliman bullied him into accepting the Codex Astartes.
the entire decay of the imperium is an example of why placing the power in the hands of the high lords was a terrible idea to begin with. Its possible the emperor would have done that after defeating chaos but chaos isn't defeated and turning over power to the politicians at the point guilliman did was a mistake.
Also any arguments based on what happened later would require the benefit of hindsight. And providing we didn't have that I'd still side with Dorn, because while I may not always trust his judgement I can at least trust his honesty.
And when it comes to superpowered demi gods that is more important.
So Vulkan did not want to split up his Legion due to their current standing and Corax went with it because of his supposed failings, or at least that's what we can presume?
Of course Vulkan apparently never did split his legion...
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TheDungen wrote: the entire decay of the imperium is an example of why placing the power in the hands of the high lords was a terrible idea to begin with. Its possible the emperor would have done that after defeating chaos but chaos isn't defeated and turning over power to the politicians at the point guilliman did was a mistake.
I don't know. High Lords have rules for ten thousand years without a major case of empire splitting civil war. That seems much better than what the Emperor and the Primarchs were capable of.
So Vulkan did not want to split up his Legion due to their current standing and Corax went with it because of his supposed failings, or at least that's what we can presume?
Of course Vulkan apparently never did split his legion...
quite true, they have rumoured successors but none confirmed.
Beaviz81 wrote: For me it seems Guilliman bullied him into accepting the Codex Astartes.
Evidence?
They were alone, and nobody knows what was said between them. That sounds to me like a standard bullying tactic. Of course it's my interpretation, but I don't think Guilliman was opposed to bullying and Corax was an easy target for that.
Frankenberry wrote: I don't like the idea that fear directed 'ol Robby's decision to make the codex. The Guard does a fine job of holding the line in the absence of the legions, but that's all they do. React to invasions, hold onto what they can, and in the rarer cases, push the enemy back. Just think of what an entire legion could do against something like the Maelstrom, or even the Eye. It would be possible to keep Chaos in check (weird pun), so much to the point that the Imperium could direct large portions of resources towards dealing with the Nid thread.
This is a two level argument. Firstly, you're probably right - a legion could have directly met any single threat to the Imperium and likely defeated it. To that, you'll get little argument. What if there are 20 simultaneous threats? 50? Can 9 loyalist legions handle that? Could 18? Of course not. Can't be in 2 places at once. And if you're suggesting that you can just split off companies from the main legion to deal with less problems, then you're talking about Chapters anyway. In the even that a threat is large enough, you simply bring in more chapters to meet it - like has been successfully done countless times.
"Robby's" decision to split the legions into chapters was as much a reaction to the Heresy as it was to his own intuition that that Imperium would be beset on all sides by foes. In order to meet the many, simultaneous threats, a large number of autonomous and self-contained military forces would be necessary. Chapters were the easiest way to get to that point. As you said, the guard can hold the line... perhaps elite units can even operate in offensive posture. But, for the most part, the heavy lifting needs to be done by the Astartes. In the years after the Heresy, you have 9 loyal legion, a number of which had been all but annihilated. At the least, their combat effectiveness was in the toilet. In order to ensure that those "few" forces could handle operations from one side of the galaxy to others - which, as well all know, was necessary - a division became the only logical solution.
While at this point, it may bring a glint to your eye to think about massive Astartes Legions marching out to meet Abbadon or a Tyranid incursion, the reality is that this simply wasn't an option at the time that the codex was written. The Imperium's military effectiveness had been essentially cut in half twice by the Horus Heresy. Humanity's enemies were not simply going to sit back and let us recover. The only way to maintain a hold was to have more, separate units... and ask more of each than they were truly designed to handle.
The codex wasn't just a good idea... it was the only option.
The codex wasn't just a good idea... it was the only option.
To quote a well know, and battle proven military commander, "Nicht kleckern, klotzen!" or "Don't tickle them, Smash!"
What the Heresy really showed was that no single individual could be allowed to command as large, and as well equipped force as the Legions had prior to, and during the rebellion. it put too much power in the hands of a single individual. The only fix that was needed, and proved to be one that was instituted, was the split of the military forces of the imperium into, Army, Navy, and Space Marines.
The Army cannot get around without the Navy, the Navy cannot occupy planets without the army, and for those truly tough wet yourself with fear opponents, you send in the Space marines, but the space marines, even a legion of them cannot match the navy in a space battle, or the firepower of the Army on the ground. That was the only organisational change that was required.
By splitting up the legion into 'penny packets' he robbed the imperium of its greatest offensive force (plot armour and ridiculous fluff aside) and turned the space marines into formations that arent big enough to be an offensive, or defensive force by any stretch of the imagination.
There were lots of threats facing the imperium after the battle of terra, but The ultramarines legion alone managed to contain a large number of them (admittedly by splitting up into smaller units) and this would have given the Imperium long enough to rebuild its military forces, reconstitue the remaining legions, and then totally smash flat the remaining traitor forces. instead guilliman insisted that his 'codex astartes' be instituted, deprived the imperium of its most powerful offensive force, and used his Legion, along with the threat of another civil war to get his own way. With the Ultra Marines as strong as they were, relatively unbloodied from the most vicious fighting, and the other legions decimated by the same, a second civil war would have been pretty much a foregone conclusion.
Any way you look at it, objectively, splitting the Legions into smaller autonomous units means that the imperium effectively lost its most potent offensive force, and with the small size of a chapter, you are forever relegated to fighting defensive actions, against overwhelming odds, with insufficient forces to do the job. look at the trouble the imperium has getting more than a few thousand astartes in the same place at the same time, how many marines made it to armageddon? how well did they cooperate? with their own customs, their own chains of command, differing objectives and out looks. how much more effective would it be to deploy a large, homogenous force of astartes, with a unified chain of command to a warzone? and how much more effective would that formation be? just because chapters cooperate, doesn't mean they do so effectively.
TheDungen wrote: Also any arguments based on what happened later would require the benefit of hindsight.
No, those argument prove that Guilliman had excellent foresight.
Yeah they prove it to us who know what happened later who have the benefit of hindsight. But a person making their decision at that time would not know that.
TheDungen wrote: the entire decay of the imperium is an example of why placing the power in the hands of the high lords was a terrible idea to begin with. Its possible the emperor would have done that after defeating chaos but chaos isn't defeated and turning over power to the politicians at the point guilliman did was a mistake.
I don't know. High Lords have rules for ten thousand years without a major case of empire splitting civil war. That seems much better than what the Emperor and the Primarchs were capable of.
And the only people who have ever benefited from them doing so are themselves. We are weighing the nightmare scenario of what happened against what could have happened so there are no perfect answers but we can see that things have steadily gone from bad to worse since the emperor ascended the golden throne.
its possible it was inevitable but its also possible an effect of the choices made since.
Considering exactly how bad the imperium is a place to live I'd take my chances with Dorn. extinction might actually be preferable to the imperium that Guilliman set in motion.
The codex wasn't just a good idea... it was the only option.
By splitting up the legion into 'penny packets' he robbed the imperium of its greatest offensive force (plot armour and ridiculous fluff aside) and turned the space marines into formations that arent big enough to be an offensive, or defensive force by any stretch of the imagination.
There were lots of threats facing the imperium after the battle of terra, but The ultramarines legion alone managed to contain a large number of them (admittedly by splitting up into smaller units) and this would have given the Imperium long enough to rebuild its military forces, reconstitue the remaining legions, and then totally smash flat the remaining traitor forces. instead guilliman insisted that his 'codex astartes' be instituted, deprived the imperium of its most powerful offensive force, and used his Legion, along with the threat of another civil war to get his own way. With the Ultra Marines as strong as they were, relatively unbloodied from the most vicious fighting, and the other legions decimated by the same, a second civil war would have been pretty much a foregone conclusion.
Any way you look at it, objectively, splitting the Legions into smaller autonomous units means that the imperium effectively lost its most potent offensive force, and with the small size of a chapter, you are forever relegated to fighting defensive actions, against overwhelming odds, with insufficient forces to do the job. look at the trouble the imperium has getting more than a few thousand astartes in the same place at the same time, how many marines made it to armageddon? how well did they cooperate? with their own customs, their own chains of command, differing objectives and out looks. how much more effective would it be to deploy a large, homogenous force of astartes, with a unified chain of command to a warzone? and how much more effective would that formation be? just because chapters cooperate, doesn't mean they do so effectively.
Can't disagree more.
Splitting into smaller forces (chapters) allowed the Imperium to place it's most effective fighting forces (Astartes) in many places at once. Which only became more and more necessary with each passing century. It also allowed the "best commander" - i.e. Chapter masters or 1st/2nd captains - to command each theater... rather than forcing larger legions to put some random company commander in charge of an entire theatre when the legion was invariably forced to split off companies to engage elsewhere.
Further, stating that chapters forced the Imperium into purely defensive postures is plainly wrong. There have been just as many offensive crusades as defensive activities since the division of the legions. How the chapters fight is purely based on what is happening. Are we reacting to an attack - play D. If you're the on pushing - you're on O. It's that simple. It wouldn't be any different if it were Legions.
Finally, stating that the Imperium had trouble bringing together many chapters for a single operation is misleading. Had trouble? Not even sure what that means. As for whether or not it happens when necessary... it does. The 13th Black Crusade involved 28 different chapters... plus countless other forces. The Third War for Armageddon involved 25+ chapters. So...yeah.
Splitting into smaller forces (chapters) allowed the Imperium to place it's most effective fighting forces (Astartes) in many places at once. Which only became more and more necessary with each passing century. It also allowed the "best commander" - i.e. Chapter masters or 1st/2nd captains - to command each theater... rather than forcing larger legions to put some random company commander in charge of an entire theatre when the legion was invariably forced to split off companies to engage elsewhere.
Further, stating that chapters forced the Imperium into purely defensive postures is plainly wrong. There have been just as many offensive crusades as defensive activities since the division of the legions. How the chapters fight is purely based on what is happening. Are we reacting to an attack - play D. If you're the on pushing - you're on O. It's that simple. It wouldn't be any different if it were Legions.
Finally, stating that the Imperium had trouble bringing together many chapters for a single operation is misleading. Had trouble? Not even sure what that means. As for whether or not it happens when necessary... it does. The 13th Black Crusade involved 28 different chapters... plus countless other forces. The Third War for Armageddon involved 25+ chapters. So...yeah.
I wonder how long the Tau would have survived during the Damocles gulf crusade if instead of a mere 5 companies of space marines (from dozens of chapters) and a handful of ships and imperial guard formations, an entire Legion had been deployed, i think, the Tau would be a small footnote in history.
Just because a Legion is an inherently large formation doesn't mean it cannot be split down into smaller units to perform specific tasks, and it also doesnt mean that the captain of a space marine company in a legion, would be any less capable a commander than a captain in a much smaller Chapter. if anything he would have a broader understanding, because he would have fough in battles where a lot more marines were involved.
And lets not forget the Communications benefits. A single unified command is much preferable to the mess that imperial forces must have been faced with during both of the campaigns you mentioned, and even assuming full chapter deployment, 28,000 marines (and lots of imperial guard) opposed the 13th black crusade, thats 28 different fleets, with 28 different force commanders, not even taking into account the army and navy, pity the comms officers in those campaigns and just image the casualties from friendly fire! And while 28 chapters might seem a lot, thats still only roughly 1/4 of a space marine Legion, and the legion, with a unfied fleet of strike cruisers and battle barges will have far fewer incidents of friendly fire.
Space marines were created as an offensive force, The space marine Legions were the Offensive force that made the great crusade possible, and after the horus heresy, the Astartes were defanged and turned into a shadow of their former selves. The imperial guard are there to defend humanity, not the marines, the marines are there to crush humanities enemies.
Guilliman made a very, very big mistake when he pushed the codex astartes through, spreading your strength over a wide area means you end up being weak everywhere, Concentration of force is a very simple, and very effective strategic concept, but one that Robute either never learned, or quickly forgot.Maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, and thats exactly what he intended. but intentional or not, dispersing the Marines, in penny packets throughout the imperium, plot armour aside, means they lose their offensive power, and have limited defensive strength.
Looking at the current timeline of 40k with so many of these "individual chapters" going rogue or traitor, i'd have gone with Dorn on this.
And who know's the surviving primarchs might not have gone emo and disappeared on their legions if they weren't broken up, at least the imperium would still have actual leaders instead of politicians in the current 40k universe.
I wonder how long the Tau would have survived during the Damocles gulf crusade if instead of a mere 5 companies of space marines (from dozens of chapters) and a handful of ships and imperial guard formations, an entire Legion had been deployed, i think, the Tau would be a small footnote in history.
Just because a Legion is an inherently large formation doesn't mean it cannot be split down into smaller units to perform specific tasks, and it also doesnt mean that the captain of a space marine company in a legion, would be any less capable a commander than a captain in a much smaller Chapter. if anything he would have a broader understanding, because he would have fough in battles where a lot more marines were involved.
And lets not forget the Communications benefits. A single unified command is much preferable to the mess that imperial forces must have been faced with during both of the campaigns you mentioned, and even assuming full chapter deployment, 28,000 marines (and lots of imperial guard) opposed the 13th black crusade, thats 28 different fleets, with 28 different force commanders, not even taking into account the army and navy, pity the comms officers in those campaigns and just image the casualties from friendly fire! And while 28 chapters might seem a lot, thats still only roughly 1/4 of a space marine Legion, and the legion, with a unfied fleet of strike cruisers and battle barges will have far fewer incidents of friendly fire.
Space marines were created as an offensive force, The space marine Legions were the Offensive force that made the great crusade possible, and after the horus heresy, the Astartes were defanged and turned into a shadow of their former selves. The imperial guard are there to defend humanity, not the marines, the marines are there to crush humanities enemies.
