Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Melissia wrote:
They are fictional people, but that does not necessarily indicate that, within the fiction, their beliefs are insincere.

First, I didn't say their beliefs were insincere. Check the strawman. Second, fictional people only have the beliefs their creators give them. It is well established that the Ecclesiarchy seeks to preserve the Imperial power. That's not just my opinion.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They are fictional people, but that does not necessarily indicate that, within the fiction, their beliefs are insincere.

First, I didn't say their beliefs were insincere. Check the strawman. Second, fictional people only have the beliefs their creators give them. It is well established that the Ecclesiarchy seeks to preserve the Imperial power. That's not just my opinion.

And it is well established that the Catholic Church, as with any political organization, has historically sought to preserve and expand its own power.

This is also not an opinion-- but rather, a fact.

Really, any political organization that lasts more than one generation is going to be like that.

Let's try and keep the religious hate to a minimum. Regardless of how you see the IoM or it's Ecclesiarchy, please try not to insult other members of the forum community by talking down your nose at religion in general. That sort of bigotry is not constructive or helpful and is entirely off topic.

 Crimson wrote:


Here's the problem. While I want real world to be 'the best possible' world (as I judge such things), I certainly don't want 40K to be that! I want it to be the worst possible world.

This is what I do not get about people like Valerian. If they had their way Imperium would be a glorious secular superpower, filled with amazing technology and ruled by wise and unerring Primarchs.
Which would utterly ruin the setting! Don't these people get the point of 40k? It is supposed to be a dystopia!

By your own admission, this is what you want. Not inherently the way it is. I tend to agree, and I personally find the dark tone of the 40k world to be its finest feature. It, above all the other things the game offers, appeals to me the most. But, all things exist in contrast to their surroundings. The IoM is a dark, grim, terrible place. But I think we are seeing that same IoM from different angles.

It seems trite and flavorless to me that the IoM should be this grey world with no good in it. It leaves nothing to the imagination and quickly looses my interest. It's for that reason that I do not take a great interest in the Dark Eldar or the Tau. The Dark Eldar (with respect to their fluff) are still sort of "toaster evil". Just like the Tau are flavorlessly "toaster good". It almost seems out of place.

In contrast, I play Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines with a great deal of passion because they are made characterful by their internal contrasts. The Imperium is a terrible place of harsh laws and unforgiving rulers... but full of courageous, noble, and even righteous individuals and characters. Just as Chaos is the opposite. it is a place of no laws, and no need of forgiveness, but is home to the most foul, and insidious characters in the game.

To me, that is dystopia. I world where good men and women are forced to make unthinkable choices... not always good ones, for the continuation of mankind.

The Ecclisiarchy does fit into that, in a very real way as part of (as stated by other posters) the "glue" that allows the Imperium to survive. Thinking of it as utterly evil is wrong not because you only see half of it... but because you only see half of it, and think that's all there is to see.

@Manchu, in regards to maintaining legions, would it be feasible to assume a spread of leadership? A checks and balances system that prevented a sole person from inheriting absolute power over said legion. I don't believe the threat of legionwide defection is as high as everyone seems to think, and with crusade-era numbers they could definitely bring the IoM back to the top.

Dark Eldars have much good in them. Think pushy ambitious families, think love for their kin and such. They ain't just boring complete monsters. No sir they are very thrilling to read about. Of course you must remember only the most squicky and debased persons get off from perverted sex. Of course they are like the dark part of the Roman society with a lot of violence and corruption.

As for the Tau, well that I leave to someone else.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Dark Eldars have much good in them. Think pushy ambitious families, think love for their kin and such. They ain't just boring complete monsters. No sir they are very thrilling to read about. Of course you must remember only the most squicky and debased persons get off from perverted sex. Of course they are like the dark part of the Roman society with a lot of violence and corruption.

As for the Tau, well that I leave to someone else.

I don't want this to derail the thread so I'll be short:

I do not mean disrespect to the Tau or the Dark Eldar. They are fine factions in their own right and I am sure they appeal to many people for many reasons. I do not personally find them as engaging as the other factions, and for reasons that closely related to this thread, hence my bringing it up

Dropping the idiotic comparisons to IRL religion, it is inarguably the case that the Ecclesiarchy is not an open-minded and progressive institution. It demands absolute obedience in matters of faith from all of humanity -- save the Adeptus Mechnanicus and certain other fringe groups, like the Adeptus Astartes. The way that the Ministorum co-opts preexisting local beliefs shows this: they do not care if you bow to a tree or a stone or in a cathedral or on a mountaintop. All they care about is that you stay in line regarding the wider society of the Imperium.

