I put mine behind line of sight blocking terrain and boost them. Can't shoot them if you can't see them.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Grotesques taken for anti Wave Serpent duty isn't that great. A squad of Wyches will wreck one, why overkill the hell out of it with Urien Grots... I mean if you only take 1 Raider of Grots it's getting nuked their turn 1 and it's cargo has to run the rest of the way or get shot in the open and it could have been 2 squads of Wyches, if you take 3 squads, you could have taken like 5-6 Wyches. We will only win by target saturation not by putting overkill units in Raider.

"They'll get shot out of their Raider turn 1" seems to be the go-to argument against Grotesques. It just doesn't shake out that way for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. But I consistently--across many games--get good results from the grotesques.

Yet that quite clearly was not my main argument. I said that it does the job against Wave Serpents just as well or worse than 5 Wyches for a much cheaper cost. I didn't even say the unit is bad, just that it's not worth listing as a way to deal with Wave Serpents when the option of Wyches is so more much effecient.

Also, I have no idea why your opponents would be failing to kill a Raider with Grots in it before they get to assault. Are they playing an army of Khorne Bezerkers or something. There is very few units that can't shoot down a Raider lol.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Grotesques taken for anti Wave Serpent duty isn't that great. A squad of Wyches will wreck one, why overkill the hell out of it with Urien Grots... I mean if you only take 1 Raider of Grots it's getting nuked their turn 1 and it's cargo has to run the rest of the way or get shot in the open and it could have been 2 squads of Wyches, if you take 3 squads, you could have taken like 5-6 Wyches. We will only win by target saturation not by putting overkill units in Raider.

"They'll get shot out of their Raider turn 1" seems to be the go-to argument against Grotesques. It just doesn't shake out that way for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. But I consistently--across many games--get good results from the grotesques.

Yet that quite clearly was not my main argument. I said that it does the job against Wave Serpents just as well or worse than 5 Wyches for a much cheaper cost. I didn't even say the unit is bad, just that it's not worth listing as a way to deal with Wave Serpents when the option of Wyches is so more much effecient.

Also, I have no idea why your opponents would be failing to kill a Raider with Grots in it before they get to assault. Are they playing an army of Khorne Bezerkers or something. There is very few units that can't shoot down a Raider lol.

Wasn't singling you out, bro. Sorry if you thought I was. Just talking in general.

Do you think that two units of wyches would be more survivable (or as survivable) as a single unit of Grotesques? I haven't crunched the math, to be honest, but my initial impression would be that four Frankensteins would probably weather shooting better than 10 wyches would.

And I find that Night Shields, Flicker Fields, and competent deployment make it pretty simple to get a unit of Grots into CC range (admittedly, possibly losing their Raider on the last turn, but not getting shot out way down the board).

To change the subject slightly, are people holding off expanding their armies, given the possibility of a new codex before the end of the year? I don't think I'm going to pick up new units at this point.

I've been preparing to expand my little Kabal, but the temporary lack of funds + the rumours of a new Codex mean I'm going to wait a bit with this.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Grotesques taken for anti Wave Serpent duty isn't that great. A squad of Wyches will wreck one, why overkill the hell out of it with Urien Grots... I mean if you only take 1 Raider of Grots it's getting nuked their turn 1 and it's cargo has to run the rest of the way or get shot in the open and it could have been 2 squads of Wyches, if you take 3 squads, you could have taken like 5-6 Wyches. We will only win by target saturation not by putting overkill units in Raider.

"They'll get shot out of their Raider turn 1" seems to be the go-to argument against Grotesques. It just doesn't shake out that way for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. But I consistently--across many games--get good results from the grotesques.

Yet that quite clearly was not my main argument. I said that it does the job against Wave Serpents just as well or worse than 5 Wyches for a much cheaper cost. I didn't even say the unit is bad, just that it's not worth listing as a way to deal with Wave Serpents when the option of Wyches is so more much effecient.

Also, I have no idea why your opponents would be failing to kill a Raider with Grots in it before they get to assault. Are they playing an army of Khorne Bezerkers or something. There is very few units that can't shoot down a Raider lol.

Wasn't singling you out, bro. Sorry if you thought I was. Just talking in general.

Do you think that two units of wyches would be more survivable (or as survivable) as a single unit of Grotesques? I haven't crunched the math, to be honest, but my initial impression would be that four Frankensteins would probably weather shooting better than 10 wyches would.

And I find that Night Shields, Flicker Fields, and competent deployment make it pretty simple to get a unit of Grots into CC range (admittedly, possibly losing their Raider on the last turn, but not getting shot out way down the board).

To change the subject slightly, are people holding off expanding their armies, given the possibility of a new codex before the end of the year? I don't think I'm going to pick up new units at this point.

Honestly I usually make purchases of as much used good condition stuff as I can before an update. Once the new book piques interests prices hike and army deals fall off a cliff. The one exception is if the new book ruins the army completely. But honestly we are at such a low end right now I feel its hard to fall lower, i figure worst case is a sideways shift like orks got. I like the army enough to play even if they don't get much. I really just want more access to special weapons and my archon to get a bike/board option.

I've got so many of most things that expansion just isn't that big a deal. Always looking for more Hellions, of course, but most selections in the codex I couldn't field more of outside an Apoc game anyway.

I personally think two Wyche squads for killing Wave Serps are much more survivable than 1 pack of Grots in a Raider. You need only 1 squad to make into range to kill the serpent either way, so the main difference is the survivability of 1 transport to 2. Nothing else relative.

However outside of combat I imagine the Grots are more survivable for all purpose use. That wasn't my point at all, strictly that they are a terrible anti-waveserpentlist unit because they are practically wasted points for what could have been many more squads of Wyches, who hit just as hard more reliably.

That being said, I don't think they are great at all except in Deepstrike/WWP lists where they can rely on positioning not to feth them, and have the durability to live the extra turn. Deploying them on your side of the board is a bad idea. Fact is, any that lose their transports before they get in position are unlikely to make their sizable cost back. Like it or not, and whether it happens to you often, most competitive lists are not only capable but can quite easily knock out a Raider turn 1, if not multiple. This is sort of a given for us, it's just the nature of the army that not all transports are going to do the job, hence why taking a couple of beefy units in Raiders just reveals even more of our Achilles heel and makes those lost transports hurt all the more.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That being said, I don't think they are great at all except in Deepstrike/WWP lists

Honestly, I think Deep Strike lists are the best bet for the army at this point. Heavily staffed fortifications worked pretty well for me in the twilight of 6th ed, but 7th was a little unkind to them, so I haven't really been using them as extensively (and thus can't really attest to how great they are/aren't).

I remain convinced that WWP lists are also viable options, although I really haven't managed to produce any significant results myself.

At this point, I really see three viable types of lists. The first is the Deep Strike list, the WWP list, and the beasts-bikes-n-'boards list. Given the change to the rules regarding transports, I don't have the same faith as I once did in Venomspam or non-Deep Striking Raider Rush.

I think 3 squads of Grots with Urien upgrade, deepstriking for positioning or screaming out of the Webway could work well. No matter what happens they are gonna tear it up subsequent turns. But of course this relies on DSing your whole army or else you are just watering down the threat.

I think GEQ blobs would ruin your day but I think a Razorwing or two, unloading 4 monoscythe missiles that same turn they arrive would alleviate the threat.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Given the change to the rules regarding transports

What change is that?

The flamer thing? The only time we should be within 8" is when we're assaulting or holding an objective. It's bummer, but it's usually not so bad.
The leadership test for shaken results is a buff from before, where there was no test and everyone failed.

So, I'm just not sure they're less reliable than before.

20" for Torrent. Still not all that relevant. Doesn't help though.

Yeah I have to say I PERSONALLY disagree with jimsolos little overview there, but then again what works best is different for everyone. It sounds like he just likes Deepstrike. Massed Venoms is still fine if it's carrying what you need, deepstriking them can hurt more than it helps for a lot of lists. Massed Wyches for starters.

Ohh yeah torrent. It doesn't really hurt Venom spam toooo much, so long as you keep them 8" from each other as well.

Raiders are actually perfect for torrent flamers actually, because the template has to be over as much of the target as possible, so the template would have to go virtually point to point of the Raider and hit nothing else.

 SHUPPET wrote:
It sounds like he just likes Deepstrike.

Ain't no secret!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
The leadership test for shaken results is a buff from before, where there was no test and everyone failed.

Except that now you have to test or Snap Fire in the event of Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized results as well. (Unless I'm misunderstanding.) While for haywyches, I grant that's not going to be a game breaker, but that could put some serious hurt on blasterborn.

And I think the flamer thing is a big deal, personally. Last edition, a single squad of Space Marines could take down a Venom with no problem. Now, they can quite easily take down a Venom AND kill every occupant with a single volley. If you don't see any templates in your local metas, then I suppose it may not appear like a very big game changer. Around here, marines in Drop Pods, Farsight Enclaves, and Mechvet lists are everywhere you look, and they're all packing flamers out the wazoo.

Venomspam might very well still be viable, but I think it definitely took some hits to its awesomeness in the edition change.

I DO think some bike riding Craftworld Eldar are in my future though.

Potential newb question. How does a unit of Wyches take down a Wave Serpent? I was under the impression that you could only use 1 grenade (I presume the plan was to use haywire grenades) per turn now in 7th...

Throw 1 grenade.
Assault (if you're throwing, you're in assault range).

On average, 5 Wychs, with total 6 grenades (thrown + 5CC) will on avereage, result in 4 hits, of which 3 will be glances, and one will be a pen, glance, or nothing.

That's enough to easily take out just about any vehicle going.

 Ovion wrote:
Throw 1 grenade.
Assault (if you're throwing, you're in assault range).

On average, 5 Wychs, with total 6 grenades (thrown + 5CC) will on avereage, result in 4 hits, of which 3 will be glances, and one will be a pen, glance, or nothing.

That's enough to easily take out just about any vehicle going.

Oh right. I thought in 7th you could only throw 1 grenade per unit in assault? (there was this big discussion in YMDC)

one can be throw per unit. All can use them in melee.

When fighting MCs or Vehicles in CC, Infantry models may replace their CC attacks with a single Grenade attack per model. They function like normal melee attacks, but with the Grenade's profile.

This is a list I've come up with after some research and deliberation:

Combined Arms Detachment – Kabal of the Black Heart (Dark Eldar)

HQ:
1 Baron Sathonyx, 105 pts.