Guilliman made a very, very big mistake when he pushed the codex astartes through, spreading your strength over a wide area means you end up being weak everywhere, Concentration of force is a very simple, and very effective strategic concept, but one that Robute either never learned, or quickly forgot.Maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, and thats exactly what he intended. but intentional or not, dispersing the Marines, in penny packets throughout the imperium, plot armour aside, means they lose their offensive power, and have limited defensive strength.
Again...
If all you have is a few <10 large Legions, you:
1. Can't be everywhere at once.
2. End up splitting into smaller forces
3. Might as well make them smaller forces permanently.
As for the Tau during Damocles Gulf Crusade - it wasn't 5 companies... it was "several chapters". Even if there were legions available, do you think an entire one could have been brought to bear in one place? Of course not. You do that, you might score a win vs. the Tau, but get runover in all the places you left naked.
I know it hurts. I know you want Legions - they just sound cooler. But, from a military standpoint, it simply would not be possible to keep Legions fighting together... or even close to it.
I wonder how long the Tau would have survived during the Damocles gulf crusade if instead of a mere 5 companies of space marines (from dozens of chapters) and a handful of ships and imperial guard formations, an entire Legion had been deployed, i think, the Tau would be a small footnote in history.
Just because a Legion is an inherently large formation doesn't mean it cannot be split down into smaller units to perform specific tasks, and it also doesnt mean that the captain of a space marine company in a legion, would be any less capable a commander than a captain in a much smaller Chapter. if anything he would have a broader understanding, because he would have fough in battles where a lot more marines were involved.
And lets not forget the Communications benefits. A single unified command is much preferable to the mess that imperial forces must have been faced with during both of the campaigns you mentioned, and even assuming full chapter deployment, 28,000 marines (and lots of imperial guard) opposed the 13th black crusade, thats 28 different fleets, with 28 different force commanders, not even taking into account the army and navy, pity the comms officers in those campaigns and just image the casualties from friendly fire! And while 28 chapters might seem a lot, thats still only roughly 1/4 of a space marine Legion, and the legion, with a unfied fleet of strike cruisers and battle barges will have far fewer incidents of friendly fire.
Space marines were created as an offensive force, The space marine Legions were the Offensive force that made the great crusade possible, and after the horus heresy, the Astartes were defanged and turned into a shadow of their former selves. The imperial guard are there to defend humanity, not the marines, the marines are there to crush humanities enemies.
Guilliman made a very, very big mistake when he pushed the codex astartes through, spreading your strength over a wide area means you end up being weak everywhere, Concentration of force is a very simple, and very effective strategic concept, but one that Robute either never learned, or quickly forgot.Maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, and thats exactly what he intended. but intentional or not, dispersing the Marines, in penny packets throughout the imperium, plot armour aside, means they lose their offensive power, and have limited defensive strength.
Again...
If all you have is a few <10 large Legions, you:
1. Can't be everywhere at once.
2. End up splitting into smaller forces
3. Might as well make them smaller forces permanently.
As for the Tau during Damocles Gulf Crusade - it wasn't 5 companies... it was "several chapters". Even if there were legions available, do you think an entire one could have been brought to bear in one place? Of course not. You do that, you might score a win vs. the Tau, but get runover in all the places you left naked.
I know it hurts. I know you want Legions - they just sound cooler. But, from a military standpoint, it simply would not be possible to keep Legions fighting together... or even close to it.
He's right though. Keeping the Legions would have given the Imperium a unified and readily accessible fighting force that is still capable of splitting up to deal with minor incursions OR easily come together to fend off larger ones. United we stand, etc, etc
Edit: also the legions had no size restriction so who's to say there wouldn't be enough to deal with everything.
I wonder how long the Tau would have survived during the Damocles gulf crusade if instead of a mere 5 companies of space marines (from dozens of chapters) and a handful of ships and imperial guard formations, an entire Legion had been deployed, i think, the Tau would be a small footnote in history.
Just because a Legion is an inherently large formation doesn't mean it cannot be split down into smaller units to perform specific tasks, and it also doesnt mean that the captain of a space marine company in a legion, would be any less capable a commander than a captain in a much smaller Chapter. if anything he would have a broader understanding, because he would have fough in battles where a lot more marines were involved.
And lets not forget the Communications benefits. A single unified command is much preferable to the mess that imperial forces must have been faced with during both of the campaigns you mentioned, and even assuming full chapter deployment, 28,000 marines (and lots of imperial guard) opposed the 13th black crusade, thats 28 different fleets, with 28 different force commanders, not even taking into account the army and navy, pity the comms officers in those campaigns and just image the casualties from friendly fire! And while 28 chapters might seem a lot, thats still only roughly 1/4 of a space marine Legion, and the legion, with a unfied fleet of strike cruisers and battle barges will have far fewer incidents of friendly fire.
Space marines were created as an offensive force, The space marine Legions were the Offensive force that made the great crusade possible, and after the horus heresy, the Astartes were defanged and turned into a shadow of their former selves. The imperial guard are there to defend humanity, not the marines, the marines are there to crush humanities enemies.
Guilliman made a very, very big mistake when he pushed the codex astartes through, spreading your strength over a wide area means you end up being weak everywhere, Concentration of force is a very simple, and very effective strategic concept, but one that Robute either never learned, or quickly forgot.Maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, and thats exactly what he intended. but intentional or not, dispersing the Marines, in penny packets throughout the imperium, plot armour aside, means they lose their offensive power, and have limited defensive strength.
Again...
If all you have is a few <10 large Legions, you:
1. Can't be everywhere at once.
2. End up splitting into smaller forces
3. Might as well make them smaller forces permanently.
As for the Tau during Damocles Gulf Crusade - it wasn't 5 companies... it was "several chapters". Even if there were legions available, do you think an entire one could have been brought to bear in one place? Of course not. You do that, you might score a win vs. the Tau, but get runover in all the places you left naked.
I know it hurts. I know you want Legions - they just sound cooler. But, from a military standpoint, it simply would not be possible to keep Legions fighting together... or even close to it.
He's right though. Keeping the Legions would have a unified and readily accessible fighting force that is still capable of splitting up to deal with minor incursions OR easily come together to fend off larger ones. United we stand, etc, etc
Again... I disagree. Not that they could never come together, but that they'd never have a chance to. At the end of the day, if you ever even tried to coalesce a whole Legion, you'd abandon so much ground that your 1 big win would end up causing 1000 little losses.
If they retcon the Codex to say 4-5,000 battle vrothers per chapter, I would support that. 1000 is far too small for the way Astartes are currently written. Their being treated like shock troopers and ultra heavy infantry. How they would go about retconning more marines per chapter without messing up established stories of chapters losing large numbers of battle brothers is beyond me. 50,000 is too many to trust to one person but 1,000 is too few to get the job done. This is based on the assumption of there being roughly 1,000 chapters.
amudkipz wrote: If they retcon the Codex to say 4-5,000 battle vrothers per chapter, I would support that. 1000 is far too small for the way Astartes are currently written. Their being treated like shock troopers and ultra heavy infantry. How they would go about retconning more marines per chapter without messing up established stories of chapters losing large numbers of battle brothers is beyond me. 50,000 is too many to trust to one person but 1,000 is too few to get the job done.
That would be great. And I agree. 5000/chapter would be perfect. That's not what happened, though. And, if the question is which I prefer between 50,000-100,000+ and 1000.... I take 1000.
Could they just say the Codex recommends at least 1000 Battle Brothers but never more than 5,000? BT would still be rule breakers and the structures would be the same only with more squads per company. Any under 500 would still be considered short on numbers but not so much they're totally useless. Crimson Fist.
Remember that the chapters are generally under strength as it is, implying they're more limited by logistics concerns and the difficulty of producing new Marines than by the hard limit on their size.
The legions at their strongest come to an effective strength of less than one millionth of the Imperium's current forces (counting the AdMech and its Skitarii and Titan Legions), and post-heresy they were less than half of that. Leaving them intact would at best have left a bunch of large, insular, effectively independent states, any of which could cause serious problem if it chose to secede. At worst, it would have rendered the full development of a more materially efficient and scalable military force less important until it was too late, and the Imperium was overwhelmed.
amudkipz wrote: If they retcon the Codex to say 4-5,000 battle vrothers per chapter, I would support that. 1000 is far too small for the way Astartes are currently written. Their being treated like shock troopers and ultra heavy infantry. How they would go about retconning more marines per chapter without messing up established stories of chapters losing large numbers of battle brothers is beyond me. 50,000 is too many to trust to one person but 1,000 is too few to get the job done. This is based on the assumption of there being roughly 1,000 chapters.
I agree. Thousand is just absurdly few for the sort of feats Space Marine chapters are supposed to achieve according the fluff. Unfortunately this is a something GW will never change.
With the LEGIONS, they were the largest empire in human history until they (wait for it)... spread themselves too thin and broke the legions into smaller groups. Then the mongols came along and utterly defeated them...
Take a minute... breath... think about that... and before you rage post... think about it again.... breath....
With the LEGIONS, they were the largest empire in human history until they (wait for it)... spread themselves too thin and broke the legions into smaller groups. Then the mongols came along and utterly defeated them...
Take a minute... breath... think about that... and before you rage post... think about it again.... breath....
Actually, i would argue it was because of corruption from its leaders such as the Emperors and poor commanders.
Also no one wants there to be 9 giant armies running around, Dorns plan is simply a unified force of 9 legions insteads of 1000 chapters.
Think of it this way, it is easier to command the entire United States Army, Marines, Airforce, and Navy than it is to command an equal number of army, marines, AF, Navy from NATO and other UN forces. I support Dorn and his idea of one military force over Guilliman and his British, American, German , French, Polish, etc... force.
With the LEGIONS, they were the largest empire in human history until they (wait for it)... spread themselves too thin and broke the legions into smaller groups. Then the mongols came along and utterly defeated them...
Take a minute... breath... think about that... and before you rage post... think about it again.... breath....
Actually, i would argue it was because of corruption from its leaders such as the Emperors and poor commanders.
They conquered everyone worth conquering, stagnated, and then some jerk comes along and takes all the territory that's actually still valuable and cuts the rest loose. The valuable side survived for quite a bit longer, and if I recall correctly only fell less than a thousand years ago.
The legions wouldn't really make much difference in the current era. The Imperium has much greater force concentration methods (Titans) and millions of Guardsmen for every space marine the legions had at their peak. The Imperium has a thousand main battle tanks for every space marine. The Imperium has dozens of super-heavy tanks for every space marine. The Imperium has several Titans for every space marine. The Imperium has at least one warship capable of leveling continents for every space marine.
If the Imperium can't afford to commit more troops to a conflict than a few warhounds, a few companies of marines, and a hundred thousand guardsmen, it wouldn't be able to commit enough of a legion to mean anything either.
There are a lot of posts here indicating that the space marines make any major contribution to the defensive fights in the IoM and so they need to be spread out so they can "defend" the IoM.
This is ridiculous. The astartes are an offensive weapon like delta force or other elite strike units. The astartes cannot win any battles of attrition against anyone other than perhaps eldar who still would probably win a battle of attrition against an all astartes force. Imperial guard, imperial navy, and PDFs do the majority of the defense of the imperium with quick insertions and special assignments handled by the sisters of battle, astartes, inquisition, etc. The times that chapters end up fighting defensive battles it is often a costly trade of astartes for buying time and a huge blunder on the IoM's part.
The current strategy of the IoM is hold its position until the emperor reawakens. This may have been the true goal of the chaos gods as it would create rampant cult behavior and cult behavior tends to evoke strong fanatical emotions and responses.
As a side note does anyone know what happens to a chaos god if enough people actively disbelieve in a chaos god's existence rather than just being ignorant of it? It seems like since worship of a chaos god and emotions that correspond to it would empower it then active disbelief and opposing emotions might weaken it.
ansacs wrote: There are a lot of posts here indicating that the space marines make any major contribution to the defensive fights in the IoM and so they need to be spread out so they can "defend" the IoM.
This is ridiculous. The astartes are an offensive weapon like delta force or other elite strike units. The astartes cannot win any battles of attrition against anyone other than perhaps eldar who still would probably win a battle of attrition against an all astartes force. Imperial guard, imperial navy, and PDFs do the majority of the defense of the imperium with quick insertions and special assignments handled by the sisters of battle, astartes, inquisition, etc. The times that chapters end up fighting defensive battles it is often a costly trade of astartes for buying time and a huge blunder on the IoM's part.
The current strategy of the IoM is hold its position until the emperor reawakens. This may have been the true goal of the chaos gods as it would create rampant cult behavior and cult behavior tends to evoke strong fanatical emotions and responses.
As a side note does anyone know what happens to a chaos god if enough people actively disbelieve in a chaos god's existence rather than just being ignorant of it? It seems like since worship of a chaos god and emotions that correspond to it would empower it then active disbelief and opposing emotions might weaken it.
If IG and PDF were enough to handle the defensive needs of the Imperium, then SM wouldn't need to participate at all. Therefore, whether its legions or chapters, the SM would have to actively participate in defensive campaigns.
The SM, while certainly a cut above all other forces, are NOTHING like Delta force. They are elite formations. Shock troops. And in chapter form, they are elite expeditionary forces. Self-contained. Self-supporting. Highly mobile. Exactly what a galaxy spanning empire needs to defend all that territory... and to attack its enemies when the opportunity prevents itself. Like I've said repeatedly - even if there were still legions, they'd be operating at roughly chapter size 99% of the time because there are too many threats in too many places... all at the same time. And, as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the IG and PDFs are not capable of defending everything alone.
As for your interesting question at the end - active disbelief is not possible. 99.99999999999% of the population has no knowledge of Chaos.
If IG and PDF were enough to handle the defensive needs of the Imperium, then SM wouldn't need to participate at all. Therefore, whether its legions or chapters, the SM would have to actively participate in defensive campaigns.
