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Stand with Guilliman and the Codex Astartes
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Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The legions guaranteed Imperial military supremacy.
By utterly destroying it.

The legions were always a horrible and unprofessional military organization.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/12 23:55:22


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





Remember that the chapters are generally under strength as it is, implying they're more limited by logistics concerns and the difficulty of producing new Marines than by the hard limit on their size.

The legions at their strongest come to an effective strength of less than one millionth of the Imperium's current forces (counting the AdMech and its Skitarii and Titan Legions), and post-heresy they were less than half of that. Leaving them intact would at best have left a bunch of large, insular, effectively independent states, any of which could cause serious problem if it chose to secede. At worst, it would have rendered the full development of a more materially efficient and scalable military force less important until it was too late, and the Imperium was overwhelmed.

 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






amudkipz wrote:
If they retcon the Codex to say 4-5,000 battle vrothers per chapter, I would support that. 1000 is far too small for the way Astartes are currently written. Their being treated like shock troopers and ultra heavy infantry. How they would go about retconning more marines per chapter without messing up established stories of chapters losing large numbers of battle brothers is beyond me. 50,000 is too many to trust to one person but 1,000 is too few to get the job done. This is based on the assumption of there being roughly 1,000 chapters.


I agree. Thousand is just absurdly few for the sort of feats Space Marine chapters are supposed to achieve according the fluff. Unfortunately this is a something GW will never change.

   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





 Melissia wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
The legions guaranteed Imperial military supremacy.
By utterly destroying it.

The legions were always a horrible and unprofessional military organization.

You messed up that quote. My post was arguing against that.

 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Okay, okay... I'll be TFG and just say it...

Rome...

With the LEGIONS, they were the largest empire in human history until they (wait for it)... spread themselves too thin and broke the legions into smaller groups. Then the mongols came along and utterly defeated them...

Take a minute... breath... think about that... and before you rage post... think about it again.... breath....
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




United States

 En Excelsis wrote:
Okay, okay... I'll be TFG and just say it...

Rome...

With the LEGIONS, they were the largest empire in human history until they (wait for it)... spread themselves too thin and broke the legions into smaller groups. Then the mongols came along and utterly defeated them...

Take a minute... breath... think about that... and before you rage post... think about it again.... breath....


Actually, i would argue it was because of corruption from its leaders such as the Emperors and poor commanders.


Also no one wants there to be 9 giant armies running around, Dorns plan is simply a unified force of 9 legions insteads of 1000 chapters.

Think of it this way, it is easier to command the entire United States Army, Marines, Airforce, and Navy than it is to command an equal number of army, marines, AF, Navy from NATO and other UN forces. I support Dorn and his idea of one military force over Guilliman and his British, American, German , French, Polish, etc... force.

2000pts. Cadians
500pts Imperial Fist


I am Blue/White
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Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





 Galdos wrote:
 En Excelsis wrote:
Okay, okay... I'll be TFG and just say it...

Rome...

With the LEGIONS, they were the largest empire in human history until they (wait for it)... spread themselves too thin and broke the legions into smaller groups. Then the mongols came along and utterly defeated them...

Take a minute... breath... think about that... and before you rage post... think about it again.... breath....


Actually, i would argue it was because of corruption from its leaders such as the Emperors and poor commanders.

They conquered everyone worth conquering, stagnated, and then some jerk comes along and takes all the territory that's actually still valuable and cuts the rest loose. The valuable side survived for quite a bit longer, and if I recall correctly only fell less than a thousand years ago.



The legions wouldn't really make much difference in the current era. The Imperium has much greater force concentration methods (Titans) and millions of Guardsmen for every space marine the legions had at their peak. The Imperium has a thousand main battle tanks for every space marine. The Imperium has dozens of super-heavy tanks for every space marine. The Imperium has several Titans for every space marine. The Imperium has at least one warship capable of leveling continents for every space marine.

If the Imperium can't afford to commit more troops to a conflict than a few warhounds, a few companies of marines, and a hundred thousand guardsmen, it wouldn't be able to commit enough of a legion to mean anything either.

 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

There are a lot of posts here indicating that the space marines make any major contribution to the defensive fights in the IoM and so they need to be spread out so they can "defend" the IoM.

This is ridiculous. The astartes are an offensive weapon like delta force or other elite strike units. The astartes cannot win any battles of attrition against anyone other than perhaps eldar who still would probably win a battle of attrition against an all astartes force. Imperial guard, imperial navy, and PDFs do the majority of the defense of the imperium with quick insertions and special assignments handled by the sisters of battle, astartes, inquisition, etc. The times that chapters end up fighting defensive battles it is often a costly trade of astartes for buying time and a huge blunder on the IoM's part.