Troops:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 100 pts. (Splinter Cannon)
10x Kabalite Warriors, 100 pts. (Splinter Cannon)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Raider, 80 pts. (Splinter Racks, Night Shields)
1 Raider, 80 pts. (Splinter Racks, Night Shields)

Fast Attack:
4x Beastmasters, 228 pts. (10x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks)
6x Reavers, 172 pts. (2x Cluster Caltrops)

Heavy Support:
1 Ravager, 125 pts. (Flickerfield, Night Shields)
1 Ravager, 125 pts. (Flickerfield, Night Shields)
1 Razorwing Jetfighter, 175 pts. (Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield, Night Shields)

Allied Detachment – (Eldar)
HQ:
1 Jetseer, 170 pts. (Shard of Anaris, the Spirit Stone of Anath’lan)

Troops:
5x Dire Avengers, 65 pts.
5x Dire Avengers, 65 pts.

Dedicated Transport:
1 Wave Serpent, 130 pts. (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon)
1 Wave Serpent, 130 pts. (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon)

Total: 1850/1850 pts.

Green font represents the models I actually possess atm.

Some TL Poison shots, 10 Dark Lances (2 of 'em with optional Skyfire), 4 Monoscythe Missiles, a moderate Beast Pack unit with H&R, Assault and Defence grenades, Fearless, Mastery Level 3 psychic protection and possibly Shrouding and/or Invisibility, and last, but definitely not least, 2 good ol' Wave Serpents with small cargo.

Do you think it would classify as a competitive TAC army?

I recently played a game against my friends gk's with a wwp list, and it performed pretty good. My list was:

2 haemies w/ wwp

2x4 incubi in venoms

2x5 haywyches in venoms

2x10 wracks w/ 2 liquifiers in raiders

2x20 kabals w/ 2 sc's

2 talos' w/ liquifiers

The talos' and kabals came out of the wwp. Overall it was a really fun list to play, The talos' were slightly underwhelming, other than wrecking a storm raven and causing a couple wounds to some pallies, they didn't do a whole lot. I'm thinking next time I do it I'll go more out with the kabal's and take 4-6 blob squads, for throwing buckets of dice if nothing else

 SarisKhan wrote:
This is a list I've come up with after some research and deliberation:

Combined Arms Detachment – Kabal of the Black Heart (Dark Eldar)

HQ:
1 Baron Sathonyx, 105 pts.

Troops:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 100 pts. (Splinter Cannon)
10x Kabalite Warriors, 100 pts. (Splinter Cannon)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Raider, 80 pts. (Splinter Racks, Night Shields)
1 Raider, 80 pts. (Splinter Racks, Night Shields)

Fast Attack:
4x Beastmasters, 228 pts. (10x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks)
6x Reavers, 172 pts. (2x Cluster Caltrops)

Heavy Support:
1 Ravager, 125 pts. (Flickerfield, Night Shields)
1 Ravager, 125 pts. (Flickerfield, Night Shields)
1 Razorwing Jetfighter, 175 pts. (Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield, Night Shields)

Allied Detachment – (Eldar)
HQ:
1 Jetseer, 170 pts. (Shard of Anaris, the Spirit Stone of Anath’lan)

Troops:
5x Dire Avengers, 65 pts.
5x Dire Avengers, 65 pts.

Dedicated Transport:
1 Wave Serpent, 130 pts. (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon)
1 Wave Serpent, 130 pts. (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon)

Total: 1850/1850 pts.

Green font represents the models I actually possess atm.

Some TL Poison shots, 10 Dark Lances (2 of 'em with optional Skyfire), 4 Monoscythe Missiles, a moderate Beast Pack unit with H&R, Assault and Defence grenades, Fearless, Mastery Level 3 psychic protection and possibly Shrouding and/or Invisibility, and last, but definitely not least, 2 good ol' Wave Serpents with small cargo.

Do you think it would classify as a competitive TAC army?

Would do fairly well I think although personally I'd rather take a crimson hunter than a razorwing.

Shingen wrote:
Would do fairly well I think although personally I'd rather take a crimson hunter than a razorwing.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that, but Razorwing is more versatile. Also, I personally like the model more

Now that we have access to C:tA allies (although some places do not allow it for tournaments)

I a list type I thought would do very well for Dark Eldar would be necron allies instead of eldar.

With an allied detachment that has Imotekh, warriors+cryptek with solar pulse, anni barge.

Would give you some possible free lightning hits, and with access to multiple detachments/formations and the return of MSU could pay off. Also you would get nightfighting for 2+ turns, with all the dark eldar having night vision wouldnt be so bad.

Already thought of that one dude, its on the first page

Lol totally missed it

I have a few more tactics I have been testing recently. Will post them up later.

Adding a couple of tactical updates now.

Was just wondering what are peoples view on the Dias of Destruction? Of course, i am not talking super competitively, but in my Meta i have been losing quite often to an Eldar player. To put it simply, it's because of his 2 Wave Serpents. I have the same problem with Tesla and Tau mass missiles, but they all have something in common. It's all strength 7 and aside from the odd Wraith cannon it seems to me in my Meta that is the most common strength, so i was thinking, what the heck, lets try Vect!

Vect in the Dias with 8 Haywire Wyches + Hek and a Shard net (For Wraithknight hunting) comes in at just under 600pts. What you have to do is compare the Dias to a Land Raider, Av 13 vs AV 14 but the AV 13 can jink, so similar survivability. Add that to Vects habit to murderize any 3+ save squad in the game by himself and we have a usable, if expensive unit. Vs mass strength 7, would this be an option?

How important is objective secure to us? Trueborns seem better than warriors because they can bring mass special weapons. Blood brides may be on par with wyches if you use wyches mostly as a stall unit, but blood brides with a syren can do a lot of damage.

 lambsandlions wrote:
How important is objective secure to us? Trueborns seem better than warriors because they can bring mass special weapons. Blood brides may be on par with wyches if you use wyches mostly as a stall unit, but blood brides with a syren can do a lot of damage.

objective secured is awesome

also wyches are there to take hits in combat if you actually are bothering with combat. Otherwise they are there for their grenades and blood brides dont throw grenades any better than wyches.

Here's a nice little combo I plan to use this weekend for my Dark Eldar/Eldar allies.

1. Pick out the biggest, scariest unit(s), likely terminators, hopefully with a warlord in them. Have a warlock cast terrify on them (-3 LD).

2. Follow up with a haemonculus popping an archangel of pain from a venom. Ensure it's close enough to make a difference. There's a good chance said termies will fail on a 7, now they're at WS1, I1.

3. Bring in the warp spiders to monofilament them at S7 thanks to their low initiative, 6's resolved at AP1. Even better if you're using prescience or guide.

Yeah, I know it's not uber reliable -- but it's a total trollface move.

 Exergy wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
How important is objective secure to us? Trueborns seem better than warriors because they can bring mass special weapons. Blood brides may be on par with wyches if you use wyches mostly as a stall unit, but blood brides with a syren can do a lot of damage.

objective secured is awesome

also wyches are there to take hits in combat if you actually are bothering with combat. Otherwise they are there for their grenades and blood brides dont throw grenades any better than wyches.

Bloodbrides throw a grenade at 15 points cheaper than a wych does.
Wychers is 60 points for 5 with grenades.
Bloodbrides are 45 points for 3 with grenades.

If you're going unbound, I'd go with Bloodbrides.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
How important is objective secure to us? Trueborns seem better than warriors because they can bring mass special weapons. Blood brides may be on par with wyches if you use wyches mostly as a stall unit, but blood brides with a syren can do a lot of damage.

objective secured is awesome

also wyches are there to take hits in combat if you actually are bothering with combat. Otherwise they are there for their grenades and blood brides dont throw grenades any better than wyches.

Bloodbrides throw a grenade at 15 points cheaper than a wych does.
Wychers is 60 points for 5 with grenades.
Bloodbrides are 45 points for 3 with grenades.

If you're going unbound, I'd go with Bloodbrides.

I was thinking of throwing them in combat, or well placing them at the tracks of a tank and running away. 5 wyches get 5 grenades. 3 bloodbrides get 3 grenades

Except, that's 45pts for 3 grenades + 1 thrown, for an average of 2HP damage. (22.5pts per pt of damage)

Vs 60pts for 5 grenades + 1 thrown for an average of 3.2HP damage. (18.75pts per pt of damage)

Once you throw in more wounds, etc to live longer, it's just no contest really.

Especially being the reason Wyches are so good at anti tank is for that 60pts you can kill basically any non-superheavy in one turn.
The Bloodbrides would need 2, and wouldn't survive the first.

Best bet is a hekatrix with a blast pistol so you can hit it twice on the way in. More points again however.

 Ovion wrote:
Except, that's 45pts for 3 grenades + 1 thrown, for an average of 2HP damage. (22.5pts per pt of damage)

Vs 60pts for 5 grenades + 1 thrown for an average of 3.2HP damage. (18.75pts per pt of damage)

Once you throw in more wounds, etc to live longer, it's just no contest really.

Especially being the reason Wyches are so good at anti tank is for that 60pts you can kill basically any non-superheavy in one turn.
The Bloodbrides would need 2, and wouldn't survive the first.

Generally I see 5 wyches die anytime anything fires at them.
If unbound (which is where I say use them) you're getting 3 units of wyches or 4 units of bloodbrides.
Since I'm assuming that the opponent will be shooting at me, and that T3 6+ is really easy to kill, having more units is better.

But you are right, if you can magically place 5 wyches unmolested in base to base with any non-superheavy, it's over.

-Matt

I've been considering taking a couple of Haywire Wyches squads, but in the end I think that sticking to good ol' Kabbies will work out better for me.

Hey guys,

New to 7th.

Any one have any solid attempts with Necron allies?

Any good lists with DE paired with them?

Possibly add a detatchment with three fliers?

Necrons have very interesting applications as allies in quite a few armies. The obviousness of forcing Night fight as one such synergy for Dark Eldar should not be overlooked (3+ Jink as you barrel into the enemy? Yes please!) as long as you dont mind them getting the hairy eyeball from their so called allies.

I'm not losing my DE because my cover save is 4+ instead of 3+. I'm losing my DE because I'm getting hit with a lot of Ignore Cover shots.

So far, my best luck has been with the addition of a few bunkers. AV14 for 55 points is a pretty good deal. You're immune to Grav, and I'd give up the bunker to melta shots to have an assaultable enemy land that close.

even that does not stop flickerfields. Look. they're raiders. Surely you cant ask for more than their 3 HP can provide? But they are incredibly flexible when armed with Disintegrator cannons and then loaded with units that are anti tank. Oh yeah. Definitely.

All iM saying is in relation to using the Solar Pulse the round you wanna jail break..

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Was just wondering what are peoples view on the Dias of Destruction? Of course, i am not talking super competitively, but in my Meta i have been losing quite often to an Eldar player. To put it simply, it's because of his 2 Wave Serpents. I have the same problem with Tesla and Tau mass missiles, but they all have something in common. It's all strength 7 and aside from the odd Wraith cannon it seems to me in my Meta that is the most common strength, so i was thinking, what the heck, lets try Vect!

