Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The navy is there as they can help to hold off an enemy until proper mobilization of forces can occur. There is also such a thing as boarding actions (ever play space hulk?).

The astartes have one thing they can do much better that IG; Surgical strikes. The force concentration of 5 terminators is much higher than any IG option. The IG cannot do "surgical strikes" in that any such strike will take off an entire arm. They just need to many people to equal the force a SM can bring to allow them tp manage it.

Think of it this way. If you were going to attack a vital facility where you need to not destroy the entire thing (aka no blast templates) and you needed to be in and out fast which army would you say is best suited to this? Eldar...er, I mean IoM army. The SM; specifically the DWA or drop pod armies. They both get there faster (are less susceptible to air defense and early warning) and have room to maneuver once they are there. A similar IG force is both so many bodies on location that you have really occupied the facility and can no longer maneuver and has a tougher time getting there as it is much larger.

I agree that they currently do a poor job fulfilling this role and are often prone to fighting defensive battles where they are poorly suited but in part this is due to them being split into chapters where they are each put in control of their own little "fief" and try to defend that location. If they were still legions then anyone who attacked a SM HQ would have to deal with a combined arms force of IN, IA, and a SM detachment. The forces have currently been split though, so the chapters run around willynilly acting like some sort of knightly orders.

 Melissia wrote:
Oddly enough Space Marines in space actually fulfill an ideal niche-- hard as hell troops for boarding actions when you need to capture a ship instead of destroy it.

And that's what their ships are built for, basically just carriers for hteir drop pods.

Eh, not quite. Those Bombardment Cannons pack a nasty punch when it comes to ship-to-ship.

It's pitiful firepower compared to a navy ship of similar size.

Dorn. assuming this is still about Dorn and Guilliman. 1000 marines are ok for planet or sub system. more than 1000 are more useful to quell local multiple subsectors (in the event of a warpstorm etc. if thought out well enough the chapter master could hold out much like the Death Guard did before they were death guard. ie ration everything including space marines. in a system cut off from IOM from a warpstorm these marines could technically hold onto imperial control amongst the locals. with under or at 1k marines that would change drastically for the worse [speculation at best])

think of crusade chapters [mainly BT for example]

 ansacs wrote:
The navy is there as they can help to hold off an enemy until proper mobilization of forces can occur. There is also such a thing as boarding actions (ever play space hulk?).

How exactly does the Navy hold anything off? Either they engage and win, they engage and dropships get past them, or they engage and lose, space battles aren't nearly so protracted as land campaigns. They're just on an entirely different scale from the Space Marines, who are deliberately crippled in space. Battle barges are fairly small ships designed to be troop and materiel carriers, not warships.

The astartes have one thing they can do much better that IG; Surgical strikes. The force concentration of 5 terminators is much higher than any IG option. The IG cannot do "surgical strikes" in that any such strike will take off an entire arm. They just need to many people to equal the force a SM can bring to allow them tp manage it.

Think of it this way. If you were going to attack a vital facility where you need to not destroy the entire thing (aka no blast templates) and you needed to be in and out fast which army would you say is best suited to this? Eldar...er, I mean IoM army. The SM; specifically the DWA or drop pod armies. They both get there faster (are less susceptible to air defense and early warning) and have room to maneuver once they are there. A similar IG force is both so many bodies on location that you have really occupied the facility and can no longer maneuver and has a tougher time getting there as it is much larger.

I agree that they currently do a poor job fulfilling this role and are often prone to fighting defensive battles where they are poorly suited but in part this is due to them being split into chapters where they are each put in control of their own little "fief" and try to defend that location. If they were still legions then anyone who attacked a SM HQ would have to deal with a combined arms force of IN, IA, and a SM detachment. The forces have currently been split though, so the chapters run around willynilly acting like some sort of knightly orders.

The problem here is: what do they do once they've taken the facility, if they even managed to? Unless there's a bunch of Guard right behind them they're not going to be able to hold it for any real length of time, considering how logistically inconvenient their weapons are, and if you can get Guard in in the first place, you could take it with Guard.

The only scenario that makes sense is applying heavy firepower to a location where orbital bombardment isn't possible (because of anti-orbital defences, or a sufficiently powerful void shield), and the facility is hardened against airstrikes (but vulnerable to storming and destruction by heavy infantry).

How are IN battles not a protracted affair? You cannot bypass even a single ship and you can fire decoy ships. I am talking the entire engagement from system entry to fighting in the ground. If nothing else the IN can launch mine clusters to make the enemy divert every few hours.

If you want to capture something in the facility? IG airstrikes and artillery are both useless then. The IG could theoretically do it but can they do it better than the SM? No, because the SM are at least 3x better per man and the first few hours of an insertion requires bringing as much force to bear as fast as possible. Not to mention the SM are highly targeted force versus the majority of the IG who honestly are just not great shots. Can you honestly say you believe the IG are better at quick insertion than astartes? Can you even honestly say you believe the IG are better man to man than a SM?