The current strategy of the IoM is hold its position until the emperor reawakens. This may have been the true goal of the chaos gods as it would create rampant cult behavior and cult behavior tends to evoke strong fanatical emotions and responses.

As a side note does anyone know what happens to a chaos god if enough people actively disbelieve in a chaos god's existence rather than just being ignorant of it? It seems like since worship of a chaos god and emotions that correspond to it would empower it then active disbelief and opposing emotions might weaken it.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Los Angeles, CA

 ansacs wrote:
There are a lot of posts here indicating that the space marines make any major contribution to the defensive fights in the IoM and so they need to be spread out so they can "defend" the IoM.

This is ridiculous. The astartes are an offensive weapon like delta force or other elite strike units. The astartes cannot win any battles of attrition against anyone other than perhaps eldar who still would probably win a battle of attrition against an all astartes force. Imperial guard, imperial navy, and PDFs do the majority of the defense of the imperium with quick insertions and special assignments handled by the sisters of battle, astartes, inquisition, etc. The times that chapters end up fighting defensive battles it is often a costly trade of astartes for buying time and a huge blunder on the IoM's part.

The current strategy of the IoM is hold its position until the emperor reawakens. This may have been the true goal of the chaos gods as it would create rampant cult behavior and cult behavior tends to evoke strong fanatical emotions and responses.

As a side note does anyone know what happens to a chaos god if enough people actively disbelieve in a chaos god's existence rather than just being ignorant of it? It seems like since worship of a chaos god and emotions that correspond to it would empower it then active disbelief and opposing emotions might weaken it.


If IG and PDF were enough to handle the defensive needs of the Imperium, then SM wouldn't need to participate at all. Therefore, whether its legions or chapters, the SM would have to actively participate in defensive campaigns.

The SM, while certainly a cut above all other forces, are NOTHING like Delta force. They are elite formations. Shock troops. And in chapter form, they are elite expeditionary forces. Self-contained. Self-supporting. Highly mobile. Exactly what a galaxy spanning empire needs to defend all that territory... and to attack its enemies when the opportunity prevents itself. Like I've said repeatedly - even if there were still legions, they'd be operating at roughly chapter size 99% of the time because there are too many threats in too many places... all at the same time. And, as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the IG and PDFs are not capable of defending everything alone.

As for your interesting question at the end - active disbelief is not possible. 99.99999999999% of the population has no knowledge of Chaos.

 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





 Traejun wrote:

If IG and PDF were enough to handle the defensive needs of the Imperium, then SM wouldn't need to participate at all. Therefore, whether its legions or chapters, the SM would have to actively participate in defensive campaigns.

The SM, while certainly a cut above all other forces, are NOTHING like Delta force. They are elite formations. Shock troops. And in chapter form, they are elite expeditionary forces. Self-contained. Self-supporting. Highly mobile. Exactly what a galaxy spanning empire needs to defend all that territory... and to attack its enemies when the opportunity prevents itself. Like I've said repeatedly - even if there were still legions, they'd be operating at roughly chapter size 99% of the time because there are too many threats in too many places... all at the same time. And, as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the IG and PDFs are not capable of defending everything alone.

The IG aren't capable of defending everything everywhere because even their massive numbers (~10 trillion guardsmen (one billion regiments of two thousand to tens of thousands), about ten times that for PDF) are occasionally too small to be fielded in sufficient strength everywhere they're needed.

Space Marines are orders of magnitude less able to perform, particularly in defensive operations. When we have Marines and Guard operating in concert, it is the Guard who carry the day, while the Marines are marginally more effective than just fielding more tanks would be. Even at Macragge, the Ultramarines were little more than a sideshow, with the battle being won by the Navy in space, and the several million PDF soldiers on the ground (who don't even get an honorable mention; the Ultramarines on the planet run away and die, the Navy smashes the hive fleet, and the remaining Ultramarines in space return to mop up the scattered, broken pockets of resistance left on Macragge; the only other military force present was a PDF, numbering several hundred times the effective strength of the entire Ultramarines chapter).

 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
 Traejun wrote:

If IG and PDF were enough to handle the defensive needs of the Imperium, then SM wouldn't need to participate at all. Therefore, whether its legions or chapters, the SM would have to actively participate in defensive campaigns.