Vect in the Dias with 8 Haywire Wyches + Hek and a Shard net (For Wraithknight hunting) comes in at just under 600pts. What you have to do is compare the Dias to a Land Raider, Av 13 vs AV 14 but the AV 13 can jink, so similar survivability. Add that to Vects habit to murderize any 3+ save squad in the game by himself and we have a usable, if expensive unit. Vs mass strength 7, would this be an option?

I love the Dias... but, it's really only worth it if you need to:
a) using it as a gunboat (ie, load it up with trueborns+splintercannons) or...
b) using it to deliver scary assaulty units (ie, Incubis, etc...) <--- my favorite

I usually go the Incubis route as it murders anything in close combat.

Brom on TDC has developed a neat little hammer unit for DE

Fuegan
Urien
Haemie Crucible Liquifier
Uber Grots Aberration Flesh Gauntlet
Raider TGL

Obviusly the Grots are just there as ablative wounds for the most part - now this is a lot of eggs in one basket so it had better do some damage, lol. You are close to 750 pts here.
But consider Furious charging, FNP Crucible and ICs that are really hard to take out, a bit of split fire too.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Was just wondering what are peoples view on the Dias of Destruction? Of course, i am not talking super competitively, but in my Meta i have been losing quite often to an Eldar player. To put it simply, it's because of his 2 Wave Serpents. I have the same problem with Tesla and Tau mass missiles, but they all have something in common. It's all strength 7 and aside from the odd Wraith cannon it seems to me in my Meta that is the most common strength, so i was thinking, what the heck, lets try Vect!

Vect in the Dias with 8 Haywire Wyches + Hek and a Shard net (For Wraithknight hunting) comes in at just under 600pts. What you have to do is compare the Dias to a Land Raider, Av 13 vs AV 14 but the AV 13 can jink, so similar survivability. Add that to Vects habit to murderize any 3+ save squad in the game by himself and we have a usable, if expensive unit. Vs mass strength 7, would this be an option?

Everyone hates on the Dais, but (for now) it works so well with the army. It does the following:

1. provides GOOD armor to an otherwise paper-thin army
2. due to #1 above, tends to be a giant fire magnet, thus allowing all your other nasty business to shoot unimpeded
3. is a SOLID delivery mechanism for one of the absolute nastiest cc fighters in the game (Vect). How many Wraithknights do you have? Not anymore...
4. essentially provides a Ravager with transport capacity, so 3 more dark lances (though this is less important in 7th, as it's harder to one-shot the enemy vehicles)

I'm not talking out of my arse about the Dais, because I took Vect and the Dais in the two-front doubles at Adepticon this year, and only lost one game (and that was due to gak dice, though my opponent was pretty damn good too). I've also won two local 1850 tourneys with Vect in the Dais, along with Eldar allies.

I wouldnt use the Dais. But the Tantalus? Yessir! Its Forge World so therefore I refuse. But its there if you want an extremely useful alternative.

The Dais is probably the best assault Vehicle in the game. Use that how you will. As the above poster said, it works to some of our armies strengths, but also to some of it's weaknesses. It's points cost and the cost of the unit inside to JUSTIFY it's points cost really hurts your MSU saturation. I think taking it requires a certain build around it. What that build is I'm not sure, but spamming paperthin MSU beside it might not achieve that critical mass of units that you need to assure SOME get their damage through. Vect and posse will hit hard - but not hard enough to win the game. Deepstriking the Dias is important, because tanky fire magnet or not if they kill it turn 1, they also deny a bunch of points from the CC unit. That many points probably isn't worth putting the power in your opponents hands with.

The tantalus is good indeed but the dias has potential also. As for killing it - it can now take nightshields it can jink. Not so easy it kill turn one. I used the dias a lot in 6ed. I plan on trying it out again in 7ed as it is even better now. And I have yet to DS a dias. It is amusing that you can get first hand reports on its effectiveness in a game and still people fail to se the potential there. Yep it is 100 more points than a rav. I know. But it is AV13 and the best Vect delivery (who can and will win you some games) in the DE arsenal.

Yeah I would never deep strike the Dais. One of the reasons you take Vect is to seize the initiative, for an Alpha Strike. I wouldn't Alpha strike with 550-ish points minimum in reserve.

why not? Its an obvious move.

Well then don't, hope those 3 lances are worth risking having your entire investment of Vect and crew denied by seeing the Dais popped


Where it's completely safe to deploy, obviously, deploy. Otherwise I think having to walk that slow ass 6" Deathstar across the board will hurt you much more than missing the "alpha" of a single Ravagers worth of firepower, just because you feel it's necessary to capitalise on a possible seize roll, which isn't actually the case even if the Seize roll was reliable.

Well it is if you are building a list around it. Yes. Depends on your battle plan though. The assumption that you will lose your dias turn one ... well. I would think you hide it, jink it, etc. without too much of a problem. And likely you are going fiorst as well - Vect.

There is no assumption - it's up to you to make the call. Factor in Jink and whatever else is relevant, and ask yourself - is it plausible that I will lose it before bringing my Deathstar over the other side if the field. If the answer is yes, which it often enough would be for me thinking about some of my regular opponents - then Deepstrike the Dias. No assumption on anything is being made.

Aside from that, making silly gameplay decisions because your list is "built around the chance to seize the initiative and alpha strike" is no justification, it just means your entire strategy is silly and somehow dependant on a single roll that is just as likely to go against you?

Actually I do not make those type of game play decisions. I have not set up my list to alpha strike at all. I don't rely on going first either. But I am calculating the odds of both not going first and losing my dias turn one (and I have yet to lose it turn one, btw). I do rely a bit on nightshields and jink though which are givens and hope for LoS blocking terrain and do cover my dias with a raider/ravager as well. Now assuming things did go horribly wrong i'm still probably saving two or three ravs/raiders and setting up my second hammer for a charge. If things go well Vect charges turn two. I see it as an acceptable risk.

Here is the thing. I play a dual hammer list. I have Vect /Dias and Grotstar coming at you. There are seven skimmers on the table. I do not use an autarch either and have no reserve manipulation. So I want multiple targets on the table. I certainly do not want my hammers in reserve.

The only units I consider reserving are myb two WJB squads but in maelstorm I might even play them on the table turn one depending on terrain and opponent.

Now if I am lucky enough to seize or win first turn and if I think there is a unit I can take out for first blood I might go for it if it does not expose me too much. I do expect to lose a few skimmers early - we are DE and are skimmers are paper thin.

So am not really sure why you want to keep your best unit in reserve and then risk a DS it has risks too, no?). I might be sitting in reserve till tuen four and I might mishap on arrival. I never did find a Duke list appealing - I think he is a trap and confines you to play a certain style.

That said - if you feel DSing skimmers is the way to go then do it. It would not be my first choice very often.

Losing the Dais turn 1 is fine. Two questions matter. How much enemy resources did it absorb and did it get vect there. Thats how you determine if its worth it...or it isnt.

Lets not act like the death of our stagecoach means ultimate defeat!

If your going to take the dais put wraithblades or fire dragons in it, it's a bit of a waste otherwise.

 Jancoran wrote:
Losing the Dais turn 1 is fine. Two questions matter. How much enemy resources did it absorb and did it get vect there. Thats how you determine if its worth it...or it isnt.

Lets not act like the death of our stagecoach means ultimate defeat!

Wow. Let's not act as if there aren't armies out there who have no trouble killing a Diaa turn 1. Any Marines with a decent amount of Grav for starters.

To immesiately deny probably around 300 points of models from assault if they can do it at a decent range, as well as the loss of the Dias itself, well you may just be left with a 1000 pt army in a 1500 pt game. And all they've fired so far is the Centurions. Losing it before it gets in position will likely be an auto-lose, just to varying degrees, unless your opponent is brought nothing but AT, and it took his entire army to bring it down.


Just a light example, fact is the situation does exist and taking Retrofire Jets for like 10 pts is definitely wise


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shingen wrote:
If your going to take the dais put wraithblades or fire dragons in it, it's a bit of a waste otherwise.

Being that Wraithblades are bulky, and minimum squad size is 5, I don't know if this works. Can you kick Vect out? Still a bad idea.

cant modify the Dais.

Yes you can. They removed the restriction from the FAQ so you can add upgrades as per the Raider.

AFAIK, the only bit of rules available as far as upgrading the Dais is concerned is currently the text in Codex telling us it's a special kind of Raider. If the explicit restriction is no longer anywhere, why would we adhere to a non-existent rule? Give it a Flickerfield and watch the opponents cry.

Btw, I'm a bit intrigued by the Night Shields vs. Flickerfield debate (on Raiders). Isn't it better to give them Night Shields to reduce enemy's range and then Jink when necessary for a 4+ cover instead of a 5++? Night Shields have been working wonders for me so far. What would be the instances when a Flickerfield is better?

I always take flickerfields and stay in cover for a better save. You can take the flickerfield save against failed dangerous terrain tests so you shouldn't need to jink really.

The codex states it is a special Raider with 3 dark lances and armor 13 but is otherwise treated "exactly" like a raider. Raiders can take upgrades and therefore so can the dais.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus ff is a big fingers up to tau and wave serpents which is always nice.

From Brom on TDC

I don't think many people have keyed into this (I didn't until recently) but the FAQ changed the wording from moral to leadership tests on the TGL.. i.e. fearless and daemons still test! Great way to stop an invisible hound unit from wrecking your ravagers, same for boyz. With jink I take these over FFs. Just a fringe bennie on top of -1 Ld bubbles.

I take nightshields and TGL on my Raiders and Dias. And yes, they can and should be upgraded. You have an expensive unit to protect.

It must be my local meta then. My most frequent opponent plays Tyranids, so the 6" decrease to his shooting range is delicious. Local tournaments involve mostly CSM, SM and Chaos Daemons, so not that much Ignores Cover shooting that could really threaten the Raiders (except for some Blastmasters).

Good catch with the Torment Grenade Launcher. They might be handy when in the danger of being charged by some Daemons or Hormagaunts and the like.

 SarisKhan wrote:

Btw, I'm a bit intrigued by the Night Shields vs. Flickerfield debate (on Raiders). Isn't it better to give them Night Shields to reduce enemy's range and then Jink when necessary for a 4+ cover instead of a 5++? Night Shields have been working wonders for me so far. What would be the instances when a Flickerfield is better?

Well, the obvious answer is when the enemy is so close that the 6" doesn't matter.
Can't you take both?

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 felixcat wrote:
I do rely a bit on nightshields and jink though which are givens and hope for LoS blocking terrain and do cover my dias with a raider/ravager as well.

Spend 75 points on a Bastion to hide behind?
I think I'd find the points for it if I were planning a skimmer assault.

Shingen wrote:
Yes you can. They removed the restriction from the FAQ so you can add upgrades as per the Raider.