The SM, while certainly a cut above all other forces, are NOTHING like Delta force. They are elite formations. Shock troops. And in chapter form, they are elite expeditionary forces. Self-contained. Self-supporting. Highly mobile. Exactly what a galaxy spanning empire needs to defend all that territory... and to attack its enemies when the opportunity prevents itself. Like I've said repeatedly - even if there were still legions, they'd be operating at roughly chapter size 99% of the time because there are too many threats in too many places... all at the same time. And, as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the IG and PDFs are not capable of defending everything alone.
The IG aren't capable of defending everything everywhere because even their massive numbers (~10 trillion guardsmen (one billion regiments of two thousand to tens of thousands), about ten times that for PDF) are occasionally too small to be fielded in sufficient strength everywhere they're needed.
Space Marines are orders of magnitude less able to perform, particularly in defensive operations. When we have Marines and Guard operating in concert, it is the Guard who carry the day, while the Marines are marginally more effective than just fielding more tanks would be. Even at Macragge, the Ultramarines were little more than a sideshow, with the battle being won by the Navy in space, and the several million PDF soldiers on the ground (who don't even get an honorable mention; the Ultramarines on the planet run away and die, the Navy smashes the hive fleet, and the remaining Ultramarines in space return to mop up the scattered, broken pockets of resistance left on Macragge; the only other military force present was a PDF, numbering several hundred times the effective strength of the entire Ultramarines chapter).
If IG and PDF were enough to handle the defensive needs of the Imperium, then SM wouldn't need to participate at all. Therefore, whether its legions or chapters, the SM would have to actively participate in defensive campaigns.
The SM, while certainly a cut above all other forces, are NOTHING like Delta force. They are elite formations. Shock troops. And in chapter form, they are elite expeditionary forces. Self-contained. Self-supporting. Highly mobile. Exactly what a galaxy spanning empire needs to defend all that territory... and to attack its enemies when the opportunity prevents itself. Like I've said repeatedly - even if there were still legions, they'd be operating at roughly chapter size 99% of the time because there are too many threats in too many places... all at the same time. And, as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the IG and PDFs are not capable of defending everything alone.
The IG aren't capable of defending everything everywhere because even their massive numbers (~10 trillion guardsmen (one billion regiments of two thousand to tens of thousands), about ten times that for PDF) are occasionally too small to be fielded in sufficient strength everywhere they're needed.
Space Marines are orders of magnitude less able to perform, particularly in defensive operations. When we have Marines and Guard operating in concert, it is the Guard who carry the day, while the Marines are marginally more effective than just fielding more tanks would be. Even at Macragge, the Ultramarines were little more than a sideshow, with the battle being won by the Navy in space, and the several million PDF soldiers on the ground (who don't even get an honorable mention; the Ultramarines on the planet run away and die, the Navy smashes the hive fleet, and the remaining Ultramarines in space return to mop up the scattered, broken pockets of resistance left on Macragge; the only other military force present was a PDF, numbering several hundred times the effective strength of the entire Ultramarines chapter).
I agree the basic troopers are just not as "awe inspiring" as the astartes so they don't get the credit but they are definitely the real muscle in large conflicts. The astartes are most definitely an offensive weapon. Can you imagine fighting a defensive campaign where you are outnumbered 1 to ~10 000? Those are the odds of space marines to orks or tyranids. Assuming you deploy 10 astartes in each location than an entire chapter could defend 100 locations on a single planet. This is an impossible defense and the astartes can be entirely ignored in the attack and conquest of well over 90% of a planet. They can only be effective if they are held in reserve and used to counter attack a center of production or leadership...which is exactly what they do if your read any of the material (BTW this is semi-parallel to delta force). Keeping them to chapter size just makes them spread out and try to fight defensive battles, where they die to little advantage.
Also why does anyone think that is would be more or less grimdark to have legions around? In fact the addition of a possible light at the end of the tunnel that fails to ever come about due to human greed, prejudice, and/or bigotry seems much more grimdark to me then unrelieved bleakness as there is context to the darkness of the setting and the people are not just doing the best they can they are failing.
If IG and PDF were enough to handle the defensive needs of the Imperium, then SM wouldn't need to participate at all. Therefore, whether its legions or chapters, the SM would have to actively participate in defensive campaigns.
The SM, while certainly a cut above all other forces, are NOTHING like Delta force. They are elite formations. Shock troops. And in chapter form, they are elite expeditionary forces. Self-contained. Self-supporting. Highly mobile. Exactly what a galaxy spanning empire needs to defend all that territory... and to attack its enemies when the opportunity prevents itself. Like I've said repeatedly - even if there were still legions, they'd be operating at roughly chapter size 99% of the time because there are too many threats in too many places... all at the same time. And, as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the IG and PDFs are not capable of defending everything alone.
The IG aren't capable of defending everything everywhere because even their massive numbers (~10 trillion guardsmen (one billion regiments of two thousand to tens of thousands), about ten times that for PDF) are occasionally too small to be fielded in sufficient strength everywhere they're needed.
Space Marines are orders of magnitude less able to perform, particularly in defensive operations. When we have Marines and Guard operating in concert, it is the Guard who carry the day, while the Marines are marginally more effective than just fielding more tanks would be. Even at Macragge, the Ultramarines were little more than a sideshow, with the battle being won by the Navy in space, and the several million PDF soldiers on the ground (who don't even get an honorable mention; the Ultramarines on the planet run away and die, the Navy smashes the hive fleet, and the remaining Ultramarines in space return to mop up the scattered, broken pockets of resistance left on Macragge; the only other military force present was a PDF, numbering several hundred times the effective strength of the entire Ultramarines chapter).
I agree the basic troopers are just not as "awe inspiring" as the astartes so they don't get the credit but they are definitely the real muscle in large conflicts. The astartes are most definitely an offensive weapon. Can you imagine fighting a defensive campaign where you are outnumbered 1 to ~10 000? Those are the odds of space marines to orks or tyranids. Assuming you deploy 10 astartes in each location than an entire chapter could defend 100 locations on a single planet. This is an impossible defense and the astartes can be entirely ignored in the attack and conquest of well over 90% of a planet. They can only be effective if they are held in reserve and used to counter attack a center of production or leadership...which is exactly what they do if your read any of the material (BTW this is semi-parallel to delta force). Keeping them to chapter size just makes them spread out and try to fight defensive battles, where they die to little advantage.
Also why does anyone think that is would be more or less grimdark to have legions around? In fact the addition of a possible light at the end of the tunnel that fails to ever come about due to human greed, prejudice, and/or bigotry seems much more grimdark to me then unrelieved bleakness as there is context to the darkness of the setting and the people are not just doing the best they can they are failing.
You don't defend that way... with SM or IG or PDF. Evenly dividing forces over a long line is WW1 tactics. No Space Marines in trenches, sugar.
Which is exactly what the codex astartes did. Spreading your most potent weapon across the galaxy has the same effect as castrating it. It lacks the oomph to really get crap done.
Had the legions remained intact I think the present 40K setting would be just as grim, but a little less dark.
This post is begining to show me that despite all the internet rage directed ad BA & SW fanboys.. IG fanboys are actually much worse.
The IG is a very important part of the Imprium to be sure, but they are sorry excuse for a SM replacement. They in no way perform the same role as SM legions/chapters. They never have and they never will.
Think of it like this. The IG (the Navy, PDF, etc) are a wall... they surround and defend the imperium against a wide range of threats. But as every dedicated enemy of the Emperor has shown, it invariably fails at it's task. Chaos WILL eventually punch a hole in the IG defences. Tyrands WILL eventually ovverun IG defences. Ork Waaaghs! WILL eventually blunder through the defences and it's the SM that always step in and plug the hole. That's their job. If the IoM were a fortress, the IG would be its physical outer wall, while the SM would be the elite forces surgically defending the areas that enemies breached.
IoM is in standby mode... holding it's line against every other race in the galaxy while rouge traders and a few ecclisiarchical mission ships periodically move beyond the borders to "expore" and expand. The IG no longer run crusades to re-conquer Imperial Space... Macharis is a historical figure in this setting. This is true in just the same way as SMs are no longer crusading to expand the Imperium. They defend it. When the BT launch a "crusade" they basically swear and oath to kill a given enemy (like a certain ork warboss and his massive Waaagh!) and hunt him down.
I mean no disrespect to the IG since they are a very colorful part of the fluff and actually quite an engaging army to play TT and collect... but they are not now nor will the ever be a replacement for the Legions Astartes. They are a patch job meant to hold the line and keep the Imperium held together until Pappa E wakes up (or doesn't).
As it concerns this argument: remember that while Legions were still in use, the Imperial Guard (note the use of the word GUARD) were still around. They still had the Navy, they still had the Titan legions, they still had the PDFs... but they ALSO had the Legions Astartes, which were the real power being mankind's dominance. It's a silly argument in the first place since there is no way to concretely say if things would be better or worse with the legions around since the writers have pointed us in neither direction. It's strictly hypothetical. But for my brand of logic, it stands to reason that if all other things remained the same, and the legions were still around, It would not really improve things. That being said, I still think that there is no way that a single person could have (at the time the codex was presented) conviced me that it was a good idea.
With the LEGIONS, they were the largest empire in human history until they (wait for it)... spread themselves too thin and broke the legions into smaller groups. Then the mongols came along and utterly defeated them...
Take a minute... breath... think about that... and before you rage post... think about it again.... breath....
Actually, i would argue it was because of corruption from its leaders such as the Emperors and poor commanders.
They conquered everyone worth conquering, stagnated, and then some jerk comes along and takes all the territory that's actually still valuable and cuts the rest loose. The valuable side survived for quite a bit longer, and if I recall correctly only fell less than a thousand years ago.
The legions wouldn't really make much difference in the current era. The Imperium has much greater force concentration methods (Titans) and millions of Guardsmen for every space marine the legions had at their peak. The Imperium has a thousand main battle tanks for every space marine. The Imperium has dozens of super-heavy tanks for every space marine. The Imperium has several Titans for every space marine. The Imperium has at least one warship capable of leveling continents for every space marine.
If the Imperium can't afford to commit more troops to a conflict than a few warhounds, a few companies of marines, and a hundred thousand guardsmen, it wouldn't be able to commit enough of a legion to mean anything either.
I think that En Excelsis is practising the art of internet sarcasm here, especialy if we consider how often the roman legions turned against their rightful emperors
En Excelsis wrote: This post is begining to show me that despite all the internet rage directed ad BA & SW fanboys.. IG fanboys are actually much worse.
The IG is a very important part of the Imprium to be sure, but they are sorry excuse for a SM replacement. They in no way perform the same role as SM legions/chapters. They never have and they never will.
Think of it like this. The IG (the Navy, PDF, etc) are a wall... they surround and defend the imperium against a wide range of threats. But as every dedicated enemy of the Emperor has shown, it invariably fails at it's task. Chaos WILL eventually punch a hole in the IG defences. Tyrands WILL eventually ovverun IG defences. Ork Waaaghs! WILL eventually blunder through the defences and it's the SM that always step in and plug the hole. That's their job. If the IoM were a fortress, the IG would be its physical outer wall, while the SM would be the elite forces surgically defending the areas that enemies breached.
IoM is in standby mode... holding it's line against every other race in the galaxy while rouge traders and a few ecclisiarchical mission ships periodically move beyond the borders to "expore" and expand. The IG no longer run crusades to re-conquer Imperial Space... Macharis is a historical figure in this setting. This is true in just the same way as SMs are no longer crusading to expand the Imperium. They defend it. When the BT launch a "crusade" they basically swear and oath to kill a given enemy (like a certain ork warboss and his massive Waaagh!) and hunt him down.
I mean no disrespect to the IG since they are a very colorful part of the fluff and actually quite an engaging army to play TT and collect... but they are not now nor will the ever be a replacement for the Legions Astartes. They are a patch job meant to hold the line and keep the Imperium held together until Pappa E wakes up (or doesn't).
As it concerns this argument: remember that while Legions were still in use, the Imperial Guard (note the use of the word GUARD) were still around. They still had the Navy, they still had the Titan legions, they still had the PDFs... but they ALSO had the Legions Astartes, which were the real power being mankind's dominance. It's a silly argument in the first place since there is no way to concretely say if things would be better or worse with the legions around since the writers have pointed us in neither direction. It's strictly hypothetical. But for my brand of logic, it stands to reason that if all other things remained the same, and the legions were still around, It would not really improve things. That being said, I still think that there is no way that a single person could have (at the time the codex was presented) conviced me that it was a good idea.
En Excelsis wrote: This post is begining to show me that despite all the internet rage directed ad BA & SW fanboys.. IG fanboys are actually much worse.
The IG is a very important part of the Imprium to be sure, but they are sorry excuse for a SM replacement. They in no way perform the same role as SM legions/chapters. They never have and they never will.
Think of it like this. The IG (the Navy, PDF, etc) are a wall... they surround and defend the imperium against a wide range of threats. But as every dedicated enemy of the Emperor has shown, it invariably fails at it's task. Chaos WILL eventually punch a hole in the IG defences. Tyrands WILL eventually ovverun IG defences. Ork Waaaghs! WILL eventually blunder through the defences and it's the SM that always step in and plug the hole. That's their job. If the IoM were a fortress, the IG would be its physical outer wall, while the SM would be the elite forces surgically defending the areas that enemies breached.
All of these, Tyranids in particular, have a much better track record against SM than they do against Guard. The average armored regiment brings more firepower to a fight than a company of marines does. Literally the only thing space marines can do better is rapid insertion into hostile territory, provided they only have to smash something that's right there, and can run away afterwards.
IoM is in standby mode... holding it's line against every other race in the galaxy while rouge traders and a few ecclisiarchical mission ships periodically move beyond the borders to "expore" and expand. The IG no longer run crusades to re-conquer Imperial Space... Macharis is a historical figure in this setting. This is true in just the same way as SMs are no longer crusading to expand the Imperium. They defend it. When the BT launch a "crusade" they basically swear and oath to kill a given enemy (like a certain ork warboss and his massive Waaagh!) and hunt him down.
Actually, they sort of do. Haven't heard of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, or even the tiny Damocles Crusade? And it's always the Guard (and Navy) doing the heavy lifting.