The SM, while certainly a cut above all other forces, are NOTHING like Delta force. They are elite formations. Shock troops. And in chapter form, they are elite expeditionary forces. Self-contained. Self-supporting. Highly mobile. Exactly what a galaxy spanning empire needs to defend all that territory... and to attack its enemies when the opportunity prevents itself. Like I've said repeatedly - even if there were still legions, they'd be operating at roughly chapter size 99% of the time because there are too many threats in too many places... all at the same time. And, as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the IG and PDFs are not capable of defending everything alone.

The IG aren't capable of defending everything everywhere because even their massive numbers (~10 trillion guardsmen (one billion regiments of two thousand to tens of thousands), about ten times that for PDF) are occasionally too small to be fielded in sufficient strength everywhere they're needed.

Space Marines are orders of magnitude less able to perform, particularly in defensive operations. When we have Marines and Guard operating in concert, it is the Guard who carry the day, while the Marines are marginally more effective than just fielding more tanks would be. Even at Macragge, the Ultramarines were little more than a sideshow, with the battle being won by the Navy in space, and the several million PDF soldiers on the ground (who don't even get an honorable mention; the Ultramarines on the planet run away and die, the Navy smashes the hive fleet, and the remaining Ultramarines in space return to mop up the scattered, broken pockets of resistance left on Macragge; the only other military force present was a PDF, numbering several hundred times the effective strength of the entire Ultramarines chapter).


I agree the basic troopers are just not as "awe inspiring" as the astartes so they don't get the credit but they are definitely the real muscle in large conflicts. The astartes are most definitely an offensive weapon. Can you imagine fighting a defensive campaign where you are outnumbered 1 to ~10 000? Those are the odds of space marines to orks or tyranids. Assuming you deploy 10 astartes in each location than an entire chapter could defend 100 locations on a single planet. This is an impossible defense and the astartes can be entirely ignored in the attack and conquest of well over 90% of a planet. They can only be effective if they are held in reserve and used to counter attack a center of production or leadership...which is exactly what they do if your read any of the material (BTW this is semi-parallel to delta force). Keeping them to chapter size just makes them spread out and try to fight defensive battles, where they die to little advantage.

Also why does anyone think that is would be more or less grimdark to have legions around? In fact the addition of a possible light at the end of the tunnel that fails to ever come about due to human greed, prejudice, and/or bigotry seems much more grimdark to me then unrelieved bleakness as there is context to the darkness of the setting and the people are not just doing the best they can they are failing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/13 08:49:53


 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Los Angeles, CA

 ansacs wrote:
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
 Traejun wrote:

If IG and PDF were enough to handle the defensive needs of the Imperium, then SM wouldn't need to participate at all. Therefore, whether its legions or chapters, the SM would have to actively participate in defensive campaigns.

The SM, while certainly a cut above all other forces, are NOTHING like Delta force. They are elite formations. Shock troops. And in chapter form, they are elite expeditionary forces. Self-contained. Self-supporting. Highly mobile. Exactly what a galaxy spanning empire needs to defend all that territory... and to attack its enemies when the opportunity prevents itself. Like I've said repeatedly - even if there were still legions, they'd be operating at roughly chapter size 99% of the time because there are too many threats in too many places... all at the same time. And, as we all know (but some refuse to accept) the IG and PDFs are not capable of defending everything alone.

The IG aren't capable of defending everything everywhere because even their massive numbers (~10 trillion guardsmen (one billion regiments of two thousand to tens of thousands), about ten times that for PDF) are occasionally too small to be fielded in sufficient strength everywhere they're needed.

Space Marines are orders of magnitude less able to perform, particularly in defensive operations. When we have Marines and Guard operating in concert, it is the Guard who carry the day, while the Marines are marginally more effective than just fielding more tanks would be. Even at Macragge, the Ultramarines were little more than a sideshow, with the battle being won by the Navy in space, and the several million PDF soldiers on the ground (who don't even get an honorable mention; the Ultramarines on the planet run away and die, the Navy smashes the hive fleet, and the remaining Ultramarines in space return to mop up the scattered, broken pockets of resistance left on Macragge; the only other military force present was a PDF, numbering several hundred times the effective strength of the entire Ultramarines chapter).


I agree the basic troopers are just not as "awe inspiring" as the astartes so they don't get the credit but they are definitely the real muscle in large conflicts. The astartes are most definitely an offensive weapon. Can you imagine fighting a defensive campaign where you are outnumbered 1 to ~10 000? Those are the odds of space marines to orks or tyranids. Assuming you deploy 10 astartes in each location than an entire chapter could defend 100 locations on a single planet. This is an impossible defense and the astartes can be entirely ignored in the attack and conquest of well over 90% of a planet. They can only be effective if they are held in reserve and used to counter attack a center of production or leadership...which is exactly what they do if your read any of the material (BTW this is semi-parallel to delta force). Keeping them to chapter size just makes them spread out and try to fight defensive battles, where they die to little advantage.