They didn't "remove the restriction" The restriction was already there. It's just that some people didn't understand it so they HAD to put an FAQ out.

And they might yet again. FAQ's are still coming in. That's like saying they "took away the Necron allowance" on Deathmarks granting their ability to Royal Court members. Are you really going to make someone not do that, if they show the FAQ to you from 6th?

I DO understand and agree that we need to demand that GW update all the FAQ's more thoroughly to coverthe stuff they used to cover, one way or another. butthe precedent is more strongly in the favor of NOT doing it so I'm not going to, personally.

 Jancoran wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Yes you can. They removed the restriction from the FAQ so you can add upgrades as per the Raider.

They didn't "remove the restriction" The restriction was already there. It's just that some people didn't understand it so they HAD to put an FAQ out.

And they might yet again. FAQ's are still coming in. That's like saying they "took away the Necron allowance" on Deathmarks granting their ability to Royal Court members. Are you really going to make someone not do that, if they show the FAQ to you from 6th?

I DO understand and agree that we need to demand that GW update all the FAQ's more thoroughly to coverthe stuff they used to cover, one way or another. butthe precedent is more strongly in the favor of NOT doing it so I'm not going to, personally.

Not everyone played in 6th edition. If GW chooses not to having it currently in the rules, then the only method left is to interpret the current rules.
I think this forum even requires rules discussions to be based on current rules.
Totally agree that GW should cover FAQ changes from 6th to 7th. Seems like the current plan is to ignore it until the next round of books comes out.

I dont care if they did. The precedent is there.

So you HAVE to argue that ALL the missing FAQ's are invalid then right? I think that is a slippery slope. I wouldnt do that. I play as intended. And as far as i can tell, they didnt intend this to be allowed.

They literally took the time out to delete it from the FAQ. The only precedent here is following the most up to date version of the rules. Arguing some sort RAI based off how it used to be is going to get you nowhere outside of a casual group.


That being said, I still feel you are correct and that the specifications for the Dais are already given and at no stage is the option to take upgrades on it given, and that the FAQ was just a clarification of this. But your approach is wrong, find something in the rules to support this not just a very subjective RAI approach. I think the fact that it's such a grey area is why that FAQ was so important to stop it, and without it there there is nothing stopping you from upgrading as per any other Raider entry in your army.


Also, wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an updates FAQ. And when it comes I wouldn't expect too much clarification from it. Welcome to GW, home of the lazy.

The part from FAQ preventing Dais from taking Raider upgrades was (appears to be) specifically removed, but we're supposed to act as if it was still there.

The part from FAQ describing Heldrake's weapon as turret mounted was (appears to be) specifically removed, but we're supposed to act as if it never was there.

See what I did there?

 SarisKhan wrote:
The part from FAQ preventing Dais from taking Raider upgrades was (appears to be) specifically removed, but we're supposed to act as if it was still there.

As a DE player, I don't remember there being permission in the DE Codex allowing the Dais to take upgrades in the first place. It certainly isn't mentioned in the Dais section of the codex.

Shingen wrote:
Yes you can. They removed the restriction from the FAQ so you can add upgrades as per the Raider.

Except the book doesn't tell you you can. It says it's treated LIKE a raider and even directs you to p44. Thing is, it's not actually a raider so there is no permission to buy upgrades from a raiders entry. Only raiders can buy upgrades. The FAQ merely ended a rules dispute in one sides favor. Without the FAQ we have equal argument on both interpretations. I play conservatively even if I think it's silly. So for me it is just a 13/13/10 ravager that carries 10 homies.

Red Corsair summed it up pretty well. I've been going with what seems to be the majority that we are allowed to take upgrades, but somehow I think the main reason the majority feels this way is it's what's best suited to them, being that almost everyone who cares or even knows about the argument is likely a DE player. However, seeing now that others feel the same as me I'm going to stick to upgrade less Dais from now on in my strategy talk, until we can get confirmation either way. Just to be on the safe side.

Agreed, if the dais was allowed to be upgraded they would have said so in the book or put a list of upgrades below the dais entry.

So this is a tangent but given that logan and wolf lords for SW are gaining a wolf chariot, it made me wonder if thats a possible choice for DE. Basically design a Vect model and make the dais either a transport for royal courts or a chariot. I could definitely see a chariot similar to the CCB fitting into DE.

Pure speculation/wishlisting here.

The local GW store manager agrees with it that it can take upgrades.

In 5th edition it might have been a bit overpowered but if you look at some of the other units available now it's not really.

I don't even use the dais but think upgrades are right.

Shingen wrote:
The local GW store manager agrees with it that it can take upgrades.

In 5th edition it might have been a bit overpowered but if you look at some of the other units available now it's not really.

I don't even use the dais but think upgrades are right.

That's good too.

I am not saying one way is correct, merely that both have equally viable interpretations. Each group should discuss it and decide for themselves.

However, I think it's wrong to claim one way is the right way or only correct way to interpret it.

Again for me, when in any doubt, I take the least advantage possible.

Pretty much exactly that.

The guy who runs the gaming center near me says its not allowed it but he runs tournaments etc and you know how strict tournament players and organisers can be.

This is a similar argument to the whole Beastpack gets FNP from the Beastmasters argument. The difference is in that case there is nothing to support that you can do it in the codex at all. The Dais on the other hand explicitly says it is classed as a Raider (treated exactly).

Thats the only reason I argue for it, you could say its open to translation however its right there in black and white.

Well there really IS. the wording of the Special Rule states that if you have that rule in the unit, then those with the rule can gain pain tokens. It then goes on to say that the EFFECT of those pain tokens apply to the unit. so theres two issues. One is, who gets the tokens? Obviously, those with the special Rule. What happens if they die? Tokens go with em. What happens WHILE those with the special rule has them? It applies benefits to the unit.

The RULE and who gets it is separate from the issue of who benefits in the same way that other special rules apply to the unit while a person with it is alive in the unit.

We've gone rounds on that one on Thedarkcity.net. But we've always come to the same conclusion: Thosewithout the rule benefit, but the ones with the rule actually accumulate the tokens.

This is all tangential to my reasons for NOT DSing the Dias. I am not willing to give up the potential for a turn two assault. And the Dias can be hidden turn one and it does have jink and it is AV13. If the organizer disallows the nightshields I can live with it.

Here is the list btw so you can see what I'm after.

Asrubael Vect
Haemonculus Liquifier Gun
8 Wyches Haywire
Dias of Destruction Dark Lances Nightshields TGL
- 614 -

Fuegan
Haemonculus Liquifier Gun Crucible of Malediction
4 Grotesques 1 Abberration Flesh Gauntlet
Raider Disintegrators Nightshields TGL
- 600 -

2x 5 Warriors Blaster
2x Raider Disintegrators Nightshields TGL
- 270 -

2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes Shuriken Cannon
- 122 -

2 Ravager Nightshields TGL
- 240 -

Now it is a dual hammer list. If either the raider or the Dias goes down turn one ( which I'll do my best to prevent) I still haven't conceded the match. It is an 1850 list so I have overloaded on a few units and yes, it has the fun reather than the uber competitive attitude but hey, it is strong enough. The Fuegan raider will attempt to rsh forward , will split fire, will get the crucible off and try and do some major disruption as well. Both hammers are fearless and FNP too.

Now obviously a beastpack is cheaper. We accept that. I know it is not to everyone's taste - I get that too. It has weaknesses. I accept that. But there is no way I should be using DS to enhance the list ...

The notion of adding a bastion is actually quite tempting BTW. I will consider what could be dropped for it.

 felixcat wrote:

This is all tangential to my reasons for NOT DSing the Dias. I am not willing to give up the potential for a turn two assault. And the Dias can be hidden turn one and it does have jink and it is AV13. If the organizer disallows the nightshields I can live with it.

Here is the list btw so you can see what I'm after.

Asrubael Vect
Haemonculus Liquifier Gun
8 Wyches Haywire
Dias of Destruction Dark Lances Nightshields TGL
- 614 -

Fuegan
Haemonculus Liquifier Gun Crucible of Malediction
4 Grotesques 1 Abberration Flesh Gauntlet
Raider Disintegrators Nightshields TGL
- 600 -

2x 5 Warriors Blaster
2x Raider Disintegrators Nightshields TGL
- 270 -

2x 3 Windrider Jetbikes Shuriken Cannon
- 122 -

2 Ravager Nightshields TGL
- 240 -

Now it is a dual hammer list. If either the raider or the Dias goes down turn one ( which I'll do my best to prevent) I still haven't conceded the match. It is an 1850 list so I have overloaded on a few units and yes, it has the fun reather than the uber competitive attitude but hey, it is strong enough. The Fuegan raider will attempt to rsh forward , will split fire, will get the crucible off and try and do some major disruption as well. Both hammers are fearless and FNP too.

Now obviously a beastpack is cheaper. We accept that. I know it is not to everyone's taste - I get that too. It has weaknesses. I accept that. But there is no way I should be using DS to enhance the list ...

The notion of adding a bastion is actually quite tempting BTW. I will consider what could be dropped for it.

I think that'd be a fun list to throw around. I'd lose the Haemonculus from Vect's squad though, he ruins your Fleet advantage. Maybe start him in the Dais to give them a token, then kick him out?

 Jancoran wrote:
Well there really IS. the wording of the Special Rule states that if you have that rule in the unit, then those with the rule can gain pain tokens. It then goes on to say that the EFFECT of those pain tokens apply to the unit. so theres two issues. One is, who gets the tokens? Obviously, those with the special Rule. What happens if they die? Tokens go with em. What happens WHILE those with the special rule has them? It applies benefits to the unit.

The RULE and who gets it is separate from the issue of who benefits in the same way that other special rules apply to the unit while a person with it is alive in the unit.

We've gone rounds on that one on Thedarkcity.net. But we've always come to the same conclusion: Thosewithout the rule benefit, but the ones with the rule actually accumulate the tokens.

I agree entirely, it just doesn't seem as set in stone.

 Homeskillet wrote:

I think that'd be a fun list to throw around. I'd lose the Haemonculus from Vect's squad though, he ruins your Fleet advantage. Maybe start him in the Dais to give them a token, then kick him out?

Haemonculus jumps out of the Dias and mans the Bastion?

So I have been thinking about beast packs and beaststars. What do you guys think about running full beast pack next to the beast star? The beast pack with no special characters is already pretty deadly. and the beaststar has amazing survivability is you can get the powers. The benefit to running two packs would be if you can't get the powers or first turn you can charge both packs up. as they kill one pack you can jump your special character into the other.