I mean no disrespect to the IG since they are a very colorful part of the fluff and actually quite an engaging army to play TT and collect... but they are not now nor will the ever be a replacement for the Legions Astartes. They are a patch job meant to hold the line and keep the Imperium held together until Pappa E wakes up (or doesn't).
What part of "they're roughly one million times the equivalent strength of the space marines" are you not getting? And that's just going off numbers and canonical force equivalents (one marine ~= ten guardsmen), it's not even taking into account Guard armor and artillery, which would add another multiplier on top of that, leaving us with something like 3-4 million times greater.
As it concerns this argument: remember that while Legions were still in use, the Imperial Guard (note the use of the word GUARD) were still around. They still had the Navy, they still had the Titan legions, they still had the PDFs... but they ALSO had the Legions Astartes, which were the real power being mankind's dominance. It's a silly argument in the first place since there is no way to concretely say if things would be better or worse with the legions around since the writers have pointed us in neither direction. It's strictly hypothetical. But for my brand of logic, it stands to reason that if all other things remained the same, and the legions were still around, It would not really improve things. That being said, I still think that there is no way that a single person could have (at the time the codex was presented) conviced me that it was a good idea.
The Legions made sense at that point, because the Imperium started off extremely small, and force concentration didn't just mean you hit harder, but that you needed fewer ships. The Titan legions were also much smaller and less common, being the creation of Forgeworlds that weren't initially connected with Imperial space. The Imperial Army, likewise, was a much smaller force used as a garrison/peacekeeping force in the wake of the Crusades advance.
The Codex Astartes forced the Imperial Army to be developed into the primary fighting force, leading to the Guard, being vastly more efficient and scalable, far exceeding the capabilities of even the Legions at their peak.
Think of it like this. The IG (the Navy, PDF, etc) are a wall... they surround and defend the imperium against a wide range of threats. But as every dedicated enemy of the Emperor has shown, it invariably fails at it's task. Chaos WILL eventually punch a hole in the IG defences. Tyrands WILL eventually ovverun IG defences. Ork Waaaghs! WILL eventually blunder through the defences and it's the SM that always step in and plug the hole. That's their job. If the IoM were a fortress, the IG would be its physical outer wall, while the SM would be the elite forces surgically defending the areas that enemies breached.
I agree, but more than a wall the IG is a Hammer. The Marine are the Sword. If, by some miracle, the HLoT choose to conquer a new sector/segmentum/dunno they sent the Guard. Why? 'Cause they are near limitless. Do you know why the Imperium doesn't crusade and conquer anymore? Because the Imperium is so big that in the meantime a help request arrives to Terra, the Old Farts (High Lords of Terra) decide what to do, and then send the letter back with the answer, the Guard Regiments sent on a planet/segmentum/sector could be already wiped out. So the problem of the Imperium is, basically, the sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow burocracy and the distance. Oh, and the randomness of the Warp Travel.
As it concerns this argument: remember that while Legions were still in use, the Imperial Guard (note the use of the word GUARD) were still around. They still had the Navy, they still had the Titan legions, they still had the PDFs... but they ALSO had the Legions Astartes, which were the real power being mankind's dominance. It's a silly argument in the first place since there is no way to concretely say if things would be better or worse with the legions around since the writers have pointed us in neither direction. It's strictly hypothetical. But for my brand of logic, it stands to reason that if all other things remained the same, and the legions were still around, It would not really improve things. That being said, I still think that there is no way that a single person could have (at the time the codex was presented) conviced me that it was a good idea.
The Imperial Army (at the times of the Great Crusade) was a backup, now as the Codex and the fluff say the Imperial Guard, along with the Imperial Navy, are the main force of the Imperium. You may not like it, but it's true, the Marine now are so few than they are "used" only in chirugical strikes, the Guard on the other hand andvance bit by bit, on the blood-covered ground or hold the line while waiting reinforcements.
Fanboys haven't nothing to do with this, the IG is actually the HAMMER of the Big E. for a reason. 'Cause is slow, very slow, but his impact is quite inevitable and is very, very strong.
Additionally to all the above comments. If you try to remove "cancer" (read chaos/warboss/vital resource) with a hammer you will make a big mess. The astartes can and have defeated enemies without destroying the entire battlefield, the IG just do not have the ability to do this consistently. They always make a mess.
There is no fanboy about saying the hammer brings all the force as compared to a scalpel. They just do different stuff.
ansacs wrote: Additionally to all the above comments. If you try to remove "cancer" (read chaos/warboss/vital resource) with a hammer you will make a big mess. The astartes can and have defeated enemies without destroying the entire battlefield, the IG just do not have the ability to do this consistently. They always make a mess.
There is no fanboy about saying the hammer brings all the force as compared to a scalpel. They just do different stuff.
Exactly, IG is better in something, the Marines in other things. It's not so hard.
The Codex Astartes was the best way meaning that because there are hundreds of chapters, it means that if on chapter defects it's not going to be disastrous. If there were only 20 legions, the more chance they will all eventually defect and if one legions turns to chaos, it's disastrous.
One thing I will add about the claims that multiple chapters are more flexible and responsive.
In some sense this is true, but I will give you this to consider, a Chapter rarely deploys its full strength for fear of being wiped out.
So let's say an Ork warlord picks a world to target with significant forces, an astropathic distress call gets sent which by its very nature is unreliable.
But for the sake of argument let's say a Legion detachment of 6000 and a chapter both pick up the reply simultaneously.
Legion response, this is a significant large scale threat, deploy 3000 marines to deal with it.
Chapter reponse, this is a significant large scale threat, we can only risk 750 marines. Let's hope that another chapter or 2 receive this astropathic message within a acceptable time scale.
Eetion wrote: One thing I will add about the claims that multiple chapters are more flexible and responsive.
In some sense this is true, but I will give you this to consider, a Chapter rarely deploys its full strength for fear of being wiped out.
So let's say an Ork warlord picks a world to target with significant forces, an astropathic distress call gets sent which by its very nature is unreliable.
But for the sake of argument let's say a Legion detachment of 6000 and a chapter both pick up the reply simultaneously.
Legion response, this is a significant large scale threat, deploy 3000 marines to deal with it.
Chapter reponse, this is a significant large scale threat, we can only risk 750 marines. Let's hope that another chapter or 2 receive this astropathic message within a acceptable time scale.
This is a mistake I see a lot of people making in this discussion.
They are sending 3000 marines, that's more than 4 times as many. This automatically leaves 4 times as many worlds/systems without protection. You can't defend this point on a single battle.
ansacs wrote: Additionally to all the above comments. If you try to remove "cancer" (read chaos/warboss/vital resource) with a hammer you will make a big mess. The astartes can and have defeated enemies without destroying the entire battlefield, the IG just do not have the ability to do this consistently. They always make a mess.
There is no fanboy about saying the hammer brings all the force as compared to a scalpel. They just do different stuff.
Exactly, IG is better in something, the Marines in other things. It's not so hard.
They're better in exactly one thing, which they're still not very good at due to their limited numbers and resources. They can rapidly insert semi-heavy firepower into hostile territory, which the guard can't really match. Once there, they have no staying power and heavily limited offensive capabilities; if they didn't all but land on their target, there's little chance of taking it out, and then they either run away or die, since fighting isn't an option unless they're sitting on an ammo dump.
In comparison, the Guard has its gunships as well as stormtroopers and drop regiments, who are a bit softer than marines but can be scaled up and replaced much easier than marines can be.
Space Marines are a blunt weapon whose sole strength lies in poorly imitating a sharp one. They're like a butter knife next to the Guard's spiked mace.
ansacs wrote: Additionally to all the above comments. If you try to remove "cancer" (read chaos/warboss/vital resource) with a hammer you will make a big mess. The astartes can and have defeated enemies without destroying the entire battlefield, the IG just do not have the ability to do this consistently. They always make a mess.
There is no fanboy about saying the hammer brings all the force as compared to a scalpel. They just do different stuff.
Exactly, IG is better in something, the Marines in other things. It's not so hard.
They're better in exactly one thing, which they're still not very good at due to their limited numbers and resources. They can rapidly insert semi-heavy firepower into hostile territory, which the guard can't really match. Once there, they have no staying power and heavily limited offensive capabilities; if they didn't all but land on their target, there's little chance of taking it out, and then they either run away or die, since fighting isn't an option unless they're sitting on an ammo dump.
In comparison, the Guard has its gunships as well as stormtroopers and drop regiments, who are a bit softer than marines but can be scaled up and replaced much easier than marines can be.
Space Marines are a blunt weapon whose sole strength lies in poorly imitating a sharp one. They're like a butter knife next to the Guard's spiked mace[i].
Eetion wrote: One thing I will add about the claims that multiple chapters are more flexible and responsive.
In some sense this is true, but I will give you this to consider, a Chapter rarely deploys its full strength for fear of being wiped out.
So let's say an Ork warlord picks a world to target with significant forces, an astropathic distress call gets sent which by its very nature is unreliable.
But for the sake of argument let's say a Legion detachment of 6000 and a chapter both pick up the reply simultaneously.
Legion response, this is a significant large scale threat, deploy 3000 marines to deal with it.
Chapter reponse, this is a significant large scale threat, we can only risk 750 marines. Let's hope that another chapter or 2 receive this astropathic message within a acceptable time scale.
This is a mistake I see a lot of people making in this discussion.
They are sending 3000 marines, that's more than 4 times as many. This automatically leaves 4 times as many worlds/systems without protection. You can't defend this point on a single battle.
That's what I am trying to point out. The marines do not "defend" worlds. They could not even realistically defend a large city with a single chapter forget a world. The marines counter attack the enemies the IG and IN "defend" against. This ability is lessened in efficiency by the distributed nature of the chapters as they can only send a response of up to 1000 marines in response to any threat with out adding a great deal of time due to having to gather more than one chapter.
This is exactly why the DA are always there first when the fallen are found. They have a two step process 1 receive message; 2 send whatever forces needed from the pseudo legion that is the DA and successor chapters. Everyone else needs to negotiate, get permissions, and in general bureaucratic/politic to pull 1000+ astartes into a conflict.
Realistically think about "defending" even a single planet with 1000 troops. You need ~5 minimum to a single patrol and you would need at least 2 patrols to a location. This means you could only cover 100 locations without pdf or IG and you would be a joke actually trying to hold even ~10 locations on a planet. Ten locations held on a planet is a lost planet so any "defense" done by a SM chapter is going to end in a loss or a destruction of the planet to destroy the enemy forces.
The only defense operations a SM force has any business being the main force in is securing a beach head so a larger force can drop in and fortify.
Eetion wrote: One thing I will add about the claims that multiple chapters are more flexible and responsive.
In some sense this is true, but I will give you this to consider, a Chapter rarely deploys its full strength for fear of being wiped out.
So let's say an Ork warlord picks a world to target with significant forces, an astropathic distress call gets sent which by its very nature is unreliable.
But for the sake of argument let's say a Legion detachment of 6000 and a chapter both pick up the reply simultaneously.
Legion response, this is a significant large scale threat, deploy 3000 marines to deal with it.
Chapter reponse, this is a significant large scale threat, we can only risk 750 marines. Let's hope that another chapter or 2 receive this astropathic message within a acceptable time scale.
This is a mistake I see a lot of people making in this discussion.
They are sending 3000 marines, that's more than 4 times as many. This automatically leaves 4 times as many worlds/systems without protection. You can't defend this point on a single battle.
That's what I am trying to point out. The marines do not "defend" worlds. They could not even realistically defend a large city with a single chapter forget a world. The marines counter attack the enemies the IG and IN "defend" against. This ability is lessened in efficiency by the distributed nature of the chapters as they can only send a response of up to 1000 marines in response to any threat with out adding a great deal of time due to having to gather more than one chapter.
This is exactly why the DA are always there first when the fallen are found. They have a two step process 1 receive message; 2 send whatever forces needed from the pseudo legion that is the DA and successor chapters. Everyone else needs to negotiate, get permissions, and in general bureaucratic/politic to pull 1000+ astartes into a conflict.
Realistically think about "defending" even a single planet with 1000 troops. You need ~5 minimum to a single patrol and you would need at least 2 patrols to a location. This means you could only cover 100 locations without pdf or IG and you would be a joke actually trying to hold even ~10 locations on a planet. Ten locations held on a planet is a lost planet so any "defense" done by a SM chapter is going to end in a loss or a destruction of the planet to destroy the enemy forces.
The only defense operations a SM force has any business being the main force in is securing a beach head so a larger force can drop in and fortify.
The problem is, this isn't the role they actually fill in practice. They primarily just run around, doing their own thing or just holding back and trying to build up their numbers, and only occasionally act in concert with proper military authority.
So the Guard is left to fill the role of both offense and defense, both of which it does better (because, you know, proper numbers, and proper armored assets).
It's also rather silly to keep bringing the Navy into it: there's no overlap between the Navy's role and that of the Space Marines. The marines have ships, yes, but very few, all at the lighter end of the spectrum. It's like comparing a Titan to a dreadnought: both are semi-humanoid vehicles, but one is a giant engine of war, and the other a tiny weapons platform of dubious purpose.
Oddly enough Space Marines in space actually fulfill an ideal niche-- hard as hell troops for boarding actions when you need to capture a ship instead of destroy it.
And that's what their ships are built for, basically just carriers for hteir drop pods.
The navy is there as they can help to hold off an enemy until proper mobilization of forces can occur. There is also such a thing as boarding actions (ever play space hulk?).
The astartes have one thing they can do much better that IG; Surgical strikes. The force concentration of 5 terminators is much higher than any IG option. The IG cannot do "surgical strikes" in that any such strike will take off an entire arm. They just need to many people to equal the force a SM can bring to allow them tp manage it.