Also why does anyone think that is would be more or less grimdark to have legions around? In fact the addition of a possible light at the end of the tunnel that fails to ever come about due to human greed, prejudice, and/or bigotry seems much more grimdark to me then unrelieved bleakness as there is context to the darkness of the setting and the people are not just doing the best they can they are failing.


You don't defend that way... with SM or IG or PDF. Evenly dividing forces over a long line is WW1 tactics. No Space Marines in trenches, sugar.

 
   
Made in us
Giggling Nurgling




Which is exactly what the codex astartes did. Spreading your most potent weapon across the galaxy has the same effect as castrating it. It lacks the oomph to really get crap done.

Had the legions remained intact I think the present 40K setting would be just as grim, but a little less dark.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





This post is begining to show me that despite all the internet rage directed ad BA & SW fanboys.. IG fanboys are actually much worse.

The IG is a very important part of the Imprium to be sure, but they are sorry excuse for a SM replacement. They in no way perform the same role as SM legions/chapters. They never have and they never will.

Think of it like this. The IG (the Navy, PDF, etc) are a wall... they surround and defend the imperium against a wide range of threats. But as every dedicated enemy of the Emperor has shown, it invariably fails at it's task. Chaos WILL eventually punch a hole in the IG defences. Tyrands WILL eventually ovverun IG defences. Ork Waaaghs! WILL eventually blunder through the defences and it's the SM that always step in and plug the hole. That's their job. If the IoM were a fortress, the IG would be its physical outer wall, while the SM would be the elite forces surgically defending the areas that enemies breached.

IoM is in standby mode... holding it's line against every other race in the galaxy while rouge traders and a few ecclisiarchical mission ships periodically move beyond the borders to "expore" and expand. The IG no longer run crusades to re-conquer Imperial Space... Macharis is a historical figure in this setting. This is true in just the same way as SMs are no longer crusading to expand the Imperium. They defend it. When the BT launch a "crusade" they basically swear and oath to kill a given enemy (like a certain ork warboss and his massive Waaagh!) and hunt him down.

I mean no disrespect to the IG since they are a very colorful part of the fluff and actually quite an engaging army to play TT and collect... but they are not now nor will the ever be a replacement for the Legions Astartes. They are a patch job meant to hold the line and keep the Imperium held together until Pappa E wakes up (or doesn't).


As it concerns this argument: remember that while Legions were still in use, the Imperial Guard (note the use of the word GUARD) were still around. They still had the Navy, they still had the Titan legions, they still had the PDFs... but they ALSO had the Legions Astartes, which were the real power being mankind's dominance. It's a silly argument in the first place since there is no way to concretely say if things would be better or worse with the legions around since the writers have pointed us in neither direction. It's strictly hypothetical. But for my brand of logic, it stands to reason that if all other things remained the same, and the legions were still around, It would not really improve things. That being said, I still think that there is no way that a single person could have (at the time the codex was presented) conviced me that it was a good idea.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/13 20:17:24


 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
 Galdos wrote:
 En Excelsis wrote:
Okay, okay... I'll be TFG and just say it...

Rome...

With the LEGIONS, they were the largest empire in human history until they (wait for it)... spread themselves too thin and broke the legions into smaller groups. Then the mongols came along and utterly defeated them...

Take a minute... breath... think about that... and before you rage post... think about it again.... breath....


Actually, i would argue it was because of corruption from its leaders such as the Emperors and poor commanders.

They conquered everyone worth conquering, stagnated, and then some jerk comes along and takes all the territory that's actually still valuable and cuts the rest loose. The valuable side survived for quite a bit longer, and if I recall correctly only fell less than a thousand years ago.



The legions wouldn't really make much difference in the current era. The Imperium has much greater force concentration methods (Titans) and millions of Guardsmen for every space marine the legions had at their peak. The Imperium has a thousand main battle tanks for every space marine. The Imperium has dozens of super-heavy tanks for every space marine. The Imperium has several Titans for every space marine. The Imperium has at least one warship capable of leveling continents for every space marine.

If the Imperium can't afford to commit more troops to a conflict than a few warhounds, a few companies of marines, and a hundred thousand guardsmen, it wouldn't be able to commit enough of a legion to mean anything either.


I think that En Excelsis is practising the art of internet sarcasm here, especialy if we consider how often the roman legions turned against their rightful emperors
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Los Angeles, CA

 En Excelsis wrote:
This post is begining to show me that despite all the internet rage directed ad BA & SW fanboys.. IG fanboys are actually much worse.

