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Might not be 'Because of the Codex' but because of RGs plan.

As i mentioned previously... RG has a plan, and in the aftermath of the heresy he wants to lead, hence the codex and my opinion of it crippling his rivals, in particular Dorn.

Prior to the heresy... who knows what he was thinking. He was drilling his troops to have leadership roles, i have a suspician that he would try and distance Ultramar from the Imperium.

 Eetion wrote:
Might not be 'Because of the Codex' but because of RGs plan.

As i mentioned previously... RG has a plan, and in the aftermath of the heresy he wants to lead, hence the codex and my opinion of it crippling his rivals, in particular Dorn.

Prior to the heresy... who knows what he was thinking. He was drilling his troops to have leadership roles, i have a suspician that he would try and distance Ultramar from the Imperium.

We’ll have to wait for Abnett’s new HH book ‘Unremembered Empire’ to find out I guess.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
He was preparing for the war after the Heresy. One of his men asked why he was doing it and ... okay I just looked it up.

One of his men asked about it and he told his men that his men had to be prepared to be traitors.

"I have a plan, yes, amd it is a dangerous one...when that time comes you will be called traitors...I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium" Rules of Engagment found in the book "Age of Darkness"

So were in the story does it say again he want to kill the salamanders? :3

I too have also read Rules of Engagement and I don’t see were in the book he says they might have to fight other marines because of the codex.

I just quoted the section. He is talking about the codex and he is commenting that his men need to be prepared to fight the loyal warriors of the Imperium. It is on the last page of the story if you want to read it yourself. Also I didnt mean to say he wanted to fight them. Just that he was preparing his men to kill Salamanders as we see in the training exercise before the last one.


That that IS what happens. Remember after the Heresy the Ultarmarines and the Imperial Fist almost go to war with each other for that very issue. I believe Imperial Navel units loyal to the UM even engage Navy units loyal to the IF at one point in time. The reason war is avoided is because Dorn stands up and says that he relents his authority to Guilliman.

 Galdos wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
He was preparing for the war after the Heresy. One of his men asked why he was doing it and ... okay I just looked it up.

One of his men asked about it and he told his men that his men had to be prepared to be traitors.

"I have a plan, yes, amd it is a dangerous one...when that time comes you will be called traitors...I can see no hope in the times ahead for the Imperium" Rules of Engagment found in the book "Age of Darkness"

So were in the story does it say again he want to kill the salamanders? :3

I too have also read Rules of Engagement and I don’t see were in the book he says they might have to fight other marines because of the codex.

I just quoted the section. He is talking about the codex and he is commenting that his men need to be prepared to fight the loyal warriors of the Imperium. It is on the last page of the story if you want to read it yourself. Also I didnt mean to say he wanted to fight them. Just that he was preparing his men to kill Salamanders as we see in the training exercise before the last one.

You are probably right about that. It’s been awhile since the last time I read that story anyway.

 Galdos wrote:
That that IS what happens. Remember after the Heresy the Ultarmarines and the Imperial Fist almost go to war with each other for that very issue. I believe Imperial Navel units loyal to the UM even engage Navy units loyal to the IF at one point in time. The reason war is avoided is because Dorn stands up and says that he relents his authority to Guilliman.

Yeah, in the end Dorn opted to follow common sense. I knew you had it in ya boy!

I had to pull the book out to remember. I didnt care much for the story so I didnt remember it all that well

Far be it for I to defend a marine, never mind a primarch, buuuut...

... Mr. Rowboat looks like, in that fluff instance cited, he is merely preparing for the worst, not that he WANTS to fight the other marines, but that he believes that it might happen so they need to be ready-- just in case. It's standard military planning.

Yet in knf we see a sergeant bring censured for his theories.

Dorn was the better man in that he stood down rather than face another civil war. It says more about RG that he didn't.

oh great. Choose between the most boring and the most useless. what a choice. i guess dorn. at least he does not follow a book for all strategies to use in war, seems like a calmer more peaceful place.

honestly i would prefer corax. Strike and fade, be a constant harasser.

 Eetion wrote:
Yet in knf we see a sergeant bring censured for his theories.

Dorn was the better man in that he stood down rather than face another civil war. It says more about RG that he didn't.

But still, dude changed his mind completely...I'mean why and how ? How can you relent and change your mind completely ? Some heavy emo stuff IMHO....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Yet in knf we see a sergeant bring censured for his theories.

Dorn was the better man in that he stood down rather than face another civil war. It says more about RG that he didn't.

But still, dude changed his mind completely...I'mean why and how ? How can you relent and change your mind completely ? Some heavy emo stuff IMHO....

