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And I respect Admiral Valerian's desire to have a more progressive IoM, with a higher tech stance, but unfortunately that has never been the design from GW studios for its 40k era Imperium.
One solution you can try is to merely model your own imperial forces for the table top in a more high tech manner, write your own fluff as to they hail from a bastion of progressive thought, and have resisted more of the decay that plagues the imperium.
Tabletop wise they will still be the same as the codex its from, but visually they can be much "cooler" looking.
I did not mean to be rude, I just won't get that attitude. I understand you like HH, but it already exists. There is no point bemoaning that 40K is not like 30K. Many people like 40K just fine as it is. It's like JJ Abrams trying to turn Star Trek into Star Wars*. I like both, but I want my Star Trek to feel like Star Trek and if I want to see Star Wars, I watch Star Wars then.
(* of course the worst part was that he turned it into Prequel Star Wars.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/12 13:00:35
Which legion retrieved the weapons needed to win the war from Mars when Horus' forces attacked? Which Legion held the line against the darkness against all odds refusing to give an inch when all hope seemed lost. Which Legion Held the imperial palace against overwhelming terrors from the warp? Which Legion killed the arch traitor Horus and his traitorous lackeys?
It wasn't The ultra marines they were too busy chasing shodows at the edge of the imperium, their actions and failure to respond were acts of treason, pure and simple, The blood angels failed at the final hurdle when Sanguinus was broken like a twig by the warmaster himself, The white scars were nowhere to be seen, running like cowards from the rebel forces. The emperor himself fell to Horus blade, being too weak and emotionally attached to his favoured son to do what was necessary, Rogal Dorn struck down Horus, although he would later claim it was the emperor. It was his shame, and his burden that he failed to protect his father when it mattered most. had rogal dorn faced horus, instead of sanguinus, weak weak sanguinus, the emperor would not be near death, and guillimans treasonous codex astartes would not have seen the light of day.
It was the Imperial fists who held the line, not the ultra marines, not the blood angels, not the whitescars and certainly not the dark angels. Rogal Dorn and the Imperial fists alone had the fortitude to stand and fight in the face of overwhelming odds and almost certain death and win the day.
And then, we are supposed to accede to the demands of Guilliman and break up the Legion? The legion who had held the imperial palace, the legion who had stood by the emperors side and protected him from harm? how dare they make these demands, Guilliman should have been cast down and executed like the coward he was.
It was prudence, not lack of will that forced Rogal Dorns hand. after the brutal fighting on Terra, Dorn could not risk another civil war. so it was we were forced to watch as our legion was broken up. and 10,000 years later, we, the imperial fists, the emperors chosen number but a handful, a shadow of our former glory, and the ultra marines? well i think we all see guillimans intent clear enough, he was in league with Horus all along, his 'ultra marines' now make up over half of the space marines in the imperium, fully 600,000 men, and the forces of his empire. The ultra marines alone are allowed to rule an empire, the ultra marines alone are allowed to violate the codex astartes. I spit on them
But The imperial fists are ever vigilant, and ever ready. when the appointed time comes, and guilliman emerges from his slumber and sides with the forces of darkness, we will once again rise to the challenge, and cast down the traitors, just as we have always done, just as we always will
Captain Sebastian 'Hammer' Dorn, 3rd Company, 5th chapter, Imperial fists
I really wonder why. I think it might be partly due to the losses he suffered on Istvaan V.
That seems a good reason, but then
IA: Black Templars: Dorn would not relent, and neither would Guilleman, Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders agreed with Dorn for they too did not want their Legions scattered to the corners of the galaxy, but Ferrus Mannus, Primarch of the Iron Hands and Corax of the Raven Guard backed the Ultramarines.