Recap:
The IG are the strongest IoM force in the fluff but the SM are much tougher man per man. Quick insertion only allows a limited number of men so you need your toughest men to go.

If were extending this to space vessels and not lust Legions and Chapters.

It was Gulliemans reforms and the codex astartes that crippled the space Marine fleets to focus primarily on planetary insertion rather than have 'dedicated warships'.

Dorn and the legions would have had no such restrictions.
Sace marine fleets in a Legion would be much more fearsome with a wider array of abilities than in the chapters.

 ansacs wrote:
How are IN battles not a protracted affair? You cannot bypass even a single ship and you can fire decoy ships. I am talking the entire engagement from system entry to fighting in the ground. If nothing else the IN can launch mine clusters to make the enemy divert every few hours.

It's not protracted as compared to a ground war. In every example I've seen of space-borne combat in 40k it's resolved itself quickly, on the scale of a few hours once battle is joined in earnest. Either through one side decisively winning, or through one side slipping their dropships through the line.

There's no real "holding them off to buy time", except when horribly outnumbered, and even then it's usually more just a suicide attack to weaken the superior force as much as possible.

If you want to capture something in the facility? IG airstrikes and artillery are both useless then. The IG could theoretically do it but can they do it better than the SM? No, because the SM are at least 3x better per man and the first few hours of an insertion requires bringing as much force to bear as fast as possible. Not to mention the SM are highly targeted force versus the majority of the IG who honestly are just not great shots. Can you honestly say you believe the IG are better at quick insertion than astartes? Can you even honestly say you believe the IG are better man to man than a SM?

Recap:
The IG are the strongest IoM force in the fluff but the SM are much tougher man per man. Quick insertion only allows a limited number of men so you need your toughest men to go.

I'm not contesting that, only that if marines are taking some position you want intact for yourself, the only way that can happen is if you've got a pile of guard dropping in right behind them to fortify and hold the position against enemy counterattacks.

And if you can get that many Guard in quick enough then, you could probably have managed the whole thing with them, and are much more likely to have Guard units to so deploy than Space Marines.

The Space Marines only really work as a subordinate unit to the Guard, being a limited utility force multiplier like armor or artillery. As they're independent (from both the Guard and, technically speaking, the Imperium) and rather full of themselves, they rarely fill their optimal role.

Just read most of the 1st page but Manchu makes a very good point.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

 ansacs wrote:
How are IN battles not a protracted affair? You cannot bypass even a single ship and you can fire decoy ships. I am talking the entire engagement from system entry to fighting in the ground. If nothing else the IN can launch mine clusters to make the enemy divert every few hours.

It's not protracted as compared to a ground war. In every example I've seen of space-borne combat in 40k it's resolved itself quickly, on the scale of a few hours once battle is joined in earnest. Either through one side decisively winning, or through one side slipping their dropships through the line.

Armageddon and Cadia would disagree with you. Getting dropships through doesn't mean the battle is over.

@Sir Pseudonymous
I would agree that to hold a position you need guard but to take the initial position and expand the position quickly before reinforcements can be brought to the fight nothing beats SM. The IG just do not have the force concentration to do it any where near as well as SM.

The IG can do such a thing with combined arms, but many IG generals don't like using combined arms apparently.

Another man's trash is another man's treasure. Old Gil thinks the legions are not to be trusted because they wield too much might, and so trash. Dorn knows that it's the legions as they are now that saved the still twitching Imperium, and are to be treasured, not cast to the four winds. If it int broke, don't fix it. Don't tar everyone with mistrust because Horus was a

Again this is largely due to separate leaderships. If the legions were still around then the SM would use IG like the disposable ground troops they are.

The fact that they are not used together is sad and says alot of the failings in the IoM command system. (though it is also why there are so few tyrant Badab type cases)

I'd be standing with Dorn. All legions developed their own quirks in structure. The iron hands for instance. So obsessed about self sufficiency that their company level strength equivelant forces still make an act of competing with each other to better themselves. In effect they are all separate mini chapters within a chapter.

Space wolves might as well still be an official legion with their current layout as well. Good luck making them break up their forces. Not to mention the other space marine factions others have listed. The codex astartes just makes marines predictable when taken dogmatically.

"WE STAND UNITED!!!" *Before Horus Heresy*
"WE WERE STUPID, SPLIT THE CHAPTERS AND MAKE PETTY FIGHTS FROM ONE ANOTHER!!" *Legions after*
Yeah, I think I'll have to go with Dorn on this one.