The IG is a very important part of the Imprium to be sure, but they are sorry excuse for a SM replacement. They in no way perform the same role as SM legions/chapters. They never have and they never will.

Think of it like this. The IG (the Navy, PDF, etc) are a wall... they surround and defend the imperium against a wide range of threats. But as every dedicated enemy of the Emperor has shown, it invariably fails at it's task. Chaos WILL eventually punch a hole in the IG defences. Tyrands WILL eventually ovverun IG defences. Ork Waaaghs! WILL eventually blunder through the defences and it's the SM that always step in and plug the hole. That's their job. If the IoM were a fortress, the IG would be its physical outer wall, while the SM would be the elite forces surgically defending the areas that enemies breached.

IoM is in standby mode... holding it's line against every other race in the galaxy while rouge traders and a few ecclisiarchical mission ships periodically move beyond the borders to "expore" and expand. The IG no longer run crusades to re-conquer Imperial Space... Macharis is a historical figure in this setting. This is true in just the same way as SMs are no longer crusading to expand the Imperium. They defend it. When the BT launch a "crusade" they basically swear and oath to kill a given enemy (like a certain ork warboss and his massive Waaagh!) and hunt him down.

I mean no disrespect to the IG since they are a very colorful part of the fluff and actually quite an engaging army to play TT and collect... but they are not now nor will the ever be a replacement for the Legions Astartes. They are a patch job meant to hold the line and keep the Imperium held together until Pappa E wakes up (or doesn't).


As it concerns this argument: remember that while Legions were still in use, the Imperial Guard (note the use of the word GUARD) were still around. They still had the Navy, they still had the Titan legions, they still had the PDFs... but they ALSO had the Legions Astartes, which were the real power being mankind's dominance. It's a silly argument in the first place since there is no way to concretely say if things would be better or worse with the legions around since the writers have pointed us in neither direction. It's strictly hypothetical. But for my brand of logic, it stands to reason that if all other things remained the same, and the legions were still around, It would not really improve things. That being said, I still think that there is no way that a single person could have (at the time the codex was presented) conviced me that it was a good idea.



 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





 En Excelsis wrote:
This post is begining to show me that despite all the internet rage directed ad BA & SW fanboys.. IG fanboys are actually much worse.

The IG is a very important part of the Imprium to be sure, but they are sorry excuse for a SM replacement. They in no way perform the same role as SM legions/chapters. They never have and they never will.

Think of it like this. The IG (the Navy, PDF, etc) are a wall... they surround and defend the imperium against a wide range of threats. But as every dedicated enemy of the Emperor has shown, it invariably fails at it's task. Chaos WILL eventually punch a hole in the IG defences. Tyrands WILL eventually ovverun IG defences. Ork Waaaghs! WILL eventually blunder through the defences and it's the SM that always step in and plug the hole. That's their job. If the IoM were a fortress, the IG would be its physical outer wall, while the SM would be the elite forces surgically defending the areas that enemies breached.

All of these, Tyranids in particular, have a much better track record against SM than they do against Guard. The average armored regiment brings more firepower to a fight than a company of marines does. Literally the only thing space marines can do better is rapid insertion into hostile territory, provided they only have to smash something that's right there, and can run away afterwards.

IoM is in standby mode... holding it's line against every other race in the galaxy while rouge traders and a few ecclisiarchical mission ships periodically move beyond the borders to "expore" and expand. The IG no longer run crusades to re-conquer Imperial Space... Macharis is a historical figure in this setting. This is true in just the same way as SMs are no longer crusading to expand the Imperium. They defend it. When the BT launch a "crusade" they basically swear and oath to kill a given enemy (like a certain ork warboss and his massive Waaagh!) and hunt him down.

Actually, they sort of do. Haven't heard of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, or even the tiny Damocles Crusade? And it's always the Guard (and Navy) doing the heavy lifting.

I mean no disrespect to the IG since they are a very colorful part of the fluff and actually quite an engaging army to play TT and collect... but they are not now nor will the ever be a replacement for the Legions Astartes. They are a patch job meant to hold the line and keep the Imperium held together until Pappa E wakes up (or doesn't).

What part of "they're roughly one million times the equivalent strength of the space marines" are you not getting? And that's just going off numbers and canonical force equivalents (one marine ~= ten guardsmen), it's not even taking into account Guard armor and artillery, which would add another multiplier on top of that, leaving us with something like 3-4 million times greater.