Corax and Ferrus (have to raise a question here for sure as he is a head) went with it. Could it possibly because their Legions had been so badly mauled that splitting the Legions would at least put them all on a level pegging so to speak. If the Legions did remain, I guess the ones that had suffered the most could have been looking over their shoulder all the time, through fear that it might be taken advantage of or that they might never recover and become obsolete or absorbed by another Legion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 14:18:27
I think we can dismiss the part about Ferrus, which leaves Corax. Corax is shaped by his disastrous attempt to rebuild his Legion via cloning -- specifically, his confidence in his own leadership had been badly shaken by the time Guilliman (presumably along with the other High Lords) issued the edict regarding Codex Astartes. Vulkan, so far as I know, suffered no such insecurity. His losses at Istvaan V were truly not his fault and he did not breed monsters as a means of dealing with them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 14:28:32
Manchu wrote: I think we can dismiss the part about Ferrus, which leaves Corax. Corax is shaped by his disastrous attempt to rebuild his Legion via cloning -- specifically, his confidence in his own leadership had been badly shaken by the time Guilliman (presumably along with the other High Lords) issued the edict regarding Codex Astartes. Vulkan, so far as I know, suffered no such insecurity. His losses at Istvaan V were truly not his fault and he did not breed monsters as a means of dealing with them.
Ok, that's good.
So Vulkan did not want to split up his Legion due to their current standing and Corax went with it because of his supposed failings, or at least that's what we can presume?
I dunno, we don't know much about Big V until his book comes out. All I'm saying is that we know he lost most of his Legion and would have been trying to rebuild when Guilliman announced dismantling the Legions -- that did not sit well with him. As you say, Corax was in the same position vis-a-vis Istavaan V but according to IA he "welcomed the decision, knowing that Guilliman's vision of the future was true." Looking at what we now know about Corax, it seems very plausible that he acknowledged Guilliman's vision because he had seen how things might possibly unfold in his own Legion. As far as we know, Vulkan never made similar mistakes and was therefore more naive.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/12 14:49:02
Corax was a broken man after the Heresy. He had mortgaged the future of his Space Marines for the means of being able to stop Horus. For me it seems Guilliman bullied him into accepting the Codex Astartes.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
the entire decay of the imperium is an example of why placing the power in the hands of the high lords was a terrible idea to begin with. Its possible the emperor would have done that after defeating chaos but chaos isn't defeated and turning over power to the politicians at the point guilliman did was a mistake.
Also any arguments based on what happened later would require the benefit of hindsight. And providing we didn't have that I'd still side with Dorn, because while I may not always trust his judgement I can at least trust his honesty.
And when it comes to superpowered demi gods that is more important.
So Vulkan did not want to split up his Legion due to their current standing and Corax went with it because of his supposed failings, or at least that's what we can presume?
Of course Vulkan apparently never did split his legion...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheDungen wrote: the entire decay of the imperium is an example of why placing the power in the hands of the high lords was a terrible idea to begin with. Its possible the emperor would have done that after defeating chaos but chaos isn't defeated and turning over power to the politicians at the point guilliman did was a mistake.
I don't know. High Lords have rules for ten thousand years without a major case of empire splitting civil war. That seems much better than what the Emperor and the Primarchs were capable of.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 15:08:25
So Vulkan did not want to split up his Legion due to their current standing and Corax went with it because of his supposed failings, or at least that's what we can presume?
Of course Vulkan apparently never did split his legion...
quite true, they have rumoured successors but none confirmed.
Beaviz81 wrote: For me it seems Guilliman bullied him into accepting the Codex Astartes.
Evidence?
They were alone, and nobody knows what was said between them. That sounds to me like a standard bullying tactic. Of course it's my interpretation, but I don't think Guilliman was opposed to bullying and Corax was an easy target for that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 15:12:21
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Frankenberry wrote: I don't like the idea that fear directed 'ol Robby's decision to make the codex. The Guard does a fine job of holding the line in the absence of the legions, but that's all they do. React to invasions, hold onto what they can, and in the rarer cases, push the enemy back. Just think of what an entire legion could do against something like the Maelstrom, or even the Eye. It would be possible to keep Chaos in check (weird pun), so much to the point that the Imperium could direct large portions of resources towards dealing with the Nid thread.
