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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:14:35
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
Norway
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Am I the only one who think some people are really harsh on the Eccleschiarchy for no good reason other than religion is evil?
I mean come-on without them the IOM wouldn't exist. Even the loveable chars I know you like are extremely fanatical, they are just put in a good light.
The God-Emperor is the guiding light of hope in that dark galaxy and you are nagging at the guys responsible for holding the shattered domain of his together.
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If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:18:08
Subject: Choose Your Side
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[MOD]
Solahma
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The only thing that I can think of off the top of my head is the perfection of voidship lances according to one of the BFG books. But that happened some time after the Great Crusade, IIRC. Automatically Appended Next Post: Beaviz81 wrote:Am I the only one who think some people are really harsh on the Eccleschiarchy for no good reason other than religion is evil?
No, others have posted ITT about feeling the same way.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 19:18:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:21:37
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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Beaviz81 wrote:Am I the only one who think some people are really harsh on the Eccleschiarchy for no good reason other than religion, except that of the Machine God because that one is totally cool, is evil?
Fixed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:25:38
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Manchu wrote: Beaviz81 wrote:Am I the only one who think some people are really harsh on the Eccleschiarchy for no good reason other than religion is evil?
No, others have posted ITT about feeling the same way.
I certainly agree.
Even from a purely rational standpoint and ignoring any religious desires, the Imperial Cult serves a real, and valuable purpose to the Imperium, in keeping the average citizen loyal and suppressing the excesses of Chaos cults, who by their very nature desire to destabilize all societies in which they exist.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:25:44
Subject: Choose Your Side
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Maybe the Mechanicum doesn't bother people as much because they're so exclusive. The Ecclesiarchy insist you believe; the Mechanicum won't even tell you what they believe.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:26:23
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Unless you're born on a Mechanicum world. The AdMech is just as dogmatic as the Imperial Church, if not more so.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 19:26:54
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:27:03
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Giggling Nurgling
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Manchu wrote:Let's just say a Legion comprises 100,000 SM. If 1/3 were to remain loyal, you'd still have 67,000 traitors. So one traitor Legion, just numerically, would consist of about 67 Chapters. Plus it's unified command structure and culture would make it more effective than 67 traitor chapters struggling to cooperate.
And I highly doubt that many would go rogue under a chaptermaster-esque figure. Primarchs were akin to fathers to their legions. Its understandable that many went awol.
Also, the AdMech was more progressive with the tech they recovered than its current iteration of "that's some holy crap, leave it be until we run out of parts!" They are still crazy, but in a better way in my eyes. What are some positive, progressive feats of The Ecclesiarchy?
And I agree, i'm here for grimdark, but it is also reasonable to discuss the "what could have beens" of the setting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:29:05
Subject: Choose Your Side
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Sure, I meant generally. Say you send a Tech Priest and a Ministorum official out to some newly discovered planet. The Ministorum official will set about to converting the population to the Imperial Creed. The Tech Priest would not teach anyone about the Omnissiah or the ways of the machine spirits and might even kill anyone who blasphemously pried into that knowledge.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:31:06
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Manchu wrote:Sure, I meant generally. Say you send a Tech Priest and a Ministorum official out to some newly discovered planet. The Ministorum official will set about to converting the population to the Imperial Creed. The Tech Priest would not teach anyone about the Omnissiah or the ways of the machine spirits and might even kill anyone who blasphemously pried into that knowledge.
You forgot about pointing at proper inventions and calling them technosorcery/heresy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:31:26
Subject: Choose Your Side
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[MOD]
Solahma
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TBH, so do chapter masters. Chapter masters are incredibly revered in most cases. The best examples are Calgar and Dante. We just don't know as much about the Chapter Masters as the Primarchs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:34:56
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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The Ecclesiarchy demands very few things. Be a human, worship the Emperor, do not worship Chaos or Xenos, and pay your taxes.