As it concerns this argument: remember that while Legions were still in use, the Imperial Guard (note the use of the word GUARD) were still around. They still had the Navy, they still had the Titan legions, they still had the PDFs... but they ALSO had the Legions Astartes, which were the real power being mankind's dominance. It's a silly argument in the first place since there is no way to concretely say if things would be better or worse with the legions around since the writers have pointed us in neither direction. It's strictly hypothetical. But for my brand of logic, it stands to reason that if all other things remained the same, and the legions were still around, It would not really improve things. That being said, I still think that there is no way that a single person could have (at the time the codex was presented) conviced me that it was a good idea.

The Legions made sense at that point, because the Imperium started off extremely small, and force concentration didn't just mean you hit harder, but that you needed fewer ships. The Titan legions were also much smaller and less common, being the creation of Forgeworlds that weren't initially connected with Imperial space. The Imperial Army, likewise, was a much smaller force used as a garrison/peacekeeping force in the wake of the Crusades advance.

The Codex Astartes forced the Imperial Army to be developed into the primary fighting force, leading to the Guard, being vastly more efficient and scalable, far exceeding the capabilities of even the Legions at their peak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/13 23:11:59


 
   
Made in it
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Eboli, Italy

 En Excelsis wrote:

Think of it like this. The IG (the Navy, PDF, etc) are a wall... they surround and defend the imperium against a wide range of threats. But as every dedicated enemy of the Emperor has shown, it invariably fails at it's task. Chaos WILL eventually punch a hole in the IG defences. Tyrands WILL eventually ovverun IG defences. Ork Waaaghs! WILL eventually blunder through the defences and it's the SM that always step in and plug the hole. That's their job. If the IoM were a fortress, the IG would be its physical outer wall, while the SM would be the elite forces surgically defending the areas that enemies breached.

I agree, but more than a wall the IG is a Hammer. The Marine are the Sword. If, by some miracle, the HLoT choose to conquer a new sector/segmentum/dunno they sent the Guard. Why? 'Cause they are near limitless. Do you know why the Imperium doesn't crusade and conquer anymore? Because the Imperium is so big that in the meantime a help request arrives to Terra, the Old Farts (High Lords of Terra) decide what to do, and then send the letter back with the answer, the Guard Regiments sent on a planet/segmentum/sector could be already wiped out.
So the problem of the Imperium is, basically, the sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow burocracy and the distance. Oh, and the randomness of the Warp Travel.

 En Excelsis wrote:

As it concerns this argument: remember that while Legions were still in use, the Imperial Guard (note the use of the word GUARD) were still around. They still had the Navy, they still had the Titan legions, they still had the PDFs... but they ALSO had the Legions Astartes, which were the real power being mankind's dominance. It's a silly argument in the first place since there is no way to concretely say if things would be better or worse with the legions around since the writers have pointed us in neither direction. It's strictly hypothetical. But for my brand of logic, it stands to reason that if all other things remained the same, and the legions were still around, It would not really improve things. That being said, I still think that there is no way that a single person could have (at the time the codex was presented) conviced me that it was a good idea.

The Imperial Army (at the times of the Great Crusade) was a backup, now as the Codex and the fluff say the Imperial Guard, along with the Imperial Navy, are the main force of the Imperium.
You may not like it, but it's true, the Marine now are so few than they are "used" only in chirugical strikes, the Guard on the other hand andvance bit by bit, on the blood-covered ground or hold the line while waiting reinforcements.

Fanboys haven't nothing to do with this, the IG is actually the HAMMER of the Big E. for a reason. 'Cause is slow, very slow, but his impact is quite inevitable and is very, very strong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/14 00:05:53


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Additionally to all the above comments. If you try to remove "cancer" (read chaos/warboss/vital resource) with a hammer you will make a big mess. The astartes can and have defeated enemies without destroying the entire battlefield, the IG just do not have the ability to do this consistently. They always make a mess.

There is no fanboy about saying the hammer brings all the force as compared to a scalpel. They just do different stuff.
   
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 ansacs wrote:
Additionally to all the above comments. If you try to remove "cancer" (read chaos/warboss/vital resource) with a hammer you will make a big mess. The astartes can and have defeated enemies without destroying the entire battlefield, the IG just do not have the ability to do this consistently. They always make a mess.

There is no fanboy about saying the hammer brings all the force as compared to a scalpel. They just do different stuff.


Exactly, IG is better in something, the Marines in other things. It's not so hard.

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The Codex Astartes was the best way meaning that because there are hundreds of chapters, it means that if on chapter defects it's not going to be disastrous. If there were only 20 legions, the more chance they will all eventually defect and if one legions turns to chaos, it's disastrous.