This is a two level argument. Firstly, you're probably right - a legion could have directly met any single threat to the Imperium and likely defeated it. To that, you'll get little argument. What if there are 20 simultaneous threats? 50? Can 9 loyalist legions handle that? Could 18? Of course not. Can't be in 2 places at once. And if you're suggesting that you can just split off companies from the main legion to deal with less problems, then you're talking about Chapters anyway. In the even that a threat is large enough, you simply bring in more chapters to meet it - like has been successfully done countless times.
"Robby's" decision to split the legions into chapters was as much a reaction to the Heresy as it was to his own intuition that that Imperium would be beset on all sides by foes. In order to meet the many, simultaneous threats, a large number of autonomous and self-contained military forces would be necessary. Chapters were the easiest way to get to that point. As you said, the guard can hold the line... perhaps elite units can even operate in offensive posture. But, for the most part, the heavy lifting needs to be done by the Astartes. In the years after the Heresy, you have 9 loyal legion, a number of which had been all but annihilated. At the least, their combat effectiveness was in the toilet. In order to ensure that those "few" forces could handle operations from one side of the galaxy to others - which, as well all know, was necessary - a division became the only logical solution.
While at this point, it may bring a glint to your eye to think about massive Astartes Legions marching out to meet Abbadon or a Tyranid incursion, the reality is that this simply wasn't an option at the time that the codex was written. The Imperium's military effectiveness had been essentially cut in half twice by the Horus Heresy. Humanity's enemies were not simply going to sit back and let us recover. The only way to maintain a hold was to have more, separate units... and ask more of each than they were truly designed to handle.
The codex wasn't just a good idea... it was the only option.
The codex wasn't just a good idea... it was the only option.
To quote a well know, and battle proven military commander, "Nicht kleckern, klotzen!" or "Don't tickle them, Smash!"
What the Heresy really showed was that no single individual could be allowed to command as large, and as well equipped force as the Legions had prior to, and during the rebellion. it put too much power in the hands of a single individual. The only fix that was needed, and proved to be one that was instituted, was the split of the military forces of the imperium into, Army, Navy, and Space Marines.
The Army cannot get around without the Navy, the Navy cannot occupy planets without the army, and for those truly tough wet yourself with fear opponents, you send in the Space marines, but the space marines, even a legion of them cannot match the navy in a space battle, or the firepower of the Army on the ground. That was the only organisational change that was required.
By splitting up the legion into 'penny packets' he robbed the imperium of its greatest offensive force (plot armour and ridiculous fluff aside) and turned the space marines into formations that arent big enough to be an offensive, or defensive force by any stretch of the imagination.
There were lots of threats facing the imperium after the battle of terra, but The ultramarines legion alone managed to contain a large number of them (admittedly by splitting up into smaller units) and this would have given the Imperium long enough to rebuild its military forces, reconstitue the remaining legions, and then totally smash flat the remaining traitor forces. instead guilliman insisted that his 'codex astartes' be instituted, deprived the imperium of its most powerful offensive force, and used his Legion, along with the threat of another civil war to get his own way. With the Ultra Marines as strong as they were, relatively unbloodied from the most vicious fighting, and the other legions decimated by the same, a second civil war would have been pretty much a foregone conclusion.
Any way you look at it, objectively, splitting the Legions into smaller autonomous units means that the imperium effectively lost its most potent offensive force, and with the small size of a chapter, you are forever relegated to fighting defensive actions, against overwhelming odds, with insufficient forces to do the job. look at the trouble the imperium has getting more than a few thousand astartes in the same place at the same time, how many marines made it to armageddon? how well did they cooperate? with their own customs, their own chains of command, differing objectives and out looks. how much more effective would it be to deploy a large, homogenous force of astartes, with a unified chain of command to a warzone? and how much more effective would that formation be? just because chapters cooperate, doesn't mean they do so effectively.
TheDungen wrote: Also any arguments based on what happened later would require the benefit of hindsight.
No, those argument prove that Guilliman had excellent foresight.