As such, it is comprised of innumerable sects and sub-sects-- it is actually a very accepting and open religious organization. There are countless religious belief sets within the Ecclesiarchy, and indeed, the Ecclesiarchy does its best to make sure any new human cultures are integrated in to the Imperium as seamlessly as possible. Oftentimes, the Ecclesiarchy's Missionarius Galaxia works tirelessly over generations to ensure that a world is ready to be integrated in to the Imperium with minimal bloodshed or disruption-- and while trying to change their culture as subtly as possible, resulting in huge varieties of cultures, with huge varieties of religious practices, all being under the same banner.
The Ecclesiarchy is actually quite progressive in that sense.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:37:07
Subject: Choose Your Side
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Let's be honest: any openness in the Ecclesiarchy is really just a cynical matter of control. They let you keep some of your beliefs up to the point where those beliefs would be seditious.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:37:27
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Manchu wrote:Let's be honest: any openness in the Ecclesiarchy is really just a cynical matter of control.
The same argument has been made about religions in the real world. Regardless of the purported reasons of the Ecclesiarchy for this attitude, it IS the prevailing attitude in the church.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/11 19:38:21
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:38:08
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Have to agree with Mel here. There's novels with worlds essentialy stuck in medieval times still worshipping the sun. The Ecclesiarchy just convinced them the sun was the Emperor and that was that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:47:10
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Giggling Nurgling
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Manchu wrote:TBH, so do chapter masters. Chapter masters are incredibly revered in most cases. The best examples are Calgar and Dante. We just don't know as much about the Chapter Masters as the Primarchs.
I always assumed they were more akin to older, venerated siblings but still fallible and could be openly opposed in some cases, e.g the Space Wolves do that moot hearing or what have you, I can't exactly remember specifics but a captain more or less told The Great Wolf he was a thickheaded moron in battle of the fang.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:49:53
Subject: Choose Your Side
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Melissia wrote:The same argument has been made about religions in the real world.
The difference is, we know that is the purpose of the Ecclesiarchy in 40k. Automatically Appended Next Post: Fester McAgue wrote:I can't exactly remember specifics but a captain more or less told The Great Wolf he was a thickheaded moron in battle of the fang.
Uhh, sure, you're talking about SW in that instance. You won't catch a BA saying anything like that to Dante. Automatically Appended Next Post: Soladrin wrote:The Ecclesiarchy just convinced them the sun was the Emperor and that was that.
Right so then you must see that the Ecclesiarchy is not doing anything for their benefit. They're content to worship the sun. It hasn't caused them any trouble before. The Ecclesiarchy does not ask much -- just complete obedience.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/11 19:52:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:52:25
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Manchu wrote: Melissia wrote:The same argument has been made about religions in the real world.
The difference is, we know that is the purpose of the Ecclesiarchy in 40k.
And many people purport to know the purpose of churches IRL-- I've heard people argue time and again that the largest reason for the continued existence of churches, especially the Catholic church, is a desire for control over others. My point is that the reasons behind their actions aren't entirely relevant, when we can examine the effects of their actions over hte course of 10,000 years. 40k isn't reality, and it doesn't just obey reality's laws of physics, and there are actual, provable benefits to the Ecclesiarchy's efforts and attitudes that go beyond just "control".
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/11 19:54:01
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:53:29
Subject: Choose Your Side
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[MOD]
Solahma
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No, it's extremely relevant. The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium. That's why they don't care exactly how you worship the Emperor as long as you follow orders.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:54:46
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Manchu wrote:The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium.
Just like the purpose of the Catholic church is solely to preserve the power of the Vatican.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:56:50
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Melissia wrote: Manchu wrote:The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium.
Just like the purpose of the Catholic church is solely to preserve the power of the Vatican.
You forgot about the money, though I guess power=money etc.. Though with all the recent victims asking of money that doesn't seem to be going so well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 19:59:07
Subject: Choose Your Side
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Melissia wrote: Manchu wrote:The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium.