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One thing I will add about the claims that multiple chapters are more flexible and responsive.

In some sense this is true, but I will give you this to consider, a Chapter rarely deploys its full strength for fear of being wiped out.

So let's say an Ork warlord picks a world to target with significant forces, an astropathic distress call gets sent which by its very nature is unreliable.

But for the sake of argument let's say a Legion detachment of 6000 and a chapter both pick up the reply simultaneously.

Legion response, this is a significant large scale threat, deploy 3000 marines to deal with it.

Chapter reponse, this is a significant large scale threat, we can only risk 750 marines. Let's hope that another chapter or 2 receive this astropathic message within a acceptable time scale.


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 Eetion wrote:
One thing I will add about the claims that multiple chapters are more flexible and responsive.

In some sense this is true, but I will give you this to consider, a Chapter rarely deploys its full strength for fear of being wiped out.

So let's say an Ork warlord picks a world to target with significant forces, an astropathic distress call gets sent which by its very nature is unreliable.

But for the sake of argument let's say a Legion detachment of 6000 and a chapter both pick up the reply simultaneously.

Legion response, this is a significant large scale threat, deploy 3000 marines to deal with it.

Chapter reponse, this is a significant large scale threat, we can only risk 750 marines. Let's hope that another chapter or 2 receive this astropathic message within a acceptable time scale.



This is a mistake I see a lot of people making in this discussion.

They are sending 3000 marines, that's more than 4 times as many. This automatically leaves 4 times as many worlds/systems without protection. You can't defend this point on a single battle.
   
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True. But not every world constantly needs defending. Not every war needs astartes involvement.

But your right, snaller conflicts are easier to repspond to. Larger conflicts may result in insuffiecient forces with the chapter methadology.

The Legions didn't go round in 1 big blob. They are capable of distributing themselves to respond to threats.

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 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
 ansacs wrote:
Additionally to all the above comments. If you try to remove "cancer" (read chaos/warboss/vital resource) with a hammer you will make a big mess. The astartes can and have defeated enemies without destroying the entire battlefield, the IG just do not have the ability to do this consistently. They always make a mess.

There is no fanboy about saying the hammer brings all the force as compared to a scalpel. They just do different stuff.


Exactly, IG is better in something, the Marines in other things. It's not so hard.

They're better in exactly one thing, which they're still not very good at due to their limited numbers and resources. They can rapidly insert semi-heavy firepower into hostile territory, which the guard can't really match. Once there, they have no staying power and heavily limited offensive capabilities; if they didn't all but land on their target, there's little chance of taking it out, and then they either run away or die, since fighting isn't an option unless they're sitting on an ammo dump.

In comparison, the Guard has its gunships as well as stormtroopers and drop regiments, who are a bit softer than marines but can be scaled up and replaced much easier than marines can be.

Space Marines are a blunt weapon whose sole strength lies in poorly imitating a sharp one. They're like a butter knife next to the Guard's spiked mace.

 
   
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Los Angeles, CA

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:
 ansacs wrote:
Additionally to all the above comments. If you try to remove "cancer" (read chaos/warboss/vital resource) with a hammer you will make a big mess. The astartes can and have defeated enemies without destroying the entire battlefield, the IG just do not have the ability to do this consistently. They always make a mess.

There is no fanboy about saying the hammer brings all the force as compared to a scalpel. They just do different stuff.


Exactly, IG is better in something, the Marines in other things. It's not so hard.

They're better in exactly one thing, which they're still not very good at due to their limited numbers and resources. They can rapidly insert semi-heavy firepower into hostile territory, which the guard can't really match. Once there, they have no staying power and heavily limited offensive capabilities; if they didn't all but land on their target, there's little chance of taking it out, and then they either run away or die, since fighting isn't an option unless they're sitting on an ammo dump.

In comparison, the Guard has its gunships as well as stormtroopers and drop regiments, who are a bit softer than marines but can be scaled up and replaced much easier than marines can be.

Space Marines are a blunt weapon whose sole strength lies in poorly imitating a sharp one. They're like a butter knife next to the Guard's spiked mace
[i].


May be the wrongest thing I've ever read... ever.

 
   
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You misspelled "correct".

 
   
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 Soladrin wrote:
 Eetion wrote:
One thing I will add about the claims that multiple chapters are more flexible and responsive.

In some sense this is true, but I will give you this to consider, a Chapter rarely deploys its full strength for fear of being wiped out.

So let's say an Ork warlord picks a world to target with significant forces, an astropathic distress call gets sent which by its very nature is unreliable.