Think of it this way. If you were going to attack a vital facility where you need to not destroy the entire thing (aka no blast templates) and you needed to be in and out fast which army would you say is best suited to this? Eldar...er, I mean IoM army. The SM; specifically the DWA or drop pod armies. They both get there faster (are less susceptible to air defense and early warning) and have room to maneuver once they are there. A similar IG force is both so many bodies on location that you have really occupied the facility and can no longer maneuver and has a tougher time getting there as it is much larger.
I agree that they currently do a poor job fulfilling this role and are often prone to fighting defensive battles where they are poorly suited but in part this is due to them being split into chapters where they are each put in control of their own little "fief" and try to defend that location. If they were still legions then anyone who attacked a SMHQ would have to deal with a combined arms force of IN, IA, and a SM detachment. The forces have currently been split though, so the chapters run around willynilly acting like some sort of knightly orders.
Melissia wrote: Oddly enough Space Marines in space actually fulfill an ideal niche-- hard as hell troops for boarding actions when you need to capture a ship instead of destroy it.
And that's what their ships are built for, basically just carriers for hteir drop pods.
Eh, not quite. Those Bombardment Cannons pack a nasty punch when it comes to ship-to-ship.
Dorn. assuming this is still about Dorn and Guilliman. 1000 marines are ok for planet or sub system. more than 1000 are more useful to quell local multiple subsectors (in the event of a warpstorm etc. if thought out well enough the chapter master could hold out much like the Death Guard did before they were death guard. ie ration everything including space marines. in a system cut off from IOM from a warpstorm these marines could technically hold onto imperial control amongst the locals. with under or at 1k marines that would change drastically for the worse [speculation at best])
ansacs wrote: The navy is there as they can help to hold off an enemy until proper mobilization of forces can occur. There is also such a thing as boarding actions (ever play space hulk?).
How exactly does the Navy hold anything off? Either they engage and win, they engage and dropships get past them, or they engage and lose, space battles aren't nearly so protracted as land campaigns. They're just on an entirely different scale from the Space Marines, who are deliberately crippled in space. Battle barges are fairly small ships designed to be troop and materiel carriers, not warships.
The astartes have one thing they can do much better that IG; Surgical strikes. The force concentration of 5 terminators is much higher than any IG option. The IG cannot do "surgical strikes" in that any such strike will take off an entire arm. They just need to many people to equal the force a SM can bring to allow them tp manage it.
Think of it this way. If you were going to attack a vital facility where you need to not destroy the entire thing (aka no blast templates) and you needed to be in and out fast which army would you say is best suited to this? Eldar...er, I mean IoM army. The SM; specifically the DWA or drop pod armies. They both get there faster (are less susceptible to air defense and early warning) and have room to maneuver once they are there. A similar IG force is both so many bodies on location that you have really occupied the facility and can no longer maneuver and has a tougher time getting there as it is much larger.
I agree that they currently do a poor job fulfilling this role and are often prone to fighting defensive battles where they are poorly suited but in part this is due to them being split into chapters where they are each put in control of their own little "fief" and try to defend that location. If they were still legions then anyone who attacked a SMHQ would have to deal with a combined arms force of IN, IA, and a SM detachment. The forces have currently been split though, so the chapters run around willynilly acting like some sort of knightly orders.
The problem here is: what do they do once they've taken the facility, if they even managed to? Unless there's a bunch of Guard right behind them they're not going to be able to hold it for any real length of time, considering how logistically inconvenient their weapons are, and if you can get Guard in in the first place, you could take it with Guard.
The only scenario that makes sense is applying heavy firepower to a location where orbital bombardment isn't possible (because of anti-orbital defences, or a sufficiently powerful void shield), and the facility is hardened against airstrikes (but vulnerable to storming and destruction by heavy infantry).
How are IN battles not a protracted affair? You cannot bypass even a single ship and you can fire decoy ships. I am talking the entire engagement from system entry to fighting in the ground. If nothing else the IN can launch mine clusters to make the enemy divert every few hours.
If you want to capture something in the facility? IG airstrikes and artillery are both useless then. The IG could theoretically do it but can they do it better than the SM? No, because the SM are at least 3x better per man and the first few hours of an insertion requires bringing as much force to bear as fast as possible. Not to mention the SM are highly targeted force versus the majority of the IG who honestly are just not great shots. Can you honestly say you believe the IG are better at quick insertion than astartes? Can you even honestly say you believe the IG are better man to man than a SM?
Recap:
The IG are the strongest IoM force in the fluff but the SM are much tougher man per man. Quick insertion only allows a limited number of men so you need your toughest men to go.
If were extending this to space vessels and not lust Legions and Chapters.
It was Gulliemans reforms and the codex astartes that crippled the space Marine fleets to focus primarily on planetary insertion rather than have 'dedicated warships'.
Dorn and the legions would have had no such restrictions.
Sace marine fleets in a Legion would be much more fearsome with a wider array of abilities than in the chapters.
ansacs wrote: How are IN battles not a protracted affair? You cannot bypass even a single ship and you can fire decoy ships. I am talking the entire engagement from system entry to fighting in the ground. If nothing else the IN can launch mine clusters to make the enemy divert every few hours.
It's not protracted as compared to a ground war. In every example I've seen of space-borne combat in 40k it's resolved itself quickly, on the scale of a few hours once battle is joined in earnest. Either through one side decisively winning, or through one side slipping their dropships through the line.
There's no real "holding them off to buy time", except when horribly outnumbered, and even then it's usually more just a suicide attack to weaken the superior force as much as possible.
If you want to capture something in the facility? IG airstrikes and artillery are both useless then. The IG could theoretically do it but can they do it better than the SM? No, because the SM are at least 3x better per man and the first few hours of an insertion requires bringing as much force to bear as fast as possible. Not to mention the SM are highly targeted force versus the majority of the IG who honestly are just not great shots. Can you honestly say you believe the IG are better at quick insertion than astartes? Can you even honestly say you believe the IG are better man to man than a SM?
Recap:
The IG are the strongest IoM force in the fluff but the SM are much tougher man per man. Quick insertion only allows a limited number of men so you need your toughest men to go.
I'm not contesting that, only that if marines are taking some position you want intact for yourself, the only way that can happen is if you've got a pile of guard dropping in right behind them to fortify and hold the position against enemy counterattacks.
And if you can get that many Guard in quick enough then, you could probably have managed the whole thing with them, and are much more likely to have Guard units to so deploy than Space Marines.
The Space Marines only really work as a subordinate unit to the Guard, being a limited utility force multiplier like armor or artillery. As they're independent (from both the Guard and, technically speaking, the Imperium) and rather full of themselves, they rarely fill their optimal role.
ansacs wrote: How are IN battles not a protracted affair? You cannot bypass even a single ship and you can fire decoy ships. I am talking the entire engagement from system entry to fighting in the ground. If nothing else the IN can launch mine clusters to make the enemy divert every few hours.
It's not protracted as compared to a ground war. In every example I've seen of space-borne combat in 40k it's resolved itself quickly, on the scale of a few hours once battle is joined in earnest. Either through one side decisively winning, or through one side slipping their dropships through the line.
Armageddon and Cadia would disagree with you. Getting dropships through doesn't mean the battle is over.
@Sir Pseudonymous
I would agree that to hold a position you need guard but to take the initial position and expand the position quickly before reinforcements can be brought to the fight nothing beats SM. The IG just do not have the force concentration to do it any where near as well as SM.
Another man's trash is another man's treasure. Old Gil thinks the legions are not to be trusted because they wield too much might, and so trash. Dorn knows that it's the legions as they are now that saved the still twitching Imperium, and are to be treasured, not cast to the four winds. If it int broke, don't fix it. Don't tar everyone with mistrust because Horus was a
Again this is largely due to separate leaderships. If the legions were still around then the SM would use IG like the disposable ground troops they are.
The fact that they are not used together is sad and says alot of the failings in the IoM command system. (though it is also why there are so few tyrant Badab type cases)
I'd be standing with Dorn. All legions developed their own quirks in structure. The iron hands for instance. So obsessed about self sufficiency that their company level strength equivelant forces still make an act of competing with each other to better themselves. In effect they are all separate mini chapters within a chapter.
Space wolves might as well still be an official legion with their current layout as well. Good luck making them break up their forces. Not to mention the other space marine factions others have listed. The codex astartes just makes marines predictable when taken dogmatically.
"WE STAND UNITED!!!" *Before Horus Heresy*
"WE WERE STUPID, SPLIT THE CHAPTERS AND MAKE PETTY FIGHTS FROM ONE ANOTHER!!" *Legions after*
Yeah, I think I'll have to go with Dorn on this one.
Yes, because the system of concentrated political power in the hands of immature emotional trainwrecks who were willing to betray all of humanity because they were mad at their dad worked SO well during the Horus Heresy.
Melissia wrote: Yes, because the system of concentrated political power in the hands of immature emotional trainwrecks who were willing to betray all of humanity because they were mad at their dad worked SO well during the Horus Heresy.
Melissia wrote: Yes, because the system of concentrated political power in the hands of immature emotional trainwrecks who were willing to betray all of humanity because they were mad at their dad worked SO well during the Horus Heresy.
Hey it worked great cause they removed a persecuting biggot who had a major god complex from power. You know Horus just wanted what was best for everyone, he had papa nurgle's support after all. Papa nurgle loves you and just wants what is best for everyone. How could anything he supports be bad for the people?
Themanwiththeplan wrote: It was working just fine until Lorgar had a tantrum and threw his toys out the pram and Horus got stabbed by a tainted blade.
Translation: It worked great until the people who they were relying upon to be mature, intelligent, and reasonable commanders proved to be immature, unintelligent, and unreasonable.
Granted . Though I don't know if it really would have made any difference seeing as we Inquisitors who know about Chaos and yet they fall.
or what he was doing with the web way...
Why the hell should they know?
letting entire an entire planet of criminals be birthing grounds for a space marine legion....
They were alright at the begining, they became crazy later due to Nostramo's leader incapable of handling the planet.
being all "nooo i cant kill my son till after he killed me"
HH series mary rewrite this.
playing favorites with his sons, cursing some, praising others,
Don't be stupid! Even rl parents do stuff like that. Also the Primarchs did some things that needed to be curse and praised.
Anyway this is the only comment I can make. I'm usinng internet at an internet cafe at my aunt's expense due to downloading music for her cellphone. See you on June or July, guys
Melissia wrote: Please, you didn't need the Emperor for the legions to fall apart under the weight of their leaders' incompetence.
Of the twenty primarchs, probably only three or four were mentally healthy-- and less than half were sane on some level.
What incompetence do you speak of? They were flawed creations, yes, but incompetent.. I don't think so. Also, you do not need to be sane to be a good commander.
Melissia wrote: Please, you didn't need the Emperor for the legions to fall apart under the weight of their leaders' incompetence.
Of the twenty primarchs, probably only three or four were mentally healthy-- and less than half were sane on some level.
actually, you DO need the emperor, he is the one who made the (very flawed) primarchs in the first place.
the legions did not fall under incompetent leadership form primarchs, the primarchs fell due to imcompetent leadership from the emperor,
once a primarch fell, his legion followed,
that the primarchs were flawed to begin with is the emperors fault, as is his assumption that they were immune to chaos and his assumption that warning them about chaos wouldnt help them.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: Another man's trash is another man's treasure. Old Gil thinks the legions are not to be trusted because they wield too much might, and so trash. Dorn knows that it's the legions as they are now that saved the still twitching Imperium, and are to be treasured, not cast to the four winds. If it int broke, don't fix it. Don't tar everyone with mistrust because Horus was a
Not that I'm supporting Gulli, but I think the HH was supposed to be the example that the system is broken.
I side with Dorn because, well, he played a far larger role than Gulli and thus I trust his advice more.
easysauce wrote: HH was the result of the emperors hubris, not the legions
So the ones who actually did the betrayal, massacres, murders-- the epic failures that were the primarchs, bastions of arrogance, selfishness, and self-righteousness-- aren't at fault because someone else made a few mistakes.
And these flaws wernt evident in some of the new Chapter Masters?
Gulleman may have crippled to threat to internal in fighting.... but he also crippled the Marines ability to truly throw crushing forces at an enemy.
Small strike teams although they have a place, cannot shatter enemies as easily.
How invaluable would a Legion have been in the war against Gazzy on Armageddon, against Behemouth, Kraken or Leviathan, Guarding the Eye of Terror, Patrolling the Maelstrom.
There are times when you absolutely positively need to hammer your size 15 power armoured boot up the arse of some filthy xenos or heretic, and a Chapter jsut isnt as good at it.
I stand with Dorn, minimizing the size of the Astartes Legions and forcing them into strict guidelines weakens their effectiveness. And I think we can all agree they need to be as effective as possible.
I like to call it the "Horus Option". Gather all of them on a planet and let the guard virus bomb them. They have caused at least as many problems as they've solved.
There are times when you absolutely positively need to hammer your size 15 power armoured boot up the arse of some filthy xenos or heretic, and a Chapter jsut isnt as good at it.
In fairness, the 9 Loyalist Legions didn't actually have much more (if any more) Marines than the 40K Imperium does. Sure, they could coordinate their forces a bit better but ultimately they'd still be stretched just as thin (notwithstanding any individual Legion turning traitor in its majority). I don't think the break up of the Legions had that much of an effect on the ability of the Space Marines to defend the Imperium unless there's a significant chance almost an entire Legion could have turned traitor after the Heresy, in which case things would likely be worse. Certainly they could amass their forces anyway (and on Armageddon they didn't really seem to have much of a problem in deciding on a leader).
Void__Dragon wrote:Because not revealing your plans and what you want accomplished from your second in commands is bad management?
In fairness, the Emperor told them what was wanted of them in the short term (and by short term we're talking about centuries here. We've no idea how long the human connection to the rest of the Webway was going to take). All the Primarchs needed to do (and arguably they weren't his second-in-commands, Malcador seems to fulfill that role a bit better in most matters) was unite human populations with the Imperium and destroy xenos. That's all they, bar Magnus, were required to do as far as I know. And even Magnus was needed to do that for a good while.