Just like the purpose of the Catholic church is solely to preserve the power of the Vatican.
No Melissa, that's not even close and you are on thin ice with that kind of bs. The Ecclesiarchy is a fictional institution that as a matter of the setting itself seeks above all things to preserve the power of the Imperium. This is not a debatable matter and insulting IRL comparisons need to be left out regardless.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:02:19
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
Norway
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Soladrin wrote: Melissia wrote: Manchu wrote:The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium.
Just like the purpose of the Catholic church is solely to preserve the power of the Vatican.
You forgot about the money, though I guess power=money etc.. Though with all the recent victims asking of money that doesn't seem to be going so well.
Money is more the Mechanium's cup of tea.
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If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:04:17
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Manchu wrote: Melissia wrote: Manchu wrote:The purpose of the Ecclesiarchy is to preserve the power of the Imperium.
Just like the purpose of the Catholic church is solely to preserve the power of the Vatican.
No Melissa, that's not even close
According to you. But your opinions aren't facts-- hell, I don't believe it either. But it remains that there are always multiple interpretations of how a person, a group of people, or an organization acts. A very sizable portion of the Ecclesiarchy honestly believes in what they're doing without regard to simply "solidifying the Imperium's control", or however one might want to put it-- and would be deeply offended by your assertions, just as you were deeply offended by me relaying the assertions my father makes about the Catholic church (mind you, he says the same thing about all religious institutions). They are fictional people, but that does not necessarily indicate that, within the fiction, their beliefs are insincere.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/11 20:05:58
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:09:37
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I already like your father.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:10:57
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
Norway
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It's needless to draw the comparison with the Catholic church into it. First of all they ain't the Church Militant anymore. Nor are they dogged fanatics. Infact they have except from history and iconography very little in common with the Ecclechiracy. They certainly don't call people witches anymore and it's not nice accusing them of being evil Melissia.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 20:11:18
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:12:09
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Don't think we need to accuse them of evil anymore these days...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:24:53
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Giggling Nurgling
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Melissia wrote: According to you. But your opinions aren't facts-- hell, I don't believe it either. But it remains that there are always multiple interpretations of how a person, a group of people, or an organization acts. A very sizable portion of the Ecclesiarchy honestly believes in what they're doing without regard to simply "solidifying the Imperium's control", or however one might want to put it-- and would be deeply offended by your assertions.
That is the naive belief that their superiors aren't in it for the power/control/wealth. They may be doing good, through missionary work like helping struggling worlds but it essentially comes down to "we are taking your planet, so give in and live or fight and die."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:26:51
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Considering that I'm arguing that the Ecclesiarchy itself isn't necessarily evil, how the flying feth are you claiming that I'm arguing the Catholic Church is evil?
I'm merely pointing out that there are multiple interpretations of the goals and purposes behind any organization. Just look at the various feminism topics. People have continually stated that "feminist are sexist against men", "feminists want women to dominate men", and other such crap time and time and time again, without any evidence to back it up-- just their opinions, their interpretations of the organization..
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:27:15
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Mhm, the annoying thing with missionaries, they are often doing it for themselves to get a better standing with whatever deity they pray to.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/04/11 20:30:49
Subject: Choose Your Side
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
Norway
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Melissia wrote:Considering that I'm arguing that the Ecclesiarchy itself isn't necessarily evil, how the flying feth are you claiming that I'm arguing the Catholic Church is evil?
I'm merely pointing out that there are multiple interpretations of the goals and purposes behind any organization. Just look at the various feminism topics. People have continually stated that "feminist are sexist against men", "feminists want women to dominate men", and other such crap time and time and time again, without any evidence to back it up-- just their opinions, their interpretations of the organization..
I regard it as evil burning people because they are different even if it is justified. I just think the comparison ain't valid past the point of history and iconography.
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If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing. |
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