But for the sake of argument let's say a Legion detachment of 6000 and a chapter both pick up the reply simultaneously.

Legion response, this is a significant large scale threat, deploy 3000 marines to deal with it.

Chapter reponse, this is a significant large scale threat, we can only risk 750 marines. Let's hope that another chapter or 2 receive this astropathic message within a acceptable time scale.



This is a mistake I see a lot of people making in this discussion.

They are sending 3000 marines, that's more than 4 times as many. This automatically leaves 4 times as many worlds/systems without protection. You can't defend this point on a single battle.


That's what I am trying to point out. The marines do not "defend" worlds. They could not even realistically defend a large city with a single chapter forget a world. The marines counter attack the enemies the IG and IN "defend" against. This ability is lessened in efficiency by the distributed nature of the chapters as they can only send a response of up to 1000 marines in response to any threat with out adding a great deal of time due to having to gather more than one chapter.

This is exactly why the DA are always there first when the fallen are found. They have a two step process 1 receive message; 2 send whatever forces needed from the pseudo legion that is the DA and successor chapters. Everyone else needs to negotiate, get permissions, and in general bureaucratic/politic to pull 1000+ astartes into a conflict.

Realistically think about "defending" even a single planet with 1000 troops. You need ~5 minimum to a single patrol and you would need at least 2 patrols to a location. This means you could only cover 100 locations without pdf or IG and you would be a joke actually trying to hold even ~10 locations on a planet. Ten locations held on a planet is a lost planet so any "defense" done by a SM chapter is going to end in a loss or a destruction of the planet to destroy the enemy forces.

The only defense operations a SM force has any business being the main force in is securing a beach head so a larger force can drop in and fortify.
   
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 ansacs wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Eetion wrote:
One thing I will add about the claims that multiple chapters are more flexible and responsive.

In some sense this is true, but I will give you this to consider, a Chapter rarely deploys its full strength for fear of being wiped out.

So let's say an Ork warlord picks a world to target with significant forces, an astropathic distress call gets sent which by its very nature is unreliable.

But for the sake of argument let's say a Legion detachment of 6000 and a chapter both pick up the reply simultaneously.

Legion response, this is a significant large scale threat, deploy 3000 marines to deal with it.

Chapter reponse, this is a significant large scale threat, we can only risk 750 marines. Let's hope that another chapter or 2 receive this astropathic message within a acceptable time scale.



This is a mistake I see a lot of people making in this discussion.

They are sending 3000 marines, that's more than 4 times as many. This automatically leaves 4 times as many worlds/systems without protection. You can't defend this point on a single battle.


That's what I am trying to point out. The marines do not "defend" worlds. They could not even realistically defend a large city with a single chapter forget a world. The marines counter attack the enemies the IG and IN "defend" against. This ability is lessened in efficiency by the distributed nature of the chapters as they can only send a response of up to 1000 marines in response to any threat with out adding a great deal of time due to having to gather more than one chapter.

This is exactly why the DA are always there first when the fallen are found. They have a two step process 1 receive message; 2 send whatever forces needed from the pseudo legion that is the DA and successor chapters. Everyone else needs to negotiate, get permissions, and in general bureaucratic/politic to pull 1000+ astartes into a conflict.

Realistically think about "defending" even a single planet with 1000 troops. You need ~5 minimum to a single patrol and you would need at least 2 patrols to a location. This means you could only cover 100 locations without pdf or IG and you would be a joke actually trying to hold even ~10 locations on a planet. Ten locations held on a planet is a lost planet so any "defense" done by a SM chapter is going to end in a loss or a destruction of the planet to destroy the enemy forces.

The only defense operations a SM force has any business being the main force in is securing a beach head so a larger force can drop in and fortify.

The problem is, this isn't the role they actually fill in practice. They primarily just run around, doing their own thing or just holding back and trying to build up their numbers, and only occasionally act in concert with proper military authority.

So the Guard is left to fill the role of both offense and defense, both of which it does better (because, you know, proper numbers, and proper armored assets).

It's also rather silly to keep bringing the Navy into it: there's no overlap between the Navy's role and that of the Space Marines. The marines have ships, yes, but very few, all at the lighter end of the spectrum. It's like comparing a Titan to a dreadnought: both are semi-humanoid vehicles, but one is a giant engine of war, and the other a tiny weapons platform of dubious purpose.

 
   
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Oddly enough Space Marines in space actually fulfill an ideal niche-- hard as hell troops for boarding actions when you need to capture a ship instead of destroy it.

And that's what their ships are built for, basically just carriers for hteir drop pods.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/15 02:30:51


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