It’s crystal clear Marko. Dorn just could not compete with the genius of Guilliman, and had to bow out of their little scuffle.

That’s just how the universe works. No one beats Guilliman’s writing pen of goodness and sweet glory, PERIOD.

^ Ty for that ....I'm going to whip myself now (you know, purging through pain and all that) and repent OFC....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Yet in knf we see a sergeant bring censured for his theories.

Dorn was the better man in that he stood down rather than face another civil war. It says more about RG that he didn't.

But still, dude changed his mind completely...I'mean why and how ? How can you relent and change your mind completely ? Some heavy emo stuff IMHO....

Because Rogal Dorn is an unstable, psychotic psychopath of a man.

Which is why I would follow him, as opposed to Guilliman.

But let's say he was all that...I'm still waiting for BL to explain some things....

Anti codex ****then void***** silver medal in following codex, oooo hey Templars are anti codex you know....

This had to be something with Dorn having a major paranoid - schizophrenia chops or maybe even a dual personality disorder...Poor dude...

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ Ty for that ....I'm going to whip myself now (you know, purging through pain and all that) and repent OFC....

Yes Marko... Whip it good. i'll just sit outside your window and watch you do it

And Dorn will also be watching you do it. You know, for all the BDSM and stuff.

 Melissia wrote:
Far be it for I to defend a marine, never mind a primarch, buuuut...

... Mr. Rowboat looks like, in that fluff instance cited, he is merely preparing for the worst, not that he WANTS to fight the other marines, but that he believes that it might happen so they need to be ready-- just in case. It's standard military planning.

That is true. Everything about what you said is true except that last part.

It is never standard military planning to plan for a military take over of your own government and installing your General as the new leader of the country.

What he pretty much does is (ill use the American Civil War for example) General Grant, the commander of the Western armies of the Union, is not only training his men to fight the Confederacy, but also how to fight and kill the Union armies in the East so if needed, he can march on Washington, kill his fellow Union soldiers, and name himself the new President of a new nation with a new name.

 Galdos wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Far be it for I to defend a marine, never mind a primarch, buuuut...

... Mr. Rowboat looks like, in that fluff instance cited, he is merely preparing for the worst, not that he WANTS to fight the other marines, but that he believes that it might happen so they need to be ready-- just in case. It's standard military planning.

That is true. Everything about what you said is true except that last part.

It is never standard military planning to plan for a military take over of your own government and installing your General as the new leader of the country.

What he pretty much does is (ill use the American Civil War for example) General Grant, the commander of the Western armies of the Union, is not only training his men to fight the Confederacy, but also how to fight and kill the Union armies in the East so if needed, he can march on Washington, kill his fellow Union soldiers, and name himself the new President of a new nation with a new name.

There is something else to it than just military planning, for sure.
But Rules of Engagement only gave us a very vague and incomplete impression of what Gulliman has in store for the imperium. So hold your guns until Abnett’s new HH book is out.

It kinda plays to the facts of Guilliman's absolute control freak tendencies, that he would prepare for every eventuality, including the potential conflict with other primarchs ideas on how to reorganize the imperium after the HH.

And taking that into mind, he would weigh the know facts and strengths of his enemies as well as allies (seeing as to not so long ago all the primarchs were buddies, and that sundering has led to the most bloody conflict in human history.)

And seeing that the almost death? of the emperor has left him (the Emp ) completely out of the loop for any ability to reign in his remaining primarchs bickering or infighting.

And adding the fact that Dorn has fought a cataclysmic conflict, where his emperor has fallen to the point of being interred in a life support system (and is likely blaming himself for every misstep and mistake)

So..taking all this in, ole Guilliman, would be kinda silly not to plan for the potential of yet another brother primarch going rogue..since it has happened more than a few times in recent history.

I think ole big blue was planning for the future, but prepared for the short term, is it kind of a dickish thing to do..sure, but warfare and its aftermath is not a walk in the park.

After the events of the HH, I think the trust of each primarch in his fellows was shaken to its core, even if they would not admit it aloud.

just my interpretation at any rate.

Um guys. The story that I was talking about occurs BEFORE the Battle of Terra.


As in the Emperor is still a okay.


He is talking about seizing control for himself even if the loyalist win. And he does. It is only be Dorn refused to fire on fellow loyalist did a second civil war occur.


He was preparing for anything. His plans still meant treason. He even told his men that HE would be the renegade, not Dorn/Vulkan/etc.

In which case , its yet another reason to never again trust a primarch with any level of authority, as it seems even the supposed best of them will have treason at his heart, if he feels its best.

I think I liked it better when the HH was just mythology of 40k and not all the detail they are slathering on it now.