Really, I don't think the Primarchs needed to know about the Webway. Or, for that matter, Chaos. All they had to do was say no. Some of the treacherous ones refused to, and the others hitched onto them for reasons beyond the Emperor's control (two of the Primarchs turned traitor to a large extent because they performed genocide on their homeworld, and who knows what's up with Alpharius). As for Mortarion, he seems to have actually gotten the wrong idea about the Emperor (the whole idea about the Emperor being a tyrant when it appears he actually wanted to transfer authority to normal humans).
But with not telling the primarchs about the dangers of chaos, or warning pertarbo about the warp gate (so he would know better then to contact the big E and cause that big issue when he did)
it is bad management... If I am sending armies into unknown dangers, fine,
but when you know some of the dangers, why not tell the super soldiers that they might have to kill daemons and look out for chaos corruption.
maybe we would have had more loyalists if they knew exactly what chaos was before they encountered it?
but actively hiding knowledge of a danger and how to properly counter it, what good does that do?
easysauce wrote: But with not telling the primarchs about the dangers of chaos, or warning pertarbo about the warp gate (so he would know better then to contact the big E and cause that big issue when he did)
it is bad management... If I am sending armies into unknown dangers, fine,
but when you know some of the dangers, why not tell the super soldiers that they might have to kill daemons and look out for chaos corruption.
maybe we would have had more loyalists if they knew exactly what chaos was before they encountered it?
but actively hiding knowledge of a danger and how to properly counter it, what good does that do?
I agree here. Perhaps if Horus had known about Chaos, he would have seen what was happening. Or, perhaps, one of the other primarchs would have. In any event, hiding chaos from the general populace makes sense. Hiding it from your top military commanders... that's dumb.
easysauce wrote: But with not telling the primarchs about the dangers of chaos, or warning pertarbo about the warp gate (so he would know better then to contact the big E and cause that big issue when he did)
it is bad management... If I am sending armies into unknown dangers, fine,
but when you know some of the dangers, why not tell the super soldiers that they might have to kill daemons and look out for chaos corruption.
maybe we would have had more loyalists if they knew exactly what chaos was before they encountered it?
but actively hiding knowledge of a danger and how to properly counter it, what good does that do?
I agree here. Perhaps if Horus had known about Chaos, he would have seen what was happening. Or, perhaps, one of the other primarchs would have. In any event, hiding chaos from the general populace makes sense. Hiding it from your top military commanders... that's dumb.
I agree. At the point where Chaos was clearly aware of the Primarchs and had teleported them all across the galaxy the Big E should have sat them down and given them the chaos and the bees talk. His policy of destroying Chaos through ignorance only makes sense if Chaos Gods required recognition in order to act. But they don't.
Interested idea. Do you think with Inquisition now that bigger legions would be more manageable than chapters and could be policed so that the worry off mass betrayal was minimized considerably?
There are times when you absolutely positively need to hammer your size 15 power armoured boot up the arse of some filthy xenos or heretic, and a Chapter jsut isnt as good at it.
In fairness, the 9 Loyalist Legions didn't actually have much more (if any more) Marines than the 40K Imperium does. Sure, they could coordinate their forces a bit better but ultimately they'd still be stretched just as thin (notwithstanding any individual Legion turning traitor in its majority). I don't think the break up of the Legions had that much of an effect on the ability of the Space Marines to defend the Imperium unless there's a significant chance almost an entire Legion could have turned traitor after the Heresy, in which case things would likely be worse. Certainly they could amass their forces anyway (and on Armageddon they didn't really seem to have much of a problem in deciding on a leader).
True but its a matter of response.
To co-ordinate against a larger threat it is entirely dependent on an astropathic message being received by more than 1 chapter at the same time, and the nature of that is a uncertain at best. Astropathic messages are not reliable.
Wheras a Legion only needs to pick the message up once, and they could deploy 5, 10, 15000 marines, the legions do not need to be spread in one big smear but at strategicly vital locatiions and deploy accordingly.
The size of 40k Chapters and number is irrelevant. That's 10'000 years of growth.
Not to mention had they had Legiuons still both Dorn and Guilleman may still be allive. Dorn would have a number of Legion ships and may have not have needed to board the chaos cruiser where he died. Guiilleman may not have died to fulgrim if he had 7000 instead of just 1.
What it boils down to, is that when faced with a major threat, a Legion can deploy more troops without having to rely on the vagaries of the warp to obtain an equivalent number from a Chapter.
In the cases of conflicts such as Armageddon. A legion might be able to deploy 10000 simultaneously rather than 1000 marines here 500 there 100 there.
It truly gives them a capability to go for the throat of a serious threat.
Eetion wrote: Gulleman may have crippled to threat to internal in fighting.... but he also crippled the Marines ability to truly throw crushing forces at an enemy.
No, the Legions did that to themselves. They fethed up big time, fully half of them betrayed the Imperium, got a HUGE amount of people killed, failed to hold a metric fethton of conquered territory, and lost the privilege of trust.
Even if they had continued on as legions they would never be trusted with the same power and authority as they were during the Great Crusade, and more likely than not they'd have been marginalized instead of living on as heroes.
I think it's funny when people pretend that the Astartes are the only one's who've ever rebelled and nearly destroyed the Imperium. For every betrayal a Space Marine as has ever made toward the Imperium, a thousand regular humans have made a similar betrayal. Horus didn't use mass mind control to make thousands of Imperial Army regiments and fleets turn traitor, nor did he use mass mind control to get nearly 50% of the Mechanicum to join his cause, they did it out of their own initiative. Space Marines had nothing to do with Vandire going insane and nearly destroying the entire Imperium, nor did they have anything to do with the Sisters of Battle embarking on a mass genocidal campaign that ended the lives of billions of innocents at the behest of a mad man because they were collectively too ignorant to recognize a refractor field when they saw one. Nor did they have anything to do with the head of the Officio Assassinorium going ape-gak and slaughtering the High Lords of Terra. The list goes on. Mankind *in general* kind of sucks at the whole loyalty thing, and that's been a constant throughout all of 40K. If your criteria for "who deserves trust" is "Who's never rebelled against the Imperium", the answer is "no one".
Furthermore, the idea that "50% of the legions went rogue" is false. The Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children, Word Bearers, World Eaters and Death Guard had to purge massive numbers of their ranks on Isstvan (or earlier inthe WB's case) due to them being loyalists. So considering that most of the traitor legions were barely above half strength post-Isstvan, and considering that most of the biggest legions remained loyal, you're looking at something closer to barely a third of the astartes actually going traitor. The rest either stayed with the Emperor, or died before they could make the choice.
- - - - -
I believe that the Legions should have remained legions, perhaps not of the same size that they were pre-heresy, but certainly larger than the measily 1000. Splitting them up into tiny, impotent chapters has done nothing good for the Imperium this far, and we've seen from the Red Corsairs how pointless an idea it is anyway. The legions did not do as much damage to the Imperium as they did because "ermahgawd that's a lot of space marines in one place". They did as much damage as they did because they controlled *everything*. There was zero checks in balances between them, the Imperial Army and the Mechanicum. Thus, when Horus went traitor everything else went to hell. Post-Heresy, a legion does not need that much control, though. You can give a space marine chapter 50,000 men, but without support from the Mechanicus, the Guard and the Navy, all of which are separate but equal entities within the Imperium(well, Mechanicum not so much, but you get the idea), a legion of that size turning traitor isn't getting far.
On the other hand, a legion or two of that size could beat the gak out of Leviathan, or Gazzy, and that's exactly what the Imperium needs right now.
I think that one of the main things that many people in this thread are getting incorrect is the effectiveness of the legions and in fact the greater Imperium post-heresy.
9 of the 18 legion turned traitor, so that is fully half of the space marines gone. Then, the Raven Guard and Salamanders were all but destroyed at Istvann, leaving 7 functioning legions left. The Iron hands also lost all of their veterans and their primarch, so about 6.5 legion sized forces remaining.
The Ultramarines lost about half of their numbers to the Word Bearers and the World Eaters, making it about 6 legions left. The Fists lost the vast majority of their numbers in the siege of Terra and in the Iron Cage, the Dark Angels were relatively unscathed, but the Blood Angels took massive losses at Signus Prime and at the Siege of Terra, and they lost their primarch. There is not much info on the White Scars, but it is safe to assume that a large number of them were lost, and the wolves took some losses at Prospero, but otherwise were fine. After all of these casualties, there would have been about at most a third of the number of loyal astartes post heresy that there was pre-heresy. With all of these losses, and the huge task of cleaning up the mess that the Imperium had become, the system of using astartes as the main fighting force as the Imperium was impractical to say the least.
In addition to the massive Astartes losses, fully half of the mechanicum turned traitor, and the remaining loyal mechanicus had been devastated by the heresy. The army had lost an insane amount of men, and needed a new system for it to be succesful, and the Navy had also taken massive losses. Without reforms, the Imperium would have been destroyed.
Without the Codex Astartes, the Imperium would have been all but lost, as the Imperial Army was not used to fighting the sort of conflicts that were demanded of it. Guilliman's reforms may not have been popular, but they were necessary.
In addition, the people suggesting that if the Imperium had kept the legion system, they could start the great crusade are simply wrong. The Imperium did not have the manpower to start crusading again.
At the end of the heresy, the Imperium needed strong leadership. It was in disarray, with many primarchs almost fighting over who would take the top job. Many of the primarchs wanted to go straight back to conquering, but Guilliman stood up and imposed a sense of order.
In addition, the codex astartes was a much more stable method and is much better at preventing large betrayals.
easysauce wrote: But with not telling the primarchs about the dangers of chaos, or warning pertarbo about the warp gate (so he would know better then to contact the big E and cause that big issue when he did)
Magnus (I assume you meant him) caused that big issue because he wanted to prove himself right and the Emperor wrong. While telling him about the Webway expedition may have caused him to err on the side of caution and instead use conventional methods to message him, the problem only came about because he was willing to disobey the Emperor mainly to prove a point. Magnus' arrogance caused that situation, not the Emperor not telling him about something he didn't need to know about.
The only Primarch I think might have stayed loyal if forewarned was Fulgrim, and even then I suspect his pride was such that he wouldn't look to himself for fault.
but when you know some of the dangers, why not tell the super soldiers that they might have to kill daemons and look out for chaos corruption.
Was it necessary? They could kill Daemons regardless of knowing what exactly they are. Any Chaos corruption was very well hidden within the Legions. Giving them a few pointers probably wouldn't have helped. Although it may caused people to look at Curze and Angron a bit more suspiciously.
maybe we would have had more loyalists if they knew exactly what chaos was before they encountered it?
Maybe. Maybe they would have had less. Maybe it would have been exactly the same.
but actively hiding knowledge of a danger and how to properly counter it, what good does that do?
How do you properly counter Chaos? All the Primarchs had to do was trust the Emperor and follow him, but instead the Traitors thought they knew better. Lorgar would have embraced it regardless (and perhaps even earlier). Horus assumed he could master it.
Traejun wrote: Perhaps if Horus had known about Chaos, he would have seen what was happening. Or, perhaps, one of the other primarchs would have.
Horus was told about Chaos, to a degree at least. It just so happened that he sided with it. Even if another Primarch grew suspicious it's exceedingly unlikely that anything would have been done about it. The Emperor seems to have assumed that they would never turn against him. Why would the other Primarchs?
Shlazaor wrote:Do you think with Inquisition now that bigger legions would be more manageable than chapters and could be policed so that the worry off mass betrayal was minimized considerably?
No. The Legions would likely grow more insular. They'd reject the idea of some Inquisitor coming in and accusing their brothers of turning to Chaos. The situation would consistently require a lot of finesse lest the Legions turn against the Inquistion.
Eetion wrote: Wheras a Legion only needs to pick the message up once, and they could deploy 5, 10, 15000 marines, the legions do not need to be spread in one big smear but at strategicly vital locatiions and deploy accordingly.
That would only be the case if the Legion had 15000 Space Marines in one position doing nothing, which is incredibly unlikely.
The size of 40k Chapters and number is irrelevant. That's 10'000 years of growth.
The size is relevant. It's the High Lords of Terra who decide on the numbers of Astartes through the number of Chapters. The reasonable assumption is that the 9 remaining Legions would only have a similar number of Space Marines. Which means they'd be stretched just as thin.
Not to mention had they had Legiuons still both Dorn and Guilleman may still be allive. Dorn would have a number of Legion ships and may have not have needed to board the chaos cruiser where he died. Guiilleman may not have died to fulgrim if he had 7000 instead of just 1.
Unlikely. The Legion ships would still have been split up to fight different battles. The Legions generally gather all their forces together. Besides, Dorn and Guilliman could both call on other Chapters. Those from the Imperial Fists would still obey Dorn's orders. Guilliman apparently brought the full (or at least, considerable) might of the Ultramarines against the Night Lords and scattered their Legion. Basically, they'd still be in the same positions which led to their loss.
In the cases of conflicts such as Armageddon. A legion might be able to deploy 10000 simultaneously rather than 1000 marines here 500 there 100 there
Only if they have the equivalent of 10 Chapters nearby and not doing much. Which leaves other areas of the Imperium that much more vulnerable. Concentrating their forces leaves other areas with less defences. So either the Imperium loses siginificant amounts of territory for the sake of defending certain areas or the Legions would be spread just as thin and in the same position.
that the primarchs were flawed to begin with is the emperors fault, as is his assumption that they were immune to chaos and his assumption that warning them about chaos wouldnt help them.
They were flawed cause they are living, breathing people with personalities that grew up and were raised not by the Emp but on other worlds and by other people. Humans are also flawed if you remember?
The only Primarch I think might have stayed loyal if forewarned was Fulgrim, and even then I suspect his pride was such that he wouldn't look to himself for fault.
Fulgrim was forewarned, it might have been by a Xenos, but he did have the heads up.
The only Primarch I think might have stayed loyal if forewarned was Fulgrim, and even then I suspect his pride was such that he wouldn't look to himself for fault.