I am looking at a something like:

baron
2 units of wyches in venoms
2 packs of 4 beast masters, 20 khymera and 4 flocks

farseer
Jetbikes
wraithknight
===========
about 1500

 lambsandlions wrote:
So I have been thinking about beast packs and beaststars. What do you guys think about running full beast pack next to the beast star? The beast pack with no special characters is already pretty deadly. and the beaststar has amazing survivability is you can get the powers. The benefit to running two packs would be if you can't get the powers or first turn you can charge both packs up. as they kill one pack you can jump your special character into the other.

I am looking at a something like:

baron
2 units of wyches in venoms
2 packs of 4 beast masters, 20 khymera and 4 flocks

farseer
Jetbikes
wraithknight
===========
about 1500

I'd rather stay with one Beast Star and provide lots of ranged support. That is actually what I'm planning to do with my current army.

Anyway, you've got the Beast Packs wrong, mate. 4 Beast Masters is 10 Khymerae + 4 Flocks, or 20 Khymerae.

 SarisKhan wrote:


I'd rather stay with one Beast Star and provide lots of ranged support. That is actually what I'm planning to do with my current army.

Anyway, you've got the Beast Packs wrong, mate. 4 Beast Masters is 10 Khymerae + 4 Flocks, or 20 Khymerae.

Oh in that case I would probably take 5 beast masters, 20 khymera and 2 flocks.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

I think that'd be a fun list to throw around. I'd lose the Haemonculus from Vect's squad though, he ruins your Fleet advantage. Maybe start him in the Dais to give them a token, then kick him out?

Haemonculus jumps out of the Dias and mans the Bastion?

Lol, or have him tactically retreat out of LoS (AKA run away). just tell him he ain't got to go home, but he got to get the heck off the Dais!

Am I the only one that hates that our power unit isn't made of Dark Eldar?

Eldar's power units are made of anti-grav as well as whatever makes massive Wraith nights, I can only assume the tears of a thousand Sisters of Battle players

CSM's power unit is (was?) made of Heldrake

Vehicles or Walker/MCs being the heavy lifters also applys to IG, Crons and Tau

The main exceptions I think are Tyranids & Daemons who are all well, Tyranids and Daemons, Imperial Knights, as well as GK & different Power army books with Centurions and awesome IC's, but even thats debatable with Dreadknight for GK & Stormtalons/TFC/Pods/BA fast Tanks/Land Raider for SM or whatever they choose to run as the power unit

lambsandlions wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:


I'd rather stay with one Beast Star and provide lots of ranged support. That is actually what I'm planning to do with my current army.

Anyway, you've got the Beast Packs wrong, mate. 4 Beast Masters is 10 Khymerae + 4 Flocks, or 20 Khymerae.

Oh in that case I would probably take 5 beast masters, 20 khymera and 2 flocks.

A tanky version, but whatever floats your boat. And yes, that would be rules-legal.

HawaiiMatt wrote:Am I the only one that hates that our power unit isn't made of Dark Eldar?

You mean the birds and doggies? Or are you referring to the single Eldar Jetseer who changes the Beast Pack from "You're gonna have trouble, boy" to "Mwahahaha, hahaha, hahahahaahaaaa!"?

So I tried out the Reaper and I am not impressed. It was exactly what I figured it to be.

Basically it suffers from one shot syndrome, which other vehicles have, but generally those other vehicles are artillery and scatter. The best shot is using it's single shot which well, misses.

In a 6 turn game you can expect it to miss on two turns, what sucks is you can't pick them, so having an open topped AV11 skimmer that misses it's first or even second shot makes it terrible in my opinion. Especially at 135!!!

Generally it's target number one and won't see turn 2 let alone 3.

Your better off paying 10 more points for a flier or saving 30 on a Ravager that will average 2 hits every turn.

To add insult to injury the one shot is only AP3 and without ignores cover even if you pen and roll for 3 more haywire effects all can be saved with one dies cover save.

I'll try it a few more games to cement my feelings, and also because it looks damn gorgeous. Really bummed that this thing performs so poorly though.

What are others' opinions on Scourges in Kill Team?

I prefer them over Reavers to be honest. 4+ save and a 6++ make them quite resiliant against most weapons you see(bolters, fleshborers, and such). Their better save helps against ignores cover weapons that make Reavers weep(Such as a barbed strangler with the ignores cover specialist).

Their weapons are better too- 18" and 3 shots I find to be perfect to murder anyone they look at, and plenty of additional weapons to plug any holes you have. Splintercannons for long range death, heat lances, and haywire blasters are my favorite armaments.

I find Reavers to not have as much room to turbo boost, and their bladevane attack to always be meh. Dying to flamers left and right(the whole nit enough room to manuever thing, and transports zipping up). They really only have access to antitank weapons besides a basic splinter rifle, so they're not really versatile either. The same problem as Hellions really, but at least the bikes have the option to turbo-boost when they can.

Haven't had a chance to try a beast master unit, so I would appreciate any Kill Team input on that.

I prefer the Scourges. Dont play kill team much though. However I like Scourges better than I like Ravagers in normal games so I already come built in with a high opinion there.

I've never actually played kill team. Must try it one day!

What's a decent Dark Eldar method for dealing with Deah-Wing Knights, beyond running away?

I'm using a foot-horde list, with 60 ground-pounding warriors and three Talos Engines. Only the trueborn and the Archon are inside transports.

Is just drowning them in shots the most efficient way? My army is putting out an average of 114 shots per turn outside of rapid-fire range.

I've always found Grotesques to be pretty good against Terminators.
Alternatively, Disintegrators are spectacular at removing Termis.

Otherwise, the same way you deal with anything else as Dark Eldar.

Drown them in Poison.

Thanks for the advice!

I edited for clarity- my biggest trouble seems to be against SS termies and death-wing knights respectively. In general, the 3++ from the shields means I can't just toss a Talos or two at 'em and expect results, and the Knights are WS5, T5, 2+3++ and have some special mauls that allow them to hit at strength 10 AP1 at initiative for one round per game. So, they'd make mince-meat out of pretty much anything I can think of throwing at them.

I think you're on the money about whittling them down.

edit- In fact, doing some math-hammer, with each of my three venom/trueborn unit having 4 splinter cannons between of them for a total of 12, they're putting out 72 shots... which'll put 4 wounds on a terminator squad. Hm.

And on the other hand I just realized that I have literally zero anti-vehicle.. Dunno why I thought splinter cannons were strength 7. Ah well, back to the drawing board...

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What's a decent Dark Eldar method for dealing with Deah-Wing Knights, beyond running away?

I'm using a foot-horde list, with 60 ground-pounding warriors and three Talos Engines. Only the trueborn and the Archon are inside transports.

Is just drowning them in shots the most efficient way? My army is putting out an average of 114 shots per turn outside of rapid-fire range.

DE laugh at TDA, splinter shots are easily enough. Pepper them good and they fail their 2+ saves


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Thanks for the advice!

I edited for clarity- my biggest trouble seems to be against SS termies and death-wing knights respectively. In general, the 3++ from the shields means I can't just toss a Talos or two at 'em and expect results, and the Knights are WS5, T5, 2+3++ and have some special mauls that allow them to hit at strength 10 AP1 at initiative for one round per game. So, they'd make mince-meat out of pretty much anything I can think of throwing at them.

I think you're on the money about whittling them down.

edit- In fact, doing some math-hammer, with each of my three venom/trueborn unit having 4 splinter cannons between of them for a total of 12, they're putting out 72 shots... which'll put 4 wounds on a terminator squad. Hm.

And on the other hand I just realized that I have literally zero anti-vehicle.. Dunno why I thought splinter cannons were strength 7. Ah well, back to the drawing board...

A venom has 2 splinter cannons, 12 shots, causes 4 wounds, little less than 1 unsaved each turn it fires. It costs only 65 points and can kill TDA from 36" away.

It might not sound like much, but if you take 6 of them, that is 390 points. They can put down 4 Deathwing knights a turn. Deathwingknights are expesnive, and they cannot do anything to your venoms. They can never catch them.

Indeed.

I recall there being a rule in the codex that allowed units embarked in a skimmer to fire at full BS even if the venom/raider moved at cruising speed, but I can't find it anywhere. It's been awhile since I've delved into this 'dex. Is that rule an actual thing, or did I imagine it?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I recall there being a rule in the codex that allowed units embarked in a skimmer to fire at full BS even if the venom/raider moved at cruising speed, but I can't find it anywhere. It's been awhile since I've delved into this 'dex. Is that rule an actual thing, or did I imagine it?

Too good to be true, sadly.

There's a rule that lets DE vehicles fire all their weapons at full BS (so a venom / raider / ravager can move 12" and fire at full BS), but not their passengers.

Yeah, that's actually the Ravager special rule (and also I think all fast vehicles have it now as well). A shame, but it's not all bad. After watching and reading a few batreps, I'm starting to pick up on some good tactics for Deldar.

On a different speed- I've thrown together a list for 1500 points that I'd like some opinions on.


Honestly venom/raider spam is just so damn boring to me. It's one of the reasons I never really hopped into the Dark Eldar kool-aid. So, I'd like to give foot horde Deldar a try. I might consider dropping one of the warrior units though, 60 of them isn't a requirement.

That aside, any opinions on wargear/units? I'm kind of worried about anti-vehicle. There's a whopping 16 splinter-cannons in this list, which gives me all the AA I'd need, but will the ravangers be enough or would it be wise to invest in some blasters or dark lances?

Does the list even synergize well? My general plan is to march the warriors up the board, soaking up shots and forming the hammer while my ravagers Venom-born's shoot up the flanks and cripple key units and apply pressure, while the jetbikes contest objectives or screen for the ravagers/venoms.

Any opinions? critiques? Doesn't have to be related to my musings.

You have 9 shots capable of even hurting a vehicle, spread between 3 different AV10 Vehicles of your own. They are not going to get the job done consistently, some games it will be enough, others your opponent will get first turn and they are the biggest best and most efficient targets on the field to shoot at, these games you auto-lose. Losing all 3 by turn 2 is not a rare situation in general.

But what exactly are you trying to achieve with your list? If you are going for "competitive without transports" I can point you in the right direction, if you want walking infantry I can help with that too, so far tho It just looks like you want a lot of splinter cannons, and this is why people take Venom spam - they are the most efficient units for Splinter Cannons in the game and can apply that shooting most reliably.


Walking Warriors is probably not a good idea. Just in general. They have the survivability of a Termagant, for more than double the price. Even in rapid fire range their damage output isn't much higher than Termagants, and lower outside of it. And termagants suck. It's not worth taking Warriors without transports. And even then.... Wyches have a much greater threat potential, and Wrack troops are probably the best you can do generalised. Spamming 60 walking Warriors just feels like you are going to badly lose any war of attrition, just because the unit itself isn't very points efficient, and rather than getting better in numbers it's just amplifying your problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Splinter Cannons as AA, I take it you mean against FMC's?

If you're only facing FMCs?

The 4x15 Warriors is... needless.