I've got a question that I've never understood. Maybe ya'll can explain it. I don't understand how the chapters are less effective than the legions. There were still the same number of marines, I don't understand why spreading them out made them less effective. According to what we know about the expansion of the Imperium the legions would often split into smaller fleets to conquer planets, how is this different than a chapter? Also, it seems that at this point in the Imperium the chapters are constantly playing defense, how would having legions make the number of enemies the Imperium has and how often they attack any different? I guess I just don't think there would be any difference if the marines were still legions.

Darthslowe wrote:
I've got a question that I've never understood. Maybe ya'll can explain it. I don't understand how the chapters are less effective than the legions. There were still the same number of marines, I don't understand why spreading them out made them less effective. According to what we know about the expansion of the Imperium the legions would often split into smaller fleets to conquer planets, how is this different than a chapter? Also, it seems that at this point in the Imperium the chapters are constantly playing defense, how would having legions make the number of enemies the Imperium has and how often they attack any different? I guess I just don't think there would be any difference if the marines were still legions.

It is all about unity of command. Ill use my earlier example again.

A legion is like the US Army, Navy, Marines, rolled into one force, that being the US Military.

However the Imperium when defended by chapters is more like The US Army, Navy, Marines, and Brit Army, Navy, Marines, and France Army, Navy, Marines, and Germany Army, Navy, Marines, all rolled into one force, the Allied High Command.

What is the problem? organization. The US wants the US general calling the shots while the US does the spear head while the French want a French General with the French as a spearhead etc etc... And then the US doesnt want to listen to the French General and the French wont listen to a US general etc etc...

You see the issue? Legions are easier to work with and that means more effective at defense

I think the codex astartes has worked. But i still believe that with better screening and indoctrination we could have more pious space marines able to resist the temptations of the warp. The dark angels undergo very intense screening and monitoring to ensure they are pure. Following this premise i believe it is possble to have out legions once more. As many seem to focus on the chaos space marine threat, all I might say is that; this will be a ever present threat in the 40k universe and until there is a way to eradicate the existing chaos space marines..... Call it simple minded but legions of marines should be able to do this task.
I don't like to think that we're following in the footsteps of the eldars empire....
Long live the legions!!!

The codex astartes is clearly out dated. Think about it when it was written they never seen a necron, or tau or tyranid. Before you argue with that, nids weren't even in the universe yet, necrons haven't awakened yet. Would you listen to a book on how to fight in the modern world, if the book only covered say.. confederate rebels and native Americans?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
He didn't say it like that.

But he did. When asked why he was leaving, he refused to tell them and told them to worry about the Great Crusade.

The way you phrased it is what I mean that he didn't say it like that. And he was correct. They had the GC to worry about and finish.

Angron and Curze were indeed not salvageable at that point, though in the case of Angron, it required the Emperor doing more dumbshit to make his betrayal possible, but we'll get into that at another time. And in the case of Curze, it is mostly Fulgrim being two-faced and Dorn being a frothing psychopath that pushed him to betray, though in his case, it might indeed have always been inevitable. As for Mortarion, that wasn't the only reason. Mortarion, at the end of the day, felt more loyal to Horus, than he did the Emperor. Horus' betrayal made Mortarion's possible. Oh, and Emperor leaving further cemented in Angron's mind that he was a coward, who relied on others to shed the blood he was not willing to.

As I said, Angron already hated the Emp, the Emp leaving or not is irrelevant. Also, what the hell is Angron thinking? The Emp fought the crusade for a long time before he left cause he had other stuff to do like how Roman emperors or such who fought on the front of the wars would leave cause they have other stuff to do.

Horus fell cause of Chaos manipulation and an apparent lust for power.

Mortarion fell cause he resented the Emp and thus was susceptible

.

What of Fulgrim? The Emperor leaving them did indeed play a part in his betrayal, as did admittedly a talking sword, lol. And like before, it was Horus who had to convince him, before that he did not consider it, even with the talking sword.

I truly have no idea what the hell is going on with Fulgrim.

Magnus? Wasn't really hurt by daddy leaving, but telling him of the project he was integral to would have been a big help towards saving the Webway in future events.

Nope. If Magnus had simply obeyed the Emp's orders to stop his sorcery. The events of the Webway breaking would not needed to have happened.

Perturabo, eh, I haven't read Angel Exterminatus, but prior to that he betrayed the Imperium because he was a sinister sociopath who sort of hated everyone. Though, like Mortarion, Horus' betrayal did make Perturabo's possible.

Perturabo's fall is cause of resentment hat was possibly inflamed by Horus and then his killing of his planet.