Fulgrim was forewarned, it might have been by a Xenos, but he did have the heads up.
Eldrad IIRC. Warning was useless cause Fulgrim already had the daemon sword.
Off-topic :
Stupid aunt has got me downloading more music and movies for her thus why I'm online right now.
Eldrad IIRC. Warning was useless cause Fulgrim already had the daemon sword.
How does that make a difference, he was still acting under his own steam here and didn't suspect the magical talking sword of being anything other than his conscious.
He still chose to ignore the warning, and when it came down to it, went along with Horus even though he had been warned of the treachery beforehand.
Eldrad IIRC. Warning was useless cause Fulgrim already had the daemon sword.
How does that make a difference, he was still acting under his own steam here and didn't suspect the magical talking sword of being anything other than his conscious.
He still chose to ignore the warning, and when it came down to it, went along with Horus even though he had been warned of the treachery beforehand.
The sword was influencing him plus his brotherly love thing made the warning useless which is what I said.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: So why doesn't the government tell us about all the very secret weapons projects they are working on?
We have already had this convo before and as usual you have ignored what I've said before and just go on praising Magnus.
Oh I'm sorry, are we the second in command to the president of the United States? No, we're not, therefore your analogy is worthless. I'm not saying the Emperor should have been completely straight with random Imperial citizen number 2,535,395. But his Primarchs? Yes.
I didn't mention Magnus. At all. You might want to calm down, and rethink your argument.
Without the Codex Astartes, the Imperium would have been all but lost, as the Imperial Army was not used to fighting the sort of conflicts that were demanded of it. Guilliman's reforms may not have been popular, but they were necessary.
This is a non-sequitier. How did the Codex Astartes breaking up the legions into chapters allow them to more effectively fight the threats in the galaxy?
that the primarchs were flawed to begin with is the emperors fault, as is his assumption that they were immune to chaos and his assumption that warning them about chaos wouldnt help them.
They were flawed cause they are living, breathing people with personalities that grew up and were raised not by the Emp but on other worlds and by other people. Humans are also flawed if you remember?
We may not know. But I bet the high ranking officials at the Pentagon/moD are aware.
Chapters allow the Imperium to deploy small numbers of marines almost anywhere, they assist the imperial Guard, in victory or defeat.
What they don't allow, is for ease of unification and command structure, multiple autonomous units are more unwieldy than a single disciplined (in some cases) body.
A legion will not fight those small battles. They will identify their main target, and crush it with overwhelming force. Be it a Hive fleet dominatrix, Gazzy, or whatever. They will assault and crush whatever they wish, virtually nothing in the Galaxy can withstand a coordinated Legion assault. How many chapters could do a drop like that and stand a realistic chance of winning.
By removing the Legions from play it removes that tactic from the Imperial Play book.
After all it boils down to this. A Legion can send out a detachment for a smaller fight or all at once to lay to crush a serios threat.
A chapter cannot, without help from hopefully nearby chapters that also picked up the call for aid.
I'd side with Dorn of course because if the emperor suddenly jumped off his GT all better, he would then witch slap the high lords of terra yelling "wtf did you do to my legions!"
We may not know. But I bet the high ranking officials at the Pentagon/moD are aware.
Chapters allow the Imperium to deploy small numbers of marines almost anywhere, they assist the imperial Guard, in victory or defeat.
What they don't allow, is for ease of unification and command structure, multiple autonomous units are more unwieldy than a single disciplined (in some cases) body.
A legion will not fight those small battles. They will identify their main target, and crush it with overwhelming force. Be it a Hive fleet dominatrix, Gazzy, or whatever. They will assault and crush whatever they wish, virtually nothing in the Galaxy can withstand a coordinated Legion assault. How many chapters could do a drop like that and stand a realistic chance of winning.
By removing the Legions from play it removes that tactic from the Imperial Play book.
After all it boils down to this. A Legion can send out a detachment for a smaller fight or all at once to lay to crush a serios threat.
A chapter cannot, without help from hopefully nearby chapters that also picked up the call for aid.
This, let us not forget that ANYTHING a Chapter can do, a Legion can do for one simple reason. Legions still have Chapters in them. Legions are made up of chapters that can be sent out by themselves.
You loose nothing by going with a Legion.
With a Chapter you lose unified command when fighting in a massive warzone and issues of refusal to follow orders.
chapgrimaldus wrote: I'd side with Dorn of course because if the emperor suddenly jumped off his GT all better, he would then witch slap the high lords of terra yelling "wtf did you do to my legions!"
More likely he'd be "I'm surprised any of you bastards are still alive, haven't you gotten yourselves killed yet?"
Galdos wrote: You loose nothing by going with a Legion.
You lose control over it, because inevitably the legion is given to an emotionally immature and easily manipulated idiot.
Well it should be the method of observation and oversight that needed addressing and not the structure of the Legion.
By having larger Legions you have a larger pool of individuals to consider for 'legion commander' thus a higher possibility of exceptional individuals for command.
By having chapters the imperium would have to monitor a 1000 chapter masters for corruption.
By having legions you only have to monitor 9 commanders, and ensure purity checks are monitored.
The cynic in me believes the guillemans codex and chapter afvocation was based on 1 reason.
Legions are responsible for their own recruitment, thus influence is evenly spread.
Chapters are founded and by 'coincidence' are RG gene seed is the most used by a significant margin, despite some illustrious history of other Legions.
A larger legion results in more tithed gene seed, resulting in an increased likelihood of further chapters being of that gene seed.
Given the size of the UM being the largest legion post heresy and pre codex. What he esdsentially did was cap the recruitment and recovery of the other legions, and swung the balance o influence firmly in the favor of the UM legion being the largest legion for the production of further chapter.
The question is why, I personally believe RG was maneuvering the situation to increase his own influence in essentially a sudden power vacuum following the emperors 'death' malcadors gone and Dorn was discreditted for his resistance to the Codex who was the natural 3rd choice following his heroics in holding the enemy from terra. Dorn was out consolidating the imperium assaulting Traitor forces while RG institued the changes and seeking support for them.
It is my personal belief the RG was seeking to improve his own influence, with a view to Leadership, and the codex was politically minded and not military minded.
Having read all of the Gaunts Ghosts books, I'm left wondering what we humans need Space Marines for at all!
Ive always thought the whole 40k universe underestimates normal physically fit fighting age humans.
I mean, sure I'm sentimental about Space Marines because they are awesome, but if you take that petty emotion out of the picture, aren't we better off without them?
Seriously, humans breed like rats, and 500 humans with baseball bats could kill a space marine, a tyranid warrior, a necron.
If there are up to 300 billion on single hive worlds, we must number in the trillions/quadrillions.. I'd just virus bomb all the marines to save us all the trouble if they rebel, thus depriving all the traitors of gene seed to thieve, and then force every 18 year old adult to do 2 years of harsh military training, give everyone a las-gun and tell every planet to batten down the hatches!
Melissia wrote: You lose control over it, because inevitably the legion is given to an emotionally immature and easily manipulated idiot.
You know, like the primarchs.
Name ways the loyalist Primarchs were emotionally immature and easily manipulated idiots.
Not that your point isn't nonsensical I mean. The Primarchs have not been around for thousands of years.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mattyrm wrote: Having read all of the Gaunts Ghosts books, I'm left wondering what we humans need Space Marines for at all!
Ive always thought the whole 40k universe underestimates normal physically fit fighting age humans.
I mean, sure I'm sentimental about Space Marines because they are awesome, but if you take that petty emotion out of the picture, aren't we better off without them?
Seriously, humans breed like rats, and 500 humans with baseball bats could kill a space marine, a tyranid warrior, a necron.
If there are up to 300 billion on single hive worlds, we must number in the trillions/quadrillions.. I'd just virus bomb all the marines to save us all the trouble if they rebel, thus depriving all the traitors of gene seed to thieve, and then force every 18 year old adult to do 2 years of harsh military training, give everyone a las-gun and tell every planet to batten down the hatches!
500 humans with baseball bats couldn't even penetrate the armour of those you named.
500 humans with baseball bats couldn't even penetrate the armour of those you named.
I think you underestimate the power of a mob.
And I think you underestimate 500kg of ceremite, muscle, and grit, armed with assault weaponry that detonates inside you with strength enough to toss a small car over with contemptuous ease.
But this is all besides the point.
Its not going to be 1 space marine. It will be a few dozen, dropped down in a rapid assault, to slaughter everything in their path, and then withdraw and repeat.
A case of absolute overwhelming forc decimating 500. Destroying their command structure, and assets.
Don't confuse Spacemarines with guardsmen. You can achieve with 100 marines what you might not be able to do with a regiment or 2.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: So why doesn't the government tell us about all the very secret weapons projects they are working on?
We have already had this convo before and as usual you have ignored what I've said before and just go on praising Magnus.
Oh I'm sorry, are we the second in command to the president of the United States? No, we're not, therefore your analogy is worthless. I'm not saying the Emperor should have been completely straight with random Imperial citizen number 2,535,395. But his Primarchs? Yes.
I didn't mention Magnus. At all. You might want to calm down, and rethink your argument.
But why do they need to know? They have no part to play with the project itself at the point it was being worked on. They had the GC to deal with. At the end of the day, Magnus ruined the project cause he disobeyed the Emp's orders.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Really, you guys are seeing gak from hindsight and thats just unfair.
Magnus was in a position to break it because he was a very powerful psyker. Even if the Emperor told him, there's no guarantee that his arrogance and massive ego wouldn't have caused him to break it anyway.
All of the primarchs had massive egos to some extent or other. Dorn's battle against the Iron Warriors, for example, was motivated mostly by his ego. Indeed, the primarch of the Iron Warriors set up the trap specifically because of his ego and Dorn's clashing constantly.
Melissia wrote: Magnus was in a position to break it because he was a very powerful psyker. Even if the Emperor told him, there's no guarantee that his arrogance and massive ego wouldn't have caused him to break it anyway.
IIRC, he needed help from Warp beings to do the final smashing act on the defenses.
If your post is in response to my post, the question is actually about Magnus's ignoring the Emp's orders to stop playing around with the Warp.
Melissia wrote: Magnus was in a position to break it because he was a very powerful psyker. Even if the Emperor told him, there's no guarantee that his arrogance and massive ego wouldn't have caused him to break it anyway.
IIRC, he needed help from Warp beings to do the final smashing act on the defenses.
If your post is in response to my post, the question is actually about Magnus's ignoring the Emp's orders to stop playing around with the Warp.
It was more a general sentiment, than a response specifically to your post.
All of the primarchs had massive egos to some extent or other. Dorn's battle against the Iron Warriors, for example, was motivated mostly by his ego. Indeed, the primarch of the Iron Warriors set up the trap specifically because of his ego and Dorn's clashing constantly.
They are super beings who conquered their worlds. Its no surprise that they have an ego problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hell, Mortarion's resentment are all about his ego to be frank.
All of the primarchs had massive egos to some extent or other. Dorn's battle against the Iron Warriors, for example, was motivated mostly by his ego. Indeed, the primarch of the Iron Warriors set up the trap specifically because of his ego and Dorn's clashing constantly.
They are super beings who conquered their worlds. Its no surprise that they have an ego problem.
And in the end, their own massive egotistical rampages caused them to be brought down low... to where they really were all along. Nothing more than mere mortals, fragile things that could be killed, betrayed, destroyed, and, as shown with the two lost legions, wiped out from the very memory of history itself.
As much as I mock Tau and as flawed as humanity is, at least most Tau and Human leaders can be given credit in that they rarely see themselves as essentially gods-- the ones that do rarely last long (see Vandire). Hell, even the Emperor tried to refuse that he was a god (although how successful he was at not giving in to the god complex is up to interpretation). The Emperor was an inherently flawed being, but at least he TRIED to remind himself to be humble through telling himself and others that he's not a god, while many primarchs didn't even bother to make the attempt, relishing in their own supposed superiority.
Astartes are inherently prone to failures of pride without constant reminders of their own flaws-- which is often hard to do given their biological toughness and superior equipment. But they're too useful to get rid of entirely. Thus, while they are allowed to continue to exist, they will never be trusted with Legion like power again, as a reminder of the wrongs that they committed against humanity, of the crimes motivated by pride that nearly destroyed humanity's only real hope for unity and peace.
One can claim humanity's being hypocritical here, given that there's been examples of prideful humans that nearly destroyed the Imperium-- like Vandire, as mentioned before. And that might be true, but that doesn't make what the Astartes did any better, nor does it necessarily make their punishment any more unjust.
As much as I mock Tau and as flawed as humanity is, at least most Tau and Human leaders can be given credit in that they rarely see themselves as essentially gods-- the ones that do rarely last long (see Vandire). Hell, even the Emperor tried to refuse that he was a god (although how successful he was at not giving in to the god complex is up to interpretation). The Emperor was an inherently flawed being, but at least he TRIED to remind himself to be humble through telling himself and others that he's not a god, while many primarchs didn't even bother to make the attempt, relishing in their own supposed superiority.
The Tau are perfect! Old tau fluff and Tau fans say so! Anything else is just vile retcons !!! Anything that could force the Tau to not be good and act ruthless is evil ! The Tau are perfect so thus when a Tau speaks, everyone (including orks) should bow and kiss Tau ass.
Anyway , if we go with what "The Sigillite" states plus the fact the Emp only took direct control cause of the Age of Strife, I surmise that the Emp has no real desire to rule over humanity forever and ever and would rather it rule itself.
Come to think of it, Dorn relented in the end IIRC...So codex goes no matter who I choose...
Ro-boo-teeey you are my man....Don't like the dudes who change their mind and then go emo....BT are cool though....
Btw I still don't understand correlationship between no-codex, totally yes-codex, feth-codex...
Corporal_Reznov wrote: But why do they need to know? They have no part to play with the project itself at the point it was being worked on. They had the GC to deal with. At the end of the day, Magnus ruined the project cause he disobeyed the Emp's orders.
"My sons, I am leaving the Great Crusade."