6x10 would be far more effective, and grant you 2 extra heavy weapons.
And even then....
I'd honestly go 4x10 in Raiders with Dissies, which'd give you some anti-light vehicle and anti-elite infantry, leaving your Ravagers to deal with bigger bits.

And I'm not sure what role the 6 Reavers have tbh.
They're too fragile to be a good 'screen'.

I would likely drop them to properly kit out the other units.

As stated, poison can't hurt vehicles.
You have the grand total of 3 units that can even touch vehicles.

And to extend on what Ovion touched on lightly with Reavers, it's not necessarily the Reavers that are out of place, more the fact that no upgrades are mentioned, and taking naked Reavers is a really bad use of points generally. They can make great use of a Heat Lance which also covers you on a bit more (light) AT, their Caltrops really amplify the damage output, and I personally enjoy an Arena Champ with Agoniser to use their massive mobility to always be available to help my beastpacks/wyches and the like who get tarpitted in CC by something like a Wraithknight or TMC. But just taking them naked? They aren't going to be worth the points, the good thing is if you have the models they are very playable just use them with a higher tier load-out of some description. It's too taste, there is no real wrong answer most their upgrades are useable, but if you aren't taking them with at least one or two of them, leave them at home.

How much anti-tank does an army with a full beast pack need? Most tanks have av10 rear facing armor so the pack just glances them to death. I am thinking of running 3 units of wyches with grenades in venoms for land raiders and titans and what not. Plus a wraith knight. For a close combat army is anti-tank really that important?

Also how do you guys rate wyches? I am watching battle reports were they are insane taking down titans and I see battle reports where bolter fire blows them up in the venom.

Thanks for the advice, gentlemen.

 Ovion wrote:
If you're only facing FMCs?

The 4x15 Warriors is... needless.

6x10 would be far more effective, and grant you 2 extra heavy weapons.
And even then....
I'd honestly go 4x10 in Raiders with Dissies, which'd give you some anti-light vehicle and anti-elite infantry, leaving your Ravagers to deal with bigger bits.

And I'm not sure what role the 6 Reavers have tbh.
They're too fragile to be a good 'screen'.

I would likely drop them to properly kit out the other units.

As stated, poison can't hurt vehicles.
You have the grand total of 3 units that can even touch vehicles.

Assuming dissie is short-hand for a disintegration cannon, I see the value in that. Again though, while it's not hard to maximize Delder potential and just make a list that's basically a dozen raiders/venoms with 10-man warrior and 5-man trueborn in them, that's not really what I'm trying to do. 6x10 sounds makes a lot of sense, now that you mentioned. I originally had them set up as 3 blobs of 20, then condescend them to 4 units of 15 for that very reason. Further deconstructing them to 6x10 for the extra weapons has merit. What special weapons do you think would make most sense on Warrior units?

 SHUPPET wrote:
You have 9 shots capable of even hurting a vehicle, spread between 3 different AV10 Vehicles of your own. They are not going to get the job done consistently, some games it will be enough, others your opponent will get first turn and they are the biggest best and most efficient targets on the field to shoot at, these games you auto-lose. Losing all 3 by turn 2 is not a rare situation in general.

But what exactly are you trying to achieve with your list? If you are going for "competitive without transports" I can point you in the right direction, if you want walking infantry I can help with that too, so far tho It just looks like you want a lot of splinter cannons, and this is why people take Venom spam - they are the most efficient units for Splinter Cannons in the game and can apply that shooting most reliably.


Walking Warriors is probably not a good idea. Just in general. They have the survivability of a Termagant, for more than double the price. Even in rapid fire range their damage output isn't much higher than Termagants, and lower outside of it. And termagants suck. It's not worth taking Warriors without transports. And even then.... Wyches have a much greater threat potential, and Wrack troops are probably the best you can do generalised. Spamming 60 walking Warriors just feels like you are going to badly lose any war of attrition, just because the unit itself isn't very points efficient, and rather than getting better in numbers it's just amplifying your problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Splinter Cannons as AA, I take it you mean against FMC's?

I meant AI, anti-infantry/MC. And the Reavers have one caltrop upgrade, didn't have points for more in the current configuration.

I'd like to make the most competitive Deldar list I can that doesn't involve transport-spam. I don't mind using ravagers and venoms as support, but my preference is for ground-pounding units to be the bulk of my force. It doesn't have to be warriors- the only reason I left out wytches and wracks is because without a transport I feel like they won't be making their points back until most of the game is over, due to how slow they are. But I'm open to all advice, and any unit in the codex is pretty much on the table.

Well, basically - Beastpack. There is no better ground pound unit. Want more than 25 beasts? Make another beastpack.

They are just an amazingly points effecient unit. Support it with a bunch Agonizer Hexatrix Haywire Wyches in Venoms, and maybe as many Reaver+AgonizerChamp squads as you can depending on how many beastpacks you took. This will trade very well with anything that tarpits them or any tanks that don't have AV10 rear armour

its still got transports of a sort but they are the support units not the focus

Just my suggestion

Yeah I second Beastpack, it's extremely resilient as far as DE go and with a unit that big that you can spread out you're bound to be assaulting something (if not multi-assaulting) on turn 2. I'd hold off on any large purchases until the new codex is out however (it's rumoured to be next).

Yeah, really your options are: Beastbacks and/or Hellions, maybe some bikes for flavour.
Throw in 1-3 Ravagers and 1-2 Razorwings to flavour.

OR, full coven.

Wracks are pretty damn resilient at the end of the day, as are large groups of Grotesques and Talos (I find 2 plus a Razorwing is that Heavy Support sweet spot).

But as said - wait for the new Codex for expensive stuff, like Coven units especially (being rumoured to be in plastic), and beast packs.

Otherwise, buying up some Battleforces (say 2-3), which WILL stay useful regardless (transports and base troops) before the price hike of a new release, wouldn't be a bad idea.

Khymerae Beastpack + Teleptathy Farseer + Sanctic Eldrad+ Baron. ho mama. Sanctuary+Hammerhand + Invisibility. Lots of tries for the right powers. And both the Farseer and Eldrad laugh at miscasts most of the time so I mean, they can chuck 8 or 9 dice at invis and dare you to even try to stop it.

Culexis Assassin. I hear you. But outside of him? Few enough answers. "Line" attacks, Novas, so on. But having those things costs points that maybe you get back and maybe you dont against other foes.

In any event, BeastStars are cool.

If you're going the full warrior route, max out your warrior squads and take two heavy weapons- either double cannons or double lances. Double lances will split their target priority, but if you need more anti-tank it's a option. I've never found maxed out units of warriors to be a handicap- it takes at the bare minimum 20 shots to kill a full squad, which allows your ravagers to work their magic. I would invest in at least one haemonculi for each squad though- they definately need the feel know pain, and I'm pretty sure they can take hexrifles for sniping. You might split up your Reavers into two squads and take two heat lances for more anti-tank. Also switch at least one Trueborn unit to four blasters(you could also give them a raider and two dark lances to maximize tank hunting).

I second everyone's beastpack suggestion. In addition, I've actually run a list this ed. having warrior squads come out of wwp and it actually worked out really well. It allows them to get in range as soon as they arrive and not already be shot to bits. I also had two talos in the list that came in through the wwp. Their performance was more mediocre, but they do provide a good distraction from the warrior units especially combined with a beastpack. Their also decent at blowing up vehicles and melting squads with their TL liquefier guns too, just some food for thought.

Also, just replace the archon with a haemonculis or three. He serves no purpose and the pain token will give all your warriors a survivability boost.

I like the idea of mass warriors, hence the original list, but I'm leery of maximizing their heavy weapons as I feel like it kind of disincentives me to use their mobility. With weapons like Dark Lances they're pretty much useless if they move, which I want them to do since their basic rifle is only 24'' and rapid-fire. That's why I'd given them all splinter cannons, since their assault 4 profile means that I can keep them mobile and they'll only lose two shots. But, as noted, that's more anti-infantry than I really need.

Mathhammer says that Wracks are both more durable and hit harder in melee than wyches do, but they have zero anti-armor capabilities as they lack access to EMP grenades.

As they're both 10 points and take up the same space on raiders, the question pretty much becomes: should I be using my infantry for anti-infantry duties, or should I be using them nominally for dealing with armor/hard targets? If I were to take a Haemonculi/Wrack coven with minimal or no wyches, how do I fill the anti-armor role using other units in the codex?

Here's what my current list looks like. I've been pretty busy irl so haven't had much time to work on it.



Also, someone mentioned blasterborn. That's a good idea, and something I'm also considering. If I were to do that, might it be prudent to switch out the venom with a raider and give it a disintegrator cannon?

In any case, thanks for all the advice so far guys. Let me know what you think.


Edit- Taking a second look at Khymera and they seem like they can be pretty decent for tanking wounds with their 4++. At 12ppm, might it be worth investing in a couple per beast-pack?

I thought you were trying to avoid spamming transports? If not, blasterborn in venoms would be better antitank- the venom can still ping infantry while the blasters hose a tank. Personally I would try to fi haemonculi in with your Wyches instead of the Hekatrix(personally I prefer liquifier guns over Agonisers). Like the warriors earlier it will help with their survivability quite a bit. Just jump out and let the haemonculi zip around liquifying things if their transport survives.

Erm..hello. I haven't been here in years....looking into the hobby again.

What's with all the chatting about haywire grenades as the new Anti-tank? Did something happen to Dark Lances? Dark Lances are STR8 AP2 right? Against a Rhino (AV11), it was 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate. Is it no longer?

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Erm..hello. I haven't been here in years....looking into the hobby again.

What's with all the chatting about haywire grenades as the new Anti-tank? Did something happen to Dark Lances? Dark Lances are STR8 AP2 right? Against a Rhino (AV11), it was 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate. Is it no longer?

Yeah, and then a 6+ to actually kill the rhino. Otherwise, you need 2 more glances or pens. So, 6-7 shots to drop a 35 point transport.
It's just inefficient.
On the other hand, 5 wyches charging will kill most tanks in the game.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Erm..hello. I haven't been here in years....looking into the hobby again.

What's with all the chatting about haywire grenades as the new Anti-tank? Did something happen to Dark Lances? Dark Lances are STR8 AP2 right? Against a Rhino (AV11), it was 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate. Is it no longer?

Yeah, and then a 6+ to actually kill the rhino. Otherwise, you need 2 more glances or pens. So, 6-7 shots to drop a 35 point transport.
It's just inefficient.
On the other hand, 5 wyches charging will kill most tanks in the game.

-Matt

Is that different from 5th Edition, which was the last one I played? Penetrate a Rhino on a 4, then Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed, Immobilized, Wrecked, Explode. Is that different?

Is that the 7 people are talking about to explode? What are the new results on the penetration table? Does AP2 count for anything then? My Codex is packed away in a box somewhere...it *is* AP2 right?