The Mechanicum is no more open-minded and even more dogmatically insistent for the very reason that Tech Priests will not accept willy nilly just any old way of appeasing the machine gods. They insist that it be done their way and only by them.

I think this is why people have a bigger problem with the Ecclesiarchy than the Mechanicum. The Ecclesiarchy will not only take anyone and everyone who applies but will take you whether you want to be taken or not. The Mechanicum is exclusive. If you're not already "in" you probably never will be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fester McAgue wrote:
@Manchu, in regards to maintaining legions, would it be feasible to assume a spread of leadership? A checks and balances system that prevented a sole person from inheriting absolute power over said legion.

You are essentially describing Codex Astartes.

En Excelsis wrote:But, all things exist in contrast to their surroundings.

This reminds me of something I've read in a White Dwarf.

"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."

Much like Crimson, I tend to see the Ecclesiarchy in a darker light myself, but that doesn't mean that no good exists. The world being "grey" actually means that, in addition to the black, there are also spots of white to be found. The Orders Hospitaller might qualify, and undoubtedly religious worship is not only a tool that takes (demanding obedience and Ecclesiarchal tithes) but also gives (comfort, a feeling of unity, a sense of security). Countless times I've read about Missionaries, Clerics and Sisters raising morale and spirits of desperate populations facing insurrection and alien invasion. In a setting as unforgiving and merciless as the 41st millennium, "knowing" that a divine power watches over you or that death is not the end of all things is a very important gift. There may be situations in which the human mind just cannot stomach the truth, or where awareness of reality and the full truth would just make things worse. Like ... a Tyranid invasion, or a CSM raid.

 Manchu wrote:
Dropping the idiotic comparisons to IRL religion

So it's okay to use the term "idiotic" to refer to other peoples' posts now?

 Manchu wrote:
, it is inarguably the case that the Ecclesiarchy is not an open-minded and progressive institution.

Sure. I only spoke of its progressive nature in one specific aspect of the organization.

The lore is far deeper than just face value.

 Melissia wrote:
So it's okay to use the term "idiotic" to refer to other peoples' posts now?

Yes, you made an insulting and idiotic argument, you are insisting on keeping it up, and you really need to drop it. If you have more questions on this PM me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
The lore is far deeper than just face value.

Maybe. In any case, just ask yourself what a Ministorum official is sincere about? She or he sincerely wants to preserve reign of the God-Emperor and the dominance of humanity. We don't really know what the Ecclesiarchy's position is on anything else and indeed we have reason to believe that they have no fixed position on anything else.

 Manchu wrote:
In any case, just ask yourself what a Ministorum official is sincere about?

That depends on the official in question.

Some are not sincere at all, and we saw the effects of that in Vandire's Reign of Blood. Some are entirely sincere in their belief that spreading Emperor-worship saves the souls of humanity. Many believe that the Imperium and the Ecclesiarchy are one and the same Almost all are likely to be sincere in their belief that chaos cults are corruptions on the soul, a stain that can only be removed through fire and death.

 En Excelsis wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Dark Eldars have much good in them. Think pushy ambitious families, think love for their kin and such. They ain't just boring complete monsters. No sir they are very thrilling to read about. Of course you must remember only the most squicky and debased persons get off from perverted sex. Of course they are like the dark part of the Roman society with a lot of violence and corruption.

As for the Tau, well that I leave to someone else.

I don't want this to derail the thread so I'll be short:

I do not mean disrespect to the Tau or the Dark Eldar. They are fine factions in their own right and I am sure they appeal to many people for many reasons. I do not personally find them as engaging as the other factions, and for reasons that closely related to this thread, hence my bringing it up

A derailment can be accepted as long as it's tied in. You brought up valid points in my mind. And I recently had a discussion at http://www.thedarkcity.net/ but thats more the place for that.

At a separate thingy I agree with Manchu. The Ecclechiarchy is demonized because it represent oppression in a great degree. While AdMech is a mixture of MegaCorp and Church Militant they are sort of distant with kind of robotic logical techno-brains just trying to look back through the layers and re-discovering and slowly but surely inventing new things. The humans have reached their scientific potential, and that's why things takes so much time.

 Lynata wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:But, all things exist in contrast to their surroundings.