So even if Horus was the most affected by daddy leaving without telling why (Though I'd argue the Emperor not telling Magnus eventually proved to be the most dire mistake), since so many of the traitors required Horus to make their betrayals possible, it still contributed to the Heresy.

I disagree with the bold. Also, I'm talking about the leaving actually making them rebel which is only for Horus. The rest was cause of other reasons. The Emp leaving was simply giving the traitors the opportunity they needed to recruit more members.

Because other than the Emperor and maybe Malcador, the Primarchs are the highest-ranking, and most important people in the Imperium.

So? I still don't see why they need to know.

Why is it restricted though? Stop dancing around my question. Why shouldn't the Emperor have told them?

The Primarchs were lightyears away.

How would they interfere with the project? Only Magnus could manage that. By blowing a hole in it, lol.

Grouping these two quotes together.

I'm not dancing anything. I'm simply posting the point of why does he need to tell them.

The Primarchs being lightyears away is good thing why not to tell them cause they are no longer under his direct watch. They could be doing anything when he's not looking like tell the Cabal about his plans or maybe the info accidentally gets leaked out and his found out by Eldar who will do anything they can to destroy the Webway project.

So what you're saying is that trusting potential traitors with the most powerful military force in the galaxy is fine, but trusting them with the knowledge that the Emperor was trying to improve space travel would be too risky?

Yes. Just look at the Alpha legion for an example of why.

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
The codex astartes is clearly out dated. Think about it when it was written they never seen a necron, or tau or tyranid. Before you argue with that, nids weren't even in the universe yet, necrons haven't awakened yet. Would you listen to a book on how to fight in the modern world, if the book only covered say.. confederate rebels and native Americans?

Can you find any examples of the codex being outdated in the fluff?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
The codex astartes is clearly out dated. Think about it when it was written they never seen a necron, or tau or tyranid. Before you argue with that, nids weren't even in the universe yet, necrons haven't awakened yet. Would you listen to a book on how to fight in the modern world, if the book only covered say.. confederate rebels and native Americans?

Can you find any examples of the codex being outdated in the fluff?

Yeah, when Calgar had to go above the Codex as a result of the Tyranid onslaught.

I do not believe the Codex is what has 'created 10,000 years of less revolt' moreso than The Imperium is becoming lesser and lesser of a threat in the overall scope of galactic affairs.

Add to the fact that, simply speaking, trying to use the same tactic twice on an enemy is dooming yourself to failure. Open revolt isn't what will weaken the Imperium, it would just solidify Man's resolve.

The Tyranids and Necrons looming on the horizon are more threatening than the severely weakened Imperium of Man...so why waste Chaos Marines against the Imperium when more and more leave their side without 'open revolt'?

IMO, the failing of the Imperium has already begun with a strategy unlike one that has failed in the past.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I do not believe the Codex is what has 'created 10,000 years of less revolt' moreso than The Imperium is becoming lesser and lesser of a threat in the overall scope of galactic affairs.

Add to the fact that, simply speaking, trying to use the same tactic twice on an enemy is dooming yourself to failure. Open revolt isn't what will weaken the Imperium, it would just solidify Man's resolve.

The Tyranids and Necrons looming on the horizon are more threatening than the severely weakened Imperium of Man...so why waste Chaos Marines against the Imperium when more and more leave their side without 'open revolt'?

IMO, the failing of the Imperium has already begun with a strategy unlike one that has failed in the past.

The Imperium still rules the galaxy however. The main threats to the galaxy are the Nids, Necrons and Chaos(cause if Chaos wins, everyone can kiss themselves goodbye).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
The codex astartes is clearly out dated. Think about it when it was written they never seen a necron, or tau or tyranid. Before you argue with that, nids weren't even in the universe yet, necrons haven't awakened yet. Would you listen to a book on how to fight in the modern world, if the book only covered say.. confederate rebels and native Americans?

Can you find any examples of the codex being outdated in the fluff?

Yeah, when Calgar had to go above the Codex as a result of the Tyranid onslaught.

And after the tyranids had been dealt with, what happened then with codex?
Something happened to it, can you tell me what it was?

Yes disagreement between the tyrranic warveterans wanting ammendments and others wanting it to stay 'pure'.

To this day the tyrranic war veterans remains a point of contention.

Its basicly a guide, but somewhere along the way that has been lost.

Trhe legions properly supervised and monitored would be a much more effective force,
Knowledge of chaos, oversight by chaplains, librarians and apothecaries to ensure pure and effective screening, all now utilised after the Legions.
The question is is it these screening patterns or the codex that is mainly responsible for the reduction in traitors.