In 7th edition they made it harder to destroy vehicles. You now need a 7 to explode so yeah a roll of 6 and the +1 from AP2.

Haywire on the other hand is basically just glancing it to death.

One other option is the forgeworld Reaper which I am seriously considering buying.

36" beam weapon that's hits everything under it. It's s7 AP3 but causes d3 haywire hits to vehicles and causes an instant death wound to infantry on a 5+, pure nasty!

Reaper seems very versatile. Not looking at it as strictly AT, it's a model that I imagine would make its points back every game, although definitely needs AT support probably Blasterborn.

Yay reapers

 Sinful Hero wrote:
I thought you were trying to avoid spamming transports?

._.

No, you're right. I'm between a bit of a rock and a hard place, because on one hand I'm not confident that a foot-pounding wrack/wyche horde is viable (they have no ranged weapons and are just too slow to make it into melee anytime soon), while for Warriors, well... I echo my concerns from earlier.

If not, blasterborn in venoms would be better antitank- the venom can still ping infantry while the blasters hose a tank. Personally I would try to fi haemonculi in with your Wyches instead of the Hekatrix(personally I prefer liquifier guns over Agonisers). Like the warriors earlier it will help with their survivability quite a bit. Just jump out and let the haemonculi zip around liquifying things if their transport survives.

I've been thinking long and hard about Blasterborn's. Embarked passengers can shoot at a different target from their transport, but I'm wondering if it might just be better to put units of blasterborn inside a disintegrator cannon raider? The extra AP 2 will help alot, considering that blasters are only assault 1.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Erm..hello. I haven't been here in years....looking into the hobby again.

What's with all the chatting about haywire grenades as the new Anti-tank? Did something happen to Dark Lances? Dark Lances are STR8 AP2 right? Against a Rhino (AV11), it was 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate. Is it no longer?

Oh. Em. Gee. You're back! Welcome back Dash! I've been waiting for you to write up more tactics for...well...since you left!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
I thought you were trying to avoid spamming transports?

._.

No, you're right. I'm between a bit of a rock and a hard place, because on one hand I'm not confident that a foot-pounding wrack/wyche horde is viable (they have no ranged weapons and are just too slow to make it into melee anytime soon), while for Warriors, well... I echo my concerns from earlier.

If not, blasterborn in venoms would be better antitank- the venom can still ping infantry while the blasters hose a tank. Personally I would try to fi haemonculi in with your Wyches instead of the Hekatrix(personally I prefer liquifier guns over Agonisers). Like the warriors earlier it will help with their survivability quite a bit. Just jump out and let the haemonculi zip around liquifying things if their transport survives.

I've been thinking long and hard about Blasterborn's. Embarked passengers can shoot at a different target from their transport, but I'm wondering if it might just be better to put units of blasterborn inside a disintegrator cannon raider? The extra AP 2 will help alot, considering that blasters are only assault 1.

Raiders are also a bit more expensive-
Really your choices are
12 poison shots
1 str 8 ap2 lance
3 str 5 ap 2
If you want pure antitank, I'd go for the lance just for redundancy.

Shingen wrote:
In 7th edition they made it harder to destroy vehicles. You now need a 7 to explode so yeah a roll of 6 and the +1 from AP2.

Haywire on the other hand is basically just glancing it to death.

One other option is the forgeworld Reaper which I am seriously considering buying.

36" beam weapon that's hits everything under it. It's s7 AP3 but causes d3 haywire hits to vehicles and causes an instant death wound to infantry on a 5+, pure nasty!

I haven't purchased a 7th Edition rulebook yet - I intend to get one this weekend when I visit a FLGS - so in the meantime, please pretend I don't know anything, because it's true.

In 5th Edition, a Dark Lance firing at a vehicle needed a 5 to wreck, 6 to explode.

In 7th Edition, a Dark Lance firing at a vehicle needs a ?? to wreck, and a 7 to explode....but AP1 and AP2 give +1 on the penetration table? What are the result tables now? Is Wrecked gone? Does 5 no longer wreck something? If you immobilize a vehicle, destroy all weapons, and get another immobilize/weapon destroy result, does it still kill the vehicle?

I'm trying to figure out if it is harder to kill a vehicle with a dark lance in 7th than it was in 5th. I learned about Hull Points yesterday. I understand that glances are no longer Penetration table -2, and are instead now simple remove an HP. Help me, for I am eager to re-learn how to play.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

Shingen wrote:
In 7th edition they made it harder to destroy vehicles. You now need a 7 to explode so yeah a roll of 6 and the +1 from AP2.

Haywire on the other hand is basically just glancing it to death.

One other option is the forgeworld Reaper which I am seriously considering buying.

36" beam weapon that's hits everything under it. It's s7 AP3 but causes d3 haywire hits to vehicles and causes an instant death wound to infantry on a 5+, pure nasty!

I haven't purchased a 7th Edition rulebook yet - I intend to get one this weekend when I visit a FLGS - so in the meantime, please pretend I don't know anything, because it's true.

In 5th Edition, a Dark Lance firing at a vehicle needed a 5 to wreck, 6 to explode.

In 7th Edition, a Dark Lance firing at a vehicle needs a ?? to wreck, and a 7 to explode....but AP1 and AP2 give +1 on the penetration table? What are the result tables now? Is Wrecked gone? Does 5 no longer wreck something? If you immobilize a vehicle, destroy all weapons, and get another immobilize/weapon destroy result, does it still kill the vehicle?

I'm trying to figure out if it is harder to kill a vehicle with a dark lance in 7th than it was in 5th. I learned about Hull Points yesterday. I understand that glances are no longer Penetration table -2, and are instead now simple remove an HP. Help me, for I am eager to re-learn how to play.

1-3 shaken
4 Stunned
5 Weapon Destroyed
6 Immobolized
7+ Explodes
Stripping all hullpoints is the only way to wreck.
AP 2 adds +1 to the table, AP 1 adds +2.

Ghazhkull's Balls!

They did away with "Wreck."

Do each of the results strip a hullpoint away? How many hullpoints do most vehicles have? Hullpoints came out with 6th Edition? DE codex came out in 5th - how do you tell how many HP DE vehicles have?

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Ghazhkull's Balls!

They did away with "Wreck."

Do each of the results strip a hullpoint away? How many hullpoints do most vehicles have? Hullpoints came out with 6th Edition? DE codex came out in 5th - how do you tell how many HP DE vehicles have?

Any hit strips a hullpoint- I can't remember if a pen still strips two or not. The average is three- Landraiders and monoliths have four, super heavies have twice that or more, small things have two. In our codex everything has three except for venoms at two. The BRB or the FAQ should list everything- although I should mention rumors point to a new codex before the end of the year.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Ghazhkull's Balls!

They did away with "Wreck."

Do each of the results strip a hullpoint away? How many hullpoints do most vehicles have? Hullpoints came out with 6th Edition? DE codex came out in 5th - how do you tell how many HP DE vehicles have?

Hi Dash!

*waves*

Generally, each results does strip a HP. Some rules allows multiple HPs removed with one hit, such as STR D weapons and Grav guns.

Most vehicles have 3 HPs. (speeder/Venom variants are 2, rhinos/Raiders are 3, Landraiders+ are 4, etc...).

I believe the DE's HP listings is in the 7th ed Rule book.
Venoms are 2 HPs
Raiders/Ravagers/Razorwing/VoidRavens are 3 HPs
Vect's Dias / Tantalus are 4 HPs

FYI: Rumour is that DE will get a new codex in a few months... so, great timing!

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Ghazhkull's Balls!

Yeah, that basically sums up the edition changes for Dark Eldar. We're in a pretty rough spot lately, but I'm hoping we'll see a new codex soon. We badly need it.

7th edition is largely a shooting edition, but that means both delivering firepower and sustaining it in turn.

While Dark Eldar always had exceptional anti-infantry firepower, our lists have struggled to bring enough anti-tank. Many options that could have been competitive (disintegrators) had to be ignored entirely because of the opportunity cost in our anti-tank arsenal. 6th and 7th edition made that problem worse. Beyond just being easier to penetrate, low AV vehicles tend to suffer from a lack of hull points. The more forgiving damage chart is largely irrelevant when your opponent only needs two results to wreck your venoms. Meanwhile, our chance to destroy a land raider outright has been cut in half.

Remember that glances no longer roll on the damage table. In 5th, it was sufficient to fire at a unit until you scored a shaken or stunned result. You could trust that that unit wouldn't be doing anything meaningful in the next turn. In 6th, that changed. The vehicle now loses a hull point. If it wasn't the last one, it remains perfectly capable of returning fire in the subsequent turn. Dark Eldar vehicles are too fragile and too expensive to make that a winning proposition.

6th edition introduced some new unit types: Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures. With it came a new USR called "Skyfire". Those without the USR must fire at BS1 when targeting Flyers and FMCs. Those with the USR must fire at BS1 when targeting things other than FMCs, Flyers, or Skimmers. Flyers and FMCs can choose whether to have the USR at the beginning of each shooting phase. Most other units are stuck shooting at one class of units or the other. Our Ravenwing Fighter and Voidraven Bomber units are flyers -- but neither are very effective anti-tank platforms, and both are prohibitively fragile and expensive. This makes them poor dogfighters and leaves our codex without any effective counters.

There is some hope though. In 7th edition, most codices are moving to an "armoury" style upgrade list. There's several sets of weapon upgrades which are made generally available throughout the codex. If Haywire Blasters make the list, we might have enough anti-tank to be competitive. But if GW is expecting Darklight Spam to be effective at current point costs, we're going to have a very rough time.

And in some respects, 7th edition is actually nicer to Dark Eldar than 6th was. In 6th, troops could not score while inside transports. In 7th, nearly everything scores, but both troops and their dedicated transports can score even while non-troop units are there to contest. Mobility was a big factor in 5th edition, and that hasn't changed. It's a relief that we no longer have to choose between scoring and mobility.

P.S.: I know you also play Necrons. They're in exceedingly good position right now, especially if you use Forgeworld.

I play / did play Necrons, but I stopped 40k before the 5th Edition Necron codex dropped, so I have no Necron models. I'm not looking to build a new army and buy thousands of dollars worth of things that I don't want to paint anyway. >< If Dark Eldar are underdogs, I'm happy.

The reason I picked up DE in the first place was because no one played them, they had a 2nd Edition Codex in 5th Edition, and were considered one of the weakest armies. When they got a new Codex, folks started complaining that Necrons were the weakest, so I started playing those.

I'd been juggling whether to start back in with Orks or Dark Eldar. Orks have a new Codex, but it's very disappointing to me. I have a thematic Ork army, and while much of the new codex is disappointing, I simply can't abide not having Ghazzy as the leader of my army. I understand the "Lords of War" but he's not a Titan. He's an IC. My entire Ork army theme "Ghazghkull's Harem" is based around Ghazzy and his friends.