Yeah they prove it to us who know what happened later who have the benefit of hindsight. But a person making their decision at that time would not know that.
TheDungen wrote: the entire decay of the imperium is an example of why placing the power in the hands of the high lords was a terrible idea to begin with. Its possible the emperor would have done that after defeating chaos but chaos isn't defeated and turning over power to the politicians at the point guilliman did was a mistake.
I don't know. High Lords have rules for ten thousand years without a major case of empire splitting civil war. That seems much better than what the Emperor and the Primarchs were capable of.
And the only people who have ever benefited from them doing so are themselves. We are weighing the nightmare scenario of what happened against what could have happened so there are no perfect answers but we can see that things have steadily gone from bad to worse since the emperor ascended the golden throne.
its possible it was inevitable but its also possible an effect of the choices made since.
Considering exactly how bad the imperium is a place to live I'd take my chances with Dorn. extinction might actually be preferable to the imperium that Guilliman set in motion.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/12 18:30:04
The codex wasn't just a good idea... it was the only option.
By splitting up the legion into 'penny packets' he robbed the imperium of its greatest offensive force (plot armour and ridiculous fluff aside) and turned the space marines into formations that arent big enough to be an offensive, or defensive force by any stretch of the imagination.
There were lots of threats facing the imperium after the battle of terra, but The ultramarines legion alone managed to contain a large number of them (admittedly by splitting up into smaller units) and this would have given the Imperium long enough to rebuild its military forces, reconstitue the remaining legions, and then totally smash flat the remaining traitor forces. instead guilliman insisted that his 'codex astartes' be instituted, deprived the imperium of its most powerful offensive force, and used his Legion, along with the threat of another civil war to get his own way. With the Ultra Marines as strong as they were, relatively unbloodied from the most vicious fighting, and the other legions decimated by the same, a second civil war would have been pretty much a foregone conclusion.
Any way you look at it, objectively, splitting the Legions into smaller autonomous units means that the imperium effectively lost its most potent offensive force, and with the small size of a chapter, you are forever relegated to fighting defensive actions, against overwhelming odds, with insufficient forces to do the job. look at the trouble the imperium has getting more than a few thousand astartes in the same place at the same time, how many marines made it to armageddon? how well did they cooperate? with their own customs, their own chains of command, differing objectives and out looks. how much more effective would it be to deploy a large, homogenous force of astartes, with a unified chain of command to a warzone? and how much more effective would that formation be? just because chapters cooperate, doesn't mean they do so effectively.
Can't disagree more.
Splitting into smaller forces (chapters) allowed the Imperium to place it's most effective fighting forces (Astartes) in many places at once. Which only became more and more necessary with each passing century. It also allowed the "best commander" - i.e. Chapter masters or 1st/2nd captains - to command each theater... rather than forcing larger legions to put some random company commander in charge of an entire theatre when the legion was invariably forced to split off companies to engage elsewhere.
Further, stating that chapters forced the Imperium into purely defensive postures is plainly wrong. There have been just as many offensive crusades as defensive activities since the division of the legions. How the chapters fight is purely based on what is happening. Are we reacting to an attack - play D. If you're the on pushing - you're on O. It's that simple. It wouldn't be any different if it were Legions.
Finally, stating that the Imperium had trouble bringing together many chapters for a single operation is misleading. Had trouble? Not even sure what that means. As for whether or not it happens when necessary... it does. The 13th Black Crusade involved 28 different chapters... plus countless other forces. The Third War for Armageddon involved 25+ chapters. So...yeah.
Splitting into smaller forces (chapters) allowed the Imperium to place it's most effective fighting forces (Astartes) in many places at once. Which only became more and more necessary with each passing century. It also allowed the "best commander" - i.e. Chapter masters or 1st/2nd captains - to command each theater... rather than forcing larger legions to put some random company commander in charge of an entire theatre when the legion was invariably forced to split off companies to engage elsewhere.