"Oh. Well, why?"
"None of your fething business, get back to work."
"........."
He comes off as a huge jackass.
But humor me... Why not tell them?
Imagine this.
"My sons, I am leaving the Great Crusade."
"Oh. Well, why?"
"I am leaving to work on a Webway Gate on Terra. It will make FTL travel in the galaxy much faster, a great deal more reliable, and most importantly: Completely safe. No more will Warp Storms destroy our ships, and end the lives of your warriors. Magnus' psychic power will maintain the gate, but for now, only I have the knowledge of the technology to make this possible, and the Great Crusade is too important to stop while I do my work on Terra. I have full confidence in your abilities, my sons."
"Hey, that is pretty important. We love you dad."
"Dude, gay. Graham McNeill is not writing this book, calm down with that gak"
There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them. Doing so made some start to distrust him. Seriously, what harm could there have been in telling them about his plans to... Make space travel better? There was no reason. Not yet, anyway. I am sure that some book will come out with the revelation that the Chaos Gods indoctrinated each Primarch to have the Emperor revealing his plans concerning the Webway Gate a trigger, one that compels them all to dogpile and defile him. But at the moment, he has no reason. You could argue my conclusion is based on "hindsight", but you would be wrong. Those that work directly under you are far more obedient when you make them privy to your plans.
Also, Magnus had a huge part to play in the project.
There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them.
Simply put, secrecy was an inherently important part of the project because he knew that the forces of Chaos, including traitors from within, would try to ruin it.
They tried (and succeeded) even without him revealing the secret, true-- but hindsight being 20/20 and all, that's not a justification for revealing such an important secret weapon against Chaos to potentially corrupted allies.
Nepotism is not a valid reason to reveal military secrets.
There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them.
Simply put, secrecy was an inherently important part of the project because he knew that the forces of Chaos, including traitors from within, would try to ruin it.
When he said "no reason", the unspoken qualifier was "good". If the Primarchs were all apparently so untrustworthy that he couldn't in good conscious let them in on the secret of the Webway, trusting them with the might of the entire Imperium's collective military with zero supervision or checks and balances is equally ridiculous.
- - - - -
The majority of the traitor Primarch's falls had nothing to do with ego or some sense of hubris, trying to portray them as such is disingenuous.
Horus- Fell due to a mixture of immense egotism balanced by incredibly insecurity.
Magnus- Fell because he got fethed by Tzeentch. His initial disobedience of the Nikea edict was certainly the result of his massive hubris, but even then, he had zero intention of turning against the Imperium until he'd lost everything he had at Prospero.
Fulgrim- Possessed by a daemonic sword trololo, almost certainly a matter of hubris.
Lorgar: Fell due to his unrelenting desire for truth. Considers himself a mere pawn for the Chaos gods, his fall had absolutely nothing to do with egotism, quite frankly, Lorgar has always been one of the most humble characters in 40K, even as a villain.
Perturabo: Fell because he was resentful of no one ever acknowledging him or his legion, joined Horus for no reason other than because he felt that Horus was the only person in the Galaxy who genuinely forgave him for razing his home-world. Had nothing to do with egotism.
Mortarion: Fell because he has an obsessive hatred for tyrants. He felt that the Emperor was just one more tyrant, and so joined Horus in the belief that he would be a better ruler. Incredibly stupid, but has nothing to do with egotism.
Alpharius/Omegon: Joined Horus because they were led to believe that killing humanity was the only to defeat Chaos and save the Galaxy. Obviously, this absolutely has nothing to do with egotism or vanity or anything else.
Angron: Joined Horus because he's insane.
Curze: Joined Horus because he's insane.
So yeah, out of nine betrayals, we have two, maybe three if you count Magnus, who fell due to hubris, egotism or megalomaniac tendencies. The rest fell due to rather tragic circumstances (a couple, such as Mortarion's lulzy fall withstanding).
As for Dorn, the Iron Cage had nothing to do with egotism. Dorn sent his men into the Iron Cage knowing full well that they were going to get screwed, he never had any delusions that they were walking out of that the victors, so no. It had nothing to do with egotism and everything to do with Dorn basically being an emotional wreck and a psychopath by that point.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: But why do they need to know? They have no part to play with the project itself at the point it was being worked on. They had the GC to deal with. At the end of the day, Magnus ruined the project cause he disobeyed the Emp's orders.
"My sons, I am leaving the Great Crusade."
"Oh. Well, why?"
"None of your fething business, get back to work."
"........."
He comes off as a huge jackass.
He didn't say it like that.
But humor me... Why not tell them?
Imagine this.
"My sons, I am leaving the Great Crusade."
"Oh. Well, why?"
"I am leaving to work on a Webway Gate on Terra. It will make FTL travel in the galaxy much faster, a great deal more reliable, and most importantly: Completely safe. No more will Warp Storms destroy our ships, and end the lives of your warriors. Magnus' psychic power will maintain the gate, but for now, only I have the knowledge of the technology to make this possible, and the Great Crusade is too important to stop while I do my work on Terra. I have full confidence in your abilities, my sons."
"Hey, that is pretty important. We love you dad."
"Dude, gay. Graham McNeill is not writing this book, calm down with that gak"
There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them. Doing so made some start to distrust him. Seriously, what harm could there have been in telling them about his plans to... Make space travel better? There was no reason. Not yet, anyway. I am sure that some book will come out with the revelation that the Chaos Gods indoctrinated each Primarch to have the Emperor revealing his plans concerning the Webway Gate a trigger, one that compels them all to dogpile and defile him.
Only Horus, IIRC, can be said to be hurt by the Emp's leaving. Angron already hated the Emp, Kurze is psycho, Mortarion has lot of resentment that has him see Emp as a tyrant.
But at the moment, he has no reason. You could argue my conclusion is based on "hindsight", but you would be wrong. Those that work directly under you are far more obedient when you make them privy to your plans.
Then why is there need to know info that is restricted from even people who deal with it and only known by certain people?
Also, Magnus had a huge part to play in the project.
When the project was completed. Before then, he had no part to play.
There is no reason for the Emperor to have not told them.
Simply put, secrecy was an inherently important part of the project because he knew that the forces of Chaos, including traitors from within, would try to ruin it.
When he said "no reason", the unspoken qualifier was "good". If the Primarchs were all apparently so untrustworthy that he couldn't in good conscious let them in on the secret of the Webway, trusting them with the might of the entire Imperium's collective military with zero supervision or checks and balances is equally ridiculous.
How so? Who says its untrustworthyness and more of wanting to protect the Webway project from interference from anyone?
Even if they were trustworthy, that's still no reason for him to go yapping to them about his sensitive, secret project.
He had no good reason TO tell them. They didn't need to know-- you realize that there was a war going on, right? In war, not all commanders know every single secret that their country has.
But he did. When asked why he was leaving, he refused to tell them and told them to worry about the Great Crusade.
Only Horus, IIRC, can be said to be hurt by the Emp's leaving. Angron already hated the Emp, Kurze is psycho, Mortarion has lot of resentment that has him see Emp as a tyrant.
Angron and Curze were indeed not salvageable at that point, though in the case of Angron, it required the Emperor doing more dumbshit to make his betrayal possible, but we'll get into that at another time. And in the case of Curze, it is mostly Fulgrim being two-faced and Dorn being a frothing psychopath that pushed him to betray, though in his case, it might indeed have always been inevitable. As for Mortarion, that wasn't the only reason. Mortarion, at the end of the day, felt more loyal to Horus, than he did the Emperor. Horus' betrayal made Mortarion's possible. Oh, and Emperor leaving further cemented in Angron's mind that he was a coward, who relied on others to shed the blood he was not willing to.
What of Fulgrim? The Emperor leaving them did indeed play a part in his betrayal, as did admittedly a talking sword, lol. And like before, it was Horus who had to convince him, before that he did not consider it, even with the talking sword.
Magnus? Wasn't really hurt by daddy leaving, but telling him of the project he was integral to would have been a big help towards saving the Webway in future events.
Perturabo, eh, I haven't read Angel Exterminatus, but prior to that he betrayed the Imperium because he was a sinister sociopath who sort of hated everyone. Though, like Mortarion, Horus' betrayal did make Perturabo's possible.
Alpharius? Clearly Alpharius is the least intelligent Primarch, to the extent that he should have been put down. Who the feth trusts xenos? Lol, what a dumbass.
As for Lorgar, Lorgar picked up on daddy's secretive, untrustworthy nature before anyone else. But he was already a traitor by the time of daddy leaving the Great Crusade.
So even if Horus was the most affected by daddy leaving without telling why (Though I'd argue the Emperor not telling Magnus eventually proved to be the most dire mistake), since so many of the traitors required Horus to make their betrayals possible, it still contributed to the Heresy.
Then why is there need to know info that is restricted from even people who deal with it and only known by certain people?
Because other than the Emperor and maybe Malcador, the Primarchs are the highest-ranking, and most important people in the Imperium.
Why is it restricted though? Stop dancing around my question. Why shouldn't the Emperor have told them?
When the project was completed. Before then, he had no part to play.
Read above.
BlaxicanX wrote: How so? Who says its untrustworthyness and more of wanting to protect the Webway project from interference from anyone?
The Primarchs were lightyears away.
How would they interfere with the project? Only Magnus could manage that. By blowing a hole in it, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Simply put, secrecy was an inherently important part of the project because he knew that the forces of Chaos, including traitors from within, would try to ruin it.
They tried (and succeeded) even without him revealing the secret, true-- but hindsight being 20/20 and all, that's not a justification for revealing such an important secret weapon against Chaos to potentially corrupted allies.
Nepotism is not a valid reason to reveal military secrets.
So what you're saying is that trusting potential traitors with the most powerful military force in the galaxy is fine, but trusting them with the knowledge that the Emperor was trying to improve space travel would be too risky?
All of the primarchs had massive egos to some extent or other. Dorn's battle against the Iron Warriors, for example, was motivated mostly by his ego. Indeed, the primarch of the Iron Warriors set up the trap specifically because of his ego and Dorn's clashing constantly.
They are super beings who conquered their worlds. Its no surprise that they have an ego problem.
And in the end, their own massive egotistical rampages caused them to be brought down low... to where they really were all along. Nothing more than mere mortals, fragile things that could be killed, betrayed, destroyed, and, as shown with the two lost legions, wiped out from the very memory of history itself.
As much as I mock Tau and as flawed as humanity is, at least most Tau and Human leaders can be given credit in that they rarely see themselves as essentially gods-- the ones that do rarely last long (see Vandire). Hell, even the Emperor tried to refuse that he was a god (although how successful he was at not giving in to the god complex is up to interpretation). The Emperor was an inherently flawed being, but at least he TRIED to remind himself to be humble through telling himself and others that he's not a god, while many primarchs didn't even bother to make the attempt, relishing in their own supposed superiority.
Astartes are inherently prone to failures of pride without constant reminders of their own flaws-- which is often hard to do given their biological toughness and superior equipment. But they're too useful to get rid of entirely. Thus, while they are allowed to continue to exist, they will never be trusted with Legion like power again, as a reminder of the wrongs that they committed against humanity, of the crimes motivated by pride that nearly destroyed humanity's only real hope for unity and peace.
One can claim humanity's being hypocritical here, given that there's been examples of prideful humans that nearly destroyed the Imperium-- like Vandire, as mentioned before. And that might be true, but that doesn't make what the Astartes did any better, nor does it necessarily make their punishment any more unjust.
I think Gulliman was pretty humble. After reading know no fear, I found him to be immensely polite and likeable for a god like warrior. Anyone who claims to loathe him just seems to be acting like one of those too cool for school contrarian types. You know, like people that love Sonic Youth but say that the Beatles suck!
chapgrimaldus wrote: Closest thing they had to sororitas were an army of female blanks, can't for the life of me remember what they were called
Sisters of Silence. Either they were wiped out during the Horus Heresy, were disbanded absorbed into the Inquisition or the Culexus Temple, or are just keeping a low profile post-Heresy.
I think Gulliman was pretty humble. After reading know no fear, I found him to be immensely polite and likeable for a god like warrior. Anyone who claims to loathe him just seems to be acting like one of those too cool for school contrarian types. You know, like people that love Sonic Youth but say that the Beatles suck!
He comes off well in that book oh ya.
The problem is that is in other stories that present him differently. I think it is the short story "Rules of Engagement" that talks about how he plans to overthrow (okay extreme word but it is close enough) the Imperium after the HH and he will fight and kill any of the loyal Primarchs like Vulkan who stand in his way of power and his Codex.
However he did have his men training on how to defeat Salemanders with the knowledge that after the HH his brothers may resist the idea of a Codex.
He even had a name chosen for what he would rename the Imperium if he needed to use force
He prepped his men for the fights that would most likely follow in the near future. Since he did not know whom of the other legions he could trust, he decided to train his men in tactics against most of them I think.
There wasn’t really any indication that he wanted to get read of all the loyal legions. Not that I could tell at least.
He was preparing for the war after the Heresy. One of his men asked why he was doing it and ... okay I just looked it up.
One of his men asked about it and he told his men that his men had to be prepared to be traitors.
"I have a plan, yes, amd it is a dangerous one...when that time comes you will be called traitors...I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium" Rules of Engagment found in the book "Age of Darkness"
Galdos wrote: He was preparing for the war after the Heresy. One of his men asked why he was doing it and ... okay I just looked it up.
One of his men asked about it and he told his men that his men had to be prepared to be traitors.
"I have a plan, yes, amd it is a dangerous one...when that time comes you will be called traitors...I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium" Rules of Engagment found in the book "Age of Darkness"
So were in the story does it say again he want to kill the salamanders? :3
I too have also read Rules of Engagement and I don’t see were in the book he says they might have to fight other marines because of the codex.
quite true, they have rumoured successors but none confirmed.
Don't be stupid! Even rl parents do stuff like that. Also the Primarchs did some things that needed to be curse and praised.
!!! Anything that could force the Tau to not be good and act ruthless is evil