So...I'll be leading in with my newly underpowered Dark Eldar again! Let me get a few games under my belt so I can get an understanding of the rules again. My 5th Edition standard DE 1850 list "Darklight Storm" had a raider full of wyches on it with haywire grenades (since lances lost the ability to reduce AV to 12). I was a big fan of my wyches multi-assaulting vehicles. Thanks for all the comments and insights; this has been a valuable thread. I'll be getting back into the hobby slowly; lots to learn.

FYI: Lances still work like they did in 5th. So, no worries there.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
I play / did play Necrons, but I stopped 40k before the 5th Edition Necron codex dropped, so I have no Necron models. I'm not looking to build a new army and buy thousands of dollars worth of things that I don't want to paint anyway. >< If Dark Eldar are underdogs, I'm happy.

The reason I picked up DE in the first place was because no one played them, they had a 2nd Edition Codex in 5th Edition, and were considered one of the weakest armies. When they got a new Codex, folks started complaining that Necrons were the weakest, so I started playing those.

I'd been juggling whether to start back in with Orks or Dark Eldar. Orks have a new Codex, but it's very disappointing to me. I have a thematic Ork army, and while much of the new codex is disappointing, I simply can't abide not having Ghazzy as the leader of my army. I understand the "Lords of War" but he's not a Titan. He's an IC. My entire Ork army theme "Ghazghkull's Harem" is based around Ghazzy and his friends.

So...I'll be leading in with my newly underpowered Dark Eldar again! Let me get a few games under my belt so I can get an understanding of the rules again. My 5th Edition standard DE 1850 list "Darklight Storm" had a raider full of wyches on it with haywire grenades (since lances lost the ability to reduce AV to 12). I was a big fan of my wyches multi-assaulting vehicles. Thanks for all the comments and insights; this has been a valuable thread. I'll be getting back into the hobby slowly; lots to learn.

Dash, you are back!

So DE in 6th took a huge beating and became a very weak army again(although Jetbikes became awesome).

DE are next to get a new codex in 7th, supposedly it will have some new coven plastic models but no one really knows. Expect some changes to wyches and warriors to change a bit(we hope for the better). Rumor is Baron is going to get the ax, although again, rumor.

Corollax wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Ghazhkull's Balls!

Yeah, that basically sums up the edition changes for Dark Eldar. We're in a pretty rough spot lately, but I'm hoping we'll see a new codex soon. We badly need it.

I wouldn't say Dark Eldar are weak right now at all. In tournaments, I've won my last 10 consecutive games with Dark Eldar. Maelstrom missions especially are easily abused by our forces since you can field a list with 14 objective secured units without much trouble.

I'd say our biggest weakness is anti-air, but bringing a single crimson hunter exarch and hoping for a skyfire objective anywhere on the table has usually been sufficient to take down armies with up to 3 fliers.

I'm really hoping there won't be too many drastic changes to our codex right now.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
I play / did play Necrons, but I stopped 40k before the 5th Edition Necron codex dropped, so I have no Necron models. I'm not looking to build a new army and buy thousands of dollars worth of things that I don't want to paint anyway. >< If Dark Eldar are underdogs, I'm happy.

I'm even happier to have you back. Welcome back.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
The reason I picked up DE in the first place was because no one played them, they had a 2nd Edition Codex in 5th Edition, and were considered one of the weakest armies. When they got a new Codex, folks started complaining that Necrons were the weakest, so I started playing those.

Fair enough. You should still review their codex so you know what you're up against. That volume of S7 is brutal on Dark Eldar transports.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
I'd been juggling whether to start back in with Orks or Dark Eldar. Orks have a new Codex, but it's very disappointing to me. I have a thematic Ork army, and while much of the new codex is disappointing, I simply can't abide not having Ghazzy as the leader of my army. I understand the "Lords of War" but he's not a Titan. He's an IC. My entire Ork army theme "Ghazghkull's Harem" is based around Ghazzy and his friends.

7th edition lets you nominate any character as your army's Warlord. You don't need to choose an HQ. Unless Super-Heavy vehicles are allowed, the only consequence of Ghazzy's Lord of War status is that he neither occupies your HQ slots nor satisfies the requirement. Basically, Ghazzy needs somfink bigga ta boss around than just da boyz.

But to be honest, I was also disappointed in the new Ork codex. And poison is sexier anyway.

 Dashofpepper wrote:
So...I'll be leading in with my newly underpowered Dark Eldar again! Let me get a few games under my belt so I can get an understanding of the rules again. My 5th Edition standard DE 1850 list "Darklight Storm" had a raider full of wyches on it with haywire grenades (since lances lost the ability to reduce AV to 12). I was a big fan of my wyches multi-assaulting vehicles. Thanks for all the comments and insights; this has been a valuable thread. I'll be getting back into the hobby slowly; lots to learn.

The Lance rule still works, and Black Templars lost access to Blessed Hull when they were absorbed into Codex: Space Marines. Monoliths also lost their lance immunity. Haywire grenades work too, but don't expect the wyches to be able to accomplish much when assaulting anything but vehicles. Their dodge save isn't applicable during overwatch.

lessthanjeff wrote:

Corollax wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Ghazhkull's Balls!

Yeah, that basically sums up the edition changes for Dark Eldar. We're in a pretty rough spot lately, but I'm hoping we'll see a new codex soon. We badly need it.

I wouldn't say Dark Eldar are weak right now at all. In tournaments, I've won my last 10 consecutive games with Dark Eldar. Maelstrom missions especially are easily abused by our forces since you can field a list with 14 objective secured units without much trouble.

DE have this strange kind of anti deathstar nature. They can run around and kite a lot of death stars out there, it doesnt matter how deadly you are in close combat if you never get into combat, and are constantly being showered by 70 posion shots + some lances a turn.

That said a lot of Tournament lists lean towards death stars. Less models to carry. Less models to paint so you can invest more time into each model. A quicker more decisive game most often. So lots of people take death stars to tournaments, and a mech DE list will be able to win or draw many of these lists without much trouble.

Also beaststar with baron is potent, and a component of a lot of Eldar DE tournament lists

 Exergy wrote:


Also beaststar with baron is potent, and a component of a lot of Eldar DE tournament lists

That caught on?!?

Good lord, I got so much grief for Baron Sathonyx + Beasts, but the +1 is/was so important to Dark Eldar that I couldn't figure out a better way to field him.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Also beaststar with baron is potent, and a component of a lot of Eldar DE tournament lists

That caught on?!?

Good lord, I got so much grief for Baron Sathonyx + Beasts, but the +1 is/was so important to Dark Eldar that I couldn't figure out a better way to field him.

Combining it with the new Eldar codex in sixth made it a nightmare for opponents- 12" movement, rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves, and ferocious CC ability. It's toned down slightly in seventh though.

I don't see many lists posted with the Baron anymore- and I'm not sure why. Have they FAQ'ed away his deployment bonus?

Well when the Dark Eldar drop, I will be somewhat sad since the current codex is so fun to play. I really enjoy the Dark Eldar.

Based on the past few codex releases, I'm not really expecting many changes to come through. I am excited about probably being able to buy venoms as fast attacks slots without a unit inside. I'd like to see a trueborn and scourges weapon cost reduction and razorwings changed to fast attack too. Going to expect ending my last tournament with Duke Sliscus this weekend though.

 Dashofpepper wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


Also beaststar with baron is potent, and a component of a lot of Eldar DE tournament lists

That caught on?!?

Good lord, I got so much grief for Baron Sathonyx + Beasts, but the +1 is/was so important to Dark Eldar that I couldn't figure out a better way to field him.

In 6th, they made a number of changes that made it much better. Namely:
beasts changed to 12" move so the unit didnt have to conga line.
Allies were introduced, letting you add farseer jetbikes and allied psykic powers(again from farseer)

Sinful Hero wrote:
I don't see many lists posted with the Baron anymore- and I'm not sure why. Have they FAQ'ed away his deployment bonus?

They changed jink from a 5+ to a 4+ so stealth from baron is unneeded for a 2+ cover save.

 lambsandlions wrote:

Sinful Hero wrote:
I don't see many lists posted with the Baron anymore- and I'm not sure why. Have they FAQ'ed away his deployment bonus?

They changed jink from a 5+ to a 4+ so stealth from baron is unneeded for a 2+ cover save.

Baron in a reaver unit gives us a T4 2+ cover save unit, that can both hit with the bladevanes as it moves over something, and if jetbike characters (allies) are attached, hit pretty good in combat too.

I really want my dark eldar characters to get jetbike options. If nothing else changed, I'd be thrilled.

-Matt

I was mostly wondering if his +1 to go first still worked. The cover save bonus is just gravy.



I mean, why are you not paying a paltry 105 points and a mostly useless HQ slotfor a cover save bonus and better odds to go first?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
I was mostly wondering if his +1 to go first still worked. The cover save bonus is just gravy.



I mean, why are you not paying a paltry 105 points and a mostly useless HQ slotfor a cover save bonus and better odds to go first?

I read the FAQ. It still works. They specifically changed it to be the roll for who goes first instead of the roll for choosing deployment zone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lambsandlions wrote:

Sinful Hero wrote:
I don't see many lists posted with the Baron anymore- and I'm not sure why. Have they FAQ'ed away his deployment bonus?

They changed jink from a 5+ to a 4+ so stealth from baron is unneeded for a 2+ cover save.

How do Reavers get a 2+ Cover save? If I remember correctly, they get a 4+, and Jink would give them a 4+, turbo-boosting (if it still exists) make it a 3+ or something.....how does it get to 2+?

 Dashofpepper wrote:
How do Reavers get a 2+ Cover save? If I remember correctly, they get a 4+, and Jink would give them a 4+, turbo-boosting (if it still exists) make it a 3+ or something.....how does it get to 2+?

Jink is flat 4+, with or without Turbo-boosting, which still very much exists. Reavers have the Skilled Rider USR which grants +1 to their Jink save, so normally they get 3+. Something with Stealth or Shrouding and they get 2+ cover save total.

How does the Phantasm Grenade Launcher work now?

I presume it still grants offensive and defensive grenades, but I keep hearing the phrase "Blind Fire" or something. What's the deal with that? Does it do something other than offensive or defensive grenades?

Also....had my first game of 40k since 2011 today. =D Broke out the DE and spent half the day learning 7th Edition rules.

Will be changing the main page of this thread over the next few days to include new tactica and unit reviews.

Should have just made a new thread. This thread is full of useless old information that will really confuse and drive off people trying to read through this thread for 7th ed tactics.

There already is a new thread-
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/617489.page

I'll do a new thread then. Probably a good idea actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Might as well lock this one mate.