This reminds me of something I've read in a White Dwarf.

"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."

Much like Crimson, I tend to see the Ecclesiarchy in a darker light myself, but that doesn't mean that no good exists. The world being "grey" actually means that, in addition to the black, there are also spots of white to be found. The Orders Hospitaller might qualify, and undoubtedly religious worship is not only a tool that takes (demanding obedience and Ecclesiarchal tithes) but also gives (comfort, a feeling of unity, a sense of security). Countless times I've read about Missionaries, Clerics and Sisters raising morale and spirits of desperate populations facing insurrection and alien invasion. In a setting as unforgiving and merciless as the 41st millennium, "knowing" that a divine power watches over you or that death is not the end of all things is a very important gift. There may be situations in which the human mind just cannot stomach the truth, or where awareness of reality and the full truth would just make things worse. Like ... a Tyranid invasion, or a CSM raid.

I agree, and that to me is part of the appeal. Our words seem to differ but I think we've made the same point.

 Manchu wrote:
Yes, you made an insulting and idiotic argument, you are insisting on keeping it up, and you really need to drop it.

It is great to see that moderators here are polite and impartial...

You brought RL references to this thread with your jab at Dawkins.

I will gladly debate merits, or lack thereof, of religion on the Off-Topic forum if you want to though.

 Manchu wrote:
Maybe. In any case, just ask yourself what a Ministorum official is sincere about? She or he sincerely wants to preserve reign of the God-Emperor and the dominance of humanity. We don't really know what the Ecclesiarchy's position is on anything else and indeed we have reason to believe that they have no fixed position on anything else.

Normally I can back your line of reasoning Manchu but here I gotta back Mel.

The organization of the Ecclesiarchy is both more and less than the sum of its constituent parts. The organization (independent of it's members) may have been founded with the intention of maintaining a form of control over an impossibly vast empire, but that does not impose those same fundamental purpose into all the members therein. I find it hard to imagine that all members of the Ecclesiarchy are driven by a need to control or oppress mankind. I find it much more likely that they are well intentioned persons doing good deeds in the service of a far removed and less benign organized body.

The same could be said of the Ad Mech. It is unlikely that every techmarine or thechpriest is privy to all the dirty secrets of their parent organization. More likely, they are doing what they find right by servicing the machine spirits and tending to the wargear of their militant brothers, all without realizing that they may or may not be being manipulated by presumably few personas that truly control the organization

Fester McAgue wrote:
@Manchu, in regards to maintaining legions, would it be feasible to assume a spread of leadership? A checks and balances system that prevented a sole person from inheriting absolute power over said legion. I don't believe the threat of legionwide defection is as high as everyone seems to think, and with crusade-era numbers they could definitely bring the IoM back to the top.

How? The overal numbers haven't changed much. The Imperium stagnates because it allowed unthinking dogma to prevail over reason ( for which the carriongod is solely responsible by giving the Mechanicus the sole responsibility over all new technology ) and not because it lacks spacemarines.

 En Excelsis wrote:
I find it hard to imagine that all members of the Ecclesiarchy are driven by a need to control or oppress mankind.

First off, let's drop the word oppress. But we can keep control. Second, can you tell me anything about the Imperial Creed that is not about control?

 Manchu wrote:
Second, can you tell me anything about the Imperial Creed that is not about control?

I just did in my last example. Let me make it again in more relatable terms.

I just purchased a Microsoft Sruface Tablet... I love the hell out it. Use it all the time, tell my friends and coworkers how great it is, and just generally like the thing.

That Tablet is a product of Microsoft, a much bigger, more powerful organization than just me, who contributed my small sum of $500 to their assets.

That does NOT make me part of "team Microsoft". I am just one person who has a small, seemingly meaningless role in their overall plans. Microsoft may see every unit sold as a step toward breaking into a new market, or competing with some other manufacturer. However I see it as a new toy or device that I can find use for in my own way. We each see the same thing very differently

Just like any Priest or Missionary can truly believe the Imperial Creed and think that it is true, just, and desirable, without the slightest interest in the vision it's creators had for it.

 En Excelsis wrote:
can truly believe the Imperial Creed and think that it is true, just, and desirable

Okay, and to my point, what exactly is the Imperial Creed again?

I think En meant he thinks great of Microsoft and such. But for me he misses the point that's not the Ecclechiarchy. He is basically describing how the average Imperial citizen feels towards the AdMech. The Ecclechicarchy demands you go to church whether you want to or not. AdMech as you said Manchu comes with special invitation.