Further, stating that chapters forced the Imperium into purely defensive postures is plainly wrong. There have been just as many offensive crusades as defensive activities since the division of the legions. How the chapters fight is purely based on what is happening. Are we reacting to an attack - play D. If you're the on pushing - you're on O. It's that simple. It wouldn't be any different if it were Legions.
Finally, stating that the Imperium had trouble bringing together many chapters for a single operation is misleading. Had trouble? Not even sure what that means. As for whether or not it happens when necessary... it does. The 13th Black Crusade involved 28 different chapters... plus countless other forces. The Third War for Armageddon involved 25+ chapters. So...yeah.
I wonder how long the Tau would have survived during the Damocles gulf crusade if instead of a mere 5 companies of space marines (from dozens of chapters) and a handful of ships and imperial guard formations, an entire Legion had been deployed, i think, the Tau would be a small footnote in history.
Just because a Legion is an inherently large formation doesn't mean it cannot be split down into smaller units to perform specific tasks, and it also doesnt mean that the captain of a space marine company in a legion, would be any less capable a commander than a captain in a much smaller Chapter. if anything he would have a broader understanding, because he would have fough in battles where a lot more marines were involved.
And lets not forget the Communications benefits. A single unified command is much preferable to the mess that imperial forces must have been faced with during both of the campaigns you mentioned, and even assuming full chapter deployment, 28,000 marines (and lots of imperial guard) opposed the 13th black crusade, thats 28 different fleets, with 28 different force commanders, not even taking into account the army and navy, pity the comms officers in those campaigns and just image the casualties from friendly fire! And while 28 chapters might seem a lot, thats still only roughly 1/4 of a space marine Legion, and the legion, with a unfied fleet of strike cruisers and battle barges will have far fewer incidents of friendly fire.
Space marines were created as an offensive force, The space marine Legions were the Offensive force that made the great crusade possible, and after the horus heresy, the Astartes were defanged and turned into a shadow of their former selves. The imperial guard are there to defend humanity, not the marines, the marines are there to crush humanities enemies.
Guilliman made a very, very big mistake when he pushed the codex astartes through, spreading your strength over a wide area means you end up being weak everywhere, Concentration of force is a very simple, and very effective strategic concept, but one that Robute either never learned, or quickly forgot.Maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, and thats exactly what he intended. but intentional or not, dispersing the Marines, in penny packets throughout the imperium, plot armour aside, means they lose their offensive power, and have limited defensive strength.
Looking at the current timeline of 40k with so many of these "individual chapters" going rogue or traitor, i'd have gone with Dorn on this.
And who know's the surviving primarchs might not have gone emo and disappeared on their legions if they weren't broken up, at least the imperium would still have actual leaders instead of politicians in the current 40k universe.
I wonder how long the Tau would have survived during the Damocles gulf crusade if instead of a mere 5 companies of space marines (from dozens of chapters) and a handful of ships and imperial guard formations, an entire Legion had been deployed, i think, the Tau would be a small footnote in history.
Just because a Legion is an inherently large formation doesn't mean it cannot be split down into smaller units to perform specific tasks, and it also doesnt mean that the captain of a space marine company in a legion, would be any less capable a commander than a captain in a much smaller Chapter. if anything he would have a broader understanding, because he would have fough in battles where a lot more marines were involved.
And lets not forget the Communications benefits. A single unified command is much preferable to the mess that imperial forces must have been faced with during both of the campaigns you mentioned, and even assuming full chapter deployment, 28,000 marines (and lots of imperial guard) opposed the 13th black crusade, thats 28 different fleets, with 28 different force commanders, not even taking into account the army and navy, pity the comms officers in those campaigns and just image the casualties from friendly fire! And while 28 chapters might seem a lot, thats still only roughly 1/4 of a space marine Legion, and the legion, with a unfied fleet of strike cruisers and battle barges will have far fewer incidents of friendly fire.
Space marines were created as an offensive force, The space marine Legions were the Offensive force that made the great crusade possible, and after the horus heresy, the Astartes were defanged and turned into a shadow of their former selves. The imperial guard are there to defend humanity, not the marines, the marines are there to crush humanities enemies.