Yes, because the system of concentrated political power in the hands of immature emotional trainwrecks who were willing to betray all of humanity because they were mad at their dad worked SO well during the Horus Heresy.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, because the system of concentrated political power in the hands of immature emotional trainwrecks who were willing to betray all of humanity because they were mad at their dad worked SO well during the Horus Heresy.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, because the system of concentrated political power in the hands of immature emotional trainwrecks who were willing to betray all of humanity because they were mad at their dad worked SO well during the Horus Heresy.

Hey it worked great cause they removed a persecuting biggot who had a major god complex from power. You know Horus just wanted what was best for everyone, he had papa nurgle's support after all. Papa nurgle loves you and just wants what is best for everyone. How could anything he supports be bad for the people?

It was working just fine until Lorgar had a tantrum and threw his toys out the pram and Horus got stabbed by a tainted blade.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
It was working just fine until Lorgar had a tantrum and threw his toys out the pram and Horus got stabbed by a tainted blade.

Translation: It worked great until the people who they were relying upon to be mature, intelligent, and reasonable commanders proved to be immature, unintelligent, and unreasonable.

the problem wasnt the legions

it was the emperor...

seriously he did some stupid stuff...

not telling the legions or primarchs about chaos, or what he was doing with the web way...

letting entire an entire planet of criminals be birthing grounds for a space marine legion....

being all "nooo i cant kill my son till after he killed me"

playing favorites with his sons, cursing some, praising others,

ect ect

Dorn was 100% right

Please, you didn't need the Emperor for the legions to fall apart under the weight of their leaders' incompetence.

Of the twenty primarchs, probably only three or four were mentally healthy-- and less than half were sane on some level.

easysauce wrote:

not telling the legions or primarchs about chaos,

Granted . Though I don't know if it really would have made any difference seeing as we Inquisitors who know about Chaos and yet they fall.

or what he was doing with the web way...

Why the hell should they know?

letting entire an entire planet of criminals be birthing grounds for a space marine legion....

They were alright at the begining, they became crazy later due to Nostramo's leader incapable of handling the planet.

being all "nooo i cant kill my son till after he killed me"

HH series mary rewrite this.

playing favorites with his sons, cursing some, praising others,

Don't be stupid! Even rl parents do stuff like that. Also the Primarchs did some things that needed to be curse and praised.

Anyway this is the only comment I can make. I'm usinng internet at an internet cafe at my aunt's expense due to downloading music for her cellphone. See you on June or July, guys

 Melissia wrote:
Please, you didn't need the Emperor for the legions to fall apart under the weight of their leaders' incompetence.

Of the twenty primarchs, probably only three or four were mentally healthy-- and less than half were sane on some level.

What incompetence do you speak of? They were flawed creations, yes, but incompetent.. I don't think so. Also, you do not need to be sane to be a good commander.

 Melissia wrote:
Please, you didn't need the Emperor for the legions to fall apart under the weight of their leaders' incompetence.

Of the twenty primarchs, probably only three or four were mentally healthy-- and less than half were sane on some level.

actually, you DO need the emperor, he is the one who made the (very flawed) primarchs in the first place.

the legions did not fall under incompetent leadership form primarchs, the primarchs fell due to imcompetent leadership from the emperor,
once a primarch fell, his legion followed,

that the primarchs were flawed to begin with is the emperors fault, as is his assumption that they were immune to chaos and his assumption that warning them about chaos wouldnt help them.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Another man's trash is another man's treasure. Old Gil thinks the legions are not to be trusted because they wield too much might, and so trash. Dorn knows that it's the legions as they are now that saved the still twitching Imperium, and are to be treasured, not cast to the four winds. If it int broke, don't fix it. Don't tar everyone with mistrust because Horus was a

Not that I'm supporting Gulli, but I think the HH was supposed to be the example that the system is broken.

I side with Dorn because, well, he played a far larger role than Gulli and thus I trust his advice more.

HH was the result of the emperors hubris,
not the legions,

had the emperor continued to lead the legions, or to warn them that if they hear voices telling them to rebel, to not listen

then things would have been different,

instead the emperor assumed he was infallable, and his warriors, and primarchs immune to chaos

easysauce wrote:
HH was the result of the emperors hubris,
not the legions

So the ones who actually did the betrayal, massacres, murders-- the epic failures that were the primarchs, bastions of arrogance, selfishness, and self-righteousness-- aren't at fault because someone else made a few mistakes.

Figures.

And these flaws wernt evident in some of the new Chapter Masters?

Gulleman may have crippled to threat to internal in fighting.... but he also crippled the Marines ability to truly throw crushing forces at an enemy.

Small strike teams although they have a place, cannot shatter enemies as easily.

How invaluable would a Legion have been in the war against Gazzy on Armageddon, against Behemouth, Kraken or Leviathan, Guarding the Eye of Terror, Patrolling the Maelstrom.

There are times when you absolutely positively need to hammer your size 15 power armoured boot up the arse of some filthy xenos or heretic, and a Chapter jsut isnt as good at it.