As far as I can tell, there are only three tenants common to all expressions of the Imperial Creed

(1) The Emperor's divinity demands worshipful obedience

(2) Ruling the galaxy is humanity's right

(3) Anything and anyone who disagrees or interferes must die

As you can probably tell, these three beliefs are all about control.

Melissia wrote:That depends on the official in question. Some are not sincere at all, and we saw the effects of that in Vandire's Reign of Blood. Some are entirely sincere in their belief that spreading Emperor-worship saves the souls of humanity.

The funny thing is that, or at least that's how it appears, Vandire actually ended up being sincere ... once he lost his mind and started to believe what he told people. Also, Vandire actually started out as a member of the Administratum and staunch political opponent of the Ecclesiarchy.

Not saying that all "true" members of the clergy are sincere, mind you, just pointing out something interesting about that example. In general, I certainly believe that power has a corrupting influence, be it command authority over an Astartes Legion or spiritual leadership over the masses of the people. Which is why we now have the Codex Astartes and the Ordo Hereticus.

Beaviz81 wrote:The Ecclechicarchy demands you go to church whether you want to or not. AdMech as you said Manchu comes with special invitation.

This actually makes me understand the people I've criticised in an earlier post better - a little. However, I would point out that it's just a matter of birth. When you happen to be born on a world administrated by the Adeptus Terra, the Ecclesiarchy comes for you. When you happen to be born on a world administrated by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Tech-Priests come to you. Better hope you don't mind having both your arms exchanged for drills and your legs for treads.

No Lynata it requires affinity as well. The AdMech is a backward-looking organization, but they ain't without innovation. It's just that it goes slow and steady. No affinity with machines means no membership in the AdMech for you. Add Soup-Nazi-voice.

 Lynata wrote:

Also, what Crimson said. I'm here for the Grimdark, and I think you're really missing out if you just throw it all away due to RL convictions, Valerian!

I can't do that. I came to 40k on the Horus Heresy novels, and while I love BFG and am trying to get into the Imperial Guard, I can't get over the promise of progress the Imperium originally had that was callously thrown away by the post-Heresy Imperium.

EDIT: Let me make this clear though: I don't hate religion per se. Look at the flag guys, my country is a traditionally Catholic country and I'm a Catholic, albeit a non-practicing one. Ironic, isn't it?

I consider the Codex Astartes to be a massive mistake.

I consider Dorn and his doctrine of focused power like that of the Black Templars to have been a far better defense of the Imperium than Guilliman and his spread out but small armies.

As such, I will stand with Dorn.

This is a decision for wiser minds than my own. Vulkan opposes the Codex Astartes, and it is his opinion I trust the most, therefore I oppose it as well.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
It also weakened the Imperium militarily. The legions guaranteed Imperial military supremacy. No offense to the Guard, but they just can't completely fill the gap the legions once filled.

You're right: the Guard is way too big to fill the gaps left by converting the legions to chapters. They're more a great curtain wall built behind the rotten palisade of the Space Marines than a patchwork repair measure.


In addition to rendering the SM less of an organized threat to the Imperium, the Codex Astartes also generally crippled them, forcing the Imperium to develop and deploy a proper military, further negating the threat rogue Marines could pose.

The Codex Astartes, therefore, can be seen as having left the Imperium stronger, despite superficially weakening it.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
No Lynata it requires affinity as well. The AdMech is a backward-looking organization, but they ain't without innovation. It's just that it goes slow and steady. No affinity with machines means no membership in the AdMech for you. Add Soup-Nazi-voice.

Not quite. It only means that you won't become a techpriest but you will still become a worker (yay for having no rights whatsoever). The admech is just as oppressive as the ecclesiarchy, perhaps even more. You tinker with your computer? Have fun spending the rest of your life as a servitor. You actualy dare to invent something on your own? Haha, now you are a heretek, enjoy your life as a servitor ( if you are lucky ).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I can't do that. I came to 40k on the Horus Heresy novels, and while I love BFG and am trying to get into the Imperial Guard, I can't get over the promise of progress the Imperium originally had that was callously thrown away by the post-Heresy Imperium.

Yeah. That's the fething point. It is a corrupt, crumbling empire with glorious past that is long gone. If you don't like that, play at heresy era.

There's no need for foul language.