Guilliman made a very, very big mistake when he pushed the codex astartes through, spreading your strength over a wide area means you end up being weak everywhere, Concentration of force is a very simple, and very effective strategic concept, but one that Robute either never learned, or quickly forgot.Maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, and thats exactly what he intended. but intentional or not, dispersing the Marines, in penny packets throughout the imperium, plot armour aside, means they lose their offensive power, and have limited defensive strength.
Again...
If all you have is a few <10 large Legions, you:
1. Can't be everywhere at once.
2. End up splitting into smaller forces
3. Might as well make them smaller forces permanently.
As for the Tau during Damocles Gulf Crusade - it wasn't 5 companies... it was "several chapters". Even if there were legions available, do you think an entire one could have been brought to bear in one place? Of course not. You do that, you might score a win vs. the Tau, but get runover in all the places you left naked.
I know it hurts. I know you want Legions - they just sound cooler. But, from a military standpoint, it simply would not be possible to keep Legions fighting together... or even close to it.
I wonder how long the Tau would have survived during the Damocles gulf crusade if instead of a mere 5 companies of space marines (from dozens of chapters) and a handful of ships and imperial guard formations, an entire Legion had been deployed, i think, the Tau would be a small footnote in history.
Just because a Legion is an inherently large formation doesn't mean it cannot be split down into smaller units to perform specific tasks, and it also doesnt mean that the captain of a space marine company in a legion, would be any less capable a commander than a captain in a much smaller Chapter. if anything he would have a broader understanding, because he would have fough in battles where a lot more marines were involved.
And lets not forget the Communications benefits. A single unified command is much preferable to the mess that imperial forces must have been faced with during both of the campaigns you mentioned, and even assuming full chapter deployment, 28,000 marines (and lots of imperial guard) opposed the 13th black crusade, thats 28 different fleets, with 28 different force commanders, not even taking into account the army and navy, pity the comms officers in those campaigns and just image the casualties from friendly fire! And while 28 chapters might seem a lot, thats still only roughly 1/4 of a space marine Legion, and the legion, with a unfied fleet of strike cruisers and battle barges will have far fewer incidents of friendly fire.
Space marines were created as an offensive force, The space marine Legions were the Offensive force that made the great crusade possible, and after the horus heresy, the Astartes were defanged and turned into a shadow of their former selves. The imperial guard are there to defend humanity, not the marines, the marines are there to crush humanities enemies.
Guilliman made a very, very big mistake when he pushed the codex astartes through, spreading your strength over a wide area means you end up being weak everywhere, Concentration of force is a very simple, and very effective strategic concept, but one that Robute either never learned, or quickly forgot.Maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, and thats exactly what he intended. but intentional or not, dispersing the Marines, in penny packets throughout the imperium, plot armour aside, means they lose their offensive power, and have limited defensive strength.
Again...
If all you have is a few <10 large Legions, you:
1. Can't be everywhere at once.
2. End up splitting into smaller forces
3. Might as well make them smaller forces permanently.
As for the Tau during Damocles Gulf Crusade - it wasn't 5 companies... it was "several chapters". Even if there were legions available, do you think an entire one could have been brought to bear in one place? Of course not. You do that, you might score a win vs. the Tau, but get runover in all the places you left naked.
I know it hurts. I know you want Legions - they just sound cooler. But, from a military standpoint, it simply would not be possible to keep Legions fighting together... or even close to it.
He's right though. Keeping the Legions would have given the Imperium a unified and readily accessible fighting force that is still capable of splitting up to deal with minor incursions OR easily come together to fend off larger ones. United we stand, etc, etc
Edit: also the legions had no size restriction so who's to say there wouldn't be enough to deal with everything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 21:38:30
I wonder how long the Tau would have survived during the Damocles gulf crusade if instead of a mere 5 companies of space marines (from dozens of chapters) and a handful of ships and imperial guard formations, an entire Legion had been deployed, i think, the Tau would be a small footnote in history.
Just because a Legion is an inherently large formation doesn't mean it cannot be split down into smaller units to perform specific tasks, and it also doesnt mean that the captain of a space marine company in a legion, would be any less capable a commander than a captain in a much smaller Chapter. if anything he would have a broader understanding, because he would have fough in battles where a lot more marines were involved.
And lets not forget the Communications benefits. A single unified command is much preferable to the mess that imperial forces must have been faced with during both of the campaigns you mentioned, and even assuming full chapter deployment, 28,000 marines (and lots of imperial guard) opposed the 13th black crusade, thats 28 different fleets, with 28 different force commanders, not even taking into account the army and navy, pity the comms officers in those campaigns and just image the casualties from friendly fire! And while 28 chapters might seem a lot, thats still only roughly 1/4 of a space marine Legion, and the legion, with a unfied fleet of strike cruisers and battle barges will have far fewer incidents of friendly fire.
Space marines were created as an offensive force, The space marine Legions were the Offensive force that made the great crusade possible, and after the horus heresy, the Astartes were defanged and turned into a shadow of their former selves. The imperial guard are there to defend humanity, not the marines, the marines are there to crush humanities enemies.
Guilliman made a very, very big mistake when he pushed the codex astartes through, spreading your strength over a wide area means you end up being weak everywhere, Concentration of force is a very simple, and very effective strategic concept, but one that Robute either never learned, or quickly forgot.Maybe i'm not giving him enough credit, and thats exactly what he intended. but intentional or not, dispersing the Marines, in penny packets throughout the imperium, plot armour aside, means they lose their offensive power, and have limited defensive strength.
Again...
If all you have is a few <10 large Legions, you:
1. Can't be everywhere at once.
2. End up splitting into smaller forces
3. Might as well make them smaller forces permanently.
As for the Tau during Damocles Gulf Crusade - it wasn't 5 companies... it was "several chapters". Even if there were legions available, do you think an entire one could have been brought to bear in one place? Of course not. You do that, you might score a win vs. the Tau, but get runover in all the places you left naked.
I know it hurts. I know you want Legions - they just sound cooler. But, from a military standpoint, it simply would not be possible to keep Legions fighting together... or even close to it.
He's right though. Keeping the Legions would have a unified and readily accessible fighting force that is still capable of splitting up to deal with minor incursions OR easily come together to fend off larger ones. United we stand, etc, etc
Again... I disagree. Not that they could never come together, but that they'd never have a chance to. At the end of the day, if you ever even tried to coalesce a whole Legion, you'd abandon so much ground that your 1 big win would end up causing 1000 little losses.
If they retcon the Codex to say 4-5,000 battle vrothers per chapter, I would support that. 1000 is far too small for the way Astartes are currently written. Their being treated like shock troopers and ultra heavy infantry. How they would go about retconning more marines per chapter without messing up established stories of chapters losing large numbers of battle brothers is beyond me. 50,000 is too many to trust to one person but 1,000 is too few to get the job done. This is based on the assumption of there being roughly 1,000 chapters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/12 22:17:06
amudkipz wrote: If they retcon the Codex to say 4-5,000 battle vrothers per chapter, I would support that. 1000 is far too small for the way Astartes are currently written. Their being treated like shock troopers and ultra heavy infantry. How they would go about retconning more marines per chapter without messing up established stories of chapters losing large numbers of battle brothers is beyond me. 50,000 is too many to trust to one person but 1,000 is too few to get the job done.
That would be great. And I agree. 5000/chapter would be perfect. That's not what happened, though. And, if the question is which I prefer between 50,000-100,000+ and 1000.... I take 1000.
Could they just say the Codex recommends at least 1000 Battle Brothers but never more than 5,000? BT would still be rule breakers and the structures would be the same only with more squads per company. Any under 500 would still be considered short on numbers but not so much they're totally useless. Crimson Fist.
quite true, they have rumoured successors but none confirmed.
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